Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Carey on October 11, 2003, 10:10:00 PM
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Karen stated on another thread:
No one would agree to the kind of cutting off thats actually takes place if they understood it from the start.
I think it is funny that you say this. You know why? The reason is, and so you will know, I too am very much against these programs, however, probably 90% or more of the parents that I have spoken with in regard to the limited communication and the length of time that lapsed before they were able to talk to their child, chose to leave their child in the program for much longer than what the "enrollment agreement" stated was the norm. Why did such a high number of these now disgruntle parents go along with it when it became a reality? So as you say "no one would agree to the kind of cutting off thats actually takes place" then why did it take them so long, like months, to say "hey something is not right here."
I agree in a moment of desparation a parent might make a poor decision about the placement of their child in a program, but after the dust settles why do they then not start to see the signs? Why has it taken a lot of these disgruntle parents so long to see what was happening?
We even know of one parent, someone you and I both know, who made trips to Dundee, and yet left her child there for a year, and is now speaking out against them. WHY? Why did it take a year? Why did it take Amberly 6 months, after resigning (a total of 10 -12 if you add her time at Dundee) to speak out against Dundee? Why with what all has been discovered did it take these two people so long to speak out? Were they afraid for themselves? That is the only thing I can figure. Here you have two adults, actually three given Randall, who could have saved a lot of children a lot of pain and suffering much sooner.
I am so tired of adults who now play the blame game and today act as though they are so righteous. Once again, I think it is a save your butt senario, just like the PURE save your butt senario. I question whether any of these individuals motive is that of protecting children.
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Yes Yes Yes I think that they should be held accountable fuck that I know they should be and so what IF and that is a mighty big if 10min after you left the program and you can't call your kid you now know you can't
this is a cop-out a way out of actually raising you child so then maybe later on you can turn around and blame the program and be the victim
when all along the children was the victim
1st by the parent
then by the program
the by the selfish histronic parent getting sympathy for their "victimization by the program"
grow up parents accept your role your the parents
what would you have done in the "good old days" when you couldn't ship your children off everytime you couldn't do it
the only victims here are the kids
the only ones who need help are the parents
the only ones who need a program are the parents
your children are a direct reflection of you if you don't like what you see then it is your problem
who raised them? Does that bother you? Glad you can't send me to treatment concerned parents.Never let your sense of
morals get in the way of
doing what's right
--Isaac Asimov
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Yes...hold the parents accountable. Then other parents will see what can happent if they do not put their childs care and their childs desperation before their own.
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All this is about is you vs. your ex husband Carey.... You really don't give a flying fuck about kids in WWASP or your OWN kids really, you're just all about revenge on your ex... The only reason you flew down to get your kids was because this is all a game with you and your husband. That's horrible, I feel so bad for your kids. You make me sick.
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Melissa, are you a mind reader or a shrink?
Folks, there is no getting around accaountability on the part of the parents. None. Doesn't matter the degree of culpability from one individual to another or even if they ever acknowledge it.
When you get older and start to get over the initial shock of realizing that any one of these new boyfriends might well wind up being your grandchildren's father, you start to take a different view of things.
My heart's dearest wish for the families who get chewed up and spit out by these sadistic cults is that they find a way to patch things up for the sake of the next generation.
I don't even care if anything horrible never happens to the people behind WWASP. I'd be very well satisfied with shipping them all off to a pleasant little resort together where they would not have access to harm any more families.
Haven't we all been hurt enough? I'm tired. I hope ya'll will consider leaving the vengence to the powers that be.
Come to the woods, for here is rest. There is no repose like that of the green deep woods. Here grow the wallflower and the violet. The squirrel will come and sit upon your knee, the logcock will wake you in the morning. Sleep in forgetfulness of all ill. Of all the upness accessible to mortals, there is no upness comparable to the mountains.
-- John Muir
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On 2003-10-12 11:13:00, MelissaR wrote:
"All this is about is you vs. your ex husband Carey.... You really don't give a flying fuck about kids in WWASP or your OWN kids really, you're just all about revenge on your ex... The only reason you flew down to get your kids was because this is all a game with you and your husband. That's horrible, I feel so bad for your kids. You make me sick."
Seems the PUKE ACTIVISTS are breeding hate-mongers faster than you can say WWASPS. I feel sorry for Melissa and all the kids who were and still are being victimized by people on both sides. It's a sad day when children are recruited to spew HATE-FILLED thoughts and feelings and I for one, hope they will heed the kind advice of the founder of this forum who is surely trying her best to encourage tolerance for different points of view.
:sad:
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Thanks for the kind words. I should also note that, but for dumb luck and circumstances, I might well have been on staff if I hadn't split when I did. And the author at thestraights.com was once a program parent and that Richard Bradbury dude who the Semblers are trying to shut up WAS on staff when he woke up and came to himself again.
It's a gray area. The story needs to be told and there's no getting around that this is going to bring on a lot of hurt to different people. Let's all just be as judicious as we can with it. The internet interprets censorship as damage and routes around it.
--John Gilmour
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Karen, I guess you are asking me what I mean when I say parents should be held accountable. It only has one definition that I know when used in the manner it was used.
It means the same thing for parents as it means for the escorts, the consultants and the programs. It applies to all the same. Accountability - required to account for one's conduct.
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[ This Message was edited by: KarenZ on 2003-10-19 12:56 ]
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i for one would put them in jail if they suspeceted or known about abuse taking place where they shipped their kids off to. Their is actually a law on the books that says just that. Also i would like to see the parents pay for the many years of councling it may take to help the kid recover from the program. Also i would love to see the parents sued if they hired kidnappers "escorts". And abused the state laws by sending the kid out of state to avoid the state laws. Thats accountablity for the Parents!!!!
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Now tell me, how shall I be accountable? What is it you would have from me (or anyone) that would satisfy you? Not that I am in any way accountable to you - But still, what would you require?
How you should be held accountable is not up to me. It is up to God for now. I suppose it could be up to a judge and jury at some point, but that too is not up to me.
I don't have all of the answers, I wish I did, but I don't. But I do beleive that the key to stopping all of the madness is to hold the parents accountable for their part in it. I think as long as there are insane parents, easily influenced parents, parents who have the need to control, then there will always be a supply of these programs. How do we stop whats going on, we hold parents accountable. They are the ones that are making the choice. There will always be those out there like Litchfield, who for the might buck, will carry out the service if parents are willing to pay. Like I said in another thread, it is all about supply and demand...if there is no demand...then there will be no supply.
You see, from my perspective - I have been accountable. I have accounted for my thoughts feeling and actions threw out the entire episode.
That is all good! I mean that, sincerely. I did not list everything else you have done (didn't want to take up space) and that is all good too. But stopping WWASP will not stop program abuse. It will not stop parents who are desparate from finding another abusive alternative program.
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That was me!
Let me add this, look at all of those luney-tunes out there right now who are working on "blind trust", don't you think if they thought they could be held accountable "if" their child was being abused, they might want more than just "blind trust" to work off of?
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On 2003-10-13 05:53:00, Carey wrote:
"That was me!
Let me add this, look at all of those luney-tunes out there right now who are working on "blind trust", don't you think if they thought they could be held accountable "if" their child was being abused, they might want more than just "blind trust" to work off of?"
Carey, what do you think about parents who blindly trust their pediatricians and allow their babies to receive dangerous vaccinations that leave them hopelessly autistic?
Just a few years ago, the heretical view was that any mother who would question the conventional wisdom and refuse vaccinations was either a religious nut or a dangerously negligent mother. Now it's starting to come out that these safe and trusted vaccines actually are dangerous and are more likely to seriously harm some children than the diseases we're trying to prevent.
Now, all along the way, for decades, there have been doctors, researchers, pharmaceuticals and parents who are guilty of failure to do due dilligence. We all just trust eachother, right? Blindly. Do what everyone does, right?
Now the medical people and the pharm people just go about their merry way, wouldn't even recognize their victims if they tripped over them panhandling on the street 40 years later. But the parents are still the parents. There's no getting away from it for them. They get to live out their old age reflecting on what might have been if they had been just a bit more skeptical.
They don't need to be punished any more. We just need to let make next generation of parents understand the danger.
One more thing. I don't know if there's anything to the accusations that this is all about getting back at your ex or not. Frankly, I'd understand very well if you're enraged at him and completely unable to understand why he did what he did and how he can possibly hold to notion that it was the right thing. I know parents who, decades later, will still tell their adult child that they'd do it again. Incomprehensible to me. And my own mother's one of them!
However, most of them eventually come around, at least to some degree. Their kids are luckier than the others. I get to see it from both perspectives.
I think some of your critics have a good point when following your reasoning to the next logical step. If your ex is that big a sadistic asshole and/or that negligent in trustng WWASP, then aren't you just as liable for trusting him?
If you get right down to it, damned near everyone is liable, complicit (at least by silence) in this criminal industry. Am I at fault for not speaking out 20 years ago? Maybe. I know I feel a pang of guilt very often when I read some sad story that happened just a couple of years ago or about someone like you and your kids who are living it now. Aren't you mad at me for cowering away and not giving you the heads up?
This could go on forever.
If you want to destroy market demand for these demented little cults, there's one sure way to do it. Make sure the public knows just what they're about. Just the facts, ma'am. Whether you're ready now or able ever to understand it, they do recruite the parents through manipulation and trickery. That only works if the mark doesn't know the scam. So let's just do all we can to get the word out on the scam and let the powers that be deal with whatever retribution might be in order.
What you do speaks so loudly that I cannot hear what you say.
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
American drug war P.O.W.
10/80 - 10/82
Straight South (Sarasota, FL)
Anonymity Anonymous
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Ginger, my argument has nothing to do with my ex, I can assure you of that. No matter how I feel about him and what he did, he is still the father of my children. I hope that one day he will be able to reestablish his relationship with them.
The difference between me and those who attack me is that I am not in this for revenge. I am in this for the teens. Unfortunatly for them, I see them as part of the problem. I know that is why they are trying to discredit me in any way they can. They don't want to look bad based on their own ignorance. I can not help that. Like I said I am not in this for them, I am in this for the children. Look at what they have reverted to over the last few days. They can not argue their case, so they revert to name calling. I think their "desparate" behavior is and was very immature. It really does not bother me, because I am not worried about me, I am worried about the teens. I am an adult and I can take their verbal attacks.
As far as the immunizations thing goes, I don't see the camparison. I think the two situations can not be compared. Yes, doctors can be wrong. Yes, modern medicine and new studies can change the over all view of past opinions. But let us remember that the over all industry is regulated. I do not think the parent who trusted the pediatrician who recommneded the immunization should be held accountable. She was trusting in an individual who had studied medicine. Someone who spent years training. She was trusting a vaccine that had been tested and approved by the FDA. The parents who put kids in programs are trusting uneducated people. The parents who put kids in programs are trusting an unregulated, unproven theory of "behavior modification." The two are not camparable.
Now, had a parent placed their child in a program and it was based on the referal of a psychiatrist, psychologist or judge, then I don't think the parent should be held accountable. But I do think the professional who did the refering should be.
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Ok, first I have to tell you that I've been peeking at IP addresses again. The best I can do is make an educated guess, of course. But I'm usually pretty close to the mark. Not all of the people who have been saying awful things about you in these forums are on the dishing end of any lawsuit.
Some possibly are and I think they've taken offense and been frightened by your position that they all belong in prison or something. I don't think they do. And I don't think you'll get very far storming the whole of TOUGHLOVEdome with threats and accusations. It may surprise you to find out that some of these people's mos solid supporters and defenders are the kids who they put into these programs and are now defending.
"Now, had a parent placed their child in a program and it was based on the referal of a psychiatrist, psychologist or judge, then I don't think the parent should be held accountable. But I do think the professional who did the refering should be."
Carey, that's how it usually happens. Not only is TC an accepted treatment throughout officialdome, there's actually been proposed legislation (don't know if it passed) to make TC the only federally funded type of treatment for teen drug use.
It's not that there's any lack of laws governing these places. They do things every day that are illegal. It's just like lynching in the Old South; there's a lack of will to investigate and prosecute. After all, these are all dangerous, hostile, caniving and manipulative teenagers, right? The officials, for the most part, take the position that they get what they deserve and/or they're lying about it.
Government operates best when it allows all messengers to offer their views, allowing the American people to decide which take root and which wither away.
--Harold Furchtgott-Roth, member of the Federal Communications Commission
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Carey, that's how it usually happens. Not only is TC an accepted treatment throughout officialdome, there's actually been proposed legislation (don't know if it passed) to make TC the only federally funded type of treatment for teen drug use.
Who is "TC"?
I was addressing this question:
Carey, what do you think about parents who blindly trust their pediatricians and allow their babies to receive dangerous vaccinations that leave them hopelessly autistic?
As far as the immunizations thing goes, I don't see the camparison. I think the two situations can not be compared. Yes, doctors can be wrong. Yes, modern medicine and new studies can change the over all view of past opinions. But let us remember that the over all industry is regulated. I do not think the parent who trusted the pediatrician who recommneded the immunization should be held accountable. She was trusting in an individual who had studied medicine. Someone who spent years training. She was trusting a vaccine that had been tested and approved by the FDA. The parents who put kids in programs are trusting uneducated people. The parents who put kids in programs are trusting an unregulated, unproven theory of "behavior modification." The two are not camparable.
Now, had a parent placed their child in a program and it was based on the referal of a psychiatrist, psychologist or judge, then I don't think the parent should be held accountable. But I do think the professional who did the refering should be.
Your response to the above was:
Carey, that's how it usually happens. Not only is TC an accepted treatment throughout officialdome, there's actually been proposed legislation (don't know if it passed) to make TC the only federally funded type of treatment for teen drug use.
It's not that there's any lack of laws governing these places. They do things every day that are illegal. It's just like lynching in the Old South; there's a lack of will to investigate and prosecute. After all, these are all dangerous, hostile, caniving and manipulative teenagers, right? The officials, for the most part, take the position that they get what they deserve and/or they're lying about it.
I say, then hold the officials accountable, too.
I would like to know the number of parents who placed their kids in one of the "programs" sought professional guidance. I mean professional, not the Sue Scheff kind of professional, I mean a psychologist, psychiatrist or judge, a real professional not some self appointed guru. I would like to know how many of these who sought a professional in which the professional recommended a WWASP program.
Ok, first I have to tell you that I've been peeking at IP addresses again. The best I can do is make an educated guess, of course. But I'm usually pretty close to the mark. Not all of the people who have been saying awful things about you in these forums are on the dishing end of any lawsuit.
I don't know how you can tell that from an IP address, unless of course you know all of those who are particpants in the law suit and their specific IP address. I don't doubt that some are kids or that some are WWASP supporters, but I do believe the majority are the trekers. I can't prove it, but I don't need to. I am not trying to take them to court. I just know from past experience and private emails that their behavior is consistant.
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On 2003-10-13 16:32:00, Carey wrote:
"Carey, that's how it usually happens. Not only is TC an accepted treatment throughout officialdome, there's actually been proposed legislation (don't know if it passed) to make TC the only federally funded type of treatment for teen drug use.
Who is "TC"?
Therapeutic Community. It's the basic method deveopled by Synanon Church sometime before they took to sending their biker thug crews out to beat critics and place poisonous snakes in the mailboxes of lawyers who represented them. It's the same basic method used in WWASP programs, which derive from CEDU which was founded by a Synanon person. Same as Seed, Straight, Kids, AARC and that whole line, which derive from Daytop, we think. Accross the board, wherever the Synanon method is used, we hear from graduates and splitees about all kinds of bad outcomes. But there are no serious, peer reviewed studies to show one way or another. It's an article of faith among industry insiders and regulators that these methods "work".
Well, they do "work". They generate zealot supporters, glowing testimonials and lots and lots of cash.
It's not that there's any lack of laws governing these places. They do things every day that are illegal. It's just like lynching in the Old South; there's a lack of will to investigate and prosecute. After all, these are all dangerous, hostile, caniving and manipulative teenagers, right? The officials, for the most part, take the position that they get what they deserve and/or they're lying about it.
I say, then hold the officials accountable, too.
Oh, I heartily agree! I know, for example, that a couple of people have successfully shut down WWASP, Straight and Kids programs by threatening or actually suing the state regulators. As you note, though, this still doesn't eliminate demand. But it helps.
I would like to know the number of parents who placed their kids in one of the "programs" sought professional guidance. I mean professional, not the Sue Scheff kind of professional, I mean a psychologist, psychiatrist or judge, a real professional not some self appointed guru. I would like to know how many of these who sought a professional in which the professional recommended a WWASP program.
You mean like the ones at Brightway Adolescent Hospital in St. George, Utah? Or check out the Nightline video that I keep archived in the videos section of my site. http://fornits.com/anonanon/video/ (http://fornits.com/anonanon/video/)
Believe me, Carey, appeal to authority is one of their best tricks. You go into the office of SAFE and you'll probably still find various endorsements on the wall from the governor (Jeb Bush, who, with his wife and state drug czar, Jim McDonough, retain seats on the board of advisors of Drug Free America Foundation).
Want to know how bad it gets? Two years ago, a bunch of program survivors decided to go and picket SAFE on the night of one of their gala fundraising events. First, it was a very sad event that profoundly effected the adult survivors in attendence. You couldn't help but feel sorry for the guy who donated his classic car for raffle to keep his kid in the program and keep the doors open after the former director absconded with a bunch of money. But what happened next was too much for most of us.
When the kids were filing out of the back of the building to go to their host homes at night, one of them decided to make a break for it and try for the picket line. Just as we all remember the scene, the other kids chased him down, tackled him and stuffed him, kicking and screaming into the back of a car. My friends stood in the road to block their way while calling 911 and describing the scene. Some time later, the police arrived on a tresspass complaint made by the program people. They refused (just plain out refused) to even take a report on the beating and kidnapping. So a couple of these folks went back the next day and just refused to go away till a sherrif's officer took a signed statement. As far as we can tell, no real investigation ever ensued. They told us the kid was probably court ordered, but refused to go and give him the option of returning to jail. They told us they couldn't do anything because we didn't know the identity of the kid, to which we responded "Well, then how do you know he's court ordered"?
Nothing has changed, really.
On a prior visit, we saw a car with the Covenant House logo on the door, either delivering or picking a kid up there. You know, Covenant House? The 9 line for runaways that promises "If you're on the street and alone and afraid, Dial 1-800 then keep dialing 9", that Covenant House?
Forget about the 1987 or whatever epoch date for WWASP as a new corporate entity. These folks have got a LOT of "the authorities" convinced over the years.
No doubt, the "authorities" carry a large degree of culpability.
I don't know how you can tell that from an IP address, unless of course you know all of those who are particpants in the law suit and their specific IP address.
Because I can put together all the messages posted by a particular IP or by a net mask, which narrows it down to a provider, usually. It's not exact science. But it's sort of a dead givaway when someone posts both anonymous and by a username from the same IP or gives detail or opinion in one post that contradicts that given in other posts. You'd be surprised (or not) how often people post in response to their own posts, pretending to be someone else piling on in agreement or even attacking their own post. The only reason for doing this that makes sense to me is to draw attention away from more important issues.
And, while we're on the topic, I hope all readers understand that this is not only possible, but real easy to do. Before you get too awfully upset over anything posted to these forums, remind yourself that you don't even know for sure who's saying what or what their motive.
That's about all I can say on the topic. Sometimes people post anon because they've got something important to say and they don't trust me (the the total stranger w/ access to the server logs) enough to register. I don't want to violate that trust, so I can't really say who I think it is acting as provocateur here. Just bear in mind, please, that it does happen quite often.
I don't doubt that some are kids or that some are WWASP supporters, but I do believe the majority are the trekers. I can't prove it, but I don't need to. I am not trying to take them to court. I just know from past experience and private emails that their behavior is consistant. "
Trekers? I've seen the term, but not quite sure what it means.
When I started as a federal narcotics agent, the budget that we were working with, it was less than $5 million a year, and there was only 125 agents for the entire world to work the narcotic trade that we were fighting in those days. Times have changed. The gluttony has grown.
--Nick Navarro, former Broward, FL Sherrif
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
American drug war P.O.W.
10/80 - 10/82
Straight South (Sarasota, FL)
Anonymity Anonymous
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Carey,
I'm going to play devil's advocate here to hopefully make a point.
You said:
But let us remember that the over all industry is regulated. I do not think the parent who trusted the pediatrician who recommneded the immunization should be held accountable. She was trusting in an individual who had studied medicine. Someone who spent years training. She was trusting a vaccine that had been tested and approved by the FDA. The parents who put kids in programs are trusting uneducated people. The parents who put kids in programs are trusting an unregulated, unproven theory of "behavior modification." The two are not camparable.
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But, YES they are exactly the same.
There is just as much, if not more, information available to the public on the harm of immunizations. How do I know? I chose not to immunize my children and I can tell you, I did a hell of a lot of research, attended lectures, consulted with alternative professionals, etc. And I am baffled at how many parents choose to follow the herd. Same reason parents incarcerate their kids, or one reason, it's easier than engaging. Thinking. Taking responsibility for making your own choices after reviewing everything you can get your hands on.
Did you immunize your kids? If so, would it seem justified to you, if I criticized you and said you should go to jail because you didn't avail yourself to the warnings that are readily available to the public, but blindly trusted your pediatrian to make all the decisions about your children, therefore possibily endangering the health and well being of your child. I could call you a dumb fuck for blindly believing. Does that sit well with you? BTW, many pediatrians don't immunize their own children, but don't hesitate to shoot up their clients, it's their bread and butter. If you had ever required your "professional" MD to sign a statement that s/he would take responsibility if the immunization harmed your child in any way, your kids wouldn't be immunized either. They all know they're dangerous. Hell your respected FDA banned mercury in animal vaccines l-o-n-g before human vaccines- which just recently happened.
And the same is true with psych meds. Refuse to put your kid on Ritalin/Adderall and CPS can take your kids and charge you with medical neglect or worse. FYI, no longer in TX thanks to some wonderful advocates in Austin. No longer can a school principal or teacher (who are NOT so-called psych professionals) mention drugs to a parent. And TX parents no longer have to fear the wrath of CPS. That's how change happens. It's slow. Too slow for me too sometimes. There is no easy answer or solution.
Ginger's analogy is exactly the same. Parents fuck up everyday. All doing the only thing they can with the information and personality they have. Program parents are deceived and lied to and manipulated and conned. Some become aware of it, others don't, for any number of reasons.
Who do you think is going to take action against these program parents??? Who do you HOPE will take action against these parents??? Because that is what your continual arguement sounds like- trying to convince someone who has the power to do so. You have that power to sue atlest one of "those" parents. Start writing letters to lawyers and politicians. Ask them who would have the power and authority to make these parents accountable. See how they answer.
And NO, it is not true that staff at all programs are NOT trained, educated or professional. Where my son was incarcerated everyone was educated and "professional" except the service staff.... and they pulled much of the same shit WWASP does, with the exception that they were a little sleezer..or clever, whichever it might be, about keeping their shit covered up. "Professional" all too often just means they'll be able to screw you in a worse way...and leave your head spinning in the process. Try fighting those "professionals" - who the courts respect- when they have your child in their custody and the child's father employs them to win a court battle. They have no integrity, but when their livlihood is on the line they are totally unscrupulous, and the one's I was envolved with stooped to perjury. And the stronger you advocate for your child, the more deranged they attempt to make you appear. There are some very sick "professionals" out there. The most suicides among "professionals" are psychiatrists. Think about it. If you put your trust in state regulators and "professionals" to guard over teens in programs, you're just as bad off as the parents trusting program staff, imho.
There ain't no Daddy or Lone Ranger or Superman or god that's going to come in and right all the wrongs. We are doing that, a little bit at a time. Your dynamite approach is understandable, but it is not productive. NO ONE is going to hold parents accountable except one individual who takes issue with another particular parent/ professional.
You can't legislate love or intellegence or caring. We live in a culture that puts money before life. Until that changes, this and all the other unbelievable human idiocies will continue.
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Just curious, were your kids home schooled? Everywhere that I have lived they will not let your children attend school without immunizations. We have to bring in the medical card and everything.
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School and State personel will lie to you, as they did to my sister. You have to know the law. And, you might be required to have a religous exemption in your state. Do an internet search for a "church" with beliefs that you can live with, which opposes immunizations. Join and ask for a letter to exempt your children. There are some anti-immunization websites too, but I don't have a URL for you, past that phase of my/their life.
And yes, my sons were homeschooled until they began Montessori, which didn't require immunizations. I also had a letter from the "Church of the Golden Rule"- my friend was the founder. I used it once when my oldest attended public school as a brief experiment. Turns out...he was more interested in scamming ice cream from peers than actually attending public school. Yeh, I could've been less strict with diet.
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Deborah Writes (as excerpted)
You can't legislate love or intellegence or caring. We live in a culture that puts money before life. Until that changes, this and all the other unbelievable human idiocies will continue.
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Yep, that's the bottom line allright.
:cry2:
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In some places, you don't even have to avow any particular religion or rejection of modern medicine or anything like that. You just state that, based on your religion or a conviction similar to religion that you oppose divulging private medical information.
Most of the functionaries are not technically lying when they tell you they have authority they don't have. They haven't studied law. They were trained by their co-workers. They actually believe they have all the authority they say they do.
Everyone, as a matter of civic duty, should trott on down to the library or spend time on the net researching just what the laws are that pertain to anything of interest to you. (if you have an interest, they've got half a dozen laws or more, guaranteed!) If you know you're right and they challenge you, don't get mad or be intimidated. Thank them for the corespondence or call and ask them politely to identify the law that requires whatever they're demanding. This is especially fun with the little power freak tin god types. The more pleasant and poised you are, the more bent out of shape they get.
Oh, and ALWAYS take notes and follow up verbal conversations with written letters.
"I predict, Sir, that you will die either by hanging or of some vile disease."
"That all depends, sir, upon whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."
--Disraeli to Gladstone
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its ironic that immunizations were brought up here I fear them so much I fear not giving them and giving them
and my one, the one I adore is a marine srgt. airman enough said I guess on the scary needles right now I feel like cryingG: "If we do happen to step on a mine, Sir, what do we do?"
EB: "Normal procedure, Lieutenant, is to jump 200 feet in the air and scatter oneself over a wide area."
-- Somewhere in No Man's Land, BA4
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now Ginger how in the hell did that quote come up after I said that particular thing, that is just strange as fucking hell and there is no way around it
God I hate the militaryThe notion that a radical is one who hates his country is naive and usually idiotic. He is, more likely, one who likes his country more than the rest of us, and is thus more disturbed than the rest of us when he sees it debauched. He is not a bad citizen turning to crime; he is a good citizen driven to despair.
--H.L. Mencken
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It's just spooky sometimes. But I have a theory. Some of the quotes in the database are from my dad, who was known by the nickname "Crazy Mac". If anyone had the power to hang around years after death and the personality to use said power just to play pranks, that would be him. :wink:
Don't be scared of the vaccination issue. Read up on it. Then you'll know better what to do (or not) and you won't worry so much about it.
Legalizing drugs is far from a panacea for all the distress caused by drugs, but it will eliminate most of the profit and corruption from the drug trade.
--Nobel laureate, Gary S. Becker
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Look what just happened:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... um=9#23178 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=3261&forum=9#23178)
Now, had I thought of that particular quote and remembered it was there, I might have picked it out and edited it into that particular message. But I swear I didn't. It just popped up there. Thanks Dad!! :wave:
A little government and a little luck are necessary in life, but only a fool trust either of them
P.J. O'Rourke
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On 2003-10-13 16:32:00, Carey wrote:
I would like to know the number of parents who placed their kids in one of the "programs" sought professional guidance. I mean professional, not the Sue Scheff kind of professional, I mean a psychologist, psychiatrist or judge, a real professional not some self appointed guru. I would like to know how many of these who sought a professional in which the professional recommended a WWASP program.
Carey, this thread has made me think about events leading up to my decision to send my child to TB. In the context of some of the recent posts by Ginger, Deborah and others regarding the "politics" of treatment I now in hindsight see things much more clearly. However, I am not trying to make anyone else accountable for my decision.
In the midst of the chaos with my sons, I had police officers tell me "we can't be coming over here all the time. You are the parent, you need to get this under control." The school counselor said "you gotta get this thing under control." The hospital social worker and the psychiatrist that saw my child said he needed in-patient drug rehab so we sent him to one. After 3 days he walked away from rehab. In talking with the counselor there, he told me they would not allow my son to come back because what he really needed was behavior modification. After several weeks the police found my son and once again he was hospitalized. In the time he was a runaway I found wwasp. I shared the wwasp info with our family counselor, the school counselor, and the hospital social worker who shared it with the psychiatrist at the hospital. They all responded positively and the hospital even contacted ASI so they would have info to share with other parents. And of course, "Dr." Chappuis' evaluation stated that TB was an appropriate placement.
My purpose in sharing this is not to blame but to point out how many of us think "professionals" or people who see these situations all the time are equipped to give us advice when they don't even know anything about what they are recommending.
Changing the subject here, I want to make a statement about this forum. I have learned so much and have really been challenged by you all. So many of my beliefs and opinions have altered by the exchanges of thought and information that occurs. This forum has helped me understand my son; his actions, thoughts, behaviors. It has helped me heal our relationship. It has helped me understand myself and where some of my actions, thoughts, behaviors come from. When I first stumbled in here it was like driving by an accident. I didn't want to see it but I couldn't look away. Eventually, I could read, think, and learn without it being all about me and my regrets. In viewing some of the recent posts on this forum I am concerned that other questioning parents are coming here and concluding (without thinking or learning anything) that we are proof that they have made the proper decision in sending their child away. I am not suggesting censoring anyone, but I am suggesting self-restraint. I have my personal opinions, too but I sincerely hope we can state them without personal and repetitive attacks.
Judy
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Judy, thank you SO much for sharing your experience!
I know it takes some dedicated time and thought to sort this stuff out. And I know it's all very unpleasant; like you say, it is a car wreck. It's complicated and ugly and the stakes are so high.
I apologize if I lost my composure and acted ugly. When I see people acting in that same old angry mob way, it does touch a raw nerve with me; especially people who ought to know better! That's what I see in PURE. It's the same old 'higher purpose' slight of mind trick. Demonize all critics, scapegoat some external group and, before you know it, you've got a cause so high and holy as to justify all kinds of bad behavior.
About the authorities:
Back a few years ago, a tv journalist did a really good investigative piece on one of the Straight follow on programs. In it, a representative from an anti-drug coalition in Miami expressed shock and outrage over what he saw on tape and promised to try and start an investigation.
Well I was very encouraged by that and so I called him up a couple of weeks after the piece aired to see how the investigation was going. It wasn't. Frankly, he didn't want to talk to me. So, smelling rat, I looked around their website, followed a few links and found the number for their referal office for So. Florida and asked them if SAFE, Orlando (aka ACE recovery, aka Anchor Foundation) was on their approved referal list. Of course, it was. They're licensed and certified, aren't they? Why, they're even endoursed by the Governor, his wife and the state drug czar, Jim McDonough.
So I asked them if they knew about Jim Gilliland's recent appearance on the local tv news and his take on SAFE. That's when I remembered that these referal lines are usually answered by law enforcement agencies or by private phone centers contracted by law enforcement and wished I'd thought to hit *67 before making the all. They do NOT take well to uppity civilians[sic] questioning their authoritol!
I, for one, don't blame you for taking the advice given you. I blame the 'authorities' for being so arrogant as to pretend to know what they're talking about and never even caring about the results of their bad advice. Bureaucracy at it's finest, eh? Ever read Snitch Culture? It's on my wish list.
Can you imagine trying to find an employed professional in a place like Utah who will even dare look too closely at WWASP?
I like your reasoning in your plea for self restraint. I don't think parents need to be held accountable so much as they need to take more responsibility themselves and their kids and not just put it all off on the presumed experts. Sometimes kids come into trouble because they have issues they need to figure out. But, often enough, kids come into trouble because the adults in charge just seem to really like shooting at their feet and watching them dance.
"Look! There he goes again getting angry and defiant! I told you the kid has trouble!" But isn't it sort of healthy and natural, even admirable, to respond with anger to disrespect and abuse?
I'm glad you're working things out with your son. I'm encouraged very much by your willingness to keep on looking and thinking and trying to understand. That's what it takes, ma'am. If everyone were as responsible and dedicated a mother as you aparently are, there would be no market for these kinds of programs.
One more thing for anyone who wants to take a shot at this. Carey asked a good question before this thread broke down into a full on brawl. How do you find yourself going along with the program for months and (sometimes) years? I could answer based on my experience and observation w/ the program and in other areas in life. For example, at the age of damned near 40, I'm finally starting to learn how to not let my customers sucker me into a lot of free service. Nowhere near as important as what we're talking about here, and I'm not suggesting that it is. But it's a similar psyche/social dynamic at work, I think.
You care to take a shot at that one now that the dust seems to have settled some?
Still, if you will not fight for the right when you can easily win without bloodshed; if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.
--Winston Churchill
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
American drug war P.O.W.
10/80 - 10/82
Straight South (Sarasota, FL)
Anonymity Anonymous
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so what ever happened to carey? She's being awfully quiet these days? :rofl:
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What about the Trekkers? PURE? Seems to me they've been awfully quiet these days, too.
:rofl:
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On 2003-10-11 19:10:00, Carey wrote:
"Karen stated on another thread:
No one would agree to the kind of cutting off thats actually takes place if they understood it from the start.
I think it is funny that you say this. You know why? The reason is, and so you will know, I too am very much against these programs, however, probably 90% or more of the parents that I have spoken with in regard to the limited communication and the length of time that lapsed before they were able to talk to their child, chose to leave their child in the program for much longer than what the "enrollment agreement" stated was the norm. Why did such a high number of these now disgruntle parents go along with it when it became a reality? So as you say "no one would agree to the kind of cutting off thats actually takes place" then why did it take them so long, like months, to say "hey something is not right here."
I agree in a moment of desparation a parent might make a poor decision about the placement of their child in a program, but after the dust settles why do they then not start to see the signs? Why has it taken a lot of these disgruntle parents so long to see what was happening?
We even know of one parent, someone you and I both know, who made trips to Dundee, and yet left her child there for a year, and is now speaking out against them. WHY? Why did it take a year? Why did it take Amberly 6 months, after resigning (a total of 10 -12 if you add her time at Dundee) to speak out against Dundee? Why with what all has been discovered did it take these two people so long to speak out? Were they afraid for themselves? That is the only thing I can figure. Here you have two adults, actually three given Randall, who could have saved a lot of children a lot of pain and suffering much sooner.
I am so tired of adults who now play the blame game and today act as though they are so righteous. Once again, I think it is a save your butt senario, just like the PURE save your butt senario. I question whether any of these individuals motive is that of protecting children."
What I don't understand is why these parents are so trusting in the first place. Do they not understand the inherent risk in sending their children out of the country?
:???:
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that is exactly what I do not understand, I cannot imagine buying into that con.
More likely I would by a cabin in the woods and do my own wilderness therapy. Make soap sing songs homeschool. Might be just as horrible(they might think) but I am there every step of the way....it does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate,
tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds..
--Samuel Adams
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It really doesn't surprise me so much any more. It just frightens me. Look at what's happening elsewhere in our society and it just fits.
Good ol'e Rush Limbaugh. It seems asif his fans are so completely ignorant about the high holy causes he advocates. They really believe him and his lawyer when they say everybody's picking on him. They honestly believe that the other million or so people who get caught up in the drug war every year are some kind of evil monsters right out of a comic book or something, not real nice people like good ol'e Rush. They have NO clue what actually happens to people when some idiot calls up the 1-800-BEA-SNITch hotline and starts a prosecution rolling.
Look at what's happening in Goose Creek, SC. At the same time in the same newspapers and in the same tv news broadcast, we hear of police 'accidentally' killing unarmed suspects, often enough children, sometimes even friendly dogs, just about every week or two. In the past 4,000 years that we know of, no one has ever died from smoking or eating cannabis. And yet we see school and police officials and even some students and parents who think it makes perfect sense to send a SWAT team w/ weapons drawn into a crowded school hallway to protect the children from the dangers of Cannabis?????
Hell, our military is bombing the shit out of Iraq right now because a good many Americans have bought into the fiction that Iraq or Sadam had something to do with the WTC attack!
No, it doesn't surprise me a bit that parents, schoolpeople and professional shrinks buy into these programs' sales pitch. It frightens me. I don't hate these people, I just want more people to start paying closer attention and asking questions.
You know, too many weirdos out there. At least with you people I know WHY you are weird!!!
Kady
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It does no good to ask questions, if the reply you get is a lie. And if you get the same reply from a dozen different people, it seems likely to be true. We here all know this is not Always the case. But Joe and Jane Average are reeled right in. This is why I maintain it is so importiant to explain the effect of LGAT seminairs; and how and why you have the legions of Faithful.
I feel this alone explains how and why these programs are able to prosper and continue.
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Yeh, and did you hear about this one?
http://www.click10.com/news/2679267/detail.html (http://www.click10.com/news/2679267/detail.html)
Caught one of the wack, right-wing talk show hosts ranting on about it last night on my way to Toys R Us. Fah La La La La. One of his deranged callers explained that he was an ex drug addict and could attest to the fact that PCP would make one "crazy" and that the cop, "knowing the guy was on PCP, should have shot him in the head", rather than risk his own safety. Then justified, that given the combination of drugs the victim had taken- he would have died that night anyway.
Dear lord, where have we heard this BS before?
Programs blame restraint deaths on Excited Delirium- Victim "causes their own death" by becoming overly distressed about being restrained. Convenient. Let's the 2 or 3 large adults doing the restraining off the hook. Doesn't matter that they cut off the victim's supply of oxygen.
In the above case, the victim's "struggle with police" caused his death, complicated by his "drug use" of course. IF he hadn't "struggled" he would still be alive.
Give me an F-in break. This is 2003 on planet Earth for god's sake. Technology abounds. Fierce animals in the wild are treated more humanely than "deviants".
Rarely is "reasoning" the authority's MO- provoking is probably more common- but given that the victim is beyond reasoning, the most humane thing to do, (and what I would prefer if it was MY loved one resisting) is shoot him/her with a tranquilizer dart. Five seconds and they'd be flat out on the ground. There are also pressure points that will bring one to the ground immediately. There are even nets that can be shot from special guns to contain the subject- saw high school students using them to catch animals they would return to the wild. Point being- Bullets, restraint, and "struggle" (beating?) are not the only options.
There is no excuse to allow this "venting of pent up rage" by the "authorities". Police should not be allowed to carry anything but tranquiler darts. There are too many that go into professions of authority in order to perpetrate violence themselves.
Bowling For Columbine- Michael Moore's film- showed beyond a shadow of doubt that this is a country full of fearful, angry, rage-filled people who jump at the opportunity to vent all their seething rage on every "victim" that crosses their path. Their motto, "I loves my gun".
Where does the buck stop? The violence perpetrated by the "authorities" is no more justified than that of the "victim". There are some that would like us to believe otherwise and they would also choose that we continue to believe that "righteous" violence is justified- a necessary evil; because they need an outlet for their own rage (fear)... otherwise, they might explode and land in jail, or dead, themselves.
There is no argument that can justify the killing of a 350# druggie passed out on the lawn of a restaurant or the killing of a "defiant teen" who has the life squeezed out of him by three adult staff?
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::bandit:: :smokin:
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Check out http://tribweb.com/ (http://tribweb.com/) and search on the name liberman. The print edition of the one headlined "Girl blaims burns, beatings by mother" is much longer than the online version. The last paragraph goes like this:
"[Liberman] told us she adopted the children because they had a drug abusive mother," said a neighbor, Lori Hanechak, adding she was shocked because there was no prior sign of child abuse and that Liberman appeared to be a very loving, caring parent.
It's really and truely not JUST the troubled parent industry that's the problem. It's the fact and the reasons why there's a market demand for professionally administered child abuse.
May the fleas of one thousand llamas infest your armpits
--One ticked off sysadmin
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I'm in complete agreement that parent's need to take responsibility.
I also agree that without those parents there is no market for these programs to exist.
I've heard girls talking about getting raped by their fathers... they're the slut... they're a druggie. What kind of insanity is that? That is exactly the place to keep the daughter you've been raping locked away with people in control who are telling her it's her fault. Let her take the responsibility...
Sure that is an extreme example...
What I'm curious to know is how many children placed are already abused emotionally or physically or sexually by the parents who signed them in?
How many parents feed off of someone telling them that all the problems are the kids fault, letting them off the hook.
How many parents might not even see much wrong with abuse if they are already abusing their own kid and saying "they deserved it".? Doesn't seem so hard for me to see them believing that their child must have deserved what they were getting in the program.
I don't know if every place is like this, but I know a good number were.
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YOU CAN CALL THE KIDS THE VICTIMS ALL YOU WANT, AND IN SOME CASES IN CERTAIN SCENARIOS THEY ARE. YOU ARE NEGLECTING TO SEE, HOWEVER, THAT THEY ENDED UP IN A FACILITY SUCH AS THIS FOR A REASON. IF YOU LIKE THE BLAME GAME AS U CALL IT (I REMEMBER THAT TERM VERY WELL) THEN SHOOT AN EYEBALL OVER IN THE KIDS DIRECTION FIRST, LETS NOT FORGET THAT WE 'STUDENTS' GOT THE BALL ROLLING IN THE FIRST PLACE.
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Oh, go fuck yourself already. I sincerely hope that your kids stab you to death in your sleep, you idiot. You sure would deserve it, fucker...
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Please stop shouting, Anon. (caps lock) It's not that we're having trouble understanding or remembering your rant. It's just that we're not buying it. And we probably won't, even if you develop a more sophisticated approach and learn how to use font sizes and colors or even animation w/ sound.
You see, we were the kids in question 20 years ago. Now we're the grown ups. Most of us have teenage or older kids ourselves. Some of us are even grandparents already. We've seen, heard and lived all sides of the argument from several different perspectives.
Here's what it comes down to, really. Lots of people are freaked out and terrified by the way their teenaged kids go about inventing an adult identity, seperate from their parents. Some few respond by trying to prevent it at any and all costs. Others use different approaches.
It has always been thus down through the ages. Read Romeo and Juliette or the parable of the prodigal son or any of a number of Greek tragedies. Understand that these are timeless stories because these things actually happen to real live people every day.
100% of the responsibility for sending kids into these private prisons rests w/ the people who sign the contracts (those who do so while not under duress, anyway) and who pay for the 'service'. No one else "does the necessary things" to inter these kids in these gulags. If it were the kids who brought this on themselves, then all kids who deviate from their parents' wishes would be in a private prison. Obviously not, as no more than about 5k or so kids are in them at any given time.
According to the US census, there were 20,219,890 kids age 15 - 19 in the US in 2000. Even leaving out the 12 - 14 year olds (and younger) that's still only about 2.5% of the total population for this age group.
We know already that the "signs" of ______ (state your favorite imagined behavioral problem or ODD if you can't think of anything more specific) used to convince gullible parents that their kid is carrying on a secret double existance as a bank robbing heroin addict are just a boiler-plate catch-all for normal adolescent behavior. So the argument that these are only the worst of the worst doesn't really cut the mustard w/ those of us who've been there.
The fact is that, out of all the parents in the US who go through the white knuckle ride that raising kids sometimes is, only a very small number of them find it necessary to send their kids off to a private prison. All the rest do something else, as it has been down through the ages.
Bottom line, it wasn't your fault, kid. Your bone-headed parents, well intentioned and devoted as they surely are, are the ones who "did the necessary things" to get you locked up.
I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much
liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.
--Thomas Jefferson, 1791, in a letter to Archibald Stuart
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On 2004-02-16 17:02:00, Anonymous wrote:
"YOU CAN CALL THE KIDS THE VICTIMS ALL YOU WANT, AND IN SOME CASES IN CERTAIN SCENARIOS THEY ARE.
So first, lets get out into the open...... You admit that there are abuses, and that the potential for abuse exists!
That is at least a step in the right direction.
On 2004-02-16 17:02:00, Anonymous wrote:
YOU ARE NEGLECTING TO SEE, HOWEVER, THAT THEY ENDED UP IN A FACILITY SUCH AS THIS FOR A REASON. IF YOU LIKE THE BLAME GAME AS U CALL IT (I REMEMBER THAT TERM VERY WELL) THEN SHOOT AN EYEBALL OVER IN THE KIDS DIRECTION FIRST, LETS NOT FORGET THAT WE 'STUDENTS' GOT THE BALL ROLLING IN THE FIRST PLACE. "
So, what you are saying, Here is that Parent who do not take responsibility for their LACK of action, which was basically created by shoving Disney down their kids throat and expecting them to act appropriately, without first taking th time to teach them so. In many cases where they just don't have the time because they are busy working to support _their_ lifestyle, and in others because the didn't want the fuckin kid in the first place. Are exasperated, and push the problems off onto someone else, with blatant disregard of what the child _really_ needs, which in most cases was the lost love and or attention that they NEEDED and DESERVED.
Once in these places, which have the increasing potential of abuse, because they are full of children, whom many don't have any REAL problems other then the normal teenage rebellion that we all go through, who do not have any self respect or respect for others as they were taught by ACTION, in turn treat others as they had been treated. All with the full blessing of "counselors" ( I use this term lightly).
It sounds to me Anon, that you are pissed off at facing the reality that you did not take responsibility for you child, and showed them the way, or refused to see what they really needed, and stuck them in a program that they now resent you even MORE for.
It's either that or you are a recent graduate who's head is still reeling and feel that everything that is wrong with your life is all upon you, and that your parent's responsibility in the matter is non-existent.
Lets remember, that everything starts in the home. It starts at the first day they the child was brought into this world and with a loving family, never ends. A tight stranglehold is rarely ever the answer, and usually only leads to exasperation.
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On 2004-02-16 17:02:00, Anonymous wrote:
"YOU CAN CALL THE KIDS THE VICTIMS ALL YOU WANT, AND IN SOME CASES IN CERTAIN SCENARIOS THEY ARE. YOU ARE NEGLECTING TO SEE, HOWEVER, THAT THEY ENDED UP IN A FACILITY SUCH AS THIS FOR A REASON. IF YOU LIKE THE BLAME GAME AS U CALL IT (I REMEMBER THAT TERM VERY WELL) THEN SHOOT AN EYEBALL OVER IN THE KIDS DIRECTION FIRST, LETS NOT FORGET THAT WE 'STUDENTS' GOT THE BALL ROLLING IN THE FIRST PLACE. "
Wow. Something must have pushed your buttons. Perhaps you were one of those parents mentioned in the preceeding post? Perhaps you should shoot your eyeball right into the mirror my friend. Would you like these kids to also take responsibility for the abuse they received? There is no excuse or exception for the way kids are treated, no matter how big a junkie, or how chemically insane, or how doped up or burnt out.
And more of a reason they should have received "real" help from "real" professionals!
If I'm mistaken and you are a "student", perhaps you can tell me how your "getting the ball rolling in the first place" has anything to do with what someone else did or did not do to become a "student." Perhaps you are still stuck in believing that you deserve to be mistreated as well and you continue to believe what they told you. I will tell you that I did not deserve to be beaten, bruised, spit on, humiliated, and exposed to a great deal of emotional abuse. If you continue to feel you deserved it I am sad for you.
Certainly there were kids who were drug addicted, abusing alcohol, suicidal, or effected by mental illness, perhaps in dire need of some sort of treatment. I don't believe anyone is debating that here. Unfortunately, these individuals did not get the treatment they so desperately needed. I can speak personally for myself that I was not one of them. There were countless children who never drugged or drank a drop. Tell me, why were they there? I don't think the discussion is about who needed treatment. It is more about the treatment they didn't get and the abuse they certainly got.
Yes. The reason. That is exactly what I'm trying to figure out. What is the reason that these parents would accept no contact with their child for months, years? Why would a parent accept not seeing their child except from a distance across a crowded room? Why would a parent not be extremely concerned that their child was not in school, not receiving an education, for years? Why did red flags not go off when the promised amount of time the child would be away from home dragged on into endless years? Why did these parents not feel alarmed at wounds, broken bones and bruises on their children? Because parents got something for themselves out of these places. They found something in them that they needed personally, not what was in the best interest of their children. But What?
It isn't a matter of blame. These are questions I'd love some parents to answer. We'll leave the blame to the self proclaimed "professionals" who tell adolescent girls that they provoked their own father to rape them and tell children who were battered by parents they deserved it.
Let's just end by saying that NO child needs, in your words, a "facility such as this" Let's remember that there are countless rehabs, hospitals and mental health options which are productive, neccessary, and successful in helping adolescents address the problems they are facing. These however are not from what I can tell, the places being discussed here. And kids from those places don't have and do not need a website like this because they were treated appropriately for their problems AND treated right.
Haven't so many of these kids been blamed for so much that can not possibly be their fault already? What is your point?
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You make a good point - I hope your post will be read over carefully and thoughtfully by the program folks who drop by.
In my opinion, what the parents 'get' out of it is their ego stroked and inflated. They get a group to belong to; something to be and commit to.
They have it powerfully and constantly reinforced by group think, acceptance and compliance.
For the most part, everyone they are talking to about their child's situation is in agreement that they are doing what?s best; even what Must be done; for the child's sake.
They are strongly discouraged from speaking with anyone who might not be supportive of 'the program'. Many take this to the point of cutting off contact with non-supportive family members.
And they have a large group of like minded folks telling them they are wonderful, powerful, and justified for trusting the program so absolutely.
In my mind, its a diabolically clever mode of control the program has concocted.
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I had an odd experience just before Christmas this last year. As I was mailing a gift package to a program kid and *hoping* at least some of it would get through, I mentioned to the guy behind the counter why I wanted to send it anonymously, if possible.
Turns out he had been stuck in one of these places by his parents when he was a teen. He understood exactly where I was coming from because he had been just a normal, garden-variety teen getting up to no more and no less than the average teen does.
His parents were just total whack-jobs and freaked out over stuff that my parents and my friends' parents and I and my friends as parents just handle and deal with as part of the normal process of parenthood.
When you treat a teen like she is not a human being with human rights, you may get away with it without going to jail, but the adult that teen becomes remembers, and judges you for it.
As she should.
Responsible parents are appalled by the excesses of Program parents. Hopefully someday we'll be able to intervene to prevent those excesses from happening.
Until then, the Program parents will just have to face the consequences of their own bad choices in the form of lost relationships with their grown offspring.
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The second ANON on this page is one of these allegedly coerced parents. Please read
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?So ... &start=200 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?Sort=&topic=3344&forum=12&start=200)