Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Anonymous on October 06, 2003, 11:13:00 PM
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You know I am so sick of hearing some of you blaming us parents. Some of you telling us you would never have fallen for their lies, their glossy brochures, their heartwrenching videos, their paid parent referrals, bu tyou know what, you need to walk our shoes to feel our hearts. I dont think that there are many parents out there that didnt try to get help for there child because they wanted them punished. Out of LOVE we gave up so much to help them. Many of us cashed out our retirement, will be paying loans for the next 10-20 years and no longer have savings. For what? They told us our kid would be dead if we didnt give up all we had to save them. Truthfully, I would give my life for my child, but I didnt sign on for them to be abused or myself being deceived. The blame game has only just begun, and I for one am waiting fo r them to feel the pain of this lawsuit.
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Look, there seems to be two kinds of parents. Those who wouldn't dream of sending their kids to strangers and trusting blindly that they would be well cared for. And there are those who are far too trusting, desperate, revengeful,________. They assume the owner's and staff genuinely care, who can be very convincing, particularly to a desperate parent.
My ex was the later. He indeed wanted to punish our son for not loving his new wife- who was the epitome of wicked step mother (no exaggeration).
You may not fall in that catagory, but there certainly are parents who intend to punish. Read the Struggling Teens message board. The teens are sometimes talked about as if they are inanimate objects. I can hardly make it through one pathetic post.
No need to defend yourself. People are going to voice their resentments. You should probably look at why that bothers you. One thing certain, you aren't going to stop it anytime soon.
I have walked in your shoes, and while I don't "blame" you, I don't understand how you could entrust your child to a stranger. I just can't imagine a situation in which I would choose that. And yes, I have been there. My older son was a mess (PTSD) when he returned from six months at military school. The thought never crossed my mind, but then I saw the effects of six months away.
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Anon, I have walked in your shoes. What happened that you feel like such a victim? I don't blame you, I don't blame wwasp, I don't blame my child. It is what it is. If your child didn't work his/her program, it's nobody's fault. And, nobody told you your child would be dead if you hadn't done something...you knew in your heart it could have happened, so you did something about it. However long your child was there was probably long enough for you to wake up and be a parent, not a friend to your child. You learned what you needed in the seminars about yourself and what you were willing to accept, not lower your standards for your child's choices and many other things. What you haven't learned is the true meaning of accountability. The twisted definition is now "Make wwasp accountable" - which really only means making them responsible for your and your child's choices.
I don't trust a lawyer to see that this not about wwasp, but about you.
I have never read anything on this board that is really about wwasp. It's been about husbands, fathers, brothers, daughters, etc. wwasp is the scapegoat and the lawyers will do what lawyers do...why the hell are there so many of them on this planet??
Get pissed...that will prove that I'm on target. Your statement about spending your retirement, etc., tells me this is all about money, not what was best for your child who decided not to work their program.
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:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
You program(ed) people really crack me up. Go ahead and blast away anon, it will not prove s/he is "on target" about anything s/he said.
A classic example of how the brainwashing technique works. First lay out what you want the other person to believe, then tell the person if they react a certain way, they will validate your self-serving comments.
If the allegations of abuse and fraud are true, then you bet, WWASP needs to be held "accountable". Twisting of definitions? That's a good one. There are obviously enough independent complaints to warrant an investigation/lawsuit.
I think you're a control freak and are extremely brainwashed. I think you enjoy manipulating people to believe your warped perception of reality. Someone did a number on you. You, of all the anon posters, (yes, your posts are unique) are really eaten up with it.
Go ahead, get pissed, deny it. You'll only be proving I'm on target.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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How sad. I don't know this Deborah person and I am glad I don't. What an unsensitive response. My parents put me in a horrible program and I now totally understand their fear, pain and desperation. If you truly beleive your child is going to die it is very easy to see how a parent would try anything to save their child. My experience has been that the parents that put their children in these programs don't know much or have any experience with drugs, alcohol abuse or a troubled runaway. Most of my program friends' parents were clueless about what was wrong with us or how to help us so they beleived these "professionals." To be quite honest I was safer in the program I was in than on the streets with whoever getting high. That does not mean I agree with any abuse of any kind to anyone. Obviously, the best situation would of been for me to be in a program that was not abusive and eventually I was. It sounds like this Deborah person may really be deflecting her anger and resentment towards her ex. onto everyone else.
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And you sound like the first Anon, now pretending to be a former participant.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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I think you're a control freak
I think the parents who send their children to these programs are control freaks. I think that is why these programs appeal to them.
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On 2003-10-06 22:32:00, Anonymous wrote:
"How sad. I don't know this Deborah person and I am glad I don't. What an unsensitive response. My parents put me in a horrible program and I now totally understand their fear, pain and desperation. If you truly beleive your child is going to die it is very easy to see how a parent would try anything to save their child. My experience has been that the parents that put their children in these programs don't know much or have any experience with drugs, alcohol abuse or a troubled runaway. Most of my program friends' parents were clueless about what was wrong with us or how to help us so they beleived these "professionals." To be quite honest I was safer in the program I was in than on the streets with whoever getting high. That does not mean I agree with any abuse of any kind to anyone. Obviously, the best situation would of been for me to be in a program that was not abusive and eventually I was. It sounds like this Deborah person may really be deflecting her anger and resentment towards her ex. onto everyone else."
"Deflecting her anger"----I just hate it when people with no training except for experience as a patient indulge in psychobabble.
Being a patient doesn't qualify you to play at being a doctor.
The parents who send their kids off to strangers are credulous "marks." Most people who fall for con games are.
It doesn't make them bad people, they're just the reason that most of us who aren't credulous "marks" want frauds and cons to be pursued, shut down, and severely punished.
I pity the parents. There are always going to be extraordinarily gullible people in this world, and they're prime examples of the trait.
If and when I ever sound angry with the parents, it's not really anger with them, but more a case of frustration at our laws not being adequate to protect their children from the parents gullibility.
It's pointless to be angry with easy marks for being easy marks.
At the same time, I'm not going to be "sensitive" to the parents by pretending they are not easy marks. Realizing they've been gullible is one of the best chances they've got for growing a healthy skepticism towards anybody who wants their money.
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On 2003-10-07 04:54:00, Deborah wrote:
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And you sound like the first Anon, now pretending to be a former participant.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Nope. Sorry lady, I'm just a person who can't stand self righteous ass holes!!
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On 2003-10-07 07:20:00, Anonymous wrote:
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On 2003-10-06 22:32:00, Anonymous wrote:
"How sad. I don't know this Deborah person and I am glad I don't. What an unsensitive response. My parents put me in a horrible program and I now totally understand their fear, pain and desperation. If you truly beleive your child is going to die it is very easy to see how a parent would try anything to save their child. My experience has been that the parents that put their children in these programs don't know much or have any experience with drugs, alcohol abuse or a troubled runaway. Most of my program friends' parents were clueless about what was wrong with us or how to help us so they beleived these "professionals." To be quite honest I was safer in the program I was in than on the streets with whoever getting high. That does not mean I agree with any abuse of any kind to anyone. Obviously, the best situation would of been for me to be in a program that was not abusive and eventually I was. It sounds like this Deborah person may really be deflecting her anger and resentment towards her ex. onto everyone else."
"Deflecting her anger"----I just hate it when people with no training except for experience as a patient indulge in psychobabble.
Being a patient doesn't qualify you to play at being a doctor.
The parents who send their kids off to strangers are credulous "marks." Most people who fall for con games are.
It doesn't make them bad people, they're just the reason that most of us who aren't credulous "marks" want frauds and cons to be pursued, shut down, and severely punished.
I pity the parents. There are always going to be extraordinarily gullible people in this world, and they're prime examples of the trait.
If and when I ever sound angry with the parents, it's not really anger with them, but more a case of frustration at our laws not being adequate to protect their children from the parents gullibility.
It's pointless to be angry with easy marks for being easy marks.
At the same time, I'm not going to be "sensitive" to the parents by pretending they are not easy marks. Realizing they've been gullible is one of the best chances they've got for growing a healthy skepticism towards anybody who wants their money.
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Hmmm....sounds like I hit a nerve. You are an easy mark. Also, I don't think anyone expects you to be sensitive. I doubt you are capable of it.
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Deborah wrote: "A classic example of how the brainwashing technique works. First lay out what you want the other person to believe, then tell the person if they react a certain way, they will validate your self-serving comments."
:roll:
Isn't that what YOU are attempting to accomplish here, Deborah? And, many others are looking for validation as well.
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On 2003-10-06 21:16:00, Deborah wrote:
"Look, there seems to be two kinds of parents. Those who wouldn't dream of sending their kids to strangers and trusting blindly that they would be well cared for. And there are those who are far too trusting, desperate, revengeful,________. They assume the owner's and staff genuinely care, who can be very convincing, particularly to a desperate parent."
There are more than those two types. I can give two examples based on extensive, very personal, firsthand experience. There was my mother, definite type B above. And it wasn't just us kids. She reveled in using AA dogma to scapegoat and demonize my father all of my life. And she actually believed she could diagnose alcohol and other drug dependency in strangers based on brief, casual conversation.
But there's a type C parent who becomes convinced that they're in over their heads, that their kids are in real trouble and that their own resources and abilities are just not going to be enough. They don't necessarily agree with the totalitarian program philosophy. But they'll go along with it, no matter what the program demands of them, because the haven't got any better ideas.
That was my dad. And I remember quite a few other program parents who seemed to feel that way. They'd soften the blow any time they could with little things like giving us a mattress to sleep on in the host home. (Straight housed the clients in the homes of families further along in the program.) Doesn't mean they didn't violate fire codes by nailing the windows shut and dead-bolting the doors or that they wouldn't readily lie under oath to convince a judge to sign a court order or to convince a cop to make a wrongful arrest. They were, indeed, snookered into doing all kinds of awful things in the name of saving the children.
But I don't see a lot sense in putting it to the parents, even the most sadistic 'tin god' types among them. The parents come and the parents go in the continual revolving door that is the Program. For the last 30 years, CEDU, the Lichfields the Kays have been at this game, ruthlessly taking advantage of desperate parents; exploiting their worst fears for power and money.
Please remember, folks, so that you'll know what to expect and not be taken by surprise. It's really not ALL about the money. The money's primarily a means to an end. You can see that plainly if you look into how heavily these people invest in public policy and how obviously they receive their dividends. At the nut of it, it's about power. It's a lust for totalitarian god-like status and the power to destroy all critics.
And it all rests on their fragile ability to prevent us from communicating among ourselves and to the public. One voice won't do much, but there are literally thousands of us out there with a few more hooking up with eachother every day.
Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.
--John Adams
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
American drug war P.O.W.
10/80 - 10/82
Straight South (Sarasota, FL)
Anonymity Anonymous
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On 2003-10-07 08:37:00, Anonymous wrote:
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On 2003-10-07 07:20:00, Anonymous wrote:
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On 2003-10-06 22:32:00, Anonymous wrote:
"How sad. I don't know this Deborah person and I am glad I don't. What an unsensitive response. My parents put me in a horrible program and I now totally understand their fear, pain and desperation. If you truly beleive your child is going to die it is very easy to see how a parent would try anything to save their child. My experience has been that the parents that put their children in these programs don't know much or have any experience with drugs, alcohol abuse or a troubled runaway. Most of my program friends' parents were clueless about what was wrong with us or how to help us so they beleived these "professionals." To be quite honest I was safer in the program I was in than on the streets with whoever getting high. That does not mean I agree with any abuse of any kind to anyone. Obviously, the best situation would of been for me to be in a program that was not abusive and eventually I was. It sounds like this Deborah person may really be deflecting her anger and resentment towards her ex. onto everyone else."
"Deflecting her anger"----I just hate it when people with no training except for experience as a patient indulge in psychobabble.
Being a patient doesn't qualify you to play at being a doctor.
The parents who send their kids off to strangers are credulous "marks." Most people who fall for con games are.
It doesn't make them bad people, they're just the reason that most of us who aren't credulous "marks" want frauds and cons to be pursued, shut down, and severely punished.
I pity the parents. There are always going to be extraordinarily gullible people in this world, and they're prime examples of the trait.
If and when I ever sound angry with the parents, it's not really anger with them, but more a case of frustration at our laws not being adequate to protect their children from the parents gullibility.
It's pointless to be angry with easy marks for being easy marks.
At the same time, I'm not going to be "sensitive" to the parents by pretending they are not easy marks. Realizing they've been gullible is one of the best chances they've got for growing a healthy skepticism towards anybody who wants their money.
"
Hmmm....sounds like I hit a nerve. You are an easy mark. Also, I don't think anyone expects you to be sensitive. I doubt you are capable of it."
Actually, I've never lost money to a con in my life.
Unless you consider all organized religions cons, in which case I have put a bit in the collection plate here or there.
"...hit a nerve..." Psychobabble mind-reading word games from you.
Sorry (okay, no, I'm not really sorry), I'm not an easy mark for that kind of crap, either.
"...doubt you are capable of it..." There you go again, expecting others to buy into your attempted head games. That's an attempt at a guilt trip. There is no other conceivable reason to have said it. No sale, dude.
I don't know why you feel some need or desire to try to make others feel bad, but obviously you do. I pity you that.
I hope you're just having a bad hair day or something, but failing that I hope you figure out your problem, because that can't be a happy way to live.
I can log off and be totally away from you. You have to be around yourself 24/7. The way you're acting right now, that's gotta really suck for you.
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Someone needs to put you in your place. You are the one with a history of trying to make others feel bad. I can tell that from reading your posts. As far as the hitting a nerve thing, I guess I have to spell it out for you, all the angry comments about "gullable parents and how they are easy marks" etc...read your own post Ms. Self righteous. It is obvious who your seething rage is for. Are you really that clueless? Maybe so, read your posts.
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Isn't that what YOU are attempting to accomplish here, Deborah? And, many others are looking for validation as well.
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I can't think of a time in which I expressed what I wanted another person to believe, then told the person if they reacted a certain way they would be validating my self-serving comments or agenda.
Here's a little newsflash for all you programmed seminar shade-tree therapists.... a reaction to one of your idiotic theories or suggestions does not imply that it was accurate. There are numerous reasons people react. It's not that black and white. A lame attempt to get the "validation" you accuse others of seeking, just extremely manipulative. Same techniques the shrinkydinks used on my son in the high-dollar TBS. Fortunately, he knew they were ignorant beyond belief, but also that they had the authority to make his life miserable. You don't have that kind of power here. Haven't you noticed?
[ This Message was edited by: Deborah on 2003-10-07 17:50 ]
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On 2003-10-07 17:00:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Someone needs to put you in your place. You are the one with a history of trying to make others feel bad. I can tell that from reading your posts. As far as the hitting a nerve thing, I guess I have to spell it out for you, all the angry comments about "gullable parents and how they are easy marks" etc...read your own post Ms. Self righteous. It is obvious who your seething rage is for. Are you really that clueless? Maybe so, read your posts."
You don't have the power to put anyone else in any "place." You don't have the power to assign people to some "place" chosen by you.
And who would you think my so-called "seething rage" is for? This could get downright funny.
The parents who send their kids to these places *are* gullible. Just as gullible as the little old ladies that send their lifesavings to televangelists, or invest in the next "get rich quick" scheme, or buy into email inheritances from Nigeria.
Their gullibility is frustrating (because it affects children they are responsible for), but not criminal. Fraud and child abuse on the part of the institutions and the people running them *are* criminal, or at the very least are torts.
If you think your post(s) do some kind of place-putting, okaaayyyyy---whatever flips your lid.
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The person who wrote that is someone else. Not me, the last person that posted.
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On 2003-10-07 18:11:00, Anonymous wrote:
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On 2003-10-07 17:00:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Someone needs to put you in your place. You are the one with a history of trying to make others feel bad. I can tell that from reading your posts. As far as the hitting a nerve thing, I guess I have to spell it out for you, all the angry comments about "gullable parents and how they are easy marks" etc...read your own post Ms. Self righteous. It is obvious who your seething rage is for. Are you really that clueless? Maybe so, read your posts."
You don't have the power to put anyone else in any "place." You don't have the power to assign people to some "place" chosen by you.
And who would you think my so-called "seething rage" is for? This could get downright funny.
The parents who send their kids to these places *are* gullible. Just as gullible as the little old ladies that send their lifesavings to televangelists, or invest in the next "get rich quick" scheme, or buy into email inheritances from Nigeria.
Their gullibility is frustrating (because it affects children they are responsible for), but not criminal. Fraud and child abuse on the part of the institutions and the people running them *are* criminal, or at the very least are torts.
If you think your post(s) do some kind of place-putting, okaaayyyyy---whatever flips your lid."
No, it looks as though you have put yourself right where you belong. Your true colors are shining bright for all to see.
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Deborah - What's with all the name-calling? You seem to be both judge and jury when it comes to what you perceive as true. Yes, I get that you want people to believe your story, and I don't feel it's credible when it comes to wwasp. There are so many things that you've shared that are very different. The bandwagon is out of tune
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On 2003-10-07 18:22:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Deborah - What's with all the name-calling? You seem to be both judge and jury when it comes to what you perceive as true. Yes, I get that you want people to believe your story, and I don't feel it's credible when it comes to wwasp. There are so many things that you've shared that are very different. The bandwagon is out of tune"
DITTO!!!!!!!!!
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Deborah, looks like you got your panties in quite a bunch! :rofl:
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No, it looks as though you have put yourself right where you belong. Your true colors are shining bright for all to see."
I don't have a problem with my colors. That you would think I would is...strange.
I think I'm just going to chalk you up as a very odd duck, not that there's anything wrong with that, and wander on my merry way.
I hope you have a nice evening.
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Their gullibility is frustrating (because it affects children they are responsible for), but not criminal
I disagree. The parents are not gullible, they are neglegent!
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Good job Deb. You are becoming more likable already. :wave:
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On 2003-10-07 18:37:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Their gullibility is frustrating (because it affects children they are responsible for), but not criminal
I disagree. The parents are not gullible, they are neglegent!"
The only set of these parents I've run into personally I would classify as more gullible than negligent.
And I'm not trying to give them a free pass or anything, because I actually don't like them very much. At all, in fact.
They just seem to be well meaning but have lousy judgement about who to trust and what are red flags and when to pay real close attention to the red flags.
The kind of people with more money than common sense.
Your experience may well be different.
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***You seem to be both judge and jury when it comes to what you perceive as true.
We're all here sharing our experience and opinions... well except those who are attempting ontological coaching without permission from the other participants. I like my opinions/truth atleast as well as you like your's. Is it rare that you encounter that? Is it rare that you encounter anyone who has their own opinions/truths? I imagine what really bugs you is that I won't be silenced or be manipulated by your BS, or let some BS go by without commenting. You demonstrate BS, and I'll point it out, to the best of my ability and truth, when I'm in the mood.
***Yes, I get that you want people to believe your story, and I don't feel it's credible when it comes to wwasp.
I have absolutely no need for you to believe my story- I actually think that is an impossibility, and I'm certainly not here to convince you or anyone else. It will ring true for some, and others may remember it when they are a couple of months into a program and things aren't going as they were told they would. They'll be back here reading up to validate their hunches regarding the unbelievable things that are transpiring. Unless of course, they are good program parents and never question anything on their child's behalf.
If you've seen one program, you've seen them all, or atleast the majority. They all use the same or very similar techniques. And again, this board is not exclusively wwasp. They are not the only program scammimg parents.
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Wait a second here. Doesn't WWASP teach that everything is what you make it, if you have a problem it's your problem, if bad things happen to you it's your fault?
So then... with all these bad things happening to WWASP, programs closing, criminal investigations, lawsuites, bad press and all, how come they don't practice what they preach?
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On 2003-10-07 18:22:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Deborah - What's with all the name-calling? You seem to be both judge and jury when it comes to what you perceive as true. Yes, I get that you want people to believe your story, and I don't feel it's credible when it comes to wwasp. There are so many things that you've shared that are very different. The bandwagon is out of tune"
Yes, I think that is probably the best way to sum her up, "Judge and jury when it comes to what she perceives as true." :tup:
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On 2003-10-07 20:48:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Yes, I think that is probably the best way to sum her up, "Judge and jury when it comes to what she perceives as true." :tup: "
Yes, :tup: ! In the more commonly accepted reality outside the RR seminars, this is what we call "self determination" or "independent assessment". We sort out our perceptions in the context of past experience, knowledge and understanding and we draw our own conclusions without any need whatever for any higher authority to tell us what we're looking at.
Sound crazy? Well, don't knock it if you haven't tried it.
The weavers of linen and hempen cloth, ... may exercise their trades without paying any fine.
-- Adam Smith in The Wealth of Nations (chapter X, part II) notes:
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Yes, we all believe what we want to. Just like I didn't want to believe my son was smoking crack or dropping acid. Then again, if we want to find the negative, IT'S SO EASY to do. If you're happy living in the negative, then that's the first thing you will see, and the person who lives in the positive won't even see it as negative at all. Even people in the same family will see the world differently.
Just like so many MORE parents believe in WWASPS than a handful of parents that don't. My "guess" is that shows up in other areas of their lives, not just regarding WWASPS.
So you WWASPS haters, where else does the "victim" show up in your lives? Ooops, there goes my program speak!! LOL!
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Hey above Anon, you are spoken like a true FOLLOWER. We will pray for your children. Someday when you wake up from the kool-aid you are drinking, if you are brave enough, you will be apologizing to your child. Watch for the lawsuit, factual sad details to be announced.
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The only set of these parents I've run into personally I would classify as more gullible than negligent.
I am curious anon, are you one of those "gullible" or "negligent" parents?
Yes, we all believe what we want to. Just like I didn't want to believe my son was smoking crack or dropping acid. Then again, if we want to find the negative, IT'S SO EASY to do. If you're happy living in the negative, then that's the first thing you will see, and the person who lives in the positive won't even see it as negative at all. Even people in the same family will see the world differently.
To the anon who posted the above, IF, and I say IF you were to believe the accusations of abuse being posted on this site, then would you still feel that what you did was in the best interest of your son?
Or
Is it just that you don't believe what is being posted and therefore you recognized that your son needed help and therefore you turned to WWASP for that help?
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On 2003-10-07 19:57:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Wait a second here. Doesn't WWASP teach that everything is what you make it, if you have a problem it's your problem, if bad things happen to you it's your fault?
So then... with all these bad things happening to WWASP, programs closing, criminal investigations, lawsuites, bad press and all, how come they don't practice what they preach?
"
Yes, everything happens for a reason. There is no "fault" - that's the blame game. WWASPS teaches that you have a choice. It doesn't teach that it is "your" choice to be raped or murdered. that is the choice of the rapist or murderer. WWASPS made a choice to help families with what they offer and it's a choice to take the heat from those that don't agree with rules and isolation when needed, or parents that still have a need to control even when their child is away getting the help they need. That's called working your child's program and the results would be for you, not for your child.
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:oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops:
Again.
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Carey - IF I believed what was being posted here, I would run as fast as I could and bring my son home - if he were still there. Thing is I don't believe it because I know it never happened to him and not to anyone's child that I personally know. I believe I would have heard about it from him long before now.
I do believe they use restraints when necessary, I do believe we have limited contact in the beginning, and I believe that no one is perfect and mistakes can be made by individual staff. That can happen anywhere. He was safer, much safer there than anywhere he was headed. I believe in laser feedback and personal growth seminars.
I don't believe there were bugs in the food, starvation, dirty water, no books, forcing a religion on him, cult crap or having to pay (in $$) for consequences like looking in a mirror.
Yes, I chose WWASPS for help. Thank GOD that I never read anything about them like what is posted here. I would have never chosen them and that would have been very sad.
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On 2003-10-08 16:42:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Hey above Anon, you are spoken like a true FOLLOWER. We will pray for your children. Someday when you wake up from the kool-aid you are drinking, if you are brave enough, you will be apologizing to your child. Watch for the lawsuit, factual sad details to be announced."
WWASPS doesn't grow followers, they grow leaders. I just apologized to my son. I apologized for giving him a better way to live his young life - without anger, drugs, dropping out of school and self-destruction. :razz:
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On 2003-10-08 16:51:00, Anonymous wrote:
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On 2003-10-07 19:57:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Wait a second here. Doesn't WWASP teach that everything is what you make it, if you have a problem it's your problem, if bad things happen to you it's your fault?
So then... with all these bad things happening to WWASP, programs closing, criminal investigations, lawsuites, bad press and all, how come they don't practice what they preach?
"
Yes, everything happens for a reason. There is no "fault" - that's the blame game. WWASPS teaches that you have a choice. It doesn't teach that it is "your" choice to be raped or murdered. that is the choice of the rapist or murderer. WWASPS made a choice to help families with what they offer and it's a choice to take the heat from those that don't agree with rules and isolation when needed, or parents that still have a need to control even when their child is away getting the help they need. That's called working your child's program and the results would be for you, not for your child. "
You know what? I don't give a crap whether *you* are "satisfied" with the "program" or not.
What I care about is whether the child you contributed half of the genes for is being abused or neglected.
A lot of abusive parents *like* the results of what they're doing and are very satisfied doing it. The mom that got caught on video in a parking lot punching the little girl out was happy with her own parenting and her results. The parents in the Atlanta House of Prayer were happy and satisfied with their results.
The thing is, kids aren't property. The rest of society gets a say in how you treat your kid and how the "programs" you send your kid to treat your kid.
And we're going to get the laws changed. We're going to get the escort agencies outlawed. We're going to change the laws so it requires an order of commitment from a court in the child's home state to place a child in a restrictive boarding school--in any state or to send the child out of the country. We're going to change the laws so that every blasted one of the RBS's will be vigilantly overseen by each state's child protection agency.
The changes will come.
Not too long ago, historically speaking, it was legal for parents to beat, starve, or even kill their disobedient children. Well, legal for men. Who could also get away with doing most of the same to their wives.
The world turns and times change. The way the programs treat these kids is way outside the norms of a large majority of voters in this society. The only reason you program parents have gotten away with this for so long is that you've managed to keep the average voter from knowing what was going on at these places. That's changing.
You can expect that the laws will change, as well.
I'm an experienced activist, and I've been involved in successfully getting laws changed before. Not in this area, but then I've just recently become aware of the problem. As have a lot of other people in my social circle. And developing awareness in the voting public and the legislators is the first step to political change.
So I don't care if you're happy about how you're treating your kid. Kids are coming out of these places with stories of abuse that are in various cases being substantiated with other corroborating evidence.
These places need more government oversight. And, once the word gets out, I have faith in the rest of the voting public to see that they get it.
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Karen - he's been home for a long time, and I asked him while he was there, I asked him when he got home because someone had asked me. He not only said NO, but he said that with the way some of the guys where, he was surprised they didn't get hurt. we know that the staff are trained in restraint if it's needed.
I have no experience of Dundee ranch, however i know a boy that was there when all the chaos happened and he said that he was sorry that happened and wanted to go back when and if it reopens. Why would he say that if he was being abused there? From what I've read from you, I don't doubt that you believe they (the staff) were abusing kids. I personally don't know, I wasn't there.
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IF I believed what was being posted here, I would run as fast as I could and bring my son home
Thanks for replying to my question. I was hoping that would be your answer. I understand your need for proof as to the allegations being made on this site. I don't believe them all myself. However, for me, because of the secrecy and the unwillingness to disclose information that I personally was requesting about the program my boys were in, I found it was and still is enough for me to have doubts about how the teens who were there were really being treated vs. how Dundee would like for me to have believed they were being treated. I just did not and still do not feel that the risk was worth the taking. You see everything that I thought was wrong about Dundee is what has closed them down. They have not been shut down because they were beating kids. They were shut down for various other reasons, such as:
Overcrowding
Hygiene associated with the facility
Levels of nutrition
Lack of attention with regard to health matters
Limiting outside contact / isolation
The staff did not have a clear understanding of the English language
Lack of professional staff
Inappropritate punishment
NO PERMITS , Health, Eduacation
The money invested was not spent to help the children
No clear curriculum
Constructing the "High Impact" facility
This is why I had and still have a problem with Dundee. I also have a problem with them because they accepted my children denying me of my rights as a parent without my consent. They were practicing their methods and beliefs on my children without my ok.
My boys have had contact with one of the very few boys to have gradutated from Dundee. He says he has no hard feelings towards Dundee. He also says he has no good feelings. He says he has just chosen to move on with his life. He seems to be doing ok. I am happy for him. He may just be one of the lucky ones. But, I am sure there are some who have been damaged by such a drastic form of "rehabilitation" if that is what you want to call it. I don't, as I have already stated, agree with what was going on at Dundee.
I am glad things turned out good for your son. I only want for all kids to be so lucky. I am just afraid that without any kind of outside monitoring from professionals the situation is far to risky. When I say outside monitoring, I mean outside monitoring from professionals. It can't be parents of the teens who are there. It must be professionals whose job is to ensure the safety and wellbeing of the children who are being detained in these programs. These professionals have to be independent of the programs themselves. They can not be hired or employed in anyway by the programs. They need to be a third party child advocate whos job is to ensure the saftety and wellbeing of the teen. You understand what I am saying.
Let me say one more thing about there being a third party child advocate looking in on these programs. It would also save these programs from a lot of false alligations of abuse. You see I think a third party child advocate monitoring these programs is a win win situation for the teens who are there as well as for the programs themselves.
Why would he say that if he was being abused there?
Maybe a child would say that because they simply want to please their parents. Maybe they would say that because they are convinced they can't make it on the outside. Who knows, but I am sure it is possible that the child you are speaking of just might not mean what he is saying. Why somtimes does an abused wife choose to stay with their abuser? Because she may think she deserves the abuse. It is all a part of having been a part of dysfunctional and abusive relationships.
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Anon responded:
however i know a boy that was there when all the chaos happened and he said that he was sorry that happened and wanted to go back when and if it reopens. Why would he say that if he was being abused there?
I too, have spoken with kids who were there when Dundee fell; several in fact. Not all feel they were abused; tho some were, and some were/are witnesses. All speak of various other areas of concern; Diet, Hygiene, Morphine - little things like that. Not every kid has had the same experience; but when you talk to enough of them, a pretty clear picture emerges; and its not pretty.
The accounts given by wwasp students across the wwasp web are all very similar. Not all were abused - but some were, and some just witnessed abuse. Some are no longer able to recognize abuse when they see it. I wonder if this isn't often the case?
As for wanting to return - that I don't believe - unless the kid is sitting in TB. I will say, its not unusual for the students to feel some regret at leaving. The reason's for this are complicated but I think the basic and easiest to explain is they are worried about their friends; and they feel a need to be with others who can relate to what they've been threw. Even so, I haven't spoken with or written a post wwasp student who wanted to go back, even tho some do have things they miss about it.
When I said Ask, I mean very specific questions. The generic question: Were you abused? will often get a negative response, even when they experienced things that are clearly abusive. As mentioned, I believe this is b/c they cease to recognize abuse.
I'm not trying to say your kid was without a doubt beat up - but if they spent a day in OP they experienced abuse. If they were restrained in the typical wwasp fashion, that was abuse.
If they were kept hungry and tired and scared and stressed in the first 3 levels - that was abuse.
And, it is possible they were beat up, or a witness to beating, and that is also abuse.
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****we know that the staff are trained in restraint if it's needed.
You KNOW! Or you were told?
Where and from whom do they receive this training in restraint?
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Karen - I'm well aware of what abuse is. Please do not manipulate what I said to make it look as though I have no clue. You don't believe what I know, I don't believe what you think is true. That's not to say you are a liar, because you believe it, so it is your truth. I'm saying just because neither my son nor any of the kids I've met from many different programs at many different times were never abused doesn't mean it didn't happen.
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Carey - I do understand where you're coming from. I'll just say, go with your gut feelings. I say that to any parent that is struggling with what they are feeling vs what the staff are saying. You're not wrong to feel things weren't what you wanted for your sons.
I will say that I would have never sent my son out of the country. I'm too familiar with the governments of different countries and was grateful that WWASPS had programs in the US. It wasn't WWASPS that I had issues with, it was the governments in the other countries. Dundee is not a place I had any experience of at all. I chose a school that had professional staff, therapists and was in a good community with lots of opportunities for off grounds activities and sports.
I know wwASPS has a PR person making recommendations and I do see where the third party advocate would stop false allegations by the parents. the kids will always be saying what they think their parents will believe to bring them home - it is what it is. I know the recommendations will be welcome by everyone involved, but dont know specifics at this point.
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Forget the PR Firm, they get paid to influence public opinion, not protect kids.
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On 2003-10-08 22:12:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Carey - I do understand where you're coming from. I'll just say, go with your gut feelings. I say that to any parent that is struggling with what they are feeling vs what the staff are saying. You're not wrong to feel things weren't what you wanted for your sons.
I will say that I would have never sent my son out of the country. I'm too familiar with the governments of different countries and was grateful that WWASPS had programs in the US. It wasn't WWASPS that I had issues with, it was the governments in the other countries. Dundee is not a place I had any experience of at all. I chose a school that had professional staff, therapists and was in a good community with lots of opportunities for off grounds activities and sports.
I know wwASPS has a PR person making recommendations and I do see where the third party advocate would stop false allegations by the parents. the kids will always be saying what they think their parents will believe to bring them home - it is what it is. I know the recommendations will be welcome by everyone involved, but dont know specifics at this point. "
I don't think Carey would agree the WWASPS's PR Firm is qualified to monitor the care and treatment of children in residential programs.
:silly:
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Where did it say the PR firm would be monitoring - I see there will be recommendations and quite possibly that will be one of the recommendations. Let Carey speak for herself. :wink:
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What the hell is a PR Firm doing making recommendations anyway? The only people qualified to make recommendations are medical and mental health professionals. Why not hire them to visit these facilities and make recommendations based on insights obtained IN THE FIELD instead of from behind some desk in an office in Colorado?
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Thanks Anon. I think you understand what the real issues are and what they have been for my fmaily. I hope that states will incoroporate with in their social services dept. child advocates who's only function will be to monitor lock and key facilities. I think something along these lines would benefit everyone.
By the way, my child being out of the country was the 1st red flag for me.
[ This Message was edited by: Carey on 2003-10-09 04:51 ]
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Hellooooo
The Pr firmis making recommendations?
Is that like Dr Chappuis hears the pedophiles are at work and he tells the director.
Get real. The Pr firm works for the evil empire as does Dr Chappuis.
Disgusting and illegal.
Let the PR firm send their kid for a yr plus then we can get the true "results."
If they reccomend they will become defendants too.
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Why are you bashing WWASP for hiring a PR firm and/or why are you bashing the PR firm that they have hired? I would think that any corporation who is under the microscope because of bad publicity whether acurate or not would do the same. AND...no one is saying that the "third party child advocates" should be recommended, chosen and/or hired by the PR firm that WWASP has hired.