Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Anonymous on October 06, 2003, 08:11:00 PM
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I am curious how many other parents paid for this yet still sent over all the supplies?
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Probably only the dumb ones.
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Not dumb, but manipulated.
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How does someone manipulate you into giving money for incidentals and at the same time get you to send the incidentals that you have given the money for? There is that big word again, manipulation...but look who is using it now, an ex-parent. Funny isn't it :lol:
No, I think the answer is you were dumb not manipulated.
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:wstupid: :razz:
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Stupid is as stupid does.
:wave:
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Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeew! The personal supplies covered by incedental fees... the stuff you can buy at the facility store is so disgusting. It's the worst, cheapest crap you can buy. The shampoo and stuff is Suave, the really gross Suave from the 80's, and some generic toothpaste that doesn't work, etc. It's all crap, and useless. Having your parents at least send you decent shampoo and stuff is one of the only ways you have control of keeping your body even a little bit healthy.
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Thank you Melisa.
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On 2003-10-06 18:38:00, MelissaR wrote:
"Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeew! The personal supplies covered by incedental fees... the stuff you can buy at the facility store is so disgusting. It's the worst, cheapest crap you can buy. The shampoo and stuff is Suave, the really gross Suave from the 80's, and some generic toothpaste that doesn't work, etc. It's all crap, and useless. Having your parents at least send you decent shampoo and stuff is one of the only ways you have control of keeping your body even a little bit healthy."
Hey, I use Suave!! What is decent? The designer label stuff that does the same thing?? Nope, I agree, it's dumb and manipulation.
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That is really a great explanation Melissa, NOT!! It still does not explain why a parent is stupid enough to send the money for incidentals and yet also send the incidentals. Why didn't the parent say "hey what are you spending my money on cheap stuff for? I am paying alot of money for these incidentals."
Oh they must say to themselves "I am paying a lot of money for cheap stuff and yet I want my child to have good stuff so I will pay for the cheap stuff and pay for the good stuff too." DUMB!!!!!! Gimmee a break.
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AS a parent, I didnt sign up for my child to be abused or lack the sanitation they need to feel clean and feel better. Sure, they all had problems, that is what cuased us to find help, BUT we didnt ask for our child to be treated less than humane. Dumb, you are right, we were dumb to fall for the WWASPS SHIT, or line of SHIT. Call me any name you want to call me, I wanted real help for my child, and now I pay on a loan that will ever be a reminder of the SHIT I fell for.
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You're kidding, right? You're jokin? You really think that using old'n moldy Suave is good for you? Especially when you barely get a shower anyway? Oh wow... well I guess if you just brush your teeth with Borax, they'll be fine too...? You don't really understand how nice it is to receive a bottle of Johnson's baby shampoo, even, because you know it will at least clean your hair out. I can't tell you how many times we were quarantined for lice outbreaks. You can't just hand over some sick old bottle of shampoo and expect it to do the trick. Especially for the ethnic-haired folks... but the shampoo thing doesn't even scratch the surface. Another thing about hygeine is that I had porcelain skin when I entered the program and the disgusting deposits in the water, all the silt and sand and whatnot, they don't bother to purify it.... left me with hundreds of blackheads and horrific acne that has plagued me for the last year, and hundreds of dollars wasted on facials, chemical peels, etc. Call me spoiled if you wish... but that is just the beginning of the reprecussions of the awful treatment, and lack of basic care I endured while in a WWASP facility.
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Interesting. At the facility my son did his 20 month stint, parents had to purchase toileties, laundry detergent, etc from the facility's list of approved products. Nothing came in from the outside. Like parents were going to spike the mouthwash or send contraband in care packages !!
Suave, which is .99 at WalMart, was $5. Don't have the list in front of me, but that one I recall. Even if they purchased it retail, that's a hefty profit, under the guise of protecting the child.
I was continually amazed at how ignorant my ex was, but then he could afford it. Money was not an issue.
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Melissa - are you saying that if you had not been there you would not have gotten the acne? How do you know that? I do not agree about the lack of showers, personal hygiene. In fact, I don't even believe you... based on my own experience. You may get people on this board to believe you, but those of us that know better won't believe a word you say after this last crap. Make it up as you go to fit the thread.
Deborah, and the facility your child was in is?? It wasn't wwasp, correct. So why do you post about it on a thread that is clearly related to wwasp? Name your program.
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On 2003-10-06 21:05:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Melissa - are you saying that if you had not been there you would not have gotten the acne? How do you know that? I do not agree about the lack of showers, personal hygiene. In fact, I don't even believe you... based on my own experience. You may get people on this board to believe you, but those of us that know better won't believe a word you say after this last crap. Make it up as you go to fit the thread.
Ummmm... okay? That's exactly what my doctor said.... dirty water. No one in my family ever had any history of acne or any other dermatologic ailment. That's why you get acne, my friend... If you don't wash your face with soap (beacause you don't have it), you bathe in dirty water, you don't keep your hair clean,and off your face, you get acne. I'd be more than happy to send you pictures of what I look like now...and what I looked like before the program. I'm not saying I'm a full-blown pizza face, but I definitely incurred some serious damage as a result of being in the program. How ignorant of you to tell me that I "make up" my information on this thread... you're more than welcome to read my articles in YM, Teen Vogue and The New York times...it looks as everything I've ever said stacks up accordingly.
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The thread is titled "Incidental Fees", not "Incidental Fees at WWASP facilties". This board has only recently been inundated by WWASP people and dialogue, it's not exclusively WWASP.
And WWASP doesn't have the market cornered on scamming parents for every penny they can suck out of them. It's Industry-wide.
As for Melissa's post, It's much easier for me to believe someone who has been there and lived it. You as a parent have no clue what transpires on a day-to-day basis....only what you are told and want to believe. What exactly is your "personal experience"? How many months/years did you spend there- since that is truly the only way to know what's really happening?
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Melissa - I just have to jump in here on this one! No one, and I mean NO ONE in my family had a history of acne. My sister and I both got it, not like pizza face, but annoying just the same between the ages of 15-18. It had nothing to do with cleanliness or diet, we are vegetarians and had plenty of cleansers. If acne was so easy to clear up, why are there TONS of products on the shelves and dermatologists prescribing all kinds of "cures?" Teenagers get acne, some adults get acne. Fact of Life. P.S. - I also use Suave products.
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My grandaughter got 2 letters out during her first 6 weeks at Casa by the Sea. The first which made it through asked for soap. The second, 3 weeks later, contained thanks for the soap.
She lost her only bar of soap on her first week there, by leaving it in the shower. She was told she was "up shit creek", and new toiletries would be available by passing before a cardboard box of cheap stuff available only on the first of each month. For her "family" of 25 girls, a total of nearly $2500 was paid by parents for a cardboard box of the poorest quality of personal products. When she lost her soap (or even if it was stolen), no replacement was available.
Her mother sent her a small gift box containing bar soap (no specials such as perfumed personal items were allowed). This package was sent to Chula Vista. CA to Casa Couriers, a parents' group which sends packages on a random schedule, identifying them as "school materials, books, etc." Their web site gives explicit instructions on how to hide items from Mexican inspection and how to remove any labels signifying Chinese origin (Mexico has a high tariff on those imports). Begun as an effort to circumvent the $100 Federal Express fees for delivery to Ensenada, this group sends packages but requests a "donation" of $20 for each smaller package.
So the saga of a bar of Irish Spring goes from $95 per month "incidental" fees to the $$$ of purchasing, wrapping, mailing such items to Southern California, to the $20 or more to have Casa Couriers do their very illicit delivery. All for a bar of soap, which is not covered in the $2000 monthly boarding fee.
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Melissa,
Wether you use to (or do) believe my story, i agree with you about the whole hygene thing and how being in a wwasp facility can cause acne. I experienced the same thing. I wasnt alloud to look in the mirror at all! i was punished for looking at my reflection in a spoon. WWASP definatley caused my acne and if i never would have gone to a wwasp facility then i wouldnt have it. Im totally with u on that one. And to all those people who havent been to a wwasp facility then shutup cause u are nothing to judge if you question the truth about being in a wwasp prison. There is no question that it can cause terrible hygene and acne. and ive spent countless cash on facials, peels, and products, (accutane is the only thing that works)
Your parents are billed if you look in a mirror or the reflection of yourself and you get in trouble. And someone is stupid enough to tell me thats healthy? WWASP is abusive in every way- no need to debate it mel, some people think they can justify abuse by "praising the program". The truth is is going to bite them in the A$$.
i do think some people on fornits are crazy, however mellissa is right, i did experience the same situation.
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AS a parent, I didnt sign up for my child to be abused or lack the sanitation they need to feel clean and feel better
That is what can happen when you personally do not check on your child. Every parent should be actively involved in their childs treatment, whether it be in rehab, boarding schools or wherever. If a parent chooses, and you must choose no one can take that right to choose away from you, to not see your child for an extended peiod of time because a school or treatment centers says it is in the best interest of the child, well then this is what can happen.
[ This Message was edited by: Carey on 2003-10-07 05:16 ]
[ This Message was edited by: Carey on 2003-10-07 05:18 ]
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[ This Message was edited by: KarenZ on 2003-10-18 17:33 ]
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Oh yah, don't even get me started on the food situation... I remember those bug things, the weevils! I knew that's what they were... I found all sorts of things in my "food," including a tooth from one of the cooks one time. The administration wrote off my grievance (of course) and told me it was MY tooth that was inside of the food.... except I hadn't lost a tooth since I was 12. Anyway, yah, the food situation at SCL is tricky because they get you addicted to their disgsting carbs so you get a big fat belly ring which seems like you are "healthy" and well fed, but it's just the carbs and sedimentary lifestyle setting in. That too, has stuck on me like glue....
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In no way was it a matter of singing over the kids. It was just the same kind of thing parents sign for day care operators and baby sitters; sometimes other family members
Really??? So to you Karen, putting your child in a school in another country because you were having problems with him, is just like putting your child in a day care down the street. A day care in which you can walk into at anytime to check on your child. A day care in which you pick up your child every evening and are able to see that they are fine. To you....it was the same as putting a child in a day care?
I guess you are the kind of parent who signs a contract with WWASP giving them the full authority to "control" your child...makes sense to me now. I just could not figure what kind of person could be so DUMB. Now I know.
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[ This Message was edited by: KarenZ on 2003-10-18 17:34 ]
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Really??? So to you Karen, putting your child in a school in another country because you were having problems with him, is just like putting your child in a day care down the street.
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Oh please. I think you need to read her message again. You obviously misunderstood or your desire to attack and defend is overriding your ability to read and comprehend.
Here's some homework that could improve your comprehension and attention to details, if you're interested. Cut and paste the comment that remotely compares placing a teen in a program to placing a child in daycare... or implies in ANY way that they are similar.
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It was just the same kind of thing parents sign for day care operators and baby sitters sometimes other family members
That is exactly what she said! She says "it was just the same kind of thing parents sign for day care operators and baby sitters sometimes other family members." She is saying what she signed was the same kind of thing that parents sign when they leave their child with a sitter or at a day care. If she compares the WWASP contract to a day care contract...then she is DUMB...and she is the kind of parent who would sign over the "control" of her child to a program.
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On 2003-10-07 19:16:00, Anonymous wrote:
"It was just the same kind of thing parents sign for day care operators and baby sitters sometimes other family members
That is exactly what she said! She says "it was just the same kind of thing parents sign for day care operators and baby sitters sometimes other family members." She is saying what she signed was the same kind of thing that parents sign when they leave their child with a sitter or at a day care. If she compares the WWASP contract to a day care contract...then she is DUMB...and she is the kind of parent who would sign over the "control" of her child to a program."
Well, Karen may be off-base here, but let's face it, rationalizing the committment of children into these institutions is a challenge for any parent. At least she is trying to make sense of it all which is better than program parents who apparently can't think their way out of a paper bag!!
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On 2003-10-07 20:24:00, Anonymous wrote:
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On 2003-10-07 19:16:00, Anonymous wrote:
"It was just the same kind of thing parents sign for day care operators and baby sitters sometimes other family members
That is exactly what she said! She says "it was just the same kind of thing parents sign for day care operators and baby sitters sometimes other family members." She is saying what she signed was the same kind of thing that parents sign when they leave their child with a sitter or at a day care. If she compares the WWASP contract to a day care contract...then she is DUMB...and she is the kind of parent who would sign over the "control" of her child to a program."
Well, Karen may be off-base here, but let's face it, rationalizing the committment of children into these institutions is a challenge for any parent. At least she is trying to make sense of it all which is better than program parents who apparently can't think their way out of a paper bag!!"
Nice to see you being compassionate. To someone anyway.
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On 2003-10-07 01:20:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Melissa,
Wether you use to (or do) believe my story, i agree with you about the whole hygene thing and how being in a wwasp facility can cause acne. I experienced the same thing. I wasnt alloud to look in the mirror at all! i was punished for looking at my reflection in a spoon. WWASP definatley caused my acne and if i never would have gone to a wwasp facility then i wouldnt have it. Im totally with u on that one. And to all those people who havent been to a wwasp facility then shutup cause u are nothing to judge if you question the truth about being in a wwasp prison. There is no question that it can cause terrible hygene and acne. and ive spent countless cash on facials, peels, and products, (accutane is the only thing that works)
Your parents are billed if you look in a mirror or the reflection of yourself and you get in trouble. And someone is stupid enough to tell me thats healthy? WWASP is abusive in every way- no need to debate it mel, some people think they can justify abuse by "praising the program". The truth is is going to bite them in the A$$.
i do think some people on fornits are crazy, however mellissa is right, i did experience the same situation."
First, Melissa - bathing in dirty water? I thought you guys had showers, not bathtubs, when did that change?
Second, to the poster of this message. You are so full of crap. No parent has ever been billed for their kid looking in a mirror. That's about as believable as saying teens don't get acne if they don't go wwasp. Jeeez.... :rofl:
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that message was not melissa's so get off her case or your gonna look like a fool. I got her back cause i believe her and i experienced the same thing. so Shut yo mouth Biachh.
YOUR PARENTS DO GET BILLED IF YOUR KID LOOKS OUT THE WINDOW OR LOOKS AT THERE REFLECTION. THEY SAY LOOKING OUT THE WINDOW IS "RUN AWAY PLANS" WHICH IS A CAT 4 AND ITS LIKE 30-50 DOLLARS.
SECOND, IF YOU LOOK AT YOUR REFLECTION IN THE MIRROR THEN YOU PARENTS GET BILLED, ITS CALLED A CAT 2 CONSIQUENCE. YOU WOULD BE SUPRISED OF HOW FREELY THE STAFF HANDS OUT CONSIQUENCES. THE REASON WHY THEY HAND OUT AS MANY AS POSSIBLE IS BECAUSE YOUR PARENTS PAY MORE AND MORE. DO NOT TELL US WHAT HAPPEND IF U HAVENT BEEN THERE. YOU TRULY HAVE NOO IDEAA. ITS A FEELING SO HOPELESS THAT YOU WOULDNT THINK WOULD EXIST.
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Anon, FYI
Incidenatl fees are mandatory charges. It is on the monthly bill. Another part of the fraud.
All of my incidental fees went to "staff watch."
When my son needed to blow his nose in SCl the staff in work sheets would not give him a kleenex.
My child sneezed all over ,hence he was beat up for making a mess. I heard this story recently.
Tell me what is the purpose in not giving a kid with green snot in his face a kleenex. Where is the emotional growth, behavior modifying in that .
Power control freaks are staffing this program.
The Anon who is explaining the consequences,is pointing out why it takes sooooo very long for a kid to achieve level success,to graduate the program. Another Fraud.
It is all about keeping the momey coming in,under the desguise of consequences. Its Fraud.
Needless to say I find this out after the fact.
Who would of thought basic toiltries are not being given to the kids. Not me.
Call me dumb,it was beyond my comprhenshion someone(s) could behave so viciously.
Degrading,deprivation,humiliation, those are the tactics used against these kids in this program.
SICK VERY SICK.
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No, that is correct, you will be billed for looking in the mirror, just as you would for any other consequence. There are fines for each consequence, Cat. 1's, Cat. 2's, etc.
As far is the dirty water goes, I never said anything about bathtubs. The water shooting out of the shower head is filthy. See, the facility houses so many kids that they "purify" their own water from the nearby Clark Fork River, as well as generate their own electricity, etc. The water is not purified enough, obviously, causing skin, hair and teeth problems.
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[ This Message was edited by: KarenZ on 2003-10-18 17:36 ]
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OMG! This is really grasping at straws! In the time my son was at both SCL and another wwasps program, NEVER ONCE did I get charged for CAT's! I didnt even get charged when he punched a hole in the wall, which I would have paid!
ACNE, get real! My son got acne IN the program, he was 15 for godsakes! My daughter is 15 and not in a program and has acne, no worse than his. I'd rather he be alive with acne than dead with clear skin! Do kids get acne in juvenile detention? Do they get acne living on the streets and prostituting? Do they get acne living at home?
It's like a husband blaming his wife for losing his hair! :rofl:
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:oops: :oops: :oops:
Good Follower. keep reminding us why we woke up.
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Typical.
Sence its normal for teens to have acne, they turn a blind eye to the fact that new and worsening acne indicates a lack of appropriate hygiene and nutrition, and the presence of stress.
Its the same way they hide behind how commonly teens lie to and manipulate their parents. All parents experience this with their kids to some degree; and the parents of a troubled kid especially so - and they use this to excuse away the many upsetting things the kids write home about. Its easy for the parents to believe this, b/c they have had so much experience with the kid lying. The Program takes advantage of this weakness in the average teen's character and turns them all into the boy crying wolf.
Keep in mind program parents - there was a wolf.
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On 2003-10-08 16:22:00, Anonymous wrote:
"OMG! This is really grasping at straws! In the time my son was at both SCL and another wwasps program, NEVER ONCE did I get charged for CAT's! I didnt even get charged when he punched a hole in the wall, which I would have paid!
ACNE, get real! My son got acne IN the program, he was 15 for godsakes! My daughter is 15 and not in a program and has acne, no worse than his. I'd rather he be alive with acne than dead with clear skin! Do kids get acne in juvenile detention? Do they get acne living on the streets and prostituting? Do they get acne living at home?
It's like a husband blaming his wife for losing his hair! :rofl: "
Better than being "dead with clear skin."
This is what cult specialists call an "induced exit phobia."
The odds of a kid getting sent into a program dying if he had NOT been sent into the program are vanishingly low.
The fact that you are supportive of some "program" and you really do think a program kid "would be dead" if he wasn't in the program goes farther to substantiate, for me, the bad things I've heard about the programs than ANYTHING I've heard from the survivors or survivor organizations.
I would suggest that you talk to a good exit counselor and give them the things that you think are risk factors for your kid "being dead" if he hadn't been in the "program" and ask him to do a literature search (or send you to a legitimate research service that will) and calculate the actual odds of such a kid "being dead" by a certain age.
Then compare the *real* odds to what you have come to believe the probabilities are.
A good check would be to write a ballpark guesstimate of how likely you think death would be for a kid with those risk factors by a particular age. Just ballpark.
Then when the real odds come back, compare them.
You're paying thousands a month in program costs. You can *certainly* come up with a bit to double check whether what you've been led to believe is true or not.
If you don't trust an exit counselor, then go to the university in your state that has a research psychology program and hire a psychology grad student (the department head or one of the professors can recommend someone) to do the literature search for you. Grad students are poor, need money, and work relatively cheap. Particularly grad students in research psychology.
Get a totally disinterested second opinion.
And if it turns out that your estimate was *way* inflated over the real odds, then please go talk to a reputable exit counselor and at least consider whether you want to rethink some of your choices.
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I didn't say my son would be dead if he hadn't gone. You highlighted with I wrote. I don't know if he would be dead. His choices were headed that way and I won't go into all the ugliness of it, but WHAT IF I hadn't intervened and he had died? I wasn't willing to take that chance. What I said was a figure of speech, an example, not a psychic prediction.
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does anyone realize that every programmed parent or "graduate" says they would be dead if they didnt go?. Hmm could this be why the facilitaros in the seminars make them stand up and say that. SOMEONES GONNA TELL ME THATS NOT BRAINWASH.
EVERY BRAINWASHED SUCCESS STORY SAYS THEY WOULD BE DEAD IF THEY DIDNT GO TO THE PRISON "PROGRAM"
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On 2003-10-08 17:54:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I didn't say my son would be dead if he hadn't gone. You highlighted with I wrote. I don't know if he would be dead. His choices were headed that way and I won't go into all the ugliness of it, but WHAT IF I hadn't intervened and he had died? I wasn't willing to take that chance. What I said was a figure of speech, an example, not a psychic prediction. "
But your saying it like that reveals that on some level you believe it. And you just reiterated it with, "His choices were headed that way..."
Were they? Really? How many kids who were making the same choices as your kid DIDN'T go into a "program" and DIDN'T die?
I believe you have a very inflated idea of the probability of actual death for a teen from various behaviors.
Every time my kid goes outside on a cloudy day, there COULD be a lightning strike and she could die. She could be sitting on the couch watching TV and have a brain embolism and die. Every time I drive with her in the car, we could get in a wreck and die. But the odds are REALLY, REALLY low.
I'm not worried about it because I have a realistic idea of relative risk.
That you are worried about it, and that that worry is really common in program parents, and that the real risks are pretty darned low, suggests to me that you (like other program parents) have a very inflated idea of what the risk of death to your kid really is/was.
What do you have to lose from finding out what the REAL risk is or was? What you have to risk is you may find out you were wrong, and that would be embarrassing.
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Yep. Fear sells... whatever it is you want to sell. Remember Y2K and the Anthrax/biological weapons scare? You couldn't buy a roll of duct tape or bottled water anywhere.
I don't believe for a minute it's a "figure of speech". It's an expression of grossly exaggerated fear- which programs capitalize on- putting out studies that wilderness is safer than driving or playing football; suggesting that parents can't protect their child 24/7, but they can.... for a price of course.
***WHAT IF I hadn't intervened and he had died?
What if he gets run over by a truck the day after he gets home or contracts a fatal disease? There are no certainties in life. We begin the dying process with the first breath we take. Some have a longer journey than others. One might as well be dead if they live their life in fear of death (or someone elses). Is that "being at cause in your life"? Are you really at cause when you abdicate responsibility, turning your child over to strangers who are profiting off your fear?
How is your child "being at cause in their life" in that situation? They aren't. They obviously don't choose it (the majority anyway) and are being controlled by your fears and the hired dictators at the program, "You will participate and experience personal growth, or I'll twist your arm out of the socket." It just doesn't work that way.
And, worse case scenerio, what if your son HAD died? Would the guilt be unbearable? Would you feel responsible? Is that what makes the end justify the means- no matter how abusive or austere or disrepectful?
I would suggest that what is more important is quality of life while you're here for your blip in history of humankind. And that is what so many teens are needing, imho. Families, communities, schools, social policies that recognize their needs and demonstrate genuine respect.
Instead of letting fear run your life why not look at your child's reaction to their life situation as a challenge. Be their ally. Help them figure out what it is they need to feel worthy, loved, appreciated, productive, constructive. What is it they need in order to master their environment, in Montessori terms. Make that the challenge. Living with a teen does not have to be a battle zone, unless you choose to sit on the sidelines and call the plays without being intimately involved, or sit on the sidelines and whimper because your son has lied to you AGAIN and you just don't understand.
If the thousands of parents who defer to programs; and/or who spend every spare moment selling programs; would put that money and energy into taking an active role as allies to teens- demanding better schools that meet the REAL needs of kids, demanding better social policies, etc, etc, etc- we would see happier, content teens. Yeh...I know it's a pipe dream, but I won't give it up.
To punish them because their family, society has short changed them is not the solution. Good god, that's equivalent to spanking a child and then punishing them further for crying about the spanking. To incarcerate them, isolated from the world, and subject them to mind twisting and numbing psycobabble (that few ADULTS can comprehend and implement)and abuse, is not by any stretch of the imagination, a compassionate solution. At the rate this country is going, the teen years will be labeled a period of mental disorder and all teens will be mandatorially incarcerated between the ages of 10-18...20 if they can stretch it that long. Because the adults are trying to alleviate their fears.
I'll tell you how one program(ed) parent reacted to her son being killed at a wilderness program- a death due to medical neglect that could have been prevented with simple common sense.
She chose to excuse it as his "karma". She did not want to feel like a "VICTIM" in the situation. ::puke::
Why would it be so easy for her to forgive them, yet difficult to forgive her son for acting out the pain he carried inside. His "troublesome" behavior- which was a direct reaction to his life situation- was much more forgiveable in my mind than the behavior of the program/staff. She felt sorry for the trouble (investigation/revoked license) the program was experiencing- they were so good to her. Why no empathy for the fear, confusion, and anger her son lived with? Why did she "choose" to interpret his behavior as defiant and not for what it really was- a manifestation of the hopelessness, grief, fear, confusion? Why did she feel that strangers could give him the love, respect, appreciation, and direction that she herself couldn't?
If that is being "at cause" in your life, I want no part of it. I interpret it as a woo-woo, lame-ass excuse. The least a program parent could do is be honest- "I'm clueless, hopeless...I figure these strangers can do a better job than I can...guess I'll roll the dice, how bad could it really be"... and say that, to the public and especially to your kid. Like the child who is shriveled and crying in humiliation after a good ass whoopin', the last thing they want to hear is, "you've done this for their own good."
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[ This Message was edited by: KarenZ on 2003-10-18 17:37 ]