Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Anne Bonney on September 28, 2010, 12:52:05 PM
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I came very close to dying a couple of times from drug overdose. I've been diagnosed as insane in the hospital before, and I have been in jail. So to some of us this cliche rings true. I can't speak for other people or judge whether they should have been sent to a program or not, for all I know I am the only kid in the universe who really needed to be in the program. But the truth is, I did need it, and without it I would have continued with these behaviors and ended up not insane or in jail, but dead. That's because when you go insane or go to jail, eventually you get out. When I get out I go back to using drugs with a voracious appetite, one that would suggest I don't really value my own life at all. Perhaps that's true, I can't really say and sometimes I do wonder about it, but I believe there is something inside me, something dark, that has never completely disappeared. This darkness prompts me to self destruct, at a rapid pace, and when I get in that state it usually takes an outside force to save me from myself.
So for me it's not a matter of low expectations, it's accepting the inevitable. My most important priority is maintaining some kind of control over this darkness and preventing myself from falling down that rabbit hole once again. I've done fairly well at just that for the past couple of years, and part of that was accepting who I am, and to do that requires an honest examination of myself, despite the depressing conclusions I sometimes reach. I used to blame the program, and my parents, and whatever else I could to prevent me from having to realize that I was the cause of most of my own problems. I realized it's not the part of me that wants to succeed that causes problems, it's that darkness deep inside that wants nothing but to destroy it's host, like a cancer. When times are good this darkness goes into remission, but it can come like an overwhelming tidal wave, when it's least expected. So to me it's not about low expectations so much as a warning of what could have been, and what might be, if I do lose control again and the darkness takes control over me.
Do you think that forced/coerced 'therapy' helps?
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I had a pretty rocky relationship with my parents as a teenager. Mistakes were made on both ends. I was far from perfect but I also felt a lot of pressure to be a son that I couldn't be. Once I turned 18 things changed. I can remember my dad saying that he might not approve of my choices but that I was a man and as a result he would butt out from now on. This really was a big turning point and in all honestly made me start behaving more like a man in a lot of ways. But nobody can control the behavior of someone else and any decisions I have made in life either good or bad have been my own.
In the case of a fully grown adult who is behaving badly for whatever reason boundaries can be put in place and they can sometimes get results. A real turning point for me was when a sibling said that she could not trust me to babysit her kids because she did not know if I would be high or not. This was devastating and really got me thinking about how much i had let things slide. I have met some people whose loved ones took this idea to extremes and let them hit "rock bottom" by cutting off all contact. Most went through a period of being really fucked up for a while. Maybe their choices got them there but as a guy who is hardly a saint myself I still felt bad for them and grateful that my loved ones kept the door open.
I hear people saying that kids who did badly in therapeutic schools did so because they did not accept the help offered to them. maybe it is true and maybe it is not but it misses the point to me. Firstly if the aim is to get somebody to change and this aim is not met then it has failed. Secondly no one solution is the right fit for everyone. If a kid cant clearly articulate why this is the case in their case without somebody claiming they are manipulating or lying then of course they are destined to fail. Thirdly too much of anything cant be healthy. Even adults who see a therapist dont go to them every single day. Being in an environment that consists of continuous therapy unless you are severely mentally ill or detoxing from some heavy drugs is enough to make anyone crazy. Even a live in rehab program usually only lasts for up to six months tops. 18 months away from the real world possibly does force some level of change but i doubt it is for the better!!!!
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Idiotic question, really....
Read "A Clockwork Orange" for the answer to the question of moral choice.
Or watch the fucking movie.
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Idiotic question, really....
Gee, thanks.
I was trying to spark a conversation since some people seem to be in favor of forced therapy. To me, it's an oxymoron but others feel differently and I was trying to find out what they think and why.
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Idiotic question, really....
Gee, thanks.
I was trying to spark a conversation since some people seem to be in favor of forced therapy. To me, it's an oxymoron but others feel differently and I was trying to find out what they think and why.
Hey, don't take that the wrong way..
An idiotic question? Yes...
Hell, you know it, and I know it...
Nonetheless, a question that should be answered!
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Idiotic question, really....
Gee, thanks.
I was trying to spark a conversation since some people seem to be in favor of forced therapy. To me, it's an oxymoron but others feel differently and I was trying to find out what they think and why.
Hey, don't take that the wrong way..
An idiotic question? Yes...
Hell, you know it, and I know it...
Nonetheless, a question that should be answered!
Sorry......I'm in a very cranky mood today due to some of the changes around here and I took it the wrong way. :flame: :-*
Say hello to the Missus!
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maybe it is a question of should not can. Im sure that you can force someone to change in some circumstances. Maximillion claims this to be so. But I dont think this is morally right any more than a dictatorship is morally right. Even when a kid is under 18 and the parent still has the right to enforce legitimate rules, they do not have the right to physically or emotionally abuse or imprison their children.
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maybe it is a question of should not can. Im sure that you can force someone to change in some circumstances. Maximillion claims this to be so. But I dont think this is morally right any more than a dictatorship is morally right. Even when a kid is under 18 and the parent still has the right to enforce legitimate rules, they do not have the right to physically or emotionally abuse or imprison their children.
Yeah, but even so.....forcing someone to change doesn't really work. The kids 'change' out of fear, as Reformed said, and forced change doesn't last and very often damages the psyche.
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I believe forcing someone to change along with an explanation on why the change is occurring helps to facilitate and solidify the change. You need to have both elements in my opinion. For example if your child doesnt want to wear shoes to school you can tell him he has to. Also wearing shoes protects his feet from cuts and its the rules in many public places. He can call the rules stupid and throw a fit but you can just make the rule that he doesnt leave the house without shoes on. Eventually he will grow accustomed to wearing shoes and he will just put them on automatically and the change will solidify.
I think forcing a child into therapy can also work. The child may resist at first but a good therapist will show the child that therapy can be beneficial to him/her as she starts to resolve problems.
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Moral choice is necessary to humanity.
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I believe forcing someone to change along with an explanation on why the change is occurring helps to facilitate and solidify the change. You need to have both elements in my opinion. For example if your child doesnt want to wear shoes to school you can tell him he has to. Also wearing shoes protects his feet from cuts and its the rules in many public places. He can call the rules stupid and throw a fit but you can just make the rule that he doesnt leave the house without shoes on. Eventually he will grow accustomed to wearing shoes and he will just put them on automatically and the change will solidify.
We're not talking about shoes......we're talking about changing molding a kids psyche (another one of your strange analogies). Big difference.
I think forcing a child into therapy can also work. The child may resist at first but a good therapist will show the child that therapy can be beneficial to him/her as she starts to resolve problems.
How so? Even AA says that people can't change unless they want to change. How is it different with kids? Especially since the kids are attempting to find their own way in life and break away from their parents who seem to want to mold their kids into what the parents want them to be. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink.
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We're not talking about shoes......we're talking about changing molding a kids psyche (another one of your strange analogies). Big difference.
It is not any different substitute the word School for shoe. If the program can get these kids to sit in a class room and start reading and learning many of them will begin to enjoy learning new things. They may find a new interest and passion to follow.
How so? Even AA says that people can't change unless they want to change. How is it different with kids? Especially since the kids are attempting to find their own way in life and break away from their parents who seem to want to mold their kids into what the parents want them to be. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink.
But if you do lead the horse to water they "may" drink. That is the hope.
If you expose the child to therapy a good therapist can help the child to see the benefits to his meeting with him/her and eventually will trust the therapist and then want to work with her. It doesnt happen with all the kids, as we know from reading here. Some will reject the therapy, dig their heels in and learn nothing. But like anything else with children, you can insist that they give it a try and let them see if they find a benefit in it.
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Moral choice is necessary to humanity.
:bump:
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It is not any different substitute the word School for shoe. If the program can get these kids to sit in a class room and start reading and learning many of them will begin to enjoy learning new things. They may find a new interest and passion to follow.
Yes, there is a big difference. Ill-fitting shoes will not damage the kids for life.
But if you do lead the horse to water they "may" drink. That is the hope.
If you expose the child to therapy a good therapist can help the child to see the benefits to his meeting with him/her and eventually will trust the therapist and then want to work with her. It doesnt happen with all the kids, as we know from reading here. Some will reject the therapy, dig their heels in and learn nothing. But like anything else with children, you can insist that they give it a try and let them see if they find a benefit in it.
And what if the kid feels that it's damaging to them? What if they truly feel that it IS abuse (and that brings up the subject of having an abuse/patient rights hotline which the kids have zero access to) and it's hurting them? Do you still insist that they participate? Do the kids feelings not matter?
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And what if the kid feels that it's damaging to them?
Hah! As a professional in the troubled teen industry, I say tough shit if they feel like the treatment is damaging to them! Maybe they should have thought about that before they lit their first joint, or before they decided to stay out all night without calling home and worrying their poor parents sick!
Why should the parents worry about damaging the kid when the kid wouldn't give a second thought to the damage that their druggie behavior is causing the family? Parents need to be tough once in a while! Sometimes the end justifies the means.
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Yes, there is a big difference. Ill-fitting shoes will not damage the kids for life.
Substitute the word school for shoes. If the program can get these kids to sit in a class room and start reading and learning many of them will begin to enjoy learning new things. They may find a new interest and passion to follow.
And what if the kid feels that it's damaging to them? What if they truly feel that it IS abuse (and that brings up the subject of having an abuse/patient rights hotline which the kids have zero access to) and it's hurting them? Do you still insist that they participate? Do the kids feelings not matter?
They should talk to their parents or to their therapist or staff member. The therapist at ASR was not affiliated with the program and lived outside of it. The child could just walk away. There is a general store about a mile away with a phone. The staff will try to talk you back but if you refuse then they will notify authorities and you could speak to them.
There are many, many options for a child if they have been abused.
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Whooter, the water you are leading those horses to is poisoned. Because they are minors, you "insist that they give it a try and see if they find a benefit in it". So when they don't find a benefit and instead find the complete destruction of their self esteem, their self confidence, what do you do for them then? Turn them out on the streets after taking away all of their social skills?
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And what if the kid feels that it's damaging to them?
Hah! As a professional in the troubled teen industry, I say tough shit if they feel like the treatment is damaging to them! Maybe they should have thought about that before they lit their first joint, or before they decided to stay out all night without calling home and worrying their poor parents sick!
Why should the parents worry about damaging the kid when the kid wouldn't give a second thought to the damage that their druggie behavior is causing the family? Parents need to be tough once in a while! Sometimes the end justifies the means.
Because it's the parent's job to look out for the kids safety, not the other way around.
How's the "church" attendance these days Virgil? :seg:
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Whooter, the water you are leading those horses to is poisoned. Because they are minors, you "insist that they give it a try and see if they find a benefit in it". So when they don't find a benefit and instead find the complete destruction of their self esteem, their self confidence, what do you do for them then? Turn them out on the streets after taking away all of their social skills?
Very well put!!! :notworthy:
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Turn them out on the streets after taking away all of their social skills?
You've made others suffer. It's only fair that you should suffer proper. You know I've been told everything you've done, sitting here at night round the family table, pretty shocking it was to listen to. It made me real sick, a lot of it did.
Let him learn the errors of his way, and that a bad boy like he's been don't deserve such a good mum and dad as he's had.
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You've made others suffer. It's only fair that you should suffer proper.
Now Virgil.....since you're now a "priest", you know very well the phrase turn the other cheek.
And on the subject of 'druggies'......
Matthew 25:40 And the King will make answer and say to them, Truly I say to you, Because you did it to the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.
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And on the subject of 'druggies'......
Matthew 25:40 And the King will make answer and say to them, Truly I say to you, Because you did it to the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.
That's right!! When a kid plays cards with Satan, he gets dealt an awful hand! He's evil to himself, to his druggie friends, and to Jesus!!
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And on the subject of 'druggies'......
Matthew 25:40 And the King will make answer and say to them, Truly I say to you, Because you did it to the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.
That's right!! When a kid plays cards with Satan, he gets dealt an awful hand! He's evil to himself, to his druggie friends, and to Jesus!!
:rofl:
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Whooter, the water you are leading those horses to is poisoned. Because they are minors, you "insist that they give it a try and see if they find a benefit in it". So when they don't find a benefit and instead find the complete destruction of their self esteem, their self confidence, what do you do for them then? Turn them out on the streets after taking away all of their social skills?
Thats an awful thought. I couldnt imagine a program today destroying a childs' self confidence/self esteem. The programs that I have seen work very hard to instill a value of ones self and find a strength and interest within the child so that they can develop a healthy self esteem. many of the kids go to programs with very little self esteem and self confidence and have dropped out of school or stopped studying.
I think the universal struggle is the transition back into the real world. This is where many programs need to focus their attention and improve.
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Nobody has to force Whooter to change. He changes Fornits identities constantly. Here's a sample of two months' worth of Whooter's sockpuppets:
RobertBruce.
RobertBruce .
RobertBruces
BEN WAjowski
Fred Bicep
Peg Sympson
John C.
Mike D.
Ursas
Slander Programs
John B.
Jim Bunson
Dot MacKinnon
Jammie Sympson (eventually it will be the whole “Sympson Family” I suppose)
Mark Rosen
Roger Glasdco
John Randall
Pete DeGroot
Mark DeGroot (I guess the “DeGroot Family” too)
Warner Stubbin
Steve Backlan
James Driding
Rob Jamison
Boarding Schools Pros and Cons (he’s the “con”)
Bess H.
Iao;nori
Jim Baylor
Sid Michaels
Fred Thompson
John McCain
Sarah Palin
Mitt Romney
Al Gore
Dick Cheney
Mike Wilson
Rudy Bentz
Heal Online
Margaret Wilson
Revenge Fantasy Girlz
Diddle
Robert Hess
Ajax13.
Tom K
Aghast.
Marion
He's a dishonest troll.
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Whooter, the water you are leading those horses to is poisoned. Because they are minors, you "insist that they give it a try and see if they find a benefit in it". So when they don't find a benefit and instead find the complete destruction of their self esteem, their self confidence, what do you do for them then? Turn them out on the streets after taking away all of their social skills?
Thats an awful thought. I couldnt imagine a program today destroying a childs' self confidence/self esteem. The programs that I have seen work very hard to instill a value of ones self and find a strength and interest within the child so that they can develop a healthy self esteem. many of the kids go to programs with very little self esteem and self confidence and have dropped out of school or stopped studying.
I think the universal struggle is the transition back into the real world. This is where many programs need to focus their attention and improve.
Some of them might not mean to (and some actually do because a lot of them get off on the guru complex), but it doesn't matter the reason. Even if their intentions are good, the LGAT programs use the "break them down, then build them up" philosophy and that IS dangerous......especially to someone who is "troubled" to begin with.
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Whooter, the water you are leading those horses to is poisoned. Because they are minors, you "insist that they give it a try and see if they find a benefit in it". So when they don't find a benefit and instead find the complete destruction of their self esteem, their self confidence, what do you do for them then? Turn them out on the streets after taking away all of their social skills?
Thats an awful thought. I couldnt imagine a program today destroying a childs' self confidence/self esteem. The programs that I have seen work very hard to instill a value of ones self and find a strength and interest within the child so that they can develop a healthy self esteem. many of the kids go to programs with very little self esteem and self confidence and have dropped out of school or stopped studying.
I think the universal struggle is the transition back into the real world. This is where many programs need to focus their attention and improve.
Some of them might not mean to (and some actually do because a lot of them get off on the guru complex), but it doesn't matter the reason. Even if their intentions are good, the LGAT programs use the "break them down, then build them up" philosophy and that IS dangerous......especially to someone who is "troubled" to begin with.
I understand the controversy Surrounding the LGAT's. I think if they are not handled properly they could be damaging. But I dont think they are all damaging.
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Moral choice is necessary to humanity.
:tup:
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Moral choice is necessary to humanity.
:tup:
And.......?
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Moral choice is necessary to humanity.
:tup:
And.......?
Well, aren't you "pushy" today. I don't have anything to say at this time. Just liked Frodie's post and also like your thread. I'll post later.
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Moral choice is necessary to humanity.
:tup:
And.......?
Well, aren't you "pushy" today. I don't have anything to say at this time. Just liked Frodie's post and also like your thread. I'll post later.
I wasn't trying to be pushy.....just trying to understand what you're trying to say.
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This is a great topic. My answer to this question is NO - you can't force people to change.
It's possible to force compliance, but that's not the same thing as changing. You can't force someone to change, especially if they don't want to. Change must be completely voluntary, period!
Speaking from my own personal experience, trying to force another person to change
(when they don't want to) will only reinforce their resistance to it. At best you can lay out the facts, weigh out the pros and cons, & do your best to explain your case to another person why changing would benefit them. That's all you can do. Ultimately, the decision of whether to change or not to change belongs to the individual in question. It's their choice to make, and their choice alone.
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This is a great topic. My answer to this question is NO - you can't force people to change.
It's possible to force compliance, but that's not the same thing as changing. You can't force someone to change, especially if they don't want to. Change must be completely voluntary, period!
Speaking from my own personal experience, trying to force another person to change
(when they don't want to) will only reinforce their resistance to it. At best you can lay out the facts, weigh out the pros and cons, & do your best to explain your case to another person why changing would benefit them. That's all you can do. Ultimately, the decision of whether to change or not to change belongs to the individual in question. It's their choice to make, and their choice alone.
I think it is possible to force the change and then reinforce it after the fact. They may or may not take to it. but it can be effective.
Like if a kid doesnt want to go to school. If he is forced to go via a program placement then while he/she is in class they may find that learning is not so bad and that they are smarter than they thought or find an interest in reading. With children you need to insist on them changing and doing things a certain way. Its part of the learning process and living in society.
The child could be forced to join a sport and then find out that they like it.
The child could be forced to go to therapy and then find their therapist is helpful.
etc.
etc.
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This is a great topic. My answer to this question is NO - you can't force people to change.
It's possible to force compliance, but that's not the same thing as changing. You can't force someone to change, especially if they don't want to. Change must be completely voluntary, period!
Speaking from my own personal experience, trying to force another person to change
(when they don't want to) will only reinforce their resistance to it. At best you can lay out the facts, weigh out the pros and cons, & do your best to explain your case to another person why changing would benefit them. That's all you can do. Ultimately, the decision of whether to change or not to change belongs to the individual in question. It's their choice to make, and their choice alone.
I think it is possible to force the change and then reinforce it after the fact. They may or may not take to it. but it can be effective.
Like if a kid doesnt want to go to school. If he is forced to go via a program placement then while he/she is in class they may find that learning is not so bad and that they are smarter than they thought or find an interest in reading. With children you need to insist on them changing and doing things a certain way. Its part of the learning process and living in society.
The child could be forced to join a sport and then find out that they like it.
The child could be forced to go to therapy and then find their therapist is helpful.
Regular schools don't delve into the psyche of the kids. The TTI does, especially the ones using LGAT-type methods, which is mostly what is used in the TTI. Big difference.
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This is a great topic. My answer to this question is NO - you can't force people to change.
It's possible to force compliance, but that's not the same thing as changing. You can't force someone to change, especially if they don't want to. Change must be completely voluntary, period!
Speaking from my own personal experience, trying to force another person to change
(when they don't want to) will only reinforce their resistance to it. At best you can lay out the facts, weigh out the pros and cons, & do your best to explain your case to another person why changing would benefit them. That's all you can do. Ultimately, the decision of whether to change or not to change belongs to the individual in question. It's their choice to make, and their choice alone.
:notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy:
Like I said, even AA says that it won't "work" unless the person wants to change.
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Regular schools don't delve into the psyche of the kids. The TTI does, especially the ones using LGAT-type methods, which is mostly what is used in the TTI. Big difference.
It may be true, but back on topic just to finish up, I think in most cases a childs behavior can be changed via force and then have them embrace the change after the fact. Like the examples I cited above.
As you pointed out, Anne, the methods used can vary from benign to abusive depending on the program. I think if a child is abused into changing then the change would not be permanent. The child may in fact want to go back to the previous "Bad" behavior because of the methods used to instill the change and the work may backfire on them.
This is a good discussion......
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It may be true, but back on topic just to finish up, I think in most cases a childs behavior can be changed via force and then have them embrace the change after the fact. Like the examples I cited above.
As you pointed out, Anne, the methods used can vary from benign to abusive depending on the program. I think if a child is abused into changing then the change would not be permanent. The child may in fact want to go back to the previous "Bad" behavior because of the methods used to instill the change and the work may backfire on them.
This is a good discussion......
Of all the programs we've discussed here, I can't think of one that doesn't use some form of LGATs. If I'm mistaken, please correct me and post the programs that don't use it.
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It may be true, but back on topic just to finish up, I think in most cases a childs behavior can be changed via force and then have them embrace the change after the fact. Like the examples I cited above.
As you pointed out, Anne, the methods used can vary from benign to abusive depending on the program. I think if a child is abused into changing then the change would not be permanent. The child may in fact want to go back to the previous "Bad" behavior because of the methods used to instill the change and the work may backfire on them.
This is a good discussion......
Of all the programs we've discussed here, I can't think of one that doesn't use some form of LGATs. If I'm mistaken, please correct me and post the programs that don't use it.
I really dont know the inner methods used in each program. But I can say that I would not condemn a program for using LGAT's. They can vary from very benign to very intense. So we would have to take a look at what they subject the students to before we could determine how harsh they are and begin a process of determining if they are abusive or not.
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I really dont know the inner methods used in each program. But I can say that I would not condemn a program for using LGAT's. They can vary from very benign to very intense. So we would have to take a look at what they subject the students to before we could determine how harsh they are and begin a process of determining if they are abusive or not.
The whole purpose of LGATs is to break the person down, in order to build them up. That may be fine for an adult that can consent to it, but to force a child who already has issues is extremely harmful, IMO.
Can we leave it at that or do you have to have the last word?
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there is something creepy about trying to change the essence of who someone is. A lot of places appear to talk about giving parents their old child back like they are returning them to pre adolescence. To me that is just wierd. Like deliberately giving your kid a head injury so they will always have a mental age of 12. legitimate rehab does not do this. i am the same person who made the choice to take drugs but i am now making better choices. None of these things were forced upon me. I have the same personality. I am not the spiritual type but one of the few ideas i think a religious upbringing got correct was the idea that we are all unique. So anne i can see what you are saying, maybe it is not even possible but i guess from my pov it doesnt matter whether you can do it it matters more whether it is OK to even try.
Whooter one of the schools you recommend has a history of treating kids pretty awfully. As late as 2003 it was calling girls whores, monitoring phone calls and dismissing suicide attempts as attention getting.
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I really dont know the inner methods used in each program. But I can say that I would not condemn a program for using LGAT's. They can vary from very benign to very intense. So we would have to take a look at what they subject the students to before we could determine how harsh they are and begin a process of determining if they are abusive or not.
The whole purpose of LGATs is to break the person down, in order to build them up. That may be fine for an adult that can consent to it, but to force a child who already has issues is extremely harmful, IMO.
Can we leave it at that or do you have to have the last word?
Can I have the last word, please. OK.....Boo on forcing kids to change. Everything has already been covered. Great thread Anne.
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I really dont know the inner methods used in each program. But I can say that I would not condemn a program for using LGAT's. They can vary from very benign to very intense. So we would have to take a look at what they subject the students to before we could determine how harsh they are and begin a process of determining if they are abusive or not.
The whole purpose of LGATs is to break the person down, in order to build them up. That may be fine for an adult that can consent to it, but to force a child who already has issues is extremely harmful, IMO.
Can we leave it at that or do you have to have the last word?
Can I have the last word, please. OK.....Boo on forcing kids to change. Everything has already been covered. Great thread Anne.
::) ::) ::)
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I'd like to have the last word here - even if it is a bit off topic.
Anne, I just wanted to commend you for the maturity and restraint you've shown in
responding to the taunts of this immature, programmed, fucking whack-job, internet
tuff guy, DannyB II. It takes a lot more patience than people realize.
And yes this is indeed a great thread! Thanks Anne.
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As a recap. We have demonstrated in this thread that people can be forced to change and the change can be permanent especially if the change is eventually embraced. There are several ways to accomplish this. Some are attained utilizing abusive methods and others are not.
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As a recap. We have demonstrated in this thread that people can be forced to change and the change can be permanent especially if the change is eventually embraced. There are several ways to accomplish this. Some are attained utilizing abusive methods and others are not.
...but, most importantly, it is not advisable to force change upon people.
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As a recap. We have demonstrated in this thread that people can be forced to change and the change can be permanent especially if the change is eventually embraced. There are several ways to accomplish this. Some are attained utilizing abusive methods and others are not.
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...but, most importantly, it is not advisable to force change upon people.
I agree, It is best to ask the individual to modify their behavior themselves and give them the appropriate time to get it done.
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As a recap. We have demonstrated in this thread that people can be forced to change and the change can be permanent especially if the change is eventually embraced. There are several ways to accomplish this. Some are attained utilizing abusive methods and others are not.
...
What?!? We have? When? People can be forced to COMPLY, that is a bit different. And what gives anyone the right to tell a developing teen what kind of person to be? It is up to the teen to decide that, the best we can do is educate them and encourage (not force) them to make good decisions. These programs are overkill, the change they are trying to induce is not worth the damage they inflict to the psyche of the child. The child might eventually decide to stop skipping school, or stop smoking pot. They can't just stop the program, once they are there they are trapped. And there is no way out except COMPLY! OBEY! for months and months.
-
As a recap. We have demonstrated in this thread that people can be forced to change and the change can be permanent especially if the change is eventually embraced. There are several ways to accomplish this. Some are attained utilizing abusive methods and others are not.
...
What?!? We have? When? People can be forced to COMPLY, that is a bit different. And what gives anyone the right to tell a developing teen what kind of person to be? It is up to the teen to decide that, the best we can do is educate them and encourage (not force) them to make good decisions. These programs are overkill, the change they are trying to induce is not worth the damage they inflict to the psyche of the child. The child might eventually decide to stop skipping school, or stop smoking pot. They can't just stop the program, once they are there they are trapped. And there is no way out except COMPLY! OBEY! for months and months.
The question was "Can people be forced to change" This doesnt specify a program or a therapists office or at home. Its a general question.
We outlined that people can be forced to change against their will in abusive ways and they can also be forced to change using non abusive methods.
A child can be told they will start making their bed in the morning. The child may resist and the parent may enforce this with having the child stay in after school. Eventually the child automatically makes his bed each morning without being asked.
On the other hand a child could be threatened and beaten and burned with cigarettes to the point where the child complies and finally starts cleaning their room each morning.
...
-
A couple of other examples:
A child who enters a program may and be forced to go to school 5 days a week against their will. They may be forced to read. Over time the child may pick up a book and read it on their own and look forward to learning each week.
Another example is the child may be forced to see a therapist each week and may resist at first but eventually the child may find they are benefitting from the therapists visits and start to look forward to going and start attending without asking.
...
-
A couple of other examples:
A child who enters a program may and be forced to go to school 5 days a week against their will. They may be forced to read. Over time the child may pick up a book and read it on their own and look forward to learning each week.
Another example is the child may be forced to see a therapist each week and may resist at first but eventually the child may find they are benefitting from the therapists visits and start to look forward to going and start attending without asking.
...
::deadhorse::
Whooter - you are really grasping at straws here, and you appear quite desperate at that.
It was never demonstrated on this thread that people can be forced to change. Compliance can be forced, but change (true change) can only come about when the individual in question decides for themselves that they want to change.
None of the examples you've given demonstrate forced change, instead they show where compliance is forced only. A child who likes their therapist and decides that they want to cooperate and try to change - still has made their own decision, regardless of whether or not
they were forced into seeing the therapist in the first place. Conversley, a child who hates their therapist will continue to resist, or perhaps will tell the therapist what they think the therapist wants to hear - in order to give the appearance that they are changing (presumably in hopes of illustrating that therapy is no longer necessary). Big difference there - Whooter.
Lying about what others have agreed upon, and drawing false conclusions from the
discussion at hand, in order to add non-existent support to your own warped views
doesn't help your positionn at all Whooter. All it does is expose you for the complete fraud that you are - Mr. Reuben.
-
Whooter - you are really grasping at straws here, and you appear quite desperate at that.
It was never demonstrated on this thread that people can be forced to change. Compliance can be forced, but change (true change) can only come about when the individual in question decides for themselves that they want to change.
None of the examples you've given demonstrate forced change, instead they show where compliance is forced only. A child who likes their therapist and decides that they want to cooperate and try to change - still has made their own decision, regardless of whether or not
they were forced into seeing the therapist in the first place. Conversley, a child who hates their therapist will continue to resist, or perhaps will tell the therapist what they think the therapist wants to hear - in order to give the appearance that they are changing (presumably in hopes of illustrating that therapy is no longer necessary). Big difference there - Whooter.
Lying about what others have agreed upon, and drawing false conclusions from the
discussion at hand, in order to add non-existent support to your own warped views
doesn't help your positionn at all Whooter. All it does is expose you for the complete fraud that you are - Mr. Reuben.
This is just a discussion Serb, no need to get upset and start taking shots at me. You made some good points.
Change is when the person embraces something new and takes it on to be their own.
Compliance is when the person is doing what he/she is told but doesn’t believe in it. They do because they are forced. But over time the person may see that what they have been forced to do is a better way to live… i.e. make their bed in the morning, see a therapist, eating healthy meals, reading, going to school, wearing appropriate clothing. Dealing with anger in non aggressive ways etc. etc.
If like you said the child just resists and justs goes through the motions then they are just merely complying and as soon as the pressure is off they will go back to their old ways. Like in your example where the child doesn’t connect with their therapist and hates him/her.
So you made some good points, Serbia, where we can differentiate between change and compliance.
So if a child is forced to see a therapist and starts liking their therapist and starts to look forward to going each week and benefits from it then that is real change. If a child forced to go to school and eventually looks forward to school or starts picking the healthier food choices on their own than that is change.
If on the other hand the child just goes through the motions so that they can make everyone happy then that is compliance and the child hasn’t learned anything.
So you can see that people can be forced to change in a non abusive manner.
...
-
Whooter - you are really grasping at straws here, and you appear quite desperate at that.
It was never demonstrated on this thread that people can be forced to change. Compliance can be forced, but change (true change) can only come about when the individual in question decides for themselves that they want to change.
None of the examples you've given demonstrate forced change, instead they show where compliance is forced only. A child who likes their therapist and decides that they want to cooperate and try to change - still has made their own decision, regardless of whether or not
they were forced into seeing the therapist in the first place. Conversley, a child who hates their therapist will continue to resist, or perhaps will tell the therapist what they think the therapist wants to hear - in order to give the appearance that they are changing (presumably in hopes of illustrating that therapy is no longer necessary). Big difference there - Whooter.
Lying about what others have agreed upon, and drawing false conclusions from the
discussion at hand, in order to add non-existent support to your own warped views
doesn't help your positionn at all Whooter. All it does is expose you for the complete fraud that you are - Mr. Reuben.
This is just a discussion Serb, no need to get upset and start taking shots at me. You made some good points.
Change is when the person embraces something new and takes it on to be their own.
Compliance is when the person is doing what he/she is told but doesn’t believe in it. They do because they are forced. But over time the person may see that what they have been forced to do is a better way to live… i.e. make their bed in the morning, see a therapist, eating healthy meals, reading, going to school, wearing appropriate clothing. Dealing with anger in non aggressive ways etc. etc.
If like you said the child just resists and justs goes through the motions then they are just merely complying and as soon as the pressure is off they will go back to their old ways. Like in your example where the child doesn’t connect with their therapist and hates him/her.
So you made some good points, Serbia, where we can differentiate between change and compliance.
So if a child is forced to see a therapist and starts liking their therapist and starts to look forward to going each week and benefits from it then that is real change. If a child forced to go to school and eventually looks forward to school or starts picking the healthier food choices on their own than that is change.
If on the other hand the child just goes through the motions so that they can make everyone happy then that is compliance and the child hasn’t learned anything.
So you can see that people can be forced to change in a non abusive manner.
...
Mr. Reuben - I don't consider that stating the obvious, and pointing out the questionable & underhanded manner in which you've drawn your conclusions as "taking shots at you".
Do you really feel attacked by others telling the truth? Well I guess when one lives a life
built upon dishonesty & deceit, then the truth can be quite scary.
Back to our "discussion" regarding change. If a person sees that what they're being forced
to do is better for them and DECIDES to embrace these new ideas/ways and make them their
own - then they are still MAKING A CHOICE. How do you "embrace something new and take
it to be your own" without CHOOSING to do so? The answer is - you can't!
So you see Mr. Reuben - even when others attempt to force change on someone in
a non-abuse manner, true change does not occur unless the individual makes a conscious
decision & chooses to change themselves. We do agree however that people
can be forced to comply, and there is a distinct difference between compliance & change.
-
As a recap. We have demonstrated in this thread that people can be forced to change and the change can be permanent especially if the change is eventually embraced. There are several ways to accomplish this. Some are attained utilizing abusive methods and others are not.
...
What?!? We have? When? People can be forced to COMPLY, that is a bit different. And what gives anyone the right to tell a developing teen what kind of person to be? It is up to the teen to decide that, the best we can do is educate them and encourage (not force) them to make good decisions. These programs are overkill, the change they are trying to induce is not worth the damage they inflict to the psyche of the child. The child might eventually decide to stop skipping school, or stop smoking pot. They can't just stop the program, once they are there they are trapped. And there is no way out except COMPLY! OBEY! for months and months.
The question was "Can people be forced to change" This doesnt specify a program or a therapists office or at home. Its a general question.
We outlined that people can be forced to change against their will in abusive ways and they can also be forced to change using non abusive methods.
A child can be told they will start making their bed in the morning. The child may resist and the parent may enforce this with having the child stay in after school. Eventually the child automatically makes his bed each morning without being asked.
On the other hand a child could be threatened and beaten and burned with cigarettes to the point where the child complies and finally starts cleaning their room each morning.
...
Once again I have to agree with Whooter here because he takes the most sensible approach in my view. Of course kids can be forced to change in a program. If they couldn't be forced to change why would there be programs where parents could send their kids to get their kids changed? Now I never saw kid burned with cigarettes but threatening was pretty common and the staff rarely had to do what they threatened to do because the kid was already afraid from the threat. If the regular threats didn't work well then you got put into the isolation cells or on work assignments depending on how much you resisted the change you had to make. After a while you just give in and change into what your parents wanted.
-
As a recap. We have demonstrated in this thread that people can be forced to change and the change can be permanent especially if the change is eventually embraced. There are several ways to accomplish this. Some are attained utilizing abusive methods and others are not.
...
What?!? We have? When? People can be forced to COMPLY, that is a bit different. And what gives anyone the right to tell a developing teen what kind of person to be? It is up to the teen to decide that, the best we can do is educate them and encourage (not force) them to make good decisions. These programs are overkill, the change they are trying to induce is not worth the damage they inflict to the psyche of the child. The child might eventually decide to stop skipping school, or stop smoking pot. They can't just stop the program, once they are there they are trapped. And there is no way out except COMPLY! OBEY! for months and months.
The question was "Can people be forced to change" This doesnt specify a program or a therapists office or at home. Its a general question.
We outlined that people can be forced to change against their will in abusive ways and they can also be forced to change using non abusive methods.
A child can be told they will start making their bed in the morning. The child may resist and the parent may enforce this with having the child stay in after school. Eventually the child automatically makes his bed each morning without being asked.
On the other hand a child could be threatened and beaten and burned with cigarettes to the point where the child complies and finally starts cleaning their room each morning.
...
Once again I have to agree with Whooter here because he takes the most sensible approach in my view. Of course kids can be forced to change in a program. If they couldn't be forced to change why would there be programs where parents could send their kids to get their kids changed? Now I never saw kid burned with cigarettes but threatening was pretty common and the staff rarely had to do what they threatened to do because the kid was already afraid from the threat. If the regular threats didn't work well then you got put into the isolation cells or on work assignments depending on how much you resisted the change you had to make. After a while you just give in and change into what your parents wanted.
Once again: Compliance VS. Change - there is a huge difference between the two.
Programs exist because they sell parents on the idea that they can force their "troubled"
kids to change, but in reality they are forcing them to comply. The majority of program parents can't distiguish the difference between the two, and they probably wouldn't care if they did. If the end result is a timid, obedient child, who does whatever they're told without question, then most program parents couldn't give a rat's ass if their child is merely being compliant or truly has changed.
-
As a recap. We have demonstrated in this thread that people can be forced to change and the change can be permanent especially if the change is eventually embraced. There are several ways to accomplish this. Some are attained utilizing abusive methods and others are not.
There it is again. We. Stop doing that. Quite a few of us have asked you to stop. What you've written above is your opinion. State it that way instead of trying to make it seem like "we" have all reached some sort of consensus.
-
It's our opinion Anne. Me, Danny and Whooter. We're here to set the record straight about change. It can be forced on a kid and the smart ones change right away. If they don't then the program has to take other measures to make them act like their parents wanted and paid for. I.E. "forced change" Anne.
-
I'd like to have the last word here - even if it is a bit off topic.
Anne, I just wanted to commend you for the maturity and restraint you've shown in
responding to the taunts of this immature, programmed, fucking whack-job, internet
tuff guy, DannyB II. It takes a lot more patience than people realize.
And yes this is indeed a great thread! Thanks Anne.
Thanks, but he's really just like a little gnat that annoys the hell out of you. Even the pro-program people see him for what he is......a barely literate, sad, angry and pathetic little man who is threatened by strong women and for some reason needs to find a guru to tell him how to live his life. That New Warrior Training shit just cracks me up and tells me quite a bit about him.
/sorry for the threadjack, but wanted to respond to SOS.
-
A couple of other examples:
A child who enters a program may and be forced to go to school 5 days a week against their will. They may be forced to read. Over time the child may pick up a book and read it on their own and look forward to learning each week.
Another example is the child may be forced to see a therapist each week and may resist at first but eventually the child may find they are benefitting from the therapists visits and start to look forward to going and start attending without asking.
...
Both of these examples are things that the program DEPRIVED me of. I was kept out of school for five months (most of my sophomore year), and there were no reputable therapists (obviously). Forced to read? We were starved of any kind of intellectual stimulation at all, we would read cereal boxes because it was all we were allowed to read. I think a better question would be; is it ethical to force someone to change into what WE think they should be? And does this end justify ANY means?
-
Most kids weren't going to school anyway before the program. Education is secondary in these schools. First you have to get the kid to behave and no amount of schooling is going to force that change, only the program and staff can do that. So why you're crying about not getting to do what you weren't doing anyway is bazaar. The point is that the program exists to make the kid change into more of what their parents wanted in a son or daughter. That's why they paid for the program in the first place, to force their kid to change.
-
Most kids weren't going to school anyway before the program.
Jeebus Christ on a crutch....that's exactly what "Dr." "Fr." Virgil Miller Cassian Newton said in his deposition.
Education is secondary in these schools.
Well no shit.
The point is that the program exists to make the kid change into more of what their parents wanted in a son or daughter. That's why they paid for the program in the first place, to force their kid to change.
Yep and that's wrong. Our children are not supposed to be little versions of us. They're supposed to grow into their own individual, with their own thoughts and points of view. Programs create robotic little drones that have had their identities removed, which is why I find them so dangerous. To interrupt the normal process of a teenager breaking away from their parents (it's gonna happen sometime) causes them to end up doing that at a time when that behavior truly is inappropriate. Kids are gonna misbehave. They're going to scare the living shit out of their parents. It's a normal part of the process of growing up. Our job as parents is to help guide our kids into being who they want to be, not who we want them to be.
-
A couple of other examples:
A child who enters a program may and be forced to go to school 5 days a week against their will. They may be forced to read. Over time the child may pick up a book and read it on their own and look forward to learning each week.
Another example is the child may be forced to see a therapist each week and may resist at first but eventually the child may find they are benefitting from the therapists visits and start to look forward to going and start attending without asking.
...
Both of these examples are things that the program DEPRIVED me of. I was kept out of school for five months (most of my sophomore year), and there were no reputable therapists (obviously). Forced to read? We were starved of any kind of intellectual stimulation at all, we would read cereal boxes because it was all we were allowed to read. I think a better question would be; is it ethical to force someone to change into what WE think they should be? And does this end justify ANY means?
That is terrible, shadyacres, I hope you dont view all programs as being that way like many here do. Most programs that I have been exposed to work with kids who have dropped out of school, encourage them to read and provide them with individual therapy as needed. I can see why you have a negative view of programs.
...
-
You have to love this place. You got it exactly backwards Anne. Until their 18 kids have no rights whatsoever and as parents it's our job to mold them into what we want them to be because we know better. Really anne, would you let your 16 yearold decide everything for herself? no of course not. We make the decisions and tell them what they will do with their lives because they don't know better.
-
(http://http://www.fornits.com/wwf2/images/smiles/troll10.png)
-
SOS wrote:
Mr. Reuben - I don't consider that stating the obvious, and pointing out the questionable & underhanded manner in which you've drawn your conclusions as "taking shots at you".
Do you really feel attacked by others telling the truth? Well I guess when one lives a life
built upon dishonesty & deceit, then the truth can be quite scary.
Back to our "discussion" regarding change. If a person sees that what they're being forced
to do is better for them and DECIDES to embrace these new ideas/ways and make them their
own - then they are still MAKING A CHOICE. How do you "embrace something new and take
it to be your own" without CHOOSING to do so? The answer is - you can't!
So you see Mr. Reuben - even when others attempt to force change on someone in
a non-abuse manner, true change does not occur unless the individual makes a conscious
decision & chooses to change themselves. We do agree however that people
can be forced to comply, and there is a distinct difference between compliance & change.
Mr Assbag, (His name is Whooter, use it)
Compliance is change. When someone has gone from rebellion to compliance that is a big change. Acquiescing may be the word you were looking for but really that maybe just playing semantics.
-
I'd like to have the last word here - even if it is a bit off topic.
Anne, I just wanted to commend you for the maturity and restraint you've shown in
responding to the taunts of this immature, programmed, fucking whack-job, internet
tuff guy, DannyB II. It takes a lot more patience than people realize.
And yes this is indeed a great thread! Thanks Anne.
Thanks, but he's really just like a little gnat that annoys the hell out of you. Even the pro-program people see him for what he is......a barely literate, sad, angry and pathetic little man who is threatened by strong women and for some reason needs to find a guru to tell him how to live his life. That New Warrior Training shit just cracks me up and tells me quite a bit about him.
/sorry for the threadjack, but wanted to respond to SOS.
The workshops I do, are my business. I have noticed you enjoy putting down other people and the experiences they share.
This bullshit you wrote about me was unnecessary, I have told you a hundred times Anne, I do not agree with your thoughts on the TTI. Once again you have to resort to humiliating yourself.
You told me in the PM's we shared this type of behavior was over. I guess not. (Please for sake of saving face, deny this).
Your a asshole, Anne.
-
SOS wrote:
Mr. Reuben - I don't consider that stating the obvious, and pointing out the questionable & underhanded manner in which you've drawn your conclusions as "taking shots at you".
Do you really feel attacked by others telling the truth? Well I guess when one lives a life
built upon dishonesty & deceit, then the truth can be quite scary.
Back to our "discussion" regarding change. If a person sees that what they're being forced
to do is better for them and DECIDES to embrace these new ideas/ways and make them their
own - then they are still MAKING A CHOICE. How do you "embrace something new and take
it to be your own" without CHOOSING to do so? The answer is - you can't!
So you see Mr. Reuben - even when others attempt to force change on someone in
a non-abuse manner, true change does not occur unless the individual makes a conscious
decision & chooses to change themselves. We do agree however that people
can be forced to comply, and there is a distinct difference between compliance & change.
Mr Assbag, (His name is Whooter, use it)
:rofl: :rofl:
Like you're in any position to tell anyone anything. SOS's name is Son of Serbia. Use it, assbag. God but you're tedious. ::)
Compliance is change. When someone has gone from rebellion to compliance that is a big change.
Only to the indoctrinated. Compliance is not change. It's going along with something, in the case of the TTI it's for survival......it's not true, inner change which is what these places advertise.
Acquiescing may be the word you were looking for but really that maybe just playing semantics.
Don't try and use words you don't understand, little one.
-
My workshops I do are my business but I have noticed this is how you pleasure yourself, putting down other people and the experiences they share.
Yes, they're your business but if you're going to put it out here for all to see, especially on a message board, people are going to comment on it. Better toughen up there bucko.
This bullshit you wrote about me was unnecessary, I have told you a hundred times Anne, I do not agree with your thoughts on the TTI. Once again you have to resort to humiliating yourself. You told me in the PM's we shared this type of behavior was over. I guess not. (Please for sake of saving face, deny this).
I agreed that if you stopped behaving like a complete dick, I'd lighten up on you. You're behaving like a complete dick, so the deal's off. :twofinger:
Your a asshole, Anne.
It's AN asshole, douchebag. Make learning proper English one of your new goals. It'll serve you well in life.
-
SOS wrote:
Mr. Reuben - I don't consider that stating the obvious, and pointing out the questionable & underhanded manner in which you've drawn your conclusions as "taking shots at you".
Do you really feel attacked by others telling the truth? Well I guess when one lives a life
built upon dishonesty & deceit, then the truth can be quite scary.
Back to our "discussion" regarding change. If a person sees that what they're being forced
to do is better for them and DECIDES to embrace these new ideas/ways and make them their
own - then they are still MAKING A CHOICE. How do you "embrace something new and take
it to be your own" without CHOOSING to do so? The answer is - you can't!
So you see Mr. Reuben - even when others attempt to force change on someone in
a non-abuse manner, true change does not occur unless the individual makes a conscious
decision & chooses to change themselves. We do agree however that people
can be forced to comply, and there is a distinct difference between compliance & change.
Mr Assbag, (His name is Whooter, use it)
:rofl: :rofl:
Like you're in any position to tell anyone anything. SOS's name is Son of Serbia. Use it, assbag. God but you're tedious. ::)
Compliance is change. When someone has gone from rebellion to compliance that is a big change.
Only to the indoctrinated. Compliance is not change. It's going along with something, in the case of the TTI it's for survival......it's not true, inner change which is what these places advertise.
Acquiescing may be the word you were looking for but really that maybe just playing semantics.
Don't try and use words you don't understand, little one.
I can see you are back to humiliating yourself again. Well don't drag me into your temper tantrums.
When you grow up PM, me.
Bye Bye
-
If you force a child into a program and he embraces many of the new lifestyles, education, reading and after being exposed to it for a long period of time he may learn to enjoy it and adopt it into his own routine.
This would be considered change.. initially forced (compliant) and then finally accepted.
...
-
When you grow up PM, me.
Why the hell would I want to do that? You're nothing more than a nuisance. I responded to one of the few PMs out of the myriad you sent to me that you didn't delete before I could read it.
-
If you force a child into a program and he embraces many of the new lifestyles, education, reading and after being exposed to it for a long period of time he may learn to enjoy it and adopt it into his own routine.
This would be considered change.. initially forced (compliant) and then finally accepted.
Yeah, and the only way to do that is to 'break' the person first. It ends up doing more damage than good.
-
When you grow up PM, me.
Why the hell would I want to do that? You're nothing more than a nuisance. I responded to one of the few PMs out of the myriad you sent to me that you didn't delete before I could read it.
Like I said, save face and deny. This is what you do. We all just play along with you Anne.
Your like Tracy Lords, only without the old money.
-
When you grow up PM, me.
Why the hell would I want to do that? You're nothing more than a nuisance. I responded to one of the few PMs out of the myriad you sent to me that you didn't delete before I could read it.
Like I said, save face and deny.
I didn't deny it you pathetic dolt.
-
If you force a child into a program and he embraces many of the new lifestyles, education, reading and after being exposed to it for a long period of time he may learn to enjoy it and adopt it into his own routine.
This would be considered change.. initially forced (compliant) and then finally accepted.
Yeah, and the only way to do that is to 'break' the person first. It ends up doing more damage than good.
Forcing a child to go to school isnt breaking them Anne, Forcing a child to make their bed or eat healthy foods isnt breaking them. See this is why many of us dont believe your accounts and definitions of what occurred at straight. This is not abusive, or breaking someone or brainwashing.
The program will get the child up and get that child to a school setting and teach them. They will do this every day. They will tell the child they need to read and write. They will tell the child it is time to see their therapist....
over time the child may embrace and enjoy their time in the class room and look forward to it. they may start to get benefit from their therapist and enjoy that too. This is real change, Anne.
...
-
Forcing a child to go to school isnt breaking them Anne, Forcing a child to make their bed or eat healthy foods isnt breaking them.
But that's not what we're talking about and you know it. We're talking about forcing a kid to fundamentally change who they are and that change is brought about thru the use of LGAT-type methods. Those break kids. It's a bad idea to break a kid, no matter how good the intentions are.
See this is why many of us dont believe your accounts and definitions of what occurred at straight. This is not abusive, or breaking someone or brainwashing.
Again, we're not talking about getting them to make their beds or brush their teeth, but you know this. You insist on making it seem like that's what we're discussing in order to deflect attention away from how they get the kids to comply.
-
Forcing a child to go to school isnt breaking them Anne, Forcing a child to make their bed or eat healthy foods isnt breaking them.
But that's not what we're talking about and you know it. We're talking about forcing a kid to fundamentally change who they are and that change is brought about thru the use of LGAT-type methods. Those break kids. It's a bad idea to break a kid, no matter how good the intentions are.
Anne, look at the thread title. It doesnt say anything about breaking people down or LGAT. Its a fundamental question. "Can people be forced to change?"
You cant seem to get your head out of straight. Look at the question independently of straight.
The answer is yes, people can be forced to change. We have demonstrated that. Many examples.
WE can start a new thread that says "Can a person be forced to change who they fundamentally are" Then we can talk about brainwashing and LGATs and such.
...
-
Forcing a child to go to school isnt breaking them Anne, Forcing a child to make their bed or eat healthy foods isnt breaking them.
But that's not what we're talking about and you know it. We're talking about forcing a kid to fundamentally change who they are and that change is brought about thru the use of LGAT-type methods. Those break kids. It's a bad idea to break a kid, no matter how good the intentions are.
Anne, look at the thread title. It doesnt say anything about breaking people down or LGAT. Its a fundamental question. "Can people be forced to change?"
You cant seem to get your head out of straight. Look at the question independently of straight.
The answer is yes, people can be forced to change. We have demonstrated that. Many examples.
WE can start a new thread that says "Can a person be forced to change who they fundamentally are" Then we can talk about brainwashing and LGATs and such.
Quit playing your semantics games with me. I'm really tired of it.
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Forcing a child to go to school isnt breaking them Anne, Forcing a child to make their bed or eat healthy foods isnt breaking them.
But that's not what we're talking about and you know it. We're talking about forcing a kid to fundamentally change who they are and that change is brought about thru the use of LGAT-type methods. Those break kids. It's a bad idea to break a kid, no matter how good the intentions are.
Anne, look at the thread title. It doesnt say anything about breaking people down or LGAT. Its a fundamental question. "Can people be forced to change?"
You cant seem to get your head out of straight. Look at the question independently of straight.
The answer is yes, people can be forced to change. We have demonstrated that. Many examples.
WE can start a new thread that says "Can a person be forced to change who they fundamentally are" Then we can talk about brainwashing and LGATs and such.
Quit playing your semantics games with me. I'm really tired of it.
Are you drinking or something? I am serious. Where does it mention breaking kids down? Why do you want to impose a change to the title many pages into the discussion just because I made my point?
We were all talking about change here, nothing about breaking kids spirit or LGATs. We covered that there are abusive ways to change kids and none abusive ways. You havent even read your own thread. Talk about spin Anne.
Change the Title if you like and we will continue on with "Breaking kids down" if you like. but make up your mind.
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If you force a child into a program and he embraces many of the new lifestyles, education, reading and after being exposed to it for a long period of time he may learn to enjoy it and adopt it into his own routine.
This would be considered change.. initially forced (compliant) and then finally accepted.
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Now you're playing games MR. Reuben, without addressing the questions being put to you.
It seems to be your MO.
Mr. Reuben - I'll ask my question again, based in part on YOUR OWN WORDS:
How does someone "accept" or "embrace" new lifestyles, education (I presume this means IDEAS), and routines without CHOOSING to do so?
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Now you're playing games MR. Reuben, without addressing the questions being put to you.
It seems to be your MO.
Mr. Reuben - I'll ask my question again, based in part on YOUR OWN WORDS:
How does someone "accept" or "embrace" new lifestyles, education (I presume this means IDEAS), and routines without CHOOSING to do so?
If you are speaking to me I am not Mr. Reuben. If you redirect your question to me I will respond.
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Now you're playing games MR. Reuben, without addressing the questions being put to you.
It seems to be your MO.
Mr. Reuben - I'll ask my question again, based in part on YOUR OWN WORDS:
How does someone "accept" or "embrace" new lifestyles, education (I presume this means IDEAS), and routines without CHOOSING to do so?
If you are speaking to me I am not Mr. Reuben. If you redirect your question to me I will respond.
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So I guess you prefer "John" then?
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Now you're playing games MR. Reuben, without addressing the questions being put to you.
It seems to be your MO.
Mr. Reuben - I'll ask my question again, based in part on YOUR OWN WORDS:
How does someone "accept" or "embrace" new lifestyles, education (I presume this means IDEAS), and routines without CHOOSING to do so?
If you are speaking to me I am not Mr. Reuben. If you redirect your question to me I will respond.
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So I guess you prefer "John" then?
He usually answers to "John" or "John Reuben" as you can see below:
Link to where TheWho admits he is john Reuben (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=27903&hilit=where+he+wanted+to+punch+you+out&start=135#p336867)
John must be too busy enSlavingTeens right now to answer.
Yes, he takes gubmint dollars (your tax dollars) and uses them to imprison youths privately at various quack-holes.
Why is that a crime? They use tax dollars for far worse things than imprisoning youths. At least they are kept safe here. Imagine if they were shipped overseas with private funding where people hate Americans. You would see abuse on a whole new level. All my work stays within the confines of the US borders... no 2nd rate programs.
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Now you're playing games MR. Reuben, without addressing the questions being put to you.
It seems to be your MO.
Mr. Reuben - I'll ask my question again, based in part on YOUR OWN WORDS:
How does someone "accept" or "embrace" new lifestyles, education (I presume this means IDEAS), and routines without CHOOSING to do so?
If you are speaking to me I am not Mr. Reuben. If you redirect your question to me I will respond.
...
So I guess you prefer "John" then?
He usually answers to "John" or "John Reuben" as you can see below:
Link to where TheWho admits he is john Reuben (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=27903&hilit=where+he+wanted+to+punch+you+out&start=135#p336867)
John must be too busy enSlavingTeens right now to answer.
Yes, he takes gubmint dollars (your tax dollars) and uses them to imprison youths privately at various quack-holes.
Why is that a crime? They use tax dollars for far worse things than imprisoning youths. At least they are kept safe here. Imagine if they were shipped overseas with private funding where people hate Americans. You would see abuse on a whole new level. All my work stays within the confines of the US borders... no 2nd rate programs.
Oh, I see! Sorry, it was my mistake.
JOHN REUBEN- I'll ask you my question again, based in part on YOUR OWN WORDS:
How does someone "accept" or "embrace" new lifestyles, education (I presume this means IDEAS), and routines without CHOOSING to do so?
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Coercion always has its cost.
Whether that coercion is physical, mental, emotional, or whatever, there is no free ride for that shortcut to change.