Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: DannyB II on September 21, 2010, 12:35:29 AM
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In my facility, the mantra was dead-or-in-jail. Maybe because the "insane" was already presumed to be true.
It's been hard for me to recognize this mantra as being an untruth. After all, many of us were already almost dead, and some of us had already been in jail. That's what made it look like a fact.
I can see now how it was used to manipulate us. But I was wondering: how have other people dealt with this mantra as adults?
How have you been able to get it out of your head, away from your expectations for yourself and for the other kids who were in programs with you?
I may not like the "quote" because for a lot of folks I knew this was the reality. It never was a mantra for me.
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One meets his destiny often in the road he takes to avoid it.
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muckit wrote
"One meets his destiny often in the road he takes to avoid it.
What , Now you quote furtune cookie?
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“Dead, insane or in jail” or "Dead or in Jail" are used outside of programs also. I have noticed that many posters here on fornits who had a bad experience associate this phrase with the program they were in and therefore view the phrase in a negative way.
I have seen this with other phrases also like “Getting real”. This is used outside of programs also but when people here on fornits hear it they view it as program speak.
This also applies to certain songs which were sung while they were in the program. I heard someone say “Jingle Bells” had a negative effect on some people here. Others may associate certain foods negatively due to them being served inside programs.
So the Phrase “Dead, insane or in Jail” is a valid phrase/argument but just doesn’t sit well with most folk here on fornits.
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So the Phrase “Dead, insane or in Jail” is a valid phrase/argument but just doesn’t sit well with most folk here on fornits.
Because in programs, they ARE using it as manipulation (scare tactics). First they use it on the parents to scare them into believing that the kid needs a program (they'll DIE without it!!) and, more damagingly, they're using on on a bunch of weekend warrior kids with what the parents see as 'attitude problems' and who are not addicted to anything. It started out, IIRC, in Synanon where they were dealing with hardcore heroin addicts and shouldn't be used on kids. Ya know, that self-fulfilling prophecy stuff. They're telling kids with ADHD or ODD (which terms, btw, could be applied to damn near every teenage kid at some time in their lives) that if they don't buy into the bullshit thought reform and conform that they'll be deadinsaneorinjail. It's part and parcel of the coercion.
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So the Phrase “Dead, insane or in Jail” is a valid phrase/argument but just doesn’t sit well with most folk here on fornits.
Because in programs, they ARE using it as manipulation (scare tactics). First they use it on the parents to scare them into believing that the kid needs a program (they'll DIE without it!!) and, more damagingly, they're using on on a bunch of weekend warrior kids with what the parents see as 'attitude problems' and who are not addicted to anything. It started out, IIRC, in Synanon where they were dealing with hardcore heroin addicts and shouldn't be used on kids. Ya know, that self-fulfilling prophecy stuff. They're telling kids with ADHD or ODD (which terms, btw, could be applied to damn near every teenage kid at some time in their lives) that if they don't buy into the bullshit thought reform and conform that they'll be deadinsaneorinjail. It's part and parcel of the coercion.
Exactly, Anne, the phrase has a very negative meaning to you just like some people find the song "Jingle Bells" disturbing to hear because of their exposure to it in the program or the term "Getting Real" etc.
If there were people who had never heard of a program and their friend said they would have been "Dead or in Jail" if it were not for their "therapist" or "Counselor" or "Parole officer" or "Aunt Jane" etc. They wouldnt have this negative cloud of synanon, manipulation or thought reform hanging over them. It would be a valid phrase that is used in everyday life.
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Exactly, Anne, the phrase has a very negative meaning to you just like some people find the song "Jingle Bells" disturbing to hear because of their exposure to it in the program or the term "Getting Real" etc.
No, those two things are very different. While the song can remind some of us of the torture we went through, the threat of "you'll die if you leave us" has a lasting effect on the child's psyche. Again, self-fulfilling prophecy.
If there were people who had never heard of a program and their friend said they would have been "Dead or in Jail" if it were not for their "therapist" or "Counselor" or "Parole officer" or "Aunt Jane" etc. They wouldnt have this negative cloud of synanon, manipulation or thought reform hanging over them. It would be a valid phrase that is used in everyday life.
But in the case of real therapy, there's not the threat of "if you leave us, you'll die". Someone may feel that their therapist 'saved their life' but any qualified therapist is not going to use the treat of death to get their patients to "keep coming back".
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Then you have experiences like Whooter's family where the kid goes to the program and still ends up dead. Only he was abused for a few years before he ended up dead anyway. The program just extended his misery until he had the opportunity to overdose.
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If you ended up in a program, you were probably behaving in a way that concerned people enough to choose that option. That means that unlike 99.9% of teenagers, you were sent to a program for troubled teens, which by definition is a population of people who will more likely have trouble in society when they grow up. As teens we showed symptoms of being troubled, and so programs want to work hard to keep us out of jail or institutions, and maybe set us on the right path. There is a reason so many "program vets" end up in jail, or killing themselves from drugs, or insane.. Some people even try to use this fact as proof that programs don't work. I think the insane part has been displayed on fornits for a while now, although it appears Psy is clearing the crazy people out of here now, there is more to this statement than some people here would like to admit. But, I don't think it's a self fulfilling prophecy, there is no such thing. Remember the wise words of Sarah Connor, there is no fate but what we make.
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If there were people who had never heard of a program and their friend said they would have been "Dead or in Jail" if it were not for their "therapist" or "Counselor" or "Parole officer" or "Aunt Jane" etc. They wouldnt have this negative cloud of synanon, manipulation or thought reform hanging over them. It would be a valid phrase that is used in everyday life.
But in the case of real therapy, there's not the threat of "if you leave us, you'll die". Someone may feel that their therapist 'saved their life' but any qualified therapist is not going to use the treat of death to get their patients to "keep coming back".
Nor would any professional therapist allow themselves or their patient to attach undue importance to said therapist having "saved" said client's life, regardless of the circumstances and whether or not there is any merit to the sentiment.
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If you ended up in a program, you were probably behaving in a way that concerned people enough to choose that option.
Bullshit. I was actually a relatively tame kid, even by standards back then.
There is a reason so many "program vets" end up in jail, or killing themselves from drugs, or insane.. Some people even try to use this fact as proof that programs don't work.
More bullshit. I left Hyde School far more messed up than when I started there. This was directly the result of abuse perpetrated by Hyde School, as well as Hyde School's "blame the victim" philosophy and LGAT-style confrontational methodologies.
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Well that's how the fornits narrative tends to go. Innocent children are sent to programs by ignorant parents being manipulated by evil, sadistic, program employees conning them into sending their teen for no reason at all. Then that teen is brutally subjected to group therapy until they are a drooling brainwash victim, spouting AA doctrine at the drop of a hat. Then they get back in the real world and can't cope, and then the jail, dead or insane prophecy comes into play. Since the kid was brainwashed to believe they are an addict/loser, they will ultimately fulfill this prophecy, all because of the program. Had only those poor, naive parents not picked up the phone the day the program called, we would all be a bunch of doctors and lawyers and fornits wouldn't exist.
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If you ended up in a program, you were probably behaving in a way that concerned people enough to choose that option.
Wrong, but I understand that you've been programmed to believe that. If a kid is sent away, there MUST be a good reason...amirite? It could NEVER be that the parent is over-reacting or being scared by some Ed-Con into believing that their kid is "troubled", right?
That means that unlike 99.9% of teenagers, you were sent to a program for troubled teens, which by definition is a population of people who will more likely have trouble in society when they grow up.
If they've been subjected to the mindfuck that is LGAT-type programs, you're damn right they'll have more problems.
As teens we showed symptoms of being troubled, and so programs want to work hard to keep us out of jail or institutions, and maybe set us on the right path.
You might have, but not me. As a teen, I showed the symptoms of being a normal teenager. I had an incredibly strict father who didn't like the fact that after the divorce my mother gave me more freedom than he did, so off I went to Straight. I had experimented with pot and drank but never had a drug or alcohol "problem". No behavior problems reported at school. Nothing clinical diagnoses of anyting.....no ODD, ADHD or anything remotely close to it. In fact, the only person that had a problem with how I was living my life was my father, who was a very controlling man who didn't like people disagreeing with him.
There is a reason so many "program vets" end up in jail, or killing themselves from drugs, or insane.
I was told for years after I rejected Straight's thinking that I would end up that way. I'm still here, living a relatively happy life....all without benefit of Straight, AA or any other dogmatic bullshit. Funny, it wasn't until I shook off all of Straight and AA's teachings that I truly began to 'recover' and become happy.
Some people even try to use this fact as proof that programs don't work.
No they don't. They use it as anecdotal evidence that programs can, and very often do, harm kids.
But, I don't think it's a self fulfilling prophecy, there is no such thing.
It's called the Pygmalion Effect and it's real.
http://www.ntlf.com/html/pi/9902/pygm_1.htm (http://www.ntlf.com/html/pi/9902/pygm_1.htm)
http://www.psy.gla.ac.uk/~steve/hawth.html#pyg (http://www.psy.gla.ac.uk/~steve/hawth.html#pyg)
Remember the wise words of Sarah Connor, there is no fate but what we make.
I don't like to base my life decisions off of fictional characters in a sci-fi movie. But that's just me.
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If there were people who had never heard of a program and their friend said they would have been "Dead or in Jail" if it were not for their "therapist" or "Counselor" or "Parole officer" or "Aunt Jane" etc. They wouldnt have this negative cloud of synanon, manipulation or thought reform hanging over them. It would be a valid phrase that is used in everyday life.
But in the case of real therapy, there's not the threat of "if you leave us, you'll die". Someone may feel that their therapist 'saved their life' but any qualified therapist is not going to use the treat of death to get their patients to "keep coming back".
Nor would any professional therapist allow themselves or their patient to attach undue importance to said therapist having "saved" said client's life, regardless of the circumstances and whether or not there is any merit to the sentiment.
I agree, not many therapists would say "You would have been dead if it were not for me" because they typically dont pat themselves on the back nor do they know for sure the "Cause and Effect". The patient may credit his/her therapist with saving their life because that is how they feel. They feel they turned a corner and could not have done it without the help of the therapist. But who knows? Maybe the person would not have died without the help of the therapist, maybe another event would have occurred which would have saved the persons' life. But the point is that it was a major event in the persons life.
But it is natural to attach importance to events when we really dont know their effect.
Take a look at programs for example. Many people attribute their success and the turn around in their lives to the time they spent in a program. But what if they never went? Would they still be doing well?
How about the ones who say the program did them harm? would they be better off if they didn't go or worse off? We just don't know.
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Wrong, but I understand that you've been programmed to believe that. If a kid is sent away, there MUST be a good reason...amirite? It could NEVER be that the parent is over-reacting or being scared by some Ed-Con into believing that their kid is "troubled", right?
That reminds me, I have to download and install the newest update to my programming.
If they've been subjected to the mindfuck that is LGAT-type programs, you're damn right they'll have more problems.
Mindfuck is your term. I went through LGAT and came out just fine, so do most people. Perhaps maybe in the olden days when you and Ursus were in programs things were different, I can't comment on things that happened before I was born.
You might have, but not me. As a teen, I showed the symptoms of being a normal teenager. I had an incredibly strict father who didn't like the fact that after the divorce my mother gave me more freedom than he did, so off I went to Straight. I had experimented with pot and drank but never had a drug or alcohol "problem". No behavior problems reported at school. Nothing clinical diagnoses of anyting.....no ODD, ADHD or anything remotely close to it. In fact, the only person that had a problem with how I was living my life was my father, who was a very controlling man who didn't like people disagreeing with him.
That's one perspective. It would be interesting to hear your parents side of the story to get a more accurate picture of what was really going on.
I was told for years after I rejected Straight's thinking that I would end up that way. I'm still here, living a relatively happy life....all without benefit of Straight, AA or any other dogmatic bullshit. Funny, it wasn't until I shook off all of Straight and AA's teachings that I truly began to 'recover' and become happy.
Some might view fornits as dogmatic bullshit.
No they don't. They use it as anecdotal evidence that programs can, and very often do, harm kids.
Yet there are only a dozen or so posters here. Out of hundreds of thousands who went to programs.
It's called the Pygmalion Effect and it's real.
http://www.ntlf.com/html/pi/9902/pygm_1.htm (http://www.ntlf.com/html/pi/9902/pygm_1.htm)
http://www.psy.gla.ac.uk/~steve/hawth.html#pyg (http://www.psy.gla.ac.uk/~steve/hawth.html#pyg)
Well if there's a webpage about it, it must be true.
I don't like to base my life decisions off of fictional characters in a sci-fi movie. But that's just me.
I know, you're above it. Thanks for descending to our level to talk to us, Great Anne Bonney.
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That's one perspective. It would be interesting to hear your parents side of the story to get a more accurate picture of what was really going on.
Well, my mom says that she never thought I had a problem. My dad now says that while he wasn't happy with my behavior back then, he realized he may have over-reacted. He realizes that Straight preyed on his fears and fed into them. Although I'm sure you'll dismiss that as me lying.
I was told for years after I rejected Straight's thinking that I would end up that way. I'm still here, living a relatively happy life....all without benefit of Straight, AA or any other dogmatic bullshit. Funny, it wasn't until I shook off all of Straight and AA's teachings that I truly began to 'recover' and become happy.
Some might view fornits as dogmatic bullshit.
What's your point? That doesn't at all address what I said.
Yet there are only a dozen or so posters here. Out of hundreds of thousands who went to programs.
And you think the only people who feel they were harmed by programs are here? :rofl:
Well if there's a webpage about it, it must be true.
So you're saying you disagree with it then? Please expound on that.
I know, you're above it. Thanks for descending to our level to talk to us, Great Anne Bonney.
You're quite welcome.
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Well, my mom says that she never thought I had a problem. My dad now says that while he wasn't happy with my behavior back then, he realized he may have over-reacted. He realizes that Straight preyed on his fears and fed into them. Although I'm sure you'll dismiss that as me lying.
Well my momma always used to say, life is like a box of chocolates, ya never know what you're gunna get.
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Well, my mom says that she never thought I had a problem. My dad now says that while he wasn't happy with my behavior back then, he realized he may have over-reacted. He realizes that Straight preyed on his fears and fed into them. Although I'm sure you'll dismiss that as me lying.
Well my momma always used to say, life is like a box of chocolates, ya never know what you're gunna get.
RUN MAX , RUN!
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Well, my mom says that she never thought I had a problem. My dad now says that while he wasn't happy with my behavior back then, he realized he may have over-reacted. He realizes that Straight preyed on his fears and fed into them. Although I'm sure you'll dismiss that as me lying.
Well my momma always used to say, life is like a box of chocolates, ya never know what you're gunna get.
So, you're just gonna throw out movie quotes and not address anything I've said in response to your own posts?? Alrighty then.
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The Asst Principal at my high school was in Straights pocket. He used his position to reccomend parents of "troubled" teens speak to Straight parents. Thats how they recruited my parents. It has become clear in speaking with many people who attended that school and wound up in Straight, that the Asst Principal was attempting to use Straight to clear out any kid who gave him an issue at all. Was he getting a financial kick-back? Good Question.
My sweet but gullible Mother bought the deadinsaneorjail thing all the way. She really believed she was helping me. It took 18 months in there before she realized what an utter crock of shit it all was.
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Hey guys we keep running round and round and getting nowhere with the battle of programs are bad, let's give Who, Max, and Danny the opportunity to tell us which programs are good since they are stuck on the one track.
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Hey guys we keep running round and round and getting nowhere with the battle of programs are bad, let's give Who, Max, and Danny the opportunity to tell us which programs are good since they are stuck on the one track.
C'mon man - isn't it obvious? Those Bozos think ALL programs are good. They've all been effectively programmed - that's the problem. Additionally, Whooter's a sadist who hates children anyways & believes they should have no rights at all.
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Hey guys we keep running round and round and getting nowhere with the battle of programs are bad, let's give Who, Max, and Danny the opportunity to tell us which programs are good since they are stuck on the one track.
C'mon man - isn't it obvious? Those Bozos think ALL programs are good. They've all been effectively programmed - that's the problem. Additionally, Whooter's a sadist who hates children anyways & believes they should have no rights at all.
Anyone who has read my posts know I am middle of the road and have a balanced view. I believe there are abusive programs as well as good ones. It is people like yourself who think in absolutes and feel all programs are abusive.
As far as not wanting kids to have rights. I am all for it, but unfortunately they do not have any rights until they turn 18. This isnt my fault but that of the voters.
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Hey guys we keep running round and round and getting nowhere with the battle of programs are bad, let's give Who, Max, and Danny the opportunity to tell us which programs are good since they are stuck on the one track.
I think this is a reasonable request from Botched. I would like to see the list of specific programs which come so highly reccomended here. Names, address and phone # would be helpful. We can start with the program which maximillian/suck it attended. thanks. :rocker:
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Hey guys we keep running round and round and getting nowhere with the battle of programs are bad, let's give Who, Max, and Danny the opportunity to tell us which programs are good since they are stuck on the one track.
I think this is a reasonable request from Botched. I would like to see the list of specific programs which come so highly reccomended here. Names, address and phone # would be helpful. We can start with the program which maximillian/suck it attended. thanks. :rocker:
I agree with what Shaggy's said.. I made a reasonable request and "Who" you danced around the question... Name the good programs...
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Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
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Hey guys we keep running round and round and getting nowhere with the battle of programs are bad, let's give Who, Max, and Danny the opportunity to tell us which programs are good since they are stuck on the one track.
I think this is a reasonable request from Botched. I would like to see the list of specific programs which come so highly reccomended here. Names, address and phone # would be helpful. We can start with the program which maximillian/suck it attended. thanks. :rocker:
I agree with what Shaggy's said.. I made a reasonable request and "Who" you danced around the question... Name the good programs...
:bump:
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Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
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In my facility, the mantra was dead-or-in-jail. Maybe because the "insane" was already presumed to be true.
It's been hard for me to recognize this mantra as being an untruth. After all, many of us were already almost dead, and some of us had already been in jail. That's what made it look like a fact.
I can see now how it was used to manipulate us. But I was wondering: how have other people dealt with this mantra as adults?
How have you been able to get it out of your head, away from your expectations for yourself and for the other kids who were in programs with you?
Botch Hedge asked a legitimate question. I am asking you respectfully, one time, to stay on topic.
Joel... In all fairness the topic got changed on me... I posed a legitimate question to you guys first then did not get a answer
Hey guys we keep running round and round and getting nowhere with the battle of programs are bad, let's give Who, Max, and Danny the opportunity to tell us which programs are good since they are stuck on the one track.
I think this is a reasonable request from Botched. I would like to see the list of specific programs which come so highly reccomended here. Names, address and phone # would be helpful. We can start with the program which maximillian/suck it attended. thanks. :rocker:
I agree with what Shaggy's said.. I made a reasonable request and "Who" you danced around the question... Name the good programs...
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If you ended up in a program, you were probably behaving in a way that concerned people enough to choose that option.
You got to be kidding me, Max. I thought you grew beyond this BS to at least realize that many kids did not deserve a program. Now I happen to believe that no kid deserves a fraudulent and emotionally abusive one, because it isn't helpful, to say the least, but many kids had parents who were unable to accept a different type of kid, or who took a radical approach to troubled times. Or who simply wanted a fucking vacation from parenthood, but couldn't admit it was because they were weak. And in so many cases, divorce was really the perfect backdrop to to extract kids out of families.
Maybe you would have been deadinsaneorinjail. So fine maybe "the program" saved your ass, but from my understanding of your posts, you didn't exactly go straight after the program. It's possible you just matured and got sick and tired of your own BS. (Or maybe not.)
As for "deadinsaneinjail," it was program manipulation. If parents second guessed their decision, the program immediately pulled out the DIJ card to keep their parents submissive and their wallets active. I will also say that CEDU traumatized many people who were not headed toward DIJ until they had to re-adjust to life in the mainstream. CEDU had disconnected their coping mechanisms for living in reality while beating the living crap out of their self esteem and authentic sense of self. This is an experience that was duplicated in offshoots and many other programs with the same systemic methodology.
Seriously, they pulled the same BS with my parents, but let's add, "she'll become addicted." Well, I was not addicted before CEDU. I was not sent to CEDU for drugs (and isn't a treatment center) so why would they throw that scare tactic out there? And jail? I never even stole a Hostess twinkie, so jail seems like a pretty extreme outcome... I guess anyone could go nuts temporarily, but I've never had my sanity (seriously ;))questioned. But this was THE standard tactic used to keep parents and kids in line, and it was not isolated to one program or time frame. This was endemic.
So arguing semantics to devalue the DIJ tactic is total bullshit.
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No offense to anyone, but I still suspect there's more to the picture than meets the eye here; I think Max (formerly known as SUCK_IT) is actually a program parent posting as a "program kid." Of course he/she will deny this to the end, but something just doesn't smell right about a lot of the posts made by this person (that is, the ones that "Max" doesn't go back and delete...... ::) )
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I agree something is fishy. Nothing seems quite authentic.. it's off somehow.
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No offense to anyone, but I still suspect there's more to the picture than meets the eye here; I think Max (formerly known as SUCK_IT) is actually a program parent posting as a "program kid." Of course he/she will deny this to the end, but something just doesn't smell right about a lot of the posts made by this person (that is, the ones that "Max" doesn't go back and delete...... ::) )
I agree. The the vernacular is not that of some stoner kid. Although "it's" never been specific, Max writes like a woman.
Writting in the second hand of hypotheticals and what ifs. It can't get in to too many specifics because it never really lived it. Just a few handed down anecdotal tid bits ,like the cake and candy bar stories( pretty heady inside stuff) This sounds like a neurotic mother looking for validation for having sent her kid away. Either way nothing it says adds up at all.
"More majic mushrooms please!"
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Maybe we should get a writing and speaking test targeting survivors to ensure authenticity.
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Maybe we should get a writing and speaking test targeting survivors to ensure authenticity.
And of course oyu can't possibly do that,so everything read here has to be treated with scepticism at the very least.
Can't we all tell when we meet another survivor even on line? Do you really get that from Max sucks?
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He's on my foe list, I don't get bupkis from him.
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I've never messed with the friend or foe list . What exactly does that do anyway?
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This post was made by Maximilian who is currently on your ignore list. Display this post.
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y'all get back on topic now, ya here.
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Back on topic ? ok I'll try.
1). I'm still alive (barely)
2).I'm still sane (barely)
3).I'm still free (barely)
How many program graduates are not so lucky?
How many of them are either dead, insane, or in jail because of thier program?
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See,the program taught me how to say exactly what you want to hear.
Luv ya!
Can I have another sandwich please?
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From what I have read here there are many kids who were placed in programs to avoid going to jail or juvy. I have also read a few posters who claim the programs saved their lives, so I think the phrase does hold some credence.
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From what I have read here there are many kids who were placed in programs to avoid going to jail or juvy. I have also read a few posters who claim the programs saved their lives, so I think the phrase does hold some credence.
Other than Max suck , then who?
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I've been thinking this over lately - the dead or in jail thing. I've tried to think of a program kid I know who didn't spend a little (or a lot) of time in jail after the program. I can't think of even one. Now, I am sure there are a lot of them - but the point is, there are also a lot of these kids who end up in jail even after all that time and effort and cash (and hunger, sleep deprivation, emotional, sexual abuse and or intimidation, and good old fashion brutality) and heres the kicker - most say after the program jail is a piece of cake. After a program, jail looses a good deal of its deterrent factor. So, for the parent hoping to keep their kid out of jail, they couldn't make a worse decision. All they're doing is delaying it until they are adults, which will result in a record that will hinder education and employment opportunities. I'd advise getting jail and prosecution and conviction, with reasonably natural consequences that result, out of the way during their minority in the hope it will be unpleasant enough to motivate better thinking as young adults but will produce no permanent record to hinder them in future. Of course I am not saying jail isn't a big deal or that one shouldn't do what they reasonably can as a parent to keep their kid out of that kind of trouble - but I am saying the programs just make the probability nearly an inevitability and the consequences will be more serious.
As for death - this is the really terrifying thing from a parents perspective. It seems like a very real possibility. The fear is palatable. Crushing. Stressful beyond words. The programs do seem like a way to keep the kid alive until they have time to grow up some and mature out of the more extreme behaviors. But sadly, death is a reality in the programs too - and far more possible than your average parent could ever dream. And then you have the post-program causalities list, which is very long and sad. So, the programs are no answer to this worry either. And they know it.
But they have a line that cuts directly into a parents deepest fears, making it a very effective tool for manipulation, and they use it liberally.
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The programs do seem like a way to keep the kid alive until they have time to grow up some and mature out of the more extreme behaviors.
This is all my parents ever wanted from the program they told me when I got home. I had already accomplished the insane and jail part before setting foot in a private program, and was quickly on the path to the third option without a care about myself or how this impacted my family. This isn't something I'm very proud of now, but I actually enjoyed the thought of causing my family deep pain with my own death, so it wasn't something I was trying to avoid. I was actively pursuing it with a mixture of anger and carelessness, and would have accomplished that goal had I not been forced into a private program for a while. I don't think it's abusive to lock a kid up when they have proven they are intent on destroying themselves. I wasn't in a rational frame of mind then, and would have never consented to it. So if private programs did not exist, I would have surely died. That's why I say the program saved my life, because it's true. They saved my life, against my own wishes, which makes it all the more pathetic, but at least there are people out there who will do this for parents. I think the option is a tool that some parents need. Perhaps parents use it unnecessarily out of fear, but if the option didn't exist at all, it would probably cost many more lives than are lost inside of programs, which is also sad.
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The programs do seem like a way to keep the kid alive until they have time to grow up some and mature out of the more extreme behaviors.
This is all my parents ever wanted from the program they told me when I got home. I had already accomplished the insane and jail part before setting foot in a private program, and was quickly on the path to the third option without a care about myself or how this impacted my family. This isn't something I'm very proud of now, but I actually enjoyed the thought of causing my family deep pain with my own death, so it wasn't something I was trying to avoid. I was actively pursuing it with a mixture of anger and carelessness, and would have accomplished that goal had I not been forced into a private program for a while. I don't think it's abusive to lock a kid up when they have proven they are intent on destroying themselves. I wasn't in a rational frame of mind then, and would have never consented to it. So if private programs did not exist, I would have surely died. That's why I say the program saved my life, because it's true. They saved my life, against my own wishes, which makes it all the more pathetic, but at least there are people out there who will do this for parents. I think the option is a tool that some parents need. Perhaps parents use it unnecessarily out of fear, but if the option didn't exist at all, it would probably cost many more lives than are lost inside of programs, which is also sad.
Spoken like what a program parent would like to hear... But most of the time the kids just pay that same kind of lipservice just to get the heck out of thoses places and have estranged relationships with their families when they get out.
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No offense to anyone, but I still suspect there's more to the picture than meets the eye here; I think Max (formerly known as SUCK_IT) is actually a program parent posting as a "program kid." Of course he/she will deny this to the end, but something just doesn't smell right about a lot of the posts made by this person (that is, the ones that "Max" doesn't go back and delete...... ::) )
I agree. The the vernacular is not that of some stoner kid. Although "it's" never been specific, Max writes like a woman.
Writting in the second hand of hypotheticals and what ifs. It can't get in to too many specifics because it never really lived it. Just a few handed down anecdotal tid bits ,like the cake and candy bar stories( pretty heady inside stuff) This sounds like a neurotic mother looking for validation for having sent her kid away. Either way nothing it says adds up at all.
"More majic mushrooms please!"
:nods: :nods: :nods:
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Guys, if you can not relate to what Max's is saying then why don't you jump on another thread. Why abuse him with your creepy suspicions.
His story is not that hard to relate to if you suffered from a hard core drug addiction.
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No offense to anyone, but I still suspect there's more to the picture than meets the eye here; I think Max (formerly known as SUCK_IT) is actually a program parent posting as a "program kid." Of course he/she will deny this to the end, but something just doesn't smell right about a lot of the posts made by this person (that is, the ones that "Max" doesn't go back and delete...... ::) )
I agree. The the vernacular is not that of some stoner kid. Although "it's" never been specific, Max writes like a woman.
Writting in the second hand of hypotheticals and what ifs. It can't get in to too many specifics because it never really lived it. Just a few handed down anecdotal tid bits ,like the cake and candy bar stories( pretty heady inside stuff) This sounds like a neurotic mother looking for validation for having sent her kid away. Either way nothing it says adds up at all.
"More majic mushrooms please!"
:nods: :nods: :nods:
So I am not the only one who sees it !!!!
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Guys, if you can not relate to what Max's is saying then why don't you jump on another thread. Why abuse him with your creepy suspicions.
His story is not that hard to relate to if you suffered from a hard core drug addiction.
"Relate"? What, are we in group?
Next thing you'll be saying something like "Max has shared something with all of us etc."
Abuse? Please. What is "creepy" about our suspicions? They are valid suspicions based on Max's style of writing. No one is asking anyone to accept this as gospel, but look at SUCK Max's history (or do we need the admins to provide a walk-through / primer, or whatever you wanna call it?)
It's not his story I'm suspicious of, it's "his" veracity...his being who or what (a program survivor) he says he is...
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Guys, if you can not relate to what Max's is saying then why don't you jump on another thread. Why abuse him with your creepy suspicions.
His story is not that hard to relate to if you suffered from a hard core drug addiction.
"Relate"? What, are we in group?
Next thing you'll be saying something like "Max has shared something with all of us etc."
Abuse? Please. What is "creepy" about our suspicions? They are valid suspicions based on Max's style of writing. No one is asking anyone to accept this as gospel, but look at SUCK Max's history (or do we need the admins to provide a walk-through / primer, or whatever you wanna call it?)
It's not his story I'm suspicious of, it's "his" veracity...his being who or what (a program survivor) he says he is...
Well that has nothing to do with this thread. Start another thread. I was enjoying the conversation until it was derailed into creepy suspicions.
Yes sometimes being here does remind me of a encounter/rap groups.
This is about Dead, Insane or in Jail, now which one is or was it.
Ya wanna starts some hogga-ma-louch, Mr. Bad Self. :rofl: :rofl:
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Alright, fair enough... I will admit my point was definitely off topic.
I still don't know why you consider my suspicions "creepy," but that's ok.
Another thread it is (it'll have to be later, though, unless someone else here feels like starting it..)
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ok once AGAIN..... ill splain it to you DEAD? everybody dies,so big fuckin deal, INSANE? well if programe horseshit is sanity,cancel my subscription and sign me up for crazy, IN JAIL, big fuckin deal ,it s survivable,unless you "aint about shit" to start with.........thanks for playin along :cheers:
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Dead insane or in jail?
I think we pretty much covered it.
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whooter wrote;
" I have also read a few posters who claim the programs saved their lives"
And again I ask, besides max suck, then who?
You and Danny B are the only ones around here that agree with "it"!
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whooter wrote;
" I have also read a few posters who claim the programs saved their lives"
And again I ask, besides max suck, then who?
You and Danny B are the only ones around here that agree with "it"!
Oh, over the years there has been many a passerby who stops in to tell us how the program helped them, saved their lives, got them back on track etc. They dont usually stick around because fornits is not exactly friendly towards pro program posters.
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whooter wrote;
" I have also read a few posters who claim the programs saved their lives"
And again I ask, besides max suck, then who?
You and Danny B are the only ones around here that agree with "it"!
Oh, over the years there has been many a passerby who stops in to tell us how the program helped them, saved their lives, got them back on track etc. They dont usually stick around because fornits is not exactly friendly towards pro program posters.
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How does this relate to Dead Insane or Jail ???
Awww screw it... ::deadhorse::
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How does this relate to Dead Insane or Jail ???
Awww screw it... ::deadhorse::
The OP applies because there are people who come to this sight and indicate that the program saved their life. So this being said the phrase "Dead,Insane or in Jail" would be an accurate description of some of these kids if they didnt get the help they need.
That is the way I view it anyway. I dont see the last few posts as running off topic.
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whooter wrote;
" I have also read a few posters who claim the programs saved their lives"
And again I ask, besides max suck, then who?
You and Danny B are the only ones around here that agree with "it"!
None-ya, I said the program kept my insane crazy ass alive. Period. Remember I went to Elan!!!!!!!
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The dead insane in jail bit was just used as a way to attack kids by staff in my program. It was a complete manipulation, they used it as a challenge to kids because there is no way to refute their all powerful definition of you as an out of control failure. But using this phrase in a coercive fashion is to be expected under the system that these programs have their staff and 'students' act within.
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Dead, insane, or in jail is just a catch phrase that struck a chord with people. From aa or synanon through the seed / striaght and then the rest of the world.Why this phrase is anything more than nostalgia today is beyond me
But I guess it works on some people
that's all i got.
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Wait a minute (sometimes i' ride the little bus)
But if all through history the graveyards , mental hospitals , and prisons always seem to be full to the limit, I'd say that Dead, insane, or in jail is a pretty good probability for just about any one, any where any time.
now i'm out
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The dead insane in jail bit was just used as a way to attack kids by staff in my program. It was a complete manipulation, they used it as a challenge to kids because there is no way to refute their all powerful definition of you as an out of control failure. But using this phrase in a coercive fashion is to be expected under the system that these programs have their staff and 'students' act within.
Yup and unfortunately that descriptor can follow you into adulthood no matter how false it was/is. That's why so many people who dare to criticize programs are just written off as "disgruntled druggies" or people who "couldn't commit" etc., despite the fact that it was never the case in the first place for many of us.
I think the DIJ phrase was more of a manipulation tool on the parents. Tell them that their kids will DIE without the program and they'll keep their wallets open.
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think the DIJ phrase was more of a manipulation tool on the parents. Tell them that their kids will DIE without the program and they'll keep their wallets open.
It really is powerful that way. They exploit ones natural fears, fanning them into un-natural and exaggerated levels that begin to feel like an inevitability. Program parents often express to those having doubts that their kid is as good as dead if the leave the program. The more extreme of them can seem a disturbingly gleeful that your kid is bound to die if you've dared to leave the program or criticize it. I can not explain why but I can tell you that even when all ones intellect is screaming that the program is not to be trusted - that they are clearly using coercive persuasion on parent and student alike, and that there is mounting evidence serious levels of abuse are common - your emotional response nearly overpowers it, demanding you stick with this program b/c your kid is as good as dead of you don't. The fear is very real and very powerful and the programs use it masterfully to control the parents.
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.
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The dead insane in jail bit was just used as a way to attack kids by staff in my program. It was a complete manipulation, they used it as a challenge to kids because there is no way to refute their all powerful definition of you as an out of control failure. But using this phrase in a coercive fashion is to be expected under the system that these programs have their staff and 'students' act within.
Yup and unfortunately that descriptor can follow you into adulthood no matter how false it was/is. That's why so many people who dare to criticize programs are just written off as "disgruntled druggies" or people who "couldn't commit" etc., despite the fact that it was never the case in the first place for many of us.
I think the DIJ phrase was more of a manipulation tool on the parents. Tell them that their kids will DIE without the program and they'll keep their wallets open.
Yeah, that's all it was. Will just put this "quote" right over here in this nice little ole box and just forget about it. Thanks for that simplistic answer.
One nagging thought I have, what do we do with all the adolescent criminals, drug addicts/mentally maladjusted due to drugs and the dead bodies???????
Oh, that right this is not happening in this world. This world consist of kids that were sent to programs, institutions, jail and their death beds because there parents were manipulated into those conclusions. There was nothing wrong with any of these kids.
Damn It, then why do they keep dying......
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Many fornits posters exploit peoples fears also. They use the words Brain Washing, Gulag, prison, Rape, Death, Kidnapping etc. when speaking about programs. So I think it is generally accepted, here, that it is fair to play on peoples fears and programs cannot be singled out as the only ones to do this.
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Dead insane or in jail has been used so much, it's no more relevant than "where's the beef".
(showing my age again)
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I think the descriptive of having been in danger of being "dead, insane or in jail" sans the program ... also dovetails rather nicely with the preferred self-image of the fully kool-aid perfused TC apologist. It sometimes seems like the baaaad part of these people's lives gets exaggerated ... to better emphasize the contrast with their lives once they "saw the light."
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I think the descriptive of having been in danger of being "dead, insane or in jail" sans the program ... also dovetails rather nicely with the preferred self-image of the fully kool-aid perfused TC apologist. It sometimes seems like the baaaad part of these people's lives gets exaggerated ... to better emphasize the contrast with their lives once they "saw the light."
Exactly, each side is trying to get their point across by exaggerating..... "Dead, Insane or in Jail"... vs. "Gulag, Prison, Kidnapping". It is meant to get people thinking about whether they should place their child or not. You need to consider the down side and not just the up side.
Although, I don't personally think Dead or in Jail is exaggerating in most cases.
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Dead insane or in jail has been used so much, it's no more relevant than "where's the beef".
(showing my age again)
:rofl:
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I think the descriptive of having been in danger of being "dead, insane or in jail" sans the program ... also dovetails rather nicely with the preferred self-image of the fully kool-aid perfused TC apologist. It sometimes seems like the baaaad part of these people's lives gets exaggerated ... to better emphasize the contrast with their lives once they "saw the light."
Exactly, each side is trying to get their point across by exaggerating..... "Dead, Insane or in Jail"... vs. "Gulag, Prison, Kidnapping". It is meant to get people thinking about whether they should place their child or not. You need to consider the down side and not just the up side.
Although, I don't personally think Dead or in Jail is exaggerating in most cases.
Mmm. I think the point I was trying to make is that some people want to see themselves in having been in such a sorry state. That is, it has nothing to do with someone else placing their kid in a program or not. It has entirely to do with taking on such a melodramatic ethos in order to rationalize one's decisions and to bring greater importance to one's life.
The profound lows, the exhilarating highs, the obligatory illumination that provides the pat answers... Kind of like a psychological or spiritual variation of the classic rags to riches tale.
I s'pose it's human nature to exaggerate the extremes, but... while not wishing to undermine the direness of the straits some folk really were in, I think some folk do take it to a perverse degree of self-delusion or even narcissism.
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I think the descriptive of having been in danger of being "dead, insane or in jail" sans the program ... also dovetails rather nicely with the preferred self-image of the fully kool-aid perfused TC apologist. It sometimes seems like the baaaad part of these people's lives gets exaggerated ... to better emphasize the contrast with their lives once they "saw the light."
and you seem to minimize the bad parts, because as many here, you have no idea what there experiencing. The whole world of TTI, is not as you experienced/lived it.
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I think the descriptive of having been in danger of being "dead, insane or in jail" sans the program ... also dovetails rather nicely with the preferred self-image of the fully kool-aid perfused TC apologist. It sometimes seems like the baaaad part of these people's lives gets exaggerated ... to better emphasize the contrast with their lives once they "saw the light."
Exactly, each side is trying to get their point across by exaggerating..... "Dead, Insane or in Jail"... vs. "Gulag, Prison, Kidnapping". It is meant to get people thinking about whether they should place their child or not. You need to consider the down side and not just the up side.
Although, I don't personally think Dead or in Jail is exaggerating in most cases.
Mmm. I think the point I was trying to make is that some people want to see themselves in having been in such a sorry state. That is, it has nothing to do with someone else placing their kid in a program or not. It has entirely to do with taking on such a melodramatic ethos in order to rationalize one's decisions and to bring greater importance to one's life.
The profound lows, the exhilarating highs, the obligatory illumination that provides the pat answers... Kind of like a psychological or spiritual variation of the classic rags to riches tale.
I s'pose it's human nature to exaggerate the extremes, but... while not wishing to undermine the direness of the straits some folk really were in, I think some folk do take it to a perverse degree of self-delusion or even narcissism.
Well done, one problem, this explanation works for you and your kin but has nothing to do with the reality a lot of kids face.
Now whether a program, parent or child is manipulating is not the point here (IMO), keeping children from death, insanity or juvenile detention centers is.
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Although, I don't personally think Dead or in Jail is exaggerating in most cases.
That's because you support kiddie prisons, gulags, and kidnapping. You disprove your own point by showing that programmies are not exaggerating when they tell kids who shake off the brainwashing and walk out that they will soon be 'dead, insane, or in jail '. It was a common catch phrase among the staff when I was locked up at HLA. Anytime any kid got out he was assured of his fate. The funny thing is that I stay in touch with many of my former inmates, and the ones who escaped the program before completion are better adjusted now than the ones who completed it.
No one is exaggerating John, on either side. Thank you for proving that point.
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Although, I don't personally think Dead or in Jail is exaggerating in most cases.
That's because you support kiddie prisons, gulags, and kidnapping. You disprove your own point by showing that programmies are not exaggerating when they tell kids who shake off the brainwashing and walk out that they will soon be 'dead, insane, or in jail '. It was a common catch phrase among the staff when I was locked up at HLA. Anytime any kid got out he was assured of his fate. The funny thing is that I stay in touch with many of my former inmates, and the ones who escaped the program before completion are better adjusted now than the ones who completed it.
No one is exaggerating John, on either side. Thank you for proving that point.
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Although, I don't personally think Dead or in Jail is exaggerating in most cases.
That's because you support kiddie prisons, gulags, and kidnapping. You disprove your own point by showing that programmies are not exaggerating when they tell kids who shake off the brainwashing and walk out that they will soon be 'dead, insane, or in jail '. It was a common catch phrase among the staff when I was locked up at HLA. Anytime any kid got out he was assured of his fate. The funny thing is that I stay in touch with many of my former inmates, and the ones who escaped the program before completion are better adjusted now than the ones who completed it.
No one is exaggerating John, on either side. Thank you for proving that point.
The underlined words are examples of terms used only on fornits in the context of adolescent treatment programs. So when people here accuse people like me of using "program speak", or even this poster referring to program catch phrases, don't forget that fornits has developed it's own language, and catch phrases. These are used, of course, in an attempt to make programs seem much worse than they are, but that is obvious. From this point on I am going to refer to this phenomenon as "fornits speak".
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Again, no one is exaggerating anything on the anti child abuse side. No one needs to make these programs sound worse than they are, they're bad enough all on their own.
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Again, no one is exaggerating anything on the anti child abuse side. No one needs to make these programs sound worse than they are, they're bad enough all on their own.
:tup:
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Although, I don't personally think Dead or in Jail is exaggerating in most cases.
That's because you support kiddie prisons, gulags, and kidnapping. You disprove your own point by showing that programmies are not exaggerating when they tell kids who shake off the brainwashing and walk out that they will soon be 'dead, insane, or in jail '. It was a common catch phrase among the staff when I was locked up at HLA. Anytime any kid got out he was assured of his fate. The funny thing is that I stay in touch with many of my former inmates, and the ones who escaped the program before completion are better adjusted now than the ones who completed it.
No one is exaggerating John, on either side. Thank you for proving that point.
This proves my point that there are gross exaggerations in many of the stories. 10s of thousands of kids attend these programs every year and I have never seen a report (outside of fornits) where the FBI needed to get involved to solve any or all these cases for kidnapping. Try to locate a Gulag within the US or Kiddie prison.
You exaggerate your stories Bruce the same way you exaggerate the time you spent in one. Most of the readers know that we need to take it with a grain of salt.
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This proves my point that there are gross exaggerations in many of the stories. 10s of thousands of kids attend these programs every year and I have never seen a report (outside of fornits) where the FBI needed to get involved to solve any or all these cases for kidnapping. Try to locate a Gulag within the US or Kiddie prison.
You exaggerate your stories Bruce the same way you exaggerate the time you spent in one. Most of the readers know that we need to take it with a grain of salt.
Yet you still can't seem to back that claim up John. You can't because you got your information about someone else entirely through a violation of HIPPA laws when an HLA staff member talked to you openly about a former inmate. You won't admit that because you're a coward and hate accountability.
I was in HLA for about a year John, I can prove it, and you have nothing that can refute that fact.
The more you lie about this the more people I'll continue to expose you to. I know you really are who we say you are, I know you know who I can and will contact, I know you know who I have and have not yet contacted. Choose wisely Johnny.
Remember you have no credibility on here John, no one with any degree of common sense or at least half a brain takes anything you say seriously. Especially when you're too scared to ever back up your claims.
Now, you've already been warned about staying on topic and not attempting to derail threads. This is your last warning, the next time I'm going to Psy and will ask for your removal.
That being said I'll answer your question with a question. If we're all exaggerating about how abusive these places are, why are so many of these places being shut down? Why are so many of them being forced to settle or pay judgements to kids claiming abuse? Why are so many kids dying in these places? You get back to me on that and others Johnny.
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This proves my point that there are gross exaggerations in many of the stories.
Nope, sorry, that doesn't prove shit..
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I was in HLA for about a year John, I can prove it, and you have nothing that can refute that fact.
3 weeks... Bruce. Your nose is growing.
(http://http://www.alexross.com/dc13%20pinocchio%20donkey.jpg)
That being said I'll answer your question with a question. If we're all exaggerating about how abusive these places are.
no, Robert, not if you were exaggerating. I just caught you exaggerating in the previous post. If you were not exaggerating about the kidnapping then you would have provided posts to Americas most Wanted or other notable news reports. Kidnapping under-aged children is a capital offense and all these thousands of kidnappings of children being placed in Gulags would have made the news.
The readers know that you exaggerate your stories, Bruce, you have just proved it to us. I suggest that you stay on topic and not start up with all your HIPPA statements and trying to blackmail me into staying quiet about your short stay at HLA.
I would suggest you take that over to the "OFFA" forum. Thanks in advance.
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3 weeks... Bruce. Your nose is growing.
Then prove it Johnny. If you're so certain then prove it. For once back up your claim. Until then you're just this:
(http://http://www.forumspile.com/You-Are-Full_of_Shit_(Toilet).jpg)
no, Robert, not if you were exaggerating. I just caught you exaggerating in the previous post.
Regarding what Johnny? What did you catch me exaggerating about? So far I've seen you babbel on about quite a bit, but you don't seem to be able to back anything up. Until you do you're just:
(http://http://www.forumspile.com/You-Are-Full_of_Shit_(Toilet).jpg)
If you were not exaggerating about the kidnapping then you would have provided posts to Americas most Wanted or other notable news reports. Kidnapping under-aged children is a capital offense and all these thousands of kidnappings of children being placed in Gulags would have made the news.
Johnny let's not waste bandwith or time. You as a industy insider are very familiar with the use of escorts to deliver kids from their homes to programs. A child forcibly removed from their home without their consent, often literally grabbed out of bed in the middle of the night and taken without any notice or warning to another location sounds like kidnapping. I know you have trouble with how to use a dictionary, but you might want to look it up. A gulag is a system of prisons and forced labor camps, usually used to silence dissidents where prisoners were fed starvation diets and abused. Sounds pretty familiar. Again, grab a dictionary Johnny, ask for help if you need it.
The readers know that you exaggerate your stories, Bruce, you have just proved it to us. I suggest that you stay on topic and not start up with all your HIPPA statements and trying to blackmail me into staying quiet about your short stay at HLA.
While you're looking up those other terms in the dictionary I recommend you look up what blackmail actually means. It's become apparent you dont really understand the concept. Again, I understand you hate accountability, but I'm not letting you move forward until you come clean. You can wiggle wiggle but you can't get free. Stings doesn't it Johnny? No one with any common sense or half a brain believes your nonsense. You're only convincing your fellow kool aid drinkers. No one who matters or contributes anything.
Oh, I've decided I'm going to email your sister Catharine next. You've got about 22 hours left to either back up your claim, or acknowlege you made it up. While you're deciding stay on topic or take it your garbage depot. Everything you say really belongs there, but it's best to compartamentalize your nonsense. Get to it.
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So bottom line is that you cannot back up your kidnapping charge. All the readers know that it isnt true, we all watch the news. Just another exaggeration to add to the RB list. If you can come up with just one investigation which is pending (and supply the link) then I will discuss it. Otherwise we will treat it like all your other claims:
(http://http://lauriekendrick.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/pinocchio.jpg)
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Well let me ask you Johnny, when you had Max and Mike (before he killed himself due to your actions) shipped off to their programs, did you use an escort service?
While you're answering that we're all still waiting for you to actually back up your claims or stop lying. Until you do you're just this:
(http://http://www.forumspile.com/You-Are-Full_of_Shit_(Toilet).jpg)
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Well let me ask you Johnny, when you had Max and Mike (before he killed himself due to your actions) shipped off to their programs, did you use an escort service?
So you are trying to derail the thread again by changing the subject to this Reuben guy. Take this down to the "offa" thread.
We were talking about "dead, insane or in Jail" and you claimed that kids are kidnapped and taken to Gulags. We havent seen any evidence of this and were curious if this was just another one of your exaggerations or if you had some links to support your claims.
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Not at all Johnny, I'm waiting on you to answer the simple question put to you. When you shipped your sons off to their gulags, did you use escorts? Not the kind you pick up in Atlantic City but the ones that work in your industry. Simple yes or no John.
In the meantime no one is expecting you to back up your claim regarding my incarceration at HLA. Everyone knows you can't and it just gets added to the list of the multiple lies you've told on here. Too bad for you I'm forcing you to be accountable for it. We aren't moving forward until you own up. It's for your own good.
Wiggle wiggle but you can't get free. Stings doesn't it John?
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Not at all Johnny, I'm waiting on you to answer the simple question put to you. When you shipped your sons off to their gulags, did you use escorts? Not the kind you pick up in Atlantic City but the ones that work in your industry. Simple yes or no John.
In the meantime no one is expecting you to back up your claim regarding my incarceration at HLA. Everyone knows you can't and it just gets added to the list of the multiple lies you've told on here. Too bad for you I'm forcing you to be accountable for it. We aren't moving forward until you own up. It's for your own good.
Wiggle wiggle but you can't get free. Stings doesn't it John?
Look, Bruce, take this to the "offa" thread. I never had any sons who went to programs nor have a sister named Cathrine. You are delusional and should contact "controlling troll" (you guys think alike). You are free to threaten and email anyone you like. But I think you have a sickness of some type contacting these people who lost a son and brother to suicide and the recent death of their wife and mother. You lack a soul, Bruce, but do what you have to do if it keeps your adrenaline going, I guess. Maybe contact PODKs and Niles they solve their internal personal issues the same way you do. Maybe you can create a porn site together and humiliate the whole family!! But either way you cant blackmail me into lying and siding with you.
Just start being honest with the posters here and join in the conversation you may find that you enjoy it without threatening people all the time.
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Whooter, I can't keep track of the who says what and all the attendant aliases and conspiracy theories. I have no idea if you are John, Dick or Harry or even John's hairy dick, but the problem is when you talk about honesty after admitting you have faked not just names (which I don't give a shit about unless you impersonate someone here), but perspectives and personas. Maybe you should worry a little less about other people's conpsiracy theories and more about what YOU do to perpetuate them.
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The posters here should thank Whooter for taking the time to even talk to them. Here is a reasonable adult, taking questions and responding to what amounts to spoiled and angry children. Have anybody here ever babysat or raised kids, at that age when they keep asking questions rapid fire, one after the other? Why is the sky blue?! Where does the sun go? Why do you do this? Why do you do that? This is what it's like for Whooter on fornits, and yet he puts up with it day after day, and brings nothing but maturity and common sense to a forum severely lacking both.
Whooter has to deal with a group of bitter, angry adults who still have daddy and mommy issues, and question Whooter as if he's a surrogate parent representative of every parents who ever sent a kid to a program. Not only that, but people also attribute programs themselves to him, because he's known as a rich investor that owns lots of programs. It's almost as if everything people hate, is conveniently wrapped up into one tidy package for people to unload their hate, and family issues all at once. It's amazing to me how much people obsess and get angry of Whooter, who holds very reasonable views on this industry, actually. There are people out there who work day and night helping parents send kids to programs, you know, real edcons, not the imaginary ones who post on fornits. Yet people ignore the people who work to send kids to programs in reality, and focus in on their delusional creation here, and spend literally years trolling Whooter for apparently no reason at all, other than they are angry and don't have any other outlet for it.
That's why people should thank Whooter for putting up with all their immature bullshit, because without him, there'd be a bunch of 'survivors' arguing amongst themselves. Instead Whooter provides a useful foundation for the creation of a straw man which they routinely and ceremonial burn, representative of all their long held hatred for their own family, and secretly themselves. Without Whooter, all you'd have left is your hate and nobody to unload it on. Well, you could always write your parents a letter, but where's the fun in that.
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Whooter, I can't keep track of the who says what and all the attendant aliases and conspiracy theories. I have no idea if you are John, Dick or Harry or even John's hairy dick, but the problem is when you talk about honesty after admitting you have faked not just names (which I don't give a shit about unless you impersonate someone here), but perspectives and personas. Maybe you should worry a little less about other people's conpsiracy theories and more about what YOU do to perpetuate them.
Look Samara, there were many people who logged in under many aliases (ask around I am not the only one). For the most part (personally) I did this to ward off the trolls and attacks on me since I was in the minority thinking on this board. With the new rules we need to move away from attacking each other and trying to figure out each others identity and exposing them. The trolling should end. I dont really care who you are in real life or how many identities you logged in under.
But anyway, I think this discussion is better suited for the "open free for all thread" (offa) this is getting off topic. I would be glad to discuss this with you further on another thread if your like.
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Look, Bruce, take this to the "offa" thread. I never had any sons who went to programs nor have a sister named Cathrine. You are delusional and should contact "controlling troll" (you guys think alike). You are free to threaten and email anyone you like. But I think you have a sickness of some type contacting these people who lost a son and brother to suicide and the recent death of their wife and mother. You lack a soul, Bruce, but do what you have to do if it keeps your adrenaline going, I guess. Maybe contact PODKs and Niles they solve their internal personal issues the same way you do. Maybe you can create a porn site together and humiliate the whole family!! But either way you cant blackmail me into lying and siding with you.
That's so strange John, because I remember a time when you told me that I had to take your side in an argument or you would "release some very damaging and embarrassing information" that you claimed an HLA staffer had given you. You didnt seem to understand that I found your threats meaningless, and knew you had nothing. You actually enjoyed believing you were holding something over me.
It's odd that your quote above seems to describe that exact same situation. What would make a person like yourself lie about an abuse survivor? What make you attempt to blackmail an abuse survivor into taking your side in an online argument? What kind of sick individual must you be to try and threaten and attempt to blackmail someone who was abused as a child? Who simply because you lost countless arguments with me and were embarrassed time and time again feel the need to try lie and claim I'm gay? Who after losing argument after argument has to accuse the people who embarrassed him of being child molestors? The abuse of this industry you sent your own children to is highlighted again and again, so knowing you can't dismiss the claims, you lie about the amount of time I spent locked up in HLA. And after all that you're still naive enough to think you're convincing someone of something. You need some serious help John. Maybe you can look into opening up a behavior modification program for over the hill child abuse supporters like yourself, Max, and Karen.
The part is that I've said many times that given the fact that you are an industry insider you really could offer a unique perspective to the conversation. You however are more interested in playing games and burying the truth about the abuses in these places. Maybe you could try some honesty John, stop all the lying and see how that works out for you.
In the meantime I'm interested to know whether you utilized escorts when you locked your kids up in their programs. Simple question John, remmber you don't have to lie about it.
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The posters here should thank Whooter for taking the time to even talk to them. Here is a reasonable adult, taking questions and responding to what amounts to spoiled and angry children. Have anybody here ever babysat or raised kids, at that age when they keep asking questions rapid fire, one after the other? Why is the sky blue?! Where does the sun go? Why do you do this? Why do you do that? This is what it's like for Whooter on fornits, and yet he puts up with it day after day, and brings nothing but maturity and common sense to a forum severely lacking both.
Whooter has to deal with a group of bitter, angry adults who still have daddy and mommy issues, and question Whooter as if he's a surrogate parent representative of every parents who ever sent a kid to a program. Not only that, but people also attribute programs themselves to him, because he's known as a rich investor that owns lots of programs. It's almost as if everything people hate, is conveniently wrapped up into one tidy package for people to unload their hate, and family issues all at once. It's amazing to me how much people obsess and get angry of Whooter, who holds very reasonable views on this industry, actually. There are people out there who work day and night helping parents send kids to programs, you know, real edcons, not the imaginary ones who post on fornits. Yet people ignore the people who work to send kids to programs in reality, and focus in on their delusional creation here, and spend literally years trolling Whooter for apparently no reason at all, other than they are angry and don't have any other outlet for it.
That's why people should thank Whooter for putting up with all their immature bullshit, because without him, there'd be a bunch of 'survivors' arguing amongst themselves. Instead Whooter provides a useful foundation for the creation of a straw man which they routinely and ceremonial burn, representative of all their long held hatred for their own family, and secretly themselves. Without Whooter, all you'd have left is your hate and nobody to unload it on. Well, you could always write your parents a letter, but where's the fun in that.
:roflmao:
:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:
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Look Samara, there were many people who logged in under many aliases (ask around I am not the only one). For the most part (personally) I did this to ward off the trolls and attacks on me since I was in the minority thinking on this board. With the new rules we need to move away from attacking each other and trying to figure out each others identity and exposing them. The trolling should end. I dont really care who you are in real life or how many identities you logged in under.
But anyway, I think this discussion is better suited for the "open free for all thread" (offa) this is getting off topic. I would be glad to discuss this with you further on another thread if your like.
Wait wait wait......are you actually trying to claim that you impersonated other posters and trolled yourself in an effort to avoid trolls?
:roflmao
Come on now John, you're not even trying.
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Whooter, way to flip the script. Agreed, it's one thing to have a different name but another entirely to adopt contradictory personas AND pretend to be a poster that already exists. And to be clear, I think it is bullshit when anyone does that. But come on - you were the biggest talent in this regard. And possibly the only one who did it without your tongue in cheek, which is malevolent.
Anyway, I gotta go because I must prepare my altar to you as per Maxi's instructions. Damn, if I only had your picture for my shrine. This way, I won't end up deadinsaneorinjail.
(Maxi - you must be cracking your ass off at your suggestion. You know you did it strictly to goad.)
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Whooter, way to flip the script. Agreed, it's one thing to have a different name but another entirely to adopt contradictory personas AND pretend to be a poster that already exists. And to be clear, I think it is bullshit when anyone does that. But come on - you were the biggest talent in this regard. And possibly the only one who did it without your tongue in cheek, which is malevolent.
Ah, you are so easily fooled, Samara. Many people did this much more than I. As far as I can remember I posted only "one" post as another poster whe exists here in retaliation of them adopting my name (TheWho) and adding a period after it. I didnt post endlessly as other posters or other aliases in a long term attempt to deceive people. I would adopt a name make a post or two (to even the scales) and then stop. I didnt keep a juggling game alive with several aliases going at once. Although I did guest post for while there and answer my own posts to keep the rhetoric going. But I had plenty of company in those threads and flame wars.
There were endless threads by poster(s) trying to convince the readers that I was this guy Reuben and they used various sockpuppets in their attempts, but this doesnt seem to concern you as much? interesting. Is this because they take an anti-program stance?
Anyway, I gotta go because I must prepare my altar to you as per Maxi's instructions. Damn, if I only had your picture for my shrine. This way, I won't end up deadinsaneorinjail.
(Maxi - you must be cracking your ass off at your suggestion. You know you did it strictly to goad.)
That went over my head.
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No, Whoo, actually, I don't think it is okay for anyone to do that, and all that fooling around took my interest out of here for a loooooong time. I actually did say something to a few, just not on open forum. And, it's not about anti program. I keep explaining it, but you ain't listening, Lucy! It is because I think you have zero empathy for people who I KNOW bear lifelong scars as a result of their program. But actually, in a thread that you authorized dozens of names came up for you, including names veryclose to existing posters, and some of your aliases were agreeing or disagreeing with you own damn self.
Naive? Guilty. But I don't get it and I don't think this is the place for it. That is my opinion.
The altar carp wasn't really directed at you, but Maxi, who thinks we should kiss your ass. Indubitably, she was insincere. Which is why I said her "Respect the Who" post was designed to goad. And yeah, I took the bait! :)
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No, Whoo, actually, I don't think it is okay for anyone to do that, and all that fooling around took my interest out of here for a loooooong time. I actually did say something to a few, just not on open forum. And, it's not about anti program. I keep explaining it, but you ain't listening, Lucy! It is because I think you have zero empathy for people who I KNOW bear lifelong scars as a result of their program. But actually, in a thread that you authorized dozens of names came up for you, including names veryclose to existing posters, and some of your aliases were agreeing or disagreeing with you own damn self.
Sorry, Samara, I dont recall (except 1) taking on another persons identity who was real or posting here (that I recall). Can you name the person? Again, there were many other people trolling besides my self. You single me out because I happen to be moderate to pro-program. When I see you getting pissed at anti-program people for the same thing then I will see your argument as sincere. But so far you are just bitter and blind and only want to see what makes you feel good (not the truth). I have sat here and read many posts slamming program parents and I know what they go through and you have zero empathy for people you cant relate to.
I have called you on this before, Samara. You are so transparent and consistent. Many people are doing the same thing yet you single me out and let the others slide because you agree with their position. Let me tell you again... many people took on aliases and responded to their own posts. I started doing this in response to the others. I didnt invent multiply aliases lol. You are using me to dump your anger on, Samara. Open your eyes.
Here is just one example of many posters on fornits, Samara.....Dysfunction Junction swore up and down that he never logged in as anyone other than himself and never guest posted. When we had his posted tied together we found dozens of aliases that he posted under and 3,500 guest posts. The John Reuben Threads alone were up to 90% posted by DJ under various aliases. Talking to himself and posting various disgusting sexual degrading posts and posting as parents, survivors and trying to take over my name. But this seems to be okay with you.
How many other posters on fornits had multiple log ins do you think?
Naive? Guilty. But I don't get it and I don't think this is the place for it. That is my opinion.
I agree, but I hope you see that your attacks should be spread out and not just focused on me if you are to be considered sincere.
The altar carp wasn't really directed at you, but Maxi, who thinks we should kiss your ass. Indubitably, she was insincere. Which is why I said her "Respect the Who" post was designed to goad. And yeah, I took the bait! :)
Hmmm.
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In your War of Credibility with DJ, I believe your posts far outnumbered his? It was in OFFA. And all your IDs listed because you gave Psy permission. And, I have stated my issues against unethical postings by people who share -gasp- some of my views. I have done it privately and publically. But you can't ask me to defend you when you partake. It's like defending a corrupt politician against another corrupt politician.
As far as me being transparent? And Predictable, too? Oh, for the love of God! Terrible! Jesus, that's pretty much what people do in order to remain credible, but wtf, maybe I'm off track here.
You pretty much know where I stand. I hate people who don't give a shit about trauma imposed on others.
Programs are a whole other ball of wax. I understand how scary it is for parents who actually give a hoot to watch their child spiral. I have also seen traumatized people suffering PTSD up close and personal and it is heartbreaking. I know what happened to me and my family and how we were manipulated and pitted against each other. It was very scary.
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In your War of Credibility with DJ, I believe your posts far outnumbered his? It was in OFFA. And all your IDs listed because you gave Psy permission. And, I have stated my issues against unethical postings by people who share -gasp- some of my views. I have done it privately and publically. But you can't ask me to defend you when you partake. It's like defending a corrupt politician against another corrupt politician.
Look, I dont care about credibility, Samara, (I say what I say) I was talking about your obvious bias. 2 people can do the same thing but you turn a blind eye to the one who supports your views. Psy listed DJ and my posts (not just mine) and actually they were the same, you can ask psy. The aliases I found for DJ came from just 4 threads (DJ spent weeks going through my entire past). You only see what you want to, Samara, and it is so obvious its funny. Its also funny that you dont see it yourself. Like yourself no one will point this out to you because you support their point of view the same as you would never have this same conversation with DJ lol... see what I mean?
People know you live by the double standard, Samara, but you are safe that you will never be called out on it (accept for maybe myself).
It makes you a shitty person in my opinion and very insincere.
As far as me being transparent? And Predictable, too? Oh, for the love of God! Terrible! Jesus, that's pretty much what people do in order to remain credible, but wtf, maybe I'm off track here.
You pretty much know where I stand. I hate people who don't give a shit about trauma imposed on others.
Programs are a whole other ball of wax. I understand how scary it is for parents who actually give a hoot to watch their child spiral. I have also seen traumatized people suffering PTSD up close and personal and it is heartbreaking. I know what happened to me and my family and how we were manipulated and pitted against each other. It was very scary.
I on the other hand have seen kids who were turned around by these places and wonder what would become of them if they didnt have the help of a program. I have seen what parents go through and read of parents who didnt have the benefit of a program lose their child to drugs and depression, suicide. Many , like yourself, dont care to see this side of the TTI and pretend it doesnt exist.
I have seen the kids who didnt do well just like yourself. But I have also seen the kids who did well, big difference.
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Ah, you are so easily fooled, Samara. Many people did this much more than I. As far as I can remember I posted only "one" post as another poster whe exists here in retaliation of them adopting my name (TheWho) and adding a period after it. I didnt post endlessly as other posters or other aliases in a long term attempt to deceive people. I would adopt a name make a post or two (to even the scales) and then stop. I didnt keep a juggling game alive with several aliases going at once. Although I did guest post for while there and answer my own posts to keep the rhetoric going. But I had plenty of company in those threads and flame wars.
Which people John? What was your 'one' alias? I know for a fact that you had at least two set up to impersonate me, in addition to your flooding and spamming the board in an attempt to attribute your own post to me (If you'll recall that was the first time you were banned). You're claiming you only created this alias as a means of retaliation against me for impersonating you with another username. The truth of the matter is though that I've never posted under a different screen name. I had nothing to do with any of the impersonations, because as I've said many times, I don't play the same games you play. The boards are chock full of instances with you admonishing other posters (occasionally yourself) for proving you wrong, or as you claim trolling you, and time and time again accusing them of being me. Most of the times though I wasn't even involved in the conversation. I warned you about your arrogance. You were foolish enough to believe there was only one person on the board who called you on your nonsense, and dared to held you accountable.
More than that though, you aren't addressing Samara's point. She's calling you on the fact that you not only impersonated other posters ( I am by no means the only one, this information is already out there, you might as well be honest about it) but you posted under various guises. You have claimed to be multiple ages, genders, you've claimed to be a staffer, a student, a prospective parent, and an abuse victim.
All of this only further adds creedence to the fact that you are only here to play games and bury pertinant information. Your arrogance once again does you a diservice, in that you believe you have some degree of credibility. Anyone who comes on here sees you exactly for what you are right away. A program stoolie whose intent is nothing more than to waste time and avoid the truth.
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Who: You do a great job evading responsibility for your deception.
Oh, boo hoo! A person with no empathy thinks I am a shitty person. Shoot me.
PS. Of course I've got a bias - but you have lied about me. That is a direct experience. I haven't followed all of your crap with DJ. Yours' came at me. To my knowledge, he has not impersonated you the way you have with RB. I will defend innocent people like Morgan, but I'm not going to jump in and defend you and your ball of confusion, Sweet Cheeks.
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parents who didnt have the benefit of a program lose their child to drugs and depression, suicide
You mean parents like yourself? Your own kid died under this program you swear by. How many other kids have to be abused or die before you wake up. Stop drinking the kool aid John. Wake up.
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And Whooter, for you to say I didn't do well? I am a good provider, a loving and available mother, a good friend, a good girlfriend. I don't drink enough and I'm not on drugs (I know a lot of you think I'm missing out! :)). Hell, I'm not even under psychiatric care. I work hard in addition to pursuing post graduate and volunteer work. But, you're right, I guess, according to you, I didn't do well.
Why is it that? Because I don't have the financial resources to send my kid to a program? Or because I have the moral fortitude not to?
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Who: You do a great job evading responsibility for your deception.
Oh, boo hoo! A person with no empathy thinks I am a shitty person. Shoot me.
PS. Of course I've got a bias - but you have lied about me. That is a direct experience. I haven't followed all of your crap with DJ. Yours' came at me. To my knowledge, he has not impersonated you the way you have with RB. I will defend innocent people like Morgan, but I'm not going to jump in and defend you and your ball of confusion, Sweet Cheeks.
I am not looking for your support nor want it (anyone who knows me knows this much). I just wanted to expose the type of person you are, Samara, because you deceive people. People who stay silent and allow harmful events to occur is one thing (its shitty and its wrong). But those who accept actions from one group and then pretend to show concern by calling out someone they dont like on the exact same issues shows that you are insincere to the core and cannot be trusted.
I was successful in exposing this I believe.
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man, you are delusional. ummm... a guy who impersonates and lies about people exposes someone who doesn't? Interetsing tactic. let me know how that works out for ya.
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3 weeks... Bruce. Your nose is growing.
Then prove it Johnny. If you're so certain then prove it. For once back up your claim. Until then you're just this:
(http://http://www.forumspile.com/You-Are-Full_of_Shit_(Toilet).jpg)
no, Robert, not if you were exaggerating. I just caught you exaggerating in the previous post.
Regarding what Johnny? What did you catch me exaggerating about? So far I've seen you babbel on about quite a bit, but you don't seem to be able to back anything up. Until you do you're just:
(http://http://www.forumspile.com/You-Are-Full_of_Shit_(Toilet).jpg)
If you were not exaggerating about the kidnapping then you would have provided posts to Americas most Wanted or other notable news reports. Kidnapping under-aged children is a capital offense and all these thousands of kidnappings of children being placed in Gulags would have made the news.
Johnny let's not waste bandwith or time. You as a industy insider are very familiar with the use of escorts to deliver kids from their homes to programs. A child forcibly removed from their home without their consent, often literally grabbed out of bed in the middle of the night and taken without any notice or warning to another location sounds like kidnapping. I know you have trouble with how to use a dictionary, but you might want to look it up. A gulag is a system of prisons and forced labor camps, usually used to silence dissidents where prisoners were fed starvation diets and abused. Sounds pretty familiar. Again, grab a dictionary Johnny, ask for help if you need it.
The readers know that you exaggerate your stories, Bruce, you have just proved it to us. I suggest that you stay on topic and not start up with all your HIPPA statements and trying to blackmail me into staying quiet about your short stay at HLA.
While you're looking up those other terms in the dictionary I recommend you look up what blackmail actually means. It's become apparent you dont really understand the concept. Again, I understand you hate accountability, but I'm not letting you move forward until you come clean. You can wiggle wiggle but you can't get free. Stings doesn't it Johnny? No one with any common sense or half a brain believes your nonsense. You're only convincing your fellow kool aid drinkers. No one who matters or contributes anything.
Oh, I've decided I'm going to email your sister Catharine next. You've got about 22 hours left to either back up your claim, or acknowlege you made it up. While you're deciding stay on topic or take it your garbage depot. Everything you say really belongs there, but it's best to compartamentalize your nonsense. Get to it.
:tup:
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:tup:
Unfortunately RobertBruce came up empty on providing evidence that kids were kidnapped (as he claimed happened). So we have no choice but to assume he was making things up and exaggerating again.
Sine we now know he was exaggerating with his kidnapping stories we need to question all his other stories that he has told here.
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No John, the kidnapping claim was proven. You just didn't like that fact so you tried to drop the matter entirely. The rest of us agreed that kidnapping is involved with this industry.
As to all of my other claims. I'm a much more honest person than you are, but if you want to bring up specific claims, I'll be glad to address them.
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No John, the kidnapping claim was proven.
Link to the thousands of kidnappings?
Reputable News agency or FBI report would do.
Then you can work on locating all these kiddie prisons that you speak of. If these are exaggerations then just be honest.
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No problem Johnny, just as soon as you back up your multiple claims regarding me. Get to it, I'm not letting you move forward until you do. Stings doesn't it? You can wiggle wiggle but you can't get free.
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No John, the kidnapping claim was proven.
Link to the thousands of kidnappings?
Reputable News agency or FBI report would do.
Then you can work on locating all these kiddie prisons that you speak of. If these are exaggerations then just be honest.
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No problem..
We will be here waiting. Oh, no are you going to email someones mother!! lol
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We're just waiting on you John. Let us know what you come up with.
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Bobby, it will be okay. You got caught exaggerating again. Just be honest and I will not call you on it. Maybe if you email and harass someones' family about their dead siblings you will feel better. That seems to work for you.
(http://http://www.corbisimages.com/images/67/01DA915E-3F87-4803-8DF3-E2BBF6AE8E34/BE048506.jpg)
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John, we're talking about you right now. Don't try and deflect the issues.
We're waiting on you to back up your claims regarding me. Go ahead, the floor is yours.
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John, we're talking about you right now. Don't try and deflect the issues.
We're waiting on you to back up your claims regarding me. Go ahead, the floor is yours.
This thread is getting derailed lets take it Here (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=31253):
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I think the descriptive of having been in danger of being "dead, insane or in jail" sans the program ... also dovetails rather nicely with the preferred self-image of the fully kool-aid perfused TC apologist. It sometimes seems like the baaaad part of these people's lives gets exaggerated ... to better emphasize the contrast with their lives once they "saw the light."
Exactly, each side is trying to get their point across by exaggerating..... "Dead, Insane or in Jail"... vs. "Gulag, Prison, Kidnapping". It is meant to get people thinking about whether they should place their child or not. You need to consider the down side and not just the up side.
Although, I don't personally think Dead or in Jail is exaggerating in most cases.
Mmm. I think the point I was trying to make is that some people want to see themselves in having been in such a sorry state. That is, it has nothing to do with someone else placing their kid in a program or not. It has entirely to do with taking on such a melodramatic ethos in order to rationalize one's decisions and to bring greater importance to one's life.
The profound lows, the exhilarating highs, the obligatory illumination that provides the pat answers... Kind of like a psychological or spiritual variation of the classic rags to riches tale.
I s'pose it's human nature to exaggerate the extremes, but... while not wishing to undermine the direness of the straits some folk really were in, I think some folk do take it to a perverse degree of self-delusion or even narcissism.
Well done, one problem, this explanation works for you and your kin but has nothing to do with the reality a lot of kids face.
Now whether a program, parent or child is manipulating is not the point here (IMO), keeping children from death, insanity or juvenile detention centers is.
This was the last post before it started to get derailed. Lets pick it up here:
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Yes John, please stop constantly trying to derail threads with your trolling. We can discuss your unsubstianiated claims and lies you've told elsewhere. In the meantime this thread is dedicated to discussing why pro child abuse people such as yourself constantly attempt to use the same tired fear tactic again and again in an effort to coerce parents and kids into remaining in ineffective abuse programs.
So what are your thoughts?
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Mmm. I think the point I was trying to make is that some people want to see themselves in having been in such a sorry state. That is, it has nothing to do with someone else placing their kid in a program or not. It has entirely to do with taking on such a melodramatic ethos in order to rationalize one's decisions and to bring greater importance to one's life.
The profound lows, the exhilarating highs, the obligatory illumination that provides the pat answers... Kind of like a psychological or spiritual variation of the classic rags to riches tale.
I s'pose it's human nature to exaggerate the extremes, but... while not wishing to undermine the direness of the straits some folk really were in, I think some folk do take it to a perverse degree of self-delusion or even narcissism.
An interesting discussion. I agree that there is exaggeration on both sides in some cases. (Dead insane and in Jail may be exaggerated by some programs to help the placement along). Like you mentioned the "melodramatic ethos" serve to rationalize ones decision. This would have to equally apply to those survivors who choose to tell dramatic stories of kidnappings and being held prisoner in gulags. We know these are fantasies but they are told for a reason. Maybe because these descriptive words relieve them of any responsibility for their part in being placed into the program. I mean how can we blame a kid who was kidnapped and placed in a Gulag. None of that could have been his/her fault right (if they were kidnapped)? If a survivor tells this story they are viewed as a victim and can play the part. where as if they say they went to Juvy or a RTC people would ask "What did you do to get your ass placed in there?" By saying they were kidnapped they deflect all responsibility for the placement and avoid having to explain how they screwed up.
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But... but... but... I was innocent. I swear!
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But... but... but... I was innocent. I swear!
Okay mister Bruce we will let you out early from HLA as long as you stop threatening to send more emails to my wife. lol
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It's true! I was a straight A student, and captain of the debate team, and never did anything wrong. Then one day my parents gave me a ride to the airport and said I was going to summer camp. When I got picked up by two burly men, they took me to a program and there my soul was destroyed and I left a program robot. Now I can't work and am on disability for the brainwashing, and use drugs all day long because I was permanently damaged in the five thousand dollar a month treatment center my parents sent me to fifteen years ago.
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Geeesh, Its so obvious that it is the parents who have all the problems, why don’t people see this? You shouldn’t blame yourself, its extremely clear that your parents lacked parenting skills. I bet after they placed you they took a trip around the world to celebrate the relief they had from parenting you. I heard almost every parent does this.
So if two burly men picked you up at the airport then that is clearly kidnapping. They could have easily hired men of normal weight and strength but they didn’t , they hired “burly men” so they were intentionally trying to be abusive.
Give it another few years and maybe your parents and the program will apologize to you for their actions.
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It's true! I was a straight A student, and captain of the debate team, and never did anything wrong. Then one day my parents gave me a ride to the airport and said I was going to summer camp. When I got picked up by two burly men, they took me to a program and there my soul was destroyed and I left a program robot. Now I can't work and am on disability for the brainwashing, and use drugs all day long because I was permanently damaged in the five thousand dollar a month treatment center my parents sent me to fifteen years ago.
You mock. So you don't think there are innocent people who get sent to these places? You don't think there are any who are telling the truth? You don't think that there is anybody out there for who the whole experimental cult crap didn't mix well? I guess what i'm asking is whether you think we're all liars in denial, or just the majority of us?
Sure some might be lying, but the details of their stories often makes such things hard to lie about. If one kid describes being forced to, for example, give a lapdance in a french maid's outfit, and another person several years later who had never head of the first girl reports the same exact thing, and other students confirm the story, it's even less likely. Because we know at this point the program will lie, it's worth hearing the kid's story out, especially if it is confirmed by so many else. There are no secrets in program.
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The average asshole on the street is insane...and so am I!
But a program never solved anything, certainly not in my case.
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Frankly, I don't see how the practices in my program would be helpful to any challenging child. I simply don't believe an atmosphere of emotional abuse, LGAT attack modalities, and insularity and fraud can behelpful. Whether or not a kid is innocent according to the definition of innocence set by Maxi or O5 is irrelevent. An atmosphere that lacks transparency, accountability, or therapeutic integrity is not acceptable for ANY child.
And again... what about the parents? I mean, they ain't "innocent" either. Some parents or home environments were more "challenging" than others, but I don't see them rushing off to rehab themselves.
PS. Straight A's and Captain ship only mean you are book smart and possibly work hard. I knew a lot of staright A kids who were lying klepto assholes from hell and kids who were not so hot in school who were by FAR better people.
I also knew kids who were ambushed an transported who never raised a hand to anyone. That is a serious betrayal. If my parents did that to me, I would think they were cowards, wimps, and liars. I would never trust them again.
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It's true! I was a straight A student, and captain of the debate team, and never did anything wrong. Then one day my parents gave me a ride to the airport and said I was going to summer camp. When I got picked up by two burly men, they took me to a program and there my soul was destroyed and I left a program robot. Now I can't work and am on disability for the brainwashing, and use drugs all day long because I was permanently damaged in the five thousand dollar a month treatment center my parents sent me to fifteen years ago.
You mock. So you don't think there are innocent people who get sent to these places? You don't think there are any who are telling the truth? You don't think that there is anybody out there for who the whole experimental cult crap didn't mix well? I guess what i'm asking is whether you think we're all liars in denial, or just the majority of us?
Sure some might be lying, but the details of their stories often makes such things hard to lie about. If one kid describes being forced to, for example, give a lapdance in a french maid's outfit, and another person several years later who had never head of the first girl reports the same exact thing, and other students confirm the story, it's even less likely. Because we know at this point the program will lie, it's worth hearing the kid's story out, especially if it is confirmed by so many else.
What would motivate a parent to send their kid to a behavior program that costs thousands of dollars a month, for no reason at all? What about hundreds, or even thousands of parents, what is their motivation to keep programs in business with kids who are completely normal and doing well at home?
There are no secrets in program.
Of course there are, this is absurd.
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The reason is because the same kids who ended up in programs as teens are the people who also grow up to be the people who end up insane, in jail or dead from drug overdose. How many teens do you know who were straight A students with no issues, that suddenly developed a drug addiction in their 30's? Being a troubled teen is a symptom of a problem that has a good chance of lasting a long time, so they try to intervene and help before it gets out of control. If you were in a program you belong to a population of individuals who have more issues than people who didnt' go to programs as teens, sad but true.
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Being a troubled teen is a symptom of a problem that has a good chance of lasting a long time, so they try to intervene and help before it gets out of control. If you were in a program you belong to a population of individuals who have more issues than people who didnt' go to programs as teens, sad but true.
LIES.
Very gross generalization, for starters.
You must really think people who read this are stupid, don't you, Max?
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Being a troubled teen is a symptom of a problem that has a good chance of lasting a long time, so they try to intervene and help before it gets out of control. If you were in a program you belong to a population of individuals who have more issues than people who didnt' go to programs as teens, sad but true.
LIES.
Very gross generalization, for starters.
You must really think people who read this are stupid, don't you, Max?
TRUTH.
Mine font is bigger so it must be true.
Why is it this is the only website, where people who went to programs post, that I see people openly bragging about illegal drug use? So why did your parents pull you out of Space Camp, and send you to a program, when you were doing so well? This is called the program paradox, every kid claims they were there for no reason, yet programs are still filled with kids. It's a paradox!
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What would motivate a parent to send their kid to a behavior program that costs thousands of dollars a month, for no reason at all? What about hundreds, or even thousands of parents, what is their motivation to keep programs in business with kids who are completely normal and doing well at home?
I never said doing well at home. Obviously that is going to be the case, but whether the kids did anything wrong is another thing altogether. Take the gay kid who gets sent off to get "fixed" or the kid that's there because he/she dresses in black. That happens. Some parents are conned by slick advertising. Some parents are conned by being told that their kid has a worse problem than they really do (if any). There are so many ways parents get sucked in.
They pay because they care about the wellbeing of their kids and the program takes advantage of that. Because they care they'll want the best, and trust the "professionals" to do it. So the'll take the kid, train him to bark on command and demonstrate for the parents (eg: forced confession letter to parents). The parents end up thinking the kid is making progress. They pay more, and more, and more, as they're fed a narrative that the kid is making progress but just needs more time.
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An interesting discussion. I agree that there is exaggeration on both sides in some cases. (Dead insane and in Jail may be exaggerated by some programs to help the placement along). Like you mentioned the "melodramatic ethos" serve to rationalize ones decision. This would have to equally apply to those survivors who choose to tell dramatic stories of kidnappings and being held prisoner in gulags. We know these are fantasies but they are told for a reason. Maybe because these descriptive words relieve them of any responsibility for their part in being placed into the program. I mean how can we blame a kid who was kidnapped and placed in a Gulag. None of that could have been his/her fault right (if they were kidnapped)? If a survivor tells this story they are viewed as a victim and can play the part. where as if they say they went to Juvy or a RTC people would ask "What did you do to get your ass placed in there?" By saying they were kidnapped they deflect all responsibility for the placement and avoid having to explain how they screwed up.
Again, kids have no reason to lie about the abuse in these places. The truth is bad enough as it is.
The situation you're describing is easily applicable to the pro abuse side. Parents and programmies use this sad and tired fear tactic as a means of aleviating themselves of guilt:
Yes, we abused you, yes we denied you your rights, yes we violating numerous laws and statutes regarding your treatment. Yes we lied to your parents, yes we actively sought to deny you contact with the outside world in order to keep you quiet. Yes we played mind games and emotionally abused you. Yes we're going to deny all of this later on. It's all true, but we feel THE ENDS JUSTIFY THE MEANS afterall, if we didn't you'd be deadorinjail.
By claiming that if they hadn't abused us we would be dead or in jail, people like yourself are free to try and avoid respondsibility for your actions.
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Okay mister Bruce we will let you out early from HLA as long as you stop threatening to send more emails to my wife. lol
They didn't let me out John, I escaped. They tried to get me back but the cops took my side. They generally pick the side that isn't trying to break the law.
As to your wife, don't be stupid, she died years ago. Still waiting on you to respond over in the OFFA forum, let me know when you work up the courage.
What would motivate a parent to send their kid to a behavior program that costs thousands of dollars a month, for no reason at all? What about hundreds, or even thousands of parents, what is their motivation to keep programs in business with kids who are completely normal and doing well at home?
Maybe because they're bad parents. You add creedence to the thought that you never actually attended a program. Given your blatence ignorance on virtually all things that seem to be across the board in all of these programs it seems hard to believe you were ever actually in a program.
Of course there are, this is absurd.
I think he's refering to the secrets of kids locked into the programs. They aren't permitted secrets.
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What would motivate a parent to send their kid to a behavior program that costs thousands of dollars a month, for no reason at all? What about hundreds, or even thousands of parents, what is their motivation to keep programs in business with kids who are completely normal and doing well at home?
I never said doing well at home. Obviously that is going to be the case, but whether the kids did anything wrong is another thing altogether. Take the gay kid who gets sent off to get "fixed" or the kid that's there because he/she dresses in black. That happens. Some parents are conned by slick advertising. Some parents are conned by being told that their kid has a worse problem than they really do (if any). There are so many ways parents get sucked in.
They pay because they care about the wellbeing of their kids and the program takes advantage of that. Because they care they'll want the best, and trust the "professionals" to do it. So the'll take the kid, train him to bark on command and demonstrate for the parents (eg: forced confession letter to parents). The parents end up thinking the kid is making progress. They pay more, and more, and more, as they're fed a narrative that the kid is making progress but just needs more time.
So programs are filled with gay goth kids with ignorant, easily duped, yet also wealthy, parents? Programs exist because parents want them, not the other way around.
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What would motivate a parent to send thousands of dollars? Fuck, look at the way American has lived for decades. We buy buy buy anything marketed. The home and cars and clothes we can't afford. The latest get rich quick or diet scheme. We spend thousands upon thousands we don't have. Or we waste what we do have.
Even my kids - I can barely hold my own in our schoold district and yet I paid the least for the best district in some hopeful belief they will benefit later. My life would be less stressful if I just lived in a so-so district.
Many of us buy emotionally, too. Programs tend to be emotional decisions. (Unless you are a cold stone prick.)
Some parents spend money because they want to help their kids and they don't know how. Others have the money and they basically pay the heft for the same reason men buy hookers - they pay them so they leave. I can't even tell you how many kids got caught in some weird divorce-remarriage dynamics. Often it is just an ego/power thing. They have a very narrow vision of how kids should behave. There is no room for individuality. Like pray away the gay camps. Some are just desperate and tired and done. And I get it. I would love to know what the good thing to do for that scenario, but how do you entrust your child in a program that is not transparent and carries unilateral power?
In any case, if you send your kid to a program, it is very, very, very likely you need to evaluate your own damn self.
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Hedge wrote:
In my facility, the mantra was dead-or-in-jail. Maybe because the "insane" was already presumed to be true.
It's been hard for me to recognize this mantra as being an untruth. After all, many of us were already almost dead, and some of us had already been in jail. That's what made it look like a fact.
I can see now how it was used to manipulate us. But I was wondering: how have other people dealt with this mantra as adults?
How have you been able to get it out of your head, away from your expectations for yourself and for the other kids who were in programs with you?
DannyB II wrote:
I may not like the "quote" because for a lot of folks I knew this was the reality. It never was a mantra for me.
Psy, this was my original answer to her post and I am very comfortable with it. Why are you starting threads for me. I am not the one who derailed this thread. I just answered her question honestly for me and left it at that.
Hedge, I meant no disrespect nor was I playing games when I wrote this post.
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how have other people dealt with this mantra as adults?
How have you been able to get it out of your head, away from your expectations for yourself and for the other kids who were in programs with you?
Ok folks. These two questions were the focus of the thread. Let's try to stick to it.
"how have other people dealt with this mantra as adults?"
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I have no problem with this phrase. I guess I don't take everything so literally, become over analytical or the big thing here is I don't have any negative past history with the saying.
How have you been able to get it out of your head, away from your expectations for yourself and for the other kids who were in programs with you?
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Well for me the expectations of a dope fiend/Alcoholic aren't good to begin with, throw in child abuse at home and incarceration from 12-18 for various offenses and your chances of success or staying alive dwindle to very low odds.
So as I said above this phrase made sense to me and others.
I actually used the phrase as a rallying cry, to be better then what this phrase was saying.
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It's true! I was a straight A student, and captain of the debate team, and never did anything wrong. Then one day my parents gave me a ride to the airport and said I was going to summer camp. When I got picked up by two burly men, they took me to a program and there my soul was destroyed and I left a program robot. Now I can't work and am on disability for the brainwashing, and use drugs all day long because I was permanently damaged in the five thousand dollar a month treatment center my parents sent me to fifteen years ago.
You mock. So you don't think there are innocent people who get sent to these places? You don't think there are any who are telling the truth? You don't think that there is anybody out there for who the whole experimental cult crap didn't mix well? I guess what i'm asking is whether you think we're all liars in denial, or just the majority of us?
Sure some might be lying, but the details of their stories often makes such things hard to lie about. If one kid describes being forced to, for example, give a lapdance in a french maid's outfit, and another person several years later who had never head of the first girl reports the same exact thing, and other students confirm the story, it's even less likely. Because we know at this point the program will lie, it's worth hearing the kid's story out, especially if it is confirmed by so many else. There are no secrets in program.
Psy, honestly now, don't you and many here believe the same way toward folks who don't see things they way you do. Folks around here call them liars, cons, cruel, hateful, delusional, suffering from Stockholm's ect.....
Your example of the "lapdance" is posted on at least 7 different web sites and has been there for awhile. That story has been handed around like a bastard child. Folks take a story around here no matter how old it is and present it at times like it happened yesterday.
Programs don't lie, certain staff members lie, today. Children also lie but I would personally allow for the benefit of the doubt until I found out the truth.
@Robert, children don't lie..... :rofl:
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Programs exist because parents want them, not the other way around.
No, programs exist because programs capitalize on the fact that many parents are either scared, stupid, or lazy.
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Programs exist because parents want them, not the other way around.
No, programs exist because programs capitalize on the fact that many parents are either scared, stupid, or lazy.
NO, Max's was right, parents want these programs. Keep your ears open, you'll hear it.
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The reason is because the same kids who ended up in programs as teens are the people who also grow up to be the people who end up insane, in jail or dead from drug overdose. How many teens do you know who were straight A students with no issues, that suddenly developed a drug addiction in their 30's? Being a troubled teen is a symptom of a problem that has a good chance of lasting a long time, so they try to intervene and help before it gets out of control. If you were in a program you belong to a population of individuals who have more issues than people who didnt' go to programs as teens, sad but true.
You are an unabashed liar. Again, I seriously doubt you were ever in a program as a teen, perhaps you work in one though now.
My own life proves you wrong. I was sent to HLA for no reason, I never listened or bought into any of their nonsense and am infintely better off for it. I live a happy healthy life without drugs, criminal record, or mental instability. Whatsmore I know many, many people from my time locked up in HLA who are living the same life. In fact I know far more kids who escaped and are living stable lives as adults now versus kids who stayed locked up and still have issues from their incarceration.
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No, I'm right. Parents only turn to these places because they're afraid, naive and desperate, or because they are stupid, lazy and bad parents.
A market never needs an ineffective abusive industry. It just tolerates ones that can temporarily get away with it.
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Why is it this is the only website, where people who went to programs post, that I see people openly bragging about illegal drug use? So why did your parents pull you out of Space Camp, and send you to a program, when you were doing so well? This is called the program paradox, every kid claims they were there for no reason, yet programs are still filled with kids. It's a paradox!
It's not a paradox at all. What you're doing is making the assumption that programs are popular because they provide good services. They're popular because they run an effective con. They market to all sorts of problems such as adhd, aspergers, cutting, eating disorders, and the list goes on and on, none of which would require institutionalization. They make it sound like if they don't get their kids "fixed", they're on an inevitable path towards death, insanity, or jail. The kid's don't leave until they believe it either.
If you are telling me that nobody in program with you didn't belong there then i'm going to have to seriously doubt whether you were in a program.
As to the actual topic. What helped me was realizing my future is for the most part what I make it, not some fatalistic drift on a self fulfilling prophecy towards oblivion. What helped me was understanding how the program really worked and that they lied to me in so may ways. What helped me was questioning everything and being determined to prove the fuckers wrong.
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It's not a paradox at all. What you're doing is making the assumption that programs are popular because they provide good services. They're popular because they run an effective con. They market to all sorts of problems such as adhd, aspergers, cutting, eating disorders, and the list goes on and on, none of which would require institutionalization. They make it sound like if they don't get their kids "fixed", they're on an inevitable path towards death, insanity, or jail. The kid's don't leave until they believe it either.
If you are telling me that nobody in program with you didn't belong there then i'm going to have to seriously doubt whether you were in a program.
So all the hundreds of programs, and wilderness programs and treatment available for teenagers, it's all a big con? I think that's a bit of an over reach, even for fornits. How am I qualified to judge whether a kid should have been in the program with me? I didn't live with them at home, I don't know their parent's perspective, or even why they were sent. People kept secrets, and they weren't tortured into revealing it like some people here claim. The program I was in was like a boarding school, with group therapy every couple of months. That's like saying you believe everyone in jail who tells you they are innocent, without having knowledge of their case or the evidence, how the hell should I know if they should be there or not. There parents spending thousands of bucks per months was a fairly good indication there must be some reason.
As to the actual topic. What helped me was realizing my future is for the most part what I make it, not some fatalistic drift on a self fulfilling prophecy towards oblivion. What helped me was understanding how the program really worked and that they lied to me in so may ways. What helped me was questioning everything and being determined to prove the fuckers wrong.
Prove them wrong? By succeeding in life you are showing that they do not permanently damage people, and that maybe you were helped. to prove them wrong, you'd continue being a troubled person with drug addiction or whatever issue you were sent there for. Dead, insane and in jail isn't designed to push kids to take that path, it's exactly the opposite. It's like reality is turned upside down on fornits and called the truth, unbelievable.
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So because people had negative experiences in programs that existed 20-30 years ago, it makes it impossible that newer contemporary programs might offer something those people unfortunately did not receive? For me it's amusing that people who went to programs decades ago telling me that it's impossible I went to a program, or that I was abused but am programmed to say otherwise. As if time stands still in programs, and the experience of those in long shuttered programs of lore, somehow represents the average experience today. Contemporary programs, and wilderness programs exist because parents wants them.
It's not a scam, the parents pay a lot of money because they feel it's needed. To call it a marketing scam, simplifies an entire industry, and ignores so much of the reality of issues facing families dealing with troubled teens. Parents pay good money for programs because they are needed, and for the most part effective. Sure, some bad things happen in programs. It seems fairly rare that these negative events happen, and judging by the population here on fornits, was more common in programs that existed decades ago. It's time to accept the fact that programs have evolved into an effective and safe option for parents dealing with a troubled teen.
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If this were true across the board, this argument would be difficult to counter.
I guess then I'd say, "Well what do you know...the programs improved over the years, maybe something good grew out of evil.." or something like that..
But there is still just too much bullshit going on even today that you read about (no, not just here, Max), and in reality this would be mere wishful thinking.
Max, I really do wish that what you were saying was true, and that there was no danger in putting a kid in a program.
I can't buy it, though.
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If this were true across the board, this argument would be difficult to counter.
I guess then I'd say, "Well what do you know...the programs improved over the years, maybe something good grew out of evil.." or something like that..
But there is still just too much bullshit going on even today that you read about (no, not just here, Max), and in reality this would be mere wishful thinking.
Max, I really do wish that what you were saying was true, and that there was no danger in putting a kid in a program.
I can't buy it, though.
Saying programs are still the same because there is danger in sending a child to one is Black and White thinking. Its like saying cars are still dangerous because people still die in car accidents. But when you look at all the improvements in safety that have been made over the past decades we see there has been great progress.
If you shelve the black and white thinking look at programs the same way you will see that they have come a long way also. They use to serve the kids rotten food, monitor phones calls, were very secretive, surrounded by fences, didn’t listen to kids concerns , very few went on to college, just to name a few.
Now there are programs which have very healthy menus, allow unmonitored phone calls, allow people to come and go and conduct studies and observe the programs process, they got rid of the fences and listen to criticism and implement changes to the program based on feedback from graduates and parents. Staff are better trained, many kids move on to college etc.
So the industry is not where we would like it to be but we can see that it is improving and moving in the right direction.
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It seems to me that those programs have gotten more abusive, not less. LIFE was horrible, but they didn't have a hobbit, they never left us in dog cages for a week. According to you Max, it is apparently impossible to be a bad or irresponsible parent. This industry is indeed one big con job, jails institutions and death is just one small part of how they convince parents that hating their kids is the best thing for everyone.
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From a parents perspective I knew there was a problem long before I ever heard of the TTI. I was actively seeking solutions and working with local services. This was the case with the other parents I had spoken to also. Many used Education consultants to find the appropriate placement.
The marketing, as I have seen it, was to tout the individual programs strengths, not to convince parents their kid had a problem when they did not.
I think what would have been helpful to me was if there existed a web site which had information on various programs so that you could avoid the bad ones and make an informed choice without relying on an EdCon. I am surprised no one has developed a site like this yet.
Personally I would like to spend time going through the information at my own pace, on-line, rather than speaking to and relying on an Edcon who may be motivated by a kickback from specific programs.
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It seems to me that those programs have gotten more abusive, not less. LIFE was horrible, but they didn't have a hobbit, they never left us in dog cages for a week. According to you Max, it is apparently impossible to be a bad or irresponsible parent. This industry is indeed one big con job, jails institutions and death is just one small part of how they convince parents that hating their kids is the best thing for everyone.
Correct me if I am wrong, I believe the hobbit and dog cages are long gone. In my case I never needed convincing that there was a problem with my daughter. I had been working with local services. The other parents I had spoken to didnt need convincing that their kid would be DIJ either.
What may have occurred is this was used in a meeting or one or two programs and is now being talked about like it was a standard phrase because I never heard of it used in programs until I came to fornits.
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It seems to me that those programs have gotten more abusive, not less. LIFE was horrible, but they didn't have a hobbit, they never left us in dog cages for a week. According to you Max, it is apparently impossible to be a bad or irresponsible parent. This industry is indeed one big con job, jails institutions and death is just one small part of how they convince parents that hating their kids is the best thing for everyone.
Correct me if I am wrong, I believe the hobbit and dog cages are long gone. In my case I never needed convincing that there was a problem with my daughter. I had been working with local services. The other parents I had spoken to didnt need convincing that their kid would be DIJ either.
What may have occurred is this was used in a meeting or one or two programs and is now being talked about like it was a standard phrase because I never heard of it used in programs until I came to fornits.
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Long gone? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8VLEHQm ... re=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8VLEHQm9is&feature=related)
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It seems to me that those programs have gotten more abusive, not less. LIFE was horrible, but they didn't have a hobbit, they never left us in dog cages for a week. According to you Max, it is apparently impossible to be a bad or irresponsible parent. This industry is indeed one big con job, jails institutions and death is just one small part of how they convince parents that hating their kids is the best thing for everyone.
Correct me if I am wrong, I believe the hobbit and dog cages are long gone. In my case I never needed convincing that there was a problem with my daughter. I had been working with local services. The other parents I had spoken to didnt need convincing that their kid would be DIJ either.
What may have occurred is this was used in a meeting or one or two programs and is now being talked about like it was a standard phrase because I never heard of it used in programs until I came to fornits.
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Long gone?
Although disturbing there was no mention of dog cages or Hobbits being used. It appears that the number of WWASP programs has dwindled and many have closed. So, as an industry, they are moving in the right direction.
Its important to keep getting this information out there so that these places will be forced to change or close down and leave room for the better programs to grow and flourish.
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Well, no hobbits in the video, but the "punishment cages" are in plain view. At least a half dozen of them adjacent to the "lap track".
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Well, no hobbits in the video, but the "punishment cages" are in plain view. At least a half dozen of them adjacent to the "lap track".
Yes, but my point was that the Hobbit and dog cages were long gone. They may have "Punishment holding areas", but this has to be better than restraints or locked rooms, wouldnt you agree? If a kid starts hitting and fighting with others they need to be separated from them to prevent harm to others and to themselves. I dont think many people would object to this even here on fornits.
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...[shakes head in disgust and walks away].
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...[shakes head in disgust and walks away].
Sorry, but I just am not a fan of violence whether self inflicted or not. The kids need to be protected. I know that many here feel the best thing to do is just let them fend for themselves and they will eventually get through it, but kids can get hurt or even killed if someone doesn't step in and intervene.
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Frankly, I don't see how the practices in my program would be helpful to any challenging child. I simply don't believe an atmosphere of emotional abuse, LGAT attack modalities, and insularity and fraud can behelpful. Whether or not a kid is innocent according to the definition of innocence set by Maxi or O5 is irrelevent. An atmosphere that lacks transparency, accountability, or therapeutic integrity is not acceptable for ANY child.
And again... what about the parents? I mean, they ain't "innocent" either. Some parents or home environments were more "challenging" than others, but I don't see them rushing off to rehab themselves.
PS. Straight A's and Captain ship only mean you are book smart and possibly work hard. I knew a lot of staright A kids who were lying klepto assholes from hell and kids who were not so hot in school who were by FAR better people.
I also knew kids who were ambushed an transported who never raised a hand to anyone. That is a serious betrayal. If my parents did that to me, I would think they were cowards, wimps, and liars. I would never trust them again.
:tup: :tup:
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What would motivate a parent to send their kid to a behavior program that costs thousands of dollars a month, for no reason at all? What about hundreds, or even thousands of parents, what is their motivation to keep programs in business with kids who are completely normal and doing well at home?
Exactly what this thread is about.....fearmongering of programs screaming that their kids will DIE without them. Pay attention.
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Programs exist because parents want them
Parents have been preyed upon by programs and duped into believing that their kids are going to DIE if they don't send them off for re-education and thought reform.
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Programs exist because parents want them
Parents have been preyed upon by programs and duped into believing that their kids are going to DIE if they don't send them off for re-education and thought reform.
This is an incorrect assessment of the structure of the troubled teen industry. Parents seek the help of programs, and that is why they existed. Programs do not create a false demand, it's already there. That's why there are so many programs open for business. But I know this is all part of the fornits narrative, and I know many people here believe it. But if you talked to people outside fornits, you'd realize this is not true. I suggest you go read forums where parents seeking programs post, and then tell me these are parents who are being scammed.
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This is an incorrect assessment of the structure of the troubled teen industry. Parents seek the help of programs, and that is why they existed. Programs do not create a false demand, it's already there. That's why there are so many programs open for business. But I know this is all part of the fornits narrative, and I know many people here believe it. But if you talked to people outside fornits, you'd realize this is not true. I suggest you go read forums where parents seeking programs post, and then tell me these are parents who are being scammed.
Ok, I did as you suggested.
These are parents who are being scammed.
Anything else I can help you out with?
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It seems to me that those programs have gotten more abusive, not less. LIFE was horrible, but they didn't have a hobbit, they never left us in dog cages for a week. According to you Max, it is apparently impossible to be a bad or irresponsible parent. This industry is indeed one big con job, jails institutions and death is just one small part of how they convince parents that hating their kids is the best thing for everyone.
If programs did not exist, parents of troubled teens would organize online and end up creating their own. The demand is there, that is why programs exist. According to fornits no parent would think of sending a kid to a behavior program, then a cold calling program marketer calls them and cons them into sending their perfect child away, all to make money. In my own experience this does not come close to accurately describing how this industry is structured. The demand comes from parents, and programs compete to fulfill that demand.
I was put in isolation in the program as you describe, yet I don't consider it abuse. It was clearly explained the rules when we arrived, and if you broke certain rules, like harming yourself in particular you were placed in isolation and staff watched you all the time, because you proved to them you couldn't handle what little freedom you had in the program. There are isolation rooms in psychiatric hospitals, run by the "professionals" and regulated by the state.. They exist for a reason, and as someone who has experienced it I know it's not very pleasant, but that's the point. It motivates you to behave in a way that will prevent you from being placed in it again. That's the essence of behavior modification, and guess what, it usually works.
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The demand is there, that is why programs exist.
No doubt the demand is there now.....it's been carefully crafted and marketed by the TTI. The TTI created the demand.
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The demand is there, that is why programs exist.
No doubt the demand is there now.....it's been carefully crafted and marketed by the TTI. The TTI created the demand.
Imagine you are a single mom, the dad left long ago. You have two sons, and they are both really big, physically. One of them is a good student and doing well, but their older brother is into using drugs, partying every night and getting drunk, not going to school, and when you, the single mother confronts him, he pushes you up against the wall and threatens you. "Don't get in my way, mom, you'll regret it." You are worried that the older son will have a negative influence on the younger son, and you are desperate for help to change this situation. You are lucky enough to have a good job and can afford to send your kid to a program. So you go online, find a reputable Ed Con and begin the process of choosing a program.
This is a typical scenario for a parent seeking out a program. What part of this involves a parent getting scammed, exactly? Parents are extremely grateful programs exist, they don't need to be convinced. In my opinion this claim that parents are all gullible, easily conned people with perfect teens is just totally off base, it does not represent the reality of programs. If you see the industry this way, no wonder it's so confusing to so many of you, because you just don't get it.
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These are parents who are being scammed.
Well then, I'm sure they will be pleased to receive an email from you telling them the truth about how they are being scammed. Get to work, go save the innocent kids from getting put in a program by their gullible, naive and ironically wealthy parents. You can do it!
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This is an incorrect assessment of the structure of the troubled teen industry. Parents seek the help of programs, and that is why they existed. Programs do not create a false demand, it's already there. That's why there are so many programs open for business. But I know this is all part of the fornits narrative, and I know many people here believe it. But if you talked to people outside fornits, you'd realize this is not true. I suggest you go read forums where parents seeking programs post, and then tell me these are parents who are being scammed.
Ok, I did as you suggested.
These are parents who are being scammed.
Anything else I can help you out with?
See, Anne, you are insincere... another reason why many people dont believe your stories. You dont even take the time to read what you are fighting against. You take a sound bit here and there and believe what others tell you.
Try to think for yourself.
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These are parents who are being scammed.
Well then, I'm sure they will be pleased to receive an email from you telling them the truth about how they are being scammed. Get to work, go save the innocent kids from getting put in a program by their gullible, naive and ironically wealthy parents. You can do it!
I have and will continue to do so.
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See, Anne, you are insincere... another reason why many people dont believe your stories.
:roflmao:
Oh that's rich, coming from you!!
:roflmao:
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The demand is there, that is why programs exist.
No doubt the demand is there now.....it's been carefully crafted and marketed by the TTI. The TTI created the demand.
Imagine you are a single mom, the dad left long ago. You have two sons, and they are both really big, physically. One of them is a good student and doing well, but their older brother is into using drugs, partying every night and getting drunk, not going to school, and when you, the single mother confronts him, he pushes you up against the wall and threatens you. "Don't get in my way, mom, you'll regret it." You are worried that the older son will have a negative influence on the younger son, and you are desperate for help to change this situation.
I don't have to imagine it.....I've lived it as a parent. 'Cept it was two daughters, not sons and amazingly the "troubled" one made it through adolescence without being shipped off to strangers to be subjected to LGAT pseudo-psycho babble re-education bullshit which can only serve to make those troubles worse due to the humiliation/attack "therapy" they use.
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See, Anne, you are insincere... another reason why many people dont believe your stories.
:roflmao:
Oh that's rich, coming from you!!
:roflmao:
You do Anne, If someone said I claimed to have 2 sons you bought right into it without reading the post. If someone said I call another poster (who I willl not mention) a "child molester" then you bought it hook line and sinker... never bothered to read for yourself. Now someone told you about me not wanting a hotline because the operator would talk dirty and you just believe it without reading for yourself.
You have been like this for years, Anne, I don't think you realize it but it is obvious to the readers in my opinion.
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You do Anne, If someone said I claimed to have 2 sons you bought right into it without reading the post.
Wrong. I believe that because of my experiences with you over the years. Believe me....nobody has to convince me of it. You do a good enough job all by yourself.
Now someone told you about me not wanting a hotline because the operator would talk dirty and you just believe it without reading for yourself.
No, you wrote it and I read it. That's why I believed it. Now, care to show the link where I said that Straight helped or that I embellished or are you gonna use semantics and/or quote mining to weasel out of it yet again?
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You do Anne, If someone said I claimed to have 2 sons you bought right into it without reading the post.
Wrong. I believe that because of my experiences with you over the years. Believe me....nobody has to convince me of it. You do a good enough job all by yourself.
Now someone told you about me not wanting a hotline because the operator would talk dirty and you just believe it without reading for yourself.
No, you wrote it and I read it. That's why I believed it. Now, care to show the link where I said that Straight helped or that I embellished or are you gonna use semantics and/or quote mining to weasel out of it yet again?
Anne, the link to where you stated you embellished your stories about straight is posted right below the link where you claim I stated "I thought a hotline was a bad idea because the operator would talk dirty to the kid".
Show me that link and you will find the link you are looking for. Just like you said "You wrote it and I read it" go see for yourself.
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You do Anne, If someone said I claimed to have 2 sons you bought right into it without reading the post.
Wrong. I believe that because of my experiences with you over the years. Believe me....nobody has to convince me of it. You do a good enough job all by yourself.
Now someone told you about me not wanting a hotline because the operator would talk dirty and you just believe it without reading for yourself.
No, you wrote it and I read it. That's why I believed it. Now, care to show the link where I said that Straight helped or that I embellished or are you gonna use semantics and/or quote mining to weasel out of it yet again?
Anne, the link to where you stated you embellished your stories about straight is posted right below the link where you claim I stated "I thought a hotline was a bad idea because the operator would talk dirty to the kid".
Show me that link and you will find the link you are looking for. Just like you said "You wrote it, Anne, and I read it" go see for yourself.
So you're gonna weasel out again. It's ok.....I didn't really expect that you would follow thru. Even if I was mistaken in my interpretation of your post about the hotline (which I wasn't), at least I put forth a good faith effort and posted what I believed to be your opposition to the hotline. You don't even have the integrity to do that. But again, we've all come to expect that from you.
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I don't have to imagine it.....I've lived it as a parent. 'Cept it was two daughters, not sons and amazingly the "troubled" one made it through adolescence without being shipped off to strangers to be subjected to LGAT pseudo-psycho babble re-education bullshit which can only serve to make those troubles worse due to the humiliation/attack "therapy" they use.
Like the majority of families your kids responded to local services, family help and didnt need the services provided outside the community. Many families have kids who do not respond well to local options and family intervention and need to seek residential treatment.
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I don't have to imagine it.....I've lived it as a parent. 'Cept it was two daughters, not sons and amazingly the "troubled" one made it through adolescence without being shipped off to strangers to be subjected to LGAT pseudo-psycho babble re-education bullshit which can only serve to make those troubles worse due to the humiliation/attack "therapy" they use.
Like the majority of families your kids responded to local services, family help and didnt need the services provided outside the community. Many families have kids who do not respond well to local options and family intervention and need to seek residential treatment.
Mmmm hmmm. I was supposed to be long dead by now, but I'm still here. And along those same lines, the grandparents filled out one of those "online assessments" that programs are so fond of and, shockingly, they were told that my daughter would be deadinsaneorinjail soon if they didn't promptly enroll her in their program. Yeah, that never came true either, but it didn't stop the programs from trying to capitalize on the grandparents fears.
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So you're gonna weasel out again. It's ok.....I didn't really expect that you would follow thru. Even if I was mistaken in my interpretation of your post about the hotline (which I wasn't), at least I put forth a good faith effort and posted what I believed to be your opposition to the hotline. You don't even have the integrity to do that. But again, we've all come to expect that from you.
No your being a weasel, I explained to you what I meant and asked you to read it in context with the conversation. If you choose not to take my meaning then I have the option to chose the same. I can interpret any of your posts the way I want regardless of whether you explain your intent. I can chose not to listen to your explanation.
It can go both ways, Anne.
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So you're gonna weasel out again. It's ok.....I didn't really expect that you would follow thru. Even if I was mistaken in my interpretation of your post about the hotline (which I wasn't), at least I put forth a good faith effort and posted what I believed to be your opposition to the hotline. You don't even have the integrity to do that. But again, we've all come to expect that from you.
No your being a weasel, I explained to you what I meant and asked you to read it in context with the conversation. If you choose not to take my meaning then I have the option to chose the same. I can interpret any of your posts the way I want regardless of whether you explain your intent. I can chose not to listen to your explanation.
It can go both ways, Anne.
Fine, so have the integrity to post the link to where you THINK I said anything close to what you've claimed I have. Or, continue your tapdance to weasel out again because you know I've never written anything like that.
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You keep saying that & I keep reading current accounts of programs that are strikingly similar to how Straight operated.
Anne, please stop being stubborn. Try to accept others points of view.
Congrats, you were sopposed to be dead but not, grew up, raised two daughters that had nothing but problems and miraculously did not have to place them in some program.
I would say this has been a great life so far, keep it going.
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With all due respect, you cannot attribute the idea that I think programs are a root of all survivors' ills. That is presumptuous, and reflects the kind of thinking you rail against when it is applied to you.
To be honest, I don't think you know exactly what I think of programs but one thing I do know is I'm not simplistic enough to pin every personal weakness on a program. That is just absurd.
All I'm saying is: I don't like abusive programs; I know they exist; I believe they have effects that range from the deleterious to the traumatic. It can create, ignore, compound or exacerbate existing issues. That is what I'm saying.
I'm not saying its a get out of jail for free card, for Christ's sake.
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You keep saying that & I keep reading current accounts of programs that are strikingly similar to how Straight operated.
Anne, please stop being stubborn. Try to accept others points of view.
Congrats, you were sopposed to be dead but not, grew up, raised two daughters that had nothing but problems and miraculously did not have to place them in some program.
I would say this has been a great life so far, keep it going.
How was she supposed to be dead and why is it a miracle her kids weren't sent to programs? You're doing just what many programs do, you're making the presumption that she needed a program, and attempts she makes to defend herself are seen as denial. this is the sort of fatalistic bullshit that "dead insane in jail" is famous for. It's a lie.
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You keep saying that & I keep reading current accounts of programs that are strikingly similar to how Straight operated.
Anne, please stop being stubborn. Try to accept others points of view.
Congrats, you were sopposed to be dead but not, grew up, raised two daughters that had nothing but problems and miraculously did not have to place them in some program.
I would say this has been a great life so far, keep it going.
How was she supposed to be dead and why is it a miracle her kids weren't sent to programs? You're doing just what many programs do, you're making the presumption that she needed a program, and attempts she makes to defend herself are seen as denial. this is the sort of fatalistic bullshit that "dead insane in jail" is famous for. It's a lie.
What if we all accepted that it's true for some kids, and might not be true for other kids. Because that is a fact. The real debate lies with how many kids fall into each category, not whether one group is exclusive of the other entirely.
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Sure some kids will die from heroin poisonings and so forth, but most won't. Most teens who use, or even abuse, drugs, do not continue doing so later in life (which is not to imply all kids who are sent to program have even experimented with drugs. Many I knew had not).
And the debate, as far as i'm concerned, has very little to do with how many kids fall into each category. In my mind it's a rights based issue, as well as a practical one. Sovereign individuals have the right to govern their own bodies and forcing people, regardless of age, into treatment, is almost always going to result in failure. Even by the AA folk wisdom you claim to cherish, a person cannot be forced to deal with a problem. They have to realize they have a problem and deal with it of their own volition. Without the desire to quite it's just not going to work, and genuine, rational, long lasting desire is not something that can be forced.
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You keep saying that & I keep reading current accounts of programs that are strikingly similar to how Straight operated.
Anne, please stop being stubborn. Try to accept others points of view.
Congrats, you were sopposed to be dead but not, grew up, raised two daughters that had nothing but problems and miraculously did not have to place them in some program.
I would say this has been a great life so far, keep it going.
First, only one daughter had problems.
Second, it is a great life but I only achieved that after I dropped the mindfuck that is programs/LGATs/AA.