Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: kezzy123 on October 01, 2003, 11:46:00 PM
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I am looking for advice about school options for my troubled 14 yr old daughter. I would like to get some info regarding what types of schools have the best success records as well as some recommendations for school in the southeast. Here's what's going on: About 2 yrs ago, our daughter started developing a rather defiant, disrespectful attitude toward her mother and me. We weren't too concerned at the time because she great around everyone else. Her grades were good, she excelled at soccer, and she hung with a good crowd. Things steadily got worse. Last year, she got caught with alcohol at school and was suspended and kicked off the soccer team. The only thing that kept her out of jail was that they found no evidence - some other students turned her in. Jump to present day - her grades have fallen (she spends hardly any time on school work outside of school), her new circle of friends are of questionable character, she is disrespectful to teachers and coaches, she is constantly in detention, consistently breaks house rules, is verbally cruel to her 8 yr old brother, and is extremely defiant, just to name a few. She went to a therapist for a while but refuses to go anymore. The therapist put her on some medication which she took for a while and now refuses to take anymore. The last straw came a coupe of days ago when i confiscated some of her jewelry because she refused to go to church. She became enraged and began smashing things around the house. I let this go for a a few minutes and then had no choice but to physically restrain her. When I thought she had calmed down, I let her go, and she tried to hit me with one of her crutches (she recently had knee surgery). My son was so terrified that he ran from the house and I had to go looking for him. This is not the first time that she has smashed and broken things. One of the biggest problems that my wife and I face is that punishment does not work. If she breaks a rule and gets punished, her behavior just gets worse. Her mother and I have decided that the time has come to put her in some sort of theraputic boarding school or program. we will of course have to wait a few months until she has recovered from her surgery. We are considering a wilderness program or military school. Problem is is that everything I seem to read indicates that most of these programs do more harm than good, there are abuse reports, etc. I would like to hear some feedback from anyone who has had any positive experiences. Thanks.
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Copied from your earlier post:
sounds familiar...
Posted: 2003-04-16 07:16:00
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The arm cutting is what prompted us to get her into counseling. She admitted that she was depressed and the counselor put her on Zoloft. That did seem to help some but our daughter, out of anger and defiance, dumped them down the drain recently and refuses to take them anymore. We are not trying to have someone else raise her. We feel that, among other things, an environment change, will benefit her. Our goal is to get her some help and get her back.
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Re: Self-Mutilation: Has your child ever been screened for a personality disorder such as borderline? Please go to the following website and do some research on this illness and what kinds of treatment are available, including the latest and most promising therapy develped by Dr. Lineman. Should your daughter have a personality disorder and be placed in the wrong program, the results could be catostrophic. Good luck, I hope you find a way to help your daughter without having to separate her from her family. She is only 14 years old .....
http://www.bpdcentral.com (http://www.bpdcentral.com)
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Sounds like she is a normally kid growing up drugged on prozac.
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Sir,
Contrary to what others may think,there are some excellent options for assisting with your present family crisis.It appears your daughter is in need of help.For a compassionate,understanding person to speak with: 1-866 798-2285
I suggest that you never trust blindly,have faith, quality help is available. Best of luck.
P.S. Stay FAR away from any Teen Help /WWASP program. Far, far away.....
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Who does this number belong to? http://www.purerebuttal.com??????? (http://www.purerebuttal.com???????)? Stay far, far away from them. This is NOT the board to come to if you're looking for unbiased advice on a boarding school. They're ALL bad.
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Perhaps you should try to find a therapist she likes. They are not one-size fits all like these programs are.
A key rule in mental health is to provide treatment in the least invasive way possible that means you don't force someone into residential treatment unless they represent an imminent danger to themselves or others.
It sounds like your daughter is just really unhappy and sending her away would probably just make her feel abandoned. Sending her to one of these programs which are barely more than prisons is only going to make things worse. A short term bootcamp or wildnerness program may show an improvement innitially but the results wear off pretty fast. If the program is run well she will probably come home talking about how amazing it was but after a few months the glamour wears off.
Long term programs just isolate the kid so the program can lie to the parents about her progress. There are parents who come and post here that have not seen their kid in 2 years and insist they are doing great. Denial is not just a river in Egypt.
Best course is to find a therapist she likes and if she is not interested in medicating the problem then she should go to one who will respect her wishes. This can't be your therapist, it has to be hers.
Most of those drugs are rather unpleasant to take and its not surprising she wanted off of them.
A 14 year old has enough weirdness going on and those drugs can have all kinds of negative side effects.
Before you spend 20 thousand dollars sending her away (3 months of wildnerness or the first 4 months of gulag school ) you should consider the things that money can do in more positive reeinforcement.
20 thousand dollars can pay for most private schools. It can pay for a monthlong trip anywhere in the world for the whole familiy. Sometimes people just need a vacation, sometimes seperate ones :smile:
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Kezzy - you seem to be looking for a "perfect" place for your daughter. It sounds like you need to admit her somewhere - fast! This is not normal teenage behavior in my eyes, does it feel like that to you? I notice you wrote back in April - has anything changed, gotten worse? There are plenty of good programs out there that are under 3000.00 a month that will give you both an opportunity to get help. I had my son in a wwasp program - but there are others, I think, that offer help for the whole family. I know what it feels like to ask for help when I couldn't do it by myself. Some say keep it at home, but our kids have to be at home, be willing to live within the family values. No teen, or person is perfect, so never expect perfection, keep the communication open if your kid is even open to talking, not yelling. Identify if the behaviors, in your eyes, are normal teen behavior. Your kid is in control and you seem to be lowering your standards(by allowing this behavior in your home) to get along. You can't make her cooperate with therapy, but you can make a different choice in what you're willing to put up with. No one wants to admit their child to a program, but sometimes that is what it takes. You can't give your family a better gift if you find one that, at least, feels like the right fit.
Any program out there has the same abuse allegations. And, I wouldn't doubt, by what you wrote, that your daughter would say the same things. If you find something, go visit, talk to the teens there, both lower and upper level kids and talk to the parents of those kids if they are willing to give you some references.
If it's truly beyond taking care of her at home, it's time to get over your fear of what you read.
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Kezzy---The problem with residential treatment programs for troubled teens is the same problem with finding a good Multi-Level Marketing program to invest in or work for: It *may* be possible to build a MLM program that's not a scam, it *may* be possible to run a "troubled teen" school that's not a scam, but when you get into a game where it's common and easy for con men to scam your money and only provide the superficial appearance of "help" and "improvement" to your teen---while ultimately leaving her worse---then chances are you're going to get scammed if you play their game *at all*.
The *first* thing you need to do is *you* and your wife go into family therapy with a *good* therapist who isn't just interested in telling you what you want to hear. Deal with your own problems---because anything in your daughter's behavior that's coming from some of *your* problems that are crazy-making for your daughter will not be fixed by lesser measures.
I don't always agree with Dr. Laura on everything, but she has some good advice on getting control of a troubled teen. Strip her room. Put all her clothes and stuff in a U-Store-It facility. Get her some cheap white T-shirts, cheapo jeans, cheap sneakers, plain white sheets, plain blankets, feed her plenty of nutritious but boring food.
You are legally required to provide a roof, adequate food, adequate clothing---take her down to the legal minimum and make her earn the rest back. But make it reasonable and *possible* for her to earn the rest back.
The difference between *you* doing that and some "program" doing that is that *you* will not, of course, deprive your child of adequate nutritious (even if boring) food, or needed medical care, or appropriate education----and a "program" very well might. Plenty of programs *have*.
If she gets violent with the family, call the police and press charges. Juvie is less damaging than many of these scam troubled teen schools---the cons are so good at conning, you aren't going to be able to tell the difference between a good school and a bad con.
Now, if your daughter has a major mental illness, like major depression, bipolar disorder, or schizophrenia, which is making her violent, then she may need inpatient treatment for a limited time---but in a *real* mental hospital, not a restrictive boarding school full of underqualified pseudo shrinks.
If your daughter flunks repeated drug tests for a physically addictive drug or cocaine, or is an alcoholic, she may need inpatient treatment for a limited time---but in a *real* 12 step drug addiction program, not a restrictive boarding school full of underqualified pseudo shrinks.
If your daughter is not mentally ill or actually addicted, and is criminally violent at home anyway, then she is, sadly enough, better off in the juvenile criminal justice system---not a restrictive boarding school full of underqualified pseudo shrinks.
If she's not got a major mental illness, an actual drug addiction, and isn't committing actual criminal acts (not just status offenses), then residential treatment is a copout and an abdication of your responsibility to your child.
Nobody said teenagers were supposed to be fun to live with. Get your own psychological quirks in order, apply discipline by restricting her privileges, do your best to find a therapist she can form a rapport with, and if she's still a pill at eighteen, kick her out and let her learn from the school of hard knocks---it'll do her less harm in the long run than a bad scam program would.
Sure, programs will promise you phenomenal success rates----Too good to be true success rates---which is the best touchstone for a con-game known to mankind: "If it sounds too good to be true---it is."
Quit looking for "too good to be true" answers and cope. If it was easy, they wouldn't need you.
Not what you want to hear.
So? You're a grown up. Deal.
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Anon - you are not using Dr. Laura's philosophy, you're using ToughLove's philosophy. You know what that got me...a kid that didn't come home because he had nothing to come home to - no door on his room, nothing but a mattress on the floor.
I chose not to call the police because the juvie here is full of criminals that would have butt-fucked him - he was a very cute 14 y.o - and I knew the truth as I had toured earlier that month.
Like it was said - if you want honest non-biased advice on a boarding school option - don't waste your time here. Go to struggling teens or wwasps or do a search for teen crisis help or solutions and you'll see what's out there.
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I would truly like to get the whole family into couseling but again, my daughter refuses to go and I cannot force her. And if I take away a privelege or something as punishment for not going, her behavior just gets worse. It doesn't help matters any that my wife does not believe in counseling either. Our daughter has been grounded numerous times but after a day or two my wife will lift the grounding saying that she can't stand to have our daaughter in the house and just wants her to go somewhere with friends for a while. I think the primary problem that we have is that our daughter is very, very immature for her age. And she just doesn't get the concept of rules and the punishment for breaking them. I can't count the number of times that we have handed down a punishment, for example taking away her internet access for a week, just to have her ask the next day for it back and truly not understand when I say no. She will do things like, after getting in trouble for repeatedly being on the phone later than we allow and then ask for her own phone line. Our rules are simple. But she has stated many times that she doesn't think there should be any rules and that she should be able to do whatever she wants. So my wife and I are feeling that maybe whe should spend some time somewhere where she will realize that things at home really aren't that bad. And we need some peace. The last 2 years have put a strain on our family, marriage, jobs, and health. My wife is constantly worried sick and has stated several times that she has considered leaving. Our son is constantly getting the short end of the stick because we have to put so much time and energy towards dealing with his sister that we have very little left for him. There is a lot more to this story that could feel volumes but I'll end it here for now. Thanks to all who have responded.
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On 2003-10-02 19:36:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Kezzy---The problem with residential treatment programs for troubled teens is the same problem with finding a good Multi-Level Marketing program to invest in or work for: It *may* be possible to build a MLM program that's not a scam, it *may* be possible to run a "troubled teen" school that's not a scam, but when you get into a game where it's common and easy for con men to scam your money and only provide the superficial appearance of "help" and "improvement" to your teen---while ultimately leaving her worse---then chances are you're going to get scammed if you play their game *at all*.
The *first* thing you need to do is *you* and your wife go into family therapy with a *good* therapist who isn't just interested in telling you what you want to hear. Deal with your own problems---because anything in your daughter's behavior that's coming from some of *your* problems that are crazy-making for your daughter will not be fixed by lesser measures.
I don't always agree with Dr. Laura on everything, but she has some good advice on getting control of a troubled teen. Strip her room. Put all her clothes and stuff in a U-Store-It facility. Get her some cheap white T-shirts, cheapo jeans, cheap sneakers, plain white sheets, plain blankets, feed her plenty of nutritious but boring food.
You are legally required to provide a roof, adequate food, adequate clothing---take her down to the legal minimum and make her earn the rest back. But make it reasonable and *possible* for her to earn the rest back.
The difference between *you* doing that and some "program" doing that is that *you* will not, of course, deprive your child of adequate nutritious (even if boring) food, or needed medical care, or appropriate education----and a "program" very well might. Plenty of programs *have*.
If she gets violent with the family, call the police and press charges. Juvie is less damaging than many of these scam troubled teen schools---the cons are so good at conning, you aren't going to be able to tell the difference between a good school and a bad con.
Now, if your daughter has a major mental illness, like major depression, bipolar disorder, or schizophrenia, which is making her violent, then she may need inpatient treatment for a limited time---but in a *real* mental hospital, not a restrictive boarding school full of underqualified pseudo shrinks.
If your daughter flunks repeated drug tests for a physically addictive drug or cocaine, or is an alcoholic, she may need inpatient treatment for a limited time---but in a *real* 12 step drug addiction program, not a restrictive boarding school full of underqualified pseudo shrinks.
If your daughter is not mentally ill or actually addicted, and is criminally violent at home anyway, then she is, sadly enough, better off in the juvenile criminal justice system---not a restrictive boarding school full of underqualified pseudo shrinks.
If she's not got a major mental illness, an actual drug addiction, and isn't committing actual criminal acts (not just status offenses), then residential treatment is a copout and an abdication of your responsibility to your child.
Nobody said teenagers were supposed to be fun to live with. Get your own psychological quirks in order, apply discipline by restricting her privileges, do your best to find a therapist she can form a rapport with, and if she's still a pill at eighteen, kick her out and let her learn from the school of hard knocks---it'll do her less harm in the long run than a bad scam program would.
Sure, programs will promise you phenomenal success rates----Too good to be true success rates---which is the best touchstone for a con-game known to mankind: "If it sounds too good to be true---it is."
Quit looking for "too good to be true" answers and cope. If it was easy, they wouldn't need you.
Not what you want to hear.
So? You're a grown up. Deal."
Well said, anon. Family Therapy is definitly in order and would help to prevent this girl from becoming the SCAPEGOAT like so many other kids who end up in these programs because their parents can't as you say "deal".
:tup:
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I must have been posting while Anon was also posting about stripping her room. I had actually considered something similar. My thought was to actually back off and treat her as if she was a renter in our house with some exceptions due to the law. My thought was to tell her that her moother and I will no longer nag at her about her school work. If she fails, she attends summer school or gets held back. She's old enough to know what she needs to do and do it. We will provide what the law requires an nothing more. We will buy her clothes when absolutely necessary but they won't be coming from Abercrombie, Foot Locker, etc. Kmart will do. We will provide her with nutricious food but she is old enough to cook it herself. Her clothes will be clean only if she does her own laundry. The law does not require that she does chores nor does it require that we give her money for movies and the like. If she wants money, then she can do jobs around the house for minimum wage. If she wants a ride somewhere then she will pay us 35 cents per mile. We are not required to provide her with internet access but she can have it as long as she pays part of the bill. The list can go on and on. She will have the freedom she wants as long as it does not disrupt the household and as long as she does not break any laws. There will of course still be some rules like curfew. Thoughts? My wife thinks this is ridiculous.
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Kezzy---The problem here is *NOT* your daughter.
The problem is that you and your wife are in total disagreement on parenting styles and aren't listening to each other and coming to a truly mutual agreement and backing each other up.
No kid is going to be a good, stable, well disciplined kid in that environment unless she's a one in one hundred natural saint.
You may *believe* you're coming to a mutual agreement---but obviously you're not----you may hammer at the idea until your wife shuts up and gives in, but she gets you back and gets her way back by refusing to enforce the parts of your discipline she just doesn't agree with.
This is not a daughter problem.
This is a crazy-making parents screwy marriage problem.
You need to go to counseling and learn how to communicate with your wife so that if she doesn't agree with you you *hear* her and negotiate until the two of you genuinely reach a compromise you both can live with, instead of her saying what she needs to say to get you off her back and then doing what *she* thinks is right for you guys' daughter.
Quit blaming your daughter. The problem is in your marriage and is between you and your wife.
Sending your daughter away somewhere isn't going to fix it, because when she comes home she'll *still* be living in the crazy, inconsistent environment that is your marriage.
I notice that you are convinced that you are right and your wife is wrong. That *may* be so. More likely, you are at least *partly* wrong about *something*---so even if your wife won't go to counseling, *you* go.
In counseling, you can find out which bits *you* are wrong about, quit doing them, and at least make your kid's environment that tiny bit more sane---which is likely to pay dividends in the kid's behavior.
I tend to suspect you the Dad have a problem, because usually it's a teen son that twists Mommy around the finger, and a teen daughter that twists Daddy around the finger. Teenage years are typically a time of great friction between same sex parent and teen. If your wife is championing your daughter like you say she is, then chances are you getting counseling and fixing your problems may improve your homelife a lot----even if your wife and daughter don't get counseling for their problems, without your problems in the mix, your life will improve.
Go see a good family therapist and work on your own problems, including your marriage, before you consider residential placement of the daughter.
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One last thing I'd like to see if anyone has had any experience with. It is a school that my daughter's school counselor told me about last year. The state has a residential boarding school that is part of the state school system. A wilderness program is also incorporated into it. Being part of the schoo system means that everyone that works there is certified in their fields (counselors, teachers, etc) and it is state regulated. I plan to visit it soon.
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It looks great on paper - good for you if you are committed to enforcing this. But if either one of you is co-dependent or an enabler it won't work. She'll push you, but you are the parent, not her friend. She chose to lose her priviledges by her actions. Good luck to you both.
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You might also see if you can find a good family coach - there's something mentioned about one here, but can't seem to find it.
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On 2003-10-02 20:20:00, Anonymous wrote:
"You might also see if you can find a good family coach - there's something mentioned about one here, but can't seem to find it. "
Found it - http://www.arizonateenhelp.com/familycoaching.htm (http://www.arizonateenhelp.com/familycoaching.htm)
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On 2003-10-02 20:46:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2003-10-02 20:20:00, Anonymous wrote:
"You might also see if you can find a good family coach - there's something mentioned about one here, but can't seem to find it. "
Found it - http://www.arizonateenhelp.com/familycoaching.htm (http://www.arizonateenhelp.com/familycoaching.htm)"
Family Coach? Get real, this girl and her parents need professional therapy to help them with serious issues not some yahoo getting paid big bucks to teach them how to get in touch with their magical/inner child.
:scared:
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You wrote:
My thought was to tell her that her moother and I will no longer nag at her about her school work. If she fails, she attends summer school or gets held back. She's old enough to know what she needs to do and do it. We will provide what the law requires an nothing more. We will buy her clothes when absolutely necessary but they won't be coming from Abercrombie, Foot Locker, etc. Kmart will do. We will provide her with nutricious food but she is old enough to cook it herself. Her clothes will be clean only if she does her own laundry. The law does not require that she does chores nor does it require that we give her money for movies and the like. If she wants money, then she can do jobs around the house for minimum wage. If she wants a ride somewhere then she will pay us 35 cents per mile. We are not required to provide her with internet access but she can have it as long as she pays part of the bill. The list can go on and on. She will have the freedom she wants as long as it does not disrupt the household and as long as she does not break any laws.
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Those are all great suggestions and would probably have been beneficial for your daughter if you'd had them in place all along....without the obvious resentment and desire to punish that you're currently exhibiting. It's not her fault that you have allowed her a free ride, so to speak. She is a product of your parenting.
A parent should never do anything for a child that they are able to do themselves. My sons could cook when they were six and enjoyed doing it. Did their own laundry early- started with folding and progressed to the full task. They kept their room clean, or not. When it became uncomfortable for me, I did pull the parent trump and required it and gave a deadline for completion. As members of OUR household (and a larger cooperative society) they were required to contribute at whatever developmental level they were capable. Yardwork, cleaning vehicles, planting and harvesting the garden, sorting recycling. There are household tasks for every aged child. And when presented appropriately, they actually want to participate. Contrary to popular belief, they are not lazy and unmotivated. Helpless and hopeless might be more honest.
I got some flack, but overall they accepted it and for the most part enjoyed it. We frequently went to dinner and a movie after a big day of spring cleaning and all looked forward to it. It did help that I compiled a list of tasks that were required for a smooth running household. I put my name next to the tasks that they couldn't do and they chose between themselves which they would take, or alternate doing.
They are more than just "housemates". They are our children. But, we do them a grave disservice by not allowing (call it expecting if need be) them to take a full role.
Work is good. See if you can line up some jobs for her with neighbors and family. Don't strand her, help her brainstorm her talents and abilities. Teens need to feel they are contributing in a meaningful way. There aren't many opportunites to do that these days. We don't even have paper routes anymore. But, you could take one and have her get up with you at 3 and be done in time for school.
And about school. Chances are she's not going to turn things around and be granted a scholarship. Don't anx. It's 2203 on planet Earth. Anyone who wants to go to college can do so, no matter how bad their high school transcript looks. My son had to work for a couple of years to decide "for himself" that he wanted a college education. He worked at Taco Bell, Laid wood floors, worked the loading area at McCoys Lumber, and his last job which he really loved was on a survey crew. No external motivation is necessary because college is what HE chose and wants for himself. Was it easy. No. Always in the back of my mind I worried that he'd job hop the rest of his life. But, worst case scenerio, had he, well there ARE worse things. And it would be his choice, one that he could change at anytime.
I think many parents are just afraid to let their kids learn from their mistakes. And too many teens do not contribute in their homes or in society. I was talking to a mom of a 16 yr old girl. She doesn't know how to do ANYTHING. She doesn't even flush the toilet after herself !! That's not even "privledged" it's disabled!!! How can a parent be angry at the child for this???
Help your daughter find some creative outlets for her high voltage teen energy. But, don't punish her for your mistakes. Admit them, apologize for short changing her, and begin the dialogue about what you BOTH want and need to create a harmonious household and a constructive future for her. This is not rocket science. It doesn't even require a professional. It requires a sincere effort on your part to want to help her master her environment. You have to get honest about where you've failed her and make a comittment to right that wrong, and without resentment. She doesn't deserve your anger. Vent your anger elsewhere.
I hope you don't give up. That is not what any teen/child needs to have modeled for them...ever.
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Family Coach? Get real, this girl and her parents need professional therapy to help them with serious issues not some yahoo getting paid big bucks to teach them how to get in touch with their magical/inner child.
:scared: "
Thank you for letting them know what they need :wink: .
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In other words, Webber will use Ontological coaching to sell the parent on a program?
What are the chances she could/would do anything but that? She recruits for WWASP.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?mo ... 9&start=30 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic=2757&forum=9&start=30)
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?So ... 9&start=10 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?Sort=&topic=3093&forum=9&start=10)
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Kezzy---I'm sorry I was harsh pointing out your marriage issue, but it hit a nerve because my husband and I deal with the same thing. I think we're dealing with it a bit better (now), but I know the problem you speak of intimately because I've lived it.
You and your wife are not communicating effectively with each other about your concerns for your daughter, what she thinks should be done to handle them, what you think should be done to handle them, where you disagree, and *why* each of you has the concerns you do about the other's chosen game plan.
The *only* way for you guys to keep your daughter from having one parent as an ally against the other parent is to become allies of each other.
To do that, you're gonna have to get *good* at getting your wife to open up and tell you her real concerns, listening to them, discussing your concerns with her, and *together* coming up with a game plan for dealing with a specific instance or kind of misbehavior from your daughter so that you are both committed to enforcing that game plan.
You've gotta be on the same team. You aren't right now. It's not a matter of who's right, it's a matter of coming up with some workable compromise between you and your wife that she will be on the team to help enforce and that addresses at least some of your concerns.
It is far better for your daughter to continue with *some* objectionable behavior and have *some* of it fixed than to go on the way you are now, where Mom is alienated from you because you two aren't talking to each other constructively enough and *none* of your daughter's bad behavior is improving.
Therapy can at least help you get better at communicating with your wife so you can understand her concerns better, communicate your own concerns to her in a way more likely to actually get her to open up and listen and hear them, and a good therapist may be able to help you think of workable compromises that will address at least some of your concerns that will *also* address your wife's concerns so you can get her to actually "buy in" to whatever strategy you're using to correct a particular kind of bad behavior.
If *one* member of a couple learns to communicate better, *both* members' communication improves.
Right now, and I speak from personal experience, that's the biggest thing you need to improve your life with your daughter, get you two as the parents back in charge of the household, and get your life more in line with something you can live with.
Right now, if you send your kid off to a behavioral mod. facility, you're going to end up destroying your marriage. Because if your wife isn't on the same page with you with household discipline, she sure isn't going to be on the same page with a BM facility. And her pattern is to go along to get along and then act out passive-aggressively. You think you've seen passive aggressive getting-back-at behavior from your wife over your differences *now*? You ain't seen *nothin'* like you're gonna see if you ship her kid off to a restrictive boarding school. You do that and you'll be lucky not to find yourself in the middle of a divorce and custody battle.
And, it may be that part of the reason your daughter is acting out is that she senses the tension between you and your wife and her being the "problem child" distracts you from your marital issues and holds the family together. Perverse, I know, but it happens. It happens in a *lot* of families.
It may be that when you learn to communicate better from therapy (even if your wife doesn't go), and your relationship with your wife improves from less stress over discipline styles, your daughter's behavior spontaneously improves as she senses Mom and Dad being happier together. It's been known to happen.
Either way, you are going to have to fix your communication with your wife whether you send your daughter to a school or not. Fixing it *first* and then seeing if you still have a problem with your daughter is a lot cheaper than paying to fix it *and* paying boarding school tuition.
*Most* kids respond well to parents who present a united front with consistent limits and consistent discipline---no matter what those limits are and no matter what that discipline is. I really *strongly* suggest you fix your communication with your wife and try consistent limits and consistent discipline---even if it means totally going with what your wife thinks the limits and discipline should be (but it probably won't---*probably* if you learn to communicate and move your position towards your wife's, *she'll* want to offer something back and will move hers at least somewhat towards yours---and it will be a *genuine* move).
Try being consistent---even if the only way you can get to "consistent" is to go with your wife's standards and strategies----because "consistent" is the one thing that is the *most* likely to improve your daughter's attitude and behavior.
But your wife has a habit of saying "yes, dear" and then doing what she was going to do anyway. Without some therapy for you, you're not going to be able to break that pattern by getting her to tell you what she really thinks and getting her to start offering constructive suggestions of what *she* thinks specific problem behaviors and appropriate rewards and punishments are.
You've got to get you and her on the same team, and you can't do it without help----but you *can* do it with the help of a good therapist for you, even if she doesn't go and your daughter doesn't go.
What my husband and I do when we disagree on our daughter's bad behavior and how to handle it is send her off doing something else, go in a room, close the door, and talk. I explain what I'm seeing in our daughter's latest stunt, and what I think needs to be done about it. He explains what's bothering him most about the stunt and what he thinks needs to be done. We talk until we come up with something that deals with what's bugging him and what's bugging me without being something either of us just can't live with, and we do it---and our daughter has *both* parents coming down on the same side about her behavior and its consequences, and she shapes up.
Sometimes when we get to talking, he's seeing her behavior as worse than it is because there's something developmental he's missing from not being around her all day. Sometimes, when we get to talking, he's seeing her wrap me around her finger and I didn't see it---because I'm around all day and he's got that perspective of a little distance. Sometimes it's a little bit of both.
But we can *always* come up with something we can both live with enough to present a united front of both parents backing each other up to our kid.
But it wasn't always that way, and being able to do that didn't come easily. It took work, and you guys have fourteen years of a bad pattern and blocked up communications going on here. Get somebody to help you break that pattern and unblock them on your end, and a good therapist can probably work *through* you to unblock them on your wife's end.
Get on the same team. Improvements in your daughter's behavior will follow.
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Sir,
Some excellant suggestions have been offered here. Kids are reacting to their home environment most of the time.
If we could do it over I would have worked on our parenting skills, communications skills. I would have taken a pro active stance to improve our home,communication oppose to a reactive stance and shipped off the child.
The negative experiences the Program provided was not what we had expected. Paid a huge amount of $$$ for.
Teenagers when acting out have a tendancy to scare us parents with their personality changes.
Please do not over react. Strive for common ground. If one good therapist doesnt help,try another.
Do work together as parents. Not too harsh or too lienient. Best of luck. It does get better.
Most important...We can not control another's behavior only our own.When we change our behavior otherfamily member's behavior fall into place..Detach and stay out of the chaos being created to achive a reaction.
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On 2003-10-03 07:30:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Sir,
Some excellant suggestions have been offered here. Kids are reacting to their home environment most of the time.
If we could do it over I would have worked on our parenting skills, communications skills. I would have taken a pro active stance to improve our home,communication oppose to a reactive stance and shipped off the child.
The negative experiences the Program provided was not what we had expected. Paid a huge amount of $$$ for.
Teenagers when acting out have a tendancy to scare us parents with their personality changes.
Please do not over react. Strive for common ground. If one good therapist doesnt help,try another.
Do work together as parents. Not too harsh or too lienient. Best of luck. It does get better.
Most important...We can not control another's behavior only our own.When we change our behavior otherfamily member's behavior fall into place..Detach and stay out of the chaos being created to achive a reaction."
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http://www.txserve.org/txcvcs/download/ ... YoungU.doc (http://www.txserve.org/txcvcs/download/BrighamYoungU.doc)
The effects of youth mentoring are positive, according to a recent study by Utah State University's mentoring program. Released on the Utah Mentoring Partnership Website, the study's overall results showed that mentored youth had decreased involvement in delinquent behaviors, fewer behavioral problems at school and less participation in peer-pressured deviant behaviors.
Results revealed that 50 percent were less likely to use alcohol, 61 percent were less involved in gang activity and 58 percent less likely to miss school.
The study also found that 71 percent were less likely to steal, and 70 percent were less likely to use cigarettes or tobacco.
"I think every teen needs to be mentored," said Jessica Lang, assistant program director for Impact at the Jacobsen Service Center. "There's so many ways they can go wrong but with an example there's so many ways they can go right."
Lang, 19, is a sophomore from Oak Park, Calif., majoring in broadcast journalism.
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If your daughter had cancer, would you rely on anecdotes from friends-- or strangers-- about what treatment to get her?
Or would you look at the medical research and take the advice of professionals?
I'd do the latter two: and I can tell you from having read the research that the professionals recommend a type of therapy called multi-systemic family therapy that has been repeatedly studied for both teens mandated by the justice system and families seeking help on their own. It incorporates
what the rest of the literature shows:
1) confrontational therapies are harmful and counterproductive (see Dept. of Justice website for review)
2) boot camp settings have similar or increased recidivism for troubled teens compared to simple juvenile detention (see also DOJ, and Koch Institute on Crime study)
3) Keeping the kid at home and coping with what's going on in the family is most effective.
4) you must "meet the patient where he's at"-- ie, attract the kid into treatment with empathy, support and help meeting *the kid's own* goals.
These are typically not as far off from the parents' goals as you might suspect--it's just that they won't tell the parent or any adult seen as a source of judgment this, but will work toward it when supported and treated with empathy rather than force.
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PEACE COUNCIL
Judy Friesem, Program Manager
Seattle, Washington
206-328-5774
http://www.ccsww.org (http://www.ccsww.org)
This three-year-old service is a parent-teen mediation program for the Seattle, Washington area. Their goal is to help families with teens stay connected when things get difficult. Their ?mediators work in teams of one teen and one adult,? meeting with families and striving ?to help people in conflict communicate respectfully, shift their relationship to one that is supportive and positive, and to collaborate on agreements that work for everyone.? They have 40 volunteers ages 14-64.
http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives ... cilnp.html (http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives/2003/10/peacecouncilnp.html)
[ This Message was edited by: Deborah on 2003-10-03 14:48 ]
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Actually I rather like the idea of letter her just do everything for herself. Don't do her laundry for her, don't clean her room, don't give her money or buy her things. Don't nag her about school. It will be like college.
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I was getting bored reading all this stuff.
If she is angry and rebellious then maybe it is because she has lost her friends from the last school and is feeling sad and lonely, or maybe she is just as fucked up as you are.
Whenever anyone is angry it is because less enjoyable feelings or some other important emotion is disrupted - such as sadness or loss or embarassment.
Who the fuck wants to admit to those?
Honestly, she sounds like a teenage human and go get em type of individual who could use some new experiences to channel the energy with some positive role models and then MAYBE some boundaries - so why in the HELL would you want to destroy her WILL and FIRE by paying so much goddamn money (MONEY THAT YOU made with your own pathetic wasted, dirty, confused life and soul) and attention to the fact that she is younger than you and you and your spouse are wanting her 'not to make the mistakes you made' or you are 'wanting to give her what you never had' or some other kind of FUCKed up shit like that.
By law she has civil rights before she even emerges from the womb. If you take those away I am absolutely certain that she will find out eventually that you did it and then you will have a relative who is your m.fing enemy until more than likely long after you and your significant other are dead - and that sucks worse than someone who is not your own blood.
A different posting from someone in the know had a REALLY REALLY good suggestion.
Allow your daughter to, if she is so rebellious that you cannot stand yourselves anymore and you are jealous beyond the point of letting yourselves accept your elderliness and passage into adulthood, go to school with some Adults.
Definitely, if she is having some problems with getting over something that she lost, remember that your children look to you on how to act when they want to identify. Keeping her around family that at least claim to love her (I cannot tell if you really love her or consider her as some commodity to show to the public at this point because your sorry ass got on this site to let everyone know just how much you love her and how mad at her you are - you fucking asshole, unless this is some hoax to get survivors riled up and you have nothing better to do with your time than to write hot garbage (by the way, why do you choose to remain anonymous, are you that afraid that someone needs to step in and see that you are fucking up your daughter?)) you can subtley make her see adults by 'allowing' her go to college classes at your local community college or other. I would have eaten that up if my mom told me I could go to college or some other grown up event, she would have gotten the best out of me without me even knowing it.
As this other post stated, adults will let her know with a quickness that she is not all grown up like she thinks she is. At least this will help you bide the ouch and get over the fact that your daughter views you both as pieces of shit = like all teenagers who have DESIRE to learn and grow do to their parents. And you will save A LOT of cash in the process.
If it is something other than this, I mean if you REALLY in your heart believe that she must have some kind of mental disorder or inbalance (I think that you WANT to believe this) then remember who she came from and truly asks yourselves how are YOU wrong. What can YOU do to change instead of changing someone who cannot possibly know alot about identifying and retribution. Your daughter.
To compound the issue, it sounds like you need to humble your goddamn self a little more. In Japan the mother and father eat hardly a meal while the child prodigy feasts upon meat pies.
You are older than her so why not act like it and remember not to sell out when it comes to your most valuable child commodity. Don't listen or stick your heads into anyone who believes in any false appeal to authority, because noone can help you with this and if you take anyone's (or any of several agreed pieces of advice, or a well designed brochure for that matter containing 'proven success in ratios') advice solely on the basis that it was said then you're more fucked up than I think you already are.
I don't believe that I am the only one who feels that you may be a Lonely fucking idiot by getting on a site to tell others 'How Much' you love your daughter and how tired you are of all this. Fucking idiot, YOU need some personal counseling because you are so caught up in the loss of your own childhood and life - and then more so if this is some sort of attempt at an example of what hasn't really happened. Fucking idiot.
If you would send her to a place where there are adults, and then begin to QUIT being an AUTHORITARIAN parent (an authoritarian parent is different from the good example of an authoritative parent. Authoritarian's are assholes as they deal out punishment and act like a fucking HITLER, but they DON'T explain themselves and why it must be like that with loving STRENGTH and Confidence and back it up with further EXPLAINED consequences - either because they are not sure of themselves or because they feel they are too good to do so or they just don't care enough.), then you may see some results as you demand boundaries to her right to freedom.
I wish that you were not her legal guardians you sniveling morons, because at this point in post you have proven you are not doing a very good job and I will bet that she will be your enemy in years to come. There is nothing you can say, no example you can give that tells me that children listen to the respect their parents hope for. 'I brought you into this world so you owe me', 'I am older than you so...', 'You belong to me.', 'Because Iiii Said So.'. NOT ONE.
I am assured in looking at your posts you think that by MAKING her obey you that you will make a friend in years to come, moreover a productive member of society who has a healthy respect for who she is and others too.
If you do care then maybe you do need some time to recommit to your wife and get some help for yourselves because it sounds like either you two are not doing well in therapy (many people skip around to different therapists until they find one who works) and obviously not finding agreements on what is going to happen with the punishments, not to mention that your wife is making a damn fool of you and I know that's gotta sting. Maybe your wife feels that you are not EXPLAINING the reason for the punishment to either her and/or your daughter, and therefore your wife obviously feels a little trapped and unsure as well. That would be my hypothesis as to why she is fucking up your foot being put down. Loved ones do sometimes depend on loved ones to 'start it up'. If your wife is more or less confused than you are, then make that first attempt and start explaining yourself and your emotions dude. Then mix it up by letting your other half do some of the boundary and consequence making, even your son and daughter - they'll thank you for it. Stop dealing in ultimatums and stereotyping.
Hey, Enjoy the hell that you created!!!
Trapped and unsure and those other feelings are those less than obvious things you get a few moments before you find yourself being inconsiderate, annoying, especially angry because you want to PROTECT yourself or your pride, or perturbed because you just lost something or whatever.
Or maybe you don't kick ass and rule in the bedroom like you should dude, I don't know cos I'm not there. Doubtless you feel powerless right now, you have let this consume you and all of your privacy and private thoughts. Why not take up a hobby? Or if that is to dull for you, why not see a counselor on your own, or take up a sport or a new job or something? Have your daughter come along and meet some adults you would not mind letting them show her how it is to be kind? It may take awhile to get yourself from being ALL wrapped up in your family. You have done something right to get this damn far, now kick it up a notch. Bitch.
In my own personal mysoginistic ways I would flip the script on your wife and trick her and leave her with the children for a few days cos it sounds like she needs help too but the ship is sinking and you don't really have time to listen to, 'Im going to leave you if this persists'.
Leave those type of people alone, my father would say.
I'm through adding insult to your injured life - so - if you decide to abandon your family I will meet you in Barcelona at a place called the Barcelona Bar. They have some great chasers there that will let you forget for awhile the fact that you really suck and don't know what the hell you've done with your life you fucking emotionally unavailable idiot.
Most of this I definitely speak from experience. Except that I don't rule in the bedroom and abandon my family.
You shoulda never had kids and definitely SHOULD HAVE learned to bite the bullet enough to use protection in the nappy dugout, dude.
If you are half the man you wish you were then stop actin like a bitch and love your daughter some more cos she is testing your wife and you and her new big world to find out who she is going to be and nothing more.
My bet is on your daughter becoming just as vindictive and sad as you are, and sending her to others who promise healing will make this a fact.
I apologize. I could have summed that all up into one little sentence. Here it is:
Stop looking for confidants to your poor parenting skills because you will always suck.
I lied. I cant sum it up in one sentence because your daughter knows that you are not in charge and especially that you don't have time to figure HER out and you can't stand yourself because she's knows you and your wife are unorganized whusses (I don't know how to spell whuss but if I did I would tape it to your forehead). You have to show her you are in charge (because you know you are not) and make her pay for Your inabilities by breaking her will in two, man. Show her you are as frightened as you are making yourself out to be by posting that you are searching for a better way, dude. I know we live in a litigious society where even children are apt to call HRS on their own parents these days. The solution to that is to definitely get some 'Toughlove' and let everyone know that you are part of a dieing generation by posting to the WHOLE fuckin world that you need help with your own flesh and blood. Gone are the days of the value of a good spanking.
This post has been my wish that you enjoy your eternal hell. When you commit suicide, or your daughter does because you let that counselor you sent her to rapes her because he deals with parents like yall who want to drop off their children and let his firm babysit for you and so he sees that glimmer in her eye that tells him you won't even ask her what happened to her per each session because you blindly trust the 'goodness' in others but not your very own evil flesh and blood daughter, can I have some of your personal property??? Will you sell me your home when it starts to foreclose after the divorce in a coupla months or years there bub???
Let me know what sort of occupation your son goes into when he gets older and is succesful because you didn't lavish him with so many totalitarian tightass rules and demands - like you did separately to your first born. I may be in need of his services.
Probably he will be a counselor who will counsel your first born when she is in a psych ward because your wife and you succeeded in breaking her will to test boundaries and grow. At least you succeeded in breaking her will to test YOUR world and not HER world. What great friends and parents you both are. And your son will have a paycheck each month, too.
I have some doctors in my family who can, for a small fee, medicate your daughter forever. At your son's behest they will sign a form that can keep your daughter on lock down pretty much indefinitely.
Hmm, you could just send her where adults go to school now or even emancipate her and give her the chance to see she is not so big, or something creatively supportive to her and avoid further trouble and wasting your money on bills you don't truly want. Or you could just fuck off some more and keep asking questions against what you know in your private heart to be kind and right. Before you jump to defend your poor position, go and think about these things on your own private time (find some private time)(don't think so much about the ad hominem abusive fallacy statements I made about your sorry ass life), insensitive small minded motherfucker that you are.
Most of all find yourself in finding some time to yourself that you don't share with others especially your daughter because it allows you the excuse to lay blame on her that she is ruining YOUR life. Her life is unfolding and so is yours so quit trying to end it so quickly and trying to make your poor excuse for a life into something it is not which is not so great. Quit playing GOD. Also, when you take ONE turn to spend attentive time with your child, then you can take ONE other turn to develop your own life (while remaining in the home and ignoring your children's constant need for attention) for just you, you will see that it makes you less of a scared little bitch and more of a legible adult. Your whole family included. Fucker.
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What do I know about putting someone in a place like straight? why send your child away? is there a relative that she can stay with, or a friend that she likes? usually kids act out because there is something wrong in the family, like you and your wife or like herself and her life.. etc. why throw a 14 year old in a place where she can't go to school or see you guys or her friends, it would be better for her to go to jail. what's wrong with her? did she tell you guys? maybe she's through with being a young child that listens to everything her parents say or want. maybe she doesn't really like soccer anymore or maybe she sees kids drinking and it makes sense. maybe she's depressed. in europe kids drink. everything that seems adult and feels adult will be revealed in some manner. does she talk about college or going away to school? does she have gifts like music or art? she may feel that her prescription drugs are drugging her, there are many kinds of medication. also her chemicals are all changing and moods and reactions change. maybe let her sleep or let her stay up late. if she's doing the wrong things, let her be creative and show her how to be creative. constructively, or destructively if it means certain art like ripping up pictures and pasting them or the wall or coloring her hair bright green. think about it and don't be a fuck ass.
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Basically, Kezzy-dude, you're a control freak.
Learn not to be a control freak and your kid will probably turn out okay.
Keep being a control freak and, if she survives, she'll spend a whole lot of her adult life and money in therapy fixing the way you screwed her head up, and one day she will cut you the hell out of her life.
Get your control issues fixed, or lose her. Because no matter what you do, in four years she no longer has to put up with your crap. And then it will be too late for you and her. You'll never get her trust back. If you think having a teenage daughter is tough, wait till your son is a teen.
And if you don't fix your control issues, you'll lose him, too, and then your wife--because she's already got your number and spousal love is NOT unconditional--if she has to watch you screw up you guys relationship with your kids she's gone. And you'll die a bitter and lonely old man.
When you're in a hole, dude, the first thing is to stop digging.
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Wow. now that is good advice.
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Go the route of wilderness program not military school. Checkout SUWS (Utah), Aspen (Utah), Ascent(Idaho), Catherine Freer(Oregon). While she is enrolled set boundaries and rules and hire an educational consultant to find a boarding school if necessary (no cedu boarding schools).
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"Sometimes when we get to talking, he's seeing her behavior as worse than it is because there's something developmental he's missing from not being around her all day. Sometimes, when we get to talking, he's seeing her wrap me around her finger and I didn't see it---because I'm around all day and he's got that perspective of a little distance. Sometimes it's a little bit of both."
"Get on the same team. Improvements in your daughter's behavior will follow."
I'm new to this forum and actually came here for advice, but first let me share a few things here because I think I'm a little ahead.
Kezzy, your post here is a cry for help. You may not find it here (all these opinions are very diverse and confusing), but simply by posting here, you are acknowledging that you do need support. That's a big thing to admit and your daughter is lucky to have such a caring Dad. Now, where to find the "right" support?
I know nothing about wilderness/ therapeutic schools but what I do know is that if you go through a few therapists (it took us 3), eventually you will find one who can help you as a family to sort things out. That has to be the first port of call. A good therapist (and by that I mean a qualified Child Psychologist, not a Social Worker who is barely out of her teens herself), can help you as a family agree ground rules that work for all of you. Our therapist first explored our particular parenting style. Some parents are strict she said, some are lenient. She told us that I was lenient (Mom) and he was strict (Stepdad), but that between us we were fairly middle ground. She also told us this in front of our teen, so we all were then able to sit down and discuss what we each thought the ground rulkes ought to be. Surprisingly, our teen cooperated with this exercise and before we knew it, we had a set of rules that started with NO PHYSICAL CONTACT - ie. once it gets to the retsraining stage, your in trouble. The solution is called "TIME OUT". Each has their own space. Sound familiar?
That sorted out the phyisical stuff and to get that perspective was very useful. It gave us ground rules as parents on which to build.
MOST IMPORTANT, we developed ground rules to which our TROUBLED TEEN AGREED and she even suggested a few! WOW!
Here's Rule 1: No punishment lasts for more than 24 hours. Some punishments only laST 10 MINUTES. If the bad behavior is repeated, so is the punishment, so in the theory, your teen can lose her privileges (TV/phone/compueter/rides home etc.) on an indefinite basis, but at the same time, she has the opportunity to win things back easily within a day.
The problem with giving out punishments that last a week, is that by the time that week is over, several more things will have happened, so the teen never gets a chance of winning her privileges back and the incentive to behave well is not there, hence there is no improvement. That's just Rule 1, but it's still working for us 2 years later.
Remember, family therapy is not an overnight fix, and whoever you select to help you, make sure they see your teen alone, as well as together as a family. If your wife will not go, go without her. There are various tests they can run on the teen to assess where the problems lie.
Whatever you decide, don't do nothing. There is a reason why your teen is acting out and you probably already know what that is, so don't brush it off or ignore it.
Deal with it.
Good luck!