Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Maximilian on September 09, 2010, 03:53:04 PM
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This thread is going to be dedicated to providing some insight into what parents of troubled teens go through. Now I have never been the parent of a troubled teen myself, but I was a troubled teen and I know how this impacted the relationship with my family and parents. I was extremely self-centered and didn't care at all how my negative self destructive behaviors were impacting my family. I gave no consideration to other people besides myself, I did what I wanted, when I wanted, how I wanted. This resulted in my parents having to deal with the consequences when the police would come knocking asking about me, or when I'd get kicked out of school, or they were forced to come have meetings with social workers and other people who were attempting to deal with me and my behaviors.
I gave no thought to how much crap I put my family through, and I do regret this now quite a bit. I gave my family no other options than finally sending me to a restrictive lock down program, and we didn't have a lot of money. That means that my family had to sell many things they owned to pay for it, and their investments and college funds for my siblings. I took all that away from my family, I mine as well have burned our house down and the bank account too, because that was the end result of my actions. But during this, they never complained or made me feel guilty. They were more than willing to sacrifice their own material possessions and hard work to save my life. I took, and took, and took some more. They gave me my life back in return.
I feel a lot of guilt when thinking about how I helped ruin my own family. I used to think it was my family that caused me problems, and that was an excuse to use drugs and hurt myself. But the truth was I contributed a lot of the problems our family had to deal with. All the problems going on I felt like I was a victim of, were in fact a creation of my own. It's a sick thought to realize you are the cause of all your problems, and it's easier to blame those around you and the outside world.
I will never be able to repay my family for what I owe them. They sacrificed their own financial well being in order to save my life, and even then for a while I didn't respect what they had done. Can you imagine working so hard, and spending so much hard earned money to save your child who keeps insisting on killing themselves? Sure, I could take the group think position here, and fit in with the regulars, if I would blame everything on the program. But the truth is, none of this was the program's fault, all the negative things that happened were my choices. I am accountable now for everything I did and however long it takes I hope to pay my family back for the cost of sending me to treatment. I feel it's my responsibility to pay back my family financially, and hopefully also emotionally if I can, for all that I took from them back when I was a self centered, troubled teen.
This thread is going to be a place where parents can post their side of the story, as well as people who went to programs but want to talk about how their actions impacted their family.
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Posting in a troll thread.
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You've got to be kidding.
:spam: :spam: :spam: :spam: :spam: :spam: :spam: :spam: :spam:
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This thread is going to be dedicated to providing some insight into what parents of troubled teens go through. Now I have never been the parent of a troubled teen myself, but I was a troubled teen and I know how this impacted the relationship with my family and parents. I was extremely self-centered and didn't care at all how my negative self destructive behaviors were impacting my family. I gave no consideration to other people besides myself, I did what I wanted, when I wanted, how I wanted. This resulted in my parents having to deal with the consequences when the police would come knocking asking about me, or when I'd get kicked out of school, or they were forced to come have meetings with social workers and other people who were attempting to deal with me and my behaviors.
I gave no thought to how much crap I put my family through, and I do regret this now quite a bit. I gave my family no other options than finally sending me to a restrictive lock down program, and we didn't have a lot of money. That means that my family had to sell many things they owned to pay for it, and their investments and college funds for my siblings. I took all that away from my family, I mine as well have burned our house down and the bank account too, because that was the end result of my actions. But during this, they never complained or made me feel guilty. They were more than willing to sacrifice their own material possessions and hard work to save my life. I took, and took, and took some more. They gave me my life back in return.
I feel a lot of guilt when thinking about how I helped ruin my own family. I used to think it was my family that caused me problems, and that was an excuse to use drugs and hurt myself. But the truth was I contributed a lot of the problems our family had to deal with. All the problems going on I felt like I was a victim of, were in fact a creation of my own. It's a sick thought to realize you are the cause of all your problems, and it's easier to blame those around you and the outside world.
I will never be able to repay my family for what I owe them. They sacrificed their own financial well being in order to save my life, and even then for a while I didn't respect what they had done. Can you imagine working so hard, and spending so much hard earned money to save your child who keeps insisting on killing themselves? Sure, I could take the group think position here, and fit in with the regulars, if I would blame everything on the program. But the truth is, none of this was the program's fault, all the negative things that happened were my choices. I am accountable now for everything I did and however long it takes I hope to pay my family back for the cost of sending me to treatment. I feel it's my responsibility to pay back my family financially, and hopefully also emotionally if I can, for all that I took from them back when I was a self centered, troubled teen.
This thread is going to be a place where parents can post their side of the story, as well as people who went to programs but want to talk about how their actions impacted their family.
That speech was like some BS that we had to confess at Open Meetings at Straight inc. I mean word for word! Really really sick stuff.
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Parents,
if your child is suicidal, take them to a reputable psychiatric hospital. If they are breaking the law, call the police. DO NOT hire a group of businessmen you know nothing about to "change his behavior" behind closed doors. DO NOT waste your other children's college funds on these unethical charlatans. Kids who come out of these programs are a walking time bomb of psychological issues and often take decades to recover, if they do so at all.
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My parents had me hospitalized many times for being suicidal. But eventually the insurance runs out. They will hold you for a week usually, sometimes a couple weeks. After that, the responsibility of taken care of a self destructive minor is put in/7 the hands of the parents. Can 2 parents watch a troubled teen 24/7 to ensure they don't harm themselves? I lived in a one parent household, so no this was not a possibility. The psychiatrist at the hospital agreed I should be transfered to a private program, and they watched me 24/7 and put me on suicide watch for several weeks until I proved to them I could be trusted. Of course, I broke this trust again and again, and it took a lot of effort on the part of the program to save my life, against my own wishes. Not all parents go straight to the option of restrictive long term program, like my family, they had tried everything else and knew that 24/7 supervision was required in my case to save my life. It would be great if psychiatric hospitalizations could last longer than a week or so, but right now they are there to stabilize a patient and then transfer them elsewhere, or send them home. It's not a long term option.
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:poison:
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My parents had me hospitalized many times for being suicidal. But eventually the insurance runs out. They will hold you for a week usually, sometimes a couple weeks. After that, the responsibility of taken care of a self destructive minor is put in/7 the hands of the parents. Can 2 parents watch a troubled teen 24/7 to ensure they don't harm themselves? I lived in a one parent household, so no this was not a possibility. The psychiatrist at the hospital agreed I should be transfered to a private program, and they watched me 24/7 and put me on suicide watch for several weeks until I proved to them I could be trusted. Of course, I broke this trust again and again, and it took a lot of effort on the part of the program to save my life, against my own wishes. Not all parents go straight to the option of restrictive long term program, like my family, they had tried everything else and knew that 24/7 supervision was required in my case to save my life. It would be great if psychiatric hospitalizations could last longer than a week or so, but right now they are there to stabilize a patient and then transfer them elsewhere, or send them home. It's not a long term option.
I would agree that your actions show a deeply deeply disturbed individual. This goes a long way towards explaining your behavior here.
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I will respond to respectful posts, as I have shown. But I am going to ignore the insults and judgmental criticisms of my life directed at me. So if you are wondering why I'm not responding to you, try being a little more respectful next time. Thanks.
Like always, people are free to ignore my threads and start their own.
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I will respond to respectful posts, as I have shown. But I am going to ignore the insults and judgmental criticisms of my life directed at me. So if you are wondering why I'm not responding to you, try being a little more respectful next time. Thanks.
Like always, people are free to ignore my threads and start their own.
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Good God Max,
What were you going through that caused you to be hospitalized several times for being suicidal? Your parents have a responsibility to you to do their best to provide a comfortable, safe place for you to learn and grow into a healthy adult. Many parents have trouble with this, including mine, but hiring someone else to do it is just dumb, nobody will care for your child if you don't.
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Well, having been placed in an abusive program as a teen due to an overly strict parent (I've told my story many times here...I was a normal teen occasionally "acting out" as normal teens do as a part of growing up. Funny how all the kids I was hanging out with that were doing much "worse" things than I was ended up growing up just fine and I, the 'lightweight' of the group, ended up with diagnosed PTSD from the "treatment" I received at Straight) and as the parent of a truly troubled child, I can tell you that what is done in the name of therapy at these places that use LGAT/peer pressure/isolation/attack therapy IS abusive in it's very nature. I understand what it's like to fear for the life of your child. I also understand that the LAST thing that someone like that needs is to be locked away and subjected to LGAT-type "therapies". I would never subject my child to that because I know from experience how damaging it is and how lasting that damage can be. Adolescence is a scary time for both the teen and the parent, clearly and some kids do need help. These programs do not provide help...they provide control, thought-reform and churn out obedient little drones with Stockholm Syndrome (I had it myself for a time) who all swear that the program "saved their lives" (deadinsaneorinjail seems to be the mantra of most programs). I wonder how those kids I was hanging with before Straight that were all doing much "worse" things than I was managed to survive their teen years without benefit of a re-education camp and ended up normal, well adjusted adults while I suffered for years with the effects of what was done to me in the name of "help"?
The end does not justify the means.
Now, how many here can say that they were both in a program AND have been the parent of a "troubled" teenager? I think that gives me a rather unique perspective. I'm so sick of hearing "until you've had a teen in danger.....blah blah blah". I have had a teen in danger, severe danger and somehow we managed to get her thru without shipping her off to strangers to have her psyche scrambled, thank FSM!
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This thread is going to be dedicated to providing some insight into what parents of troubled teens go through. Now I have never been the parent of a troubled teen myself,.
Then you really have no business speaking for parents at all, do you?
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This thread is going to be dedicated to providing some insight into what parents of troubled teens go through. Now I have never been the parent of a troubled teen myself,.
Then you really have no business speaking for parents at all, do you?
You're right, that's exactly why I started this thread. Although I hope parents will come and share their side of the story, I'm not sure they will, this forum has a reputation for being rather hostile to the opinions of programs parents. But to those parents who are reading and understanding what I am saying, I want to say thank you. Not everybody who is sent to a program ends up bitter and angry about it for their whole lives. I was a little angry at first, but realized as I matured over a few years, and talking with my parents, that I needed to take accountability and give up the self centered victim mentality.
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Good God Max,
What were you going through that caused you to be hospitalized several times for being suicidal? Your parents have a responsibility to you to do their best to provide a comfortable, safe place for you to learn and grow into a healthy adult. Many parents have trouble with this, including mine, but hiring someone else to do it is just dumb, nobody will care for your child if you don't.
Drug addiction coupled with mental illness, and self harm. Hiring somebody else in my case wasn't dumb, it was absolutely necessary. I have a couple siblings and was living with a single parent, who ran their own business which was going under at the same time this parent had to deal with all my issues. I could never honestly claim that my parents did not try their best. I don't think it's dumb to admit you need help with your troubled teen, but that's my opinion. My parents couldn't of watched me 24/7 like a program did.
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This thread is going to be dedicated to providing some insight into what parents of troubled teens go through. Now I have never been the parent of a troubled teen myself,.
Then you really have no business speaking for parents at all, do you?
You're right, that's exactly why I started this thread. Although I hope parents will come and share their side of the story, I'm not sure they will, this forum has a reputation for being rather hostile to the opinions of programs parents. But to those parents who are reading and understanding what I am saying, I want to say thank you. Not everybody who is sent to a program ends up bitter and angry about it for their whole lives. I was a little angry at first, but realized as I matured over a few years, and talking with my parents, that I needed to take accountability and give up the self centered victim mentality.
Yet you went on for quite a while about you perceived parents to go thru. Gotcha. Get back to me when you've actually been a parent at all, let alone one of someone with real troubles.
Again, it's a wonder, if I was in such desperate need of "help", that my friends before Straight ever got thru life without benefit of a program. It's a wonder my own child got thru her troubles without the brainwashing of a program. Parents of any teen, let alone one who is struggling, are a vulnerable sort and ripe for the picking of these thought-reform places. Unfortunately, in their desire to help, the often allow these places to do much more damage.....sometimes damage that can't be undone.
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Good God Max,
What were you going through that caused you to be hospitalized several times for being suicidal? Your parents have a responsibility to you to do their best to provide a comfortable, safe place for you to learn and grow into a healthy adult. Many parents have trouble with this, including mine, but hiring someone else to do it is just dumb, nobody will care for your child if you don't.
Drug addiction coupled with mental illness, and self harm. Hiring somebody else in my case wasn't dumb, it was absolutely necessary. I have a couple siblings and was living with a single parent, who ran their own business which was going under at the same time this parent had to deal with all my issues. I could never honestly claim that my parents did not try their best. I don't think it's dumb to admit you need help with your troubled teen, but that's my opinion. My parents couldn't of watched me 24/7 like a program did.
Help is not what these places provide. Thought-reform and control is what they provide. If the program you went to truly wasn't abusive and really did save your life, why are you so reluctant to name it? What are you afraid of? Is it one that has already been shut down for abuse?
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This thread is going to be dedicated to providing some insight into what parents of troubled teens go through. Now I have never been the parent of a troubled teen myself,.
Then you really have no business speaking for parents at all, do you?
You're right, that's exactly why I started this thread. Although I hope parents will come and share their side of the story, I'm not sure they will, this forum has a reputation for being rather hostile to the opinions of programs parents. But to those parents who are reading and understanding what I am saying, I want to say thank you. Not everybody who is sent to a program ends up bitter and angry about it for their whole lives. I was a little angry at first, but realized as I matured over a few years, and talking with my parents, that I needed to take accountability and give up the self centered victim mentality.
Yet you went on for quite a while about you perceived parents to go thru. Gotcha. Get back to me when you've actually been a parent at all, let alone one of someone with real troubles.
I talked about my own family experiences. Now I am not credible enough to even comment on my own family? I wasn't in a program decades ago like some here, I'm in my 20's I don't have kids yet. You can comment on your family in this thread if you want, or you can keep telling me why my opinions are invalid, that choice is yours.
Again, it's a wonder, if I was in such desperate need of "help", that my friends before Straight ever got thru life without benefit of a program. It's a wonder my own child got thru her troubles without the brainwashing of a program. Parents of any teen, let alone one who is struggling, are a vulnerable sort and ripe for the picking of these thought-reform places. Unfortunately, in their desire to help, the often allow these places to do much more damage.....sometimes damage that can't be undone.
I was a particularly troubled teen with a lot of issues. Most teens make it through adolescence without any sort of program or intervention, those who require it like myself are in the extreme minority. But I feel the option for parents to seek out what they feel is appropriate is a good thing. Do some parents pull the trigger early on programs? Probably, I questioned why some kids were in the program when I was there. My family did not, it was the last option and they tried everything else. I would always suggest that parents try less intense things first than going straight to a long term strict program. I was transfered to a program from a psychiatric hospital, where I had been for several months on and off. It wasn't just my parents that thought I needed a long term program, it was the psychiatrist and social worker too. The program saved my life, by removing me from home and phsyically keeping me from harming myself. I don't claim programs save everybody's life, never have, never will. But it did save mine, and without that option of private program my parents would have had no choice but to let me remain at home, or calling the cops on my many illegal behaviors and have me put in juvenille hall. They tried local RTC, I ran away and they just let you go, because they aren't like programs, which will chase you and bring you back. Juvie or private program? I'm glad they picked the private program.
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Good God Max,
What were you going through that caused you to be hospitalized several times for being suicidal? Your parents have a responsibility to you to do their best to provide a comfortable, safe place for you to learn and grow into a healthy adult. Many parents have trouble with this, including mine, but hiring someone else to do it is just dumb, nobody will care for your child if you don't.
Drug addiction coupled with mental illness, and self harm. Hiring somebody else in my case wasn't dumb, it was absolutely necessary. I have a couple siblings and was living with a single parent, who ran their own business which was going under at the same time this parent had to deal with all my issues. I could never honestly claim that my parents did not try their best. I don't think it's dumb to admit you need help with your troubled teen, but that's my opinion. My parents couldn't of watched me 24/7 like a program did.
Help is not what these places provide. Thought-reform and control is what they provide. If the program you went to truly wasn't abusive and really did save your life, why are you so reluctant to name it? What are you afraid of? Is it one that has already been shut down for abuse?
No it was not shut down for abuse. I choose not to name it because that's my choice. Should I cede to the group pressuring to release more information about myself than I am comfortable with? How very ironic.
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If Max/SUCK IT actually attended a program (doubtful) then I can guess the only rational reason to hide its name would be if he was an abusive staff member. Did you abuse kids when you were (supposedly) in treatment Max-it? Are you afraid there could be angry parents and kids out there looking to confront you for the abuse they suffered?
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Ha,ha. No I was never a staff member. I actually didn't do that well in the program hierarchy, to be honest. I was too busy trying to destroy myself to get involved in the politics. It was the simple act of physically removing me from my destructive home life, and keeping me away from drugs and sharp things (pathetic right?) that kept me alive. I was on suicide watch, minus shoelaces, for almost the entire time. I was a barely coherent, mentally ill, highly medicated, drug addict when I arrived, and it took me many months to recover to even a semblance of my former self, I was pretty messed up.
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Ha,ha. No I was never a staff member.
That "ha,ha" looks so familiar.
I was a barely coherent, mentally ill, highly medicated, drug addict when I arrived, and it took me many months to recover to even a semblance of my former self,
Then what the hell were you doing at a WWASPs program? Wow.....no wonder you're so fucked up.
I was pretty messed up.
Was??
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That "ha,ha" looks so familiar.
Whooter does it more like Ha,Ha,Ha...
But if you want to believe I'm Whooter, that's your right. Who am I to stand in the way of someone and their delusions?
I was a barely coherent, mentally ill, highly medicated, drug addict when I arrived, and it took me many months to recover to even a semblance of my former self,
Then what the hell were you doing at a WWASPs program? Wow.....no wonder you're so fucked up.
I was getting my life saved, that's what.
I was pretty messed up.
Was??
You don't know anything about me, other than my opinions on treatment. If we met in real life, if anybody here met me they'd get along with me. But since I hold some pro treatment views I'm the devil on fornits. Whatever, I'll live.
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But since I hold some pro treatment views I'm the devil on fornits. Whatever, I'll live.
No, since you hold the view that anything connected with WWASPs could be good is what makes us think you're a victim of Stockholm Syndrom....just as I was for a while regarding Straight.
I'm not against treatment.....I'm against falsely presented treatment. I'm against abusive LGAT methods that damage a person's psyche, sometimes beyond repair. I'm pro real treatment for those that actually need it, not kids who are just doing the normal rebelling that most teens do and that is a normal part of breaking away from parents and becoming their own persons. No one gets out of adolescence unscathed. It's a scary time for both the kids and the parents and I know because I've been both. Until you can say that you've parented anyone, let alone a 'troubled' teen, you have no business advising parents on what to do.
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But since I hold some pro treatment views I'm the devil on fornits. Whatever, I'll live.
No, since you hold the view that anything connected with WWASPs could be good is what makes us think you're a victim of Stockholm Syndrom....just as I was for a while regarding Straight.
I'm not a victim of Stockholm Syndrome, I don't have time to get into details at the moment, but to attempt to put this label on me is just another way to discredit the experiences I share about myself and my own opinions. I was never brainwashed and wasn't happy about being in the program at the time. I wasn't ready to admit it saved my life for a few years, until then I was more comfortable remaining under the psychological security blanket of victimhood. Enough time has passed that I'm willing to be honest, even if it means taking a critical look at myself and my own behaviors. I created another thread in which we can discuss the "real" treatment options and what you view as ethical vs unethical treatment. I hope this thread can remain somewhat on topic, in that people can talk about their family and how their behavior impacted them. I would really like to hear from program parents if they want to share, and their perspective whether they are pro program or against them. I think that is an opinion that is lacking on fornits sometimes.
I will feel better about myself when I can repay every penny my parent had to spend on the program, because it was my fault and I want to be accountable and feel guilty about forcing them to spend this money on me. I will pay it back eventually, even if it takes a while.If my family knew I was saving to repay them, they'd refuse it. So one day I am going to present them a check and refuse to take it back, I will feel a lot better about myself that day comes, and I look forward to it.
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That is extremely disturbing max-it. You sound like someone who just got back from a Peoples Temple meeting. Total slavish devotion to the cult I mean "treatment center" that "gave you your life back". Just when i think you cant be more disturbed you prove me wrong. Wow!
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That is extremely disturbing max-it. You sound like someone who just got back from a Peoples Temple meeting. Total slavish devotion to the cult I mean "treatment center" that "gave you your life back". Just when i think you cant be more disturbed you prove me wrong. Wow!
Ha,Ha,Ha when all else fails bring out the old Stockholm Syndrome. Its a fornits classic and goes way back. You gotta love this place.
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That is extremely disturbing max-it. You sound like someone who just got back from a Peoples Temple meeting. Total slavish devotion to the cult I mean "treatment center" that "gave you your life back". Just when i think you cant be more disturbed you prove me wrong. Wow!
Ha,Ha,Ha when all else fails bring out the old Stockholm Syndrome. Its a fornits classic and goes way back. You gotta love this place.
What....you really think it doesn't exist or doesn't apply to the TTI? It sure explains my allegiance for a time to a program that abused me. And, as you're so fond of saying, I think we can all agree that Straight was indeed abusive.
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That is extremely disturbing max-it. You sound like someone who just got back from a Peoples Temple meeting. Total slavish devotion to the cult I mean "treatment center" that "gave you your life back". Just when i think you cant be more disturbed you prove me wrong. Wow!
Ha,Ha,Ha when all else fails bring out the old Stockholm Syndrome. Its a fornits classic and goes way back. You gotta love this place.
What....you really think it doesn't exist or doesn't apply to the TTI? It sure explains my allegiance for a time to a program that abused me. And, as you're so fond of saying, I think we can all agree that Straight was indeed abusive.
Sorry, Anne, of course it exists. So does ODD, ADHD, but not everyone buys into it. Plus it is way overused here on fornits to justify ignoring people who have a positive experience.
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Well, I admit it. I did have something like Stockholm at CEDU. I could not fathom what was happening there. I HAD to believe -even though I thought it was the Twilight Zone of Surreality - that there was some higher purpose. I justified and rationalized and qualified clearly abusive practices. Much like the abused houswife who says, "he didn't really mean it" or "he has so much good in him." It took me years to be honest with myself.
After over a decade of nightmares and education, I realized that not one therapeutic practice was based on sound foundation. The financial and academic practices were fraudulent, the staff were not only inculcated, but came in fucked up themselves, and there were ZERO interpersonal boundaries (which is essential to wellbeing). And how do you justify living in such an insular environment that demonizes the outside world while also promoting an atmosphere of emotional onslaught? Even the whole dead insane or in jail spiel. Even though I was merely a recreational drug user, and stopped of my own volition (easily) pre-CEDU, I seriously brought into the whole druggie myth.
Blah blah blah it has all been said before. But my point is, I was emotionally invested in legitimizing CEDU for a looong time, even though I knew it was shit inside. The CEDU mythology was not something I gave up readily. Because part of the whole Program is building the Mythology and creating experiences that were so intense you thought you reached some enlightened pinnacle born of pain. You were sad for all the mere non-CEDU mortals who led ordinary lives. Man, we really brought the bullshit.
Ok. sorry back to the parent's side of the story. Mine were desperate. They forgot to parent for 15 or 16 years and then said, holy shit, this job is too big for us (They would agree with this characterization). The brochures looked good. And the Ed Con sold them on it. I do not blame my parents for hoping to help me. I don't even blame them that much for shitty parenting. They did the best they could with limited emotional resources.
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Thanks for your thoughtful, well written post Samara, I enjoyed reading it and learning about your perspective on programs.
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Wow. You disarmed me. Man, I'm easy.
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I remember a story where a parent got so guilty about having their child abused in a program that they blew their head off.
:suicide:
No loss really, good riddance.
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wow, harsh.
But as a former staff member, you interacted with a lot of parents. I am curious about what you thought of most of them. A fair and balanced perspective.
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I do hope parents will take the time to post their perspective in this thread. Hopefully now that this forum is moderated they might feel comfortable enough to share their experiences in dealing with their own "troubled" teenager.
When I was living with my family as a teen I really had no concept of love, or that we were supposed to love each other, and that my parents cared about me. So when they'd get calls from the ER saying I od'd again, or cops coming all the time to the house to question/arrest me, and all the other bullshit. I can't even begin to explain all the crap I put my family through, it really is quite unbelievable looking back. Yet, at the age, I thought everything was fine. To my warped world view back then, I was in control and things were taking place as I wanted them to. But the truth was I was losing control of my own life and acting out in ways that hurt everybody around me, not to mention myself.
Now I can empathize with my parents, and I know they really did care about me, and putting myself in their shoes and imaging someone you love destroying themselves in front of you like I did to them, makes me extremely heartsick. I regret putting my family through that more than anything else in my life, I was extremely selfish and like a black hole my energy was devouring everything around me. So they isolated me away from the family in the program, and this was the best thing to do at the time. I realize this now, and even though it wasn't fun, I appreciate their position and respect their decision. I had proven I wasn't in control of my own life, and since I wasn't able to handle making decisions for myself, they had to be made for me.
So they told me when to eat, when to wake up, when to go to sleep, when to go to school, when to go to the bathroom, when to go to the therapist office, when I could have free time, when to clean, and everything else. I had lost the ability to make rational and healthy choices for myself, and had to be taught again like a child. The thing is I stayed angry at my parents for putting me through what I considered to be a waste of my time, but when I got out I asked them what was the point? They said, it saved your life , and that's the most important thing. I dismissed this is a program slogan, but they kept saying that whenever I brought it up. Eventually I realized what they meant, and you know what, they were right.
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wow, harsh.
But as a former staff member, you interacted with a lot of parents. I am curious about what you thought of most of them. A fair and balanced perspective.
Most of them directly contributed to their child's problems. A good half of them cared, 1/4th of them were just plain idiots and simpletons, and the other 1/4th were serial abusers in their own right.
However, all of them for the most part contributed to their children having the problems they had.
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I don't know, M. I am still a little leery of the "saved my life" credo. I know too many people who credit a program with saving their lives in spite of the hot messes they continue to be with relapses, prostitution, etc. I'm not attacking you, I just have a hard time buying into that thought pattern in general.
My brother was a heroin addict on the streets off and on for 17 years. My Dad tried everything and finally let him be. He's been clean for 21 years now. (He is a lot older... about 20 years older than me or so.) He just decided he was done. But he also lives a very fear driven life where he won't step out of a very narrowly confined box afraid he will relapse. Still, lives in fear over it. It actually is very constraining for his wife.
I wonder how much responsibility my Dad would take? I know he is directly responsible for all of the low self esteem in our family, but there were also compounding factors. Our family has a lot of depression and anxiety as well as alcoholism. My Dad sucked as a dad, but is a good guy outside of parenthood. Parenthood was just too mundane for him, not exciting enough. We always felt like we were in the way of his life and he had an explosive temper, due not to mania per se but excessive energy. We could never act good enough, fast enough. We could never live up to his perfectionism. My Dad is the type of guy who could not understand being an addict or sustaining any problem. He makes a decision and its done. The day he decided to stop drinking vodka, done. Same with cigarettes. Without a program or help. My brothers had especially low self esteem because on one hand, they could not live up to him and never would, and on another, he wasn't a parent to guide or nurture you. He had too many things to do.
My brother was big hearted. A kind person. But had hyperthyroid and I believe he started drugs as self medication to keep calm. He could not contain the energy in his body. He would explode. the hyperthyroidism was discovered very late. Out of seven of us, only two of my brothers have wrangled with addiction issues. Both of them extremely prone to over the top shake your leg can't relax anxiety. I would hate to see either one in my program. One would badger the holy shit out of people, and the other would never recover his self worth. I don't know this factors into the topic, I got derailed. :)
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Thanks for taking the time to share about your family, I appreciate your posts a lot. I understand that the "saved my life" slogan seems cliche. I'll be honest and admit I had plenty of problems after the program, the same ones I dealt with before the program for the most part, for many years actually. When I say a program saved my life, I'm not saying the ideology or "brainwashing" is what helped me. I was so far gone, I barely could grasp what they were talking about.
For me it was the simple act of physically removing me from home that did it. I've said I would have rather spent that time say, in a wilderness program, than a locked down program. But I can't really complain I feel, since it was my fault alone I ended up there. It was the end of the line, I consider it like a triage facility to keep me alive until I finally made the choice that I wanted to help myself, or at the very least stop actively trying to myself. So when I say it saved my life I don't mean that metaphorically, or even that they gave me the tools to succeed, or anything like that. I mean quite simply they removed me from a self destructive lifestyle and kept an eye on me 24/7. Like a babysitter, but for a teenager, and one that doesn't take any crap or let anything slide.
I'm really happy to hear you brother recovered. I don't think there is a fully effective solution to offer addicts that will be a sure fix, I think that people have to choose to stop eventually, in conjunction then other people can help at that point. As a teen, you can force a kid into a program until they turn 18 and that might keep them alive until then, but after that who knos what is going to happen. I was also diagnosed with hyperthyroidism while in the psychiatric hospitals, and when I saw I refused to stop taking medication in the manipulation thread, that is one of the medications I was talking about. I was also on Xanax, and a few others that you can't just stop all at once. So I used that at the program once to protest and see if I would get to leave, since I knew that refusing all my meds would cause me medical problems I'd thought they would have no choice but to transfer me to a hospital, and then I could find a way out from there. But it didn't work, they successfully manipulated me. I was up against people who really knew how to avoid manipulations from kids, and then do it right back even better. Thanks for your posts again, I like learning about other people's experiences and their familes.
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My parents are education professors. My mom was in early childhood education and my dad was in secondary education. I only mention that because it shows that no matter how educated parents are, they can still be baffled by teenagers and their problems.
For reasons I'll leave out of the Fornits discussion, I was suicidally depressed starting at age 13. I attempted suicide several times. My counselor tried to get me to "contract for safety." When I "broke the contract," she recommended that my parents (who were in the middle of a divorce) sign over custody of me to the authorities so that I could be placed in a state institution.
My guardian ad litem found Three Springs as an alternative to the state hospital.
When I arrived at Three Springs, I was thankful to be there. Except I learned that instead of escaping spending the rest of my life in a state institution, I could be spending the rest of my adolescence in a locked facility. I'll stop going down that road, though, and keep myself focused on my parents' perspective.
I wasn't allowed any contact with my parents.
Eventually, I had letter contact with my dad, and visits from my mom and sister.
Whenever I had a day pass and it was coming to an end, my mother and sister and I would cry and cry. My mom knew about the abuse - as soon as I was let on a day pass, I was able to be honest about what was going on, and I did. Because she was no longer my guardian, she had no authority to get me released from Three Springs. My dad wrote letters in which he fantasized about "springing me."
I went on another day pass when I was covered in bruises from the only time I was beaten there. My mom took me to the doctor to have the bruises photographed and documented.
I'm condensing a long story here. I wrote a report about the abuse I witnessed (in marker, no less, because we weren't allowed to use pens, and then we lost pencil privileges too) and I gave it to my mom to get to my judge while I was on a day pass.
After my judge got the report, I was moved to a group home on the same Three Springs campus. Then a few months later I was placed in foster care. (From staff members I remained friends with on the outside, I later found out that many of the people who had committed abusive acts were terminated as a result of the investigation. Another longer story for another day, or PM, maybe.)
My parents recognize that they made some wrong decisions that led to my time at Three Springs, and I recognize that they made the best decision given the information they had. They didn't know they were shipping me off to a place where kids were physically and sexually abused. They didn't know that they would be powerless to get me out.
Since Three Springs, my mom has used alcohol and drugs to the extent that she is barely functional. My sister doesn't bother having contact with her - it's too painful to acknowledge that we don't have a mother. But I keep in contact with her because even though she's obliterated her short term memory, she's still the woman who did everything in her power to help me. My dad just finished paying his part of the bill for Three Springs last year, eleven years after my release.
When I was a teenager, I needed help. What I got instead was abuse to myself and an emotionally and financially battered family.
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Wow, that was an impressive post. If I was a parent and read that I definitely would think twice about sending my kid to the program you attended. I'm sorry for all you went through, thanks for taking the time to share some of your story with us.
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Jesus, it kills me your dad would pay that bill and that a judge would return you to any part of the three springs campus.
Fucking disgusts me.
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Max, this is why program abuse needs to be heard. And, it is very hard to describe how we couldn't speak out against the more insidious abuses and lies of other programs that do not cause physical abuses. But students are isolated from the outside and then parents are turned against their kid in staff reports.
The one thing my parents and I had going for us pre-CEDU was it wasn't a relationship based on lies. CEDU changed that. I became non communicative because I knew if I discussed what would happen, CEDU would say I was manipulating and they would make me pay for it for the duration. My parents were told to lie to me by staff,and staff lied to my parents about me, which unnecessarily complicated family dynamics. This was absolutely not isolated. We also forced to make confessions - many exaggerrated or patently false.
That is why the isolation and lack of transparency bothers me.
In any event, Hedge has bruises and documentation and still could not disentangle himself easily. Not to mention that his parents basically paid (unwittingly) to have him beat.
Like, I said, I can't tell you what happened with your program, but program abuse is widespread and once you put a kid into an isolated situation, you really have no idea what is happening. One of the topics ex-CEDU kids talk about is how we had to pretend to buy in and give program tours and espouse the merits of it when we were shouting, "RUN!!" on the inside. But we would absolutely never even THINK to publically denounce the program.
And if you give up parental rights, you are really screwed. Then you are the program's bitch.
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It just occured to me that Max is the name of Whooter's son. We also know Max Reuben was locked up in a program, HLA to be exact. I wonder if there's a connection there? Anyone elses thoughts?
Far too often parents take minor or even non existent issues and rather than deal with them, they take the lazy route and pay someone else to deal with it for them. Don't have kids if you aren't willing to deal with them. So many of the kids I was locked up with in HLA were there under those exact circumstances. There were no self destructive behaviors, it was just a matter of parents not caring.
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There are so many facets from my point of view. The initial placement, the time she spent there and the transition back home. But my daughter initially went to SUWS so I should share that first.
The initial time that she spent there was heart wrenching for my wife and I. We were well aware that there would be little to no contact for the several weeks she was in wilderness, but the phone calls from here counselor and therapist really helped to ease the anxiety. We spent many an evening pondering the next step for her and wondering if this therapy was even going to work for her. It was a very difficult few weeks to say the least.
At the end of her stay we went down to North Carolina to meet her and to pick her up. We met with the therapists, counselors and other parents to review what had transpired over her several weeks stay. Many of the parents had a chance to share their stories and expectations.
The biggest moment was when it was time to meet her. We headed down a trail and we could see them all coming up the mountain (maybe 9 kids and a few counselors) and she was carrying this huge backpack with all her stuff and she looked so healthy my gosh I couldn’t believe it, all the color in her cheeks again and she had put on a few pounds. After the initial hugs and kisses were over I asked her if the backpack was heavy and she said “Yeah, it is!” and smiled. The counselors said we were all heading to a campsite together and then spending the night. Your child will feed and shelter you. I asked my daughter if I could help carry anything and she said something like “Well since this was mostly your idea why don’t you carry the backpack the rest of the way and see what it is like for me the last few weeks!” and she laughed. So she helped me on with it and we walked a mile or so to this old camp area. She set up a lean-to and started the fire. As she prepared dinner we talked all about her time there, what she did. She told me about her counselors and the therapist that she saw a few times which provided some testing for us. She liked the counselors for the most part except one which she said was always angry (there seems to be always one in the crowd). We slept under the stars in sleeping bags and the next morning we participated in some activities together which were designed to test your trust of each other. There were some demonstrations on starting fires, local lore and the counselors gave their final feedback to the group and parents. A few of us went into town and met up for lunch with our kids and then headed home.
It was an amazing experience from my perspective and the before and after was very apparent.
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Something I often asked when locked up in HLA, and Max maybe you can help me out on this one, is why the unlicensed counselors never have the parents sit on a peer group session. Show exactly what it is their kids are subjected to. Funny how I never got an answer to that question.
Any of you parents get to sit on your kids being berated?
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Something I often asked when locked up in HLA, and Max maybe you can help me out on this one, is why the unlicensed counselors never have the parents sit on a peer group session. Show exactly what it is their kids are subjected to. Funny how I never got an answer to that question.
Any of you parents get to sit on your kids being berated?
Elan had many groups with resident and parent the berating went both ways at times. I remember I was sitting in on one group, there were the parents and there 2 children they had sent to Elan. The children during the course of the group got irritated with one another and started yelling and screaming at one another. There mother was so taken back by this display of anger she asked them to stop, well they did with each other and started in on her. Freaking nuts, everyone in the room at this time was a unlicensed counselor. I would also say without college degrees also.
Robert I think you would be surprised how many parents visited peer groups of the programs here. Now, I would not say they always got an actual portrayal of the actions the groups could display.
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I'm not going to delve into Whooter conspiracy stuff, I don't believe Whooter is this person they claim he is, and I am not "Max" his supposed son, and choosing the name Maximilian has nothing to do at all with that whole drama, if possible let's keep that stuff out of this thread.
As far as parents being present for our group seminars, the parents were there and helped run it, they did most of the work actually. So yes parents were very much present, they also did the group therapy at home on their own time. The parents were very much involved, and many came on visits, or on tours to see the program before leaving their child. They even showed the parents the supposedly abusive isolation room, I know that because I was in it when some parents came by on a tour. Yes it was kind of surreal, but what isn't inside of a program.
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Blind accusations, manipulative tactics, unlicensed counselors with little to no education inciting people to gang up on other members, sounds pretty standard. Just goes to show there's so little differences in all these places.
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Max. Were the parents there for the first seminars? As far as I understand it you both have to go through your own versions of at least Discovery before you have parent-child seminars.
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Blind accusations, manipulative tactics, unlicensed counselors with little to no education inciting people to gang up on other members, sounds pretty standard. Just goes to show there's so little differences in all these places.
In my mind there really isn't. When you have unlicensed, uneducated, improperly trained personell using powerful, unethical, psychological techniques, you're bound to run into problems. I'm not sure if I've heard of a single program that uses actual bona-fide licensed therapists to oversee group therapy or their seminars. The general thinking seems to be that "real world" experience is more important, as if screwing up your life gives you the education and ability of a Ph.D.
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Parents were there, not your parents though, no. Other kids parents, of kids who were further up in the program. Those kids, and parents of them, or kids like them, were the ones who worked the first seminar. I never got to the seminars where your parents come also, I think that happens at the end if you get close to graduating, I never made it that far. There was the facilitator, then the parents were like the second rung, and the staff kids the third rung, that seemed to be the hierarchy during the group seminars.
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I was involved in and witnessed many parts of the kids day from wake up to rap up at the end of the day where they announced kids getting on or off restriction, milestones achieved, plans for the next day etc.. I was involved in group several times when we broke into groups of 3 or 4 kids and their parents to discuss some of the issues. It wasnt the most comfortable for me because I was out of my element. I can see how the group interaction could get really intense but I also knew the counselors and their backgrounds so I was comfortable that they would not be abused or ganged up on severely.
Being involved in these group sessions actually helped me as a parent to understand the process and see some of the success transpiring.
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Parents were there, not your parents though, no. Other kids parents, of kids who were further up in the program. Those kids, and parents of them, or kids like them, were the ones who worked the first seminar. I never got to the seminars where your parents come also, I think that happens at the end if you get close to graduating, I never made it that far. There was the facilitator, then the parents were like the second rung, and the staff kids the third rung, that seemed to be the hierarchy during the group seminars.
If you didn't finish the seminars, or the program, how do you credit it with saving your life? It's my understanding that WWASP considers such kids "half baked" and destined to failure. I'm trying to understand in concrete and definable terms exactly what you learned there, not just the result you credit it with.
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Parents were there, not your parents though, no. Other kids parents, of kids who were further up in the program. Those kids, and parents of them, or kids like them, were the ones who worked the first seminar. I never got to the seminars where your parents come also, I think that happens at the end if you get close to graduating, I never made it that far. There was the facilitator, then the parents were like the second rung, and the staff kids the third rung, that seemed to be the hierarchy during the group seminars.
If you didn't finish the seminars, or the program, how do you credit it with saving your life? It's my understanding that WWASP considers such kids "half baked" and destined to failure. I'm trying to understand in concrete and definable terms exactly what you learned there, not just the result you credit it with.
I learned what taking accountability for your actions is. I learned to better express my anger outwards instead of inward on myself. But when I save my life, I mean that in the way someone earlier described an addict better off being left in jail, since they are such a danger to themselves. The program staff watched me 24/7 and when I tried to harm myself they stopped me. The program did not cure me of addiction, or the personality issues I had going in. The program saved my from myself, for as long as they could keep me there. Since I eventually became an adult, they lost the ability to keep me from harming myself after that, I chose to leave the program, and eventually made a choice to go back to the downward path I was on before I was in the program. But for the time that I was in treatment, and the program, they did save my from myself.
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I learned what taking accountability for your actions is.
Can you describe exactly what that term "accountability" means as it was taught. Are you accountable for everything that happened to in your life, including things that were done to you?
I learned to better express my anger outwards instead of inward on myself.
I would have thought it to be healthier to find the root cause of the anger and process it.
But when I save my life, I mean that in the way someone earlier described an addict better off being left in jail, since they are such a danger to themselves. The program staff watched me 24/7 and when I tried to harm myself they stopped me. The program did not cure me of addiction, or the personality issues I had going in. The program saved my from myself, for as long as they could keep me there.
It seems almost as if you're arguing the program was as effective as jail would have been as rehabilitation.
Since I eventually became an adult, they lost the ability to keep me from harming myself after that, I chose to leave the program, and eventually made a choice to go back to the downward path I was on before I was in the progra
It sounds to me as if the program didn't work at all. You were determined to go down "that path" and while they might have restrained you for a while, it doesn't sound like they instilled any desire to change. Max. Do you really think a person can be forced to quit substances? Do you really think that works in the long run? Seems to me that like most things, once the threat of force is removed there is no incentive to continue. Seems to me the program didn't save your life as much as it merely postponed what you chose and were determined to make inevitable.
But for the time that I was in treatment, and the program, they did save my from myself.
So what you're basically saying is the same thing could be accomplished for a lot cheaper by simply locking your kids in the basement for a few years?
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Can you describe exactly what that term "accountability" means as it was taught. Are you accountable for everything that happened to in your life, including things that were done to you?
That's their definition, but I'm talking about more of a personal realization than what they taught at seminars. It was my fault I ended up in the program, and I don't mean this in the sense that they teach in seminars. Yes they teach a rigid form of accountability and choices, something I don't fully agree with. I think they teach it because it gives you a sense of control and a new way of making choices, and I find similar ideology in a lot of other things. We weren't taught AA, or 12 steps or anything like that in the program. They never mentioned it once, and addiction was for the most part considered a choice. AA philosophy and program ideology are actually quite different, if not contradictory. I tend to side with AA type argument more, based on what I've seen and my own experiences with addiction. I don't believe people choose to destroy their lives, at a certain point what once might have been a choice becomes an unhealthy addiction, which I think is a form of mental disorder like depression. Using drugs to the degree some people do, is as logical as jumping off a bridge when life gets tough. It's not a rational choice people make, something is wrong with them.
But when I say I personally learned accountability, it's not because of what was taught to me. It was shown to me, that if I acted in a certain way, I would be held accountable. There was no way to talk your way out of a punishment, or manipulate your way out of the program this time. I learned that my actions and choices led me to being there, even though I found this point difficult at first, I came to realize over time this was true.
I learned to better express my anger outwards instead of inward on myself.
I would have thought it to be healthier to find the root cause of the anger and process it.
Several weeks after leaving the private program I was in, I ended up back in my home city and did some thing that landed me back in the same psychiatric facility i had been in before I left. One of the nurses there who knew me well is the one who told me about this observation about me learning to express my anger outwards and in a healthier way.
It seems almost as if you're arguing the program was as effective as jail would have been as rehabilitation.
Well that might deserve it's own thread, but I think the program was better than jail would have been. We had our own little community, with school, and responsibilities like cleaning and writing about ourselves. For a few months I saw a therapist once per week. We were not fenced in, and we were surrounded by nature. Yes if you ran they would chase you, but we weren't locked up in cells or chained with shackles. There are many reasons I think the program is better than jail, it would take a while for me to explain them all.
It sounds to me as if the program didn't work at all. You were determined to go down "that path" and while they might have restrained you for a while, it doesn't sound like they instilled any desire to change. Max. Do you really think a person can be forced to quit substances? Do you really think that works in the long run? Seems to me that like most things, once the threat of force is removed there is no incentive to continue. Seems to me the program didn't save your life as much as it merely postponed what you chose and were determined to make inevitable.
I was forced to stop using drugs the time I was locked up, whether in a hospital, RTC, or private program. I don't know if it works in the long run, it probably does for some people. I ended up going back to using after I got out, but it was never to the extreme every day usage and physical addiction I had before. A big reason why is because people knew about it, it wasn't secret anymore so it wasn't as easy to hide. The program worked like an ER, they took me in at my worst and kept me from using as long as they could. They didn't cure me, but they did temporarily keep me from harming myself. That's all my family ever wanted, or so I'm told. So they got what they payed for.
So what you're basically saying is the same thing could be accomplished for a lot cheaper by simply locking your kids in the basement for a few years?
Well they'd probably end up messed up if you did that. In the program we weren't locked in cement cells with iron bars, and shuffled around in shackels by prison guards. I would describe more like a very strict boarding school. So we had activities, and times when we would laugh. We would get candy every week, and every kid got a cake on their birthday. It wasn't all bad all the time. Some times were stressful, but it was about a million times better than jail would be, or being locked in a basement. We had other kids to socialize with, and made friends. Like I said, I would describe it as a strict boarding school with group therapy sessions every few months, but more than therapy I'd describe it as a motivational seminar actually.
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Can you describe exactly what that term "accountability" means as it was taught. Are you accountable for everything that happened to in your life, including things that were done to you?
That's their definition, but I'm talking about more of a personal realization than what they taught at seminars. It was my fault I ended up in the program, and I don't mean this in the sense that they teach in seminars. Yes they teach a rigid form of accountability and choices, something I don't fully agree with. I think they teach it because it gives you a sense of control and a new way of making choices, and I find similar ideology in a lot of other things. We weren't taught AA, or 12 steps or anything like that in the program. They never mentioned it once, and addiction was for the most part considered a choice. AA philosophy and program ideology are actually quite different, if not contradictory.
I completely agree. They're polar opposites. The mistake is to think they are the only two philosophies. AA teaches you are powerless. The seminars teach you are at cause for everything and can thus control everything. The middle-ground, what I believe, is that you choose and are responsible for 100% of your actions (including bad habits), but you are not responsible for what other people do to you, even if you accidentally put yourself in that situation (abuse, rape, etc).
I tend to side with AA type argument more, based on what I've seen and my own experiences with addiction. I don't believe people choose to destroy their lives, at a certain point what once might have been a choice becomes an unhealthy addiction, which I think is a form of mental disorder like depression.
I sort of agree with you there... sort of. I see addiction as a symptom of mental illness, not a mental illness in itself. People use hard drugs to cope with problems. It alleviates the symptoms but makes the root causes (diseases, shitty experiences, etc) worse. It creates a vicious circle. Still. People choose to quit drugs all the time. You can't quit a disease. Because you can choose to quit, the choice to continue must also be a choice. It's probably difficult to look back on things and face the truth that you chose drugs over family and friends, but that's the reality of what happened. Low self worth, depression, overbearing parents, the trauma from program's abuse. All these things can contribute and can constitute diseases in some cases but putting substances in your body to alleviate the symptoms is merely a symptom in itself. AA, on the other hand, teaches that addition is a primary disease.
Using drugs to the degree some people do, is as logical as jumping off a bridge when life gets tough. It's not a rational choice people make, something is wrong with them.
People make irrational choices all the time based on their desires. It's easy to choose temporary relief over hard work and pain required to get back on track. Still a choice.
But when I say I personally learned accountability, it's not because of what was taught to me. It was shown to me, that if I acted in a certain way, I would be held accountable.
In that context accountable means "punishment", and punishments are only as just as those in power. "Responsibility", on the other hand, is acknowledging your mistakes and learning from them. Very different things.
There was no way to talk your way out of a punishment, or manipulate your way out of the program this time. I learned that my actions and choices led me to being there, even though I found this point difficult at first, I came to realize over time this was true.
Sure. Maybe your choices did lead you there. It's not true of all kids but it might have been for you. It still does not make the punishments just. Remember the Hobbit?
It seems almost as if you're arguing the program was as effective as jail would have been as rehabilitation.
Well that might deserve it's own thread, but I think the program was better than jail would have been. We had our own little community, with school, and responsibilities like cleaning and writing about ourselves. For a few months I saw a therapist once per week. We were not fenced in, and we were surrounded by nature. Yes if you ran they would chase you, but we weren't locked up in cells or chained with shackles. There are many reasons I think the program is better than jail, it would take a while for me to explain them all.
I think you're right. It does deserve it'w own thread.
It sounds to me as if the program didn't work at all. You were determined to go down "that path" and while they might have restrained you for a while, it doesn't sound like they instilled any desire to change. Max. Do you really think a person can be forced to quit substances? Do you really think that works in the long run? Seems to me that like most things, once the threat of force is removed there is no incentive to continue. Seems to me the program didn't save your life as much as it merely postponed what you chose and were determined to make inevitable.
I was forced to stop using drugs the time I was locked up, whether in a hospital, RTC, or private program. I don't know if it works in the long run, it probably does for some people. I ended up going back to using after I got out, but it was never to the extreme every day usage and physical addiction I had before. A big reason why is because people knew about it, it wasn't secret anymore so it wasn't as easy to hide.
Since when does social pressure affect a disease? There is a reason Jewish families have a very lot incedence of alcoholism and addiction: it's simply very very shameful.
The program worked like an ER, they took me in at my worst and kept me from using as long as they could. They didn't cure me, but they did temporarily keep me from harming myself. That's all my family ever wanted, or so I'm told. So they got what they payed for.
So what you're basically saying is the same thing could be accomplished for a lot cheaper by simply locking your kids in the basement for a few years?
Well they'd probably end up messed up if you did that. In the program we weren't locked in cement cells with iron bars, and shuffled around in shackels by prison guards. I would describe more like a very strict boarding school. So we had activities, and times when we would laugh. We would get candy every week, and every kid got a cake on their birthday. It wasn't all bad all the time. Some times were stressful, but it was about a million times better than jail would be, or being locked in a basement. We had other kids to socialize with, and made friends.
Max. If you're going to be honest, why not be completely honest: were you ever locked in an isolation room?
Were there kids that really didn't belong there? Do you consider the program ethical for keeping them?
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Like I said, I would describe it as a strict boarding school with group therapy sessions every few months, but more than therapy I'd describe it as a motivational seminar actually.
Right. But that motivational seminar is a carbon copy of LifeSpring. It's cultic indoctrination, not therapy. The processes they use are designed to manipulate people's emotions, opinions, and thoughts without their informed consent. I'm not at all against throwing kids in a lockup if they've committed a crime. What i'm against is performing permanent change on their minds without their informed consent. It would be bad enough if it worked long term but the fact is it rarely does, and when it does the only lasting change is trauma. Because it lasts into adulthood it's basically an adult decision. You wouldn't perform cosmetic surgery on a child. This shouldn't be permissible either. You said yourself that you were not going to change. It took the desire, right? and you had to find that on your own.
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I completely agree. They're polar opposites. The mistake is to think they are the only two philosophies. AA teaches you are powerless. The seminars teach you are at cause for everything and can thus control everything. The middle-ground, what I believe, is that you choose and are responsible for 100% of your actions (including bad habits), but you are not responsible for what other people do to you, even if you accidentally put yourself in that situation (abuse, rape, etc).
I also feel I believe in a middle ground between the two philosophies. But I disagree that alcohol or drug addiction can be considered simply a bad habit. I believe more in the disease theory, but there are other topics for that discussion.
I sort of agree with you there... sort of. I see addiction as a symptom of mental illness, not a mental illness in itself. People use hard drugs to cope with problems. It alleviates the symptoms but makes the root causes (diseases, shitty experiences, etc) worse. It creates a vicious circle. Still. People choose to quit drugs all the time. You can't quit a disease. Because you can choose to quit, the choice to continue must also be a choice. It's probably difficult to look back on things and face the truth that you chose drugs over family and friends, but that's the reality of what happened. Low self worth, depression, overbearing parents, the trauma from program's abuse. All these things can contribute and can constitute diseases in some cases but putting substances in your body to alleviate the symptoms is merely a symptom in itself. AA, on the other hand, teaches that addition is a primary disease.
I think some people use drugs recreationally at first not to cope with problems, but to fit in with friends and have fun. This can turn into an addiction over time, which then creates problems as a result of the drug use itself. I just read a story on another website the other day about a DJ who started using E because it's a large part of the electronic music scene, and ended up using too much and causing memory problems. That person talked about how similar things happen to other DJ that use E too much. It starts out fun, and part of a lifestyle, and can degenerate quickly. It happens to college kids who start drinking to party, but can't stop the next morning like their peers. They end up having issues, but most of their friends can deal with it fine. Should we believe the person who has issues with it, chooses to be that way? I don't think that's accurate, at least in my opinion.
I don't think AA is as rigid as people here portray it to be. Yes the steps talk about powerlessness, but there is also choice. People choose to not drink again, and to come to meetings. I think AA is a support group that helps people, with similar issues the people there have dealt with. But if you slip up and relapse, you aren't condemned and given up on, people accept that as part of recovery.
People make irrational choices all the time based on their desires. It's easy to choose temporary relief over hard work and pain required to get back on track. Still a choice.
I think calling it a choice doesn't properly convey the reality of it, it's too simplistic. The term disease also does not encompass the entirety of the complexity of addiction, but I feel it is closer to describing it than a choice.
Max. If you're going to be honest, why not be completely honest: were you ever locked in an isolation room?
I was locked in isolation in the psychiatric hospital and the private program. In all cases I broke the rules that were clearly explained to me beforehand, and knew full well what the consequences to my actions were going to be. So the real question is why did I choose to put myself in isolation, and that's a hard question to answer.
Were there kids that really didn't belong there? Do you consider the program ethical for keeping them?
I don't know. From my view, sure there were kids there who I questioned why it was necessary for them to be there. But then again, I only got their version of the story, so who knows what was really going on with them at home. I don't know if it was unethical or not for them to be there, that's above my pay grade.
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I was locked in isolation in the psychiatric hospital and the private program. In all cases I broke the rules that were clearly explained to me beforehand, and knew full well what the consequences to my actions were going to be. So the real question is why did I choose to put myself in isolation, and that's a hard question to answer.
Max. If somebody says to you: behave this absurd way or i'll beat you, and you refuse to behave in the absurd way, and you are beaten, it's still wrong for them to beat you. You're responsible for your actions, not those of others, even if you "put yourself" in that situation. Might does not make right, Max. Sometimes the sense of self saved by refusing to comply is more than worth it.
I'll respond more tomorrow. I'm a bit tired.
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Can you describe exactly what that term "accountability" means as it was taught. Are you accountable for everything that happened to in your life, including things that were done to you?
That's their definition, but I'm talking about more of a personal realization than what they taught at seminars. It was my fault I ended up in the program, and I don't mean this in the sense that they teach in seminars. Yes they teach a rigid form of accountability and choices, something I don't fully agree with. I think they teach it because it gives you a sense of control and a new way of making choices, and I find similar ideology in a lot of other things. We weren't taught AA, or 12 steps or anything like that in the program. They never mentioned it once, and addiction was for the most part considered a choice. AA philosophy and program ideology are actually quite different, if not contradictory.
I completely agree. They're polar opposites. The mistake is to think they are the only two philosophies. AA teaches you are powerless. The seminars teach you are at cause for everything and can thus control everything. The middle-ground, what I believe, is that you choose and are responsible for 100% of your actions (including bad habits), but you are not responsible for what other people do to you, even if you accidentally put yourself in that situation (abuse, rape, etc).
I tend to side with AA type argument more, based on what I've seen and my own experiences with addiction. I don't believe people choose to destroy their lives, at a certain point what once might have been a choice becomes an unhealthy addiction, which I think is a form of mental disorder like depression.
I sort of agree with you there... sort of. I see addiction as a symptom of mental illness, not a mental illness in itself. People use hard drugs to cope with problems. It alleviates the symptoms but makes the root causes (diseases, shitty experiences, etc) worse. It creates a vicious circle. Still. People choose to quit drugs all the time. You can't quit a disease. Because you can choose to quit, the choice to continue must also be a choice. It's probably difficult to look back on things and face the truth that you chose drugs over family and friends, but that's the reality of what happened. Low self worth, depression, overbearing parents, the trauma from program's abuse. All these things can contribute and can constitute diseases in some cases but putting substances in your body to alleviate the symptoms is merely a symptom in itself. AA, on the other hand, teaches that addition is a primary disease.
No AA, if you look inside the Big Book does not teach the disease concept nor does it go on to teach about the allergy concept, Psy. This is TC teaching that have been going on for darn near 45 years that it trickled into AA meeting from folks coming out of these TC's.
This has been my whole point from the get go, most of what you have against AA/NA I'm sure Max, any responsible AA member and myself don't have a problem with. AA in my opinion has changed into a surrogate parent for the TC's and it enables bad thought reform and behavior. Which it was not intended to do, AA is not perfect by any means not one self help program is but it was not intended for members to sit around and blame a disease for their problems.
Using drugs to the degree some people do, is as logical as jumping off a bridge when life gets tough. It's not a rational choice people make, something is wrong with them.
People make irrational choices all the time based on their desires. It's easy to choose temporary relief over hard work and pain required to get back on track. Still a choice.
Not a choice in the conventional sense, Psy. Yes people do have desires which test decisions but drugs have a impact on our system that we did not or could not see coming and before you know it your in over your head.
But when I say I personally learned accountability, it's not because of what was taught to me. It was shown to me, that if I acted in a certain way, I would be held accountable.
In that context accountable means "punishment", and punishments are only as just as those in power. "Responsibility", on the other hand, is acknowledging your mistakes and learning from them. Very different things.
I think you learn responsibility by being punished for clear decisions that were made in a state of revolt. Punishment is not a bad thing as you said. Learning accountability I'm sorry Psy , comes mainly from being punished either from yourself or others.
There was no way to talk your way out of a punishment, or manipulate your way out of the program this time. I learned that my actions and choices led me to being there, even though I found this point difficult at first, I came to realize over time this was true.
Sure. Maybe your choices did lead you there. It's not true of all kids but it might have been for you. It still does not make the punishments just. Remember the Hobbit?
It seems almost as if you're arguing the program was as effective as jail would have been as rehabilitation.
Well that might deserve it's own thread, but I think the program was better than jail would have been. We had our own little community, with school, and responsibilities like cleaning and writing about ourselves. For a few months I saw a therapist once per week. We were not fenced in, and we were surrounded by nature. Yes if you ran they would chase you, but we weren't locked up in cells or chained with shackles. There are many reasons I think the program is better than jail, it would take a while for me to explain them all.
I think you're right. It does deserve it'w own thread.
It sounds to me as if the program didn't work at all. You were determined to go down "that path" and while they might have restrained you for a while, it doesn't sound like they instilled any desire to change. Max. Do you really think a person can be forced to quit substances? Do you really think that works in the long run? Seems to me that like most things, once the threat of force is removed there is no incentive to continue. Seems to me the program didn't save your life as much as it merely postponed what you chose and were determined to make inevitable.
Why is it so difficult for you to accept that AA did help him, Psy your understanding of AA is not mainstream, you are way left.
I was forced to stop using drugs the time I was locked up, whether in a hospital, RTC, or private program. I don't know if it works in the long run, it probably does for some people. I ended up going back to using after I got out, but it was never to the extreme every day usage and physical addiction I had before. A big reason why is because people knew about it, it wasn't secret anymore so it wasn't as easy to hide.
Since when does social pressure affect a disease? There is a reason Jewish families have a very lot incedence of alcoholism and addiction: it's simply very very shameful.
Well I am out of this paragraph because I don't believe in the disease theory, it does not effect social situations but you dealing with your addiction does.
The program worked like an ER, they took me in at my worst and kept me from using as long as they could. They didn't cure me, but they did temporarily keep me from harming myself. That's all my family ever wanted, or so I'm told. So they got what they payed for.
So what you're basically saying is the same thing could be accomplished for a lot cheaper by simply locking your kids in the basement for a few years?
Well they'd probably end up messed up if you did that. In the program we weren't locked in cement cells with iron bars, and shuffled around in shackels by prison guards. I would describe more like a very strict boarding school. So we had activities, and times when we would laugh. We would get candy every week, and every kid got a cake on their birthday. It wasn't all bad all the time. Some times were stressful, but it was about a million times better than jail would be, or being locked in a basement. We had other kids to socialize with, and made friends.
Max. If you're going to be honest, why not be completely honest: were you ever locked in an isolation room?
Were there kids that really didn't belong there? Do you consider the program ethical for keeping them?
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Like I said, I would describe it as a strict boarding school with group therapy sessions every few months, but more than therapy I'd describe it as a motivational seminar actually.
Right. But that motivational seminar is a carbon copy of LifeSpring. It's cultic indoctrination, not therapy. The processes they use are designed to manipulate people's emotions, opinions, and thoughts without their informed consent. I'm not at all against throwing kids in a lockup if they've committed a crime. What i'm against is performing permanent change on their minds without their informed consent. It would be bad enough if it worked long term but the fact is it rarely does, and when it does the only lasting change is trauma. Because it lasts into adulthood it's basically an adult decision. You wouldn't perform cosmetic surgery on a child. This shouldn't be permissible either. You said yourself that you were not going to change. It took the desire, right? and you had to find that on your own.
Well I don't think it's permanent. I don't think there are many 20 something seminar participants walking around talking about their 'I am' statements and regurgitating phrases like there is no right and wrong, or there are no accidents. In my opinion and experience, the seminars provided a short term euphoric effect that quickly wore off, I didn't sense the people around me fundamentally changing into program robots like some people here describe. I think eventually people learned if you followed the rules, and did what you're told, then you'd get to go home quicker. It wasn't really that complicated. The seminar circus rolled through town every couple months, so most of the program was about the day to day stuff. I thought the seminars were ridiculous at times, but I will admit they were somewhat exhilarating at the same time. But I never really believed in their ideology fully, or even understood it really. In the seminars I felt like the dumb kid in class that just didn't get it, and was pretending to fit in and worried about being exposed as the fake that I was during it.
I had the desire to quit drugs for a long time before I was finally able to. It was a complicated situation, and wasn't as simple as making a choice to just stop, at least for me.
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If you really think about it Programs’ main strength is that they can provide a safe haven for kids who just need to be removed from their environment. Many of the kids just didn’t respond to local services and it was determined that if left to their present path that they would end up in trouble so the only alternative would be to get them the heck out of the environment they were in.
Inside a TBS they receive counseling, academics, no peer pressure to take drugs, learn new habits regarding study, self care, better nutrition, highly structured, an environment which can reduce or eliminate their use of present prescribed medication.
These are all things that can be provided by a stable home life but for some reason wasn’t working or wasn’t present for them. Maybe both parents work, maybe they have no extended family to rely on, maybe todays kids don’t rely on family as much and reach out to peers who could be a bad influence. Maybe the present day medications are making the kids worse.
I think the program teaches the kids that they can be successful and they are in control of their own lives. I don’t think there is anything permanent like brainwashing going on. The program values wash off over time as the child slowly immerges back into the world while they are exposed to less structure. But they are on a good path and remember the success they had while in the program which helps them stay the course as they go.
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All I can say is that parents were only allowed to visit once every few months at my program and some others I know. The staff prepped it well. Parents were never part of the 4 hour thrice weekly raps, which were abusive. There were no individual one on one therapy. Parents did go through a profeet lite - for us it was a 24 hour to one week encounter group of intense psychodrama; for them, it was a couple hours of "I have a dream" bullshit.
So, if you are telling me, Max, that your program was COMPLETELY transparent to parents, you were in luck. But did you have 1 on 1 therapy where no one coerced you into a "truth" that may or not have been yours'?
Your description of a strict boarding school where you had group therapy every few months doesn't ring true for me. It seems weird you'd only have therapy once in a blue moon.
We certainly had a highly structured environment. Right down to shower minutes. I'm just glad it wasn't like Straight where you couldn't even go to the loo without being beltlooped.
The problem with the highly structured environment is that you can't duplicate it at home. When we got home, we had time to think and started realizing that even our thoughts and beliefs were structured at CEDU. And I'm not talking about turning the negative into the positive either - I wish I was. I'm talking we were not allowed to think as independent, intelligent people.
Many TBS's are totally contrived environments that do not in fact, teach it's residents how to cope outside in the real world.
Whooter, I really don't think you can say "inside a TBS" as though you are the authority on every TBS. Mine didn't have accredited counseling or real academics, and it sure as hell did not teach good nutrition, self care, and the ability to make solid independent decisions. Others in more recent programs report similar inefficacies.
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The problem with the highly structured environment is that you can't duplicate it at home. When we got home, we had time to think and started realizing that even our thoughts and beliefs were structured at CEDU. And I'm not talking about turning the negative into the positive either - I wish I was. I'm talking we were not allowed to think as independent, intelligent people.
Many TBS's are totally contrived environments that do not in fact, teach it's residents how to cope outside in the real world.
I have to agree that the high structure was a problem when it came time to come home. My daughter struggled with the transition home and ended up back with her old friends old habits fairly quickly because the 24/7 structure wasn’t there and it isn’t realistic to expect a family to be able to duplicate that environment. Fortunately the communication skills she learned allowed her and I to talk openly and she got back on track fairly quickly.
Whooter, I really don't think you can say "inside a TBS" as though you are the authority on every TBS. Mine didn't have accredited counseling or real academics, and it sure as hell did not teach good nutrition, self care, and the ability to make solid independent decisions. Others in more recent programs report similar inefficacies.
Its an old habit I picked up from posting here for many years. You may have noticed that many posters will say: “programs are abusive” instead of saying something more specific like: “The program I went to, CEDU, was abusive”. So I guess I slowly adapted over time and instead of saying ASR I say “TBS’s”. I will take us all a little while to adjust.
ASR provided outside counseling for my daughter who communicated with her therapist at home which made me feel more comfortable. Self care may not have been paramount but the nutrition was. When she got home we were initially making daily trips to Whole foods. ASR made provisions for many diets, Vegetarian, Vegan. The food was actually quite good. They didn’t grow their own herbs or promote an organic lifestyle but they taught her good nutrition.
The strength on many TBS’s as I have read are that they promote and teach children to be independent and learn that they can achieve a great deal if they pursue it and to believe in themselves. I have read here that CEDU did not have the same effect(and values) and that is unfortunate.
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Food at Three Springs was fucking horrifically bad. Food at Eckerds, at least E-Kill-A-Kid, was damn good. The one thing I actually liked about E-Kill-A-Kid was the insistence on the kids learning how to write menus to develop their knowledge of nutrition, budgeting, and basic math.
My group was the only one on campus banned from using calculators.
:smug:
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So, if you are telling me, Max, that your program was COMPLETELY transparent to parents, you were in luck. But did you have 1 on 1 therapy where no one coerced you into a "truth" that may or not have been yours'?
Well most parents didn't take a tour from what I saw. But for the people who did choose to come, like I said, I know they didn't try very hard to hide things, if they were why would they show them the inside of the isolation room.
Your description of a strict boarding school where you had group therapy every few months doesn't ring true for me. It seems weird you'd only have therapy once in a blue moon.
We had the seminars every couple months. There was a therapist with an office on facility grounds who came from town, but this was optional and parents had to pay extra. I saw this therapist for the last few weeks that I was there once per week for like half an hour. During meals we listened to motivational tapes like Tony Robbins and Deepok Chopra and people like that. Then at night we were required to write a couple sentences about what we heard, and how it relates to us. Every night when we were getting ready for bed, someone would yell out and remind us what the topic of the tapes were, since most of us didn't listen. Then we'd write a couple sentences about whatever, and they accepted it. Every week we'd have a meeting with a staff but it wasn't confrontational therapy or anything, just rehashing any group issues. We lived with the same group all the time, so sometimes issued had to be resolved. Besides that it was just the day to day issues of following the rules, that made up like 90% of the program really.
We certainly had a highly structured environment. Right down to shower minutes. I'm just glad it wasn't like Straight where you couldn't even go to the loo without being beltlooped.
We had limited showers as well, usually about 3-5 minutes depending on how the schedule worked out. There was a whole political debate surrounding the showers, and the person in control of that schedule had no trouble making friends. Some shower heads had more pressure than others, and were in a more desired location, etc. When you first get there you get the worst spot on the schedule in the shower that has the lowest pressure, because you're new and at the bottom of the pecking order. I could probably write a whole page just about shower politics, but I don't want to bore people. We also had to clean a lot, lots of things to say about that as well, but I won't right now.
The problem with the highly structured environment is that you can't duplicate it at home. When we got home, we had time to think and started realizing that even our thoughts and beliefs were structured at CEDU. And I'm not talking about turning the negative into the positive either - I wish I was. I'm talking we were not allowed to think as independent, intelligent people.
When I finally got home which took some doing, I was an adult and less controllable. I went back to using and quickly got arrested and forced back into a state hospital and then drug treatment, etc. The story of treatment continued for me after the private program. I don't think I was ever successfully brainwashed by the program, I left the program angry and hated it.
Many TBS's are totally contrived environments that do not in fact, teach it's residents how to cope outside in the real world.
I think that's a fair enough argument. Programs are highly controlled, where as the real world, especially when you turn an adult is like a playground where you can do whatever you want. I do think programs try to help people find new coping skills that they can take with them, but I'm not saying the succeed all the time. All my parent was expecting was a place that would temporarily keep me safe from myself and they succeeded. Ater that the choice was mine, and yes I kept making some bad choices.
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During meals we listened to motivational tapes like Tony Robbins and Deepok Chopra and people like that.
Man, I'd be suing the shit out of someone if they forced me to listen to either of those idiots. And that's a page right out of SCL's playbook.
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During meals we listened to motivational tapes like Tony Robbins and Deepok Chopra and people like that.
Man, I'd be suing the shit out of someone if they forced me to listen to either of those idiots. And that's a page right out of SCL's playbook.
First comment (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=28923&p=378576#p378533) on Cassandra Yorgey's piece, "Breaking news: Transcript of private call between James Ray and sweat lodge victims (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=28923&p=378533#p378350)," emphasis added:
by seminar junkie · 11 months ago
If you want a life-altering experience, I'd recommend you attend seminars and read books by self-help experts like
Tony Robbins and James Arthur Ray.[/list][/list]
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If you really think about it Programs’ main strength is that they can provide a safe haven for kids who just need to be removed from their environment. Many of the kids just didn’t respond to local services and it was determined that if left to their present path that they would end up in trouble so the only alternative would be to get them the heck out of the environment they were in.
I learned more, and was exposed to far more drug use in HLA than I ever was in public school. Kids were constantly looking for ways to get high, and would utilize anything on hand they felt would get the job done. Huffing paint cans, making tea from morning glory, stealing sharpees from the class rooms et cet.
Inside a TBS they receive counseling, academics, no peer pressure to take drugs, learn new habits regarding study, self care, better nutrition, highly structured, an environment which can reduce or eliminate their use of present prescribed medication.
Counseling from unlicensed hacks using unproven tactics, academics from unlicensed teachers often teaching subjects they know little to nothing about, occasionally being forced to attend NA meetings, constant secondary focus on education, negative reinforcement on any offense, restriction diet used as a punishment, improper handling of medication, and constant upheaval and double standards.
These are all things that can be provided by a stable home life but for some reason wasn’t working or wasn’t present for them. Maybe both parents work, maybe they have no extended family to rely on, maybe todays kids don’t rely on family as much and reach out to peers who could be a bad influence. Maybe the present day medications are making the kids worse
Or maybe they're just bad parents.
I think the program teaches the kids that they can be successful and they are in control of their own lives. I don’t think there is anything permanent like brainwashing going on. The program values wash off over time as the child slowly immerges back into the world while they are exposed to less structure. But they are on a good path and remember the success they had while in the program which helps them stay the course as they go.
The kids have no control over anything while locked up in the programs. The brainwashing tactics are designed to be permanent, just some kids are able to withstand it better than others.
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If you really think about it Programs’ main strength is that they can provide a safe haven for kids who just need to be removed from their environment. Many of the kids just didn’t respond to local services and it was determined that if left to their present path that they would end up in trouble so the only alternative would be to get them the heck out of the environment they were in.
I learned more, and was exposed to far more drug use in HLA than I ever was in public school. Kids were constantly looking for ways to get high, and would utilize anything on hand they felt would get the job done. Huffing paint cans, making tea from morning glory, stealing sharpees from the class rooms et cet.
That is almost completely impossible to fathom, I could understand if you said I learned more about drugs through conversation while in treatment then I did in public school (that would be hard to swallow also) but this observation your suppling here is incredible, Robert. Are you sure you are not confused because your experience in HLA was so traumatic that it has clouded over your public school memories. Just asking????
I am familiar HLA, as a matter of fact it is right in my back yard, I know several kids (now adults) that went there. I am not arguing with you about how screwed up a program it was, because it was.
Hey, I thought you were staff there, not a resident. If I remember correctly you said you were never a resident of a program, I could be confusing you with someone else that resembles you quite well. If I am I apologize.
Inside a TBS they receive counseling, academics, no peer pressure to take drugs, learn new habits regarding study, self care, better nutrition, highly structured, an environment which can reduce or eliminate their use of present prescribed medication.
Counseling from unlicensed hacks using unproven tactics, academics from unlicensed teachers often teaching subjects they know little to nothing about, occasionally being forced to attend NA meetings, constant secondary focus on education, negative reinforcement on any offense, restriction diet used as a punishment, improper handling of medication, and constant upheaval and double standards.
These are all things that can be provided by a stable home life but for some reason wasn’t working or wasn’t present for them. Maybe both parents work, maybe they have no extended family to rely on, maybe todays kids don’t rely on family as much and reach out to peers who could be a bad influence. Maybe the present day medications are making the kids worse
Or maybe they're just bad parents.
I think the program teaches the kids that they can be successful and they are in control of their own lives. I don’t think there is anything permanent like brainwashing going on. The program values wash off over time as the child slowly immerges back into the world while they are exposed to less structure. But they are on a good path and remember the success they had while in the program which helps them stay the course as they go.
The kids have no control over anything while locked up in the programs. The brainwashing tactics are designed to be permanent, just some kids are able to withstand it better than others.
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If you really think about it Programs’ main strength is that they can provide a safe haven for kids who just need to be removed from their environment. Many of the kids just didn’t respond to local services and it was determined that if left to their present path that they would end up in trouble so the only alternative would be to get them the heck out of the environment they were in.
If it was just that and left out the LGAT/thought-reform crap and was an enjoyable place for them to spend some "time out", you might have a point. But we all know that's not what it is.
Inside a TBS they receive counseling, academics, no peer pressure to take drugs, learn new habits regarding study, self care, better nutrition, highly structured, an environment which can reduce or eliminate their use of present prescribed medication.
Said "counseling" is often done by unqualified persons and most of the "counseling" is based on the damn LGATs, as we've seen with Aspen who admits that they don't provide any treatment. Academics appear to be no better than any public school and quite often worse, as the kids can't use the "credits" they thought they'd accumulated in program because said program's academics are unaccredited. There's huge peer pressure to conform to the group and 'confess your sins' to them (to later be used against you). Having unqualified facilitators doing this isn't helpful to anyone, except the program.
These are all things that can be provided by a stable home life but for some reason wasn’t working or wasn’t present for them. Maybe both parents work, maybe they have no extended family to rely on, maybe todays kids don’t rely on family as much and reach out to peers who could be a bad influence. Maybe the present day medications are making the kids worse.
Since most of these places are extremely expensive, the parents could surely take that money to either take the time off necessary to spend with the child or take them hiking through Europe or something similar. Exposure to a different country's culture can do wonders for the typical American kid.
I think the program teaches the kids that they can be successful and they are in control of their own lives.
I know you think this, but it's just not true. If anything, it teaches them dependency on one program or another as most are recommended or required to attend further "meetings" (whether LGAT/AA etc.) as part of their aftercare.
I don’t think there is anything permanent like brainwashing going on.
I know you think that and it's somewhat true....eventually the 'washing' wears off but not before it's done its core damage to the psyche. Sure, we eventually get most of our own minds back, but it's like someone's put an egg scrambler to them. The damage that attack/confrontation "therapy" does, doesn't go away so easily. That is what can last for years. Then there are those poor souls who completely fall for the brainwashing and continue, as adults, to be unable to function without some form of dependence on a 'group' and its approval so they seek out LGAT-like groups (i.e. New Warrior Training/Mankind Project, Scientology).
The program values wash off over time as the child slowly immerges back into the world while they are exposed to less structure.
They're thrown back into the real world, stripped of all their defenses, broken and confused and expected to resume their lives as though "normal".
But they are on a good path and remember the success they had while in the program which helps them stay the course as they go.
Not really. I was considered a "success" when I graduated Straight. The minute...and I mean the very second that I started to question it and its methods, I was deemed a failure, doomed to a life of "deathinsanityorjail". All Straight did was confuse the shit out of me, make me feel like I was a complete failure and that I was responsible for every single bad thing in my parents' lives. Hell, I was even told flat out by Ruth Ann Newton, Assistant Director, that the sexual abuse I experienced as a child "was a result of my behavior". I was fucking 7 goddamned years old and being sexually abused was somehow a "result of my behavior"???
These places work off of "the end justifies the means" crap and that anything they do, no matter how crazy, abusive or damaging, as long as it helps someone, anyone or has good intentions, is worth it. What a bunch of bullshit.
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If you really think about it Programs’ main strength is that they can provide a safe haven for kids who just need to be removed from their environment. Many of the kids just didn’t respond to local services and it was determined that if left to their present path that they would end up in trouble so the only alternative would be to get them the heck out of the environment they were in.
If it was just that and left out the LGAT/thought-reform crap and was an enjoyable place for them to spend some "time out", you might have a point. But we all know that's not what it is.
Inside a TBS they receive counseling, academics, no peer pressure to take drugs, learn new habits regarding study, self care, better nutrition, highly structured, an environment which can reduce or eliminate their use of present prescribed medication.
Said "counseling" is often done by unqualified persons and most of the "counseling" is based on the damn LGATs, as we've seen with Aspen who admits that they don't provide any treatment. Academics appear to be no better than any public school and quite often worse, as the kids can't use the "credits" they thought they'd accumulated in program because said program's academics are unaccredited. There's huge peer pressure to conform to the group and 'confess your sins' to them (to later be used against you). Having unqualified facilitators doing this isn't helpful to anyone, except the program.
These are all things that can be provided by a stable home life but for some reason wasn’t working or wasn’t present for them. Maybe both parents work, maybe they have no extended family to rely on, maybe todays kids don’t rely on family as much and reach out to peers who could be a bad influence. Maybe the present day medications are making the kids worse.
Since most of these places are extremely expensive, the parents could surely take that money to either take the time off necessary to spend with the child or take them hiking through Europe or something similar. Exposure to a different country's culture can do wonders for the typical American kid.
I think the program teaches the kids that they can be successful and they are in control of their own lives.
I know you think this, but it's just not true. If anything, it teaches them dependency on one program or another as most are recommended or required to attend further "meetings" (whether LGAT/AA etc.) as part of their aftercare.
I don’t think there is anything permanent like brainwashing going on.
I know you think that and it's somewhat true....eventually the 'washing' wears off but not before it's done its core damage to the psyche. Sure, we eventually get most of our own minds back, but it's like someone's put an egg scrambler to them. The damage that attack/confrontation "therapy" does, doesn't go away so easily. That is what can last for years. Then there are those poor souls who completely fall for the brainwashing and continue, as adults, to be unable to function without some form of dependence on a 'group' and its approval so they seek out LGAT-like groups (i.e. New Warrior Training/Mankind Project, Scientology).
The program values wash off over time as the child slowly immerges back into the world while they are exposed to less structure.
They're thrown back into the real world, stripped of all their defenses, broken and confused and expected to resume their lives as though "normal".
But they are on a good path and remember the success they had while in the program which helps them stay the course as they go.
Not really. I was considered a "success" when I graduated Straight. The minute...and I mean the very second that I started to question it and its methods, I was deemed a failure, doomed to a life of "deathinsanityorjail". All Straight did was confuse the shit out of me, make me feel like I was a complete failure and that I was responsible for every single bad thing in my parents' lives. Hell, I was even told flat out by Ruth Ann Newton, Assistant Director, that the sexual abuse I experienced as a child "was a result of my behavior". I was fucking 7 goddamned years old and being sexually abused was somehow a "result of my behavior"???
These places work off of "the end justifies the means" crap and that anything they do, no matter how crazy, abusive or damaging, as long as it helps someone, anyone or has good intentions, is worth it. What a bunch of bullshit.
Anne, why are you talking like this is still going on in programs, today. Were both reading the same articles coming out today and reading the posts here, I have not seen the comparison of what Straight subjected you to as what current children are going through today.
Am I wrong????
I am not trying to convince you that the current programs should meet your expectations but I had thought they had steered away from LGAT's and so forth over the last 4-5 years. I base this on reading posts here and on other sites.
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Aspen Education's Mount Bachelor Academy was shut down just a few months ago for LGATs, child abuse, child neglect and ritualized sexual abuse. That's pretty much how Straight operated. Aspen Education programs still operate on those premeses today (the ones not shut down yet by authorities, that is).
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These places work off of "the end justifies the means" crap and that anything they do, no matter how crazy, abusive or damaging, as long as it helps someone, anyone or has good intentions, is worth it. What a bunch of bullshit.
If you had to make a choice as a parent to put your kid in a program or watch them die what would you choose. There aren't a lot of options out there for parents really. Would you rather have your kid complain about LGAT and still be alive? It's exchanging short term hardship for a long term success, which is living the rest of your life. I know people don't agree with this here, but this is how many parents see it.
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Aspen Education's Mount Bachelor Academy was shut down just a few months ago for LGATs, child abuse, child neglect and ritualized sexual abuse. That's pretty much how Straight operated. Aspen Education programs still operate on those premeses today (the ones not shut down yet by authorities, that is).
Did this not all come to a head a couple of years ago with MBA. They closed down last year I thought.
Anyway I was under the believe LGAT's were a thing of the past, especially the intense ones.
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Anne, why are you talking like this is still going on in programs, today. Were both reading the same articles coming out today and reading the posts here, I have not seen the comparison of what Straight subjected you to as what current children are going through today.
Am I wrong????
IMO, yes......you are.
I am not trying to convince you that the current programs should meet your expectations but I had thought they had steered away from LGAT's and so forth over the last 4-5 years. I base this on reading posts here and on other sites.
They've been saying that since the days of Seed and Straight. "The next one will be better! The next one won't use XXX as treatment! The next one will be kinder and gentler!" Most of what I read, currently, about programs tells me that they're still using LGAT-type, attack/confrontational methods. They're just doing what they've always done and switching names, places etc.
Why anyone thinks that using that (LGAT-type, attack/confrontational methods) on someone who is "troubled" or is having self esteem issues, or really "issues" of any kind is beyond me.
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Programs, schmo-grams. Most of them are nothing but a fat load o'bullshit. (Sure I guess there are a few exceptions.) The system is set up to profit from people's misery, and they get you coming and going. Who the hell has time in their life for programs, anyway? Fools and people with money to burn.
Sure, you gotta have some way for the hardcore heroin, crack and meth addicts to detox, but no forcing anyone into anything.
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Programs, schmo-grams. Most of them are nothing but a fat load o'bullshit. (Sure I guess there are a few exceptions.) The system is set up to profit from people's misery, and they get you coming and going. Who the hell has time in their life for programs, anyway? Fools and people with money to burn.
Sure, you gotta have some way for the hardcore heroin, crack and meth addicts to detox, but no forcing anyone into anything.
Frodie I'm with you, I was a heroin addict and boozer (plus a criminal) I went to drug rehabs that used LGAT's to change your image, it was all about image in the 70's, remember. Your attitude had better change, Bennison. "Change your Image Change your Life". We used shaved heads, signs, outfits, screaming and hollering, then Elan brought in the violent aspect. Fuck I hated that, scared the shit out of everyone. Literally had peoples pissing their pants at the tables wondering what was coming next.
Got to take care of the addicts though, short term treatment, then place them in a structured 3/4 house so they can begin their life again.
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And you buy into that garbage?
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I'm 37, but I'm through giving a shit what the parents' side of the story is. Unless they're anti-program.
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Exactly,Bandit.
I do get the desperation though, when you have a challenging kid.
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Programs, schmo-grams. Most of them are nothing but a fat load o'bullshit. (Sure I guess there are a few exceptions.) The system is set up to profit from people's misery, and they get you coming and going. Who the hell has time in their life for programs, anyway? Fools and people with money to burn.
Sure, you gotta have some way for the hardcore heroin, crack and meth addicts to detox, but no forcing anyone into anything.
Frodie I'm with you, I was a heroin addict and boozer (plus a criminal) I went to drug rehabs that used LGAT's to change your image, it was all about image in the 70's, remember. Your attitude had better change, Bennison. "Change your Image Change your Life". We used shaved heads, signs, outfits, screaming and hollering, then Elan brought in the violent aspect. Fuck I hated that, scared the shit out of everyone. Literally had peoples pissing their pants at the tables wondering what was coming next.
Got to take care of the addicts though, short term treatment, then place them in a structured 3/4 house so they can begin their life again.
Danny I am having a hard time invisioning you like that. You just seem like the kind of cheerful sweet guy. Idk but visioning you like that just is hard for me