Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Maximilian on September 09, 2010, 01:50:25 PM
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Hello again. Im gonna repost what I wrote on another thread, In view of that youre solidifying rules and that I feel there is a necessity to perserve the right to "name names" in some regards, even while ending the right to "name names" in other frameworks . What che's referencing illustrates the kind of posting of personal info that should not be tolerated (i dont know the whole background, but obviously it's done for reasons that are not related to teen abuse but for unreasonable "flame war" concerns)
Since we are all up in arms about making this place a better place could you start here:
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=29840&start=1515 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=29840&start=1515)
You'll notice mr. babble tits posted Felice's personal records on an open forum. I'd like them deleted and him warned. Do so quickly please or this entire thing is going to end up a sham.
On the other hand there are times we should have the right to "name names"...
I see your points. The problem I see there is then we couldn't link to "free so and so campaigns" and such. We couldn't even post names of teens who commit suicide post incarceration or in program. Should fornits administrators really demand posters be "secret keepers," not able to even link to identities’ intricate in this abomination and bury their terrible secret knowledge? I appreciate that it is embarrassing to be exposed as a child abuser for former staff(Joel), I appreciate it is embarrassing for program parents to be exposed as criminals, I appreciate that, in the pile case, that maybe everyone involved wanted what was transpiring to be done secretly. But I don't see why that's fornits posters' burden of secrets to carry...at least not to the point they can't even link to another site about it
The name isn't the issue rather what people do with telephone numbers and addresses etc [where moderation comes into play]. Tony and Angela Smith methods were cruel in my humble opinion but that's the nature of the beast. There was a telephone number of a family member linked. Angela Smith's claims were false. You are entitled to your opinion I am an abuser; I will pay you proper respects. You believe children have the right to "out " staffers and I agree with you. Do I have the right, as a former staffer, to question survivors who "claim" they were sent to programs for something small? There are some survivors, IMHO, who play the child abuser card for wrong reasons.
All kids sent to programs are innocent, ask any fornits poster.
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All kids sent to programs are innocent, ask any fornits poster.
Innocent or not, they don't deserve to be abused and it certainly doesn't help them if they are 'troubled'. The fact is that the kid has no due process, so yes...a lot of "innocent" kids do end up in programs.
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The name isn't the issue rather what people do with telephone numbers and addresses etc [where moderation comes into play]. Tony and Angela Smith methods were cruel in my humble opinion but that's the nature of the beast. There was a telephone number of a family member linked. Angela Smith's claims were false. You are entitled to your opinion I am an abuser; I will pay you proper respects. You believe children have the right to "out " staffers and I agree with you. Do I have the right, as a former staffer, to question survivors who "claim" they were sent to programs for something small? There are some survivors, IMHO, who play the child abuser card for wrong reasons.
Of course you have a right to ask any questions whatsoever.
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Wait a sec... You had said none of the enforcement was going to be retroactive and a whole thread was just retroactively nuked. What's up with that?
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All kids sent to programs are innocent, ask any fornits poster.
Innocent or not, they don't deserve to be abused and it certainly doesn't help them if they are 'troubled'. The fact is that the kid has no due process, so yes...a lot of "innocent" kids do end up in programs.
Just like prisons are full of innocent people, when you ask them why they are in jail. I was never abused in a program, and I was very troubled and needed the help. I also lied about the reasons why I was there, and acted like I had no idea, and I was the victim. That's was just a pity me act to manipulate people, though.
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Wait a sec... You had said none of the enforcement was going to be retroactive and a whole thread was just retroactively nuked. What's up with that?
It wasn't nuked. You'll find it in Open Free For All.
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All kids sent to programs are innocent, ask any fornits poster.
Innocent or not, they don't deserve to be abused and it certainly doesn't help them if they are 'troubled'. The fact is that the kid has no due process, so yes...a lot of "innocent" kids do end up in programs.
Just like prisons are full of innocent people, when you ask them why they are in jail. I was never abused in a program, and I was very troubled and needed the help. I also lied about the reasons why I was there, and acted like I had no idea, and I was the victim. That's was just a pity me act to manipulate people, though.
:blabla:
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All kids sent to programs are innocent, ask any fornits poster.
Innocent or not, they don't deserve to be abused and it certainly doesn't help them if they are 'troubled'. The fact is that the kid has no due process, so yes...a lot of "innocent" kids do end up in programs.
Just like prisons are full of innocent people, when you ask them why they are in jail. I was never abused in a program, and I was very troubled and needed the help. I also lied about the reasons why I was there, and acted like I had no idea, and I was the victim. That's was just a pity me act to manipulate people, though.
That doesn't address in any way what I said. Would you like to try again? Whether or not a kid is "innocent" has no bearing on their right to not be abused. If a kid does have "issues", placing them into an abusive program isn't going to help. Again, the fact is that a kid who's parents are considering sending them to one of the though-reform camps doesn't have any due process, so yes, many "innocent" kids do end up in abusive programs.
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Just like prisons are full of innocent people, when you ask them why they are in jail.
Sure, but there just like there are innocent people in jail, there are innocent kids in program. In my mind, the fact that the never had any sort of due process prior to imprisonment makes all the kids innocent (until proven guilty).
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Just like prisons are full of innocent people, when you ask them why they are in jail.
Sure, but there just like there are innocent people in jail, there are innocent kids in program. In my mind, the fact that the never had any sort of due process prior to imprisonment makes all the kids innocent (until proven guilty).
Actually, there are far fewer so-called innocent people in jail than there are in programs. Both convicted criminals as well as merely charged suspects do have some protection via the legal system, although it is far from perfect.
Not so in the TTI, which is more based on marketing propaganda, exploiting and manipulating parents' perceived and perhaps reinterpreted comfort levels, than it is on any objective or common sense assessment of facts, deeds, and psychological states.
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Oh great! Our own new topic (I didn't start this topic, it was ripped from another thread by an admin and started on my behalf), I suppose this topic must of been deemed worthy by our overlords. Is froderik's bla bla bla image an insult though?
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All kids sent to programs are innocent, ask any fornits poster.
Innocent or not, they don't deserve to be abused and it certainly doesn't help them if they are 'troubled'. The fact is that the kid has no due process, so yes...a lot of "innocent" kids do end up in programs.
Just like prisons are full of innocent people, when you ask them why they are in jail. I was never abused in a program, and I was very troubled and needed the help. I also lied about the reasons why I was there, and acted like I had no idea, and I was the victim. That's was just a pity me act to manipulate people, though.
That doesn't address in any way what I said. Would you like to try again? Whether or not a kid is "innocent" has no bearing on their right to not be abused. If a kid does have "issues", placing them into an abusive program isn't going to help. Again, the fact is that a kid who's parents are considering sending them to one of the though-reform camps doesn't have any due process, so yes, many "innocent" kids do end up in abusive programs.
Well I can only speak for myself, I don't have the ability to channel other people's experiences and speak for them, as you seem adept at doing. If you are going by what other kids told you in the program, or even after it, I am simply making a point that I lied to everybody about the real reasons I was sent away, to make myself appear as the victim. If I'm being completely honest then I would have to explain all the bad things I did to end up in a program, and that might make programs look less bad, and I might appear that I actually needed or deserved a strict program. I was not innocent, and I had issues and I wasn't abused, that's my story. I'm kind of curious though, do you consider every single program abusive? I find it hard to believe every program in existence today is equivalent to the one you went to decades ago. Do you think all kids are abused in wilderness programs today? What about Benchmark, what do you find abusive about that adult facility?
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Regardless of so-called innocence or guilt, I think Anne's points are the more important ones:
Whether or not a kid is "innocent" has no bearing on their right to not be abused.
If a kid does have "issues", placing them into an abusive program isn't going to help.
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I had smoked some pot and drank some beer before being placed in Straight inc. I was 15 and was pretty "innocent" I guess. Many things were going on in my life that my parents didn't want to take responsibility for. My parents had recently divorced at that time. Mother had gotten remarried to an asshole with 3 kids of his own now hanging around the house i grew up in. I had been shifted from school to school for 4 years previously and despite that was usually an A student. BTW the shifting school situation was not due to anything on my part. My parents lived in different districts and we tried a couple of private schools before my parents decided they couldn't afford them and put me back in public school. Well I landed 10th grade in a school I fuckin hated and started looking for somewhere to fit in. Within a short period of time I was hangin with the "hoods" as we were called then. Yes I was smokin weed, had a few beers and started making bad grades. Parents, if your kids are doing this They Do Not Need A Program! You need to do your job and stop looking for somebody else to take the responsibility off your hands. Sending a kid to a program for this type of behavior is like fighting fire with Nuclear Weapons. Yeah I think there are plenty of "innocent" kids in programs right now. Plenty.
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Regardless of so-called innocence or guilt, I think Anne's points are the more important ones:
Whether or not a kid is "innocent" has no bearing on their right to not be abused.
If a kid does have "issues", placing them into an abusive program isn't going to help.
Thank you!!! It seems Max-IT always manages to conveniently overlook the salient points.
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Regardless of so-called innocence or guilt, I think Anne's points are the more important ones:
Whether or not a kid is "innocent" has no bearing on their right to not be abused.
If a kid does have "issues", placing them into an abusive program isn't going to help.
Thank you!!! It seems Max-IT always manages to conveniently overlook the salient points.
Not exactly, these points are just irrelevant to someone going through a program that is not abused, which is a large percentage of the kids, and by far the majority. In fornits land, every kid who goes to a program is "abused", but go talk to people in a different environment than fornits and you'll learn that is not accurate. Fornits takes the position that all programs are abusive, and all the kids in the program are innocent. I know this isn't true, and increasing your font size isn't going to make it any more true. I was placed in what is considered on fornits to be an abusive program. I wasn't innocent, and in the end they saved my life. That's my experience, I'm not basing this off what I read on fornits.
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Yes, I consider every single program that uses an LGAT model on teens against their will to be abusive. This kind of treatment is flagrantly unethical and extremely harmful to a kids ability to grow into a healthy adult. Being a teenager is hard enough without a forced nervous breakdown and years of identity crisis. Whatever a child may be "guilty" of, this is a blatant violation of human rights and therefore not a valid punishment.
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Yes, I consider every single program that uses an LGAT model on teens against their will to be abusive. This kind of treatment is flagrantly unethical and extremely harmful to a kids ability to grow into a healthy adult. Being a teenager is hard enough without a forced nervous breakdown and years of identity crisis. Whatever a child may be "guilty" of, this is a blatant violation of human rights and therefore not a valid punishment.
So even though many kids go through programs with an LGAT model and don't consider themselves abused, you will make that distinction for them? I was never forced to have a nervous breakdown and did not suffer from an identity crisis. I was never abused in any way, and I needed to be kept away from my life at home to save my life. I think we should let people decide for themselves whether or not they were abused, instead of putting that blanket over an entire industry, when it's obviously not true.
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Stockholm Syndrome? Or just a liar who was never in a program? Or who is still in one? Parent desperately trying to justify their actions? Can't decide which is you Max.
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Stockholm Syndrome? Or just a liar who was never in a program? Or who is still in one? Parent desperately trying to justify their actions? Can't decide which is you Max.
That's up to the reader to decide, not me. I can't tell other people what to think, all I can do is post about my own experiences. What people choose to do with that information is up to them. I know it helps people's warped versions of reality to dismiss what I say, so if that makes it easier for you, join the club. Plenty of people think I'm fake already, you wouldn't be the first.
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All kids sent to programs are innocent, ask any fornits poster.
Innocent or not, they don't deserve to be abused and it certainly doesn't help them if they are 'troubled'. The fact is that the kid has no due process, so yes...a lot of "innocent" kids do end up in programs.
Interesting thread....... I think we can all agree that no one deserves to be abused. I think we can also agree that kids are abused everywhere inside and outside of programs. The statement "That all kids sent to programs are innocent" is a false perception that we see being fed the readers here on fornits in my opinion.
What is this "Due Process" that people think kids are being denied. Where is this defined and stated? My daughter and I never had to go through this when my daughter was placed into her program. Are there states that require some type of hearing?
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The statement "That all kids sent to programs are innocent" is a false perception that we see being fed the readers here on fornits in my opinion.
The only person I saw saying that was Max, with the possible exception of Psy who stated that people are "innocent until proven guilty". The fact that you twist it into "Fornits says" is typical.
What is this "Due Process" that people think kids are being denied. Where is this defined and stated? My daughter and I never had to go through this when my daughter was placed into her program. Are there states that require some type of hearing?
There should be. It shouldn't be that easy to lock someone away for years at a time, against their will, isolating them from all they know and employing mind control techniques on them (LGATs). There should be some due process before locking a child away for years at a time. Let's face it....not all parents motives are altruistic. Most are, but most are also easily led to believe that they're kids are receiving actual therapy. Most are also in a vulnerable state and those little questionnaires that programs have on their websites are designed to scare the parents into believing that their kids need to be sent away.
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What is this "Due Process" that people think kids are being denied. Where is this defined and stated? My daughter and I never had to go through this when my daughter was placed into her program. Are there states that require some type of hearing?
There should be. It shouldn't be that easy to lock someone away for years at a time, against their will, isolating them from all they know and employing mind control techniques on them (LGATs). There should be some due process before locking a child away for years at a time. Let's face it....not all parents motives are altruistic. Most are, but most are also easily led to believe that they're kids are receiving actual therapy. Most are also in a vulnerable state and those little questionnaires that programs have on their websites are designed to scare the parents into believing that their kids need to be sent away.
There are many laws that I would like to be passed. I would like to see a third party sign off on all placements, but this isnt in place yet. People talk about "Due Process" like it is something that parents deny their children. It doesnt exist, parents are not denying their kids anything. If the majority of people really feel that kids should have their day in court then this would be law already, but we live in a democracy and we all need to abide by the rules.
Posters need to stop blaming the parents because of the present laws that are presently put in place.
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What is this "Due Process" that people think kids are being denied. Where is this defined and stated? My daughter and I never had to go through this when my daughter was placed into her program. Are there states that require some type of hearing?
There should be. It shouldn't be that easy to lock someone away for years at a time, against their will, isolating them from all they know and employing mind control techniques on them (LGATs). There should be some due process before locking a child away for years at a time. Let's face it....not all parents motives are altruistic. Most are, but most are also easily led to believe that they're kids are receiving actual therapy. Most are also in a vulnerable state and those little questionnaires that programs have on their websites are designed to scare the parents into believing that their kids need to be sent away.
There are many laws that I would like to be passed. I would like to see a third party sign off on all placements, but this isnt in place yet. People talk about "Due Process" like it is something that parents deny their children. It doesnt exist, parents are not denying their kids anything. If the majority of people really feel that kids should have their day in court then this would be law already, but we live in a democracy and we all need to abide by the rules.
Posters need to stop blaming the parents because of the present laws that are presently put in place.
Yeah, I know.....as you've told me before, kids don't have any rights.
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Yeah, I know.....as you've told me before, kids don't have any rights.
Exactly, and that isn't my fault, yours or the programs. Its the way the laws are structured in this country. If we want kids to have more rights then we all need to get out and vote and change the present laws, not sit back and point fingers. I think we can all agree here.
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Yeah, I know.....as you've told me before, kids don't have any rights.
Exactly, and that isn't my fault, yours or the programs. Its the way the laws are structured in this country. If we want kids to have more rights then we all need to get out and vote and change the present laws, not sit back and point fingers. I think we can all agree here.
No, kids actually do have rights but they need parents responsible enough to enforce them. Obviously you chose not to protect yours.
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Yeah, I know.....as you've told me before, kids don't have any rights.
Exactly, and that isn't my fault, yours or the programs. Its the way the laws are structured in this country. If we want kids to have more rights then we all need to get out and vote and change the present laws, not sit back and point fingers. I think we can all agree here.
No, kids actually do have rights but they need parents responsible enough to enforce them. Obviously you chose not to protect yours.
Well, then tell us the "due process" laws for children in your state. Can you provide a link? What needs to be done, laws to be met, prior to placing a child? What rights do they have along the lines of "Due process"?
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Yeah, I know.....as you've told me before, kids don't have any rights.
Exactly, and that isn't my fault, yours or the programs. Its the way the laws are structured in this country. If we want kids to have more rights then we all need to get out and vote and change the present laws, not sit back and point fingers. I think we can all agree here.
No, kids actually do have rights but they need parents responsible enough to enforce them. Obviously you chose not to protect yours.
Well, then tell us the "due process" laws for children in your state. Can you provide a link? What needs to be done, laws to be met, prior to placing a child? What rights do they have along the lines of "Due process"?
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Gee Whooter - you must really hate children to get all worked up like this! Why are you
so adamant that children shouldn't have rights protecting them from being abused?
What's your stake in all this?
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Gee Whooter - you must really hate children to get all worked up like this! Why are you
so adamant that children shouldn't have rights protecting them from being abused?
What's your stake in all this?
Lol, no you are reading emotion into it. I am not upset at all. I never mentioned that children should not have any rights. In fact I think they should have more rights than they do. I believe there should be a mandatory third party sign off for all placements into programs.
But I read here so often that kids are denied “Due Process” and I don’t understand where this comes from. Where are these laws that are being denied? I have never seen any nor has anyone provided a link. As far as I know the parents make all the decisions for their children until a certain age. Kids cant go to court and fight against being potty trained or fight against being forced to use a floride toothpaste. The parents have full control there is no denying of “Due Process” that I can see.
SOS, Do you see my point of view and what points I am questioning?
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Re: Innocence or guilt of Program Kids
Postby Anne Bonney » Yesterday, 2:12 pm
Ursus wrote:Regardless of so-called innocence or guilt, I think Anne's points are the more important ones:
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Anne Bonney wrote:Whether or not a kid is "innocent" has no bearing on their right to not be abused.
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Anne Bonney wrote:If a kid does have "issues", placing them into an abusive program isn't going to help.
Thank you!!! It seems Max-IT always manages to conveniently overlook the salient points.
"It seems Max-IT always manages to conveniently overlook the salient points".
No I don't believe he was at all, I think Ursus and yourself skipped over his point that kids are doing alot of bad things and are placing themselves in situations that are difficult for there parents and society to deal with.
You decided to tail off on a topic or point of, "no one deserves abuse" that is not relevant here. Maybe both of you just have nothing to say on this topic.
Kids are guilty of doing many bad things and it is troublesome for their parents. Parents anguish over what to do and whether we like it or not some just can not handle the duties. So they start looking else where for help. Many parents find great help right in their own communities, others have to look further out. This thread is not about abusing anyone but there is a level of responsibility placed on the child to become more attentive to his actions. There in lies the punishment for bad decisions, just like restrictions placed on children that misbehave.
No I would never send my child to a rehab or TC strictly as a form of punishment only to be abused while in one of these programs, jesus the horror within that decision and the mindfuck placed on this child.
OK, that being said there is still responsibility that has to be dealt with.
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Does people talking about being abused in programs disrespect those of us who had our lives saved? When people only focus on the negative experiences, doesn't that take away from the fact so many of us had good experiences in programs? This is the type of logic I hear directed my way all the time, I wonder how people would answer it, if it were turned around and aimed back at them.