Fornits
General Interest => Open Free for All => Topic started by: Maximilian on September 04, 2010, 02:58:55 PM
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I want to introduce an idea to this debate and see what everyone thinks about it. There seems to be a lot of distrust of AA here, and many posters here seem to ridicule the people who go to AA and call them names like "stepcrafters" (never heard that before fornits). Some posters here seem to think they have the answer to the problem of addiction, that addiction is really just a "bad habit" and people are powerful enough to quit whenever they wish. But AA teaches people they are powerless, which ends up harming those people by making them think they will be addicted forever.
Well I can tell you as someone who has dealt with addiction, that it is a disease that lasts forever. There is no cure, and you never get over it. People that say otherwise are usually selling something, or have no experience with addiction themselves or with family members. The reason defending AA on fornits can feel like a waste of time, is because AA is already a success. Fornits posters opinions about AA is not going to impact the organization in any way, whether we condemn it or rally for it.
I've been through many different forms of drug treatment, over the years. So far every single treatment center I've gone to had some form of AA meetings, and recovery ideas adopted within their treatment system. The only facility I've been at that did not use AA in any way, is the private program I went to that has its own subforum here, they never mentioned anything related to AA even once. They actually believed in the ideology Psy tells people here, that we are all powerful people in charge of our choices, and being powerless is not an idea to embrace. According to the program we could choose to quit, and choose to be an addict or not. Now I have admitted that this program saved my life, and that's true, but I disagree with their philosophy about life being a series of choices. Some things in our lives are and always be out of our control, like addiction.
So lucky for me, I never experienced a warped version of AA inside of an abusive program, perhaps that is why I don't feel ill will towards AA. My experience has always been voluntary, even if my stays in treatment centers was involuntary, they never forced us to participate in meetings, or read the big books. I had good and bad experiences in all these various treatment facilities, but one thing that was always positive was the AA/NA meetings. People from NA would actually come from "the outside" and volunteer their time to hold meetings inside the treatment center. They were always very nice and kind, and it was helpful to talk to people who went through what you are going through, rather than people who are well meaning but don't understand some of the things you say to them.
I went to a lot of meetings outside of treatment centers as well, and they were also very positive experiences. I was dealing with a lot of issues and had serious problems and they were nothing but open, accepting, nonjudgmental and always offered me more help than I could have possibly accepted. Sometimes their helpfulness was overwhelming because so many people would offer to help, or give you their number to call. It was clear, they were people who cared about you, and did not want to see you fall back into addiction, and end up dead or in jail like so many people with serious addictions do.
AA/NA and it's various groups are a large population of people, probably in the millions. Many different groups of people with various issues have adopted the AA model to form support groups for their own problems, more proof that many people think the AA model is effective for them. The treatment centers I was in that adopted AA as part of their treatment program, were run by highly educated mental health professionals. Are we to believe that everyone from the treatment center employees, down to the person attending their community AA meeting is brainwashed, and part of a cult that works against their own interests? Common sense suggests that is highly unlikely.
Perhaps AA/NA do work, and that is why treatment centers have invited them in, and so many different groups have decided to form their own version of anonymous support groups. Everytime a meeting occurs, people vote with their attendance, if AA did not help these people they would not show up, because they have no obligation to. Yet people continue to go. I've met people with 50 year sobriety chips, and I'd ask it's been so long why do you still come? They'd explain to me that they are still an alcoholic, and even 50 years later even one drink could lead them down the dark path that led them to AA in the first place. This supports the idea that addiction is a disease rather than a choice.
The idea that drug or alcohol addiction is a choice, is nothing short of insulting. Addiction is a serious medical issue. There are experiments using monkeys with drugs like cocaine, and given a choice of cocaine or food they choose to use cocaine and starve to death. Is that their "choice"? Perhaps, if you take a cold hearted, black and white position on the matter. But what most people see is that the chemical changes the chemistry of the person to a degree, they make unhealthy choices to support their addiction, even if it costs them their own lives. Fornits posters think you should just ignore a person dealing with such serious addiction issues, and tell them "just quit, it's your choice". But other people like AA know it's a lot more complicated than that, and a long, long battle for some people, and choose to offer them a support group made up of people who also went through similar experiences. Only somebody who hasn't dealt with serious addiction could dismiss the life destroying cycle of addiction as a "choice", it simply is not accurate.
All of the people who willingly show up at AA/NA meetings going on across the country today, choose to go because something about AA works for them. Maybe you might not understand why, or how it works for them. But does that make you right, and them wrong? Is such a large group of people who willingly make that choice to attend a meeting, a cult? No, of course not. But it's an easy way to dismiss what they are saying, and the hard reality that addiction is a serious disease.
Fornits, on the other hand, is a relatively minuscule population compared to amount of people participating in AA. I think everybody can accept that fact. The few people who make fornits a regular part of their lives, were abused or had negative experiences in programs as underage youths. Some of these programs used a warped version of AA that resembles nothing of the AA in the free world. Fornits takes a extreme political position regarding treatment, in that many posters here think treatment in any form is wrong. That is not a mainstream position. Go talk to regular everyday people who don't read fornits about AA, drug treatment centers, or teen programs. Most people actually support these kind of treatment options, and most people know somebody who went to AA, or had serious addiction issues like a friend of family member.
Fornits is a political conversation. Nowhere else could somebody make such a long argument against AA and be considered mainstream other than the internet, I'm sorry but this is true. Most people see it as a legitimate organization. Finding people with similar views on the internet allows groups to form their own version of reality, which can be a lot different from the world most people live in. On fornits it's a world where all programs are conspiring to hurt as many teens as possible and AA is a cult brainwashing people with dangerous thoughts. If I never experienced programs, or AA I might be inclined to believe it, people here make some good arguments to suggest so. But I know that reality is a lot different than fornits reality, and it's not so black and white as people here like to portray it. Good things happen in "bad" programs, we might not like to admit it, but it's true. AA is good thing, I'm sorry but this is true. I have yet to hear a reason why people here are so against AA, other than they think "it doesn't work".
So I am here to suggest that AA is not the cult. It is fornits, with it's extreme anti treatment opinions and agenda that is truly the cult. Fornits anti treatment ideology is based on a select number of experiences, reinforced with a forum designed to focus solely on these negative experiences. When in reality, the people posting on fornits compared to the number who went to programs is relatively insignificant, people here take these limited number of experiences and use them to paint the entire industry with blood. Posters here are reluctant to admit that anybody could possibly be helped by programs, even though many have come here to say just that. They are dismissed as brainwashed, or as a liar. Like in any extremist political environment, people are in a sort of competition to out extreme each other. Who can oppose treatment the most? This is where Aa comes in, it's not related to the troubled teen industry in any way. Yet because it represents a form of treatment, something this forum is against, then it too must be condemned and intellectual arguments made to support this must be constructed.
In the end though, it doesn't matter that fornits opposes AA, they will survive and thrive like they always have. Fornits on the other hand seems to be getting slower over time, and less people are comfortable with the extremist anti treatment ideology here. AA is based on openness, and helping people. Fornits is now based on censoring and threatening inconvenient opinions, and telling people what to think. You can say whatever you want in an AA meeting and people will listen and not challenge you. Unlike fornits is you dare suggest you had a positive experience in a program, you will be trolled with disgusting pictures, called a liar and be presented with countless conspiracy theories about "who you really are". Fornits is paranoid, close minded and has an ideology built on the faulty foundation of generalizations and self centerednes. AA is exactly the opposite, they are open, and has an ideology built upon the foundation of the experiences of many alcoholics and addicts that collectively make up the organization.
Imagine you are an alcoholic/ addict. You might have made choices the first few times you used, but eventually you lost control and you finally had the realization about what people meant when they say addiction is a disease. You lose your job, your family, your house, all because you can't stop using. Then someone comes up and offers you help. Come to our group of people who went through what you did, and we will listen and not judge you. We want to help you recover and regain the life you had once before. They offer you help, a sober living place, and phone number to call when you feel like using, and tell you can call 24/7. These people who didn't know you, help you after your family and everybody else you knew dismissed you as a problematic alcoholic/addict. How would that make you feel?
But now imagine, you come to fornits and ask for advice. You explain that you lost everything because you are an alcoholic/addict and don't know how to help yourself. Then a red titled poster (must be the cult leader) shows up and tells you that everything in your life is a choice. You chose to lose your family, your home, and all your friends because you chose to be a alcoholic and drug addict. You have a bad habit, which you chose, and you can simply choose to stop using alcohol or drugs, if you really wanted to. You are not powerless over your addiction, you are in full control and the solution to all your problems is just to choose not to be an alcoholic or drug addict anymore. How would this make you feel?
If you can empathize with someone truly suffering from addiction, what option of help would you choose? Which would be more helpful to you, as a person? The answer is why fornits will remain a small, extremist cult of ideas, and AA will remain a successful, large community supported organization . Because one is true, and helpful. The other is insulting, and not helpful. But lucky for us fornits is just a discussion forum, and the extremist rhetoric posted on this forum has no impact on the real world of AA and the people who choose to attend. There is a small group of people who post here who think that AA is a bad organization and should be avoided. But there are millions who make up meetings across the world every day, and as a silent majority they are not represented in fornits reality. But let's look at the big picture, AA will be around for a long time to come. Fornits? Probably not so much.
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Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
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HHHHHHhhhhhhmmmmmm..............nope. Still none of your business.
Sweet Cheeks!!!!!!!!WoW....... ::OMG:: ::OMG::
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But now imagine, you come to fornits and ask for advice. You explain that you lost everything because you are an alcoholic/addict and don't know how to help yourself. Then a red titled poster (must be the cult leader) shows up and tells you that everything in your life is a choice. You chose to lose your family, your home, and all your friends because you chose to be a alcoholic and drug addict. You have a bad habit, which you chose, and you can simply choose to stop using alcohol or drugs, if you really wanted to. You are not powerless over your addiction, you are in full control and the solution to all your problems is just to choose not to be an alcoholic or drug addict anymore. How would this make you feel?
Hopefully like a complete asshole, which is exactly what this sort of person is. Only a complete asshole drinks their life away to this extent. Fuck em and the horse the rode in on if they are going to get even a drop of pity from me for being so poorly in control of themselves that they can't stop boozing long enough to remember they have damn family.
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Max, If you want to drag all of your problems through your whole life like a ball and chain, go right ahead. I have found it easier to stop having those problems and just start living a different kind of life. You don't have to trade a drug addiction for an NA addiction. I was a heroin addict for almost 20 years, I have some experience with addiction. Keep coming back.
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The premise of this topic is absurd.
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The cult calling the kettle black.[attachment=0:3tu91wkf]SCION.jpg[/attachment:3tu91wkf]
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What if AA is mainstream and Fornits is the cult?
Very Plausable,and an interesting topic
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I thought the comparison between humans and lab monkeys was absurd on its face as well.
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There is no doubt that AA is mainstream. Most ordinary people think of it as the place to refer loved ones with addictions. There are also people for who this forum is like a self imposed cult in that they seem to spend all of their leisure time here thus precluding the time for outside interests or friends.
But because something is mainstream or supported by the establishment does not mean that it cant get cult like. Some chapters of AA are like this. People have told me that their individual branch has not been like this at all and I am happy with taking their word for it. But that does not mean i want to go.
I also dispute the idea that you have a disease Maximillian but i am not saying this just to be mean to you. i don't doubt that it can sometimes be a real struggle to stay away from whatever your vices are, but talk to any formerly overweight person or reformed smoker and you will find that the struggle is not dissimilar whether it is cancer sticks or chocolate. The difference is that with some stronger drugs the price of taking them is maybe higher. In fact I would argue that the disease idea can make things harder. If you tell yourself that you have a lifelong illness what you are really saying is that you cant truly kick a habit, or that you need to replace it with another (like 12 steps).
This is not to say that it is easy. Or to say that the reasons why anybody starts to abuse drugs in the first place are simple. Or that initially anyone with a bad drug habit should not seek some kind of medical advice and assistance. But isnt the whole point of 12 steps that it is self help based and non professional? If this is the case how can it logically be argued that on one hand addiction is a disease but on the other hand only a self help group can cure it. Nobody with cancer would *just* go to a support group. They would also and primarily see an oncologist and get a medical solution.
I would also not say that we are completely responsible for the things that happen to us. But isn't that also the mentality that most personal growth seminars adopted by emotional growth schools espouse? That everybody is 100 percent responsible for all of their actions.
Alternatively you can look at it from the perspective of a bad habit that you used to indulge in. But now you are no longer the guy who does that. it is not a disease it is a life choice that you make. In the same way that you are not a criminal so make the choice not to steal. Or you are not an asshole so you make the choice to treat people with respect.
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What if AA is mainstream and Fornits is the cult?
Very Plausable,and an interesting topic
Fornits doesn't fit a single one of Singer's 6 conditions (http://http://www.factnet.org/Margaret_Thaler_Singer/6_Conditions_for_Thought_Reform.html) or Lifton's 8 criteria (http://http://www.rickross.com/reference/brainwashing/brainwashing19.html) for thought reform.
Fornits is simply a forum for discussion. The people here share a wide variety of opinions. It's freer than pretty much any forum or private establishment out there. No cults or cult-like groups will allow you to come onto their property and insult the group incessantly, yet that's exactly what's allowed here. 99.9% of the internet's forums, including 4chan, have more active moderation than Fornits.
1. If Fornits is a cult, who would be the leader?
2. If Fornits is a cult, how does it control it's members?
3. If Fornits is a cult, why does it tolerate all viewpoints (even though individual members may not respect them).
If Fornits were a cult Ginger and I would ban Danny Benisson. We would ban SUCK IT / Max. We would ban TheWho. We would ban anybody who didn't either tow the party line or we felt we couldn't convert. We would have secret forums, most likely with secret teachings or secret ideologies. We would pressure our members to report on each other and confess their darkest sins to a central authority. We would need a way to control people's time and communication so we would need to find a way to isolate a person from all outside criticism.
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:karma:
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Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
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I think it's amusing how the admins of this forum can remain so deeply in denial. It's sort of like they maintain a playground here. They pay the rent, they keep the jungle gym nice and shiny, and provide some balls for four square games. They post a sign saying this playground is open to everybody, come and play and enjoy it. It starts off ok, some families and people from the neighborhood come and play a game of ball, or on the jungle gym. But then a gang of people show up at the playground and go around yelling at people in their faces and holding up pictures of disgusting things. They follow the other people at the playground around, and yell and scream and threaten them. Some of the gang even follows them home, and harasses them there. But this playground still has it's sign out, welcoming everybody, even though nobody other than the gang comes anymore to play, just to avoid the dramatic confrontations and intimidation. Everyone else chooses to go to a different playground, one's with rules and not just hollow idealistic signage that holds no weight whatsoever. I then go up to one of these immature gang members squatting on this supposedly free playground, and they say to me "this is OUR playground", I say "no it's not" and point over to the sign, and they look at me confused, unaware the sign ever even existed, and continue on with their ways oblivious to it's meaning.
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I think it's amusing how the admins of this forum can remain so deeply in denial. It's sort of like they maintain a playground here. They pay the rent, they keep the jungle gym nice and shiny, and provide some balls for four square games. They post a sign saying this playground is open to everybody, come and play and enjoy it. It starts off ok, some families and people from the neighborhood come and play a game of ball, or on the jungle gym. But then a gang of people show up at the playground and go around yelling at people in their faces and holding up pictures of disgusting things. They follow the other people at the playground around, and yell and scream and threaten them. Some of the gang even follows them home, and harasses them there. But this playground still has it's sign out, welcoming everybody, even though nobody other than the gang comes anymore to play, just to avoid the dramatic confrontations and intimidation. Everyone else chooses to go to a different playground, one's with rules and not just hollow idealistic signage that holds no weight whatsoever. I then go up to one of these immature gang members squatting on this supposedly free playground, and they say to me "this is OUR playground", I say "no it's not" and point over to the sign, and they look at me confused, unaware the sign ever even existed, and continue on with their ways oblivious to it's meaning.
So why are you here? Which gang's colors are you representing? (as if the Bill W. patch and "12 & 12" tattoo wasn't a dead giveaway).
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Max, do you also go down to the Holocaust Museum and tell all the folks you find there that most Nazis were actually very generous, caring people?
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Max, do you also go down to the Holocaust Museum and tell all the folks you find there that most Nazis were actually very generous, caring people?
How creative and unique, comparing the troubled teen industry and AA to the holocaust, and the people who work for them to Nazis. Surely this makes perfect sense to a fornits extremist, but this type of emotional propaganda used in an attempt to shame people into silence, will not work with me. I have experienced a so called abusive program, and I wasn't abused. I went to AA and wasn't brainwashed and met some of the best people in my life. But expressing these views on fornits, an open free for all forum welcoming all opinions relating to the treatment industry, is akin to telling holocaust victims that Nazis are nice guys. Sure, that makes perfect sense, what a logical comparison I'm surprised nobody here has made it before. Perhaps you should put out a memo that we "survivors" should now refer to the programs we went to as concentration camps, instead of gulags. It brings up a little more emotion, don't you think? Who cares about accuracy of the comparison, or the diminishing the true suffering Jews went through, let's milk this propaganda for everything it's worth, what do you say?
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How creative and unique, comparing the troubled teen industry and AA to the holocaust, and the people who work for them to Nazis. Surely this makes perfect sense to a fornits extremist, but this type of emotional propaganda used in an attempt to shame people into silence, will not work with me. I have experienced a so called abusive program, and I wasn't abused. I went to AA and wasn't brainwashed and met some of the best people in my life. But expressing these views on fornits, an open free for all forum welcoming all opinions relating to the treatment industry, is akin to telling holocaust victims that Nazis are nice guys. Sure, that makes perfect sense, what a logical comparison I'm surprised nobody here has made it before. Perhaps you should put out a memo that we "survivors" should now refer to the programs we went to as concentration camps, instead of gulags. It brings up a little more emotion, don't you think? Who cares about accuracy of the comparison, or the diminishing the true suffering Jews went through, let's milk this propaganda for everything it's worth, what do you say?
You're missing the point of what he's saying. He's saying you're coming here to a forum where people were abused by X entity and saying those people at X entity were actually quite nice to you... and apart from being a WWASP program you refuse to answer any questions about it. All you say is "the program saved my life".
Hardly a week goes by without you starting a new thread about it. Here's one from a week or so ago, entitled "How a program saved my life (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30992)". You're not talking about AA. You're talking about WWASP. You just support AA because you know that this is an unmoderated forum and inevitably others here will attack it and that will make them look "crazy" to outsiders, tainting all other criticism coming from the same "side" of the argument. Truth is there are many sides to the argument here. There are those who support AA who would never, ever, support WWASP. EVER. You're just about the only person I know who will defend WWASP. I've never even seen Whooter do it.
Furthermore, you made up a story about being "blackmailed" to make the forum look bad. You denied it until you asked for proof. When that was presented you feigned outrage. After a while you started claiming it was satire (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30992&start=15#p375447). How is anybody to believe you were in a program at all? If you read around this link (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30992&start=15#p375480), there is considerable evidence to suggest you were never in a program at all.
Hell. I'm not going to bother retyping what I did before.
I am free to post satire if I want, it's not against the rules here. Neither is posting under another username. It's obvious that thread bothered you a lot. I think it was so over the top, it was obviously tongue in cheek and most people figured that out on the first page.
Satire? Let's let the readers decide You made very clear and very serious allegations of fact. You first wrote:
I am taking an indefinite break from fornits starting from this point. It has been made clear to me via email and text message that somebody here is not happy with my opinions and is threatening to fax my posts about drug use and suicide to my boss, which they confirmed they know who it is. I am a new employee and this drama would likely end in me being fired, and unfortunately I cannot take this chance at this point in my life. I have stated my opinions, and you know how I truly feel. I was instructed to post this thread titled "I am a bitch" and to confirm that I am really a program parent pretending to be a troubled teen because I'm brainwashed. Well I did it, but I will not leave without an explanation. I know you are reading this. I did what you asked, if you have any semblance of a soul you will let this end now. If I get fired it's not just my life that will be ruined, people depend on me. I'd ask that all my posts are deleted but I know they have already been copied. So long, fornits.
Turns out there was no blackmail. You created PosterX to scare others off. Satire? When I did this, you disappeared (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30972&start=75#p374801). Probably took you a while to come up with a way out... So you decided to "stand up for free speech" despite fictional risks to your job and changed your story to this:
This thread documents the failed attempt to blackmail me into silence. This is a common occurrence on this forum, beware releasing personal information to people here, say the wrong thing, and that info might be used against you.
I don't see the satire. You made serious false allegations. If your arguments "stand on your own" then why the need to defame others who disagree with you. You know damn well what you did. Why should anybody believe you when you say you were in a program. Apart from you claiming it was a WWASP program there are no other details... probably because a good portion of WWASP schools got shut down by the authorities and the other half caved in to bad PR.
If you went to SCLA, chances are you were at some point locked in the hobbit (http://http://www.wwaspsinfo.net/springcreek/hobbit.jpg). If you went to TB maybe Jay Kay or Randall Hinton pepper sprayed you (http://http://www.fornits.com/WWASP/TranquilityBayDocumentary.mp4) until you got chemical burns. How about the dog cages at High Impact (http://http://www.wwaspsinfo.net/highimpact/highimpactkids.html). Even the mexicans were appalled. Everybody from the FTC to the State Department has said "stay the hell away". Montana PBS did their own documentary (http://http://watch.montanapbs.org/video/1430387622/) (covers a good few WWASP programs). Is THAT how they saved your life. TELL ME. You claim they saved you life then I want to hear more than pathetic anecdote. I want to hear you describe what they had to do to break you down and I want to hear you justify it. I want to hear you justify the beatings. Don't lie to me and say it did't happen because in EVERY single WWASP program there has been documented and often well publicized abuse. Tell me how beating you down and training you like a dog was justified. Tell me why it was necessary!
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Was Max / SUCK IT actually in a program?
By the way. I do answer good faith questions from people who are respectful.
You don't seem to be answering questions from anybody at all.
Two people have asked questions so far. You and Joel. I answered Joel. You showed me your agenda yesterday when you broke your own rules and released my personal info against my wishes,
I posted no personal information of yours and you expressly indicated that I did exactly what you wanted me to do, what you admitted quite clearly was your desire (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30972&p=375193#p375193)to have done: post proof that you fabricated the blackmail story (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30972&start=180#p375171). Not to bring it up again but did you or did you not desire to have me post proof. Consider your statements such as "I was hoping for this precise outcome" and "Post your proof I'm posterX, I'm waiting." You're a liar. Nothing more, and because you are a liar about that I do not believe the rest of your story. I do not believe you were in a program. You claim you will not answer questions but since there is no rational reason not to, I believe you cannot. You can call us crazy conspiracy theorists like you did last time when people suspected you were PosterX, comparing it to Obama's birth certificate. They were right back then despite your whooping and hollering and chances are, they're right now too.
so I know you aren't asking in good faith. Perhaps in time, I might trust you enough to answer your questions, if you can prove to me with your posts from now on that you are in fact interested in hearing another perspective on what happens in programs. Most people here are openly hostile to this idea, of an open free for all discussion, your actions yesterday also took away from this claim. I'll post what I feel like, and answer questions when I feel like it. Like I said, I don't care what people think about me here. I'm not pushing any agenda, don't you think if I was pushing WWASP programs I'd link to them, or talk about specifics?
No, I don't, because specifics are generally very easy to refute in the case of well known programs like WWASP. There is video tape of Randall Hinton admitting he pepper sprays kids repeatedly into compliance. There is testimony of a parent who came unannounced and saw a kid duct taped to a chair (in a US based program). There is consierable evidence of abuse at Spring Creek Lodge and corruption with the local authorities as documented in the PBS documentary, Who's Watching the kids (http://http://watch.montanapbs.org/video/1430387622/). There is video tape, taken by the mexican authorities and given to Inside Edition of kids tied down in the sun in dog cages at High Impact. There is mountains of sworn testimony. There is the ex-director of Dundee Ranch in Costa Rica who came foward as a whistleblower and detailed horiffic accounts of abuse. There are photos of the unsanitary and inhuman isolation rooms. There is solid documentary evidence to connect the Premier Workshops to LifeSpring.
There ample evidence of deceptive marketing practiced, as evidenced on this forum (we've even been spammed by WWASP spambots). There are well documented and supported horror stories for just about every single WWASP program. Kids forced by staff to abuse other kids in the name of their treatment. Unsafe restraints... Even deaths. WWASP is absolutely the easiest to pick apart. The reason you don't mention your program is that you know that as soon as you do i'll pile on the evidence and blow your story full of holes. Just like your earlier games you played on the "boo hoo, somebody blackmailed me" thread, you're stuck, and you don't know how to continue. Your'e used to speaking to the uninformed. Your'e used to speaking to parents who do not know the right questions to ask. You're used to being able to persuade with emotion and the standard "program saved my life" marketing spiel. Solid fact is not something you deal in and when confronted you are incapable of response. That is the reason you do not respond, not out of some feigned offense.
I offend you? You sicken me.
I'm here to tell the truth about my experiences, I'm reluctant to release personal information to a mob of people who are obviously hostile towards me.
Information about a program is not personal information. Cut the manipulation and quit with the "waah... personal information... waah... i'm not answering you... you're a meanie!".
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You're missing the point of what he's saying. He's saying you're coming here to a forum where people were abused by X entity and saying those people at X entity were actually quite nice to you... and apart from being a WWASP program you refuse to answer any questions about it. All you say is "the program saved my life".
So what options do I have then. Should I avoid fornits altogether because some people had negative experiences? This forum invites my opinion, in the very description of it's purpose. I accepted this invitation and choose to post here. Should I not be honest about what I experienced? Should I keep it to myself that I was not abused, and had some good experiences there? Why should I censor myself? If other people's experiences were so horrible, they are free to share with everyone just as I do. Instead of trying to pressure me into silence about what I experienced, perhaps they should focus on what they experienced and share that, because hating on me doesn't take away from the fact that yes, a program that most people here consider abusive, did in fact save my life. It's restrictiveness saved my life, keeping me against my will from my self destructive lifestyle saved me. I'm sorry if that offends people, or people find it unethical. But the real world result is me being alive, so I am belatedly thankful to the program for that.
Hardly a week goes by without you starting a new thread about it. Here's one from a week or so ago, entitled "How a program saved my life (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30992)". You're not talking about AA. You're talking about WWASP. You just support AA because you know that this is an unmoderated forum and inevitably others here will attack it and that will make them look "crazy" to outsiders, tainting all other criticism coming from the same "side" of the argument. Truth is there are many sides to the argument here. There are those who support AA who would never, ever, support WWASP. EVER. You're just about the only person I know who will defend WWASP. I've never even seen Whooter do it.
I don't support AA to make you guys look crazy, believe me, you do that all on your own. I like AA because I had many real life experiences related to it, both NA and AA. I went to several treatment centers besides the one listed on this forum, and attended AA for several years. I share my opinions because that's how I feel, I'm not here trying to manipulate other people into acting crazy. That is not necessary, the crazy is on full display here despite my AA feelings. Everybody has an individual truth. Some people have good program experiences, others have bad. Some people do well in AA, others leave. People here seem unable to make this distinction, and wish to dismiss my opinions altogether. Sorry, but people like me really do exist in real life, it's not a big conspiracy to bring down fornits.
[/b]Furthermore, you made up a story about being "blackmailed" to make the forum look bad. You denied it until you asked for proof. When that was presented you feigned outrage. After a while you started claiming it was satire (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30992&start=15#p375447). How is anybody to believe you were in a program at all? If you read around this link (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30992&start=15#p375480), there is considerable evidence to suggest you were never in a program at all.
Like I said before. I don't need to "make this forum look bad". Blackmailing a family and posting a porn page about them looks bad. Blackmailing Whooter into silence, that looks bad. What I did was a joke, and it lasted less than 2 days. Most posters here have already forgotten about it, new posters will never know about it. Nobody was hurt with my satirical thread, it was fiction. The intimidation and blackmailing going on towards 15 year old girls families, and Whooter, that is very much real. Like I said, I am not necessary in order to discredit the safety of posting here. Had I never posted here, people would still see the blackmailing and threats going on, and act accordingly. I simply choose to point it out, and bring attention to it, in that case with a satirical thread claiming I was being blackmailed. Like I said in another thread, I try to promote discussion rather than stifle it. Isn't that what this place is, a discussion forum? Sometimes it doesn't seem that way.
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Was Max / SUCK IT actually in a program?
Perhaps you can milk that satire thread a bit longer, and use it to discredit me amongst the cult faithful that reside here. I do find it funny that rather than accept the idea that somebody might have a good experience in a program, and admit it saved their life and enjoy AA, that it's easier for your conspiratorial minds to dismiss such a possibility altogether. It's a big conspiracy! He must be Whooter! He must really be a program parent! I'm just someone who is willing to get real, and not be pressured to hold certain views on programs just to fit in with the group.To me, fornits represents a distorted view into the treatment industry, because what I experienced myself does not resemble the rhetoric about gulags and abuse I read here so often. So I choose to share my opinions, and be honest about my own experience. I accepted fornits invitation to this free for all debate welcoming all points of view, if my writing bothers people so much, ignore it and read other threads. There are plenty of threads that talk about how bad programs are here, if that's your taste then feel free to skip over mine, I won't mind at all.
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new posters will never know about it
I'll make sure they know. You are a liar.
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Was Max / SUCK IT actually in a program?
Perhaps you can milk that satire thread a bit longer, and use it to discredit me amongst the cult faithful that reside here. I do find it funny that rather than accept the idea that somebody might have a good experience in a program
In a WWASP program? Sorry. No. I could believe somebody escaped relatively unscathed in some programs, but a good experience... in a WWASP program? Unless you're into S&M, it's just not possible. Especially since you won't answer any questions about the program you were in.
because what I experienced myself does not resemble the rhetoric about gulags and abuse I read here so often.
And yet you won't answer any questions, as the other thread showed. The seminars? Oh? You're sworn to secrecy? And it went on like that.
You claim everybody is entitled to their own truth. No. People are entitled to their own opinions, sure, but not their own facts. There is objective truth. The sea is not made up of cheerios. The sky is not neon green. The authorities shut down WWASP programs because they were abusing kids. Unfortunately they pop back up like mushrooms, no matter how many times they're stomped out.
You were either not in a program or you suffered so much you identify with your captors to the point where you refuse to see what they did to you as abuse. Personally I find the former far, far, more likely because i've never heard of a WWASP survivor holding onto the "program saved my life" spiel for more than a few years after leaving.
No, I don't, because specifics are generally very easy to refute in the case of well known programs like WWASP. There is video tape of Randall Hinton admitting he pepper sprays kids repeatedly into compliance. There is testimony of a parent who came unannounced and saw a kid duct taped to a chair (in a US based program). There is consierable evidence of abuse at Spring Creek Lodge and corruption with the local authorities as documented in the PBS documentary, Who's Watching the kids (http://http://watch.montanapbs.org/video/1430387622/). There is video tape, taken by the mexican authorities and given to Inside Edition of kids tied down in the sun in dog cages at High Impact. There is mountains of sworn testimony. There is the ex-director of Dundee Ranch in Costa Rica who came foward as a whistleblower and detailed horiffic accounts of abuse. There are photos of the unsanitary and inhuman isolation rooms. There is solid documentary evidence to connect the Premier Workshops to LifeSpring.
If you went to SCLA, chances are you were at some point locked in the hobbit (http://http://www.wwaspsinfo.net/springcreek/hobbit.jpg). If you went to TB maybe Jay Kay or Randall Hinton pepper sprayed you (http://http://www.fornits.com/WWASP/TranquilityBayDocumentary.mp4) until you got chemical burns. How about the dog cages at High Impact (http://http://www.wwaspsinfo.net/highimpact/highimpactkids.html). Even the mexicans were appalled. Everybody from the FTC to the State Department has said "stay the hell away". Montana PBS did their own documentary (http://http://watch.montanapbs.org/video/1430387622/) (covers a good few WWASP programs). Is THAT how they saved your life. TELL ME. You claim they saved you life then I want to hear more than pathetic anecdote. I want to hear you describe what they had to do to break you down and I want to hear you justify it. I want to hear you justify the beatings. Don't lie to me and say it did't happen because in EVERY single WWASP program there has been documented and often well publicized abuse. Tell me how beating you down and training you like a dog was justified. Tell me why it was necessary!
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How is anybody to believe you were in a program at all? If you read around this link (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30992&start=15#p375480), there is considerable evidence to suggest you were never in a program at all.
People will believe what they need to here in order to dismiss my opinions altogether without consideration. One of the easiest conspiracy theories giving people this intellectual deniability is suggesting I was never in a program at all. Because it makes perfect sense, somebody who never went to a program would spend their time posting on a forum claiming they had. Or better yet, perhaps I am secretly an agent of the troubled teen industry, and get payed by the word to counteract the great threat to the industry that is fornits. People are free to believe what they want about me, I really could care less. I am not going to jump through hoops to prove myself to the people who post here.
But like I said, people are free to believe what they want. It doesn't bother me in the least if people don't believe me,it really doesn't. Other people's reactions to my opinions vary depending on whether I type it on fornits, or talk to people in real life. The only time I am questioned, attacked and discredited is on fornits. My own experiences won't change whether I type them here, or on my own private blog, and I will never be able to control people's reactions to what I say, nor do I wish to. I will keep posting here even if every single person here thinks I am full of shit, I am comfortable with my own truth and sharing it and will not be bullied into silence.
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In a WWASP program? Sorry. No. I could believe somebody escaped relatively unscathed in some programs, but a good experience... in a WWASP program? Unless you're into S&M, it's just not possible. Especially since you won't answer any questions about the program you were in.
You seem unable to go a couple posts without labeling me a liar, a defamer, etc. But I am also supposed to believe you are interested in having an honest conversation and really interested in hearing why I had positive experiences in a supposedly abusive program? Sorry but I don't believe that. You are interested in political grandstanding, and I will not be your whipping boy. You'll have to find someone else for that, sorry!
And yet you won't answer any questions, as the other thread showed. The seminars? Oh? You're sworn to secrecy? And it went on like that.
You claim everybody is entitled to their own truth. No. People are entitled to their own opinions, sure, but not their own facts. There is objective truth. The sea is not made up of cheerios. The sky is not neon green. The authorities shut down WWASP programs because they were abusing kids. Unfortunately they pop back up like mushrooms, no matter how many times they're stomped out.
I was never abused, or saw anybody abused. That's is my facts, based on my own experiences. Did you go to a WwASP program? Because you seem to know an awful lot of what goes on inside of them, claiming everybody is abused and such. Well I was never abused, I can't speak for other people. But to assume that everybody has a negative experience based on a limited sample here, is not an accurate assumption.
You were either not in a program or you suffered so much you identify with your captors to the point where you refuse to see what they did to you as abuse. Personally I find the former far, far, more likely because i've never heard of a WWASP survivor holding onto the "program saved my life" spiel for more than a few years after leaving.
Ah, so I am somehow incapable of understanding my own experiences and coming to my own conclusions, gotcha. There is a third possibility you leave out, that is that I was a troubled teen desperately in need of strict control away from my life, and it worked. I grew up, and realized it was time to get honest with myself and finally give the program the credit it deserves minus the pity party for myself. Why is this so unbelievable? Only because fornits has created it's own reality, with only two possible outcomes as you describe, when in reality the possibilities are infinite.
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How is anybody to believe you were in a program at all? If you read around this link (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30992&start=15#p375480), there is considerable evidence to suggest you were never in a program at all.
People will believe what they need to here in order to dismiss my opinions altogether without consideration. One of the easiest conspiracy theories giving people this intellectual deniability is suggesting I was never in a program at all.
You called it a conspiracy theory when people started claiming you made the whole Blackmail up. You called it a conspiracy theory when people started claiming you were PosterX. Both of those things turned out to be true. You've cried wolf too many times... and with those exact same words.
Because it makes perfect sense, somebody who never went to a program would spend their time posting on a forum claiming they had.
It's happened many times in the past. People come here claiming to have been in a program and swearing it saved their lives. When asked detailed questions about what the program was like they can't name any. When IPs are checked as one admin (who is not here anymore) used to do, it would be discovered that the messages originated from the program itself. It used to be far more common. There have even been court cases dealing with it. When Lon Woodbury's old forum was ripped apart it was discovered that Sue Scheff had been impersonating many many teens and parents. Stop acting like it's implausible when you already know about these things.
Or better yet, perhaps I am secretly an agent of the troubled teen industry, and get payed by the word to counteract the great threat to the industry that is fornits. People are free to believe what they want about me, I really could care less. I am not going to jump through hoops to prove myself to the people who post here.
You're dismissive. Feigned indignation. Very good.
But like I said, people are free to believe what they want. It doesn't bother me in the least if people don't believe me,it really doesn't. Other people's reactions to my opinions vary depending on whether I type it on fornits, or talk to people in real life. The only time I am questioned, attacked and discredited is on fornits.
Of course, because when most people say "i was a drug addicts and this program saved my life" they have no reason to question it. When you learn that kids come out of the most horrific programs saying the exact same things (only to denounce it later), your perspective starts to change, especially when you understand thought reform.
My own experiences won't change whether I type them here, or on my own private blog, and I will never be able to control people's reactions to what I say, nor do I wish to. I will keep posting here even if every single person here thinks I am full of shit, I am comfortable with my own truth and sharing it and will not be bullied into silence.
You're sharing your opinions, not your "truth". Actually, there's a good deal of false statement of fact in there as well.
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But now imagine, you come to fornits and ask for advice. You explain that you lost everything because you are an alcoholic/addict and don't know how to help yourself. Then a red titled poster (must be the cult leader) shows up and tells you that everything in your life is a choice. You chose to lose your family, your home, and all your friends because you chose to be a alcoholic and drug addict. You have a bad habit, which you chose, and you can simply choose to stop using alcohol or drugs, if you really wanted to. You are not powerless over your addiction, you are in full control and the solution to all your problems is just to choose not to be an alcoholic or drug addict anymore. How would this make you feel?
Hopefully like a complete asshole, which is exactly what this sort of person is. Only a complete asshole drinks their life away to this extent. Fuck em and the horse the rode in on if they are going to get even a drop of pity from me for being so poorly in control of themselves that they can't stop boozing long enough to remember they have damn family.
Che, look in the mirror. What your 30yrs. something and still acting like 18yrs. booze has a lot to do with this.
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You called it a conspiracy theory when people started claiming you made the whole Blackmail up. You called it a conspiracy theory when people started claiming you were PosterX. Both of those things turned out to be true. You've cried wolf too many times... and with those exact same words.
Because I'm the only one to post under another name, right? I'll be waiting for your condemnation of all the other posters who do this, including DJ who was recently outed when his posts were connected together. Oh wait, it only bothers you when someone with pro treatment views does it, right? But hey, keep following me around the forum, and quoting the same post over and over and hope people think I am a liar, after all, that's the point right?
It's happened many times in the past. People come here claiming to have been in a program and swearing it saved their lives. When asked detailed questions about what the program was like they can't name any. When IPs are checked as one admin (who is not here anymore) used to do, it would be discovered that the messages originated from the program itself. It used to be far more common. There have even been court cases dealing with it. When Lon Woodbury's old forum was ripped apart it was discovered that Sue Scheff had been impersonating many many teens and parents. Stop acting like it's implausible when you already know about these things.
More evidence to feed your conspiracy theory, don't let me get in the way. It doesn't bother me if you think I am Sue Scheff pretending to be a "survivor". If you really believe I am fake, then why do you waste your time talking to me? I sure wouldn't' waste my time with someone I thought was "fake".
Of course, because when most people say "i was a drug addicts and this program saved my life" they have no reason to question it. When you learn that kids come out of the most horrific programs saying the exact same things (only to denounce it later), your perspective starts to change, especially when you understand thought reform.
Well I came out of the porgram saying it sucked, it took some maturing and being able to look at myself and my actions honestly to finally come to the conclusion that, at least in my case, the program was both necessary and life saving. I was never brainwashed, I am just at a place in my life where fitting in at fornits isn't as important to me as being real with myself. Perhaps every other kid every sent to a program was an innocent child who only smoked 1 cigarette. I do not fall into that category, my parents tried everything before that. I was destroying myself, the program stopped me from doing so. So the fact is, they saved my life. Not because of seminars or therapy. Because of the very simple action of physically removing me from my destructive home situation and my access to dangerous drugs, and other things that I used to hurt myself. They watched me all the time, like a baby, and kept me from harming myself. This isn't particularly enjoyable to admit it, but it's the truth.
You're sharing your opinions, not your "truth". Actually, there's a good deal of false statement of fact in there as well.
Whatever helps you sleep better at night. But despite your denials, I am real and so are my experiences.
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There is no doubt that AA is mainstream. Most ordinary people think of it as the place to refer loved ones with addictions. There are also people for who this forum is like a self imposed cult in that they seem to spend all of their leisure time here thus precluding the time for outside interests or friends.
But because something is mainstream or supported by the establishment does not mean that it cant get cult like. Some chapters of AA are like this. People have told me that their individual branch has not been like this at all and I am happy with taking their word for it. But that does not mean i want to go.
I also dispute the idea that you have a disease Maximillian but i am not saying this just to be mean to you. i don't doubt that it can sometimes be a real struggle to stay away from whatever your vices are, but talk to any formerly overweight person or reformed smoker and you will find that the struggle is not dissimilar whether it is cancer sticks or chocolate. The difference is that with some stronger drugs the price of taking them is maybe higher. In fact I would argue that the disease idea can make things harder. If you tell yourself that you have a lifelong illness what you are really saying is that you cant truly kick a habit, or that you need to replace it with another (like 12 steps).
This is not to say that it is easy. Or to say that the reasons why anybody starts to abuse drugs in the first place are simple. Or that initially anyone with a bad drug habit should not seek some kind of medical advice and assistance. But isnt the whole point of 12 steps that it is self help based and non professional? If this is the case how can it logically be argued that on one hand addiction is a disease but on the other hand only a self help group can cure it. Nobody with cancer would *just* go to a support group. They would also and primarily see an oncologist and get a medical solution.
I would also not say that we are completely responsible for the things that happen to us. But isn't that also the mentality that most personal growth seminars adopted by emotional growth schools espouse? That everybody is 100 percent responsible for all of their actions.
Alternatively you can look at it from the perspective of a bad habit that you used to indulge in. But now you are no longer the guy who does that. it is not a disease it is a life choice that you make. In the same way that you are not a criminal so make the choice not to steal. Or you are not an asshole so you make the choice to treat people with respect.
Reform, I think what you are missing what they mean by a disease. My little two cents, take a smoker, over weight person and a alcoholic. What Max is saying is he can never smoke a cigg, eat sugar or drink a beer responsibly again that option is off the table. Not that he is powerless to not drink. It is not a struggle to stay away from these vices been doing it for over 20 years, I just know if I pick up a drink the insanity will follow.
Take a diabetic so long as they eat healthy, exercise and take insulin there fine, some don't even need the insulin just a healthy life yet they still have the disease.
I do not believe AA really meant the word "disease" in its literal sense. I know Bill Wilson had a real problem with the word.
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What if AA is mainstream and Fornits is the cult?
Very Plausable,and an interesting topic
Fornits doesn't fit a single one of Singer's 6 conditions (http://http://www.factnet.org/Margaret_Thaler_Singer/6_Conditions_for_Thought_Reform.html) or Lifton's 8 criteria (http://http://www.rickross.com/reference/brainwashing/brainwashing19.html) for thought reform.
Fornits is simply a forum for discussion. The people here share a wide variety of opinions. It's freer than pretty much any forum or private establishment out there. No cults or cult-like groups will allow you to come onto their property and insult the group incessantly, yet that's exactly what's allowed here. 99.9% of the internet's forums, including 4chan, have more active moderation than Fornits.
1. If Fornits is a cult, who would be the leader?
2. If Fornits is a cult, how does it control it's members?
3. If Fornits is a cult, why does it tolerate all viewpoints (even though individual members may not respect them).
If Fornits were a cult Ginger and I would ban Danny Benisson. We would ban SUCK IT / Max. We would ban TheWho. We would ban anybody who didn't either tow the party line or we felt we couldn't convert. We would have secret forums, most likely with secret teachings or secret ideologies. We would pressure our members to report on each other and confess their darkest sins to a central authority. We would need a way to control people's time and communication so we would need to find a way to isolate a person from all outside criticism.
Hey, I thought you liked me. :( :( My last name is Bennison, why am I first one getting banned.
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Che, look in the mirror. What your 30yrs. something and still acting like 18yrs. booze has a lot to do with this.
I was with Aaron for a week. He hardly drank a drop. On the last day we bought a 6 pack of imported beer. I din't finish my first. I think he had two and a half, maybe, but he's a big guy. In typical fashion you're accusing others of having problems they dont have, and if they deny it it's just further evidence of their problem.
It's like this episode of "Better Off Ted" I saw today where Ted and Linda are falsely accused of sexual harassment. When Veronica (their bosses) tries to go to the sexual harassment legal guy she finds out he's a drunk who is out in rehab most of the year because he has a "disease" and the company won't fire him because of it (i would!). She gets this idea: In order to save Ted and Linda's jobs, she decides to get corporate to reclassify sexual harassment as a "disease" so they can't be held responsible for their actions.
So Ted and Linda end up in these 12 step based rehab sessions. Sure there are some genuine pervs there, but it doesn't matter that they're innocent. Any attempt from Ted and Linda to maintain their innocence is seen as denial, as further evidence of their problem. It's witch dunking and catch 22. They're forced to admit to a problem they don't have if they ever want to "graduate". Meanwhile, predictably, the rest of the office turns into one big orgy of ass slapping, flirtation, and sex as people realize there are no real consequences to their actions. If they get caught, they just go to rehabilitation classes to deal with their "disease".
To you, because Aaron has admitted to drinking on the forum, he must be an irresponsible alcoholic like you. One in denial. Nothing he says, can sway you because in your eyes he's in denial. Nothing I can say will sway you because in your eyes I'm not a drunk, and therefore cannot possibly know what i'm talking about.
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Hey, I thought you liked me. :( :( My last name is Bennison, why was I first.
Nothing personal. My point was just that we would ban anybody who disagrees with us on whatever.
This is unrelated, but let me ask anyway, Danny: How would you react if somebody came on here claiming Elan saved their life? What would you think about it?
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There is no doubt that AA is mainstream. Most ordinary people think of it as the place to refer loved ones with addictions. There are also people for who this forum is like a self imposed cult in that they seem to spend all of their leisure time here thus precluding the time for outside interests or friends.
But because something is mainstream or supported by the establishment does not mean that it cant get cult like. Some chapters of AA are like this. People have told me that their individual branch has not been like this at all and I am happy with taking their word for it. But that does not mean i want to go.
I also dispute the idea that you have a disease Maximillian but i am not saying this just to be mean to you. i don't doubt that it can sometimes be a real struggle to stay away from whatever your vices are, but talk to any formerly overweight person or reformed smoker and you will find that the struggle is not dissimilar whether it is cancer sticks or chocolate. The difference is that with some stronger drugs the price of taking them is maybe higher. In fact I would argue that the disease idea can make things harder. If you tell yourself that you have a lifelong illness what you are really saying is that you cant truly kick a habit, or that you need to replace it with another (like 12 steps).
This is not to say that it is easy. Or to say that the reasons why anybody starts to abuse drugs in the first place are simple. Or that initially anyone with a bad drug habit should not seek some kind of medical advice and assistance. But isnt the whole point of 12 steps that it is self help based and non professional? If this is the case how can it logically be argued that on one hand addiction is a disease but on the other hand only a self help group can cure it. Nobody with cancer would *just* go to a support group. They would also and primarily see an oncologist and get a medical solution.
I would also not say that we are completely responsible for the things that happen to us. But isn't that also the mentality that most personal growth seminars adopted by emotional growth schools espouse? That everybody is 100 percent responsible for all of their actions.
Alternatively you can look at it from the perspective of a bad habit that you used to indulge in. But now you are no longer the guy who does that. it is not a disease it is a life choice that you make. In the same way that you are not a criminal so make the choice not to steal. Or you are not an asshole so you make the choice to treat people with respect.
Reform, I think what you are missing what they mean by a disease. My little two cents, take a smoker, over weight person and a alcoholic. What Max is saying is he can never smoke a cigg, eat sugar or drink a beer responsibly again that option is off the table. Not that he is powerless to not drink. It is not a struggle to stay away from these vices been doing it for over 20 years, I just know if I pick up a drink the insanity will follow.
Take a diabetic so long as they eat healthy, exercise and take insulin there fine, some don't even need the insulin just a healthy life yet they still have the disease.
I do not believe AA really meant the word "disease" in its literal sense. I know Bill Wilson had a real problem with the word.
Thanks for bringing this thread back on topic. For me drug addiction is like a disease, because I don't feel there is a cure other than to avoid using altogether. That is a choice, but once I make that choice to use again, then the drugs take over and my own intentions become more and more irrelevant as I fall down the rabbit hole. Some people might be able to do some lines on the weekend, or use meth responsibly to stay up and do schoolwork. I take it to a whole other level, and I've talked about it before, like the several times I was refused sale of drugs because the dealers themselves were so concerned I was going to kill myself.
So some people might not have problems with drugs, good for them. I wish I was like them. But for some reason I am drawn to certain drugs and once I start I can't stop until I am forced to, either by the law, intervention, hospitalization or death (been lucky to avoid that so far). To me there is no cure, but to find some way to keep myself from feeling tempted from using. Even though it's been a couple years sobriety from these drugs I have problems with, I still get strong cravings especially when things get difficult.
So going to NA at times like that helps me, and the people have always been kind and nice, non judgmental and wanting to help and also hear what i have to say. So whether people call it a disease, or a curse, or whatever doesn't bother me. But the fact is that the people at NA are some great people who are always there and willing to help no matter what. I don't see how anybody could possibly see these helpful people as bad, or a cult. I just don't get it, I really don't. Maybe when people hating on AA hit rock bottom and have nowhere to turn but AA/NA you will understand. I hope you don't read avoid asking for help from AA/NA just because of what is written here, because the criticisms here do not represent the real guardian angels that will be willing to help you out at a meeting, when nobody else is willing or able to.
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But now imagine, you come to fornits and ask for advice. You explain that you lost everything because you are an alcoholic/addict and don't know how to help yourself. Then a red titled poster (must be the cult leader) shows up and tells you that everything in your life is a choice. You chose to lose your family, your home, and all your friends because you chose to be a alcoholic and drug addict. You have a bad habit, which you chose, and you can simply choose to stop using alcohol or drugs, if you really wanted to. You are not powerless over your addiction, you are in full control and the solution to all your problems is just to choose not to be an alcoholic or drug addict anymore. How would this make you feel?
Hopefully like a complete asshole, which is exactly what this sort of person is. Only a complete asshole drinks their life away to this extent. Fuck em and the horse the rode in on if they are going to get even a drop of pity from me for being so poorly in control of themselves that they can't stop boozing long enough to remember they have damn family.
Che, look in the mirror. What your 30yrs. something and still acting like 18yrs. booze has a lot to do with this.
Dude.... When you went to AA you had already made the decision to quit... AA did not make that decision for you... That was an independent thought which I have no problem with... It is the dependence on your beloved :Stepcult like group: the dependence that people put on it is irrational... Their choice is made when they walk in the door... The "Cult like Stepcraft in which they preach is total bullshit as people are not poweless ... It is and always has been a matter of personal choice with people about " THE WAY THEY CHOOSE TO LIVE THEIR LIVES...
Peace
:peace:
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But now imagine, you come to fornits and ask for advice. You explain that you lost everything because you are an alcoholic/addict and don't know how to help yourself. Then a red titled poster (must be the cult leader) shows up and tells you that everything in your life is a choice. You chose to lose your family, your home, and all your friends because you chose to be a alcoholic and drug addict. You have a bad habit, which you chose, and you can simply choose to stop using alcohol or drugs, if you really wanted to. You are not powerless over your addiction, you are in full control and the solution to all your problems is just to choose not to be an alcoholic or drug addict anymore. How would this make you feel?
Hopefully like a complete asshole, which is exactly what this sort of person is. Only a complete asshole drinks their life away to this extent. Fuck em and the horse the rode in on if they are going to get even a drop of pity from me for being so poorly in control of themselves that they can't stop boozing long enough to remember they have damn family.
Che, look in the mirror. What your 30yrs. something and still acting like 18yrs. booze has a lot to do with this.
Dude.... When you went to AA you had already made the decision to quit... AA did not make that decision for you... That was an independent thought which I have no problem with... It is the dependence on your beloved :Stepcult like group: the dependence that people put on it is irrational... Their choice is made when they walk in the door... The "Cult like Stepcraft in which they preach is total bullshit as people are not poweless ... It is and always has been a matter of personal choice with people about " THE WAY THEY CHOOSE TO LIVE THEIR LIVES...
Peace
:peace:
Botch what the hell are you doing, prophesying while your drunk....com'on sailor. :rofl: :rofl:
Just kidding!!!
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I know what it's like to be powerless over drug use, to the degree of using even when you know the next use might be your last. It's at that point that you realize addiction is real, when you are willing to keep using and kill yourself. This is also when I learned it was OK to ask for help, because I obviously couldn't stop on my own, I just couldn't. People can call it a choice all they want, but it doesn't change the fact of how drugs can take over common sense, and make you do things to yourself you would never otherwise do. Being sober helps you regain power over your own life, and that is what AA provides so people should be grateful and thank them rather than condemn them for this life saving service. The hatred towards AA here really bothers me because the best people I've ever met, the most selfless and people who will give you their shirt off their back, I met at AA/NA.
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I know what it's like to be powerless over drug use, to the degree of using even when you know the next use might be your last. It's at that point that you realize addiction is real, when you are willing to keep using and kill yourself. This is also when I learned it was OK to ask for help, because I obviously couldn't stop on my own, I just couldn't. People can call it a choice all they want, but it doesn't change the fact of how drugs can take over common sense, and make you do things to yourself you would never otherwise do. Being sober helps you regain power over your own life, and that is what AA provides so people should be grateful and thank them rather than condemn them for this life saving service. The hatred towards AA here really bothers me because the best people I've ever met, the most selfless and people who will give you their shirt off their back, I met at AA/NA.
You keep repeating the same story over and over. move on.
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Max you seem to keep avoiding Psy's questions regarding the tenents of a cult and how fornits fits them. Hence bringing things back around to what you claim is the problem with fornits. I'll ask you to answer the question, or in simpiler terms back up your own position. You and those who are like you look at that as being attacked or being silenced. This is no different than the situation with Whooter. I'm by no means blackmailing him into silence, in fact I'm encouraging him to speak out. How I'm treating him is no different than how the programs that you and he love, and that many of us claim are abusive, treated us. He's being forced to accept the consequences for his actions. No one is asking him to lie despite his cries to the contrary, so where in your mind lies the problem?
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I know what it's like to be powerless over drug use, to the degree of using even when you know the next use might be your last. It's at that point that you realize addiction is real, when you are willing to keep using and kill yourself. This is also when I learned it was OK to ask for help, because I obviously couldn't stop on my own, I just couldn't. People can call it a choice all they want, but it doesn't change the fact of how drugs can take over common sense, and make you do things to yourself you would never otherwise do. Being sober helps you regain power over your own life, and that is what AA provides so people should be grateful and thank them rather than condemn them for this life saving service. The hatred towards AA here really bothers me because the best people I've ever met, the most selfless and people who will give you their shirt off their back, I met at AA/NA.
Max, I know what it's like to THINK you are powerless over drug use, but this is an illusion. Young people often have problems with things that will no longer be problematic once they mature. Like the first time you had a crush on a girl. Your feelings toward this girl might "take over your common sense" or " make you do things you would never otherwise do", but this does not mean that you are and always will be powerless over girls. Teenagers are not finished products and to label them "addicts for life" is cruel and unethical.
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I get it. A lot of posters here think addiction is simply a choice people make, or a bad habit. I happen to agree with AA that addiction is a serious issue that never really goes away. I appreciate the efforts to educate me as to what people view as truth, but I have reached my own conclusions based on my own experiences with addiction and with AA/NA, and that's just the way I feel. This thread made a simple point. That point is that AA is mainstream, and that fornits is considered pretty out there, politically speaking. This is how I view the reality, not based on simply hanging around fornits, mostly by talking to real people and people outside of fornits, who have an outside perspective. This place has a reputation for being where the crazy people post, I"m not saying that, but that's what other people tell me. I actually like fornits, and the open conversation. I wish people would be more open to have an honest conversation and to other people's opinions, but I think that will get better over time.
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I wish people would be more open to have an honest conversation and to other people's opinions, but I think that will get better over time.
I know just what you mean. I wish people like you, Whooter, Danny, et cet were more open to the fact that many people were abused in these programs. That being said though, I've been posting here for years, and it doesn't seem as if your side will ever open to those facts or will be willing to really listen to the other side.
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I've always accepted the fact kids are abused in programs, and some have been killed. These are facts that cannot be ignored, and why should they? Everybody should be working on how to make programs safer and more effective. Over time I think programs do improve and get better. You can search my old posts, I've always acknowledged that some people are abused, and have negative experiences. I've been waiting for some reciprocity in this admission, but I am met with conspiracy theories about who I really am, or if I really went to a program. Just because some people are abused, doesn't mean everybody is. I wasn't, and as I've explained before the program actually saved my life through it's restrictiveness and strict rules. When people make threads talking about how they were abused, I don't go in and post that I think they are full of shit, or post disgusting pictures in an attempt to censor the conversation. Yet it happens to me all the time. I never posted people's personal information in an attempt to shut them up, about how they were abused. Yet it happens to anyone with an inkling of pro treatment views with regularity.
I've always been open to hear people's experiences, and have always taken them at face value. I'll await a quote of myself telling somebody what they think happened to them, really in fact did not happen. I don't do that, because I'm not that arrogant to assume I know better than other people. I know some people were abused, and they post here. This forum claims to be open to all opinions, and the fact I had a positive experience and it saved my life is rarely acknowledged or accepted as reality. It's mostly met with reasons why they can dismiss what I say altogether. So I find it highly ironic that these same people request that I stop telling people who were abused, that they weren't. Because I've never done that, yet that exact thing happens to me every time I post here. But hey, I'm used to the fornits double standard by this point.
But I am going to have to refrain from talking with you RobertBruce. I feel uncomfortable talking to people who thinks it's ok to threaten to release personal information about people, and who believe in conspiracy theories about Whooter's identity with no proof. To me this proves you are an extremist who is willing to bully innocent people, and send them creepy letters about their family members suicide just to win an online argument with Whooter. If you can mature a bit I will be open to a conversation with you, but until then I am going to have to ignore you.
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:eek:
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I feel uncomfortable talking to people who thinks it's ok to threaten to release personal information about people,
Then you should probably hold off on talking to Whooter as well, again he started this game, not us. He's just not especially good at it. I don't really care if you talk to me or not. So far you seem unable to provide any real information about your expereiences, and are only interested in playing games.
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:rasta:
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:eek:
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Hey, I thought you liked me. :( :( My last name is Bennison, why was I first.
Nothing personal. My point was just that we would ban anybody who disagrees with us on whatever.
This is unrelated, but let me ask anyway, Danny: How would you react if somebody came on here claiming Elan saved their life? What would you think about it?
Whoa now psy, you can not drag me into this conversation, my views have always been the same, I have never changed them. I know folks who feel Elan saved their life. They have felt this way for 30 years, Early Elan, 70-75 possibly had some great moments, I know that Elan 5 under Ed Freidman was not a bad environment to be in for a TC.
I happen to spend a great deal of time with Joe Ricci, Marty Kruglick, Peter McCann and Jeff Gottlieb to think Elan was anything other then a warehouse making money off the backs of kids that should have never been placed their. In 1976 when Elan reached a population of over 400 residents we were understaffed and completely overwhelmed. Frustrations were at a heighten level and the abuse was rampant. Joe, Peter, Marty were falling apart personally and the company was taking the brunt of it.
This is what I think, in short.
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I wish people would be more open to have an honest conversation and to other people's opinions, but I think that will get better over time.
I know just what you mean. I wish people like you, Whooter, Danny, et cet were more open to the fact that many people were abused in these programs. That being said though, I've been posting here for years, and it doesn't seem as if your side will ever open to those facts or will be willing to really listen to the other side.
Robert, I went to Elan, must I say more. My side, your side, Bla Bla Bla. This is your creation not mine.
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Che, look in the mirror. What your 30yrs. something and still acting like 18yrs. booze has a lot to do with this.
I was with Aaron for a week. He hardly drank a drop. On the last day we bought a 6 pack of imported beer. I din't finish my first. I think he had two and a half, maybe, but he's a big guy. In typical fashion you're accusing others of having problems they dont have, and if they deny it it's just further evidence of their problem.
To you, because Aaron has admitted to drinking on the forum, he must be an irresponsible alcoholic like you. One in denial. Nothing he says, can sway you because in your eyes he's in denial. Nothing I can say will sway you because in your eyes I'm not a drunk, and therefore cannot possibly know what i'm talking about.
First off, you keep associating me with your idea of AA, it is not mine. Second, Che has given us all the information we need to surmise his personal problem. I'd bet I am not to far off. Che and yourself journey to California was a while ago, so I would not be referring to that time frame.
Hey, why do you have a problem with my careless characterizations of folks but others here no a problem with theirs. You don't have to answer, I already know.
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Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
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Hey, I thought you liked me. :( :( My last name is Bennison, why was I first.
Nothing personal. My point was just that we would ban anybody who disagrees with us on whatever.
This is unrelated, but let me ask anyway, Danny: How would you react if somebody came on here claiming Elan saved their life? What would you think about it?
Whoa now psy, you can not drag me into this conversation, my views have always been the same, I have never changed them. I know folks who feel Elan saved their life. They have felt this way for 30 years, Early Elan, 70-75 possibly had some great moments, I know that Elan 5 under Ed Freidman was not a bad environment to be in for a TC.
I happen to spend a great deal of time with Joe Ricci, Marty Kruglick, Peter McCann and Jeff Gottlieb to think Elan was anything other then a warehouse making money off the backs of kids that should have never been placed their. In 1976 when Elan reached a population of over 400 residents we were understaffed and completely overwhelmed. Frustrations were at a heighten level and the abuse was rampant. Joe, Peter, Marty were falling apart personally and the company was taking the brunt of it.
This is what I think, in short.
And yet we come back to the premise that each and every person there in Elan witnessed at least one person being abused in some way. With Elan the likely number spirals even higher than one given the absolutely disgusting history of that program. Does it really matter if there are people who believe that Elan saved their life? Absolutely not, given they witnessed others being abused. The added complication of peer abuse in Elan makes it even more of a murky situation given the history of the Ring and General meetings that involved repeated instances of peer related abuse.
This is the shocking concept at play here:
Program survivors who believe the program saved them despite being the witness of the abuse of a fellow detainee....
What does that tell you about that person?
What does this tell you about Max who spent time in a WWASP program? You can be almost certain to a 99 percent certainty that he witnessed someone being abused physically, mentally, verbally, or sexually during his stay. Yet, he passes his experience off as a positive one and makes no effort to consider the feelings and emotions of his fellow detainees who were abused. He doesn't even consider it abusive that he witnessed abuse. What does that tell you about his ability to put his experience into perspective?
Again, this is why I can't and never will take people like Max very seriously.
People like Danny who claim Elan 5 was an alright place for the 1970s. Whoopie doo? A veritable island of sanity in a sea of psychotic abusive staff and crazed residents all acting out their sad tale in a real life Lord of the Flies all of the sudden means anything?
No, sorry, doesn't mean anything other than some people got lucky and in the process forgot that it is perfectly normal to feel enraged at the sight of other human beings being hurt by others. They forgot to feel guilty for being involved in it and not resisting. They forgot this guilty, they denied their rage, and they sold out every single person that ever has been abused by their programs and ever will be abused.
and yes, Fuck you danny.
:twofinger:
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FWIW: I don't think this is really about Che drinking rather DannyB II getting attention on fornits (Danny knows this). What is he trying to accomplish? Is he focused on the important issues {closing abusive programs}? I don't think he is. Whereas I think most people would agree he has exhibited a pattern of disrespect and lack of focus. This isn't the only website he's done this on:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2 ... 2373072738 (http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2234330403&v=app_2373072738) ( Danny )
I think the best plan of action would be to ignore Danny's negative behaviors.
"sweet cheeks" :D
Joel,
This is Danny's way of discrediting people and trying to get them embroiled into nonsensical arguments. He's derailed and destroyed several other forums this way. Better off just ignoring him.
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Hey, I thought you liked me. :( :( My last name is Bennison, why was I first.
Nothing personal. My point was just that we would ban anybody who disagrees with us on whatever.
This is unrelated, but let me ask anyway, Danny: How would you react if somebody came on here claiming Elan saved their life? What would you think about it?
Whoa now psy, you can not drag me into this conversation, my views have always been the same, I have never changed them. I know folks who feel Elan saved their life. They have felt this way for 30 years, Early Elan, 70-75 possibly had some great moments, I know that Elan 5 under Ed Freidman was not a bad environment to be in for a TC.
I happen to spend a great deal of time with Joe Ricci, Marty Kruglick, Peter McCann and Jeff Gottlieb to think Elan was anything other then a warehouse making money off the backs of kids that should have never been placed their. In 1976 when Elan reached a population of over 400 residents we were understaffed and completely overwhelmed. Frustrations were at a heighten level and the abuse was rampant. Joe, Peter, Marty were falling apart personally and the company was taking the brunt of it.
This is what I think, in short.
And yet we come back to the premise that each and every person there in Elan witnessed at least one person being abused in some way. With Elan the likely number spirals even higher than one given the absolutely disgusting history of that program. Does it really matter if there are people who believe that Elan saved their life? Absolutely not, given they witnessed others being abused. The added complication of peer abuse in Elan makes it even more of a murky situation given the history of the Ring and General meetings that involved repeated instances of peer related abuse.
No that is not true at all, there are folks who went to Elan in the early years before the physical violence, screaming and hollering that witnessed really no abuse. I have talked with them, about the time Matt and Mark showed up Elan was implementing more physical behavior modification methods. I think this was early 1974.
This is the shocking concept at play here:
Program survivors who believe the program saved them despite being the witness of the abuse of a fellow detainee....
What does that tell you about that person?
It does not tell you anything about said person Che, when you have your information your writing here inaccurate.
What does this tell you about Max who spent time in a WWASP program? You can be almost certain to a 99 percent certainty that he witnessed someone being abused physically, mentally, verbally, or sexually during his stay. Yet, he passes his experience off as a positive one and makes no effort to consider the feelings and emotions of his fellow detainees who were abused. He doesn't even consider it abusive that he witnessed abuse. What does that tell you about his ability to put his experience into perspective?
Your assuming a lot here, Che. You have no idea if he witnessed abuse. So it can not tell us anything.
Again, this is why I can't and never will take people like Max very seriously.
Well then you dismiss a possible education.
People like Danny who claim Elan 5 was an alright place for the 1970s. Whoopie doo? A veritable island of sanity in a sea of psychotic abusive staff and crazed residents all acting out their sad tale in a real life Lord of the Flies all of the sudden means anything?
Elan 5, was alright for a while there whether you like this characterization or not.
No, sorry, doesn't mean anything other than some people got lucky and in the process forgot that it is perfectly normal to feel enraged at the sight of other human beings being hurt by others. They forgot to feel guilty for being involved in it and not resisting. They forgot this guilty, they denied their rage, and they sold out every single person that ever has been abused by their programs and ever will be abused.
Che this is your take on it and I'll tell ya, it is a plausible argument. I just happen to take folks at their word until I get to know them. Some of the folks I am referring to did not experience abuse nor witnessed it by their accounts. I say alright, they are entitled to their reality. I have known some of them for many years. They are doing well as their children ..ect.
Life goes on.
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FWIW: I don't think this is really about Che drinking rather DannyB II getting attention on fornits (Danny knows this). What is he trying to accomplish? Is he focused on the important issues {closing abusive programs}? I don't think he is. Whereas I think most people would agree he has exhibited a pattern of disrespect and lack of focus. This isn't the only website he's done this on:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2 ... 2373072738 (http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2234330403&v=app_2373072738) ( Danny )
I think the best plan of action would be to ignore Danny's negative behaviors.
"sweet cheeks" :D
Joel is Aaron's (Che's) brother, so every time I say something concerning his brother Joel (sweet cheeks) doesn't like. He comes to Aarons rescue. Isn't this just dandy.
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FWIW: I don't think this is really about Che drinking rather DannyB II getting attention on fornits (Danny knows this). What is he trying to accomplish? Is he focused on the important issues {closing abusive programs}? I don't think he is. Whereas I think most people would agree he has exhibited a pattern of disrespect and lack of focus. This isn't the only website he's done this on:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2 ... 2373072738 (http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2234330403&v=app_2373072738) ( Danny )
I think the best plan of action would be to ignore Danny's negative behaviors.
"sweet cheeks" :D
Joel,
This is Danny's way of discrediting people and trying to get them embroiled into nonsensical arguments. He's derailed and destroyed several other forums this way. Better off just ignoring him.
No, this is Danny destroying your credibility, Che. You seem to think you are a expert on the TTI no matter what forum your speaking on. You seem to think you can say whatever you want, to whoever you please, however you want to say it. I am here to counter that and keep you honest. Especially when it comes to matters I feel are important.
You started this fight dip-shit so deal with it and stop crying. Please tell your brother that anytime he would like to grow a pair, we would all appreciate it.
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You can be almost certain to a 99 percent certainty that he witnessed someone being abused physically, mentally, verbally, or sexually during his stay.
I am being completely honest when I say I did not witness any abuse. But then again, it depends on what your definition of abuse is. My definition is something that you could call the police and report an assault, something that is illegal. I know many posters here consider being kept in a program against your will abusive, some people consider group therapy psychological abuse, some people consider isolation abuse, and some people think not being allowed to masturbate is sexual abuse. I get all that, but I can't say " I was abused", and feel like I'm being honest. I was treated in a strict way, because I had proven many times over that I could not be trusted with my own freedoms. So they took those freedoms away from me, which also included taking the freedom for me to destroy myself.
I never saw abuse in the program. I did see restraints, but they were all for a good reason. I never saw staff hitting staff with mean intentions, or anything like that. When people talk about child abuse, it means a parent hitting their kid with a belt, or something like that. The word abuse here is watered down to a degree, that I don't think sometimes we are even talking about the same thing. Psy says he was abused in a treatment center, how? What incident exactly qualifies as "abuse", you can't just say everyone in a program is being abused and not back it up with something. I am going on my own experience and what I saw. I'm not saying it was all cake and ice cream all the time, some difficult things happened, as you would expect when a large group of troubled teens is located in one facility. But mean spirited, outright abuse? I never saw any of that. If illegal abuse is happening in all programs right now, why don't you all just call the cops? Because child abuse is illegal, and if you know it's happening make the call and get the to arrest the people. Arguing with me isn't going to help any kids.
Yet, he passes his experience off as a positive one and makes no effort to consider the feelings and emotions of his fellow detainees who were abused.
This comes up a lot on fornits. I should shut up and keep my opinions to myself, lest I hurt the feelings of the poor, fragile victims of programs. Look around, this is fornits, a place that says it welcomes all opinions and has no moderation. People are free to start their own threads, and post all they want, right? Well I'll post my opinions and they can post there's, that's exactly what this forum is designed for. It's not my fault none of them show up to talk about it.
He doesn't even consider it abusive that he witnessed abuse. What does that tell you about his ability to put his experience into perspective?
Correct. I view abuse as an illegal assault, something you could be arrested or cited for by official law enforcement agencies or child protective services.I thought about it for a long time, and realized even if I had a cell phone in the program, I couldn't have called the cops or CPS for anything. Many posters here think what goes on is unethical, fair enough, but it's not illegal child abuse. If it were, somebody would call the cops on every program out there. But it's all legal, so if you guys want that changed go become a legislator or something and stop wasting your time with me.
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FWIW: I don't think this is really about Che drinking rather DannyB II getting attention on fornits (Danny knows this). What is he trying to accomplish? Is he focused on the important issues {closing abusive programs}? I don't think he is. Whereas I think most people would agree he has exhibited a pattern of disrespect and lack of focus. This isn't the only website he's done this on:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2 ... 2373072738 (http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2234330403&v=app_2373072738) ( Danny )
I think the best plan of action would be to ignore Danny's negative behaviors.
"sweet cheeks" :D
Joel,
This is Danny's way of discrediting people and trying to get them embroiled into nonsensical arguments. He's derailed and destroyed several other forums this way. Better off just ignoring him.
No, this is Danny destroying your credibility, Che. You seem to think you are a expert on the TTI no matter what forum your speaking on. You seem to think you can say whatever you want, to whoever you please, however you want to say it. I am here to counter that and keep you honest. Especially when it comes to matters I feel are important.
You started this fight dip-shit so deal with it and stop crying. Please tell your brother that anytime he would like to grow a pair, we would all appreciate it.
Danny, your tough guy posturing really isn't doing you much in the way of crediting your argument. In the future I'm going to have to insist you refrain from attempting to bully others into submission. It hasn't yet worked for you on these forums and neither will it.
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You can be almost certain to a 99 percent certainty that he witnessed someone being abused physically, mentally, verbally, or sexually during his stay.
I am being completely honest when I say I did not witness any abuse. But then again, it depends on what your definition of abuse is. My definition is something that you could call the police and report an assault, something that is illegal. I know many posters here consider being kept in a program against your will abusive, some people consider group therapy psychological abuse, some people consider isolation abuse, and some people think not being allowed to masturbate is sexual abuse. I get all that, but I can't say " I was abused", and feel like I'm being honest. I was treated in a strict way, because I had proven many times over that I could not be trusted with my own freedoms. So they took those freedoms away from me, which also included taking the freedom for me to destroy myself.
I never saw abuse in the program. I did see restraints, but they were all for a good reason. I never saw staff hitting staff with mean intentions, or anything like that. When people talk about child abuse, it means a parent hitting their kid with a belt, or something like that. The word abuse here is watered down to a degree, that I don't think sometimes we are even talking about the same thing. Psy says he was abused in a treatment center, how? What incident exactly qualifies as "abuse", you can't just say everyone in a program is being abused and not back it up with something. I am going on my own experience and what I saw. I'm not saying it was all cake and ice cream all the time, some difficult things happened, as you would expect when a large group of troubled teens is located in one facility. But mean spirited, outright abuse? I never saw any of that. If illegal abuse is happening in all programs right now, why don't you all just call the cops? Because child abuse is illegal, and if you know it's happening make the call and get the to arrest the people. Arguing with me isn't going to help any kids.
Yet, he passes his experience off as a positive one and makes no effort to consider the feelings and emotions of his fellow detainees who were abused.
This comes up a lot on fornits. I should shut up and keep my opinions to myself, lest I hurt the feelings of the poor, fragile victims of programs. Look around, this is fornits, a place that says it welcomes all opinions and has no moderation. People are free to start their own threads, and post all they want, right? Well I'll post my opinions and they can post there's, that's exactly what this forum is designed for. It's not my fault none of them show up to talk about it.
He doesn't even consider it abusive that he witnessed abuse. What does that tell you about his ability to put his experience into perspective?
Correct. I view abuse as an illegal assault, something you could be arrested or cited for by official law enforcement agencies or child protective services.I thought about it for a long time, and realized even if I had a cell phone in the program, I couldn't have called the cops or CPS for anything. Many posters here think what goes on is unethical, fair enough, but it's not illegal child abuse. If it were, somebody would call the cops on every program out there. But it's all legal, so if you guys want that changed go become a legislator or something and stop wasting your time with me.
Making absolutely sure you don't delete this post.
this one is full of sickness.
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Look Max. You keep saying you were not abused. And that you never even wittnesed any abuse.If this is real, then I an truly glad for you.But you are only one person with one story among many. Just as you lived your ordeal so did we.I know what I saw and I know what I lived. And I know that since you had a positive program experience,you are in no way quallified to speak for me. I find that arrogant and pointless. It must be nice to see yourself at the center of the universe. But guess what you're not the only one here.
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I'm always going in the Seed forum and Straight forum and all of those, and making threads telling people you were not abused, right? Nope. I start my own threads about my own experiences. I talk about myself because I choose to share my experiences and comment about them, and my own opinions, rather than spend my time following other posters around telling them they are liars and complaining they don't represent my pro treatment views fairly. Everyone who posts here can only speak for themselves, even if they want to claim to be speaking for everyone, it doesn't work that way.
There are plenty of other threads people can comment on besides my own, and I don't make a habit of going into other people's threads and telling them why they are right or wrong, or whatever. I wish more people would talk about their own experiences instead of spending so much effort int he pursuit of discrediting others. So the argument that my opinions and me starting a few threads about myself somehow harms other people, or puts them down, well I just don't buy into that very much.
People you can continue to tell me to shut up, to respect the feelings of those who were abused, but I'm not gullible enough to fall for this manipulation. This is fornits, an open free for all relating to the TTI. I stay on topic and post well thought out threads, and get a lot of bullshit in response. People should start their own threads and make their own arguments, instead of trying to guilt me into shutting up. Because it won't work, I'm here to stay.
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Max-it wrote;
"I'm here to stay."
Oh goody!
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You can be almost certain to a 99 percent certainty that he witnessed someone being abused physically, mentally, verbally, or sexually during his stay.
I am being completely honest when I say I did not witness any abuse. But then again, it depends on what your definition of abuse is. My definition is something that you could call the police and report an assault, something that is illegal. I know many posters here consider being kept in a program against your will abusive, some people consider group therapy psychological abuse, some people consider isolation abuse, and some people think not being allowed to masturbate is sexual abuse. I get all that, but I can't say " I was abused", and feel like I'm being honest. I was treated in a strict way, because I had proven many times over that I could not be trusted with my own freedoms. So they took those freedoms away from me, which also included taking the freedom for me to destroy myself.
I never saw abuse in the program. I did see restraints, but they were all for a good reason. I never saw staff hitting staff with mean intentions, or anything like that. When people talk about child abuse, it means a parent hitting their kid with a belt, or something like that. The word abuse here is watered down to a degree, that I don't think sometimes we are even talking about the same thing. Psy says he was abused in a treatment center, how? What incident exactly qualifies as "abuse", you can't just say everyone in a program is being abused and not back it up with something. I am going on my own experience and what I saw. I'm not saying it was all cake and ice cream all the time, some difficult things happened, as you would expect when a large group of troubled teens is located in one facility. But mean spirited, outright abuse? I never saw any of that. If illegal abuse is happening in all programs right now, why don't you all just call the cops? Because child abuse is illegal, and if you know it's happening make the call and get the to arrest the people. Arguing with me isn't going to help any kids.
Yet, he passes his experience off as a positive one and makes no effort to consider the feelings and emotions of his fellow detainees who were abused.
This comes up a lot on fornits. I should shut up and keep my opinions to myself, lest I hurt the feelings of the poor, fragile victims of programs. Look around, this is fornits, a place that says it welcomes all opinions and has no moderation. People are free to start their own threads, and post all they want, right? Well I'll post my opinions and they can post there's, that's exactly what this forum is designed for. It's not my fault none of them show up to talk about it.
He doesn't even consider it abusive that he witnessed abuse. What does that tell you about his ability to put his experience into perspective?
Correct. I view abuse as an illegal assault, something you could be arrested or cited for by official law enforcement agencies or child protective services.I thought about it for a long time, and realized even if I had a cell phone in the program, I couldn't have called the cops or CPS for anything. Many posters here think what goes on is unethical, fair enough, but it's not illegal child abuse. If it were, somebody would call the cops on every program out there. But it's all legal, so if you guys want that changed go become a legislator or something and stop wasting your time with me.
I suppose if I never had a conscience in the first place, and was too stupid to understand the concept of psychological abuse and its implications regarding developing teens, then I might feel exactly the way Max feels.
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Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
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FWIW: I don't think this is really about Che drinking rather DannyB II getting attention on fornits (Danny knows this). What is he trying to accomplish? Is he focused on the important issues {closing abusive programs}? I don't think he is. Whereas I think most people would agree he has exhibited a pattern of disrespect and lack of focus. This isn't the only website he's done this on:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2 ... 2373072738 (http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2234330403&v=app_2373072738) ( Danny )
I think the best plan of action would be to ignore Danny's negative behaviors.
"sweet cheeks" :D
Joel,
This is Danny's way of discrediting people and trying to get them embroiled into nonsensical arguments. He's derailed and destroyed several other forums this way. Better off just ignoring him.
No, this is Danny destroying your credibility, Che. You seem to think you are a expert on the TTI no matter what forum your speaking on. You seem to think you can say whatever you want, to whoever you please, however you want to say it. I am here to counter that and keep you honest. Especially when it comes to matters I feel are important.
You started this fight dip-shit so deal with it and stop crying. Please tell your brother that anytime he would like to grow a pair, we would all appreciate it.
Danny, your tough guy posturing really isn't doing you much in the way of crediting your argument. In the future I'm going to have to insist you refrain from attempting to bully others into submission. It hasn't yet worked for you on these forums and neither will it.
Well let me say this to ya my friend, when you want to stop bullying and controlling people you don't agree with or like (because you don't agree with them), I'll do it. Until then Che, you will be given what you give. I did not know this is what it was called Che, I am just doing the same thing you do /did to fellow members you don't like.
Why is it when you fuckers get what you give to others you start crying on the boards and I am sure in your case Che, wearing Ginger and Psy out with your chronic sniveling.
You don't hear me crying and since day one I have heard nothing else but how it is my fault, I do this and I do that.
Danny is not a tough guy and has never thought it was a plausible avenue to build credibility. Bullying, nope got the wrong guy, sorry. Read your paragraph Che, your almost contradicting yourself. One sentence, your saying I am attempting to bully folks into submission and in another, your saying it has not work and never will. Well if it is an attempt that is not happening and never will, then in essence you have something that never happened.
So why even bring it up, dip shit. This is what I mean about you, you are the instigator.
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FWIW: I don't think this is really about Che drinking rather DannyB II getting attention on fornits (Danny knows this). What is he trying to accomplish? Is he focused on the important issues {closing abusive programs}? I don't think he is. Whereas I think most people would agree he has exhibited a pattern of disrespect and lack of focus. This isn't the only website he's done this on:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2 ... 2373072738 (http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2234330403&v=app_2373072738) ( Danny )
I think the best plan of action would be to ignore Danny's negative behaviors.
"sweet cheeks" :D
Joel,
This is Danny's way of discrediting people and trying to get them embroiled into nonsensical arguments. He's derailed and destroyed several other forums this way. Better off just ignoring him.
No, this is Danny destroying your credibility, Che. You seem to think you are a expert on the TTI no matter what forum your speaking on. You seem to think you can say whatever you want, to whoever you please, however you want to say it. I am here to counter that and keep you honest. Especially when it comes to matters I feel are important.
You started this fight dip-shit so deal with it and stop crying. Please tell your brother that anytime he would like to grow a pair, we would all appreciate it.
Danny, your tough guy posturing really isn't doing you much in the way of crediting your argument. In the future I'm going to have to insist you refrain from attempting to bully others into submission. It hasn't yet worked for you on these forums and neither will it.
Well let me say this to ya my friend, when you want to stop bullying and controlling people you don't agree with or like (because you don't agree with them), I'll do it. Until then Che, you will be given what you give. I did not know this is what it was called Che, I am just doing the same thing you do /did to fellow members you don't like.
Why is it when you fuckers get what you give to others you start crying on the boards and I am sure in your case Che, wearing Ginger and Psy out with your chronic sniveling.
You don't hear me crying and since day one I have heard nothing else but how it is my fault, I do this and I do that.
Danny is not a tough guy and has never thought it was a plausible avenue to build credibility. Bullying, nope got the wrong guy, sorry. Read your paragraph Che, your almost contradicting yourself. One sentence, your saying I am attempting to bully folks into submission and in another, your saying it has not work and never will. Well if it is an attempt that is not happening and never will, then in essence you have something that never happened.
So why even bring it up, dip shit. This is what I mean about you, you are the instigator.
Danny, your inability to express yourself appropriately will make it so The Consequences Will Never Be The Same. Your upcoming treatment team meeting is most likely going to result in sanctions and possible loss of home visit. Right now you need to process your feelings regarding this possible loss of home visit and begin showing compliance with the program. Failure to show compliance will result in an unspecified period of time in which you'll be placed on non-communication with the rest of the group.
Your fate is in your own hands.
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Holiday Weekend
Mr popular Danny (the liar) Bennison is (of course) Trolling fornits as a result of his inability to co-exist in teh real world,with real people.
Bennison.. You need fucking help. Dont you ever quit ? Is this a replacement (transferrence) for your Herion Habit ?
I mean really.. Every thread every day ? Even when Sharon and I or Mark were at our worst,collectively we never posted the sheer number of posts you are responsible for every fucking day
WTF is wrong with you Bennison ?
Is anyone else seeing a pattern here ?
Bless you Danny.. you are injured
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Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
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Holiday Weekend
Mr popular Danny (the liar) Bennison is (of course) Trolling fornits as a result of his inability to co-exist in teh real world,with real people.
Bennison.. You need fucking help. Dont you ever quit ? Is this a replacement (transferrence) for your Herion Habit ?
I mean really.. Every thread every day ? Even when Sharon and I or Mark were at our worst,collectively we never posted the sheer number of posts you are responsible for every fucking day
WTF is wrong with you Bennison ?
Is anyone else seeing a pattern here ?
Bless you Danny.. you are injured
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Danny has a problem getting an erection, which is why he is so vitriolic (look it up, Danny) toward female posters here on Fornits.......
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Danny I read on http://www.elanalum.com/Forums/viewtopi ... 4035#p6540 (http://www.elanalum.com/Forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4035#p6540) you talked about "healing through words." I encourage you to do the same on fornits. [I am not being sarcastic]. Danny it would be great to see your input in the ELAN forum [on fornits], excluding flaming, personal attacks etc.
Joel, the Elan Alum and the facebook, Elan Site, are not even close to comparison to this site. First off I am amongst friends there, unless the Elanians from here straggle over there. I have told you before there are so many Elan folks who I fraternize with on a daily bases. Some of them only post on Elan Alum and others only post on the Facebook Elan Site, most do not post here at all and never have.
I came here to fornits by way of Felice, so that should tell you a lot. What I found here were a bunch of rude, sarcastic, degrading posters just fucking with certain people. Nothing has really changed, most of you are still in denial of how you act towards people and you really have no intention of changing your behavior.
I don't fit in and piss you off because I am attacking the "attackers". I purposely went after the posters who enjoy fucking with people, Joel you are one of them. Read your history.
Now if you would like to "turn the page" I am all for it. Start by changing yourself. Stop with the flaming, personal attacks, unruly PM's, ganging up on other posters, degrading new posters (children, mothers and fathers) and I will have no problem accommodating. Stop pointing the finger. Do not fuck with people who do not have your opinions.
If you can do this, I am in on your party wagon, if not then stop asking me to do something you are unwilling to do.
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Holiday Weekend
Mr popular Danny (the liar) Bennison is (of course) Trolling fornits as a result of his inability to co-exist in teh real world,with real people.
Bennison.. You need fucking help. Dont you ever quit ? Is this a replacement (transferrence) for your Herion Habit ?
I mean really.. Every thread every day ? Even when Sharon and I or Mark were at our worst,collectively we never posted the sheer number of posts you are responsible for every fucking day
WTF is wrong with you Bennison ?
Is anyone else seeing a pattern here ?
Bless you Danny.. you are injured
Che, you can not be serious.
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Che wrote:
Danny, your inability to express yourself appropriately will make it so The Consequences Will Never Be The Same. Your upcoming treatment team meeting is most likely going to result in sanctions and possible loss of home visit. Right now you need to process your feelings regarding this possible loss of home visit and begin showing compliance with the program. Failure to show compliance will result in an unspecified period of time in which you'll be placed on non-communication with the rest of the group.
Your fate is in your own hands.
Che, you really should be careful how you relate to survivors here, we are a sensitive lot. This type of language you chose to use with me (above) is very disrespectful. I believe it could only come from someone who was a Staff Member, why would you want to talk down to someone who suffered under such dehumanizing conditions. Are you not a moderator here on this Web Site. Is this the way you are going to publicize your redeeming qualities as a moderator.
Thank you very much for bringing back into focus a time in my life that was very traumatizing and belittling me for it.
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::evil::
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Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
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Danny I read on http://www.elanalum.com/Forums/viewtopi ... 4035#p6540 (http://www.elanalum.com/Forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4035#p6540) you talked about "healing through words." I encourage you to do the same on fornits. [I am not being sarcastic]. Danny it would be great to see your input in the ELAN forum [on fornits], excluding flaming, personal attacks etc.
Joel, the Elan Alum and the facebook, Elan Site, are not even close to comparison to this site. First off I am amongst friends there, unless the Elanians from here straggle over there. I have told you before there are so many Elan folks who I fraternize with on a daily bases. Some of them only post on Elan Alum and others only post on the Facebook Elan Site, most do not post here at all and never have.
I came here to fornits by way of Felice, so that should tell you a lot. What I found here were a bunch of rude, sarcastic, degrading posters just fucking with certain people. Nothing has really changed, most of you are still in denial of how you act towards people and you really have no intention of changing your behavior.
I don't fit in and piss you off because I am attacking the "attackers". I purposely went after the posters who enjoy fucking with people, Joel you are one of them. Read your history.
Now if you would like to "turn the page" I am all for it. Start by changing yourself. Stop with the flaming, personal attacks, unruly PM's, ganging up on other posters, degrading new posters (children, mothers and fathers) and I will have no problem accommodating. Stop pointing the finger. Do not fuck with people who do not have your opinions.
If you can do this, I am in on your party wagon, if not then stop asking me to do something you are unwilling to do.
Danny we will see how this works. I already have reservations in lieu of your profane response. Whereas I am still willing to work with you. The real test is whether or not you can ignore other people's attacks and refrain from bullying. I will speak to you again in one week about this process.
Hey Joel, why don't you do this stop communicating with me totally. Just go away. I think that would work well, you do not need to follow up in a week.
Just worry about Joel, spend your time working on shutting down Eckard. Become a positive force here like your brother.
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I see you are starting to work your way towards rejoining the group by refraining from cursing, threats, and posturing. Your next step on the path to success will be to begin accepting responsibility for your actions. Keep up the good work and do put effort into appropriately processing your feelings regarding your possible loss of home visit.
Work Will Set You Free.
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Well I can tell you as someone who has dealt with addiction, that it is a disease that lasts forever. There is no cure, and you never get over it. People that say otherwise are usually selling something, or have no experience with addiction themselves or with family members.
Well I can tell you as someone who has dealt with addiction, both personally and with family members, that it is not a disease and it does not have to last forever. That is a myth created to "keep coming back". The cure is to quit. If you can't quit alone, get some professional help not quackery that some Bella Donna and withdrawal induced whacko came up with in one of his "visions". Bill Wilson, Dr. Bob, the big book, 12 & 12 are treated as sacred. When anyone dares question the methods, the Stepcrafters go nuts and start attacking the people who dare to question them! Just like when someone questions the Scientologists. It's very similar and it does kill people.
I've been through many different forms of drug treatment, over the years. So far every single treatment center I've gone to had some form of AA meetings, and recovery ideas adopted within their treatment system.
Yup and they make a ton of money off of it.
The only facility I've been at that did not use AA in any way, is the private program I went to that has its own subforum here, they never mentioned anything related to AA even once. They actually believed in the ideology Psy tells people here, that we are all powerful people in charge of our choices, and being powerless is not an idea to embrace. According to the program we could choose to quit, and choose to be an addict or not. Now I have admitted that this program saved my life, and that's true, but I disagree with their philosophy about life being a series of choices.
Then no wonder you feel you need someone to tell you how to live your life.
Some things in our lives are and always be out of our control,
Yes, but it is up to us now we deal with those things.
like addiction.
You might feel that the addiction itself might not be a choice, but how you deal with it certainly is.
AA/NA and it's various groups are a large population of people, probably in the millions. Many different groups of people with various issues have adopted the AA model to form support groups for their own problems, more proof that many people think the AA model is effective for them.
No, that's not proof that it's effective.....its' proof that it's become popular.
The treatment centers I was in that adopted AA as part of their treatment program, were run by highly educated mental health professionals. Are we to believe that everyone from the treatment center employees, down to the person attending their community AA meeting is brainwashed, and part of a cult that works against their own interests?
Yes.
Common sense suggests that is highly unlikely.
Common sense tells us that humans are looking for "the answer". Just like snakeoil salesmen of the old days, AA swears they have it. Unfortunately Valliant's study proves that to be untrue and shows that AA actually raises the death level among alcoholics.
Perhaps AA/NA do work, and that is why treatment centers have invited them in, and so many different groups have decided to form their own version of anonymous support groups. Everytime a meeting occurs, people vote with their attendance, if AA did not help these people they would not show up, because they have no obligation to. Yet people continue to go. I've met people with 50 year sobriety chips, and I'd ask it's been so long why do you still come? They'd explain to me that they are still an alcoholic, and even 50 years later even one drink could lead them down the dark path that led them to AA in the first place. This supports the idea that addiction is a disease rather than a choice.
No, it doesn't. It supports the idea that humans are seeking "the answer" and will believe what they want or need to in order to get that answer.
The idea that drug or alcohol addiction is a choice, is nothing short of insulting. Addiction is a serious medical issue.
Then it should be dealt with by medical professionals, not the rantings of a certifiable lunatic like Bill Wilson who is so revered in "the rooms".
There are experiments using monkeys with drugs like cocaine, and given a choice of cocaine or food they choose to use cocaine and starve to death. Is that their "choice"?
Oh please!!! Their brains do not function cognitively the way ours do. Now you're just being ridiculous.
But what most people see is that the chemical changes the chemistry of the person to a degree, they make unhealthy choices to support their addiction, even if it costs them their own lives.
True, but that has nothing to do with AA.
Fornits posters think you should just ignore a person dealing with such serious addiction issues, and tell them "just quit, it's your choice".
No, what we've said is to seek real help, not the sham that is AA.
But other people like AA know it's a lot more complicated than that, and a long, long battle for some people, and choose to offer them a support group made up of people who also went through similar experiences. Only somebody who hasn't dealt with serious addiction could dismiss the life destroying cycle of addiction as a "choice", it simply is not accurate.
You keep saying that but you're completely wrong. There are plenty of us out here who have had damn serious drug problems and have successfully dealt with them without joining a cult-like group.
All of the people who willingly show up at AA/NA meetings going on across the country today, choose to go because something about AA works for them. Maybe you might not understand why, or how it works for them. But does that make you right, and them wrong? Is such a large group of people who willingly make that choice to attend a meeting, a cult?
There are millions of people attending Scientology. Just because they have large numbers does that mean they're not a cult?
No, of course not. But it's an easy way to dismiss what they are saying, and the hard reality that addiction is a serious disease.
That's your reality.
Fornits, on the other hand, is a relatively minuscule population compared to amount of people participating in AA. I think everybody can accept that fact. The few people who make fornits a regular part of their lives, were abused or had negative experiences in programs as underage youths.
Yes, so why do you insist on coming here and trying to cram your version of "help" down our throats? We were already "helped" almost to death and we're a little sick of it.
Some of these programs used a warped version of AA that resembles nothing of the AA in the free world.
Since I've been in both an extremely abusive program and in AA for a number of years, I can say that they are very similar in nature but AA does it in a much more subtle way. If they came at the newcomers like programs do, people would be running out of "the rooms" in droves.
Fornits takes a extreme political position regarding treatment, in that many posters here think treatment in any form is wrong.
I don't think I've ever heard someone say that here. Can you point me to a link showing where someone did?
That is not a mainstream position.
You seem to be under the misguided notion that just because something is considered mainstream that it makes it right.
Go talk to regular everyday people who don't read fornits about AA, drug treatment centers, or teen programs. Most people actually support these kind of treatment options, and most people know somebody who went to AA, or had serious addiction issues like a friend of family member.
I do, quite frequently. And I get a lot of them saying that they're glad they've got some moral support but that AA gets a little too creepy and controlling for them so they go and find some real help.
Fornits is a political conversation. Nowhere else could somebody make such a long argument against AA and be considered mainstream other than the internet, I'm sorry but this is true. Most people see it as a legitimate organization.
There you go again with "mainstream = right" idea.
On fornits it's a world where all programs are conspiring to hurt as many teens as possible and AA is a cult brainwashing people with dangerous thoughts.
No, that's your view of Fornits. You don't like that people actually challenge the "mainstream" notion that AA is good, so you throw your tantrums. Daily. If it works for you, great.....keep going back but quit trying to shove it down our throats.
If I never experienced programs, or AA I might be inclined to believe it, people here make some good arguments to suggest so.
Yes, we do. We also cite sources to back up our claims in addition to our own anecdotal experiences, although those are outright dismissed by you guys.
But I know that reality is a lot different than fornits reality,
Your reality is different than a lot of people's reality. So what? Why do you still insist on cramming it down our throats? It doesn't work for us and we've found evidence as to why it creeped us out so badly. Why can't you let us have our own views on it?
and it's not so black and white as people here like to portray it. Good things happen in "bad" programs, we might not like to admit it, but it's true.
Sure....and I became a much stronger person after I was raped, but I'd rather not have gone thru the torture just to get a little stronger.
AA is good thing, I'm sorry but this is true.
That's your truth.
I have yet to hear a reason why people here are so against AA, other than they think "it doesn't work".
Than, as I suspected, you haven't been paying attention. You don't like what we're saying, so you tune out the evidence we've provided for you.
So I am here to suggest that AA is not the cult.
Ok...you've suggested it. Can we move on now or are you going to continue to create thread after thread devoted to your beloved Stepcraft?
It is fornits, with it's extreme anti treatment opinions and agenda that is truly the cult. Fornits anti treatment ideology is based on a select number of experiences, reinforced with a forum designed to focus solely on these negative experiences.
"Fornits" isn't anything. It's a friggin message board.
When in reality, the people posting on fornits compared to the number who went to programs is relatively insignificant,
Then why do you bother devoting so much time to it?
people here take these limited number of experiences and use them to paint the entire industry with blood.
I know it makes you feel better to believe that our experiences are 'limited'....then you can dismiss them instead of actually trying to learn something.
Who can oppose treatment the most? This is where Aa comes in, it's not related to the troubled teen industry in any way.
Now I know you're delusional. You've said yourself that the wonderful people of AA/NA would devote their precious time to come in and indoctrinate, errr, talk to the kids.
Yet because it represents a form of treatment, something this forum is against, then it too must be condemned and intellectual arguments made to support this must be constructed.
You really don't read much of what we write, do you?
In the end though, it doesn't matter that fornits opposes AA, they will survive and thrive like they always have.
Again, then why do you devote thread after thread to the worship of Bill Wilson and his brand of quackery?
Fornits on the other hand seems to be getting slower over time, and less people are comfortable with the extremist anti treatment ideology here.
It's a friggin message board for people who were abused in programs to talk. That's it. You're trying to make it something it's not and then arguing against your fictional version of it.
AA is based on openness, and helping people. Fornits is now based on censoring and threatening inconvenient opinions, and telling people what to think. You can say whatever you want in an AA meeting and people will listen and not challenge you.
:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:
Unlike fornits is you dare suggest you had a positive experience in a program, you will be trolled with disgusting pictures, called a liar and be presented with countless conspiracy theories about "who you really are".
As Psy has pointed out to you, it happens here all the time. On the one hand y'all say that Fornits is insignificant, but on the other hand you guys go to the extremes of pretending to be program vets to counter what we're saying. If Fornits were so insignificant, you wouldn't bother...but you do, day after day after day in thread after thread after thread.
Fornits is paranoid, close minded and has an ideology built on the faulty foundation of generalizations and self centerednes.
Fornits is a goddamned message board, nothing more.
AA is exactly the opposite, they are open,
::) Sure they are. :lala:
and has an ideology built upon the foundation of the experiences of many alcoholics and addicts that collectively make up the organization.
They have an ideology built upon the rantings of a crazy man using Bella Donna and going thru extreme alcohol withdrawal.
Imagine you are an alcoholic/ addict. You might have made choices the first few times you used, but eventually you lost control and you finally had the realization about what people meant when they say addiction is a disease. You lose your job, your family, your house, all because you can't stop using. Then someone comes up and offers you help. Come to our group of people who went through what you did, and we will listen and not judge you. We want to help you recover and regain the life you had once before. They offer you help, a sober living place, and phone number to call when you feel like using, and tell you can call 24/7. These people who didn't know you, help you after your family and everybody else you knew dismissed you as a problematic alcoholic/addict. How would that make you feel?
Wonderful. It does feel great, in the beginning. That's how they start the indoctrination process. Later on, the control over your life starts and AA shows its true self.
But now imagine, you come to fornits and ask for advice. You explain that you lost everything because you are an alcoholic/addict and don't know how to help yourself. Then a red titled poster (must be the cult leader) shows up and tells you that everything in your life is a choice. You chose to lose your family, your home, and all your friends because you chose to be a alcoholic and drug addict. You have a bad habit, which you chose, and you can simply choose to stop using alcohol or drugs, if you really wanted to. You are not powerless over your addiction, you are in full control and the solution to all your problems is just to choose not to be an alcoholic or drug addict anymore. How would this make you feel?
Shitty, but sometimes reality sucks. If fact, quite often it sucks but it doesn't make it any less true. AA gives people a reason not to take personal responsibility for their actions.
If you can empathize with someone truly suffering from addiction, what option of help would you choose? Which would be more helpful to you, as a person? The answer is why fornits will remain a small, extremist cult of ideas, and AA will remain a successful, large community supported organization .
So you ask a question, don't wait for an answer and then slam Fornits for what you assume the answer would be. Nice.
Because one is true, and helpful. The other is insulting, and not helpful.
Where did you ever get the idea that Fornits is in the business of addiction therapy?
But lucky for us fornits is just a discussion forum, and the extremist rhetoric posted on this forum has no impact on the real world of AA and the people who choose to attend. There is a small group of people who post here who think that AA is a bad organization and should be avoided. But there are millions who make up meetings across the world every day, and as a silent majority they are not represented in fornits reality. But let's look at the big picture, AA will be around for a long time to come. Fornits? Probably not so much.
You keep saying that....a lot. But, again, you're here starting countless threads devoted to blasting the evil, yet impotent Fornits. You're a strange bird.
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Dang Anne... You broke it down nicely...Way to go, your words were eloquently written !!!
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Dang Anne... You broke it down nicely...Way to go, your words were eloquently written !!!
It's just gotten so ridiculous. They say Fornits is so insignificant, yet they devote so much time to attacking a frigging message board, even going to the extent of creating fictitious program vets. If Fornits is so insignificant then why does it warrant all their attention? It's like some batsignal goes off anytime anyone says something negative about AA and they come running to defend Bill and his brand of bullshit. How DARE anyone question the great and powerful Bill/AA. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!! ::)
And I seriously doubt they've even bothered to read through the Orange Papers, not that it's the be-all, end-all on the subject, but he's so completely well sourced and answers every single letter written to him. And no matter how nasty and vitriolic his critics get (and boy do they ever), he always answers respectfully.
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Yeah, I agree with you, they may have glimpsed and only that if even at the Orange Papers... They like their state of denial and are willing to go to any lengths to defend their precious "Step Cult Like Group."
I have done alot of thinking over the past few days since the topic was raised and Psy said it best when he said "You are not powerless." This was a very powerful statement if you think about it, when people go to a meeting sincerely wanting to quit, they have alread made a decision not to drink or drug or whatever. People control their own destiny through the choices they make. When people are forced against their wills to go to the these "Cult Like Meetings" they still have reservations in their minds as they are not ready to quit and then God fobid if they use they are critisized and made to feel guity over their actions which is total BS.
But you go questioning their dogmatic think process you will get what we have here as it threatens their mentality of group think, the group think has closed their minds to any sort of logical alternative that may be presented as they have already been basically assimilated and brain washed...
But again I agree with Psy:
"YOU ARE NOT POWERLESS"
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The fact is AA is very mainstream and many people voluntarily go to meetings everyday. But admitting this simple fact on fornits, means you are "creating fictitious program vets." How did you figure it out? All this time, I worked so hard at creating a fake "survivor" (is vets what the old-timer survivors call themselves?) just so I could convince people here that AA is great. I hoped nobody would find out but AA is paying me a lot of money to convince the final half dozen hold outs that reside on fornits, to come to meetings, then everybody in the world will love AA and all the critics silenced. What will I do now, that my cover has been blown?
Like I said the fact is AA remains mainstream. Fornits is considered extreme, to everybody associated or having experienced the Troubled Teen Industry. I am just relaying the reality of these two different organizations are perceived by most people. Perhaps you disagree, maybe when somebody needs help from being an addict their first thought is, well better go to fornits and ask for help. It's interesting that people consider a self help organization a cult, because it's views are so mainstream. Yet fornits insists all programs are evil, and should be shut down, based on a limited sample of experiences. Go talk to people in real life that are not fornits posters, and see if they agree with you that all treatment programs are bad, and should be shut down. Then ask if they think somebody who is an alcoholic should go to AA if they need help. Ask 10 people these questions, in real life, and see what they say. Then you will realize that this thread's question is very much accurate, that AA is mainstream and fornits is the cult.
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The fact is AA is very mainstream and many people voluntarily go to meetings everyday. But admitting this simple fact on fornits, means you are "creating fictitious program vets." How did you figure it out? All this time, I worked so hard at creating a fake "survivor" (is vets what the old-timer survivors call themselves?) just so I could convince people here that AA is great. I hoped nobody would find out but AA is paying me a lot of money to convince the final half dozen hold outs that reside on fornits, to come to meetings, then everybody in the world will love AA and all the critics silenced. What will I do now, that my cover has been blown?
Like I said the fact is AA remains mainstream. Fornits is considered extreme, to everybody associated or having experienced the Troubled Teen Industry. I am just relaying the reality of these two different organizations are perceived by most people. Perhaps you disagree, maybe when somebody needs help from being an addict their first thought is, well better go to fornits and ask for help. It's interesting that people consider a self help organization a cult, because it's views are so mainstream. Yet fornits insists all programs are evil, and should be shut down, based on a limited sample of experiences. Go talk to people in real life that are not fornits posters, and see if they agree with you that all treatment programs are bad, and should be shut down. Then ask if they think somebody who is an alcoholic should go to AA if they need help. Ask 10 people these questions, in real life, and see what they say. Then you will realize that this thread's question is very much accurate, that AA is mainstream and fornits is the cult.
Hey Max... Why does it bother you so bad that the few of us have our own thoughts about AA... Did you not learn the slogan "Live an Let Live" in AA... We were not personally attacking you per say, however each time one of us that have something negative to say, you or one of the others quickly run and start a rebuttal. Surely you could go to AA websites and preach to the choir, but here you come to Fornits which you call a cult and try to change our way of thinking... I am not powerless, I make my own destiny through my own decisions and do not rely on others to validate my existance or whether my thinking process is off.
PS Would you not be happier talking to people that share your thought process and belief system rather than trying to force it on other people who don't ???
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The fact is AA is very mainstream and many people voluntarily go to meetings everyday.
Why do you equate mainstream with correct?
But admitting this simple fact on fornits, means you are "creating fictitious program vets."
No, the whole Whooter/SUCK IT debacle proved it quite nicely.
Like I said the fact is AA remains mainstream.
So what? That doesn't mean it's right.
Fornits is considered extreme, to everybody associated or having experienced the Troubled Teen Industry.
Again, so what? It's just a message board, but apparently it's really hit a nerve with you or you wouldn't spend so much time here defending your precious cult-like group and its insane creator.
I am just relaying the reality of these two different organizations are perceived by most people.
So now you claim to speak for "most people"? You're relating YOUR reality, which bears no resemblance at all to actual reality.
Perhaps you disagree, maybe when somebody needs help from being an addict their first thought is, well better go to fornits and ask for help.
Where the hell did you get that idea? Fornits isn't a 'self help group'. It isn't anything except a place where people who've been abused at the hands of programs and "for their own good" can come and talk about it. You give it (Fornits) a lot more credit than it deserves. Again, it must have really hit a nerve with you. But it's typical of cultists to get extremely defensive when they hear criticisms of their perceived savior. Perfect example is Scientology. Y'all remind me a lot of them.
It's interesting that people consider a self help organization a cult, because it's views are so mainstream.
You really don't get it at all....or you're just selectively reading so you don't have to hear anything you don't want to. Nobody said all self help organizations are cults (can you point me to a post where someone did that?)
Yet fornits insists all programs are evil, and should be shut down, based on a limited sample of experiences.
Again...no. What a lot of people on Fornits have said (Fornits itself hasn't said anything....you really need to understand the difference between a message board and the different people who post on it) is that programs that utilize the LGAT style methods are abusive and should be shut down.
Go talk to people in real life that are not fornits posters, and see if they agree with you that all treatment programs are bad, and should be shut down.
See my response directly above this one.
Then ask if they think somebody who is an alcoholic should go to AA if they need help. Ask 10 people these questions, in real life, and see what they say. Then you will realize that this thread's question is very much accurate, that AA is mainstream and fornits is the cult.
There you go again with equating mainstream with correct or right or good. Why do you do that? Bloodletting used to be considered mainstream, people with mental illness were considered possessed by demons and that used to be mainstream, the Earth being flat used to be considered mainstream. Take responsibility for your own actions instead of blaming it on a "disease".
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The fact is AA is very mainstream and many people voluntarily go to meetings everyday. But admitting this simple fact on fornits, means you are "creating fictitious program vets." How did you figure it out? All this time, I worked so hard at creating a fake "survivor" (is vets what the old-timer survivors call themselves?) just so I could convince people here that AA is great. I hoped nobody would find out but AA is paying me a lot of money to convince the final half dozen hold outs that reside on fornits, to come to meetings, then everybody in the world will love AA and all the critics silenced. What will I do now, that my cover has been blown?
Like I said the fact is AA remains mainstream. Fornits is considered extreme, to everybody associated or having experienced the Troubled Teen Industry. I am just relaying the reality of these two different organizations are perceived by most people. Perhaps you disagree, maybe when somebody needs help from being an addict their first thought is, well better go to fornits and ask for help. It's interesting that people consider a self help organization a cult, because it's views are so mainstream. Yet fornits insists all programs are evil, and should be shut down, based on a limited sample of experiences. Go talk to people in real life that are not fornits posters, and see if they agree with you that all treatment programs are bad, and should be shut down. Then ask if they think somebody who is an alcoholic should go to AA if they need help. Ask 10 people these questions, in real life, and see what they say. Then you will realize that this thread's question is very much accurate, that AA is mainstream and fornits is the cult.
Hey Max... Why does it bother you so bad that the few of us have our own thoughts about AA... Did you not learn the slogan "Live an Let Live" in AA... We were not personally attacking you per say, however each time one of us that have something negative to say, you or one of the others quickly run and start a rebuttal. Surely you could go to AA websites and preach to the choir, but here you come to Fornits which you call a cult and try to change our way of thinking... I am not powerless, I make my own destiny through my own decisions and do not rely on others to validate my existance or whether my thinking process is off.
PS Would you not be happier talking to people that share your thought process and belief system rather than trying to force it on other people who don't ???
What you are describing is a discussion forum. A person introduces an idea, as I did by starting this thread. People can come and post rebuttals, as many have, and I can post counter arguments. It doesn't bother me in the least people don't like AA, the organization will survive. You should ask yourself, why does it bother people here so much that AA saved my life? Or does it bother people because I like to share it here? Because I am one of many that had a life saving experience with AA. How am I trying to change your way of thinking? Because I introduce ideas that are not accepted by the group here? People are free to believe what they want, and post about it. I don't feel the need to surround myself with people who agree with me, as many seem inclined to want to do on fornits. You are free to start as many anti AA threads as you want, I'm not stopping you. So I will continue to post here and argue my own opinions and ideas, as should everybody else. Why don't you go hang out on orange papers all the time, since you think I should go to pro AA forums? I disagree with you that posting threads on fornits is in any way forcing people to agree with me, people are free to ignore me and my threads, this is common sense. But I think it's really all part of defining a victim vs aggressor, in this case people want to paint me as an aggressor for having certain ideas. That's dishonest, but it's an expected part of the self victimizing that goes on here on fornits regularly.
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The fact is AA is very mainstream and many people voluntarily go to meetings everyday. But admitting this simple fact on fornits, means you are "creating fictitious program vets." How did you figure it out? All this time, I worked so hard at creating a fake "survivor" (is vets what the old-timer survivors call themselves?) just so I could convince people here that AA is great. I hoped nobody would find out but AA is paying me a lot of money to convince the final half dozen hold outs that reside on fornits, to come to meetings, then everybody in the world will love AA and all the critics silenced. What will I do now, that my cover has been blown?
Like I said the fact is AA remains mainstream. Fornits is considered extreme, to everybody associated or having experienced the Troubled Teen Industry. I am just relaying the reality of these two different organizations are perceived by most people. Perhaps you disagree, maybe when somebody needs help from being an addict their first thought is, well better go to fornits and ask for help. It's interesting that people consider a self help organization a cult, because it's views are so mainstream. Yet fornits insists all programs are evil, and should be shut down, based on a limited sample of experiences. Go talk to people in real life that are not fornits posters, and see if they agree with you that all treatment programs are bad, and should be shut down. Then ask if they think somebody who is an alcoholic should go to AA if they need help. Ask 10 people these questions, in real life, and see what they say. Then you will realize that this thread's question is very much accurate, that AA is mainstream and fornits is the cult.
Hey Max... Why does it bother you so bad that the few of us have our own thoughts about AA... Did you not learn the slogan "Live an Let Live" in AA... We were not personally attacking you per say, however each time one of us that have something negative to say, you or one of the others quickly run and start a rebuttal. Surely you could go to AA websites and preach to the choir, but here you come to Fornits which you call a cult and try to change our way of thinking... I am not powerless, I make my own destiny through my own decisions and do not rely on others to validate my existance or whether my thinking process is off.
PS Would you not be happier talking to people that share your thought process and belief system rather than trying to force it on other people who don't ???
What you are describing is a discussion forum. A person introduces an idea, as I did by starting this thread. People can come and post rebuttals, as many have, and I can post counter arguments. It doesn't bother me in the least people don't like AA, the organization will survive. You should ask yourself, why does it bother people here so much that AA saved my life? Or does it bother people because I like to share it here? Because I am one of many that had a life saving experience with AA. How am I trying to change your way of thinking? Because I introduce ideas that are not accepted by the group here? People are free to believe what they want, and post about it. I don't feel the need to surround myself with people who agree with me, as many seem inclined to want to do on fornits. You are free to start as many anti AA threads as you want, I'm not stopping you. So I will continue to post here and argue my own opinions and ideas, as should everybody else. Why don't you go hang out on orange papers all the time, since you think I should go to pro AA forums? I disagree with you that posting threads on fornits is in any way forcing people to agree with me, people are free to ignore me and my threads, this is common sense. But I think it's really all part of defining a victim vs aggressor, in this case people want to paint me as an aggressor for having certain ideas. That's dishonest, but it's an expected part of the self victimizing that goes on here on fornits regularly.
But even when the debate settles down, you start yet another AA thread in the hopes of starting the arguing up again. You can't stand the fact that people disagree with AA and it's teachings so you're bound and determined to plaster Fornits with more propaganda via so many AA threads. It's borderline spamming, IMO. I thought AA was supposed to be a program of attraction, not advertising which is basically what you're doing.
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So it's fine that Psy starts a thread about AA, or Botched starts several. But when I introduce a well thought out argument about why AA is mainstream and fornits is considered extreme end of the treatment political spectrum, suddenly it's spam. When you start condemning people for posting disgusting pictures, or their own AA threads, or all the other bullshit that gets posted here I might just take you a little bit more seriously. But it's obvious that you are the one who is here to start an argument, and unload your AA hatred. If you think I am spamming this forum, the best action for you to take would be to ignore me. Not to spend so much time chopping up my posts and responding one line at a time. That must take some time, right? Surely you have better things to do, maybe like boating, beaches sun and fun or whatever. This is not AA advertising, but I know why you want to claim it is, then you can ban me by saying I'm an paid AA spammer or something. What a weak argument to make, come back when you got something better.
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During my many years in the rooms of AA and NA... ( NA Mostly) we were taught to live with the world harmonously, not to be in conflict where ever the AA or NA name was concerned. We were taught that attraction came from us walking the walk not talking the talk. When it came to living harmonously we did not have to argue our point we could agree to disagree and let things die... Remember "Live and let Live" or my version of it was if it don't fit don't force it... I am not trying to persuade you to our way of thinking however you continious post on the matter shows a fact of life that you can not live with, there are people who do not want the life of an AA'er.. If that is the life you choose, more power to you, that is your free will.. You are not powerless you make that choice.
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So it's fine that Psy starts a thread about AA, or Botched starts several. But when I introduce a well thought out argument about why AA is mainstream and fornits is considered extreme end of the treatment political spectrum, suddenly it's spam. When you start condemning people for posting disgusting pictures, or their own AA threads, or all the other bullshit that gets posted here I might just take you a little bit more seriously. But it's obvious that you are the one who is here to start an argument, and unload your AA hatred. If you think I am spamming this forum, the best action for you to take would be to ignore me. Not to spend so much time chopping up my posts and responding one line at a time. That must take some time, right? Surely you have better things to do, maybe like boating, beaches sun and fun or whatever. This is not AA advertising, but I know why you want to claim it is, then you can ban me by saying I'm an paid AA spammer or something. What a weak argument to make, come back when you got something better.
What a troll!
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So it's fine that Psy starts a thread about AA, or Botched starts several. But when I introduce a well thought out argument about why AA is mainstream and fornits is considered extreme end of the treatment political spectrum, suddenly it's spam. When you start condemning people for posting disgusting pictures, or their own AA threads, or all the other bullshit that gets posted here I might just take you a little bit more seriously. But it's obvious that you are the one who is here to start an argument, and unload your AA hatred. If you think I am spamming this forum, the best action for you to take would be to ignore me. Not to spend so much time chopping up my posts and responding one line at a time. That must take some time, right? Surely you have better things to do, maybe like boating, beaches sun and fun or whatever. This is not AA advertising, but I know why you want to claim it is, then you can ban me by saying I'm an paid AA spammer or something. What a weak argument to make, come back when you got something better.
Much as I disagree with your views on AA, I have to agree you have a right to post what you want.
People should just ignore your posts (like I usually do) if they don't want an argument or debate about it.
And if they consider you a troll then don't feed the trolls!! :beat:
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Point taken
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So it's fine that Psy starts a thread about AA, or Botched starts several. But when I introduce a well thought out argument about why AA is mainstream and fornits is considered extreme end of the treatment political spectrum, suddenly it's spam.
There's a difference between posting a few AA threads and the sheer amount of them that you start.
When you start condemning people for posting disgusting pictures, or their own AA threads, or all the other bullshit that gets posted here I might just take you a little bit more seriously.
Quite frankly, I could give a damn if you take me seriously or not.
But it's obvious that you are the one who is here to start an argument, and unload your AA hatred.
Nope, just spreading what I believe is the truth. I've seen the damage AA has done personally, both to myself and to some people that I love dearly.
If you think I am spamming this forum, the best action for you to take would be to ignore me. Not to spend so much time chopping up my posts and responding one line at a time. That must take some time, right?
Not really. I type pretty fast.
Surely you have better things to do, maybe like boating, beaches sun and fun or whatever.
Which is why I'm on the boat or at the beach you don't see me posting.
This is not AA advertising, but I know why you want to claim it is, then you can ban me by saying I'm an paid AA spammer or something. What a weak argument to make, come back when you got something better.
I don't think you're being paid to do this at all!! I think you, sadly, truly believe what you're saying and believe it or not, I feel badly for you. I don't want you banned...hell I don't want anyone banned (with the possible exception of Whooter because I truly believe his motives for posting here are for his own financial gain).
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During my many years in the rooms of AA and NA... ( NA Mostly) we were taught to live with the world harmonously, not to be in conflict where ever the AA or NA name was concerned. We were taught that attraction came from us walking the walk not talking the talk. When it came to living harmonously we did not have to argue our point we could agree to disagree and let things die... Remember "Live and let Live" or my version of it was if it don't fit don't force it... I am not trying to persuade you to our way of thinking however you continious post on the matter shows a fact of life that you can not live with, there are people who do not want the life of an AA'er.. If that is the life you choose, more power to you, that is your free will.. You are not powerless you make that choice.
Well I don't see a discussion forum as a conflict. You choose to put flyers on the cars of people outside AA meetings. Now if I spent every weekend night going around to local bars and putting AA flyers on cars, what would you all say about that? I could care less if people don't want to be a part of AA, most people are not. But I do disagree with the stuff posted here about AA, and so I choose to make a counter argument, in an open free for all forum dedicated to the treatment industry. People are free to ignore me and my threads, I won't mind at all. I really could do without all the accusations, or people asking me to shut up and go away, those type of posts are a waste of everybody's time. So does someone who casually posts on a discussion forum on topic really have a difficult time letting live and let live, or a person who spends their free time passing out flyers on cars at AA meetings?
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There's a difference between posting a few AA threads and the sheer amount of them that you start.
You count up all the threads I've started about AA and report back to us with the staggeringly high number, how about that? Until then I'll just chalk this up to the typical fornits double standard that I so typically see in replies to my arguments.
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During my many years in the rooms of AA and NA... ( NA Mostly) we were taught to live with the world harmonously, not to be in conflict where ever the AA or NA name was concerned. We were taught that attraction came from us walking the walk not talking the talk. When it came to living harmonously we did not have to argue our point we could agree to disagree and let things die... Remember "Live and let Live" or my version of it was if it don't fit don't force it... I am not trying to persuade you to our way of thinking however you continious post on the matter shows a fact of life that you can not live with, there are people who do not want the life of an AA'er.. If that is the life you choose, more power to you, that is your free will.. You are not powerless you make that choice.
Yep. If anything, his posts and Danny's do more damage to AA's credibility than we do. It shows the kind of 'change' that AA produces.
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Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
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Much as I disagree with your views on AA, I have to agree you have a right to post what you want.
I don't disagree with that. Of course he has the right to post what he wants, as I have the right to post a respose.
People should just ignore your posts (like I usually do) if they don't want an argument or debate about it.
It passes the time at work when I'm bored.
And if they consider you a troll then don't feed the trolls!! :beat:
I don't think he's a troll, I think he truly believes what he's saying.
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During my many years in the rooms of AA and NA... ( NA Mostly) we were taught to live with the world harmonously, not to be in conflict where ever the AA or NA name was concerned. We were taught that attraction came from us walking the walk not talking the talk. When it came to living harmonously we did not have to argue our point we could agree to disagree and let things die... Remember "Live and let Live" or my version of it was if it don't fit don't force it... I am not trying to persuade you to our way of thinking however you continious post on the matter shows a fact of life that you can not live with, there are people who do not want the life of an AA'er.. If that is the life you choose, more power to you, that is your free will.. You are not powerless you make that choice.
Well I don't see a discussion forum as a conflict. You choose to put flyers on the cars of people outside AA meetings. Now if I spent every weekend night going around to local bars and putting AA flyers on cars, what would you all say about that? I could care less if people don't want to be a part of AA, most people are not. But I do disagree with the stuff posted here about AA, and so I choose to make a counter argument, in an open free for all forum dedicated to the treatment industry. People are free to ignore me and my threads, I won't mind at all. I really could do without all the accusations, or people asking me to shut up and go away, those type of posts are a waste of everybody's time. So does someone who casually posts on a discussion forum on topic really have a difficult time letting live and let live, or a person who spends their free time passing out flyers on cars at AA meetings?
As I have said I am no longer a part of AA.. so hence I have not conflict with bring the name into public contraversy... AA's 11th tradition for members state that the AA name never be brought into public contraversy by it's members... They have a Public ralations comittee who should deal with them.. Are you perhaps on the PR committee?? If not you are in direct violation of said fellowships traditions and are not setting a good example of the fellowship.
As Far as me passing out fliers and giving people a choice over the Group think mentality and letting them know they are not powerless.. I have that responsibility as I am no longer a member of said fellowship. If in fact you are a member I would suggest you talk to your sponsor or your local intergroup office before bringing the AA name in contraversy on a forum to see what their suggestions to you would be.
just food for thought.
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Yep. If anything, his posts and Danny's do more damage to AA's credibility than we do. It shows the kind of 'change' that AA produces.
Whatever helps you sleep at night. But go to AA's website and search for meetings in your local area. Most likely is there are many, and they are usually categorized into all the various types. Woman's, Men's, Gay/Lesbian, and all the different types of groups. AA is actually very inclusive, so much so that there is a group for almost anybody who wants to seek help for an addiction issue that is effecting them negatively. Fornits is a very small group of people compared to an organization as large as AA, you really can't even compare the two. The fact is the postings on fornits will not effect AA's credibility, or it's attendance, or how people feel about it. These arguments don't effect anybody other than ourselves, it gives us a place to argue our beliefs and hear the opinions of other people, some of whom might agree or disagree with our own views. I don't see fornits as the jury chamber of what will happen in the treatment industry, as some do here, because it's just not true. I am just one AA supporter among millions, and there happen to be some people here who dislike AA so it usually starts a spirited debate when the topic comes up. Let's not assume their our relatively obscure debates on the internet effect whether people attend AA or not.
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During my many years in the rooms of AA and NA... ( NA Mostly) we were taught to live with the world harmonously, not to be in conflict where ever the AA or NA name was concerned. We were taught that attraction came from us walking the walk not talking the talk. When it came to living harmonously we did not have to argue our point we could agree to disagree and let things die... Remember "Live and let Live" or my version of it was if it don't fit don't force it... I am not trying to persuade you to our way of thinking however you continious post on the matter shows a fact of life that you can not live with, there are people who do not want the life of an AA'er.. If that is the life you choose, more power to you, that is your free will.. You are not powerless you make that choice.
Well I don't see a discussion forum as a conflict. You choose to put flyers on the cars of people outside AA meetings. Now if I spent every weekend night going around to local bars and putting AA flyers on cars, what would you all say about that? I could care less if people don't want to be a part of AA, most people are not. But I do disagree with the stuff posted here about AA, and so I choose to make a counter argument, in an open free for all forum dedicated to the treatment industry. People are free to ignore me and my threads, I won't mind at all. I really could do without all the accusations, or people asking me to shut up and go away, those type of posts are a waste of everybody's time. So does someone who casually posts on a discussion forum on topic really have a difficult time letting live and let live, or a person who spends their free time passing out flyers on cars at AA meetings?
As I have said I am no longer a part of AA.. so hence I have not conflict with bring the name into public contraversy... AA's 11th tradition for members state that the AA name never be brought into public contraversy by it's members... They have a Public ralations comittee who should deal with them.. Are you perhaps on the PR committee?? If not you are in direct violation of said fellowships traditions and are not setting a good example of the fellowship.
As Far as me passing out fliers and giving people a choice over the Group think mentality and letting them know they are not powerless.. I have that responsibility as I am no longer a member of said fellowship. If in fact you are a member I would suggest you talk to your sponsor or your local intergroup office before bringing the AA name in contraversy on a forum to see what their suggestions to you would be.
just food for thought.
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As I have said I am no longer a part of AA.. so hence I have not conflict with bring the name into public contraversy... AA's 11th tradition for members state that the AA name never be brought into public contraversy by it's members... They have a Public ralations comittee who should deal with them.. Are you perhaps on the PR committee?? If not you are in direct violation of said fellowships traditions and are not setting a good example of the fellowship.
Uh-oh. Well if I might be offending my cult leaders, I best shut up then, right? Nice try, I"ll give you that. :D
As Far as me passing out fliers and giving people a choice over the Group think mentality and letting them know they are not powerless.. I have that responsibility as I am no longer a member of said fellowship. If in fact you are a member I would suggest you talk to your sponsor or your local intergroup office before bringing the AA name in contraversy on a forum to see what their suggestions to you would be.
just food for thought.
I don't need to ask anybody's permission to post on a forum about AA. But what if I did spend my free time passing out AA flyers out at bars on their windshields out in the parking lot? What would people here say about me?
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Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
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But go to AA's website and search for meetings in your local area. Most likely is there are many, and they are usually categorized into all the various types. Woman's, Men's, Gay/Lesbian, and all the different types of groups.
Yup, I've been to many, many of them. Tried different "home groups", different sponsors and couldn't shake the cult-like feeling.
AA is actually very inclusive, so much so that there is a group for almost anybody who wants to seek help for an addiction issue that is effecting them negatively. Fornits is a very small group of people compared to an organization as large as AA, you really can't even compare the two. The fact is the postings on fornits will not effect AA's credibility, or it's attendance, or how people feel about it. These arguments don't effect anybody other than ourselves,
Well, that's not exactly true. I've had quite a few people contact me off the boards after reading thru the Orange Papers stuff that I've posted and thanked me for releasing them from the groupthink. But I suspect you won't believe that, just as Danny didn't believe that I spent last (not this) weekend helping someone who's sponsor told them to go off their anti-depressants cold turkey and that "god would take care of it".
And I'm still waiting to find out why you consider 'mainstream' to equal good/right/correct.
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As I have said I am no longer a part of AA.. so hence I have not conflict with bring the name into public contraversy... AA's 11th tradition for members state that the AA name never be brought into public contraversy by it's members... They have a Public ralations comittee who should deal with them.. Are you perhaps on the PR committee?? If not you are in direct violation of said fellowships traditions and are not setting a good example of the fellowship.
Uh-oh. Well if I might be offending my cult leaders, I best shut up then, right? Nice try, I"ll give you that. :D
As Far as me passing out fliers and giving people a choice over the Group think mentality and letting them know they are not powerless.. I have that responsibility as I am no longer a member of said fellowship. If in fact you are a member I would suggest you talk to your sponsor or your local intergroup office before bringing the AA name in contraversy on a forum to see what their suggestions to you would be.
just food for thought.
I don't need to ask anybody's permission to post on a forum about AA. But what if I did spend my free time passing out AA flyers out at bars on their windshields out in the parking lot? What would people here say about me ?
(1) I take it that you are scared to be honest with your sponsor and the intergroup as you are in fear of what they may say to you.
(2) Yes you do need permission if you are in fact a member of said fellowship. Denial of this would lead me to believe you have never studied your fellowships traditions
(3) I Have seen AA and NA meeting list on cars at bars before... So don't give me that...
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Well, that's not exactly true. I've had quite a few people contact me off the boards after reading thru the Orange Papers stuff that I've posted and thanked me for releasing them from the groupthink. But I suspect you won't believe that, just as Danny didn't believe that I spent last (not this) weekend helping someone who's sponsor told them to go off their anti-depressants cold turkey and that "god would take care of it".
And I'm still waiting to find out why you consider 'mainstream' to equal good/right/correct.
Well to be fair, AA is mainstream in comparison to fornits, but the most mainstream thing is to use alcohol. Being part of AA, and then trying to go out with your old friends who all drink can quickly make you feel like an outsider. This is the reason become a part of AA, and make new friends. So in that sense, I think drinking culture is actually the most mainstream idea out there in relation to alcohol. It's generally accepted to get drunk every weekend, probably even more so than staying completely sober and doing other things. When you go to a party or a wedding and everybody is drinking, and you say no thanks I don't drink, you do get some strange looks sometimes. So you're right, what is mainstream might not necessarily be a better path. This thread was not about whether AA is ethical or unethical , it's about whether a small group of anti treatment extremists (and yes the views here are extreme) calling a large organization like AA a cult, is not an example of the pot calling the kettle black.
As far as sponsors go, I'm not here to defend the individual actions of every person who has been a part of AA. If somebody tells you to go off medication, and you think it helps then they might want to find a new sponsor. Or maybe they will avoid AA altogether and find sobriety through medication/therapy/psychiatry. To each their own. Personally, I prefer AA to psychiatry, but I wouldn't pressure someone who felt the other way around to change their mind. You said you tried out different AA groups, did they attempt to force you to come to meetings when you decided it didn't work for you? I doubt it. It obviously works for a lot of people though, judging by the amount of meetings going on everyday. Just like psychiatry seems to work for a lot of people, judging by the amount of pharmaceutical advertisements in all forms of media. People are free to choose what works for them.
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But what if I did spend my free time passing out AA flyers out at bars on their windshields out in the parking lot? What would people here say about me?
Nothing....it happens all the time.
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(1) I take it that you are scared to be honest with your sponsor and the intergroup as you are in fear of what they may say to you.
2) Yes you do need permission if you are in fact a member of said fellowship. Denial of this would lead me to believe you have never studied your fellowships traditions
Whatever you say. You can report me to the AA elders if you wish, hopefully they will not burn me at the stake like the last person who made the mistake of discussing AA without he permission of the elders.
(3) I Have seen AA and NA meeting list on cars at bars before... So don't give me that...
Yet, I'm not the one doing it. If people want to get drunk, I could care less. If people want to go to AA and get sober, great, But I'm not going to spend my money and time trying to convince people with flyers on cars. I live and let live, unlike you.
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But what if I did spend my free time passing out AA flyers out at bars on their windshields out in the parking lot? What would people here say about me?
Nothing....it happens all the time.
I think people would call me a cult freak, and bring it up all the time in example of how crazy I was. But let's think about it logically, have more people been killed by AA, or by drivers going home drunk from a bar? So which action, is more likely to result in the real world result of saving a person's life? I've seen the result of drunk driving accidents and people dying from it, so anything that prevents that is a good thing in my opinion. Even better than AA schedules would be the number for a taxi company or one of those volunteer sober drivers (a great use of somebody's time I think).
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(1) I take it that you are scared to be honest with your sponsor and the intergroup as you are in fear of what they may say to you.
2) Yes you do need permission if you are in fact a member of said fellowship. Denial of this would lead me to believe you have never studied your fellowships traditions
Whatever you say. You can report me to the AA elders if you wish, hopefully they will not burn me at the stake like the last person who made the mistake of discussing AA without he permission of the elders.
(3) I Have seen AA and NA meeting list on cars at bars before... So don't give me that...
Yet, I'm not the one doing it. If people want to get drunk, I could care less. If people want to go to AA and get sober, great, But I'm not going to spend my money and time trying to convince people with flyers on cars. I live and let live, unlike you.
Sorry Max that you do not respect your fellowship enough to abide by their "Traditions"
Tradition defined
a continuing pattern of culture beliefs or practices.
I unlike you allow people to make their own decision about what they read in my fliers.. I do not stand there and try to push my belifs on them or try to persuade them to my way of thinking.. They have free will... They are not powerless.
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But what if I did spend my free time passing out AA flyers out at bars on their windshields out in the parking lot? What would people here say about me?
Nothing....it happens all the time.
I think people would call me a cult freak, and bring it up all the time in example of how crazy I was. But let's think about it logically, have more people been killed by AA, or by drivers going home drunk from a bar? So which action, is more likely to result in the real world result of saving a person's life? I've seen the result of drunk driving accidents and people dying from it, so anything that prevents that is a good thing in my opinion. Even better than AA schedules would be the number for a taxi company or one of those volunteer sober drivers (a great use of somebody's time I think).
There is no data showing how many sponsors have told their sponsees to quit taking meds and the sponsee ened up in the hospital or psyc ward somewhere.
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(1) I take it that you are scared to be honest with your sponsor and the intergroup as you are in fear of what they may say to you.
2) Yes you do need permission if you are in fact a member of said fellowship. Denial of this would lead me to believe you have never studied your fellowships traditions
Whatever you say. You can report me to the AA elders if you wish, hopefully they will not burn me at the stake like the last person who made the mistake of discussing AA without he permission of the elders.
(3) I Have seen AA and NA meeting list on cars at bars before... So don't give me that...
Yet, I'm not the one doing it. If people want to get drunk, I could care less. If people want to go to AA and get sober, great, But I'm not going to spend my money and time trying to convince people with flyers on cars. I live and let live, unlike you.
Sorry Max that you do not respect your fellowship enough to abide by their "Traditions"
Tradition defined
a continuing pattern of culture beliefs or practices.
I unlike you allow people to make their own decision about what they read in my fliers.. I do not stand there and try to push my belifs on them or try to persuade them to my way of thinking.. They have free will... They are not powerless.
Sure thing. But I'm not the one out there passing out flyers on cars on my free time and on my own dime, think about that. Please don't contact the AA elders and have me excommunicated though, please? That last person who dared discuss AA online was sentenced to burn at the stake, and I don't want my young children to witness that.
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There is no data showing how many sponsors have told their sponsees to quit taking meds and the sponsee ened up in the hospital or psyc ward somewhere.
The thing is I don't assume everybody is stupid. People know best what works for them, and they are free to choose whether they want to participate in AA or psychiatry, or whatever they think helps them. Plenty of people try AA and walk out and think it doesn't work, good for them. But there are also millions of people who keep showing up because it works for them. If people want to stop taking their meds, that's their choice. The point of this thread is simply that many more people believe in AA and it's ideology than the extremist anti treatment ideology of those who post on fornits.
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(1) I take it that you are scared to be honest with your sponsor and the intergroup as you are in fear of what they may say to you.
2) Yes you do need permission if you are in fact a member of said fellowship. Denial of this would lead me to believe you have never studied your fellowships traditions
Whatever you say. You can report me to the AA elders if you wish, hopefully they will not burn me at the stake like the last person who made the mistake of discussing AA without he permission of the elders.
(3) I Have seen AA and NA meeting list on cars at bars before... So don't give me that...
Yet, I'm not the one doing it. If people want to get drunk, I could care less. If people want to go to AA and get sober, great, But I'm not going to spend my money and time trying to convince people with flyers on cars. I live and let live, unlike you.
Sorry Max that you do not respect your fellowship enough to abide by their "Traditions"
Tradition defined
a continuing pattern of culture beliefs or practices.
I unlike you allow people to make their own decision about what they read in my fliers.. I do not stand there and try to push my belifs on them or try to persuade them to my way of thinking.. They have free will... They are not powerless.
Sure thing. But I'm not the one out there passing out flyers on cars on my free time and on my own dime, think about that. Please don't contact the AA elders and have me excommunicated though, please? That last person who dared discuss AA online was sentenced to burn at the stake, and I don't want my young children to witness that.
I feel sorry for you Max.. how much time have you got... How much of your time have you dedicated out to sponsees..How many of the newcomers have you fed on your own dime to make them feel a part of..No worse than the money and time I have spent on fliers.
As far as your childish comments about informing the elders, you know it is your own conscious that you have to live with on that so quit being rediculious.. If you are as big into AA as you claim you would have no objection to brining this matter up to your sponsor...I know I was big enough of a man to...
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I feel sorry for you Max.. how much time have you got... How much of your time have you dedicated out to sponsees..How many of the newcomers have you fed on your own dime to make them feel a part of..No worse than the money and time I have spent on fliers.
As far as your childish comments about informing the elders, you know it is your own conscious that you have to live with on that so quit being rediculious.. If you are as big into AA as you claim you would have no objection to brining this matter up to your sponsor...I know I was big enough of a man to...
At this point you have moved beyond making a logical argument, and into the realm of manipulation and assumptions, so there is nothing left to discuss it seems. I appreciate your pity, I really do. I live with myself quite contently, and have a clear conscience and sleep very well at night. I don't feel like I'm being ridiculous, and your attempt of emasculation with the last sentence is a typical manipulation when someone is lacking a legitimate argument. "If only you were a real man, you'd do this", how many times does this or a variant of this get put on the internet? There is no shortage of internet tough guys out there, that's for sure. I'll be here if you have an argument to make, or you can just keep making assumptions about me and what I need to do. It doesn't really bother me either way. People know when they are ready to have a mature and adult conversation minus the emotional hyperbole they can come to me.
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At this point you have moved beyond making a logical argument, and into the realm of manipulation and assumptions, so there is nothing left to discuss it seems. I appreciate your pity, I really do. I live with myself quite contently, and have a clear conscience and sleep very well at night. I don't feel like I'm being ridiculous, and your attempt of emasculation with the last sentence is a typical manipulation when someone is lacking a legitimate argument. "If only you were a real man, you'd do this", how many times does this or a variant of this get put on the internet? There is no shortage of internet tough guys out there, that's for sure. I'll be here if you have an argument to make, or you can just keep making assumptions about me and what I need to do. It doesn't really bother me either way. People know when they are ready to have a mature and adult conversation minus the emotional hyperbole they can come to me.
Have a mature and adult conversation minus the emotional hyperbole with your sponsor about you bringing AA into public contraversy on an internet forum and then you can come back to me.
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Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
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Have a mature and adult conversation minus the emotional hyperbole with your sponsor about you bringing AA into public contraversy on an internet forum and then you can come back to me.
Well I just got off the phone with my sponsor. He told me that when he came out of his weekend meeting a couple days ago that he found a flyer on his windshield which told him the truth about AA, and he told me he is no longer going to go to AA and I shouldn't either. He said he is going to back to being an alcoholic and see how that works for him. Guess I'll have to find a new sponsor now.
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Have a mature and adult conversation minus the emotional hyperbole with your sponsor about you bringing AA into public contraversy on an internet forum and then you can come back to me.
Well I just got off the phone with my sponsor. He told me that when he came out of his weekend meeting a couple days ago that he found a flyer on his windshield which told him the truth about AA, and he told me he is no longer going to go to AA and I shouldn't either. He said he is going to back to being an alcoholic and see how that works for him. Guess I'll have to find a new sponsor now.
Grow up !!!!.... Would really love to see your sponsor's reaction if he read your posts...
Peace
:peace:
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At this point I recommend that all the AA threads be sent to the drama box so that will be a good place for AA discussions.
Peace
:peace:
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:poison:
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Just to be clear, I'd like this thread to remain in the open free for all. Thanks.
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Well I can tell you as someone who has dealt with addiction, that it is a disease that lasts forever. There is no cure, and you never get over it. People that say otherwise are usually selling something, or have no experience with addiction themselves or with family members.
Well I can tell you as someone who has dealt with addiction, both personally and with family members, that it is not a disease and it does not have to last forever. That is a myth created to "keep coming back". The cure is to quit. If you can't quit alone, get some professional help not quackery that some Bella Donna and withdrawal induced whacko came up with in one of his "visions". Bill Wilson, Dr. Bob, the big book, 12 & 12 are treated as sacred. When anyone dares question the methods, the Stepcrafters go nuts and start attacking the people who dare to question them! Just like when someone questions the Scientologists. It's very similar and it does kill people.
Anne, ya know what, it does not matter what you believe or know. Why????? Because if you look into it realistically (we) are in the minority. Bill Wilson did not believe in the disease or allergy diagnosis, he spoke about this in 1970 just before he died.
It does not matter, Treatment Centers coined the phrase and the majority of new folks in AA/NA say it.
I've been through many different forms of drug treatment, over the years. So far every single treatment center I've gone to had some form of AA meetings, and recovery ideas adopted within their treatment system.
Yup and they make a ton of money off of it.
Yeah and none of the money goes to the GSO AA in NYC.
The only facility I've been at that did not use AA in any way, is the private program I went to that has its own subforum here, they never mentioned anything related to AA even once. They actually believed in the ideology Psy tells people here, that we are all powerful people in charge of our choices, and being powerless is not an idea to embrace. According to the program we could choose to quit, and choose to be an addict or not. Now I have admitted that this program saved my life, and that's true, but I disagree with their philosophy about life being a series of choices.
Then no wonder you feel you need someone to tell you how to live your life.
Anne, that is not what he is saying. AA does not actually tell you how to live a "LIFE". AA introduces a design for living, suggestive at it's core.
Some things in our lives are and always be out of our control,
Yes, but it is up to us now we deal with those things.
This is true.
like addiction.
You might feel that the addiction itself might not be a choice, but how you deal with it certainly is.
Once you are in the grips of a addiction it is at that time, not a choice, just ask any medical professional. Anne, you are talking afterwards, after medical attention and you have abstained. Yes, I do believe once recovered to your natural state, the choice is yours.
AA/NA and it's various groups are a large population of people, probably in the millions. Many different groups of people with various issues have adopted the AA model to form support groups for their own problems, more proof that many people think the AA model is effective for them.
No, that's not proof that it's effective.....its' proof that it's become popular.
Anne, why is it so necessary for you to get caught up in these condemnations of AA, if people believe it has helped them then this is all the proof you need.
OK, we get it. Anne does not like AA, well thousands upon thousands would disagree with you.
The treatment centers I was in that adopted AA as part of their treatment program, were run by highly educated mental health professionals. Are we to believe that everyone from the treatment center employees, down to the person attending their community AA meeting is brainwashed, and part of a cult that works against their own interests?
Yes.
Anne, you are just being stubborn now.
Common sense suggests that is highly unlikely.
Common sense tells us that humans are looking for "the answer". Just like snakeoil salesmen of the old days, AA swears they have it. Unfortunately Valliant's study proves that to be untrue and shows that AA actually raises the death level among alcoholics.
WoW, you really do not trust others do you. Valliants study does not prove anything near that, all it does is raise an argument/theory.
All folks are doing when they come to AA, is, to stop drinking. That's it, Anne. Your adding in your own interpretation after that.
Perhaps AA/NA do work, and that is why treatment centers have invited them in, and so many different groups have decided to form their own version of anonymous support groups. Everytime a meeting occurs, people vote with their attendance, if AA did not help these people they would not show up, because they have no obligation to. Yet people continue to go. I've met people with 50 year sobriety chips, and I'd ask it's been so long why do you still come? They'd explain to me that they are still an alcoholic, and even 50 years later even one drink could lead them down the dark path that led them to AA in the first place. This supports the idea that addiction is a disease rather than a choice.
No, it doesn't. It supports the idea that humans are seeking "the answer" and will believe what they want or need to in order to get that answer.
Anne, we do not know what treatment centers today, are doing. Why??? Because I don't think they know. My last treatment center was a 30 day center. The clinical director could not stand AA, for the same reasons you don't Anne. One difference he allowed folks to make there own decisions and he did not think, AA was inherently bad/harmful.
The idea that drug or alcohol addiction is a choice, is nothing short of insulting. Addiction is a serious medical issue.
Then it should be dealt with by medical professionals, not the rantings of a certifiable lunatic like Bill Wilson who is so revered in "the rooms".
No Anne, Bill is not revered. You seem to be the only one who puts Bill on a pedestal. Bill was a lunatic, no more then you Anne.
There are experiments using monkeys with drugs like cocaine, and given a choice of cocaine or food they choose to use cocaine and starve to death. Is that their "choice"?
Oh please!!! Their brains do not function cognitively the way ours do. Now you're just being ridiculous.
Anne, you really think so. You said you were a addict, a crack head. If in fact you were, the monkey behavior was in effect.
But what most people see is that the chemical changes the chemistry of the person to a degree, they make unhealthy choices to support their addiction, even if it costs them their own lives.
True, but that has nothing to do with AA.
Why does this have nothing to do with AA, alcohol is a drug (chemical) it changes the chemistry differently in every person.
AA, most definitely deals with this. One of the first medical check ups I was asked to get was to look for possible damage to my mind and body from alcohol. Read the, "Doctors Opinion".
Fornits posters think you should just ignore a person dealing with such serious addiction issues, and tell them "just quit, it's your choice".
No, what we've said is to seek real help, not the sham that is AA.
As most folks know here and other sites, thank god, is AA is very much part of the treatment you will receive.
But other people like AA know it's a lot more complicated than that, and a long, long battle for some people, and choose to offer them a support group made up of people who also went through similar experiences. Only somebody who hasn't dealt with serious addiction could dismiss the life destroying cycle of addiction as a "choice", it simply is not accurate.
You keep saying that but you're completely wrong. There are plenty of us out here who have had damn serious drug problems and have successfully dealt with them without joining a cult-like group.
That is not true at all, most of you started out in AA/NA and moved on. The only statement lacking in your story, Anne. Is your gratitude towards AA/NA helping you to get on your way to a healthy life.
I am talking about AA/NA after you had left, Straight.
All of the people who willingly show up at AA/NA meetings going on across the country today, choose to go because something about AA works for them. Maybe you might not understand why, or how it works for them. But does that make you right, and them wrong? Is such a large group of people who willingly make that choice to attend a meeting, a cult?
There are millions of people attending Scientology. Just because they have large numbers does that mean they're not a cult?
Why are we bringing up Scientology ?????? One has nothing to do with the other.
No, of course not. But it's an easy way to dismiss what they are saying, and the hard reality that addiction is a serious disease.
That's your reality.
It is thousands.
Fornits, on the other hand, is a relatively minuscule population compared to amount of people participating in AA. I think everybody can accept that fact. The few people who make fornits a regular part of their lives, were abused or had negative experiences in programs as underage youths.
Yes, so why do you insist on coming here and trying to cram your version of "help" down our throats? We were already "helped" almost to death and we're a little sick of it.
Because he is allowed.
Some of these programs used a warped version of AA that resembles nothing of the AA in the free world.
Since I've been in both an extremely abusive program and in AA for a number of years, I can say that they are very similar in nature but AA does it in a much more subtle way. If they came at the newcomers like programs do, people would be running out of "the rooms" in droves.
Anne, your nose is growing by the second. Why is it, you find the need to fabricate. You were doing so well, then you veer off into disillusion.
Fornits takes a extreme political position regarding treatment, in that many posters here think treatment in any form is wrong.
I don't think I've ever heard someone say that here. Can you point me to a link showing where someone did?
It is in the very fabric of fornits to a certain degree. I think it would be better said that people here on fornits are leery of forms of treatment.
That is not a mainstream position.
You seem to be under the misguided notion that just because something is considered mainstream that it makes it right.
Well, when most humans say the word, "mainstream" they are referring to what most people think is "right".
Go talk to regular everyday people who don't read fornits about AA, drug treatment centers, or teen programs. Most people actually support these kind of treatment options, and most people know somebody who went to AA, or had serious addiction issues like a friend of family member.
I do, quite frequently. And I get a lot of them saying that they're glad they've got some moral support but that AA gets a little too creepy and controlling for them so they go and find some real help.
Max, Anne will not get honest about this to save her life. You are just banging your head against a wall.
Fornits is a political conversation. Nowhere else could somebody make such a long argument against AA and be considered mainstream other than the internet, I'm sorry but this is true. Most people see it as a legitimate organization.
There you go again with "mainstream = right" idea.
Anne, your world is a very small one and your fears, say so.
On fornits it's a world where all programs are conspiring to hurt as many teens as possible and AA is a cult brainwashing people with dangerous thoughts.
No, that's your view of Fornits. You don't like that people actually challenge the "mainstream" notion that AA is good, so you throw your tantrums. Daily. If it works for you, great.....keep going back but quit trying to shove it down our throats.
Anne, please refrain from attacking him. He is not throwing any tantrums or shoving anything anywhere.
If I never experienced programs, or AA I might be inclined to believe it, people here make some good arguments to suggest so.
Yes, we do. We also cite sources to back up our claims in addition to our own anecdotal experiences, although those are outright dismissed by you guys.
Anne you cite anecdotal sources from the Orange Papers and Valliant's, there opinions. AA has a Book, if you did not know, Bill cites many sources.
But I know that reality is a lot different than fornits reality,
Your reality is different than a lot of people's reality. So what? Why do you still insist on cramming it down our throats? It doesn't work for us and we've found evidence as to why it creeped us out so badly. Why can't you let us have our own views on it?
I did not know by posting different views on this site we were preventing you from having yours. Sounds like Anne, you can not stand it when someone else has a different opinion and tells you about it.
and it's not so black and white as people here like to portray it. Good things happen in "bad" programs, we might not like to admit it, but it's true.
Sure....and I became a much stronger person after I was raped, but I'd rather not have gone thru the torture just to get a little stronger.
Is this a true statement or a metaphor.
AA is good thing, I'm sorry but this is true.
That's your truth.
I have yet to hear a reason why people here are so against AA, other than they think "it doesn't work".
Than, as I suspected, you haven't been paying attention. You don't like what we're saying, so you tune out the evidence we've provided for you.
Anne, evidence can be very speculative as you well know.
So I am here to suggest that AA is not the cult.
Ok...you've suggested it. Can we move on now or are you going to continue to create thread after thread devoted to your beloved Stepcraft?
This is right. You folks post after post about how programs are bad. You don't seem to have a problem with this.
It is fornits, with it's extreme anti treatment opinions and agenda that is truly the cult. Fornits anti treatment ideology is based on a select number of experiences, reinforced with a forum designed to focus solely on these negative experiences.
"Fornits" isn't anything. It's a friggin message board.
Anne, now that is not true, at all. Fornits is a political arm trying to push a agenda. Not that I find any problem with this. I actually encourage it.
When in reality, the people posting on fornits compared to the number who went to programs is relatively insignificant,
Then why do you bother devoting so much time to it?
people here take these limited number of experiences and use them to paint the entire industry with blood.
I know it makes you feel better to believe that our experiences are 'limited'....then you can dismiss them instead of actually trying to learn something.
Who can oppose treatment the most? This is where Aa comes in, it's not related to the troubled teen industry in any way.
Now I know you're delusional. You've said yourself that the wonderful people of AA/NA would devote their precious time to come in and indoctrinate, errr, talk to the kids.
Yet because it represents a form of treatment, something this forum is against, then it too must be condemned and intellectual arguments made to support this must be constructed.
You really don't read much of what we write, do you?
In the end though, it doesn't matter that fornits opposes AA, they will survive and thrive like they always have.
Again, then why do you devote thread after thread to the worship of Bill Wilson and his brand of quackery?
Fornits on the other hand seems to be getting slower over time, and less people are comfortable with the extremist anti treatment ideology here.
It's a friggin message board for people who were abused in programs to talk. That's it. You're trying to make it something it's not and then arguing against your fictional version of it.
AA is based on openness, and helping people. Fornits is now based on censoring and threatening inconvenient opinions, and telling people what to think. You can say whatever you want in an AA meeting and people will listen and not challenge you.
:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:
Unlike fornits is you dare suggest you had a positive experience in a program, you will be trolled with disgusting pictures, called a liar and be presented with countless conspiracy theories about "who you really are".
As Psy has pointed out to you, it happens here all the time. On the one hand y'all say that Fornits is insignificant, but on the other hand you guys go to the extremes of pretending to be program vets to counter what we're saying. If Fornits were so insignificant, you wouldn't bother...but you do, day after day after day in thread after thread after thread.
Fornits is paranoid, close minded and has an ideology built on the faulty foundation of generalizations and self centerednes.
Fornits is a goddamned message board, nothing more.
AA is exactly the opposite, they are open,
::) Sure they are. :lala:
and has an ideology built upon the foundation of the experiences of many alcoholics and addicts that collectively make up the organization.
They have an ideology built upon the rantings of a crazy man using Bella Donna and going thru extreme alcohol withdrawal.
Anne, please grow up. Then we can actually take your ranting somewhat seriously.
Imagine you are an alcoholic/ addict. You might have made choices the first few times you used, but eventually you lost control and you finally had the realization about what people meant when they say addiction is a disease. You lose your job, your family, your house, all because you can't stop using. Then someone comes up and offers you help. Come to our group of people who went through what you did, and we will listen and not judge you. We want to help you recover and regain the life you had once before. They offer you help, a sober living place, and phone number to call when you feel like using, and tell you can call 24/7. These people who didn't know you, help you after your family and everybody else you knew dismissed you as a problematic alcoholic/addict. How would that make you feel?
Wonderful. It does feel great, in the beginning. That's how they start the indoctrination process. Later on, the control over your life starts and AA shows its true self.
Anne, your rambling again.
But now imagine, you come to fornits and ask for advice. You explain that you lost everything because you are an alcoholic/addict and don't know how to help yourself. Then a red titled poster (must be the cult leader) shows up and tells you that everything in your life is a choice. You chose to lose your family, your home, and all your friends because you chose to be a alcoholic and drug addict. You have a bad habit, which you chose, and you can simply choose to stop using alcohol or drugs, if you really wanted to. You are not powerless over your addiction, you are in full control and the solution to all your problems is just to choose not to be an alcoholic or drug addict anymore. How would this make you feel?
Shitty, but sometimes reality sucks. If fact, quite often it sucks but it doesn't make it any less true. AA gives people a reason not to take personal responsibility for their actions.
No AA, gave you a reason to take responsibility for your life. I am sorry you were such a fuck up that you could not even grasp the simple tools AA was trying to give you. I am happy though as you have said before, that you were able to find a counselor that would put up with your crap enough to get through your hard head.
Anne, you have to remember the amount of resentment you had towards AA, from being in Straight. Take this into account.
If you can empathize with someone truly suffering from addiction, what option of help would you choose? Which would be more helpful to you, as a person? The answer is why fornits will remain a small, extremist cult of ideas, and AA will remain a successful, large community supported organization .
So you ask a question, don't wait for an answer and then slam Fornits for what you assume the answer would be. Nice.
Because one is true, and helpful. The other is insulting, and not helpful.
Where did you ever get the idea that Fornits is in the business of addiction therapy?
Where did you get the idea, that Fornits is what "you" think it is or better stated what "you" want it to be. Anne, listen to Ginger, stop talking. Your digging a insurmountable hole, throw the shovel, away.
But lucky for us fornits is just a discussion forum, and the extremist rhetoric posted on this forum has no impact on the real world of AA and the people who choose to attend. There is a small group of people who post here who think that AA is a bad organization and should be avoided. But there are millions who make up meetings across the world every day, and as a silent majority they are not represented in fornits reality. But let's look at the big picture, AA will be around for a long time to come. Fornits? Probably not so much.
You keep saying that....a lot. But, again, you're here starting countless threads devoted to blasting the evil, yet impotent Fornits. You're a strange bird.
Strange bird yes but he is part of your flock. Why don't you try acceptance for a change.
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But what if I did spend my free time passing out AA flyers out at bars on their windshields out in the parking lot? What would people here say about me?
Nothing....it happens all the time.
Anne, only in Florida does this whacked out shit happen. :roflmao: :roflmao:
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The fact is AA is very mainstream and many people voluntarily go to meetings everyday. But admitting this simple fact on fornits, means you are "creating fictitious program vets." How did you figure it out? All this time, I worked so hard at creating a fake "survivor" (is vets what the old-timer survivors call themselves?) just so I could convince people here that AA is great. I hoped nobody would find out but AA is paying me a lot of money to convince the final half dozen hold outs that reside on fornits, to come to meetings, then everybody in the world will love AA and all the critics silenced. What will I do now, that my cover has been blown?
Like I said the fact is AA remains mainstream. Fornits is considered extreme, to everybody associated or having experienced the Troubled Teen Industry. I am just relaying the reality of these two different organizations are perceived by most people. Perhaps you disagree, maybe when somebody needs help from being an addict their first thought is, well better go to fornits and ask for help. It's interesting that people consider a self help organization a cult, because it's views are so mainstream. Yet fornits insists all programs are evil, and should be shut down, based on a limited sample of experiences. Go talk to people in real life that are not fornits posters, and see if they agree with you that all treatment programs are bad, and should be shut down. Then ask if they think somebody who is an alcoholic should go to AA if they need help. Ask 10 people these questions, in real life, and see what they say. Then you will realize that this thread's question is very much accurate, that AA is mainstream and fornits is the cult.
Hey Max... Why does it bother you so bad that the few of us have our own thoughts about AA... Did you not learn the slogan "Live an Let Live" in AA... We were not personally attacking you per say, however each time one of us that have something negative to say, you or one of the others quickly run and start a rebuttal. Surely you could go to AA websites and preach to the choir, but here you come to Fornits which you call a cult and try to change our way of thinking... I am not powerless, I make my own destiny through my own decisions and do not rely on others to validate my existance or whether my thinking process is off.
PS Would you not be happier talking to people that share your thought process and belief system rather than trying to force it on other people who don't ???
BP,
Can you please just stop writing. You give me a damn headache every time I read your hypocritical posts. BP, you really have no idea what you write from post to post, do you. Your explaining to Max that he is attacking you while your busy attacking him on a thread that Max, started. :roflmao: :roflmao:
Keep smoking and drinking, it's working.
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During my many years in the rooms of AA and NA... ( NA Mostly) we were taught to live with the world harmonously, not to be in conflict where ever the AA or NA name was concerned. We were taught that attraction came from us walking the walk not talking the talk. When it came to living harmonously we did not have to argue our point we could agree to disagree and let things die... Remember "Live and let Live" or my version of it was if it don't fit don't force it... I am not trying to persuade you to our way of thinking however you continious post on the matter shows a fact of life that you can not live with, there are people who do not want the life of an AA'er.. If that is the life you choose, more power to you, that is your free will.. You are not powerless you make that choice.
Yeah, you were learning all this while you had a joint in your mouth with a beer coming next. BP, please save it for your bar buddies.
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So it's fine that Psy starts a thread about AA, or Botched starts several. But when I introduce a well thought out argument about why AA is mainstream and fornits is considered extreme end of the treatment political spectrum, suddenly it's spam. When you start condemning people for posting disgusting pictures, or their own AA threads, or all the other bullshit that gets posted here I might just take you a little bit more seriously. But it's obvious that you are the one who is here to start an argument, and unload your AA hatred. If you think I am spamming this forum, the best action for you to take would be to ignore me. Not to spend so much time chopping up my posts and responding one line at a time. That must take some time, right? Surely you have better things to do, maybe like boating, beaches sun and fun or whatever. This is not AA advertising, but I know why you want to claim it is, then you can ban me by saying I'm an paid AA spammer or something. What a weak argument to make, come back when you got something better.
What a troll!
and your not. Were all trolls at some point.
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(1) I take it that you are scared to be honest with your sponsor and the intergroup as you are in fear of what they may say to you.
2) Yes you do need permission if you are in fact a member of said fellowship. Denial of this would lead me to believe you have never studied your fellowships traditions
Whatever you say. You can report me to the AA elders if you wish, hopefully they will not burn me at the stake like the last person who made the mistake of discussing AA without he permission of the elders.
(3) I Have seen AA and NA meeting list on cars at bars before... So don't give me that...
Yet, I'm not the one doing it. If people want to get drunk, I could care less. If people want to go to AA and get sober, great, But I'm not going to spend my money and time trying to convince people with flyers on cars. I live and let live, unlike you.
Sorry Max that you do not respect your fellowship enough to abide by their "Traditions"
Tradition defined
a continuing pattern of culture beliefs or practices.
I unlike you allow people to make their own decision about what they read in my fliers.. I do not stand there and try to push my belifs on them or try to persuade them to my way of thinking.. They have free will... They are not powerless.
BP, you are making a joke of yourself and your explanations of the steps and traditions is nothing more then someone drunk reciting the alphabet backwards. Just try listening for a while.
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Fuck you Danny.... You claim sobriety and probably banging heroine right now... Probably sucked dick for you fix faggot... and to beat it all is I do know a hell of alot more about the traditions than you will in your whole 2 seconds of sobriety, just ask your make believe sponsor.
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At this point you have moved beyond making a logical argument, and into the realm of manipulation and assumptions, so there is nothing left to discuss it seems. I appreciate your pity, I really do. I live with myself quite contently, and have a clear conscience and sleep very well at night. I don't feel like I'm being ridiculous, and your attempt of emasculation with the last sentence is a typical manipulation when someone is lacking a legitimate argument. "If only you were a real man, you'd do this", how many times does this or a variant of this get put on the internet? There is no shortage of internet tough guys out there, that's for sure. I'll be here if you have an argument to make, or you can just keep making assumptions about me and what I need to do. It doesn't really bother me either way. People know when they are ready to have a mature and adult conversation minus the emotional hyperbole they can come to me.
Have a mature and adult conversation minus the emotional hyperbole with your sponsor about you bringing AA into public contraversy on an internet forum and then you can come back to me.
BP, your argument is a ridiculous insofar we are under control from a sponser. No wonder you left AA/NA. The AA/NA you speak of is horrible, I have never witnessed such a concept. "GO talk with your sponser, to get permission to speak freely on a website". What in gods name is wrong with you, BP.
I will make sure I stay out of Ocala, St. Pete-Tampa and other cities in your area.
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Fuck you Danny.... You claim sobriety and probably banging heroine right now... Probably sucked dick for you fix faggot... and to beat it all is I do know a hell of alot more about the traditions than you will in your whole 2 seconds of sobriety, just ask your make believe sponsor.
Well, there is my sober one, attacking as usual. I guess I zeroed in on the truth.
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Fuck you Danny.... You claim sobriety and probably banging heroine right now... Probably sucked dick for you fix faggot... and to beat it all is I do know a hell of alot more about the traditions than you will in your whole 2 seconds of sobriety, just ask your make believe sponsor.
Well, there is my sober one, attacking as usual. I guess I zeroed in on the truth.
Yeah I am sober... better than being like you who is banging dope and is nothing but an internet tough guy who hides behind a keyboard..And the reason you you did not want to talk about being in the rings at Elan is because you got your ass kicked everytimre you were put in the ring.
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Fuck you Danny.... You claim sobriety and probably banging heroine right now... Probably sucked dick for you fix faggot... and to beat it all is I do know a hell of alot more about the traditions than you will in your whole 2 seconds of sobriety, just ask your make believe sponsor.
Well, there is my sober one, attacking as usual. I guess I zeroed in on the truth.
:spam: :spam:
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I will make sure I stay out of Ocala, St. Pete-Tampa and other cities in your area.
Stay out of Florida and the whole state will thank you....Stay off the internet and the world will thank you !!!!
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BP you may not know this but I learned true powerlessness at Elan. It set me free to do anything I wish. YOu see I am powerless over my behavior here just like I was when i dragged that girl behind my car at Elan. Powerless I tell you. BP you need to admit that you are a dope addict and powerless over every substance. Then when you perish, your soul will serve me as a slave in the afterlife. I have recruited many servants at AA meetings and I wont let you mess that up. I demand you cease the leafleting at meetings NOW!!!!
Peace and Powerlessness
Danny
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BP you may not know this but I learned true powerlessness at Elan. It set me free to do anything I wish. YOu see I am powerless over my behavior here just like I was when i dragged that girl behind my car at Elan. Powerless I tell you. BP you need to admit that you are a dope addict and powerless over every substance. Then when you perish, your soul will serve me as a slave in the afterlife. I have recruited many servants at AA meetings and I wont let you mess that up. I demand you cease the leafleting at meetings NOW!!!!
Peace and Powerlessness
Danny
You've recruited the minions from hell in AA meetings... LOL :rocker:
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BP you may not know this but I learned true powerlessness at Elan. It set me free to do anything I wish. YOu see I am powerless over my behavior here just like I was when i dragged that girl behind my car at Elan. Powerless I tell you. BP you need to admit that you are a dope addict and powerless over every substance. Then when you perish, your soul will serve me as a slave in the afterlife. I have recruited many servants at AA meetings and I wont let you mess that up. I demand you cease the leafleting at meetings NOW!!!!
Peace and Powerlessness
Danny
You've recruited the minions from hell in AA meetings... LOL :rocker:
This is not me and you know this. Look at the avatar.
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I was recently on vacation in Florida when I decided to attend an AA meeting, seeking souls to serve me in the afterlife of course. I was drunk and high on various substances when I arrived at the meeting hall. I began to stagger inside when i noticed a leaflet on a car windshield next to me. In the dim light I strained to read the paper. As my eyes began to focus i saw that I was holding a heretical document that burned my fingers just from holding it. It questioned the beautiful dogma of AA. If the drunks inside were to see this it could have ruined my chances of recruiting new dope fiends for my entourage. I grabbed up all the leaflets and took out my crack lighter. Righteous flames engulfed the offending literature as I laughed like a man gone mad... Mmmwwwwhhhaaaaaaa! You shall not steal my minions BP! This means war!
Danny has spoken.
Peace and Powerlessness
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I was recently on vacation in Florida when I decided to attend an AA meeting, seeking souls to serve me in the afterlife of course. I was drunk and high on various substances when I arrived at the meeting hall. I began to stagger inside when i noticed a leaflet on a car windshield next to me. In the dim light I strained to read the paper. As my eyes began to focus i saw that I was holding a heretical document that burned my fingers just from holding it. It questioned the beautiful dogma of AA. If the drunks inside were to see this it could have ruined my chances of recruiting new dope fiends for my entourage. I grabbed up all the leaflets and took out my crack lighter. Righteous flames engulfed the offending literature as I laughed like a man gone mad... Mmmwwwwhhhaaaaaaa! You shall not steal my minions BP! This means war!
Danny has spoken.
Peace and Powerlessness
:seg:
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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Fuck you Danny.... You claim sobriety and probably banging heroine right now... Probably sucked dick for you fix faggot... and to beat it all is I do know a hell of alot more about the traditions than you will in your whole 2 seconds of sobriety, just ask your make believe sponsor.
Well, there is my sober one, attacking as usual. I guess I zeroed in on the truth.
Yeah I am sober... better than being like you who is banging dope and is nothing but an internet tough guy who hides behind a keyboard..And the reason you you did not want to talk about being in the rings at Elan is because you got your ass kicked everytimre you were put in the ring.
BP, your acting like the person who you despise. I just called you on your harassment of others and look at you, you start with the tough guy act.
Last, I never went in the ring, got spanked, sat in the corner, I was shot down once for a week and got a GM for a lie someone told about me, which the very next day he was pulled back into the program to answer for his lies and I was apologized too. I will say this I felt sorry for the guy because he was just twisted from all the shit Elan had put him through and just wanted to get out. The whole situation was just a bunch of bullshit.
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I was recently on vacation in Florida when I decided to attend an AA meeting, seeking souls to serve me in the afterlife of course. I was drunk and high on various substances when I arrived at the meeting hall. I began to stagger inside when i noticed a leaflet on a car windshield next to me. In the dim light I strained to read the paper. As my eyes began to focus i saw that I was holding a heretical document that burned my fingers just from holding it. It questioned the beautiful dogma of AA. If the drunks inside were to see this it could have ruined my chances of recruiting new dope fiends for my entourage. I grabbed up all the leaflets and took out my crack lighter. Righteous flames engulfed the offending literature as I laughed like a man gone mad... Mmmwwwwhhhaaaaaaa! You shall not steal my minions BP! This means war!
Danny has spoken.
Peace and Powerlessness
Well get in all your sock puppetry you can Felice because it will be over soon.
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BP, your acting like the person who you despise. I just called you on your harassment of others and look at you, you start with the tough guy act.
Last, I never went in the ring, got spanked, sat in the corner, I was shot down once for a week and got a GM for a lie someone told about me, which the very next day he was pulled back into the program to answer for his lies and I was apologized too. I will say this I felt sorry for the guy because he was just twisted from all the shit Elan had put him through and just wanted to get out. The whole situation was just a bunch of bullshit.
Think back Danny, You started dogging on me over what I said to Max, for some reason you felt compelled to jump in and ridicule my knowledge of AA's Traditions and suggestions, which you know in your heart everything I said to him to be the way it is... People who step outside of those lines are not practicing what the program teaches.... And I only resorted to firing back on you when you tried to make out like I did not know what the hell I was talking about.. If that is not the way AA teaches it where you are from please entertain me about what the traditions and the suggestions mean where you are from... Seems Arty fro Elan agree's with what I have said on the suggestions as well as the traditions so it is the same in his area as it is in NC, SC, GA, and FL as I have been to all 4 states and even done workshops with my old sponsorship family on steps and traditions, every Wednesday for the last 5 years of my belonging to the fellowship that is what I did as well as take meetings into prisons here.
You just do not like what I say and try to make a mockery out of me because I do not support or live by the fellowships lifestyle. Are you ready to "Live and Let LIve' as the AA slogan says ???
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BP, your acting like the person who you despise. I just called you on your harassment of others and look at you, you start with the tough guy act.
Last, I never went in the ring, got spanked, sat in the corner, I was shot down once for a week and got a GM for a lie someone told about me, which the very next day he was pulled back into the program to answer for his lies and I was apologized too. I will say this I felt sorry for the guy because he was just twisted from all the shit Elan had put him through and just wanted to get out. The whole situation was just a bunch of bullshit.
Think back Danny, You started dogging on me over what I said to Max, for some reason you felt compelled to jump in and ridicule my knowledge of AA's Traditions and suggestions, which you know in your heart everything I said to him to be the way it is... People who step outside of those lines are not practicing what the program teaches.... And I only resorted to firing back on you when you tried to make out like I did not know what the hell I was talking about.. If that is not the way AA teaches it where you are from please entertain me about what the traditions and the suggestions mean where you are from... Seems Arty fro Elan agree's with what I have said on the suggestions as well as the traditions so it is the same in his area as it is in NC, SC, GA, and FL as I have been to all 4 states and even done workshops with my old sponsorship family on steps and traditions, every Wednesday for the last 5 years of my belonging to the fellowship that is what I did as well as take meetings into prisons here.
You just do not like what I say and try to make a mockery out of me because I do not support or live by the fellowships lifestyle. Are you ready to "Live and Let LIve' as the AA slogan says ???
Botch, I think Whooter said it well, here in a few days you will not be able to derail threads and attack posters. So this will take care of most of the problem.
Instead of harassing Max, why don't you get to know him and benefit from his knowledge, he has a different perspective. Botch you can not argue that Max happens to be one of the most polite people here on this site. Outside of the circus that went on a couple of weeks ago, he has not caused or directed any harm at anyone. I am still not sure what that circus was all about anyway.
I do not believe you know what your talking about, no one including myself can speak for all of AA. As I have said multiple times AA "home groups" have autonomy to do as they see fit and they do. "Intergroup", is a office that collectively supports a district within the State their in, usually intergroup is where you buy your literature, books and medallions and co-ordinates State AA functions and assists with the quarterly assemblies.
Botch I have been sober for 22 years, I have been a chairman of a group, GSR of a group and a DCM of a district. The politics of AA, I could not stand. I am not your typical big book stumping member, never have. I have literally sponsored 100's of guys and a few women. I do not have a sponser today, I have friends who know me, I also am not sponsering anyone today and have not for several years.
Do me a favor please, when writing to me leave out all the bullshit AA jargon, OK. I am not impressed by it nor need to hear it. I live my life and I'll be more then happy to tell you about it, just because AA assisted me in growing up, doesn't mean I gave them my first child. I do not understand where you get some of your ideas about AA but hey, that's fine. I do not have to know.
As far as you, Art, Ga, NC, SC, AL, KY and Illinois, everyone and the States they live in and traveled to for AA events are entitled to do whatever they want. Really when I get right down to it, I don't care, I've seen so many different types of meetings and people practicing AA it just confirms to me that everyone has a right to do as they wish.
Botch, just worry about if your ready for the philosophy of, "Live and Let Live", OK.
Last but not least.
I have many responsibilities that I volunteer for, so I actually get to mentor many young guys. I work in the TTI as a volunteer, I work with the homeless, drug addicts and alcoholics.
I am currently working on a idea that has been bugging me for years, what to do with the kids (18 and older) coming out of these programs who really have no where to go, no family and support system in place. We all acknowledge that most of these programs have done nothing to help these kids, well to pour salt on the wound, they then just dump them on the street, with some cash and a few job opportunities. Most of the kids go to a 3/4 house until they can get on their feet. These 3/4 houses can be nothing more then a run down dump with very little supervision and/or supervisors with experience in helping people with this background to better themselves.
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Again... My conversation was with Max... He did not need or ask for your help or input when it came to you juming in the conversation all ballistic quoting Anne, quoting me, and unleasing nothing but hatred and sarcasm... Again I say if that is what you call being sober man I feel for ya... I like being happy and serene with the people I talk with... If you look all the way back through your own personal post look how you belittle people here even the admin, that does not show respect, after 22 years I would expect you to be able to let others have their own opinions about the fellowships. I give you kudos on trying to help them get placement in a home if they are on the street, as that is a positive aspect of what you do... But I don't know many more positive things about what you do, especially causing contraversy... Take a look how many post you have made in the short time you have been here and look at how many I have made in the time I have been here... The quantity of your post way surpasses mine... Almost like you like just looking at your own words. Almost looks as if you feel you are trying to make people believe that we are the fools and you are always right, with the way you feel the need to defend after person who has something negative to say about the program... Sit back see who else come up to bat on the subject. You don't have to be so hasty... I know you have zeal for what you are doing and saying, however apply it a little more moderately... This is part of why our open forum is now becoming moderated because of all the arguing and name calling that has come from both sides of the fence... Probably best thing would be for you to press the ignore button on me, Anne, Frodrick, Che, Psy and who ever else you don't agree with...Would make the board alot more peaceful.
Peace
:peace:
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Again... My conversation was with Max... He did not need or ask for your help or input when it came to you juming in the conversation all ballistic quoting Anne, quoting me, and unleasing nothing but hatred and sarcasm... Again I say if that is what you call being sober man I feel for ya... I like being happy and serene with the people I talk with... If you look all the way back through your own personal post look how you belittle people here even the admin, that does not show respect, after 22 years I would expect you to be able to let others have their own opinions about the fellowships. I give you kudos on trying to help them get placement in a home if they are on the street, as that is a positive aspect of what you do... But I don't know many more positive things about what you do, especially causing contraversy... Take a look how many post you have made in the short time you have been here and look at how many I have made in the time I have been here... The quantity of your post way surpasses mine... Almost like you like just looking at your own words. Almost looks as if you feel you are trying to make people believe that we are the fools and you are always right, with the way you feel the need to defend after person who has something negative to say about the program... Sit back see who else come up to bat on the subject. You don't have to be so hasty... I know you have zeal for what you are doing and saying, however apply it a little more moderately... This is part of why our open forum is now becoming moderated because of all the arguing and name calling that has come from both sides of the fence... Probably best thing would be for you to press the ignore button on me, Anne, Frodrick, Che, Psy and who ever else you don't agree with...Would make the board alot more peaceful.
Peace
:peace:
Botch,
This is coming close to being my last correspondence with you, you refuse to accept responsibility for your own actions nor do you have the ability to retain what you just said a post ago.
BP, if you would just worry about you and what your doing everything would be fine here. Don't worry about anyone else, Frodie, Psy, Anne, Max, Whooter, Che and myself are big boys and girls we can take care of ourselves. We were doing just fine before you came back here and if you were to leave again we would be fine.
My posting numbers are mine they are none of your business unless you want to harass me.
You think what you are doing to various posters is effective and serving a purpose. Problem Botch you look like a fool and you are not that good at it.
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I'm tired of being tormented to hell, that's what I'm tired of.
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Hey now, that's off topic. Moderator!
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Danny bro... This is my last corresponence with you as you are the pot who is calling the kettle black... You could dish it out but not take it and you are the one not willing to take responsibility for your words or actions... Prime example is where you said you would kick Anne's ass then made her quote your post because you were in denial of you saying it... At this point I am putting you on ignore so that I don't have to waste anymore of my time... You just aren't worth it...
Peace
:peace:
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"I'm putting you on ignore!"
"NO way I PUT YOU on IGNORE FIRST!"
"NO I DID!"
"NO WAY!"
We can easily get another 2 pages out of this thread with this sort of thing all on its own.
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"I'm putting you on ignore!"
"NO way I PUT YOU on IGNORE FIRST!"
"NO I DID!"
"NO WAY!"
We can easily get another 2 pages out of this thread with this sort of thing all on its own.
You are hillarious dude... and yes he would have kept going if I had not put him on ignore..... :seg:
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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Anne, that is not what he is saying. AA does not actually tell you how to live a "LIFE". AA introduces a design for living, suggestive at it's core.
Unless each A.A. member follows to the best of his ability our suggested [Bill Wilson's required] Twelve Steps to recovery, he almost certainly signs his own death warrant. ~~ Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, William G. Wilson, page 174.
Anne, why is it so necessary for you to get caught up in these condemnations of AA, if people believe it has helped them then this is all the proof you need.
No, it may be all the proof YOU need, however I require more.
OK, we get it. Anne does not like AA, well thousands upon thousands would disagree with you.
Here we go again equating being popular with being correct.
WoW, you really do not trust others do you.
Until they've earned it, no, I don't.
Valliants study does not prove anything near that, all it does is raise an argument/theory.
No, it proved that the death rates were higher among those who attended AA than those who did nothing.
Anne, you really think so. You said you were a addict, a crack head.
No, I never said I was a crackhead. I've never done crack. I was addicted to opiates.
You keep saying that but you're completely wrong. There are plenty of us out here who have had damn serious drug problems and have successfully dealt with them without joining a cult-like group.
That is not true at all, most of you started out in AA/NA and moved on.
I attended meetings because I was told that was "the only way". I found out very differently. AA did nothing for me other than give me an excuse for my bad behavior and make me feel as though I was powerless. I was told over and over that if I left "the rooms" that I would DIE (duhn duhn DUHHHHHNNN!!!). Once I accepted personal responsibility for my actions and sought medical help, I was relieved of my addiction. AA had NOTHING whatsoever to do with "helping" me at all. Quite the opposite.
The only statement lacking in your story, Anne. Is your gratitude towards AA/NA helping you to get on your way to a healthy life.
Why would I be grateful for something that told me I was powerless? Why would I be grateful for something that told me I didn't need the medications that my doctor prescribed for me? Why would I be grateful for something that told me I'd be "signing my own death warrant" if I left the rooms?
I am talking about AA/NA after you had left, Straight.
Graduated Straight. I wasn't lucky enough to leave before being totally brainwashed.
All of the people who willingly show up at AA/NA meetings going on across the country today, choose to go because something about AA works for them. Maybe you might not understand why, or how it works for them. But does that make you right, and them wrong? Is such a large group of people who willingly make that choice to attend a meeting, a cult?
There are millions of people attending Scientology. Just because they have large numbers does that mean they're not a cult?
Why are we bringing up Scientology ?????? One has nothing to do with the other.
They're extremely similar, especially in this case. You guys keep talking about how popular AA is and how millions of people can't be wrong. Scientologists feel the same way about their cult.
Yes, so why do you insist on coming here and trying to cram your version of "help" down our throats? We were already "helped" almost to death and we're a little sick of it.
Because he is allowed.
Sure he is, but does he really think it's helping his 'cause'? If AA is supposed to be a program of attraction, you guys are doing a damn good job of turning people away from it if you're any indication of the kinds of people that AA churns out.
Since I've been in both an extremely abusive program and in AA for a number of years, I can say that they are very similar in nature but AA does it in a much more subtle way. If they came at the newcomers like programs do, people would be running out of "the rooms" in droves.
Anne, your nose is growing by the second. Why is it, you find the need to fabricate. You were doing so well, then you veer off into disillusion.
Every time I say something that you don't like, or that hits a nerve with you, you accuse me of lying. It makes it easier for you to dismiss reality.
Max, Anne will not get honest about this to save her life. You are just banging your head against a wall.
Every time I say something that you don't like, or that hits a nerve with you, you accuse me of lying. It makes it easier for you to dismiss reality.
No, that's your view of Fornits. You don't like that people actually challenge the "mainstream" notion that AA is good, so you throw your tantrums. Daily. If it works for you, great.....keep going back but quit trying to shove it down our throats.
Anne, please refrain from attacking him. He is not throwing any tantrums or shoving anything anywhere.
Where the hell did I attack him? I said if it works for him, great...but I asked that he please quit trying to shove it down other people's throats....especially people who feel they've been abused by it.
Anne you cite anecdotal sources from the Orange Papers and Valliant's, there opinions. AA has a Book, if you did not know, Bill cites many sources.
Do you realize who Valliant is?? Why don't you go and look him up. I think you'll be surprised. :rofl: And AO cites sources for his opinions. Something you guys either can't or refuse to do.
But I know that reality is a lot different than fornits reality,
Your reality is different than a lot of people's reality. So what? Why do you still insist on cramming it down our throats? It doesn't work for us and we've found evidence as to why it creeped us out so badly. Why can't you let us have our own views on it?
I did not know by posting different views on this site we were preventing you from having yours. Sounds like Anne, you can not stand it when someone else has a different opinion and tells you about it.
No, it's that when I post my experiences with AA, I get called a liar.
Sure....and I became a much stronger person after I was raped, but I'd rather not have gone thru the torture just to get a little stronger.
Is this a true statement or a metaphor.
True statement. Not that you'll believe it, but it's true nonetheless.
It is fornits, with it's extreme anti treatment opinions and agenda that is truly the cult. Fornits anti treatment ideology is based on a select number of experiences, reinforced with a forum designed to focus solely on these negative experiences.
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Fornits is a message board created to be a place where people who were abused in the name of treatment could get together and talk. That's it. You guys keep insisting, at the same time, that it's insignificant, but a cult.
"Fornits" isn't anything. It's a friggin message board.
Anne, now that is not true, at all. Fornits is a political arm trying to push a agenda. Not that I find any problem with this. I actually encourage it.
A political arm??????????? Oh you really are that far gone.
No AA, gave you a reason to take responsibility for your life.
Why are you insisting on giving credit for my actions to a group of people who did nothing to help me? My husband and kids gave me a reason to take responsibility for my life and choices.
I am sorry you were such a fuck up that you could not even grasp the simple tools AA was trying to give you.
Ah, there's more of that AA serenity and happiness. And you wonder why we think you guys are assholes.
I am happy though as you have said before, that you were able to find a counselor that would put up with your crap enough to get through your hard head.
Doctor....I found a doctor who helped me.
Anne, you have to remember the amount of resentment you had towards AA, from being in Straight. Take this into account.
Typical egotistical rantings of a Stepcrafter.
Where did you ever get the idea that Fornits is in the business of addiction therapy?
Where did you get the idea, that Fornits is what "you" think it is or better stated what "you" want it to be.
Well, I was here at the beginning so I think I have a little better idea than you do.
Anne, listen to Ginger, stop talking.
I don't recall Ginger telling me to stop talking. Maybe she said that talking to you was a waste of time, but she's never told me to stop talking. Why don't you ask her why she created this site? It damn sure wasn't to be addiction therapy! Or a "political arm"!!! :rofl: You really are insane, aren't you?
Your digging a insurmountable hole, throw the shovel, away.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: You really are insane, aren't you?
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I am new here but I have two cents to add.
Max, what exactly is your 'experience with addiction'? How old are you? You seem very naive. Anne is exactly right, 'mainstream' does not equal 'right'. I spent many years being forced by the courts to go to AA, it was NOT my choice. Attraction? Hah! Managing your life properly should be your responsibility, not some group project with people you just met. Especially if those people are anything like Danny B, who is apparently exactly the kind of sociopath that the programs we all hate here are so good at creating. I escaped from a straight spinoff in '86 and spent most of the next two decades addicted to heroin and cocaine. All AA or NA ever did for me was give me a kind of "white knuckle sobriety", constantly on guard against the ever present danger of "relapse". And I did relapse, many times. I only got a hold of my life after I distanced myself from AA, NA and all other forms of coercion and started to LIVE MY OWN LIFE. Oh, and Anne, VERY well said, I may be in love with you.
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I am new here but I have two cents to add.
Max, what exactly is your 'experience with addiction'? How old are you? You seem very naive. Anne is exactly right, 'mainstream' does not equal 'right'. I spent many years being forced by the courts to go to AA, it was NOT my choice. Attraction? Hah! Managing your life properly should be your responsibility, not some group project with people you just met. Especially if those people are anything like Danny B, who is apparently exactly the kind of sociopath that the programs we all hate here are so good at creating. I escaped from a straight spinoff in '86 and spent most of the next two decades addicted to heroin and cocaine. All AA or NA ever did for me was give me a kind of "white knuckle sobriety", constantly on guard against the ever present danger of "relapse". And I did relapse, many times.
It's that self fulfilling prophecy crap that AA is so full of. I'm really sorry you got caught up in it.
I only got a hold of my life after I distanced myself from AA, NA and all other forms of coercion and started to LIVE MY OWN LIFE.
Same with me!! Only until I understood how cults and cult-like organizations work (mainly thru research on sites like http://www.ex-cult.org/ (http://www.ex-cult.org/) and http://www.orange-papers.org/ (http://www.orange-papers.org/)) was I able to understand the concept of personal responsibility and gain control over my life. I was "sober" while in AA but always so unhappy. Now that my life is my own, I've finally found the happiness I was looking for from a pill and don't feel the need for them any longer.
Oh, and Anne, VERY well said, I may be in love with you.
Aw, shucks! ;D
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If you don't like AA and think it's all bullshit, then you don't have to go. You can start threads on fornits about why you feel AA is bad, and why it doesn't work for you. Since I had a positive, life-saving experience with AA/NA I choose to argue my position based that. To me AA/NA is the wonderful group of people I meet every time I go, it does not represent negative program related memories. I never experienced AA in a private program like some here have, I have only experienced it in drug rehab and on the outside on my own will. I can understand people have negative experiences with it, I never claimed it's some kind of miracle for everyone in the world. But since I had very positive experience with it, I choose to comment about it and make threads about it.
This thread is questioning how such a small group of anti treatment extremists calling such a gigantic group of individuals that make up AA a cult, is somewhat ironic. I don't see AA as a cult, I think the idea of alcohol and drug addiction are very mainstream, as well as the 12 steps being a solution. The idea of every program being abusive, and AA being a cult, are much more extraordinary ideas, in my opinion. I was not abused in the program, and got helped with AA, so I choose to comment about it that's the extent of my intentions.
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And Max and Danny keep talking about those of us who dare to question AA and its methods as "extremists". Well, it looks like there are a lot more "extremists" coming out of the woodwork....
http://www.moonmac.com/Cult_Called_AA.html (http://www.moonmac.com/Cult_Called_AA.html)
http://www.positiveatheism.org/rw/ofcourse.htm (http://www.positiveatheism.org/rw/ofcourse.htm)
http://www.freedomofmind.com/resourcece ... a_cult.htm (http://www.freedomofmind.com/resourcecenter/groups/a/aa/is_aa_cult.htm)
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style ... 60113.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/cult-or-cure-the-aa-backlash-1160113.html)
http://www.peele.net/lib/bufe.html (http://www.peele.net/lib/bufe.html)
http://www.wheremostneeded.org/2007/05/ ... ccuse.html (http://www.wheremostneeded.org/2007/05/aa_group_accuse.html)
http://www.atheistmissionary.com/2009/0 ... ymous.html (http://www.atheistmissionary.com/2009/04/cult-of-alcoholics-anonymous.html)
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SUCK IT, you don't own "your" threads.
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Can't wait until all of these threads are relegated to their own special forum, that's gonna be SWEET!!! :D
No more AA "debate" threads cluttering up this (once much more lighthearted) forum.. :lala:
The sun will beam down on a brand new day at last... :cheers: :roflmao:
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Can't wait until all of these threads are relegated to their own special forum, that's gonna be SWEET!!! :D
No more AA "debate" threads cluttering up this (once much more lighthearted) forum.. :lala:
The sun will beam down on a brand new day at last... :cheers: :roflmao:
I understand your frustration, I really do but why not just ignore the threads if you don't like them. I enjoy debating AA, so should I not be allowed to because you don't like it?
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It's ok, but soon that debAAting will be done on its own forum! :rofl:
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It's ok, but soon that debAAting will be done on its own forum! :rofl:
Ah...my misunderstanding then. Works for me.
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Well I prefer this thread remains here in the unmoderated Open free for All. This thread's point is not to debate whether AA works or not. It is a fact millions of people attend AA meetings and are what make up the entire AA organization, on the other hand fornits is a handful of people withs similar views. Not a lot of people view all treatment as abusive and AA as a cult, and I think people who believe this are more like a cult than the large organization they are making the same accusation against. I think it's funny people take the time to post in a thread "I'm not interested in this thread" or that it should be censored in some way. The title is clearly accurate in what is being discussed, it's the same people saying the same thing so I know they know what this thread is about. Yet they keep posting in here like they are somehow shocked when clicking on a thread about AA that, gasp, it's AA being discussed. But shutting down discussions seem to be all the rage on fornits right now. Yeah! Censor us! I can't wait until I don't have to read anything on fornits at all! I'm here to discuss with people who want to, if you want to ignore it then don't click on the clearly marked thread titles, it's that easy.
I don't really find all the debates about Muslims and mosques and things like that very interesting. So I don't click on those threads, although I do read them sometimes. But I don't make it a point to seek them out, and tell other people that I'm not interestd, I hope these discussions can be sent to the religion bin forum or whatever. Since the threads are clearly marked I can easily avoid the topics I'm not interested in by not clicking on them, like I said, very easy.
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Well I prefer this thread remains here in the unmoderated Open free for All.
BRRRAAAAAAAPPPPP!!!!
When are you going to get it through your thick (programmed) skull that no one really cares what you want? :beat: :moon: :lala:
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Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
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Well I prefer this thread remains here in the unmoderated Open free for All.
BRRRAAAAAAAPPPPP!!!!
When are you going to get it through your thick (programmed) skull that no one really cares what you want? :beat: :moon: :lala:
You broke rule #2 (don't derail threads) and rule #7 (no attacking other posters with insults). In a few days you will no longer be able to come into my threads and derail, and insult me. So enjoy it will it lasts, moderation, coming soon just like you asked for. It should clean up my threads a lot, I'll admit it, although I'm still against it. If people want to be immature like Forderik here, they should be free to do that without a moderator deleting their posts.