Fornits
General Interest => Open Free for All => Topic started by: Botched Programming on September 02, 2010, 11:27:10 AM
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To all reader on Fornits... I sincerely apologize for opening a topic up where Idiocy even on my own part has overun a fairly peaceful forum.. However I do not take back anything I said about it, that is me and where I stand on the subject. However it did not stay on topic and I apparently took Danny off of his leash, maybe Who has some intrest, if he would have followed my suggestion about doing a little of his own research by reading and going to meetings he would have some accurate info for his self, Max has remained fairly civil through this whole thing and for that I commend him. As for me well the post that Antigen put out, You're special... Well that's me at this point... Still Retarded.
Peace and much healing
:peace:
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Thanks for the summary, Botched. Don’t be too hard on yourself. There have been a lot worse threads on this forum which were reduced to name calling by posters who struggled to articulate their feelings on a particular issue. Personally I think that the reason you have difficulty with AA and struggled with trying to convince everyone it was negative is because you associate it with Straight and your negative experiences there.
I also found it fascinating that you are so threatened by these people to the extent that you spend your time in the dark placing fliers under peoples’ windshield wipers while they are inside talking openly and getting help for themselves. I don’t see why that threatens you so much, even if I viewed them as a cult it wouldn’t bother me if they met at night in my neighborhood as long as they were not bothering anyone or trying to sell me something.
You might want to try to consider figuring out why you spend time doing this and try to re-focus on issues that affect your life directly rather than those events which affect others. I cant see how this could be healthy for you over the long term.
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Thanks for the summary, Botched. Don’t be too hard on yourself. There have been a lot worse threads on this forum which were reduced to name calling by posters who struggled to articulate their feelings on a particular issue. Personally I think that the reason you have difficulty with AA and struggled with trying to convince everyone it was negative is because you associate it with Straight and your negative experiences there.
I also found it fascinating that you are so threatened by these people to the extent that you spend your time in the dark placing fliers under peoples’ windshield wipers while they are inside talking openly and getting help for themselves. I don’t see why that threatens you so much, even if I viewed them as a cult it wouldn’t bother me if they met at night in my neighborhood as long as they were not bothering anyone or trying to sell me something.
You might want to try to consider figuring out why you spend time doing this and try to re-focus on issues that affect your life directly rather than those events which affect others. I cant see how this could be healthy for you over the long term.
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I made my amends to this forum, I care not to be on what you want your topic to be which at this time is me "Botched Programming"... LOL... Getting alot of free rent in your head are'nt I... :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
PS Have you ever stopped to think what my screen name means... Let me tell you it has to do with the oldest form of cpu there is.... The Brain Dude... :rofl: :rofl:
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:jawdrop:
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PS Have you ever stopped to think what my screen name means... Let me tell you it has to do with the oldest form of cpu there is.... The Brain Dude... :rofl: :rofl:
I have, Botched, that is why I commented the way I did. Maybe the mis programming has something to do with your views on AA (as you suggested) and how you expend energy the way you do trying to counter their existence. I would suggest maybe that you look back at your time in Straight for that answer. I am not trying to be critical or redirect the thread but, rather, making a suggestion based on my observation of reading here on the various posts on the subject of AA.
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PS Have you ever stopped to think what my screen name means... Let me tell you it has to do with the oldest form of cpu there is.... The Brain Dude... :rofl: :rofl:
I have, Botched, that is why I commented the way I did. Maybe the mis programming has something to do with your views on AA (as you suggested) and how you expend energy the way you do trying to counter their existence. I would suggest maybe that you look back at your time in Straight for that answer. I am not trying to be critical or redirect the thread but, rather, making a suggestion based on my observation of reading here on the various posts on the subject of AA.
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Still on the subject of me dude.... LOL.... Giving me too much free rent... Didn't think about you until I saw your reply... Funny..By the way you are not my type... :seg: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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Botched is performing a valuable public service by educating his local community to the dangers of AA. Why question his motivations Whooter? I for one, admire those who selflessly campaign on behalf of worthy causes like this. Why cant you just thank him for his efforts and move on? Thanks Botched and keep up the good work.
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PS Have you ever stopped to think what my screen name means... Let me tell you it has to do with the oldest form of cpu there is.... The Brain Dude... :rofl: :rofl:
I have, Botched, that is why I commented the way I did. Maybe the mis programming has something to do with your views on AA (as you suggested) and how you expend energy the way you do trying to counter their existence. I would suggest maybe that you look back at your time in Straight for that answer. I am not trying to be critical or redirect the thread but, rather, making a suggestion based on my observation of reading here on the various posts on the subject of AA.
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Ou Vay Who !!!
Oy Vay Defined
Oy vey (Yiddish: ?? ??), or just oy,[1] is an exclamation of dismay or exasperation
:seg:
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Botched is performing a valuable public service by educating his local community to the dangers of AA. Why question his motivations Whooter? I for one, admire those who selflessly campaign on behalf of worthy causes like this. Why cant you just thank him for his efforts and move on? Thanks Botched and keep up the good work.
I admire people who support a cause also, Shaggys, I use to protest myself and was chased away and arrested in college a few times for civil disobedience. I am very familiar with causes. I have been reading the threads quietly and mostly been staying in the background but I haven’t seen what threat AA is to the community or to individuals. Maybe people feel they bring in undesirables into communities for their meetings, but I have never read where AA meetings result in an increase in property damage or drive up the local crime rate.
I have seen people be concerned with halfway houses being set-up in communities and clinics. I have seen locals become upset because of the placement of mental health facilities in their neighborhood also. But I have never seen people upset like I have here on fornits about AA meetings or the existence of AA.
If I could understand the nature of the threat or harm being done I would be willing to support it.
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Botched is performing a valuable public service by educating his local community to the dangers of AA. Why question his motivations Whooter? I for one, admire those who selflessly campaign on behalf of worthy causes like this. Why cant you just thank him for his efforts and move on? Thanks Botched and keep up the good work.
I admire people who support a cause also, Shaggys, I use to protest myself and was chased away and arrested in college a few times for civil disobedience. I am very familiar with causes. I have been reading the threads quietly and mostly been staying in the background but I haven’t seen what threat AA is to the community or to individuals. Maybe people feel they bring in undesirables into communities for their meetings, but I have never read where AA meetings result in an increase in property damage or drive up the local crime rate.
I have seen people be concerned with halfway houses being set-up in communities and clinics. I have seen locals become upset because of the placement of mental health facilities in their neighborhood also. But I have never seen people upset like I have here on fornits about AA meetings or the existence of AA.
If I could understand the nature of the threat or harm being done I would be willing to support it.
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One word..... Cult !!!!!!!
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One word..... Cult !!!!!!!
Why does that threaten you so much? Every church in America falls under the definition of a Cult. AA has been around for a long time and I havent seen them harm society at all. You could just find out where they are meeting and just stay away from that area during those times. If I were paranoid of cults I would probably focus more on the Latter day Saints (I think thats who they are). These people come drive into neighborhoods and go door to door trying to talk to people and spread their word.
AA is just a group of people who gather to talk about their common struggles. They really dont bother anyone. You should focus on the more aggressive Cults first if this type of behavior bothers you. I believe you chose AA because it is attached to your bad experience at Straight and you have difficulty separating the two. Just my observation.
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Lets say that they were not there discussing ways to stay sober. Lets say that instead they were a group of survivors who shared a common struggle of dealing with their time spent at straight. They chipped in each week for coffee and donuts and support each other with their stories and helping each other get through another few days. Would you still feel a strong sense that these people should not meet? Would you try to disband this group of survivors because they had become a Cult (by your definition) or would their cause allow you to turn a blind eye to them and allow them to meet because you understood their need to meet.
I think if you took the time to understand their need to meet and the comfort it is to them to know there was a support group out there for them you would not feel so threatened by them.
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:karma:
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:soapbox:
WHOTIUS MAXIMUS....WHO IS THE ARTIST WHO DOES THE AVATARS FOR YOU?
I LOVE IT!
BOTCHED,
I AM SO TEMPTED TO STEAL ANOTHER ONE OF YOUR GREAT AVATARS!
I LIKE THAT FLASH ANIMATION.
TIME TO EAT MORE XANAX STILL IN HELLSCONSIN.
LOOK AT THIS SICK SHIT OUTTA EUROPE: http://http://entertainment.za.msn.com/gallery.aspx?cp-documentid=153552978
IT REMINDS ME OF KING DIAMOND ON ACID :roflmao:
(http://http://www.absolutearts.com/portfolio3/s/sierra/ISABELA-1012008767l.jpg)
Felice, her name is Dania Sierra and I have admired her work for years and have purchased a few originals from her. I am not sure where you live but she is going to be showing next in Miami in November (2010). I will probably be there because she is holding a gala on opening night at the airport convention center. I believe it is the 19th.
Her bio is on this page:
Dania (http://http://www.sierrafineart.com/)
You are talented yourself, Felice, and you should keep working.
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Whooter does have a cool avatar but uncool ideas about AA. I really loathe those 12 steps. Yes the 7 steps of Straight were taken directly from the 12 but thats not why I hate them. My hatred of the 12 steps revolves primarily around the fact that the steps teach people that they are powerless over drugs and alcohol so consequently they will need AA for the rest of their lives to stay off the dope. Its like if i could convice people that the only way to breathe was with the air that I alone can provide them. To me that whole underlying principle behind the powerless/its a disease theory is just plain fucked up.
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Lets say that they were not there discussing ways to stay sober. Lets say that instead they were a group of survivors who shared a common struggle of dealing with their time spent at straight. They chipped in each week for coffee and donuts and support each other with their stories and helping each other get through another few days. Would you still feel a strong sense that these people should not meet? Would you try to disband this group of survivors because they had become a Cult (by your definition) or would their cause allow you to turn a blind eye to them and allow them to meet because you understood their need to meet.
I think if you took the time to understand their need to meet and the comfort it is to them to know there was a support group out there for them you would not feel so threatened by them.
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Who... I do not feel threatened in any way by AA, however my opinion of them remains to be a step cult... I really think we have spent more than enough time discussing it, at this point it is clear to see we are both closed minded to the others opinion. Why don't we just allow the AA threads die a natural death and let the readers move on to something else... If you look at Antigen's post "You're Special" You might see it applies not only to me, but you as well.
Peace
:peace:
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Whooter does have a cool avatar but uncool ideas about AA. I really loathe those 12 steps. Yes the 7 steps of Straight were taken directly from the 12 but thats not why I hate them. My hatred of the 12 steps revolves primarily around the fact that the steps teach people that they are powerless over drugs and alcohol so consequently they will need AA for the rest of their lives to stay off the dope. Its like if i could convice people that the only way to breathe was with the air that I alone can provide them. To me that whole underlying principle behind the powerless/its a disease theory is just plain fucked up.
Its a life long commitment. In the beginning there are many people who look for meetings all over the place to find one that fits them and they attend a few times a week and call their sponsor every day. But after a few years or ten years then maybe you dont need it as much or you start to help others who are new. Learning is a lifetime commitment and we need to continue to learn in order to survive, but it doesnt mean we need to attend school 8 hours a day our whole lives.
As far as the disease classification I am sure you could still get a lot out of AA even if you felt it wasnt a disease. People can take away from the experience anything they like you dont need to buy into every aspect of it.
If there was evidence that AA lowered a persons quality of life or caused them harm then I could see trying to step in. But I havent seen any evidence of that here in these threads at all.
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Whooter does have a cool avatar but uncool ideas about AA. I really loathe those 12 steps. Yes the 7 steps of Straight were taken directly from the 12 but thats not why I hate them. My hatred of the 12 steps revolves primarily around the fact that the steps teach people that they are powerless over drugs and alcohol so consequently they will need AA for the rest of their lives to stay off the dope. Its like if i could convice people that the only way to breathe was with the air that I alone can provide them. To me that whole underlying principle behind the powerless/its a disease theory is just plain fucked up.
Its a life long commitment. In the beginning there are many people who look for meetings all over the place to find one that fits them and they attend a few times a week and call their sponsor every day. But after a few years or ten years then maybe you dont need it as much or you start to help others who are new. Learning is a lifetime commitment and we need to continue to learn in order to survive, but it doesnt mean we need to attend school 8 hours a day our whole lives.
As far as the disease classification I am sure you could still get a lot out of AA even if you felt it wasnt a disease. People can take away from the experience anything they like you dont need to buy into every aspect of it.
If there was evidence that AA lowered a persons quality of life or caused them harm then I could see trying to step in. But I havent seen any evidence of that here in these threads at all.
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(1) In the beginning is where people are the most vulnerable and listen to the dogmatic suggestions, 90 meetings in 90 days, get a sponsor, and start working on steps.... The Propaganda is at this point like mind control, if you don't do these things guilt sets in lowering self esteem and rational independent thought. And yes it can become a life long process of being dependent on the cults group think mentality...
(2)The lucky ones after years open their freaking eyes and realize what a crock this stuff is... Hell I like drinking guilt free beers and dabbling in TBPITW..
Peace
:peace:
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Whooter does have a cool avatar but uncool ideas about AA. I really loathe those 12 steps. Yes the 7 steps of Straight were taken directly from the 12 but thats not why I hate them. My hatred of the 12 steps revolves primarily around the fact that the steps teach people that they are powerless over drugs and alcohol so consequently they will need AA for the rest of their lives to stay off the dope. Its like if i could convice people that the only way to breathe was with the air that I alone can provide them. To me that whole underlying principle behind the powerless/its a disease theory is just plain fucked up.
Its a life long commitment. In the beginning there are many people who look for meetings all over the place to find one that fits them and they attend a few times a week and call their sponsor every day. But after a few years or ten years then maybe you dont need it as much or you start to help others who are new. Learning is a lifetime commitment and we need to continue to learn in order to survive, but it doesnt mean we need to attend school 8 hours a day our whole lives.
As far as the disease classification I am sure you could still get a lot out of AA even if you felt it wasnt a disease. People can take away from the experience anything they like you dont need to buy into every aspect of it.
If there was evidence that AA lowered a persons quality of life or caused them harm then I could see trying to step in. But I havent seen any evidence of that here in these threads at all.
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(1) In the beginning is where people are the most vulnerable and listen to the dogmatic suggestions, 90 meetings in 90 days, get a sponsor, and start working on steps.... The Propaganda is at this point like mind control, if you don't do these things quilt sets in lowering self esteem and rational independent thought. And yes it can become a life long process of being dependent on the cluts group think mentality...
(2)The lucky ones after years open their freaking eyes and realize what a crock this stuff is... Hell I like drinking guilt free beers and dabbling in TBPITW..
Peace
:peace:
In the beginning is when they need the most help. After a few years they manage their lives much better and can begin to step away from being attached to everyone else and attending so many meetings. They learn a new routine, a new way to approach life and deal with the stresses in it. After awhile it becomes common place and a part of them. Pretty soon they become more independent from AA.
I still don't think this is anything evil or where it hurts anyone.
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I still don't think this is anything evil or where it hurts anyone.
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And you never will with a closed mind !!!
Peace
:peace:
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I still don't think this is anything evil or where it hurts anyone.
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And you never will with a closed mind !!!
Peace
:peace:
If you have evidence that AA is hurting people I am open to reading it, Botched. You are the one stepping in and putting fliers on the windshields. I am open minded and accept people who embrace AA and also those who feel it doesnt work. I just dont think it is healthy to spend so much time attacking one side or the other. It is just opinions and if they work for a portion of the population then its okay. I am open minded to consider both sides of the argument. Once you alienate one side, though and label them and cant see their point of view then you begin to close down your mind, which you have done.
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I still don't think this is anything evil or where it hurts anyone.
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And you never will with a closed mind !!!
Peace
:peace:
If you have evidence that AA is hurting people I am open to reading it, Botched. You are the one stepping in and putting fliers on the windshields. I am open minded and accept people who embrace AA and also those who feel it doesnt work. I just dont think it is healthy to spend so much time attacking one side or the other. It is just opinions and if they work for a portion of the population then its okay. I am open minded to consider both sides of the argument. Once you alienate one side, though and label them and cant see their point of view then you begin to close down your mind, which you have done.
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As far as me putting my fliers on windshields it is no worse than the propaganda that they hand out in treatment centers and jails. My flier only affects the ones with the open mind to what they say.. No more harmful than the ones they distribute. They have a Public Relations sub-committee and I am just one person in one area.. You seem to be threatened by my actions of putting out information and letting people decide for themselves... Strange indeed... :seg:
Peace
:peace:
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Whooter does have a cool avatar but uncool ideas about AA. I really loathe those 12 steps. Yes the 7 steps of Straight were taken directly from the 12 but thats not why I hate them. My hatred of the 12 steps revolves primarily around the fact that the steps teach people that they are powerless over drugs and alcohol so consequently they will need AA for the rest of their lives to stay off the dope. Its like if i could convice people that the only way to breathe was with the air that I alone can provide them. To me that whole underlying principle behind the powerless/its a disease theory is just plain fucked up.
Dude your ego is so busy denying the inevitable, you hate AA because it was shoved down your throat while you attended Straight. Guys it is OK, to say this. Everyone but you, already knows this.
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BP, you made amends, stop making excuses for your amends.
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BP, you made amends, stop making excuses for your amends.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: You are a hoot Danny-Boi !!!!! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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My suggestion is to hold Danny accountable for his threats with a consequence. Each and every time he threatens a member of fornits, we consequence him by delivering fliers to the poor dimwitted drunks that need them the most.
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Lets say that they were not there discussing ways to stay sober. Lets say that instead they were a group of survivors who shared a common struggle of dealing with their time spent at straight. They chipped in each week for coffee and donuts and support each other with their stories and helping each other get through another few days. Would you still feel a strong sense that these people should not meet? Would you try to disband this group of survivors because they had become a Cult (by your definition) or would their cause allow you to turn a blind eye to them and allow them to meet because you understood their need to meet.
I think if you took the time to understand their need to meet and the comfort it is to them to know there was a support group out there for them you would not feel so threatened by them.
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Yeah but our cult would be way cooler than yours 'cause we would be drinking, taking drugs, and fornicating our way through the next few days with or without the help of some theoretical "higher power". If we did form a cult such as the one of which you speak, it would be so much cooler and exclusive than AA that assholes like yourself would not even be aware of it's existence until we started a jihad and eliminated you and your sorry ilk from the face of the Earth.
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Lets say that they were not there discussing ways to stay sober. Lets say that instead they were a group of survivors who shared a common struggle of dealing with their time spent at straight. They chipped in each week for coffee and donuts and support each other with their stories and helping each other get through another few days. Would you still feel a strong sense that these people should not meet? Would you try to disband this group of survivors because they had become a Cult (by your definition) or would their cause allow you to turn a blind eye to them and allow them to meet because you understood their need to meet.
I think if you took the time to understand their need to meet and the comfort it is to them to know there was a support group out there for them you would not feel so threatened by them.
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Yeah but our cult would be way cooler than yours 'cause we would be drinking, taking drugs, and fornicating our way through the next few days with or without the help of some theoretical "higher power". If we did form a cult such as the one of which you speak, it would be so much cooler and exclusive than AA that assholes like yourself would not even be aware of it's existence until we started a jihad and eliminated you and your sorry ilk from the face of the Earth.
lol
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Ganja Ackbar!
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Lets say that they were not there discussing ways to stay sober. Lets say that instead they were a group of survivors who shared a common struggle of dealing with their time spent at straight. They chipped in each week for coffee and donuts and support each other with their stories and helping each other get through another few days. Would you still feel a strong sense that these people should not meet? Would you try to disband this group of survivors because they had become a Cult (by your definition) or would their cause allow you to turn a blind eye to them and allow them to meet because you understood their need to meet.
I think if you took the time to understand their need to meet and the comfort it is to them to know there was a support group out there for them you would not feel so threatened by them.
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Yeah but our cult would be way cooler than yours 'cause we would be drinking, taking drugs, and fornicating our way through the next few days with or without the help of some theoretical "higher power". If we did form a cult such as the one of which you speak, it would be so much cooler and exclusive than AA that assholes like yourself would not even be aware of it's existence until we started a jihad and eliminated you and your sorry ilk from the face of the Earth.
:rocker:
(http://http://well-regulatedmilitia.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/M107_1.jpg)
I'm in...
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Lets say that they were not there discussing ways to stay sober. Lets say that instead they were a group of survivors who shared a common struggle of dealing with their time spent at straight. They chipped in each week for coffee and donuts and support each other with their stories and helping each other get through another few days. Would you still feel a strong sense that these people should not meet? Would you try to disband this group of survivors because they had become a Cult (by your definition) or would their cause allow you to turn a blind eye to them and allow them to meet because you understood their need to meet.
I think if you took the time to understand their need to meet and the comfort it is to them to know there was a support group out there for them you would not feel so threatened by them.
...
Yeah but our cult would be way cooler than yours 'cause we would be drinking, taking drugs, and fornicating our way through the next few days with or without the help of some theoretical "higher power". If we did form a cult such as the one of which you speak, it would be so much cooler and exclusive than AA that assholes like yourself would not even be aware of it's existence until we started a jihad and eliminated you and your sorry ilk from the face of the Earth.
:rocker:
(http://http://well-regulatedmilitia.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/M107_1.jpg)
I'm in...
Me too... RTP are you going to be our leader !!!! :seg:
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I'm in.
Me too... RTP are you going to be our leader !!!! :seg:
Shhhhhhhhh..........don't tell anyone........but the answer is a definitive "HELL YEAH!!!!!!!"
http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.ph ... via#p96090 (http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=9182&p=96090&hilit=salvia#p96090)
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You need to say something at the beginning of each of your meetings to humble yourselves.
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You need to say something at the beginning of each of your meetings to humble yourselves.
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You need to go eat another bag of dicks.
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Here you go, try this:
Fornits, grant me the serenity
To accept the quality level of the drugs I buy with spare change;
Courage to blindly self medicate with them;
And wisdom to know my posts here make a difference.
[/size]
...
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Here you go, try this:
Fornits, grant me the serenity
To accept the quality level of the drugs I buy with spare change;
Courage to blindly self medicate with them;
And wisdom to know my posts here make a difference.
[/size]
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Whootie, blowing away the competition into shreds. Hey, RTP2003, you still have your ass, son. Hows it feel to have Whooties, shrapnel up your ass...... :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: ::unhappy:: ::unhappy:: ::unhappy::
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My suggestion is to hold Danny accountable for his threats with a consequence. Each and every time he threatens a member of fornits, we consequence him by delivering fliers to the poor dimwitted drunks that need them the most.
:roflmao: :roflmao: You folks are hillarious, tonight.
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Here you go, try this:
Fornits, grant me the serenity
To accept the quality level of the drugs I buy with spare change;
Courage to blindly self medicate with them;
And wisdom to know my posts here make a difference.
[/size]
...
Whootie, blowing away the competition into shreds. Hey, RTP2003, you still have your ass, son. Hows it feel to have Whootie, shrapnel up your ass...... :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: ::unhappy:: ::unhappy:: ::unhappy::
Number one we would not as Fornits... Would be more like Jah and ask for the serenity and patience to wait on some good hydroponic shit finish growing.. and the courage to ignore bafoon posting such as yours and the wisdom to realize you are dumb asses..
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For information on the creation and use of psychic weapons, PM me and we'll talk....
"The Power of language is so great that it can call things into existence simply through naming them."---Richard Mitchell, Less Than Words Can Say
The Red Temple Cult is NOT some 'cult-of-personality' based on the skin encapsulated self of the primary spokesbeing for the Cult, NO WAY, UH-UH, NYET, NEIN, NON. Far from it. Unlike the religions of the Slave Gods, such as Xtianity, Islam, etc., the Cult is not seeking groveling worshippers, but freethinking, independent-minded allies, who can make welcome contributions toward fulfilling the Misssion of the Cult. Hell, the Cult isn't even a 'religion' in the traditional sense......
ON THE MANIFESTATION OF ALIEN ENTITIES
(RTP) was dreaming. He was in England, and everything was closed because it was a Monday. After conferring with a business associate, he went into a hotel, which turned out to be empty room after empty room, floor after floor (there weren't any elevators so he had to take the stairs--that got to be a real bitch after a while). (RTP) discovered evidence of human habitation on one of the higher floors: A piano, on which was folded a newspaper, and on which sat an ashtray and a pack of cigarettes. (RTP) took one of the cigarettes out of the pack, which was a brand he was unfamiliar with, and lit it. After taking a couple of drags, a woman's voice was calling to him, so he turned around. A rather short, dark-haired woman was speaking to him in a very thick, nearly unintelligable Welsh(?) accent. (RTP) told her he could not understand her, and she morphed into a black man who spoke with a Jamaican accent. This revealed to (RTP) that the entire hotel was an alien labratory, where he was being observed, and his behavior in various situations was being catalogued and analyzed. (RTP) finished his cigarette and walked downstairs, leaving the "hotel" and going to a restaurant where he ate dinner with some Turks who offered him whiskey and cannabis. He declined a drink, but accepted a joint. He spent the rest of the evening cursing the hubris of the extraterrestrials for using him as a lab rat in their expiraments, harmless though they were.
Goddamn aliens......
[ This Message was edited by: RTP2003 on 2005-04-18 14:21 ]
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:nods:
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Has anybody else here actually said the serenity prayer, and really meant it? I was in a place a while ago and desperate and some really nice people at AA and treatment centers helped me, and taught me the serenity prayer. I said it and really meant it,it wasn't just a phrase or a joke or something. I meant it like you really mean a prayer, when you have run out of options and have only God left to ask for help. I guess when you are in that place, it's more than just a saying , it is more like a lifeline to desperately needed hope and something to strive for.
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Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I cannot accept,
And the wisdom to hide the bodies of those people
I had to kill today because they pissed me off.
Also, help me to be careful of the toes I step on today,
as they may be connected to the ass that I may have to kiss tomorrow.
-
Has anybody else here actually said the serenity prayer, and really meant it? I was in a place a while ago and desperate and some really nice people at AA and treatment centers helped me, and taught me the serenity prayer. I said it and really meant it,it wasn't just a phrase or a joke or something. I meant it like you really mean a prayer, when you have run out of options and have only God left to ask for help. I guess when you are in that place, it's more than just a saying , it is more like a lifeline to desperately needed hope and something to strive for.
Yeah. I said it. I meant it. I truly believed it to my core. I believed if I left the program that I would die. Why? Because they told my I had a disease until I believed it. I had only gotten drunk once but that was enough. They told me they could tell. They told me we caught it young and I had a chance.
It felt good. It felt like I belonged to something. It felt like I was in some exclusive club. It felt like this disease gave me a new identity I could be proud of. I was in recovery. I took chips. I cherished them. I kept them in a safe place. I loved the program and the AA meetings they took us to.
It's really too painful to talk about. You put so much faith in something. You give yourself to people. You trust them. You love them... And you learn they're only doing it so they can make money off your stay. You learn they've raped your mind and those problems you thought you had were entirely fictional. it's not right to do that to people. I don't really care whether it's a cult or not. AA may help some people but when you're coerced into it, or you're lied to and told it's the only way, it can kill.
I will never say that "prayer" again.
Maybe you had a problem, Nax, but that was of your own doing, not some disease. If you chose to quit you did that with your own free will. Stop giving others undue credit.
-
If you have evidence that AA is hurting people I am open to reading it,
Yes, it's from the Orange Papers so no doubt you'll dismiss it but notice the sources he cites. And why you're even in this discussion when you've admitted that you have no knowledge of and haven't read the BB, I don't know why you feel compelled to argue the point. As I said before, maybe you should refrain from commenting until you know what you're talking about.
Just a few.....
The Harvard Mental Health Letter, Volume 12, Number 4, October 1995,
American Health Magazine
Dr. Sheldon Zimberg
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-eff ... ard_Mental (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-effectiveness.html#Harvard_Mental)
The Harvard Mental Health Letter, from The Harvard Medical School, stated quite plainly:
On their own
There is a high rate of recovery among alcoholics and addicts, treated and untreated. According to one estimate, heroin addicts break the habit in an average of 11 years. Another estimate is that at least 50% of alcoholics eventually free themselves although only 10% are ever treated. One recent study found that 80% of all alcoholics who recover for a year or more do so on their own, some after being unsuccessfully treated. When a group of these self-treated alcoholics was interviewed, 57% said they simply decided that alcohol was bad for them. Twenty-nine percent said health problems, frightening experiences, accidents, or blackouts persuaded them to quit. Others used such phrases as "Things were building up" or "I was sick and tired of it." Support from a husband or wife was important in sustaining the resolution.
Treatment of Drug Abuse and Addiction — Part III, The Harvard Mental Health Letter, Volume 12, Number 4, October 1995, page 3.
(See Aug. (Part I), Sept. (Part II), Oct. 1995 (Part III).)
So much for the sayings that "Everybody needs a support group" and "Nobody can do it alone". Most successful people do.
Likewise, American Health Magazine reported:
...people are about ten times as likely to change on their own as with the help of doctors, therapists, or self-help groups.
J. Gurion, American Health Magazine, March 1990.
And note that the Harvard Medical School says that the support of a good spouse is more important than that of a 12-Step group. But A.A. says just the opposite: "Dump your spouse and marry the A.A. group, because A.A. is The Only Way."
"I decided I must place this program above everything else, even my family, because if I did not maintain my sobriety I would lose my family anyway."
The Big Book, 3rd Edition — Chapter B10, He Sold Himself Short, page 293.
And a rehash of the Big Book that is targeted at youths tells this story of an allegedly-successful recovery:
Even after she remarries, she doesn't lose sight of her priorities. She places God first (Me: but it's not religious, really) and A.A. second. Her husband is never more than the third most important aspect of her life.
Big Book Unplugged; A Young Person's Guide to Alcoholics Anonymous, John R., page 107.
In his book on the treatment of alcoholism, Dr. Sheldon Zimberg surveyed the literature for reports of spontaneous remission of alcoholism:
Spontaneous Remission in Alcoholism
A number of studies have found that a small percentage of alcoholics improve to the point of remission of problems associated with alcohol consumption. Bailey and Stewart (235) interviewed alcoholics after three years without treatment and found that about 27 percent of the former patients denied alcoholism. Cahalan (268) in a national drinking practices study noted that drinking problems decrease in men after age 50 and the amount of alcohol consumed also decreases. Cahalan, Cisin, and Crossley (11) in another national survey of drinking practices found that about one-third more individuals had problem drinking in a period before their three-year study period than during the study period itself, suggesting a tendency toward spontaneous remission of drinking problems. Goodwin, Crane, and Guze (269) found that on an eight-year follow-up with no treatment about 18 percent of the alcoholic felons had been abstinent for at least two years. Lemere (238) reported long-term abstinence in 11 percent of untreated alcoholics over an unspecified interval. Kendall and Staton (236) reported 15 percent abstinence in untreated alcoholics after a seven-year follow-up. Kissin, Platz, and Su (203) reported a 4 percent one-year improvement rate in untreated lower class alcoholics. Imber et al. (10) described a follow-up of 58 alcoholics who received no treatment for their alcoholism. It was noted that the rate of abstinence was 15 percent at one year and 11 percent after three years.
In sum, the preponderance of these studies suggests that a spontaneous remission rate for alcoholism of at least one-year duration is about 4-18 percent. Successful treatment would, therefore, have to produce rates of improvement significantly above this probable range of spontaneous remission.
10. Imber, S., Schultz, E., Funderburk, F., Allen, R. and Flamer, R. The Fate of the Untreated Alcoholic. J. Nerv and Ment. Dis., 1976, 162:238-247.
11. Cahalan, D., Cisin, I. H. and Crossley, H. M. American Drinking Practices: A National Survey of Drinking Behavior and Attitudes. New Brunswick, Rutgers Center for Alcohol Studies, 1974.
203. Kissin, B., Platz, A. and Su, W. H. Social and Psychological Factors in the Treatment of Chronic Alcoholics. J. Psychiat. Res., 1970, 8:13-27.
235. Bailey, M. B. and Stewart, S. Normal Drinking by Persons Reporting Previous Problem Drinking. Quart. J. Stud. Alc., 1967, 28:305-315.
236. Kendall, R. E. and Staton, M. C. The Fate of Untreated Alcoholics. Quart. J. Stud. Alc., 1966, 27:30-41.
238. Lemere, F. What Happens to Alcoholics. Amer. J. Psychiat., 1953, 109:674-675.
268. Cahalan, D. Problem Drinkers: A National Survey, San Francisco, Jossey-Bass, 1970.
269. Goodwin, W. W., Crane, J. B., and Guze, S. B. Felons Who Drink: An Eight-Year Follow-up. Quart. J. Stud. Alc., 1971, 32:136-147.
The Clinical Management of Alcoholism, Sheldon Zimberg, M.D., page 179, footnotes on pages 223 to 234.
The key sentence is the last one — for a treatment program to claim success, it would have to produce recovery rates greater than the usual rate of spontaneous remission. Alcoholics Anonymous comes nowhere near exceeding a 4 to 18 percent per year recovery rate.
Personally, I find the 18 percent number to be far too high to believe. (At that rate, 85% of all of the alcoholics in the country should have recovered in just the last 10 years. Obviously, that has not happened.) I agree with R. G. Smart, who calculated a spontaneous remission rate for alcoholism of between 3.7 and 7.4 percent per year. As a simple rule of thumb, the middle value of 5 or 5.5 percent per year is quite believable. Still, the claimed success rate of Alcoholics Anonymous does not even exceed that much lower rate of spontaneous remission.
-
Has anybody else here actually said the serenity prayer, and really meant it? I was in a place a while ago and desperate and some really nice people at AA and treatment centers helped me, and taught me the serenity prayer. I said it and really meant it,it wasn't just a phrase or a joke or something. I meant it like you really mean a prayer, when you have run out of options and have only God left to ask for help. I guess when you are in that place, it's more than just a saying , it is more like a lifeline to desperately needed hope and something to strive for.
Yeah. I said it. I meant it. I truly believed it to my core. I believed if I left the program that I would die. Why? Because they told my I had a disease until I believed it. I had only gotten drunk once but that was enough. They told me they could tell. They told me we caught it young and I had a chance.
It felt good. It felt like I belonged to something. It felt like I was in some exclusive club. It felt like this disease gave me a new identity I could be proud of. I was in recovery. I took chips. I cherished them. I kept them in a safe place. I loved the program and the AA meetings they took us to.
It's really too painful to talk about. You put so much faith in something. You give yourself to people. You trust them. You love them... And you learn they're only doing it so they can make money off your stay. You learn they've raped your mind and those problems you thought you had were entirely fictional. it's not right to do that to people. I don't really care whether it's a cult or not. AA may help some people but when you're coerced into it, or you're lied to and told it's the only way, it can kill.
I will never say that "prayer" again.
Maybe you had a problem, Nax, but that was of your own doing, not some disease. If you chose to quit you did that with your own free will. Stop giving others undue credit.
Stop,blaming AA, your TC and every other thing under the sun. My god, what is with some of you folks, today.
-
If you have evidence that AA is hurting people I am open to reading it,
Yes, it's from the Orange Papers so no doubt you'll dismiss it but notice the sources he cites. And why you're even in this discussion when you've admitted that you have no knowledge of and haven't read the BB, I don't know why you feel compelled to argue the point. As I said before, maybe you should refrain from commenting until you know what you're talking about.
Well it is his opinions and I could find letters and articles to supports all of my opinions about everything I think of, if that is what I want to do. My problem is none of these articles you posted here have really anything to do with AA, directly.
Just a few.....
The Harvard Mental Health Letter, Volume 12, Number 4, October 1995,
American Health Magazine
Dr. Sheldon Zimberg
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-eff ... ard_Mental (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-effectiveness.html#Harvard_Mental)
The Harvard Mental Health Letter, from The Harvard Medical School, stated quite plainly:
On their own
There is a high rate of recovery among alcoholics and addicts, treated and untreated. According to one estimate, heroin addicts break the habit in an average of 11 years. Another estimate is that at least 50% of alcoholics eventually free themselves although only 10% are ever treated. One recent study found that 80% of all alcoholics who recover for a year or more do so on their own, some after being unsuccessfully treated. When a group of these self-treated alcoholics was interviewed, 57% said they simply decided that alcohol was bad for them. Twenty-nine percent said health problems, frightening experiences, accidents, or blackouts persuaded them to quit. Others used such phrases as "Things were building up" or "I was sick and tired of it." Support from a husband or wife was important in sustaining the resolution.
Treatment of Drug Abuse and Addiction — Part III, The Harvard Mental Health Letter, Volume 12, Number 4, October 1995, page 3.
(See Aug. (Part I), Sept. (Part II), Oct. 1995 (Part III).)
So much for the sayings that "Everybody needs a support group" and "Nobody can do it alone". Most successful people do.
OK, Harvard Medical wrote a letter, did they write it to AA, was it a rebuttal for a opinion concerning the viability of AA, was it in response to a letter AA wrote about itself or wrote to Harvard Medical. Maybe it was just a letter Harvard wrote concerning Alcoholism. Great we need this information out there, no one will argue this Anne.
I can not even understand why your arguing about a organization that you really know nothing about or what it is trying to accomplish.
Likewise, American Health Magazine reported:
...people are about ten times as likely to change on their own as with the help of doctors, therapists, or self-help groups.
J. Gurion, American Health Magazine, March 1990.
And note that the Harvard Medical School says that the support of a good spouse is more important than that of a 12-Step group. But A.A. says just the opposite: "Dump your spouse and marry the A.A. group, because A.A. is The Only Way."
"I decided I must place this program above everything else, even my family, because if I did not maintain my sobriety I would lose my family anyway."
The Big Book, 3rd Edition — Chapter B10, He Sold Himself Short, page 293.
And a rehash of the Big Book that is targeted at youths tells this story of an allegedly-successful recovery:
Even after she remarries, she doesn't lose sight of her priorities. She places God first (Me: but it's not religious, really) and A.A. second. Her husband is never more than the third most important aspect of her life.
Big Book Unplugged; A Young Person's Guide to Alcoholics Anonymous, John R., page 107.
This is all well and good but both of those citations you reference have no direct association with AA. They are just letters and articles. Anne, there are literally millions of letters and articles out there on alcoholism and addictions.
In his book on the treatment of alcoholism, Dr. Sheldon Zimberg surveyed the literature for reports of spontaneous remission of alcoholism:
Spontaneous Remission in Alcoholism
A number of studies have found that a small percentage of alcoholics improve to the point of remission of problems associated with alcohol consumption. Bailey and Stewart (235) interviewed alcoholics after three years without treatment and found that about 27 percent of the former patients denied alcoholism. Cahalan (268) in a national drinking practices study noted that drinking problems decrease in men after age 50 and the amount of alcohol consumed also decreases. Cahalan, Cisin, and Crossley (11) in another national survey of drinking practices found that about one-third more individuals had problem drinking in a period before their three-year study period than during the study period itself, suggesting a tendency toward spontaneous remission of drinking problems. Goodwin, Crane, and Guze (269) found that on an eight-year follow-up with no treatment about 18 percent of the alcoholic felons had been abstinent for at least two years. Lemere (238) reported long-term abstinence in 11 percent of untreated alcoholics over an unspecified interval. Kendall and Staton (236) reported 15 percent abstinence in untreated alcoholics after a seven-year follow-up. Kissin, Platz, and Su (203) reported a 4 percent one-year improvement rate in untreated lower class alcoholics. Imber et al. (10) described a follow-up of 58 alcoholics who received no treatment for their alcoholism. It was noted that the rate of abstinence was 15 percent at one year and 11 percent after three years.
In sum, the preponderance of these studies suggests that a spontaneous remission rate for alcoholism of at least one-year duration is about 4-18 percent. Successful treatment would, therefore, have to produce rates of improvement significantly above this probable range of spontaneous remission.
10. Imber, S., Schultz, E., Funderburk, F., Allen, R. and Flamer, R. The Fate of the Untreated Alcoholic. J. Nerv and Ment. Dis., 1976, 162:238-247.
11. Cahalan, D., Cisin, I. H. and Crossley, H. M. American Drinking Practices: A National Survey of Drinking Behavior and Attitudes. New Brunswick, Rutgers Center for Alcohol Studies, 1974.
203. Kissin, B., Platz, A. and Su, W. H. Social and Psychological Factors in the Treatment of Chronic Alcoholics. J. Psychiat. Res., 1970, 8:13-27.
235. Bailey, M. B. and Stewart, S. Normal Drinking by Persons Reporting Previous Problem Drinking. Quart. J. Stud. Alc., 1967, 28:305-315.
236. Kendall, R. E. and Staton, M. C. The Fate of Untreated Alcoholics. Quart. J. Stud. Alc., 1966, 27:30-41.
238. Lemere, F. What Happens to Alcoholics. Amer. J. Psychiat., 1953, 109:674-675.
268. Cahalan, D. Problem Drinkers: A National Survey, San Francisco, Jossey-Bass, 1970.
269. Goodwin, W. W., Crane, J. B., and Guze, S. B. Felons Who Drink: An Eight-Year Follow-up. Quart. J. Stud. Alc., 1971, 32:136-147.
The Clinical Management of Alcoholism, Sheldon Zimberg, M.D., page 179, footnotes on pages 223 to 234.
The key sentence is the last one — for a treatment program to claim success, it would have to produce recovery rates greater than the usual rate of spontaneous remission. Alcoholics Anonymous comes nowhere near exceeding a 4 to 18 percent per year recovery rate.
Personally, I find the 18 percent number to be far too high to believe. (At that rate, 85% of all of the alcoholics in the country should have recovered in just the last 10 years. Obviously, that has not happened.) I agree with R. G. Smart, who calculated a spontaneous remission rate for alcoholism of between 3.7 and 7.4 percent per year. As a simple rule of thumb, the middle value of 5 or 5.5 percent per year is quite believable. Still, the claimed success rate of Alcoholics Anonymous does not even exceed that much lower rate of spontaneous remission.
This is all well and good also but this has nothing to do with the purpose of AA or what AA is trying to do. Anne, we are not a program, marketing a product, saying we are going to get everyone sober.
-
If you have evidence that AA is hurting people I am open to reading it,
Yes, it's from the Orange Papers so no doubt you'll dismiss it but notice the sources he cites. And why you're even in this discussion when you've admitted that you have no knowledge of and haven't read the BB, I don't know why you feel compelled to argue the point. As I said before, maybe you should refrain from commenting until you know what you're talking about.
Well it is his opinions and I could find letters and articles to supports all of my opinions about everything I think of, if that is what I want to do. My problem is none of these articles you posted here have really anything to do with AA, directly.
Just a few.....
The Harvard Mental Health Letter, Volume 12, Number 4, October 1995,
American Health Magazine
Dr. Sheldon Zimberg
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-eff ... ard_Mental (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-effectiveness.html#Harvard_Mental)
The Harvard Mental Health Letter, from The Harvard Medical School, stated quite plainly:
On their own
There is a high rate of recovery among alcoholics and addicts, treated and untreated. According to one estimate, heroin addicts break the habit in an average of 11 years. Another estimate is that at least 50% of alcoholics eventually free themselves although only 10% are ever treated. One recent study found that 80% of all alcoholics who recover for a year or more do so on their own, some after being unsuccessfully treated. When a group of these self-treated alcoholics was interviewed, 57% said they simply decided that alcohol was bad for them. Twenty-nine percent said health problems, frightening experiences, accidents, or blackouts persuaded them to quit. Others used such phrases as "Things were building up" or "I was sick and tired of it." Support from a husband or wife was important in sustaining the resolution.
Treatment of Drug Abuse and Addiction — Part III, The Harvard Mental Health Letter, Volume 12, Number 4, October 1995, page 3.
(See Aug. (Part I), Sept. (Part II), Oct. 1995 (Part III).)
So much for the sayings that "Everybody needs a support group" and "Nobody can do it alone". Most successful people do.
OK, Harvard Medical wrote a letter, did they write it to AA, was it a rebuttal for a opinion concerning the viability of AA, was it in response to a letter AA wrote about itself or wrote to Harvard Medical. Maybe it was just a letter Harvard wrote concerning Alcoholism. Great we need this information out there, no one will argue this Anne.
I can not even understand why your arguing about a organization that you really know nothing about or what it is trying to accomplish.
Likewise, American Health Magazine reported:
...people are about ten times as likely to change on their own as with the help of doctors, therapists, or self-help groups.
J. Gurion, American Health Magazine, March 1990.
And note that the Harvard Medical School says that the support of a good spouse is more important than that of a 12-Step group. But A.A. says just the opposite: "Dump your spouse and marry the A.A. group, because A.A. is The Only Way."
"I decided I must place this program above everything else, even my family, because if I did not maintain my sobriety I would lose my family anyway."
The Big Book, 3rd Edition — Chapter B10, He Sold Himself Short, page 293.
And a rehash of the Big Book that is targeted at youths tells this story of an allegedly-successful recovery:
Even after she remarries, she doesn't lose sight of her priorities. She places God first (Me: but it's not religious, really) and A.A. second. Her husband is never more than the third most important aspect of her life.
Big Book Unplugged; A Young Person's Guide to Alcoholics Anonymous, John R., page 107.
This is all well and good but both of those citations you reference have no direct association with AA. They are just letters and articles. Anne, there are literally millions of letters and articles out there on alcoholism and addictions.
In his book on the treatment of alcoholism, Dr. Sheldon Zimberg surveyed the literature for reports of spontaneous remission of alcoholism:
Spontaneous Remission in Alcoholism
A number of studies have found that a small percentage of alcoholics improve to the point of remission of problems associated with alcohol consumption. Bailey and Stewart (235) interviewed alcoholics after three years without treatment and found that about 27 percent of the former patients denied alcoholism. Cahalan (268) in a national drinking practices study noted that drinking problems decrease in men after age 50 and the amount of alcohol consumed also decreases. Cahalan, Cisin, and Crossley (11) in another national survey of drinking practices found that about one-third more individuals had problem drinking in a period before their three-year study period than during the study period itself, suggesting a tendency toward spontaneous remission of drinking problems. Goodwin, Crane, and Guze (269) found that on an eight-year follow-up with no treatment about 18 percent of the alcoholic felons had been abstinent for at least two years. Lemere (238) reported long-term abstinence in 11 percent of untreated alcoholics over an unspecified interval. Kendall and Staton (236) reported 15 percent abstinence in untreated alcoholics after a seven-year follow-up. Kissin, Platz, and Su (203) reported a 4 percent one-year improvement rate in untreated lower class alcoholics. Imber et al. (10) described a follow-up of 58 alcoholics who received no treatment for their alcoholism. It was noted that the rate of abstinence was 15 percent at one year and 11 percent after three years.
In sum, the preponderance of these studies suggests that a spontaneous remission rate for alcoholism of at least one-year duration is about 4-18 percent. Successful treatment would, therefore, have to produce rates of improvement significantly above this probable range of spontaneous remission.
10. Imber, S., Schultz, E., Funderburk, F., Allen, R. and Flamer, R. The Fate of the Untreated Alcoholic. J. Nerv and Ment. Dis., 1976, 162:238-247.
11. Cahalan, D., Cisin, I. H. and Crossley, H. M. American Drinking Practices: A National Survey of Drinking Behavior and Attitudes. New Brunswick, Rutgers Center for Alcohol Studies, 1974.
203. Kissin, B., Platz, A. and Su, W. H. Social and Psychological Factors in the Treatment of Chronic Alcoholics. J. Psychiat. Res., 1970, 8:13-27.
235. Bailey, M. B. and Stewart, S. Normal Drinking by Persons Reporting Previous Problem Drinking. Quart. J. Stud. Alc., 1967, 28:305-315.
236. Kendall, R. E. and Staton, M. C. The Fate of Untreated Alcoholics. Quart. J. Stud. Alc., 1966, 27:30-41.
238. Lemere, F. What Happens to Alcoholics. Amer. J. Psychiat., 1953, 109:674-675.
268. Cahalan, D. Problem Drinkers: A National Survey, San Francisco, Jossey-Bass, 1970.
269. Goodwin, W. W., Crane, J. B., and Guze, S. B. Felons Who Drink: An Eight-Year Follow-up. Quart. J. Stud. Alc., 1971, 32:136-147.
The Clinical Management of Alcoholism, Sheldon Zimberg, M.D., page 179, footnotes on pages 223 to 234.
The key sentence is the last one — for a treatment program to claim success, it would have to produce recovery rates greater than the usual rate of spontaneous remission. Alcoholics Anonymous comes nowhere near exceeding a 4 to 18 percent per year recovery rate.
Personally, I find the 18 percent number to be far too high to believe. (At that rate, 85% of all of the alcoholics in the country should have recovered in just the last 10 years. Obviously, that has not happened.) I agree with R. G. Smart, who calculated a spontaneous remission rate for alcoholism of between 3.7 and 7.4 percent per year. As a simple rule of thumb, the middle value of 5 or 5.5 percent per year is quite believable. Still, the claimed success rate of Alcoholics Anonymous does not even exceed that much lower rate of spontaneous remission.
This is all well and good also but this has nothing to do with the purpose of AA or what AA is trying to do. Anne, we are not a program, marketing a product, saying we are going to get everyone sober.