Fornits
General Interest => Open Free for All => Topic started by: Botched Programming on August 31, 2010, 12:14:53 PM
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Treatment centers and Anonymous programs call it a disease... Insurance companies pay benefits so people can learn the dogmatic 12 steps. Please discuss. :seg:
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Excellent thread topic Botched. As I stated in a previous post I dont buy the "its a disease" cop out either. "Pathological self-indulgence" would be a better term to describe most folks with a drug "problem". They dont stop because ultimately they choose not to stop. It seems quite simple to me.
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It really does boil down to that. If you have a problem with drugs or alcohol, you need to make a decision to stop. Period. I'm not saying it's easy by any means, but that's what it really comes down to. I'm not saying people don't need help in stopping, but to call it a 'disease' does a dis-service to real diseases and, as you said, absolves the person of their own personal responsibility. Look at what happens every time some goddamned celebrity gets caught doing something, even unrelated to drug use......they go into rehab and all is forgiven. AO has some really good stuff regarding the disease model and how he stopped and he gives alternatives to AA for those that want help but don't want to join the cult. He also has a section devoted to "What's good about AA". http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-whats_good.html (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-whats_good.html)
Lizard Brain Addiction Monster:
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-addmonst.html (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-addmonst.html)
And some of the letters he gets....he responds to every single one. Sometimes it takes him a while because he's bombarded with mail, but he does answer all of them. They're quite enlightening. Mail in green, his answers in blue.
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-let ... what_works (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-letters133.html#what_works)
Date: 20.07.2009 03:45 (answered 21 July 2009)
Subject: Staying off alcohol
Sender: Lynn C.
Hi Orange, Thank you so much for your papers. I have attended AA off and on now for almost 36 years and have remained on and off alcohol for 36 years. Yes, I guess you will agree with me that AA DOES NOT WORK. I too questioned all their psychobabble and psudo crap for years — in my mind of course because if one dares to speak aloud you will be shunned — and told you are "in denial" whatever that sack load of shit is supposed to mean.
No, I am not a bad person, I do not need to confess all my sins, certainly no more than the next person, I do not have a higher power (even if it is a No.9 bus????!!!!!!!!!!) yes I have actually been told to believe that. I do not need religion, I do not need to hear any more of their stories, interesting they may be at first but its like seeing a film or reading a book twenty times, one gets BORED. I do not need to attend any more dreadful meetings that tell me "keep coming back". I am a perfectly rounded human being, I am a totally fabulous person that likes socialising with friends, family and workmates. I love parties, I love going out for meals, I have brought up a beautiful daughter who is a credit to me. I work, I have a stimulating and wonderful hobby, I have loads of wonderful friends, I have a supportive family who love me. I am popular and a happy, healthy person who loves life.
BUT................. I have found that alcohol for me is a problem, when I drink it I find I cannot stop at a reasonable level but have to go on and on, like you said until I make myself very ill, or even die, although hopefully not yet. I have tried many times to give up alcohol myself and have succeeded for weeks and even months. The longest I lasted was 5 years. I just wonder if you have any magic ingredient in developing a mind-set to get off the stuff completely. I just feel I am missing out when I abstain completely, yes I know its all an illusion and that the bad times are not worth the good. I know loads of people who have given up totally on their on accord and live very happy, healthy lives thank you very much. I just think perhaps I even need hypnosis, this is the only path I haven't tried.
Got any hints and tips.
Thanks
Lily
PS I gave up smoking in 2006 so I'm not that weak!!
Hi Lily,
Thanks for the letter, and I hope you are well.
Yes, I have some hints and techniques.
1. My favorite technique is being aware of what the Lizard Brain Addiction Monster is doing. Quitting is one thing; staying quit is something very different. And I found that it was almost invariably the stupid Lizard Brain Addiction Monster that got me into trouble when I was tempted to have a cigarette or a drink after I had quit. He would whisper things like,
* "We've got it under control now. It's been so long since we've had one, with no cheating whatsoever, so we've got it under control now."
* "We deserve to relax and have just one now. It will be okay."
* "Just one won't hurt."
* "I'm so stressed out right now, I just need a little hit of something to get things on an even keel."
* "We are missing out on the good times when we completely abstain."
* "We are missing out on all of the good stuff in life, so let's join these other people and have a good time."
* "Heck, you only live once, so let's live it with all of the gusto that we can."
Then he will use brain-damaged logic like,
* "Look at all of those people drinking in moderation. So we can do it too."
* "Cigarettes aren't hurting those people. They are in perfect health."
* "Time to return to normalcy and be like everybody else."
* "Time to come home to the good times."
* "Why say why?"
* "There's nothing wrong with a vacation once in a while."
* and on, and on...
Above all, remember that the Lizard Brain's thoughts are not your thoughts. He will try to fool you into believing that his thoughts are your thoughts, but they are not. He is just a thirsty little toad who will do or say anything to get you to do what he wants. But he is not you.
For me, understanding that the little voice in my head that demands a drink or a smoke IS NOT ME helps a lot. I can see that the Addiction Monster has his own agenda, and he will do anything and everything he can to get me to smoke and drink, but he is not really me, and his thoughts are not my thoughts.
That's really important: His thoughts are not my thoughts.
Also, His wishes are not necessarily my wishes.
So read that page on the Lizard Brain Addiction Monster. I find being aware of what is happening there to be a life-saver.
2. Then another thing that really helps is remembering the pain and the damage that was caused by alcohol and tobacco. I have a very basic gut-level revulsion to alcohol now, because parts of my body remember how sick alcohol made me, and how much it messed me up. When I am tempted to drink, remembering the pain and the damage quickly kills any desire to drink.
3. Then there is that great slogan,
"Just don't take that first drink, not ever, no matter what."
I live by that one. It's totally true that if you don't take the first drink, then you can't drink too much, and you can't get into trouble with alcohol, and you can't get readdicted.
4. And then there is thinking about the future: Thinking about all of the negative and painful things that would happen if I went back to drinking. That's good for quickly killing the desire to drink, too. At a SMART meeting, a fellow named Kevin said that his favorite slogan was,
"Play the tape to the end."
That is, consider the whole thing like a movie on videotape. It starts with the joy of drinking and partying, and ends with sickness, misery, shame, poverty, and death. Seeing the end that alcohol leads to also quickly kills the pleasant siren song of drink.
And, as we were just saying in a previous letter, we can even use negative emotions to our advantage, like spite and resentment, as in, "I can't possibly relapse now and give my back-biting critics the satisfaction. No way will I let that happen." That is also playing the tape to the end.
5. And then there is SMART. SMART helps with both the second and the fourth items. SMART teaches a "Risk/Reward Analysis", which is just a fancy way of saying that you can examine any imagined course of action and compare the benefits with the costs, and see which is greater. (Personally, I'm in the habit of calling it a Cost/Benefit Analysis, which is the name that accountants use.) I gave a few examples of such analyses in earlier letters, here and here and here.
6. And that leads to the usual list of support groups and forums:
Check these out:
1. SMART: Self Management And Recovery Training.
http://www.smartrecovery.org/ (http://www.smartrecovery.org/)
Rational, sane, common-sense recovery techniques. Based on Rational Emotive Behavioral Therapy, the brainchild of Dr. Albert Ellis.
* SMART online chat groups, http://smartrecovery.infopop.cc/paraentry.php (http://smartrecovery.infopop.cc/paraentry.php), and
* SMART message boards, http://smartrecovery.infopop.cc/eve/ubb.x (http://smartrecovery.infopop.cc/eve/ubb.x)
* Also see the book, When AA Doesn't Work for You, Rational Steps to Quitting Alcohol by Albert Ellis, Ph.D., and Emmett Velten, Ph.D.
2. WFS (Women For Sobriety)
http://www.womenforsobriety.org/ (http://www.womenforsobriety.org/)
WFS also has online chat groups:
http://www.womenforsobriety.org/news_co ... /chat.html (http://www.womenforsobriety.org/news_conferences/chat.html)
For local group meetings in your area you can also call 1-800-333-1606.
3. SOS, Secular Organizations for Sobriety, a.k.a. "Save Our Selves".
SOS is an alternative recovery method for those alcoholics or drug addicts who are uncomfortable with the spiritual or superstitious content of widely available 12-Step programs.
* Another web site: http://www.sos-rochester.org/ (http://www.sos-rochester.org/) — Rochester, NY, SOS on the web.
* Also see the book, SOS Sobriety, The Proven Alternative to 12-Step Programs by James Christopher
4. LifeRing Secular Recovery (LSR)
LifeRing provides live, online meetings on the Internet:
* http://www.unhooked.com/chat/Chat.html (http://www.unhooked.com/chat/Chat.html) — the Unhooked chat
* http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/LSRmail/ (http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/LSRmail/) — a Yahoogroup, "LifeRing Secular Recovery"
5. http://www.rational.org/ (http://www.rational.org/) — Rational Recovery. This is not a group any more. It's a web site that teaches and sells Addictive Voice Recognition Therapy. That is essentially the same thing as learning to recognize the seductive yammering of the Lizard Brain Addiction Monster.
6. http://xsteppers.multiply.com/ (http://xsteppers.multiply.com/) — X-Steppers, have moved from MSN and found a new home on Multiply.
7. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/12-Step-free (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/12-Step-free) — Self-described as: 'This is a large yahoo group of ex-AA and ex-"XA" (meaning any "anonymous" program based on the 12 steps originally created by AA) people. It is very open to debate and free thinking, but it's main point is for those needing to be free of the 12 steps.'
8. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/without_aa/ (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/without_aa/) — Without A.A.
9. http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/EFTCoaa (http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/EFTCoaa)
Self-described as: 'This group is called Escaping From The Cult of AA. Despite only one membership "drive", it has continuously grown over a year's time.'
10. You can also get some more links from the start of the links page.
7. There is a list of other discussions about what works, here. Also see this letter.
Date: 23.07.2009 08:21 (answered 26 July 2009)
Sender: Ted B.
Subject: the 3 unwritten rules of AA
Hi Orange,
thanks so much for the website and the truth about this propaganda that has been sewn into the social fabric of the mainstream by AA and the recovery/treatment industry. I will write again, but this first letter is about why I quit AA.
First off, I admit that I have trouble committing to and finishing alot of things (college, the Navy, AA).... but I did do the best I could with AA. I got a sponsor, did the steps as best I could and shared at meetings... sometimes.
Before I read the Orange Papers I was not aware of how dangerous AA thinking (or not thinking) could be. The thing that really stuck out for me was the information about the Synanon games and the cult that used them, and their psychopathic leader. What is really very disturbing is that they use that very method at the main rehab center here on O'ahu. I've seen them do this while I was in there (17 days, left against 'medical advice')... and no one questioned it. Everyone seemed to believe that it had therapeutic value. I thought it was strange, bizarre mind games, and dreaded the idea of being put in the hot seat. One woman in the outpatient program I currently attend who went to that rehab for help, had her counselor tell her "you're a drug addict, you're a thief, and a liar". Then this woman (the client) said that that was good for her and what she needed to hear.
The same woman said that her sponsor grilled her for hours on her 4th step and asked her 33 questions for each person she "harmed" on her 5th step. I don't think it was necessary for her to be interrogated like a criminal suspect.
Anyway, back to me. After my last "relapse", my sponsor's sponsor (grand sponsor) suggested I do 2 things. One was to write a farewell letter to alcohol (not really a bad idea), and the other was to write down my thoughts that preceded my last binge (another good idea, he was much more intelligent than most of the people I've met in AA).
Well, I did both, but what I noticed about the 2nd exercise was that my first thoughts surrounding my last binge were that I was sick and tired of going to and sitting through AA meetings. Of course any AAer would say "there's the problem, you gave up on the program". I suppose that if a person busies themselves with meetings and service work and sponsoring, that could keep them sober, but I would think that they would have to buy into the whole philosophy of the program to stay motivated and I don't see how anyone can.
When we were children did we not learn about right and wrong, good and evil, and religion? The 5th step seems Catholic in nature, and for most non-Catholics (at least me anyway) seems bizarre and unnecessary. But I did it, as I was supposed to, and desperately wanted to lose the obsession, or desire, for alcohol. Everyone seemed to think AA had (or was) the answer.
The steps seem to be geared toward the morally inept, and spiritually bankrupt (by the way my former sponsor and his sponsor were both atheists that used AA itself as their higher power) and egotists. This is not a good way to view yourself if part of the reason for your heavy drinking was low self-esteem (as it was for me).
Not knowing the cult origins of AA, and not feeling good about myself anyway, however, the steps seemed relatively harmless and had this great reputation as a spiritual, moral support group program. That's what everyone seems to think. I was not willing however to go into AA's 3 unwritten steps which sound more like membership rules if you go to enough meetings. Aside from speakers who go up and praise the program while at the same time talking about how screwed up they are even though they're sober, or the ones who just can't shut up about how great they are now that they're in AA, you hear over and over and over again...
1. Get a sponsor, stay in touch with them, and if they become unavailable (or God forbid get a life), fire them and get a new one. Later, you must sponsor a newcomer (the only way to keep it is to give it away).
2. Get into service and commit to your obligation at your Home Group (if your job and your family couldn't keep you sober, this will surely do the trick).
3. Share at meetings (talk about your personal life in front of a group of strangers), go up and tell your life story (not the whole thing, just the part about your alcohol/drug abuse and how AA saved your life)... and sing the praises of this wonderful 'fellowship'.
The only thing I can say in favor of AA is that if you get too lonely and need to be around people who aren't drinking/using they're available, but other than that... that's it! Don't wait for a miracle that is not going to happen.
That's my story (part of it anyway).. Thanks again Orange, and keep up the great work.
Ted
Hi Ted,
Thanks for the letter and the compliments.
The first thing that caught my eye was the mention of Synanon games. Synanon — the insane brainchild of Chuck Dederich — is the root of all of the "confrontational therapy" and "attack therapy" techniques and organizations, and it is still quite popular, as you noticed at your local "treatment center", in spite of the fact that it does not work and produces bad results. Heck, Chuck Dederich and his commune degenerated into a bunch of crazies, and Dederich's lieutenants went to prison for attempted murder of critics and defectors, and Dederich avoided prison only by copping a plea and giving up leadership of Synanon. So much for the wonderful mental health produced by Synanon Games and confrontational therapy.
Nevertheless, Synanon was the model for a whole crop of child and grandchild programs: The Seed, Straight, Inc., Kids of New Jersey, Delancy Street, Drug Free America Foundation, Daytop, Phoenix House, Amity, and more.
Right off the top of my head, I know that half of them, The Seed, Straight, Kids of New Jersey, and Drug Free America Foundation were guilty of vicious child abuse. That's why they don't exist any more. They were shut down amid criminal investigations and lawsuits. But other descendants have taken their places.
The professions of psychology and psychiatry must be in very sick shape if shams and quackery like Synanon Games and "confrontational therapy" that are the best that they can recommend for drug and alcohol problems.
I also agree with the rest of your letter. "The Three Other Steps" are true. Funny how cults' programs seem to always have some more duties that aren't written down, or mentioned beforehand. That's Progressive Commitments, another standard cult characteristic.
The third one, "Share at Meetings", reminds me of the Self-Sell propaganda technique. You are urged to speak, and an unspoken assumption is that you will say things that are acceptable to the group. You'd better, if you want their approving smiles rather than hard frowns... So you scrounge through your mind trying to find something positive to say about A.A. and the program and the great progress you are making... The idea is, that you will start to believe that stuff. You will sell yourself on the idea.
Make them say it enough times, and they will start to believe it. That's Use of the Cognitive Dissonance Technique.
A wacky cult called "Nichiren Shoshu Buddhism" that I was briefly trying out in the seventies used the same technique. At Sunday morning meetings, newcomers were urged to get up in front of the whole congregation and declare what wonderful things have come to them, and which of their wishes were granted, by chanting "Nam-myoho-renge-kyo" at a printed scroll. Absurd as it may sound, say it enough times, and you will start to believe it. They did.
Oh, and I can think of one other "unwritten rule" of A.A.: "You can't criticize The Program."
Have a good day.
== Orange
Date: 24.07.2009 14:02 (answered 31 July 2009)
Sender: Sherp
Subject: A debating technique question
Hi Orange,
I wat to know if you ever encountered this tactic of debating/arguing? I've read a good deal of the debating techniques page, but not all of it so if it's on there and I didn't read it yet I apologize in advance.
Demand proof of your opponent's position while at the same time delegitmizing your opponent's point or the way you answer it before your opponent makes it.
It works something like this:
Give me ONE valid study that shows the ineffectivness of AA ! — And DON'T tell me of the Vaillant Harvard study! It's over 20 years old! He's more or less disowned it and since then the bulk of scientific data we have now clearly refutes it!
Obviously you have to know of the arugment that's coming so you would have to have encounter it before. You also have to lie (I believe Lie with qualifiers may be the correct term.)
I also see people do it in messageboards. When people respond to a usually particulaly long comment They'll try to refute each point by quoting every comment in order (the same way you answer some emails.) The person wanting a response will belittle this technique and the person doing it beforehand.
Are you gonna quote everything I wrote in order and respond to it? That's so lame and annoying! Why don't you just answer what I wrote without trying to make it look like your a some type of scholar or something???
Or at other times, they do the "I'm fed up" bit.
Don't Give me the "Blah Blah Blah" argument. I'm tired of hearing it!
Once again, apologies if it's up on your site already. : )
Sherp
Hi Sherp,
Thanks for the letter. And no, it isn't already on the site. I'll have to add that technique — actually, those techniques.
You touched on more than one technique — three, I think.
1. Not only is there Rejecting The Answer In Advance like you described — "And DON'T tell me of the Vaillant Harvard study!" — and
2. Delegitimizing the Rebuttal in Advance, like you also described — "Are you gonna quote everything I wrote in order and respond to it?" —
3. but there is also Spurious Delegitimization Of Undesired Evidence.
It does not matter whether Dr. Vaillant "has disowned" the results of his research project at Cambridge Hospital that he described at length in his first book — the results of valid tests are still the results of valid tests. It's like, if I "disown" my previous statement that I'm a 62-year-old American male, does that suddenly change me into a dashing young 20-something guy? (Wouldn't that be a great way to get eternal youth?)
And I have not heard of Dr. Vaillant ever conducting another controlled study of Alcoholics Anonymous treatment that came up with a different result. Being a true believer in Steppism, Dr. Vaillant is just unhappy with the real facts that he unintentionally revealed — that A.A. did not work to make alcoholics quit drinking, but it did raise the death rate in alcoholics.
I can understand how Dr. Vaillant is unhappy with that answer, and wants to "disown" the results, but that doesn't change the facts. But it's a great propaganda trick to say, "Dr. Vaillant has since disowned that study."
And the statement that "...since then the bulk of scientific data we have now clearly refutes it!", isn't "lying with qualifiers." It is just plain old lying. There is no "bulk of scientific data" that says any such thing. The bulk of the scientific data says that A.A. does not work. All of the valid controlled tests found A.A. to be a failure, so when a Stepper argues that a bunch of "studies" showed that A.A. works great, he is merely referring to some phony propaganda articles that are based on no actual proper tests. Look here and here and here and here for four collections of such propaganda.
Have a good day now, and thanks again for some additions to the Propaganda and Debating Techniques web page.
== Orange
And they really have elevated Bill Wilson almost to the level of a deity....
(http://http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-MOB_stained_glass.jpg)
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:twofinger:
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Treatment centers and Anonymous programs call it a disease... Insurance companies pay benefits so people can learn the dogmatic 12 steps. Please discuss. :seg:
:soapbox:
:on phone:
MY DAUGHTER IS STILL IN THE IOWA COUNTY (wisconsin) JAIL CAN ANYBODY PAY HER BAIL AND GIVE HER A RIDE HOME? $100.00 :beat:
NO I HAVE NO FRIENDS!!! (WITH MONEY) :deal:
[attachment=0:rnwg4m3k]067h.jpg[/attachment:rnwg4m3k]
OOOPS I HAVE MULTIPLE ACCOUNTS DISORDER____________________DSM5 ::evil:: ::puke:: ::OMG::
WELL I FOR ONE RULE THE WHOLE WORLD ME AND MY DRAMA BOX!!!
I AM A LYING CUNT OF THE WORLD~~~~~~~~~~
I DO NOT BELIEVE IN GOD BECAUSE I AM AN IDIOT WHO LISTENS TO PROPIGANDA. :jamin: :blabla:
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::fullofshit::
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Treatment centers and Anonymous programs call it a disease... Insurance companies pay benefits so people can learn the dogmatic 12 steps. Please discuss. :seg:
:soapbox:
:on phone:
MY DAUGHTER IS STILL IN THE IOWA COUNTY (wisconsin) JAIL CAN ANYBODY PAY HER BAIL AND GIVE HER A RIDE HOME? $100.00 :beat:
NO I HAVE NO FRIENDS!!! (WITH MONEY) :deal:
[attachment=0:26pkjr87]067h.jpg[/attachment:26pkjr87]
OOOPS I HAVE MULTIPLE ACCOUNTS DISORDER____________________DSM5 ::evil:: ::puke:: ::OMG::
WELL I FOR ONE RULE THE WHOLE WORLD ME AND MY DRAMA BOX!!!
I AM A LYING CUNT OF THE WORLD~~~~~~~~~~
I DO NOT BELIEVE IN GOD BECAUSE I AM AN IDIOT WHO LISTENS TO PROPIGANDA. :jamin: :blabla:
I am really sorry that your daugter is in jail with such a little bond.... if this is through a bondsman he will work with you till it is paid off before court... And I am so sorry for you mentality disorder even though it is no fault of ours.
Peace and much healing
:peace:
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:whip:
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::OMG::
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:seg:
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I WANT A CARTOON CROTCH LIKE OURS THEN I CAN NOT GET FUCKED OVER And mutilated while everyone around me laughs
http://www.google.com/images?q=sexy%20p ... 24&bih=549 (http://www.google.com/images?q=sexy%20pirate&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=og&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wi&biw=1024&bih=549)
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:eek:
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Treatment centers and Anonymous programs call it a disease... Insurance companies pay benefits so people can learn the dogmatic 12 steps. Please discuss. :seg:
:soapbox:
:on phone:
MY DAUGHTER IS STILL IN THE IOWA COUNTY (wisconsin) JAIL CAN ANYBODY PAY HER BAIL AND GIVE HER A RIDE HOME? $100.00 :beat:
NO I HAVE NO FRIENDS!!! (WITH MONEY) :deal:
[attachment=0:1mpa11zj]067h.jpg[/attachment:1mpa11zj]
OOOPS I HAVE MULTIPLE ACCOUNTS DISORDER____________________DSM5 ::evil:: ::puke:: ::OMG::
WELL I FOR ONE RULE THE WHOLE WORLD ME AND MY DRAMA BOX!!!
I AM A LYING CUNT OF THE WORLD~~~~~~~~~~
I DO NOT BELIEVE IN GOD BECAUSE I AM AN IDIOT WHO LISTENS TO PROPIGANDA. :jamin: :blabla:
I am really sorry that your daugter is in jail with such a little bond.... if this is through a bondsman he will work with you till it is paid off before court... And I am so sorry for you mentality disorder even though it is no fault of ours.
Peace and much healing
:peace:
PEACE ON EARTH? WHERE?
(I do enjoy your avatars :eek: )
I LIKE HORROR MOVIES AND WEED.
"CRIME OF THE CENTURY"_______________CLAIRE :on phone: WOODMAN
It's a question of judge me or my peers... I have always treated you with much respect Eliscu and valued your opinion, however at this point in time ' we do not see the same views.. that is what makes us individuals. I respect your thoughts and I know you will mine...
Peace and much healing
Botched
:peace:
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I have a hard time with the disease model, too. "My disease made me do it." I just don't buy it. It's just another get out of jail for free card, like some people use Jesus.
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Guess what people neither did Bill Wilson, Dr. Bob Smith, Ebby and 85% of AA. So thanks for pointing this out but what you need to remember this came from your Treatment Centers. Basically it is people like yourselves here, your Programs and the Employees that brought this Concept of "this is a Disease" to the Forefront.
Folks we can't help y'all here, go to your TC's and bitch at them for taking AA's 12 step principles and corrupting them, which then produced, "YOU".
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You really are a self-righteous, sanctimonious asshole, you know that, DannyBoi?
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I was trying to discuss my experience with AA in another thread awhile back when Danny attacked me, claiming I was a liar and had never attended an AA meeting. As if anyone who has anything negative to say about his AA god must have never really attended. Hey Botched, do you remember how Atlanta Straight used to encourage phasers to go to AA/NA once you reached 4th or 5th phase? In fact it seems like some attendance at AA was required to 7step, was it not? Straight inc and their 7 steps can kiss my ass right along with AA's 12 steps. Witchcraft, cultish BS.
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I was trying to discuss my experience with AA in another thread awhile back when Danny attacked me, claiming I was a liar and had never attended an AA meeting. As if anyone who has anything negative to say about his AA god must have never really attended. Hey Botched, do you remember how Atlanta Straight used to encourage phasers to go to AA/NA once you reached 4th or 5th phase? In fact it seems like some attendance at AA was required to 7step, was it not? Straight inc and their 7 steps can kiss my ass right along with AA's 12 steps. Witchcraft, cultish BS.
Hey Shaggy... you are correct during 4th and 5th phase vacations phasers were required to go to AA or NA meetings in order to establish a support group for when they 7 stepped. Parents were required to go as well as phasers were not allowed to be alone on vacations... The steps are the indoctrination into their cult way of thinking.... Even after getting out of that hell hole that Straight was, AA and NA still required people to share their feelings. Spent too many years doing that shit, was like casting pearls before swine.... Thank god I found the orange papers and recognized 12 step programs for what they really are... Nothing more than cults..
Peace and much healing to ya bro...
:peace:
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I remember going to them in Atlanta while still on my phases. It was another way to kiss ass and look good by putting in Permissions to go to those fucked up AA meetings. Sometimes you would see a staff member at a meeting and this made it look like you were really serious about getting straight. Of course at that time I was so Straight brainwashed that i believed I really needed that shit. Yeah I was 15 years old and my total drug history consisted of smoking pot before school and drinking some beer at a party or two. Straight and AA were there to convice me what an addict I was though. I'm feelin nauseous now.
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I was trying to discuss my experience with AA in another thread awhile back when Danny attacked me, claiming I was a liar and had never attended an AA meeting. As if anyone who has anything negative to say about his AA god must have never really attended. Hey Botched, do you remember how Atlanta Straight used to encourage phasers to go to AA/NA once you reached 4th or 5th phase? In fact it seems like some attendance at AA was required to 7step, was it not? Straight inc and their 7 steps can kiss my ass right along with AA's 12 steps. Witchcraft, cultish BS.
Shaggy instead of continuing to lie, just stop and remember when you first started to attack me about a month ago. How you were going to stay on my ass on every thread I posted on.
Just because some program told you to go to AA/NA does not mean you were in AA/NA and truly understood what was happening. I hope this is not to complex for you to understand.
Straight inc and their 7 steps can kiss my ass right along with AA's 12 steps. Witchcraft, cultish BS.
Exactly what I have been trying to say the whole time. Thanks for your honesty Shaggish. Y'all have a major resentment.
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Why must you always throw around the liar label Danny? Not very nice and guaranteed to start another pissing contest when its not really necessary. I decided I wouldn't waste my time coming after you on every post cause you already had plenty of enemies here doing that already. Everyone who knows about my Straight experience knows that I attended AA while in the program and attended it heavily for months after i got out of Straight. I guess if you could attend it without getting caught up in all the cultish aspects of it then good for you. Obviously Danny has replaced heroin with AA, good for you Danny. You traded one fucked up bad habit for another. Congratulations.
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Why must you always throw around the liar label Danny? Not very nice and guaranteed to start another pissing contest when its not really necessary.
'Cause he's an idiot who can't back up his bullshit and has to resort to trying to discredit anything or anyone who dares to ridicule or even question his beloved Stepcult.
I decided I wouldn't waste my time coming after you on every post cause you already had plenty of enemies here doing that already. Everyone who knows about my Straight experience knows that I attended AA while in the program and attended it heavily for months after i got out of Straight. I guess if you could attend it without getting caught up in all the cultish aspects of it then good for you. Obviously Danny has replaced heroin with AA, good for you Danny. You traded one fucked up bad habit for another. Congratulations.
Personally, I think Danny would be a much better human being if he had stayed with the smack instead of kicking it and embracing Stepcraft, but that's just my opinion. Junkies can be really annoying, but Danny is even more so-----most junkies shut the fuck up after their fix, but Danny keeps going and going. Get back on heroin, Danny, we'll all be much happier.
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Why must you always throw around the liar label Danny? Not very nice and guaranteed to start another pissing contest when its not really necessary. I decided I wouldn't waste my time coming after you on every post cause you already had plenty of enemies here doing that already. Everyone who knows about my Straight experience knows that I attended AA while in the program and attended it heavily for months after i got out of Straight. I guess if you could attend it without getting caught up in all the cultish aspects of it then good for you. Obviously Danny has replaced heroin with AA, good for you Danny. You traded one fucked up bad habit for another. Congratulations.
Because it seems some folks from Straight have a hard time with honesty. That is why I directly call some Straight people liars. When you lie Shaggy to me I will call you on it.
You have done nothing but call me names, troll me on posts and fabricate(lying) stories or twist (lying) what I say to insult me.
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It appears from reading here that many may want to consider that their negative view of AA may be due to its association with their time in Straight. I am sure if they played a particular song (over and over) while there or served Grilled cheese with Velvetta then these would bring about a negative feeling also after-wards. But it would not mean that these things are bad or hurtful even, but they remind you of a time in your life that wasn’t good. I think a little bit of this may be going on.
...
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Why must you always throw around the liar label Danny? Not very nice and guaranteed to start another pissing contest when its not really necessary.
'Cause he's an idiot who can't back up his bullshit and has to resort to trying to discredit anything or anyone who dares to ridicule or even question his beloved Stepcult.
I decided I wouldn't waste my time coming after you on every post cause you already had plenty of enemies here doing that already. Everyone who knows about my Straight experience knows that I attended AA while in the program and attended it heavily for months after i got out of Straight. I guess if you could attend it without getting caught up in all the cultish aspects of it then good for you. Obviously Danny has replaced heroin with AA, good for you Danny. You traded one fucked up bad habit for another. Congratulations.
Personally, I think Danny would be a much better human being if he had stayed with the smack instead of kicking it and embracing Stepcraft, but that's just my opinion. Junkies can be really annoying, but Danny is even more so-----most junkies shut the fuck up after their fix, but Danny keeps going and going. Get back on heroin, Danny, we'll all be much happier.
Thank You for your input. Really this rebut is some good shit, mon. My favorite (because it was cheap) was "Mexican Mud", they always said darker was better. It actually wasn't but like I said it was cheap. Prices sky rocketed right after '74 when Vietnam was coming to a end, so "china white" and the jewel from the "golden triangle" was extremely expensive.
Take care, numb nuts.
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Danny any shit I gave you on here was well earned by yourself. You provoked me and I got a little upset about what a complete tool bag you were being. Let it go and I will too. I am cool with your AA trip too. I just want you to admit that its a cult. Then we will be best buds.
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Danny any shit I gave you on here was well earned by yourself. You provoked me and I got a little upset about what a complete tool bag you were being. Let it go and I will too. I am cool with your AA trip too. I just want you to admit that its a cult. Then we will be best buds.
Shaggoo, I have not earned, "abuse" from you or anybody else. "Please stamp that on your forehead". I did not know, who you were until the moment you showed up harassing me, like your doing now.
Danny, has been the same person since the first day I got here, a straight shooter. You stay on the level with me and I'll do likewise.
Toodles....
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Danny, has been the same person since the first day I got here, a straight shooter. You stay on the level with me and I'll do likewise.
Toodles....
That's right a dry drunk who does not live by any of his precious cults principals or suggestions... :seg:
Maybe you need to go to a meeting and share with the group.... :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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- beer bong enema - :rocker: :rocker: :rocker: :rocker: :rocker: ::OMG:: ::OMG::
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Hey Botched, you know Danny lives in the Atlanta area real close to our best pal D. Buttimer. Buttimer fancies himself some kind of self help guru these days and has his own little cult there so I figured we could take up donations to buy Danny some anger managememnt classes with Buttimer. I bet they would be like two peas in a pod before ya know it.
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Hey Botched, you know Danny lives in the Atlanta area real close to our best pal D. Buttimer. Buttimer fancies himself some kind of self help guru these days and has his own little cult there so I figured we could take up donations to buy Danny some anger managememnt classes with Buttimer. I bet they would be like two peas in a pod before ya know it.
Yeah I saw he posted his telephone number on the Elan site... Saw the 404 area code and knew where he was.... As far as Dennis Buttimer I want to get his email address and phone number and talk to him like he did me on my intake and let him know I am grown now and want to see him talk to me again face to face like he did when I was a kid... I will put my size 12 right up against his freaking ass... See how he likes that... Biker mentality on a guy who is 6'1 and weighs 230 lbs... So I will let him deal with the moster he created.
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Danny is only here,because in the real world,noone else will talk to him.
This is where and how Danny gets his attention.
If not for fornits,and getting his ass handed to him every day
He would be MORE lost,than he already appears to be
What a sad,poor excuse for a person you are Bennison
You make some of the Elan Morons look good next to you
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Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
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::evil::
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Danny is only here,because in the real world,noone else will talk to him.
This is where and how Danny gets his attention.
If not for fornits,and getting his ass handed to him every day
He would be MORE lost,than he already appears to be
What a sad,poor excuse for a person you are Bennison
You make some of the Elan Morons look good next to you
Arty... Thanks for coming forward and saying this... He seems to think that it is primarily the Straight Inc. people here who view him as having a gross display of idiocy... Thanks for showing Elan and AA feels this way....
Idiocy Defined
1. utterly senseless or foolish behavior; a stupid or foolish act, statement, etc.
2. Psychology . the state of being an idiot
Number 1 would be the one I would pick.... :seg:
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Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
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Danny is only here,because in the real world,noone else will talk to him.
This is where and how Danny gets his attention.
If not for fornits,and getting his ass handed to him every day
He would be MORE lost,than he already appears to be
What a sad,poor excuse for a person you are Bennison
You make some of the Elan Morons look good next to you
Arty... Thanks for coming forward and saying this... He seems to think that it is primarily the Straight Inc. people here who view him as having a gross display of idiocy... Thanks for showing Elan and AA feels this way....
Idiocy Defined
1. utterly senseless or foolish behavior; a stupid or foolish act, statement, etc.
2. Psychology . the state of being an idiot
Number 1 would be the one I would pick.... :seg:
" Art " is right Danny peddles his show from thread to thread and site to site just stirring the pot. How can anyone know so much about everything.??? And not be open minded about anything.??? Danny needs to relies God gave us two ear's and one mouth. You do the thinking from there Danny. :cheers: :cheers: :rocker: :rocker: Elan was built on Danny's but I still can't remember him there. Hey Danny listen to the " lyric's " sound like your life ?? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtMy5IBm ... re=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtMy5IBmX7E&feature=related) :peace: :peace: :peace: :beat:
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Because it seems some folks from Straight have a hard time with honesty.
You think they're liars because it threatens what you've deemed as your savior. Anytime anyone says anything negative about AA, you freak the fuck out. You have no idea about what has happened to people in Straight, have no idea how or why they ended up in Straight in the first place (usually you state that there MUST have been some good reason our parents put us there, without having any knowledge whatsoever about it) You don't really know if they actually attended AA meetings, have no idea how many meetings they've been to so you justify your viewpoint as that they're all just lying. Same thing as the program survivors who say bad things about the TTI.....they're just "disgruntled druggies".
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Because it seems some folks from Straight have a hard time with honesty.
You think they're liars because it threatens what you've deemed as your savior. Anytime anyone says anything negative about AA, you freak the fuck out. You have no idea about what has happened to people in Straight, have no idea how or why they ended up in Straight in the first place (usually you state that there MUST have been some good reason our parents put us there, without having any knowledge whatsoever about it) You don't really know if they actually attended AA meetings, have no idea how many meetings they've been to so you justify your viewpoint as that they're all just lying. Same thing as the program survivors who say bad things about the TTI.....they're just "disgruntled druggies".
Right the hell on Anne !!!! :seg:
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Because it seems some folks from Straight have a hard time with honesty.
You think they're liars because it threatens what you've deemed as your savior. Anytime anyone says anything negative about AA, you freak the fuck out. You have no idea about what has happened to people in Straight, have no idea how or why they ended up in Straight in the first place (usually you state that there MUST have been some good reason our parents put us there, without having any knowledge whatsoever about it) You don't really know if they actually attended AA meetings, have no idea how many meetings they've been to so you justify your viewpoint as that they're all just lying. Same thing as the program survivors who say bad things about the TTI.....they're just "disgruntled druggies".
Yeah here let me state my "qualifications" to cricize AA. I did 18 months at straight inc whose 7 steps are just a condensed version of the AA 12 so I am well familiar with stepcraft. Before I left Straight I attended about 2 dozen AA/NA meetings while on 4th and 5th phase. I attended AA about 3-4 times a week for 6 months after i left. So there it is Danny, I have attended somewhere between 100 and 120 AA meetings in my life. Does that qualify me to have an opinion on the subject or am i just lying?
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Because it seems some folks from Straight have a hard time with honesty.
You think they're liars because it threatens what you've deemed as your savior. Anytime anyone says anything negative about AA, you freak the fuck out. You have no idea about what has happened to people in Straight, have no idea how or why they ended up in Straight in the first place (usually you state that there MUST have been some good reason our parents put us there, without having any knowledge whatsoever about it) You don't really know if they actually attended AA meetings, have no idea how many meetings they've been to so you justify your viewpoint as that they're all just lying. Same thing as the program survivors who say bad things about the TTI.....they're just "disgruntled druggies".
Yeah here let me state my "qualifications" to cricize AA. I did 18 months at straight inc whose 7 steps are just a condensed version of the AA 12 so I am well familiar with stepcraft. Before I left Straight I attended about 2 dozen AA/NA meetings while on 4th and 5th phase. I attended AA about 3-4 times a week for 6 months after i left. So there it is Danny, I have attended somewhere between 100 and 120 AA meetings in my life. Does that qualify me to have an opinion on the subject or am i just lying?
Liar, totally, you oppose the cult, hence you are a liar.
and it was 99 meetings, we counted!
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Yo Che yeah you busted me out on that one. 99 meetings it really was, so of course I am now disqualified from any future AA discussion. My pathological lying has been exposed to the group. Whats that sound? Blue chairs beginning to rumble slowly. Uh oh, what else am I hiding from the group?
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Yo Che yeah you busted me out on that one. 99 meetings it really was, so of course I am now disqualified from any future AA discussion. My pathological lying has been exposed to the group. Whats that sound? Blue chairs beginning to rumble slowly. Uh oh, what else am I hiding from the group?
WHO'S GOT SOMETHING TO SAY TO THIS GUY!!!!!!!
Flap Flap Flap Flap
Mark.... "Well Shaggy I think you need to get honest with the group and something that strikes me odd is you are still using your druggie name"
GROUP : Love ya Mark
Who's next ????
::OMG::
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Flap, flap, flap
Chris go ahead and tell this guy how you feel about his complete disrespect for the group!
Chris: Shaggy you are so full of shit, you continue to use your druggy name and I saw you at school with a Pantera t-shirt on!
Group: Love you Chris!
Does anyone else have anyhthing they want to say to this lowlife?
Flap, flap, flap.......
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Because it seems some folks from Straight have a hard time with honesty.
You think they're liars because it threatens what you've deemed as your savior. Anytime anyone says anything negative about AA, you freak the fuck out. You have no idea about what has happened to people in Straight, have no idea how or why they ended up in Straight in the first place (usually you state that there MUST have been some good reason our parents put us there, without having any knowledge whatsoever about it) You don't really know if they actually attended AA meetings, have no idea how many meetings they've been to so you justify your viewpoint as that they're all just lying. Same thing as the program survivors who say bad things about the TTI.....they're just "disgruntled druggies".
Yeah here let me state my "qualifications" to cricize AA. I did 18 months at straight inc whose 7 steps are just a condensed version of the AA 12 so I am well familiar with stepcraft. Before I left Straight I attended about 2 dozen AA/NA meetings while on 4th and 5th phase. I attended AA about 3-4 times a week for 6 months after i left. So there it is Danny, I have attended somewhere between 100 and 120 AA meetings in my life. Does that qualify me to have an opinion on the subject or am i just lying?
Here is your problem Shaggu, you already stated why you went to meetings, to impress the staff, after you got out I'm sure you were lonely so you went to a place where you knew folks, AA/NA. Am I close so far, then after a little while you realized that you wanted to drink and smoke a bone, well no reason to go to a self help meeting that is trying to help folks get off alcohol and drugs, so off you go. Bye Bye, AA.
No Shaggy, 120 meetings qualifies you to be quiet and listen.
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Because it seems some folks from Straight have a hard time with honesty.
You think they're liars because it threatens what you've deemed as your savior. Anytime anyone says anything negative about AA, you freak the fuck out. You have no idea about what has happened to people in Straight, have no idea how or why they ended up in Straight in the first place (usually you state that there MUST have been some good reason our parents put us there, without having any knowledge whatsoever about it) You don't really know if they actually attended AA meetings, have no idea how many meetings they've been to so you justify your viewpoint as that they're all just lying. Same thing as the program survivors who say bad things about the TTI.....they're just "disgruntled druggies".
Anne, I know you are a liar because you are, that story you made up on Monday sealed your fate. Maybe I should clarify lying, in most respects you are not lying about your experiences with your polluted form of AA, that you practiced in Straight. You are just confused, you seem to think this was AA, well I am sorry to tell ya, it was not.
AA is out there in society, Anne.
I will not call you folks liars anymore, sorry. I now know you are just confused.
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[Edited]
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Treatment centers and Anonymous programs call it a disease... Insurance companies pay benefits so people can learn the dogmatic 12 steps. Please discuss. :seg:
It's pretty well known, that for some reason alcoholism and drug addiction seem to follow family lines. I think this lends credit to the disease theory, and really if you develop an addiction issue isn't it kind of likely you might have an issue later on. Like people who have bad gambling addictions, can read a book and be cured, and then go gamble only on the weekends and all will be fine? That's just not how it works in real life,and denying that addiction, in any of its self destructive forms, is not real is to deny reality. Maybe you haven't been around people who destroy their lives and watch everything they ever worked for crumble around them because of an addiction to drugs, or even gambling, or whatever. I think when you know something is bad for you, and you continue to do it anyways despite that knowledge it's probably an addiction. Tobacco is a common addiction that costs many lives, is that more like a common cold, something you can get over quickly and then smoke occasionally? Or is it more like a disease, where you want to avoid tobacco smoke altogether forever? I've seen too much evidence of addiction to dismiss it and claim that people are choosing to destroy themselves, so I am going to have to respectfully disagree with this. On a side not, if AA was as ineffective as people here claim, then why would insurance pay for rehab involving it? Surely they don't want the insured returning to rehab again, and again? That would cost them lots of money and they work hard to prevent that. Perhaps they know something we don't?
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It's interesting you bring up tobacco. Millions of americans choose to quit that every day. They don't need meetings or dogma to do it. They don't call the action a disease either. Smoking can cause disease, sure, but it's a behavior and not a disease in itself. People can quit behavior or bad habits. They can't quit diseases.
Maybe you've seen too much evidence of people doing self destructive things over and over simply because they like it. To them, short term benefits outweigh the long term consequences. It's a choice... Often exacerbated by depression, mental disorder, or low self worth, but it's still a choice. Some people like to blame their choices on things like "diseases" to make themselves feel better or absolve themselves of responsibility and guilt but it doesn't change the objective reality of the situation.
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Anne, I know you are a liar because you are, that story you made up on Monday sealed your fate. Maybe I should clarify lying, in most respects you are not lying about your experiences with your polluted form of AA, that you practiced in Straight. You are just confused, you seem to think this was AA, well I am sorry to tell ya, it was not.
AA is out there in society, Anne.
I will not call you folks liars anymore, sorry. I now know you are just confused.
I'm not confused DannyBoi and I'm not lying about the person who was told to stop their meds. I know it makes you feel better to believe that because it's contrary to what you've been led to believe, but it's true and it happens all the time.
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I'm not confused DannyBoi and I'm not lying about the person who was told to stop their meds. I know it makes you feel better to believe that because it's contrary to what you've been led to believe, but it's true and it happens all the time.
If you need first hand proof.. Call your sponsor and tell him your therapist put you on Prozak and Xanax... :seg:
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Still playing "feed the troll Danny" game
Every time you respond to this nutcase
He gets a stiffy
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Still playing "feed the troll Danny" game
Every time you respond to this nutcase
He gets a stiffy
Oh Art.....go call your sponsor and cry about it.
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Oh Anne
that was rich
Another day wasting time till your hubby gets home ? I bet he would be very impressed with all your nasty words of wisdom you seem to have for everyone,in any situation
The only thing I will agree with Danny on,is you are perhaps the sickest individual on this board period
I wont darken your little spat with anyone who will banter with you again
You are far too sick...and I think you like it that way
Cuz its all I have ever seen you post
..................Nasty little brat
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Oh Anne
that was rich
Another day wasting time till your hubby gets home ?
Well, actually I'm at work while he's getting the boat ready for the weekend trip.
Nasty little brat
Don't be so hard on yourself Art. Your nastiness comes from your time at Elan. Another thing you should probably discuss with your sponsor.
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Calling it a disease and blaming actions on the disease is like saying " The Devil Made Me Do It " It only serves to ease the guilty conscious of the "Cult Like" group member.... Sounds too much like justification to me... People are responsible for their own actions. One of the widest used phrases for justification is "I am not responsible for my what I did while I was in my disease, but I am accountable" This goes along with their "I am not responsible for my disease only my recovery... Hell they just need to man up and quit blaming their problems on a non-existant disease.
peace
:peace: