Fornits
General Interest => Open Free for All => Topic started by: Botched Programming on August 30, 2010, 11:24:20 AM
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(1) If you ever go to any Anonymous meeting you will sit at the beginning of the meetings you will hear their Traditions.
(2a) One tradition states every group will be self supporting through their own contributions declining outside contributions
(2b) the group may never endorse, finance, or lend their name to outside enterprise, lest money, property, prestige divert them from their primary purpose.
(2c) Another states they should remain non-professional but their service centers may employ special workers
(1) Lest take a look at what tradition means
Tradition defined : 4A time-honored practice or set of such practices. Dogma defined: A principle or belief or a group of them:
Meetings appear to be dogmatic to me... What do you think ??
(2) The programs are self supporting through their own contributions... the money you put in the basket and the books you buy pays the rent and the money is sent to their area then up to their world service orginzations. Think about how many meetings there are and how much money their organizations take in.
They sure do put out alot of PR to treament centers through their "Hospitals and Institution Commitees" "Sure sounds like recruitment to me'"
Employment of special workers... CEO's Vice president of the company making a healthy dollar in his or her pocket
Again the definition for Cult:
Cult defined
a system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator[/color]
Now any educated person would call them cults,,, If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, must be a duck
Much peace and healing
:peace: :peace:
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Reply to Anne. yes, sort of. The difference between a 'cult' and a 'religion' , simply put, is political power. Quoting lenin ( no, not John, it's vladimir, silly) political power begins at the barrel of a gun. ( I think he meant muzzle, but he said barrel)
This is why cults so often become violent, and quickly. I think that sociopathy is far more prevalent than I'd like to believe, and that programs and cults and rajahs and pashas and caliphs (oh my!) proliferate because they offer a target=rich environment for the sociopath.
I believe that some cultures promote sociopathy. ( Not so far-fetched as it seems, remember that the brain is the only known organ which can be physically changed by an intangible, a 'meme')
I believe that AA is not a cult any longer, it has been court=held to be a state-sponsored religion.State sponsorship scares me.If you really, truly, wanta get spooked , look into involvement by the "unification Church' and scientology into congress and the defense contract realm.
Think you this, AA dominates the 'treatment industry', they've been around for a long, long time. How Much Influence Do They have?
By The Way, When I get scared, I get defensive, How defensive? well. see previous post, or just come my property un-invited. I would hope that you'd get defensive as well.
in all, best wishes,
Stupidly Yours, J.O.M.
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Reply to Anne. yes, sort of. The difference between a 'cult' and a 'religion' , simply put, is political power. Quoting lenin ( no, not John, it's vladimir, silly) political power begins at the barrel of a gun. ( I think he meant muzzle, but he said barrel)
This is why cults so often become violent, and quickly. I think that sociopathy is far more prevalent than I'd like to believe, and that programs and cults and rajahs and pashas and caliphs (oh my!) proliferate because they offer a target=rich environment for the sociopath.
I believe that some cultures promote sociopathy. ( Not so far-fetched as it seems, remember that the brain is the only known organ which can be physically changed by an intangible, a 'meme')
:nods: :nods:
I believe that AA is not a cult any longer, it has been court=held to be a state-sponsored religion.State sponsorship scares me.If you really, truly, wanta get spooked , look into involvement by the "unification Church' and scientology into congress and the defense contract realm.
Yup...I'm in the heart of Scientologyland. They are scary indeed!
Think you this, AA dominates the 'treatment industry', they've been around for a long, long time. How Much Influence Do They have?
Waaaayyy too much. Especially in the medical community, IMO.
By The Way, When I get scared, I get defensive, How defensive? well. see previous post, or just come my property un-invited. I would hope that you'd get defensive as well.
in all, best wishes,
Stupidly Yours, J.O.M.
I would....I absolutely would! :cheers:
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Another point to ponder'
Take a look at their 5th step...
Step 5
We admitted to God, to ourselves, and another human being the exact nature of our wrongs
Ok here in this step you are being pushed into submission with an admission of guilt. Also with admitting this stuff to another human being, it brings it closer to the beliefs of Catholosism... Where you confess your sins and then you receive your penance or punishment...
Does this not make you think of as being forced to breakdown and step away from from independence on self?? Also does this not have the tone of religion??? Sounds like a cult classic to me.
Much peace and healing
:peace:
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Another point to ponder'
Take a look at their 5th step...
Step 5
We admitted to God, to ourselves, and another human being the exact nature of our wrongs
Ok here in this step you are being pushed into submission with an admission of guilt. Also with admitting this stuff to another human being, it brings it closer to the beliefs of Catholosism... Where you confess your sins and then you receive your penance or punishment...
Does this not make you think of as being forced to breakdown and step away from from independence on self?? Also does this not have the tone of religion??? Sounds like a cult classic to me.
Much peace and healing
:peace:
YOU REALLY THINK BP, THAT YOU HAVE INDEPENDENCE....REALLY. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: THERE IS NOT ONE LIVING THING IN THIS UNIVERSE THAT IS INDEPENDENT OF SOMETHING ELSE. WE ARE ALL DEPENDENT. WE DO NOT SET THE CONTROLS OR OPERATE THEM. WE CO-EXIST UNTIL SOMEONE OR SOMETHING SAYS GOODBYE. THEN WE GET TO START IT ALL OVER AGAIN, SOMEWHERE ELSE.
MAKE NO MISTAKE I AM NOT SAYING DON'T FIGHT, ALL I'M SAYING IS KNOW WHAT YOUR FIGHT IS. YOU ONLY HAVE ONE FIGHT HERE.
TRUST ME, IT IS NOT STEP V IN THE AA BOOK.
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YOU REALLY THINK BP, THAT YOU HAVE INDEPENDENCE....REALLY. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: THERE IS NOT ONE LIVING THING IN THIS UNIVERSE THAT IS INDEPENDENT OF SOMETHING ELSE. WE ARE ALL DEPENDENT. WE DO NOT SET THE CONTROLS OR OPERATE THEM. WE CO-EXIST UNTIL SOMEONE OR SOMETHING SAYS GOODBYE. THEN WE GET TO START IT ALL OVER AGAIN, SOMEWHERE ELSE.
MAKE NO MISTAKE I AM NOT SAYING DON'T FIGHT, ALL I'M SAYING IS KNOW WHAT YOUR FIGHT IS. YOU ONLY HAVE ONE FIGHT HERE.TRUST ME, IT IS NOT STEP V IN THE AA BOOK.
I have nothing to fight or defend... I am merely putiing out the info the best I can as I maybe able to save a newcomer from getting sucked into a dogmatic cult of one of the Anonymous groups...
Again the people have freedom of choice on what they want to believe... "It's their choice whether to take the red pill or the blue pill..." (Matrix Joke)
Peace and much healing
:peace:
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YOU REALLY THINK BP, THAT YOU HAVE INDEPENDENCE....REALLY. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: THERE IS NOT ONE LIVING THING IN THIS UNIVERSE THAT IS INDEPENDENT OF SOMETHING ELSE. WE ARE ALL DEPENDENT. WE DO NOT SET THE CONTROLS OR OPERATE THEM. WE CO-EXIST UNTIL SOMEONE OR SOMETHING SAYS GOODBYE. THEN WE GET TO START IT ALL OVER AGAIN, SOMEWHERE ELSE.
MAKE NO MISTAKE I AM NOT SAYING DON'T FIGHT, ALL I'M SAYING IS KNOW WHAT YOUR FIGHT IS. YOU ONLY HAVE ONE FIGHT HERE.TRUST ME, IT IS NOT STEP V IN THE AA BOOK.
I have nothing to fight or defend... I am merely putiing out the info the best I can as I maybe able to save a newcomer from getting sucked into a dogmatic cult of one of the Anonymous groups...
Again the people have freedom of choice on what they want to believe... "It's their choice whether to take the red pill or the blue pill..." (Matrix Joke)
Peace and much healing
:peace:
Wow....all caps. He must REALLY MEAN IT!!!!!! ::)
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YOU REALLY THINK BP, THAT YOU HAVE INDEPENDENCE....REALLY. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: THERE IS NOT ONE LIVING THING IN THIS UNIVERSE THAT IS INDEPENDENT OF SOMETHING ELSE. WE ARE ALL DEPENDENT. WE DO NOT SET THE CONTROLS OR OPERATE THEM. WE CO-EXIST UNTIL SOMEONE OR SOMETHING SAYS GOODBYE. THEN WE GET TO START IT ALL OVER AGAIN, SOMEWHERE ELSE.
MAKE NO MISTAKE I AM NOT SAYING DON'T FIGHT, ALL I'M SAYING IS KNOW WHAT YOUR FIGHT IS. YOU ONLY HAVE ONE FIGHT HERE.TRUST ME, IT IS NOT STEP V IN THE AA BOOK.
I have nothing to fight or defend... I am merely putiing out the info the best I can as I maybe able to save a newcomer from getting sucked into a dogmatic cult of one of the Anonymous groups...
Again the people have freedom of choice on what they want to believe... "It's their choice whether to take the red pill or the blue pill..." (Matrix Joke)
Peace and much healing
:peace:
Well if you believe this freedom of thought, I don't see in your actions or thoughts. You have made up your mind about AA and all programs. I may be wrong but I think this is what I have read.
Plus your quoting other sources for your arguments. AA is as you said is very personal, what are your thoughts. Not OJ's but yours.
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Well if you believe this freedom of thought, I don't see in your actions or thoughts. You have made up your mind about AA and all programs.
As have you.
Plus your quoting other sources for your arguments.
Yeah.....that's called citing sources for your argument. Debate 101.
Not OJ's but yours.
Yeah well, I wouldn't take OJ's word for much.
(http://http://www.psychologytoday.com/files/u114/oj-simpson.jpg)
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Well if you believe this freedom of thought, I don't see in your actions or thoughts. You have made up your mind about AA and all programs.
As have you.
Plus your quoting other sources for your arguments.
Yeah.....that's called citing sources for your argument. Debate 101.
Not OJ's but yours.
Yeah well, I wouldn't take OJ's word for much.
(http://http://www.psychologytoday.com/files/u114/oj-simpson.jpg)
Anne, the OJ papers is not in all fairness citing a source. This is just one guys opinion. As we determine a source here, OJ would not measure up. (Orange Papers)
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Plus your quoting other sources for your arguments. AA is as you said is very personal, what are your thoughts. Not OJ's but yours.
I never said that AA is personal... My words were "My AA experiences were personal and I don't care to devulge that info over the internet plus I also said I don't know you and my experiences are none of your business"
I am not talking about my experiences... I am stating information from sources in order for people to come up with their own educated hypothesis on it. Enough with the bickering lets get back to the topic
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(http://http://citrus.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/ephemera01.gif)
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Anne, the OJ papers is not in all fairness citing a source. This is just one guys opinion.
And so is yours. Just an opinion. But at least AO backs his up with something other than only his opinion.
As we determine a source here, OJ would not measure up. (Orange Papers)
You're absolutely right. He's a psycho, murdering fuck if I've ever seen one.
(http://http://www.psychologytoday.com/files/u114/oj-simpson.jpg)
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Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
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Are AA meetings like a disclosure circle?
:jawdrop:
Pretty much...and if not in the "group", then certainly with the sponsor. It's called "doing a 5th Step".
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Plus your quoting other sources for your arguments. AA is as you said is very personal, what are your thoughts. Not OJ's but yours.
I never said that AA is personal... My words were "My AA experiences were personal and I don't care to devulge that info over the internet plus I also said I don't know you and my experiences are none of your business"
I am not talking about my experiences... I am stating information from sources in order for people to come up with their own educated hypothesis on it. Enough with the bickering lets get back to the topic
Fair enough.....Was not trying to derail your thread.
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Anne, the OJ papers is not in all fairness citing a source. This is just one guys opinion.
And so is yours. Just an opinion. But at least AO backs his up with something other than only his opinion.
No he does not, just more opinions from other AA members and professionals with opinions.
As we determine a source here, OJ would not measure up. (Orange Papers)
So as I said your OJ papers have no credibility here, thank you.
You're absolutely right. He's a psycho, murdering fuck if I've ever seen one.
(http://http://www.psychologytoday.com/files/u114/oj-simpson.jpg)
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Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
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Are AA meetings like a disclosure circle?
:jawdrop:
Pretty much...and if not in the "group", then certainly with the sponsor. It's called "doing a 5th Step".
Anne, why are answering this question??????
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Are AA meetings like a disclosure circle?
:jawdrop:
Pretty much...and if not in the "group", then certainly with the sponsor. It's called "doing a 5th Step".
Anne, why are answering this question??????
(1) Yes it is... in the program they call it a 5th step... In catholisism it;s called confession and ... Hence AA has become a religion a domatic one but none the less a religion and with it being a dogmatic religion it would fall unther the definition of cult.
(2) Anne is answering because she has her own opinions just like you...
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Are AA meetings like a disclosure circle?
:jawdrop:
Pretty much...and if not in the "group", then certainly with the sponsor. It's called "doing a 5th Step".
Anne, why are answering this question??????
(1) Yes it is... in the program they call it a 5th step... In catholisism it;s called confession and ... Hence AA has become a religion a dogmatic one but none the less a religion and with it being a dogmatic religion it would fall under the definition of cult.
(2) Anne is answering because she has her own opinions just like you...
No BP I wish that was the truth, that you and Anne were writing theories(definition of opinion)but you are not, really. You are spouting anger from years gone by. Most of your definitions concerning the ongoings of AA are not accurate at all. Sounds like you spent a lot of time fooling around and socializing (which is fine) instead of paying attention.
AA, (the book and a building in NYC) are not a religion nor are they a cult. The cult accusation, your friend Woof a Doof already explained this, I guess you were not here.
As far as a religion, no, I would not go that far but I will say there principles are based on a Judea Christian Theocracy, no doubt about this.
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I'm answering because he asked a question. I gave him my answer based on my experience with AA, just as you are. As is typical of the ardent Stepcrafter, you get all defensive if someone has an opinion contrary to that of what you'be been sold.
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As far as a religion, no, I would not go that far but I will say there principles are based on a Judea Christian Theocracy, no doubt about this.
The only thing that saves them from being a registered cult is they have not ever applied for a church license..... And having Judea Christian principals this drags into another real where it theoreticaly should be classified a church... Hence to me rating right there with the church of scientology... One word... "CULT"
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The courts have also ruled that it is a religion.
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I'm answering because he asked a question. I gave him my answer based on my experience with AA, just as you are. As is typical of the ardent Stepcrafter, you get all defensive if someone has an opinion contrary to that of what you'be been sold.
OK, I'll tone my rhetoric down a bit. My problem with your writing Anne has always been the same. I personally do not see your personal experiences. I see others, meaning people you have talked with and sources you have read.
How can so many folks that went to Straight that I know have such a contrasting opinion. Most all I said they were angry at AA because of there experience with Straight but that AA is OK. Maybe not for them but it did help folks. AA is not necessarily for me anymore, I have moved on but it did help me a great deal. I will be forever eternally grateful for this.
It seems BP and yourself must be different. Which is possible but I have a hard time seeing this with your behavior here concerning AA, every time it is brought up, you become defensive and then call me defensive. I still think you hold a resentment towards anything to do with, AA.
I really do not want to argue with you about this anymore or whatever else you want to call it. I will not change your mind about AA, you will always be able to find one person who has disgraced AA and flaunt (him/her) here. AA is primarily made up from damaged folks who came looking for help. There are all kinds of folks interpreting AA anyway they like, AA does not tightly govern their groups never have never will.
I have found that there are many more wonderful loving people who want to help you, there. They are not taking advantage of you, misinterpreting the principles and trying to cram there thoughts down your throat. Many of these people were in programs, they hated them, we are not looking to duplicate the same experience.
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The courts have also ruled that it is a religion.
How did this come about??? A sincere question.
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Those 12 steps might as well be kryptonite. Just drag a brother (or sister) down. It renders you powerless over drugs which relieves the personal responsibility for the decisions you make. I had those 7 steps drilled into me nonstop at Straight. Took me awhile to realize that about the only thing I am completely powerless over is whether or not the sun will rise tomorrow.
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How can so many folks that went to Straight that I know have such a contrasting opinion. Most all I said they were angry at AA because of there experience with Straight but that AA is OK. Maybe not for them but it did help folks.
I don't know who all you knew that was in Straight, but I do not see them coming in here being by your side on every theory you have... Nor do I but for the most part the People who were in Straight know I am speaking the truth and doing the right thing by exposing the truth... Take Anne.. You were perplexed that someone else felt the same and thought the same as me on this topic... Anne and I are not the only ones who view this my way.. we may not agree all the time but for the most part we respect each other.
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Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
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How can so many folks that went to Straight that I know have such a contrasting opinion. Most all I said they were angry at AA because of there experience with Straight but that AA is OK. Maybe not for them but it did help folks.
I don't know who all you knew that was in Straight, but I do not see them coming in here being by your side on every theory you have... Nor do I but for the most part the People who were in Straight know I am speaking the truth and doing the right thing by exposing the truth... Take Anne.. You were perplexed that someone else felt the same and thought the same as me on this topic... Anne and I are not the only ones who view this my way.. we may not agree all the time but for the most part we respect each other.
SAFE = Straight Inc. (part 1)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5PXmvkn ... re=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5PXmvknypI&feature=related)
SAFE = Straight Inc. (part 2)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWQ5AdRb ... re=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWQ5AdRb420&feature=related)
Killer find Joel... going to have to save those links...
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I think I might have a line on some killer graphics, will get them sorted out by midweek. Kind of busy enjoying what is left of my weekend.
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How can so many folks that went to Straight that I know have such a contrasting opinion. Most all I said they were angry at AA because of there experience with Straight but that AA is OK. Maybe not for them but it did help folks.
I don't know who all you knew that was in Straight, but I do not see them coming in here being by your side on every theory you have... Nor do I but for the most part the People who were in Straight know I am speaking the truth and doing the right thing by exposing the truth... Take Anne.. You were perplexed that someone else felt the same and thought the same as me on this topic... Anne and I are not the only ones who view this my way.. we may not agree all the time but for the most part we respect each other.
BP, truce I got pissed off at a post, that really I should have just let go. Sorry, you have a great thread going on here. I do not agree but "hey", that is what it is all about.
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BP, truce I got pissed off at a post, that really I should have just let go. Sorry, you have a great thread going on here. I do not agree but "hey", that is what it is all about.
So be the truce.... I am glad that we are able to lay down our arms of name calling and be back on the civil side of discussion. I have always been told the truth will set you free but it will piss you off first.... ("Just a little program humor")
Much peace and healing to you bro...
:peace:
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BP, truce I got pissed off at a post, that really I should have just let go. Sorry, you have a great thread going on here. I do not agree but "hey", that is what it is all about.
So be the truce.... I am glad that we are able to lay down our arms of name calling and be back on the civil side of discussion. I have always been told the truth will set you free but it will piss you off first.... ("Just a little program humor")
Much peace and healing to you bro...
:peace:
Absolutely!!!!!!!!!
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Botched,
Have you ever considered going right into an AA meeting and leaving a pile of your fliers right next to their piles of propaganda?
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Botched,
Have you ever considered going right into an AA meeting and leaving a pile of your fliers right next to their piles of propaganda?
I have gotten up from a meeting like I was going to get coffee and left a few beside their propaganda outside of the meeting room.. remember I pay for the paper and ink... Don't want to just have them thrown straight away by a so called trusted servant of the group... Like it better when they get them off their windshields... more of a chance of reaching them.
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The courts have also ruled that it is a religion.
I hope to not spawn any anger or otherwise but I have never read the Quote above in any newspaper,literature or even heard about a court calling AA a religion. Please post a link as I cant believe this from my own experiences.
Let me preface this with my observation and opinion
I am guessing that I have been to approximately 7500 meetings in my 15 yr affiliation with AA. I have been to some meetings where AFTER the meeting I was asked to join others in a Church/Religious setting. I have been to a number of meetings which I didnt care for,as they were geared towards things that didnt see as AA. I have had both good and bad experiences with both meetings and several people's ideology as to what AA actually is and is not.
But I gotta say.. I have never experienced what some of you talk about. I am not calling you liars.. I have just never experieced these things.
Truth be told,I havent been to a meeting in over a year,and maybe I missed something.
I can say,from my heart of hearts.. Had it not been for AA and the loving people Ive met along the way. I would probably not be here today.I havent had a drink in 16 yrs and havent used hard drugs in 10. (ya I didnt get it right away)
But I did get it. I remain grateful for it. I have lived all over the country and have many friends who I talk to regularly and I have never felt pressured to join a Church or other means of religion.
I find this all very interesting.
I think I finally made up my mind to "do the deal" just over 10 yrs ago. My life has gotten much better sober,and I am pretty sure I could not have accomplished the things I have if I had not gotten sober. I am not a cheerleader for AA. I just know "something" happed to me,and my life is so much better,as a result.
My 2 cents
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Botched,
Have you ever considered going right into an AA meeting and leaving a pile of your fliers right next to their piles of propaganda?
I have gotten up from a meeting like I was going to get coffee and left a few beside their propaganda outside of the meeting room.. remember I pay for the paper and ink... Don't want to just have them thrown straight away by a so called trusted servant of the group... Like it better when they get them off their windshields... more of a chance of reaching them.
I dont understand why though, Botched. What do the fliers say?
...
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True that Botched, you'd probably be better off pouring a pint of vodka into the coffee urn.
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Botched,
Have you ever considered going right into an AA meeting and leaving a pile of your fliers right next to their piles of propaganda?
I have gotten up from a meeting like I was going to get coffee and left a few beside their propaganda outside of the meeting room.. remember I pay for the paper and ink... Don't want to just have them thrown straight away by a so called trusted servant of the group... Like it better when they get them off their windshields... more of a chance of reaching them.
Have you ever just shared with the group of people at the AA meeting, why you feel the way you do? I'm sure a lot of people would be open to hear about the distorted version of AA in the program, and why you feel that it doesn't help you. Believe it or not, in a lot of the meetings I've gone to, the people there aren't hard core fundamentalists. Just a group of regular people trying to help each other out, and have an open conversation about addiction and recovery. I bet this would be even more effective than passing out flyers on windshields. But it goes both ways, you might learn that AA is not as bad as you think? I put a question mark, because I'm not saying that would happen, but it is a possibility. I don't think that the people would form a lynch mob and tar and feather you, people in meetings to me seemed pretty open to anything. I've heard lots of people talk about how they were reluctant to get involved with AA, etc. I don't think AA is something to be afraid of, even if you are questioning their ideology, they seem pretty open to it. An anonymous flyer seems kind of suspicious, if I came out and found it, it would perplex me as to why someone would do this. But if a person came in the meeting, and talked about why they feel AA hurt them face to face, it would be more convincing I think. Just some my opinions, not trying to be rude or anything.
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Better to get them one on one. A group pack mentality makes it far too difficult for one of the koolaid guzzlers to think of being the nail that sticks out the most by having a little bit of independence of thought.
Go for one on one Botched.
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Have you ever just shared with the group of people at the AA meeting, why you feel the way you do? I'm sure a lot of people would be open to hear about the distorted version of AA in the program, and why you feel that it doesn't help you. Believe it or not, in a lot of the meetings I've gone to, the people there aren't hard core fundamentalists. Just a group of regular people trying to help each other out, and have an open conversation about addiction and recovery. I bet this would be even more effective than passing out flyers on windshields. But it goes both ways, you might learn that AA is not as bad as you think? I put a question mark, because I'm not saying that would happen, but it is a possibility. I don't think that the people would form a lynch mob and tar and feather you, people in meetings to me seemed pretty open to anything. I've heard lots of people talk about how they were reluctant to get involved with AA, etc. I don't think AA is something to be afraid of, even if you are questioning their ideology, they seem pretty open to it. An anonymous flyer seems kind of suspicious, if I came out and found it, it would perplex me as to why someone would do this. But if a person came in the meeting, and talked about why they feel AA hurt them face to face, it would be more convincing I think. Just some my opinions, not trying to be rude or anything.
(1) Having this discussion at a meeting would be equal to if not worse than slapping down a hornets nest with my bare hands.
(2) By putting flyers on the windshield I am able to keep my anonimity... "Remember anonimity is the spiritual foundation of all our Traditions ever reminding us to place principals before personalities."
(3) Been around the rooms for too many years.. Was refreshed when I found the orange papers... Remember the H.O.W of the program, well it works the other way too I was honest enought to myself with my beliefs, I was openminded to the concept which contradicted with the validity of the cult speak I had heard in the rooms, and I have been willing to carry this message to all I can hel like that 12th step told me to do... lol
(4) maybe perplexed was the wrong word to use... more like intrigued... possibly enought to read the literature and question the validity of the points I put out.
(5) I beg to differ with you again about going in a meeting and taking about this... Program Nazis will cut you off.
PS...Did not take any of your post rude.
Peace and much healing
:peace:
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Something new to ponder... straight from the NA's Basic Text
We do recover page 84
When, at the end of the road, we find that we can no longer function as human beings, either
with or without drugs, we all face the same dilemma. What is there left to do? There seems to be
this alternative: either go on as best we can to the bitter ends—jails, institutions, or death—or find
a new way to live. In years gone by, very few addicts ever had this last choice. Those who are
addicted today are more fortunate. For the first time in history, a simple way has been proving
itself in the lives of many addicts. It is available to us all. This is a simple spiritual, not religious,
program known as Narcotics Anonymous.
Lets break this paragraph down...
(1) NA propaganda states that we come to them broken and not functioning as a human being... (Our lives may be in disarray but I don't know too many of us who are animals)
(2) Then they question "What is there left to do".... A person changes things in their own time on their own terms.
(3) The propaganda then goes own to state that if we do not live their way of life we will end up in jails, institution, or death.... Sounds like the person now owes their life to a program... Do not question just do as they say and everything is going to be good.... WRONG!!!
(4)For the first time in history.... Sounds like an announcer on a infomercial.... Use that sales pitch buddy..
(5) A simple spiritual not religious program.... The reason they chose to be spiritual and not religious is so they don't have to claim church status as that would require ordained ministers...Hence helping declassify them as a cult.
If a person is new and they sit for 90 days listening to this type of cult speak they will begin to do it themselves
Try this experiment.. Dress yourself with opposite of you dominant side for 90 days and see if you don't automatically start doing it all the time with that side.. This is how stepcraft works...
Your thoughts...
Peace and much healing.
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A simple spiritual not religious program.... The reason they chose to be spiritual and not religious is so they don't have to claim church status as that would require ordained ministers...Hence helping declassify them as a cult.
I didn’t read anywhere that they chose the term spiritual because of this reason. Many see spiritual and Religious as very different. Spiritual is typically seen by many to be very personal and somewhat inner private path, whereas Religious can be viewed as signing up to an organization with others to worship a common God.
To me Religious would seem more cult like than spiritual.
...
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A simple spiritual not religious program.... The reason they chose to be spiritual and not religious is so they don't have to claim church status as that would require ordained ministers...Hence helping declassify them as a cult.
I didn’t read anywhere that they chose the term spiritual because of this reason. Many see spiritual and Religious as very different. Spiritual is typically seen by many to be very personal and somewhat inner private path, whereas Religious can be viewed as signing up to an organization with others to worship a common God.
To me Religious would seem more cult like than spiritual.
...
So you can only find one thing to knit pick about on that post... I will take it as a compliment... Got you thinking didn't it...
PS Go into you local church and present that to the minister.... :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.
Peace and much healing
:peace:
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Duplicate
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BP, please pay attention.
I am so happy Max and Whooter have taken the time to talk with you folks about AA. I could see are other buddy was not helping much with his advice.
BP, I hope that you are sincerely listening to Max and Whooter, they do not often spend time with folks like you. I am not being judgmental, just stating a fact.
Seriously BP, remember it is best to take the cotton out of your ears and place it in your mouth from time to time.
AA/NA has never been a religion or cult nor are they equipped to satisfy that criteria. They were designed to make sure these control devices never could take over. Number # 1 rule, No one has power, Number # 2 Only a loving god has authority as you define him and Number # 3 Rotating; chairs/chairman/office positions.
About A.A.
Alcoholics Anonymous is a fellowship of men and women who share their experience, strength and hope with each other that they may solve their common problem and help others to recover from alcoholism. The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking. There are no dues or fees for AA membership; we are self-supporting through our own contributions. AA is not allied with any sect, denomination, politics, organization or institution; does not wish to engage in any controversy, neither endorses nor opposes any causes. Our primary purpose is to stay sober and help other alcoholics to achieve sobriety.
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About A.A.
Alcoholics Anonymous is a fellowship of men and women who share their experience, strength and hope with each other that they may solve their common problem and help others to recover from alcoholism. The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking. There are no dues or fees for AA membership; we are self-supporting through our own contributions. AA is not allied with any sect, denomination, politics, organization or institution; does not wish to engage in any controversy, neither endorses nor opposes any causes. Our primary purpose is to stay sober and help other alcoholics to achieve sobriety.
[/b]
Too bad Billy Mays passed away... He could have used this pitch on a late night infomercial and saved the world...
Peace and much healing
:peace:
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A simple spiritual not religious program.... The reason they chose to be spiritual and not religious is so they don't have to claim church status as that would require ordained ministers...Hence helping declassify them as a cult.
I didn’t read anywhere that they chose the term spiritual because of this reason. Many see spiritual and Religious as very different. Spiritual is typically seen by many to be very personal and somewhat inner private path, whereas Religious can be viewed as signing up to an organization with others to worship a common God.
To me Religious would seem more cult like than spiritual.
...
So you can only find one thing to knit pick about on that post... I will take it as a compliment... Got you thinking didn't it...
PS Go into you local church and present that to the minister.... :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
I actually didnt agree with any of it, Botched. The last one seemed like you just made it up. If they had chosen the word religious over Spiritual you would probably have a problem with that also. So I dont understand why it was brought up. It just seems so weak of an argument with no purpose. Is AA suppose to be evil or something like programs? Are they viewed as abusive.
I am actually having a hard time understanding why anyone would be against an organization that is voluntary with a mission to help people. I read here all the time about how people should seek out local solutions instead of sending there kids away, treatment should be voluntary etc. etc.. Yet we view one of the local solutions and it seems this doesnt rise up to anyone's standards either and there is a need to tear it down.
It leads me to conclude that maybe the struggle with many here doesn't lie in the "type" of solution (local or residential) but rather you are against people getting better or seeking any type of help at all.
I will continue to read off to the side here mostly and maybe my questions will be answered. But I find it difficult to believe I am the only reader here who has a hard time understanding this argument or point of view.
...
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About A.A.
Alcoholics Anonymous is a fellowship of men and women who share their experience, strength and hope with each other that they may solve their common problem and help others to recover from alcoholism. The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking. There are no dues or fees for AA membership; we are self-supporting through our own contributions. AA is not allied with any sect, denomination, politics, organization or institution; does not wish to engage in any controversy, neither endorses nor opposes any causes. Our primary purpose is to stay sober and help other alcoholics to achieve sobriety.
[/b]
Too bad Billy Mays passed away... He could have used this pitch on a late night infomercial and saved the world...
Peace and much healing
:peace:
OK, you have asked everyone else not to be a shit here and what are you doing, baiting with sarcastic remarks.
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OK, now you asked everyone else not to be a shit here and what are you doing. Baiting with sarcastic remarks.
Not baiting... Just what I think of the AA preamble.... Billy Mays could have done a hell of an infomercial with it.. :seg:
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Steve Hassan, cult expert has an interesting article up on AA:
http://www.freedomofmind.com/resourcece ... a_cult.htm (http://www.freedomofmind.com/resourcecenter/groups/a/aa/is_aa_cult.htm)
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Steve Hassan, cult expert has an interesting article up on AA:
http://www.freedomofmind.com/resourcece ... a_cult.htm (http://www.freedomofmind.com/resourcecenter/groups/a/aa/is_aa_cult.htm)
Killer link Che.... Danny, Who, and max should really enjoy this read or not... Does have alot of good info.. supprised this is the first time I have seen it... Thanks..
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Something new to ponder... straight from the NA's Basic Text
We do recover page 84
When, at the end of the road, we find that we can no longer function as human beings, either
with or without drugs, we all face the same dilemma. What is there left to do? There seems to be
this alternative: either go on as best we can to the bitter ends—jails, institutions, or death—or find
a new way to live. In years gone by, very few addicts ever had this last choice. Those who are
addicted today are more fortunate. For the first time in history, a simple way has been proving
itself in the lives of many addicts. It is available to us all. This is a simple spiritual, not religious,
program known as Narcotics Anonymous.
As someone who has been in the position described in this quote, I have to say I actually find it highly inspiring. I also remember what I learned about why Bill W began AA and what it was like to suffer with addiction before it was recognized as a legitimate problem, and you were no longer forced to suffer in shame or expected to stop cold turkey all on your own. I think they say spiritual, because they AA doesn't refer to any specific religious doctrine, only to a higher power, which is sort of like a fact since the universe is a much bigger place than us, even atheists can admit that. So in a sense, we all believe in a higher power.
AA.NA I think wants to be inclusive, and not turn people off to it's message of sobriety by referring to Jesus or specifics like that, and I think that was the right way to do it. I'm going to be honest though, I remember reading the NA book as an assignment one time in a treatment hospital, and I thoroughly enjoyed it at the time and it had a big impact on me, because I was a drug addict. For people reading it who haven't been at rock bottom it probably seems, I don't know, but they might not fully understand how inspiring it can be, and also importantly non judgmental like most people are when dealing with addicts. So I'm just saying, I don't see this as propaganda at all. I think it's a very useful tool in recovery, and I also thought the meetings in conjunction with the books , was very helpful for me. This is just my interpretation of what I read above, based on my own positive experiences with NA, it's book and the people and meetings.
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Steve Hassan, cult expert has an interesting article up on AA:
http://www.freedomofmind.com/resourcece ... a_cult.htm (http://www.freedomofmind.com/resourcecenter/groups/a/aa/is_aa_cult.htm)
Killer link Che.... Danny, Who, and max should really enjoy this read or not... Does have alot of good info.. supprised this is the first time I have seen it... Thanks..
Oh yeah, real killer. It has been around for ages. What your missing is the dark element in all of society. AA does not interfere with their groups.
Groups have autonomy to do as they wish I'm afraid to say. One group of people could be demonstrating traits of cultist behavior where as the next group down the block is not.
AA, represents America. BP, Che, Anne, Max, Whooter and myself were all in there somewhere.
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You keep missing the point. The organization itself doesn't need to have a specific deity for it to be considered a cult. The doctrine of AA and the behavior of its members is what makes people think it is a cult.
Personally, I think it is a pile of hilarious shit that a bunch of drunks are gathering once a week under the premise that without AA they'll relapse and end up in a vomit piled heap in a gutter.
Great if it works for you, but the majority of those who force themselves to endure stale donuts and crappy coffee, AA does not work for them.
Luckily, going cold turkey and growing pair of balls seems to be a better option for them statistically speaking.
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Oh yeah, real killer. It has been around for ages. What your missing is the dark element in all of society. AA does not interfere with their groups.
Groups have autonomy to do as they wish I'm afraid to say. One group of people could be demonstrating traits of cultist behavior where as the next group down the block is not.
AA, represents America. BP, Che, Anne, Max, Whooter and myself were all in there somewhere.
(1) You and your group (You, Whooter, Max ) are not practicing autonomy with my group (Myself, Che, Anne, Shaggys, None-ya
(2) AA does not represent me... Cant speak for the others in my group... we are not controlled by group think
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Oh yeah, real killer. It has been around for ages. What your missing is the dark element in all of society. AA does not interfere with their groups.
Groups have autonomy to do as they wish I'm afraid to say. One group of people could be demonstrating traits of cultist behavior where as the next group down the block is not.
AA, represents America. BP, Che, Anne, Max, Whooter and myself were all in there somewhere.
(1) You and your group (You, Whooter, Max ) are not practicing autonomy with my group (Myself, Che, Anne, Shaggys, None-ya
(2) AA does not represent me... Cant speak for the others in my group... we are not controlled by group think
When is our next meeting master?
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http://www.freedomforum.org/templates/d ... entID=8479 (http://www.freedomforum.org/templates/document.asp?documentID=8479)
N.Y. county must pay atheist $1 after Supreme Court refuses to hear appeal
The Associated Press
11.16.99
WASHINGTON — The Supreme Court yesterday turned away an appeal from government officials who had been ordered to pay a symbolic $1 for requiring an atheist to attend Alcoholics Anonymous meetings that involved prayers and other religious content.
The justices, without comment, refused to hear an appeal in which Orange County, N.Y., probation officials argued that they did not violate the constitutionally required separation of church and state.
The court's action set no legal precedent and does not preclude the possibility that the justices may someday agree to consider the issue in some other case.
Robert Warner pleaded guilty in 1990 to his third alcohol-related driving offense in just over a year. Before his sentencing, he voluntarily began attending Alcoholics Anonymous meetings on his lawyer's advice.
The probation department recommended that the sentencing judge put Warner on probation and require him to continue attending the AA meetings. The judge agreed.
Warner, who said he is an atheist, later asked to be freed from the obligation to attend the meetings. He said they involved group prayers and that members were urged to "turn our will and our lives over to the care of God." A state court agreed to free Warner from having to attend the meetings, but said he would have to pay for treatment at a private facility.
He then sued Orange County in federal court, saying its recommendation to the judge violated his rights and amounted to a government establishment of religion.
A federal judge agreed and ordered the county to pay a symbolic $1 in damages. The 2nd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals upheld that ruling.
In the appeal acted on yesterday, the county's lawyers said the order to attend Alcoholics Anonymous was issued by the judge, not the probation department. The lawyers added that any religious content of the meetings was incidental to the goal of promoting sobriety.
The case is Orange County Department of Probation v. Warner.
http://www.freedomforum.org/templates/d ... ntID=14537 (http://www.freedomforum.org/templates/document.asp?documentID=14537)
Judge: Alcoholics Anonymous conversations are 'religious communication'
By The Associated Press
08.02.01
Printer-friendly page
WHITE PLAINS, N.Y. — A federal judge overturned a manslaughter conviction, saying conversations among Alcoholics Anonymous participants should not have been used as evidence because such exchanges are a form of confidential religious communication.
U.S. District Judge Charles Brieant said treating AA meetings with less protection than any other form of religious communication, which carries assurances of confidentiality, is unconstitutional.
The entire AA relationship, he wrote, "is anonymous and confidential."
Paul Cox, 33, had been convicted of two counts of manslaughter for stabbing to death Laksman Rao Chervu and his wife, Shanta, in their home in 1988. Cox claimed he was in an alcoholic stupor when he broke into the home, where he had lived as a child. He did not know the couple.
His trial featured testimony — some obtained by subpoena — from AA members who said Cox had discussed memories of the stabbings.
Cox was sentenced to a minimum of 16 years in prison. He appealed, claiming his statements to fellow AA members were confidential and should not have been admitted as evidence.
Brieant said a federal appeals court held in 1999 "that AA is a religion." That conclusion, he said, was reached in a case that said a criminal defendant could not be ordered to attend AA meetings "because of the religious nature of the 12 steps." The 12 steps are tasks AA participants are asked to complete as they fight alcoholism.
In his ruling July 31, Brieant said that, based on AA being considered a religion, disclosures of wrongs to fellow members should be protected by "a privilege granted to other religions similarly situated."
He also cited a state Court of Appeals finding that "adherence to the AA fellowship entails engagement in religious activity and religious proselytization."
Brieant stayed Cox's release to allow time for an appeal, which District Attorney Jeanine Pirro said she would pursue.
The prosecutor said the testimony was not privileged because "there was no evidence whatsoever that Alcoholics Anonymous is a religious organization as required by statute, or that another member is a clergyman."
Pirro also noted that the AA testimony did not concern what Cox said in meetings, but rather what he said in conversations outside meetings — a point Brieant did not address.
Cox's attorney, Robert Isseks, said the ruling was "a tremendous and strong statement of First Amendment principles."
A spokesman at AA's general services office in New York, who insisted that his name not be used because he is a member, said today that the organization would have no comment.
He said the ruling "falls under the guidance of our Tenth Tradition, which states that we would have no opinion on an outside issue. Our interpretation is that a court ruling or a medical advance, even though it may have something to do with us, is still an outside issue."
http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0199 ... igion.html (http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0199-2729337/A-state-religion.html)
Article Excerpt
The method of Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) and Narcotics Anonymous (NA), the Twelve Steps [see sidebar], has become, or has nearly become, a state religion -- thanks to transparently false claims that the steps are not religious, let alone the specific religion that they in fact constitute. 'State church' is not defined herein as every American being born into the religion, although this is the definite tendency. A court ruled a government usage of the steps "tends towards the establishment of a state religious faith." The tendency is illegal, even if a state church is not the technical actuality. The name of the religion is Steppism, the unique spiritual perspective of the steps.
The United States Supreme Court has let stand two completely separate decisions, both ruling AA "unequivocally religious", and thereby illegal for the applicable government usages. One of those decisions ruled AA "engages in religious activity and religious proselytization." The presence of proselytizing implies that AA is a religion by definition. That the method is an admitted spiritual formula indicates the methodology constitutes a religion.
The American Jewish Congress wrote a majestic friend of the court brief in Griffin v. Coughlin, June 11, 1996 before New York State's highest court, the Court of Appeals -- one of the decisions the U.S. Supreme Court let stand. The New York court further ruled AA "deeply religious" and "intensely religious." An attorney with the Christian Legal Society said that she completely empathizes. Americans for Religious Liberty, which has ministers, rabbis, and Catholic Sisters at the national level, has decided any government usage or promotion of the steps is illegal, as has American Atheists, Inc. The U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, in two separate cases before federal judges, ruled private twelve-stepping illegal.
The religious cult Synanon directly grew out of a specific AA meeting. The Heaven's Gate cult of 39 suicides in 1998 in California was outright twelve-step. Alcoholics Anonymous grew out of and was a part of (at least in Ohio), a fundamentalist evangelical Christian cult or sect called the Oxford Group, which was discredited by more mainstream Christianity. That discrediting was before the group's founder's remarks in the 1930s praising Adolf Hitler: "Thank God for a man like Adolf Hitler." So the Oxford Group changed its name to Moral Re-Armament (MRA), which exists today, and which has the same type of hidden agenda as AA: the replacement of democracy with theocracy. MRA admits to wanting rule by God. The question is begged: Whose version of which God?
The Church of Spiritual Recovery was a twelve-step church until about four years ago in Columbus, Ohio. The Recovery Church is or was in Auckland, New Zealand. So real cults grow out of Steppism and real churches are founded on it. But it isn't religious?
Conform or die is an official AA position in the pamphlet The 12 Concepts for World Service ((c) 1986). "We know we have to choose conformity to AA's Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions or else face dissolution and death." If spiritual conformity under life and death pressure is not religious, nothing is. AA writes of "complete defeat." The client of the professional Steppist counselor, the victim of the indoctrination, being defeated by alcohol is not enough for AA. It wants complete defeat as a person, so its phony idea of the person replaces what would be the not-addicted selves within everyone.
The very common argument "The steps are merely suggestions" is frankly a false argument, designed to draw the person further into AA for the purposes of indoctrination. The client who objects to the steps must then endure endless promotion of Stepping at virtually every meeting. The argument is plainly false in actual practice.
Promoting Religion
In the 1969 official AA pamphlet AA's Legacy of Service, AXs co-founder Bill Wilson wrote that proselytizing is the main reason for AA's existence: "Our Twelfth Step--carrying the message--is the basic service that the A.A. Fellowship gives; this is our principle aim and the main reason for our existence."
Even if it were legal for government to promote religion in general (as opposed to non-religion in general), there simply is no such thing. One or another religion always takes offense. And the steps are much too specific - even though broad in one area, containing surrender to God, faith healing, mysticism, proselytizing, confession, and prayer--to even be seriously considered for the impossible loophole. The steps may be referenced on page 59 of Alcoholics Anonymous. AA has rightly downplayed the so-called "flash of light" mystical experience; yet it exists in their doctrine.
Steppism discriminates against Atheism, Agnosticism, and Free-thought. Atheists generally deny the existence of any god or spiritual power, thus they are in violation of the steps. Chapter Four of Alcoholics Anonymous, "We Agnostics," is often touted as evidence Atheists and Agnostics are welcome in AA. However, Chapter Four's very obvious arguing for belief in a god belies this. The chapter insults Atheism and Agnosticism with arguments unacceptable in debate clubs--ad hominem arguments that imply the person is dishonest for not believing.
In Chapter One of Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, AA's second basic text, AA suggests alcoholics and potential alcoholics who reject AA drink. This is immoral. AA would rather see people die than recover without it. The great error commonly committed is definitional, confusing living sober with AA membership; these are nowhere near the same thing, granting that many thousands of people believe AA helps them with abstinence. Many people have positive experiences in Steppist groups.
In the second chapter of Narcotics Anonymous and elsewhere, repeatedly the authors wrote "we keep what we have only by giving it away." Steppism perceives proselytizing as necessary for sobriety. One of my opponents argued along the lines that because I was able to resist indoctrination, there is no violation of the Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment (from Lemon v. Kurtzman, the 3-pronged "Lemon test" for religious freedom violations of the Constitution). But if I had been converted, there would thereby be no perceived violation because the indoctrination would have been successful!
Tradition and patriotism as regards religious freedom cannot be a matter of trust with Steppists generally, because their first loyalty includes proselytizing. If democracy is a casualty, they won't know it. And AA has even betrayed itself.
Going Against Traditions
AA's second code of ethics, its Twelve Traditions, may be referenced on pages 564-568 of Alcoholics Anonymous. AA has lent its name and endorsement to virtually every alcoholism facility in the nation in violation of 'Tradition 6'. Professional 12-Stepping is absolutely forbidden by 'Tradition 8'. If cooperating with government coercion in signing court slips by AA meetings' secretaries is not a violation of Tradition 11's "attraction rather than promotion" policy, nothing is. The applicable governments are interfering in a big way with religion, in having made AA into something AA denied and denies wanting. The fact that government has induced AA into self-betrayal appears to be a serious violation of the Entanglement Clause of the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution (again see Lemon, excessive entanglement with a religion).
The first thing AA members use the professional community for, according to the chapter "Seeking professional help," page 58 of Living Sober ([c] 1975 by AA), is "job-getting." Part of AA's real, hidden, agenda is to join the helping professions to secure and expand its power. AA's proselytizing is very extreme, extending into subversion. Subversion is defined here as usurping the good intentions of government to its own purposes. The 'total overthrow' definition of subversion also applies here.
The goals of the group are placed above the needs and hopes of the client. The group succeeds even if 99% of the people exposed to it get drunk and fail. Abstinence is perceived to be a group project rather than an individual responsibility. Personal responsibility for and commitment to abstinence become conditional and temporary, good only until the next meeting. Thus AA's famous saying, "One day at a time."
AA's view of humanity is negative and defeatist. Other than to be healed by faith, nowhere in the steps is any information given on directly attacking active addiction. Is it legal for government to pay for religious faith healing? The answer of course is no; faith healing should be a private matter. In AA one is powerless, rather than one having power over addiction. AA's position is inhumane and mistaken. Group-based recovery has serious problems, including unhealthy and unnecessary dependency upon others. Meeting attendance implies the problem is unsolved, because the grouper otherwise has no self-interest in attending. AA's definition of what is called a "sponsor" is a guide to the steps. And it is ubiquitous in AA and in much of counseling to hear "Get a sponsor."
Not Religious?
There are three major arguments that the steps are not religious. All three are false, and each is religious! Evidence the first major argument: "It's spiritual but not religious." This is false, as the words have overlapping meanings in context. Spirituality is the experiential side of religion, apart from outward beliefs. One may claim the steps to be spiritual, but it is incontrovertible they are religious. AA is religious in its origins, its doctrine, its rituals, its expository writings, and in its unique definition of alcoholism as a spiritual disease. It is lost on the Steppists, unknown by them, that the Twelve Steps are their religious doctrine, their dogma. Twelve-step treatment turned me from a believer in God into an Atheist.
There might be such a thing as having a spiritual but not religious experience. For this to be the actuality, no other person, or no more than three others, can agree with the belief system. The point is moot. Steppist dogma is just that--dogma. Part of this unique doctrine is you can invent your own spiritual view, have a different name for your god of the steps. Even agreement in this equals religion, because any religion is defined as agreement concerning purported spiritual ideas, no matter how broad any such belief If not, there is yet the overarching religion of the steps.
The second major argument, "It's God as you understand God" is false because it's God as the steps would want you to understand any purported God. The religious nature of the argument is blatant; and not all religions believe in a god. God is mentioned or alluded to (Him) in fully six of the steps.
The third argument "Your higher power can be anything" is incomplete and false, because although 'higher powers' may conflict with one of the steps, it is then only with respect to religion. If more steps are objected to, we then have the kind of thing like a Jew in an evangelical Christian church. So also with a client's invented higher power. A higher power is intended to be a spiritual higher power. The argument further tends to be religious because fetishism--object worship--is religion. Very many in AA mention light bulbs or doorknobs as higher powers.
Coerced to Step
When, as is often the case, judges order people to attend AA or Steppist addiction treatment they are forcing under threat of incarceration--Muslims, Jews, and Atheists to endure Christian evangelism. Yet the problem is much worse because the coerced indoctrination is covert, concealed through the denials of religiosity. Hiding the religious nature of the program and of the fellowship is supported by the powerful coercions of strong group pressure and strong professional authority--and one has no choice! These coercions are in addition to the overt coercions.
Governmental coercions to partake in the Stepping religion that have been ruled illegal by American courts include receiving prison perks for Stepping, and in one case even a driver's license. People lose licenses to practice medicine, law, and other professions unless they Step. Nor would offering a choice that included Steppism be legal, because most counselors would proselytize for AA. Such a 'choice' artificially elevates one religion, Steppism, above all other religions. The official figure from my home State, Ohio, indicates that 30% of available counselors are themselves members of twelve-step groups, although it is probably higher. Such dual relationship with the client would be an ethical violation in other helping professions.
Stepping on the Young
Many young people abuse alcohol or drugs, but moderate or quit as they mature. Twelve-Stepping them is inappropriate, and much worse. Stepping is a life sentence in actual practice. The very often-heard remark is "The first thing I notice about people who relapse [resume drinking] is they quit going to meetings." One is expected to be an AA member for life. A great weakness of AA is it provides no way of leaving it. That which is needed is information on how to recover from AA's fabricated definition of "recovery," meaning not questioning, and practicing, the steps. Recovery should be defined as abstinence or moderation.
Religious cults sometimes tend to make up their own meanings for words. AA is hardly the kind of religion like just going to church on Sunday; as courts have ruled, it is "intensely religious." We "tried to practice these principles in all our affairs" [from the steps]. It is exasperating to tell the truth about AA, because of its excellent, though completely undeserved, reputation. Twelve-stepping young people is child abuse, even granting many Steppists have good intentions. Intention is not effect. Because drunkenness is expected if anyone leaves AA, AA trains some people to be powerless over alcohol, a self-fulfilling prophecy.
An article in the September 24, 1999 edition of the American Psychological Association Journal reported group interventions for troubled adolescents can backfire. This isn't the only such study. The thoughts of likeminded people gain strength from such a group of people--thirty people together in one room for an NA meeting, many of them actively using drugs, some of them actively dealing drugs, and most of them wanting drugs or they wouldn't be there in the first place! Addicts have given their opinions Narcotics Anonymous is the best place to deal drugs!
AA, also Al-Anon and Narc-Anon, Steppist groups for family members, replace traditional family values with their values. The destruction of family values can be perceived in the codependency movement, most of whose members are also members of 12-step groups. Common human caring has been perverted to be like a disease symptom. It is important to realize the drastic invasiveness of Steppism. Even familial love is degraded.
AA members commonly claim being abstinent without working the steps is not sobriety, rather a "dry drunk" in the sense the person still craves alcohol or is agitated. But cravings diminish with some sober time; so some AA members crave. And the claim is mean--the method is above questioning....
http://open.salon.com/blog/bonnie_russe ... a_religion (http://open.salon.com/blog/bonnie_russell/2010/08/28/note_to_lindsay_lohan_the_9th_circuit_says_aa_is_a_religion)
Appeals court says requirement to attend AA unconstitutional
Bob Egelko, Chronicle Staff Writer
Saturday, September 8, 2007
"Alcoholics Anonymous, the renowned 12-step program that directs problem drinkers to seek help from a higher power, says it's not a religion and is open to nonbelievers. But it has enough religious overtones that a parolee can't be ordered to attend its meetings as a condition of staying out of prison, a federal appeals court ruled Friday.
In fact, said the Ninth U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in San Francisco, the constitutional dividing line between church and state in such cases is so clear that a parole officer can be sued for damages for ordering a parolee to go through rehabilitation at Alcoholics Anonymous or an affiliated program for drug addicts.
Rulings from across the nation since 1996 have established that "requiring a parolee to attend religion-based treatment programs violates the First Amendment," the court said. "While we in no way denigrate the fine work of (Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous), attendance in their programs may not be coerced by the state."
The 12 steps suggested for participants in both programs include an acknowledgment that "a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity" and a promise to "turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him." They also call for prayer and meditation."
(It was a 3-0 ruling)
The case had its beginnings after a Buddhist with a drinking problem, rejected as a condition of parole a requirement he attend AA meetings.
The Buddhist claimed AA was a religion. AA claims it's generic spiritual, not religious.
However, in certain parts of the country AA meeting leaders will openly request,
"We ask you not share unless you have taken Jesus Christ as your spiritual savior."
Which is another way of saying, "Give me that old time religion!"
In case you are unaware of the far reach of the 9th Circuit, below is a handy map.
http://articles.sfgate.com/2007-09-08/b ... eals-court (http://articles.sfgate.com/2007-09-08/bay-area/17259704_1_parole-officer-treatment-program-appeals-court)
Appeals court says requirement to attend AA unconstitutional
Religious content of program violates rights, court says
SAN FRANCISCO
September 08, 2007|By Bob Egelko, Chronicle Staff Writer
Alcoholics Anonymous, the renowned 12-step program that directs problem drinkers to seek help from a higher power, says it's not a religion and is open to nonbelievers. But it has enough religious overtones that a parolee can't be ordered to attend its meetings as a condition of staying out of prison, a federal appeals court ruled Friday.
In fact, said the Ninth U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in San Francisco, the constitutional dividing line between church and state in such cases is so clear that a parole officer can be sued for damages for ordering a parolee to go through rehabilitation at Alcoholics Anonymous or an affiliated program for drug addicts.
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See I was right Dogmatic Step Cult !!!! :seg:
Tell it like is sister Anne !!!! :cheers:
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You keep missing the point. The organization itself doesn't need to have a specific deity for it to be considered a cult. The doctrine of AA and the behavior of its members is what makes people think it is a cult.
Personally, I think it is a pile of hilarious shit that a bunch of drunks are gathering once a week under the premise that without AA they'll relapse and end up in a vomit piled heap in a gutter.
Great if it works for you, but the majority of those who force themselves to endure stale donuts and crappy coffee, AA does not work for them.
Luckily, going cold turkey and growing pair of balls seems to be a better option for them statistically speaking.
Che your right I am missing your point. I"ll tell you why, I do not think you of all people believe AA is that misaligned in it's ability to help folks.
I don't know what exactly is the point of your post, other than to just insult AA and the people who are receiving help voluntarily.
Well, we don't feel insulted because we understand that you really do not mean what your saying.
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Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
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How do they build trust amongst fellow AA members during AA meetings? Do they have an "ice breaker?" http://www.secretprisonsforteens.dk/for ... s_propheet (http://www.secretprisonsforteens.dk/fornitswiki/index.php/Propheets_%28CEDU%29#The_Childrens_propheet)
Joel go undercover to a AA meeting. Go to several and mingle. Ice breakers, this is not a program Joel. Stay in touch.
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I read through the posts and I don’t see where AA did anything wrong or where they harm people. Was someone hurt during one of the meetings?
Maybe this can be analogous to the following:
There is this lady in my wife’s circle who changed her diet several years ago and doesn’t eat meat and took up yoga and she really looks great for her age now. She lost a ton of weight. But there are many woman who criticize her and saying she is jeopardizing her health by not eating meat and they make fun of her. The ones who are the most critical are those who are the most overweight. So it is clear that whether or not this woman eats meat or not is the issue. It seems they view the yoga lady as successful and are a bit jealous that she was able to overcome her weight issues.
...
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:cheers:
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:cheers:
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Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
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:cheers:
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I read through the posts and I don’t see where AA did anything wrong or where they harm people. Was someone hurt during one of the meetings?
Maybe this can be analogous to the following:
There is this lady in my wife’s circle who changed her diet several years ago and doesn’t eat meat and took up yoga and she really looks great for her age now. She lost a ton of weight. But there are many woman who criticize her and saying she is jeopardizing her health by not eating meat and they make fun of her. The ones who are the most critical are those who are the most overweight. So it is clear that whether or not this woman eats meat or not is the issue. It seems they view the yoga lady as successful and are a bit jealous that she was able to overcome her weight issues.
...
Not even on the Topic... Please read the AA literature and go to some meetings so you can have an educated discussion... You have the passion but you are uninformed.
...
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I read through the posts and I don’t see where AA did anything wrong or where they harm people. Was someone hurt during one of the meetings?
Maybe this can be analogous to the following:
There is this lady in my wife’s circle who changed her diet several years ago and doesn’t eat meat and took up yoga and she really looks great for her age now. She lost a ton of weight. But there are many woman who criticize her and saying she is jeopardizing her health by not eating meat and they make fun of her. The ones who are the most critical are those who are the most overweight. So it is clear that whether or not this woman eats meat or not is the issue. It seems they view the yoga lady as successful and are a bit jealous that she was able to overcome her weight issues.
Not even on the Topic... Please read the AA literature and go to some meetings so you can have an educated discussion... You have the passion but you are uninformed.
...
:notworthy: :notworthy: Why the hell he feels the need to chime in on this subject when he states he has no knowledge of the basic principles of AA (said he's not familiar with the big book) is beyond me.
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I read through the posts and I don’t see where AA did anything wrong or where they harm people. Was someone hurt during one of the meetings?
Maybe this can be analogous to the following:
There is this lady in my wife’s circle who changed her diet several years ago and doesn’t eat meat and took up yoga and she really looks great for her age now. She lost a ton of weight. But there are many woman who criticize her and saying she is jeopardizing her health by not eating meat and they make fun of her. The ones who are the most critical are those who are the most overweight. So it is clear that whether or not this woman eats meat or not is the issue. It seems they view the yoga lady as successful and are a bit jealous that she was able to overcome her weight issues.
Not even on the Topic... Please read the AA literature and go to some meetings so you can have an educated discussion... You have the passion but you are uninformed.
...
:notworthy: :notworthy: Why the hell he feels the need to chime in on this subject when he states he has no knowledge of the basic principles of AA (said he's not familiar with the big book) is beyond me.
The same reason you do. You can say you went to AA and know about AA but anyone who has been affiliated with AA knows the truth, Anne. You have no idea on a ground level what the hell your talking about when it comes to AA.
Keep reading the OJ papers and talking with fictitious women on the weekends about AA, Anne.
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I read through the posts and I don’t see where AA did anything wrong or where they harm people. Was someone hurt during one of the meetings?
Maybe this can be analogous to the following:
There is this lady in my wife’s circle who changed her diet several years ago and doesn’t eat meat and took up yoga and she really looks great for her age now. She lost a ton of weight. But there are many woman who criticize her and saying she is jeopardizing her health by not eating meat and they make fun of her. The ones who are the most critical are those who are the most overweight. So it is clear that whether or not this woman eats meat or not is the issue. It seems they view the yoga lady as successful and are a bit jealous that she was able to overcome her weight issues.
Not even on the Topic... Please read the AA literature and go to some meetings so you can have an educated discussion... You have the passion but you are uninformed.
...
:notworthy: :notworthy: Why the hell he feels the need to chime in on this subject when he states he has no knowledge of the basic principles of AA (said he's not familiar with the big book) is beyond me.
The same reason you do. You can say you went to AA and know about AA but anyone who has been affiliated with AA knows the truth, Anne. You have no idea on a ground level what the hell your talking about when it comes to AA.
Keep reading the OJ SIMPLETON WIFE KILLING HERTZS papers and talking with fictitious women on the weekends about AA, Anne.
8)
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I read through the posts and I don’t see where AA did anything wrong or where they harm people. Was someone hurt during one of the meetings?
Maybe this can be analogous to the following:
There is this lady in my wife’s circle who changed her diet several years ago and doesn’t eat meat and took up yoga and she really looks great for her age now. She lost a ton of weight. But there are many woman who criticize her and saying she is jeopardizing her health by not eating meat and they make fun of her. The ones who are the most critical are those who are the most overweight. So it is clear that whether or not this woman eats meat or not is the issue. It seems they view the yoga lady as successful and are a bit jealous that she was able to overcome her weight issues.
Not even on the Topic... Please read the AA literature and go to some meetings so you can have an educated discussion... You have the passion but you are uninformed.
...
:notworthy: :notworthy: Why the hell he feels the need to chime in on this subject when he states he has no knowledge of the basic principles of AA (said he's not familiar with the big book) is beyond me.
The same reason you do. You can say you went to AA and know about AA but anyone who has been affiliated with AA knows the truth, Anne. You have no idea on a ground level what the hell your talking about when it comes to AA.
Keep reading the OJ papers and talking with fictitious women on the weekends about AA, Anne.
Get Sober Danny and quit violating your precious fellowships traditions.. Thank you for sharing your insanity... PS Danny if you sit quietly and listen you may learn something.. Do me a favor give me your sponsor's name and number so I can tell him what you are doing here and lets see if he approves... :rofl:
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The same reason you do. You can say you went to AA and know about AA but anyone who has been affiliated with AA knows the truth, Anne. You have no idea on a ground level what the hell your talking about when it comes to AA.
Keep reading the OJ SIMPLETON WIFE KILLING HERTZS papers and talking with fictitious women on the weekends about AA, Anne.
It must be really rattling your nerves for you to go on and on about this. What I've posted is either MY OPINION or straight from the AA literature itself. I realize it must scare the shit out of you that you've been fed the bullshit for so long, but DAMN. We're posting our experiences, just as you are. You just seem to get really, really pissed off if our experiences don't match up with what you've been sold.
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It must be really rattling your nerves for you to go on and on about this. What I've posted is either MY OPINION or straight from the AA literature itself. I realize it must scare the shit out of you that you've been fed the bullshit for so long, but DAMN. We're posting our experiences, just as you are. You just seem to get really, really pissed off if our experiences don't match up with what you've been sold.
I wouldn't have guessed that Felice ascribed to AA..
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The same reason you do. You can say you went to AA and know about AA but anyone who has been affiliated with AA knows the truth, Anne. You have no idea on a ground level what the hell your talking about when it comes to AA.
Keep reading the OJ SIMPLETON WIFE KILLING HERTZS papers and talking with fictitious women on the weekends about AA, Anne.
It must be really rattling your nerves for you to go on and on about this. What I've posted is either MY OPINION or straight from the AA literature itself. I realize it must scare the shit out of you that you've been fed the bullshit for so long, but DAMN. We're posting our experiences, just as you are. You just seem to get really, really pissed off if our experiences don't match up with what you've been sold.
No one here is pissed, Anne. We never have been at you or anyone else. We just have to stay on the ball with you and make sure you are being honest, that's all.
Go on an share your experiences all you want, just make sure you have a footer, telling everyone that you have limited if any experience with AA, other then what you have read from other sources. That your experiences are hollow and fictitious.
Can you do this, please.
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The same reason you do. You can say you went to AA and know about AA but anyone who has been affiliated with AA knows the truth, Anne. You have no idea on a ground level what the hell your talking about when it comes to AA.
Keep reading the OJ SIMPLETON WIFE KILLING HERTZS papers and talking with fictitious women on the weekends about AA, Anne.
It must be really rattling your nerves for you to go on and on about this. What I've posted is either MY OPINION or straight from the AA literature itself. I realize it must scare the shit out of you that you've been fed the bullshit for so long, but DAMN. We're posting our experiences, just as you are. You just seem to get really, really pissed off if our experiences don't match up with what you've been sold.
No one here is pissed, Anne. We never have been at you or anyone else. We just have to stay on the ball with you and make sure you are being honest, that's all.Go on an share your experiences all you want, just make sure you have a footer, telling everyone that you have limited if any experience with AA, other then what you have read from other sources. That your experiences are hollow and fictitious.
Can you do this, please.
(1) Are you here defending AA because your sponsor and your fellowship have directed you to defend the AA name on this forum.... Highly doubtful..
(2) Our AA experiences are ours and we can tell them like we want... You my friend argue over our experience rather than cite how wonderful yours is.
(3) Have you even mentioned to your sponsor that you post on this forum and has he seen any of your post... I should think not, it's your dirtly little secret that will keep you sick.
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. Quoting lenin ( no, not John, it's vladimir, silly) political power begins at the barrel of a gun. ( I think he meant muzzle, but he said barrel)
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Actually, that quote is from Chairman Mao. I think he said "the truth comes from the barrel of a gun". Another interesting quote about truth is from a notable politician from a prominent European nation. He said it sometime in the late 1930s. "The victor will not be asked whether he told the truth".
Take care, J.O. M., I always enjoy reading your posts, they are both interesting and informative.
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No one here is pissed, Anne. We never have been at you or anyone else. We just have to stay on the ball with you and make sure you are being honest, that's all.
Right....that's why you physically threaten people who disagree with your opinions on AA.
Go on an share your experiences all you want, just make sure you have a footer, telling everyone that you have limited if any experience with AA, other then what you have read from other sources. That your experiences are hollow and fictitious.
I know it makes you feel better to believe that, but everything I've written about AA is either directly from my many experiences or reading the big book.
Can you do this, please.
Can you do what you said you were going to and quit debating the issue?
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I just wanted everyone to know I enjoyed a beer with my dinner last night.
:twofinger:
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I just wanted everyone to know I enjoyed a beer with my dinner last night.
:twofinger:
So did I in a tall frosty mug... loved watching the sweat beads run down the glass... But loved the taste of it more... Got a date this weekend and bought a real nice bottle of wine for us to drink as we sit on the beach and look at the stars... :seg:
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I'd remind you of the evil of mixing drinking and women, but I'm sure I'd only be preaching to the choir.
:seg:
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I just wanted everyone to know I enjoyed a beer with my dinner last night.
:twofinger:
So did I in a tall frosty mug... loved watching the sweat beads run down the glass... But loved the taste of it more... Got a date this weekend and bought a real nice bottle of wine for us to drink as we sit on the beach and look at the stars... :seg:
Hve fun, but PLEASE don't drive!
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No one here is pissed, Anne. We never have been at you or anyone else. We just have to stay on the ball with you and make sure you are being honest, that's all.
Right....that's why you physically threaten people who disagree with your opinions on AA.
Can I have a post, where it shows specifically, I threatened someone physically that did not agree with my opinions concerning AA.
Go on an share your experiences all you want, just make sure you have a footer, telling everyone that you have limited if any experience with AA, other then what you have read from other sources. That your experiences are hollow and fictitious.
I know it makes you feel better to believe that, but everything I've written about AA is either directly from my many experiences or reading the big book.
Riiiiiiiiggghhhhhtttt.............and it shows. :rofl: :rofl:
Can you do this, please.
Can you do what you said you were going to and quit debating the issue?
I was talking to BP. You on the other hand, I have all the time in the world for.
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I just wanted everyone to know I enjoyed a beer with my dinner last night.
:twofinger:
Good on ya!
I enjoyed a couple of beers with a Nordic goddess today. Man has she got me fucked up..........but it's a good fucked up, so I'm OK with it.
Oh yeah, we smoked a bowl or two of TBPITW, too..........but I guess that part belongs on another thread.
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I just wanted everyone to know I enjoyed a beer with my dinner last night.
:twofinger:
Good on ya!
I enjoyed a couple of beers with a Nordic goddess today. Man has she got me fucked up..........but it's a good fucked up, so I'm OK with it.
Oh yeah, we smoked a bowl or two of TBPITW, too..........but I guess that part belongs on another thread.
Drinking beer and smoking bones, life in the USA. Nothing wrong with this way of living.
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I just wanted everyone to know I enjoyed a beer with my dinner last night.
:twofinger:
Good on ya!
I enjoyed a couple of beers with a Nordic goddess today. Man has she got me fucked up..........but it's a good fucked up, so I'm OK with it.
Oh yeah, we smoked a bowl or two of TBPITW, too..........but I guess that part belongs on another thread.
Just got back from drinking dollar draft.... and a bowl of TBPITW.......Like minds bro....
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Hey Danny I saw a song for you and you look good in the video too .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtMy5IBm ... re=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtMy5IBmX7E&feature=related)
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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Can I have a post, where it shows specifically, I threatened someone physically that did not agree with my opinions concerning AA.
You don't remember just a few days ago saying that you were going to "kick my ass"? You don't remember posting that you were in Tampa and I'd better watch myself?
Wow....you really ARE delusional.
Watch, his response will be that his threat wasn't brought about by an AA discussion but he can't deny that he threatens people here on a fairly regular basis.
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Can I have a post, where it shows specifically, I threatened someone physically that did not agree with my opinions concerning AA.
You don't remember just a few days ago saying that you were going to "kick my ass"? You don't remember posting that you were in Tampa and I'd better watch myself?
Wow....you really ARE delusional.
Watch, his response will be that his threat wasn't brought about by an AA discussion but he can't deny that he threatens people here on a fairly regular basis.
I even quoted what he said and bolded in red for him and advised that that statement could get him put in jail...
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Can I have a post, where it shows specifically, I threatened someone physically that did not agree with my opinions concerning AA.
You don't remember just a few days ago saying that you were going to "kick my ass"? You don't remember posting that you were in Tampa and I'd better watch myself?
Wow....you really ARE delusional.
Watch, his response will be that his threat wasn't brought about by an AA discussion but he can't deny that he threatens people here on a fairly regular basis.
Anne, show me a post where I specifically said that I was going to kick your ass, if you did not post what I wanted you to post.
Show me where I specifically said that while I was in Tampa, (I am here right now, for the holiday weekend. I will also be at my families beach house in Englewood.) that I was going to kick your ass.
Listen peeps, stop acting like a bunch of bitches, who can dole it out but can not take it. No body said I had to play by your rules, even if you did I would not.
Many folks speak to the effect of kicking your ass, having your ass handed to you, folks tell folks to STFU, fuck off, one of Annes favorites, telling men to suck dick, you have a little dick, you take it up the ass.
Anne where I grew up even if you were a girl and you spoke to some guy like this, not good. I personally don't care.
Yo, Momma Anne, please shut up on the threatening thing while your ahead. You have no idea how many folks in the years you have been here, that you have threatened. Read girl, read.
Have a fun holiday weekend, I'd tell you where I am at but I would be afraid you would crash the party.
Please show me where I have posted threats on a daily bases, please. Com'on Anna Banana, your talking shit now, cite girl cite.
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Anne, show me a post where I specifically said that I was going to kick your ass, if you did not post what I wanted you to post.
I didn't say that you would kick my as "if I didn't post what you wanted me to post", but you most certainly did threaten me (and others) with physical violence. The fact that you deny this really shows how delusional you are.
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=28923&start=195 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=28923&start=195)
It seems you are the one that feels threatened.
Gee...I wonder why?
Well then keep drumming because your solo. Joel your not even with someone and neither is your brother. DUh.....I have been with two women in my life, one passed on and I am currently with the second. She has posted here and has had some serious comments for Anne and Felice. I/we have absolutely no respect for them then again I have showed no mercy on Ursus, Che, DJ, Paul (lill johnny) and yourself dickwad I don't give a flying fuck what you think of me,. I'll kick Annes ass as sure as I will kick your ass. Don't like it, take your balls and go home.
Don't like what I have to say about Anne, go back and read and you will see who started the vulgar deprecating verbal attacks. You have always seemed to have no memory.
Don't come around with some moronic psycho-babble, you know nothing about.
Keep trying your diversion Joel, sorry though (3) of us have our feet planted right on Anne's ass.
You were just a snack during intermission.
Bye Bye sissyboy.
Anne, shut your pie hole and suck it up, ya baby. No, Anne, I said I would kick your ass.... :roflmao:
Oh, hear we go. Danny said he was going to kick my ass. OH boo hoo, I'm so scared I peed my pants. Would Anne, Joel and BP like some depends for your protection. Right now I am kicking your ass, how does it feel.
I just love how you folks make such a big deal out of what I say. That is why I say it. Because I love to see you folks cry.
Oh Danny is threatening me, Danny is sexually assaulting me, Danny is doing this, Suck-It is doing that, Tim is doing this, Whooter is doing that and bla bla bla.........
Guys step off you freaking pansies. Go cry to the authorities or other wise suck it up. You get what ya get because you give what ya give.
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viewtopic.php?f=22&t=30596&p=365310&hilit=Tampa+kick+ass#p365310 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=30596&p=365310&hilit=Tampa+kick+ass#p365310)
I am in Florida right now just down the street from you. Know what I mean. Vacation in Tampa. Short hop, skip and jump from you. Name the place, love to talk with you and your daddy.
All my shit is done face to face you fucking coward bet Matty is sucking on your tit right now.
Please call 404-936-6141 be here till 6/21/10. Be looking fo ya.
Danny
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:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: Anna Banana, your killing me this is your evidence. Damn, are you all this fucking crazy in Florida.
Anne, please your acting like a southern red neck with an IQ of 1% above plant life.
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DannyBoi, you are seriously deranged. The threats you made to Anne reveal what a pathetic lowlife, cowardly, would-be internet bully that you are. She posts the threats you made (I don't see how they can be construed as anything other than threatening) and you babble on about your "defects of character" as if that somehow excuses your behavior. Wow, what a tough guy-----making threats over the internet, to a woman. You are a complete waste of space, and the world would be a much better place without you. Go eat a gun, jump off a bridge, or throw yourself in a wood chipper, maybe your sorry remains could be used to fertilize a pot plant, finally making you useful for something other than an example of how truly low a human being can sink.
Actually, Dannyboi, you do provide a service, unintended as it most certainly is---you illustrate (far more effectively than anyone else could) just what kind of mindless, smugly ignorant, no-good assholes that are created by adherence to Stepcraft and the Stepcult.
DannyBoi the 12 Step internet tough guy...........can't match wits with a woman who is clearly your intellectual superior, so you resort to making threats of violence toward her. You are truly a disgusting, cowardly piece of shit.
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DannyBoi, you are seriously deranged. The threats you made to Anne reveal what a pathetic lowlife, cowardly, would-be internet bully that you are. She posts the threats you made (I don't see how they can be construed as anything other than threatening) and you babble on about your "defects of character" as if that somehow excuses your behavior. Wow, what a tough guy-----making threats over the internet, to a woman. You are a complete waste of space, and the world would be a much better place without you. Go eat a gun, jump off a bridge, or throw yourself in a wood chipper, maybe your sorry remains could be used to fertilize a pot plant, finally making you useful for something other than an example of how truly low a human being can sink.
Actually, Dannyboi, you do provide a service, unintended as it most certainly is---you illustrate (far more effectively than anyone else could) just what kind of mindless, smugly ignorant, no-good assholes that are created by adherence to Stepcraft and the Stepcult.
DannyBoi the 12 Step internet tough guy...........can't match wits with a woman who is clearly your intellectual superior, so you resort to making threats of violence toward her. You are truly a disgusting, cowardly piece of shit.
Oh, did I hurt both your feelings, keep coming with the threat accusations. I love it when the "group think" here, hits on a character about someone they don't agree with or like(or plural) and just runs with it. In my case, I am ignorant, my grammar is sub par, I threaten people (which I probably do if your on the internet) and so on.
Jeesh, RTP2003, you are such, ("the original"), thanks a bunch, for pointing out what a 100 posters have said before.
I bet you left your computer feeling very satisfied with yourself, that you told me a thing or two, by golly.
Well, you have yourself a happy holiday and don't fret, I got your message.
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Oh, Danny, you are such a drama queen........
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WOW.... Danny, You really know how to have fun on vacation in Florida.... You could have spent your time on the beach getting sun on your white ass and checking out the good looking women wearing bikinis, fishing, amusment parks, boating, and since you go to AA we have more meetings in Florida than probably any other given state.... Dude, you wasted all your time that was supposed to be fun being on the internet arguing and causing disharmony... I guess this is how you have fun... Is that what you learned in your precious "Step Cult Like Group" I should hope not... Hope your significant other did not miss out on checking any of the the things you could have been doing except for checking out the women... Hope she was checking out the guys with rock hard abs and maybe even having fun without your miserable ass.
peace
:peace:
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Yo, BP, dude I have a home here in Florida, so not so much a vacation. Most of my family is in Florida also. BTW, I fished Friday, Saturday and Sunday. My brother in-law has a beautiful fishing boat. Thanks for inquiring, UUUUuuuuggghhhhh.....have you ever heard of a laptop with a "card" for transmission, works great on the sea.
Nope have not been to any meeting and don not plan on going. Told many of you folks before, I do not attend meeting that much at all anymore. Once again thanks for asking. Seems BP, you are fixated on AA more so then anyone else here. Maybe you should go to a meeting and get your anxiety worked out, then while your in the meeting you can spout off like you are doing here, if ya have the balls.
I really have no idea what Liza does when I'm not around, I can only hope she is enjoying herself. Trust has always been huge in our relationship of almost 20 years, so we don't have a tendency of exhausting anxiety when we are apart.
My business ventures keep me on the run most of the year so Liza has lots of time to herself, as I do.
Grow up BP, maybe then, you can have a relationship other then with yourself.