Fornits
General Interest => Open Free for All => Topic started by: Maximilian on August 29, 2010, 08:34:30 PM
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is it true people here actually do this? Seriously? WTF?
Can you share with us all, what exactly do you put on the flyers to convince people they shouldn't go to AA?
I find this very interesting, in a very crazy kind of way, but interesting none the less. If I came out of a meeting and found something like that, I'd think it was scientology or some crazy cult. Care to explain??
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Strange, I haven't heard anyone actually suggest that...
..until you just did.
...
11/10
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Strange, I haven't heard anyone actually suggest that...
..until you just did.
...
11/10
Really? Don't you read the threads you start? Believe me I couldn't make something that absurd up out of the blue.
From the Primer for the Uninitiated thread, Che gookin said this:
I'd hate to see you become the next fornits member to join the Whooter Patrol and piss away hour after hour doing nothing much of anything useful. Those are hours you can spend slipping anti-AA flyers under windshields at your nearest AA meeting. You've done this before, you posted that you felt incredibly liberated by the experience.
Perhaps Che Gookin was just joking around, ironically suggesting that arguing with Whooter is a waste of time just like slipping flyers beneath people's cars? I have no idea, but this is where I saw it and thought to myself, WTF is this all about? I've worked putting flyers beneath people's windshields for businesses, and it sucks hardcore, I can't imagine anybody doing this on their own time. Most people just throw them away, I'd watch them do it and think to myself, damn that was a waste of time ,but at least I was getting paid by the hour!!
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So are you getting paid by the hour to post on a forum where everyone hates you with good reason?
That sounds like a much worse job than going around depositing flyers.
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Strange, I haven't heard anyone actually suggest that...
..until you just did.
...
11/10
Really? Don't you read the threads you start? Believe me I couldn't make something that absurd up out of the blue.
From the Primer for the Uninitiated thread, Che gookin said this:
I'd hate to see you become the next fornits member to join the Whooter Patrol and piss away hour after hour doing nothing much of anything useful. Those are hours you can spend slipping anti-AA flyers under windshields at your nearest AA meeting. You've done this before, you posted that you felt incredibly liberated by the experience.
Perhaps Che Gookin was just joking around, ironically suggesting that arguing with Whooter is a waste of time just like slipping flyers beneath people's cars? I have no idea, but this is where I saw it and thought to myself, WTF is this all about? I've worked putting flyers beneath people's windshields for businesses, and it sucks hardcore, I can't imagine anybody doing this on their own time. Most people just throw them away, I'd watch them do it and think to myself, damn that was a waste of time ,but at least I was getting paid by the hour!!
Nope Che is not joking about this... It is something I have done for years now... I have editided a bunch of information from the Orange Papers that will leave an newcomer and sometimes a seasoned AA member to question what they are doing at the meetings... Take a look at my footer where it says "AA is a cult" and I have a link to the Orange Papers webby... Take a gander at it for your self...
Peace and much healing
:peace:
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So are you getting paid by the hour to post on a forum where everyone hates you with good reason?
That sounds like a much worse job than going around depositing flyers.
The good reason to hate me is because I say a program saved my life? I haven't told anybody here they weren't abused, I'm just saying what happened to me. Should I lie about my own experience, to fit in here, and have people not hate me? That's why I call this place a cult, because honesty isn't respected, only ideology. If I was here selling programs, I'd probably post a link or two to the programs I thought were the best, don't you think? But hey, don't let logic get in the way of a good conspiracy, I know how much fornits posters enjoy them.
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Nope Che is not joking about this... It is something I have done for years now... I have editided a bunch of information fro the Orange Papers that will leave an newcomer and sometimes a seasoned AA member to question what they are doing at the meetings... Take a look at my footer where it says "AA is a cult" and I have a link to the Orange Papers webby... Take a gander at it for your self...
Peace and much healing
:peace:
I've looked over the orange papers website before, it's interesting. I disagree, I think AA, at least for me was a very positive experience and I enjoyed it and the people a lot. Do you have any of the flyers scanned on your computer? It would be interesting to see what they look like, I'm curious now after hearing about it.
I am sincerely interested though, why do you think AA is so bad? Is it because the abusive program you were in used AA, or did you have other experiences with AA that made you feel this way? Obviously something must have happened, if you are motivated enough to pass out flyers on your own time.
Have you ever run into anybody while posting it on their car? Did they get upset, or were they open to what you had to say? Sorry for all the questions, this is the first time I've heard about this tactic before. Do you think it works, has anybody contact you and said thanks for the flyer, I don't go to AA any longer? I'd love to hear some stories about how you do this, and what happens if you run into people or something. Like I said, I like AA but I find this interesting and am open to hearing your opinions on AA. What makes me curious most of all, is what happened that was so bad at AA that would give someone this kind of motivation? Thanks
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I've looked over the orange papers website before, it's interesting. I disagree, I think AA, at least for me was a very positive experience and I enjoyed it and the people a lot. Do you have any of the flyers scanned on your computer? It would be interesting to see what they look like, I'm curious now after hearing about it.
I am sincerely interested though, why do you think AA is so bad? Is it because the abusive program you were in used AA, or did you have other experiences with AA that made you feel this way? Obviously something must have happened, if you are motivated enough to pass out flyers on your own time.
Have you ever run into anybody while posting it on their car? Did they get upset, or were they open to what you had to say? Sorry for all the questions, this is the first time I've heard about this tactic before. Do you think it works, has anybody contact you and said thanks for the flyer, I don't go to AA any longer? I'd love to hear some stories about how you do this, and what happens if you run into people or something. Like I said, I like AA but I find this interesting and am open to hearing your opinions on AA. What makes me curious most of all, is what happened that was so bad at AA that would give someone this kind of motivation? Thanks
Max... I will attempt to answer all of your questions if I miss anything I am not evading questions, just ask me and I will answer you to the best of my ability... I will remain quiet as this is personal info that I care not to devulge wide open on the internet with as it is no body's buisness other than mine and whoever else I feel confortable sharing it with.
To address if I have the paper scanned into my computer, I have several drafts as I update material so they are not seeing the same info over and over... I give them stuff to piece together... Makes some of the oldtimers actually question their own words in meetings.. seen it happen first hand as I went to a meeting and saw a guy with double digit years share about the papers that he has read and even commented how it had him not sure of some things.
As far as getting caught by any, they have seen me putting out flyers but they assume it is a restraunt menu or something,,, remeber I live in FL. I tend to make sure that everyone is inside and sometime I go in and act like I was just late for the meeting... remember seated from prayer to prayer..
Why do I not like 12 step groups in genereral, well I really feel all 12 step groups are cults, most people do not end up in a meeting just because thier lives are peachy perfect, through working their so called steps they tear down a persons individuality, proceed to trying to instill in their minds that with the first whatever they are going to die, and if a person does choose to partake, they get flooded by shame and guilt. Been to to many meetings see it regularly here with all the dang halfway houses for all the industry treatment centers that ship their products here.
As far as my experiences in 12 step groups, I refrain from answering... You have to be a friend or loved one for me to talk to you about that... No offense... I don't know you.. Anonimity.
My motivation for it comes from how treatment centers either bastardize the steps and try to use them to break down a client and make them submit to a fucked up way of thinking...they must operate within the bounds of group think... they do not rely on their own instincts and survival skills..
Hope this answered most of your questions
Much peace and healing
:peace:
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THIS MIGHT WORK[attachment=0:fe4iwvcl]aa flyer 2.jpg[/attachment:fe4iwvcl]
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Edited
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THIS MIGHT WORK[attachment=0:1kq9mdgo]aa flyer 2.jpg[/attachment:1kq9mdgo]
Extra-special bonus points if you can get the pub in question to actually honor it, or attach some kind of coupon that they already do honor.
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Edited
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Strange, I haven't heard anyone actually suggest that...
..until you just did.
...
11/10
Really? Don't you read the threads you start? Believe me I couldn't make something that absurd up out of the blue.
From the Primer for the Uninitiated thread, Che gookin said this:
I'd hate to see you become the next fornits member to join the Whooter Patrol and piss away hour after hour doing nothing much of anything useful. Those are hours you can spend slipping anti-AA flyers under windshields at your nearest AA meeting. You've done this before, you posted that you felt incredibly liberated by the experience.
Perhaps Che Gookin was just joking around, ironically suggesting that arguing with Whooter is a waste of time just like slipping flyers beneath people's cars? I have no idea, but this is where I saw it and thought to myself, WTF is this all about? I've worked putting flyers beneath people's windshields for businesses, and it sucks hardcore, I can't imagine anybody doing this on their own time. Most people just throw them away, I'd watch them do it and think to myself, damn that was a waste of time ,but at least I was getting paid by the hour!!
Nope Che is not joking about this... It is something I have done for years now... I have editided a bunch of information from the Orange Papers that will leave an newcomer and sometimes a seasoned AA member to question what they are doing at the meetings... Take a look at my footer where it says "AA is a cult" and I have a link to the Orange Papers webby... Take a gander at it for your self...
Peace and much healing
:peace:
BP, what happened. Seriously just what in gods name happened to you. Don't blame it on a program either. Dude you are a certified "whack job" and I am not kidding.
Che, is a fucking idiot and your listening to him. Hey, try this. Tell Che to hump his ass from meeting to meeting placing a flyers under wind shields.
BP, do you also go to Baptist Churches and do the same thing.
Last, go to your local T/C program and place flyers under their windshields.
Don't be a stooge.
-
Strange, I haven't heard anyone actually suggest that...
..until you just did.
...
11/10
Really? Don't you read the threads you start? Believe me I couldn't make something that absurd up out of the blue.
From the Primer for the Uninitiated thread, Che gookin said this:
I'd hate to see you become the next fornits member to join the Whooter Patrol and piss away hour after hour doing nothing much of anything useful. Those are hours you can spend slipping anti-AA flyers under windshields at your nearest AA meeting. You've done this before, you posted that you felt incredibly liberated by the experience.
Perhaps Che Gookin was just joking around, ironically suggesting that arguing with Whooter is a waste of time just like slipping flyers beneath people's cars? I have no idea, but this is where I saw it and thought to myself, WTF is this all about? I've worked putting flyers beneath people's windshields for businesses, and it sucks hardcore, I can't imagine anybody doing this on their own time. Most people just throw them away, I'd watch them do it and think to myself, damn that was a waste of time ,but at least I was getting paid by the hour!!
Nope Che is not joking about this... It is something I have done for years now... I have editided a bunch of information from the Orange Papers that will leave an newcomer and sometimes a seasoned AA member to question what they are doing at the meetings... Take a look at my footer where it says "AA is a cult" and I have a link to the Orange Papers webby... Take a gander at it for your self...
Peace and much healing
:peace:
BP, what happened. Seriously just what in gods name happened to you. Don't blame it on a program either. Dude you are a certified "whack job" and I am not kidding.
Che, is a fucking idiot and your listening to him. Hey, try this. Tell Che to hump his ass from meeting to meeting placing a flyers under wind shields.
BP, do you also go to Baptist Churches and do the same thing.
Last, go to your local T/C program and place flyers under their windshields.
Don't be a stooge.
(1) It's none of your business... I don't know you
(2) I was doing this way before Che knew anything about it.. I turned him on to the idea
(3) just because it.s a church don.t mean anything... Any orginization can rent a room from a church for meetings..meetings are not affiliated with the church in any way...
(4) I am so sorry your brain is all fucked up with stepcult group think.
(5) Most important...FUCK YOU!!!
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Botched, can I make a flier for you to put out for me? I heard of this chick who got raped after an AA meeting by her "sponsor". I'll run down the information for you.
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Botched, can I make a flier for you to put out for me? I heard of this chick who got raped after an AA meeting by her "sponsor". I'll run down the information for you.
By all means Che... I will take them Friday to the church down the street They have an AA womens meeting that night... You have my personal email so shoot it to me,,,
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Done deal, will crank up photoshop and slick it up nicely with some background designs and such. I bet I can get a graphics designer I met here on fornits to help with a logo for you.
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I've looked over the orange papers website before, it's interesting. I disagree, I think AA, at least for me was a very positive experience and I enjoyed it and the people a lot. Do you have any of the flyers scanned on your computer? It would be interesting to see what they look like, I'm curious now after hearing about it.
I am sincerely interested though, why do you think AA is so bad? Is it because the abusive program you were in used AA, or did you have other experiences with AA that made you feel this way? Obviously something must have happened, if you are motivated enough to pass out flyers on your own time.
Have you ever run into anybody while posting it on their car? Did they get upset, or were they open to what you had to say? Sorry for all the questions, this is the first time I've heard about this tactic before. Do you think it works, has anybody contact you and said thanks for the flyer, I don't go to AA any longer? I'd love to hear some stories about how you do this, and what happens if you run into people or something. Like I said, I like AA but I find this interesting and am open to hearing your opinions on AA. What makes me curious most of all, is what happened that was so bad at AA that would give someone this kind of motivation? Thanks
Max... I will attempt to answer all of your questions if I miss anything I am not evading questions, just ask me and I will answer you to the best of my ability... I will remain quiet as this is personal info that I care not to devulge wide open on the internet with as it is no body's buisness other than mine and whoever else I feel confortable sharing it with.
To address if I have the paper scanned into my computer, I have several drafts as I update material so they are not seeing the same info over and over... I give them stuff to piece together... Makes some of the oldtimers actually question their own words in meetings.. seen it happen first hand as I went to a meeting and saw a guy with double digit years share about the papers that he has read and even commented how it had him not sure of some things.
As far as getting caught by any, they have seen me putting out flyers but they assume it is a restraunt menu or something,,, remeber I live in FL. I tend to make sure that everyone is inside and sometime I go in and act like I was just late for the meeting... remember seated from prayer to prayer..
Why do I not like 12 step groups in genereral, well I really feel all 12 step groups are cults, most people do not end up in a meeting just because thier lives are peachy perfect, through working their so called steps they tear down a persons individuality, proceed to trying to instill in their minds that with the first whatever they are going to die, and if a person does choose to partake, they get flooded by shame and guilt. Been to to many meetings see it regularly here with all the dang halfway houses for all the industry treatment centers that ship their products here.
As far as my experiences in 12 step groups, I refrain from answering... You have to be a friend or loved one for me to talk to you about that... No offense... I don't know you.. Anonimity.
My motivation for it comes from how treatment centers either bastardize the steps and try to use them to break down a client and make them submit to a fucked up way of thinking...they must operate within the bounds of group think... they do not rely on their own instincts and survival skills..
Hope this answered most of your questions
Much peace and healing
:peace:
Thanks for answering me. Do you feel that programs version of AA is what is going on in church AA meetings, though? I've never seen anyone forced to break down and submit in an AA meeting. It seemed like it was just people sharing their stories, and trying to support one another. Do you think AA works for anybody? I've known people who credit AA with saving their life, that's why I ask. Do you ever feel like you might be sabotaging somebody's recovery by giving them an excuse to go back to drinking? Like, they might say "oh AA is a cult, I knew it! Guess I'll go get drunk!" Do you believe some people have problems with alcohol that they need help, and might not be able to afford a nice rehab center?
I'm asking these in good faith, I'm not looking to turn this into a political battle about AA. I am just curious as how you perceive it, and the people that attend AA meetings. I guess because it's adults who choose to go, and choose to believe in something that works for them, I don't see what the harm is. It's kind of like religion, it seems to help a lot of people, even if it's been bastardized in the past, like you said the 12 steps were, to do harm to some people. I'm wondering, a lot of people believe in God, and religion and the afterlife. What if you were a scientist, and you happened to discover the proof that there is, in fact, no immortal souls, we completely cease to exist at death. Would you offer this proof up, and ruin many people's beliefs that seem to comfort them, or would you keep this information to yourself?
-
Strange, I haven't heard anyone actually suggest that...
..until you just did.
...
11/10
Really? Don't you read the threads you start? Believe me I couldn't make something that absurd up out of the blue.
From the Primer for the Uninitiated thread, Che gookin said this:
I'd hate to see you become the next fornits member to join the Whooter Patrol and piss away hour after hour doing nothing much of anything useful. Those are hours you can spend slipping anti-AA flyers under windshields at your nearest AA meeting. You've done this before, you posted that you felt incredibly liberated by the experience.
Perhaps Che Gookin was just joking around, ironically suggesting that arguing with Whooter is a waste of time just like slipping flyers beneath people's cars? I have no idea, but this is where I saw it and thought to myself, WTF is this all about? I've worked putting flyers beneath people's windshields for businesses, and it sucks hardcore, I can't imagine anybody doing this on their own time. Most people just throw them away, I'd watch them do it and think to myself, damn that was a waste of time ,but at least I was getting paid by the hour!!
Nope Che is not joking about this... It is something I have done for years now... I have editided a bunch of information from the Orange Papers that will leave an newcomer and sometimes a seasoned AA member to question what they are doing at the meetings... Take a look at my footer where it says "AA is a cult" and I have a link to the Orange Papers webby... Take a gander at it for your self...
Peace and much healing
:peace:
BP, what happened. Seriously just what in gods name happened to you. Don't blame it on a program either. Dude you are a certified "whack job" and I am not kidding.
Che, is a fucking idiot and your listening to him. Hey, try this. Tell Che to hump his ass from meeting to meeting placing a flyers under wind shields.
BP, do you also go to Baptist Churches and do the same thing.
Last, go to your local T/C program and place flyers under their windshields.
Don't be a stooge.
(1) It's none of your business... I don't know you.
OH, it is my business when you are talking out of your ass about AA here.
(2) I was doing this way before Che knew anything about it.. I turned him on to the idea
I find that hard to believe but anything is possible.
(3) just because it.s a church don.t mean anything... Any orginization can rent a room from a church for meetings..meetings are not affiliated with the church in any way...
I was talking about if you go to Churches on Sundays and put flyers on windshields telling folks the same thing you want to tell folks going to AA.
(4) I am so sorry your brain is all fucked up with stepcult group think.
I never went to a stepcult or craft program, you did my friend.
(5) Most important...FUCK YOU!!!
Well, hell yeah.
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So are you getting paid by the hour to post on a forum where everyone hates you with good reason?
That sounds like a much worse job than going around depositing flyers.
Pile no one hates Max, that is a fact. You and your disgusting behavior with a young memeber, well that is something totally different.
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Done deal, will crank up photoshop and slick it up nicely with some background designs and such. I bet I can get a graphics designer I met here on fornits to help with a logo for you.
Hey man got that flyer youve got... I will put some work on it with my photoshop give it some good graphics.. and adopt it into my format... This is going to be some good stuff for the ladies to read... I am going to try it out on the womens group first and watch from across the street at my friends house to see thei reactions... Will let you know how it works out..
Peace and much healing
:peace:
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You will be posting it here so we can all see?
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Thanks for answering me. Do you feel that programs version of AA is what is going on in church AA meetings, though? I've never seen anyone forced to break down and submit in an AA meeting. It seemed like it was just people sharing their stories, and trying to support one another. Do you think AA works for anybody? I've known people who credit AA with saving their life, that's why I ask. Do you ever feel like you might be sabotaging somebody's recovery by giving them an excuse to go back to drinking? Like, they might say "oh AA is a cult, I knew it! Guess I'll go get drunk!" Do you believe some people have problems with alcohol that they need help, and might not be able to afford a nice rehab center?
I'm asking these in good faith, I'm not looking to turn this into a political battle about AA. I am just curious as how you perceive it, and the people that attend AA meetings. I guess because it's adults who choose to go, and choose to believe in something that works for them, I don't see what the harm is. It's kind of like religion, it seems to help a lot of people, even if it's been bastardized in the past, like you said the 12 steps were, to do harm to some people. I'm wondering, a lot of people believe in God, and religion and the afterlife. What if you were a scientist, and you happened to discover the proof that there is, in fact, no immortal souls, we completely cease to exist at death. Would you offer this proof up, and ruin many people's beliefs that seem to comfort them, or would you keep this information to yourself?
Max... I will work on answering some of these for you tomorrow as I don't want Danny blowing a 50 amp fuse tonight... His employer may need him tomorrow.
Peace and much healing
:peace:
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- Baby bong - :rocker: :rocker: :rocker: :rocker: :rocker: ::OMG:: ::OMG::
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Done deal, will crank up photoshop and slick it up nicely with some background designs and such. I bet I can get a graphics designer I met here on fornits to help with a logo for you.
Hey man got that flyer youve got... I will put some work on it with my photoshop give it some good graphics.. and adopt it into my format... This is going to be some good stuff for the ladies to read... I am going to try it out on the womens group first and watch from across the street at my friends house to see thei reactions... Will let you know how it works out..
Peace and much healing
:peace:
Ya exactly what I thought Che and yourself stalking ladies at AA meeting and threatening them with rape stories. Then standing across the street laughing at their reactions. This is your idea of helping people.
Like I said BP, your a total fucking "whack job".
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You will be posting it here so we can all see?
May take me till Thursday to get it done as I need to find some related links from Orange Papers and do more research so I can give links on the pages so that they can look on the webby's and see it is not a bunch of made up stuff... The fliers that I make up get changed up quite a bit... that way it is like a puzzle for their minds to try to put together.... You can't just go in the flier and say AA is a Cult... there has to be reason and purpose that they think it...And then towards the end their minds are open to grasping the concept of the truth that AA is a cult... Once I am done I will send you personally a copy of it... Don't want to post it and give fuel for a troll fire... As you already see we have a troll by the name of Danny already trying to show us a vulgar diplay of how his cult think mind works... He's a sicko psyco.
Peace and much healing
:peace:
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- Program cake / blow up doll blow up doll - :rocker: :rocker: :rocker: :rocker: :rocker: ??? ??? :sue:
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Done deal, will crank up photoshop and slick it up nicely with some background designs and such. I bet I can get a graphics designer I met here on fornits to help with a logo for you.
Hey man got that flyer youve got... I will put some work on it with my photoshop give it some good graphics.. and adopt it into my format... This is going to be some good stuff for the ladies to read... I am going to try it out on the womens group first and watch from across the street at my friends house to see thei reactions... Will let you know how it works out..
Peace and much healing
:peace:
Ya exactly what I thought Che and yourself stalking ladies at AA meeting and threatening them with rape stories. Then standing across the street laughing at their reactions. This is your idea of helping people.
Like I said BP, your a total fucking "whack job".
Hey Danny I go SA (Sex Annonymous) meetings and hang outside waiting for the women who relapse.... So Again I must say..FUCK YOU.....Danny !!!!
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- BBW bondage - :rocker: :rocker: :rocker: :rocker: :rocker: :sue: :sue: ::OMG:: ::OMG::
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AA
Thanks for answering me. Do you feel that programs version of AA is what is going on in church AA meetings, though? I've never seen anyone forced to break down and submit in an AA meeting. It seemed like it was just people sharing their stories, and trying to support one another. Do you think AA works for anybody? I've known people who credit AA with saving their life, that's why I ask. Do you ever feel like you might be sabotaging somebody's recovery by giving them an excuse to go back to drinking? Like, they might say "oh AA is a cult, I knew it! Guess I'll go get drunk!" Do you believe some people have problems with alcohol that they need help, and might not be able to afford a nice rehab center?
I'm asking these in good faith, I'm not looking to turn this into a political battle about AA. I am just curious as how you perceive it, and the people that attend AA meetings. I guess because it's adults who choose to go, and choose to believe in something that works for them, I don't see what the harm is. It's kind of like religion, it seems to help a lot of people, even if it's been bastardized in the past, like you said the 12 steps were, to do harm to some people. I'm wondering, a lot of people believe in God, and religion and the afterlife. What if you were a scientist, and you happened to discover the proof that there is, in fact, no immortal souls, we completely cease to exist at death. Would you offer this proof up, and ruin many people's beliefs that seem to comfort them, or would you keep this information to yourself?
(1) AA is just a watered down version of what the programs push..
(2)When a person arives to the door of any 12 step program they feel they have absolutely no hope. And to be honest cult propaganda can be very persuasive.When they start listening to the propaganda daily for 90 days their mind begins to mess with them, when this occurs they become mindless drones unable to make a decision with out the collective group think
(3)No I don't feel I am sabatoging anybody's said so called sobriety. I am merely helping them see the truth. "They have free choice whether to take the red pill or the blue one..." (Matrix Joke)
(4) You are totally right about it being like religion, hell it is one
CULT defined
(1) a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents
(2) a system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator
Dogma defined
Dogma defined
1. A doctrine or a corpus of doctrines relating to matters such as morality and faith, set forth in an authoritative manner by a church.
2. An authoritative principle, belief, or statement of ideas or opinion, especially one considered gmato be absolutely true. See Synonyms at doctrine.
3. A principle or belief or a group of them:
Back to topic
(5) And yes if I were a scientist and I found there was no existance of creator or omnipotent God, by all means people should be informed.. to hold back information is just is to basically lie, remember in AA if the person has the ability to be honest with himself he too can recover.. True statement... How ever they addopted it I use this line too to help people to wake up from their sleep. As long as a person is plugged into the collective conscious as a group it makes it a hard to make decisions for ones own self... this is a form of independence.
Independence defined
(1) The state or quality of being independent; freedom from dependence; exemption from reliance on, or control by, others; self-subsistence or maintenance; direction of one's own affairs without interference.
Max ... I hope this answered most of your questions..
Peace and much healing
:peace:
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I spent the weekend with someone who's been going to meetings for a year. They have a sponsor who, 2 weeks ago, told them that they didn't need their anti-depressants. Told them to stop taking them - cold turkey. Told them that if they prayed hard enough, God would remove the need for them. ::) ::) ::) ::) The kid was trying to "do the right thing" and, unfortunately, followed their sponsor's advice. As any thinking person would expect, the poor kid ended up in a severe depression and called me because they were thinking about using. Thankfully, they're back on the medication but it will take a couple of weeks for it to take effect again. Who the fuck do Stepcrafters think they are that they can practice medicine without a license??
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I've looked over the orange papers website before, it's interesting. I disagree, I think AA, at least for me was a very positive experience and I enjoyed it and the people a lot.
I've always said that I don't have a problem with like-minded people getting together to support each other in a common goal. What I do have a problem with is all the dogma. In the 12 & 12, they're told that if they don't follow AA's path that they're "surely signing their own death warrant", among other absurdities. Not to mention that's it IS religious no matter how much they deny it. They lull the newcomer in with the "god of your choice" bullshit. We've all heard the 'doorknob' crap and it's just that...crap. Once they feel the newcomer is sufficiently indoctrinated, they push the religious aspect more and more until the person finally gives in or gives up.
I am sincerely interested though, why do you think AA is so bad? Is it because the abusive program you were in used AA, or did you have other experiences with AA that made you feel this way? Obviously something must have happened, if you are motivated enough to pass out flyers on your own time.
Well, if you look at the study that AA's own George Valliant did regarding the efficacy of AA you'll see that not only did AA not help, it hurt. AA's "success" rate (again, according to Valliant) was a mere 5% - the exact same as spontaneous remission (a/k/a doing nothing). The death rate among those that attended AA was much higher than those that did nothing.
What makes me curious most of all, is what happened that was so bad at AA that would give someone this kind of motivation? Thanks
Things like what happened to the person I was talking about in my earlier post. I've personally seen that particular evil perpetrated on more than a few unsuspecting souls. Their sponsors tell them to go off their meds, they get depressed and end up using. I don't know what makes the Stepcrafters think that they can practice medicine without a license. They're driving these poor people into relapse. I've also seen countless divorces because a sponsor or group tells the AAer that their spouse "is dangerous to their sobriety" for simply questioning some of AA's methods.
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Thanks for answering me. Do you feel that programs version of AA is what is going on in church AA meetings, though? I've never seen anyone forced to break down and submit in an AA meeting.
All the time! Although it's a much more subtle version of the breakdown. AA could never get away with what programs do, but the peer pressure and fearmongering aspects are still there in spades.
It seemed like it was just people sharing their stories, and trying to support one another. Do you think AA works for anybody?
No, not really. I think it can be useful as strictly a support group, but leave out the big book, 12 & 12 and the rest of the dogma.
I've known people who credit AA with saving their life, that's why I ask.
I've known people that swear that crystals saved their lives. Does that make it so?
Do you ever feel like you might be sabotaging somebody's recovery by giving them an excuse to go back to drinking? Like, they might say "oh AA is a cult, I knew it! Guess I'll go get drunk!"
Do you ever feel like you're setting up a self fulfilling prophecy for these people? The "if you walk out those doors, you'll DIE" mentality is a dangerous setup.
Do you believe some people have problems with alcohol that they need help, and might not be able to afford a nice rehab center?
Yes, doesn't excuse the dogma.
I'm asking these in good faith, I'm not looking to turn this into a political battle about AA. I am just curious as how you perceive it, and the people that attend AA meetings. I guess because it's adults who choose to go, and choose to believe in something that works for them, I don't see what the harm is. It's kind of like religion, it seems to help a lot of people, even if it's been bastardized in the past, like you said the 12 steps were, to do harm to some people. I'm wondering, a lot of people believe in God, and religion and the afterlife. What if you were a scientist, and you happened to discover the proof that there is, in fact, no immortal souls, we completely cease to exist at death. Would you offer this proof up, and ruin many people's beliefs that seem to comfort them, or would you keep this information to yourself?
When asked, I absolutely tell people that I believe that when you die you die. That's it, there is no more.
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Break it down Anne !!!!!!!
:rocker:
Peace and much healing
:peace:
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Break it down Anne !!!!!!!
:rocker:
Peace and much healing
:peace:
:seg2: :nods: Right back atya!!!
:rasta: Thank FSM for Agent Orange!!!
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I really didnt get why people could be against something that is voluntary. If it works for you then fine if it doesnt then you should try something else. We should not ridicule the guy who goes to AA or ridicule the guy who decides to take a different path.
The Orange papers may be true or they may be false, but its just one mans opinion. Its not based on fact. I could say the world is going to end tomorrow and you couldnt disprove it (until tomorrow lol)... so a man writes a paper based on personal opinions and you believe him. There is nothing wrong with that. But we cant put it out there as fact. Orange Papers could be considered a religion also in itself because it is one person with many followers believing his every word.
Just one example:
Even the most ardent true believers who will be honest about it recognize that A.A. and N.A. have at least 90% failure rates. And the real numbers are more like 95% or 98% or 100% failure rates. It depends on who is doing the counting, how they are counting, and what they are counting or measuring.
He never cites a study and then goes on for pages basing his personal hypothesis and statistics on these numbers which were pulled from the air.
Link to source (http://http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-effectiveness.html)
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The Orange papers may be true or they may be false, but its just one mans opinion. Its not based on fact. ...
What in the hell do you think that the AA Big Book or the NA Basic Test is... AA was written by Bill Wilson and the NA basic text was written by Jimmy K... So here we have it 2 guys writing his own opinion.
Man go back and troll your own thread... we are having an intelligent conversation with Max, we might have a chance to save him.... LOL
Peace and much healing
:peace:
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Well I appreciate the efforts of Botched to expose the AA cult for what it is. Yo Botched, dont even bother with DannyB unless you just feel like letting off some steam because he has less than zero cred here anyway. He has admitted on numerous occasions that he suffers from severe mental disorders and in fact has bragged about them. It was funny to see him calling you "psycho". Everyone here knows that Danny is incredibly unstable and never to be taken seriously. Thanks for your posts Botched.
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The Orange papers may be true or they may be false, but its just one mans opinion. Its not based on fact. ...
What in the hell do you think that the AA Big Book or the NA Basic Test is... AA was written by Bill Wilson and the NA basic text was written by Jimmy K... So here we have it 2 guys writing his own opinion.
Peace and much healing
:peace:
And at least AO cites his sources for his opinions (even though Whooter dismisses them) and uses critical thought to come to his conclusions. AA/Bill Wilson rely on his Bella Donna and withdrawal induced rantings.
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I really didnt get why people could be against something that is voluntary. If it works for you then fine if it doesnt then you should try something else. We should not ridicule the guy who goes to AA or ridicule the guy who decides to take a different path.
Because it gets dangerous with the Stepcrafters doing what they did to this kid I'm talking about. And it's not like it's an uncommon practice for the Stepcrafters to tell people to stop taking their meds, or divorce the spouse who dares question AA, or setup a self fulfilling prophecy of death if they leave "the rooms".
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Man go back and troll your own thread... we are having an intelligent conversation with Max, we might have a chance to save him.... LOL
Peace and much healing
:peace:
Ayup....Whooter's upset because nobody will play with him in the sandbox, er thread, he started.
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I flipped over to Fark and, lo and behold, look what I found!!!
:nods: :nods: :rofl: :rofl: :rocker: :rocker: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/08599201433200 (http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/08599201433200)
Heavy Drinkers Outlive Nondrinkers, Study Finds
Time.com
By JOHN CLOUD John Cloud – Mon Aug 30, 6:50 am ET
One of the most contentious issues in the vast literature about alcohol consumption has been the consistent finding that those who don't drink actually tend to die sooner than those who do. The standard Alcoholics Anonymous explanation for this finding is that many of those who show up as abstainers in such research are actually former hard-core drunks who had already incurred health problems associated with drinking.
But a new paper in the journal Alcoholism: Clinical and Experimental Research suggests that - for reasons that aren't entirely clear - abstaining from alcohol does actually tend to increase one's risk of dying even when you exclude former drinkers. The most shocking part? Abstainers' mortality rates are higher than those of heavy drinkers. (See pictures of booze under a microscope.)
Moderate drinking, which is defined as one to three drinks per day, is associated with the lowest mortality rates in alcohol studies. Moderate alcohol use (especially when the beverage of choice is red wine) is thought to improve heart health, circulation and sociability, which can be important because people who are isolated don't have as many family members and friends who can notice and help treat health problems.
But why would abstaining from alcohol lead to a shorter life? It's true that those who abstain from alcohol tend to be from lower socioeconomic classes, since drinking can be expensive. And people of lower socioeconomic status have more life stressors - job and child-care worries that might not only keep them from the bottle but also cause stress-related illnesses over long periods. (They also don't get the stress-reducing benefits of a drink or two after work.)
But even after controlling for nearly all imaginable variables - socioeconomic status, level of physical activity, number of close friends, quality of social support and so on - the researchers (a six-member team led by psychologist Charles Holahan of the University of Texas at Austin) found that over a 20-year period, mortality rates were highest for those who had never been drinkers, second-highest for heavy drinkers and lowest for moderate drinkers. (Watch TIME's Video "Taste Test: Beer With Extra Buzz.")
The sample of those who were studied included individuals between ages 55 and 65 who had had any kind of outpatient care in the previous three years. The 1,824 participants were followed for 20 years. One drawback of the sample: a disproportionate number, 63%, were men. Just over 69% of the never-drinkers died during the 20 years, 60% of the heavy drinkers died and only 41% of moderate drinkers died.
These are remarkable statistics. Even though heavy drinking is associated with higher risk for cirrhosis and several types of cancer (particularly cancers in the mouth and esophagus), heavy drinkers are less likely to die than people who have never drunk. One important reason is that alcohol lubricates so many social interactions, and social interactions are vital for maintaining mental and physical health. As I pointed out last year, nondrinkers show greater signs of depression than those who allow themselves to join the party.
The authors of the new paper are careful to note that even if drinking is associated with longer life, it can be dangerous: it can impair your memory severely and it can lead to nonlethal falls and other mishaps (like, say, cheating on your spouse in a drunken haze) that can screw up your life. There's also the dependency issue: if you become addicted to alcohol, you may spend a long time trying to get off the bottle. (Comment on this story.)
That said, the new study provides the strongest evidence yet that moderate drinking is not only fun but good for you. So make mine a double.
See the top 10 long-forgotten liquors.
Read "Why Nondrinkers May Be More Depressed."
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=31027#p376365 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=31027#p376365)
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Man go back and troll your own thread... we are having an intelligent conversation with Max, we might have a chance to save him.... LOL
Peace and much healing
:peace:
Ayup....Whooter's upset because nobody will play with him in the sandbox, er thread, he started.
No, I started that so that any trolling, trolling discussions can be kept there and personal attacks can be kept out of threads like these. But, Anne, you are still hell bent on derailing this thread. Lets keep on the topic of AA.
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I really didnt get why people could be against something that is voluntary. If it works for you then fine if it doesnt then you should try something else. We should not ridicule the guy who goes to AA or ridicule the guy who decides to take a different path.
Because it gets dangerous with the Stepcrafters doing what they did to this kid I'm talking about. And it's not like it's an uncommon practice for the Stepcrafters to tell people to stop taking their meds, or divorce the spouse who dares question AA, or setup a self fulfilling prophecy of death if they leave "the rooms".
If AA supports this then I would agree with you. I am not familiar with the writing of the Big Book. This may be just one guy pushing his personal agenda.
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Right you are Anne. AA tells its members that they will surely die without their precious sobriety and the path to sobriety is exclusively owned by AA. I have told the story before about how my half-brother wrecked his marriage to a great woman with his AA bullshit. She could take the drinking but not his fanatical devotion to AA. When given an ultimatum: AA or your family. He chose AA.
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Man go back and troll your own thread... we are having an intelligent conversation with Max, we might have a chance to save him.... LOL
Peace and much healing
:peace:
Ayup....Whooter's upset because nobody will play with him in the sandbox, er thread, he started.
No, I started that so that any trolling, trolling discussions can be kept there and personal attacks can be kept out of threads like these. But, Anne, you are still hell bent on derailing this thread. Lets keep on the topic of AA.
...
You are not invited to participate in this discussion ...man... LOL :seg:
Peace and much healing
:peace:
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If AA supports this then I would agree with you. I am not familiar with the writing of the Big Book. This may be just one guy pushing his personal agenda.
Then maybe you should refrain from commenting until you know what you're talking about. It's the AA bible.....seriously.
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If AA supports this then I would agree with you. I am not familiar with the writing of the Big Book. This may be just one guy pushing his personal agenda.
Then maybe you should refrain from commenting until you know what you're talking about. It's the AA bible.....seriously.
Whooter..Take time to look online at AA and read their big book... I would also take time to look at the NA basic text as well then have this conversation with us, we are discussing the point with people who are educated as far as these matters go...
I would also suggest to do further research for yourself and go to meetings.
Here are you a couple links to get you started
http://www.aa.org/?Media=PlayFlash (http://www.aa.org/?Media=PlayFlash)
http://www.na.org/ (http://www.na.org/)
Happy reading..
Peace and much healing
:peace:
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I spent the weekend with someone who's been going to meetings for a year. They have a sponsor who, 2 weeks ago, told them that they didn't need their anti-depressants. Told them to stop taking them - cold turkey. Told them that if they prayed hard enough, God would remove the need for them. ::) ::) ::) ::) The kid was trying to "do the right thing" and, unfortunately, followed their sponsor's advice. As any thinking person would expect, the poor kid ended up in a severe depression and called me because they were thinking about using. Thankfully, they're back on the medication but it will take a couple of weeks for it to take effect again. Who the fuck do Stepcrafters think they are that they can practice medicine without a license??
Anne being dishonest is exactly why many here have stopped reading your rubbish. Your a liar Anne. This story above, is something you are making up, so you can play too.
Very sad, Anne.
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I spent the weekend with someone who's been going to meetings for a year. They have a sponsor who, 2 weeks ago, told them that they didn't need their anti-depressants. Told them to stop taking them - cold turkey. Told them that if they prayed hard enough, God would remove the need for them. ::) ::) ::) ::) The kid was trying to "do the right thing" and, unfortunately, followed their sponsor's advice. As any thinking person would expect, the poor kid ended up in a severe depression and called me because they were thinking about using. Thankfully, they're back on the medication but it will take a couple of weeks for it to take effect again. Who the fuck do Stepcrafters think they are that they can practice medicine without a license??
Anne being dishonest is exactly why many here have stopped reading your rubbish. Your a liar Anne. This story above, is something you are making up, so you can play too.
Very sad, Anne.
Nope Danny-boy... I know Anne and am friends... I can vouch for her...... but you won't belive me, or any other person who comes here...
Do us a favor and get on the dang topic if you want to participate... Plus this thread was going somewhere until people started derailing it... we were having a civil conversation with Max... Are you scared we might get through to him???
Peace and much healing
:peace:
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I spent the weekend with someone who's been going to meetings for a year. They have a sponsor who, 2 weeks ago, told them that they didn't need their anti-depressants. Told them to stop taking them - cold turkey. Told them that if they prayed hard enough, God would remove the need for them. ::) ::) ::) ::) The kid was trying to "do the right thing" and, unfortunately, followed their sponsor's advice. As any thinking person would expect, the poor kid ended up in a severe depression and called me because they were thinking about using. Thankfully, they're back on the medication but it will take a couple of weeks for it to take effect again. Who the fuck do Stepcrafters think they are that they can practice medicine without a license??
Anne being dishonest is exactly why many here have stopped reading your rubbish. Your a liar Anne. This story above, is something you are making up, so you can play too.
Very sad, Anne.
I see no apparent reason for you to cast doubt upon Anne's post about AA. Take a chill pill or some laxatives and calm down a little, DB. No need to shit yourself. Calling Anne a liar and calling her post rubbish only succeeds in making you look like a buffoon. Try backing off once in a while and practice treating people in a civil fashion, and it will come back around.
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Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010:
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The Orange papers may be true or they may be false, but its just one mans opinion. Its not based on fact. ...
What in the hell do you think that the AA Big Book or the NA Basic Test is... AA was written by Bill Wilson and the NA basic text was written by Jimmy K... So here we have it 2 guys writing his own opinion.
Man go back and troll your own thread... we are having an intelligent conversation with Max, we might have a chance to save him.... LOL
Peace and much healing
:peace:
BP, Jimmy K, was not really the one who wrote the Book for NA, the man who actually edited the Book (I'll give you his first name, Marty) did it.
Just like Bill and Bob did not actually write the book, Alcohol Anonymous, many folks and a editor had much participation.
Remember the first, "100".
BP get out of this conversation and take Anne with you. Neither of you are talking about the actual 12 steps and its principals. What in fact you are talking about are the people who attend AA/NA, how they perceive it and how they act it out.
Both of of you are very ignorant when it comes to AA/NA and are showing your asses. People are laughing at you. :rofl:
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I spent the weekend with someone who's been going to meetings for a year. They have a sponsor who, 2 weeks ago, told them that they didn't need their anti-depressants. Told them to stop taking them - cold turkey. Told them that if they prayed hard enough, God would remove the need for them. ::) ::) ::) ::) The kid was trying to "do the right thing" and, unfortunately, followed their sponsor's advice. As any thinking person would expect, the poor kid ended up in a severe depression and called me because they were thinking about using. Thankfully, they're back on the medication but it will take a couple of weeks for it to take effect again. Who the fuck do Stepcrafters think they are that they can practice medicine without a license??
Anne being dishonest is exactly why many here have stopped reading your rubbish. Your a liar Anne. This story above, is something you are making up, so you can play too.
Very sad, Anne.
I wish that were true. I really do. And it is sad. Extremely sad that this poor kid had to go thru a couple of weeks of sheer hell due to the sheer stupidity of they're sponsor.
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I spent the weekend with someone who's been going to meetings for a year. They have a sponsor who, 2 weeks ago, told them that they didn't need their anti-depressants. Told them to stop taking them - cold turkey. Told them that if they prayed hard enough, God would remove the need for them. ::) ::) ::) ::) The kid was trying to "do the right thing" and, unfortunately, followed their sponsor's advice. As any thinking person would expect, the poor kid ended up in a severe depression and called me because they were thinking about using. Thankfully, they're back on the medication but it will take a couple of weeks for it to take effect again. Who the fuck do Stepcrafters think they are that they can practice medicine without a license??
Anne being dishonest is exactly why many here have stopped reading your rubbish. Your a liar Anne. This story above, is something you are making up, so you can play too.
Very sad, Anne.
I see no apparent reason for you to cast doubt upon Anne's post about AA. Take a chill pill or some laxatives and calm down a little, DB. No need to shit yourself. Calling Anne a liar and calling her post rubbish only succeeds in making you look like a buffoon. Try backing off once in a while and practice treating people in a civil fashion, and it will come back around.
Frodie, you know damn well this is a lie. Why back her. OH, just by coincidence, when this topic hit the boards this weekend, she just so happens to be with a women in AA, who is willing to talk with her about her experiences.
NO, Frodie, this is the bullshit you folks need to stop with your buddies. This constant lying to peddle "YOUR SHIT" here.
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Readers.... Please disregard that display of immaturity from our friend Danny he has already resorted to taking a civil conversation and trying to disrupt the peaceful positive flow in which this topic was flowing.. My humble appology for his rude outbreak
Peace and much healing
:peace:
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The Orange papers may be true or they may be false, but its just one mans opinion. Its not based on fact. ...
What in the hell do you think that the AA Big Book or the NA Basic Test is... AA was written by Bill Wilson and the NA basic text was written by Jimmy K... So here we have it 2 guys writing his own opinion.
Man go back and troll your own thread... we are having an intelligent conversation with Max, we might have a chance to save him.... LOL
Peace and much healing
:peace:
BP, Jimmy K, was not really the one who wrote the Book for NA, the man who actually edited the Book (I'll give you his first name, Marty) did it.
Just like Bill and Bob did not actually write the book, Alcohol Anonymous, many folks and a editor had much participation.
Remember the first, "100".
BP get out of this conversation and take Anne with you. Neither of you are talking about the actual 12 steps and its principals. What in fact you are talking about are the people who attend AA/NA, how they perceive it and how they act it out.
Both of of you are very ignorant when it comes to AA/NA and are showing your asses. People are laughing at you. :rofl:
(http://http://thewareaglereader.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/opinion.jpg)
The Dude abides. ;)
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Frodie, you know damn well this is a lie. Why back her. OH, just by coincidence, when this topic hit the boards this weekend, she just so happens to be with a women in AA, who is willing to talk with her about her experiences.
NO, Frodie, this is the bullshit you folks need to stop with your buddies. This constant lying to peddle "YOUR SHIT" here.
No, I do not know that post was a lie any more than you do. I'm not "backing" anyone, I just call it like i see it. What I see you is you jumping her shit over a post that is more than likely true. Perhaps you ought to re-evaluate your mindset about AA. I'm afraid this is an example of you being defensive about it. I have nothing against AA per se (aside from the "steps" being a little too similar to the steps shoved down my throat), as I've had no experience with it personally (I hear others' experiences with it, some good and some bad.) I don't think anyone here is lying; I think you may have a hard time accepting truth.
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Danny if you continue your slanderous attacks on the posters here I will be forced to bring up the issue of your DD214 military papers. Your less than glowing military records could become fair game. We know you worship at the AA altar and that is OK, so please allow others to voice their opinions without being called liars by you.
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Frodie, you know damn well this is a lie. Why back her. OH, just by coincidence, when this topic hit the boards this weekend, she just so happens to be with a women in AA, who is willing to talk with her about her experiences.
NO, Frodie, this is the bullshit you folks need to stop with your buddies. This constant lying to peddle "YOUR SHIT" here.
No, I do not know that post was a lie any more than you do. I'm not "backing" anyone, I just call it like i see it. What I see you is you jumping her shit over a post that is more than likely true. Perhaps you ought to re-evaluate your mindset about AA. I'm afraid this is an example of you being defensive about it. I have nothing against AA per se (aside from the "steps" being a little too similar to the steps shoved down my throat), as I've had no experience with it personally (I hear others' experiences with it, some good and some bad.) I don't think anyone here is lying; I think you may have a hard time accepting truth.
"What I see you is you jumping her shit over a post that is more than likely true. Perhaps you ought to re-evaluate your mindset about AA. I'm afraid this is an example of you being defensive about it".
Frodie, say what you will, the girl is a liar. She knows this, you know it and everyone else knows it. This has nothing to do with being defensive about AA. (I don't even go, have not for a couple of years. I have said this several times)
What I want is credible stories but that is impossible here. Just like with Morgan, no one will hold there buddies accountable for anything here.
Hey you Straight folks hang, just remember when you hang together, you also fall together when the branch breaks.
f
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Danny if you continue your slanderous attacks on the posters here I will be forced to bring up the issue of your DD214 military papers. Your less than glowing military records could become fair game. We know you worship at the AA altar and that is OK, so please allow others to voice their opinions without being called liars by you.
Please bring it on would love to hear it.
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To everyone else....it really is sad and one of the (many) reasons I've got such a problem with AA. I've known this kid for a long time now and watched the struggles they've gone thru. Even though I've got my own feelings about AA (which are well known to them), I supported their decision to go wholeheartedly because it's what they felt they needed at the time. I was afraid this would happen, wrt meds, because I've seen it so often and sure enough...it did. It was not a fun weekend. Thank FSM, they're back on the meds now and they've fired the idiot/sponsor.
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Readers.... Please disregard that display of immaturity from our friend Danny he has already resorted to taking a civil conversation and trying to disrupt the peaceful positive flow in which this topic was flowing.. My humble appology for his rude outbreak
Peace and much healing
:peace:
Why because I called a spade a spade. What you are doing BP, is called trolling.
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Readers.... Please disregard that display of immaturity from our friend Danny he has already resorted to taking a civil conversation and trying to disrupt the peaceful positive flow in which this topic was flowing.. My humble appology for his rude outbreak
Peace and much healing
:peace:
It's too bad....it really was a fairly civilized conversation, for once, about the subject.
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To everyone else....it really is sad and one of the (many) reasons I've got such a problem with AA. I've known this kid for a long time now and watched the struggles they've gone thru. Even though I've got my own feelings about AA (which are well known to them), I supported their decision to go wholeheartedly because it's what they felt they needed at the time. I was afraid this would happen, wrt meds, because I've seen it so often and sure enough...it did. It was not a fun weekend. Thank FSM, they're back on the meds now and they've fired the idiot/sponsor.
Well if everyone else is listening which I am sure they are not, this whole story is a fabrication by Anne, to gain negative attention about AA. What is the best way to do this, come sauntering in with a tear jerk story with a negative ending, bashing AA.
Just could not stand by, this whole story smelled like last months milk.
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Readers.... Please disregard that display of immaturity from our friend Danny he has already resorted to taking a civil conversation and trying to disrupt the peaceful positive flow in which this topic was flowing.. My humble appology for his rude outbreak
Peace and much healing
:peace:
It's too bad....it really was a fairly civilized conversation, for once, about the subject.
According to who????? BP, Frodie, Whooterfish, Che and you.
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:rocker: :rocker: :rocker: :rocker: :rocker: - Spammy message - :rocker: :rocker: :rocker: :rocker: :rocker: ::OMG:: ::OMG:: :sue: :sue:
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Hey you Straight folks hang, just remember when you hang together, you also fall together when the branch breaks.
I hate derailing my topic any further but I must say you made a statement that almost was profound... Yes people who went through Straight are like survivors of a ship wreck and grateful to be alive and willing to give a hand to the next survivor and we morn the loss of our fallen.
Maybe that's what it is, you are jealous at how tight knit Straight survivors are and wish you too had that for your self.... Is that why you are so angry at us???
Peace and much healing
:peace:
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Hey you Straight folks hang, just remember when you hang together, you also fall together when the branch breaks.
I hate derailing my topic any further but I must say you made a statement that almost was profound... Yes people who went through Straight are like survivors of a ship wreck and grateful to be alive and willing to give a hand to the next survivor and we morn the loss of our fallen.
Maybe that's what it is, you are jealous at how tight knit Straight survivors are and wish you too had that for your self.... Is that why you are so angry at us???
Peace and much healing
:peace:
Dude without a doubt I probably hang with one of the largest concentrations of Straight folk there is. So please. (I have said this before). Know this, your views of AA is in the minority with most Straights I know. Most of us were drug addicts and Alcoholics, we know that AA/NA is helping folks, whether you stay with AA/NA is another story. The programs work to get folks sobered up and heading in the right direction.
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Frodie, say what you will, the girl is a liar. She knows this, you know it and everyone else knows it.
Not so. I do not know this, at all.
I think you are beginning to come unhinged lately, DB; I think you really could use a break from these forums...
:boycott:
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Frodie, say what you will, the girl is a liar. She knows this, you know it and everyone else knows it.
Not so. I do not know this, at all.
I think you are beginning to come unhinged lately, DB; I think you really could use a break from these forums...
Have a seat.
:rofl: :cheers:
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Re: Putting flyers on cars outside AA meetings?
DannyB II wrote:
Frodie, say what you will, the girl is a liar. She knows this, you know it and everyone else knows it.
Frodie wrote:
Not so. I do not know this, at all.
I think you are beginning to come unhinged lately, DB; I think you really could use a break from these forums...
Anne wrote:
Have a seat.
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Re: Putting flyers on cars outside AA meetings?
DannyB II wrote:
Frodie, say what you will, the girl is a liar. She knows this, you know it and everyone else knows it.
Frodie wrote:
Not so. I do not know this, at all.
I think you are beginning to come unhinged lately, DB; I think you really could use a break from these forums...
Anne wrote:
Have a seat.
No, Frod wrote that. Ask him.......I quoted it before he replaced it with :boycott:
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Re: Putting flyers on cars outside AA meetings?
DannyB II wrote:
Frodie, say what you will, the girl is a liar. She knows this, you know it and everyone else knows it.
Frodie wrote:
Not so. I do not know this, at all.
I think you are beginning to come unhinged lately, DB; I think you really could use a break from these forums...
Anne wrote:
Have a seat.
I think I will. sigh..... Your killing me Anne with this stuff you write. :rofl: :rofl:
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I think I will. sigh..... Your killing me Anne with this stuff you write. :rofl: :rofl:
G'head.....ask him.
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Frodie, say what you will, the girl is a liar. She knows this, you know it and everyone else knows it.
Not so. I do not know this, at all.
I think you are beginning to come unhinged lately, DB; I think you really could use a break from these forums...
Have a seat.
:rofl: :cheers:
Love ya Danny !!!!! :rofl:
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Danny, until you are ready to get honest with the group...please have a seat.
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I am sorry, yes! Luv Ya Danny!!!!
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I think I will. sigh..... Your killing me Anne with this stuff you write. :rofl: :rofl:
G'head.....ask him.
I was referring to the "have a seat" comment. I said, "I think I will". sigh.....
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I'm asking these in good faith, I'm not looking to turn this into a political battle about AA. I am just curious as how you perceive it, and the people that attend AA meetings.
For the benefit of Max...
Please start at the bottom of page 2 and read the post by Anne and myself, please just skip over postings from Danny and Who as these are mostly derailment off of the subject...
Peace and much healing
:peace:
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I don't mind the comparison between religion and AA, and another man's religion is often times considered a cult, if we don't believe in it ourselves. Christianity was considered a cult way back when, when it was in the minority belief. Like religion AA has a set of beliefs, and written documents that explain the ideology. Like churches, people are free to start their own AA chapters, and I would say it's less like Catholicism in this way, more like Protestant(?) or a less regulated form of Christianity, because there is no leader like a pope, and individual chapters, as far as I know, don't need permission to start. AA also is open to all types of people, because they have specific groups like gays, women, and all sorts of other groups. These other groups were created after AA because people wanted something similar for their own issues, and so they started it. AA, and the big book, has been like a seed that has yielded many different fruits, and so it seems to work for some people.
At times in history religion has been used to harm people, like religious terrorism and conquest and stuff like that. I think this is the same with abusive programs who usurp the AA ideology (because anybody is free to if they want) and twist it in such an extreme way, it doesn't represent the AA most people know outside of programs. I think the reason confession of sins is a part of so many religions, and what not, is because it helps people get past things and move on, and then improve themselves. When you feel hopelessly stuck in a self destructive pattern, finding a way to be reborn, whether through religion, or dropping all your friends and previous life, and adopting AA, I think is sometimes necessary.
I believe Anne Bonney when she says that some people in AA were reluctant to use psychiatric medications. I've been to meetings, the one I happened to go to was an old school all mens meeting, where people talked about how you shouldn't use medications. But then other people would stand up and say, I'm on it they help me. Some people would then argue, that you are not truly sober if you need to be medicated to be "normal". They really believe that if the person follows AA and takes it seriously, this will be enough. They believe that, because it worked for them, and they've probably seen AA help a lot of people. So if you believe you have a solution that could help someone, I don't think it's that strange to offer your advice.
People should be thoughtful when choosing a sponsor. There is no application form to AA, everybody in this world is not a saint, or all have the same opinions. I took anti depressants when in treatment, and I think they're bullshit. They didn't do anything, and they kept medication more and more until I was a zombie. I don't think that's the most positive way to get sober, and are you really sober if you are that medicated and can't deal with reality without the help of chemical intervention? Some AA meetings are more fundamentalist than others, they are all different, have different people and so if people want a loose AA meeting where you can smoke pot and still be considered sober, they exist. There are meetings for everyone, so many different types it's hard to condemn all of these various groups and people in them, with one fell swoop.
I think people have very individual experiences in AA, just like in programs. It depends on what meeting they went to, who happened to be there, who they choose as their sponsor, and a bunch of other random events. The sum of all these various possibilities will result in a truly unique experience for everybody. I believe the same is true for programs. So I think some people can have negative experience in AA, and go back to using based on the many random events that take place after they choose to get help at AA. I would hope they would give it another chance, at another meeting, but that's up to them. I had very positive experiences with AA, the people in it, and how good it is to have such a widespread, community run support system. Unlike rehab or asking government for help, you just show up. Nobody asks you to sign your name, or for an insurance card. It really is anonymous, and you can tell people things you might not be able to tell anybody in your life, and that can help sometimes. Because a lot of addicts/alcoholics suffer in silence, without telling anybody of what their true underground life is really like. Here is a group of other like minded people, who say, come share with us. We won't judge you, and will do our very best to help you. If you don't want it, you can leave when you want, and by the way it's free. I respect everybody's opinions here, I just want to share my own opinions about AA. Thanks for reading this.
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I don't mind the comparison between religion and AA, and another man's religion is often times considered a cult, if we don't believe in it ourselves. Christianity was considered a cult way back when, when it was in the minority belief. Like religion AA has a set of beliefs, and written documents that explain the ideology. Like churches, people are free to start their own AA chapters, and I would say it's less like Catholicism in this way, more like Protestant(?) or a less regulated form of Christianity, because there is no leader like a pope, and individual chapters, as far as I know, don't need permission to start. AA also is open to all types of people, because they have specific groups like gays, women, and all sorts of other groups. These other groups were created after AA because people wanted something similar for their own issues, and so they started it. AA, and the big book, has been like a seed that has yielded many different fruits, and so it seems to work for some people.
At times in history religion has been used to harm people, like religious terrorism and conquest and stuff like that. I think this is the same with abusive programs who usurp the AA ideology (because anybody is free to if they want) and twist it in such an extreme way, it doesn't represent the AA most people know outside of programs. I think the reason confession of sins is a part of so many religions, and what not, is because it helps people get past things and move on, and then improve themselves. When you feel hopelessly stuck in a self destructive pattern, finding a way to be reborn, whether through religion, or dropping all your friends and previous life, and adopting AA, I think is sometimes necessary.
I believe Anne Bonney when she says that some people in AA were reluctant to use psychiatric medications. I've been to meetings, the one I happened to go to was an old school all mens meeting, where people talked about how you shouldn't use medications. But then other people would stand up and say, I'm on it they help me. Some people would then argue, that you are not truly sober if you need to be medicated to be "normal". They really believe that if the person follows AA and takes it seriously, this will be enough. They believe that, because it worked for them, and they've probably seen AA help a lot of people. So if you believe you have a solution that could help someone, I don't think it's that strange to offer your advice.
People should be thoughtful when choosing a sponsor. There is no application form to AA, everybody in this world is not a saint, or all have the same opinions. I took anti depressants when in treatment, and I think they're bullshit. They didn't do anything, and they kept medication more and more until I was a zombie. I don't think that's the most positive way to get sober, and are you really sober if you are that medicated and can't deal with reality without the help of chemical intervention? Some AA meetings are more fundamentalist than others, they are all different, have different people and so if people want a loose AA meeting where you can smoke pot and still be considered sober, they exist. There are meetings for everyone, so many different types it's hard to condemn all of these various groups and people in them, with one fell swoop.
I think people have very individual experiences in AA, just like in programs. It depends on what meeting they went to, who happened to be there, who they choose as their sponsor, and a bunch of other random events. The sum of all these various possibilities will result in a truly unique experience for everybody. I believe the same is true for programs. So I think some people can have negative experience in AA, and go back to using based on the many random events that take place after they choose to get help at AA. I would hope they would give it another chance, at another meeting, but that's up to them. I had very positive experiences with AA, the people in it, and how good it is to have such a widespread, community run support system. Unlike rehab or asking government for help, you just show up. Nobody asks you to sign your name, or for an insurance card. It really is anonymous, and you can tell people things you might not be able to tell anybody in your life, and that can help sometimes. Because a lot of addicts/alcoholics suffer in silence, without telling anybody of what their true underground life is really like. Here is a group of other like minded people, who say, come share with us. We won't judge you, and will do our very best to help you. If you don't want it, you can leave when you want, and by the way it's free. I respect everybody's opinions here, I just want to share my own opinions about AA. Thanks for reading this.
Nice, piece of work Max. As I've always said if folks would take heed to some of your thoughts (including me) this site would be a better place for it.
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I believe Anne Bonney when she says that some people in AA were reluctant to use psychiatric medications. I've been to meetings, the one I happened to go to was an old school all mens meeting, where people talked about how you shouldn't use medications. But then other people would stand up and say, I'm on it they help me. Some people would then argue, that you are not truly sober if you need to be medicated to be "normal". They really believe that if the person follows AA and takes it seriously, this will be enough.
See not all people have the quick judgment to call Anne a liar.
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I believe Anne Bonney when she says that some people in AA were reluctant to use psychiatric medications. I've been to meetings, the one I happened to go to was an old school all mens meeting, where people talked about how you shouldn't use medications. But then other people would stand up and say, I'm on it they help me. Some people would then argue, that you are not truly sober if you need to be medicated to be "normal". They really believe that if the person follows AA and takes it seriously, this will be enough.
See not all people have the quick judgment to call Anne a liar.
Read what he is saying, BP. What I am questioning and what he is saying is very different.
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Max, you're thoughts and response are greatly appreciated and I can understand how you see it that way. We just happen to disagree on certain points. My problem really isn't with the people in AA...quite the contrary - more the big book and 12 & 12 and Bill Wilson. He was an attention freak (was pissed off whenever he went to meetings and wasn't recognized or acknowledged) with a guru complex, IMO (like Newton). He also came to his "spiritual awakening" under the influence of withdrawal and Bella Donna....hell who WOULDN'T have some kind of an awakening using that stuff?! He is still revered to this day as a quasi-savior.
As I've said, I have no problem with like minded people getting together to support each other in a common goal. I do have a problem with the literature and the sponsors. They're treated like semi-gods and their word is gold. I believe that is dangerous, as they have no qualifications to diagnose anyone or recommend anything medical. Support is one thing, trying to get someone to follow your brand of religion/dogma is quite another.
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Max, you're thoughts and response are greatly appreciated and I can understand how you see it that way. We just happen to disagree on certain points. My problem really isn't with the people in AA...quite the contrary - more the big book and 12 & 12 and Bill Wilson. He was an attention freak (was pissed off whenever he went to meetings and wasn't recognized or acknowledged) with a guru complex, IMO (like Newton). He also came to his "spiritual awakening" under the influence of withdrawal and Bella Donna....hell who WOULDN'T have some kind of an awakening using that stuff?! He is still revered to this day as a quasi-savior.
As I've said, I have no problem with like minded people getting together to support each other in a common goal. I do have a problem with the literature and the sponsors. They're treated like semi-gods and their word is gold. I believe that is dangerous, as they have no qualifications to diagnose anyone or recommend anything medical. Support is one thing, trying to get someone to follow your brand of religion/dogma is quite another.
You like that word "Dogma" don't you... another word for our arsenal... :seg:
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Max, you're thoughts and response are greatly appreciated and I can understand how you see it that way. We just happen to disagree on certain points. My problem really isn't with the people in AA...quite the contrary - more the big book and 12 & 12 and Bill Wilson. He was an attention freak (was pissed off whenever he went to meetings and wasn't recognized or acknowledged) with a guru complex, IMO (like Newton). He also came to his "spiritual awakening" under the influence of withdrawal and Bella Donna....hell who WOULDN'T have some kind of an awakening using that stuff?! He is still revered to this day as a quasi-savior.
As I've said, I have no problem with like minded people getting together to support each other in a common goal. I do have a problem with the literature and the sponsors. They're treated like semi-gods and their word is gold. I believe that is dangerous, as they have no qualifications to diagnose anyone or recommend anything medical. Support is one thing, trying to get someone to follow your brand of religion/dogma is quite another.
You like that word "Dogma" don't you... another word for our arsenal... :seg:
Hey, if the shoe fits.... :)
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Max, you're thoughts and response are greatly appreciated and I can understand how you see it that way. We just happen to disagree on certain points. My problem really isn't with the people in AA...quite the contrary - more the big book and 12 & 12 and Bill Wilson. He was an attention freak (was pissed off whenever he went to meetings and wasn't recognized or acknowledged) with a guru complex, IMO (like Newton). He also came to his "spiritual awakening" under the influence of withdrawal and Bella Donna....hell who WOULDN'T have some kind of an awakening using that stuff?! He is still revered to this day as a quasi-savior.
As I've said, I have no problem with like minded people getting together to support each other in a common goal. I do have a problem with the literature and the sponsors. They're treated like semi-gods and their word is gold. I believe that is dangerous, as they have no qualifications to diagnose anyone or recommend anything medical. Support is one thing, trying to get someone to follow your brand of religion/dogma is quite another.
You like that word "Dogma" don't you... another word for our arsenal... :seg:
Hey, if the shoe fits.... :)
Like I said before, "If it quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, must be a duck." :seg:
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:karma:
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Max, you're thoughts and response are greatly appreciated and I can understand how you see it that way. We just happen to disagree on certain points. My problem really isn't with the people in AA...quite the contrary - more the big book and 12 & 12 and Bill Wilson. He was an attention freak (was pissed off whenever he went to meetings and wasn't recognized or acknowledged) with a guru complex, IMO (like Newton). He also came to his "spiritual awakening" under the influence of withdrawal and Bella Donna....hell who WOULDN'T have some kind of an awakening using that stuff?! He is still revered to this day as a quasi-savior.
As I've said, I have no problem with like minded people getting together to support each other in a common goal. I do have a problem with the literature and the sponsors. They're treated like semi-gods and their word is gold. I believe that is dangerous, as they have no qualifications to diagnose anyone or recommend anything medical. Support is one thing, trying to get someone to follow your brand of religion/dogma is quite another.
Yes Max does write very eloquently, he knows how to capture his points and enlightens you to follow. His accounts of AA are accurate and educational.
(http://williamborchert.com/index.html (http://williamborchert.com/index.html)) / lois wison autobiography.
Anne, I feel sad to know that your first introduction to AA, had to be at the hands of Straight, your next was at a meeting obviously run by far right wing cultist members who were egotistical maniacs hell bent on discrediting Bill Wilson. I am not sure when you were introduced to the books (which really does not matter) but this completed your indoctrination.
The AA you are referring to here, your right does exist I am not proud to say this, I am also not proud to say that members of AA have committed murders, rapes, molestations, kidnapping, tax evasion, self mutilation, suicides, grand larcenies, felonies, misdemeanors, they have also done, I am proud to say marriages, conceived children, gotten jobs, became lawyers, doctors, judges, president of companies, bought companies, walk daughters down the isle, became grandparents and on and on.
My point AA represents America through n' through. We are not a program with LGAT's, peer pressure, breaking a person down, ridiculing and demeaning someone. All steps are suggestive in nature, all sponsoring is suggestive in nature. No one does any thing they do not want to do. Our doors are voluntarily open to everyone, all are welcome.
Anne, as I said above people make up AA and since AA does not govern or dictate what there groups will do or not do, you will see variations of AA being practiced. This is why it is great that we have so many meeting. If you don't like one find another.
About A.A.
Alcoholics Anonymous is a fellowship of men and women who share their experience, strength and hope with each other that they may solve their common problem and help others to recover from alcoholism. The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking. There are no dues or fees for AA membership; we are self-supporting through our own contributions. AA is not allied with any sect, denomination, politics, organization or institution; does not wish to engage in any controversy, neither endorses nor opposes any causes. Our primary purpose is to stay sober and help other alcoholics to achieve sobriety.
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:cheers:
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:eek:
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:peace:
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:bump:
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Yes Max does write very eloquently, he knows how to capture his points and enlightens you to follow. His accounts of AA are accurate and educational.
(http://williamborchert.com/index.html (http://williamborchert.com/index.html)) / lois wison autobiography.
Lois Wilson's "autobiography" was actually written by Bill himself.
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-fun ... ality.html (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-funny_spirituality.html)
Speaking of nutty attitudes about father's new sobriety, the Big Book chapter "To Wives" also contains a couple of real jewels. Bill wrote that absurd chapter himself (or possibly with some help from Joe Worth), in spite of the conceit that it was written by the women:
As wives of Alcoholics Anonymous, we would like you to feel that we understand as perhaps few can. We want to analyze mistakes we have made.
The Big Book, 3rd Edition, William G. Wilson, page 104.
That's deceptive, to say the least. No matter how much the wives may have understood, and no matter how much "they would like you to feel" that they understand as perhaps few can, the truth is that the "wives of Alcoholics Anonymous" did not write a single word of that chapter. Bill Wilson asked Dr. Bob's wife Anne to write it, but she declined. Lois Wilson wanted to write it, and she also wanted to write the following chapter, The Family Afterwards, but Bill didn't trust her to get the "style" right, he said. That is an indication of Bill's real opinion of his wife's intellect. Bill Wilson wrote those chapters himself while pretending to be his own wife, and putting his words into her mouth. That hurt Lois' feelings, but that was just the way it was going to be.
Bill would not let even Lois, who was dying to do so, write the chapter titled "To Wives." After all, she was the wife who had endured Bill's drunken years and the houseful of alcoholics he was trying to wrestle into sobriety. "I have never known why he didn't want me to write about the wives, and it hurt me at first," she said.
Getting Better Inside Alcoholics Anonymous, Nan Robertson, pages 70-71.
Bill Wilson constantly hurt Lois Wilson, both before and after sobriety, what with his screaming temper tantrums, arrogant, inconsiderate behavior, philandering, and demanding that she work to support him. One evening, Lois Wilson exploded in anger when Bill Wilson wanted her to go to yet another Alcoholics Anonymous meeting. She screamed, "Damn your old meetings!" and threw a shoe at him.26 Lois Wilson's attitude was simply not acceptable to Bill Wilson. He couldn't have that. So Bill made up an explanation for Lois's anger where he had the imaginary wives saying:
Another feeling we are very likely to entertain is one of resentment that love and loyalty could not cure our husbands of alcoholism. We do not like the thought that the contents of a book or the work of another alcoholic has accomplished in a few weeks that for which we struggled for years.
The A.A. Big Book, William G. Wilson, present in all editions of the book, from the 1939 multilithed manuscript through the 4th Edition, on page 118.
Anne, I feel sad to know that your first introduction to AA, had to be at the hands of Straight, your next was at a meeting obviously run by far right wing cultist members who were egotistical maniacs hell bent on discrediting Bill Wilson.
You're making an awful lot of untrue assumptions there DannyBoi. Bill does a fine job of discrediting himself.
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-fun ... ality.html (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-funny_spirituality.html)
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-oth ... r_tantrums (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-otherwomen.html#temper_tantrums)
I am not sure when you were introduced to the books (which really does not matter) but this completed your indoctrination.
Yes, my indoctrination INTO AA.
My point AA represents America through n' through. We are not a program with LGAT's, peer pressure, breaking a person down, ridiculing and demeaning someone.
Oh yes it does...it's just a more subtle form. And "we"? Are you speaking for all of AA?
All steps are suggestive in nature, all sponsoring is suggestive in nature.
AA cofounder Bill Wilson wrote that, “unless each AA member follows to the best of his ability our suggested Twelve Steps of recovery, he almost certainly signs his own death warrant . . . We must obey certain principles or we die.” [/b]
Anne, as I said above people make up AA and since AA does not govern or dictate what there groups will do or not do, you will see variations of AA being practiced. This is why it is great that we have so many meeting. If you don't like one find another.
You seem to assume that I have limited experience with AA. Nothing could be further from the truth and the majority of meetings I've been to (waaaaayyyy too many to count) do dictate and govern how people should live.
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Yes Max does write very eloquently, he knows how to capture his points and enlightens you to follow. His accounts of AA are accurate and educational.
(http://williamborchert.com/index.html (http://williamborchert.com/index.html)) / lois wison autobiography.
Lois Wilson's "autobiography" was actually written by Bill himself.
No, Anne it was not. Bill died in 1971, Lois died 17 years later in 1988 (year I got sober). William G. Borchert, actually wanted no influence by Bill at all.
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-fun ... ality.html (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-funny_spirituality.html)
Speaking of nutty attitudes about father's new sobriety, the Big Book chapter "To Wives" also contains a couple of real jewels. Bill wrote that absurd chapter himself (or possibly with some help from Joe Worth), in spite of the conceit that it was written by the women:
As wives of Alcoholics Anonymous, we would like you to feel that we understand as perhaps few can. We want to analyze mistakes we have made.
The Big Book, 3rd Edition, William G. Wilson, page 104.
That's deceptive, to say the least. No matter how much the wives may have understood, and no matter how much "they would like you to feel" that they understand as perhaps few can, the truth is that the "wives of Alcoholics Anonymous" did not write a single word of that chapter. Bill Wilson asked Dr. Bob's wife Anne to write it, but she declined. Lois Wilson wanted to write it, and she also wanted to write the following chapter, The Family Afterwards, but Bill didn't trust her to get the "style" right, he said. That is an indication of Bill's real opinion of his wife's intellect. Bill Wilson wrote those chapters himself while pretending to be his own wife, and putting his words into her mouth. That hurt Lois' feelings, but that was just the way it was going to be.
No Anne, you are wrong again. Dr.Bob Smith, Ebby, Lois, Anne and 100 others all had participation in writing the Big Book. The only book Bill actually wrote by himself (per say) was the Twelve and Twelve.
Bill would not let even Lois, who was dying to do so, write the chapter titled "To Wives." After all, she was the wife who had endured Bill's drunken years and the houseful of alcoholics he was trying to wrestle into sobriety. "I have never known why he didn't want me to write about the wives, and it hurt me at first," she said.
Getting Better Inside Alcoholics Anonymous, Nan Robertson, pages 70-71.
This is where you are wrong again, Bill and Bob leaned heavily on Lois, Anne and the few women who became members. Lois was a strong advocate of the language used in the Book. She then went on and used the same language when she started AL-Anon. We have to remember this was the 1930's.
I am not saying I agree with everything in the Book but I would like AA, represented accurately.
Bill Wilson constantly hurt Lois Wilson, both before and after sobriety, what with his screaming temper tantrums, arrogant, inconsiderate behavior, philandering, and demanding that she work to support him. One evening, Lois Wilson exploded in anger when Bill Wilson wanted her to go to yet another Alcoholics Anonymous meeting. She screamed, "Damn your old meetings!" and threw a shoe at him.26 Lois Wilson's attitude was simply not acceptable to Bill Wilson. He couldn't have that. So Bill made up an explanation for Lois's anger where he had the imaginary wives saying:
Not only did Bill hurt Lois he totally humiliated her with his "last will and testament".
He gave his mistress of 20 years 5% of his royalties. This was read to Lois by the estate attorney with no forwarning.
Another feeling we are very likely to entertain is one of resentment that love and loyalty could not cure our husbands of alcoholism. We do not like the thought that the contents of a book or the work of another alcoholic has accomplished in a few weeks that for which we struggled for years.
The A.A. Big Book, William G. Wilson, present in all editions of the book, from the 1939 multilithed manuscript through the 4th Edition, on page 118.
Anne, I feel sad to know that your first introduction to AA, had to be at the hands of Straight, your next was at a meeting obviously run by far right wing cultist members who were egotistical maniacs hell bent on discrediting Bill Wilson.
You're making an awful lot of untrue assumptions there DannyBoi. Bill does a fine job of discrediting himself.
Nope, Bill, does not discredit himself at all, Anne. Bill Wilson was just being Bill W. How many people have done what this man managed to do, not many. Well, when you have accomplished something phenomenal as Bill had done the notoriety follows. Everybody wants to know you and knit pick you.
Bill was a down and out drunk with a shit load of shortcomings in the 1930's trying to find a way to get sober himself and help others. Wall Street clerk with no knowledge of helping folks, creates and a dynasty. Anne, you know perfectly well, "men" will tear down any and all societies eventually.
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-fun ... ality.html (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-funny_spirituality.html)
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-oth ... r_tantrums (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-otherwomen.html#temper_tantrums)
I am not sure when you were introduced to the books (which really does not matter) but this completed your indoctrination.
Yes, my indoctrination INTO AA.
Nope, wrong again. Not into AA, you were never "in". Outside on the periphery yes, but to scared (with good reason) to join up.
My point AA represents America through n' through. We are not a program with LGAT's, peer pressure, breaking a person down, ridiculing and demeaning someone.
Oh yes it does...it's just a more subtle form. And "we"? Are you speaking for all of AA?
Now, that would not be smart. No sadly I can not.
All steps are suggestive in nature, all sponsoring is suggestive in nature.
AA cofounder Bill Wilson wrote that, “unless each AA member follows to the best of his ability our suggested Twelve Steps of recovery, he almost certainly signs his own death warrant . . . We must obey certain principles or we die.” [/b]
Anne here is a perfect example of how I know you were never "in" AA. Every healthy person has principles, without them you (ANNE) would die. Everyone "in" AA understands that sentence. Bill was making his point. Being a alcoholic myself, if I don't live by a set of principles when it comes to alcohol, I will die. Why??? Because when I drink, I drink irresponsibly.
Now, lets talk about life having principles and not having them. Which one would you choose Anne. Right, you would choose the life you have right now, with healthy principles.
Anne, as I said above people make up AA and since AA does not govern or dictate what there groups will do or not do, you will see variations of AA being practiced. This is why it is great that we have so many meeting. If you don't like one find another.
You seem to assume that I have limited experience with AA. Nothing could be further from the truth and the majority of meetings I've been to (waaaaayyyy too many to count) do dictate and govern how people should live.
Anne, I hate saying this but your opinions show you have not been to really any meeting at all and the ones you did go to you were not paying attention. Most of your knowledge/opinions is straight from the Orange Papers, com'on give me a break. I am speaking from direct experience and your rebuttals are coming from a man that was disgruntled by AA.
Anyways who cares.
Frodie may be right.....:(
Anne lets prove him wrong, we can debate this topic without name calling.
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In order to debate you have to at the very minimum try to discredit her sources by providing some of your own. You haven't done anything other than provide vague anecdotal information that at best was collected over the years via gossip and story telling.
Anne is well ahead in this debate given your prime tactic seems to be sticking your fingers in your ears and screaming liar liar at the top of your lungs.
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Anne is well ahead in this debate given your prime tactic seems to be sticking your fingers in your ears and screaming liar liar at the top of your lungs.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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Anne is well ahead in this debate given your prime tactic seems to be sticking your fingers in your ears and screaming liar liar at the top of your lungs.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Hey Anne... We need to plan a get together and have a few beers on your boat... Will be cool to hang with ya.. :cheers:
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In order to debate you have to at the very minimum try to discredit her sources by providing some of your own. You haven't done anything other than provide vague anecdotal information that at best was collected over the years via gossip and story telling.
Anne is well ahead in this debate given your prime tactic seems to be sticking your fingers in your ears and screaming liar liar at the top of your lungs.
Oh. I'm sorry I did not know that the OJ papers were an authority on the subject of AA. Next, as soon as someone with merit shows up, I'll be all in. Last Che, AA is all anecdotal, that is what makes it so unique.
We are not professionals but we have members that are professionals, there is no authority but we have structure and no one is in charge but God, as we understand him.
Ya know what sad, Che, if Anne would stop being dishonest I would not have to say it. This goes for many here including yourself, with your self righteous comments the past few days.
Dude you have multiple personalities, do you know that.
Most here that have been blabbering on the last few days know that there opinions lack integrity yet they still post, they are resentful. Everyone of them came from Straight, Jeesh go figure.
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Thank you for confessing that AA really is all bullshit.
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In order to debate you have to at the very minimum try to discredit her sources by providing some of your own. You haven't done anything other than provide vague anecdotal information that at best was collected over the years via gossip and story telling.
Anne is well ahead in this debate given your prime tactic seems to be sticking your fingers in your ears and screaming liar liar at the top of your lungs.
Oh. I'm sorry I did not know that the OJ papers were an authority on the subject of AA. Next, as soon as someone with merit shows up, I'll be all in. Last Che, AA is all anecdotal(bullshit-fixed it for you), that is what makes it so unique.
We are not professionals but we have members that are professionals, there is no authority but we have structure and no one is in charge but God, as we understand him.
Can you cite a source that discredits the Orange papers? You are the one who has the burden of providing a merit worthy source to discredit the Orange Papers, you haven't done this yet, and I doubt you will due to your fixation with anecdotal twaddle. And again, thank your for admitting AA really is all bullshit.
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Thank you for confessing that AA really is all bullshit.
That would be your perception, in your controlled life. Must have total control, I need studies, peer reviews, peer study groups, more college, peer support labs, more studying, professor am I doing life right.
I hope your happy, dude.
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In order to debate you have to at the very minimum try to discredit her sources by providing some of your own. You haven't done anything other than provide vague anecdotal information that at best was collected over the years via gossip and story telling.
Anne is well ahead in this debate given your prime tactic seems to be sticking your fingers in your ears and screaming liar liar at the top of your lungs.
Oh. I'm sorry I did not know that the OJ papers were an authority on the subject of AA. Next, as soon as someone with merit shows up, I'll be all in. Last Che, AA is all anecdotal(bullshit-fixed it for you), that is what makes it so unique.
We are not professionals but we have members that are professionals, there is no authority but we have structure and no one is in charge but God, as we understand him.
Can you cite a source that discredits the Orange papers? You are the one who has the burden of providing a merit worthy source to discredit the Orange Papers, you haven't done this yet, and I doubt you will due to your fixation with anecdotal twaddle. And again, thank your for admitting AA really is all bullshit.
I have the burden of proof.... :roflmao: :roflmao: Your a joke. Che your scrounging in dumpsters. Keep digging.
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Rubble rubble rubble rubble
Hey Danny I am sure that a few of us could chip in and buy you a few beers.... :cheers: :seg:
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Rubble rubble rubble rubble
Hey Danny I am sure that a few of us could chip in and buy you a few beers.... :cheers: :seg:
That would be cool, where and when.
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AA meeting tonight up the road from my house... Don't have the new flier perfected yet, so I am going to have to use one of my earlier drafts... New area new people to save.... Hell I just need to go on a newcomer rescue mission !!!! :seg:
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In order to debate you have to at the very minimum try to discredit her sources by providing some of your own. You haven't done anything other than provide vague anecdotal information that at best was collected over the years via gossip and story telling.
Anne is well ahead in this debate given your prime tactic seems to be sticking your fingers in your ears and screaming liar liar at the top of your lungs.
Oh. I'm sorry I did not know that the OJ papers were an authority on the subject of AA. Next, as soon as someone with merit shows up, I'll be all in. Last Che, AA is all anecdotal(bullshit-fixed it for you), that is what makes it so unique.
We are not professionals but we have members that are professionals, there is no authority but we have structure and no one is in charge but God, as we understand him.
Can you cite a source that discredits the Orange papers? You are the one who has the burden of providing a merit worthy source to discredit the Orange Papers, you haven't done this yet, and I doubt you will due to your fixation with anecdotal twaddle. And again, thank your for admitting AA really is all bullshit.
Yup....and AO cites sources for what he's saying. Danny just dismisses them because they run contrary to what he's been led to believe.
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Anne, I hate saying this but your opinions show you have not been to really any meeting at all and the ones you did go to you were not paying attention. Most of your knowledge/opinions is straight from the Orange Papers, com'on give me a break. I am speaking from direct experience and your rebuttals are coming from a man that was disgruntled by AA.
Anyways who cares.
There you go with your assumptions again. Just because I disagree with your opinion of AA I MUST be lying. I'm not. I've been to countless meetings, even had several sponsors (one of whom I keep in touch with because she doesn't buy into the dogma and really does just use it as a support group) You tell me that I'm speaking solely from what I've read in the Orange Papers and that's an assumption on your part and complete bullshit. I read what he's written and then go to his sources to confirm what he's saying is true AND, as I've said, I've gone to a ton of meetings. The longest stretch was 3 years of weekly meetings. What prompted me to seek out information about AA and eventually find AO was what I experienced in the rooms (i.e. stopping the meds, divorcing spouses etc.) It struck me as such dogma (there's that word again) and reminded me of what Straight did in a much more forceful manner. You, OTOH, only talk about your experiences and cite nothing to back them up. The reason there aren't many (if any) studies about AA is that they won't allow any clinical, longitudinal, peer reviewed studies because they know they'd be blown out of the water.
Yes, AA can be helpful to some people as a support group only. To follow the literature, written by a certifiable lunatic, is lunacy itself.
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Yup....and AO cites sources for what he's saying. Danny just dismisses them because they run contrary to what he's been led to believe.
Prime example of how AA cult like group think can destroy a persons rational thought process... "Have no independent thought, Normies are dangerous to our way way of thinking..."
PS...I saw a bumper sticker on a car at an AA meeting that read "Normal People Scare Me" :rofl: :rofl:
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Making my tin foil hat so their "Cult Like" ( Thanks Psy for clearing the terminology up for me ) group think can not penetrate my brain while I am passing out fliers...
Damn aliens with their mind probing techniques... :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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PS...I saw a bumper sticker on a car at an AA meeting that read "Normal People Scare Me" :rofl: :rofl:
Yup...I said before that in quite a few meetings I heard "I feel sorry for the 'normies' (people who don't have a drinking or drug problem) because they're not fortunate enough to have the "tools for life" that 'we' (Stepcrafters) do.
:eek: :jawdrop: