Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Awake on July 13, 2010, 01:16:34 PM
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Civil discussion about the Troubled Teen Industry
Weird huh? I just thought I’d see how it goes.
This thread is for holding discussions about the Troubled Teen Industry in a CIVIL manner, please only participate if you are willing to do so.
I’ll offer my thoughts …. There are too few standards in the industry to ethically justify it’s operation.
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I think one of my concerns is that a Program can say anything. Mine said the academic were solid, the accreditation was solid, the therapy was individualized, and that they promoted effective communication... the brochures looked promising... but were not only misleading, but false. It's not even a matter of subjective thinking. It was fraud.
Programs can cross the t's and dot the i's but still be therapeutically abusive. (Do everything right on paper to avoid scrutiny.)
Another issue is that teens simply don't have any credibility once they are labeled "troubled teen." They are not allowed to be critical consumers of their own care. And many places are more concerned with compliance and suppression than respect. Thus, how can teens advocate for themselves once placed? If they complain, the program will simply tell the parents the teen is manipulating them, and the parents end up doubting their child more than before.
These are my problems with "programs." There is no way to really ascertain how it respects the child as an individual. Also - I'm not afan of criminalizing youths and making them feel they are "bad" order to get them to "go straight." Even though there our tours and visits, I know firsthand how parents were manipulated and given phony experentials, and I also know how older students leading the tours promoted the program under pretenses. Everyone jokes about it now - some even feel bad about misleading prospects, but unless you wanted to be beaten down, you complied.
Had I never been in a program, I too might look at the brochures convinced this place has genuine intentions. Or I might not realize, however genuine the intentions are, theory and practice are often contradictory. Destructively so. That is why I am such a skeptic on a unilateral level.
There was a poster named Son of Serbia who went to CEDU. He did talk about a school (not a program) that worked very well for him after CEDU. But it wasn't a program - nor was it based on punitive, insular, or synanon practices. It was a real school geared for kids who think differetly, based on respect. It didn't tear apart families etc. and it in no way resembled a program. (Serb is extremely independent minded and a staunch opponent of a program like CEDU. I wish I remembered the school. It was in Vermont.)
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I certainly agree that ‘Troubled Teen’ is a very ambiguous term yet its wide use effectively discredits the person that is labelled. This ability to overpower someone by labelling them seems to work because defiance of it further brands the victim. To deny the label you have to ‘not be troubled’ but the teen is denied the ability to apply his own definition, and so there is no option but to play into the others definition of him as ‘out of control of himself’. In this way I think this lack of definition represents a lack of ethics necessary to justify operating under this label, as it is the catalyst for further mislabelling such as ‘withdrawn’ , ‘defensive’ or any number of labels that will incur a prescription for the behaviour, all under the falsity of being stamped, ‘Troubled Teen’.
I also think there is a lack of definition in what can be prosecuted as abuse in the TTI. Many times I hear that arguments concerning abuse need to concern themselves with overt situations, like violence, physically harmful situations, risk of death, sexual molestation, and other very obvious abuses. But causing psychological harm can easily occur in the TTI very covertly. Anyone that is forced into therapy is going to be resistant of it, and so the general expectation of the ‘troubled ‘teen’ is that he will not be ‘accepting’ therapy as ‘help’. So a staff can act openly benevolent and outwardly helpful to assist in ‘helping’ and have it serve as a covert attack on the child that cannot be deflected, this could be intentional or proper staff conduct as suggested by the program. This is far worse than name calling because you can’t defend against it, you must play along. I think the illusion is that you learn to be sensitive to the reality of the staff, as they are the directors of the system, but your punishments and rewards are judged against how you act in the system. It is in this way that the staff can always hide behind the system as the punishing agent and deny the reality of the interpersonal relationship.
Even more generally, as this system is working, even the most positive intent and fair practices constitute a potential for harm by lack of definition and misdiagnosis.
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I think the strength of the industry is providing a new setting for a child who is not doing well in their present setting and not responding to local services. Without Therapeutic Boarding schools there would be no alternative for parents to turn to.
In the past troubled teens were met with strict remediation and now we are seeing that kids respond much better to education and a change in peer group in a highly structured enviornment. They don’t stress competition and focus on getting the child to succeed so as to fuel their emotional growth. This is almost impossible to do if the child is living at home in a toxic environment and seeing a counselor once a week. The key to success is that the child needs to buy into the placement and wants to get help, otherwise they may not embrace the therapy or self help exercises that are available. The kids need to do the work themselves, the staff is only there to assist them and help them stay on track.
The argument that the child should be kept at home at all costs is weak at best especially if the child is not thriving and clearly heading in a dangerous direction. I think a quick look at the tally of 1,200 to 1,500 children who take their own lives each year along with the thousands of others who take to the streets lacking an education and survival skills. Intervention would have clearly benefitted the majority of these children.
If I could see a gaping hole I would say that parents can just chose to send their children away even if the child doesn’t need help or the program is not a good fit. In this area I think regulation would help if there was a requirement that a third party sign off on all placements by a doctor, school counselor etc.
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I think there is the potential for programs to be beneficial, but as it stands today there is not enough protection in place to make it safe. If they have not developed their practice enough to account for the types of harm inherent in the operation, should they be doing it?
One expectations that we need to remove is that success depends on the child ‘wanting’ it, or blaming failure on the attitude of the child. This blames the child for something he can’t control if it forces him to deny things he knows to be true of himself. If the end result is failure, the program needs to take responsibility for it.
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There was a poster named Son of Serbia who went to CEDU. He did talk about a school (not a program) that worked very well for him after CEDU. But it wasn't a program - nor was it based on punitive, insular, or synanon practices. It was a real school geared for kids who think differetly, based on respect. It didn't tear apart families etc. and it in no way resembled a program. (Serb is extremely independent minded and a staunch opponent of a program like CEDU. I wish I remembered the school. It was in Vermont.)
It's called Rock Point School (http://http://www.rockpoint.org/). Son of Serbia mentioned it here (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=6589&p=61635#p61635), here (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=12344&p=142461#p142461), and here (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=23636&p=299243#p299243) (and, in some cases, a subsequent post in addition to noted link).
I am aware of this place 'cuz there is a negative review (http://http://www.strugglingteens.com/news/lettertoeditor/reamersiegel041107.html) of Hyde School on Lon's site, written by a couple who pulled their daughter from Hyde. They subsequently enrolled her at Rock Point School, and ended up also submitting a positive review (http://http://www.strugglingteens.com/news/lettertoeditor/reamersiegel050204.html) for the latter.
As a qualifying comment on the latter, I should add that it doesn't sound like their daughter had yet completed the year ... at the time that said positive review was written, although I might be interpreting that incorrectly. I think the parents were just sooooo happy that Rock Point wasn't as punitively based, coercive, and dishonest as Hyde was, and felt compelled to point out that difference!
It's also mentioned on the Hyde forum a few times: here (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=12273&p=141826#p141826), and here (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=12843&p=152015#p152015), and some other conversation that I can't find right now.
Although I'm not really in a position to judge, I would say it's a bit of a concern to me that Lon Woodbury apparently thinks so highly of them. Just sayin' ... as a word of caution.
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I'm not too concerned that woodbury wrote it up positively. I don't trust him at all based on his past alliances, but even a total schmuck hits a bull's eye every now and again. What I like about RPS is it doesn't stifle individual expression and does not use lifespring experentials or abusive group raps. It doesn't appear to rely on therapeutic coersion at all. It is not a TBS.
Also, Serb is oppositional, opinionated, and discretionary in his endorsements, and I trust his judgment.
I think key for me besides proper accreditation and transparency is no EST, Lifespring, Stepcraft or Synanon type expernetials, and I'm not big on "rap" therapy, which is one big anxiety inducing clusterfuck of dysfunction. I also think if a kid needs therapy it shoudl be discretonary, third party, and voluntary. But truthfully, I think good therapists are in short supply, and much can be acomplished by modeling, rewards, and respecting the individual.
Any school that restricts contact with family is a no-go.
I eventually went to an alternative private school as well that was staffed by college professors (a day school). I wish more students could afford this - it valued mutual respect and intellectual curiosity over compliance. I ended up getting into 2nd tier schools and one Ivy. Not that it matters.
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I definitely understand that we need to eliminate the Lifespring, Est, Synanon etc type elements, but it seems difficult to measure them enough to create an ethical standard for protecting against their techniques. Simple modifications to them can make it so they can’t be considered related. I think it would be worth breaking down the organizations tactics and defining which of those techniques are abusive, or abusive in conjunction. Then it might be possible to put preventative measures in place.
I think any program that uses group therapy has the potential to carry elements of those organizations and coerce interaction, and more, a group therapy situation that is unmonitored or not mediated correctly is likely to result in ‘therapeutic’ interaction that perpetuates falsities and misperceptions of one another.
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I like where this is going, I think I'm reading that there is a need for treatment and a specialized school/program for some of these children in need. I have always been disillusioned by the idealism here that no child ever needed special assistance, that staying home and using local therapeutic remedies would be the optimum solution. Well this is not only wrong but reckless for the child and the family, there are certain behaviors if left alone without treatment or basic care that only grow worse, these mental/emotional issues are inherent with the child, ei: 1)born with- bi-poplar, severe personality disorder, ect.... 2) developed do to family dysfunction- incest, drug addicted parents, violence within family or parents/guardian suffering from mental issues themselves which are untreated, or their parents just don't give a shit have a lot of money and want someone else to deal with problem.
@ Samara you talked about Son Of Serbia, going to this special school after he left treatment, well then there was still a need for Serbia to receive a type of assistance/treatment to deal with a out of character problem. Out of character to normal social settings for teens ei: public schools, catholic schools, regular private schools.
Why is it difficult for us to accept we may have been different at the time, (not that it is wrong and we need to be punished for it)that we had issues that compromised our existence in the home and at school. That we may not of had the social skills needed to adapt to life at that time. (ya know sometimes we have to be careful when we analyze are condition at 14-15-16 yrs.old through the brain of a 45-50 year old, we are much more experienced. We need to try to remember our adolescence experiences with the emotions and mental state of that time, just thinking.) What was going on, why did our parents or authorities make this decision. Not just the staple answer but what was really going on with us. Did these programs we were in help in any way and if they did how can that be expanded on.
I agree with what has been said so far about group therapy, it was handled irresponsibly while I was a resident at Elan. I believe that most of the staff that I was involved with were trying to help me, were just ill-advised and overwhelmed with the complexities of group therapy.
Do I think this problem was inherent yes I do, especially at Elan because the owner was maladjusted himself and the co-owner could not stand up to him.
This here I believe is a "isolated incident" insofar that I don't believe every owner was sick like Joe nor did they have a co-owner who could not stand up.
Just some thoughts for now.....
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I like where this is going too. First I would say that, in regard for a ‘need’ for programs and treatment, I don’t think one can validate the other yet, not as it currently operates. As it stands today I see that the only reliable function of the TTI is for intervention and detention purposes, therapeutic results I don’t think can be accounted for very well.
To purely identify these programs as a vessel for individual therapy would not be realistic, it functions as a social cure, and that is something we need to keep a close eye on. These facilities detain people outside the scrutiny of our legal system, and an industry of this size, that is even outsourced at this point, can grow out of control if we don’t challenge them, like we didn’t with the shady lending on wall street. It seems so obvious after the fact, but we got lost in fulfilling a ‘need’ before we understood the hows and whys of the solution, it is something we should not do.
Second In that there are children in ‘need’ of special services, and in some cases an actual program environment may be for the better, I don’t think that the child’s ‘need’ is the sole driver of the industry. I think more considerable elements are ‘desire’ and ‘demand’. The ‘desire’ for parents to do what’s best for their children, or do what’s best for the other members of the family, or to just have some free time and still look good, or any combination of those, is certainly a motivational factor. I think the industry creates demand by playing on parents emotions, candy coating appearances and using their professional stature to create a definition of a ‘child in need’ FOR them. Creating guides that teach parents to identify when their teen is going down a bad road, that cite instances such as ‘change in appearance’ ‘different friends’ ‘change in normal activities’, is just stating what we can expect from normal teenage development, and then advertising to them the well behaved child they are failures for not having creates an illusion of ‘need’ when it is a simple is a misperception of normal teenage growth in a constantly evolving world.
So the demand fulfilled by programs is separable into peices as I see it. Need (by child or family, society), Desire (by parents), and the service is also divisible into therapy for the individual and/or the family. The overall success of the TTI is a sum of these, and it is indeterminable how much a part ‘need’ (or any other part) plays in that. It would be interesting if we could evaluate the profits of the industry through those different streams of motivation from the buyer to really get a handle on how much ‘need’ plays in the overall demand.
It may sound nitpicky, but we are talking about particular services that are being attempted. If the industry becomes something that profits by servicing the ‘desire’ of the parent by mislabelling it as a ‘need’ of the child, that is a major context for inappropriate use of therapy.
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"Awake" wrote:
I like where this is going too. First I would say that, in regard for a ‘need’ for programs and treatment, I don’t think one can validate the other yet, not as it currently operates. As it stands today I see that the only reliable function of the TTI is for intervention and detention purposes, therapeutic results I don’t think can be accounted for very well.
No one can argue that for most of the programs.
To purely identify these programs as a vessel for individual therapy would not be realistic, it functions as a social cure, and that is something we need to keep a close eye on. These facilities detain people outside the scrutiny of our legal system, and an industry of this size, that is even outsourced at this point, can grow out of control if we don’t challenge them, like we didn’t with the shady lending on wall street. It seems so obvious after the fact, but we got lost in fulfilling a ‘need’ before we understood the hows and whys of the solution, it is something we should not do.
Well that is not necessarily the TTI's fault, that there is not scrutiny but I'm sure they take advantage of it. Some programs more then others.
Second In that there are children in ‘need’ of special services, and in some cases an actual program environment may be for the better, I don’t think that the child’s ‘need’ is the sole driver of the industry. I think more considerable elements are ‘desire’ and ‘demand’. The ‘desire’ for parents to do what’s best for their children, or do what’s best for the other members of the family, or to just have some free time and still look good, or any combination of those, is certainly a motivational factor. I think the industry creates demand by playing on parents emotions, candy coating appearances and using their professional stature to create a definition of a ‘child in need’ FOR them. Creating guides that teach parents to identify when their teen is going down a bad road, that cite instances such as ‘change in appearance’ ‘different friends’ ‘change in normal activities’, is just stating what we can expect from normal teenage development, and then advertising to them the well behaved child they are failures for not having creates an illusion of ‘need’ when it is a simple is a misperception of normal teenage growth in a constantly evolving world.
Awake all of this is the obvious, what more is going on here??????? Some folks on these web sites sound as if there is this country wide conspiracy going on to capitalize on children and their parents weaknesses to make money.
I just don't see this or can believe it, what I do see is programs that allocate their money within their organization in a piss pore way. Their priorities are screwed up, instead of investing more money in qualified staff and Psychiatrists, they want a new jungle gym or better uniforms for sports, newer classrooms to impress parents, ect.....
So the demand fulfilled by programs is separable into peices as I see it. Need (by child or family, society), Desire (by parents), and the service is also divisible into therapy for the individual and/or the family. The overall success of the TTI is a sum of these, and it is indeterminable how much a part ‘need’ (or any other part) plays in that. It would be interesting if we could evaluate the profits of the industry through those different streams of motivation from the buyer to really get a handle on how much ‘need’ plays in the overall demand.
I agree, how can we do it.
It may sound nitpicky, but we are talking about particular services that are being attempted. If the industry becomes something that profits by servicing the ‘desire’ of the parent by mislabelling it as a ‘need’ of the child, that is a major context for inappropriate use of therapy.
Well that is perception on your part, there are needs of the child.
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I'm not too concerned that woodbury wrote it up positively. I don't trust him at all based on his past alliances, but even a total schmuck hits a bull's eye every now and again. What I like about RPS is it doesn't stifle individual expression and does not use lifespring experentials or abusive group raps. It doesn't appear to rely on therapeutic coersion at all. It is not a TBS.
Perhaps Rock Point School could be best described as what Woodbury refers to as an "emotional growth school," which to *my* mind at least, DOES employ a fair amount of coercion.
At any rate, I've started a new thread to continue that side discussion:
viewtopic.php?f=52&t=30805 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=30805)
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There was a poster named Son of Serbia who went to CEDU. He did talk about a school (not a program) that worked very well for him after CEDU. But it wasn't a program - nor was it based on punitive, insular, or synanon practices. It was a real school geared for kids who think differetly, based on respect. It didn't tear apart families etc. and it in no way resembled a program. (Serb is extremely independent minded and a staunch opponent of a program like CEDU. I wish I remembered the school. It was in Vermont.)
It's called Rock Point School (http://http://www.rockpoint.org/). Son of Serbia mentioned it here (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=6589&p=61635#p61635), here (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=12344&p=142461#p142461), and here (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=23636&p=299243#p299243) (and, in some cases, a subsequent post in addition to noted link).
I am aware of this place 'cuz there is a negative review (http://http://www.strugglingteens.com/news/lettertoeditor/reamersiegel041107.html) of Hyde School on Lon's site, written by a couple who pulled their daughter from Hyde. They subsequently enrolled her at Rock Point School, and ended up also submitting a positive review (http://http://www.strugglingteens.com/news/lettertoeditor/reamersiegel050204.html) for the latter.
As a qualifying comment on the latter, I should add that it doesn't sound like their daughter had yet completed the year ... at the time that said positive review was written, although I might be interpreting that incorrectly. I think the parents were just sooooo happy that Rock Point wasn't as punitively based, coercive, and dishonest as Hyde was, and felt compelled to point out that difference!
It's also mentioned on the Hyde forum a few times: here (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=12273&p=141826#p141826), and here (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=12843&p=152015#p152015), and some other conversation that I can't find right now.
Although I'm not really in a position to judge, I would say it's a bit of a concern to me that Lon Woodbury apparently thinks so highly of them. Just sayin' ... as a word of caution.
I think it needs to be remembered that woodbury will promote anything if there is a potential referral buck along the road. This in and of itself is not what makes a lace good or bad. I have read some criticisms of rock point for being academically flaky, but none that would suggest any informed consent issues or concerning "therapies" being performed. I suspect the reason why it is promoted by Struggling teens is that it may attract a similar type of kid to many of those sent into the industry. Ie a kid who for whatever reason had trouble of some kind at their last school or in a standard public school setting. I would be asking more questions if it had staff with extensive industry expreince or any rules that appeared unreasonable or any reports of systemic abuse from ex students
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Awake all of this is the obvious, what more is going on here??????? Some folks on these web sites sound as if there is this country wide conspiracy going on to capitalize on children and their parents weaknesses to make money.
I just don't see this or can believe it, what I do see is programs that allocate their money within their organization in a piss pore way. Their priorities are screwed up, instead of investing more money in qualified staff and Psychiatrists, they want a new jungle gym or better uniforms for sports, newer classrooms to impress parents, ect.....
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Well, I don’t think it is all that obvious to some families, and I think there may be some validity in a ‘conspiracy’ of sorts underlying the success of the TTI. There is enough evidence for me to believe that the perception of therapy is illusory and a resulting phenomenon of their unique organizational structure. I may not have all the evidence to prove this beyond a shadow of a doubt, but in the early days of development there are some telling influences.
For now the very(very) short version is Synanon meets the Human Potential Movement and has a bunch of TTI program babies. Synanon is the model of the TC, and the Human Potential Movement that uses humanistic philosophy for the purpose of cultivating successful societal change. (If you want to know why Lifespring, Est, Esalen are relevant it is because of this). The founder of Cedu, Mel Wasserman, actually used elements of Lifespring to create Cedu. This, to me, represents the difference between subjective growth and the spread of a shared pathology, in this case purposely misinterpreted as ‘growth’.
Read this over on Lifespring, a Human Potential organization that was used to create Cedu. http://www.rickross.com/reference/lifes ... ring4.html (http://www.rickross.com/reference/lifespring/lifespring4.html)
So this particular history goes:
Abraham Maslow, founder of Humanistic Psychiatry, stayed at Synanon (Daytop branch, NY) in 1965 and promoted a unity of humanism with Synanon.
1967, Esalen, Santa Barbara Ca, becomes a center for studying humanism and ‘personal growth’ testing marathon groups, encounter, psychodrama, guided imagery, bioenergetics, gestalt, (pretty much anything under the sun! Extreme temperature variations, nude encounter, ‘eye gazing’, polarizing emotional experiences, heavy emphasis on bringing the subject to catharsis ( as catharsis is the point of being ‘de-programmed’ in ‘human potential work’), any experience that can be uniquely ‘human’ essentially. This place was an unprecedented meeting ground for many innovative and influential minds in new psychotherapeutic approaches.
1967, Synanon, undergoes a massive change to incorporate many of these new humanistic styles, such as marathon group experiential, claims itself to be a Utopia. It Opens up the Synanon ‘Game’s to any outsider that wants to play and grows centers In Santa Barbara and Oakland CA.
1967 Mel Wasserman founds Cedu, a know affiliate of Synanon who hired from that organization, used tools from Lifespring (along with a whole variety of humanistic methods) to creat the first “Emotional Growth” school, that has been widely copied.
So yes, I think there is an art of manipulating subjective growth (and the perception of such) systemically in favour of the organization and it’s directors. And it has a direct connection with the earliest development of TTI programs. I want to say there might be the possibility of something that could be called a conspiracy here.
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For now the very(very) short version is Synanon meets the Human Potential Movement and has a bunch of TTI program babies. Synanon is the model of the TC, and the Human Potential Movement that uses humanistic philosophy for the purpose of cultivating successful societal change.
The therapeutic community modality was introduced to the American public long before Synanon. It was introduced to treatment of malingering adolescents long before Synanon. I think you are making a big mistake to assume "it all began" there.
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Well I don’t know. I know this isn’t the VERY first history of TC’s, which have alot more influences than from what I’m talking about, (and I have really cut out much more that I would include), but in terms of a solid connective history that implicates the deceptive intent of a TTI model, this is really as summative as I can say it, but am I missing something?
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Guess the date; this is from a description of "group" or "seminar" or what have you, emphasis added:
Many of the boys are shrewd and wily. They know how to tell pathetic stories to win sympathy. But among themselves, when someone tries to sell such a story, the others won't buy it. And they tell him. These boys are trying to unearth truths, about themselves and others. For it is the meeting that measures a boy's progress. The basic decision for his release depends on the other boys' judgment of his improvement.
While XXXX or XXXXX conduct the group psychotherapy sessions, they are not psychiatrists, nor do they play such a role. The boys are their own psychiatrists. They go at it as though the best way to find out what's inside a boy's head is to split it open with an axe.[/list]
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I will guess but I don't know what that comes from. Bion and Lewin? Tavistock, Northfield related?
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For now the very(very) short version is Synanon meets the Human Potential Movement and has a bunch of TTI program babies. Synanon is the model of the TC, and the Human Potential Movement that uses humanistic philosophy for the purpose of cultivating successful societal change.
The therapeutic community modality was introduced to the American public long before Synanon. It was introduced to treatment of malingering adolescents long before Synanon. I think you are making a big mistake to assume "it all began" there.
Ursus explain more, if you will.
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Guess the date; this is from a description of "group" or "seminar" or what have you, emphasis added:
Many of the boys are shrewd and wily. They know how to tell pathetic stories to win sympathy. But among themselves, when someone tries to sell such a story, the others won't buy it. And they tell him. These boys are trying to unearth truths, about themselves and others. For it is the meeting that measures a boy's progress. The basic decision for his release depends on the other boys' judgment of his improvement.
While XXXX or XXXXX conduct the group psychotherapy sessions, they are not psychiatrists, nor do they play such a role. The boys are their own psychiatrists. They go at it as though the best way to find out what's inside a boy's head is to split it open with an axe.[/list]
This was in the early 50's.
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Re-posted here, I felt it was relevant to the conversation or at least add to the content here. The author of this post is Mark Babbitz's he is from Elan. Mark great post, thanks once again for your tireless digging.
Re: Elan discussion from New Forum Policies
New postby mark babitz » 29 minutes ago
:jawdrop: :jawdrop: To the Editor: :jawdrop: :jawdrop:
. . . Why do child-care workers think they must bribe children? Susan Seidner Adler is on target when she observes the peculiar social-work attitude which so simplistically and absurdly perceives the root of evil in a child as caused by deprivation whose reversal will eliminate the evil.
No such cause and effect exists. Careful studies in Britain posed the very pertinent question: why don't all children from culturally and economically deprived neighborhoods go bad? . . . The answer was clear: children went “bad” when they were not held accountable for their actions, their time, their behavior. The real indicators of potential problems were not race, single-parent families, class, or levels of parental education, but the extent to which existing parental figures—including the school—expressed their care for children through some clearly communicated, . . . consistently applied code of behavior whose breach would be punished. Discipline is a form of caring. It is that simple. . . .
Last year, the directors of an institution almost certainly on Mrs. Adler's list visited Elan, the facility for delinquent adolescents of which I am director. They saw—and very much appreciated—a diametrically different philosophy and methodology of treatment. A facility where there was no violence and no drug traffic, where character (not just behavior) was expected to change and did change. It delighted them, and they said so. These are sophisticated, intelligent, highly competent people, not the fools Mrs. Adler makes them out to be. But they regretfully also said that changing things was impossible for them. The New York State bureaucracy would never permit it. How did we manage at Elan? . . .
The Juvenile Justice Act . . . is largely behind the mess described by Mrs. Adler. It mandates the treatment of juveniles according to arbitrary, irrelevant legal categories rather than medical or psychological problems. Adjudicated delinquents are to be segregated from others (status offenders, the dependent, the neglected, etc., etc.) and hence treated differently. In other words, adolescents are to be treated according to what a defective, overworked, overburdened court system thinks they did, rather than according to what the problem actually is. . . .
Adjudicated delinquents are to be segregated. They really are on a one-way rail to jail. The others are to get different treatment. As with all excessively punitive laws, we try to evade them. Every decent person in the system tries to avoid the adjudication process. The truly dangerous criminal youth is by law lumped together with (1) the loser who was dumb enough to get caught; or (2) the child who wanted to get caught as a cry for help; or (3) the juvenile whose family can't afford a lawyer; or (4) the child who comes from the wrong side of the tracks, etc., etc. That is why Mrs, Adler's institutions have this frightening, untreatable mixture of the dangerous with the unfortunate, the troubled, the crazy; and with a lot of healthy aggressive children, too. That's why that ridiculous term “emotionally disturbed” was invented and why it is used so assiduously.
What is “emotionally disturbed” in the real world? About 10-12 percent (I'm guessing, but after lots of experience) are psychotic, i.e., have disordered thoughts, are crazy, and suffer from schizophrenic disease. Another 10 percent are criminally sociopathic. We do not know yet how to treat these groups and cannot always recognize them clearly. The rest are treatable. . . .
At Elan, we know that a psychotic or a criminal adolescent eats up all our energy, and deprives the treatable of their just share: we cannot mix them with the others. So we do not accept them. But Mrs. Adler's institutions do. They take them all. . . . Dealing with another sector of adolescent care—the high school—Edward A. Wynne has also placed the blame squarely on what I, too, perceive to be the villain: the courts and lawyers. In recent years a whole series of laws, attitudes, and judicial judgments have been created which have led our society—and most certainly our contentious youth—to perceive youngsters as adults with a full range of civil rights which need to be actively protected from . . . infringement by adults in authority. Schools and child-care agencies have been forced into a defensive posture by self-styled advocates who apply the most rigid rulings of civil rights and who assume the malevolence of the institutions toward the child. All authority is seen as evil by these people. . . .
Schools and other public and publicly-assisted (and therefore publicly legislated) institutions have been left without their communal or authoritative functions: the care implied by the concept in loco parentis has been replaced by legalistic intervention by an uncaring party. I have yet to see a child-advocate lawyer take responsibility for a child's care after rendering an institution powerless to do so in court. Wynne points out the result: “Educators. . . . have abdicated their parental duties and have become mere custodians.” Custodians can only hope for limited, short-term effectiveness, and bribery is the easiest way to achieve their goal. . . .
In the long run, the legalistic interpretation, and the irresponsible interventions performed in its name, are removing more and more options for the care of disturbed children. Since I co-founded Elan as a residential psychiatric-care facility eleven years ago, we have prided ourselves on providing the highest quality care to a wide spectrum of adolescents, including those referred to us by public and quasi-public agencies. We play no games about defining success: success is a graduate who does not reenter the criminal-justice system, who completes a realistic level of education, and who becomes self-supporting. Our rate has been as phenomenally high as is the recidivism rate of state institutions.
But no longer. We simply cannot provide quality care while fighting the de-facto malevolent forces of child-right advocates in the twenty-five or more states we serve. Our doors are now open to privately-funded residents only. We, at least, care not to be caretakers. We insist on the role of real healer.
[Dr.] Gerald E. Davidson
Elan One
Poland Spring, Maine
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=w (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=w) ... vZ-fn-Ygyw
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=w (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=w) ... 28Jy1CzPUg
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mark babitz
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We simply cannot provide quality care while fighting the de-facto malevolent forces of child-right advocates
This is a sick, demented statement. Child advocates are "evil" in the minds of program supporters because they insist on valid, quality, clinical care by licensed professionals and that hits programs where it hurts, the pocketbook.
Gerald E. Davidson should not be allowed near children at all. He has serious problems.
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We simply cannot provide quality care while fighting the de-facto malevolent forces of child-right advocates
This is a sick, demented statement. Child advocates are "evil" in the minds of program supporters because they insist on valid, quality, clinical care by licensed professionals and that hits programs where it hurts, the pocketbook.
Gerald E. Davidson should not be allowed near children at all. He has serious problems.
I agree 100%.
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We simply cannot provide quality care while fighting the de-facto malevolent forces of child-right advocates
This is a sick, demented statement. Child advocates are "evil" in the minds of program supporters because they insist on valid, quality, clinical care by licensed professionals and that hits programs where it hurts, the pocketbook.
Gerald E. Davidson should not be allowed near children at all. He has serious problems.
I agree 100%.
Yeah... 'cept that Dr. Gerald Davidson was one of those "licensed professionals" providing "valid, quality, clinical care," at least as it was perceived to be at the time...
Danny's post, quoting Mark Babitz, contained no link back to the original post, nor any workable links for that matter. Pertinent and missing, perhaps also from Babitz's post as well, is a link to Davidson's "Letter to the Editor," as well as to the original article being responded to in the first place. So... here they are:
Commentary Magazine
Bribing Delinquents to be Good (http://http://www.commentarymagazine.com/viewarticle.cfm/bribing-delinquents-to-be-good-6470)
Susan Seidner Adler
October 1981
Commentary Magazine
Juvenile Delinquents
Reader Letters (http://http://www.commentarymagazine.com/viewarticle.cfm/juvenile-delinquents-13349?page=all)
January 1982[/list]
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Guess the date; this is from a description of "group" or "seminar" or what have you, emphasis added:
Many of the boys are shrewd and wily. They know how to tell pathetic stories to win sympathy. But among themselves, when someone tries to sell such a story, the others won't buy it. And they tell him. These boys are trying to unearth truths, about themselves and others. For it is the meeting that measures a boy's progress. The basic decision for his release depends on the other boys' judgment of his improvement.
While XXXX or XXXXX conduct the group psychotherapy sessions, they are not psychiatrists, nor do they play such a role. The boys are their own psychiatrists. They go at it as though the best way to find out what's inside a boy's head is to split it open with an axe.[/list]
This was in the early 50's.
I'm not gonna say you are correct or incorrect ... 'till you explain a lil more about why you chose that time period. ::evil::
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Commentary Magazine
Bribing Delinquents to be Good
Susan Seidner Adler
October 1981
Commentary Magazine
Juvenile Delinquents
Reader Letters
January 1982
If anyone is seriously interested in examining the phenomenon of juvenile delinquency, I would suggest reading some of the books authored by my dear friends, colleagues and professional mentors Herman and Julia Schwendinger (http://http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4GGLG_enUS312US312&q=herman+schwendinger) whose exhaustive and detailed field work and experience are surpassed by none.
One of my favorites, Adolescent Subcultures and Delinquency, goes into the fairly recent (25-30 year) trend of middle class juvenile delinquency and provides some insight into why "programs" (of various sorts) have arisen, even though they show no quantitative evidence of efficacy. It also offers insight into appropriate ways to deal with delinquency.
I worked closely with Dr. (Herman) Schwendinger for several months doing research and field work on Los Angeles gangbangers for one of his research projects in 1990. To see a tiny, elderly Jewish man hanging around on street corners, in gang houses and projects with some of the deadliest gangs and bangers around taking notes and asking questions was pure anomaly to say the least, but nobody does it better than he.
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I still don't know but ? Maxwell Jones ? Jones, M. (1952) Social psychiatry. A study of therapeutic communities.
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I will guess but I don't know what that comes from. Bion and Lewin? Tavistock, Northfield related?
I still don't know but ? Maxwell Jones ? Jones, M. (1952) Social psychiatry. A study of therapeutic communities.
Good answers, but none of the above ... directly.
Incidentally, the Northfield Experiments at Tavistock dealt with adult male soldiers as subjects/patients/clients. (I know you had said "related;" this was meant as a clarification in case others were less familiar...)
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Guess the date; this is from a description of "group" or "seminar" or what have you, emphasis added:
Many of the boys are shrewd and wily. They know how to tell pathetic stories to win sympathy. But among themselves, when someone tries to sell such a story, the others won't buy it. And they tell him. These boys are trying to unearth truths, about themselves and others. For it is the meeting that measures a boy's progress. The basic decision for his release depends on the other boys' judgment of his improvement.
While XXXX or XXXXX conduct the group psychotherapy sessions, they are not psychiatrists, nor do they play such a role. The boys are their own psychiatrists. They go at it as though the best way to find out what's inside a boy's head is to split it open with an axe.[/list]
This was in the early 50's.
I'm not gonna say you are correct or incorrect ... 'till you explain a lil more about why you chose that time period. ::evil::
It doesn't work that way, I answered the question and it is correct. This is based on accurate study and research.
Ursus give up my game of being ignorant here, nope.
Have fun.
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Dr.Davidson is dead, no longer with us. I posted this letter to show folks with knowledge of Elan just how insane Gerald Davidson was, he was the "behind the scenes owner" the "shadow" we called him of Joe Ricci. Alan Frey coined that phrase.
What I do love to see is how Ursus and others try to comment on Dr.Davidson with absolutely to information what so ever. It just cracks me up, how programed you folks are concerning your rebuttals.
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Joe Ricci has a circle of dead grass for 500 yards around his grave, guess that's what a great guy HE was.. lol
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Dr.Davidson is dead, no longer with us.
Well, good riddance to bad garbage, I guess. Unfortunately, there are many more like him. Several on this forum, too.
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Dr.Davidson is dead, no longer with us.
Well, good riddance to bad garbage, I guess. Unfortunately, there are many more like him. Several on this forum, too.
Yes I take that as a compliment.
You don't even know the man, DJ....lol.
He became confused but towards the end of his life
found his way back, after he had left Elan. Dr. Davidson
was not necessarily responsible for day to day operations.
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Joe Ricci has a circle of dead grass for 500 yards around his grave, guess that's what a great guy HE was.. lol
Forodie, this is not "The Hobbit" there are no witches, warlocks and wizards.
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You're correct, Danny. The "hobbit" is a tiny, dirty locked cell (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=5176&p=46546&hilit=hobbit#p46546)where "misbehaving" WWASP program captives are locked up when they don't "go with the program." Or when one of the cadre of thugs (counselors) gets horny.
A log cabin with tiny isolation rooms, called the Hobbit, sits on the edge of Spring Creek Lodge's compound in the woods. Some teenagers, like Alex Ziperovich, 16, say they have spent months in the Hobbit, eating meals of beans and bananas.
"He came out 35 pounds lighter, acting like a zombie," said his mother, Michele Ziperovich, a Seattle lawyer. "When he came back, he was worse, far worse."
In March, the county prosecutor charged a 20-year-old staff member with sexually assaulting two boys in the Hobbit, one 14 and the other 17.
Aren't these programs lovely?
BTW, my previous comment wasn't directed at you. Bit of a leap there, Danny.
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You're correct, Danny. The "hobbit" is a tiny, dirty locked cell (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=5176&p=46546&hilit=hobbit#p46546)where "misbehaving" WWASP program captives are locked up when they don't "go with the program." Or when one of the cadre of thugs (counselors) gets horny.
A log cabin with tiny isolation rooms, called the Hobbit, sits on the edge of Spring Creek Lodge's compound in the woods. Some teenagers, like Alex Ziperovich, 16, say they have spent months in the Hobbit, eating meals of beans and bananas.
"He came out 35 pounds lighter, acting like a zombie," said his mother, Michele Ziperovich, a Seattle lawyer. "When he came back, he was worse, far worse."
In March, the county prosecutor charged a 20-year-old staff member with sexually assaulting two boys in the Hobbit, one 14 and the other 17.
Aren't these programs lovely?
BTW, my previous comment wasn't directed at you. Bit of a leap there, Danny.
I know they weren't......lol. Btw, yes programs have had bad things happen, stop acting like this is so unusual. Just think staff members were once residents probably, how many other kids did he molest in his life.
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yes programs have bad things happen there, stop acting like this is so unusual
Au contraire mon frere... I believe it is indeed extrordinarily common.
In fact, child abuse is SOP for many of these facilities. If I hadn't read dozens of stories from dozens of investigative reports and court transcripts of kids being beaten, starved, locked in cramped cells or dog cages, raped and neglected, I may have thought it unusual. But empirically speaking, it is, sadly, not.
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Guess the date; this is from a description of "group" or "seminar" or what have you, emphasis added:
Many of the boys are shrewd and wily. They know how to tell pathetic stories to win sympathy. But among themselves, when someone tries to sell such a story, the others won't buy it. And they tell him. These boys are trying to unearth truths, about themselves and others. For it is the meeting that measures a boy's progress. The basic decision for his release depends on the other boys' judgment of his improvement.
While XXXX or XXXXX conduct the group psychotherapy sessions, they are not psychiatrists, nor do they play such a role. The boys are their own psychiatrists. They go at it as though the best way to find out what's inside a boy's head is to split it open with an axe.[/list]
This was in the early 50's.
I'm not gonna say you are correct or incorrect ... 'till you explain a lil more about why you chose that time period. ::evil::
It doesn't work that way, I answered the question and it is correct. This is based on accurate study and research.
Ursus give up my game of being ignorant here, nope.
Have fun.
Sorry, Danny, I asked for the date when this was written. I'm willing to settle for inexact or vague answers if you can explain your reasoning and said reasoning is at least in the right ball park.
You answered the question and were incorrect, and were apparently unwilling or unable to explain your reasoning. So much for the "accurate study and research" of which you are so coy about... lol
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yes programs have bad things happen there, stop acting like this is so unusual
Au contraire mon frere... I believe it is indeed extrordinarily common.
In fact, child abuse is SOP for many of these facilities. If I hadn't read dozens of stories from dozens of investigative reports and court transcripts of kids being beaten, starved, locked in cramped cells or dog cages, raped and neglected, I may have thought it unusual. But empirically speaking, it is, sadly, not.
Dj was this SOP when you worked at HLA? :roflmao:
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wills?
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You're correct, Danny. The "hobbit" is a tiny, dirty locked cell (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=5176&p=46546&hilit=hobbit#p46546)where "misbehaving" WWASP program captives are locked up when they don't "go with the program." Or when one of the cadre of thugs (counselors) gets horny.
A log cabin with tiny isolation rooms, called the Hobbit, sits on the edge of Spring Creek Lodge's compound in the woods. Some teenagers, like Alex Ziperovich, 16, say they have spent months in the Hobbit, eating meals of beans and bananas.
"He came out 35 pounds lighter, acting like a zombie," said his mother, Michele Ziperovich, a Seattle lawyer. "When he came back, he was worse, far worse."
In March, the county prosecutor charged a 20-year-old staff member with sexually assaulting two boys in the Hobbit, one 14 and the other 17.
Aren't these programs lovely?
BTW, my previous comment wasn't directed at you. Bit of a leap there, Danny.
I know they weren't......lol. Btw, yes programs have had bad things happen, stop acting like this is so unusual. Just think staff members were once residents probably, how many other kids did he molest in his life.
As a heads up all the places they are talking about are closed. Many here try to deceive readers into believing this happens today by speaking in the present tense.
Reread the previous paragraph and notice how it is written to deceive readers into believing it is current information, like it happened last March.
In my opinion if programs were as dangerous as many here claim there would be no need for deception.
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WWASPS is still operating. They use the "Hobbit" and even have used dog cages to lock up children. If there is any evidence to support WWASPS is no longer in operation, just post it. I think we all know that's not true. But we can wait for your evidence that WWASPS is no longer operating. :beat:
Quote from my previous post is from an article about Spring Creek Lodge Academy (http://http://www.springcreeklodge.com/) (where they use the "Hobbit").
One former staff member, Mark Runkle, who worked for two and a half years at the academy, said he became skeptical of some practices, like taking children into the woods at night for psychological tests of will.
"They take kids down to the Vermillion Bridge at night, blindfold them, and push them off into the river; they take them off into the woods, and they come back hurt," Mr. Runkle said. "They claim it's a mind-increaser. I think it breaks the kids down - breaks their will down. Mentally, they do damage. Emotionally, too."
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WWASPS is still operating. They use the "Hobbit" and even have used dog cages to lock up children. If there is any evidence to support WWASPS is no longer in operation, just post it. I think we all know that's not true. But we can wait for your evidence that WWASPS is no longer operating.
The program you were talking about, Spring Creek Lodge, is closed. Where do they use the Hobbit now? Just asking so we know which programs we should avoid.
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The website is still up and running. Click on the link in my last post to be taken to their website. It looks like the site is still funneling business to WWASPS.
http://http://www.wwaspsinfo.net/index.html has more information on TeenHelp (WWASPS) and the facilties that are still operating. WWASPS is well known to use isolation cells as part of their "program."
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The website is still up and running. Click on the link in my last post to be taken to their website. It looks like the site is still funneling business to WWASPS.
Spring Creek Lodge (The one with the Hobbit) is closed, DJ. You already know this. I am just trying to warn the others readers so that they dont get the impression this is happening today.
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Go to WWASPS info and you'll see it is happening today. WWASPS uses isolation cells to control kids' behavior.
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Go to WWASPS info and you'll see it is happening today. WWASPS uses isolation cells to control kids' behavior.
I did check the web site and Spring Creek Lodge (The one with the Hobbit) is closed, DJ. Just want the readers to know this.
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Would you two take this elsewhere please.
You are disturbing a thread that has nothing
to do with your squabble.
Thanks
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This lawsuit (http://http://www.wwaspsinfo.net/wwasps/turleysuit.pdf) details the use of isolation cells, abuse, neglect, etc. at WWASPS facilites including several that are still operating.
WWASPS is still operating and still using isolation cells. It can't be swept under the rug.
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This lawsuit (http://http://www.wwaspsinfo.net/wwasps/turleysuit.pdf) details the use of isolation cells, abuse, neglect, etc. at WWASPS facilites including several that are still operating.
WWASPS is still operating and still using isolation cells. It can't be swept under the rug.
WWASPS is still operating, yes. I wouldn't send my child to a WWASPS program. But we need to be honest with the readers. If we are referencing a program which has been closed and their use of the "hobbit" we should indicate that clearly. I was pointing out that you were using the present tense in your reference to Spring Creek Lodge and the use of the Hobbit. Many posters do that here and I think it is deceiving to those who are new here.
Nothing against you personally, you may have had good intentions.
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Go to WWASPS info and you'll see it is happening today. WWASPS uses isolation cells to control kids' behavior.
I did check the web site and Spring Creek Lodge (The one with the Hobbit) is closed, DJ. Just want the readers to know this.
Yep. And I imagine that a good number of Lifers amongst the former staff went on to other programs, be they other WWASP facilities or some new hybrids... I'm sure you'll want the readers to know this, Whooter.
Spring Creek Lodge's Mickey Manning teamed up with Lorne Riddell (founder of another program which I can't recall at the moment) to open RiverView Academy (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=30258) a few months ago.
Mickey Manning being interviewed while at SCL / SCL students:
(http://http://www.caica.org/SCL%202.jpg)
"As far as the kids are concerned, they are going to manipulate to the hills, because that's what these kids do."
[/size]
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Go to WWASPS info and you'll see it is happening today. WWASPS uses isolation cells to control kids' behavior.
I did check the web site and Spring Creek Lodge (The one with the Hobbit) is closed, DJ. Just want the readers to know this.
Yep. And I imagine that a good number of Lifers amongst the former staff went on to other programs, be they other WWASP facilities or some new hybrids... I'm sure you'll want the readers to know this, Whooter.
Spring Creek Lodge's Mickey Manning teamed up with Lorne Riddell (founder of another program which I can't recall at the moment) to open RiverView Academy (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=30258) a few months ago.
Mickey Manning being interviewed while at SCL / SCL students:
(http://http://www.caica.org/SCL%202.jpg)
"As far as the kids are concerned, they are going to manipulate to the hills, because that's what these kids do."
[/size]
See now this is current information, thank you Ursus. If we get news that they built and isolation chamber or a "Hobbit" then this would be of concern to parents considering sending their kids there.
Just assuming all programs are "good" or all programs are "bad" are dangerous assumptions.
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"to the hills"? :timeout:
Didn't that knuckleheaded woman mean to say "to the hilt"?
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Go to WWASPS info and you'll see it is happening today. WWASPS uses isolation cells to control kids' behavior.
I did check the web site and Spring Creek Lodge (The one with the Hobbit) is closed, DJ. Just want the readers to know this.
Yep. And I imagine that a good number of Lifers amongst the former staff went on to other programs, be they other WWASP facilities or some new hybrids... I'm sure you'll want the readers to know this, Whooter.
Spring Creek Lodge's Mickey Manning teamed up with Lorne Riddell (founder of another program which I can't recall at the moment) to open RiverView Academy (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=30258) a few months ago.
Mickey Manning being interviewed while at SCL / SCL students:
(http://http://www.caica.org/SCL%202.jpg)
"As far as the kids are concerned, they are going to manipulate to the hills, because that's what these kids do."
[/size]
This facility is the old Spring Creek Lodge. It has been reopened under a new name by the old SCL players. (http://http://www.teenhelpindustry.info/springcreeksecrecy.asp)
On the evening of Friday, Sept. 9, a 16-year-old boy was found approximately 30 feet below the lip of a cliff above the Clark Fork River west of Thompson Falls. The boy was a student at Spring Creek Lodge Academy, a specialty boarding school in Sanders County and member of the World Wide Association of Specialty Schools and Programs (WWASPS). Two sources close to Spring Creek told the Independent that Adrian Sanders was being transported from Spring Creek to an associated facility in Jamaica when he escaped his teen transport service, Second Chance Transport of Thompson Falls. He was later found by search and rescue personnel below the cliffs behind the Rimrock Lodge motel, one mile west of Thompson Falls on State Hwy 200. He was transported to Clark Fork Valley Hospital in Plains.
Details of the incident and the extent of the boy’s injuries have been hard to come by.
Queries directed to traditional sources of information including the local sheriff’s department, ambulance service and hospital, have turned up little or no information. It is still unknown if an investigation into the boy’s attempted escape and subsequent fall and injury was ever conducted.
The level of secrecy surrounding even minor details related to the incident is startling. Officials at the Clark Fork Valley Hospital refuse to confirm whether the boy was ever a patient. A Thompson Falls Volunteer Ambulance official refuses to comment on whether or not the ambulance company even responded to the incident. The local sheriff says there was no investigation into or documentation of the incident other than an EMS/Fire initial dispatch report, which includes 18 lines of frustratingly vague narrative of the response to the incident. The private company responsible for transporting Adrian Sanders refused to comment other than to say that their charge suffered a “minor concussion” and that everything “turned out fine.” Neither Spring Creek Lodge’s director nor the school’s principal returned phone calls regarding the incident. A spokeswoman for Spring Creek said the school is “not authorized to give information on the student.” Information on where Adrian Sanders is from, why he was being transported, how he escaped, the extent of his injuries and the nature of the rescue have all been withheld from the Independent or were never documented.
The day before Adrian Sanders’ fall, Spring Creek’s principal, Michele “Mickey” Manning, took her seat on the new governor-appointed Private Alternative Adolescent Residential or Outdoor Programs board.
Kids were literally willing to risk death to escape the clutches of Mickey Manning and her associates.
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Yep. And I imagine that a good number of Lifers amongst the former staff went on to other programs, be they other WWASP facilities or some new hybrids... I'm sure you'll want the readers to know this, Whooter.
I think anyone who has been in an industry and has changed jobs (or has done any hiring) knows this. If a guy has 10 – 15 years working in a program and then it gets shut down their marketability is whatever they have done for the past 10 – 15 years and can attain the best salary by staying with what they are experienced in. If the new program has lifesteps then they will do life steps, if it doesn’t then they wont do it. Employees cannot redesign the model.
Why does this continue to be a big deal for you Ursus? You can walk into say Aetna Insurance Company in Hartford today and talk to 100 employees who had previous jobs before taking a job at Aetna and you would find that the lions share or close to 90% (I would be willing to bet) would have come from John Hancock, Prudential, Allstate etc or other insurance companies…. people stick with what they know and what they have experience with. This is not just unique to programs.
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WWASPS is still operating, yes. I wouldn't send my child to a WWASPS program.
Didn't you claim to have sent your imaginary daughter to a wwasp program?
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Yep. And I imagine that a good number of Lifers amongst the former staff went on to other programs, be they other WWASP facilities or some new hybrids... I'm sure you'll want the readers to know this, Whooter.
I think anyone who has been in an industry and has changed jobs (or has done any hiring) knows this. If a guy has 10 – 15 years working in a program and then it gets shut down their marketability is whatever they have done for the past 10 – 15 years and can attain the best salary by staying with what they are experienced in. If the new program has lifesteps then they will do life steps, if it doesn’t then they wont do it. Employees cannot redesign the model.
Why does this continue to be a big deal for you Ursus? You can walk into say Aetna Insurance Company in Hartford today and talk to 100 employees who had previous jobs before taking a job at Aetna and you would find that the lions share or close to 90% (I would be willing to bet) would have come from John Hancock, Prudential, Allstate etc or other insurance companies…. people stick with what they know and what they have experience with. This is not just unique to programs.
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Oh but according to Ursus, DJ and the rest here this lateral movement is paramount to a conspiracy, a ongoing clandestine operation to make sure that the, "Abusive, Corrupt, Education Depravity and Thought Manipulative Programs" stay open.
I now believe they all meet right after the G-20 summits, ya know so there hidden. Every program from the TTI in the world meet and discuss how they will continue there assault on the youth of this world.
Ya know because we want more disturbed, drug addicted and uneducated kids on our streets, creating more claims for the Insurance Industry to take advantage of, Big Pharma to practice experimental drugs on and Adult programs to maximize on.
Politicians are having a field day also spinning and weaving alongside there lobbyist.
Watching all these components connected to the TTI it is like watching the Philadelphia Philharmonic, what a orchestra of events.
It is Sunday morning and I thought I would give my two cents, I was not invited to any of the Sunday News Shows, so I decided to entertain you folks.
This is why I call It a, "ISOLATED INCIDENT" because it is.
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Here's an "isolated incident" in which the state ruled that Aspen Education was systematically abusing SEVENTY-SEVEN CHILDREN in their care.
I agree with a lot of what you say, DJ. But they concluded that there were only 9 substantiated cases of abuse. There were many "findings" but the findings have not been substantiated as of yet except 9 of them. I am sure the number will rise once they decipher which they can substantiate and which of the findings they cannot.
But at this point only 9 are substantiated which is about 10%, not 100%.
That is not quite how the Department of Human Services in the state of Oregon saw it.
From the Complaint and Order to Correct Conditions (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=29131&p=350409#p350409), color emphasis added:
In October 2009, the Office of Investigations and Training (OIT) completed its investigation and determined that eight allegations of abuse involving five individual students were substantiated against the agency, Mt. Bachelor Academy. The report indicates that the abuse allegations are "exemplars" in that these five clients' experience is not unique and is "substantially consistent" with the experience of all children enrolled in the program. The report further substantiated an allegation of abuse against the Executive Director. The Executive Director either knew of the abusive practices of the agency, or she should have known what was happening under her authority.[/list]
From the above transcribed Order of Emergency License Suspension (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=30803&p=370132#p370132):
Ultimate Findings of Fact: DHS finds that due to MBA's abuse and neglect of students and violations of the licensing rules listed above, MBA poses a serious danger to public health or safety should MBA be permitted to continue operating as a therapeutic boarding school for children. DHS finds that a condition exists that immediately endangers the health or safety of the children at MBA should MBA be permitted to continue providing therapeutic, educational and residential services to children.[/list]
So there is an indication that the 8 substantiated abuses are typical of what the rest of the students endured in the reports findings. So there is a strong possibility that they will conclude that all the kids (100%) were abused.
...
"Isolated Incident," my ass. It's the program game plan.
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Not sure what a "cow web" is but the report is just a couple of months old. You are always saying "that happened thirty years ago!" but this happened a few months ago. It's obviously relevent, pertinent and contemporary. But, the point is it was happening thirty years ago and it's happening now - nothing has changed.
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Here's an "isolated incident" in which the state ruled that Aspen Education was systematically abusing SEVENTY-SEVEN CHILDREN in their care.
I agree with a lot of what you say, DJ. But they concluded that there were only 9 substantiated cases of abuse. There were many "findings" but the findings have not been substantiated as of yet except 9 of them. I am sure the number will rise once they decipher which they can substantiate and which of the findings they cannot.
But at this point only 9 are substantiated which is about 10%, not 100%.
That is not quite how the Department of Human Services in the state of Oregon saw it.
From the Complaint and Order to Correct Conditions (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=29131&p=350409#p350409), color emphasis added:
In October 2009, the Office of Investigations and Training (OIT) completed its investigation and determined that eight allegations of abuse involving five individual students were substantiated against the agency, Mt. Bachelor Academy. The report indicates that the abuse allegations are "exemplars" in that these five clients' experience is not unique and is "substantially consistent" with the experience of all children enrolled in the program. The report further substantiated an allegation of abuse against the Executive Director. The Executive Director either knew of the abusive practices of the agency, or she should have known what was happening under her authority.[/list]
From the above transcribed Order of Emergency License Suspension (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=30803&p=370132#p370132):
Ultimate Findings of Fact: DHS finds that due to MBA's abuse and neglect of students and violations of the licensing rules listed above, MBA poses a serious danger to public health or safety should MBA be permitted to continue operating as a therapeutic boarding school for children. DHS finds that a condition exists that immediately endangers the health or safety of the children at MBA should MBA be permitted to continue providing therapeutic, educational and residential services to children.[/list]
So there is an indication that the 8 substantiated abuses are typical of what the rest of the students endured in the reports findings. So there is a strong possibility that they will conclude that all the kids (100%) were abused.
...
"Isolated Incident," my ass. It's the program game plan.
DJ, you have worn this out, move on.
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Actually it has plenty more mileage.
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Actually it has plenty more mileage.
Your part of it aren't you, The SICCO Operation. Well I am here to tell you your mileage is running out....lol.
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Yep. And I imagine that a good number of Lifers amongst the former staff went on to other programs, be they other WWASP facilities or some new hybrids... I'm sure you'll want the readers to know this, Whooter.
I think anyone who has been in an industry and has changed jobs (or has done any hiring) knows this. If a guy has 10 – 15 years working in a program and then it gets shut down their marketability is whatever they have done for the past 10 – 15 years and can attain the best salary by staying with what they are experienced in. If the new program has lifesteps then they will do life steps, if it doesn’t then they wont do it. Employees cannot redesign the model.
Why does this continue to be a big deal for you Ursus? You can walk into say Aetna Insurance Company in Hartford today and talk to 100 employees who had previous jobs before taking a job at Aetna and you would find that the lions share or close to 90% (I would be willing to bet) would have come from John Hancock, Prudential, Allstate etc or other insurance companies…. people stick with what they know and what they have experience with. This is not just unique to programs.
...
Who, help me understand something...
You are all about differentiating between good and bad programs. I mean, isn't that kinda like your thing?
- Yes abuse has happened, and that is bad, but today's kinder, gentler programs are lifesavers. -
How come in this story about job-transition that you keep trying to illustrate, you completely neglect to factor in the reality of some programs being bad. You re point, is that the new system, will force these people to do the right thing.... but if in the past, all they did was the wrong thing, then what are their qualifications to begin with? If the current position that they are going to fill, isn t somewhat in alignment with the new position, then why would these other programs hire them? Why not just hire someone off the street?
Also, you are somewhat wrong about the company setting the culture. It is not a completely black and white issue. Generally speaking, the employees are, in big part, the company. People do effect the company culture. Personally, I have never had a job, where, I, personally, did not have a major impact on the business. I have also seen what can happen to a company, when it hires a bunch of the wrong people. Even one bad seed, can often have a huge impact on the overall philosophy of a company, productivity levels, systems, and morale.
A company culture is often defined with a few words, or slogans, but they don t always have to mean anything. Sometimes, they are nothing more then just that- words, and slogans. It is up to the company to seek to hire those who will live up to, and even progress the company culture..
So why of these new programs, hiring people, who do not represent their values, culture, etc.
It is enough to raise curiosity ... Maybe they do represent their values. It's a pretty shitty economy still. Companies get to pick and choose who they hire these days, usually. If it odes not at least raise thought in your mind, then you are choosing not to think.
I'll tell ya right now, I would not invest my money, with a company that has been hiring up all Bernie Madoff's old employees. Is their a chance it is on the up and up? Sure..
But would I risk my money on it? Fuck no!
And I don t think people should risk their kids on those odds either.
Paul St. John
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Your part of it aren't you, The SICCO Operation. Well I am here to tell you your mileage is running out....
Holy Therapeutic Community, Batman!!!
This Bennison means business!
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Yep. And I imagine that a good number of Lifers amongst the former staff went on to other programs, be they other WWASP facilities or some new hybrids... I'm sure you'll want the readers to know this, Whooter.
I think anyone who has been in an industry and has changed jobs (or has done any hiring) knows this. If a guy has 10 – 15 years working in a program and then it gets shut down their marketability is whatever they have done for the past 10 – 15 years and can attain the best salary by staying with what they are experienced in. If the new program has lifesteps then they will do life steps, if it doesn’t then they wont do it. Employees cannot redesign the model.
Why does this continue to be a big deal for you Ursus? You can walk into say Aetna Insurance Company in Hartford today and talk to 100 employees who had previous jobs before taking a job at Aetna and you would find that the lions share or close to 90% (I would be willing to bet) would have come from John Hancock, Prudential, Allstate etc or other insurance companies…. people stick with what they know and what they have experience with. This is not just unique to programs.
...
Who, help me understand something...
You are all about differentiating between good and bad programs. I mean, isn't that kinda like your thing?
- Yes abuse has happened, and that is bad, but today's kinder, gentler programs are lifesavers. -
How come in this story about job-transition that you keep trying to illustrate, you completely neglect to factor in the reality of some programs being bad. You re point, is that the new system, will force these people to do the right thing.... but if in the past, all they did was the wrong thing, then what are their qualifications to begin with? If the current position that they are going to fill, isn t somewhat in alignment with the new position, then why would these other programs hire them? Why not just hire someone off the street?
Also, you are somewhat wrong about the company setting the culture. It is not a completely black and white issue. Generally speaking, the employees are, in big part, the company. People do effect the company culture. Personally, I have never had a job, where, I, personally, did not have a major impact on the business. I have also seen what can happen to a company, when it hires a bunch of the wrong people. Even one bad seed, can often have a huge impact on the overall philosophy of a company, productivity levels, systems, and morale.
A company culture is often defined with a few words, or slogans, but they don t always have to mean anything. Sometimes, they are nothing more then just that- words, and slogans. It is up to the company to seek to hire those who will live up to, and even progress the company culture..
So why of these new programs, hiring people, who do not represent their values, culture, etc.
It is enough to raise curiosity ... Maybe they do represent their values. It's a pretty shitty economy still. Companies get to pick and choose who they hire these days, usually. If it odes not at least raise thought in your mind, then you are choosing not to think.
I'll tell ya right now, I would not invest my money, with a company that has been hiring up all Bernie Madoff's old employees. Is their a chance it is on the up and up? Sure..
But would I risk my money on it? Fuck no!
And I don t think people should risk their kids on those odds either.
Paul St. John
John what your defining here is a big if, you don't know how many transferred and if the company (Aspen) did weed out the bad. You are assuming the worse because you think the worse about Aspen.
Companies have a vision and they pass this on to employees, they also have levels to thwart anyone particular person having the ability to take the company down with a bad act. I don't believe Aspen would be any different considering it is a large wealthy company. Why would they want to keep doing the same thing over and over that is detrimental to there company.
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This isn t really about Aspen. It is about Whooter's cognitive dissonance.
Paul
PS Which Danny are you? My name is Paul, BTW. Hence, it appears before the "St.", and the "John"
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Actually it has plenty more mileage.
Your part of it aren't you, The SICCO Operation. Well I am here to tell you your mileage is running out....lol.
No, I'm part of the non-isolated incident (NII) operation, as well as a proud member of the Village Green Preservation Society.
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Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
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Who, help me understand something...
You are all about differentiating between good and bad programs. I mean, isn't that kinda like your thing?
- Yes abuse has happened, and that is bad, but today's kinder, gentler programs are lifesavers. –
No I think there are still some bad programs around today. But for the most part they are much better.
How come in this story about job-transition that you keep trying to illustrate, you completely neglect to factor in the reality of some programs being bad. You re point, is that the new system, will force these people to do the right thing.... but if in the past, all they did was the wrong thing, then what are their qualifications to begin with? If the current position that they are going to fill, isn t somewhat in alignment with the new position, then why would these other programs hire them? Why not just hire someone off the street?
No, Paul , my point is that the new employee will not force the program to be bad (if it is good).
Companies want to hire people with experience. They want people who are compassionate and educated but also people who have worked with troubled teens before and wont get freaked out and quit if a kid calls them a C*nt or screams at them. They want someone who knows what to expect.
Also, you are somewhat wrong about the company setting the culture. It is not a completely black and white issue. Generally speaking, the employees are, in big part, the company. People do effect the company culture. Personally, I have never had a job, where, I, personally, did not have a major impact on the business. I have also seen what can happen to a company, when it hires a bunch of the wrong people. Even one bad seed, can often have a huge impact on the overall philosophy of a company, productivity levels, systems, and morale.
I have been in business a long time and this is just not true. The culture is defined from the top down (not the other way around). If you truly believe this then all Spring Creek Lodge needed to do is accidently hire one good seed and he would influence everyone and they would all burn down the Hobbit and the kids would run around the campus smoking pot, suffer from the munchies and sleeping in late.
A company culture is often defined with a few words, or slogans, but they don t always have to mean anything. Sometimes, they are nothing more then just that- words, and slogans. It is up to the company to seek to hire those who will live up to, and even progress the company culture..
So why of these new programs, hiring people, who do not represent their values, culture, etc.
It is enough to raise curiosity ... Maybe they do represent their values. It's a pretty shitty economy still. Companies get to pick and choose who they hire these days, usually. If it odes not at least raise thought in your mind, then you are choosing not to think.
I'll tell ya right now, I would not invest my money, with a company that has been hiring up all Bernie Madoff's old employees. Is their a chance it is on the up and up? Sure..
But would I risk my money on it? Fuck no!
And I don t think people should risk their kids on those odds either.
Paul St. John
Paul, My thinking is actually a push back against some of the thinking that goes on here at fornits. Lets say you have a program with 20 counselors and one leaves and you hire a counselor who worked at Spring Creek Lodge. Most people would think nothing of it. But here on fornits all of a sudden the program is labeled CEDU based.
Lets flip it over and say that Spring Creek Lodge (if it were still operating) had 20 Counselors and lost one of their employees and hired a replacement right out of college. Could we utilize the same logic and all breath a sigh of relief and say that’s the end of the Hobbit and the program is much better now?
Does the one employee define the culture? 2, 3 ,4?
I understand that it is not black and white. In fact I fight against this type of thinking. I believe that if an employee were abusive at one program and then moved to another program he would be abusive there also. But there is the interview process that takes place and this helps to screen out this type of employee. Each employee goes thru a brief orientation (sometimes training) to brief them on the companies values.
You have to understand that it is only the extremely narrow minded thinkers which would conclude a that single employee can define or change a companies culture. Bernie Madoff probably had many employees who were very honest. I am sure the employees of Enron stayed within their original fields and were able to get jobs easily without being judged or bringing down every company they worked for.
...
-
Who, help me understand something...
You are all about differentiating between good and bad programs. I mean, isn't that kinda like your thing?
- Yes abuse has happened, and that is bad, but today's kinder, gentler programs are lifesavers. –
No I think there are still some bad programs around today. But for the most part they are much better.
How come in this story about job-transition that you keep trying to illustrate, you completely neglect to factor in the reality of some programs being bad. You re point, is that the new system, will force these people to do the right thing.... but if in the past, all they did was the wrong thing, then what are their qualifications to begin with? If the current position that they are going to fill, isn t somewhat in alignment with the new position, then why would these other programs hire them? Why not just hire someone off the street?
No, Paul , my point is that the new employee will not force the program to be bad (if it is good).
Companies want to hire people with experience. They want people who are compassionate and educated but also people who have worked with troubled teens before and wont get freaked out and quit if a kid calls them a C*nt or screams at them. They want someone who knows what to expect.
I am sorry, Whooter. If I were starting a program tomorrow, I would not hire anyone with associations with programs known for abuse. It is very easy to bullshit your way through an interview, particularly when you are finding it difficult to find work. If the philosophies opf these programs are known to lead to abuse and negative results, then if you really values a different sort of culture, you would start from the ground floor. You would have to reinvent, not just tweak a few things. It is my point of view, that the heart of these programs is flawed, not the extremities.
Also, you are somewhat wrong about the company setting the culture. It is not a completely black and white issue. Generally speaking, the employees are, in big part, the company. People do effect the company culture. Personally, I have never had a job, where, I, personally, did not have a major impact on the business. I have also seen what can happen to a company, when it hires a bunch of the wrong people. Even one bad seed, can often have a huge impact on the overall philosophy of a company, productivity levels, systems, and morale.
I have been in business a long time and this is just not true.
It just is true, Whooter. It does not happen over night, but it does happen. And it happens in companies of all sizes. A single person, with a strong enough personality, can have a massive effect on an environment, and if not effect a whole company, perhaps, at least a single facility. It happens all the time. I am not saying that it necessary will happen here. I was just poking holes in your shield. It is not black and white.
The culture is defined from the top down (not the other way around). If you truly believe this then all Spring Creek Lodge needed to do is accidently hire one good seed and he would influence everyone and they would all burn down the Hobbit and the kids would run around the campus smoking pot, suffer from the munchies and sleeping in late.
This is just silly.
A company culture is often defined with a few words, or slogans, but they don t always have to mean anything. Sometimes, they are nothing more then just that- words, and slogans. It is up to the company to seek to hire those who will live up to, and even progress the company culture..
So why of these new programs, hiring people, who do not represent their values, culture, etc.
It is enough to raise curiosity ... Maybe they do represent their values. It's a pretty shitty economy still. Companies get to pick and choose who they hire these days, usually. If it odes not at least raise thought in your mind, then you are choosing not to think.
I'll tell ya right now, I would not invest my money, with a company that has been hiring up all Bernie Madoff's old employees. Is their a chance it is on the up and up? Sure..
But would I risk my money on it? Fuck no!
And I don t think people should risk their kids on those odds either.
Paul St. John
Paul, My thinking is actually a push back against some of the thinking that goes on here at fornits. Lets say you have a program with 20 counselors and one leaves and you hire a counselor who worked at Spring Creek Lodge. Most people would think nothing of it. But here on fornits all of a sudden the program is labeled CEDU based.
No one actually said that. Ursus, explicitly said, that he was not saying that.. It's more that it is just something worth mentioning...
These programs have a long history of closing and popping up with new names, and a more well thought out image. This is indisputable fact. It has happened so many time.
But hey.. let's take it a step further.. Should these fuckers who hurt people get to go on and start new jobs elsewhere, as those who help kids? Why is this even discussed?
Lets flip it over and say that Spring Creek Lodge (if it were still operating) had 20 Counselors and lost one of their employees and hired a replacement right out of college. Could we utilize the same logic and all breath a sigh of relief and say that’s the end of the Hobbit and the program is much better now?
Does the one employee define the culture? 2, 3 ,4?
A single good person could, in fact, raise the tone quite a bit.
I understand that it is not black and white. In fact I fight against this type of thinking. I believe that if an employee were abusive at one program and then moved to another program he would be abusive there also. But there is the interview process that takes place and this helps to screen out this type of employee. Each employee goes thru a brief orientation (sometimes training) to brief them on the companies values.
[b"]I believe that if an employee were abusive at one program and then moved to another program he would be abusive there also."
This is really all I wanted from you!!!!!! [/b]
You have to understand that it is only the extremely narrow minded thinkers which would conclude a that single employee can define or change a companies culture.
Many of the greatest business leaders of all time, have said that a single bad influence in a company could massively effect an entire company for the worse.
Bernie Madoff probably had many employees who were very honest. I am sure the employees of Enron stayed within their original fields and were able to get jobs easily without being judged or bringing down every company they worked for.
...
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You just seem to keep talking as though people are simply components that you plug into a pre-laid system, and it bothers me, because that is just not even close to how things work. People have their own values, and more times then not, they will find a way to assert them.
Paul
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You just seem to keep talking as though people are simply components that you plug into a pre-laid system, and it bothers me, because that is just not even close to how things work. People have their own values, and more times then not, they will find a way to assert them.
Paul
So based on your thinking why close down Spring Creek Lodge? Why not keep all the employees employed except one and replace that one with a person right out of school who has great moral values. This way the whole culture will change at Spring Creek Lodge and the good of this one person will spread.
Would the average fornits poster then agree that Spring Creek Lodge would be free from abuse?
...
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Whooter, before, I respond to this..
Are you or are you not aware, that you are taking what I said out of context?
Paul
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Actually it has plenty more mileage.
Your part of it aren't you, The SICCO Operation. Well I am here to tell you your mileage is running out....lol.
No, I'm part of the non-isolated incident (NII) operation, as well as a proud member of the Village Green Preservation Society.
Frodie, I love the Kinks. I too am a member. I cannot be a part of your (NII) operation it goes against our charter rules for SICCO.
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No one actually said that. Ursus, explicitly said, that he was not saying that.. It's more that it is just something worth mentioning...
So what is the point, Paul? If a person that is Jewish is hired does that mean it becomes a Jewish based program? Why isn't this ever worth mentioning? Should we point this out every-time? There were thousands of accountants from Enron that left to get other jobs. Are all those companies now tainted somehow because they employ ex-Enron employees? Should this be pointed out to imply that their new company will follow the same path that Enron did?
It amazes me that you don't see this.
...
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Actually it has plenty more mileage.
Your part of it aren't you, The SICCO Operation. Well I am here to tell you your mileage is running out....lol.
No, I'm part of the non-isolated incident (NII) operation, as well as a proud member of the Village Green Preservation Society.
Frodie, I love the Kinks. I too am a member. I cannot be a part of your (NII) operation it goes against our charter rules for SICCO.
Danny, you were at Elan...
A person complains of a headache due to an actual medical condition, they get put in a ring to get their head beat in, and they die.
A person has a severe back problem. A doctor notifies Elan that this person requires surgery. Instead of surgery, this person is focred to do all sorts of "back-breaking" work. her back is permanently disfigured.
A disfigured back
A dead boy
Isolated incidents, or are they connected. They are connected by the mental illness of those who ran the facility.
Danny, you know that the majority of the stories told on this site are by no motherfucking means, isolated incidents. It does not require logic, debate, or semantics. You know it to your fucking bones. Face it!
Paul St. John
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You just seem to keep talking as though people are simply components that you plug into a pre-laid system, and it bothers me, because that is just not even close to how things work. People have their own values, and more times then not, they will find a way to assert them.
Paul
.....and if they do assert them and it differs from the companies values they will be fired the same day. We both know this. If a company goes by the FIFO (First in first out) system and the new accountant reports on LIFO (Last in first out) then he will be retrained or fired. If Home Depot puts their Lawnmowers out front and the guy they hired from Lowes decides he likes Gas Grills out there instead he wont last too long. If Aspen Ranch hires a guy from Spring Creek Lodge and he spends the weekend constructing a Hobbit 40 yards outside the boys dorm he is likely to be fired.
The new employees need to conform to the new place of business and understand how they work there (not the other way around) or they will not last.
...
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No one actually said that. Ursus, explicitly said, that he was not saying that.. It's more that it is just something worth mentioning...
So what is the point, Paul? If a person that is Jewish is hired does that mean it becomes a Jewish based program? Why isn't this ever worth mentioning?
Should we point this out every-time? There were thousands of accountants from Enron that left to get other jobs. Are all those companies now tainted somehow because they employ ex-Enron employees? Should this be pointed out to imply that their new company will follow the same path that Enron did?
It amazes me that you don't see this.
...
There is nothing to see. A lot of what was done in Enron was by the few, and in secret. In the programs, it was done by the many.. It was policy, and it was not a secret.
Paul
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Whooter, before, I respond to this..
Are you or are you not aware, that you are taking what I said out of context?
Paul
I don't see that I am taking it out of context. It actually amazes me that people actually believe this. Companies work Extremely hard to define and build a solid bases for their product and control the quality of their output. A couple of people and their screwy ideals will not change or jeopardize this design.
Do you think a guy working at McDonalds can just show up one day and say "Hey I picked up these Turkey Burgers on the way in tonight, lets try them out on the Big Macs and see how people like them?"
...
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You just seem to keep talking as though people are simply components that you plug into a pre-laid system, and it bothers me, because that is just not even close to how things work. People have their own values, and more times then not, they will find a way to assert them.
Paul
.....and if they do assert them and it differs from the companies values they will be fired the same day. We both know this. If a company goes by the FIFO (First in first out) system and the new accountant reports on LIFO (Last in first out) then he will be retrained or fired. If Home Depot puts their Lawnmowers out front and the guy they hired from Lowes decides he likes Gas Grills out there instead he wont last too long. If Aspen Ranch hires a guy from Spring Creek Lodge and he spends the weekend constructing a Hobbit 40 yards outside the boys dorm he is likely to be fired.
The new employees need to conform to the new place of business and understand how they work there (not the other way around) or they will not last.
...
For the most part, I agree with you, but it all depends on a few things...
The first is whether or not this new program is really all that different in orientation to begin with. We are assuming that it is here, but that is really part of what is questioned. Why did they choose to hire this person.. Again, in my mind, the difference between hurting and helping people is bigger then where you put the lawnmowers, and whether or not you use special sauce.
The second has to do with just how large the company is.. It ia very large well-defined company or not so much so..
Because, if it is very large, there is a question as to how often the head honchos pushing the culture poke their head in...
If it is not that large, and the head guy is always there, it is a question as to how strong this person's will is, and whether or not, they have as much experience as the new bad seed counselor. Can the head person be swayed, because prgram people of the breed that I familiar are master swayers.
and now, I d like to just make a point.. I can t tell you how much a person's attitude can subtly spread across a single location of any company. If a person, in their heart hates kids, I swear to you, that if they are not fired, their attitude can spread, to an extent, and will.
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Whooter, before, I respond to this..
Are you or are you not aware, that you are taking what I said out of context?
Paul
I don't see that I am taking it out of context. It actually amazes me that people actually believe this. Companies work Extremely hard to define and build a solid bases for their product and control the quality of their output. A couple of people and their screwy ideals will not change or jeopardize this design.
Do you think a guy working at McDonalds can just show up one day and say "Hey I picked up these Turkey Burgers on the way in tonight, lets try them out on the Big Macs and see how people like them?"
...
LOL! Whooter, we are not talking about McDonald's. They have been defining their culture for quite some time, but it would not amaze me, if in their first few years, things just as you said, did in fact happen. Although, I don t think that they had turkey burgers then..
Paul
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You just seem to keep talking as though people are simply components that you plug into a pre-laid system, and it bothers me, because that is just not even close to how things work. People have their own values, and more times then not, they will find a way to assert them.
Paul
So based on your thinking why close down Spring Creek Lodge? Why not keep all the employees employed except one and replace that one with a person right out of school who has great moral values. This way the whole culture will change at Spring Creek Lodge and the good of this one person will spread.
Would the average fornits poster then agree that Spring Creek Lodge would be free from abuse?
...
Since, you do not think that you are taking it out of context, I will respond to it..
First of all, I said "could"..
second of all, I said "raise the tone quite a bit"..
Thirdly, it is easier for a bad person to break down synergy, towards a purpose, or value-representation, then it is for a good person to bring about positive change..
Creation is very difficult.... Destruction is very easy.
Paul
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Gotta crash, Whooter.. I will have to respond to anything else tomorrow.
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I am sure that the people at CEDU didnt pre screen their employees to find only those who hated kids. They probably convinced really good people that their tough love approach was helpful. I dont think that you could convince any rational person that all the employees were evil. How would you screen for that?
...
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Paul wrote:
Since, you do not think that you are taking it out of context, I will respond to it..
First of all, I said "could"..
second of all, I said "raise the tone quite a bit"..
Thirdly, it is easier for a bad person to break down synergy, towards a purpose, or value-representation, then it is for a good person to bring about positive change..
Creation is very difficult.... Destruction is very easy.
Paul
Paul this would be a "isolated incident" this one bad person purposely being destructive. This is what I am talking about. I don't believe they sit down and have staff meeting and discuss how they are willingly and knowingly going to abuse the kids this week. I do see that one staff member with psychological problems could go out for that week and create problems. (Isolated Incident)
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Since, you do not think that you are taking it out of context, I will respond to it..
First of all, I said "could"..
second of all, I said "raise the tone quite a bit"..
Thirdly, it is easier for a bad person to break down synergy, towards a purpose, or value-representation, then it is for a good person to bring about positive change..
Creation is very difficult.... Destruction is very easy.
Paul
Well, you make a good point, something to think about. Good talking to you. We can catch up later have a good night.
...
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Paul wrote:
Danny, you were at Elan...
A person complains of a headache due to an actual medical condition, they get put in a ring to get their head beat in, and they die.
A person has a severe back problem. A doctor notifies Elan that this person requires surgery. Instead of surgery, this person is focred to do all sorts of "back-breaking" work. her back is permanently disfigured.
A disfigured back
A dead boy
Isolated incidents, or are they connected. They are connected by the mental illness of those who ran the facility.
Danny, you know that the majority of the stories told on this site are by no motherfucking means, isolated incidents. It does not require logic, debate, or semantics. You know it to your fucking bones. Face it!
Paul St. John
Paul before we go to far into this particular conversation you must know my position on these incidents. First off the gentleman who died in the ring I have yet to corroborate this story with anyone that speaks with credibility. If you can find people who can fine but I will remain neutral on this one for now. This lady with the disfigured back, once again I can not find anyone to corroborate the story.
Paul I'm sorry to say this and will probably take a beating but as far as Elan is concerned there has been so much embellishment to so many stories that I don't have much faith.
That being said, Yes there was abuse at Elan.
Just a normal day of operation would have been abusive, do to the screaming and hollering that went on. Haircuts eg: verbal criticism for something you did wrong shouted at you by four or five people ( even for minor infractions), group therapy eg: encounter groups either being involved screaming at another or just witnessing this.
Paul everyone you have spoken to that went to Elan, knowingly and willingly participated in the abuse in one way or another. Your right at Elan it was not a isolated experience insofar as day to day operations and every house was the same to one degree or another. All of us were involved in this craziness yet there was a part of all of us that wanted it to stop but we were helpless to do it.
Sounds very sad doesn't it, it does.
The employees were fucked from the beginning because they really weren't employees, we were still residents but with a stipend. Joe still treated us no different. None of us Marty, Peter, Jeffery, Marc ect.....He controled you.
So Paul yes and no on the isolated Incident theory concerning Elan, "yes" Elan was a "Isolated Incident" to the extent that Joe controlled everything and "no" as to the many houses Elan had and they were all abusive.
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I am sure that the people at CEDU didnt pre screen their employees to find only those who hated kids. They probably convinced really good people that their tough love approach was helpful. I dont think that you could convince any rational person that all the employees were evil. How would you screen for that?
...
@ Whooter - It's painfully obvious that Cedu did no meaningful pre-employment screening whatsoever. Cedu gladly hired anyone who was desperate enough to work for the crummy $9.00 per hour they were offering. Want proof? Anyone remember James Crummel? He was a lifelong serial child rapist & murderer who worked at Cedu RS for almost 3 years during the mid 1990's. At the time he started working at Cedu, Crummel had already served several prison sentences for child molesting & manslaughter - and had a criminal history spanning over 3 decades! Of course nobody at Cedu bothered to check Crummel out before giving him a job - they just figured he's a regular guy who'd fit right in. How typical of Cedu. The result? At least one student: Blake Presley, disappeared without a trace during the time Crummel worked at Cedu. Coincidence? The police don't seem to think so. Crummel is now the prime suspect in Blake Presley's disappearance, a case that remains unsolved after some 15 years. After his employment at Cedu, James Crummel was convicted of three more murders and is currently on death row awaiting execution.
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Paul wrote:
Danny, you were at Elan...
A person complains of a headache due to an actual medical condition, they get put in a ring to get their head beat in, and they die.
A person has a severe back problem. A doctor notifies Elan that this person requires surgery. Instead of surgery, this person is focred to do all sorts of "back-breaking" work. her back is permanently disfigured.
A disfigured back
A dead boy
Isolated incidents, or are they connected. They are connected by the mental illness of those who ran the facility.
Danny, you know that the majority of the stories told on this site are by no motherfucking means, isolated incidents. It does not require logic, debate, or semantics. You know it to your fucking bones. Face it!
Paul St. John
Paul before we go to far into this particular conversation you must know my position on these incidents. First off the gentleman who died in the ring I have yet to corroborate this story with anyone that speaks with credibility.
I have been hearing the story since I first started looking into all this shit about 9 years ago.. I can t say that I know for sure, but I think that even you can agree that the odds are that it is true.
If you can find people who can fine but I will remain neutral on this one for now. This lady with the disfigured back, once again I can not find anyone to corroborate the story.
I have found three, and they are all credible. They tell the story with such emotion too. One of the people who told me about it is the person it happened too. I told ya I don t gamble, and I d bet ya this one's true. I believe it as if I had seen myself
Paul I'm sorry to say this and will probably take a beating but as far as Elan is concerned there has been so much embellishment to so many stories that I don't have much faith.
That being said, Yes there was abuse at Elan.
Just a normal day of operation would have been abusive, do to the screaming and hollering that went on. Haircuts eg: verbal criticism for something you did wrong shouted at you by four or five people ( even for minor infractions), group therapy eg: encounter groups either being involved screaming at another or just witnessing this.
All these things that you mention occurred at Daytop, and worse.(1994) If you did something considered bad enough, you'd get your haircut in front of the whole "family", and anyone who wanted to, got a turn... you could get screamed at for over an hour. Far worse thing happened at Elan, and you know it.
Paul everyone you have spoken to that went to Elan, knowingly and willingly participated in the abuse in one way or another.
What is meant by "willingly"?
Your right at Elan it was not a isolated experience insofar as day to day operations and every house was the same to one degree or another. All of us were involved in this craziness yet there was a part of all of us that wanted it to stop but we were helpless to do it.
Sounds very sad doesn't it, it does.
The employees were fucked from the beginning because they really weren't employees, we were still residents but with a stipend. Joe still treated us no different. None of us Marty, Peter, Jeffery, Marc ect.....He controled you.
Someday, you will have to take responsibility, Danny...
So Paul yes and no on the isolated Incident theory concerning Elan, "yes" Elan was a "Isolated Incident" to the extent that Joe controlled everything and "no" as to the many houses Elan had and they were all abusive.
Your response was kinda weird.. but what I take from it is that you are admitting that abuse was not an isolated incident, but rather the norm at Elan.
But you do think that Elan, itself , was an isolated incident as far as an abusive program, and that this is due to Joe Ricci's controlling everything.
Well, I am, at least glad that we have established that much.
At Elan, abuse was not an isolated incident.
You just haven t accepted that Elan wasn t the only one. In case, you haven t noticed, there are a lot of sections to Fornits. I d bet there are sure a lot of people who would disagree with you.
Paul
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:seg2:
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Paul wrote:
Danny, you were at Elan...
A person complains of a headache due to an actual medical condition, they get put in a ring to get their head beat in, and they die.
A person has a severe back problem. A doctor notifies Elan that this person requires surgery. Instead of surgery, this person is focred to do all sorts of "back-breaking" work. her back is permanently disfigured.
A disfigured back
A dead boy
Isolated incidents, or are they connected. They are connected by the mental illness of those who ran the facility.
Danny, you know that the majority of the stories told on this site are by no motherfucking means, isolated incidents. It does not require logic, debate, or semantics. You know it to your fucking bones. Face it!
Paul St. John
Paul before we go to far into this particular conversation you must know my position on these incidents. First off the gentleman who died in the ring I have yet to corroborate this story with anyone that speaks with credibility.
I have been hearing the story since I first started looking into all this shit about 9 years ago.. I can t say that I know for sure, but I think that even you can agree that the odds are that it is true.
You have not been hearing about from eye witnesses for nine years, I been hearing it for a hell a lot longer then that. I made my point, you have every right to disagree but until I have more facts it is but another story.
If you can find people who can fine but I will remain neutral on this one for now. This lady with the disfigured back, once again I can not find anyone to corroborate the story.
I have found three, and they are all credible. They tell the story with such emotion too. One of the people who told me about it is the person it happened too. I told ya I don t gamble, and I d bet ya this one's true. I believe it as if I had seen myself
I have also heard her story but there have been no witnesses.
Paul I'm sorry to say this and will probably take a beating but as far as Elan is concerned there has been so much embellishment to so many stories that I don't have much faith.
That being said, Yes there was abuse at Elan.
Just a normal day of operation would have been abusive, do to the screaming and hollering that went on. Haircuts eg: verbal criticism for something you did wrong shouted at you by four or five people ( even for minor infractions), group therapy eg: encounter groups either being involved screaming at another or just witnessing this.
All these things that you mention occurred at Daytop, and worse.(1994) If you did something considered bad enough, you'd get your haircut in front of the whole "family", and anyone who wanted to, got a turn... you could get screamed at for over an hour. Far worse thing happened at Elan, and you know it.
Paul please don't tell me about Elan, what I should have or could have experienced concerning abuse...OK. I don't care how many folks you talked with about Elan or for how many years, I have personally been at Elan or at the very least on the periphery for at least 30 years. I know about Elan, I am not blind.
Paul everyone you have spoken to that went to Elan, knowingly and willingly participated in the abuse in one way or another.
What is meant by "willingly"?
Just what I said...you did not misread.
Your right at Elan it was not a isolated experience insofar as day to day operations and every house was the same to one degree or another. All of us were involved in this craziness yet there was a part of all of us that wanted it to stop but we were helpless to do it.
Sounds very sad doesn't it, it does.
The employees were fucked from the beginning because they really weren't employees, we were still residents but with a stipend. Joe still treated us no different. None of us Marty, Peter, Jeffery, Marc ect.....He controled you.
Someday, you will have to take responsibility, Danny...
Paul, why don't you step back...ok. Your out of line with that comment.
So Paul yes and no on the isolated Incident theory concerning Elan, "yes" Elan was a "Isolated Incident" to the extent that Joe controlled everything and "no" as to the many houses Elan had and they were all abusive.
Your response was kinda weird.. but what I take from it is that you are admitting that abuse was not an isolated incident, but rather the norm at Elan.
What I meant was Elan was unique in and of itself. So as far as the TTI being inherently abusive, I disagree with you, I don't believe that treatment centers are that way. I do believe we have some "isolated incidents" of abusiveness in programs and there have been "isolated incidents" where the whole program from ground up was abusive.
But you do think that Elan, itself , was an isolated incident as far as an abusive program, and that this is due to Joe Ricci's controlling everything.
I do because he did.
Well, I am, at least glad that we have established that much.
I don't think "WE" have established anything, Paul. I don't believe your in a position to establish anything when it comes to Joe Ricci and Elan.
At Elan, abuse was not an isolated incident.
Oh, yes it was but you keep telling yourself whatever you want.
You just haven t accepted that Elan wasn t the only one. In case, you haven t noticed, there are a lot of sections to Fornits. I d bet there are sure a lot of people who would disagree with you.
Paul, there goes your perception again. Your judging me which is not wrong (per say) but your missing the bullseye because of it. I did not say that Elan was the only place there was abuse. I have it first hand from multiple people that Straight Inc. was outrageously abusive, do I know this personally no, I take on faith. I practically live with many of these people, they are my friends. Funny Paul they will not come on this site because of it extremism.
Listen get pissed at me all you want but I am not going to accept stories that are not validated or charges of abuse just because someone said so.
Paul
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Paul wrote:
Danny, you were at Elan...
A person complains of a headache due to an actual medical condition, they get put in a ring to get their head beat in, and they die.
A person has a severe back problem. A doctor notifies Elan that this person requires surgery. Instead of surgery, this person is focred to do all sorts of "back-breaking" work. her back is permanently disfigured.
A disfigured back
A dead boy
Isolated incidents, or are they connected. They are connected by the mental illness of those who ran the facility.
Danny, you know that the majority of the stories told on this site are by no motherfucking means, isolated incidents. It does not require logic, debate, or semantics. You know it to your fucking bones. Face it!
Paul St. John
Paul before we go to far into this particular conversation you must know my position on these incidents. First off the gentleman who died in the ring I have yet to corroborate this story with anyone that speaks with credibility.
I have been hearing the story since I first started looking into all this shit about 9 years ago.. I can t say that I know for sure, but I think that even you can agree that the odds are that it is true.
You have not been hearing about from eye witnesses for nine years, I been hearing it for a hell a lot longer then that. I made my point, you have every right to disagree but until I have more facts it is but another story.
I never said it was from eyewitness accounts. Congratulations on hearing about it a lot longer then me. Yeah.. I know that you made your point, and I do
disagree. I think that it did happen. If you don t - that's fine.
If you can find people who can fine but I will remain neutral on this one for now. This lady with the disfigured back, once again I can not find anyone to corroborate the story.
I have found three, and they are all credible. They tell the story with such emotion too. One of the people who told me about it is the person it happened too. I told ya I don t gamble, and I d bet ya this one's true. I believe it as if I had seen myself
I have also heard her story but there have been no witnesses.
Well, there is her, and 2 other people. The 2 others suffice for witnesses in my book. Besides, why would she lie? Why do you defend Elan?
Paul I'm sorry to say this and will probably take a beating but as far as Elan is concerned there has been so much embellishment to so many stories that I don't have much faith.
That being said, Yes there was abuse at Elan.
Just a normal day of operation would have been abusive, do to the screaming and hollering that went on. Haircuts eg: verbal criticism for something you did wrong shouted at you by four or five people ( even for minor infractions), group therapy eg: encounter groups either being involved screaming at another or just witnessing this.
All these things that you mention occurred at Daytop, and worse.(1994) If you did something considered bad enough, you'd get your haircut in front of the whole "family", and anyone who wanted to, got a turn... you could get screamed at for over an hour. Far worse thing happened at Elan, and you know it.
Paul please don't tell me about Elan, what I should have or could have experienced concerning abuse...OK. I don't care how many folks you talked with about Elan or for how many years, I have personally been at Elan or at the very least on the periphery for at least 30 years. I know about Elan, I am not blind.
Okay... I am not trying to tell ya about it. I am only saying that you are making it sound a lot better then it was. I will tell ya that, even though I wasn t there.
Paul everyone you have spoken to that went to Elan, knowingly and willingly participated in the abuse in one way or another.
What is meant by "willingly"?
Just what I said...you did not misread.
Just wanted to make sure.. ..
It doesn t make sense. Here, you make it sound like people did it because they wanted to.. Later on, in your post, you act as though Joe Ricci made people do
it.
Your right at Elan it was not a isolated experience insofar as day to day operations and every house was the same to one degree or another. All of us were involved in this craziness yet there was a part of all of us that wanted it to stop but we were helpless to do it.
Sounds very sad doesn't it, it does.
The employees were fucked from the beginning because they really weren't employees, we were still residents but with a stipend. Joe still treated us no different. None of us Marty, Peter, Jeffery, Marc ect.....He controled you.
Someday, you will have to take responsibility, Danny...
Paul, why don't you step back...ok. Your out of line with that comment.
I'm really not danny.. Life is too short, to be dishonest, and I would be dishonest, if I did not say that.
So Paul yes and no on the isolated Incident theory concerning Elan, "yes" Elan was a "Isolated Incident" to the extent that Joe controlled everything and "no" as to the many houses Elan had and they were all abusive.
Your response was kinda weird.. but what I take from it is that you are admitting that abuse was not an isolated incident, but rather the norm at Elan.
What I meant was Elan was unique in and of itself. So as far as the TTI being inherently abusive, I disagree with you, I don't believe that treatment centers are that way. I do believe we have some "isolated incidents" of abusiveness in programs and there have been "isolated incidents" where the whole program from ground up was abusive.
I don't know.. When you put it that way, danny.. It does not sound all that isolated.
But you do think that Elan, itself , was an isolated incident as far as an abusive program, and that this is due to Joe Ricci's controlling everything.
I do because he did.
I didn t question it. You are getting defensive. i just wanted to make sure that I understand you. You wrote quite a bit.... and the only thing in question is
whether or not the abuse in programs is all isolated incidents. i was just trying to extract your answer from you wrote.
Well, I am, at least glad that we have established that much.
I don't think "WE" have established anything, Paul. I don't believe your in a position to establish anything when it comes to Joe Ricci and Elan.
Nor, do I say I was.. .. I was only saying that between you and I we have established that abuse in Elan was not an isolated incident.. I am pretty sure that
that is what you were trying to say.. that generally abuse in TTI's can be referred to isolated incidents, but that in Elan it was not.. Isn t that what you meant?
At Elan, abuse was not an isolated incident.
Oh, yes it was but you keep telling yourself whatever you want.
LOL! I'm really not sure what is going on here, Danny.. I thought that you said that it wasn t.. I feel like I am conversing with a schitzophrenic.
You just haven t accepted that Elan wasn t the only one. In case, you haven t noticed, there are a lot of sections to Fornits. I d bet there are sure a lot of people who would disagree with you.
Paul, there goes your perception again. Your judging me which is not wrong (per say) but your missing the bullseye because of it. I did not say that Elan was the only place there was abuse. I have it first hand from multiple people that Straight Inc. was outrageously abusive, do I know this personally no, I take on faith. I
That is what I took from what you wrote, Danny.. I am not trying to push any idea, or draw any p[icture... I was only trying to make sense of what you wrote..
Do you want to start again? I think it would be a good idea... Why not start with a fresh page and scrap, all this back and forth...
practically live with many of these people, they are my friends. Funny Paul they will not come on this site because of it extremism.
:waaaa:
Sorry Danny.. couldn t resist...
Listen get pissed at me all you want but I am not going to accept stories that are not validated or charges of abuse just because someone said so.
Danny, I am not even a little bit mad.. a tad more confused...
If you want my honest opinion, and you are probably gonna blow your stack about this one- you may be in less of a position to judge Elan then I. You can t be
objective when it comes to it. You get emotional and defensive, and you go on the attack..
Paul
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I don't think "WE" have established anything, Paul. I don't believe your in a position to establish anything when it comes to Joe Ricci and Elan.
Ya know, I thought about what you wrote here, and I was unhappy with my response.. I had to come back to it.
Why the fuck aren t I in a position to establish anything about Joe Ricci or Elan? What are they magic or something? Are you special for having experienced them.
I am fully in a position to gather information, and use my mind to draw conclusions and seek understanding of any topic, I have never been to the sun, but that does not mean that I am off limits to have thoughts on it.
Paul St. John
PS You don t own the Elan experience. It will come out into the light.
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Danny, you were at Elan...
A person complains of a headache due to an actual medical condition, they get put in a ring to get their head beat in, and they die.
A person has a severe back problem. A doctor notifies Elan that this person requires surgery. Instead of surgery, this person is focred to do all sorts of "back-breaking" work. her back is permanently disfigured.
A disfigured back
A dead boy
Isolated incidents, or are they connected. They are connected by the mental illness of those who ran the facility.
Danny, you know that the majority of the stories told on this site are by no motherfucking means, isolated incidents. It does not require logic, debate, or semantics. You know it to your fucking bones. Face it!
Paul St. John
Paul before we go to far into this particular conversation you must know my position on these incidents. First off the gentleman who died in the ring I have yet to corroborate this story with anyone that speaks with credibility. If you can find people who can fine but I will remain neutral on this one for now.
I have been hearing the story since I first started looking into all this shit about 9 years ago.. I can t say that I know for sure, but I think that even you can agree that the odds are that it is true.
You have not been hearing about from eye witnesses for nine years, I been hearing it for a hell a lot longer then that. I made my point, you have every right to disagree but until I have more facts it is but another story.
I never said it was from eyewitness accounts. Congratulations on hearing about it a lot longer then me. Yeah.. I know that you made your point, and I do
disagree. I think that it did happen. If you don t - that's fine.
Paul first I will gather myself and speak with a more composed character.
I grow tired of inaccurate accounts of incidents that happened at Elan, which are never corroborated, so folks who tried to find the truth but could not, got anxious and went with a story that is not necessarily factual. I just want to know the truth that's all.
But if all you have is, "I think it happened". That is not enough to throw at Elan and have it stick.
This lady with the disfigured back, once again I can not find anyone to corroborate the story.
I have found three, and they are all credible. They tell the story with such emotion too. One of the people who told me about it is the person it happened too. I told ya I don t gamble, and I d bet ya this one's true. I believe it as if I had seen myself
I have also heard her story but there have been no witnesses.
Well, there is her, and 2 other people. The 2 others suffice for witnesses in my book. Besides, why would she lie? Why do you defend Elan?
Because I am questioning the validity of a story, you rebut by questioning my loyalties. I have no loyalty to Elan my friend, so therefore I have no reason to defend Elan. My sole reasoning for asking questions (as I have for 23 years) is to have the truth. No glorified or glamorized rag-mag story, like we saw during the Michael Skakel episode, so we can capture the audience. I just want the unaltered truth. Elan has stories that I don't even tell because I want them authenticated, I continue to this day tracking folks down to get their side of the story.
Here is a undocumented story that no one could witness, I was offered $65,000.00 for my story of the Michael Skakel interview I conducted, when he first arrived. That is the truth but I don't say it much and it will never be in a book because CBS News will never admit it. So Paul it is just a uncorroborated story, something to say as far as I'm concerned.
Yes I know you talked with the lady, Paul but the others did not actually witness the punishment, they heard of it. I have heard them speak of it also and one of the speakers Paul, is known to embellish stories with his emotions.
Paul I'm sorry to say this and will probably take a beating but as far as Elan is concerned there has been so much embellishment to so many stories that I don't have much faith.
That being said, Yes there was abuse at Elan.
Just a normal day of operation would have been abusive, do to the screaming and hollering that went on. Haircuts eg: verbal criticism for something you did wrong shouted at you by four or five people ( even for minor infractions), group therapy eg: encounter groups either being involved screaming at another or just witnessing this.
All these things that you mention occurred at Daytop, and worse.(1994) If you did something considered bad enough, you'd get your haircut in front of the whole "family", and anyone who wanted to, got a turn... you could get screamed at for over an hour. Far worse thing happened at Elan, and you know it.
Paul please don't tell me about Elan, what I should have or could have experienced concerning abuse...OK. I don't care how many folks you talked with about Elan or for how many years, I have personally been at Elan or at the very least on the periphery for at least 30 years. I know about Elan, I am not blind.
Okay... I am not trying to tell ya about it. I am only saying that you are making it sound a lot better then it was. I will tell ya that, even though I wasn t there.
I was not aware that I was making Elan "sound better", Paul. I find it shocking you would say that.
Hey....Paul!!!!!! I know Elan was a Hell Hole, OK.
We are talking about stories that are not authenticated yet, as far I as am concerned.
Paul everyone you have spoken to that went to Elan, knowingly and willingly participated in the abuse in one way or another.
What is meant by "willingly"?
Just what I said...you did not misread.
Just wanted to make sure.. ..
It doesn t make sense. Here, you make it sound like people did it because they wanted to.. Later on, in your post, you act as though Joe Ricci made people do
it.
Paul, realistically speaking how can Joe have that much control, I think I was talking to freely then. What I meant is Joe built the behavior therapeutic/abusive model for Elan and passed it on to the Directors which passed it on to the Staff and on and on............
Joe
Regional Director
Directors
Ass.Directors
Staff
Full Coordinators
Coordinators
Shingle Expediter
Dept.Heads
Full Expediters
Ramrods
Workers
This is how it was passed down. Do I think Joe wanted his treatment center to be abusive....hell no. Problem was, Joe was a very sick man who never really got help himself, so as his world crumbled, starting in the early 70's, Elan got sicker and sicker.
Most Elanians after they left shook off the bullshit they went through and went on with life but some of us can't do that. It lingered and we felt we should do something about it. So here we are.
I said people did it, "knowingly and willingly" well that is the truth, we knew what we were doing was wrong and we did it any ways.
There wasn't always peer pressure or the fear of punishment, sometimes it was what we came to Elan with, a low self esteem and a desire to fit in. These conditions compelled us to act as the group.
I am not arguing the energy of peer pressure and the threat of punishment to coerce a person to do something but there is also the need to fit in no matter what.
Think about it, Paul in Daytop you had a house full of folks running around with a low self esteem willing to do anything, "to look good" remember those folks. I felt bad for those people.
Your right at Elan it was not a isolated experience insofar as day to day operations and every house was the same to one degree or another. All of us were involved in this craziness yet there was a part of all of us that wanted it to stop but we were helpless to do it.
Sounds very sad doesn't it, it does.
The employees were fucked from the beginning because they really weren't employees, we were still residents but with a stipend. Joe still treated us no different. None of us Marty, Peter, Jeffery, Marc ect.....He controled you.
Someday, you will have to take responsibility, Danny...
Paul, why don't you step back...ok. Your out of line with that comment.
I'm really not danny.. Life is too short, to be dishonest, and I would be dishonest, if I did not say that.
Paul, regardless of what you read into my responses to your posts, I have taken full responsibility for my actions as a resident and a employee. My god, family, friends and myself know this. I really do not need to say more.
Now back to the issue at hand, I said Joe controlled us and that was correct because we allowed him to. The alternative was to be fired or quit. Which is what I did.
Paul I apologize for my writings being all over the place, I can get lost in my thoughts sometimes, while I am trying to write.
Paul I took the liberty to erase all that garbage I wrote and I'll start again......
Listen get pissed at me all you want but I am not going to accept stories that are not validated or charges of abuse just because someone said so. [/color]
Danny, I am not even a little bit mad.. a tad more confused...
If you want my honest opinion, and you are probably gonna blow your stack about this one- you may be in less of a position to judge Elan then I. You can't be objective when it comes to it. You get emotional and defensive, and you go on the attack..
Paul
I guess I do get a little emotional, the evidence was clear. I will say this Paul, my ability to be clear about Elan has never wavered at all then or now.
If anything I have been very hard on some of my friends with different opinions then mine. Basically, for what your excusing me of.......lol.
Paul I am willing to explore this more with you.
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I don't think "WE" have established anything, Paul. I don't believe your in a position to establish anything when it comes to Joe Ricci and Elan.
Ya know, I thought about what you wrote here, and I was unhappy with my response.. I had to come back to it.
Why the fuck aren t I in a position to establish anything about Joe Ricci or Elan? What are they magic or something? Are you special for having experienced them.
I am fully in a position to gather information, and use my mind to draw conclusions and seek understanding of any topic, I have never been to the sun, but that does not mean that I am off limits to have thoughts on it.
Paul St. John
PS You don t own the Elan experience. It will come out into the light.[/size]
It already has Paul, what Mat, Felice, Sharon and all the others are doing is great but the story is already out there. There are literally thousands upon thousands of Elanians that know the story and they have told others. Well you do the math, publishing a book will not crystallize the abusive experience any more then what we already know it to be. Something I and others have learned along our way of gathering information.
Yes it will be a story to tell everyone who will read and listen but I want this to really be about Elanians for Elanians and the their loved ones.
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Paul wrote:
Danny, you were at Elan...
A person complains of a headache due to an actual medical condition, they get put in a ring to get their head beat in, and they die.
A person has a severe back problem. A doctor notifies Elan that this person requires surgery. Instead of surgery, this person is focred to do all sorts of "back-breaking" work. her back is permanently disfigured.
A disfigured back
A dead boy
Isolated incidents, or are they connected. They are connected by the mental illness of those who ran the facility.
Danny, you know that the majority of the stories told on this site are by no motherfucking means, isolated incidents. It does not require logic, debate, or semantics. You know it to your fucking bones. Face it!
Paul St. John
Danny Paul is telling the truth I was in the house with her we were in 3 then 6 and we graduated together the same day! she did need surgery ,,, she didnt have the surgery until she was out of elan 2 YEARS later and by then the damage was so great they couldnt fix it ,,, Danny you know her but shes my friend and I will not post her name out of respect.
The boy who died in the ring,,, well I wasnt there but I have heard this story for many years now different ppl different times on boards and in chats, so is it true well you know what they say if more then 3 ppl say it buy a saddle...
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Paul wrote:
Danny, you were at Elan...
A person complains of a headache due to an actual medical condition, they get put in a ring to get their head beat in, and they die.
A person has a severe back problem. A doctor notifies Elan that this person requires surgery. Instead of surgery, this person is focred to do all sorts of "back-breaking" work. her back is permanently disfigured.
A disfigured back
A dead boy
Isolated incidents, or are they connected. They are connected by the mental illness of those who ran the facility.
Danny, you know that the majority of the stories told on this site are by no motherfucking means, isolated incidents. It does not require logic, debate, or semantics. You know it to your fucking bones. Face it!
Paul St. John
Danny Paul is telling the truth I was in the house with her we were in 3 then 6 and we graduated together the same day! she did need surgery ,,, she didnt have the surgery until she was out of elan 2 YEARS later and by then the damage was so great they couldnt fix it ,,, Danny you know her but shes my friend and I will not post her name out of respect.
The boy who died in the ring,,, well I wasnt there but I have heard this story for many years now different ppl different times on boards and in chats, so is it true well you know what they say if more then 3 ppl say it buy a saddle...
WTF2,
I am not questioning Pauls integrity, I have seen Pauls contributions on fornits, back 6-7 years ago concerning Elan. He had a infatuation with Ken Z. for a while there...lol. I think you can appreciate what I am saying about stories being blown out of proportion. We all know Elan was extremely abusive, I am not arguing that. I just want us to stick to the facts about what happened there. So it can be documented accurately.
If I know her, then you know me too????? I need to talk in a PM if that is alright.
Concerning the death, well I have said all I want to about that. I have a profound sadness about this and I can only hope that this if true makes it to the proper authorities.
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My stories are true and I never embellish!!!!! elan was sick and twisted like the people who ran it
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Paul wrote:
Danny, you were at Elan...
A person complains of a headache due to an actual medical condition, they get put in a ring to get their head beat in, and they die.
A person has a severe back problem. A doctor notifies Elan that this person requires surgery. Instead of surgery, this person is focred to do all sorts of "back-breaking" work. her back is permanently disfigured.
A disfigured back
A dead boy
Isolated incidents, or are they connected. They are connected by the mental illness of those who ran the facility.
Danny, you know that the majority of the stories told on this site are by no motherfucking means, isolated incidents. It does not require logic, debate, or semantics. You know it to your fucking bones. Face it!
Paul St. John
Danny Paul is telling the truth I was in the house with her we were in 3 then 6 and we graduated together the same day! she did need surgery ,,, she didnt have the surgery until she was out of elan 2 YEARS later and by then the damage was so great they couldnt fix it ,,, Danny you know her but shes my friend and I will not post her name out of respect.
The boy who died in the ring,,, well I wasnt there but I have heard this story for many years now different ppl different times on boards and in chats, so is it true well you know what they say if more then 3 ppl say it buy a saddle...
---------------
I was kinda hoping you'd come across this exchange, and chime in. Thanks WTF!
Danny, here is one of the witnesses. She did not hear of it. She saw it. Then there is also the person who experienced, and I have spoken to one other person who witnessed it. ( as in saw it). You say that he is known to embellish with his emotions. But the only person who has ever said that is you. You would have to bring forth witnesses if we are to have it otherwise documented.. kinda kidding but not ... I don't think the person embelishes, and if you want me to accept otherwise, I think he deserves, at least, as fair a trial, as you grant Elan.
Paul St. John
PS This has nothing to do with my integrity either way. It's about what happened, and if you do not accept the reality of it, you are calling the integrity of 3 others into question.
The only thing about me you are calling into question, is my character judgement of others.
WTF2, be well...
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He had a infatuation with Ken Z. for a while there...lol
He was the most accessible of perpetrators.
Later, it became a bit more personal, when he started calling and harassing a friend of mine, every time she posted here, about her experiences. He utilized his past role as her counselor, in attempts to manipulate her.
He also told her that I was dangerous. LOL!
Did you know that I spoke to him on the phone? He could not even muster up a response to anything that I said to him.
He underestimated the power of good people working together. This woman got a lot of support from a lot of people here. His bullshit was no match.
It's things like this that matter to me, Danny... not all this documentation bullshit, or whatever possesses your friends, that you practically live with, to feel as they do about this place.
Paul St. John
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He had a infatuation with Ken Z. for a while there...lol
He was the most accessible of perpetrators.
Later, it became a bit more personal, when he started calling and harassing a friend of mine, every time she posted here, about her experiences. He utilized his past role as her counselor, in attempts to manipulate her.
He also told her that I was dangerous. LOL!
Did you know that I spoke to him on the phone? He could not even muster up a response to anything that I said to him.
He underestimated the power of good people working together. This woman got a lot of support from a lot of people here. His bullshit was no match.
It's things like this that matter to me, Danny... not all this documentation bullshit, or whatever possesses your friends, that you practically live with, to feel as they do about this place.
Paul St. John
I would like to take the rest of this conversation to a PM format, please.
I realized we are talking about people's personal lives here and it is probably not considerate to do it in public.
thanks
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We're talking about a girl whose back was treated much the same way as John McCain's arms were at the hands of the Viet Cong, and you're talking about it not being considerate to talk about people's personal lives.
This is why the topic title is such a fucking joke.
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We're talking about a girl whose back was treated much the same way as John McCain's arms were at the hands of the Viet Cong, and you're talking about it not being considerate to talk about people's personal lives.
This is why the topic title is such a fucking joke.
If you don't like it go start your own thread, otherwise why don't you pretend your civil, Pile. Those were the rules,"Awake" asked us to abide by.
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I would like to take the rest of this conversation to a PM format, please.
I realized we are talking about people's personal lives here and it is probably not considerate to do it in public.
thanks.
We're talking about a girl whose back was treated much the same way as John McCain's arms were at the hands of the Viet Cong, and you're talking about it not being considerate to talk about people's personal lives.
This is why the topic title is such a fucking joke.
If you don't like it go start your own thread, otherwise why don't you pretend your civil, Pile. Those were the rules,"Awake" asked us to abide by.
I was wondering when I would get called out on this thread, a ‘Civil Discussion’ about the TTI. I have found it very difficult to talk ‘civilly’ about an industry that contains so much that is ‘uncivil’, and may even represent a dividing line in our society between what is considered civil and what is not. How can we have a ‘civil’ discussion, with opponents and proponents of the industry, when the topic is to discern what is socially acceptable as it concerns the use and abuse of programs and methods that are unacceptable in civilian society, and imposes a situation upon a person that denies their autonomy as a citizen and a person.
Pile, I think, has identified a particular point of conflict in that there are programs that have, in one way or another, been the progenitors of outright abuses that have caused considerable harm, physical and otherwise. In this case I think we should weigh what is more civil, to allow programs to act at the societal level without scrutiny, or, impolitely discuss the nature of a TTI transgression without the consent of the individual(s) ? Is the forced, abusive situation something that should only be identified if everyone involved openly chooses to, or, should we be able to identify for ourselves a situation that is happening to someone else that we would generally consider abusive, especially when the victims may be deterred from openly discussing it for some reason?
All in all, it’s an unfair position to be put in when trying to discuss the improprieties in the TTI, which I would add to the list.
I have run into my own conflict concerning talks about the TTI, only on the opposite end of the spectrum as it concerns the most fundamental aspects of programs and covert abuses that generally occur out of that framework.
It is clear to me that no program supporter can maintain their position in the face of their own prescription, even in the most passive, acceptable, and ‘civil’ of circumstances advertised by programs.
To make it clearer, the proponents believe in forced therapy in the current form, and the opponents don’t. This is a clear division on what we think is ‘civil’. So how are we to discuss this in a civil manner?
Recently I tried to demonstrate to some program supporters the fault behind their thinking by challenging them to face their own prescription. It only took a few transactions, (clearly within todays ethical standards), before it was deemed ‘uncivilized’ and I was attacked for it by industry proponents.
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30775 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30775)
So I have a couple problems, first is that if an industry supporter runs so quickly from their own prescription, are they really willing to openly evaluate the harm presented even in the most basic characteristics of the TTI, and should that weigh in on their overall opinion?
And Second, If the program prescription is re-written to address their ‘faulty’ belief in forced therapy, and it successfully works to stop outward behavior that exemplifies that support, is that a successful individual treatment model? And does the proponents’ belief justify a decidedly ‘civil’ use of that kind of thinking by opponents to illustrate the position being advocated?
I don’t see how proponents can come to an appropriate ethical conclusion for the use of programs without doing so.
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All in all, it’s an unfair position to be put in when trying to discuss the improprieties in the TTI, which I would add to the list.
I have run into my own conflict concerning talks about the TTI, only on the opposite end of the spectrum as it concerns the most fundamental aspects of programs and covert abuses that generally occur out of that framework.
It is clear to me that no program supporter can maintain their position in the face of their own prescription, even in the most passive, acceptable, and ‘civil’ of circumstances advertised by programs.
To make it clearer, the proponents believe in forced therapy in the current form, and the opponents don’t. This is a clear division on what we think is ‘civil’. So how are we to discuss this in a civil manner?
Recently I tried to demonstrate to some program supporters the fault behind their thinking by challenging them to face their own prescription. It only took a few transactions, (clearly within todays ethical standards), before it was deemed ‘uncivilized’ and I was attacked for it by industry proponents.
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30775 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30775)
So I have a couple problems, first is that if an industry supporter runs so quickly from their own prescription, are they really willing to openly evaluate the harm presented even in the most basic characteristics of the TTI, and should that weigh in on their overall opinion?
And Second, If the program prescription is re-written to address their ‘faulty’ belief in forced therapy, and it successfully works to stop outward behavior that exemplifies that support, is that a successful individual treatment model? And does the proponents’ belief justify a decidedly ‘civil’ use of that kind of thinking by opponents to illustrate the position being advocated?
I don’t see how proponents can come to an appropriate ethical conclusion for the use of programs without doing so.
I think one problem you are having at trying to have a civil discussion is that you have already made up your mind. You may not be willing to open up your mind and consider both sides of the issue or see the other persons point of view.
I have been attacked, also, awake for taking a middle position in that there are programs which are abusive and those which are helpful. Imagine how badly I would be attacked if I felt all programs were great!
One approach may be to discuss all aspects of the industry (not just the therapy) one at a time. For instance I think people may more easily agree that a child should be removed from a toxic environment. Besides therapy the programs offer behavior modification, a structured setting, academics. Etc.
Forced therapy can happen locally. Very few children approach their parents and ask for therapy, one scenario may be that the parents make the appointment twist the kids arm a little and then the child may finally agree to go for one session… this is forced also. But eventually the child may take to it and it will become helpful.
But to go head on into a discussion and say: “all programs are abusive” pretty much closes the door to any open minded debate.
...
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So does having a fiduciary interest in the most abusive programs; ones that maim, rape, mindfuck and kill children, i.e. Aspen Education.
When is this supposed to take place?
Well the announcement takes place after the lawyers sign off on the deal, but they usually wait until the transfer is ready to take place.
The legal transfer typically takes place at the beginning of the new quarter (or fiscal year).
So based on this I would expect the announcement would come at anytime and the transfer could occur on Tuesday October 1, 2007 or early January 2008.
...
How is it that you are in a position to have knowledge about the acquisition of HLA?
I apologize for being vague, I have a fiduciary duty which prevents me from speaking in any specific terms in this area and can only comment on information which is first made public by either party involved, this could be misconstrued as Tipping.
:feedtrolls:
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I think one problem you are having at trying to have a civil discussion is that you have already made up your mind. You may not be willing to open up your mind and consider both sides of the issue or see the other persons point of view.
I have been attacked, also, awake for taking a middle position in that there are programs which are abusive and those which are helpful. Imagine how badly I would be attacked if I felt all programs were great!
One approach may be to discuss all aspects of the industry (not just the therapy) one at a time. For instance I think people may more easily agree that a child should be removed from a toxic environment. Besides therapy the programs offer behavior modification, a structured setting, academics. Etc.
Forced therapy can happen locally. Very few children approach their parents and ask for therapy, one scenario may be that the parents make the appointment twist the kids arm a little and then the child may finally agree to go for one session… this is forced also. But eventually the child may take to it and it will become helpful.
But to go head on into a discussion and say: “all programs are abusive” pretty much closes the door to any open minded debate.
...
A couple things, I think if you are generalizing what I’m saying as ‘all programs are abusive’ then that is a misleading statement, one that says I can implicate each program individually of INTENDING to be abusive. I am not saying that, more the opposite really, that being the current system is so undefined and ambiguous that it precludes us from the possibility of PROVING intent to abuse on any level of the industry, staff, program, or the class of programs the TTI as a whole. This is not all I would say, but I do think it is enough to question whether they should be operating at all until we do.
As a class the TTI does not have ethical standards that can safely regulate the operations of the individual programs that belong to the class. There will always be exceptions to the rule, but in some cases the rule is wrong, or incomplete, and that can open the door for ‘accepted’ forms of harm to take place. This can be intentional or not under the current framework, which also precludes us from the ability to prove, or prosecute, original intent in an abusive situation. I don’t see how it is closed minded to want to examine those possibilities.
I think I have pursued an open minded debate, but what points of view here have I not considered that justifies the TTI’s conduct in its current form, and what gives them the benefit of the doubt that they are not continuing to propagate harmful, misleading methodology within it’s culture?
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I think one problem you are having at trying to have a civil discussion is that you have already made up your mind. You may not be willing to open up your mind and consider both sides of the issue or see the other persons point of view.
I have been attacked, also, awake for taking a middle position in that there are programs which are abusive and those which are helpful. Imagine how badly I would be attacked if I felt all programs were great!
One approach may be to discuss all aspects of the industry (not just the therapy) one at a time. For instance I think people may more easily agree that a child should be removed from a toxic environment. Besides therapy the programs offer behavior modification, a structured setting, academics. Etc.
Forced therapy can happen locally. Very few children approach their parents and ask for therapy, one scenario may be that the parents make the appointment twist the kids arm a little and then the child may finally agree to go for one session… this is forced also. But eventually the child may take to it and it will become helpful.
But to go head on into a discussion and say: “all programs are abusive” pretty much closes the door to any open minded debate.
...
A couple things, I think if you are generalizing what I’m saying as ‘all programs are abusive’ then that is a misleading statement, one that says I can implicate each program individually of INTENDING to be abusive. I am not saying that, more the opposite really, that being the current system is so undefined and ambiguous that it precludes us from the possibility of PROVING intent to abuse on any level of the industry, staff, program, or the class of programs the TTI as a whole. This is not all I would say, but I do think it is enough to question whether they should be operating at all until we do.
As a class the TTI does not have ethical standards that can safely regulate the operations of the individual programs that belong to the class. There will always be exceptions to the rule, but in some cases the rule is wrong, or incomplete, and that can open the door for ‘accepted’ forms of harm to take place. This can be intentional or not under the current framework, which also precludes us from the ability to prove, or prosecute, original intent in an abusive situation. I don’t see how it is closed minded to want to examine those possibilities.
I think I have pursued an open minded debate, but what points of view here have I not considered that justifies the TTI’s conduct in its current form, and what gives them the benefit of the doubt that they are not continuing to propagate harmful, misleading methodology within it’s culture?
Here is one point, your lazy as most intellectuals. Get on the road and stop at each and every treatment center, throughly study and research them, then come back here and expound on and on about what you find out.
Point two when you want to make a point about abuse make sure Pile is not someone you are supporting in one of your arguments.
Thanks.......
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I think one problem you are having at trying to have a civil discussion is that you have already made up your mind. You may not be willing to open up your mind and consider both sides of the issue or see the other persons point of view.
I have been attacked, also, awake for taking a middle position in that there are programs which are abusive and those which are helpful. Imagine how badly I would be attacked if I felt all programs were great!
One approach may be to discuss all aspects of the industry (not just the therapy) one at a time. For instance I think people may more easily agree that a child should be removed from a toxic environment. Besides therapy the programs offer behavior modification, a structured setting, academics. Etc.
Forced therapy can happen locally. Very few children approach their parents and ask for therapy, one scenario may be that the parents make the appointment twist the kids arm a little and then the child may finally agree to go for one session… this is forced also. But eventually the child may take to it and it will become helpful.
But to go head on into a discussion and say: “all programs are abusive” pretty much closes the door to any open minded debate.
...
A couple things, I think if you are generalizing what I’m saying as ‘all programs are abusive’ then that is a misleading statement, one that says I can implicate each program individually of INTENDING to be abusive. I am not saying that, more the opposite really, that being the current system is so undefined and ambiguous that it precludes us from the possibility of PROVING intent to abuse on any level of the industry, staff, program, or the class of programs the TTI as a whole. This is not all I would say, but I do think it is enough to question whether they should be operating at all until we do.
As a class the TTI does not have ethical standards that can safely regulate the operations of the individual programs that belong to the class. There will always be exceptions to the rule, but in some cases the rule is wrong, or incomplete, and that can open the door for ‘accepted’ forms of harm to take place. This can be intentional or not under the current framework, which also precludes us from the ability to prove, or prosecute, original intent in an abusive situation. I don’t see how it is closed minded to want to examine those possibilities.
I think I have pursued an open minded debate, but what points of view here have I not considered that justifies the TTI’s conduct in its current form, and what gives them the benefit of the doubt that they are not continuing to propagate harmful, misleading methodology within it’s culture?
I dont see any harm that is systemic within the TTI or I would agree with you. Daycare facilities had many problems when they first opened and gained popularity. There were little to no laws governing them and little by little they closed the gap with regulation. They didnt close them down and deny parents the support they needed. I think if there are holes in the TTI system then they should be identified and plugged up.
We have all read the studies and I have witnessed first hand that the programs are capable of helping young children through their difficulties. I have also read stories of kids who were abused in certain facilities also. The areas of concern need to be uncovered and improved. The abusive facilities are being closed down as they should be.
...
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Is that true? Well, we don't know about it because we're not working in the fast food restaurant like McDonald. However, we must be careful with that. It is better for us to cook and eat in our home.
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I don't see that I am taking it out of context. It actually amazes me that people actually believe this. Companies work Extremely hard to define and build a solid bases for their product and control the quality of their output. A couple of people and their screwy ideals will not change or jeopardize this design.
Do you think a guy working at McDonalds can just show up one day and say "Hey I picked up these Turkey Burgers on the way in tonight, lets try them out on the Big Macs and see how people like them?"
Is that true? Well, we couldn't know about that if we're not working at the fast food restaurant like McDonald. However, we must be careful with that. It is not for us to eat always at the fast food, it is better for us to cook and eat in our home.
:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:
Poor Whooter. Even the spambots reject his analogies!
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....owned.
The title of this thread is still a joke, because the discussion really isn't about efficacy, or whether it is or is not morally right to send your own children to isolation for years, or anything real. Anyone with a modicum of sense would have weighed the very real risks versus the illusory benefits, and GTFO'd long ago. But you can't have a discussion with irrationality. Doesn't work. In a very real sense they simply don't care about what makes sense or what's the best thing to do. They care about imposing what they already believe, what they were taught to believe, on what's going on in their lives; sanity comes second.
You see the same thing in Christian Scientist and other cults. Kid's entire fucking left lung fills up with pus while they pray instead of taking him to a doctor. Do they, once, say "Hey this isn't working I think he might need to go to a hospital?" If it crosses their minds they dismiss it as Satan's influence. They've been taught to pray, and so they will pray.
Whooter gave himself away when he talked about what he could make himself believe. Because he's not really concerned with winning the argument in any conventional sense. He's concerned with quieting the phantoms in his own head, repeatedly trying to overwrite reality with his inculcated views of the way the world works, and has chosen Fornits as the place to do it. Which is why he'll keep posting until banned.
Same way the programs work. They'll keep doing what they do until they run out of customers or get forcibly shut down permanently. Even the existing shutdowns just send them scurrying off to the next program. They simply don't know how to do anything else. One uncommon exception is Randall Hinton, but he brought the program home to his own three-year-old.
Sooner or later Chuck Darwin will sort this all out- having the mental makeup to get involved in cults is swiftly becoming a huge reproductive disadvantage, particularly when they involve your existing children- but before then this'll just continue until it's made illegal as Washington State has done and a lot of other states have effectively done through regulation.
But attempting to have anything approaching a rational discussion with these people is a waste of time. There's just nothing you're going to get out of the argument but the same standard bullshit. Their own kids can even pay somebody to shoot them in the back of the head, blinding them permanently with the destruction of the occipital lobes, and it won't change their tune.
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"Pile of Dead Kids"....owned.
The title of this thread is still a joke, because the discussion really isn't about efficacy, or whether it is or is not morally right to send your own children to isolation for years, or anything real. Anyone with a modicum of sense would have weighed the very real risks versus the illusory benefits, and GTFO'd long ago. But you can't have a discussion with irrationality. Doesn't work. In a very real sense they simply don't care about what makes sense or what's the best thing to do. They care about imposing what they already believe, what they were taught to believe, on what's going on in their lives; sanity comes second.
Jeesh, Awake empowered you with her last post. I beg to differ, this thread does at it's essence relate to a very important social inadequacy here. The inability for two separate opinions both with real value and passionate convictions to coexist in a mutually respective enviroment.
You see the same thing in Christian Scientist and other cults. Kid's entire fucking left lung fills up with pus while they pray instead of taking him to a doctor. Do they, once, say "Hey this isn't working I think he might need to go to a hospital?" If it crosses their minds they dismiss it as Satan's influence. They've been taught to pray, and so they will pray.
This is a grossly "out of context" example of the protestations and/or different analogies Whooter and others are presenting here.
Whooter gave himself away when he talked about what he could make himself believe. Because he's not really concerned with winning the argument in any conventional sense. He's concerned with quieting the phantoms in his own head, repeatedly trying to overwrite reality with his inculcated views of the way the world works, and has chosen Fornits as the place to do it. Which is why he'll keep posting until banned.
Ya know Pile, this smells more of a "projection" on your part, of a small insecurity, you just opened for us to see, "Your Latent Hostility".
Same way the programs work. They'll keep doing what they do until they run out of customers or get forcibly shut down permanently. Even the existing shutdowns just send them scurrying off to the next program. They simply don't know how to do anything else. One uncommon exception is Randall Hinton, but he brought the program home to his own three-year-old.
The bad ones do seem to do this. Your right.
Sooner or later Chuck Darwin will sort this all out- having the mental makeup to get involved in cults is swiftly becoming a huge reproductive disadvantage, particularly when they involve your existing children- but before then this'll just continue until it's made illegal as Washington State has done and a lot of other states have effectively done through regulation.
We can only hope this will happen sooner then later.
But attempting to have anything approaching a rational discussion with these people is a waste of time. There's just nothing you're going to get out of the argument but the same standard bullshit. Their own kids can even pay somebody to shoot them in the back of the head, blinding them permanently with the destruction of the occipital lobes, and it won't change their tune.
and there is are immature hostile Pile back to who we know. Pile you had me fooled, I thought your intellect would win out over your emotions....NOT. Your emotions still "own" you, sign of being inexperienced.
You can have a conversation with the people who don't share all your opinions. How else would this life work.
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Is that true? Well, we couldn't know about that if we're not working at the fast food restaurant like McDonald.
None of us know about the details of the processes except those who developed them. What we do know is each business has their own business plan and a developed process which will define success. Employees cant just decide to start serving onion rings if it is not on the menu.
Ask a guy at McDonalds if he will whip you up a quick tuna salad, if its not on the menu.
However, we must be careful with that. It is not for us to eat always at the fast food, it is better for us to cook and eat in our home.
I think most people would rather eat at home as a family. But if a child isn’t eating at home and the options have been changed several times to accommodate the child to no avail then feeding the child off site for a period of time would be an option to help stabilize the child’s weight loss and get him/her healthy again.
But to sit by and watch the child wither away and just hope things will get better on their own, I think we can all agree, would be neglectful.
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Guess the date; this is from a description of "group" or "seminar" or what have you, emphasis added:
Many of the boys are shrewd and wily. They know how to tell pathetic stories to win sympathy. But among themselves, when someone tries to sell such a story, the others won't buy it. And they tell him. These boys are trying to unearth truths, about themselves and others. For it is the meeting that measures a boy's progress. The basic decision for his release depends on the other boys' judgment of his improvement.
While XXXX or XXXXX conduct the group psychotherapy sessions, they are not psychiatrists, nor do they play such a role. The boys are their own psychiatrists. They go at it as though the best way to find out what's inside a boy's head is to split it open with an axe.[/list]
Can I still guess? Redl? Gilcrease? Highfields? Provo? Silverlake? (Is this on the internets somewhere? NTL?)