Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: SUCK IT on July 10, 2010, 09:57:16 PM
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There's some really bullshit advice being passed off on this forum. Most of the people here went to treatment programs 20 or 30 years ago, and pass off their knowledge to teens as if contemporary programs are clones of these long shuttered memories of the past. The past is very much kept alive here on fornits, however, as these people suggest that kids entering into today's safer program will have an experience similar to theirs. This is a selfish attitude to have, especially since so few people post here it is obvious that the negative expreinces are in the very slim minority. Nevertheless I feel the urge to counter their bullshit with some real common sense advice that will better serve you in your newfound path of entering treatment.
Step 1. Be honest with yourself about why you are going to treatment. If you can get real with yourself before you even get there all the better, because a lot of time will be spent simply getting someone to honestly accept the fact they have issues. Just like in prison everybody is innocent, so it goes in treatment programs the world over, everybody is innocent and has no idea why they have randomly ended up in a treamtnet center. Adult, teens, it doesn't matter, treatment centers share this same, mysterious phenomenon of innocence. But eventually people realize it's in their own best interests to be honest. Instead of wasting time, show up honest and ready to work and it will help you out tremendously.
Step 2. Humble yourself. The people here are arrogant especially people like Dysfunction Junction who claim that people need to be PhD in science to work at a treatment facility. Just because people seem young or inexperienced don't dismiss their advice and experience. Within the context of treatment education means little and being arrogant and thinking you can fake it and be smarter than everyone else will not make it any better. You will simply remain detached from everyone else in your self imposed bubble of lies always worried it might pop at any moment, and pop this bubble of lies will, eventually. And at that moment you will have a personal reckoning in front of your so called friends whom you might have lied to their faces to keep insulated in the safety of non disclosure as advised. will they forgive you? You will have to wait and see, or take an honest path and you will not ever have to wonder.
Step 3. Be ready to receive help. If you are open to change you will have a wonderful challenge and life changing positive experience. Think about inspirational emotional drama movies, they always must overcome challenges in the beginning to finally shine at the end. This is the same in treatment. So if you can get yourself prepared that you are indeed going to change for the better you can have the right mindset about where you are headed when you get there. You can hunker down in your beliefs as people advise here, hold tight to the destructive behaviors and thoughts that lead to being compelled to go to treatment, or you can realize this way did not work and so it's time to change. If you are open to change you will have a much better experience. Even if you are cynical and just want to get out quicker, this way you will surely get out quicker and you can make friends and be treated with respect. If you take the advice here and disrespect everybody in treatment the experience will probably be negative, but this is your choice if you want it to be this way. Choose positivity!
Overall I think this is a good place to get started on some realistic advice. The advice offered on this forum by the extremists who would have you sacrifice your honesty and dignity and make a charade of yourself and treatment is wrong. If you want to complete treatment as a positive experience it is possible but it's all in your attitude. If you have a positive attitude and open yourself to change than you will have a wonderful time like so many people do.
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I certainly understand all that. 'Trust the process' ' be open' 'go for it'. How else is therapy supposed to work?
So share your feelings with us SUCK IT? What's going on with you?
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There's some really bullshit advice being passed off on this forum. Most of the people here went to treatment programs 20 or 30 years ago, and pass off their knowledge to teens as if contemporary programs are clones of these long shuttered memories of the past. The past is very much kept alive here on fornits, however, as these people suggest that kids entering into today's safer program will have an experience similar to theirs. This is a selfish attitude to have, especially since so few people post here it is obvious that the negative expreinces are in the very slim minority. Nevertheless I feel the urge to counter their bullshit with some real common sense advice that will better serve you in your newfound path of entering treatment.
Step 1. Be honest with yourself about why you are going to treatment. If you can get real with yourself before you even get there all the better, because a lot of time will be spent simply getting someone to honestly accept the fact they have issues. Just like in prison everybody is innocent, so it goes in treatment programs the world over, everybody is innocent and has no idea why they have randomly ended up in a treamtnet center. Adult, teens, it doesn't matter, treatment centers share this same, mysterious phenomenon of innocence. But eventually people realize it's in their own best interests to be honest. Instead of wasting time, show up honest and ready to work and it will help you out tremendously.
Step 2. Humble yourself. The people here are arrogant especially people like Dysfunction Junction who claim that people need to be PhD in science to work at a treatment facility. Just because people seem young or inexperienced don't dismiss their advice and experience. Within the context of treatment education means little and being arrogant and thinking you can fake it and be smarter than everyone else will not make it any better. You will simply remain detached from everyone else in your self imposed bubble of lies always worried it might pop at any moment, and pop this bubble of lies will, eventually. And at that moment you will have a personal reckoning in front of your so called friends whom you might have lied to their faces to keep insulated in the safety of non disclosure as advised. will they forgive you? You will have to wait and see, or take an honest path and you will not ever have to wonder.
Step 3. Be ready to receive help. If you are open to change you will have a wonderful challenge and life changing positive experience. Think about inspirational emotional drama movies, they always must overcome challenges in the beginning to finally shine at the end. This is the same in treatment. So if you can get yourself prepared that you are indeed going to change for the better you can have the right mindset about where you are headed when you get there. You can hunker down in your beliefs as people advise here, hold tight to the destructive behaviors and thoughts that lead to being compelled to go to treatment, or you can realize this way did not work and so it's time to change. If you are open to change you will have a much better experience. Even if you are cynical and just want to get out quicker, this way you will surely get out quicker and you can make friends and be treated with respect. If you take the advice here and disrespect everybody in treatment the experience will probably be negative, but this is your choice if you want it to be this way. Choose positivity!
Overall I think this is a good place to get started on some realistic advice. The advice offered on this forum by the extremists who would have you sacrifice your honesty and dignity and make a charade of yourself and treatment is wrong. If you want to complete treatment as a positive experience it is possible but it's all in your attitude. If you have a positive attitude and open yourself to change than you will have a wonderful time like so many people do.
Really SUCK IT, listen to your advice for those going into a program. I can tell there is a lot more to you than what you show us around here. I want to be a part of your growth, so open up. Let us know a little bit about who SUCK IT really is?
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SUCK IT, are you going to deny that those were the words you posted? What does this make you? Do you feel good about that?
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There's some really bullshit advice being passed off on this forum. Most of the people here went to treatment programs 20 or 30 years ago, and pass off their knowledge to teens as if contemporary programs are clones of these long shuttered memories of the past. The past is very much kept alive here on fornits, however, as these people suggest that kids entering into today's safer program will have an experience similar to theirs. This is a selfish attitude to have, especially since so few people post here it is obvious that the negative expreinces are in the very slim minority. Nevertheless I feel the urge to counter their bullshit with some real common sense advice that will better serve you in your newfound path of entering treatment.
Step 1. Be honest with yourself about why you are going to treatment. If you can get real with yourself before you even get there all the better, because a lot of time will be spent simply getting someone to honestly accept the fact they have issues. Just like in prison everybody is innocent, so it goes in treatment programs the world over, everybody is innocent and has no idea why they have randomly ended up in a treamtnet center. Adult, teens, it doesn't matter, treatment centers share this same, mysterious phenomenon of innocence. But eventually people realize it's in their own best interests to be honest. Instead of wasting time, show up honest and ready to work and it will help you out tremendously.
Step 2. Humble yourself. The people here are arrogant especially people like Dysfunction Junction who claim that people need to be PhD in science to work at a treatment facility. Just because people seem young or inexperienced don't dismiss their advice and experience. Within the context of treatment education means little and being arrogant and thinking you can fake it and be smarter than everyone else will not make it any better. You will simply remain detached from everyone else in your self imposed bubble of lies always worried it might pop at any moment, and pop this bubble of lies will, eventually. And at that moment you will have a personal reckoning in front of your so called friends whom you might have lied to their faces to keep insulated in the safety of non disclosure as advised. will they forgive you? You will have to wait and see, or take an honest path and you will not ever have to wonder.
Step 3. Be ready to receive help. If you are open to change you will have a wonderful challenge and life changing positive experience. Think about inspirational emotional drama movies, they always must overcome challenges in the beginning to finally shine at the end. This is the same in treatment. So if you can get yourself prepared that you are indeed going to change for the better you can have the right mindset about where you are headed when you get there. You can hunker down in your beliefs as people advise here, hold tight to the destructive behaviors and thoughts that lead to being compelled to go to treatment, or you can realize this way did not work and so it's time to change. If you are open to change you will have a much better experience. Even if you are cynical and just want to get out quicker, this way you will surely get out quicker and you can make friends and be treated with respect. If you take the advice here and disrespect everybody in treatment the experience will probably be negative, but this is your choice if you want it to be this way. Choose positivity!
Overall I think this is a good place to get started on some realistic advice. The advice offered on this forum by the extremists who would have you sacrifice your honesty and dignity and make a charade of yourself and treatment is wrong. If you want to complete treatment as a positive experience it is possible but it's all in your attitude. If you have a positive attitude and open yourself to change than you will have a wonderful time like so many people do.
Really SUCK IT, listen to your advice for those going into a program. I can tell there is a lot more to you than what you show us around here. I want to be a part of your growth, so open up. Let us know a little bit about who SUCK IT really is?
This is how you started the thread SUCK IT. I’m here to help you. Get honest.
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SUCK IT, are you going to deny that those were the words you posted? What does this make you? Do you feel good about that?
He "pulled a Whooter" and deleted the post. You have to QFT this weasel.
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WOW.
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No, it's not quite like Whooter. SUCK IT has occasional moments of clarity in which he goes "What the fuck did I just write?!" and deletes it. I feel that we should encourage these moments of clarity and hope that they last longer.
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You have to QFT this weasel.
No need, I edited it back in just for you. I don't want to be responsible for making you upset.
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No, it's not quite like Whooter. SUCK IT has occasional moments of clarity in which he goes "What the fuck did I just write?!" and deletes it. I feel that we should encourage these moments of clarity and hope that they last longer.
Well... not really. I thought it wasn't that well written and kind of confusing. I was going to re write it again with better advice and more clearly written and understandable. But since people are so interested in it, aparently, I'll let this one stand as well. I'll post the new one soon enough when I have time to work on it.
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Responses to Suck It's Advice to Survivors. Suck It's advice in bold.
Step 1. Be honest with yourself about why you are going to treatment.
Most of the people I know who were sent to programs don't white wash their personality traits. I was always honest when asked a direct question by authority figures. If there was a consequence to that, I took it. I didn't blame someone else. In fact, many survivors I have met were honest and non compliant. It's the lack of compliance that people have an issue with.
Being honest with yourself is always a good thing. Unfortunately, I did not see this promoted in the program. You can't be honest and be inculcated at the same time. You can't expect people to be honest when you are being humiliated and badgered into coerced "confessions" and storylines. I say story lines because propheets demand that you adopt a "truth" but the "truth" is dictated.
The last thing many programs are about is honesty - fiduciary, academic, or therapeutic on a systemic level.
Also, don't assume that everyone sent to a program is dishonest. Criminalizing youths by labeling them dishonest is tactical. This ensures that their voices are discredited. Repeatedly, I have read posts where you paint all survivors with the same brush. All dishonest criminals who deserve it.... The problem is that many of these kids are NOT "bad" and none of them deserve unethical treatment based on cult "therapy" and degradation.
I did not attend CEDU because I was a drug user, vandal, or liar. (All of these things, by the way, fairly normal in the teen age population. TCI would be glutted if they had to take all kids who fit this definition.) The issues I had I desperately wanted help for - I sure as hell didn't get it at CEDU. CEDU was exacerbating. The level of psychic manipulation that occurs there at a pivotal time in development had a far reaching if insidious effect. Was I drug addict afterward? No. Did I matriculate to higher education? Yes. Do I have a "respectable" career? Yes. Was I ever hospitalized? No. BUT THIS IS A RESUME THAT JUST LOOKS GOOD ON PAPER. I and many others have struggled mightily reconciling CEDU's warped infrastructure against the real world.
Step 2. Humble yourself.
Wouldn't it be great if humility was a virtue of the program? Unfortunately, CEDU and many other existing programs are based on Humiliation, not humility. Big difference.
Maybe you can embrace this credo yourself by considering the possibility that many people (most I know off Fornits) were damaged by programs. Many were brainwashed and could not begin to unravel it until they were adults with more life experience. I am sorry you do not have the compassion to understand, but it is offensive to belittle these experiences.
Step 3. Be ready to receive help.
You know, when I was a kid, there were so many adults who I wished would "be ready" to stop alcoholic rages and "be ready" to stop abusing, but unfortunately, this did not happen on demand.
Also, we all could use a little help and support at times, but it is good to exercise discretion and be critical consumers of our support needs. Sometimes we need a good hard look; sometimes its love and acceptance; and sometimes, its the people who would send you away who need to "be ready."
In any event, you are ready when you are ready. You can't just "be ready" on someone else's time table. Readiness is a product of learning experience and maturity.
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Thanks for your honesty SUCK IT. So what's going on with you right now?
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So what's going on with you right now?
::puke:: God, that phrase... did other programs use it, too?
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Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
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I don’t know what you guys are talking about. I’m just asking SUCK IT a question, and give him/her an opportunity to demonstrate why they support this advice to teens going to programs. I’m not using tactics here, I’m trying to help SUCK IT grow. You won’t find me doing anything that can be considered unethical, so don’t be afraid to open up to me SUCK IT.
So what’s up SUCK IT? I want to hear.
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I don’t know what you guys are talking about. I’m just asking SUCK IT a question, and give him/her an opportunity to demonstrate why they support this advice to teens going to programs. I’m not using tactics here, I’m trying to help SUCK IT grow. You won’t find me doing anything that can be considered unethical, so don’t be afraid to open up to me SUCK IT.
So what’s up SUCK IT? I want to hear.
It's truly wonderful to see this kind of love and support happening here for a change!
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Maybe you can embrace this credo yourself by considering the possibility that many people (most I know off Fornits) were damaged by programs. Many were brainwashed and could not begin to unravel it until they were adults with more life experience. I am sorry you do not have the compassion to understand, but it is offensive to belittle these experiences.
I don't claim that nobody had a negative experience inside of a treatment program. My argument is simply that from my point of view, this is a minority of people and the silent majority did just fine, and don't seek out forums like this, because they don't have any agenda to push regarding programs. Much of what is posted on fornits is not realistic, and a lot of times this is posted by people who were never in treatment. So when someone posts that everyone gets abused in treatment, prepare to be raped, brainwashed, and using rhetoric like terms survivors, things i just don't agree with. I did find in a treatment program that is considered on this forum to be abusive, and I know plenty of other people who did as well. If you were to ask an average fornits extremists what is in store for a teen if sent there, I can see just how off their perception of what is happening really is.
I feel compassion for anyone who has problems in life. Some kids are injured, abused and killed in programs, I never denied this. But I also am honest enough to recognize that it is extremely unlikely to happen. Most kids sent to wilderness programs and modern treatment prgorams do just fine, make it through without any major issues or complaints and move on with their life. So the fact is I'm all about honesty, even if it "hurts the cause" because I have moved on to a point where I can look at my own experience with some objectivity. I don't feel a need to play victim to push a anti treatment political agenda. So the fact the rhetoric doesn't match up anywhere near my reality is point 1. The second reason I object to fornits extremism is the cult like hatred of groups like AA, i think its ridiculous.
I support kids getting a positive treatment experience. I've had this experience and think it's great, and the better the chances of having a positive experience, the better. I know from my own observations if a kid follows the advice posted here, such as refusing and lying, or worse smearing shit on your face, or committing violence, or going to jail on purpose, etc, that if a kid wants to stay safe, get through the quickest, and just maybe even work on some issues, then work the program. If you reject it will be much more likely to lead to a negative experience, and then you can smear shit or do something violent and come fulfill the fornits version of reality. I think it's irresponsible to offer such ridiculous advice to a teenager facing treatment. If I could go back and give myself advice, this what I posted is exactly what I would give. The opposite would be the advice posted here by fornits members.
I don't see why my position is so annoying to some or hard to understand. I think everybody here including whooter wants the same thing which is kids staying safe in treatment. Most of the regular fornits posters have adopted an extremist view on the industry. So this makes them angry to hear other points of view, they'd rather not hear it at all. In reality Whooter is a mainstream point of view, and so am I. But we are now presented as extreme, when really it's the people throwing the accusation that are the extremists. I am here to post my opinions, and I do get real and am honest about what it's really like in treatment from the point of view with someone willing to be objective and not push a political point. The cult like atmosphere is ironic and also stifling to having a real conversation. Top that off with the conspiracy theories, paranoia and hatred and it becomes a difficult place to have an honest conversation.
I don’t know what you guys are talking about. I’m just asking SUCK IT a question, and give him/her an opportunity to demonstrate why they support this advice to teens going to programs. I’m not using tactics here, I’m trying to help SUCK IT grow. You won’t find me doing anything that can be considered unethical, so don’t be afraid to open up to me SUCK IT.
So what’s up SUCK IT? I want to hear.
Why does it bother you so much that I post what would be advice to myself, if I could go back in time? If you hated it so much, why use your internet cache to post it up again when I was going to rewrite it? I'm saying this with all respect, do you really want to become like dysfunction junction is with whooter? You know what I mean. Personally obsessed, for whatever reason. Believe me, I'm not really worth your time or energy. Attempting to equate an online conversation and what you probably view as 'unethical' group therapy just isn't going to work, although I do get what you're trying to do. If you really think this advice is offensive, the best thing would be just to not bump the conversation to the top. But you did, so there must be something you want to say about it. Instead of trying to goad me into saying something why not just say it?
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I really don't see why you are getting so defensive with respect to your own advice. What exactly do you think I am 'goading' you into saying?
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I'm going to do you a favor and not respond. I am sure you have better things to do, as do I, than enter into a personal tit for tat, dysfunctional junctino style argument. I have posted my ideas and arguments regarding how to advise a teen entering treatment. If you feel the need to criticize my advice, for whatever reason, you are free to do so in this thread.
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I'm going to do you a favor and not respond. I am sure you have better things to do, as do I, than enter into a personal tit for tat, dysfunctional junctino style argument. I have posted my ideas and arguments regarding how to advise a teen entering treatment. If you feel the need to criticize my advice, for whatever reason, you are free to do so in this thread.
No, it is not a personal tit for tat argument, that is not what’s happening. You are offering your thinking and I am challenging it, it’s about ideas, not about you. I haven’t done anything inappropriate here, we are exploring your concept, and I belive your stance disintegrates in the face of your own prescription. I’m interested in seeing how it would play out, but if it makes you uncomfortable I can’t keep you here, unlike a program teen.
It’s really not a personal thing at all, just an opportunity to learn what we can really expect from it.
A teen in a program does not have the chance to 'not respond' . What would happen if you had to respond?
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Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
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I'm going to do you a favor and not respond. I am sure you have better things to do, as do I, than enter into a personal tit for tat, dysfunctional junctino style argument. I have posted my ideas and arguments regarding how to advise a teen entering treatment. If you feel the need to criticize my advice, for whatever reason, you are free to do so in this thread.
No, it is not a personal tit for tat argument, that is not what’s happening. You are offering your thinking and I am challenging it, it’s about ideas, not about you. I haven’t done anything inappropriate here, we are exploring your concept, and I belive your stance disintegrates in the face of your own prescription. I’m interested in seeing how it would play out, but if it makes you uncomfortable I can’t keep you here, unlike a program teen.
It’s really not a personal thing at all, just an opportunity to learn what we can really expect from it.
A teen in a program does not have the chance to 'not respond' . What would happen if you had to respond?
What I bolded is actually your first idea that you have offered in this thread. Before that you were pretending we were in group therapy, and asking me questions I didn't want to answer, because I deleted my own post you thought by bringing it back and questioning me about this is somehow analogous to unwelcome group therapy a teenager in a program might experience. I get it. But really this type of charade only diminishes your own argument, because honestly an online debate is not a traumatizing experience in any way, so if I were on your side of the argument I don't think I'd want to water it down by suggesting the two experiences are similar. So how should I have responded to this game of yours? I've seen this peculiar argument done before on other posters, and it never made sense to me. But persist if you must.
I will go ahead and address your idea you have posted, that teens don't have a choice not to respond, as I do when posting on this forum. (this was the point of the exercise, correct?) Well in my own personal experience, you could refuse if you wanted, and plenty did. How is a program counselor going to force a kid to talk? Tie them down on a table and water board them until they admit their issues? Some people like Pile are probably gullible enough to believe this happens. I don't consider group therapy to be unethical or abusive, so the fact that it happens in teen treatment programs doesn't automatically alarm me like it does some posters here. If a teen chooses to participate they will be rewarded by emotional gains and also probably realistic gains as far as in perks in the treatment facility. It's natural for a teen to want to participate and be a part of this progression, but there are always teens who refuse. I know people who refused to do any sort of work the whole time, and they weren't tortured or abused. They basically wasted the time, just to protest or remain in their old ways like people here suggest. Other kids resisted and changed their minds and wanted to progress. It's all up to the person, as I said in my advice, if they want to have a positive or negative experience. The so called advice offered up here in other threads would ensure that it result in a negative experience. How backwards is it that people would offer advice to ensure such a negative experience, coming from people who claim to be for helping teens? That's why I offer my own advice, and realistic advice, because if anyone follows the bullshit posted here by the extremists they will guarantee themselves a bad time. Its of course very ironic that fornits can create negative experiences for other people based on their backwards interpretations of other people's negative experiences, but this place is strange like that.
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All I'm asking is for you to take a look at yourself. I can't help you do that if you don't open up.
Tell me what, are the feelings you are having. Is 'anger' in there somewhere?
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Well, have fun with your game Awake. I'll be gone for a few days but if you post any ideas to this thread again I'll try to answer them when I get a chance.
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Well, have fun with your game Awake. I'll be gone for a few days but if you post any ideas to this thread again I'll try to answer them when I get a chance.
Actually this is YOUR game and your advice to teens. If you want to run from it that's your choice.
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How is a program counselor going to force a kid to talk? Tie them down on a table and water board them until they admit their issues?
No. I never saw that one, but I sure they tried it in Elan at least once.
Umm... Positive Peer Pressure. That is whta it was called in Daytop. The whole program is designed to the end of not only making you talk about your problems, but thinking you are your problems. Here are just a few ways, in which counselors MADE people talk about their feelings.
1. Anyone who wanted to could go up to you and "confront" you at any time. It was a rule that you had to answer all of their questions, and you had to answer them honestly. The confrontation ended when the confronter said so. You were only allowed to answer with direct statements, and could not even say somethings such as "what do you mean?" . "Can you be more specific?" because then you were trying to "whip the focus". Confrontation, was always done with a hostile attitude. No answers were satisfactory, and more questions kept coming. "Confrontation was strongly encouraged in Daytop. In fact, when you were shotdown, one of the main ways to earn your 2 cigarettes breaks a day was to confront as many other people as possible.
2. Let's say you weren t talking much, in general, and it didn t seem that you were confronted much either. In this case, at a "FAMILY MEETING!!!!!" ( I can still hear the voices of the kids running through the halls screaming that shit), a counselor would say that you were " lying in the cut", and he wanted people to confront you more. " Hunting Season has begun"
or as was done to numerous people every single day - " And this morning's entertainment will be" - you are put up in front of the whole family, and the counselors start the ball rolling on some issue or another, and then everyone gets their shot at you. Anyone who wants lines up, and they question you, until they are done, and also, give you their commentary, on your thoughts and feelings... The bottom line to all of it - " YOU ARE WRONG!" " WE KNOW TYOU BETTER THEN YOU DO, AND THIS IS NOT YOU!" Some of the older members didn t even line up. They just shouted their questions and accusations right from their seats, and you dealt with it, because you had to. This happenned to a few people a day, every single day.
3. Oh.. one of the best ones is this. Let's say somebody isn t opening up, and is maintaining their personal identity. They haven t caused any problems or anything. They re just not really joining the pack... They usually have only been there for about a week or so, and they walk into their first encounter group.
" A BLOOD BATH"... Every mother fucker in the room starts attacking them. I have seen some tough ass motherfuckers break down and start crying. And that s the thing. They always started crying eventually, because that was the goal. I remember this one guy. he was an ugly motherfucker. But did he really need so many people telling him it. This girl he use to hang out with, was now a seasoned Daytopian. She was in teh group, and she went on, about how she hated him, and how she was only using him, when they hung out. " Did you really think I liked you?"
Therapy?
It was sick. It was disgusting....
and if anyone really thinks that it is good for people, how come you don t talk to your loved ones that way? Don t you want to help them?
All a bunch of fucking pussies, ganging up and attacking one vulnerable person, who was usually stronger then the lot of them added together.
After that a person breaks, they ll tell ya whatever you want to hear.
Paul
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The Daytop facility that I went to was a renovated funeral parlor. I always got a kick out of that. It went from a place for the dead, to a place for the living dead.
Paul
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That’s not good, I feel bad for those kids. I think it has to do with the individual staff members. Not sure if the program itself was abusive. There have been posters here on fornits (some have come and gone) who worked at daytop for years, as staff, and claim they never abused anyone or saw any abuse. They were professionals and would be bound by their profession to report it immediately if they saw any child being abused. So these must have been isolated cases or at least this didn’t occur during their time there.
...
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That’s not good, I feel bad for those kids. I think it has to do with the individual staff members. Not sure if the program itself was abusive. There have been posters here on fornits (some have come and gone) who worked at daytop for years, as staff, and claim they never abused anyone or saw any abuse. They were professionals and would be bound by their profession to report it immediately if they saw any child being abused. So these must have been isolated cases or at least this didn’t occur during their time there.
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Whooter, they didn t consider this abuse.
Paul
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That’s not good, I feel bad for those kids. I think it has to do with the individual staff members. Not sure if the program itself was abusive. There have been posters here on fornits (some have come and gone) who worked at daytop for years, as staff, and claim they never abused anyone or saw any abuse. They were professionals and would be bound by their profession to report it immediately if they saw any child being abused. So these must have been isolated cases or at least this didn’t occur during their time there.
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Whooter, they didn t consider this abuse.
Paul
Sorry, Paul, I thought you were calling it abuse. It just seems a little rough to me, I wouldnt want my kid to go through anything like that. I am sure they screen their staff personnel much better now a days or maybe they were a tough bunch of kids in that particular group. My daughter would have freaked out and headed for the door if anyone talked to her that way.
...
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Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
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I suppose I would call it a form of abuse. My point is that if you ask a counselor, if they saw abuse, and they say, " No.", they probably mean that they never saw any physical abuse. That, which, I explained is referred to as " Tough Love", or "treatment".
There was a real psychologist in the building. She never took part in any of this. She actually seemed to be a very nice person one on one, but she knew about it, and every so often ever observed.
But this is the way things were, and everyone in the building understood that. The teachers were nice people too, but the counselors were boss, and this is the way shit went.
There were 5 counselors, and an administator, when I started there.. In the time I was there, 2 had left, and 2 had come from other facilities to replace them.. They were all more or less the same.
The new ones, I actually overheard making fun of shit that kids in another Daytop had said in group. Some of these counselors had different types of training and degrees, but they all had one thing in common. They had been through the program themselves, and were put through even worse shit, then they were putting us through.
But, judging by your responses, Whooter, it is nice to know, you are not a heartless asshole.
Paul
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I really don't see why you are getting so defensive with respect to your own advice. What exactly do you think I am 'goading' you into saying?
Awake you appear to be a intelligent person, just ask the question, why play games.
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I really don't see why you are getting so defensive with respect to your own advice. What exactly do you think I am 'goading' you into saying?
Awake you appear to be a intelligent person, just ask the question, why play games.
Who here is not playing games?
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Is the TTI a game that a child has to play? If you can't make a child want, really want, therapy, doesn't it become a game that must be played, the therapy game?
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Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
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I really don't see why you are getting so defensive with respect to your own advice. What exactly do you think I am 'goading' you into saying?
Awake you appear to be a intelligent person, just ask the question, why play games.
Who here is not playing games?
:notworthy:
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I'm going to do you a favor and not respond. I am sure you have better things to do, as do I, than enter into a personal tit for tat, dysfunctional junctino style argument. I have posted my ideas and arguments regarding how to advise a teen entering treatment. If you feel the need to criticize my advice, for whatever reason, you are free to do so in this thread.
No, it is not a personal tit for tat argument, that is not what’s happening. You are offering your thinking and I am challenging it, it’s about ideas, not about you. I haven’t done anything inappropriate here, we are exploring your concept, and I belive your stance disintegrates in the face of your own prescription. I’m interested in seeing how it would play out, but if it makes you uncomfortable I can’t keep you here, unlike a program teen.
It’s really not a personal thing at all, just an opportunity to learn what we can really expect from it.
A teen in a program does not have the chance to 'not respond' . What would happen if you had to respond?
Hey Awake, since I really have no manners for "condescending pseudo-intellectual low self-esteem trolls" that go around taking their degrees and trying to force them down peoples throat, why don't you go try and make a living with your spiel somewhere else. Your scientific chemistry class of the physic Double Bind needs to be studied more, why don't cha take care of that. Instead of fucking with us working class folk who went through treatment and know something about it from the ground level.
Your posts show you have no clue as to what the solution is and more to do with the problem.
Oh and btw tell Ursus,Inculcate and the Admins that this act you have going here, smells of them, talk about conspiracies.
Where do they get you folks.
Quit fucking with people you don't agree with or better yet don't agree with you.
Also stop acting like your trying to help, it is blasphemy.
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Hey Awake, since I really have no manners for "condescending pseudo-intellectual low self-esteem trolls" that go around taking their degrees and trying to force them down peoples throat, why don't you go try and make a living with your spiel somewhere else. Your scientific chemistry class of the physic Double Bind needs to be studied more, why don't cha take care of that. Instead of fucking with us working class folk who went through treatment and know something about it from the ground level.
Your posts show you have no clue as to what the solution is and more to do with the problem.
Oh and btw tell Ursus,Inculcate and the Admins that this act you have going here, smells of them, talk about conspiracies.
Where do they get you folks.
Quit fucking with people you don't agree with or better yet don't agree with you.
Also stop acting like your trying to help, it is blasphemy.
:rofl:
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I'm going to do you a favor and not respond. I am sure you have better things to do, as do I, than enter into a personal tit for tat, dysfunctional junctino style argument. I have posted my ideas and arguments regarding how to advise a teen entering treatment. If you feel the need to criticize my advice, for whatever reason, you are free to do so in this thread.
No, it is not a personal tit for tat argument, that is not what’s happening. You are offering your thinking and I am challenging it, it’s about ideas, not about you. I haven’t done anything inappropriate here, we are exploring your concept, and I belive your stance disintegrates in the face of your own prescription. I’m interested in seeing how it would play out, but if it makes you uncomfortable I can’t keep you here, unlike a program teen.
It’s really not a personal thing at all, just an opportunity to learn what we can really expect from it.
A teen in a program does not have the chance to 'not respond' . What would happen if you had to respond?
Hey Awake, since I really have no manners for "condescending pseudo-intellectual low self-esteem trolls" that go around taking their degrees and trying to force them down peoples throat, why don't you go try and make a living with your spiel somewhere else. Your scientific chemistry class of the physic Double Bind needs to be studied more, why don't cha take care of that. Instead of fucking with us working class folk who went through treatment and know something about it from the ground level.
Your posts show you have no clue as to what the solution is and more to do with the problem.
Oh and btw tell Ursus,Inculcate and the Admins that this act you have going here, smells of them, talk about conspiracies.
Where do they get you folks.
Quit fucking with people you don't agree with or better yet don't agree with you.
Also stop acting like your trying to help, it is blasphemy.
You're wrong about me Danny.
Double Bind: Mind Control in the TTI
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30423&start=0 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30423&start=0)
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Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
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Hey Awake, since I really have no manners for "condescending pseudo-intellectual low self-esteem trolls" that go around taking their degrees and trying to force them down peoples throat, why don't you go try and make a living with your spiel somewhere else. Your scientific chemistry class of the physic Double Bind needs to be studied more, why don't cha take care of that. Instead of fucking with us working class folk who went through treatment and know something about it from the ground level.
Your posts show you have no clue as to what the solution is and more to do with the problem.
Oh and btw tell Ursus,Inculcate and the Admins that this act you have going here, smells of them, talk about conspiracies.
Where do they get you folks.
Quit fucking with people you don't agree with or better yet don't agree with you.
Also stop acting like your trying to help, it is blasphemy.
:rofl:
Yah. I knew it was only a matter of time ... when I first read these posts in the DOUBLE BIND: Mind Control in the TTI (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30423) thread:
Originally posted (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30423&p=362426#p363764) on 15 May 2010 17:54:
This is some of the best reading I have seem
Thanks for the insight of how these places and the ppl who run them work.
:shamrock: :shamrock:
I second that, WTF2. Awake has been a inspiration.
Danny
Originally posted (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30423&p=362426#p364705) on 27 May 2010 21:33:
:shamrock: :shamrock:
This intermediately had a impact on my life. Not that I did not know what it is your writing about here I just did not have a name for it. "Double Bind", it is so perfect.
Thanks awake again....
Danny
Originally posted (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30423&start=15#p366673) on 13 Jun 2010 10:56:
Sorry I was a little late in moving my post here it is:
Awake you make it all sound so simple like you get it and the thousands of professionals in and out of the TTI don't. This is a amazing analysis, Double Bind. It is a model for the Program I attended yet I seriously don't believe that Joe Ricci or Dr. Gerald Davidson understood or where cognizant of, the complexities of this method/manipulation of communication, no way. They did not know this is what was going on nor the power of it (neither did I).
Now I have a little brain here and I will try to ask the questions I have been wanting to ask since this came about. Here is a comment you made above, "A better approach to understanding it is to ask the question ‘how does the TTI not represent a double bind context"? Please explain. Another question what happens when all the examples are not met you mentioned above and the program is not forcing you to do the behavioral modification exercises but rather Teaching. Isn't being taught optional in it's essence, you (the projectipant) decide.
danny
P.S. I am also posting this on the Double Bind thread.
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Is the TTI a game that a child has to play? If you can't make a child want, really want, therapy, doesn't it become a game that must be played, the therapy game?
Ya know what Awake, I used to take you seriously and now your falling and falling fast. You make wholesale statements, lump everything together, talk about just one form of TTI, like it is part of a larger conspiracy.
No, everything here or in the TTI is not a joke, actually it is very serious business, especially if your a student/resident, parent or a part of the TTI in any way.
Now you want to make this up to me, "suck it" and Whooter?????? Become more flexible in conversations.
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Is the TTI a game that a child has to play? If you can't make a child want, really want, therapy, doesn't it become a game that must be played, the therapy game?
Ya know what Awake, I used to take you seriously and now your falling and falling fast. You make wholesale statements, lump everything together, talk about just one form of TTI, like it is part of a larger conspiracy.
No, everything here or in the TTI is not a joke, actually it is very serious business, especially if your a student/resident, parent or a part of the TTI in any way.
Now you want to make this up to me, "suck it" and Whooter?????? Become more flexible in conversations.
What about my ideas can't you take seriously? I am very serious about what I'm saying.
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30423&start=0 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30423&start=0)
-
Hey Awake, since I really have no manners for "condescending pseudo-intellectual low self-esteem trolls" that go around taking their degrees and trying to force them down peoples throat, why don't you go try and make a living with your spiel somewhere else. Your scientific chemistry class of the physic Double Bind needs to be studied more, why don't cha take care of that. Instead of fucking with us working class folk who went through treatment and know something about it from the ground level.
Your posts show you have no clue as to what the solution is and more to do with the problem.
Oh and btw tell Ursus,Inculcate and the Admins that this act you have going here, smells of them, talk about conspiracies.
Where do they get you folks.
Quit fucking with people you don't agree with or better yet don't agree with you.
Also stop acting like your trying to help, it is blasphemy.
:rofl:
Yah. I knew it was only a matter of time ... when I first read these posts in the DOUBLE BIND: Mind Control in the TTI (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30423) thread:
Originally posted (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30423&p=362426#p363764) on 15 May 2010 17:54:
This is some of the best reading I have seem
Thanks for the insight of how these places and the ppl who run them work.
:shamrock: :shamrock:
I second that, WTF2. Awake has been a inspiration.
Danny
Originally posted (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30423&p=362426#p364705) on 27 May 2010 21:33:
:shamrock: :shamrock:
This intermediately had a impact on my life. Not that I did not know what it is your writing about here I just did not have a name for it. "Double Bind", it is so perfect.
Thanks awake again....
Danny
Originally posted (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30423&start=15#p366673) on 13 Jun 2010 10:56:
Sorry I was a little late in moving my post here it is:
Awake you make it all sound so simple like you get it and the thousands of professionals in and out of the TTI don't. This is a amazing analysis, Double Bind. It is a model for the Program I attended yet I seriously don't believe that Joe Ricci or Dr. Gerald Davidson understood or where cognizant of, the complexities of this method/manipulation of communication, no way. They did not know this is what was going on nor the power of it (neither did I).
Now I have a little brain here and I will try to ask the questions I have been wanting to ask since this came about. Here is a comment you made above, "A better approach to understanding it is to ask the question ‘how does the TTI not represent a double bind context"? Please explain. Another question what happens when all the examples are not met you mentioned above and the program is not forcing you to do the behavioral modification exercises but rather Teaching. Isn't being taught optional in it's essence, you (the projectipant) decide.
danny
P.S. I am also posting this on the Double Bind thread.
Jeesh Ursus , At any time here in the near future are you going to grow up and act like a big boy or are you just comfortable being a stooge.
One has nothing to do with the other my kneejerky, copy, posty, and pasty buddy.
I am not criticizing her double bind post, you idiot.
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I am not criticizing her double bind post, you idiot.
Good. How you view me as a person is one thing, but as for the truth and my research I won't be misinterpretted.
Double Bind: mind Control in the TTI
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30423&start=0 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30423&start=0)
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Danny, I have to note that what I see is that you have been playing your own game here on Fornits. I’m going to call it the ‘instigate and escalate personal attacks’ game.
Am I wrong about that?
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I am not criticizing her double bind post, you idiot.
Good. How you view me as a person is one thing, but as for the truth and my research I won't be misinterpreted.
Double Bind: mind Control in the TTI
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30423&start=0 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30423&start=0)
Awake, I am tired of the group gang bang of posters who don't believe nor accept fornits perception, facts (as you see them), ideologue or whatever else we want to call it.
I was not intentionally trying to get personal, sorry for getting carried away. As for your research and the truth well I will not impeach those credentials because your track record is stellar.
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Danny, I have to note that what I see is that you have been playing your own game here on Fornits. I’m going to call it the ‘instigate and escalate personal attacks’ game.
Am I wrong about that?
You know you are wrong or you would not be asking. You just don't like to be called out for your actions, as "suck it" said, "I will not be dragged into your tit for tat.
Instigate, I like to call it defender of the objective view, allowing people who need help to get it, programs that are productive being able to perform, holding a thought of life, "that one does not hold all the intelligence".
Last thing, it is so funny that Pile, Anne, Felice, Mark, Sharon, Ginger, ect....have personally attacked others and myself and you have never mentioned this in all your threads. But someone emails you with information and since I did direct my attacks at you, well here we are. You were fucking with "suck it" I got tired of it now you want to cry about it.
I don't play games to much, I say what I have to say and end it there.
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Mr. Awake, I suspect Danny's "game" involves having had his feelings hurt by some fornits posters and responding to that hurt by going on a crusade to protect fornits trolls (who actively promote kidnapping and imprisoning/abusing teenagers, something he claims to gravely oppose) from what he percieves as meaness similar to that which he encountered. Obviously, a fantastic, rational use of his free time!
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Danny, I have to note that what I see is that you have been playing your own game here on Fornits. I’m going to call it the ‘instigate and escalate personal attacks’ game.
Am I wrong about that?
You know you are wrong or you would not be asking. You just don't like to be called out for your actions, as "suck it" said, "I will not be dragged into your tit for tat.
Instigate, I like to call it defender of the objective view, allowing people who need help to get it, programs that are productive being able to perform, holding a thought of life, "that one does not hold all the intelligence".
Last thing, it is so funny that Pile, Anne, Felice, Mark, Sharon, Ginger, ect....have personally attacked others and myself and you have never mentioned this in all your threads. But someone emails you with information and since I did direct my attacks at you, well here we are. You were fucking with "suck it" I got tired of it now you want to cry about it.
I don't play games to much, I say what I have to say and end it there.
You are sayng you have not been playing games here on fornits to achieve your own end? I don’t think you are being honest with yourself. You have not been open and honest on this board, you have been manipulating the circumstances with the tools you had available to you.
I am admitting I’m playing games, and my game is ‘expose the game’. It’s as honest as I can be, given the circumstances. No one cannot play games. If you think that you can….
Then…. Get honest, Danny. Can you be honest here?
Double Bind: Mind control in the TTI
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30423&start=0 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30423&start=0)
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Seriously Danny, are you willing to honestly comment about your activity here?, or are you going to keep attacking my character?
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@ SUCK IT
If you felt I was out of line, I’m sorry for hurting your feelings.
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Well SUCK IT, it turns out you are a liar and willing to play dirty underhanded games to manipulate peoples view of programs. You pretended someone on fornits was blackmailing you into silence by threatening to approach your boss about things you admitted about yourself. You attempted to lie and discredit posters by posing as your own attacker to cast doubt on those critical of programs.
It is clear your program failed you, if you even went. You spoke of becoming a good and decent person because of your program. I wonder what you think you mean when you say you learned ‘honesty’ and ‘accountability’? To hear you come on here over and over preaching about your ‘positive’ growth in programs with such genuine sentiment only to show you would top that façade by choosing to fake being PosterX, lying about blackmailing yourself so that you could effectively blackmail fornits. It is clear that your program taught you nothing but how to be a cheat and a liar. Thanks for finally getting open about who you really are and the kind of values we can expect programs to impose on vulnerable youth.
You have no one to blame but yourself. You either chose to betray your values, or you really have no shame. I’m sure you will continue to lie to yourself and tell yourself that you feel good about what you did but you don’t. And the few folks who have backed your stances before are not going to come out in support of you doing what you did here, faking being a blackmail victim to falsely win over peoples sympathies. Those people who have been in support of you know what you did was wrong, even if they have been too afraid to say that openly.
It is unfortunate that you had to resort to such lies and deception to maintain your support for these places. I don’t expect that you will ever hold yourself accountable for your choosing to use lies and deception to manipulate someone to give up their child. It is sad to think there are desperate parents getting conned by people like you.
I’m sorry for giving you any extra attention than you are already getting over this, you are clearly getting off on wallowing in it.
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I turn off my PMs.
SUCH A WHO MOVE !!!!
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I turn off my PMs.
SUCH A WHO MOVE !!!!
He's not TheWho. All TheWho's posts were tied to his account earlier in the day.
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extremists.
(http://http://sentencing.typepad.com/.a/6a00d83451574769e20133ec8bfc3b970b-320wi)
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
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