Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Oscar on July 09, 2010, 03:20:05 AM
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This thread is for those, who somehow have gotten notice about their banishment and have to go there because they have not the network to find another solution.
The goal with this thread is to give advice to the future detainees about how to maneuver the program with less possible harm. Here are a couple of subjects:
What kind of disclosure can you give the therapists so they have news to tell your parents? The problem is that programs cost money. If they find nothing new, then the parents could find that the program is a waste of money. The local therapist may already have told what the problem is, but the solution for this problem did properly include that the parent had to make some kind of sacrifice.
Let me give you an example from my culture. In Denmark it is legal to drink alcohol once you are 16 if the percentage is under the safe limit of 16.5 (The limit is based on the latest research regarding the damaging effects of alcohol and a part of a new law in Denmark coming into effect January 1, 2011). As a parent I am urged by our government to give my child a limit. I should say that I would prefer if she did not drink more than 3 or 4 beers per night. The sacrifice I have to make is that I cannot drink, because unlike kittens human children can see and the message would not have any value if I am drunk all the time. In fact I have to be sober almost all the time so my child can observe that a good life can be obtained all the time. It is a sacrifice because I will limit my possibilities to network at my work because I will be social excluded from human resource activities, but because I consider myself a good parent I like most parents are prepared to put a hold on my career while I raise children. When parents send their child to a program, they believe that they don't need to make these sacrifices, because they have paid for others to make those.
They are wrong, because at some point they will have to attend family seminars where the staff will use methods seen at the seminars in the Pyramid Scheme business. They will participate in exercises which make them believe that they benefit from them while their wallets are emptied.
When you enter a program with levels, you want your normal life back. It is normal to be shocked because the staff will take any method in use to force you to confess a kind of sin. They know that you like 90 percent of all people value your look, so the first task is to destroy it. A haircut or more precisely removal of the hair is a step. Removal of personal religious stuff like the rings, necklace with a cross etc. is next. Clothes that doesn't fit or is made from worsted yarn, so it irritates your skin has been seen. Your beds can be without mattress or pillows, the sleeping bag may have destroyed zippers (Used a Turn-about Ranch (http://http://wiki.fornits.com/index.php?title=Turn-about_Ranch)), so you will freeze at night. When you enter the facility they will properly also do a manual body cavity search (Seen at CEDU (http://http://wiki.fornits.com/index.php?title=CEDU)).
Here it is important that you don't panic. The staff will use this panic as an excuse to restrain you just to show off power. Some might choose not to eat. It is something which can be done at most program without risking a beating. It would properly be a good advice to take to go 2-3 days without food, because then you will make the staff believe that you are easy to read. If you play along too quickly then they believe that you are manipulative. They want a reaction and they will go any length to achieve it. So don't eat and start crying on day 3. Fake a break down.
Then you have to make a shocking disclosure. But be careful with the subject. If you confess to use drugs falsely you will be subjected to education in drug use and put together with drug users. Once you have heard a year about all the peace and escape from problems the real drug users experience your body will react based on their stories and you want to try it. It is not a joke. A lot of teenagers have entered programs with no drug use only to turn to drugs once they are out.
Then there is alcohol use. While alcohol use at teenagers in Europe is no problem at all for the societies, some programs believe it is the same. You risk ending up at the same group.
Then there is molestation. While it can be correct that some have molested you or even raped you at some point, you have properly already told your present therapist about it or even your parents about it. You need to invent a new molester, because you cannot use information you have given before you entered the program. It would be regarded as a kind of manipulation because the program believes that you have been able to fool your parents all the time. It is also known practice in many cases that women who cry rape after a one-night-stand may not have been raped that night but at an earlier time. The sex makes their mind remember the abuse and then a person is wrongly accused. Do not name a person because there is no reason to put a person through a police investigation and risk charge for false accusation. A good story was that some spiked your non-alcoholic drink with a drug and when you woke you discovered all the blood and that you were naked.
An easy option is confess that you want to change religion but you have been afraid to tell your parents. Many programs are religious and they want to help you to find God and the price you will have to pay for this disclosure is that you will be forced to spend a lot of time in church so they can save you.
Another is that you prefer your own gender. It has the catch that you might be send to another program aimed to fix this. I believe that the standard treatment is to force people to smell to ammonia while looking at same-sex pornography (Method confirmed to be used at Copper Hills Youth Center (http://http://wiki.fornits.com/index.php?title=Copper_Hills_Youth_Center)).
Prepare your strategy from home. See to that you don't wear something which is important for you, because the staff will lose it. See to that your friend keeps important items because the program will advice your parents to rebuilt your room into a copy of the dorm. While we are talking friends, please make use of them. Make them create myspace/facebook memorial groups (RIP xxx. We lost her to facility yyy). Ask them to use respectful tone and treat you like you were a victim of a traffic accident. It is important both for you to be remembered and also for them to discuss the subject because your parents can earn discounts at some programs if they fool other parents to choose the same solution.
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Oscar, that's some bad advice right there. Don't make anything up or they'll keep you longer just to deal with the shit you just made up. You said it yourself, Oscar:
If they find nothing new, then the parents could find that the program is a waste of money.
Here's some advice for those not wanting to use violence: Say nothing. Drool. Shit your own pants (they're really not prepared to handle THIS) and then smear your own shit all over yourself and the walls. Don't move at all- make them drag you everywhere. Cooperate with absolutely nothing. You're going to be threatened, no matter what you do, so whatever it is, make them do it. Keep it up for longer than a few weeks and they really won't want anything to do with you.
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Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
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Does the staff not expect the teenagers to try to fight the program once the shock over having arrived at the program is over?
I do believe so. At Schuberts Minde (http://http://wiki.fornits.com/index.php?title=Shuberts_Minde) - a Danish gulag - they staff are trained to sit with children which is not talking for 28 hours straight!!! The children is not allowed to sleep and the staff is trained not to sleep. They did show such a situation on TV a month ago.
Would the best choice for a child not be faking to fight program and then faking to break down?
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People who never been in treatment programs giving advice on 'how to survive' it, this shit is laughable.
Shit your own pants (they're really not prepared to handle THIS) and then smear your own shit all over yourself and the walls. Don't move at all- make them drag you everywhere.
I hope this is some kind of joke. If you're serious you are seriously demented.
Real advice for the imaginary kids coming here before treatment: keep your dignity, and don't be afraid of the bullshit stories and advice you are hearing here because they aren't true. Just a mythology created by a group of insane extremists who post here.
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People who never been in treatment programs giving advice on 'how to survive' it, this shit is laughable.
Shit your own pants (they're really not prepared to handle THIS) and then smear your own shit all over yourself and the walls. Don't move at all- make them drag you everywhere.
I hope this is some kind of joke. If you're serious you are seriously demented.
Real advice for the imaginary kids coming here before treatment: keep your dignity, and don't be afraid of the bullshit stories and advice you are hearing here because they aren't true. Just a mythology created by a group of insane extremists who post here.
Sorry, but you are wrong; it IS true!
I recall a guy doing something similar (minus the shit), and he ended up getting out of Straight in a matter of weeks.
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Frod's right. Anytime the program has to actually expend resources on the kid, they get rid of the kid. The program business model is to take large sums of money and never spend it on actually doing anything for the kids. If they are forced to commit actual monetary resources (i.e. staff time) to a kid, they'll send that kid home, pronto.
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Definitely, refuse.. refuse.. refuse.. refuse...
I've seen this work. The other thing.. if they'll let you make phone calls to a complaint hotline.. they have to make food, shelter, and water available to you. If they refuse to provide these things in a timely manner.. call in a complaint.
Now.. seriously.. if they simply refuse to get you water because you are refusing to move from the middle of a trail in the woods.. that's on you.. Because when the kids in my group refused to move they tried this number on me, "SIR, you have to give us lunch."
My response was always, "You have to get and line and go to lunch. I'm not having it carried over here."
"SIR! I'm calling in a complaint."
"Before or after lunch?"
"After!"
"Good then, get up.. get moving and you can go do both at once!"
"Fuck you!"
Moral of the story, do not refuse to move in the middle of the damn woods.
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I think you have to call them on their game before you get wrapped up in it.
DOUBLE BIND: Mind Control in the TTI
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30423&start=0 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30423&start=0)
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Tantric screaming during "therapy" sessions is another good one. Every time they try to reduce your will to have an independent thought in your head, let rip with a wild howling scream and keep at it till they start bouncing off walls. You'll be joined soon enough by other kids, I've yet to see an entire group of children in a program pass that sort of excitement up.
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Here's some advice for those not wanting to use violence: Say nothing. Drool. Shit your own pants (they're really not prepared to handle THIS) and then smear your own shit all over yourself and the walls. Don't move at all- make them drag you everywhere. Cooperate with absolutely nothing. You're going to be threatened, no matter what you do, so whatever it is, make them do it. Keep it up for longer than a few weeks and they really won't want anything to do with you.
Then in a few years you can come here to fornits and say: “They made me sleep in my own shit!! The place is abusive, I tell you, I never did anything wrong. They never let me use the bathroom alone and they dragged me across the floor for no reason!! All these programs are alike, they all abuse kids. But now that I think back on my time there all the other kids got better graduated and moved on with their life, I wonder why? Well who gives a crap I dont have to mention that part on fornits.” lol
Tantric screaming during "therapy" sessions is another good one. Every time they try to reduce your will to have an independent thought in your head, let rip with a wild howling scream and keep at it till they start bouncing off walls. You'll be joined soon enough by other kids, I've yet to see an entire group of children in a program pass that sort of excitement up.
Then in a few years after you get out you can join the fornits group and say: “The place was abusive, I never did anything wrong and they placed me in isolation for no reason and had my meals alone. They wouldn’t even let me attend therapy sessions… what kind of therapeutic school is that? All these programs are alike, they all abuse kids” lol
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People who never been in treatment programs giving advice on 'how to survive' it, this shit is laughable.
Shit your own pants (they're really not prepared to handle THIS) and then smear your own shit all over yourself and the walls. Don't move at all- make them drag you everywhere.
I hope this is some kind of joke. If you're serious you are seriously demented.
Real advice for the imaginary kids coming here before treatment: keep your dignity, and don't be afraid of the bullshit stories and advice you are hearing here because they aren't true. Just a mythology created by a group of insane extremists who post here.
Sorry, but you are wrong; it IS true!
I recall a guy doing something similar (minus the shit), and he ended up getting out of Straight in a matter of weeks.
Even if it is true, are you going to advise a 15 year old going to a treatment program never once mentioned on fornits or any other site describing abuse, literally shit her pants and smear it over herself? You don't think that this would open up a whole new can of worms as far as what type of issues her parents and counselors perceive her to have? She'd probably get out of a residential treatment and sent to a insane asylum. To me this really is unbelivable anybody would ever suggest someone do this, its beyond ridiculous.
Frod's right. Anytime the program has to actually expend resources on the kid, they get rid of the kid. The program business model is to take large sums of money and never spend it on actually doing anything for the kids. If they are forced to commit actual monetary resources (i.e. staff time) to a kid, they'll send that kid home, pronto.
So the parents are going to take home a kid that smeared shit on herself? Or probably send her somewhere else even more restrictive. This is horrible advice, would actually suggest this to a kid going into a treatment center?
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Even if it is true, are you going to advise a 15 year old going to a treatment program never once mentioned on fornits or any other site describing abuse, literally shit her pants and smear it over herself? You don't think that this would open up a whole new can of worms as far as what type of issues her parents and counselors perceive her to have? She'd probably get out of a residential treatment and sent to a insane asylum. To me this really is unbelivable anybody would ever suggest someone do this, its beyond ridiculous.
Well that advice would be useful to someone prepared to get away from their parents until they are of legal age, but I'll concede it IS pretty extreme...no doubt.. but that can go to show what a fucked situation a kid in a program can be faced with...that they would have to go to this sort of an extreme just to get out of a place... (I mean, what are you going to do if they won't let you talk to anyone from the outside world? In that situation, one isn't too spoiled for choices.)
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Even if it is true, are you going to advise a 15 year old going to a treatment program never once mentioned on fornits or any other site describing abuse, literally shit her pants and smear it over herself? You don't think that this would open up a whole new can of worms as far as what type of issues her parents and counselors perceive her to have? She'd probably get out of a residential treatment and sent to a insane asylum. To me this really is unbelivable anybody would ever suggest someone do this, its beyond ridiculous.
Well that advice would be useful to someone prepared to get away from their parents until they are of legal age, but I'll concede it IS pretty extreme...no doubt.. but that can go to show what a fucked situation a kid in a program can be faced with...that they would have to go to this sort of an extreme just to get out of a place... (I mean, what are you going to do if they won't let you talk to anyone from the outside world? In that situation, one isn't too spoiled for choices.)
At Swift River all you had to do is break a couple of rules or try to run away more than once and you were kicked out. Some of the advice here is pretty bad and wouldnt do "any" kid any good. I can see why some of the kids here didnt do very well in their programs.
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This is a very interesting topic, and a very difficult one, in my view, to find clear answers too.
I mean.. I guess the best way really is to just play along and make it believable- that is, if you want to get out in a timely fashion, and avoid too much strife.
I don't know.. there were people there who did that. I couldn t do it though. Most of them were figurred out at some point anyway. To follow this path, you have to be able to do things to other people that you wouldn t want done to you. And you have to be abvle to lie all the time. It just wasn t for me, and although, it is easiest, if you pull it off, I hope it's not the path for most others either.
I can only speak from my personal experience, in the particular program that I was in.
The way that I survived, insofar as maintaining my identity within the environment was by standing my ground. I thought that most of the people there were weak, idiots, and immoral. I did not want to be like them, so I did what I had to, not to be. I took pride in who I was, and did not let them make me feel ashamed. I did not open up, ever.. no matter what. I did not allow myself to get caught up in any moments. I did not let them see any internal issue within me, because I knew that if I did, they could find a weakness within me, and perhaps, successfully utilize it to break me.
I learned all the rules of Daytop, and the ways of trickery, and I had a stronger intellect, then I think, any of the kids there, but I NEVER used any of that, except in self-defense. I never got the taste of blood. Once you get it, you are constantly driven to get more. I simply never participated in anything, except when forced. I tried to be happy everyday. I was myself. I believed that it was important to be happy, and I didn t see why that should change now. I really did believe that, and I think that, that is why I could defend it.
If someone is on like their 3rd or 4th program, don t get involved with them. They are usually program-people. They are usually dependent on programs, and no matter how they appear, they are not expecting to get out any time soon.. These people will usually get themselves in trouble intentionally, if they start doing too good, because programs have become their home.
Never back down.. Not even from the fiercest program advocate. You are always entitled to your own thoughts and beliefs. BUT never get emotional. I never got emotional, ever. I stood my ground, but I never let them get me angry, sad, or scared, and if they did, I didn t let them see it.
If the program has "contracts", don t get involved with them. they almost always come out. In the end, I gave full trust to no one. I considerred it a solitary battle. I helped others when I could, but I never put myself at risk.
These were some of my strategies. And, in a way, they worked. I survived the program, in a way, I was told by others, that no one else ever had. I was like an anomaly. they couldn t "get" me, and I did not want them too.
BUT in the end, this really didn t work, completely, because by the looks of things, after almost 6 months of being there, I was still looking at a minimum, of at least another 18, and probably longer, because the program always took longer then it was supposed. ALWAYS!
So while I was maintaining my identity, pride, etc., I had not advanced in the program, and I was getting scared, inside, because I either never would advance, and finally be free again, someday, or eventually, they would break me, which at this point, would have fucking killed me.
So, how did I get out. I threatened to kill myself. In the short time, I was in there, I had seen many do this, in all sorts of ways, written, spoken, even in poems..
But they believed me, and they were right to, because I was getting very close to it. The only thing that stopped me, was the idea, that once I did it, I couldn t go back and undo it. I was still hoping to find another way out. I may have ran first probably. My problem here was that, if I ever got caught, I would be violated on my probation, and from what I was told, do a little time in jail, and then have to start over at fucking Daytop. They sure had their teeth in my balls. I never thought society would get me like that..... seemed like a bad dream, and I was very angry with myself, for letting myself get into this.
Anyhow, they believed me.
Aaaaahhhh... But even this wasn t really a full solution, because I could have ended up somewhere else, like a loony bin or something...
so why not?
Well, I convinced the shrink there, that the program simply was no good for me, and was doing me harm, and that it was likely that I would take my own life. It was known by many that I had dropped it in my guilt. If I were to do it, well, why the fuck didn t they let me out. Thye would have to answer to that. Also, I called the psychologist at my school, shortly before, told her the place was fucking me up, and I needed to get out, and she actually took an interest in it. She was now calling them. I don t know what they spoke about. I only know that. That is what they told . They told me that "Mrs _____ had called, and accused me of begging her to let me back into the school." I did.. Well, I didn t beg, but I asked, and made my argument as to why this would be best. I also told her nicely, that she misled me, and she left a lot out about this place, or didn t actually know much about it, and they misrepresented it, in her visit. ( she had visited daytop prior to sending me. i was kinda like my school's guinea pig, although they honestly did think it would be good for me, except that, it seemed to be more or less the opposite of what they said it would be. )
This was good though... more eyes on them, in regards to Paul St. John.. more concern. The school psychologist liked me a lot, and I her, and she actually did, I believe give a fuck. I don t agree with everything about this woman, but when push comes to shove, she was a good-hearted person, with an honest desire to do what good she could in a not so great school.
I think at this point, they wanted me out, and they wanted me out smoothly...
But again, why didn t I end up, in some tighter place? Why did I just get to go back to my life, so long as I agreed to have a part-time job, and go to a private counselor once a week.
That is because I convinced my probation officer, who in the end was the final authority, in all things Paul, that I was a unique person. .... that I was self-directed, that it would be an absolute crime to fuck with me or my identity, and that I was a free-thinker, and that society needed people like me. I convinced her, that I WAS NOT my drug problem. I WAS ME. My drug problem was just something that I had. I was okay. I had full trust in myself, and she could too.
I convinced her of it so well, that she was preaching it to me after awhile.. and believe it or not, this woman who was suppose to be my punishing babysitter, throughhmy experience at Daytop, actually became a beneficial thing in my life.
How the hell did I convince her of all that? Honestly, none of it was planned.. I just spoke from the heart to someone willing to listen from the outside world.
and she believed me, because I believed me.
Paul St. John
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Even if it is true, are you going to advise a 15 year old going to a treatment program never once mentioned on fornits or any other site describing abuse, literally shit her pants and smear it over herself? You don't think that this would open up a whole new can of worms as far as what type of issues her parents and counselors perceive her to have? She'd probably get out of a residential treatment and sent to a insane asylum. To me this really is unbelivable anybody would ever suggest someone do this, its beyond ridiculous.
Well that advice would be useful to someone prepared to get away from their parents until they are of legal age, but I'll concede it IS pretty extreme...no doubt.. but that can go to show what a fucked situation a kid in a program can be faced with...that they would have to go to this sort of an extreme just to get out of a place... (I mean, what are you going to do if they won't let you talk to anyone from the outside world? In that situation, one isn't too spoiled for choices.)
At Swift River all you had to do is break a couple of rules or try to run away more than once and you were kicked out. Some of the advice here is pretty bad and wouldnt do "any" kid any good. I can see why some of the kids here didnt do very well in their programs.
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I guess they are all different, in Daytop ,everyone who left evetually came back.
They called it "splitting"
.. and I called that "the curse of the splitee".
You come back, and you start below bottom.
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There is a problem by refusing. We can all agree that the education they provide in most places are below the standards. They might construct their system in a matter which let the teenagers pass courses fast with little or no effort based on low local standards. The question is whether the local school district will accept the school papers from the facility.
I created this thread based on a case where a girl has plans for herself. She want to go to the United Kingdom once she is an adult. I know that Denmark where I come from will not give credit for a year in any U.S. High School because our standard is so much higher and include more than just studying for grades. Our industry is known to be innovative. If you look at something like Microsoft Business Solution, Skype and Gigabit Ethernet cards from Intel, you will learn that much of the basic research was made by Danes. Our politicians have decided not to give credits for education taken abroad (http://http://exchangestudentinfo.weebly.com/before-going-abroad.html). That's how it is with Denmark but what about the UK? What does it take to transfer credits from the US to the UK?
Can a place like the Academy at Sisters provide education, which the local school district will accept? If not it is not a matter of selling out of your dignity, because if a year is lost with education you have to do over once you are out, then it is a question about minimizing the timeout and most important minimizing the emotional scars and level of PTSD which is an automatic component from the program.
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There is a problem by refusing. We can all agree that the education they provide in most places are below the standards. They might construct their system in a matter which let the teenagers pass courses fast with little or no effort based on low local standards. The question is whether the local school district will accept the school papers from the facility.
I created this thread based on a case where a girl has plans for herself. She want to go to the United Kingdom once she is an adult. I know that Denmark where I come from will not give credit for a year in any U.S. High School because our standard is so much higher and include more than just studying for grades. Our industry is known to be innovative. If you look at something like Microsoft Business Solution, Skype and Gigabit Ethernet cards from Intel, you will learn that much of the basic research was made by Danes. Our politicians have decided not to give credits for education taken abroad (http://http://exchangestudentinfo.weebly.com/before-going-abroad.html). That's how it is with Denmark but what about the UK? What does it take to transfer credits from the US to the UK?
Can a place like the Academy at Sisters provide education, which the local school district will accept? If not it is not a matter of selling out of your dignity, because if a year is lost with education you have to do over once you are out, then it is a question about minimizing the timeout and most important minimizing the emotional scars and level of PTSD which is an automatic component from the program.
Oscar the link you provided saying that abroad highschool credits will not be accepted also states that kids will be placed in isolation, detained and will not be able to drink on Fridays or socialize with peers!! Its propaganda, the only word missing is Gulag. Was this report the thoughts of your Government or of Tuborg? Do you see what I mean?
It seems you are being fed some false information for the wrong reasons.
Your country has been struggling for decades and is drowning in alcohol* and your government is powerless to help your own young people because they are controlled by private institutions like Tuborg and Carlsberg who produce great quantities of alcohol for your kids. Someone went to a movie theater to see Harry Potter and they advertised Smirnoff and Tuborg to the kids. Countries have offered to help but your government wants to do it alone, but they cant because they are controlled by the advertising dollar. You live there and must know this.
Many countries, including the United States, have been trying to help increase Denmark’s productivity which has been dropping ** (due in great part to Denmarks present fixation on alcohol) by shipping some developmental pieces over there like Microsoft Business Solution, Skype and Gigabit Ethernet cards from Intel (as you mentioned), which are relatively simple and if successful would boast morale for your country and shift your main focus away from companies like Carlsberg and Tuborg. I can see by your post that you are proud of these accomplishments so it appears to be working.
*But a report commissioned by the European Union, released in June, concludes that however much the continent associates alcohol with Ireland, much of the EU has a serious drinking problem -- with Denmark being something of a standout.
Link (http://http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/3167.htm)
**In addition to the global crisis, Denmark has an underlying growth problem, and is projected to have the fourth-lowest productivity growth among Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) countries in the decade to come; it dropped from sixth to twelfth place among the richest OECD nations from 1997 to 2007.
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I happened to be very involved with products from Microsoft Business Solution 10 years ago when Microsoft hadn't discovered the Golden egg. The two Danish firms which made the programs were both founded in the 1980's. They were on the Danish stock exchange until Microsoft purchased them.
Skype was invented by a Dane and a man from Sweden. They placed their holding company in Luxembourg due to tax issues. It is normal. Microsoft is sending all invoices to the Europe market form Ireland because if you place firm in Ireland you don't have to pay income tax for 10 years.
Some Danes invented a new line of Ethernet controllers back when Token Ring was the dominating protocol in Europe. Intel discovered the firm and paid the founders. They were in the process of placing their European development department outside Ballerup in Denmark where they built a huge house when the dot-com crisis came. As result Intel sold the building and move their development back home.
Our alcohol politics is criticized because Denmark had a huge immigration from the third world the recent 30 years. They are advocating for both a total alcohol ban and special sharia courts for those who prefer them instead of the normal court system. That's properly why the Danes see spoke persons as representative for an attack on our entire culture and a betrayal if the soldiers fighting terrorism in Afghanistan.
Regarding accreditation you are welcome to write our department of education. The matter was discussed on Danish message board last year because some students felt that they wasted a year abroad and had to start high school a year behind their former classmates, but we had a number of high profile cases where people in important position fooled everyone by having taken their papers at diploma mills. The general attitude in the industry is that school papers from abroad should be ignored. Diploma mills are wellknown in the U.S. and the Academy at Ivy Ridge is a good example. It is not that diploma mills is a bad thing in all cases. In fact there are a number of them in Denmark which function as a kind of development aid to the third world where every politician must have a doctor degree regardless of how many years they have hidden themselves out in the bushes. They wouldn't stand a chance in our normal education system, so there are private alternatives. Knightsbridge University did even sell diplomas to the U.S. market.
But there are more problems that just accreditation. The difference between a tax-based welfare society and volunteer based society causes problems. I can give you an example our search engine found. It is community service (http://http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=AgEKK0iUVZkDQndoZigTFCjsy6IX;_ylv=3?qid=20100630235458AAcRdR0) which is a severe punishment. It can create problems if a background check discovers some photos of suspicious activities. There will no job interview then where the photos could be explained.
In general I don't believe that Denmark has a problem with alcohol. Denmark has a lot of problems which is quite severe. Here is a video clip from a part of Copenhagen (http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-m4NmPJTlMg). It is a news broadcast. Please notice that no police is coming during the interview. The police know that they have to be +50 policemen in order to avoid an ambush. Please notice how the interview with the mayor continues despite the fact that they are about to be stoned. They are just used to this as Christian Danes.
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I happened to be very involved with products from Microsoft Business Solution 10 years ago when Microsoft hadn't discovered the Golden egg. The two Danish firms which made the programs were both founded in the 1980's. They were on the Danish stock exchange until Microsoft purchased them.
Skype was invented by a Dane and a man from Sweden. They placed their holding company in Luxembourg due to tax issues. It is normal. Microsoft is sending all invoices to the Europe market form Ireland because if you place firm in Ireland you don't have to pay income tax for 10 years.
Some Danes invented a new line of Ethernet controllers back when Token Ring was the dominating protocol in Europe. Intel discovered the firm and paid the founders. They were in the process of placing their European development department outside Ballerup in Denmark where they built a huge house when the dot-com crisis came. As result Intel sold the building and move their development back home.
Our alcohol politics is criticized because Denmark had a huge immigration from the third world the recent 30 years. They are advocating for both a total alcohol ban and special sharia courts for those who prefer them instead of the normal court system. That's properly why the Danes see spoke persons as representative for an attack on our entire culture and a betrayal if the soldiers fighting terrorism in Afghanistan.
Regarding accreditation you are welcome to write our department of education. The matter was discussed on Danish message board last year because some students felt that they wasted a year abroad and had to start high school a year behind their former classmates, but we had a number of high profile cases where people in important position fooled everyone by having taken their papers at diploma mills. The general attitude in the industry is that school papers from abroad should be ignored. Diploma mills are wellknown in the U.S. and the Academy at Ivy Ridge is a good example. It is not that diploma mills is a bad thing in all cases. In fact there are a number of them in Denmark which function as a kind of development aid to the third world where every politician must have a doctor degree regardless of how many years they have hidden themselves out in the bushes. They wouldn't stand a chance in our normal education system, so there are private alternatives. Knightsbridge University did even sell diplomas to the U.S. market.
But there are more problems that just accreditation. The difference between a tax-based welfare society and volunteer based society causes problems. I can give you an example our search engine found. It is community service (http://http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=AgEKK0iUVZkDQndoZigTFCjsy6IX;_ylv=3?qid=20100630235458AAcRdR0) which is a severe punishment. It can create problems if a background check discovers some photos of suspicious activities. There will no job interview then where the photos could be explained.
In general I don't believe that Denmark has a problem with alcohol. Denmark has a lot of problems which is quite severe. Here is a video clip from a part of Copenhagen (http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-m4NmPJTlMg). It is a news broadcast. Please notice that no police is coming during the interview. The police know that they have to be +50 policemen in order to avoid an ambush. Please notice how the interview with the mayor continues despite the fact that they are about to be stoned. They are just used to this as Christian Danes.
I didnt realize that you were referring to a WWASP program. They dont represent the typical level of education here in the US. I stated the alcohol situation in Denmark as people outside your country view it and as it compares to other countries in the EU.
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Definitely, refuse.. refuse.. refuse.. refuse...
I've seen this work. The other thing.. if they'll let you make phone calls to a complaint hotline.. they have to make food, shelter, and water available to you. If they refuse to provide these things in a timely manner.. call in a complaint.
Now.. seriously.. if they simply refuse to get you water because you are refusing to move from the middle of a trail in the woods.. that's on you.. Because when the kids in my group refused to move they tried this number on me, "SIR, you have to give us lunch."
My response was always, "You have to get and line and go to lunch. I'm not having it carried over here."
"SIR! I'm calling in a complaint."
"Before or after lunch?"
"After!"
"Good then, get up.. get moving and you can go do both at once!"
"Fuck you!"
Moral of the story, do not refuse to move in the middle of the damn woods.
Sounds like sane advice to me.
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This is a very interesting topic, and a very difficult one, in my view, to find clear answers too.
I mean.. I guess the best way really is to just play along and make it believable- that is, if you want to get out in a timely fashion, and avoid too much strife.
I don't know.. there were people there who did that. I couldn t do it though. Most of them were figurred out at some point anyway. To follow this path, you have to be able to do things to other people that you wouldn t want done to you. And you have to be abvle to lie all the time. It just wasn t for me, and although, it is easiest, if you pull it off, I hope it's not the path for most others either.
I can only speak from my personal experience, in the particular program that I was in.
The way that I survived, insofar as maintaining my identity within the environment was by standing my ground. I thought that most of the people there were weak, idiots, and immoral. I did not want to be like them, so I did what I had to, not to be. I took pride in who I was, and did not let them make me feel ashamed. I did not open up, ever.. no matter what. I did not allow myself to get caught up in any moments. I did not let them see any internal issue within me, because I knew that if I did, they could find a weakness within me, and perhaps, successfully utilize it to break me.
I learned all the rules of Daytop, and the ways of trickery, and I had a stronger intellect, then I think, any of the kids there, but I NEVER used any of that, except in self-defense. I never got the taste of blood. Once you get it, you are constantly driven to get more. I simply never participated in anything, except when forced. I tried to be happy everyday. I was myself. I believed that it was important to be happy, and I didn t see why that should change now. I really did believe that, and I think that, that is why I could defend it.
If someone is on like their 3rd or 4th program, don t get involved with them. They are usually program-people. They are usually dependent on programs, and no matter how they appear, they are not expecting to get out any time soon.. These people will usually get themselves in trouble intentionally, if they start doing too good, because programs have become their home.
Never back down.. Not even from the fiercest program advocate. You are always entitled to your own thoughts and beliefs. BUT never get emotional. I never got emotional, ever. I stood my ground, but I never let them get me angry, sad, or scared, and if they did, I didn t let them see it.
If the program has "contracts", don t get involved with them. they almost always come out. In the end, I gave full trust to no one. I considerred it a solitary battle. I helped others when I could, but I never put myself at risk.
These were some of my strategies. And, in a way, they worked. I survived the program, in a way, I was told by others, that no one else ever had. I was like an anomaly. they couldn t "get" me, and I did not want them too.
BUT in the end, this really didn t work, completely, because by the looks of things, after almost 6 months of being there, I was still looking at a minimum, of at least another 18, and probably longer, because the program always took longer then it was supposed. ALWAYS!
So while I was maintaining my identity, pride, etc., I had not advanced in the program, and I was getting scared, inside, because I either never would advance, and finally be free again, someday, or eventually, they would break me, which at this point, would have fucking killed me.
So, how did I get out. I threatened to kill myself. In the short time, I was in there, I had seen many do this, in all sorts of ways, written, spoken, even in poems..
But they believed me, and they were right to, because I was getting very close to it. The only thing that stopped me, was the idea, that once I did it, I couldn t go back and undo it. I was still hoping to find another way out. I may have ran first probably. My problem here was that, if I ever got caught, I would be violated on my probation, and from what I was told, do a little time in jail, and then have to start over at fucking Daytop. They sure had their teeth in my balls. I never thought society would get me like that..... seemed like a bad dream, and I was very angry with myself, for letting myself get into this.
Anyhow, they believed me.
Aaaaahhhh... But even this wasn t really a full solution, because I could have ended up somewhere else, like a loony bin or something...
so why not?
Well, I convinced the shrink there, that the program simply was no good for me, and was doing me harm, and that it was likely that I would take my own life. It was known by many that I had dropped it in my guilt. If I were to do it, well, why the fuck didn t they let me out. Thye would have to answer to that. Also, I called the psychologist at my school, shortly before, told her the place was fucking me up, and I needed to get out, and she actually took an interest in it. She was now calling them. I don t know what they spoke about. I only know that. That is what they told . They told me that "Mrs _____ had called, and accused me of begging her to let me back into the school." I did.. Well, I didn t beg, but I asked, and made my argument as to why this would be best. I also told her nicely, that she misled me, and she left a lot out about this place, or didn t actually know much about it, and they misrepresented it, in her visit. ( she had visited daytop prior to sending me. i was kinda like my school's guinea pig, although they honestly did think it would be good for me, except that, it seemed to be more or less the opposite of what they said it would be. )
This was good though... more eyes on them, in regards to Paul St. John.. more concern. The school psychologist liked me a lot, and I her, and she actually did, I believe give a fuck. I don t agree with everything about this woman, but when push comes to shove, she was a good-hearted person, with an honest desire to do what good she could in a not so great school.
I think at this point, they wanted me out, and they wanted me out smoothly...
But again, why didn t I end up, in some tighter place? Why did I just get to go back to my life, so long as I agreed to have a part-time job, and go to a private counselor once a week.
That is because I convinced my probation officer, who in the end was the final authority, in all things Paul, that I was a unique person. .... that I was self-directed, that it would be an absolute crime to fuck with me or my identity, and that I was a free-thinker, and that society needed people like me. I convinced her, that I WAS NOT my drug problem. I WAS ME. My drug problem was just something that I had. I was okay. I had full trust in myself, and she could too.
I convinced her of it so well, that she was preaching it to me after awhile.. and believe it or not, this woman who was suppose to be my punishing babysitter, throughhmy experience at Daytop, actually became a beneficial thing in my life.
How the hell did I convince her of all that? Honestly, none of it was planned.. I just spoke from the heart to someone willing to listen from the outside world.
and she believed me, because I believed me.
Paul St. John
Paul,
damn my man this was a good piece to read, I can attest that you do have a inner conviction to yourself, may you never take for granted this gift. I'm sure you will not.
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I'm sorry to break it to you but faking it in a treatment program has been tried many times before.Do you really think that the counselors and staff don't realize when someone is being real, any person can easily recognize when someone is being honest and getting real and having real emotional breakthroughs. This is why they do group therapy because it helps get people to address things they might not otherwise address without other people knowing. Some people here think it's abusive but the bottom line is it works. By telling kids to fake it in treatment you just set them up for failure. The best advice for someone going into treatment is to be completely honest and be open to what goes on. Dont refuse, do the opposite. Do exactly what they say. This will get you through the program the quickest, and really is the best advice. Having serious personal breakthroughs can be a powerful experience and a life changing event. The posters here want to sour an experience for people before they even have a chance to see it for themselves. But the advice isn't even that good, plenty of kids came up with the plan to fake it all on their own before the internets and it doesn't work. Be completely honest and open yourself to the experience and don't feel shame like the posters here want you to feel for being open to change.
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LOL! in the place that I went to, even the counselors faked it. It was all a bunch of bullshit and everyone knew it.
Paul
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LOL! in the place that I went to, even the counselors faked it. It was all a bunch of bullshit and everyone knew it.
Paul
PS "Suck_IT", have I mentioned latly how much I dislike you?
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Paul,
damn my man this was a good piece to read, I can attest that you do have a inner conviction to yourself, may you never take for granted this gift. I'm sure you will not.
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Thanks Danny. We do share some of the same values.
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:karma:
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Incorrect- I dislike you.
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:karma:
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Well.. No.. see.. you re wrong.
In addition to disliking most of your ideas, I add up all that I know about you, and get somewhat of a picture.
Your avatar for example. I can t imagine a person who would choose an avatar such as yours. Look at the face she is making. This is how you choose to represent yourself.
Your name - " Suck It". Who the fuck would choose a name as stupid as that, but an idiot?
Who would log into a chat just to exclaim " Suck It!", and then leave? An idiot.
And you have nothing better to do with your time, but come here, and disagree with everybody, and try to make them seem like they are crazy. You haven t change anyone's mind. You know that you never will, but you like to try to make other people look stupid, because it makes you feel smart.
Paul
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Well.. No.. see.. you re wrong.
In addition to disliking most of your ideas, I add up all that I know about you, and get somewhat of a picture.
Your avatar for example. I can t imagine a person who would choose an avatar such as yours. Look at the face she is making. This is how you choose to represent yourself.
Your name - " Suck It". Who the fuck would choose a name as stupid as that, but an idiot?
Who would log into a chat just to exclaim " Suck It!", and then leave? An idiot.
And you have nothing better to do with your time, but come here, and disagree with everybody, and try to make them seem like they are crazy. You haven t change anyone's mind. You know that you never will, but you like to try to make other people look stupid, because it makes you feel smart.
I am simply expressing my opinion, that I don't like you. If you are to judge me based on that, I would have to say that you are displaying the initial signs of madness.
Paul
I usually don’t jump in on this stuff because it comes back to bite me when running for office, but knocking someone because of their username is pretty lame especially when you had the whole world open to you,it was your one chance in life to be creative and choose any name in the world and you chose “Paul St. John”. You have got to be kidding me right? Did your mother force you to use this so that you could borrow her laptop after confession? Then you overlook names like “Pile of Dead kids” and pick on the username“Suck It”… how about Queef? You never commented on that one. What the fuck is your problem? If you have a beef with someone just be out with it. Don’t make fun of someones name when you go by Pope John Paul or whatever the fuck you call yourself.
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Paul St. John is my actual name.
You on the other hand, asshole, haven t any right to write any ideas under the name of John McCain.
He resisted the vietnamese under real fucking torture. he refused to accept their propaganda.
He maintained himself through spirit and conviction. He communicated secretly with others who were unwilling to give up, and together they formed a tightly knit survival/support group.
This is a man, who when the his captors televised a bullshit fake mass on Christmas, to show how well they were treating American POW, instigated his captors, to intentionally get his ass kicked and show the world what was really going on.
If you have something to say to me, say it under your regular username. Grow some fucking balls.. Pussy!
Paul