Fornits
General Interest => Open Free for All => Topic started by: reformed12stepper on July 03, 2010, 12:31:09 AM
-
I have read the AA criticisms with interest on this forum and a few others. I am a guy who took way too many drugs for most of my 20s. When I decided that it had gotten way more out of hand than I ever intended 12 steps seemed like the most logical choice. But after going a few times I did have a few concerns. As an openly gay man organized religion has never been for me. Who wants to believe in a God that doesn’t even like him? Most of the people there had gotten religion when they gave up the drugs but I knew this was not the thing for me. There were a few others like me but they believed in using the group for the higher power thing. I didn’t get that at all. I mean I had done some pretty stupid shit to get myself in this state and I was hardly alone. So the idea that people who had done some equally stupid things held all of the answers made no sense at all.
Most of my fellow 12 steppers were good decent, and sincere people who really cared about me, this was touching. But they did seem to have the view that any friends who even drank wine with dinner or smoked a single joint had no place in my life. As my closest friends and family, some of the very people who had been gently urging me to get help for years fitted this category it made no sense. In this respect 12 steps were a little like a cult. I also read a bit about these places that exercise peer pressure a lot and almost force kids to lie or exaggerate only to use it against them. I have to say that while 12 steps never exercised that kind of extreme pressure, it sometimes would get a bit competitive. Like whose behavior before reaching rock bottom was the most hardcore. Or who had endured a more insane personal life on the road to drug abuse. I would leave feeling guilty because I did not have a childhood that was filled with abuse or any overwhelming issues that lead me to take drugs. I just took them because it seemed like a fun thing to do at the time and I let it get out of hand. The way some people do with food. But I would say that and sometimes feel a level of judgement.
I also tried a group just for gay people. It had 3 factions. The first was the dirty old men who were mainly there to try and pick up. The second were the lesbians who liked to cry a lot. Then there were the younger gay guys who were busy running away from the dirty old men. I guess that was me. So I decided to give up on 12 steps.
I went to a really good rehab and got some one on one counselling. They had a group therapy option but I didn’t go in for it. I think that the rehab as much as anything gave me a few weeks of alone time to just think things over. This with lots of ongoing counselling has been helpful for me.
In hindsight there were some good things about 12 steps. I felt like the moral inventory idea was helpful for me because I was forced to take stock and think about what the drug abuse was causing me to loose. The people were also very kind mostly if a little strange. Their intentions I don’t believe were bad.
But I realized they were missing the bigger picture one crisp evening when I bumped into a woman from the first group I went to. It had been the kind of day that was cloudless but cold enough to need a jacket. I had spent the afternoon watching my small nephew kick his first goal in a football game. When it was over he ran at me muddy and elated demanding to know whether I had seen his triumph. I was on my way to meet some loyal old friends for dinner at a favourite restaurant. Life felt great. The woman and I exchanged pleasantries and I asked what she was up to. Sure enough she was planning to spend her Saturday night in a cold church hall on uncomfortable chairs drinking freeze dried coffee. Off to 12 steps. She had gone daily for 3 years. She asked if I was sure I shouldn’t be working on my self and told me I was always welcome back. I thanked her, gave her a hug and declined. Then i walked off into my happy drug free life.
-
There is always room for another opinion on the 12 steps. Here is one more, you wrote briefly about the 4 step, which was great, I thought for a moment there you were going to write more on your experiences of the steps.
How they helped you and so on but you decided to talk about the coffee, chairs, young gay people, old gay people and cold churches.
AA is not necessarily responsible for providing you with decent, young attractive gay people nor comfy, warm chairs with a rosy building. I am sorry your expectations were so high, what a AA does provide is a Book for you to read and practice at your leisure and if you want help no matter if your gay or not, if you really want to you can find a decent role model who happens to be gay in AA, they are there.
If your still having problems or have given up, come see us at, "The Triangle" in Atlanta, GA. plenty of good healthy gay folks and you can run into Elton John on a Friday night if your lucky.
I guess it is just like a neighborhood, we move in and realize our neighbors are not the kinda folk we want to live next to. So we have two choices, 1) we can move to another neighborhood or 2) we can learn to accept all kinds of folks. That is my short version.
-
There is always room for another opinion on the 12 steps. Here is one more, you wrote briefly about the 4 step, which was great, I thought for a moment there you were going to write more on your experiences of the steps.
How they helped you and so on but you decided to talk about the coffee, chairs, young gay people, old gay people and cold churches.
AA is not necessarily responsible for providing you with decent, young attractive gay people nor comfy, warm chairs with a rosy building. I am sorry your expectations were so high, what a AA does provide is a Book for you to read and practice at your leisure and if you want help no matter if your gay or not, if you really want to you can find a decent role model who happens to be gay in AA, they are there.
If your still having problems or have given up, come see us at, "The Triangle" in Atlanta, GA. plenty of good healthy gay folks and you can run into Elton John on a Friday night if your lucky.
I guess it is just like a neighborhood, we move in and realize our neighbors are not the kinda folk we want to live next to. So we have two choices, 1) we can move to another neighborhood or 2) we can learn to accept all kinds of folks. That is my short version.
Maybe I'm missing something, but I fail to see where reformed12stepper wrote about a "4 step." Is there perhaps an oblique reference that I'm just not picking up on?
-
Well my biggest issue was actually the "powerlessness" philosophy. I just do better when I have to take control, On one hand they make you do a moral inventory to take responsibility, on the other hand if you don't put yourself in the hands of others or god it doesn't work. I also found it hugely problematic that they expected me to discourage loved ones from drinking around me. I was not even there for alcohol abuse. Why should my family and friends have to take responsibility for my errors? My point about the chairs was also not to whine, it was to point out that going to the same place every night for a "meeting" is a great way of missing out on all the things that make drug free life great. Like sharing time with family and friends. I also dont know about your final analogy. I guess I moved neighborhoods. But not because i couldn't stand the people. I liked many of the people (except ironically in the group just for Gay people) it was the model i didnt. I felt like i was taking one addiction and replacing it with another.
At the end of the day I am happy for you if 12 steps did it or you. But it didn't work for me and i think it is a good idea for more people to have a look at all the options because there are other things that can work. But when most of us think of getting a loved one help we think of 12 steps
-
"reformed12stepper"
Well my biggest issue was actually the "powerlessness" philosophy.
They are actually just referring to alcohol, I am powerless over alcohol. For me this is a true statement. I don't necessarily relate this to the rest of my life. Now I can turn my will over to a god but remember this is but a suggestion. If you read the book.
I just do better when I have to take control,
OK
On one hand they make you do a moral inventory to take responsibility,
No one is making you do anything, you can either do it or not. AA is not the people (per say) AA is what you decide it is for you.
on the other hand if you don't put yourself in the hands of others or god it doesn't work.
That is not true at all, I do not put myself in other hands and never have, I asked for advice and received it. God is a private decision.
I also found it hugely problematic that they expected me to discourage loved ones from drinking around me. I was not even there for alcohol abuse. Why should my family and friends have to take responsibility for my errors?
If your in a AA meeting or hanging around AA folks they will rightly assume you have a alcohol problem, most folks in AA today have had issues with drugs and alcohol, usually when you have abused one then the other would follow. Your family and friends are not taking responsibility for your problems with drugs, by not drinking around you, most close friends and family will do this out of love for you.
My point about the chairs was also not to whine, it was to point out that going to the same place every night for a "meeting" is a great way of missing out on all the things that make drug free life great. Like sharing time with family and friends.
Going to a meeting for 1 hour every night is not asking to much out of me, when you consider I drank and drugged every day for 10 years. It is called detoxing and changing behavior. (short version)
I was not missing out on life, I was building a life I am enjoying today. This was 22 years ago.
I'm sure when you and I were getting high like we were, there was very little sharing time with our family and friends.
Be grateful for the life you have today, try not to take all the credit because we did not do it all by ourselves.
I also dont know about your final analogy. I guess I moved neighborhoods. But not because i couldn't stand the people. I liked many of the people (except ironically in the group just for Gay people) it was the model i didnt. I felt like i was taking one addiction and replacing it with another.
At the end of the day I am happy for you if 12 steps did it or you. But it didn't work for me and i think it is a good idea for more people to have a look at all the options because there are other things that can work. But when most of us think of getting a loved one help we think of 12 steps
I have moved on for the most part from AA, in so far as going to a meeting on a regular bases. I will forever keep the 12 steps close to my heart because I believe they are a miracle of this past century. As far as the groups and many of the people I meet/met in AA, that is another thing. AA for good or bad allows you to say, do, act and promote AA anyway you want, they do not actively govern. So folks can act as weird as they want and call it AA.
Well that is why I say the people are not necessarily AA, the AA literature is.
Did AA work for me, yes it did, the AA 12 steps. Replace Alcohol for Drugs in the first step and your on your way.
I challenge anyone to read the steps and say they could not help you, even if you are a atheist. I have 2 friends that are that credit the 12 steps to helping them.
The 12 steps were not written in stone they can be flexible.
Thanks for talking with me about this. I wish you well and I am very happy you came through your drug problem in one piece. I can only hope you have much success.
-
http://http://bit.ly/8XYk7G
Article by Maia - very pertinent to the topic - and well worth reading.
-
http://http://bit.ly/8XYk7G
Article by Maia - very pertinent to the topic - and well worth reading.
Buzz this is a great article, I have read it many times and encourage this poster and others to read it. Maia nails it on the head.
Maia's point though is often taken into consideration after folks have reached AA. It would be next to impossible to research help for yourself while your under the influences of alcohol and drugs everyday.
I am here today and am as successful as I am because of the additional work I did outside of AA. Though I do credit AA for helping me build my foundation.
As I have said before on this site, the interpretation of AA is so out of line, it is comical at times. Everyone here has a right to their opinion of AA, I am not here as the vanguard of AA. I just try to present the experiences I have had for over 20 years.
Buzz don't put as much emphasis on the folks in AA, try to let AA speak through the literature.
-
That was a good article. i wish there were more like it. Most people think that ideas like "reaching rock bottom" and doing the 12 steps are the only answer because the other options are not as widely publicized. Which is kind of my point danny. When you are taking a lot of stuff you go to the most publicized option which is 12 steps. When it was not my thing i felt like a real failure and got a little worse for a while. I was lucky to have a relative who is a doctor & she said some of her patients had privately complained of the same thing. This gave me a lot of hope.
I should add that 12 steps is not cult like in the traditional dramatic sense. Some chapters are also possibly different to others and more relaxed. But it is a gradual sort of thing. Like at first they say take what you want and get rid of the rest. But then when you do you can be accused of being in denial. Like with the whole issue of powerlessless. Even if you are religious there is still this idea that god gave you freewill so if you exercised it to snort thousands of dollars by yourself then surely you can exercise it to turn your life around. This sounds arrogant but if you feel like shit for doing some of the bad things that you did on drugs as most of us invariably do, then why is it so bad to take the credit for turning your life around? Why do you have to surrender to anyone's will be it god or he group?
There was also a subtle level of emotional blackmail. I mean they dont say cut off your friends but anyone not on the "journey" should be held at a distance. Or friends being expected to refrain from drinking out of love. If they don't is it because they don't love you? Even if your issue is drug abuse not alcohol? I saw one woman being advised to divorce her husband of 10 years for not being on the journey. That seemed a bit strong to me. I did not think anyone was in a position to give advice on such a big issue.
I should add that many meetings go for far longer than an hour. Some people are encouraged to do more than give up an hour of their lives, they are urged to give up loved ones and friends not on the same path. This can ultimately mean that if you are not careful you can miss out on all the stuff that makes drug free life great! Thats not to say aa does not work for some but given the choice of spending my time and putting my trust in the hands of strangers, or enjoying the company of loved ones the latter will win for me every time.
-
I'm tired of being tormented to hell, that's what I'm tired of.
-
I'm tired of being tormented to hell, that's what I'm tired of.
(http://http://news.sky.com/sky-news/content/StaticFile/jpg/2003/Sep/Week2/1162741.jpg)
Daisy quacks out a song
-
"reformed12stepper" wrote:
That was a good article. i wish there were more like it. Most people think that ideas like "reaching rock bottom" and doing the 12 steps are the only answer because the other options are not as widely publicized.
Well I wish that was the case but it is not, the church still reins supreme in the department of where do most folks go looking for help with there addictions.
Listen, hitting rock bottom is a relative term, you do not have to loose everything, to hit "rock bottom". Here is another term widely used, for any change to happen one must feel pain. That is a very accurate statement.
Which is kind of my point danny. When you are taking a lot of stuff you go to the most publicized option which is 12 steps. When it was not my thing i felt like a real failure and got a little worse for a while. I was lucky to have a relative who is a doctor & she said some of her patients had privately complained of the same thing. This gave me a lot of hope.
Well most of the folks I have talked to had never even heard of AA at first, I did not. I did not even know AA existed until I was in a detox program for 15 days. The first treatment plan I had heard of was detox then church.
I should add that 12 steps is not cult like in the traditional dramatic sense. Some chapters are also
possibly different to others and more relaxed. But it is a gradual sort of thing. Like at first they say take what you want and get rid of the rest. But then when you do you can be accused of being in denial. Like with the whole issue of powerlessless.
I am not sure where you got this cult dynamic from but I can only assume it is from the same literature and experiences many folks here have been through.
When you talk of or about AA there are two dynamics happening the literature and the people. Yes the people can be cultist, brainwashed and act like robots. They can be dirty old men and women, they can be all walks of live here in America. Then there is the AA literature that I read and understand the principles they are teaching, which are basic life values.
AA is not made up of chapters, they are groups which you give way to much power to.
Who is "they", that is telling you these things. If you had "read" the book you would not be referencing people as much nor would your "dependence" be placed in the people in AA.
The only issue with powerlessness is your misunderstanding of the phrase because you have not read the book. You are paraphrasing the same opinion everyone else here has. They choose to have there opinion of what powerlessness is, which is fine just stop saying this is what AA is saying.
Even if you are religious there is still this idea that god gave you freewill so if you exercised it to snort thousands of dollars by yourself then surely you can exercise it to turn your life around. This sounds arrogant but if you feel like shit for doing some of the bad things that you did on drugs as most of us invariably do, then why is it so bad to take the credit for turning your life around? Why do you have to surrender to anyone's will be it god or he group?
You don't have to, AA does not demand that you choose a god as you explained above, pick whatever one you want or not. There are many atheists in AA.
Where are you getting your information from or are you looking for this to suit your opinion of AA.
There was also a subtle level of emotional blackmail. I mean they dont say cut off your friends but anyone not on the "journey" should be held at a distance. Or friends being expected to refrain from drinking out of love. If they don't is it because they don't love you? Even if your issue is drug abuse not alcohol? I saw one woman being advised to divorce her husband of 10 years for not being on the journey. That seemed a bit strong to me. I did not think anyone was in a position to give advice on such a big issue.
Like I said before in my last post, I am sure you are not hanging around your friends that you snorted coke with every night, so why are you making a big deal out of someone suggesting that you take it easy with the people you intend on hanging with so you can ensure you stay clean. Stop reading so much into every suggestion.
I got sober in Connecticut, where 50% of my family is and my late wife's. Every party we went to 90% of the folks were drinking and at times smoking pot, all I needed to know is that they had my back. My family and friends knew I needed to get my life together and they supported that and if some of those folks did not support me, so be it, that is life.
Now since when does AA have to take such a hit because people who attend AA meeting give out bogus opinions. I am sure there are people in your life right know that also give folks bogus advice on life, I don't hear you railing against them here also.
Dude stop blaming AA, for what people who attend meetings are saying. READ THE BOOK.
I should add that many meetings go for far longer than an hour. Some people are encouraged to do more than give up an hour of their lives,
Well my friend I have been to AA meeting in practically every state in this country (including Alaska and Hawaii) and 12 other countries, every meeting was no longer then a hour and a half with a 15min break after the first 45 mins, this was in New England and California with the South and Mid West going for a hour with no break.
they are urged to give up loved ones and friends not on the same path.
Yes my brother, cousin and several friends gave up love ones who continued down a path of self destruction. Just like you would give up a girlfriend that was not working for you, a job that was treating you disrespectfully and so on.
This can ultimately mean that if you are not careful you can miss out on all the stuff that makes drug free life great! Thats not to say aa does not work for some but given the choice of spending my time and putting my trust in the hands of strangers, or enjoying the company of loved ones the latter will win for me every time.
Dude I am not sure where you have gotten all your information from but ya know what, it really does not matter. It sounds like you are doing great and that is what counts. I am happy for you, having a habit of cocaine is not fun.
There are no strangers in AA if you are in AA. It was not for you so please don't knock someone else for there experience of loving relationships. There are many relationships I have because I met someone at a meeting.
Why you think folks are missing out on life.....lol.
I would almost bet my life, that your life right now is no different then someone else that struggled with cocaine who is in AA/NA. Your not better then they are, that my friend is very condescending.
-
I'm tired of being tormented to hell, that's what I'm tired of.
You know what I am tired of, reading someone who claims to have been tormented to hell and have him come back and torment me, that's what I'm tired of.
Go away and take your tired hell with you.
Your old Froderik.
-
I'm tired of being tormented to hell, that's what I'm tired of.
You know what I am tired of, reading someone who claims to have been tormented to hell and have him come back and torment me, that's what I'm tired of.
Go away and take your tired hell with you.
Your old Froderik.
:rofl: :clown: :beat: :soapbox: ::fullofshit:: :rasta:
-
I'm tired of being tormented to hell, that's what I'm tired of.
You know what I am tired of, reading someone who claims to have been tormented to hell and have him come back and torment me, that's what I'm tired of.
Go away and take your tired hell with you.
Your old Froderik.
Froderik before this goes any further, I have no problem with you. I should not have posted my last comments.
All I am doing is having a harmless conversation with another person here.
Lets just stop now and call it a day.
Peace......
danny
-
danny I am not knocking anyone for being pro 12 steps. Having said that the fact that you have travelled the world extensively and been to aa meetings in every country kind of illustrates my concerns about 12 steps getting in the way of living a drug free life and enjoying all it has to offer. It is most unconventional outside of 12 step circles to decide that given the choice between seeing the sights of a country that you may never get to see again or going to a meeting that you go to every day at home the choice is a meeting.
I also find and i dont want to come off as an asshole here, your assumption that I have not read the book a little arrogant. This is exactly what I am saying. The book talks about doing what works and throwing out the rest but this did not reflect my experience at all. After a while i felt a lot of pressure to follow every step and when i didn't it was all about being in denial or being uncommitted. I appreciate that this was not neccesarily the case for everyone but it was for me. I also dont have any problem with people turning to religion if they feel it helps. But i dont want to be old that i need to in order to get better or i need to make the group my higher power. This was my experience.
I also dont know where you have travelled outside the us ( i am not american) but I think in most western countries 12 steps are considered by the general population the most likely way to get help. No doubt because they are free and open to everyone and this is certainly a good thing, but people need to know that there are plenty of other options out there and that failing to achieve sobriety or to overcome addiction through 12 steps is pretty common. It does not make you a failure and there are plenty of other options. People should also be aware of seedy 13th steppers when putting their faith in "the group" or picking a sponsor.
Im puzzled as to why you would say i am being condecending. I posted my own experience and philosophical issue with an organization. That is all. I have no issue with other people getting what they need from aa. But i found that when i stepped away from the meetings i realized what i was missing out on.
-
No worries, DB. I throw that Jim Jones quote in on here from time to time, bear with me. Alcohol is a son-of-a-bitch. I decided for myself a while ago to cut it way back. I just don't have what it takes to drink like I used to. I don't ascribe to AA, but I don't fault anyone who does as long as they don't try to push it over on anyone else.
-
Danny, you keep saying that AA isn't the people, its the book & other literature. Many of us tell you that we feel that the basic tenets of aa ARE the problem. The you proceed to tell us that we either haven't read it (which most of us with strong opinions about it have...extensively) - or you tell us that we just don't understand it or we're taking it the wrong way. I've said most of the exact same things to you as you've heard in this thread. It's like you just can't accept that AA can actually be damaging for some people. Like if we could only see, we'd "get it" & be 'happy, joyous & free', like you (although you seem to be one of the most angry,resentful & generally unhappy person I've run into on these boards in a long time). It reminds me of the evangelical preachers trying to convert the poor, unfortunate unbelievers. If we'd only see the light, right?
-
If you're such a hot house flower that you wind up "damaged" by A.A., you are not long for this world.
I hate reading here about the 'evil' A.A because these statements are used to invalidate the claims of victims of the teen torture chambers regarding how they were damaged and abused. People take the statements of individuals and extrapolate them onto the group they associate with. That's how people think, like it or not. And the conclusion people will draw, sometimes, because of the incessant A.A. hysteria is that survivors' claims of brainwashing and damage in Synanon prisons cannot be taken seriously. If A.A. is damaging, then pretty much everything is damaging, and, as such, Synanon style prisons cannot really fairly be held responsible for everyone's overly intense sensitivities.
And, heads up: Reformed appears to be "suck it" "queef," possibly the who, and on another thread is describing how "fornits posters" allegations of abuse in the "specialty schools" cannot be believed because "they" think A.A. is abuse.
The thing to remember is that all posters speak only for themselves and not any "group" regarding their beliefs about A.A., religion, Mothman, or any thing else. There is no "fornits posters" belief system.
-
A lot of us have been damaged by AA & you're dismissal & mocking of it says quite a bit. I guess that's that famous AA compassion. And you're right. We each have our opinions based on our experiences. Quite a few of us see the dangers in AA for many of the reasons "Reformed" so eloquently & politely stated. It really seems to bother so many AAers that not everyone sees it as the savior they do. As with religion, if you're secure in your beliefs about it then something some anonymous person posts on a message board shouldn't bother them as much as it apparently does.
I don't care if someone goes to AA & finds it helpful. What I DO have a problem with is how much its infiltrated the 'treatment' industry & how evangelistic its become.
-
"reformed12stepper" wrote":
danny I am not knocking anyone for being pro 12 steps. Having said that the fact that you have travelled the world extensively and been to aa meetings in every country kind of illustrates my concerns about 12 steps getting in the way of living a drug free life and enjoying all it has to offer. It is most unconventional outside of 12 step circles to decide that given the choice between seeing the sights of a country that you may never get to see again or going to a meeting that you go to every day at home the choice is a meeting.
I was in Austria last year, while in Vienna I stopped in at a AA meeting with fellow Austrian friend, after the meeting we went on to the Presidential House and Grounds, then to trip up into the Wine Region of Austria.
Now does this sound like I am not having fun or I am missing out on life.
My friend you have a very small view for such a big world.
I also find and i dont want to come off as an asshole here, your assumption that I have not read the book a little arrogant. This is exactly what I am saying. The book talks about doing what works and throwing out the rest but this did not reflect my experience at all. After a while i felt a lot of pressure to follow every step and when i didn't it was all about being in denial or being uncommitted. I appreciate that this was not neccesarily the case for everyone but it was for me. I also dont have any problem with people turning to religion if they feel it helps. But i dont want to be old that i need to in order to get better or i need to make the group my higher power. This was my experience.
Well am I sorry if I sound arrogant but once again, you have not studied the book. I am not stating that you have to agree with what the book says or whatever, just quote it accurately.
Of course the book did not reflect your story, your not a Alcoholic.....So let it go.
Why would you read a book about being African and then after your done, criticize the book and other Africans for being African.
I will say it but again, your quotes, "I don't want to be told, I don't want to be judged ect....If you had read the book you would not place the emphasis on people. You could make up your own mind.
I also dont know where you have travelled outside the us ( i am not american) but I think in most western countries 12 steps are considered by the general population the most likely way to get help. No doubt because they are free and open to everyone and this is certainly a good thing, but people need to know that there are plenty of other options out there and that failing to achieve sobriety or to overcome addiction through 12 steps is pretty common. It does not make you a failure and there are plenty of other options. People should also be aware of seedy 13th steppers when putting their faith in "the group" or picking a sponsor.
Just to name a few western countries I have attended groups England, Scotland, Ireland, Poland, Germany and Turkey. I have family that lives in Germany (Army), Turkey (sister's husband is Turkish they live in Linz, Austria).
The Democratic President Clinton, was a 13 stepper...lol (Oh and that is not in the Book). Filth, corruption is everywhere, especially in AA. Your talking about sex, drugs and rocka-rolla.
Im puzzled as to why you would say i am being condecending. I posted my own experience and philosophical issue with an organization. That is all. I have no issue with other people getting what they need from aa. But i found that when i stepped away from the meetings i realized what i was missing out on.
Sorry for that remark, concerning condescending. I think I misunderstood your overall tone. I do not want to alienate your opinions on this subject and make it seem I am not open to them. I am.
I actually agree that the folks in AA meetings can be a bit oppressive with their message, this is why I gently guide alcoholics in need to study the book, go to small meeting where they are focused on getting better.
I don't want a active Alcoholic who drinks alcoholically to suffer one more day, if I can help. I am not God or whoever, I do not believe I can save people, never have. I do believe I can help along with family and friends.
-
No worries, DB. I throw that Jim Jones quote in on here from time to time, bear with me. Alcohol is a son-of-a-bitch. I decided for myself a while ago to cut it way back. I just don't have what it takes to drink like I used to. I don't ascribe to AA, but I don't fault anyone who does as long as they don't try to push it over on anyone else.
Thanks Froderik, always appreciated your posts.
I don't actually ascribe to all of what AA (people) have turned into either. They put the "ill" in Illness.
I will help a suffering Alcoholic if I can, get him a bottle to tie him over, detox, 30 day rehab....whatever. I'll take him to a meeting that studies the book. I am talking about full blown Alcoholics, most folks know what I mean.
I have never pushed this on anyone nor would I. I debate the opinions expressed here yet I think that is misunderstood as pushing AA's agenda, which I am not. Just trying to separate the party side to AA (people) with the serious side the (literature). To many folks in AA have detrimental opinions they want to shout out.
Anyway......have a great weekend or what's left.
-
If you're such a hot house flower that you wind up "damaged" by A.A., you are not long for this world.
I hate reading here about the 'evil' A.A because these statements are used to invalidate the claims of victims of the teen torture chambers regarding how they were damaged and abused. People take the statements of individuals and extrapolate them onto the group they associate with. That's how people think, like it or not. And the conclusion people will draw, sometimes, because of the incessant A.A. hysteria is that survivors' claims of brainwashing and damage in Synanon prisons cannot be taken seriously. If A.A. is damaging, then pretty much everything is damaging, and, as such, Synanon style prisons cannot really fairly be held responsible for everyone's overly intense sensitivities.
And, heads up: Reformed appears to be "suck it" and "queef," who on another thread is reporting "fornits posters" allegations of abuse in the "specialty schools" cannot be beleived because "they" think A.A. is abuse.
The thing to remember is that all posters speak only for themselves and not any "group" regarding their beliefs about A.A., religion, Mothman, or any thing else. There is no "fornits posters" belief system.
I get what you are arguing here. I have read some pretty disturbing things about these youth rehabs and boarding schools and I would not say that AA is punitive and spiteful like that. Nor does it keep anyone against their will physically. I also never claimed that AA "damaged" me. Just that I disagree with a lot of the stuff that goes on and people should not feel like failures for not being successful at it. Right now this is a very common atitude and it is one 12 steps promotes. People should be made aware of all the options.
But for arguments sake what if I did say that my chapter of AA was hurtful enough to be permanently "damaging". What if I was a person who was a bit thin skinned or vulnerable emotionally? As a person in favour of an organization that is supposed to be compassionate and welcoming do you honestly think it makes your organization look good to call me a "hothouse flower"? Or do you think it might make you come across as a bit aggressive and defensive with no logical reason for being so?
I dont really know who suck i is. I assume some other poster. Im puzzled there.
-
A lot of us have been damaged by AA & you're dismissal & mocking of it says quite a bit. I guess that's that famous AA compassion. And you're right. We each have our opinions based on our experiences. Quite a few of us see the dangers in AA for many of the reasons "Reformed" so eloquently & politely stated. It really seems to bother so many AAers that not everyone sees it as the savior they do. As with religion, if you're secure in your beliefs about it then something some anonymous person posts on a message board shouldn't bother them as much as it apparently does.
I don't care if someone goes to AA & finds it helpful. What I DO have a problem with is how much its infiltrated the 'treatment' industry & how evangelistic its become.
Anne how are you, hope you are having a great weekend.
Now wasn't that a nice greeting, before I start to rebut your post.
Hey Anne you are entitled to your "etched in stone, rubber stamp comments".
You have earned them, especially coming from Straight, Inc.
Just try if you can to stop personally attacking folks who do not agree with you.
I am sitting on Long Island with about 50 folks (family and friends) and they don't find me unhappy, at all.
Well my cat does, I forgot to feed her last night.
Anne behave and be nice for once. You don't have to be rude every time you post to me.
Last note,
I don't care if someone goes to AA & finds it helpful. What I DO have a problem with is how much its infiltrated the 'treatment' industry & how evangelistic its become.
This was 30 years ago, Anne. There are very few long term treatment centers involved with the 12 steps. At least what I have been able to ascertain.
-
A lot of us have been damaged by AA & you're dismissal & mocking of it says quite a bit. I guess that's that famous AA compassion. And you're right. We each have our opinions based on our experiences. Quite a few of us see the dangers in AA for many of the reasons "Reformed" so eloquently & politely stated. It really seems to bother so many AAers that not everyone sees it as the savior they do. As with religion, if you're secure in your beliefs about it then something some anonymous person posts on a message board shouldn't bother them as much as it apparently does.
I don't care if someone goes to AA & finds it helpful. What I DO have a problem with is how much its infiltrated the 'treatment' industry & how evangelistic its become.
-
why is a legitimate discussion of the flaws of an organization tin foil hat territory? What exactly have I said that makes me a troll?
-
Here is another term widely used, for any change to happen one must feel pain. That is a very accurate statement.
I've found the opposite to be true. For any change for the better to happen, one must feel hopeful, inspired. Most of all, it helps more than anything to have the love and support of people who actually know you well and love you anyway.
-
Here is another term widely used, for any change to happen one must feel pain. That is a very accurate statement.
I've found the opposite to be true. For any change for the better to happen, one must feel hopeful, inspired. Most of all, it helps more than anything to have the love and support of people who actually know you well and love you anyway.
Ya well I would bet my life that any major changes in your life that you have made started with pain, ending one relationship and starting another, for one example. Getting fired from your last job and starting another knowing your track record sucks and so on.
Thanks for your unrealistic philosophical BS as usual, arm chair quaterbacking fornits must be making ya some money these days.
Relax sweetie w/Anne, this conversation is harmless.
-
If you're such a hot house flower that you wind up "damaged" by A.A., you are not long for this world.
I hate reading here about the 'evil' A.A because these statements are used to invalidate the claims of victims of the teen torture chambers regarding how they were damaged and abused. People take the statements of individuals and extrapolate them onto the group they associate with. That's how people think, like it or not. And the conclusion people will draw, sometimes, because of the incessant A.A. hysteria is that survivors' claims of brainwashing and damage in Synanon prisons cannot be taken seriously. If A.A. is damaging, then pretty much everything is damaging, and, as such, Synanon style prisons cannot really fairly be held responsible for everyone's overly intense sensitivities.
And, heads up: Reformed appears to be "suck it" and "queef," who on another thread is reporting "fornits posters" allegations of abuse in the "specialty schools" cannot be beleived because "they" think A.A. is abuse.
The thing to remember is that all posters speak only for themselves and not any "group" regarding their beliefs about A.A., religion, Mothman, or any thing else. There is no "fornits posters" belief system.
I get what you are arguing here. I have read some pretty disturbing things about these youth rehabs and boarding schools and I would not say that AA is punitive and spiteful like that. Nor does it keep anyone against their will physically. I also never claimed that AA "damaged" me. Just that I disagree with a lot of the stuff that goes on and people should not feel like failures for not being successful at it. Right now this is a very common atitude and it is one 12 steps promotes. People should be made aware of all the options.
But for arguments sake what if I did say that my chapter of AA was hurtful enough to be permanently "damaging". What if I was a person who was a bit thin skinned or vulnerable emotionally? As a person in favour of an organization that is supposed to be compassionate and welcoming do you honestly think it makes your organization look good to call me a "hothouse flower"? Or do you think it might make you come across as a bit aggressive and defensive with no logical reason for being so?
I dont really know who suck i is. I assume some other poster. Im puzzled there.
Reformed.
It has nothing to do with thinned skinned, vulnerable emotionally, AA being accommodating to your whims, common attitudes that AA promotes ( BTW where in gods name do you get this) are you that dependent on people that you can not think for yourself. AA is a self help program with the ability to offer support if wanted. You don't actually need anyone to help you to gain some answers in AA, the literature will do this well.
If you want to find the sickest ones in AA to listen to then so be it. Everything you have mentioned anyone with common sense could figure out, as you did, as I did.
(I do not mean this literally, it is just for argument sake)
I think being a member of AA I have the almighty right to call you a asshole if I feel compelled to, What the hell gives you the right to make up all this shit about AA come here and puke it out, you got all your info from the sickest fuckes you could find, this doesn't say alot about you.
You keep saying people should be made aware of other options, does AA have a cloaking device to shut out all other options through satellite.....lol. There are plenty of other options, just as I said when I came around AA it was not the first choice mentioned to me.
-
why is a legitimate discussion of the flaws of an organization tin foil hat territory? What exactly have I said that makes me a troll?
You are neither, actually you are one of the best posters on this topic in a while.
-
why is a legitimate discussion of the flaws of an organization tin foil hat territory?
It's not.
What exactly have I said that makes me a troll?
Not a thing - Welcome to fornits ;)
And Ginger - what you said - to right!
-
"Anne Bonney" wrote:
A lot of us have been damaged by AA & you're dismissal & mocking of it says quite a bit. I guess that's that famous AA compassion.
No Anne you were damaged by a treatment facility called Straight INc, that used a twisted concept of the 12 steps as it's behavioral method. You left Straight damaged, tried attending AA on the outside, found that you were not a Alcoholic and made a decision to not attend. Found fornits several years later where you heard folks bashing AA and jumped on the band wagon.
How am I doing so far.....
And you're right. We each have our opinions based on our experiences.
That is exactly right, Anne. Meditate on this for a while.
Quite a few of us see the dangers in AA for many of the reasons "Reformed" so eloquently & politely stated.
Yes Anne you are right there are a few people here that agree with your total dramatic version of AA. Though I do not believe reform is one, so relax on your ass kissing campaign.
His post was polite as far as eloquent I would not think so and I am sure he would say the same.
It really seems to bother so many AAers that not everyone sees it as the savior they do.
No Anne only you and would you please back up this comment with some hard facts, please.
No never mind, I'll just go with your warped mind, for statistics.
As with religion, if you're secure in your beliefs about it then something some anonymous person posts on a message board shouldn't bother them as much as it apparently does.
Jeesh Anne if you were so secure in your belief that AA is damaging, why do you feel compelled to call people names and try to disrespect people who post with positive comments.
I don't care if someone goes to AA & finds it helpful. What I DO have a problem with is how much its infiltrated the 'treatment' industry & how evangelistic its become.
Anne you are a little late for this campaign, it was 30 years ago, girl. Oh btw AA is 75 years old as of a couple of days ago. So we have been doing it a while.
-
why is a legitimate discussion of the flaws of an organization tin foil hat territory?
It's not.
What exactly have I said that makes me a troll?
Not a thing - Welcome to fornits ;)
And Ginger - what you said - to right!
Buzz it has already been said, thanks for repeating it. Reformer does not need a Mom, he is doing just fine. He has already been welcomed to fornits. Jeesh I did not know you were the official welcoming staffer......lol.
What Ginger said is absolutely wrong in the context of my conversation and you know that. So at least try and act like you can think for yourself, instead of a automaton she (Ginger) operates from her couch.
-
Dan Dear, I'll welcome whom I like when I like how ever often I like for what ever reason it pleases me to do so.
I'll also agree with Ginger when ever I happen to agree with Ginger. Most anyone whose been around awhile can tell you, this is by no means an automatic thing. So relax dude - your not fornits offical anything either.
-
Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
-
If you're such a hot house flower that you wind up "damaged" by A.A., you are not long for this world.
Ok, again. If you criticize AA then there must be something wrong with you, right?
7) Doctrine over Person
If one questions the beliefs of the group or the leaders of the group, one is made to
feel that there is something inherently wrong with them to even question -- it is always
"turned around" on them and the questioner/criticizer is questioned rather than the
questions answered directly.
http://www.cultrecover.com/pdfs/lifton8criteria.pdf (http://www.cultrecover.com/pdfs/lifton8criteria.pdf)
The people most invited to meetings are those who feel they're having some trouble. Not necessarily weak people. Just people in a weakened state of mind; people at an emotional low.
Now, ask yourself why you would be so hostile to people who claim to have been injured?
I hate reading here about the 'evil' A.A because these statements are used to invalidate the claims of victims of the teen torture chambers regarding how they were damaged and abused.
People take the statements of individuals and extrapolate them onto the group they associate with. That's how people think, like it or not. And the conclusion people will draw, sometimes, because of the incessant A.A. hysteria is that survivors' claims of brainwashing and damage in Synanon prisons cannot be taken seriously. If A.A. is damaging, then pretty much everything is damaging, and, as such, Synanon style prisons cannot really fairly be held responsible for everyone's overly intense sensitivities.
This same basic argument has been well hashed over in drug policy reform circles. There have been many rifts and diversions; hemp only vs. marijuana legalization; medical vs general marijuana legalization; marijuana vs other drugs; legalization vs decrim. And, by way of hard core segue, how about Straight primarily) program vets taking a hard line against any drug policy reform discussion whatsoever, thereby offending the living hell out of Arold Trebach who had been one of our mightiest heros for damned near 20 years before any of us ever even heard his name. If that wasn't the silliest thing I've seen in recent years I'd be hard pressed to tell you what was.
What always happens is that people who are interested in an open and intellectually honest discussion continue to do so and people who want to take a on narrower focus and view do that. Then the opposition First they ignores you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win. (Mahatma Gandhi, paraphrased)
And, heads up: Reformed appears to be "suck it" "queef," possibly the who, and on another thread is describing how "fornits posters" allegations of abuse in the "specialty schools" cannot be believed because "they" think A.A. is abuse.
Wonderful! They've quit ignoring us. They quit laughing at drug policy reformers not too long ago and now MMJ there's some form of MJ law reform in every state. We're on our way!
The thing to remember is that all posters speak only for themselves and not any "group" regarding their beliefs about A.A., religion, Mothman, or any thing else. There is no "fornits posters" belief system.
Precisely! This is a discussion, not a legislative or litigative session. Thanks for understanding that.
-
Dan Dear, I'll welcome whom I like when I like how ever often I like for what ever reason it pleases me to do so.
I'll also agree with Ginger when ever I happen to agree with Ginger. Most anyone whose been around awhile can tell you, this is by no means an automatic thing. So relax dude - your not fornits offical anything either.
Oh but you are so wrong, I am official and it is about time you get that through your head.
I am officially telling you, "that you are a walking, talking, brainwashed, scrubbed clean automaton, that Ginger turns on whenever she chooses.
I'll stop I am being horrible, I actually find you to be one of the posters I enjoy reading.
I am addicted to instigating, I can see that now. I love love to fool around.
Now Ginger on the other hand is just into arguing, if I say it is black she will say it is white.
-
Dan Dear, I'll welcome whom I like when I like how ever often I like for what ever reason it pleases me to do so.
I'll also agree with Ginger when ever I happen to agree with Ginger. Most anyone whose been around awhile can tell you, this is by no means an automatic thing. So relax dude - your not fornits offical anything either.
Oh but you are so wrong, I am official and it is about time you get that through your head.
I am officially telling you, "that you are a walking, talking, brainwashed, scrubbed clean automaton, that Ginger turns on whenever she chooses.
I'll stop I am being horrible, I actually find you to be one of the posters I enjoy reading.
I am addicted to instigating, I can see that now. I love love to fool around.
Now Ginger on the other hand is just into arguing, if I say it is black she will say it is white.
Holy Christ on a BROKEN crutch, man! :roflmao: Can you really look back over this thread and objectively accuse anyone in it but yourself of personal attacks? Really?? The only thing under attack is an idea; an argument. Fair game, really the whole point of discussion.
-
Dan Dear, I'll welcome whom I like when I like how ever often I like for what ever reason it pleases me to do so.
I'll also agree with Ginger when ever I happen to agree with Ginger. Most anyone whose been around awhile can tell you, this is by no means an automatic thing. So relax dude - your not fornits offical anything either.
Oh but you are so wrong, I am official and it is about time you get that through your head.
I am officially telling you, "that you are a walking, talking, brainwashed, scrubbed clean automaton, that Ginger turns on whenever she chooses.
I'll stop I am being horrible, I actually find you to be one of the posters I enjoy reading.
I am addicted to instigating, I can see that now. I love love to fool around.
Now Ginger on the other hand is just into arguing, if I say it is black she will say it is white.
Holy Christ on a BROKEN crutch, man! :roflmao: Can you really look back over this thread and objectively accuse anyone in it but yourself of personal attacks? Really?? The only thing under attack is an idea; an argument. Fair game, really the whole point of discussion.
I think he gets like this when Liza is unavailable. She appears to exert a steadying hand. :D
-
I think he gets like this when Liza is unavailable. She appears to exert a steadying hand. :D
Danny's Nanny?
-
I think he gets like this when Liza is unavailable. She appears to exert a steadying hand. :D
Danny's Nanny?
Allegedly his Significant Other. Who edits his posts (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=30044&p=358846#p358846):
OH yes Ursus, "I do scale back Danny's comments some of them are unnecessary." BTW my name is Liza. I for one do enjoy your posting, thank you.
-
Oh my, I wonder what their bedroom roleplay looks like.
-
If you're such a hot house flower that you wind up "damaged" by A.A., you are not long for this world.
Ok, again. If you criticize AA then there must be something wrong with you, right?
I do not believe this poster inferred this or said this. Ginger this is your "staple" response to every AA poster here, going back years.
I have tried more then most to understand why Anne, yourself and others have this outdated idea of AA. As I have said to Anne, Ginger you carry your baggage and try to pass this off with a intellectual argument from Dr. Robert J. Lifton.
Well I am sure if Dr. Lifton included your bias in his essay then we would get a objective opinion.
7) Doctrine over Person
If one questions the beliefs of the group or the leaders of the group, one is made to
feel that there is something inherently wrong with them to even question -- it is always
"turned around" on them and the questioner/criticizer is questioned rather than the
questions answered directly.
http://www.cultrecover.com/pdfs/lifton8criteria.pdf (http://www.cultrecover.com/pdfs/lifton8criteria.pdf)
Nice try Ginger, why are you acting like you are in denial of what you and your site does to folks who don't agree with you. You post here trying to be genuine in your rebuttal but really you are not because you can't get past your anger at AA. Your stuck Ginger and have been for years.
The people most invited to meetings are those who feel they're having some trouble. Not necessarily weak people. Just people in a weakened state of mind; people at an emotional low.
Invited to meetings, no one is invited. This is what the problem is here is all this misrepresentation of AA and what AA is about. You clearly have no idea, just because some folks in your family are affiliated with AA, does not mean you can ride shot-gun and understand the complexities. Ginger you really have no idea, I am beginning to be believe that you are one lazy individual who one has never worked on herself (so easy to blame others) and has yet to identify your own bio.
Now, ask yourself why you would be so hostile to people who claim to have been injured?
:clown: :roflmao: Coming from you and your cohorts, you really can't be in are world. Hostile towards folks who are damaged. When was the last time you said this to Pile after he waylaid a mother with his vulgarity.
Stay on your couch Ginger life will come back around.
I hate reading here about the 'evil' A.A because these statements are used to invalidate the claims of victims of the teen torture chambers regarding how they were damaged and abused.
People take the statements of individuals and extrapolate them onto the group they associate with. That's how people think, like it or not. And the conclusion people will draw, sometimes, because of the incessant A.A. hysteria is that survivors' claims of brainwashing and damage in Synanon prisons cannot be taken seriously. If A.A. is damaging, then pretty much everything is damaging, and, as such, Synanon style prisons cannot really fairly be held responsible for everyone's overly intense sensitivities.
This same basic argument has been well hashed over in drug policy reform circles. There have been many rifts and diversions; hemp only vs. marijuana legalization; medical vs general marijuana legalization; marijuana vs other drugs; legalization vs decrim. And, by way of hard core segue, how about Straight primarily) program vets taking a hard line against any drug policy reform discussion whatsoever, thereby offending the living hell out of Arold Trebach who had been one of our mightiest heros for damned near 20 years before any of us ever even heard his name. If that wasn't the silliest thing I've seen in recent years I'd be hard pressed to tell you what was.
What always happens is that people who are interested in an open and intellectually honest discussion continue to do so and people who want to take a on narrower focus and view do that. Then the opposition First they ignores you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win. (Mahatma Gandhi, paraphrased)
Is this the truth.....yep!!!
And, heads up: Reformed appears to be "suck it" "queef," possibly the who, and on another thread is describing how "fornits posters" allegations of abuse in the "specialty schools" cannot be believed because "they" think A.A. is abuse.
Wonderful! They've quit ignoring us. They quit laughing at drug policy reformers not too long ago and now MMJ there's some form of MJ law reform in every state. We're on our way!
The thing to remember is that all posters speak only for themselves and not any "group" regarding their beliefs about A.A., religion, Mothman, or any thing else. There is no "fornits posters" belief system.
Bullshit, sorry but keep dreaming. This stopped being true many years ago, just keep reading.
Precisely! This is a discussion, not a legislative or litigative session. Thanks for understanding that.
Ginger, please save it for some other fly by night poster.
-
Ginger wrote
Holy Christ on a BROKEN crutch, man! :roflmao: Can you really look back over this thread and objectively accuse anyone in it but yourself of personal attacks? Really?? The only thing under attack is an idea; an argument. Fair game, really the whole point of discussion.
Jeesh did you miss Anne's post earlier, of course you did. Just could not see it could ya, go back several posts, come on you can do it.....read.
Fuck sake it is your site, why do I have to hold your hand. Pull your britches up and act like a big girl. Your sniveling again......lol.
-
I have a question for people who attended alcoholic anonymous meetings. Do licensed chemical dependency counselors oversee these meetings?
Not where i am from. But in fairness i have heard that some 12 step based treatment centres have more professional staff
-
"Anne Bonney" wrote:
A lot of us have been damaged by AA & you're dismissal & mocking of it says quite a bit. I guess that's that famous AA compassion.
No Anne you were damaged by a treatment facility called Straight INc, that used a twisted concept of the 12 steps as it's behavioral method. You left Straight damaged, tried attending AA on the outside, found that you were not a Alcoholic and made a decision to not attend. Found fornits several years later where you heard folks bashing AA and jumped on the band wagon.
How am I doing so far.....
Not well. You make up reasons for my disdain for AA because it threatens your viewpoint.
Yes Anne you are right there are a few people here that agree with your total dramatic version of AA.
And there are a few people here that think AA is the be-all, end-all....the salvation, such as yourself.
It really seems to bother so many AAers that not everyone sees it as the savior they do.
No Anne only you and would you please back up this comment with some hard facts, please.
No never mind, I'll just go with your warped mind, for statistics.
You're a perfect example Danny. You absolutely cannot tolerate any criticism of AA at all. You pretty much go off the deep end whenever someone points out the faults of AA.
As with religion, if you're secure in your beliefs about it then something some anonymous person posts on a message board shouldn't bother them as much as it apparently does.
Jeesh Anne if you were so secure in your belief that AA is damaging, why do you feel compelled to call people names and try to disrespect people who post with positive comments.
I don';t call people names because they believe in AA.....I call YOU names because you're rude and treat people who disagree with you as if you're still 'on staff'.
I don't care if someone goes to AA & finds it helpful. What I DO have a problem with is how much its infiltrated the 'treatment' industry & how evangelistic its become.
Anne you are a little late for this campaign, it was 30 years ago, girl. Oh btw AA is 75 years old as of a couple of days ago. So we have been doing it a while.
Uh huh.....that's pretty much my point. They've infiltrated the entire treatment industry, despite their own findings of a "success" rate of 5%.
-
I have a question for people who attended alcoholic anonymous meetings. Do licensed chemical dependency counselors oversee these meetings?
Not where i am from. But in fairness i have heard that some 12 step based treatment centres have more professional staff
Joel are you really this naive, I mean this is what I have to deal with here. Joel just a few months ago you were such the scholar on AA. You knew about everything to do with AA. You argued, posted surveys, studies and quotes from the OJ papers.
The truth will always prevail. :roflmao:
-
Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
-
Ok, again. If you criticize AA then there must be something wrong with you, right?
Exactly!!!! He cannot handle anyone daring to say anything disparaging about his beloved program.
I have tried more then most to understand why Anne, yourself and others have this outdated idea of AA.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Bull-fucking-shit!!!!!!
No you haven't. You just believe that we're wrong about AA and you're bound and determined to try and help us "see the light". (Proselytizing to an evangelical extreme)
As I have said to Anne, Ginger you carry your baggage and try to pass this off with a intellectual argument from Dr. Robert J. Lifton.
What?? Lifton was talking about thought reform, not specifically AA.....it just happens that AA has a lot of the characteristics of cult-like entities.
Well I am sure if Dr. Lifton included your bias in his essay then we would get a objective opinion
What?
.
7) Doctrine over Person
If one questions the beliefs of the group or the leaders of the group, one is made to
feel that there is something inherently wrong with them to even question -- it is always
"turned around" on them and the questioner/criticizer is questioned rather than the
questions answered directly.
http://www.cultrecover.com/pdfs/lifton8criteria.pdf (http://www.cultrecover.com/pdfs/lifton8criteria.pdf)
Nice try Ginger, why are you acting like you are in denial of what you and your site does to folks who don't agree with you.
There's that "D" word again. The fact is, Danny, that many of the people who frequent Fornits HAVE been damaged by either programs, AA or both. I know that threatens your entire belief system, but it's true.
You post here trying to be genuine in your rebuttal but really you are not because you can't get past your anger at AA.
Not speaking for Ginger, but there's a difference between still being angry and trying to educate people regarding things about AA that they won't tell you.
Your stuck Ginger and have been for years.
Projection again! (And it's the contraction," you're"....as in" you are") :deal:
Invited to meetings, no one is invited.
What??? Are you serious??? I was invited to plenty of meetings.
This is what the problem is here is all this misrepresentation of AA and what AA is about. You clearly have no idea, just because some folks in your family are affiliated with AA, does not mean you can ride shot-gun and understand the complexities.
Well, there's her own experience combined with a dozen or so years of research.
Ginger you really have no idea, I am beginning to be believe that you are one lazy individual who one has never worked on herself (so easy to blame others)
Again.....if someone complains about AA then there must be something wrong with them, because AA is perfect in every way!! ::)
and has yet to identify your own bio.
Why do you keep demanding to know everyone's "bio" while refusing to disclose yours? Did you tie a girl to a van and drag her around as punishment while working at Elan?
The thing to remember is that all posters speak only for themselves and not any "group" regarding their beliefs about A.A., religion, Mothman, or any thing else. There is no "fornits posters" belief system.
This stopped being true many years ago, just keep reading.
How would you know? You've only been here for, what, a year or less?
-
Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
-
"Anne Bonney" wrote:
A lot of us have been damaged by AA & you're dismissal & mocking of it says quite a bit. I guess that's that famous AA compassion.
No Anne you were damaged by a treatment facility called Straight INc, that used a twisted concept of the 12 steps as it's behavioral method. You left Straight damaged, tried attending AA on the outside, found that you were not a Alcoholic and made a decision to not attend. Found fornits several years later where you heard folks bashing AA and jumped on the band wagon.
How am I doing so far.....
Not well. You make up reasons for my disdain for AA because it threatens your viewpoint.
Anne I quoted everything I said from your posts. Don't you remember anything you say. Oh, I know when I say it back to you, it does not sound familar. Ya I get it.
[/color]
Yes Anne you are right there are a few people here that agree with your total dramatic version of AA.
And there are a few people here that think AA is the be-all, end-all....the salvation, such as yourself.
No Anne just you, Anne this is all you baby, all your perceptions from your damaged emotions. I feel for ya.
You are right about one thing, if AA was like they way you describe it I would not have had anything to do with it.
[/color]
It really seems to bother so many AAers that not everyone sees it as the savior they do.
No Anne only you and would you please back up this comment with some hard facts, please.
No never mind, I'll just go with your warped mind, for statistics.
You're a perfect example Danny. You absolutely cannot tolerate any criticism of AA at all. You pretty much go off the deep end whenever someone points out the faults of AA.
Anne are you looking in a mirror right now, if not, reach inside your purse pull one out and look at yourself. Yes the person looking back is who you are talking about, stop projecting your crap on me.
[/color]
As with religion, if you're secure in your beliefs about it then something some anonymous person posts on a message board shouldn't bother them as much as it apparently does.
Jeesh Anne if you were so secure in your belief that AA is damaging, why do you feel compelled to call people names and try to disrespect people who post with positive comments.
I don't call people names because they believe in AA.....I call YOU names because you're rude and treat people who disagree with you as if you're still 'on staff'.
Anne we have covered this before, if you want to call me names and fuck with me, then my rebuttal with be with as much force that I can muster, It will feel like you just got ran over.
Oh and btw I am not/was not staff and as DJ pointed out (Not meant to be offensive DJ, just like your example)I was never a professional employee. Thanks DJ, I believe that had been my point all along.
So please let Sharon and Felice handle that department, Anne.
[/color]
I don't care if someone goes to AA & finds it helpful. What I DO have a problem with is how much its infiltrated the 'treatment' industry & how evangelistic its become.
Anne you are a little late for this campaign, it was 30 years ago, girl. Oh btw AA is 75 years old as of a couple of days ago. So we have been doing it a while.
Uh huh.....that's pretty much my point. They've infiltrated the entire treatment industry, despite their own findings of a "success" rate of 5%.
Bla, Bla, Bla....AA only has 5% success rate, who gives a shit, I don't. I was reading this with about 10 other folks who are affiliated with AA and we just laugh. Nobody, I mean nobody really cares about the shit that you do.
Surveys, success rates, ect.....AA is one Alcoholic helping another with the 12 steps. That's it, all this other bullshit is for you folks to haggle about.
I came in about 22 years ago, I sat for 3 days with 15 other members I have know for all of that time. They have went to college, excelled in their jobs, had children, bought houses, started businesses ect.......
Anne you are a sad bitter women when it comes to AA, who has not figured out how to shun her resentments so they leak out all over this site. Your in good company, your feeling are validated and you have support. Continue using your intellect as a crutch for your other short comings, once again your in good company.
I am surprised you have not quoted the OJ papers are another Doctor, as your buddy Ginger loves to do. Better to quote outside/detached sources then to actually share your experiences. To vulnerable I guess.
Good luck....
-
Danny,
Listen here! When Anne Bonney says "jump" you will respond "how high?' Do you understand Mr. Bennison? :roflmao:
Joel please, are you looking to get your ass handed to you again like they did at Eckels. When are you finally going to get honest about how you got your ass jacked up at that facility in Rhode Island.
As I heard the story, Mr.Tuff guy here tried to pull his shit there and had his ass handed to him. This I believe was part of the reason you had to go. Mr. I understand from working at these places how it works.
So keep correcting my English there dude and if you have any free time, please explain the above. Oh and do you know a former Staff by the name of Bob, Joel. He sure knows alot about you.
Just say'in, Joel.
-
Ok, again. If you criticize AA then there must be something wrong with you, right?
Exactly!!!! He cannot handle anyone daring to say anything disparaging about his beloved program.
Are you so sure of that, Anne. Not many posters here would agree with you.
[/color]
I have tried more then most to understand why Anne, yourself and others have this outdated idea of AA.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Bull-fucking-shit!!!!!!
No you haven't. You just believe that we're wrong about AA and you're bound and determined to try and help us "see the light". (Proselytizing to an evangelical extreme)
Are you so sure of that, Anne. Not many posters here would agree with you.
[/color]
As I have said to Anne, Ginger you carry your baggage and try to pass this off with a intellectual argument from Dr. Robert J. Lifton.
What?? Lifton was talking about thought reform, not specifically AA.....it just happens that AA has a lot of the characteristics of cult-like entities.
Are you so sure of that, Anne. Not many posters here would agree with you.
[/color]
Well I am sure if Dr. Lifton included your bias in his essay then we would get a objective opinion
What?
Exactly, haven't a clue.
[/color]
.
7) Doctrine over Person
If one questions the beliefs of the group or the leaders of the group, one is made to
feel that there is something inherently wrong with them to even question -- it is always
"turned around" on them and the questioner/criticizer is questioned rather than the
questions answered directly.
http://www.cultrecover.com/pdfs/lifton8criteria.pdf (http://www.cultrecover.com/pdfs/lifton8criteria.pdf)
Nice try Ginger, why are you acting like you are in denial of what you and your site does to folks who don't agree with you.
There's that "D" word again. The fact is, Danny, that many of the people who frequent Fornits HAVE been damaged by either programs, AA or both. I know that threatens your entire belief system, but it's true.
Are you so sure of that, Anne. Not many posters here would agree with you.
[/color]
You post here trying to be genuine in your rebuttal but really you are not because you can't get past your anger at AA.
Not speaking for Ginger, but there's a difference between still being angry and trying to educate people regarding things about AA that they won't tell you.
Well you are speaking for Ginger, the only time your not is when your mouth is on her ass.
Your stuck Ginger and have been for years.
Projection again! (And it's the contraction," you're"....as in" you are") :deal:
Are you so sure of that, Anne. Not many posters here would agree with you.
[/color]
Invited to meetings, no one is invited.
What??? Are you serious??? I was invited to plenty of meetings.
Your a idiot, this does not even deserve anymore elaboration.
This is what the problem is here is all this misrepresentation of AA and what AA is about. You clearly have no idea, just because some folks in your family are affiliated with AA, does not mean you can ride shot-gun and understand the complexities.
Well, there's her own experience combined with a dozen or so years of research.
Who in the fuck are you kidding....you have now entered into the stupid zone.
First off she has no personal experience she is riding her brothers coattails on this one and there is no research to research, why is it that you can be such a ditz.
Anne dust yourself off, go get a shot and grab a joint and please get the fuck out of this conversation.
[/color]
Ginger you really have no idea, I am beginning to be believe that you are one lazy individual who one has never worked on herself (so easy to blame others)
Again.....if someone complains about AA then there must be something wrong with them, because AA is perfect in every way!! ::)
Are you so sure of that, Anne. Not many posters here would agree with you.
[/color]
and has yet to identify your own bio.
Why do you keep demanding to know everyone's "bio" while refusing to disclose yours? Did you tie a girl to a van and drag her around as punishment while working at Elan?
I don't know, were you actually auditioning your ass and propositioning guys here on fornits, to get laid or are you just that disrespectful to your husband on purpose.
I think you are what you always have been a girl who loves to sell it.
Just say'in
.[/color]
The thing to remember is that all posters speak only for themselves and not any "group" regarding their beliefs about A.A., religion, Mothman, or any thing else. There is no "fornits posters" belief system.
This stopped being true many years ago, just keep reading.
How would you know? You've only been here for, what, a year or less?
Are you so sure of that, Anne. Not many posters here would agree with you.
Been around for a while, Annie girl.
[/color]
Last note:
Hey Anne, get off your knees please, Ginger can polish her own ass.
This post was directed at her and is between her and I.
We have our own conversation, dumbass.
-
Danny,
Listen here! When Anne Bonney says "jump" you will respond "how high?' Do you understand Mr. Bennison? :roflmao:
Joel please, are you looking to get your ass handed to you again like they did at Eckels. When are you finally going to get honest about how you got your ass jacked up at that facility in Rhode Island.
As I heard the story, Mr.Tuff guy here tried to pull his shit there and had his ass handed to him. This I believe was part of the reason you had to go. Mr. I understand from working at these places how it works.
So keep correcting my English there dude and if you have any free time, please explain the above. Oh and do you know a former Staff by the name of Bob, Joel. He sure knows alot about you.
Just say'in, Joel.
Danny, every program has someone working there by the name of "Bob." You should think of a less frequently used name. Like... "John."
-
Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
-
Hey Anne, get off your knees please, Ginger can polish her own ass.
This post was directed at her and is between her and I.
We have our own conversation, dumbass.
Oh, fuck you. You jump in on my conversations with other people all the time.
-
No Anne just you, Anne this is all you baby, all your perceptions from your damaged emotions. I feel for ya.
Yeah, that's why you're arguing with quite a few of us here about AA.....because I'm the only one who feels that it's a sham. Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiggggghhhhht.
It really seems to bother so many AAers that not everyone sees it as the savior they do.
No Anne only you and would you please back up this comment with some hard facts, please.
No never mind, I'll just go with your warped mind, for statistics.
The fact that you get so upset when we criticize AA is the "back up". Do YOU not remember what you've said?
Anne are you looking in a mirror right now, if not, reach inside your purse pull one out and look at yourself. Yes the person looking back is who you are talking about, stop projecting your crap on me.
You're a perfect example Danny. You absolutely cannot tolerate any criticism of AA at all. You pretty much go off the deep end whenever someone points out the faults of AA.
As with religion, if you're secure in your beliefs about it then something some anonymous person posts on a message board shouldn't bother them as much as it apparently does.
Jeesh Anne if you were so secure in your belief that AA is damaging, why do you feel compelled to call people names and try to disrespect people who post with positive comments.
You're pretty much the only one I call names and that's because you're just an asshole...not because you think AA is some kind of savior of the people.
Anne we have covered this before, if you want to call me names and fuck with me, then my rebuttal with be with as much force that I can muster, It will feel like you just got ran over.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Oh and btw I am not/was not staff and as DJ pointed out (Not meant to be offensive DJ, just like your example)I was never a professional employee. Thanks DJ, I believe that had been my point all along.
So please let Sharon and Felice handle that department, Anne.
Didn't you brag about being an Assistant Director?
Bla, Bla, Bla....AA only has 5% success rate, who gives a shit, I don't.
Obviously. You don't care about pesky facts....you only know what you "believe" and you mistake your "belief" for absolute truth.
I was reading this with about 10 other folks who are affiliated with AA and we just laugh. Nobody, I mean nobody really cares about the shit that you do.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: You damn well DO care or you wouldn't waste so much of your time here defending your savior.
Surveys, success rates, ect.....AA is one Alcoholic helping another with the 12 steps. That's it, all this other bullshit is for you folks to haggle about.
That statistic came directly from AA's own study, moron.
Anne you are a sad bitter women when it comes to AA,
Yup...I am. I hate shams that take advantage of vulnerable people.
I am surprised you have not quoted the OJ papers are another Doctor, as your buddy Ginger loves to do.
I have....you just choose to ignore actual research.
Better to quote outside/detached sources then to actually share your experiences. To vulnerable I guess.
Good luck....
Can you not read??? I've "shared" my experiences with AA and the various forms of it....OA, GA, SA, etc. etc. etc. Why don't you get to another Warrior meeting.....sounds like you need it.
-
Oh and btw I am not/was not staff and as DJ pointed out (Not meant to be offensive DJ, just like your example)I was never a professional employee. Thanks DJ, I believe that had been my point all along.
Really? Then what are we to make of these other statements you have also made:
Originally posted (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=30022#p358170) on Thu Dec 10, 2009:
I was an ex-staff and Director and I have experienced some hostility from ex-residents. Now to be honest I can't say I have handeled the conversations well especially the passionate ones. Now I was 17,18 and 19 when I was staff...
Originally posted (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=30027&p=358461#p358382) on 11 Mar 2010:
The other fact here Felice you knew I was a Director so what is your fucking point.
Originally posted (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=30038&p=358714#p358714) on 15 Mar 2010:
...I was Staff from 3/77 - 1/78 then I became a Ass. Director 1/78 - 11/78.
Originally posted (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=30075#p359009) on 17 Mar 2010:
...I also worked in Parsonfield back when Peter McCann was director, it was Rick Rosenhaus, Larry Smaller, Peter and myself. When did these riots happen? I was the Ass. Director of Elan 7...
Originally posted (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=30596&p=365409#p365409) on 03 Jun 2010:
Jeesh is a staff/Ass. Director not supposed to say these things, wow does this mean I am abusing you. Please tell me the rules because I am going to break them all...
Originally posted (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30684&p=367387#p367387) on 19 Jun 2010:
Awake I know you have found the Double Bind Phenomenon and this is a great piece of info yet does it apply in all TC's without exception. I found at Elan it really depended on the Director and staff, this could change found house to house, at least while I was a employee.
Originally posted (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1594&p=367462#p367462) on 20 Jun 2010:
Elan 4 was a lock down facility, with a electric lock switch controlled in the staff office. The mens and womens dorms were upstairs. I don't remember any cells being upstairs on either floor.
I worked there for 14 months from 10/76 till 2/78 with Peter McCann Director, Rick Rosenhaus Assistant Director, Larry Smaller, Steve Smith and myself as staff...
Originally posted (http://http://www.elanalum.com/Forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4035&p=6540&sid=9c9157d5d48852de58220af09c408500#p6540) on Sat Jul 03, 2010 (elanalum.com):
Thank you very much, My name is Daniel L. Bennison, I was in Elan from 6/75-1/77, Staff 1/77-2/78, Ass.Director 2/78-11/78. Worked with Marty, Jeff, Peter, Marc R., Rick R., Ken Z., Janet R. ect..... So there is enough folks to validate my employment and residency.
Fornits is much different then this site and I have always respected this site for it's authenticity and its commitment to Elan people.
If more Elan folks would just come here and share there thoughts, opinions no matter what they are and stay away from bashing one another, I believe they would find healing here through others words.
danny
[/list]
-
Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
-
I posted a couple of things on the double bind and A.A. over here.
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30423&start=30 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30423&start=30)
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30423&start=45 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30423&start=45) .
It may be relevant to the conversation on this thread. One argument against A.A. that I have is, is it acceptable to prescribe, or enforce a process of therapy that relies on maintaining lies, or a false interpretation of itself in order to achieve therapeutic results? If, when the reasons for success are openly shown, the process does not really work, can we classify it as treatment?
"…the alcoholic finds himself, no matter what he does, in a double bind: if he does not drink, has he really won? Or rather, has he lost because he has avoided the provocation?.....
How does the alcoholic in his contact with A.A., come to accept a definitive complementary position vis a vis the bottle? According to Bateson, the philosophy of A.A. is that an alcoholic can be helped ONLY when he has hit the very bottom, and has been reduced to the point of asking for help. Only then can he accept the humiliating sentence of A.A.: Once an alcoholic, always and alcoholic…..
In this insistence that the alcoholic touch the bottom before coming for help, and therefore in the explicit prescription that he do so, we can recognize the essential thrust used by A.A. to change the alcoholic. This time it is against A.A. that the alcoholic has to measure himself IN ORDER TO DEMONSTRATE THE FALSENESS OF THE HUMILIATING SENTENCE. In order to succeed he has only one choice: He will no longer be an alcoholic. He thus becomes symmetric in regard to the clear definition A.A. has given of him: Once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic. He accepts the complementary position in relation to the bottle in order to be symmetric with the definition (to reject it).
The therapeutic paradox consists of having forced the alcoholic to adopt the following position: “To show you (A.A.) that you are wrong, that is, that I won’t always be an alcoholic like you say, I don’t care anymore about the bottle. We can even say it is stronger than I am, that doesn’t matter. The important thing is that I show you that I am not what you say I am: always an alcoholic. ”….
Paradox and Counter-Paradox
A New Model in the Therapy of the Family in Schizophrenic Transaction.
c1978 Palazzoli”
-
yeah i found the once an addict always an addict thing a bit much. i prefer to define myself as someone who used to do drugs but who now does not. I think defining yourself as an addict is kind of limiting. But my real issue is that there can be a 1 size fits all approach. Like one thing i found genuinely useful was the idea of a moral inventory and i guess embracing humility as i can be a bit of an arrogant asshole at times. But i met a woman in rehab (it was not 12 step based) who found that more of a hinderance as she had like zero confidence. So 12 steps was totally inappropriate for her. She was also made to feel like she lacked appropriate commitment
-
Reformed.
It has nothing to do with thinned skinned, vulnerable emotionally, AA being accommodating to your whims, common attitudes that AA promotes ( BTW where in gods name do you get this) are you that dependent on people that you can not think for yourself. AA is a self help program with the ability to offer support if wanted. You don't actually need anyone to help you to gain some answers in AA, the literature will do this well.
If you want to find the sickest ones in AA to listen to then so be it. Everything you have mentioned anyone with common sense could figure out, as you did, as I did.
(I do not mean this literally, it is just for argument sake)
I think being a member of AA I have the almighty right to call you a asshole if I feel compelled to, What the hell gives you the right to make up all this shit about AA come here and puke it out, you got all your info from the sickest fuckes you could find, this doesn't say alot about you.
You keep saying people should be made aware of other options, does AA have a cloaking device to shut out all other options through satellite.....lol. There are plenty of other options, just as I said when I came around AA it was not the first choice mentioned to me.
danny i am not sure what you mean here. It seems you are suggesting i think there is some kind of aa conspiracy. I never said that. What i did say is that for the average person 12 steps is what they think of when they think of help for addiction. Most people are not aware of the other options. I also found that there was an attitude toward those who rejected aa of them being in denial. this is unhelpful as there are many ways to approach addiction. I suggest you ook at a book called recovery options. It looks at several ways to treat addiction.
I also am not getting my information from an "sick fucks" I am merely posting my own view and expereince of aa and its flaws. I have already said now on several occasions that i am not comaring it to most of the places posted about on this board.
Perhaps if i reread the big book more closely i would understand your viewpoint more. But frankly I dont want to because i dont have any use for it. Just like i am sure if i read the koran more i could argue more about the relative merits of islam. But i dont have the desire.
-
DANNY BENNISON YOU ***** ER
Danny,
Listen here! When Anne Bonney says "jump" you will respond "how high?' Do you understand Mr. Bennison? :roflmao:
Joel please, are you looking to get your ass handed to you again like they did at Eckels. When are you finally going to get honest about how you got your ass jacked up at that facility in Rhode Island.
As I heard the story, Mr.Tuff guy here tried to pull his shit there and had his ass handed to him. This I believe was part of the reason you had to go. Mr. I understand from working at these places how it works.
So keep correcting my English there dude and if you have any free time, please explain the above. Oh and do you know a former Staff by the name of Bob, Joel. He sure knows alot about you.
Just say'in, Joel.
[/color]
Danny you can speak to my attorneys at the law firm of Wolf & Eide regarding my work history per Eckerd Youth Alternatives.
telephone:
(877) 249-1336
(617) 699-8245
Jeesh am I now supposed to post my lawyers numbers you dumbass, who gives a fuck you jerk-off. Your work history sucks, Staffer......SO STFU.
-
Reform wrote
danny
i am not sure what you mean here. It seems you are suggesting i think there is some kind of aa conspiracy. I never said that. What i did say is that for the average person 12 steps is what they think of when they think of help for addiction. Most people are not aware of the other options. I also found that there was an attitude toward those who rejected aa of them being in denial. this is unhelpful as there are many ways to approach addiction. I suggest you ook at a book called recovery options. It looks at several ways to treat addiction.
I also am not getting my information from an "sick fucks" I am merely posting my own view and expereince of aa and its flaws. I have already said now on several occasions that i am not comaring it to most of the places posted about on this board.
Perhaps if i reread the big book more closely i would understand your viewpoint more. But frankly I dont want to because i dont have any use for it. Just like i am sure if i read the koran more i could argue more about the relative merits of islam. But i dont have the desire.
Ya know for 2 days I've been getting my ass kicked because I felt we were having a intelligent conversation about AA, that you had read the book and had genuinely experienced the program.
I don't care if you had liked AA or not, it was never about that.
Now you finally come forward and get honest (with a bogus excuse) and tell me you have not read shit, that you really have no idea what you talking about and that you just listen to everyone else.
I have nothing more except contempt, which I will keep to myself.
As I have said before, I am happy for you that you found a way to get off coke. Please let it remain this way.
Enjoy your life. It is the only one you have.
-
I'm tired of being tormented to hell, that's what I'm tired of.
didn't you say that same statement last week???? Get new material please.
-
DANNY BENNISON YOU ***** ER
Danny,
Listen here! When Anne Bonney says "jump" you will respond "how high?' Do you understand Mr. Bennison? :roflmao:
Joel please, are you looking to get your ass handed to you again like they did at Eckels. When are you finally going to get honest about how you got your ass jacked up at that facility in Rhode Island.
As I heard the story, Mr.Tuff guy here tried to pull his shit there and had his ass handed to him. This I believe was part of the reason you had to go. Mr. I understand from working at these places how it works.
So keep correcting my English there dude and if you have any free time, please explain the above. Oh and do you know a former Staff by the name of Bob, Joel. He sure knows alot about you.
Just say'in, Joel.
[/color]
Danny you can speak to my attorneys at the law firm of Wolf & Eide regarding my work history per Eckerd Youth Alternatives.
telephone:
(877) 249-1336
(617) 699-8245
Jeesh am I now supposed to post my lawyers numbers you dumbass, who gives a fuck you jerk-off. Your work history sucks, Staffer......SO STFU.
::puke:: ::puke:: ::puke:: You had the nerve to call someone staffer..omfg omfg please grow up
-
Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
-
Danny wrote:
Oh and btw I am not/was not staff[/b][/size] and as DJ pointed out (Not meant to be offensive DJ, just like your example)I was never a professional employee. Thanks DJ, I believe that had been my point all along.
Ursus wrote:
Really? Then what are we to make of these other statements you have also made:
Danny wrote:
Well what folks are going to make of this is at (17 yrs old I was Staff), at (18 yrs. old I was a Ass. Director). Ya the readers should have a real field day with this.
OOOOOOoooooohhhhhh, that big bad staffer.
Ursus go back to 10/09 and look at a post you commented on concerning me being a Ass. Director. This should help you to "MAKE OF THESE OTHER STATEMENTS", OK there big guy.
God I love this shit, you folks make a day extremely entertaining.
If you need more clarification why I said I was not staff, ask or check the thread that DJ said that and I replied.
It made alot of sense considering my education and age at the time.
Ursus why do you fool me at times with your intelligence then you show up at certain times with absolutely no common sense at all.
-
I'm tired of being tormented to hell, that's what I'm tired of.
didn't you say that same statement last week???? Get new material please.
I do what I do and I ain`t never gonna do it any different. I don`t care who likes it and who don`t.
-
I'm tired of being tormented to hell, that's what I'm tired of.
didn't you say that same statement last week???? Get new material please.
I do what I do and I ain`t never gonna do it any different. I don`t care who likes it and who don`t.
Me either sweetie get use to it....lmao lmao lmao least we all can say your not creative at all.
-
1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable.
2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.
11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.
12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs. ---and to practice these principles in all our affairs
Why has god forsaken Danny?
-
Danny wrote:
Oh and btw I am not/was not staff[/b][/size] and as DJ pointed out (Not meant to be offensive DJ, just like your example)I was never a professional employee. Thanks DJ, I believe that had been my point all along.
Ursus wrote:
Really? Then what are we to make of these other statements you have also made:
Danny wrote:
Well what folks are going to make of this is at (17 yrs old I was Staff), at (18 yrs. old I was a Ass. Director). Ya the readers should have a real field day with this.
OOOOOOoooooohhhhhh, that big bad staffer.
Ursus go back to 10/09 and look at a post you commented on concerning me being a Ass. Director. This should help you to "MAKE OF THESE OTHER STATEMENTS", OK there big guy.
God I love this shit, you folks make a day extremely entertaining.
If you need more clarification why I said I was not staff, ask or check the thread that DJ said that and I replied.
It made alot of sense considering my education and age at the time.
Ursus why do you fool me at times with your intelligence then you show up at certain times with absolutely no common sense at all.
Hi Danny long time no talk so is the job ready to go?
-
1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable.
2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.
11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.
12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs. ---and to practice these principles in all our affairs
Why has god forsaken Danny?
Well I can see your step-mom must have let you out of your Disability Check housing arraignment. Nice to see you back Felicio.......lol.
So long as you take your Disability Check and spend it on pot, you can at least use the excuse it was for medicinal purposes, right. Maybe it is your step moms money, who knows.
Get your head right, we still have a lot of summer left.
Oh, I hope you remember, I will be visiting Elan soon (well hopefully), I'll be in Maine by the weekend. I'll keep you posted sweety.
Remember you asked what a "Fnord" was, back a few months ago.
Nice try, dumbass.
-
Wrongo Danno. This is between you and god and your sponsor.
Why didn't god fix you?
-
danny,
why the fuck would think im felice... what we had together hasn't nothing to do with her................i'm talking about the blowjob you gave my daughter and me over a bullshit job you never had
-
i lost all my friends cause they said you were a piece of shit staffer.......................little dick............sharon said you were......evil
-
welcome to my world..........
-
Maybe DannyB is a genus master mind that really hates AA and wants to give it a bad name by having it associated with his fucktard posts
-
Maybe DannyB is a genus master mind that really hates AA and wants to give it a bad name by having it associated with his fucktard posts
maybe Danny boy is just a fuck head........... i'm baaaaaaaack
-
Were you his sponsor? Do you know why god hath forsaken him? Did he do steps wrong or trip and fall down some?
-
Reform wrote
danny
i am not sure what you mean here. It seems you are suggesting i think there is some kind of aa conspiracy. I never said that. What i did say is that for the average person 12 steps is what they think of when they think of help for addiction. Most people are not aware of the other options. I also found that there was an attitude toward those who rejected aa of them being in denial. this is unhelpful as there are many ways to approach addiction. I suggest you ook at a book called recovery options. It looks at several ways to treat addiction.
I also am not getting my information from an "sick fucks" I am merely posting my own view and expereince of aa and its flaws. I have already said now on several occasions that i am not comaring it to most of the places posted about on this board.
Perhaps if i reread the big book more closely i would understand your viewpoint more. But frankly I dont want to because i dont have any use for it. Just like i am sure if i read the koran more i could argue more about the relative merits of islam. But i dont have the desire.
Ya know for 2 days I've been getting my ass kicked because I felt we were having a intelligent conversation about AA, that you had read the book and had genuinely experienced the program.
I don't care if you had liked AA or not, it was never about that.
Now you finally come forward and get honest (with a bogus excuse) and tell me you have not read shit, that you really have no idea what you talking about and that you just listen to everyone else.
I have nothing more except contempt, which I will keep to myself.
As I have said before, I am happy for you that you found a way to get off coke. Please let it remain this way.
Enjoy your life. It is the only one you have.
I dont really know what your issue is or why you are so defensive. How exactly have i been kicking your ass? If you read my post you would see that i had read the book during my time in 12 steps, but i have no desire to reread it for the purposes of this discussion. I should add that you have not kept your contempt to yourself or any of the discussion but i am curious as to why? why does any criticism of aa make you so mad that you call people assholes when they are critical? Why have you travelled the world only to go to meetings in every country? because that is more following a religion than using a self help tool. why would you hold people who don't spend hours pouring over bills bloddy big book in contempt? Why do you demand that perfect strangers from the internet get honest with you? Surely if the 12 steps were nothing more than a self help organization you would have a little less personally invested.
-
Reform wrote
danny
i am not sure what you mean here. It seems you are suggesting i think there is some kind of aa conspiracy. I never said that. What i did say is that for the average person 12 steps is what they think of when they think of help for addiction. Most people are not aware of the other options. I also found that there was an attitude toward those who rejected aa of them being in denial. this is unhelpful as there are many ways to approach addiction. I suggest you ook at a book called recovery options. It looks at several ways to treat addiction.
I also am not getting my information from an "sick fucks" I am merely posting my own view and expereince of aa and its flaws. I have already said now on several occasions that i am not comaring it to most of the places posted about on this board.
Perhaps if i reread the big book more closely i would understand your viewpoint more. But frankly I dont want to because i dont have any use for it. Just like i am sure if i read the koran more i could argue more about the relative merits of islam. But i dont have the desire.
Ya know for 2 days I've been getting my ass kicked because I felt we were having a intelligent conversation about AA, that you had read the book and had genuinely experienced the program.
I don't care if you had liked AA or not, it was never about that.
Now you finally come forward and get honest (with a bogus excuse) and tell me you have not read shit, that you really have no idea what you talking about and that you just listen to everyone else.
I have nothing more except contempt, which I will keep to myself.
As I have said before, I am happy for you that you found a way to get off coke. Please let it remain this way.
Enjoy your life. It is the only one you have.
I dont really know what your issue is or why you are so defensive. How exactly have i been kicking your ass? If you read my post you would see that i had read the book during my time in 12 steps, but i have no desire to reread it for the purposes of this discussion. I should add that you have not kept your contempt to yourself or any of the discussion but i am curious as to why? why does any criticism of aa make you so mad that you call people assholes when they are critical? Why have you travelled the world only to go to meetings in every country? because that is more following a religion than using a self help tool. why would you hold people who don't spend hours pouring over bills bloddy big book in contempt? Why do you demand that perfect strangers from the internet get honest with you? Surely if the 12 steps were nothing more than a self help organization you would have a little less personally invested.
Ya know why your a asshole because you waste peoples time, that's why. You talk in circles and make absolutely no sense at all. I don't care That Much For AA, you dumbass, please read this carefully, it is not about whether I or you like AA, it is about finding someone that can quote at least one genuine experience. Who understands what is in the book and can quote it accurately. Not take what people are saying then say, "this is what AA stands for".
But hey, what the fuck do I know.
Last note there, "bloody good show",
Why would you get on a world wide web and give a opinion and share your experience about AA, when 1) you never read the Book and 2) have a total of 5 people you met in AA as your experience and you base your experience on their characters.
-
Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
-
whose time am i wasting here? it is an internet forum. What do you think my apparently inadequately informed opinion is somehow preventing you from solving the problems of the world? And what would you propose anyone do to gain adequate enough experience of an organization to in your opinion speak? Should i go to a meeting in every country and every town i visit? Read the big book cover to cover a million times over so that i can quote it like the bible? even though i have stated 3 times now that i read it when i first attended and there was a disconnect between it and what went on at the meeting, lets say for arguments sake that i didnt read it. Why does this inspire irrational levels of rage in you?
All anyone on an internet forum does is offer their own opinion based on their own experience. tThis is what I have done. I am sorry that it has sent you over the deep end. :cheers:
-
Danny if you don't relax you're going to have a heart attack. I think you're taking replies in this thread to serious.
I already know all I need to know about your employment at Eckard, in Rhode Island.
-
Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
-
Grateful for the posts by 'reformed'. Gonna weigh in here. At the moment, I'm muddy, bloody, poorer, tired and happy. just come back from fishing (really river-cats are hunting, and no I ain't telling where or how) Staying for a few days in a cheap motel, got a steak on the grill feet on the rail, need a shave and long hot shower, mid way to moderately drunk.My hands are near black with powder.
What I have found among "twelve steps" ( like most everyone, in the seventies and early eighties I was a crime in progress, so i've had my share of dogma, seen my share of 'twelves'.)
In my experience A) Twelves are group oriented. Trust the group, they are wiser than I. ... Not to put too keen an edge on it, but that's a distributive intelligence kind of thing, and Insects have functioned that way for a long, long time. Just ain't me.
B) There is a real dependence on 'twelve' dogma, no less than many Christian literalists, and the same rage when dogma is questioned.
C) 'Twelves are prone to manipulative gaming, following the need for consensus, for group think is overriding. Often at the expense of 'ordinary morals, ethics or compassion.
D) As population pressure drives more and more to the 'hive ethos', I only see the proliferation of the groups, in myriad form. ( Hate to be such a mary-sunshine on the issue, but i ain't optimistic) Antidote? I'll quote Stripe "Tell the Truth"
J.O.M.
-
Ive never gotten the hang of fishing. Every other male in my family is into it though. My solitary manly activity is surfing. It always makes me feel more flinty eyed and steve erwinesque.
I think i get why the group thing is attractive, there is something within us that makes everyone want to flock toward people like us or to rally around a common cause. It is why if you go to a dinner party around election time the room becomes divided pretty quickly. Ive always been a bit of a pack animal myself. It is probably the logic that makes well meaning friends recommend 12 step like programs to people in the first place.
-
Ive never gotten the hang of fishing. Every other male in my family is into it though. My solitary manly activity is surfing. It always makes me feel more flinty eyed and steve erwinesque.
I think i get why the group thing is attractive, there is something within us that makes everyone want to flock toward people like us or to rally around a common cause. It is why if you go to a dinner party around election time the room becomes divided pretty quickly. Ive always been a bit of a pack animal myself. It is probably the logic that makes well meaning friends recommend 12 step like programs to people in the first place.
That's one of the aspects of AA that I don't have a problem with at all. If it's used as a support group....people who are trying to quit drinking, hanging out with others who either have quit or are trying is great! The 12 Steps, Big Book, 12 & 12, Sponsors etc. are what I have a problem with. To me, they teach powerlessness, which I don't believe is true....no one is powerless over picking up a drink. They might become powerless over their actions AFTER they start drinking, but nobody's powerless over having a drink or not.
The tenets also, IMO, teach that the 'self' is not to be trusted. It teaches that one's will is to be turned over to someone (sponsor, group) or something. I've watched numerous sponsors destroy marriages because they felt that the spouse wasn't supportive enough of AA and therefore a 'threat' to the sponsees sobriety. I've watched numerous sponsors advise sponsees to go off their prescribed medication because the sponsor deems it a 'threat' to sobriety. I've watched numerous incidents of "13th stepping"......guys preying on vulnerable newcomer girls, further damaging their already fragile self esteem.
A group that gathers to support each other in their efforts to quit drinking is fine....but to tell them that they're "signing their own death warrant" if they leave 'the rooms' is deplorable.
-
Reform wrote
danny
i am not sure what you mean here. It seems you are suggesting i think there is some kind of aa conspiracy. I never said that. What i did say is that for the average person 12 steps is what they think of when they think of help for addiction. Most people are not aware of the other options. I also found that there was an attitude toward those who rejected aa of them being in denial. this is unhelpful as there are many ways to approach addiction. I suggest you ook at a book called recovery options. It looks at several ways to treat addiction.
I also am not getting my information from an "sick fucks" I am merely posting my own view and expereince of aa and its flaws. I have already said now on several occasions that i am not comaring it to most of the places posted about on this board.
Perhaps if i reread the big book more closely i would understand your viewpoint more. But frankly I dont want to because i dont have any use for it. Just like i am sure if i read the koran more i could argue more about the relative merits of islam. But i dont have the desire.
Ya know for 2 days I've been getting my ass kicked because I felt we were having a intelligent conversation about AA, that you had read the book and had genuinely experienced the program.
I don't care if you had liked AA or not, it was never about that.
Now you finally come forward and get honest (with a bogus excuse) and tell me you have not read shit, that you really have no idea what you talking about and that you just listen to everyone else.
I have nothing more except contempt, which I will keep to myself.
As I have said before, I am happy for you that you found a way to get off coke. Please let it remain this way.
Enjoy your life. It is the only one you have.
I dont really know what your issue is or why you are so defensive. How exactly have i been kicking your ass? If you read my post you would see that i had read the book during my time in 12 steps, but i have no desire to reread it for the purposes of this discussion. I should add that you have not kept your contempt to yourself or any of the discussion but i am curious as to why? why does any criticism of aa make you so mad that you call people assholes when they are critical? Why have you travelled the world only to go to meetings in every country? because that is more following a religion than using a self help tool. why would you hold people who don't spend hours pouring over bills bloddy big book in contempt? Why do you demand that perfect strangers from the internet get honest with you? Surely if the 12 steps were nothing more than a self help organization you would have a little less personally invested.
Ya know why your a asshole because you waste peoples time, that's why. You talk in circles and make absolutely no sense at all. I don't care That Much For AA, you dumbass, please read this carefully, it is not about whether I or you like AA, it is about finding someone that can quote at least one genuine experience. Who understands what is in the book and can quote it accurately. Not take what people are saying then say, "this is what AA stands for".
But hey, what the fuck do I know.
Last note there, "bloody good show",
Why would you get on a world wide web and give a opinion and share your experience about AA, when 1) you never read the Book and 2) have a total of 5 people you met in AA as your experience and you base your experience on their characters.
Who determines whether or not someone "understands what is in the book," and whether or not they "can quote at least one genuine experience," and whether or not they "can quote it accurately?"
And why, if you "don't care That Much For AA, you dumbass," would you even bother yourself with whether or not someone does or does not "understand?"
-
Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
-
Ya know why your a asshole because you waste peoples time, that's why.
Ok.....first, another English lesson.
Separate your sentences, like this....."Ya know why your (sic.....it's a contraction Danny, therefore use "you're") a (sic, should be "an") asshole? (Notice the use of the question mark after a question?) Because you waste peoples ("People" is a plural verb, so you need to put 's to the end of the verb) time, that's (hey, congrats on the proper use of a contraction!) why.
Now, on to the use of "A" v. "AN"
A vs. An
Use the indefinite article a / an before singular count nouns. Use a before consonant sounds, and use an before vowel sounds.
* an apple
* a bear
* an ostrich
* a camel
* an awful sound
* a rotten egg
* an ugly cat
* a small elephant
* an elephant
Words That Start with H or U
Be careful of words that start with h or u. Some words that begin with these two letters start with a vowel sound and some start with a consonant sound.
For words that start with h, we use a when the h is pronounced, and we use an when the h is silent.
* a helicopter
* an honest politician
* an hour
* a hopeful dreamer
For words that begin with u, we use a when the u is pronounced as a consonant, and an when the u is pronounced as a vowel.
* an umbrella
* a unicorn
* a university
* an unusual gift
So, your sentence should read thusly (although it's debatable on whether or not the "that's why" was correct).......
Ya know why you're an asshole? Because you waste people's time, that's why.
You talk in circles and make absolutely no sense at all.
Oh for fuck's sake Danny......talk about projection on your part. Half the time no one can understand what you attempt to write.
I don't care That Much For AA, you dumbass,
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
And just out of curiosity, why did you capitalize "That Much For"? Weird.
Bull. Farking. Shit. You care deeply or you wouldn't get so offended whenever AA is criticized.
please read this carefully, it is not about whether I or you like AA, it is about finding someone that can quote at least one genuine experience.
Ok....you found one. Now what? What would you like to know?
Who understands what is in the book and can quote it accurately.
Ok....you found one. Now what? What would you like to know?
But hey, what the fuck do I know.
Not much.
Last note there, "bloody good show",
Why would you get on a world wide web and give a opinion {AN opinion!!!! AN!!!!! Not A opinion!!!!} and share your experience about AA, when 1) you never read the Book and 2) have a total of 5 people you met in AA as your experience and you base your experience on their characters.
I don't remember him saying that, but I could have missed it. Could you point me to where he said that? But, who cares anyway? His experience is his experience. Why shouldn't he be entitled to speak of it wherever and whenever he chooses? If you don't like it, or don't think it makes any sense then just skip over it. It's not that difficult to do.
-
Maybe DannyB is a genus master mind that really hates AA and wants to give it a bad name by having it associated with his fucktard posts
You may be onto something there! I've been saying for a while now that he's a PERFECT example of what Elan/Daytop/etc. can do to a person. He's been on some form of 'self help, newage, guru worship' quest for most of his life, apparently. Look at all the "good" it's done for him!
:rocker: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
-
Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
-
Danny
Danny do you want to meet somewhere neutral and go a few rounds? I think an older person like yourself needs a reality check every now and then! :rocker:
I don't think Danny is gay, so I suspect he's going to turn you down.
-
Reformed... i take exception. Fishing is not about catching unless you're commercial. it's about being there. Hunting is not about killing, it's about ' how shall I live? ' The experience is about watching, knowing the worlds around you, seeing again that what you think is not so important as what actually happens. There is life abundant, sometimes beautiful, sometimes terrible, and you're in the middle of it. Sometimes it will kill you, sometimes it will redeem you. Figure it out as best you can, as fast as you can. " Love, and do what you will"
J.O.M.
-
That's one of the aspects of AA that I don't have a problem with at all. If it's used as a support group....people who are trying to quit drinking, hanging out with others who either have quit or are trying is great! The 12 Steps, Big Book, 12 & 12, Sponsors etc. are what I have a problem with. To me, they teach powerlessness, which I don't believe is true....no one is powerless over picking up a drink. They might become powerless over their actions AFTER they start drinking, but nobody's powerless over having a drink or not.
The tenets also, IMO, teach that the 'self' is not to be trusted. It teaches that one's will is to be turned over to someone (sponsor, group) or something. I've watched numerous sponsors destroy marriages because they felt that the spouse wasn't supportive enough of AA and therefore a 'threat' to the sponsees sobriety. I've watched numerous sponsors advise sponsees to go off their prescribed medication because the sponsor deems it a 'threat' to sobriety. I've watched numerous incidents of "13th stepping"......guys preying on vulnerable newcomer girls, further damaging their already fragile self esteem.
A group that gathers to support each other in their efforts to quit drinking is fine....but to tell them that they're "signing their own death warrant" if they leave 'the rooms' is deplorable.
Its funny you mention sponsors. I was not around long enough to get one. But i liked the idea at first. I am a chef by trade and as a young fellow had obviously been an apprentice. I had also hired many apprentices in my own restaurant so the idea of mentoring someone else or having a mentor who might be for lack of a better term be further along in the journey and therefore perhaps a little wiser actually appealed to me. I can remember some sponsors seeming like they were really good at it in terms of being really good non judgmental listeners. I think also for people who are a bit socially isolated and just dont have any family or friends to really turn to when they are particularly blue a sponsor is a great idea. Having said that because aa is designed to be an amateur organization, there is not screening process and where i am from not that many ground rules or complaint mechanisms for when a sponsor goes bad. Thus i saw some sponsors get a little bit dogmatic and controlling. It was also an excellent tool for seedy "13th steppers" to try and crack onto people who were perhaps going through a bit of a vulnerable period of their life.
As to the hunter and fisherman. I am told that this tranquility is the appeal. I think my deal is that i am too add to sit down for that long. But as the french say viva la difference :seg:
-
Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
-
Ursus wrote:
Who determines whether or not someone "understands what is in the book," and whether or not they "can quote at least one genuine experience," and whether or not they "can quote it accurately?"
And why, if you "don't care That Much For AA, you dumbass," would you even bother yourself with whether or not someone does or does not "understand?"
Ursus if you had read the posts with objectivity, then had some understanding of AA (helps if you read and studied the book), we could have a intelligent conversation about what you are asking. But as usual you are just reacting because you find my comments to "Reform" not to your liking.
It is very hard to talk with anyone who does not have first hand knowledge of AA because of it's inherent principles concerning authority, public reletions, guiding folks through the steps, groups, ect.....It is very easy to have a negative experience with AA because there are no enforceable laws, strict disciplines, covenents on socialization ect....
AA is the "Big Book", how you want to interpret, talk about and so on is your business.
I just want to make sure folks know that "AA" GSO in NYC is not endorsing all this crap that goes on in the groups across America and the world.
You called me a dumbass, since when do you dumpster dive with the mass.
-
You called me a dumbass, since when do you dumpster dive with the mass.
Au contraire. Check it again. That was your quote, I merely quoted you.
Don't flatter yourself too much here... If I have any say in it, I wouldn't be caught dead in the dumpster with the likes of you! :D
J/K Danny; I couldn't resist the dumpster reference! :seg:
-
You called me a dumbass, since when do you dumpster dive with the mass.
Au contraire. Check it again. That was your quote, I merely quoted you.
Don't flatter yourself too much here... If I have any say in it, I wouldn't be caught dead in the dumpster with the likes of you! :D
Wow ouch!!!!!!!! "With the likes of me", have we really come this far in our relationship that you are now hurling condescending remarks my way. I guess I have arrived, finally...... :cheers:
-
There is a real dependence on 'twelve' dogma, no less than many Christian literalists, and the same rage when dogma is questioned.
drug rehab (http://http://www.soberrecovery.com)
-
There is a real dependence on 'twelve' dogma, no less than many Christian literalists, and the same rage when dogma is questioned.
drug rehab (http://http://www.soberrecovery.com)
I have a question," Do you acknowledge your need to attack folks who support AA's dogma, with the same rage you claim 12 step supporters have for your dogma???
I also have one request from you, please. Would you post a article from AA World Headquaters, GSO NYC, that argues, criticizes, condescends or otherwise debases another person, organization, or entity concerning the "Self-Help" industry.
Thanks...
-
There is a real dependence on 'twelve' dogma, no less than many Christian literalists, and the same rage when dogma is questioned.
drug rehab (http://http://www.soberrecovery.com)
I have a question," Do you acknowledge your need to attack folks who support AA's dogma, with the same rage you claim 12 step supporters have for your dogma???
I also have one request from you, please. Would you post a article from AA World Headquaters, GSO NYC, that argues, criticizes, condescends or otherwise debases another person, organization, or entity concerning the "Self-Help" industry.
Thanks...
Hey Danny, you tried to "expose" soberrecovery.com along with the Mulligan Group a few months ago by starting this thread (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=29816), but then deleted all content from yer posts (roughly half the thread) and even shed that user name.
Did ya change your mind 'bout the 12-Step recovery industry? Back then, ya seemed to think they were a scam. But now... ?
-
There is a real dependence on 'twelve' dogma, no less than many Christian literalists, and the same rage when dogma is questioned.
drug rehab (http://http://www.soberrecovery.com)
I have a question," Do you acknowledge your need to attack folks who support AA's dogma, with the same rage you claim 12 step supporters have for your dogma???
I also have one request from you, please. Would you post a article from AA World Headquaters, GSO NYC, that argues, criticizes, condescends or otherwise debases another person, organization, or entity concerning the "Self-Help" industry.
Thanks...
Hey Danny, you tried to "expose" soberrecovery.com along with the Mulligan Group a few months ago by starting this thread (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=29816), but then deleted all content from yer posts (roughly half the thread) and even shed that user name.
Did ya change your mind 'bout the 12-Step recovery industry? Back then, ya seemed to think they were a scam. But now... ?
Your mind is a funny thing, it works on bases of "selective memory". DJ and yourself love to augment and manipulate the actual posts and their intention. Which as a moderator is a shame but your admin buddies don't really give a shit because mod's around here are hard to replace.
Well let me help you once again, what is this the 100th time in the short time I've been here. I posted the Mulligan Group to ask if you folks had/have anything negative on them.
Dumbass, I am affiliated with them for your information. I wanted to know.
Lets get something straight Ursus so there is no more misunderstanding, I do not sit/stand on the same side of the field that you do. Actually I find your kind to be the problem with the TTI industry.
So please do not confuse my intentions or convictions anymore.
I am always looking for information and have no alliance with you.
-
Trincypris12 did not write that about the rage when dogma is questioned. I did. If you are going to quote me, then quote me. Plagiarism is childish, and sleazy, and awful, and wakkie nu-nu. jeez grow up wiilya, doo-doo heads!
J.O.M.
-
There is a real dependence on 'twelve' dogma, no less than many Christian literalists, and the same rage when dogma is questioned.
drug rehab (http://http://www.soberrecovery.com)
I have a question," Do you acknowledge your need to attack folks who support AA's dogma, with the same rage you claim 12 step supporters have for your dogma???
I also have one request from you, please. Would you post a article from AA World Headquaters, GSO NYC, that argues, criticizes, condescends or otherwise debases another person, organization, or entity concerning the "Self-Help" industry.
Thanks...
Hey Danny, you tried to "expose" soberrecovery.com along with the Mulligan Group a few months ago by starting this thread (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=29816), but then deleted all content from yer posts (roughly half the thread) and even shed that user name.
Did ya change your mind 'bout the 12-Step recovery industry? Back then, ya seemed to think they were a scam. But now... ?
Your mind is a funny thing, it works on bases of "selective memory". DJ and yourself love to augment and manipulate the actual posts and their intention. Which as a moderator is a shame but your admin buddies don't really give a shit because mod's around here are hard to replace.
Well let me help you once again, what is this the 100th time in the short time I've been here. I posted the Mulligan Group to ask if you folks had/have anything negative on them.
Dumbass, I am affiliated with them for your information. I wanted to know.
Lets get something straight Ursus so there is no more misunderstanding, I do not sit/stand on the same side of the field that you do. Actually I find your kind to be the problem with the TTI industry.
So please do not confuse my intentions or convictions anymore.
I am always looking for information and have no alliance with you.
Well, your being affiliated with the Mulligan Group would make a lot of sense — as far as your fishing for the consensus about them around here goes...
It also makes sense as to why you would quote-reply an obvious piece of soberrecover.com SPAM, the better to ensure that it stays on the forum.
However, I beg to differ on your description of my "selective memory." I distinctly remember your posts (which you wiped clean within a few weeks of posting them) containing a tone of disparagement towards the Mulligan Group. All the better to fish for info, mmm?
Also, another thing that I found odd at the time was your depiction of them as being quite large, as if they were in the process of taking over the 12-step addiction treatment industry at any time. Since I had never even heard of them before (not that that means anything), I found that intimation somewhat alarmist and inflated, but... it's not like *I* would really know about something like that, eh? :D Somehow, your revelation that you are affiliated with them puts that in a more understandable context. Lol x 3.
-
Trincypris12 did not write that about the rage when dogma is questioned. I did. If you are going to quote me, then quote me. Plagiarism is childish, and sleazy, and awful, and wakkie nu-nu. jeez grow up wiilya, doo-doo heads!
J.O.M.
Perhaps Danny quoting Trincypris12 in response to you was no accident. It appears that Danny has "connections" to soberrecovery.com, and Trincypris12 posted an obvious piece of soberrecovery.com SPAM.
How best to ensure that spam doesn't get deleted? Quote-reply it! :D
-
Well, your being affiliated with the Mulligan Group would make a lot of sense — as far as your fishing for the consensus about them around here goes...
Ya, what a great conclusion.
It also makes sense as to why you would quote-reply an obvious piece of soberrecover.com SPAM, the better to ensure that it stays on the forum.
Ursus, are you experiencing patho-paranoia episodes.
However, I beg to differ on your description of my "selective memory." I distinctly remember your posts (which you wiped clean within a few weeks of posting them) containing a tone of disparagement towards the Mulligan Group. All the better to fish for info, mmm?
No you do not "distintly" remember me disparaging Mulligan Group at all, nice try there. This is one of the reasons Whooter has to keep mentioning the obvious to our readers, that you (Ursus) will manipulate and circumvent posts to fit your extremist attitudes. One could almost say it borderlines on "out right lying" but we are still under advisement not to say this until more info has been gathered.
Your words will eventually bury you Ursus.
Also, another thing that I found odd at the time was your depiction of them as being quite large, as if they were in the process of taking over the 12-step addiction treatment industry at any time. Since I had never even heard of them before (not that that means anything), I found that intimation somewhat alarmist and inflated, but... it's not like *I* would really know about something like that, eh? :D Somehow, your revelation that you are affiliated with them puts that in a more understandable context. Lol x 3.
Well I guess we did not have to wait long, you are a liar. Your statement above is a premeditated lie, which you are saying because you believe you can say whatever you want because my posts were erased. Which now you will try to manipulate folks here into believing that I erased because I was hiding something.
Ursus please, your "MO" is very well known here, it is old, you have tried to disrespect many good people here with your immoral tricks. Why you are a moderator only speaks for itself. Dogs often lie/lye with fleas.
-
I think we all should take a breath, stfu, kiss and make-up..
(http://http://api.ning.com/files/XYMiXEapaDXM7ZBCpZz4exyCSTkHSc*e*ZzSHZUEXBHmQ6YFV3eRTs8wQMnJ*GxXiWtJNXjNAjUVrz6VaApQkic8VMNGws2c/kissBand1.jpg)
-
I think we all should take a breath, stfu, kiss and make-up..
(http://http://api.ning.com/files/XYMiXEapaDXM7ZBCpZz4exyCSTkHSc*e*ZzSHZUEXBHmQ6YFV3eRTs8wQMnJ*GxXiWtJNXjNAjUVrz6VaApQkic8VMNGws2c/kissBand1.jpg)
OK, I agree but I will not do, French. Ursus you??????
-
I'm confused.. What is a 'premeditative lie' and how do dogs 'lye' with fleas? what the hell does this mean? Seems like crazy-talk stupid-talkJ.O.M.
-
I'm confused.. What is a 'premeditated lie' and how do dogs 'lye' with fleas? what the hell does this mean? Seems like crazy-talk stupid-talkJ.O.M.
Well they used to use soap mixed with lye to help get rid of fleas....sorry not thinking or thinking to much.
premeditated lie....jeesh JOM, I'm sorry I forgot I was writing to someone who never misspells anything. My psuedo-intellect is on the scene.
Don't rupture your ball-sack there JOM, on your rebuttals..... :roflmao:
-
Well, your being affiliated with the Mulligan Group would make a lot of sense — as far as your fishing for the consensus about them around here goes...
Ya, what a great conclusion.
Did ya forget that you yourself posted this (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=30745&start=90#p370095) just a couple of hours ago? Try rereading it one word at a time. You might make more sense of it then, emphasis added to assist you:
I posted the Mulligan Group to ask if you folks had/have anything negative on them.
Dumbass, I am affiliated with them for your information. I wanted to know.
[/list][/list]
-------------- --------------
However, I beg to differ on your description of my "selective memory." I distinctly remember your posts (which you wiped clean within a few weeks of posting them) containing a tone of disparagement towards the Mulligan Group. All the better to fish for info, mmm?
No you do not "distintly" remember me disparaging Mulligan Group at all, nice try there. This is one of the reasons Whooter has to keep mentioning the obvious to our readers, that you (Ursus) will manipulate and circumvent posts to fit your extremist attitudes. One could almost say it borderlines on "out right lying" but we are still under advisement not to say this until more info has been gathered.
Your words will eventually bury you Ursus.
Ah... and here is where "Mulligan Group affiliate Danny Bennison" has got to come out gangbuster-style, for fear that his associates might begin to question the ethics behind his information gathering tactics, lol. Where's the manipulation, Dannyboy? The circumvention? The borderline "out right lying?" Why, pray tell, they would appear to be in YOUR posts, me boy, plain as day! :D
Did I say you disparaged Mulligan Group? No, I did not. Note that I described my remembering your conveniently wiped posts as having contained "a tone of disparagement towards the Mulligan Group." Ya know what a TONE is, Dannyboy? It reflects "the writer's attitude toward the material." In this case towards Mulligan Group. I don't recall your actually saying anything specifically disparaging, but I do recall the tone to be thus. Tone can also be the sound of something, like a bell, but not the bell itself. One could say it evokes something or other.
Nice try at putting words in my mouth, but ya still FAIL. Lol x 4.
-------------- --------------
Also, another thing that I found odd at the time was your depiction of them as being quite large, as if they were in the process of taking over the 12-step addiction treatment industry at any time. Since I had never even heard of them before (not that that means anything), I found that intimation somewhat alarmist and inflated, but... it's not like *I* would really know about something like that, eh? :D Somehow, your revelation that you are affiliated with them puts that in a more understandable context. Lol x 3.
Well I guess we did not have to wait long, you are a liar. Your statement above is a pre-meditative lie, which you are saying because you believe you can say whatever you want because my posts were erased. Which now you will try to manipulate folks here into believing that I erased because I was hiding something.
Ursus please, your "MO" is very well known here, it is old, you have tried to disrespect many good people here with your immoral tricks. Why you are a moderator only speaks for itself. Dogs often lie/lye with fleas.
Oooooo... Danny dishes out more gangbuster-style assertations! :eek: And calls me a liar! :timeout:
Too bad, Dannyboy, I called ya fair and square. Remember that bell I mentioned above?
it tolls for THEE! :D[/list]
-
Well, your being affiliated with the Mulligan Group would make a lot of sense — as far as your fishing for the consensus about them around here goes...
Ya, what a great conclusion.
Did ya forget that you yourself posted this (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=30745&start=90#p370095) just a couple of hours ago? Try rereading it one word at a time. You might make more sense of it then, emphasis added to assist you:
I posted the Mulligan Group to ask if you folks had/have anything negative on them.
Dumbass, I am affiliated with them for your information. I wanted to know.
[/list][/list]
-------------- --------------
However, I beg to differ on your description of my "selective memory." I distinctly remember your posts (which you wiped clean within a few weeks of posting them) containing a tone of disparagement towards the Mulligan Group. All the better to fish for info, mmm?
No you do not "distintly" remember me disparaging Mulligan Group at all, nice try there. This is one of the reasons Whooter has to keep mentioning the obvious to our readers, that you (Ursus) will manipulate and circumvent posts to fit your extremist attitudes. One could almost say it borderlines on "out right lying" but we are still under advisement not to say this until more info has been gathered.
Your words will eventually bury you Ursus.
Ah... and here is where "Mulligan Group affiliate Danny Bennison" has got to come out gangbuster-style, for fear that his associates might begin to question the ethics behind his information gathering tactics, lol. Where's the manipulation, Dannyboy? The circumvention? The borderline "out right lying?" Why, pray tell, they would appear to be in YOUR posts, me boy, plain as day! :D
Did I say you disparaged Mulligan Group? No, I did not. Note that I described my remembering your conveniently wiped posts as having contained "a tone of disparagement towards the Mulligan Group." Ya know what a TONE is, Dannyboy? It reflects "the writer's attitude toward the material." In this case towards Mulligan Group. I don't recall your actually saying anything specifically disparaging, but I do recall the tone to be thus. Tone can also be the sound of something, like a bell, but not the bell itself. One could say it evokes something or other.
Nice try at putting words in my mouth, but ya still FAIL. Lol x 4.
-------------- --------------
Also, another thing that I found odd at the time was your depiction of them as being quite large, as if they were in the process of taking over the 12-step addiction treatment industry at any time. Since I had never even heard of them before (not that that means anything), I found that intimation somewhat alarmist and inflated, but... it's not like *I* would really know about something like that, eh? :D Somehow, your revelation that you are affiliated with them puts that in a more understandable context. Lol x 3.
Well I guess we did not have to wait long, you are a liar. Your statement above is a pre-meditative lie, which you are saying because you believe you can say whatever you want because my posts were erased. Which now you will try to manipulate folks here into believing that I erased because I was hiding something.
Ursus please, your "MO" is very well known here, it is old, you have tried to disrespect many good people here with your immoral tricks. Why you are a moderator only speaks for itself. Dogs often lie/lye with fleas.
Oooooo... Danny dishes out more gangbuster-style assertations! :eek: And calls me a liar! :timeout:
Too bad, Dannyboy, I called ya fair and square. Remember that bell I mentioned above?
it tolls for THEE! :D[/list]
Ursus you could have saved all this bold, Itallic and quotations, because as I said you are a liar, never really thought this way before about you but you really leave me no choice. I'm sure it is no skin off your back but it does say a lot about you to me. I have never had you attack me as such and then try to spin it back at me as if you were just a "choir boy". I have watched you do this to whooter countless times and others but never really paid attention to the levels of deceit you will go to.
Ursus there is no wiggle room here, I did not misconstrue or misunderstand anything you wrote and inferred. It is all clear I just responded to your ascertains with a precise rebuttal, you are lying.
Dance all you want to your "tone" explanation, I have not the time for pseudo politicians like you, who enjoy spinning. I happen to work for a living and the decisions I make do impact real people so there is no room for games, call it gangbusters or whatever but real folks like to call it, "calling a spade a spade".
You do understand the rebuts you gave this last time make absolutely no sense at all, unless your Ursus.
-
premeditative lie
A lie one tells before meditating?
-
premeditative lie
A lie one tells before meditating?
to plan in advance....
...
-
never mind...
lol
-
never mind...
lol
Just having fun, it was funny, sorry.
...
-
Another great thread.