Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Anne Bonney on June 17, 2010, 11:43:34 AM
-
My comments in blue
http://www.cultnews.com/?p=2075 (http://www.cultnews.com/?p=2075)
Kids trained by Landmark Education, is it “brainwashing” or their “salvation”?
Not content with making money from adults paying for its controversial large group awareness training (LGAT) the controversial company called “Landmark Education“ targets minor children.
Werner Erhard, 1970sKids as young as eight were recently enrolled at a cost of “$700 a child” in Australia to go through Landmark’s “intensive three-day workshop” reported The Sunday Times.
40 elementary school children were signed up this month in Perth for the supposedly “life-changing” LGAT based upon the teachings of a former used car salesman ”Jack” Rosenberg, who later changed his name to Werner Erhard.
Erhard had no educational or counseling credentials to guide him, but rather his personal experience dabbling in fringe self-improvement groups like Scientology.
He created a company during the 1970s called “est” (Erhard Seminar Training) that presented an initial introductory program called The Forum.
Est was reportedly sold in 1992 and was subsequently renamed “Landmark Education.” Erhard’s brother Harry Rosenberg and his sister now run the private for-profit company.
Landmark turned Erhard’s concocted philosophy into LGAT gold, making millions of dollars every month in fees. The company has never been bigger or more successful since its inception.
Landmark has a formula to make even more money. First it recruits parents to take its courses and then the company gets them to enroll their kids. This can potentially cause conflict, if parents are divorced and share joint custody. A Perth policeman refused to let his ex-wife send their daughter to the LGAT.
A $avior?“It struck me as a money-making enterprise and I really thought that the three-day seminar could be quite stressful and draining,” he said. The officer also questioned why anyone would put an 8-year-old through something so “stressful or draining” referring to Landmark’s methods as “pressure-cooker teaching.”
But kids have become lucrative for Landmark, which runs programs in the US for children 8-12 and teens too.
Effectively Landmark has turned families into ”cash cows” and has successfully milked almost 2,000 kids in Australia alone.
Landmark’s programs are controversial and some have called them ”brainwashing.” The company has a long history of bad press and it garnered some more this month “down under.” Australian adolescent psychologist Michael Carr-Gregg warned parents “to be wary” of the workshop and called it an “utter waste of money.”
“If a child has a major psychological problem they should go to a fully qualified, government-accredited professional,” he said.
It is unclear what educational requirements Landmark requires or expects from its seminar leaders, who are typically neither mental health professionals, nor licensed or accountable to any government regulatory or accrediting body.
The psychologist was also concerned about “overloading children on the weekend” and he said, “sticking a kid in there for three days is pretty awful.” Yeah, a weekend is pretty awful.....just think what it does to a kid to be stuck in a program for months/years on end being subjected to it.
Greg isn’t the only doctor worried about LGATs like Landmark. Clinical psychologist Philip Cushman studied LGATs in the 1990s and published a paper after researching what he called “mass marathon training.” Cushman saw serious problems for adults, let alone children.
In his paper titled “The Politics of Transformation: Recruitment - Indoctrination Processes in a Mass Marathon Psychology Organization” Cushman says that such “training is usually based on the belief that it is a universal truth that all human beings will have problems in life until they develop deep cathartic psychological insight, experience completely their every feeling, and live only in the present moment.”
Cushman goes on to explain that ”according to this ideology all defenses are bad and must be destroyed. They shape their group exercises in order to uncover and intensify the participants’ underlying conflicts and deficits. Everyone must be exposed to these exercises; there are no exceptions. When all defenses are destroyed, they claim there is literally no limit to what each individual can accomplish.” Sound familiar?? Break 'em down to build 'em up?
What the psychologist describes is reflected in Landmark Education’s repetitious vocabulary filled with buzz words like “breakthrough,” “integrity,” “transformation” and “completion” that become a kind of “loaded language” for its graduates.
Landmark’s spokesperson told the press in Perth that the LGAT enabled children to “gain clarity” and “examine their lives in a way, which leaves them empowered,” which gives them “a new freedom in life…[for] powerfully facing…risks and challenges…”
Cushman pointed out more than a dozen serious problems that frequently pop up wit LGAT groups like Landmark.
1. They lack adequate participant-selection criteria.
2. They lack reliable norms, supervision, and adequate training for leaders.
3. They lack clearly defined responsibility.
4. They sometimes foster pseudoauthenticity and pseudoreality.
5. They sometimes foster inappropriate patterns of relationships.
6. They sometimes ignore the necessity and utility of ego defenses.
7. They sometimes teach the covert value of total exposure instead of valuing personal differences.
8. They sometimes foster impulsive personality styles and behavioral strategies.
9. They sometimes devalue critical thinking in favor of “experiencing” without self-analysis or reflection.
10. They sometimes ignore stated goals, misrepresent their actual techniques, and obfuscate their real agenda.
11. They sometimes focus too much on structural self-awareness techniques and misplace the goal of democratic education; as a result participants may learn more about themselves and less about group process.
12. They pay inadequate attention to decisions regarding time limitations. This may lead to increased pressure on some participants to unconsciously “fabricate” a cure.
13. They fail to adequately consider the “psychonoxious” or deleterious effects of group participation (or] adverse countertransference reactions. Ya think??
Cushman warns specifically ”as a result, participants and leaders may unconsciously distort their feelings and responses when reporting to researchers about the group or recruiting for future groups. This might result in a deceptive ‘oversell’ that could undermine informed consent and lead to unrealistic regressive expectations in new recruits, the specific type of problems that have been found to lead to psychological casualties.”
Landmark’s long history of personal injury lawsuits goes back to its old “est” days.
Many participants claimed they were hurt by Landmark and some sued.
In fact, Landmark is so concerned about legal liability that it now requires participants to sign a waiver, whereby they cannot take the company to court before a jury, but instead must submit to “binding arbitration.” Essentially, this acts as “poison pill” to fend off litigation. Does this sound like something that an 8 to 12-year-old child or teen should be involved in? Path to 'salvation'?Landmark is good at persuading people that its courses are positive and that they somehow produce benefits.
In polling gathered through surveys often sponsored and/or paid for by the company, a high percentage of its graduates are convinced that they benefited in some way from attending the LGAT.
However, these are subjective responses about how participants feel, not objective results that have been scientifically measured.
Ding, ding, ding!!!!!!!^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Should parents and the general public be wary? Is there something potentially unsafe about an LGAT like Landmark?
According to Cushman’s research LGATs can become “dangerous” when they demonstrates the following criteria:
1. Leaders [have] rigid, unbending beliefs about what participants should experience and believe, how they should behave in the group and when they should change.
2. Leaders [have] no sense of differential diagnosis and assessment skills, valued cathartic emotional breakthroughs as the ultimate therapeutic experience, and sadistically pressed to create or force a breakthrough in every participant.
3. Leaders [have] an evangelical system of belief that was the one single pathway to salvation.
4. Leaders [are] true believers and sealed their doctrine off from discomforting data or disquieting results and tended to discount a poor result by, “blaming the victim.”
Landmark’s own training manuals for its Forum Supervisors states, “a Landmark ‘Forum Supervisor’ needs to be an s.o.b. for impeccability. You need to give up a concern for being liked…Be a destroyer…” and “Don’t ever let people move or stand up or talk before you have declared the start of the break. Don’t ever let stuff like that go by. Ever, ever, ever.”
Landmark’s own warnings and disclaimers in its application for the Landmark Forum states, “…people will from time to time cry or experience headaches, tiredness, nausea, confusion, disappointment, feelings of anxiety, uncertainty, and hopelessness. Some participants may find the Program physically, mentally, and emotionally stressful.”
In an article titled “Drive-thru Deliverance“ a Forum leader reportedly told participants “Anything you want in life is possible that you invent as a possibility and enroll others in your having gotten.”
Those attending the Forum in Phoenix asked “why the rules [were] so rigid”?
They were told that “transformation” required following rules, and they soon learned that those that broke the rules might be humiliated and labeled as “uncoachable.”
Werner Erhard the seminar guru that concocted this LGAT claimed that he received a revelation while driving on a California freeway in 1971, he realized that he knew nothing. And the instant he realized that he knew nothing, he then realized he knew everything, and everything was good.
Landmark teaches a philosophy that becomes a belief system for its adherents, and some seem to consider it their “salvation.”
-
Aaahm, Anne, you forgot to mention the article was written by a guy who kidnapped an 18 year old kid and held him in a room for 5 days, demanded money from the boys parents. He handcuffed him and placed duct tape over the boys mouth so that he couldn’t talk or scream for help. The boy was abused and denied privacy.
He was successfully sued and lost everything. He now writes articles for fringe newspapers who will pay him for his fiction.
You will also notice the website this article was posted on is http://www.cultnews.com (http://www.cultnews.com)
So this guy and what he does is okay with you? Abuse is okay as long as it is for a cause you approve of?
Article Link (http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jason_Scott_case)
Scott struggled, but was held down and handcuffed by the three men, gagged with duct tape from ear to ear, and had his ankles tied with rope. As he lay face down and with his cuffed hands beneath his body, one of the men, weighing 300 pounds, sat on top of his back. Scott's legs, upper body and back had sustained multiple bruises and abrasions from being dragged to the van across stairs, floors and a patio.
Scott was driven to a beach cottage, where the rope around his ankles was loosened sufficiently to enable him to make steps. Ross and his partners walked him into the house, one of the men leading him on a nylon leash, another holding his handcuffs. Ross and his partners had made the house a virtual prison; the windows were covered with thick nylon straps forming a mesh, to prevent escape. The two doors to the room where he was held were guarded. His captors also took his shoes and fitted the room with motion detectors. According to Shupe and Darnell's (2006) account of court testimony, Scott demanded that he be allowed to leave, and asked Ross whether he would try to make him change his religious beliefs. Ross was said to have replied that that was what he was paid to do. When Scott threatened Ross with criminal prosecution, Ross was said to have threatened Scott that he would handcuff him to the bed frame.
Scott testified that he then endured five days of derogatory comments about himself, his beliefs, his girlfriend and his pastor, and diatribes by Ross about the ways in which Christianity and conservative Protestantism were wrong. He was intimidated, forced to watch videos on cults and told his church was just the same. He said he was watched 24 hours a day. On every visit to the bathroom, he was accompanied by at least two men. Every day, Ross argued with Scott about matters of religion, without giving him a chance to say anything in return, often tapping him or hitting him on the head to underscore his points while Scott was being restrained or closely watched. Scott was told that he would only regain his liberty once the deprogramming had been concluded successfully and he had given up his beliefs.
After four days, Scott began to pretend that he had changed his mind, feigning tears and remorse, in the hope that this would in due course give him a chance to escape The final day of his imprisonment he spent watching films on New Age religions and channeling, even though neither are related to Pentecostalism. Scott's plan ultimately worked; Ross, pleased with the apparent success of the deprogramming session, proposed that they all went out to meet with Scott's family for a celebratory dinner. In the restaurant, Scott was allowed to go the men's room by himself; he ran out and called the police, who arrested Ross and his companions on suspicion of unlawful imprisonment. Initially, the charges were dismissed.
-
Aaahm, Anne, you forgot to mention the article was written by a guy who kidnapped an 18 year old kid and held him in a room for 5 days, demanded money from the boys parents. He handcuffed him and placed duct tape over the boys mouth so that he couldn’t talk or scream for help. The boy was abused and denied privacy.
He was successfully sued and lost everything. He now writes articles for fringe newspapers who will pay him for his fiction.
Wow....that's horrible. Doesn't negate what the article says though.
You will also notice the website this article was posted on is http://www.cultnews.com (http://www.cultnews.com)
Why, yes. Yes it is. Because that's where I went to find it. ::)
So this guy and what he does is okay with you? Abuse is okay as long as it is for a cause you approve of?
You just can't help putting words in other peoples' mouths, can you?
-
Some pertinent info for the piece copied out in the OP:
Kids trained by Landmark Education, is it "brainwashing" or their "salvation"? (http://http://www.cultnews.com/?p=2075)
Posted in Landmark Education at 2:59 pm by Rick Ross
(http://http://www.cultnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/06/werner21.jpeg)
Werner Erhard, 1970s
<snip snip>
(http://http://www.cultnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/06/werner.jpeg)
A $avior?
[/list]
-
Wow....that's horrible. Doesn't negate what the article says though.
Well, actually it does. But I am sure the followers of the website like his stuff or they wouldn't be paying him for it.
So this guy and what he does is okay with you? Abuse is okay as long as it is for a cause you approve of?
You just can't help putting words in other peoples' mouths, can you?
Again, you should slow down and not jump to conclusions... you will notice there are question marks at the end of each sentence.
...
-
Wow....that's horrible. Doesn't negate what the article says though.
Well, actually it does.
I'm sure it does in your eyes, but back here in reality....uh, no.
-
So then, you approve of using LGATs on supposedly troubled teens?
-
Encounter groups?
Confrontational "Therapy"?
Whooter, I haven t been able to get into many conversations with ya, because I don t know anything about the programs that you are talking about..
But do you approve of confrontational therapy, and encounter groups?
Because if you do, I can write an article right here, and I never kidnapped anybody.. besides even if I had, the logic will be too solid for you to refute it without being full of shit..
Paul
-
Kids as young as eight were recently enrolled at a cost of "$700 a child" in Australia to go through Landmark's "intensive three-day workshop" reported The Sunday Times.
Here's that article referred to in the OP:
-------------- • -------------- • --------------
Stress fear in $700 child forum (http://http://www.rickross.com/reference/landmark/landmark216.html)
WA children as young as eight who attend "life-changing" coaching sessions by a controversial US company could have difficulty with their schoolwork afterwards, according to experts.
The Sunday Times, Australia
June 11, 2006
By Peta Hellard
Landmark Education, a multi-million dollar corporation based in San Francisco, is charging families $700 a child to attend its Forum for Young People, which it claims creates "breakthrough results".
About 40 WA children aged from eight to 12 are enrolled in the intensive three-day workshop, which will be held in Perth in August.
The course will see children skip school on a Friday, working from 9am to 6pm for three days straight over the weekend and having to complete assignments during lunchbreaks and for homework, then begin a full school week on the Monday.
WA child development and education experts are concerned about the intensive hours of the course and about children being taken out of school for a day to attend the high-cost forum.
Adolescent psychologist Michael Carr-Gregg urged parents to be wary of dipping into their family budget to send children to the course – which costs more than $230 a day.
"The personal-development material being taught in WA schools is perfectly adequate so I would regard this (course) with enormous scepticism and as a complete and utter waste of money," Dr Carr-Gregg said.
"If a child has a major psychological problem they should go to a fully qualified, government-accredited professional, rather than some 'you beaut' system imported from America."
Association of Independent Schools of WA deputy executive director Valerie Gould said that without a regular weekend break to relax, children would likely be tired and distracted during lessons in the ensuing days.
"Overloading children on the weekend could make them less able to deal with the following week at school," she said.
"I think sticking a kid in there for three days is pretty awful. The only legitimate reasons parents should take children out of school is for a medical reason or urgent family business."
Landmark Education spokeswoman Deb Beroset said the organisation condoned parents taking their children out of school for a day so the youngsters could attend the course.
"We trust parents to make the appropriate choices for their children," Ms Beroset said.
"The schedule has been reviewed by our health and education professional advisers to their approval."
Course material says the program enables children to "gain clarity" and "examine their lives in a way which leaves them empowered", giving them "a new freedom in life".
Organisers also claim the course can result in breakthroughs in several areas, including "seeing rules and agreements as a way to have life work", "generating excellence in school" and "powerfully facing the risks and challenges of life".
A WA police officer told The Sunday Times that he was concerned after his former wife sought the required consent from him for their daughter to attend the course in Perth.
The officer, who did not want to be named, said after researching the group on the internet, he declined to give permission.
"It struck me as a money-making enterprise and I really thought that the three-day seminar could be quite stressful and draining," he said.
"An eight-year-old shouldn't be doing anything more stressful or draining than a times table or spelling test."
Adrian van Leen – director of Concerned Christian Growth Ministries, a WA organisation that investigates cult and other groups – said parents should think twice about allowing their children to participate.
"Children should be learning from general life experiences and growth rather than an abbreviated, pressure-cooker teaching course," he said.
Landmark Education's US-based legal counsel Art Schreiber said parents should not be concerned about their children taking part.
"There is nothing cult-like or religious about our programs," he said.
"Landmark Education is an international training and development company that offers a unique educational program that creates breakthrough results for people and organisations."
Previously known as Est, Landmark Education was founded in 1971 by Werner Erhard, a former used-car and door-to-door encyclopedia salesman, after he quit Scientology.
Like other US direct-marketing companies, it relies on word-of-mouth for promotion and recruitment of new clients.
Landmark Education has grown to become a worldwide giant, with courses offered in 140 cities through 52 offices across 23 countries. It made a total revenue of $100 million in 2005, with $9 million of that coming from its Australian arm.
Only children of people who have completed at least one of Landmark Education's adult courses are allowed to be enrolled in the course.
Ms Beroset said since the children's course was launched in Australia 12 years ago, 1940 children had participated.
Since 2000 when it was first held in its Hay St, Perth, office, 286 WA children have taken part.
Landmark Education's Perth office refused to make any comment to The Sunday Times about its upcoming course, referring all inquiries to its head office in the US.
# #
-
So then, you approve of using LGATs on supposedly troubled teens?
See, now when someone asks "you" a question you get all defensive and accuse them of putting words in your mouth. I dont see it that way. Questions are a way of getting answers, initiating discussions and gaining insight.
...
-
So then, you approve of using LGATs on supposedly troubled teens?
See, now when someone asks "you" a question you get all defensive and accuse them of putting words in your mouth. I dont see it that way. Questions are a way of getting answers, initiating discussions and gaining insight.
Jesus fucking christ, you are tedious. Do you approve of using LGATs on supposedly troubled teens?
Now, no deflection, no derailing.......answer the fucking question.
-
So then, you approve of using LGATs on supposedly troubled teens?
See, now when someone asks "you" a question you get all defensive and accuse them of putting words in your mouth. I dont see it that way. Questions are a way of getting answers, initiating discussions and gaining insight.
Jesus fucking christ, you are tedious. Do you approve of using LGATs on supposedly troubled teens?
Now, no deflection, no derailing.......answer the fucking question.
Calm down, Anne. You seem to have this control issue where you want to tell others what to do. See, when I asked you 2 questions you got defensive and accused me of putting words in your mouth. I pointed out your error and then you refused to answer the questions. So slow down and re-read the post and answer my questions then I will address yours. Lets keep the same standard for everyone.
...
-
Calm down, Anne. You seem to have this control issue where you want to tell others what to do. See, when I asked you 2 questions you got defensive and accused me of putting words in your mouth. I pointed out your error and then you refused to answer the questions. So slow down and re-read the post and answer my questions then I will address yours. Lets keep the same standard for everyone.
Jesus fucking christ, you are tedious. Do you approve of using LGATs on supposedly troubled teens?
Now, no deflection, no derailing.......answer the fucking question.
-
Calm down, Anne. You seem to have this control issue where you want to tell others what to do. See, when I asked you 2 questions you got defensive and accused me of putting words in your mouth. I pointed out your error and then you refused to answer the questions. So slow down and re-read the post and answer my questions then I will address yours. Lets keep the same standard for everyone.
Jesus fucking christ, you are tedious. Do you approve of using LGATs on supposedly troubled teens?
Now, no deflection, no derailing.......answer the fucking question.
Calm down, Anne. You seem to have this control issue where you want to tell others what to do. See, when I asked you 2 questions you got defensive and accused me of putting words in your mouth. I pointed out your error and then you refused to answer the questions. So slow down and re-read the post and answer my questions then I will address yours. Lets keep the same standard for everyone.
...
-
Calm down, Anne. You seem to have this control issue where you want to tell others what to do. See, when I asked you 2 questions you got defensive and accused me of putting words in your mouth. I pointed out your error and then you refused to answer the questions. So slow down and re-read the post and answer my questions then I will address yours. Lets keep the same standard for everyone.
Jesus fucking christ, you are tedious. Do you approve of using LGATs on supposedly troubled teens?
Now, no deflection, no derailing.......answer the fucking question.
Calm down, Anne. You seem to have this control issue where you want to tell others what to do. See, when I asked you 2 questions you got defensive and accused me of putting words in your mouth. I pointed out your error and then you refused to answer the questions. So slow down and re-read the post and answer my questions then I will address yours. Lets keep the same standard for everyone.
...
'sawright Whooter.....we can all see that you can't/won't answer. If you do, you either admit that we've been right all along or you admit that you approve of using these techniques on children. You lose either way, so you refuse to answer. Just like you've been avoiding Awake's Double Bind thread. viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30423 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30423)
-
Calm down, Anne. You seem to have this control issue where you want to tell others what to do. See, when I asked you 2 questions you got defensive and accused me of putting words in your mouth. I pointed out your error and then you refused to answer the questions. So slow down and re-read the post and answer my questions then I will address yours. Lets keep the same standard for everyone.
Jesus fucking christ, you are tedious. Do you approve of using LGATs on supposedly troubled teens?
Now, no deflection, no derailing.......answer the fucking question.
Calm down, Anne. You seem to have this control issue where you want to tell others what to do. See, when I asked you 2 questions you got defensive and accused me of putting words in your mouth. I pointed out your error and then you refused to answer the questions. So slow down and re-read the post and answer my questions then I will address yours. Lets keep the same standard for everyone.
...
'sawright Whooter.....we can all see that you can't/won't answer. If you do, you either admit that we've been right all along or you admit that you approve of using these techniques on children. You lose either way, so you refuse to answer.
Lots of high drama for you today. So in keeping with an even standard.... Lets also conclude, by your silence to my questions, Anne, that you approve of abusing children as long as it is for a cause that you believe in and you also admit follow the advice of and supporting someone who kidnaps and abuses kids for ransom.
...
-
Lots of high drama for you today. So in keeping with an even standard.... Lets also conclude, by your silence to my questions, Anne, that you approve of abusing children as long as it is for a cause that you believe in and you also admit follow the advice of and supporting someone who kidnaps and abuses kids for ransom.
No, I said it's horrible what happened to that boy...and it is. I guess Ross was attempting to "deprogram" the kid, which I would never condone no matter what. That would be using the "end justifies the means" mentality that programs are so fond of. If the kid voluntarily joined the cult....his choice, so be it. No amount of "deprogramming" against his will is going to do any good, and could cause greater harm. Primum non nocere.
So, gonna still avoid the question about using LGATs on kids? Still gonna avoid Awake's thread on the Double Bind?
-
Well.. anymore roadblocks or has Anne earned an answer?
Also, I do not approve of or support that author.. In fact, I don t give a flying fuck about him.
Do I get an answer?
Paul
Moment of truth Whooter.... :jamin:
-
Lots of high drama for you today. So in keeping with an even standard.... Lets also conclude, by your silence to my questions, Anne, that you approve of abusing children as long as it is for a cause that you believe in and you also admit follow the advice of and supporting someone who kidnaps and abuses kids for ransom.
No, I said it's horrible what happened to that boy...and it is. I guess Ross was attempting to "deprogram" the kid, which I would never condone no matter what. That would be using the "end justifies the means" mentality that programs are so fond of. If the kid voluntarily joined the cult....his choice, so be it. No amount of "deprogramming" against his will is going to do any good, and could cause greater harm. Primum non nocere.
So, gonna still avoid the question about using LGATs on kids? Still gonna avoid Awake's thread on the Double Bind?
So a guy kidnaps a kid, holds him for 5 days, asks for money from his parents and abuses him and you view it as a mistake in judgment but still follow this guys thinking and advice. Do you think many here, including yourself, would be as tolerant if the kid was taken to be placed in a program if the intentions were good?
You dont have to answer, just making a point.
Do you approve of using LGATs on supposedly troubled teens?
No I dont, unless it is a seminar that they sign up for themselves.
...
-
Lots of high drama for you today. So in keeping with an even standard.... Lets also conclude, by your silence to my questions, Anne, that you approve of abusing children as long as it is for a cause that you believe in and you also admit follow the advice of and supporting someone who kidnaps and abuses kids for ransom.
No, I said it's horrible what happened to that boy...and it is. I guess Ross was attempting to "deprogram" the kid, which I would never condone no matter what. That would be using the "end justifies the means" mentality that programs are so fond of. If the kid voluntarily joined the cult....his choice, so be it. No amount of "deprogramming" against his will is going to do any good, and could cause greater harm. Primum non nocere.
So, gonna still avoid the question about using LGATs on kids? Still gonna avoid Awake's thread on the Double Bind?
So a guy kidnaps a kid, holds him for 5 days, asks for money from his parents and abuses him and you view it as a mistake in judgment
Did I say it was a "mistake in judgment"? No, I said it was horrible. Does it mean that everything he's ever written ever, ever in his entire life is all wrong, wrong, wrong? No, of course not. It does mean that his method of deprogramming is wrong, wrong, wrong and should never be used on anyone. The same way that sometimes programs have decent intentions, but their methods are wrong, wrong, wrong and should never be used on anyone, especially children.
but still follow this guys thinking and advice. Do you think many here, including yourself, would be as tolerant if the kid was taken to be placed in a program if the intentions were good?
You dont have to answer, just making a point.
Your point being an attempt to distort and discredit what I said.
Do you approve of using LGATs on supposedly troubled teens?
No I dont, unless it is a seminar that they sign up for themselves.
You do realize that Aspen, WWASPS etc. use the LGAT-type tactics, no? And that the kids have no choice but to participate...you do realize this, right?
You don't have to answer, just making a point.
-
You do realize Walmart, and other corporations use LGAT? They are not forced they could quit their job, but it works. It works in the military as well, but in treatment programs for adolescents the idea is to break down their old ideas of self destruction and build a new foundation that they can start a new sober life with. This is not a bad thing at all. By the way, you do know that kids in treatment programs do have the option of not participating? But then they will not progress in the treatment program, but the teens always have a right to refuse. What if a kid refuses to speak, how would the force someone to reveal things about themselves, etc? There is a lot of misinformation in this thread, as usual.
-
You do realize Walmart, and other corporations use LGAT? They are not forced they could quit their job, but it works.
What does it do?
It works in the military as well, but in treatment programs for adolescents the idea is to break down their old ideas of self destruction and build a new foundation that they can start a new sober life with. This is not a bad thing at all.
Yes, it is. It's a very bad thing.
By the way, you do know that kids in treatment programs do have the option of not participating? But then they will not progress in the treatment program, but the teens always have a right to refuse.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Oh, wait....you're serious. Wow. Some choice.
What if a kid refuses to speak, how would the force someone to reveal things about themselves, etc?
But then they will not progress in the treatment program,
There is a lot of misinformation in this thread, as usual.
I know! I wish Whooter would stop!
-
Did I say it was a "mistake in judgment"? No, I said it was horrible. Does it mean that everything he's ever written ever, ever in his entire life is all wrong, wrong, wrong? No, of course not. It does mean that his method of deprogramming is wrong, wrong, wrong and should never be used on anyone. The same way that sometimes programs have decent intentions, but their methods are wrong, wrong, wrong and should never be used on anyone, especially children.
But you don’t view him as the scum of the earth because of it. So if a guy that is capable of doing that to a child gets a pass from you why are you so tough on these escort agencies who transport kids for good reason or the 300 pound staff member who sat on the child and killed him by accident and numerous others who have done way less than that?
I think ( my opinion) the answer to the question is that you agree with this guys views and therefore turn a blind eye to his failings and short comings. If this had been a program owner you would never consider his point of view or let him off the hook for what he did to an innocent child.
...
-
What does it do?
It helps people shed their destructive self beliefs and adopt new and healthy ideas and system of dealing with their own problems. All the while with a support of a group of people who have the same goal, which makes it even more effective.
Oh, wait....you're serious. Wow. Some choice.
Yes I'm serious. It's not possible to force somebody to talk about things they don't want to talk about. They can just refuse all attempts to help them, and then maybe they can find fornits and post about how they were abused, etc.
-
Yes I'm serious. It's not possible to force somebody to talk about things they don't want to talk about. They can just refuse all attempts to help them, and then maybe they can find fornits and post about how they were abused, etc.
No, but they can hold their life hostage if the kids don't perform to their standards, which is exactly what happens. I had only drank and smoked pot a couple of times before going in Straight, but after being in there 6 months or so and being screamed at and humiliated and berated because I wasn't "being honest" about my drug use....I started to make shit up. Lo and behold, I started to progress. I received all the "lovebombs" they could throw at me because I was being "honest"...never mind that everything I was saying was a complete lie...it was what they wanted to hear and they could then run to my parents and say, "See?.....we told you she had a problem with drugs". How is that helpful to anyone?
-
You do realize that Aspen, WWASPS etc. use the LGAT-type tactics, no? And that the kids have no choice but to participate...you do realize this, right?
You don't have to answer, just making a point.
Yes, I believe they use similar tactics in their model. There is nothing wrong with that. If the child was not at-risk or a troubled teen then the child should submit him/herself to an LGAT only if they wanted to.
...
-
You do realize that Aspen, WWASPS etc. use the LGAT-type tactics, no? And that the kids have no choice but to participate...you do realize this, right?
You don't have to answer, just making a point.
Yes, I believe they use similar tactics in their model. There is nothing wrong with that. If the child was not at-risk or a troubled teen then the child should submit him/herself to an LGAT only if they wanted to.
...
Who,
I may be wrong in thinking that you approve of them, but aren’t Aspen programs a part of those programs you defend?
Wasn’t Mount Bachelor Academy (http://http://www.livecitizen.com/2009/11/investigation-finds-abuse-at-mba/) an Aspen program that was ordered to be closed based on DHS findings? I bring it up because it seems a most poignant example of programs subjecting kids to degrading methods.
The lap dances in group reported by children at MBA seem like recent example of how the attack therapy origins of the industry that inspired humiliating “LEs” were blurred into the degrading psychodramas like “Life Steps” that have played out in many programs. It seems that this industry is still a long way from disentangling themselves from that backward thinking that hurting or humiliating their charges is acceptable if done under a therapeutic pretext.
Just as there was no validity to the benefits of breaking people through Synanon style Game tactics and calling it a breakthrough when the individual broke…there is no therapeutic value in commanding children to perform lap dances in groups, wouldn’t you agree?
-
You do realize that Aspen, WWASPS etc. use the LGAT-type tactics, no? And that the kids have no choice but to participate...you do realize this, right?
You don't have to answer, just making a point.
Yes, I believe they use similar tactics in their model. There is nothing wrong with that. If the child was not at-risk or a troubled teen then the child should submit him/herself to an LGAT only if they wanted to.
Wait, what? So, I'm asking for clarification purposes because I'm genuinely confused by your post.....I asked you if you approved of using LGAT-type tactics on supposedly troubled teens and you responded...
No I dont, unless it is a seminar that they sign up for themselves.
But we're talking about programs for troubled teens that you agree use similar tactics ....
Yes, I believe they use similar tactics in their model
. and ....
There is nothing wrong with that. If the child was not at-risk or a troubled teen then the child should submit him/herself to an LGAT only if they wanted to.
The kids are, according to you, in programs because they're troubled.....you don't think LGATs should be used on troubled kids but you approve of programs' use of the tactics on kids? I'm confused.
-
You do realize that Aspen, WWASPS etc. use the LGAT-type tactics, no? And that the kids have no choice but to participate...you do realize this, right?
You don't have to answer, just making a point.
Yes, I believe they use similar tactics in their model. There is nothing wrong with that. If the child was not at-risk or a troubled teen then the child should submit him/herself to an LGAT only if they wanted to.
Who decides who is an "at-risk" or "troubled teen?" Sometimes those labels can be pretty skewed according to parental perspective!
Personally, I don't think these methods should be utilized on anyone who doesn't have a fully formed self-identity, which certainly includes all kids.
-
LGATs are dangerous, especially if it's forced upon someone. I would never voluntarily attend one, but if an adult thinks they can glean some special knowledge from it, fine.....go right ahead. Forcing that kind of emotional intrusion onto a child, especially one that may be troubled to begin with, is deplorable.
Citation please? This is what you asked me for when I said LGAT work and are effective, I have no proof but I suspect neither do you. Which makes it my word against yours, or more accurately the word of those who have been through LGAT's and liked it, and those who go through LGAT and think it is something dangerous and harmful. Judging by the slim minority of participants that seem interested in forums like this and websites like the anti cult one I would hypothesize that perhaps many more people are satisfied with them than not. Let's say you take a survey of people leaving an LGAT, even one that was 'forced' upon troubled teens. If you took a poll and said, how many of you thought this was helpful/beneficial versus negative/harmful, which answer do you think would be chosen more often? I think it would be the first option and I think most people would conclude, based on their experiences and how small the minority complaint is, that they are safe and effective. I would even say there are more people who have a very great experience than people who would vote for harmful, LGAT have the power to change people's lives and in a lot of ways it's almost spiritual, and life changing. LGAT is a great thing when done right, but of course a slim minority will have issues and this is expected in all facets of life, nothing is perfect unfortunately. The internet has a way of magnifying these slim minorities of all subjects further complicating the truth.
-
You do realize that Aspen, WWASPS etc. use the LGAT-type tactics, no? And that the kids have no choice but to participate...you do realize this, right?
You don't have to answer, just making a point.
Yes, I believe they use similar tactics in their model. There is nothing wrong with that. If the child was not at-risk or a troubled teen then the child should submit him/herself to an LGAT only if they wanted to.
Wait, what? So, I'm asking for clarification purposes because I'm genuinely confused by your post.....I asked you if you approved of using LGAT-type tactics on supposedly troubled teens and you responded...
No I dont, unless it is a seminar that they sign up for themselves.
But we're talking about programs for troubled teens that you agree use similar tactics ....
Yes, I believe they use similar tactics in their model
. and ....
There is nothing wrong with that. If the child was not at-risk or a troubled teen then the child should submit him/herself to an LGAT only if they wanted to.
The kids are, according to you, in programs because they're troubled.....you don't think LGATs should be used on troubled kids but you approve of programs' use of the tactics on kids? I'm confused.
Well if the kids are supposedly (mistakenly believed to be) troubled teens then I feel they should only be exposed to an LGAT at their own choosing. The kids in programs (who are troubled teens) are exposed to some of the nuances of LGAT on a watered down level. I dont see this as being detrimental to them at all.
...
-
You do realize that Aspen, WWASPS etc. use the LGAT-type tactics, no? And that the kids have no choice but to participate...you do realize this, right?
You don't have to answer, just making a point.
Yes, I believe they use similar tactics in their model. There is nothing wrong with that. If the child was not at-risk or a troubled teen then the child should submit him/herself to an LGAT only if they wanted to.
Wait, what? So, I'm asking for clarification purposes because I'm genuinely confused by your post.....I asked you if you approved of using LGAT-type tactics on supposedly troubled teens and you responded...
No I dont, unless it is a seminar that they sign up for themselves.
But we're talking about programs for troubled teens that you agree use similar tactics ....
Yes, I believe they use similar tactics in their model
and ....
There is nothing wrong with that. If the child was not at-risk or a troubled teen then the child should submit him/herself to an LGAT only if they wanted to.
The kids are, according to you, in programs because they're troubled.....you don't think LGATs should be used on troubled kids but you approve of programs' use of the tactics on kids? I'm confused.
Well if the kids are supposedly (mistakenly believed to be) troubled teens then I feel they should only be exposed to an LGAT at their own choosing. The kids in programs (who are troubled teens) are exposed to some of the nuances of LGAT on a watered down level. I dont see this as being detrimental to them at all.
I wouldn't exactly call it "watered down;" I'd call it ramped up. Unlike your standard LGAT which could be a weekend, or a series of weekends, or an 8-day shebang day-in/day-out like the Hoffman Quadrinity Process (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=26801), kids are in program for much longer periods of time.
-
Yes I'm serious. It's not possible to force somebody to talk about things they don't want to talk about. They can just refuse all attempts to help them, and then maybe they can find fornits and post about how they were abused, etc.
No, but they can hold their life hostage if the kids don't perform to their standards, which is exactly what happens. I had only drank and smoked pot a couple of times before going in Straight, but after being in there 6 months or so and being screamed at and humiliated and berated because I wasn't "being honest" about my drug use....I started to make shit up. Lo and behold, I started to progress. I received all the "lovebombs" they could throw at me because I was being "honest"...never mind that everything I was saying was a complete lie...it was what they wanted to hear and they could then run to my parents and say, "See?.....we told you she had a problem with drugs". How is that helpful to anyone?
Anne Jesus Christ you are not still in the program, we are not talking about your experiences. No one is being forced to do anything in todays TTI and if it happens today it is a rouge staff member, because it is definitely not the norm today.
This is what this is all about here on fornits, reliving Antigens, Psys, Ursus, Annes, Felices, wannabe Che's, Joels, DJ's, Noneya's, SEKTO's, Inculcate's, Lil Johnny's ect......experiences from as far back as the 70's. This is where most of you operate from, psychologically. Makes it very difficult to have a balanced/unbiased conversation for any length of time.
-
Bennison, Not that you’re educable, but check out what was happening waaay back in 2009 and STFU.
http://www.oregonlive.com/news/index.ss ... igati.html (http://www.oregonlive.com/news/index.ssf/2009/04/state_conducts_two_investigati.html)
http://kohd.com/news/local/147574 (http://kohd.com/news/local/147574)
http://www.cafety.org/solutions-and-suc ... my-closing (http://www.cafety.org/solutions-and-successes/791-aspen-education-group-mount-bachelor-academy-closing)
-
LGATs are dangerous, especially if it's forced upon someone. I would never voluntarily attend one, but if an adult thinks they can glean some special knowledge from it, fine.....go right ahead. Forcing that kind of emotional intrusion onto a child, especially one that may be troubled to begin with, is deplorable.
Citation please? This is what you asked me for when I said LGAT work and are effective, I have no proof but I suspect neither do you. Which makes it my word against yours, or more accurately the word of those who have been through LGAT's and liked it, and those who go through LGAT and think it is something dangerous and harmful. Judging by the slim minority of participants that seem interested in forums like this and websites like the anti cult one I would hypothesize that perhaps many more people are satisfied with them than not. Let's say you take a survey of people leaving an LGAT, even one that was 'forced' upon troubled teens. If you took a poll and said, how many of you thought this was helpful/beneficial versus negative/harmful, which answer do you think would be chosen more often? I think it would be the first option and I think most people would conclude, based on their experiences and how small the minority complaint is, that they are safe and effective. I would even say there are more people who have a very great experience than people who would vote for harmful, LGAT have the power to change people's lives and in a lot of ways it's almost spiritual, and life changing. LGAT is a great thing when done right, but of course a slim minority will have issues and this is expected in all facets of life, nothing is perfect unfortunately. The internet has a way of magnifying these slim minorities of all subjects further complicating the truth.
Here's one:
-------------- • -------------- • --------------
Pathology as "Personal Growth": A Participant-Observation Study of Lifespring Training (http://http://www.culthelp.info/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=984&Itemid=12)
Psychiatry, Vol 46, August 1983
By Janice Haaken, Ph.D. and Richard Adams, Ph.D.
This paper presents an overview of a Lifespring Basic Training workshop from a psychoanalytic perspective. Basing our conclusions on a participant-observation study, we argue that the impact of the training was essentially pathological. First, in the early period of the training, ego functions were systematically undermined and regression was promoted. Second, the ideational or interpretive framework of the training was based upon regressive modes of reasoning Third, the structure and content of the training tended to stimulate early narcissistic conflicts, and defenses, which accounted for the elation and sense of heightened well-being achieved by many participants.
A major contemporary force in developing popular conceptions of the self has been the human potential movement, grounded in the premises and practice of "Third Force" psychology--humanistic psychology--which emerged in the 1950s and found increasingly widespread expression in the next two decades. The growth of the human potential movement has been both exponential and chaotic. In the realm of education and therapy it has created numerous gurus and schools and provided an array of techniques and procedures for the enhancement of personal growth. In the 1970s an effort was made by several persons, and groups to consolidate various practices into cohesive packages as training programs. These widely marketed programs, designed and organized to effect significant and positive changes in the lives of participants were first successfully initiated by Werner Erhard with est, and are now dominated by est and Lifespring. The investigation presented here focuses on the structure and processes of a Lifespring training program.
For the most part, literature which is available on "human growth" companies is limited to clinical impressions and journalistic reports of est. Clinicians have tended to focus on psychiatric risks associated with the training for some people (Kirsch and Glass 1977). Others have emphasized its efficacy as an adjunct to psychotherapy (Paul and Paul 1978). Anecdotal reports of Lifespring graduates are often enthusiastic, lending support to the organization's strong claims for the effectiveness of its training activities. Comments of graduates range from "It changed my life" to "It was extremely valuable." However, such global reports often lack specific content.
To date, there is no published material on Lifespring other than materials which are distributed by the organization. Follow up studies initiated by research associates of Lifespring Foundation suggest that the training increases "self- actualization" as measured by the Personal Orientation Inventory (Shostrom 1978). Although the Inventory provides an objective measure of the effects of the training, it poses typical scaling problems. The results are based on forced-choice questions whish restrict the range and content of responses. In addition, a response bias may be built into the scale: it is heavily laden with the language and values of the human potential movement and may merely be measuring a superficial familiarity with the training ideas. As Rosenthal (1978) pointed out in his review of empirical findings on encounter groups, participants tend to overstate, often in global terms, the extent of "personal growth" achieved.(p. 74)
The research upon which this paper is based was developed out of the need for a clearer and more detailed picture of the Lifespring phenomenon. The purpose of the paper is both descriptive and analytical. First, we describe Lifespring training: the participants and leaders, the structure of the training activities, and the techniques utilized. Second, we explain the effects during Lifespring training from a psychoanalytic perspective. We argue that although participants often experience a heightened sense of well-being as a consequence of the training, the phenomenon is essentially pathological. By pathological, we mean that the training systematically undermines ego functioning and promotes regression to the extent that reality testing is significantly impaired. This does not imply that participants suffer from lasting forms of psychopathology as a consequence of the training. The long-term effects of the training and its usefulness to participants in facing problems in living fall outside the scope of this phase of the study.
The interpretive framework adopted here is supported by several psychoanalytic premises concerning group behavior. In discussing the relationship between ego functions and group behavior, Freud noted that "intensification of the affects and the inhibition of the intellect" characterized "primitive groups" (1959 p 20). Primitive groups promote the blurring of ego boundaries and psychological merger with the group leader, who serves as an ego ideal for group members. By projecting ego and superego functions, e.g. the regulation and control of impulses, into the leader, members may express infantile aggressive and libidinal drives normally held in constraint. (Kernberg 1980 p212). This psychological state may be described as regressive in that it is reminiscent of the experience of early childhood—the oceanic experience of oneness with the all-good, protective parent who mediates between the child’s immediate needs and the external world.
Regression, however, does not inevitably imply pathology. From a psychoanalytic perspective, many healthy and adaptive forms of human activity, such as falling in love (Grunberger 1979 pp 5-6) and artistic achievement (Kris 1964 p 28), require the capacity to regress, When falling in love, one must be able to experience temporary states of psychological merger with another person and artistic achievement often involves access to impulses and irrational of primitive fantasies. In addition, the ability to work in groups or to engage in collective forms of social action requires the capacity to merge with the group ideals and group interests. The critical distinction in determining pathology in group members concerns the extent of regression – i.e., the dominance of primitive fantasies or impulses and the level of ego control maintained. By ego control, we mean the capacity for reality testing, for mobilizing adaptive defenses, for distinguishing between internal and external events, and for bringing affective states under rational control.
Many of the encounter groups of the human potential movement have been described as regressive because of their disinhibitive effects and their tendency to stress abandonment to strong emotions while disparaging reasoning and intellect (Back 1972, p 79; Schur 1976, pp48-53). The emphasis upon "getting in touch with your feelings" and "getting out of your head" may be of therapeutic value in encouraging participants to gain access to previously warded off impulses, a process which often occurs in successful forms of psychodynamic therapy. However, without an interpretive framework which reconciles affective states with objective reality and logical thought processes, such group cathartic experiences offer little opportunity for sustained therapeutic change and may, in fact, be psychologically damaging (Lieberman, Yalom, and Miles 1973 pp 167-209)
The study
The material presented in this paper is based on a participant-observation study by a psychologist and a sociologist at a Lifespring Basic Training workshop held in Seattle, Washington in 1981. Because of the uniformity of Lifespring trainings, this workshop most likely is representative of training workshops in other settings. The training took place over five days and consisted of a total of 48 hours. Participants met from approximately 6 to 12 PM on the three days before two all-day workshop sessions. In addition, a "wrap-up" session was held four days after the initial training. While participants and leaders were unaware of the research project, prior consent for the project had been obtained from the Lifespring Corporation and the fees were waived.
Our approach was consistent with usual participant-observation methods. Because of the anticipated evocative nature of the experience, measures were taken to assure both a sufficient level of experiential involvement and sufficient analytical distance. Our reactions, as participants, were understood to constitute an important phenomenological aspect of the inquiry to be carefully noted. We decided to allow some self-disclosure (to discuss "real" problems when appropriate) but to avoid disclosure in those areas of our personal lives which were too affectively loaded to allow the emotional distance compatible with researching. Thus, we sought to achieve genuine but restrained involvement to avoid either immersion in the experience, or conversely, excessive detachment. We do recognize that our decisions about how we would react make our experiences somewhat different from those of the other participants.
Although notes and taping were not allowed during training sessions, we made extensive notes during breaks and at the close of each day’s session. Our discussions following each session were taped and subsequently transcribed. Efforts were made to provide a detailed account of what had occurred and to note any discrepancies in our reactions or recall of events.
The conclusions presented here are the result of a thematic analysis of the transcribed sessions. Although the conceptual framework which investigators bring to a participant-observation study structures both the particular content and the meaning of observations, we attempted to suspend previous assumptions to the extent that this was possible. Thus, our approach to the training experience was primarily inductive in nature. For expository purposes, we have subsumed the descriptive data under the conclusions drawn from our analysis of the training.
Participants
Participants paid $350 for the Basic Training, which is the first of the three levels in the Lifespring training series. The group consisted of 68 adults ranging in age from 17 to 66 years, with and average age of approximately 35 to 40. Women slightly outnumbered men. Most participants were Caucasian; there were only a few minority group members – 1 Black and 3 Asians. The socioeconomic status of participants was for the most part middle-income. The majority were in sales positions, self-employed or housewives. A few were in professions such as teaching, engineering, medicine and dentistry. The explanation given for participation in the training included the range of complaints, which typify psychotherapy populations. Couples came to resolve marital conflicts. The younger participants, in particular, reported feelings of loneliness, social isolation or a lack of direction in life. Others said that difficulty with jobs or personal relationships brought them to the training.
Although Lifespring provided a preliminary questionnaire to screen out those who were under psychiatric treatment and emphasized that the training was educational rather than therapeutic, the promise of a rapid cure for these various complaints was unmistakably an attraction to the participants. Thus, an important motivational basis of the training was the expectation that dramatic change would occur. Most participants learned of Lifespring through the recruiting efforts of friends and family members who were Lifespring graduates. The promise of "personal growth" held out by the organizations and zealous graduates was both nonspecific and unlimited. As we waited for the workshop to begin, a high level of anticipatory excitement was created by the expectations of the participants, the mystery surrounding the training, and the laudatory comments of friends and family members who mingled with the group. As participants were finally ushered into the training room, Lifespring staff and supporters applauded enthusiastically, indicating that something quite important was about to take place.
The Leaders
The staff for the training consisted of one leader, or "trainer", who was a paid member of the Lifespring staff, and eight volunteer assistant leaders who had already completed the series of Lifespring training workshops. The trainer was a conventionally attractive man of about thirty. He was tall, dark, even-featured and meticulously attired in dressy sports coat and tie. His physical appearance projected a Madison Avenue image of success. His training in leadership and communications prior to his Lifespring training was as an IBM sales representative.
The assistant leaders were in charge of various logistical aspects of the training such as leading small group discussions and monitoring various experiential exercises. They also conducted much of the follow-up contact with participants after the training. Most of the assistants were employed in sales or managerial positions.
Diminished ego functions and regression
As with many of the encounter groups and sensitivity training workshops of the 1960s and 1970s, the structure and content of Lifespring training had a disinhibitive effect. Reasoning and intellectual processes were minimized while affective states were intensified. However, Lifespring differed from these prototypical groups by the extent to which the leaders took control of ego functions for participants. The environment was elaborately structured, much as a compulsive parent would do for a small child. During the early training sessions, chairs were meticulously arranged on rows of masking tape facing the podium, where the leader stood with large paper tablets for didactic instruction. If a chair was moved, the participant was instructed by one of the assistants to return it to the taped line. The theme song from Star Wars was played ceremoniously at the beginning of each sessions, and participants were to be seated in their chairs by the conclusion of the music. Frantic compliance to this rule was remarkable even though its purpose and the consequences of noncompliance were unclear.
The trainer began the workshop by discussing the purpose of Lifespring, writing "personal growth" and "personal awareness" in bold letters on the board. Awareness was defined as "understanding things as they are." The trainer emphasized that the answers were already within us- it was just a matter of discovering them. "Everything has always been available to you. It’s a matter of noticing it, of awareness." This nativistic approach to knowledge was dramatized by a banner across the front of the room which "grew" in size each day. The enigmatic phrase, which spanned twenty feet by the fifth day, was "What am I pretending not to know?"
Following the introduction by the trainer, the group discussed the various motives for coming to Lifespring and how to achieve "full value" from the training. The key phrases, which described the vehicle to personal growth, were "submission," "100 percent commitment," and "spontaneity".
This emphasis upon submission and total involvement required some attention to resistances--the doubts, and reservations which participants inevitably would experience. The trainer moved to a discussion of "how we avoid," drawing from the audience examples of avoidance behaviors such as forgetting, sickness, and daydreaming. The question was posed, "What stands in the way of creating maximum value for yourself?" By the end of the first evening, the trainer had explained emphatically the major contingency for achieving the expected transformation: complete submission to the Lifespring experience. By the device of identifying resistances as "ways of avoiding," participants' questions, doubts and concerns were labeled as obstacles to personal growth.
A variety of rules for "playing the Lifespring game" were then reviewed and participants were asked to stand to indicate agreement with them. While all groups, are guided by implicit or explicit rules, the Lifespring rules were notable for their emphasis upon obedience to the instructions of the trainer and their arbitrariness or lack of an apparent rationale. The effect of a prolonged discussion of the rules, which included some challenging questions by participants, was to fortify the position of the trainer as a legitimate authority who was in control and to diminish the participants' control.
Audience responses were managed in a way which reduced the ability of participants to think critically and simultaneously inflated their self-esteem. In order to speak, participants had to stand, he acknowledged by the leader and speak into a microphone. The audience was to applaud after the person finished speaking, presumably indicating support for the "risk of sharing." The experience of having to speak before a large group, hearing one's voice amplified and being rewarded with applause was undoubtedly useful for those who were fearful of public speaking. However, since the applause was mandatory, it was not an indication of the quality or coherence of participants' comments. The trainer acknowledged as valid only those audience responses which confirmed or illustrated a point being made. Over the five days, responses came increasingly to mirror the idiom of the trainer, and the applause became increasingly enthusiastic. This essentially distorted And magnified the import of what was -being said, undermining reality testing. For example, midway through the training, one participant stood and announced elatedly, "I've got it!" Considerable applause followed even though there was no explanation about what he had 'gotten."
What was rewarded by the trainer was compliance or pseudocompliance. Participants who offered critical comments or who suggested a different way of conceptualizing a problem had their statements dismissed were subjected to ridicule or were confused with paradoxical logic. The "dissenter" was generally maneuvered into some form of compliance before being permitted to sit down and receive the applause.
An example of this type of interaction occurred on the first evening after the "Trust" exercise.-' Instructions for this exercise were as follows: Participants were to mingle, and when eye contact was made with other participants, one of four comments was allowed: "I trust you ", "I don't trust you," "I don't know if I trust you,"" or "I don't care to say if I trust you." The participants were then to move on to the next person without further comment. After regrouping following the exercise, one participant challenged the implicit reasoning behind the exercise; as the exchange below indicates, his reaction was dismissed without legitimizing the rationality of the question that he raised.
JAMES: I'm not sure what this had to do with real trust. I mean, it's not an all or nothing thing-like "I trust you" or "I don't trust you." I would trust someone with my car before I would trust them with my child, depending on how well I knew the person.
TRAINER: Are you willing to consider the possibility that you don't know what trust really means?
JAMES: (Appearing confused and hesitating) Yes.
TRAINER: Thank you. You may sit down. (Audience applause)
The trainer used a variety of techniques to neutralize comments which challenged or qualified the point being made and maintained sufficient control over audience responses to assure that defiance and critical thinking were not publicly rewarded. The use of confusing "double talk" was particularly effective in disarming those who threatened to delegitimize the trainer's position. Statements such as "What you think isn't is, and what you think is isn't," or "Well, what is the answer?" were perplexing enough to cause the participant to fatter in uncertainty. The suggestion that the participant was disturbed, confused, "avoiding," or "game-playing" were other tactics used to discredit objecting participants.
As the training progressed, participants, become increasingly reliant upon the trainer to interpret reality. Defenses and the capacity for critical reasoning were undermined by both the structure of the training and the responses of the leader. Typically, a didactic session followed each experiential exercise, providing an interpretive framework for the feelings evoked. The trainer provided attributions for the heightened arousal which was generated by the exercise.
A form of exercise used repeatedly throughout the training involved highly structured interactions in pairs. Each member of the pair faced the other in the open position" (legs uncrossed, one hand placed on each leg), and eye contact was to be sustained for the entire exercise. If participants deviated from this position--for example, by breaking eye contact or crossing their legs-the assistants instructed them to resume the open position. We found that the experience of having our movements monitored throughout the five days (while being told to be spontaneous) was particularly unsettling, evoking feelings of powerlessness and dependency. The prolonged eye contact required in all pair exercises had a certain hypnotic effect in that it became increasingly difficult to withdraw from the influence of the exercise.
A number of dyadic exercises which reenacted parent-child relationships were included in the training as a means of resolving conflicts through brief, intense encounters with parent surrogates. These exercises also contributed to the regressive pull of the early phase of the training. The first involved one partner standing and assuming the position of a parent while the other gazed into his/her eyes from the perspective of childhood memory. As feelings, of infantile helplessness in relation to a powerful parent were evoked, participants displayed more childlike behavior, such as giggling and eager compliance to the trainer. Another exercise required that one partner attempt to gratify all the childhood fantasies of' the other--fantasies of what the perfect parent would have provided.
Idealational themes and regression
On the second evening during the didactic session, the ideational content of the Lifespring message was reviewed elaborately with the use of diagrams. The trainer began with a discussion of "how we respond to events." He argued that by "resisting events" or "attempting to change them," people merely rely on prior belief systems or "automatic" ways of interpreting the world. This way of responding is a reactive one which ties people to the experience of the past and to unrealistic expectations for the future. The trainer emphasized that "coming from a position of change never works," On the other hand, "submission" to events and acceptance of things as they are results In "creative choice," "awareness," "joy" and "growth." The paradox of this implicitly conservative message was that personal control was promoted through submission or surrender to the existing reality of the trainer.
The following interchange took place as one of the researchers attempted to challenge the logic of the presentation, using the language and categories provided by the trainer.
JANICE: Part of what you're saving matches my experience and part of it doesn't. I can see how in some situations conflict is made worse by reacting on the basis of rigid, unrealistic expectations. Yet. in other situations--like the women's movement or other social movements--those who resist are the ones who create change. For those who submit and back away from conflict, no change takes place. Also, beliefs can limit us but they can also sustain us at times. The belief in justice or equality, for example, can provide hope for another way of cooperating in the world. There needs to be some distinction between rational and irrational or infantile beliefs here.
TRAINER: Your problem is that you're stuck on the level of analyzing and beliefs. You're hung up on having to analyze everything.
JANICE: I thought that this was the time for that- the didactic period. Isn't that what you're doing on the board? Am I wrong? (Some audience laughter)
After the audience laughter the trainer removed his chart, displaying some irritation, and began a new chart entitled "Levels of Awareness." He started with "belief," stating that this was a low level of human awareness: he then discussed "analyzing" and "experimenting." He distinguished these three low levels of awareness, which presumably maintain the "illusion of certainty," from "experiencing and observing." which are unfettered by belief and lead to "natural knowing." By stressing that "all beliefs are arbitrary," the trainer promoted a radical devaluation of the external world. This solipsistic view of the world, which presupposes a presocial self, contributed to the general tendency of Lifespring to cultivate regressive modes of reasoning.
Although there was often an element of truth in the trainer's arguments, the extensive use of all-or-nothing categories, absolutist logic and magical thinking distorted what would other-wise have been reasonable points. Ideas were not presented as problematic beliefs which were open to scrutiny but as transcendent truth--"natural knowing." The critical eye of the participant wits turned away from tile content of the training and toward him/herself. its the source of all knowledge
Infantile omnipotence and identification with the leader
After participating in a variety of regressive exercises, Participants came increasingly to identify with the trainer and to share his power during the third and fourth days of training. Shifting from the emphasis upon submission and trust, the trainer suggested that we were totally responsible for all events, in our lives--"100 percent accountable"--including the selection of our parents. An exercise designed to illustrate the theme of "taking full responsibility" involved the use of pairs. Partners were to tell each other of an occasion when each had been victimized. Several people told stories about having been beaten by a parent as a child. We were then instructed to retell the story from a position of 100 percent accountability--in other words, how we "set things up to be that way."
This exercise transformed the infantile helplessness which participants had experienced earlier into infantile omnipotence. Many participants reported feelings of elation and expansiveness following this exercise. The level of insight gained was akin to the reasoning of a small child who has not yet cognitively overcome an egocentric view of the world--the conviction that all events emanate from the self. The subjective experience of liberation which accompanied this exercise seemed to stem from the sense of omnipotent control generated among the participants. The group was particularly vulnerable to this type of primitive reasoning because of the effects of the earlier training. The lowering of inhibitions, the extensive structuring of the environment and the undermining of critical thought combined to elicit archaic defenses such as omnipotence.
Identification with the powerful position of the trainer as a defense against infantile helplessness and dependency was made evident by the increasing reliance upon his language over the five days of training. The language of the human potential movement, which provided the "official" lexicon of Lifespring, seemed to exhaust and encompass all of human experience, e.g., "getting off automatic," "going for it," "taking risks," "taking responsibility," and "creating your own reality." These phrases took on an almost magical communicative power within the group.
As the training progressed and the trainer's words were repeated by group members, the trainer became softer in his style and more accessible to the group. His occasionally stepping down from the podium and mingling with the group allowed a greater sense of psychological merger with him. Our collective seduction was dramatically enacted on the fourth day as participants took the position of the leader on the podium and "shared" the growth which they had achieved thus far. Laura, an attractive and articulate woman of about thirty, who had been the first participant to object to a rule on the first evening, approached the microphone. Her voice trembling, she began to explain how socially isolated she had become and spoke of the barriers which she had erected to keep people at a distance. The trainer then asked if she would be willing to try an exercise in "trust." The lights were dimmed and the woman stood on a chair ready to fall backward into the arms of six men selected from the audience. As sensual music played, the trainer stood close to her, murmuring in intimate tones. Finally she allowed herself' to fall, and the men began to rock her back and forth to the music. The trainer remained close to the woman, who was now sobbing, massaging her stomach and speaking softly to her. The exercise was quite poignant, moving many participants to tears. Although the surface meaning of the exercise concerned trust, it was compelling in its libidinal and religious undertones. There had been a series of testimonials followed by the "baptismal" of a formerly recalcitrant participant. She had fully immersed herself in the experience and had finally yielded to the trainer.
The desire for merger, which is reminiscent of the security and total dependency of early childhood, has been identified in various psychological phenomena, e.g., falling in love, religious experiences, and intoxicated states. However, what we found particularly troublesome in the various trust exercises presented in Lifespring was the implied indiscriminate nature of trust. The desire for intimacy was gratified instantaneously. It appeared to matter little whether or not the object of desire was trustworthy. The emphasis was upon abandonment to an undifferentiated, unknowable other who existed as an extension of one's own needs.
An essentially solipsistic view of the world was supported by the experiential and ideational content of tile training throughout the five days. While reactions to others always contain projective themes, at Lifespring the boundary between inner and outer reality, between self and other, was constantly being obliterated by the structure of the training. This contributed to the sense of expansiveness and boundless power experienced by participants. The idea of "mirroring" was used in several exercises as a metaphor for projected reality. "What you see in others," we were told, "is a mirror of yourself."
Exercises which mobilized narcissistic defenses, i.e., feelings of inflated well-being and exaggerated personal power, were alternated with attacking exercises, which were narcissistically injurious. The latter evoked feelings of shame and worthlessness and made the group vulnerable to the judgments of the leader. One example involved a game called "Red and Black," which required the group to divide into two teams and develop strategies, based upon a set of rules, for achieving the greatest number of points. Neither team was able to recognize that the main contingency for getting the maximum number of points was that both teams succeed. Essentially, if one team lost, both lost. And both teams did lose. This exercise could have been an occasion for discussing the cultural context of competition and aspects of our society which make it difficult to identify cooperative contingencies. Instead, the trainer castigated participants, finally stating with disgust, "You all make me sick." Since the exercise was at the close of the evening, we were to go home and reflect upon what we had learned. Many participants were silent and tearful as we closed the evening session
By assuming the position of a harsh and rejecting parent, the trainer was able to mobilize infantile feelings of badness. This experience made it more likely that participants would attempt to defend against feelings of being a bad and powerless child in subsequent exercises by identifying more strongly with the leader. The tendency to identify with him in order to share in his power was particularly evident. on the morning following the Red and Black exercise as 8 or 10 participants lined up enthusiastically on the stage to give testimonials. This was the first time in the training that participants were invited to join the leader in his elevated position on the stage.
During the final two days of the training, there was a great deal of hugging and other indications of affection among participants. However, these expressions of "love for everyone" seemed to be narcissistically motivated. They were an extension of the expansive mood and feelings of power experienced by many of the participants rather than an expression of mutuality or attachment. Another group exercise, based on an assembly line model of human relations, illustrates the indiscriminate nature of intimate overtures. Participants assembled in two concentric circles, facing each other. Each facing pair was to simultaneously indicate one of four possible gestures of intimacy: no contact; a handshake; holding hands; or an embrace. After completing this brief, silent interaction, the lines shifted and new pairs were formed, repeating the procedure. Most pairs embraced so that by the conclusion of the exercise, close contact had been made among the majority of participants.
While this exercise may have been helpful for those who fear physical contact, providing a form of desensitization, it stripped such interactions of the relational context which generally gives them meaning. Instead, it became a rather compulsive, counterphobic reaching out which provided little information concerning problems of intimacy. These fleeting physical contacts were experienced as if they had profound human implications.
Pseudo self-awareness and reality testing
The events of the fifth and final day of the training provided an opportunity for participants to use what they had learned in responding to an unanticipated crisis. Following the morning break, one of the more actively involved participants, Patrick, leaped up and took the position of the trainer on the podium. Initially it appeared that Patrick was acting out against the trainer by mocking him and by ignoring rules. However, it soon became apparent that he had decompensated--his speech was incoherent, he was out of contact with reality, and he appeared to be hallucinating. The trainer approached him and told him to stop "game playing." His "other choice" was to "go to a place where they allow people to play crazy games." Patrick merely gazed vacantly at the trainer and continued to mutter Lifespring phrases. Various participants, responded by encouraging Patrick to "go for it" and "let it all out." They did not understand that he had already "let too much out." His apparently fragile defenses had been repeatedly challenged by the trainer, who hid often accused him of "bullshitting,"
When it became clear that Patrick was unable to pull himself together, the other participants were asked to leave the room. We gathered outside, initially stunned by what had transpired. Then the group coalesced into a "circle of love," initiated by several members, out of the desire to "send Patrick our energy." The group was clearly attempting to provide comfort to its members in an upsetting situation. What was remarkable was the level of denial and misinterpretation of what had occurred. The group transformed Patrick's psychotic episode into a positive experience by using the categories of reasoning provided by the training. Drawing upon the infantile omnipotence encouraged by earlier sessions, some of the participants declared that "we are going to heal Patrick-he'll feel our energy." Others commented cheerfully that "he is getting in touch with his feelings" and "whatever he chooses is right for him, it's the very best for him." After Patrick had been spirited away, the group reconvened to continue the training. What could have been an occasion for discussing what had happened, including the impact of the training on Patrick, instead stimulated an outpouring of testimonials.
Since the group's idealization of the trainer was potentially undermined by this incident, decisive defensive operations were necessary to prevent the eruption of hostility in the group. The group felt impelled to reaffirm the goodness of Lifespring and to externalize and redirect the bad feelings evoked, which were potentially directed toward the trainer. Hostility was deflected from the trainer, who received the uncontaminated affection of the group, onto one of the participants who had remained outside the "circle of love." This participant, one of the researchers, had been a symbol of resistance throughout the training by asking questions and at times disagreeing with the trainer. During one group exercise, he had been selected by half of the participants as the "least attractive" person in the group. He was offensive to many participants for being "too analytical," "rigid," and "not feeling enough."
In the wake of the morning's events, affective states were intensified and a mood of hysteria was palpable. While loving feelings were directed toward Lifespring, the hostile component of what had been evoked was now directed more intensively toward the participant- researcher. One participant stood and stated, "I've got something to say to Dick. You know, I really hate Dick!" Another participant charged, "You don't give your love, Dick. All I want, Dick, is for you to love. And you hold back your love!" When Dick explained his reactions to the events of the morning, various participants shouted out angrily, "You're coming from your head, stop analyzing, come from your heart."
Within the narcissistic framework constructed by the training, the use of infantile splitting-dividing the relational world into "all good" and "all bad" objects emerged as a dominant defense against anxiety in the group. In order for the Lifespring experience to he taken in, it needed to be idealized as an all-good object. The trainer could not. be questioned nor the content of the training challenged. Participants whose opinions deviated from the trainer's were seen as a threat to the feelings of elation and well-being enjoyed by participants. Such threats had to be actively defended against in order to preserve the fantasy of omnipotence cultivated within the training.
Conclusion
We have argued that while many participants experienced a sense of enhanced well-being as a consequence of the training, these experiences were essentially pathological. First, ego functions were systematically undermined and regression was promoted by environmental structuring, infantilizing of participants and repeated emphasis on submission and surrender. Second, the ideational or interpretive framework provided in the training was also based upon regressive modes of reasoning--the use of all-or-nothing categories, absolutist logic and magical thinking, all of which are consistent with the egocentric thinking of young children. Third, the content of the training stimulated early narcissistic conflicts and defenses, which accounts for the elation and sense of heightened well-being achieved by many participants. The devaluation of objective constraints upon a person's action promoted grandiose fantasies of unlimited power. A corollary to this devaluation of the external world wits that interactions with others lacked substance. People appeared to be interchangeable so that ephemeral, indiscriminate emotional contacts were experienced as profound and meaningful. Identification with Lifespring necessitated considerable idealization so that any threat to this experience was aggressively defended against.
Our methods had an effect on our experience of the training and on our conclusions. The Lifespring Basic training, which demands full participation and rejects the legitimacy of observation, provided a particular challenge to the participant-observation method. In the Lifespring milieu any evidence of observation became evidence for the need for further "growth," for getting away from analysis or "intellectual trips." Lack of full emotional involvement in the training thus set the authors apart from the-group and led us to experience the training differently from the rest of the participants. As a result, we are not qualified to speak from the point of view of the "average participant." We did not, to use Lifespring's words, "got the training."
However, as participant-observers, we did share some of the group's subjective experiences, particularly the extraordinary pressure to conform. In this instance, the context of participant-observation, which as Rabinow (1977) says is dictated by "observation and externality," provided us with the opportunity to note the lengths to which the trainer was willing to go in attempting to achieve the required submission and commitment which we have described In this paper. Thus participant-observation, although a research strategy not. suited to fully integrating the researcher into the Lifespring Basic Training, did prove to be invaluable for developing insight into the processes of that training.
We have not addressed the normative implications of the training nor the extent to which participants are prepared by our culture to respond positively to Lifespring. The ideational content of the training would he less persuasive, perhaps, if beliefs concerning the autonomy and power of the individual were not deeply embedded in the prevailing ideology of American society. Growth organizations seem to be capitalizing upon the erosion of traditional means of supporting these beliefs and of anchoring individual identity. A deeper understanding of this phenomenon would require an analysis of the sociohistorical context out of which it emerged and from which it has gained its legitimacy.
Janice Haaken PhD, is Assistant Professor of Psychology, Portland State University, Portland OR, 97207.
Richard Adams PhD, is Associate Professor of Sociology Lewis and Clark College, Portland.
-
You do realize that Aspen, WWASPS etc. use the LGAT-type tactics, no? And that the kids have no choice but to participate...you do realize this, right?
You don't have to answer, just making a point.
Yes, I believe they use similar tactics in their model. There is nothing wrong with that. If the child was not at-risk or a troubled teen then the child should submit him/herself to an LGAT only if they wanted to.
Wait, what? So, I'm asking for clarification purposes because I'm genuinely confused by your post.....I asked you if you approved of using LGAT-type tactics on supposedly troubled teens and you responded...
No I dont, unless it is a seminar that they sign up for themselves.
But we're talking about programs for troubled teens that you agree use similar tactics ....
Yes, I believe they use similar tactics in their model
and ....
There is nothing wrong with that. If the child was not at-risk or a troubled teen then the child should submit him/herself to an LGAT only if they wanted to.
The kids are, according to you, in programs because they're troubled.....you don't think LGATs should be used on troubled kids but you approve of programs' use of the tactics on kids? I'm confused.
Well if the kids are supposedly (mistakenly believed to be) troubled teens then I feel they should only be exposed to an LGAT at their own choosing. The kids in programs (who are troubled teens) are exposed to some of the nuances of LGAT on a watered down level. I dont see this as being detrimental to them at all.
I wouldn't exactly call it "watered down;" I'd call it ramped up. Unlike your standard LGAT which could be a weekend, or a series of weekends, or an 8-day shebang day-in/day-out like the Hoffman Quadrinity Process (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=26801), kids are in program for much longer periods of time.
Ursus think about this for a minute, have we not been introduced to LGAT's since puberty in some way or another. Boy Scouts Initiation weekend, Pop Warner Football first weekend workouts, High Schools sports first weekend workouts, the military, Mankind Weekend Workshop, Man Warrior Week Workshop, Self-Help
Experiential Weekends and AA Weekend Conferences. Elan had Marathon LGAT/Groups that I felt were very beneficial in uncovering alot of the shit I had to endure as a child, not all the staff and methods were detrimental to me or others.
Why do you feel compelled to swipe this large brush of yours across the entire landscape and call it abusive, I believe it depends on the education and integrity of the person/persons conducting the experiential exercise.
Last question Ursus are you saying that children today that are in programs are experiencing a LGAT non-stop, 24/7. I have read your opinion of LGAT's and wondered if this is really what your alluding to. Because then I would have to agree that under those circumstances a child's mental and emotional stability would be in question.
-
Bennison, Not that you’re educable, but check out what was happening waaay back in 2009 and STFU.
Jeesh I know you fornits folks just can't teach me anything, ay. And STFU......WHAO Kimmy I love that....way to go girl.
http://www.oregonlive.com/news/index.ss ... igati.html (http://www.oregonlive.com/news/index.ssf/2009/04/state_conducts_two_investigati.html)
Former students have posted on MySpace and Facebook numerous complaints about the school, ranging from what they characterized as humiliating group therapy sessions to sleep deprivation. Judson DeVries, who left the school in 2007, told The Oregonian he was forced into "very embarrassing" role-playing games.
Just terrible wasn't it. Like I said rouge staff members can do harm. Hmmmm.....lap dances I wonder if were hearing from the dancer or the lappy. I would bet not.
http://kohd.com/news/local/147574 (http://kohd.com/news/local/147574)
Same thing Kimmy......listen I have been in LGAT's that went awry and someone was seriously hurt and it was not the participant. He actually hurt one of the coaches. There are many opinions on this form of treatment.
http://www.cafety.org/solutions-and-suc ... my-closing (http://www.cafety.org/solutions-and-successes/791-aspen-education-group-mount-bachelor-academy-closing)
1.As a result of the abuse investigation and violations of Oregon's licensing standards, the state has ordered Mt. Bachelor Academy to temporarily cease all therapeutic, educational and residential services to children until further notice.
I could be crazy but is MBA closed or temporarily closed. If it is closed has it reopened else where.
2. An expert in the field of child and adolescent psychiatry consulted by DHS as part of the investigation concluded: "In general, coercive, degrading and humiliating treatment is harmful to young people, especially those with psychological vulnerabilities. Young people (male and female) who have been victims of abuse often hold themselves responsible for the abuse, and develop sexualized behavior for reasons they often don't understand. To confront them and humiliate them about these behaviors in an effort to force them to see themselves more clearly and consequently change their behavior can be very destructive. It has the risk of reinforcing self-blame and self-loathing attitudes already present in traumatized individuals. It is essentially retraumatizing."
Is there a reason why we can not know who the expert is that (biased) CAFETY was quoting for this article.
-
Well if the kids are supposedly (mistakenly believed to be) troubled teens then I feel they should only be exposed to an LGAT at their own choosing. The kids in programs (who are troubled teens) are exposed to some of the nuances of LGAT on a watered down level. I dont see this as being detrimental to them at all.
I wouldn't exactly call it "watered down;" I'd call it ramped up. Unlike your standard LGAT which could be a weekend, or a series of weekends, or an 8-day shebang day-in/day-out like the Hoffman Quadrinity Process (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=26801), kids are in program for much longer periods of time.
Ursus think about this for a minute, have we not been introduced to LGAT's since puberty in some way or another. Boy Scouts Initiation weekend, Pop Warner Football first weekend workouts, High Schools sports first weekend workouts, the military, Mankind Weekend Workshop, Man Warrior Week Workshop, Self-Help
Experiential Weekends and AA Weekend Conferences. Elan had Marathon LGAT/Groups that I felt were very beneficial in uncovering alot of the shit I had to endure as a child, not all the staff and methods were detrimental to me or others.
Why do you feel compelled to swipe this large brush of yours across the entire landscape and call it abusive, I believe it depends on the education and integrity of the person/persons conducting the experiential exercise.
Last question Ursus are you saying that children today that are in programs are experiencing a LGAT non-stop, 24/7. I have read your opinion of LGAT's and wondered if this is really what your alluding to. Because then I would have to agree that under those circumstances a child's mental and emotional stability would be in question.
Well... the Mankind Project (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=24677&p=308485#p308485) along with its "instructional tool" the New Warrior Training Adventure is an LGAT. Mankind Project evolved out of Sterling Seminars, which in turn evolved out of EST. Of course, there are other influences woven in as well, but the EST lineage is quite recognizable.
A surprising number of Hyde faculty and alumni parents seem drawn to this organization. I guess it's not really so "surprising"... Although I never took EST, I was told by someone who did ... that it was just like Hyde School, albeit for a shorter period of time! :D
For a tale of just how damaging the New Warrior Training Adventure can be, read Chris Vogel's article "Naked Men: The ManKind Project and Michael Scinto (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=23476&p=288277#p288277)" (Houston Press News; October 4, 2007).
-
Well if the kids are supposedly (mistakenly believed to be) troubled teens then I feel they should only be exposed to an LGAT at their own choosing. The kids in programs (who are troubled teens) are exposed to some of the nuances of LGAT on a watered down level. I dont see this as being detrimental to them at all.
I wouldn't exactly call it "watered down;" I'd call it ramped up. Unlike your standard LGAT which could be a weekend, or a series of weekends, or an 8-day shebang day-in/day-out like the Hoffman Quadrinity Process (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=26801), kids are in program for much longer periods of time.
Ursus think about this for a minute, have we not been introduced to LGAT's since puberty in some way or another. Boy Scouts Initiation weekend, Pop Warner Football first weekend workouts, High Schools sports first weekend workouts, the military, Mankind Weekend Workshop, Man Warrior Week Workshop, Self-Help
Experiential Weekends and AA Weekend Conferences. Elan had Marathon LGAT/Groups that I felt were very beneficial in uncovering alot of the shit I had to endure as a child, not all the staff and methods were detrimental to me or others.
Why do you feel compelled to swipe this large brush of yours across the entire landscape and call it abusive, I believe it depends on the education and integrity of the person/persons conducting the experiential exercise.
Last question Ursus are you saying that children today that are in programs are experiencing a LGAT non-stop, 24/7. I have read your opinion of LGAT's and wondered if this is really what your alluding to. Because then I would have to agree that under those circumstances a child's mental and emotional stability would be in question.
Well... the Mankind Project (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=24677&p=308485#p308485) along with its "instructional tool" the New Warrior Training Adventure are an LGAT. Mankind Project evolved out of Sterling Seminars, which in turn evolved out of EST. Of course, there are other influences woven in as well, but the EST lineage is quite recognizable.
A surprising number of Hyde faculty and alumni parents seem drawn to this organization. I guess it's not really so "surprising"... Although I never took EST, I was told by someone who did ... that it was just like Hyde School, albeit for a shorter period of time! :D
For a tale of just how damaging the New Warrior Training Adventure can be, read Chris Vogel's article "Naked Men: The ManKind Project and Michael Scinto (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=23476&p=288277#p288277)" (Houston Press News; October 4, 2007).
Yes read Chris Vogel, your late on that one Ursus. Been there done that, orange papers done that, ect......every LGAT will have supporters and detractors. Nothing wrong with this system actually we need it.
Thanks for answering.
Is there a link that shows that Mankind evolved out of Sterling and Sterling evolved out of Erhard Seminars Training. I can't seem to find it. Or is this just a summation within the LGAT community.
danny
-
Says Whooter :
No I dont, unless it is a seminar that they sign up for themselves.
I agree with you.
Paul
-
By the way, you do know that kids in treatment programs do have the option of not participating? But then they will not progress in the treatment program, but the teens always have a right to refuse. What if a kid refuses to speak, how would the force someone to reveal things about themselves, etc? There is a lot of misinformation in this thread, as usual.
LOL! Not where I went.. and not in most other programs that I hear about. If you don t participate, you will be constantly hounded ( confronted) , both on individual basis, by any and all members who wanna get their jollies by fucking with you. You will be confronted in front of the "family."
You are forced to "relate with any and all free time you get, which means socilalising with people, even if think they are all idiots. You are3 not allowed to "isolate", which means not a moment of peace from these people, and if you really just refuse, you will get blow away haircuts, and sit motionless in a chair all day, and possibly forced to clean some gross ass shit.... And again, let s not forget you ll be treated like a recluse.
This wasn t very long ago.
and considering I drove past the shit hole last year, and peeked in a bit, I don t think much has changed.
Paul
-
Well if the kids are supposedly (mistakenly believed to be) troubled teens then I feel they should only be exposed to an LGAT at their own choosing. The kids in programs (who are troubled teens) are exposed to some of the nuances of LGAT on a watered down level. I dont see this as being detrimental to them at all.
I wouldn't exactly call it "watered down;" I'd call it ramped up. Unlike your standard LGAT which could be a weekend, or a series of weekends, or an 8-day shebang day-in/day-out like the Hoffman Quadrinity Process (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=26801), kids are in program for much longer periods of time.
Ursus think about this for a minute, have we not been introduced to LGAT's since puberty in some way or another. Boy Scouts Initiation weekend, Pop Warner Football first weekend workouts, High Schools sports first weekend workouts, the military, Mankind Weekend Workshop, Man Warrior Week Workshop, Self-Help
Experiential Weekends and AA Weekend Conferences. Elan had Marathon LGAT/Groups that I felt were very beneficial in uncovering alot of the shit I had to endure as a child, not all the staff and methods were detrimental to me or others.
Why do you feel compelled to swipe this large brush of yours across the entire landscape and call it abusive, I believe it depends on the education and integrity of the person/persons conducting the experiential exercise.
Last question Ursus are you saying that children today that are in programs are experiencing a LGAT non-stop, 24/7. I have read your opinion of LGAT's and wondered if this is really what your alluding to. Because then I would have to agree that under those circumstances a child's mental and emotional stability would be in question.
Well... the Mankind Project (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=24677&p=308485#p308485) along with its "instructional tool" the New Warrior Training Adventure are an LGAT. Mankind Project evolved out of Sterling Seminars, which in turn evolved out of EST. Of course, there are other influences woven in as well, but the EST lineage is quite recognizable.
A surprising number of Hyde faculty and alumni parents seem drawn to this organization. I guess it's not really so "surprising"... Although I never took EST, I was told by someone who did ... that it was just like Hyde School, albeit for a shorter period of time! :D
For a tale of just how damaging the New Warrior Training Adventure can be, read Chris Vogel's article "Naked Men: The ManKind Project and Michael Scinto (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=23476&p=288277#p288277)" (Houston Press News; October 4, 2007).
Yes read Chris Vogel, your late on that one Ursus. Been there done that, orange papers done that, ect......every LGAT will have supporters and detractors. Nothing wrong with this system actually we need it.
Thanks for answering.
Is there a link that shows that Mankind evolved out of Sterling and Sterling evolved out of Erhard Seminars Training. I can't seem to find it. Or is this just a summation within the LGAT community.
danny
I provided a link to an article that describes some of the history and background in my post above. Click the link which says "Mankind Project" within the paragraph summarizing said background.
-
But you don’t view him as the scum of the earth because of it. So if a guy that is capable of doing that to a child gets a pass from you why are you so tough on these escort agencies who transport kids for good reason or the 300 pound staff member who sat on the child and killed him by accident and numerous others who have done way less than that?
I think ( my opinion) the answer to the question is that you agree with this guys views and therefore turn a blind eye to his failings and short comings. If this had been a program owner you would never consider his point of view or let him off the hook for what he did to an innocent child.
Whooter, I think you are pulling a Danny here.. She never said that or anything like that.
Personally, I take greater issue with fucked up programs then I do some rogue asshole. One crazy jerk off cannot cause nearly as much harm, then entire programs that operate on faulty premises. Also, it is clear to most, that he is a bad guy. These programs are an issue, because they have yet to be identified as a bad thing. If this were message board about him, perhaps, people would be talking more about this guy, but it s not. He doesn t need a message board, because he s just another loser... not an epidemic. How you get misjudgement from horrible, I don t know, anywhere then you make a big guess that someone agrees with his cause, and then assume your guess to be fact.
Whooter, staff should not have 300 pound guy sitting on someone to restrain them.. This from child help experts, supposedly. It is pure negligence, and absolute stupidity. They probably had that heavy bastard sit on dozens of kids, and they took a chance every time. If you don t know better then that, and you are in an industry with the term "help" in the title, there is a fucking prob;em, here.
Secondarily, this kidnapping asshole, ranks higher in my book, then these programs fools.. At least he has the balls to be a criminal. These other losers hides behind the safety and disguise of helping others, when their hearts are actually just as dark.
Paul
-
SUCKs shIT Says:
Yes I'm serious. It's not possible to force somebody to talk about things they don't want to talk about. They can just refuse all attempts to help them, and then maybe they can find fornits and post about how they were abused, etc.
You re a fucking loser.
Paul
-
Whooter wrote:
By the way, you do know that kids in treatment programs do have the option of not participating? But then they will not progress in the treatment program, but the teens always have a right to refuse. What if a kid refuses to speak, how would the force someone to reveal things about themselves, etc? There is a lot of misinformation in this thread, as usual.
Paul ST. John wrote:
LOL! Not where I went.. and not in most other programs that I hear about. If you don t participate, you will be constantly hounded ( confronted) , both on individual basis, by any and all members who wanna get their jollies by fucking with you. You will be confronted in front of the "family."
Danny wrote:
Why can't folks here just remark on theirs experience, why do they feel compelled to include the whole TTI.
Do you feel your point will not be credible if you just mentions yours. Paul I was in Marathon House and Elan and neither forced me to talk about anything. The only time I witnessed any pressure at all being applied to anyone was during a General Meeting at Elan.
Paul ST. John:
You are forced to "relate with any and all free time you get, which means socilalising with people, even if think they are all idiots. You are not allowed to "isolate", which means not a moment of peace from these people, and if you really just refuse, you will get blow away haircuts, and sit motionless in a chair all day, and possibly forced to clean some gross ass shit.... And again, let s not forget you ll be treated like a recluse.
Danny wrote:
This sounds like it is a bit overblown, Paul. I just can't see you socializing all day with folks you don't like.
Paul St.John
This wasn t very long ago.
Danny wrote:
Right, anything to make a point here on fornits.
Paul St. John wrote:
and considering I drove past the shit hole last year, and peeked in a bit, I don t think much has changed.
Danny wrote:
Why should it, you have not changed your perception. Maybe it just wasn't for you. You did not need it. Remember your reasons for being there were not really problems of your own making. It was a disagreement between your father and you. I am not being fictitious here, I am trying to be understand.
danny
-
SUCKs shIT Says:
Yes I'm serious. It's not possible to force somebody to talk about things they don't want to talk about. They can just refuse all attempts to help them, and then maybe they can find fornits and post about how they were abused, etc.
You re a fucking loser.
Paul
I bet you felt justified to verbally attack him, huh......and who is the loser.
Hold your temper, son.
Better let me handle these delicate conversations....lol.
danny
-
Whooter wrote:
By the way, you do know that kids in treatment programs do have the option of not participating? But then they will not progress in the treatment program, but the teens always have a right to refuse. What if a kid refuses to speak, how would the force someone to reveal things about themselves, etc? There is a lot of misinformation in this thread, as usual.
Paul ST. John wrote:
LOL! Not where I went.. and not in most other programs that I hear about. If you don t participate, you will be constantly hounded ( confronted) , both on individual basis, by any and all members who wanna get their jollies by fucking with you. You will be confronted in front of the "family."
Danny wrote:
Why can't folks here just remark on theirs experience, why do they feel compelled to include the whole TTI.
Do you feel your point will not be credible if you just mentions yours. Paul I was in Marathon House and Elan and neither forced me to talk about anything. The only time I witnessed any pressure at all being applied to anyone was during a General Meeting at Elan.
Danny, I am talking about my experiences. Suck It, was talking about programs generally. this person was making a generalized statement
that seemed to apply to all programs, in this person's perspective. I am not talking about all programs. I could not do that, because I have not
been to all programs, and I think that I am pretty clear on that in my statement. Shall, I have just left it where it was? Yes suck it is right, You
never have to participate.
Paul ST. John:
You are forced to "relate with any and all free time you get, which means socilalising with people, even if think they are all idiots. You are not allowed to "isolate", which means not a moment of peace from these people, and if you really just refuse, you will get blow away haircuts, and sit motionless in a chair all day, and possibly forced to clean some gross ass shit.... And again, let s not forget you ll be treated like a recluse.
Danny wrote:
This sounds like it is a bit overblown,
There is nothing overblown at all about it Danny.
Paul. I just can't see you socializing all day with folks you don't like.
Well, I won some; I lost some, and I found all sorts of ways around it, but I never seen anyone else pull that off, and besides, regardless of
what I or anyone else may have managed to do , in spite of the program, it was designed to make sure that you did participate, and break
anyone who did not.
Paul St.John
This wasn t very long ago.
Danny wrote:
Right, anything to make a point here on fornits.
I'm not sure what you mean by that man.. I am just letting it be known, that this was not too long ago, before someone starts saying that
what I am talking about occurred 30 years ago. One of the issues that IO have here, is that nothing is ever established, and therefore, I have to
keep repeating facts.
Paul St. John wrote:
and considering I drove past the shit hole last year, and peeked in a bit, I don t think much has changed.
Danny wrote:
Why should it, you have not changed your perception. Maybe it just wasn't for you. You did not need it. Remember your reasons for being there were not really problems of your own making. It was a disagreement between your father and you. I am not being fictitious here, I am trying to be understand.
Danny, I never said that. I never said anything like that. I don t know where you came up with this shit. I mentioned that I did in fact have a
father, and I told you that it was none of your business why I was there, and from that you create the above idea, and assume that it is real.
I still don t understand you Danny. You claim to be all about exposing Elan... Why do you spend all your efforts on protecting other programs?
Me. personally, i don t know anything about these other programs, and they are not really the main issue to me.
In the end, it is not about the kid though. It is about the parents. It is about the school.. It is about society. It s not about making the child's life easier. It is about making everyone else's life easier.
danny
-
SUCKs shIT Says:
Yes I'm serious. It's not possible to force somebody to talk about things they don't want to talk about. They can just refuse all attempts to help them, and then maybe they can find fornits and post about how they were abused, etc.
You re a fucking loser.
Paul
I bet you felt justified to verbally attack him, huh......and who is the loser.
Hold your temper, son.
Better let me handle these delicate conversations....lol.
danny
Danny, this person has many times made absolute fun of the hardships that people have endured. I stand by what I said. This person is a fucking loser. And this person has the right to be a fucking loser. But when this person starts projecting onto others, I am going to let them know that they are a fucking loser. You don t have to agree with me danny. I don t need your approval.
Paul
-
Whooter wrote:
By the way, you do know that kids in treatment programs do have the option of not participating? But then they will not progress in the treatment program, but the teens always have a right to refuse. What if a kid refuses to speak, how would the force someone to reveal things about themselves, etc? There is a lot of misinformation in this thread, as usual.
Paul ST. John wrote:
LOL! Not where I went.. and not in most other programs that I hear about. If you don t participate, you will be constantly hounded ( confronted) , both on individual basis, by any and all members who wanna get their jollies by fucking with you. You will be confronted in front of the "family."
Danny wrote:
Why can't folks here just remark on theirs experience, why do they feel compelled to include the whole TTI.
Do you feel your point will not be credible if you just mentions yours. Paul I was in Marathon House and Elan and neither forced me to talk about anything. The only time I witnessed any pressure at all being applied to anyone was during a General Meeting at Elan.
Danny, I am talking about my experiences. Suck It, was talking about programs generally. this person was making a generalized statement
Danny wrote:
You said, " Not where I went..and not in most other programs that I hear about."
that seemed to apply to all programs, in this person's perspective. I am not talking about all programs. I could not do that, because I have not been to all programs, and I think that I am pretty clear on that in my statement. Shall, I have just left it where it was? Yes suck it is right, You never have to participate. [/u]
Paul ST. John:
You are forced to "relate with any and all free time you get, which means socilalising with people, even if think they are all idiots. You are not allowed to "isolate", which means not a moment of peace from these people, and if you really just refuse, you will get blow away haircuts, and sit motionless in a chair all day, and possibly forced to clean some gross ass shit.... And again, let s not forget you ll be treated like a recluse.
Danny wrote:
This sounds like it is a bit overblown,
There is nothing overblown at all about it Danny.
Paul. I just can't see you socializing all day with folks you don't like.
Well, I won some; I lost some, and I found all sorts of ways around it, but I never seen anyone else pull that off, and besides, regardless of
what I or anyone else may have managed to do , in spite of the program, it was designed to make sure that you did participate, and break
anyone who did not.
Paul St.John
This wasn t very long ago.
Danny wrote:
Right, anything to make a point here on fornits.
I'm not sure what you mean by that man.. I am just letting it be known, that this was not too long ago, before someone starts saying that
what I am talking about occurred 30 years ago. One of the issues that IO have here, is that nothing is ever established, and therefore, I have to
keep repeating facts.
Paul St. John wrote:
and considering I drove past the shit hole last year, and peeked in a bit, I don t think much has changed.
Danny wrote:
Why should it, you have not changed your perception. Maybe it just wasn't for you. You did not need it. Remember your reasons for being there were not really problems of your own making. It was a disagreement between your father and you. I am not being fictitious here, I am trying to be understand.
Danny, I never said that. I never said anything like that. I don t know where you came up with this shit. I mentioned that I did in fact have a father, and I told you that it was none of your business why I was there, and from that you create the above idea, and assume that it is real.
Danny wrote:
I said something about it because you referenced it on another post, no biggy it isn't my business your right. Sorry for offending you. Why is it such a secret why you were in Daytop on a Web Site like this.
I still don t understand you Danny. You claim to be all about exposing Elan... Why do you spend all your efforts on protecting other programs?
Danny wrote:
Done got the T-Shirt, Exposing Elan is not a life long project it is pretty much done.
Protecting other programs, just being true to my beliefs.
Me. personally, i don t know anything about these other programs, and they are not really the main issue to me.
In the end, it is not about the kid though. It is about the parents. It is about the school.. It is about society. It s not about making the child's life easier. It is about making everyone else's life easier.
Danny wrote:
Now this is the best statement you have made today.
-
You missed my point Danny.
I was saying that that is what it is about... not what it should be about.
We are not on this earth to please others, Danny.
and "programming" a person, because they are an inconvenience to others, is not only unethical, and unjustifiable, but it is also weak, self-centered, and evil.
Paul
-
Danny wrote:
Why should it, you have not changed your perception. Maybe it just wasn't for you. You did not need it. Remember your reasons for being there were not really problems of your own making. It was a disagreement between your father and you. I am not being fictitious here, I am trying to be understand.
Danny, I never said that. I never said anything like that. I don t know where you came up with this shit. I mentioned that I did in fact have a father, and I told you that it was none of your business why I was there, and from that you create the above idea, and assume that it is real.
Danny wrote:
I said something about it because you referenced it on another post, no biggy it isn't my business your right. Sorry for offending you. Why is it such a secret why you were in Daytop on a Web Site like this.
==========================================================================
I didn t reference anything of the sort. You just remember it that way.
Paul
Paul
-
The term Large Group Awareness Training (LGAT) refers to "training" offered by certain groups sometimes linked with the human potential movement. By using LGAT techniques, these providers claim to (among other things) increase self-awareness and bring about preferred personal changes in individuals' lives. Michael Langone has referred to Large Group Awareness Training as new age trainings and Philip Cushman referred to them as mass marathon trainings.
Large Group Awareness Training programs may involve several hundred people at a time. Though early definitions cited LGATs as featuring unusually long durations, more recent texts describe the trainings as lasting from a few hours to a few days. In 2004, DuMerton, citing "Langone (1989)", estimated that "erhaps a million Americans have attended LGATs". Forsyth and Corazzini cite Lieberman (1994) as suggesting "that at least 1.3 million Americans have taken part in LGAT sessions".
Definitions of LGAT
DuMerton described Large Group Awareness Training as "teaching simple, but often overlooked wisdom, which takes place over the period of a few days, in which individuals receive intense, emotionally-focused instruction."
Rubinstein compared Large Group Awareness Training to certain principles of cognitive therapy, such as the idea that people can change their lives by interpreting the way they view external circumstances. And in Consumer Research: Postcards from the edge, when discussing behavioral and economic studies, the authors contrasted the "enclosed locations" used with Large Group Awareness Trainings with the "relatively open" environment of a "variety store".
...
-
You missed my point Danny.
I was saying that that is what it is about... not what it should be about.
We are not on this earth to please others, Danny.
and "programming" a person, because they are an inconvenience to others, is not only unethical, and unjustifiable, but it is also weak, self-centered, and evil.
Paul
Paul what am I missing. I did not miss anything, you talk in circles at times. No problem a lot of us do that here at times. Some more then others.
I agree with your "programming" a person, statement.
-
The term Large Group Awareness Training (LGAT) refers to "training" offered by certain groups sometimes linked with the human potential movement. By using LGAT techniques, these providers claim to (among other things) increase self-awareness and bring about preferred personal changes in individuals' lives. Michael Langone has referred to Large Group Awareness Training as new age trainings and Philip Cushman referred to them as mass marathon trainings.
Large Group Awareness Training programs may involve several hundred people at a time. Though early definitions cited LGATs as featuring unusually long durations, more recent texts describe the trainings as lasting from a few hours to a few days. In 2004, DuMerton, citing "Langone (1989)", estimated that "erhaps a million Americans have attended LGATs". Forsyth and Corazzini cite Lieberman (1994) as suggesting "that at least 1.3 million Americans have taken part in LGAT sessions".
Definitions of LGAT
DuMerton described Large Group Awareness Training as "teaching simple, but often overlooked wisdom, which takes place over the period of a few days, in which individuals receive intense, emotionally-focused instruction."
Rubinstein compared Large Group Awareness Training to certain principles of cognitive therapy, such as the idea that people can change their lives by interpreting the way they view external circumstances. And in Consumer Research: Postcards from the edge, when discussing behavioral and economic studies, the authors contrasted the "enclosed locations" used with Large Group Awareness Trainings with the "relatively open" environment of a "variety store".
...
I just read this.....lol.
-
The term Large Group Awareness Training (LGAT) refers to "training" offered by certain groups sometimes linked with the human potential movement. By using LGAT techniques, these providers claim to (among other things) increase self-awareness and bring about preferred personal changes in individuals' lives. Michael Langone has referred to Large Group Awareness Training as new age trainings and Philip Cushman referred to them as mass marathon trainings.
Large Group Awareness Training programs may involve several hundred people at a time. Though early definitions cited LGATs as featuring unusually long durations, more recent texts describe the trainings as lasting from a few hours to a few days. In 2004, DuMerton, citing "Langone (1989)", estimated that "erhaps a million Americans have attended LGATs". Forsyth and Corazzini cite Lieberman (1994) as suggesting "that at least 1.3 million Americans have taken part in LGAT sessions".
Definitions of LGAT
DuMerton described Large Group Awareness Training as "teaching simple, but often overlooked wisdom, which takes place over the period of a few days, in which individuals receive intense, emotionally-focused instruction."
Rubinstein compared Large Group Awareness Training to certain principles of cognitive therapy, such as the idea that people can change their lives by interpreting the way they view external circumstances. And in Consumer Research: Postcards from the edge, when discussing behavioral and economic studies, the authors contrasted the "enclosed locations" used with Large Group Awareness Trainings with the "relatively open" environment of a "variety store".
...
You forgot this part: ;)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Large_Grou ... s_Training (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Large_Group_Awareness_Training)[/list]
-
Also from the Wikipedia article:
LGAT techniques (http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Large_Group_Awareness_Training)
Finkelstein's 1982 article provides a detailed description of the structure and techniques of an Erhard Seminars Training event, noting an authoritarian demeanor of the trainer, physical strains on the participants from a long schedule, and the similarity of many techniques to those used in some group therapy and encounter groups.[20] The academic textbook, Handbook of Group Psychotherapy regards Large Group Awareness Training organisations as "less open to leader differences", because they follow a "detailed written plan" that does not vary from one training to the next.[11]
Specific techniques used in Large Group Awareness Trainings may include:
- meditation[23]
[li]biofeedback[23] - self-hypnosis[23]
- relaxation techniques[23]
- visualization[23]
- neuro-linguistic programming[24]
- mind-control[23]
- yoga[23]
LGATs utilize such techniques during long sessions, sometimes called a "marathon" session. Paglia describes "EST's Large Group Awareness Training": "Marathon, eight-hour sessions, in which [participants] were confined and harassed, supposedly led to the breakdown of conventional ego, after which they were in effect born again."[25]
In his book Life 102, LGAT participant and former trainer Peter McWilliams describes the basic technique of marathon trainings as pressure/release and asserts that advertising uses pressure/release "all the time", as do "good cop/bad cop" police-interrogations and revival meetings. By spending approximately half the time making a person feel bad and then suddenly reversing the feeling through effusive praise, the programs cause participants to experience a stress-reaction and an "endorphin high". McWilliams gives examples of various LGAT activities called processes with names such as "love bomb," "lifeboat", "cocktail party" and "cradling" which take place over many hours and days, physically exhausting the participants to make them more susceptible to the trainer's message, whether in the participants' best interests or not.[26]
Although extremely critical of some LGATs, McWilliams found positive value in others, asserting that they varied not in technique but in the application of technique.[26][/li][/list]
-
Of 313 inmates who volunteered for est training in a Federal Correctional Institution, 150 were randomly selected for the training, while the balance acted as a waiting-list control group and were given scholarships to be used upon release. The groups did not differ on demographics or variables related to criminal history. They were given a full battery of psychological tests and biofeedback instruments, with half of the group pre-tested and half post-tested (to control for the possible contaminating effect of testing). Three-month and 12-month follow-ups were conducted to assess behavioral outcomes (incident reports, furloughs, work performance, etc.). Although the psychological tests reflected some positive change, these self-report changes did not manifest themselves in alterations in physiological measures or in actual behavior.
...
-
URSUS YOU FORGOT THIS PART;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Large_Grou ... s_Training (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Large_Group_Awareness_Training)
This article may contain improper references to self-published sources. Please help improve it by removing references to unreliable sources where they are used inappropriately. (March 2008)
danny
-
URSUS YOU FORGOT THIS PART;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Large_Grou ... s_Training (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Large_Group_Awareness_Training)
This article may contain improper references to self-published sources. Please help improve it by removing references to unreliable sources where they are used inappropriately. (March 2008)
danny
Nope. Put your mouse on the subtitle "LGAT techniques" in my previous post (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30686&p=367148#p367145)... and... click it.
Do you know how to recognize hypertext links (http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypertext), Danny?
-
You missed my point Danny.
I was saying that that is what it is about... not what it should be about.
We are not on this earth to please others, Danny.
and "programming" a person, because they are an inconvenience to others, is not only unethical, and unjustifiable, but it is also weak, self-centered, and evil.
Paul
Paul what am I missing. I did not miss anything, you talk in circles at times. No problem a lot of us do that here at times. Some more then others.
I agree with your "programming" a person, statement.
Oh.. Okay..
Paul
-
LOL
I remember Danny put a link in a post to me.
Of course, it did not work.. but hey..
LOL!
Paul
-
URSUS YOU FORGOT THIS PART;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Large_Group_Awareness_Training
This article may contain improper references to self-published sources. Please help improve it by removing references to unreliable sources where they are used inappropriately. (March 2008)
No Ursus you forgot to explicitly point this out. OK!!!!!!!
-
URSUS YOU FORGOT THIS PART;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Large_Group_Awareness_Training
This article may contain improper references to self-published sources. Please help improve it by removing references to unreliable sources where they are used inappropriately. (March 2008)
No Ursus you forgot to explicitly point this out. OK!!!!!!!
No, Danny, it's already understood by just about anyone who uses the internet. Now you know.
-
So it seems worst case is that LGAT is controversial. It hasnt been found to be abusive by the APA. In fact I believe they defended it at one point. Studies have shown positive change as a result of LGAT's and no significant changes in behavior. So it is fairly benign in nature.
...
-
URSUS YOU FORGOT THIS PART;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Large_Group_Awareness_Training
This article may contain improper references to self-published sources. Please help improve it by removing references to unreliable sources where they are used inappropriately. (March 2008)
No Ursus you forgot to explicitly point this out. OK!!!!!!!
No, Danny, it's already understood by just about anyone who uses the internet. Now you know.
No you are not getting my point, your right everyone does understand that wikipedia has this clause, dumbunny.
But what everyone doesn't get here is you do not like to own that your myriad of posts you flood this site with are all just as suspect of flaws.
Now do you get it.......my copy and paste man.
Liza seems to like you and doesn't like me using language as such....lol. So now your a dumbunny.
-
So it seems worst case is that LGAT is controversial. It hasnt been found to be abusive by the APA. In fact I believe they defended it at one point. Studies have shown positive change as a result of LGAT's and no significant changes in behavior. So it is fairly benign in nature.
...
Well I really think is it depends on who is performing the LGAT, whether they are educated, have common sense and a natural ability to have empathy for others.
danny
-
Danny, I know that this something you believe in very strongly. Elan is a bad place, and you took it on.. got the t-shirt and everything, but now the time has come that Danny is called on to do more good works, and so comes the defense of these new and improved programs.
In light of your strongly held beliefs and earnest conviction, can you please list the 3 top programs that you most highly recomend along with descriptions of them, and why each of them appeals you to personally, and perhaps, how they can help teens, and why you stand so strongly behid them?
Paul
-
So it seems worst case is that LGAT is controversial. It hasnt been found to be abusive by the APA. In fact I believe they defended it at one point. Studies have shown positive change as a result of LGAT's and no significant changes in behavior. So it is fairly benign in nature.
From the conclusion of the paper posted earlier (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30686&start=30#p367103) in this thread, "Pathology as 'Personal Growth': A Participant-Observation Study of Lifespring Training," color emphasis added:
Conclusion
We have argued that while many participants experienced a sense of enhanced well-being as a consequence of the training, these experiences were essentially pathological. First, ego functions were systematically undermined and regression was promoted by environmental structuring, infantilizing of participants and repeated emphasis on submission and surrender. Second, the ideational or interpretive framework provided in the training was also based upon regressive modes of reasoning--the use of all-or-nothing categories, absolutist logic and magical thinking, all of which are consistent with the egocentric thinking of young children. Third, the content of the training stimulated early narcissistic conflicts and defenses, which accounts for the elation and sense of heightened well-being achieved by many participants. The devaluation of objective constraints upon a person's action promoted grandiose fantasies of unlimited power. A corollary to this devaluation of the external world wits that interactions with others lacked substance. People appeared to be interchangeable so that ephemeral, indiscriminate emotional contacts were experienced as profound and meaningful. Identification with Lifespring necessitated considerable idealization so that any threat to this experience was aggressively defended against.[/list]
-
I knew a guy who was real big into "EST".
It seemed to be real empowering to him, but at the same time, kinda just like a temporary head trip.
Just sayin...
Paul
PS It's not for kids, and it s not for therapy. It's more for people who wanna keep trippin without the acid, from my my admittedly limited perspective on the topic.
It seems to require constant replenishing. It is a belief system to an extent or at least backed by one. Makes you feel better then you should, given your current circumstances at any time.
-
Danny, I know that this something you believe in very strongly. Elan is a bad place, and you took it on.. got the t-shirt and everything, but now the time has come that Danny is called on to do more good works, and so comes the defense of these new and improved programs.
In light of your strongly held beliefs and earnest conviction, can you please list the 3 top programs that you most highly recomend along with descriptions of them, and why each of them appeals you to personally, and perhaps, how they can help teens, and why you stand so strongly behid them?
Paul
Why don't you start a another thread, your post here has nothing to do with the subject on this thread.
-
Ummmm..... yes it does..definitly does... But anyway.. I not starting a new thread.. not that important to me.. If you want to go head.
Paul
-
Ummmm..... yes it does..definitly does... But anyway.. I not starting a new thread.. not that important to me.. If you want to go head.
Paul
Yes you are right, LGAT's have a place within your questions. I will not do it here, you want to ask "smart ass" questions with no merit then you will work for it, son.
danny
-
So sort of like a pathological/ recreational therapy, it doesn’t last very long, makes people feel good but you need to keep going back to the well to keep the buzz going.
...
-
Alright, well, at least we are on the same on page, in that, I am in fact, being a smartass. Anyhow, you have your thread. I made it for ya.
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30690 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30690)
-
So sort of like a pathological/ recreational therapy, it doesn’t last very long, makes people feel good but you need to keep going back to the well to keep the buzz going.
...
That's the impression that I get. It conflicts with reality, so you have to keep getting revamped, whether it is through the workshops, your own self- hypnosis, or others participants.
Paul
-
So sort of like a pathological/ recreational therapy, it doesn’t last very long, makes people feel good but you need to keep going back to the well to keep the buzz going.
That's the impression that I get. It conflicts with reality, so you have to keep getting revamped, whether it is through the workshops, your own self- hypnosis, or others participants.
Well, having participants go back to the well again and again would seem to be rather key in the overall scheme of things, eh? When folks keep paying to take the next level, and/or recruit new marks to expand the customer base, this ends up making the top of that pyramid mighty rich. ;D
I would add that not everyone "feels good" after spending time at an LGAT. Some folk have been quite damaged by their experience. And some LGATs certainly seem to have a worse track record than others in this regard.
-
I never saw so much energy in one room before. My wife went to EST when we were younger. I dropped her off in the a.m. and then picked her up at night for 2 /3 days I believe and then I attended the final ceremony (not sure what they called it). People were giving speeches and clapping, laughing. They almost seemed a little insane like they had no inhibitions left at all. As I met different people around me they all felt sorry for me that I didn’t experience what they did, but as I looked around I was glad I opted to sit in the bar each night and watch the Red Sox as they all struggled to contain their bladders in a locked conference room pretending to gain insight. My wife was really cranked up afterwards and wanted to become a sponsor (or sergeant, whatever they called them) and get our neighbors and family members to try it (which I stepped on real quick), we changed our routine a bit to satisfy her cravings and after a week or so she settled down back to normal. Whenever we met someone from the group she would spark up again and regain some of the energy and craziness. So it was definitely a mental state that mimicked a drug of some sort.
...
-
So sort of like a pathological/ recreational therapy, it doesn’t last very long, makes people feel good but you need to keep going back to the well to keep the buzz going.
That's the impression that I get. It conflicts with reality, so you have to keep getting revamped, whether it is through the workshops, your own self- hypnosis, or others participants.
Well, keeping participants going back to the well is part of the whole scheme of things, eh? When folks keep paying to take the next level, and/or recruit new marks to expand the customer base, this ends up making the top of that pyramid mighty rich. ;D
Sure, and I am not a guy against making money, but do it honestly. This is the way all cults operate. Ya know, in the church of Scientology, they actually charge members for literature, and a lot at that, just so the members can have the opportunity to pay to ship these things out to others, possibly through mailing lists that the member also purchases, and what do they get ? Nothing. They are so convinced of the cause, that they just feel good about doing it. Meanwhile, any recruits they get, then pay their admission, and pay more every step along the way. I simply cannot ignore, that the dynamic is the same in the programs that I know of.
I would add that not everyone "feels good" after spending time at an LGAT. Some folk have been quite damaged by their experience.
I believe it. Not everybody can handle it.
And some LGATs certainly seem to have a worse track record than others in this regard.
Probably depending on the extreme tp which they employ the more stupid portions of the ideology.
Paul
-
I never saw so much energy in one room before. My wife went to EST when we were younger. I dropped her off in the a.m. and then picked her up at night for 2 /3 days I believe and then I attended the final ceremony (not sure what they called it). People were giving speeches and clapping, laughing. They almost seemed a little insane like they had no inhibitions left at all. As I met different people around me they all felt sorry for me that I didn’t experience what they did, but as I looked around I was glad I opted to sit in the bar each night and watch the Red Sox as they all struggled to contain their bladders in a locked conference room pretending to gain insight. My wife was really cranked up afterwards and wanted to become a sponsor (or sergeant, whatever they called them) and get our neighbors and family members to try it (which I stepped on real quick), we changed our routine a bit to satisfy her cravings and after a week or so she settled down back to normal. Whenever we met someone from the group she would spark up again and regain some of the energy and craziness. So it was definitely a mental state that mimicked a drug of some sort.
Oh, no "mimicking" needed, lol. Try mega-release of adrenalin and endorphins and whatever else is in the mix that your body cranks out in response to crisis plus exhaustion. I'm sure it's addictive.
The trainers manipulate the crowd much like a conductor tends to his orchestra: pressure-release... pressure-release... tease them up with mini crescendos here and there... pizzicato now and then for titillation... destroy them every once in a while to make the highs feel higher, as well as to weaken participants' resistance to thorough penetration of the message... but build the mightiest crescendo for the supreme climax at the end, leaving them all with a maximal high.
Wooooo-u-Wooooooooooo! DINAH! Won't yah blow yer HORRNNNNNNN!!!
A good trainer can thus maximize his or her percentage of repeaters on the next seminar, I imagine. :D
-
What is being described here happens in churches and other religions every Sunday. In some churches people get up and sing and dance or talk in tongue. Adolescent worship also pray in groups and do the things described here, but no complaints about that? These groups you speak about are just copying religion, but putting it in a secular framework. Think of it as religion for atheists or people who don't like religions for whatever reason, but still want the same emotions involved with the service. It's easy to make fun of these people and say look it's addictive, the come back every week and even pay for it by donating money. If it didn't give people what they needed they wouldn't go, so obviously it is doing something positive for people. This group dynamic is present in many different scenarios, but for some reason when applied for self improvement or treatment programs it suddenly is some evil tactic, more double standard from this forum.
-
http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=24677&start=30
Another major influence for the New Warrior Training Adventure for MKP is Robert Bly's writings and his influence on the men's movement. On the back cover of the training manual for leaders on the NWTA called The Circle of Men, Kauth credits Bly's influence. It states that the "wild man weekends" are inspired by the mythopoetic writings and personal testimonies of Robert Bly, Sam Keen and John Lee. It goes on to say that they followed Bly's practical advice he gave to gatherings of men to form small groups. Bly is quoted extensively in their writings. Bly has attended several of the weekends and continues to support MKP. Much of the Native American Indian Spiritualism and rituals performed at the NWTA weekends comes directly from Bly and the works of Carl G. Jung. Several books written by Bly are also used: Iron John, Little Book on the Human Shadow, and The Rag and Bone Shop of the Heart Poems for Men.
Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
DannyB II wrote:
I can personally attest to Roberts influence on the mens movement. John Lee and his book the "Flying Boy" is a great book, much to learn.
Postby Ursus » March 2nd, 2008, 10:39 am
Paul Lynde wrote:Paul Lynde was found dead of a heart attack, naked and holding a bottle of amyl nitrate
Ursus wrote:
Well... at least he wasn't holding a "special stick."
When you have the icon in your lap, it's your turn to share.
Mark Roggemann wrote:
They are encouraged in sessions to share about times they were shamed while growing up. These are wounds that were hidden and now need to be dealt with. At one session, a male phallic symbol was passed around signifying what it means to be a man; they were encouraged to talk about sexual experiences.
Ursus wrote:
Those sessions are done whilst everyone is naked. At a certain point in the session, the men are encouraged to touch an adjacent brother between the legs if they so wish (yep!!), and reveal their feelings for their brother Warriors... lol
DannyB II wrote:
This really frightens you doesn't it Ursus, so much that you become very effeminate, maybe it is you regressing to that little boy who was intimidated by dad. I don't know but I find this remark very queer(odd). Your giggling is not unusual for someone uncomfortable with their nakedness if front of others. Your doing this with 100 other men.
Another note;
Ursus never did the Warrior Weekend so he is only going by Mark Roggemann testimony and others, he really does not know if they get naked or not. Now mind you they do but he doesn't know.
I googled Mark Roggemann and have not found any significance as of yet that this gentlemen is anything other then a regular Joe.
Robert Bly's, "Iron John" story is used as a bases for the weekend.
I personally have met Robert on several occasions at his hometown in Minnesota and also in Mentone, Alabama with John Lee. John I know well from his time in Georgia and from working with John personally and attending John and Roberts weekend in Mentone every late October.
danny
-
http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=24677&start=30
Another major influence for the New Warrior Training Adventure for MKP is Robert Bly's writings and his influence on the men's movement. On the back cover of the training manual for leaders on the NWTA called The Circle of Men, Kauth credits Bly's influence. It states that the "wild man weekends" are inspired by the mythopoetic writings and personal testimonies of Robert Bly, Sam Keen and John Lee. It goes on to say that they followed Bly's practical advice he gave to gatherings of men to form small groups. Bly is quoted extensively in their writings. Bly has attended several of the weekends and continues to support MKP. Much of the Native American Indian Spiritualism and rituals performed at the NWTA weekends comes directly from Bly and the works of Carl G. Jung. Several books written by Bly are also used: Iron John, Little Book on the Human Shadow, and The Rag and Bone Shop of the Heart Poems for Men.
I can personally attest to Roberts influence on the mens movement. John Lee and his book the "Flying Boy" is a great book, much to learn.
Fwiw, the correct link for the post containing Mark Roggeman's article, "OH MAN, WHAT KIND OF PROJECT IS THIS? EXPOSING THE INDECENT EXPOSURE OF THE MANKIND PROJECT," from which the above quote was taken is HERE (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=24677&start=30#p308485).
-
What is being described here happens in churches and other religions every Sunday. In some churches people get up and sing and dance or talk in tongue. Adolescent worship also pray in groups and do the things described here, but no complaints about that? These groups you speak about are just copying religion, but putting it in a secular framework. Think of it as religion for atheists or people who don't like religions for whatever reason, but still want the same emotions involved with the service. It's easy to make fun of these people and say look it's addictive, the come back every week and even pay for it by donating money. If it didn't give people what they needed they wouldn't go, so obviously it is doing something positive for people. This group dynamic is present in many different scenarios, but for some reason when applied for self improvement or treatment programs it suddenly is some evil tactic, more double standard from this forum.
Maybe, but church is voluntary. You can walk out or walk away at any time. Kids that are exposed to it for months on end and their progress in their program depends on how well they "perform" in these sessions can't walk away. It also has that element of "break 'em to build 'em" which should never be used on children, let alone troubled children, IMO.
-
I googled Mark Roggemann and have not found any significance as of yet that this gentlemen is anything other then a regular Joe.
Robert Bly's, "Iron John" story is used as a bases for the weekend.
I personally have met Robert on several occasions at his hometown in Minnesota and also in Mentone, Alabama with John Lee. John I know well from his time in Georgia and from working with John personally and attending John and Roberts weekend in Mentone every late October.
danny
Mark Roggeman is a police officer, as well as cult exit-counselor, based in Colorado.
The brief biographical sketch on him at the end of the article (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=24677&start=30#p308485) you quoted from in your post (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30686&p=367213#p367190) above ... reads as follows:
Mark Roggeman has been involved in outreach to those affected by cults and other highdemand groups for a period of 30 years. He has assisted with exit-counseling individuals trapped in cults and provides support for the families with loved ones who are involved in cults. He has served as a police officer in Denver, Colorado for the past 34 years and assists other law-enforcement agencies with information and training on cults.
Mark is currently a part-time missionary with Haven Ministry located in the Denver Area. He has a degree in Criminal Justice and has attended Calvary Chapel Bible College.[/list]
-
What is being described here happens in churches and other religions every Sunday. In some churches people get up and sing and dance or talk in tongue. Adolescent worship also pray in groups and do the things described here, but no complaints about that? These groups you speak about are just copying religion, but putting it in a secular framework. Think of it as religion for atheists or people who don't like religions for whatever reason, but still want the same emotions involved with the service. It's easy to make fun of these people and say look it's addictive, the come back every week and even pay for it by donating money. If it didn't give people what they needed they wouldn't go, so obviously it is doing something positive for people. This group dynamic is present in many different scenarios, but for some reason when applied for self improvement or treatment programs it suddenly is some evil tactic, more double standard from this forum.
Maybe, but church is voluntary. You can walk out or walk away at any time. Kids that are exposed to it for months on end and their progress in their program depends on how well they "perform" in these sessions can't walk away. It also has that element of "break 'em to build 'em" which should never be used on children, let alone troubled children, IMO.
Your cult leader psy could have walked out at any time, yet still claims he was 'abused' in treatment. This is the same fornits double standard that many people see on this forum and wonder why the extremists cannot see it. AA is voluntary yet that is described as something evil, more double standards. A lot of scenarios have a break em to build em system, this is just a clever fornits term to introduce violent terms into the debate once again, school breaks down old ideas and replaces them with new ones nobody complains that is abusive here.
-
What is being described here happens in churches and other religions every Sunday. In some churches people get up and sing and dance or talk in tongue. Adolescent worship also pray in groups and do the things described here, but no complaints about that? These groups you speak about are just copying religion, but putting it in a secular framework. Think of it as religion for atheists or people who don't like religions for whatever reason, but still want the same emotions involved with the service. It's easy to make fun of these people and say look it's addictive, the come back every week and even pay for it by donating money. If it didn't give people what they needed they wouldn't go, so obviously it is doing something positive for people. This group dynamic is present in many different scenarios, but for some reason when applied for self improvement or treatment programs it suddenly is some evil tactic, more double standard from this forum.
Maybe, but church is voluntary. You can walk out or walk away at any time. Kids that are exposed to it for months on end and their progress in their program depends on how well they "perform" in these sessions can't walk away. It also has that element of "break 'em to build 'em" which should never be used on children, let alone troubled children, IMO.
Your cult leader psy could have walked out at any time, yet still claims he was 'abused' in treatment. This is the same fornits double standard that many people see on this forum and wonder why the extremists cannot see it. AA is voluntary yet that is described as something evil, more double standards. A lot of scenarios have a break em to build em system, this is just a clever fornits term to introduce violent terms into the debate once again, school breaks down old ideas and replaces them with new ones nobody complains that is abusive here.
Then talk to Psy about that. I'm talking about kids in programs who have no choice.
-
Paul Lynde was found dead of a heart attack, naked and holding a bottle of amyl nitrate
Well... at least he wasn't holding a "special stick."
They are encouraged in sessions to share about times they were shamed while growing up. These are wounds that were hidden and now need to be dealt with. At one session, a male phallic symbol was passed around signifying what it means to be a man; they were encouraged to talk about sexual experiences.
When you have the icon in your lap, it's your turn to share.
Those sessions are done whilst everyone is naked. At a certain point in the session, the men are encouraged to touch an adjacent brother between the legs if they so wish (yep!!), and reveal their feelings for their brother Warriors... lol
This really frightens you doesn't it Ursus, so much that you become very effeminate, maybe it is you regressing to that little boy who was intimidated by dad. I don't know but I find this remark very queer(odd). Your giggling is not unusual for someone uncomfortable with their nakedness if front of others. Your doing this with 100 other men.
Another note;
Ursus never did the Warrior Weekend so he is only going by Mark Roggemann testimony and others, he really does not know if they get naked or not. Now mind you they do but he doesn't know.
I googled Mark Roggemann and have not found any significance as of yet that this gentlemen is anything other then a regular Joe.
Robert Bly's, "Iron John" story is used as a bases for the weekend.
I personally have met Robert on several occasions at his hometown in Minnesota and also in Mentone, Alabama with John Lee. John I know well from his time in Georgia and from working with John personally and attending John and Roberts weekend in Mentone every late October.
danny
The above quote from me that Danny is responding to is from the Hyde thread 'HAPA -- an LGAT,' and was originally posted (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=24677&start=45#p310031) on 02 Mar 2008.
· • ·
@Danny: you're really into this stuff, eh? There's a good sprinkling of MKP in the Hyde Schools forum, given that a fair number of the adults in the Hyde community have seen fit to involve themselves with it. Particularly "high ranking" members of the community, lol.
And no, MKP does not "frighten" me, although it does seem rather important to you to characterize me that way. :D
-
I googled Mark Roggemann and have not found any significance as of yet that this gentlemen is anything other then a regular Joe.
Robert Bly's, "Iron John" story is used as a bases for the weekend.
I personally have met Robert on several occasions at his hometown in Minnesota and also in Mentone, Alabama with John Lee. John I know well from his time in Georgia and from working with John personally and attending John and Roberts weekend in Mentone every late October.
danny
Mark Roggeman is a police officer, as well as cult exit-counselor, based in Colorado.
The brief biographical sketch on him at the end of the article (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=24677&start=30#p308485) you quoted from in your post (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30686&p=367213#p367190) above ... reads as follows:
Mark Roggeman has been involved in outreach to those affected by cults and other highdemand groups for a period of 30 years. He has assisted with exit-counseling individuals trapped in cults and provides support for the families with loved ones who are involved in cults. He has served as a police officer in Denver, Colorado for the past 34 years and assists other law-enforcement agencies with information and training on cults.
Mark is currently a part-time missionary with Haven Ministry located in the Denver Area. He has a degree in Criminal Justice and has attended Calvary Chapel Bible College.[/list]
Like I said just a regular, Joe.
-
URSUS YOU FORGOT THIS PART;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Large_Group_Awareness_Training
This article may contain improper references to self-published sources. Please help improve it by removing references to unreliable sources where they are used inappropriately. (March 2008)
No Ursus you forgot to explicitly point this out. OK!!!!!!!
Uhhh, yeah....that pretty much goes along with any "wikipedia" link. Are you not aware of this?
-
Ursus wrote:
@Danny: you're really into this stuff, eh? There's a good sprinkling of MKP in the Hyde Schools forum, given that a fair number of the adults in the Hyde community have seen fit to involve themselves with it. Particularly "high ranking" members of the community, lol.
Danny wrote:
Ursus your predictable.......lol.
Ursus have you done the Warrior Weekend ???????
WOW....Hyde school emplyees, ex-programees and particularly "high ranking" members of the community. What does this mean Ursus, that all the residents at Hyde are sitting around naked touching the privates parts of the student to their left, with the "high ranking" members sitting up in front single handedly showing the way.......lol.
"Please tell me this is not so".
I think Chuck Berry sang a song, "Hand Jiving". Is this how they sing "Jingle Bells" at Hyde.
Ursus:
And no, it doesn't "frighten" me, although it does seem rather important to you to characterize me that way.
Well read your comment, Mr Giggle pants.
danny
-
URSUS YOU FORGOT THIS PART;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Large_Group_Awareness_Training
This article may contain improper references to self-published sources. Please help improve it by removing references to unreliable sources where they are used inappropriately. (March 2008)
No Ursus you forgot to explicitly point this out. OK!!!!!!!
Uhhh, yeah....that pretty much goes along with any "wikipedia" link. Are you not aware of this?
Anne, go to page 5 on this thread and you'll find this response.
No you are not getting my point, your right everyone does understand that wikipedia has this clause, dumbunny.
But what everyone doesn't get here is you do not like to own that your myriad of posts you flood this site with are all just as suspect of flaws.
Now do you get it.......my copy and paste man.
-
Ursus your predictable.....
YOU'RE!!!!!! Contraction of "you" and "are".....thus, "you're"!!! Translation: Ursus you are predictable
English Your vs You're
What's the difference between your and you're? Your presence on this page means you're about to find out.
Your
Your is the second person possessive adjective, used to describe something as belonging to you. Your is nearly always followed by a noun.
What is your name?
Is this your pen?
Your book is on the table.
This is your chair and this is mine.
What happened to your dog?
Your being here is causing some problems.
You're
You're is the contraction of "you are" and is often followed by the present participle (verb form ending in -ing).
You're going to be late.
Is that what you're wearing?
I think you're lying.
If you're ready, we can go.
I can't believe you're a doctor!
When you're my age, you'll understand.
The Bottom Line
The confusion between your and you're occurs because the two words are pronounced pretty much the same.
The ironclad rule - no exceptions - is that if you're able to replace the word with "you are," you're saying you're. Otherwise, your only choice is your.
-
The entirety of that post (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30686&start=60#p367158), as originally posted, follows; sure wouldn't want to leave out some of that context: ;)
URSUS YOU FORGOT THIS PART;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Large_Group_Awareness_Training
This article may contain improper references to self-published sources. Please help improve it by removing references to unreliable sources where they are used inappropriately. (March 2008)
No Ursus you forgot to explicitly point this out. OK!!!!!!!
No, Danny, it's already understood by just about anyone who uses the internet. Now you know.
No you are not getting my point, your right everyone does understand that wikipedia has this clause, dumbass.
But what everyone doesn't get here is you do not like to own that your myriad of posts you flood this site with are all just as suspect of flaws.
Now do you get it.......my copy and paste man.
-
URSUS YOU FORGOT THIS PART;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Large_Group_Awareness_Training
This article may contain improper references to self-published sources. Please help improve it by removing references to unreliable sources where they are used inappropriately. (March 2008)
No Ursus you forgot to explicitly point this out. OK!!!!!!!
Uhhh, yeah....that pretty much goes along with any "wikipedia" link. Are you not aware of this?
Anne, go to page 5 on this thread and you'll find this response.
No you are not getting my point, your right everyone does understand that wikipedia has this clause, dumbunny.
But what everyone doesn't get here is you do not like to own that your myriad of posts you flood this site with are all just as suspect of flaws.
Now do you get it.......my copy and paste man.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Do you hear yourself????
-
@Danny: you're really into this stuff, eh? There's a good sprinkling of MKP in the Hyde Schools forum, given that a fair number of the adults in the Hyde community have seen fit to involve themselves with it. Particularly "high ranking" members of the community, lol.
Ursus your predictable.......lol.
Ursus have you done the Warrior Weekend ???????
WOW....Hyde school emplyees, ex-programees and particularly "high ranking" members of the community. What does this mean Ursus, that all the residents at Hyde are sitting around naked touching the privates parts of the student to their left, with the "high ranking" members sitting up in front single handedly showing the way.......lol.
"Please tell me this is not so".
I think Chuck Berry sang a song, "Hand Jiving". Is this how they sing "Jingle Bells" at Hyde.
Perhaps the Chuck Berry song you meant to refer to was this one (http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKZcLEY2qEY)? ("silver bells hangin' on a string"... :D )
And no, it doesn't "frighten" me, although it does seem rather important to you to characterize me that way.
Well read your comment, Mr Giggle pants.
So tell me, Danny, why is this Mankind Project and their New Warrior Training Adventure such a sacred cow for you?
Also, how did you come to get involved with this organization? Did your AA Sponsor introduce to them, perchance?
-
Ursus wrote:
So tell me, Danny, why is this Mankind Project and their New Warrior Training Adventure such a sacred cow for you?
Danny wrote:
I am impressed that you would put my interest in the Warrior Weekend in such a contexts of a "sacred cow". As I'm sure you know the cow is extremely sacred in many cultures to this day. Prayed to and used as a dowry to acquire a bride, it is also very mythical.
I have one problem though and then I'll answer your question. You have not answered my question that I asked first, "did you attend a Warrior Weekend".
-
Perhaps the Chuck Berry song you meant to refer to was this one? ("silver bells hangin' on a string"... :D )
No I meant Hand-Jive, Johnny Otis's 1958.
Since the only thing you remember concerning the Warrior Weekend were men fondling other men, I felt this song was appropriate for you and your Hyde buddies.
You can stop giggling now.
danny
-
Anne wrote:
Do you hear yourself????[/quote]
Danny wrote:
Tommy can you here meeeeee.........
Ground control to Major Tong..........
yes mrs. douchebag I can and yuor rigkt I've love you long time,,,no no no stop it....ants.
Danny
P.S. excuse me but we have to go home now..... :beat: :beat:
-
Ursus sort of wrote:
Also, how did you come to get involved with this organization (Mankind)? Did your AA Sponsor introduce to them, did Hyde upper echelon management introduce them, did Elan introduce them, did another LGAT introduce them.
Danny wrote:
Ursus No, No, No and No. My brother and I were hanging with some Blackfoot Sioux in the "Badlands" area back in the late 80's, we were being introduced to a ceremony called "sweating". It was after this sweat we were confronted by a chief who asked if we had ever heard of the Mankind Project and The Warrior Weekend. The Chief was asking out of sheer curiosity, someone had told him about it. From that point I looked into it further did not really become all that excited, so I dropped it at that point. Picked it back up when I did some business in Memphis,Tn. Got with a group of fishing buddies as a matter of fact and we did it together. This was some down and out, in your face, I'll kick your ass, blind folded naked, active role playing manly stuff...dude. Definitely not for the effeminate, know what I mean Ursus.
As a matter of fact we had a guy there who refused to get naked so he left, come to find out this guy exposed himself to young girls. Now what is up with that.
Now let me clear up something here, just because I do not agree with your ignorant comments concerning AA principles does not necessarily translate to I'm still a active member of AA. I do not nor have had a sponser in nearly 15 yrs.
Keep trying Ursus.
danny
-
a chief
Hi yuh yuh yuh?
-
So it seems worst case is that LGAT is controversial. It hasnt been found to be abusive by the APA. In fact I believe they defended it at one point. Studies have shown positive change as a result of LGAT's and no significant changes in behavior. So it is fairly benign in nature.
From the conclusion of the paper posted earlier (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30686&start=30#p367103) in this thread, "Pathology as 'Personal Growth': A Participant-Observation Study of Lifespring Training," color emphasis added:
Conclusion
We have argued that while many participants experienced a sense of enhanced well-being as a consequence of the training, these experiences were essentially pathological. First, ego functions were systematically undermined and regression was promoted by environmental structuring, infantilizing of participants and repeated emphasis on submission and surrender. Second, the ideational or interpretive framework provided in the training was also based upon regressive modes of reasoning--the use of all-or-nothing categories, absolutist logic and magical thinking, all of which are consistent with the egocentric thinking of young children. Third, the content of the training stimulated early narcissistic conflicts and defenses, which accounts for the elation and sense of heightened well-being achieved by many participants. The devaluation of objective constraints upon a person's action promoted grandiose fantasies of unlimited power. A corollary to this devaluation of the external world wits that interactions with others lacked substance. People appeared to be interchangeable so that ephemeral, indiscriminate emotional contacts were experienced as profound and meaningful. Identification with Lifespring necessitated considerable idealization so that any threat to this experience was aggressively defended against.[/list]
I identify completely with the article’s pathological explanation for ‘personal growth’, and my experience at Cedu, which is very relatable as Mel Wasserman purchased the rights to use Lifespring there. I Would like to add to this article a perspective that seems amiss. I can only speculate the original intent, but the context seems to be very dependent on the imposition of double binds. I see a lot of focus on regression, catharsis, and transference explanations for pathological change, but the content of the Lifespring training is replete with paradox, the context for double binding. It is interesting in this case that the double bind is imposed incrementally upon the subjects who had already chosen the training, albeit without informed consent.
The implementation of LGAT methods in the troubled teen industry, a clear double bind context that leaves the teen without choice, is a statement from the industry that the intent of therapy is to rob teens of their free will.
I’ll leave this to reference the double bind viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30423&start=0 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30423&start=0) but it is clear that the context is present in the training. Furthermore, in the lifespring training, the three ‘vehicles’ to personal growth are the epitome of Double Bind theory, the ‘Be Spontaneous’ paradox. “The key phrases, which described the vehicle to personal growth, were "submission," "100 percent commitment," and "spontaneity".”
The Be Spontaneous paradox is as close to the heart of Double Bind theory as it gets. The injunction ‘be spontaneous’ (or any other demanding injunction related to spontaneous activity and unconscious processes) in a double bind setting is a cornerstone of the Double Bind theory of schizophrenia as an interactional pathology.
In general I have seen that the Lifespring training ‘teaches’ by placing the subjects in paradoxical ‘no win’ situations. I’m going to place some tidbits from the article below that I feel will identify the double bind and the imposition of paradox as ‘growth’.
Pathology as "Personal Growth": http://www.rickross.com/reference/lifes ... ring4.html (http://www.rickross.com/reference/lifespring/lifespring4.html)
A Participant-Observation Study of Lifespring Training
Psychiatry, Vol 46, August 1983
“We argue that although participants often experience a heightened sense of well-being as a consequence of the training, the phenomenon is essentially pathological. By pathological, we mean that the training systematically undermines ego functioning and promotes regression to the extent that reality testing is significantly impaired.”
“The interpretive framework adopted here is supported by several psychoanalytic premises concerning group behavior. In discussing the relationship between ego functions and group behavior, Freud noted that "intensification of the affects and the inhibition of the intellect" characterized "primitive groups" (1959 p 20). Primitive groups promote the blurring of ego boundaries and psychological merger with the group leader, who serves as an ego ideal for group members. By projecting ego and superego functions, e.g. the regulation and control of impulses, into the leader, members may express infantile aggressive and libidinal drives normally held in constraint. (Kernberg 1980 p212). This psychological state may be described as regressive in that it is reminiscent of the experience of early childhood—the oceanic experience of oneness with the all-good, protective parent who mediates between the child’s immediate needs and the external world.”
“The promise of "personal growth" held out by the organizations and zealous graduates was both nonspecific and unlimited.” [Awake says- This implies a need, by Lifespring , that deception is required in order to function, there is no real informed consent possible.]
“Reasoning and intellectual processes were minimized while affective states were intensified.” [Awake says- Classic theory of hypnosis, and one of the Cedu tools the ‘I and ME’, the overall tool implied splitting one’s self concept of Thinking and Feeling into one where your ‘Thinking” was ‘a lie’ or ‘not really you’, while feeling was really who you are. This ramped up version of Lifespring, Cedu, seems to have wanted to produce individuals who were particularly hypnotically susceptible.}
“Awareness was defined as "understanding things as they are." [Awake says- This statement, taken from the position of submissiveness, implies the Lifespring trainees believe a viewpoint from the trainer that they do not really understand things, and they are not aware. The conscious mind does not keep track of all the messages coming from multiple levels contained within the context of the situation, but unconscious to us, our brains still process and react those messages to create the experience of the individual.]
"Everything has always been available to you. It’s a matter of noticing it, of awareness."
"What am I pretending not to know?" [Awake- A double bind, think about what you are not conscious of]
how to achieve "full value" from the training.[Awake- The deutero- learning message, received outside of conscious awareness, is that the subject will trust the trainer if they are to learn how to gain ‘full value’ because there is no definition of what is to be gained from the ambiguous promise of ‘personal growth’.]
The key phrases, which described the vehicle to personal growth, were "submission," "100 percent commitment," and "spontaneity".
In order to speak, participants had to stand, he acknowledged by the leader and speak into a microphone. The audience was to applaud after the person finished speaking, presumably indicating support for the "risk of sharing."[Awake- expressions of support are directed, in favor of the trainer and participants without regard for the content of the senders message. This is a double bind that makes it impossible to interpret communication as genuine even if that is the true intent. Genuine feeling is construed in favour of the leader under the context.]
What was rewarded by the trainer was compliance or pseudocompliance. Participants who offered critical comments or who suggested a different way of conceptualizing a problem had their statements dismissed were subjected to ridicule or were confused with paradoxical logic. The "dissenter" was generally maneuvered into some form of compliance before being permitted to sit down and receive the applause.
The use of confusing "double talk" was particularly effective in disarming those who threatened to delegitimize the trainer's position. Statements such as "What you think isn't is, and what you think is isn't," or "Well, what is the answer?" were perplexing enough to cause the participant to fatter in uncertainty. The suggestion that the participant was disturbed, confused, "avoiding," or "game-playing" were other tactics used to discredit objecting participants. [Awake- logical arguments are responded with paradox, and the resulting dissociated behaviour of the subject is labelled as manipulative, lying, or crazy. This is a classic example of the Double Bind Theory of Scizophrenia. (Note this concept is a distinct reference to a context that produces the diagnosis of such.)]
participants, become increasingly reliant upon the trainer to interpret reality. [Awake- transference from within the double bind context]
“The trainer began with a discussion of "how we respond to events." He argued that by "resisting events" or "attempting to change them," people merely rely on prior belief systems or "automatic" ways of interpreting the world. This way of responding is a reactive one which ties people to the experience of the past and to unrealistic expectations for the future. The trainer emphasized that "coming from a position of change never works," On the other hand, "submission" to events and acceptance of things as they are results In "creative choice," "awareness," "joy" and "growth." The paradox of this implicitly conservative message was that personal control was promoted through submission or surrender to the existing reality of the trainer.” [Awake- Aside from the noted paradox implied that ‘personal growth comes from submission’ there is another. The beginning of the training required ‘spontaneity’ and it abruptly switches to a contradictory message of ‘getting off automatic’ and dissociating from automatic responses.]
“Shifting from the emphasis upon submission and trust, the trainer suggested that we were totally responsible for all events, in our lives--"100 percent accountable"--including the selection of our parents. An exercise designed to illustrate the theme of "taking full responsibility" involved the use of pairs. Partners were to tell each other of an occasion when each had been victimized. Several people told stories about having been beaten by a parent as a child. We were then instructed to retell the story from a position of 100 percent accountability--in other words, how we "set things up to be that way." [Awake- a sudden shift from ‘submission’ to ‘100% accountability’ with the focus on uncontrollable events. This suggests the intent to double bind the subjects by teaching them there is no right.]
The language of the human potential movement, which provided the "official" lexicon of Lifespring, seemed to exhaust and encompass all of human experience, e.g., "getting off automatic," "going for it," "taking risks," "taking responsibility," and "creating your own reality." These phrases took on an almost magical communicative power within the group.
Exercises which mobilized narcissistic defenses, i.e., feelings of inflated well-being and exaggerated personal power, were alternated with attacking exercises, which were narcissistically injurious. The latter evoked feelings of shame and worthlessness and made the group vulnerable to the judgments of the leader. One example involved a game called "Red and Black," which required the group to divide into two teams and develop strategies, based upon a set of rules, for achieving the greatest number of points. Neither team was able to recognize that the main contingency for getting the maximum number of points was that both teams succeed. Essentially, if one team lost, both lost. And both teams did lose. This exercise could have been an occasion for discussing the cultural context of competition and aspects of our society which make it difficult to identify cooperative contingencies. Instead, the trainer castigated participants, finally stating with disgust, "You all make me sick." Since the exercise was at the close of the evening, we were to go home and reflect upon what we had learned. Many participants were silent and tearful as we closed the evening session. [Awake- To me this represents the point in double binding in which the subject has lost their ‘meta’ perspective over conditions of ‘hurt and rescue’ or ‘help and hurt’. They are taught to be accepting of punishment as ‘love’.]
it soon became apparent that he had decompensated--his speech was incoherent, he was out of contact with reality, and he appeared to be hallucinating. The trainer approached him and told him to stop "game playing." His "other choice" was to "go to a place where they allow people to play crazy games." Patrick merely gazed vacantly at the trainer and continued to mutter Lifespring phrases.[Awake- the subject is threatened with a dispensing of existence with a label of ‘crazy’.]
When it became clear that Patrick was unable to pull himself together, the other participants were asked to leave the room.
In the wake of the morning's events, affective states were intensified and a mood of hysteria was palpable. While loving feelings were directed toward Lifespring, the hostile component of what had been evoked was now directed more intensively toward the participant- researcher. One participant stood and stated, "I've got something to say to Dick. You know, I really hate Dick!" Another participant charged, "You don't give your love, Dick. All I want, Dick, is for you to love. And you hold back your love!" When Dick explained his reactions to the events of the morning, various participants shouted out angrily, "You're coming from your head, stop analyzing, come from your heart."[Awake- The pathology has been learned by the subjects to impose injunctions and beliefs onto their peers that will compound the effect in the social environment. The double bind ‘I demand you love me’ robs the receiver of the option for a genuine response.]
(end of Pathology as "Personal Growth":
A Participant-Observation Study of Lifespring Training
Psychiatry, Vol 46, August 1983
By Janice Haaken, Ph.D. and Richard Adams, Ph.D.)
And for the unquestionable condition of using LGAT in a double bind context all one needs to do is look to the Troubled Teen Industry’s advantage right here viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30423&start=0 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30423&start=0)
.
-
Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
-
Anne wrote:
Do you hear yourself????
Danny wrote:
Tommy can you here meeeeee.........
Ground control to Major Tong..........
yes mrs. douchebag I can and yuor rigkt I've love you long time,,,no no no stop it....ants.
Danny
P.S. excuse me but we have to go home now..... :beat: :beat:[/quote]
Ground control to Major Tong..........
????
Where the HELL do you get your lyrics? :beat:
-
Do you hear yourself????
Tommy can you here meeeeee.........
Ground control to Major Tong..........
yes mrs. douchebag I can and yuor rigkt I've love you long time,,,no no no stop it....ants.
Danny
P.S. excuse me but we have to go home now..... :beat: :beat:
Ground control to Major Tong..........
????
Where the HELL do you get your lyrics? :beat:
:D Flash back to the past!! ...The first one is from the title track to The Who's rock opera "Tommy (http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommy_%28album%29)." The second is from David Bowie's "Space Oddity (http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Oddity_%28song%29)." Older and newer versions from YouTube:
- The Who - Tommy Can You Hear Me?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8tR2qKrWyg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8tR2qKrWyg)
[/li][/list]
- The Who- Overture (Tommy)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ce2Bc3lGG7c (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ce2Bc3lGG7c)
[/li][/list]
- David Bowie- Space Oddity Original Video (1969)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D67kmFzSh_o (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D67kmFzSh_o)
[/li][/list]
- David Bowie "Space Oddity" (1975?)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ssnxo4lNp8w (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ssnxo4lNp8w)
[/li][/list]
...And some more goodies from "Tommy," just 'cuz I ran across them whilst looking for the above:
- The Who - I'm Free (1969)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_CXaeN5QNU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_CXaeN5QNU)
[/li][/list]
- Tommy - I'm Free - Roger Daltrey (The Who) (from the movie)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGa70tVYVKo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGa70tVYVKo)
[/li][/list]
- The Who See Me Feel Me Woodstock 1969 (Director's cut)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7AHblQ3_oM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7AHblQ3_oM)
[/li][/list]
- THE WHO - See Me, Feel Me - Listening to You (1975)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QV_9pn7MGUo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QV_9pn7MGUo)
[/li][/list]
-
Also, how did you come to get involved with this organization? Did your AA Sponsor introduce to them, perchance?
Also, how did you come to get involved with this organization (Mankind)? Did your AA Sponsor introduce to them, did Hyde upper echelon management introduce them, did Elan introduce them, did another LGAT introduce them.
Ursus No, No, No and No. My brother and I were hanging with some Blackfoot Sioux in the "Badlands" area back in the late 80's, we were being introduced to a ceremony called "sweating". It was after this sweat we were confronted by a chief who asked if we had ever heard of the Mankind Project and The Warrior Weekend. The Chief was asking out of sheer curiosity, someone had told him about it. From that point I looked into it further did not really become all that excited, so I dropped it at that point. Picked it back up when I did some business in Memphis,Tn. Got with a group of fishing buddies as a matter of fact and we did it together. This was some down and out, in your face, I'll kick your ass, blind folded naked, active role playing manly stuff...dude. Definitely not for the effeminate, know what I mean Ursus.
As a matter of fact we had a guy there who refused to get naked so he left, come to find out this guy exposed himself to young girls. Now what is up with that.
Now let me clear up something here, just because I do not agree with your ignorant comments concerning AA principles does not necessarily translate to I'm still a active member of AA. I do not nor have had a sponser in nearly 15 yrs.
Keep trying Ursus.
Lol. I'm not sure why you assumed I was trying to "confront you." I just asked you two questions, pretty benign ones at that, I would have thought...
I asked about the AA Sponsor 'cuz that has been the route of introduction for some folk. In fact, I seem to remember that Michael Scinto even got introduced to MKP via his Sponsor, though I might be remembering that wrong, or missing some important context.
Tell me, what exactly are you trying to imply by this statement, if anything:
"As a matter of fact we had a guy there who refused to get naked so he left, come to find out this guy exposed himself to young girls. Now what is up with that."[/list]
Do you think that men who do not feel comfortable getting naked with dozens of other men and doing "some down and out, in your face, I'll kick your ass, blind folded naked, active role playing manly stuff" ... are more likely to be sexual deviants? Is that pretty much the consensus these days? Jes askin', I'm curious how the "inner circle" sees this phenomenon...
Also, was this guy someone you actually met, or someone the others told you about?
-
Ursus wrote:
Lol. I'm not sure why you assumed I was trying to "confront you." I just asked you two questions, pretty benign ones at that, I would have thought...
I asked about the AA Sponsor 'cuz that has been the route of introduction for some folk. In fact, I seem to remember that Michael Scinto even got introduced to MKP via his Sponsor, though I might be remembering that wrong, or missing some important context.
Tell me, what exactly are you trying to imply by this statement, if anything:
"As a matter of fact we had a guy there who refused to get naked so he left, come to find out this guy exposed himself to young girls. Now what is up with that."[/list]
Do you think that men who do not feel comfortable getting naked with dozens of other men and doing "some down and out, in your face, I'll kick your ass, blind folded naked, active role playing manly stuff" ... are more likely to be sexual deviants? Is that pretty much the consensus these days? Jes askin', I'm curious how the "inner circle" sees this phenomenon...
Also, was this guy someone you actually met, or someone the others told you about?
Danny wrote:
Ursus all these questions are good but I still have one problem, you have not answered the question I asked several posts ago. Here it is again, "did you attend the Warrior Weekend". Please do answer before you ask more questions.
danny
-
Danny B touched my junk liberally. He strapped me in to his Hi yuh Mobile and he
couldn't keep his offensive hands off of me. He was performing many red flag touches. I couldn't believe what the fuck was going on. I told Danny B the city would not approve
of a rich jew touching an underage kid for free. Can you believe it? Danny B did all this. He picked me off the street, strapped my arms and legs down in the Hi yuh Mobile's passenger seat, and just wouldn't stop fondling my cock'n'balls. They definately were red flag touches. The goddamn referee he had in the back seat kept on raising up this red flag every time he touched my junk but did Danny B care? NO WAY! He just kept on doing it. I couldn't believe what the fuck was going on, indeed. I pleaded with Danny B but to no avail. I told him the city would not approve of such a wealthy man touching an underage kid like me (at the time I was 13) without at least compensating me for the trauma and the use of my body as his own personal plaything.
This got to him, worrying about his image. He continued to fondle me, all the while ignoring
the referee's red flags. Then he drove the Hi yuh to my house and ejected the seat I was in! It was amazing. But surprisingly, after I woke up the next morning, my bank account had $150k in it!!! Can you believe it?
-
"Red and Black," which required the group to divide into two teams and develop strategies, based upon a set of rules, for achieving the greatest number of points. Neither team was able to recognize that the main contingency for getting the maximum number of points was that both teams succeed.
[/i][/color][/b]
At CEDU RMA we called it the "RED - Green" game in the summit workshop. It pretty much aggravated the hell out of everyone. I am reading my summit journal now and will write more later.
Which eventually lead to the following writing assignment:
2 pages of
"How the Red Green game is a perfect mirror of what I do every day and how you relate to others."
At Cross Creek, it was called the Red/Black game. We also had a 2 page writing assignment to, but I believe it was in relation to how our interaction was with our parents. Man, I hated those assignments.
-
"Red and Black," which required the group to divide into two teams and develop strategies, based upon a set of rules, for achieving the greatest number of points. Neither team was able to recognize that the main contingency for getting the maximum number of points was that both teams succeed.
[/i][/color][/b]
At CEDU RMA we called it the "RED - Green" game in the summit workshop. It pretty much aggravated the hell out of everyone. I am reading my summit journal now and will write more later.
Which eventually lead to the following writing assignment:
2 pages of
"How the Red Green game is a perfect mirror of what I do every day and how you relate to others."
At Cross Creek, it was called the Red/Black game. We also had a 2 page writing assignment to, but I believe it was in relation to how our interaction was with our parents. Man, I hated those assignments.
I am curious as to how closely it mirrored the original as presented by Lifespring ("Red and Black"). The complete paper from which the innermost quote above was taken from is posted earlier (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30686&start=30#p367103) in this thread...
-
Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
-
:bump:
-
Danny B touched my junk liberally. He strapped me in to his Hi yuh Mobile and he
couldn't keep his offensive hands off of me. He was performing many red flag touches. I couldn't believe what the fuck was going on. I told Danny B the city would not approve
of a rich jew touching an underage kid for free. Can you believe it? Danny B did all this. He picked me off the street, strapped my arms and legs down in the Hi yuh Mobile's passenger seat, and just wouldn't stop fondling my cock'n'balls. They definately were red flag touches. The goddamn referee he had in the back seat kept on raising up this red flag every time he touched my junk but did Danny B care? NO WAY! He just kept on doing it. I couldn't believe what the fuck was going on, indeed. I pleaded with Danny B but to no avail. I told him the city would not approve of such a wealthy man touching an underage kid like me (at the time I was 13) without at least compensating me for the trauma and the use of my body as his own personal plaything.
This got to him, worrying about his image. He continued to fondle me, all the while ignoring
the referee's red flags. Then he drove the Hi yuh to my house and ejected the seat I was in! It was amazing. But surprisingly, after I woke up the next morning, my bank account had $150k in it!!! Can you believe it?
Did you learn this at New Warriors Training, :shamrock: Li'l sidekick :shamrock: ?