Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: sad on June 02, 2010, 11:26:00 AM
-
Reading through many posts and threads here I am horrified at the abuse that occurs at certain facilities! My heart goes out to all those who have had to endure such cruelty. I do hope you have successfully prosecuted your abusers.
Are there any links to lawsuits filed/settled/won?
Is there a list of 'good' facilities?
-
No. Not that market themselves as "residential treatment centers". There are alternative boarding schools, like the ones your daughter's school is talking about, which look to be a net "meh, it's a boarding school, she goes there, grows up, gets an education" which are only partially isolated. There are psychiatric wards, and the juvenile justice system, both dealing with social necessities.
But the kind of place you're looking for- a place where you can just send your kid to some remote corner of Utah, not have to worry, and have her mysteriously fixed when she gets out- it not only doesn't exist, it can't.
Is she self-harming? Then she needs a good, long talk with a real psychiatrist, ASAP. You said no criminal record, so that I'm guessing precludes serious drug use or violent instabilities. So what the hell's the problem, then?
You know what? Let *her* talk to us. Because if nothing else we can say "Hey, listen, things have gotten to the point where your mother is seriously considering sending you somewhere really, really bad, so the two of you HAVE to be patient with each other, or REALLY BAD SHIT is going to happen- oh and here's 1000 pages of really bad shit".
-
Are there any links to lawsuits that have been successfully settled/won against facilities that have caused harm to the children ?
-
Are there any links to lawsuits that have been successfully settled/won against facilities that have caused harm to the children ?
A few. Two from my time in Straight (early 80s) sued and won. Most of the time it's swept under the rug. Quite a few have been hiked to death in wilderness camps, with varying degrees of accountability (usually minimal, if at all). Some have been restrained to death. And then there's the ever-growing list of suicides. These shitholes really are no place for anyone, let alone someone who is genuinely troubled to begin with.
-
Quite a number. Thing is, most lawsuits end in settlement, or are never made public.
Hidden Lake Academy had a high-profile class-action lawsuit against it; that's all over the HLA board. viewforum.php?f=41 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewforum.php?f=41)
WWASPS has been sued repeatedly. viewtopic.php?t=21918&start=13 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=21918&start=13)
CEDU was pretty much sued out of existence. http://www.mountain-news.com/articles/2 ... /news1.txt (http://www.mountain-news.com/articles/2005/03/31/news/news1.txt)
Aspen's been sued and lost, and this Sagewalk article speaks for itself. http://www.momlogic.com/2010/04/trouble ... harges.php (http://www.momlogic.com/2010/04/troubled_teens_death_possible_homicide_charges.php) Mount Bachelor Academy also got shut down for child abuse. http://kohd.com/news/local/147574 (http://kohd.com/news/local/147574)
So was Straight, Inc, but that died in the 80s, spawning a number of spin-offs, but that's a different branch of torture.
The problem is that these places come and go like vermin. One goes down, the program owners relocate somewhere else, and another pops up. The legal process is often too slow, and the kids often take years to realize "wait, what happened to me in there was real abuse".
-
Oh, and there's Peninsula Village! I almost forgot about that place. A regular here, ZenAgent, sued them for what they did to his daughter (it's really unspeakable shit), but I'm not entirely sure how that ended.
http://wiki.fornits.com/index.php?title=The_Village (http://wiki.fornits.com/index.php?title=The_Village)
-
So was Straight, Inc, but that died in the 80s, spawning a number of spin-offs, but that's a different branch of torture.
1993 was the official end, IIRC.
The problem is that these places come and go like vermin. One goes down, the program owners relocate somewhere else, and another pops up. The legal process is often too slow, and the kids often take years to realize "wait, what happened to me in there was real abuse".
Yup. Or they just change names or shuffle some staff around claiming that all the "bad apples" are now gone.
-
This'll be my third post in a row, and I don't usually do that, but I keep on thinking of more and more links to share. There's just so much of it.
Phil Elberg is somewhat of a folk hero around here. KIDS is a Straight spinoff. http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/2008-2009/power ... _kids.html (http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/2008-2009/powerless/phil_elberg_and_kids.html)
Note the two links in my signature. Remember, most of these suits are kept completely private- the program doesn't want the information getting out, the victim wants to preserve his or her privacy, and the judge doesn't want the media sensation interfering with the trial. Hence: Information blackout. But the lawyers know. And two of them are openly advertising, knowing that they can make money from more of these lawsuits. Remember, we're talking about lawyers here; most of them wouldn't do anything unless they got money out of it, and the only way for them to make money is if they could prove abuse in a court of law.
And remember, proving abuse in court is one of the hardest things to do. First you need to prove that things happened a certain way- and getting witnesses is hard as fuck here, especially when the program will character-assassinate all of them the moment they hit the stand- then you need to prove it, in fact, was abuse, and this is harder than it seems. Oh and you need to pray to fucking God that the judge isn't amicable towards the program. (Think I'm kidding? The Judge Rotenberg Center, one of the worst shitholes ever to be conceived, named itself after the judge that let it continue to exist.)
But with all those hurdles, these self-interested lawyers remain confident that abuse is happening, to the point where they can prove it in court!
-
Thanks for the links; I will take a look at them.
-
Enjoy the nightmares.
Ready to pull your daughter out yet?
-
Reading through many posts and threads here I am horrified at the abuse that occurs at certain facilities! My heart goes out to all those who have had to endure such cruelty. I do hope you have successfully prosecuted your abusers.
Are there any links to lawsuits filed/settled/won?
Is there a list of 'good' facilities?
The main site that documented all the lawsuits (isaccorp.org) is offline at the moment but there have indeed been many. To answer your question as to whether there are any good ones... Sure. But it's impossible to tell the good ones from the bad just by looking at them. Isaccorp also has warning signs which you can look at which are mirrorred here:
http://www.nospank.net/caica01.htm (http://www.nospank.net/caica01.htm)
Look. My advice is that what your kid needs is guidance from you and love. I know it might seem like you tried everything but there are real options at home to consider. In my view a residential program is not worth the risk and there are no independent studies, not a single one, showing that wilderness or residential care actually work. Some more information on that here:
http://astart.fmhi.usf.edu/ (http://astart.fmhi.usf.edu/)
And by all means, whatever your decision, keep us all informed. Many of us have been through bad programs and know the sorts of things to look for and the signs of a bad program.
-
Sad ... as you can see, "Pile" is such a positive, helpful source of unbiased information. Still, I hold to what I said before.
To make your case for your local school paying for a placement other than from their state list, you should start with thte information/assessment and recommendations from the psychologist and/or licensed therapist who has spent time with her at the present wilderness program. That likely will support something more intensive, and a better fit than what the state lists. Also compile relevant facts, like space availability, program design/structure (including presence or absence of weekend therapeutic activities) for them as well as for other places you might prefer. Finally, compile corresponding data for the type of student each place takes (including severity of problem) and average time to complete their program -- and I do mean complete, which is not the same as average stay. Put all together, I think it a good chance that the better programs will have shorter stays, so would cost your local schools less in the long run. (Actually, an average stay at one of the most expensive good girls facilities would cost less than an average stay at H.H.) In the end, you may want to chip in some small percentage if that is what it would take to get the right thing, but making the case to your school ought not be too tough. Worst case, a lawyer could help (though education lawyers working for parents are scarce in some areas).
-
you should start with thte information/assessment and recommendations from the psychologist and/or licensed therapist who has spent time with her at the present wilderness program.
Sure, except for the part where the "licensed therapist" or the program is getting a fat kickback from the place they convince you to send her next. And they WILL try to convince you of that, and if my guess is correct they already are. "Where can I send her next" and asking how you can manipulate (<-- See that word? Bet you've heard it before!) your school district into rejecting its own alternatives in favor of where the program told you about.
Think there was a chance of them saying "No, it's okay, your daughter should come home now"? Protip: They never, ever do. Too much money involved.
Also compile relevant facts, like space availability, program design/structure (including presence or absence of weekend therapeutic activities) for them as well as for other places you might prefer. Finally, compile corresponding data for the type of student each place takes (including severity of problem) and average time to complete their program -- and I do mean complete, which is not the same as average stay.
Except for the fact that the programs themselves are making this stuff up, often out of whole cloth. Sure, we have a ____, the kids use it every day, come and take a look! Then find out that it was never used or never existed at all. And the "time to complete" is until the money runs out, practically every time, or they treat her as "unmanageable" and toss her out the door into some psych ward, without even telling you for a while. Or she runs away and is never found, we've had a few of those. After you've spent all that money and put all your faith in them to do the right thing, the program just changed its name and location again. Oh and your daughter ends up severly traumatized and quite literally never forgives you for it. Surprise! Just don't say you weren't warned...
-
Reading through many posts and threads here I am horrified at the abuse that occurs at certain facilities! My heart goes out to all those who have had to endure such cruelty. I do hope you have successfully prosecuted your abusers.
Are there any links to lawsuits filed/settled/won?
Is there a list of 'good' facilities?
Nobody here has won any lawsuits. Think about it for a second. Child abuse is illegal already, and all it takes is a tip to Child Protective Services and they will be out investigating in force. Why haven't anybody here reported their abuse? This is because they were not really 'abused', using the legal definition of the word and also the average poster here is talking about treatment programs that are long out of business because they were in 25 years ago. To be blunt the stories you read here are no longer relevant to the contemporary adolescent treatment industry. These are people who want to indict an entire industry based on their sole experience decades ago in programs that have long ceased to exist. But they use plenty of propaganda to suggest otherwise, don't let the scare tactics make you afraid to get the help you need for your family because you might regret it. What if you could have helped your kid but chose not to because of the lies posted here? That wouldn't be good now would it.
-
I think it depends on your definition. I am willing to believe that some places are not abusive in the physical or sexual sense. But there is a wider justice issue here. The first question is whether detaining anyone for an extended period of time when they have not committed a crime that they have been legitmately tired for is OK. I would say that it certainly is not. So from that perspective then this industry is generally not moral in any place that claims to live by the general principals of modern democracy.
In the event that children end up in this industry because they have genuinely broken a law and been legally tried, it becomes a question of whether it is humane, effective and likely to prevent re offence. boot camps have not met the test of being humane. In the infamous Marin Lee Anderson case as well as Gina Score, and so many others the testimony of their peers has consistently shown that they were not victims of the abuse of isolated "bad eggs" but the casualties of a system designed to be cruel and excessive in its punishment.
For those offenders who end up in privately owned and run places there is the question of whether private operators should be allowed to profit from punishment. I dont see how this is OK. When anyone is jailed the penalty is supposed to be loss of liberty. It is meant to be a last resort measure to keep society safe. These young people loose far more than liberty and somebody makes a profit to the damage that is done to them as human beings. It is also worth examining what these so called criminals are jailed for. In the case of many their crimes are petty at best. I dont think it is reasonable to say as in the case of Gina Score that her theft of beanie babies made her enough of a danger to society that the streets needed to be kept safe from her. I certainy find it unfathomable that the cost of a trinket is worth a human life. There is also no proof that imprisonment or "wilderness jail" makes any kid less likely to offend. If anything some studies have shown the opposite. So i Dont think the industry can justify itself as good here either. Not for the offender and not for society.
There is also a wider cultural context. Western society has somehow fallen in love with the theatre of cruelty that is reality TV, uglyness and punishment and indignity is celebrated and complex issues are presented as simple. On a recent episode of Dr Phil 2 parents were booed and jeered when they opted not to send their badly behved daughters to turn about ranch. Apparently working out a way to live together as a family made these people weak. it was preferable to send 2 underage girls to a place where children are tied together like horses. Even shows like survivor ultimately celebrate turning on your friends, stabbing each other in the back and generally behaving like an asshole to get ahead. the weak and kind are "losers".
The best anyone can hope for in sending their kid away to be "treated" is that their liberty and right to freedom of thought and movement is the only thing that is taken away. The industry knows this but also knows that as long as western culture feels that tough is right and parental fear and love is exploitable it can make a profit
-
Reading through many posts and threads here I am horrified at the abuse that occurs at certain facilities! My heart goes out to all those who have had to endure such cruelty. I do hope you have successfully prosecuted your abusers.
Are there any links to lawsuits filed/settled/won?
Is there a list of 'good' facilities?
Nobody here has won any lawsuits.
I have. Several from KIDS of bergen county have. With most others the statute of limitations has expired (very short)... Unless you can trick a program into suing you and turn the tables. Many who were in WWASP programs are currently involved in a lawsuit. I know somebody was/is suing PFC. I know somebody was/is suing Sue Scheff and Focal point Academy. I know Whitmore Academy was sued successfully as well as it's owner, Cheryl Sudweeks, good friend of Sue Scheff, being successfully prosecuted for child abuse (copped a plea). Mount Batchelors Academy, an Aspen program, wasn't sued (yet) but it was shut down by the state after evidence was found which very likely could result in several lawsuits. Forcing kids to give lapdances to a song about handjobs in an "emotional growth" seminar is indeed a contemporary event (this was in time magazine). These are just a select few. Most of the people involved of these lawsuits either were or are currently posters here.
-
Sad, As you can see there are very few law suits and even fewer successful ones compared to the hundreds of programs who help 10’s of thousands of kids get back onto a healthy path each year. The majority of lawsuits are parents trying to get their deposits back or the school suing the parents for payment which is understandable since there is a lot of money involved.
...
-
Sad, As you can see there are very few law suits and even fewer successful ones compared to the hundreds of programs who help 10’s of thousands of kids get back onto a healthy path each year. The majority of lawsuits are parents trying to get their deposits back or the school suing the parents for payment which is understandable since there is a lot of money involved.
...
Sad as you can see it may take up to 20 years for the Kool-Aid to wear off and the P.T.S.D. to come out.
By then it is too late to sue.
I will be working to change this legislation.
Pedophile Catholic Priests are being "crucified" left and right.
It is only a matter of time. :soapbox:
-
Sad, As you can see there are very few law suits and even fewer successful ones compared to the hundreds of programs who help 10’s of thousands of kids get back onto a healthy path each year. The majority of lawsuits are parents trying to get their deposits back or the school suing the parents for payment which is understandable since there is a lot of money involved.
...
Sad as you can see it may take up to 20 years for the Kool-Aid to wear off and the P.T.S.D. to come out.
By then it is too late to sue.
I will be working to change this legislation.
Pedophile Catholic Priests are being "crucified" left and right.
It is only a matter of time. :soapbox:
Programs have been going for over 40 years and the kool-aid still seems to be working. We havent seen kids coming out against the schools they went to. In fact it is just the opposite, many schools are seeing an increase in reunions. The kids are moving on and are very successful and happy to return to visit with old staff and students.
...
-
Sad, As you can see there are very few law suits and even fewer successful ones compared to the hundreds of programs who help 10’s of thousands of kids get back onto a healthy path each year. The majority of lawsuits are parents trying to get their deposits back or the school suing the parents for payment which is understandable since there is a lot of money involved.
...
Sad as you can see it may take up to 20 years for the Kool-Aid to wear off and the P.T.S.D. to come out.
By then it is too late to sue.
I will be working to change this legislation.
Pedophile Catholic Priests are being "crucified" left and right.
It is only a matter of time. :soapbox:
Programs have been going for over 40 years and the kool-aid still seems to be working. We havent seen kids coming out against the schools they went to. In fact it is just the opposite, many schools are seeing an increase in reunions. The kids are moving on and are very successful and happy to return to visit with old staff and students.
...
Whooter, I have a question for you: How long have you been smoking crack? Has it been
so long that you've lost all touch with reality? Must be. You really should stop before it's too late.
-
Whooter, I have a question for you: How long have you been smoking crack? Has it been
so long that you've lost all touch with reality? Must be. You really should stop before it's too late.
Lol. That Funny!! I forgot that most fornits regulars get all their information from fornits. If you want to branch out and get a more balanced perspective what you can do is choose a program and then check the fornits wiki pages and they typically have links to facebook or myspace pages where alumni/graduates connect with one another, talk about their experiences and plan reunions etc.
Here are a couple at random:
Sample 1 (http://http://www.facebook.com/group.php?&gid=2486451855)
Sample 2 (http://http://www.facebook.com/group.php?&gid=47635029960)
...
-
I do not get all my information from Fornits. I got it from Experience. Unfortunate experience. Then, I got more experience working at runaway shelters... add a bit of education on emotional/child development, psychology (some good, a lot of BS), and pedagogy.... and then throw Fornits into the mix. Most people here have minds, raped or not. So, yes, I can discern what is meaningful or not. I also have read many useful articles here that have evolved my perspectives, both politically and socio-culturally. The articles have provided a nice counter to many of my more conventional beliefs. These conventional views are EVERYWHERE so it is worthwhile to visit a place that challenges accepted notions. (Like all drug treatment is "good" and any place that helps "troubled teens" is credible and AA is the Only Way, and White Men can't jump, and Jesus Saves.)
What is meaningful is sharing experiences. What is not meaningful is hearing from someone whose heart is detached from his body.
I know a lot of survivors who have never visited Fornits and view CEDU as a cult but remain friends with those who take a different view simply because it was a very singular shared experience. They've all been abducted by aliens, so they all understand Twilight Zone in a way "civilians" don't.
But - just because people rationalize the program does not mean it is good. I know a lot of people who insist Cedu "saved" them even when their lives do not testify to that. I know others who HATE Cedu who are successful. And there are others who lock it in a box. They did not like it or see its value, but they will not open Pandora's box. They want to leave it in the past, unexamined. That's fine, too. I needed to examine.
Whatever, the fact is you remain on this site. It is odd... you spend A LOT of time here. If you are a paid pro program tool, and really believe this site is for losers, why visit it? Obviously, if Fornits is for losers, it is not a threat to your beloved programs, so why not spend your time amongst your people, Cultists, KoolAid Drinkers, and Profiteers?
-
Whatever, the fact is you remain on this site. It is odd... you spend A LOT of time here. If you are a paid pro program tool, and really believe this site is for losers, why visit it? Obviously, if Fornits is for losers, it is not a threat to your beloved programs, so why not spend your time amongst your people, Cultists, KoolAid Drinkers, and Profiteers?
'Cuz... he's... got... stocks.
-
I do not get all my information from Fornits. I got it from Experience. Unfortunate experience. Then, I got more experience working at runaway shelters... add a bit of education on emotional/child development, psychology (some good, a lot of BS), and pedagogy.... and then throw Fornits into the mix. Most people here have minds, raped or not. So, yes, I can discern what is meaningful or not. I also have read many useful articles here that have evolved my perspectives, both politically and socio-culturally. The articles have provided a nice counter to many of my more conventional beliefs. These conventional views are EVERYWHERE so it is worthwhile to visit a place that challenges accepted notions. (Like all drug treatment is "good" and any place that helps "troubled teens" is credible and AA is the Only Way, and White Men can't jump, and Jesus Saves.)
What is meaningful is sharing experiences. What is not meaningful is hearing from someone whose heart is detached from his body.
I know a lot of survivors who have never visited Fornits and view CEDU as a cult but remain friends with those who take a different view simply because it was a very singular shared experience. They've all been abducted by aliens, so they all understand Twilight Zone in a way "civilians" don't.
But - just because people rationalize the program does not mean it is good. I know a lot of people who insist Cedu "saved" them even when their lives do not testify to that. I know others who HATE Cedu who are successful. And there are others who lock it in a box. They did not like it or see its value, but they will not open Pandora's box. They want to leave it in the past, unexamined. That's fine, too. I needed to examine.
Whatever, the fact is you remain on this site. It is odd... you spend A LOT of time here. If you are a paid pro program tool, and really believe this site is for losers, why visit it? Obviously, if Fornits is for losers, it is not a threat to your beloved programs, so why not spend your time amongst your people, Cultists, KoolAid Drinkers, and Profiteers?
Most people get their information from multiple sources. It’s a good way to verify the credibility of the information (or establish a bench mark) and to lay a solid foundation on which to support your opinions. Also our opinions are forged and based on our experiences in life. You mention yourself that you have had mostly negative experiences with programs (as have most of the posters here) so this is how they view programs. This is why you hold the opinions you do.
I have seen both negative and positive results from programs so I have a more balanced and broader perspective than most posters here. I think you can admit yourself that not many posters here talk about the positive aspects of the program because they have never experienced it. Its not their fault.
I don’t think it is right for you to refer to them as losers, though, Samara.
The fact that I am able to step back and see both sides of the issue doesnt mean I like all programs. Most readers here know that I dont support all programs.
Your point about CEDU I agree with. I don’t think people from Tranquility Bay are getting together to celebrate their time there. They may come together to try to rationalize their time there. But there are programs which have a very active alumni which meet to celebrate and catch up on how everyone is doing.
...
-
W: First you say most people here get their info from a single source - Fornits, and now you say "most people get their information from multiple sources." No shit, say it the first time. Don't repeat what I already said, which was to disagree with your initial statement.
Second, I do not think people here are losers and I know you are smart enough to INFER that your superior condescending attitude is the perspective I am addressing. ("Fornits for losers" being your real perspective rather than then the false "I examine all sides" persona.) But you are on Fornits. And the programs you are affiliated with are on this board.
Third, my experiences at CEDU were duplicated in CEDU Spin-offs run by the same staff. I also know people who have gone into various other programs (not just on this board) - the methodology was the same. By nature, I seek fair and balanced and alwasy give benefit of doubt. But, so far, I have not seen evidence to dispute that TBSs are systmeically flawed on a macro level.
I hope I can exercise the discipline to disengage from conversing with you. Your rep precedes you for your pro program under pretenses of fair and balanced BS spin job. I totally get why people would love to kick your ass with your "white-house-is-black-and-a smile" persona.
-
W: First you say most people here get their info from a single source - Fornits, and now you say "most people get their information from multiple sources." No shit, say it the first time. Don't repeat what I already said, which was to disagree with your initial statement.
Second, I do not think people here are losers and I know you are smart enough to INFER that your superior condescending attitude is the perspective I am addressing. ("Fornits for losers" being your real perspective rather than then the false "I examine all sides" persona.) But you are on Fornits. And the programs you are affiliated with are on this board.
Third, my experiences at CEDU were duplicated in CEDU Spin-offs run by the same staff. I also know people who have gone into various other programs (not just on this board) - the methodology was the same. By nature, I seek fair and balanced and alwasy give benefit of doubt. But, so far, I have not seen evidence to dispute that TBSs are systmeically flawed on a macro level.
I hope I can exercise the discipline to disengage from conversing with you. Your rep precedes you for your pro program under pretenses of fair and balanced BS spin job. I totally get why people would love to kick your ass with your "white-house-is-black-and-a smile" persona.
Wow. Nicely done. :notworthy:
-
W: First you say most people here get their info from a single source - Fornits, and now you say "most people get their information from multiple sources." No shit, say it the first time. Don't repeat what I already said, which was to disagree with your initial statement.
This should help: Most people here on fornits get their info from a single source. “Most people (outside of fornits) get their information from multiple sources.
Second, I do not think people here are losers and I know you are smart enough to INFER that your superior condescending attitude is the perspective I am addressing. ("Fornits for losers" being your real perspective rather than then the false "I examine all sides" persona.) But you are on Fornits. And the programs you are affiliated with are on this board.
Thanks for clearing that up and stating they were your words, not mine. I don’t believe in calling people names, especially losers. It doesn’t accomplish anything positive. Your post reads as condescending, Samara.
Third, my experiences at CEDU were duplicated in CEDU Spin-offs run by the same staff. I also know people who have gone into various other programs (not just on this board) - the methodology was the same. By nature, I seek fair and balanced and alwasy give benefit of doubt. But, so far, I have not seen evidence to dispute that TBSs are systmeically flawed on a macro level.
Samara, I have read about CEDU and understand the abuse that occurred there. But the difference is I also have seen kids who did very well at other programs so I speak openly about them too. You don’t or cannot do this (and I think this bothers you for some reason) If you had been exposed to the positive side of programs you would see my point of view. But you have not and I understand and respect the fact that you do not have this advantage.
I hope I can exercise the discipline to disengage from conversing with you. Your rep precedes you for your pro program under pretenses of fair and balanced BS spin job. I totally get why people would love to kick your ass with your "white-house-is-black-and-a smile" persona.
I am sorry you feel this way. The name calling is unfortunate and indicates to me that you are closed minded and cannot (or are unable) see my point of view. Conversely I don’t wish anyone to kick your ass because you cannot accept my point of view. I accept that you have your reasons for accepting only one side of the issue. I hope someday that you meet some kids who were helped by the industry and you enjoy the perspective that I do.
...
-
Sad, As you can see there are very few law suits and even fewer successful ones compared to the hundreds of programs who help 10’s of thousands of kids get back onto a healthy path each year. The majority of lawsuits are parents trying to get their deposits back or the school suing the parents for payment which is understandable since there is a lot of money involved.
...
Sad as you can see it may take up to 20 years for the Kool-Aid to wear off and the P.T.S.D. to come out.
Who are you talking to, stop trying to fight your battles with whooter at the expence of the poster, Felice.
By then it is too late to sue.
I will be working to change this legislation.
Pedophile Catholic Priests are being "crucified" left and right.
It is only a matter of time. :soapbox:
There is no SOL on Catholic Priests, Elan already covered there ass it is no longer the same company. Same people working for a different company. Which 10 years ago might not have been the case Matt and Felice.
Instead of jumping on Whooters case and mine spend a little more time trying to close the present Elan down you definitely didn't get the last one.
Thanks Felice.....
Danny
-
Sad, As you can see there are very few law suits and even fewer successful ones compared to the hundreds of programs who help 10’s of thousands of kids get back onto a healthy path each year. The majority of lawsuits are parents trying to get their deposits back or the school suing the parents for payment which is understandable since there is a lot of money involved.
...
Sad as you can see it may take up to 20 years for the Kool-Aid to wear off and the P.T.S.D. to come out.
Who are you talking to, stop trying to fight your battles with whooter at the expence of the poster, Felice.
By then it is too late to sue.
I will be working to change this legislation.
Pedophile Catholic Priests are being "crucified" left and right.
It is only a matter of time. :soapbox:
There is no SOL on Catholic Priests, Elan already covered there ass it is no longer the same company. Same people working for a different company. Which 10 years ago might not have been the case Matt and Felice.
Instead of jumping on Whooters case and mine spend a little more time trying to close the present Elan down you definitely didn't get the last one.
Thanks Felice.....
Danny
-
W: First you say most people here get their info from a single source - Fornits, and now you say "most people get their information from multiple sources." No shit, say it the first time. Don't repeat what I already said, which was to disagree with your initial statement.
Second, I do not think people here are losers and I know you are smart enough to INFER that your superior condescending attitude is the perspective I am addressing. ("Fornits for losers" being your real perspective rather than then the false "I examine all sides" persona.) But you are on Fornits. And the programs you are affiliated with are on this board.
Third, my experiences at CEDU were duplicated in CEDU Spin-offs run by the same staff. I also know people who have gone into various other programs (not just on this board) - the methodology was the same. By nature, I seek fair and balanced and alwasy give benefit of doubt. But, so far, I have not seen evidence to dispute that TBSs are systmeically flawed on a macro level.
I hope I can exercise the discipline to disengage from conversing with you. Your rep precedes you for your pro program under pretenses of fair and balanced BS spin job. I totally get why people would love to kick your ass with your "white-house-is-black-and-a smile" persona.
[/quote ]
DannyB II wrote:
Samara STFU.....period. You don't know what you want to say. You have no idea if those spin-offs duplicated methodology or not. I know some staff that left Elan and went to other TC's and continued there success in helping people. I personally know at 4 employees of Daytop who went to Marathon and then went to Third Nail and Phoenix house, there doing great with great programs. You folks are so freaking jaded it is not funny.
My problem here is because you had a bad experience with a TC that means all TC's are run the same way.
Here is a analogy: My great great grandfather was a goat fucker, my great grandfather was a goat fucker, my grand father was a goat fucker, my father decided to fuck sheep and I was indoctrinated to the rare nubile of Farmington Ct.
Samara you have been scrubbed, wash and waxed. That brained is squeaky......don't be so quick to classify whooter is a quack. You might be surprised.
Oh Ursus is this a veil threat against Whooter. "I totally get why people would love to kick your ass with your "white-house-is-black-and-a smile" persona.
"
Samara I would not hand out wolf tickets you can not deliver.
Danny
-
Samara STFU.....period.
Do you hear yourself? Do you read what you've written before you post? My god....wtf is wrong with you?
Samara you have been scrubbed, wash and waxed. That brained is squeaky.....
.
IRONY OVERLOAD
don't be so quick to classify whooter is a quack. You might be surprised.
Ok.....I think we're headed down the rabbit hole here.
Oh Ursus is this a veil threat against Whooter.
Ok...I think Danny posted this, can't tell thru the haze of incomplete quotes, but in any case...I don't think Ursus wrote the quote below....
"I totally get why people would love to kick your ass with your "white-house-is-black-and-a smile" persona.
Samara I would not hand out wolf tickets you can not deliver.
Danny
I'm so confused!! What the hell is he talking about?
-
DannyB II wrote:
Samara STFU.....period. You don't know what you want to say. You have no idea if those spin-offs duplicated methodology or not. I know some staff that left Elan and went to other TC's and continued there success in helping people. I personally know at 4 employees of Daytop who went to Marathon and then went to Third Nail and Phoenix house, there doing great with great programs.
Daytop is a joke. I think that that has been proven by many to the satisfaction of any reasonable person right here on this site.
I have a Pheonix House near to me.. Those MFer are still making people wear signs, or at least they were a few years ago. A friend of mine living in the area, always remarked to me how sorry felt for those unhappy looking kids.
You folks are so freaking jaded it is not funny.
My problem here is because you had a bad experience with a TC that means all TC's are run the same way.
They are all run according to the same model, idiot. Even they will tell you that....
They are just watered down a bit.
Here is a analogy: My great great grandfather was a goat fucker, my great grandfather was a goat fucker, my grand father was a goat fucker, my father decided to fuck sheep and I was indoctrinated to the rare nubile of Farmington Ct.
LMAO! I laughed at this so fucking hard and long, I almost could not respond.. I still cannot believe that you wrote that.. Of all the possible analogies that you could have used.. There are countless ways that you could have made your point.
and you choose to talk about your ancestors being converted from goat fuckers to sheep fuckers..
It makes sense that your father switched to sheep though.. You have a lot of your mother in you.
Samara you have been scrubbed, wash and waxed. That brained is squeaky......don't be so quick to classify whooter is a quack. You might be surprised.
Danny, I think that you could use a good brain cleaning, bro! You sick, crazy bastard..LOLOLOL
Paul
-
Daytop is a joke. I think that that has been proven by many to the satisfaction of any reasonable person right here on this site.
I have a Pheonix House near to me.. Those MFer are still making people wear signs, or at least they were a few years ago. A friend of mine living in the area, always remarked to me how sorry felt for those unhappy looking kids.
Aren't they a descendant of Straight?
They are all run according to the same model, idiot. Even they will tell you that....
They are just watered down a bit.
That's my major problem with the majority of them. I have no problem with regular boarding schools (although it still wouldn't be my choice. I'd rather spend that money on a trip thru Europe with my kid as a means of 'steering them in the right direction') and I have no problem with the fact that there are kids out there who do need help. I have a problem with this particular treatment modality
LMAO! I laughed at this so fucking hard and long, I almost could not respond.. I still cannot believe that you wrote that.. Of all the possible analogies that you could have used.. There are countless ways that you could have made your point.
and you choose to talk about your ancestors being converted from goat fuckers to sheep fuckers..
Took the words right outta my mouth!
-
Wow - attack me for presumptions and then project them tenfold. I would defend myself, but feel no need. I know myself. It is a little strange being attacked by someone for no reason... it reminded me of a CEDU rap where someone went apeshit over barrettes (yes, that really happened). Again, primo example of Programs breeding Bullies. You don't really stand in testament for the existence of truly beneficial programs either. The interesting thing was that I was uninvolved in the whole DB vs. Everyone argument and was pretty neutral or open-minded. I think I get it now.
There is nothing wrong with my thoughts on TBSs as a treatment modality that is systemically unsound.
I don't know if your response is because of my snarkiness toward Whooter, but you have to understand. He's been house-sitting here for years, and his lack of compassion in light of real pain is hurtful. Worse than your venom to some degree because he acts as if it doesn't and shouldn't exist. Or that it is isolated to a few places.
The anger and venom you spew is scary to me. And you're right, I can't compete with that level of vitriol and hate. I am glad you are out of the business. Poor kids.
Are you sure it was a good idea to quit drinking?
-
Elaborate on your barrette incident Samara. I haven't heard this one before.
-
You know the drill. No matter is too petty to unleash torrents of insanity in a rap. I think I have spoken of it before.
An emerging staff member was in the throes cultic enlightenment. He drags his sweet new wife #2 into it and gets her a job there. Her job was to hang out and help with activities. Immediately, you can tell she is not down with the Cult. But she is a breath of fresh air and a fucking ray of sunshine next to the brainwashed rookie staff. The Power Staff note her benevolence as well as her skepticism and pressure her Emerging husband to make her Get With the Program and put her through the rap/profeet regimen. Where they proceeded to work her over. Even the marriage became a one-sided CEDU rap replica.
She looked like Doris Day. (I kid you not.) With a matching demeanor.... and she is slowly figuring out that the hills are not alive with the sound of music.
The rap I remember, run by a Power Staff female occurred when she allowed an upper student to take over and unleash the gates Armageddon on this woman. The things she said were vile, heartless, untrue, not rooted in sanity, audacious, and LOUD! The Power Student and Staff ganged up on the woman and took turns berating her, encouraging everyone to join in. The thing is it had nothing to do with the woman's conduct or her character. They were demolishing her for being cute and "dressing happy." They spent an inordinate amount of time on the woman's pink barrettes. So I started thinking of it as The Pink Barrette Rap. In any event, I was sickened watching these two go Lord of the Flies over a sunny disposition. To be her age and have staff incite some punk kid student to demean her publically and viciously, without provocation.
Meanwhile the male staff who cops to gang raping a 13 year old and another one who regales us young girls with tales of his masturbatory practices and devices as well as some other deviant or criminal acts are heralded for their honesty. But they weren't ashamed. They were empowered by their ability to brazenly, openly declare information that was either deviant or inappropriate.
I'm not really sure how this was supposed to be an edifying experience... for any of us.
But I do know that the woman drabbed down noticeably after that. I'll never forget it.
-
Samara STFU.....period. You don't know what you want to say. You have no idea if those spin-offs duplicated methodology or not. I know some staff that left Elan and went to other TC's and continued there success in helping people. I personally know at 4 employees of Daytop who went to Marathon and then went to Third Nail and Phoenix house, there doing great with great programs. You folks are so freaking jaded it is not funny.
My problem here is because you had a bad experience with a TC that means all TC's are run the same way.
I'm not overly familiar with the Third Nail; if you're referring to the drug rehab that used to be located in Roxbury or Jamaica Plain, Massachusetts, I'm not sure that it even exists anymore.
Daytop, Marathon House, and Phoenix House are, however, all based on the same methods and principles that evolved out of TC methodologies originally used in military prisons, and later adapted for addiction rehab as well as other behavior modification usages (e.g., reform institutions and RTCs for adolescents). Of the addiction rehabs, Synanon was an early and much emulated model.
Some of the very same personnel were, in fact, involved in several of these programs. They would go from one program to another, spreading the good word and teaching the trade secrets. David Deitch, originally at Narco Farm (if I recall correctly) and later with Synanon, was integrally involved in the start up of Daytop, Phoenix House, and Gateway, and quite probably others. Marathon House, incidentally, as I posted in discussion with you last December, Danny, has long since been absorbed by Phoenix House.
So... to sum up, yes, they are all goats. Some are bigger, some are smaller, some bleat high, some bleat low, some have perky ears, some have floppy ears, but they are... all... goats. Now what were you sayin' about your ancestors, Danny?
-
I'd like to have some sympathy for someone dumb enough to marry a program staffer, but I can't muster it up. Maybe tomorrow.
Marrying a programmie and complaining about the brutal insanity is like marrying a fisherman and complaining about the smell.
-
CEDU and Elan are connected too, right? I keep saying it, but the more I read about Elan (knew it about CEDU for a long time), the more it smacks of what I (we) went thru in Straight. Any number of us (Straight peeps) could've written that. Our GMs were called Open Meeting Reviews. We didn't have a "ring", but we did have intake rooms where "misbehavors" were taken into and beaten bloody.
And they wonder why we're skeptical. They wonder why we refer to it as "systemic". Jesus fucking christ!!!!
-
Samara STFU.....period. You don't know what you want to say. You have no idea if those spin-offs duplicated methodology or not. I know some staff that left Elan and went to other TC's and continued there success in helping people. I personally know at 4 employees of Daytop who went to Marathon and then went to Third Nail and Phoenix house, there doing great with great programs. You folks are so freaking jaded it is not funny.
My problem here is because you had a bad experience with a TC that means all TC's are run the same way.
I'm not overly familiar with the Third Nail; if you're referring to the drug rehab that used to be located in Roxbury or Jamaica Plain, Massachusetts, I'm not sure that it even exists anymore.
Daytop, Marathon House, and Phoenix House are, however, all based on the same methods and principles that evolved out of TC methodologies originally used in military prisons, and later adapted for addiction rehab as well as other behavior modification usages (e.g., reform institutions and RTCs for adolescents). Of the addiction rehabs, Synanon was an early and much emulated model.
Some of the very same personnel were, in fact, involved in several of these programs. They would go from one program to another, spreading the good word and teaching the trade secrets. David Deitch, originally at Narco Farm (if I recall correctly) and later with Synanon, was integrally involved in the start up of Daytop, Phoenix House, and Gateway, and quite probably others. Marathon House, incidentally, as I posted in discussion with you last December, Danny, has long since been absorbed by Phoenix House.
So... to sum up, yes, they are all goats. Some are bigger, some are smaller, some bleat high, some bleat low, some have perky ears, some have floppy ears, but they are... all... goats. Now what were you sayin' about your ancestors, Danny?
:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:
-
Wow - attack me for presumptions and then project them tenfold. I would defend myself, but feel no need. I know myself. It is a little strange being attacked by someone for no reason... it reminded me of a CEDU rap where someone went apeshit over barrettes (yes, that really happened). Again, primo example of Programs breeding Bullies. You don't really stand in testament for the existence of truly beneficial programs either. The interesting thing was that I was uninvolved in the whole DB vs. Everyone argument and was pretty neutral or open-minded. I think I get it now.
There is nothing wrong with my thoughts on TBSs as a treatment modality that is systemically unsound.
I don't know if your response is because of my snarkiness toward Whooter, but you have to understand. He's been house-sitting here for years, and his lack of compassion in light of real pain is hurtful. Worse than your venom to some degree because he acts as if it doesn't and shouldn't exist. Or that it is isolated to a few places.
The anger and venom you spew is scary to me. And you're right, I can't compete with that level of vitriol and hate. I am glad you are out of the business. Poor kids.
Are you sure it was a good idea to quit drinking?
Com'on samara this little coy act please save it, your opinions on TC's are ignorant to say the least and opinions of Whooter are like ass.....which one are you, you can be both.
Venom no just tired of hearing the same old bullshit, I thought JOM schooled you on telling the whole truth. STop being lazy and go develop your own thoughts and conclusions.
Ya at 17 yrs old I had to get out drinking to much.
Danny
-
Samara:
Your raps reminds me of what a new counselor went through out at Paint Rock Valley towards the end of my tenure. Simply put, this chap just wasn't vicious enough to be a staffer. We coaxed him, coached him, wrote him up, and put him on a plan to help him develop those decisive skills needed to ply their trade as a staff member at a Three Springs program. Mind you no one ever outright said that he needed to grow a pair, but the implications were all there that he was utterly terrified of confronting the residents.
And what good is a counselor who can't confront? That is about as useful as a cock flavored lolly-pop in most programs. Worst in the eyes of his peers, upper admin and me included, he was physically intimidated by the residents. If you remember Samara I made my bones at Three Springs by being the toughest and hardest of the bunch when it came to dealing with the non-conformist scum amongst the unwashed mass of residents.
These days I look back on him and quietly thank god that he never turned vicious. He's a good bloke who now runs a quiet little outreach program for kids at a baptist church. They do good work there helping children with a variety of problems, mostly they just listen and try to make their day center be a ray of light in some of their kid's bleak lives. Good on him, I tip my hat to him for not being subverted by the program.
Apparently he more stones than me.
-
Pile - I don't think he was in the Program when he married her. He married her and got a job as an art Teacher there - and then went down the rabbit hole. (Teachers only came twice a week and were removed from the program. Somehow, he hooked in and enlarged his role.) I think she thought he was working at a legitimate school helping troubled kids and she came to help with activities. She was not brought in as a "therapeutic" staff member. It was a shock for her. She never brought it. But because she was his wife, they thought she should knuckle down and buy in. But she simply did not have the sociopathic "skills" necessary to survive there. They are divorced now.It really was sad.
And I get it, because if I knew nothing of CEDU, I would automatically assume -- in my more ignorant days-- that these places for "troubled teens" were all born from the heart. I really had no way of imagining the insidious nature of these programs. I just couldn't accept that into my reality until it became mine. So I get where she was coming from... She wasn't Betty Sembler.
-
Com'on samara this little coy act please save it, your opinions on TC's are ignorant to say the least and opinions of Whooter are like ass.....which one are you, you can be both.
Ummmmm.......what?
Venom no just tired of hearing the same old bullshit, I thought JOM schooled you on telling the whole truth. STop being lazy and go develop your own thoughts and conclusions.
Ya at 17 yrs old I had to get out drinking to much.
Danny
Oh. My. God. He really doesn't see it at all, does he? Wow. Just, uhhhhh well, Wow. No, really......I mean WOW!!!!
:eek:
-
Yar, that Betty Sembler woman be poison. The very heart of the beast here is most people have the capacity to abuse the power they are given. As most of us aren't given that sort of power we never really get a chance to decide for ourselves if we are going to remain true to our values or be corrupted. This alone is why I'm skeptical of every single program, placement, TC, DC, PC, and FWPOSP out there.
What can be corrupted will be corrupted given enough time. All this talk of regulation is another way of saying new potential corruption.
The issue with phones for calls to CPS in programs?
hahaha.. There was an a state hotline on the wall in Straight Inc down in Florida. Kids were gang restrained for even getting out of their chairs.
At Eckerd's I saw a kid make a reasonable complaint to CPS only to be told to stuff it, in a rather polite way of course, by a case worker.
Three Springs, kids were typically diverted from using the phones via the grievance system that was unmonitored. None of the grievances filed ever were kept on the logs, giving state workers no way to follow up on them.
This is merely a tip of the corrupt ice berg. For every new regulation there are at least ten old tricks for getting around it.
-
your opinions on TC's are ignorant to say the least and opinions of Whooter are like ass.....which one are you, you can be both.
That is a very good point, Danny!
-
OK, look.. we have enough threads filled with Danny Spam. Can we agree to ignore him on this one? Someone is considering sending their child to a fucking program. Put your boot up Danny's ass elsewhere, and let's use this thread to educate the woman.
-
I'm not so sure about this lady. She went from her whole world revolving around her daughter, to wanting to go on undercover mission to expose abuse in a psych facility, based on the claims of a single psych patient.
Paul
-
I know, believe me.. I wonder as well.. but.. ask yourself.. What if there really is a daughter involved here? Now these seem like long odds, but damn.. if there really is a daughter involved...
-
You know, DB, you talk about jaded and yet that is the attitude you greet me with. JOM did not "school" me; if you read the whole thread, you'd see that. I sincerely vented, I don't know why he felt the need to challenge nothing, but we did come to a resolution.
My coyness is not an act, it's a facet of my personality, and maybe even an annoying one. There still exists a Pollyanna part that just wants every one to drink milk, eat cookies, sing Do-Re-Mi and all agree that programs shouldn't hurt kids. The truth is when things get raw around here, it is still shocking to me what people will say. I know it shouldn't be, but it is. I really don't understand the meanness people will sink to even if we are all strangers. But I can guarantee you if you met me, you would immediately understand your misconception. You would never talk to me the way you do here, and I doubt you would ever feel proud to in front of your family.
Go ahead and get the last word in.
I will know that your words bear no semblance to reality. And you will still hate yourself.
-
CEDU and Elan are connected too, right? I keep saying it, but the more I read about Elan (knew it about CEDU for a long time), the more it smacks of what I (we) went thru in Straight. Any number of us (Straight peeps) could've written that. Our GMs were called Open Meeting Reviews. We didn't have a "ring", but we did have intake rooms where "misbehavors" were taken into and beaten bloody.
And they wonder why we're skeptical. They wonder why we refer to it as "systemic"
Jesus fucking christ!!!!
Anne your analogy is not systemic. Elan is the vein. If it is systemic what system are you relating to. I'm sorry please continue your argument or assumption, I'm supposed to be stupid.
-
Well Che, when you re right, you re right... best of luck .. That's it for me...
After a long evening of refreshing the fornits page and laughing my ass of.. I think it's time to crash..
Peace
-
Che - agreed.
-
Yar, that Betty Sembler woman be poison. The very heart of the beast here is most people have the capacity to abuse the power they are given. As most of us aren't given that sort of power we never really get a chance to decide for ourselves if we are going to remain true to our values or be corrupted. This alone is why I'm skeptical of every single program, placement, TC, DC, PC, and FWPOSP out there.
Yup
hahaha.. There was an a state hotline on the wall in Straight Inc down in Florida. Kids were gang restrained for even getting out of their chairs.
True. Actually, we were gang restrained (sometimes to the point of cessation of breathing) for not having our feet flat on the floor while sitting in those goddamned blue chairs that were connected to each other. Or not looking at the person speaking. Or wearing the wrong barrette (in Straight if we looked too nice it was called being "gamey"). Or refusing to speak or write an MI (moral inventory). Or asking to call our parents. Or asking to report the gang restraint.
-
OK, look.. we have enough threads filled with Danny Spam. Can we agree to ignore him on this one? Someone is considering sending their child to a fucking program. Put your boot up Danny's ass elsewhere, and let's use this thread to educate the woman.
Che shut up since when do you care you are one of the biggest spammers. (just had to say this, that will be all out of me).
Danny
-
(just had to say this, that will be all out of me). Danny
[/size][/b][/color]
:on phone:
:deal:
What are the odds?
Cash only bets on how long spammy keeps his mouth shut.
-
Whatever, the fact is you remain on this site. It is odd... you spend A LOT of time here. If you are a paid pro program tool, and really believe this site is for losers, why visit it? Obviously, if Fornits is for losers, it is not a threat to your beloved programs, so why not spend your time amongst your people, Cultists, KoolAid Drinkers, and Profiteers?
'Cuz... he's... got... stocks.
BINGO!
-
At Three Springs I remember a kid getting gang tackled for trying to go to the bathroom.
and Felice.. please.. there are other threads to publicly flay Spammy alive. If we can reach out to someone here we should do our best to do that. Why don't you tell us about your time in the Chair?
And please.. don't let Spammy derail you on this thread.
-
Samara STFU.....period. You don't know what you want to say. You have no idea if those spin-offs duplicated methodology or not. I know some staff that left Elan and went to other TC's and continued there success in helping people. I personally know at 4 employees of Daytop who went to Marathon and then went to Third Nail and Phoenix house, there doing great with great programs. You folks are so freaking jaded it is not funny.
My problem here is because you had a bad experience with a TC that means all TC's are run the same way.
I'm not overly familiar with the Third Nail; if you're referring to the drug rehab that used to be located in Roxbury or Jamaica Plain, Massachusetts, I'm not sure that it even exists anymore.
Third Nail spun off from Marathon House and was in Brighton Mass. I was there in late 82 early 83 heroin addiction.
Daytop, Marathon House, and Phoenix House are, however, all based on the same methods and principles that evolved out of TC methodologies originally used in military prisons, and later adapted for addiction rehab as well as other behavior modification usages (e.g., reform institutions and RTCs for adolescents). Of the addiction rehabs, Synanon was an early and much emulated model.
Marathon House was not anything like Daytop or Phoenix House I was there for 9 months in 1974. It was Joe Geronimos little baby and he was very easy going. He owned it and had maybe 4 staff and his wife was the program coordinator. He based his program upon a system of rewards as you moved the program. There was no signs, shaving heads, screaming at each other. There were groups and punishment came in the form of no off time, no movies, working in the yard all day or ya I remember sitting in a cubby hole by the front door. Sitting in that chair constituted a serious offense because the next step/move was out the door. Now since all of us were sent by the State for crimes committed out the door meant back to juvie (lock up). Nobody wanted that, we were in Newport R.I. beautiful island, I mean beautiful it was co-ed and Joe G. was cool.
Some of the very same personnel were, in fact, involved in several of these programs. They would go from one program to another, spreading the good word and teaching the trade secrets. David Deitch, originally at Narco Farm (if I recall correctly) and later with Synanon, was integrally involved in the start up of Daytop, Phoenix House, and Gateway, and quite probably others. Marathon house was long since absorbed by the Phoenix House.
I already knew Phoenix House was absorbed because a gentlemen by the name of Joe Cataldo wanted to by it first. Joe C. was with Resurrection House in New Britain Ct now called Freedom House in New Britain. A shelter homeless drug addict facility. Non profit. I sat on the Board for 2 years back in the early nineties. The Third Nail is gone due to a murder in the house back in the 80's staff was somehow involved and tried to cover it up. Now Daytop is still relishing in its status with Ct. Gateway no nothing of somehow never heard of that TC.
So... to sum up, yes, they are all goats. Some are bigger, some are smaller, some bleat high, some bleat low, some have perky ears, some have floppy ears, but they are... all... goats. Now what were you sayin' about your ancestors, Danny?
:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:
Anne no your point is filled with holes and I just proved it. Why is it so necessary for you to have this nice little package all wrapped up. You can't have any loose ends can you. Nice try girl but it just isn't that way and it is OK.
You still have enough programs out there that are giving kids problems whether they are connected or not.
Danny
-
:karma:
Oh common guys..poor ole Danny is here to save the little children...lmao please Daniel your so out of your league here so why not go away.
-
At Three Springs I remember a kid getting gang tackled for trying to go to the bathroom.
and Felice.. please.. there are other threads to publicly flay Spammy alive. If we can reach out to someone here we should do our best to do that. Why don't you tell us about your time in the Chair?
And please.. don't let Spammy derail you on this thread.
Spammybennikruglickgottliebclaire-bot is on the FOE list I only see people quoting the REALLY STUPID shit...um ya all of it...anywooo
I have Video's: http://http://www.youtube/witness4justice
Testimony: http://http://theelanschool.tumblr.com/tagged/1981
CAMP EUGENICS: http://http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=179417&id=788482312&ref=mf
Artwork: http://http://theelanschool.tumblr.com/tagged/ElanART
"I was tortured for money at the Elan School in Poland Spring Maine."
"My Elan Education helped me to survive the Wisconsin Eugenics Programs"
"My Fornits and Art/Play/Sarcasm Therapy has been the most helpful in my recovery from multiple layers of TRAUMA."
I now have the skill to Properly tell a politician to FUCK OFF>
My plant is still Illegal (exclude 14 States)
Millions of Dollars have been wasted on my "Moral Torture Treatment"
I still listen to Sweeeeeedish Death Metal. :clown:
Oh and I get to tell these fuckers off once a month:http://http://dhs.wisconsin.gov/MentalHealth/infrastructure/index.htm
"priceless"
-
At Three Springs I remember a kid getting gang tackled for trying to go to the bathroom.
and Felice.. please.. there are other threads to publicly flay Spammy alive. If we can reach out to someone here we should do our best to do that. Why don't you tell us about your time in the Chair?
And please.. don't let Spammy derail you on this thread.
Spammybennikruglickgottliebclaire-bot is on the FOE list I only see people quoting the REALLY STUPID shit...um ya all of it...anywooo
I have Video's: http://http://www.youtube/witness4justice
Testimony: http://http://theelanschool.tumblr.com/tagged/1981
CAMP EUGENICS: http://http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=179417&id=788482312&ref=mf
Artwork: http://http://theelanschool.tumblr.com/tagged/ElanART
"I was tortured for money at the Elan School in Poland Spring Maine."
"My Elan Education helped me to survive the Wisconsin Eugenics Programs"
"My Fornits and Art/Play/Sarcasm Therapy has been the most helpful in my recovery from multiple layers of TRAUMA."
I now have the skill to Properly tell a politician to FUCK OFF>
My plant is still Illegal (exclude 14 States)
Millions of Dollars have been wasted on my "Moral Torture Treatment"
I still listen to Sweeeeeedish Death Metal. :clown:
Oh and I get to tell these fuckers off once a month:http://http://dhs.wisconsin.gov/MentalHealth/infrastructure/index.htm
"priceless"
Your right this is priceless. Che your customer is long gone.
Danny
-
:notworthy: