Fornits
General Interest => Open Free for All => Topic started by: heelhasabunyon on April 06, 2010, 02:53:29 PM
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This person is nuts...nuts nuts nuts...and as far as I can tell is incredibly damaging to the plight of the anti-behavior mod movement.
Her website is so huge, and looks as if it were designed by an 8 year old on crack. When she is poilitely asked to remove names of innocent people from her site, she replies with an email spouting legal mumbo jumbo and a threat of a harrassment lawsuit.
It is INSANE to me that she can falsely accuse and slander people, and then have the audacity to tell them she will the SUE THEM for harrassment when they ask that their names be removed from her site.
..she is a lunatic...
::fullofshit::
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This person is nuts...nuts nuts nuts...and as far as I can tell is incredibly damaging to the plight of the anti-behavior mod movement.
Her website is so huge, and looks as if it were designed by an 8 year old on crack. When she is poilitely asked to remove names of innocent people from her site, she replies with an email spouting legal mumbo jumbo and a threat of a harrassment lawsuit.
It is INSANE to me that she can falsely accuse and slander people, and then have the audacity to tell them she will the SUE THEM for harrassment when they ask that their names be removed from her site.
..she is a lunatic...
::fullofshit::
Are there innocent people described on the main portion of her site (within program descriptions)?
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there are innocent people listed on her site, in association with programs she deems as "abusive". This is a public, searchable site and their information being listed can be very damaging to them professionally (many employess are in a support capacity, i.e. ap/ar, HR, accounting, administrative assistants, etc and have little to no contact with the students, and do not want their names affiliated with "child abuse" when applying for positions in unrelated industries). I understand many programs are abusive, and questionable in their practices...but painting every employee of just about every private school in the country with the same brush..is in and of itself abusive and damages HEAL's credibility...as well as the focus on "animal's" and the "earth" in addition to teens...she is trivializing her own plight.
You cannot accuse people of something such as ABUSING children, without proof and not have outsiders question the intent, purpose, and professional caliber of the accuser. It damages the anti-behave mod industry as a whole when extremists like Angela Smith are driving the bus, in the public eye. (Do one google search and she is right there at the top, jihad and all.)
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I agree. Her website does like an 8 year old on crack designed it. Her tree-hugging hippie bullshit also damages the movement as a whole. Everything down to her Twisted Sister "we're not gonna take it" theme song screams insanity, or at the very least a complete lack of professionalism and good taste if the target audience is prospective parents. She has also falsely accused myself and two others of wrongdoing (which she later retracted). HOWEVER. That does not necessarily mean that the sworn statements sent into her organization by others are false (survivors written experiences). It also does not mean her description of "abusive" regarding a wide variety of programs is an inappropriate label.
Why don't you describe where you worked, what she has accused you of, and why you feel they are false allegations. And for shits and giggles, why don't you publish her emails. I know a few around here will probably get a little chuckle.
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I agree with you to some extend.
Some of our volunteers at Secret Prisons for Teens (http://http://www.secretprisonsforteens.dk) do also volunteer for other organizations. I can name:
* Protecting and praising the Danish culture (http://http://alcoholcultureindenmark.blog.com/about/)
* Protecting Danish exchange students abroad (http://http://exchangestudentinfo.weebly.com/) or foreign exchange students studying in Denmark,
* Raise awareness xenophobia against Danes abroad (http://http://xenophobia.mono.net/),
* Raise awareness about Danish prisoners abroad (http://http://de-glemte-danskere.blogspot.com/)
However Overgaard have asked that they separate their other activities from the work they do on spft. While some of these key issues which are quite accepted in Denmark which is a country at war, they can be viewed as controversial by foreigners. The lesson learned from the cartoon war (http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cartoon_war) is that a domestic fight against the supply lines of terrorism can be viewed as too widespread an attack like we today measure the so-called area bombing used by the allies during the last phases of world war II. What did pass as OK back then would be considered a war crime by today standards.
We don't want to jeopardize our work in the wiki-database by mixing Spft's activities with other activities regardless of how important we would see them. So the guidelines are for the volunteers that they may have personal blogs where they have posts on various issues including spft work, but on spft's webpages they are only allowed to write about spft work.
HEAL should buy additional webpages so they could focus on specific causes, but we are not running their organization for them. The webpage could also benefit from a translation into a kind of CMS system. Even at Spft we are looking at various web-solutions. It makes it easier and faster to make updates. I know that there was some kind of communication months back between Fican and Spft before they switched to a CMS system.
However where I disagree is how they should run their organization. One of the most admired Danish politicians is Mogens Camre (http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mogens_Camre). Together with Jesper Langballe (http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesper_Langballe) he modernized the strategies you can use in a political cause. Some might find statement made used in a almost holy cause shocking, but I fell that Heal has not crossed the line about what should be accepted. As long as schools like WWASP can claim more than 90 percent successrate without the rest of behavior modification business condemning it, the industry should be expecting attacks like the one made by HEAL.
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Hello Psy.
here is the one i just got, you may find it interesting:
fromLogan Payton <logan.payton@gmail.com>
toAngela Smith--Survivor Response <angela@heal-online.org>
ccMichael Crawford <psyborgue@mac.com>
dateTue, Apr 6, 2010 at 1:42 PM
subjectRe: Mt Bachelor Academy Staff List
mailed-bygmail.com
hide details 1:42 PM (6 minutes ago)
Angela,
You are crazy/irrational. I dont really find your petty threats to be anything taken very seriously, and Fornits is NOT where I found your resume...LOL.
PS..it would be difficult to assume that I am harassing you, as you respond to each and every email I have sent, minus one.
I have B'ccd the President, the CIA, the FBI, PETA, NRA, NAFTA, NATO and Bill Gates. Among others.
PS, nice website...real classy layout.
Angela Smith--Survivor Response <angela@heal-online.org>
reply-toAngela Smith--Survivor Response <angela@heal-online.org>
toLogan Payton <logan.payton@gmail.com>
ccMichael Crawford <psyborgue@mac.com>
dateTue, Apr 6, 2010 at 1:35 PM
subjectRe: Mt Bachelor Academy Staff List
Dear Logan,
Thank you for contacting HEAL. I assume you frequent http://www.fornits.com (http://www.fornits.com) and that is where you found my resume. I have repeatedly asked that my account on fornits.com and all posts be removed. Apparently, I may have to speak with my attorney about that.
In any event, your e-mails are harassment. We have repeatedly told you to stop e-mailing us. As far as prosecution, we are looking at possible communications theft among other charges.
It is in your best interest to cease and desist contacting our organization.
Sincerely,
Angela Smith
HEAL Coordinator
(PS Any bcc'd folks, please forward this to Ginger as I can't find her e-mail address. Thanks.)
----- Original Message -----
From: Logan Payton
To: Angela Smith--Survivor Response
- Show quoted text -
Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2010 12:08 PM
Subject: Re: Mt Bachelor Academy Staff List
You worked at payless shoes? wow! I heard they only hire the best, er, shoe salesmen. You are one talented individual.
Hopefully you can get off public assistance soon, and get back to law school. 6 years is a really long "hiatus".
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Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
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Why don't you describe where you worked, what she has accused you of, and why you feel they are false allegations. And for shits and giggles, why don't you publish her emails. I know a few around here will probably get a little chuckle.
I do not work in the industry, nor am i former student. I live within seconds of Sagewalk, and miles from MTBA. I wanted to know, as a person with an unclear understanding of the industry as a whole who lives within a community of former staffers, how she came upon her conclusions that ALL of the staff at afore mentioned programs were infact guilty of abuse. Instead of an explanation, I was threatened with a law suit, personally insulted, threatened with arrest, threatened with the FBI, PETA (i used to raise registered english lops) among other things. She also immediately targeted two former employees of MTBA in association with me, how or why she came to this conclusion is BEYOND me...she even accused me of pretending to be a lawyer representing these people..which is laughable.
Immediately I began to question her creidibility, not the programs i initially contacted her about.
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People I have nothing to do with this. I had my problems with her for various reasons and forgot about them for the most part.
I have no idea who you are, and your right, you have nothing to do with me forming the conclusion that angela smith is a whacko...angela smith does.
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Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
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You are close to Springfield then?
i live in redmond oregon.
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Why don't you describe where you worked, what she has accused you of, and why you feel they are false allegations. And for shits and giggles, why don't you publish her emails. I know a few around here will probably get a little chuckle.
I do not work in the industry, nor am i former student. I live within seconds of Sagewalk, and miles from MTBA. I wanted to know, as a person with an unclear understanding of the industry as a whole who lives within a community of former staffers, how she came upon her conclusions that ALL of the staff at afore mentioned programs were infact guilty of abuse. Instead of an explanation, I was threatened with a law suit, personally insulted, threatened with arrest, threatened with the FBI, PETA (i used to raise registered english lops) among other things. She also immediately targeted two former employees of MTBA in association with me, how or why she came to this conclusion is BEYOND me...she even accused me of pretending to be a lawyer representing these people..which is laughable.
Immediately I began to question her creidibility, not the programs i initially contacted her about.
Well. MBA does have a history.
Ask some of your friends who work at MBA about LifeSteps.
Time Magazine did an article a while back about it:
http://www.time.com/time/health/article ... -1,00.html (http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1891082-1,00.html)
Page 3 is where the good stuff starts. Now I know for a fact those kids couldn't have possibly made that stuff up because they did the exact same things, french maid outfit and all, at the CEDU based program I was in. It may be hard to admit that your friends were involved in these things, and they might not have seen it as abuse, but imagine if you were one of those kids. That sort of thing does not help. Ask yourself how a lap dance is therapeutic. Or even if it wasn't a lap dance and that was an exaggeration, how is Kelis's "milkshake", a song about hand jobs, possibly appropriate in a therapeutic context for teens. Ask yourself if it could have traumatized some, especially those who might have had a history of sexual abuse.
Why she is attacking you if you didn't work there is beyond me. If she's not listening to reason, my suggestion is to get a lawyer involved. However. If she has not listed you on your website, and you're just sticking up for your friends, i'd advice you to examine very very closely who you are defending. Good people can do bad things when they are lead to believe it's in the greater good. Angela is indeed nuts, but that doesn't mean MBA is good.
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there are innocent people listed on her site, in association with programs she deems as "abusive". This is a public, searchable site and their information being listed can be very damaging to them professionally (many employess are in a support capacity, i.e. ap/ar, HR, accounting, administrative assistants, etc and have little to no contact with the students, and do not want their names affiliated with "child abuse" when applying for positions in unrelated industries). I understand many programs are abusive, and questionable in their practices...but painting every employee of just about every private school in the country with the same brush..is in and of itself abusive and damages HEAL's credibility...as well as the focus on "animal's" and the "earth" in addition to teens...she is trivializing her own plight.
You cannot accuse people of something such as ABUSING children, without proof and not have outsiders question the intent, purpose, and professional caliber of the accuser. It damages the anti-behave mod industry as a whole when extremists like Angela Smith are driving the bus, in the public eye. (Do one google search and she is right there at the top, jihad and all.)
I do not work in the industry, nor am i former student. I live within seconds of Sagewalk, and miles from MTBA. I wanted to know, as a person with an unclear understanding of the industry as a whole who lives within a community of former staffers, how she came upon her conclusions that ALL of the staff at afore mentioned programs were infact guilty of abuse. Instead of an explanation, I was threatened with a law suit, personally insulted, threatened with arrest, threatened with the FBI, PETA (i used to raise registered english lops) among other things. She also immediately targeted two former employees of MTBA in association with me, how or why she came to this conclusion is BEYOND me...she even accused me of pretending to be a lawyer representing these people..which is laughable.
Immediately I began to question her creidibility, not the programs i initially contacted her about.
I'm really not in any position to comment on what transpired in your communications with Angela Smith, so I'm not even gonna go there. Period ... on that issue.
However, personally, I do think Angela has a point in listing all known staff associated with given abusive programs on her website. Even if those people have little to no contact with the students, they are legitimizing if not actually contributing to the "therapeutic milieu," which in and of itself is plenty abusive enough, regardless of whether any egregiously damaging events occur that they become aware of.
You could say they are accessories to the crime, wittingly or not. And they are hardly "innocent" if they witness inappropriate goings on and do not report said events to the police, DHS, or the like.
In fact, from what I understand, it was precisely such a person, a part-time van driver at Mount Bachelor Academy, who had the intact presence of mind and moral fortitude to do the right thing and alert authorities as to what was actually going on there. And we all know now how that turned out for MBA.
Perhaps these people may have taken on such a job unwittingly, and then realized what kind of a hornet's nest they entered, and then left in short order. Those folk's names do not grace the staff rosters of program after program, unlike many in the industry. That much becomes pretty clear after you've perused Angela's staff lists for a time.
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Why don't you describe where you worked, what she has accused you of, and why you feel they are false allegations. And for shits and giggles, why don't you publish her emails. I know a few around here will probably get a little chuckle.
I do not work in the industry, nor am i former student. I live within seconds of Sagewalk, and miles from MTBA. I wanted to know, as a person with an unclear understanding of the industry as a whole who lives within a community of former staffers, how she came upon her conclusions that ALL of the staff at afore mentioned programs were infact guilty of abuse. Instead of an explanation, I was threatened with a law suit, personally insulted, threatened with arrest, threatened with the FBI, PETA (i used to raise registered english lops) among other things. She also immediately targeted two former employees of MTBA in association with me, how or why she came to this conclusion is BEYOND me...she even accused me of pretending to be a lawyer representing these people..which is laughable.
Immediately I began to question her creidibility, not the programs i initially contacted her about.
Well. MBA does have a history.
Ask some of your friends who work at MBA about LifeSteps.
Time Magazine did an article a while back about it:
http://www.time.com/time/health/article ... -1,00.html (http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1891082-1,00.html)
Page 3 is where the good stuff starts. Now I know for a fact those kids couldn't have possibly made that stuff up because they did the exact same things, french maid outfit and all, at the CEDU based program I was in. It may be hard to admit that your friends were involved in these things, and they might not have seen it as abuse, but imagine if you were one of those kids. That sort of thing does not help. Ask yourself how a lap dance is therapeutic. Or even if it wasn't a lap dance and that was an exaggeration, how is Kelis's "milkshake", a song about hand jobs, possibly appropriate in a therapeutic context for teens. Ask yourself if it could have traumatized some, especially those who might have had a history of sexual abuse.
Why she is attacking you if you didn't work there is beyond me. If she's not listening to reason, my suggestion is to get a lawyer involved. However. If she has not listed you on your website, and you're just sticking up for your friends, i'd advice you to examine very very closely who you are defending. Good people can do bad things when they are lead to believe it's in the greater good. Angela is indeed nuts, but that doesn't mean MBA is good.
Noted. I have read all publications that i know about regarding MTBA. I have also personally attended a "rose ceremony". I am not an industry professional, and did not experience being a student here, so i can't speak of whether or not abuse took place factually. I can however ask people making the accusations to provide proof though, cant I? Instead of this being provided, I was personally attacked. That is all my point is...i am not here to defend MTBA or people who worked there. I am here as a member of a community which houses several of these schools and I want to know the truth. I have read accounts of students such as Fembi's, and Joe's, and I have also heard stories from parents and students who's lives have been changed for the good..I just don't know where to put my opinion at this point regarding MTBA as a whole.
As far as my "friends" who worked at MTBA, this applies to one person, who did not work on the campus and never abused anyone. I can say that factually. I can also honestly say that my contacting angela was not to "defend" my friend, it was a reasonable request for proof that abuses that she alleges (homosexual cleansing, brainwashing, cult, etc.) are true. I don't think MTBA is "good"...I am still in the process of forming my opinion....which is why I reached out to Angela in the first place.
I hope this makes sense.
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It’s a curious reaction that we have also seen here on fornits. We had an admin who would post pictures of young people (here on fornits) who got their first job as staff or assistant, working in the programs office etc. and she would humiliate them by making fun of their hobbies, the way they looked, did their hair knowing their friends and family might read it. It was twisted to watch and I wasn’t sure why she did it. But one thing was for sure, she was the first one to cry foul if someone made fun of one of the kids in a program. So she somehow knew it was wrong to attack innocent people but she did it anyway.
I think this HEAL person has the same issues. Its like having a deep seated hatred for the guy that cuts the grass at the local catholic church (because of the church sex scandal) and making fun of his family and humiliating him. Some people don’t realize that he is just trying to make a living and feed his family. I don’t think he should quit his job or take the heat for what some of the priests have done, but some people feel everyone connected to a problem are accessories to the crime and should take an equal hit and be equally responsible.
.... and some people just take personal pleasure in hurting others. I am not sure how you can stop her if she owns the website and doesn’t care who she hurts.
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I am not meaning to be confrontational..but..I would like to post the following message from a student at MBA, to me, regarding the staff at MBA:
Fam-bay Adamou-Gazis November 16, 2009 at 11:55pm Report
First of all. I never reported MBA to just let you know. Someone called me asked me about my exprence at MBA and I told them what happend. I left it at that. I never pressed chargers againts the school for child abuse or none of that shit. I dont know where you got it from that i started the whole child abused shit. yeah iam happy MBA it self got shut down but iam sad for the staff that i once cared about who had lost their jobs. MBA has two sides of it and I exprince the bad side of MBA.
This is from the very student who CHOOSE her french maid costume for her lifestep Psy. According to her. Just saying..I think sometimes when we are dealing with poeple's account of events that took place, we should consider the source. In the case of ALL parties involved with this industry, both sides of the fence.
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I am not meaning to be confrontational..but..I would like to post the following message from a student at MBA, to me, regarding the staff at MBA:
Fam-bay Adamou-Gazis November 16, 2009 at 11:55pm Report
First of all. I never reported MBA to just let you know. Someone called me asked me about my exprence at MBA and I told them what happend. I left it at that. I never pressed chargers againts the school for child abuse or none of that shit. I dont know where you got it from that i started the whole child abused shit. yeah iam happy MBA it self got shut down but iam sad for the staff that i once cared about who had lost their jobs. MBA has two sides of it and I exprince the bad side of MBA.
This is from the very student who CHOOSE her french maid costume for her lifestep Psy. According to her. Just saying..I think sometimes when we are dealing with poeple's account of events that took place, we should consider the source. In the case of ALL parties involved with this industry, both sides of the fence.
It's a lot easier to find another job, than it is trying to put your brain back together again. I'm not sure you can even approach making a comparison here.
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I am not meaning to be confrontational..but..I would like to post the following message from a student at MBA, to me, regarding the staff at MBA:
Fam-bay Adamou-Gazis November 16, 2009 at 11:55pm Report
First of all. I never reported MBA to just let you know. Someone called me asked me about my exprence at MBA and I told them what happend. I left it at that. I never pressed chargers againts the school for child abuse or none of that shit. I dont know where you got it from that i started the whole child abused shit. yeah iam happy MBA it self got shut down but iam sad for the staff that i once cared about who had lost their jobs. MBA has two sides of it and I exprince the bad side of MBA.
This is from the very student who CHOOSE her french maid costume for her lifestep Psy. According to her. Just saying..I think sometimes when we are dealing with poeple's account of events that took place, we should consider the source. In the case of ALL parties involved with this industry, both sides of the fence.
It's more complicated than that. You have to consider the mental state of the kids and the duress they are under. If you don't comply with the program you don't progress. You don't advance until you not only admit but also believe everything you are accused of, true or not. There is no set graduation. For that and many other reasons all choices within the program can to some extent be considered to be under duress.
I chose to go into the equivalent of the LifeStep seminar a second time. It was my choice. But at that time they had convinced me that I was sick, that I needed the program, and I was convinced that If I did not give myself totally and completely to the program that I would literally die. It can be very very close to a cult, if not fully there. The things they do in such workshops are inappropriate and reprehensible by whatever standard. That's why they're so secretive and that's why you'll never hear the program be open about such seminars. It's also what makes the whole process devoid of any sort of ethical informed consent.
I did not go into the program for a drug or alcohol problem. My parents thought it was a boarding school. It was the school that convinced me (and I use convince lightly) I had problems I did not. Even if I did have a serious problem, however, what they did was thought reform... brainwashing... not therapy and certainly not help. It provides very convincing results, yes, but they don't last, and in the long run they cause harm.
It sounds absurd but if you look into the history of this industry it happens a lot. You get kids coming out of the worst of places swearing up and down that the program saved their life. A few years later, outside of the all-encompassing twilight zone, it starts to wear off and things start to fall into perspective. Without understanding thought reform, you'll be bewildered to death by this industry. It just won't make sense. It's why I recommended you read Singer's book.
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Think of it this way. Imagine you grew up in a environment of childhood sexual abuse. You might see what is happening at the time as fun or playing a special game with daddy but when you get out in the outside world, you realize just how wrong it was and you feel dirty. You feel used. You feel rightly like you were raped. Not just physically, but in the sense that everything you believed about what was right and wrong was skewed, and that the people who you trusted hurt you. It's not a perfect analogy but it makes the point. Some people like the staff members so much, like their daddies, they refuse to believe anything they did was wrong. They need to see what happened to them as help and not abuse... and anything they got they deserved.
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Noted. I have read all publications that i know about regarding MTBA. I have also personally attended a "rose ceremony". I am not an industry professional, and did not experience being a student here, so i can't speak of whether or not abuse took place factually. I can however ask people making the accusations to provide proof though, cant I?
It would have been much more polite for her to explain the situation, I agree.
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I'm not touching this issue with a ten foot pole. As before, I wish Angela all the best in her lawsuit with Provo Canyon.
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I know I said I didn't have much to say about Angela, and I don't, but in general I think I'm somewhat allowed to speak on the issue of staff being on websites. When I ran the YLF (An organization that provided us all with hours of comedy and massive migraines) I did the same sort of thing as Angela. I posted a slew of photos of staff members of AARC up in Canada. The outrage and such from those staff members was fairly memorable. When you are working for a program you are supporting an enterprise that is cruel, evil, and disgusting. Even if you didn't raise a single finger to hurt a kid, you still helped make it possible for others to do so.
Now, I am former staff, I did participate in activitives that I freely admit were abusive. I was frontline staff right in the trenches of this ongoing cultural war that is claiming the lives of young children. Just check out Pile of Dead kids signature to get a gist of what I mean. The difference between myself and a person working in the office at the facilities I worked at isn't all that much.
I was out with the kids, they were in the office making it possible for people like me to be out in the woods.
Now.. the question really remains here.. Did those people in the office have any idea of what was going on? Knowing how staff mingles with each other after hours I find it hard to believe they knew nothing. What I suggest for your friend is to remember that most of what goes on with these websites probably won't ever affect her. All she has to do is stay put at her current job for awhile, get some time in grade, update her resume, never mention MBA ever again, and she'll be fine.
Seriously, just don't mention MBA. If they don't find it on her resume, they won't be able to google her name to make the connection.
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Imagine, just for a moment, if this were turned around and one of these programs accused an innocent kid of doing drugs (when they didn’t) or judged them through association..... saying to the kid: maybe you didn’t do drugs yourself or had promiscuous sex but we are sure you knew kids in your school who did and didn’t do anything about it and therefore you are guilty by association. We know you must have known drug dealers yet you stayed silent about it. Then posted pictures of the kids around the campus with witty sayings on them.
I am sure if this occurred in a program then HEAL and these other web sites would cry foul and call it abuse, but would still somehow justify continuing to do it themselves thereby upholding a double standard.
Its funny how somehow the same rules don't apply to ourselves.
...
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Some primary differences:
Drug dealing/using and sex are consensual activities. Illegal, potentially harmful, but consensual for all parties involved.
In a public school, everybody has about the same access to info about what's going on around them and the ability to report it or not. In a program the staff has the ability to speak up but the kids are't even allowed to phone their mothers without a staffer eavesdropping.
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Some primary differences:
Drug dealing/using and sex are consensual activities. Illegal, potentially harmful, but consensual for all parties involved.
In a public school, everybody has about the same access to info about what's going on around them and the ability to report it or not. In a program the staff has the ability to speak up but the kids are't even allowed to phone their mothers without a staffer eavesdropping.
I do see your point, antigen, but your info is a little dated. Kids are allowed to call home if they like. In fact the program requires the student to contact and speak with their family to help rebuild the family unit. There is no one from the program who listens in on other people conversations. At least not the programs I am familiar with. If that is still going on today then the parents should be notified and have the policy changed.
We parents (recommended) and made many changes at ASR when my daughter attended.
...
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Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
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There is no one from the program who listens in on other people conversations. At least not the programs I am familiar with.
[/i]
Whooter what programs are you referring to?
Perhaps it was this one: http://fornits.com/SIBS (http://fornits.com/SIBS)
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There is no one from the program who listens in on other people conversations. At least not the programs I am familiar with.
[/i]
Whooter what programs are you referring to?
Perhaps it was this one: http://fornits.com/SIBS (http://fornits.com/SIBS)
:rofl: :rofl:
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Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
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Hey even better, let's turn every thread on the forums into a lamefest whooter rebuttal thread, savin' lives man, savin' lives.
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This is silly. Back to the original topic - how many employees of programs will admit to being abusive, or even believe they are? Whooter has admitted there are nasty, nasty programs out there, he just has trouble naming them. None of those nasty program employees think they are abusive, either.
Randall Hinton thought he was providing a service at Tranquility Bay that was on the level of pizza delivery when he was scrubbing Layne's genitals with a toilet brush and teargassing him repeatedly in the course of a day. Randall still thinks he's an innocent victim, too. Let Angela post the names, these crying programees are like former Nazis claiming they were just following orders. Anyway, why come here to bitch about HEAL? Take your tears to Angela.
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This is silly. Back to the original topic - how many employees of programs will admit to being abusive, or even believe they are? Whooter has admitted there are nasty, nasty programs out there, he just has trouble naming them. None of those nasty program employees think they are abusive, either.
Randall Hinton thought he was providing a service at Tranquility Bay that was on the level of pizza delivery when he was scrubbing Layne's genitals with a toilet brush and teargassing him repeatedly in the course of a day. Randall still thinks he's an innocent victim, too. Let Angela post the names, these crying programees are like former Nazis claiming they were just following orders. Anyway, why come here to bitch about HEAL? Take your tears to Angela.
Yep. I couldn't agree more. As far as staff not wanting their names posted in association with reportedly abusive programs, well... ya lie down with dogs, chances are, yer apt to catch some fleas.
Like I posted (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=30239&p=361096#p361096) on the first page on this thread, before it descended into the abyss of Whooter-flagellation, Angela certainly has a point in listing all known staff associated with given abusive programs on her website. Even if those people have little to no contact with the students, they are legitimizing if not actually contributing to the "therapeutic milieu," which in and of itself is plenty abusive enough, regardless of whether any egregiously damaging events occur that they become aware of.
You could say they are accessories to the crime, wittingly or not. And they are hardly "innocent" if they witness inappropriate goings on and do not report said events to the police, or to DHS or a similar such agency.
In fact, from what I understand, it was precisely such a person, a part-time van driver at Mount Bachelor Academy, who had the intact presence of mind and moral fortitude to do the right thing and alert authorities as to what was actually going on there. And we all know now how that turned out for MBA.
Most staff that figure out the poop on a place don't hang around too long thereafter. Unless they are in agreement with it. In which case... :D
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Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
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Excellent thinking and mentality. I am right with all of you on this thinking. Get a load of this………We have a guy in town who is the maintenance person for the local Catholic school and has 8 children. As long as he works for the school his kids get a free education there. This guy dam well knows that these priests are pedophiles yet he works for them and sends his kids in this place like sheep. He has one daughter who wants to work for Catholic charities after college. How screwed up is that? Brainwashing at its lowest level and he is proud of her. WTF
This guy should be exposed because he is as bad as the pedos he is working for. We should run people like this out of town, their social values are like a cancer and we should not have to be forced to live with their kind.
If someone is even seen mowing the grass for a program or church group he should be exposed and ridiculed openly on the internet along with his entire family. They all know where the money is coming from. The UPS guy should be dragged out into the street and beaten with the same restraints he is delivering. Dont get me started!
And another thing….the dam kids who leave the fact that they attended a program off their resume. WTF is that all about? Why are they trying to be deceitful? They screwed up and needed some straightening out. They should friggin own this. Their future employers and spouses should have this information about them. If its not on their resume they should be branded liars and this information should be posted openly for their friends and family to read.
...
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Excellent thinking and mentality. I am right with all of you on this thinking. Get a load of this………We have a guy in town who is the maintenance person for the local Catholic school and has 8 children. As long as he works for the school his kids get a free education there. This guy dam well knows that these priests are pedophiles yet he works for them and sends his kids in this place like sheep. He has one daughter who wants to work for Catholic charities after college. How screwed up is that? Brainwashing at its lowest level and he is proud of her. WTF
This guy should be exposed because he is as bad as the pedos he is working for. We should run people like this out of town, their social values are like a cancer and we should not have to be forced to live with their kind.
If someone is even seen mowing the grass for a program or church group he should be exposed and ridiculed openly on the internet along with his entire family. They all know where the money is coming from. The UPS guy should be dragged out into the street and beaten with the same restraints he is delivering. Dont get me started!
And another thing….the dam kids who leave the fact that they attended a program off their resume. WTF is that all about? Why are they trying to be deceitful? They screwed up and needed some straightening out. They should friggin own this. Their future employers and spouses should have this information about them. If its not on their resume they should be branded liars and this information should be posted openly for their friends and family to read.
...
:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:
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Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
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Excellent thinking and mentality. I am right with all of you on this thinking. Get a load of this………We have a guy in town who is the maintenance person for the local Catholic school and has 8 children. As long as he works for the school his kids get a free education there. This guy dam well knows that these priests are pedophiles yet he works for them and sends his kids in this place like sheep. He has one daughter who wants to work for Catholic charities after college. How screwed up is that? Brainwashing at its lowest level and he is proud of her. WTF
This guy should be exposed because he is as bad as the pedos he is working for. We should run people like this out of town, their social values are like a cancer and we should not have to be forced to live with their kind.
If someone is even seen mowing the grass for a program or church group he should be exposed and ridiculed openly on the internet along with his entire family. They all know where the money is coming from. The UPS guy should be dragged out into the street and beaten with the same restraints he is delivering. Dont get me started!
And another thing….the dam kids who leave the fact that they attended a program off their resume. WTF is that all about? Why are they trying to be deceitful? They screwed up and needed some straightening out. They should friggin own this. Their future employers and spouses should have this information about them. If its not on their resume they should be branded liars and this information should be posted openly for their friends and family to read.
...
::OMG:: :agree:
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Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
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People say report abusive staff. What about children? What about children who physically assault staff? What about children who physically assault other children? Should a child be charged if he or she incites a riot? Should a child be charged if he or she sneaks drugs into the program? Should a child be charged for bullying another child to the extent he or she takes their own life? Should a child be charged who nearly hits a staff in the head with a shovel during a riot? Should a child be charged when he or she causes bodily harm to a staff during a physical restraint, with the intent to do so? Should a child be charged with destruction of property when he or she throws a rock through a window in a program? Staff fuck up allot but children fuck up just as much in programs. I don't this is something we can ignore as much as we would like to.
I look forward to some colorful reactions!
Actually, it's pretty black and white, Joel. :D
Ultimately, managing this kind of behavior is the program's responsibility. After all, they're in the business of selling their "behavioral health services!" And clearly not doing a very good job at it, if so many kids are that crazed and unhappy, and if there are not even enough trained staff on shift to preempt this type of chaos.
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Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
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Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
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:shamrock: :shamrock: :shamrock:
I was beginning to be believe the only kids fornits advocates for are the kids that don't belong in any programs of any type. Ya know the kids that their parents can afford $56,000.00, have extra change $ for a escort service to pick their kid up, their kid never smoked any pot, did great in school,their attitude was a little off, showed minor signs of depression, ya know generally was a good all around kid. Their parents were just fucked up and they happened to find a program that was inline with their fucked up way of thinking...But really it was the "Programs" that has built this "MATRIX" that just automatically brings these kids to their programs and nobody has any responsibility but the Programs.
Joel, your point of kids that are violent assaulting staff and other residents are true. These incidents happen more frequently then we like to think. Kids being admitted for violent tendencies into programs happens all the time I'm sure.
Guys we have to balance this out with the proper accountability going around to the three main players,
Programs, Parents and Children. There is no heavy handedness (in my opinion) in any one direction.
Danny
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People say report abusive staff. What about children? What about children who physically assault staff? What about children who physically assault other children? Should a child be charged if he or she incites a riot? Should a child be charged if he or she sneaks drugs into the program? Should a child be charged for bullying another child to the extent he or she takes their own life? Should a child be charged who nearly hits a staff in the head with a shovel during a riot? Should a child be charged when he or she causes bodily harm to a staff during a physical restraint, with the intent to do so? Should a child be charged with destruction of property when he or she throws a rock through a window in a program? Staff fuck up allot but children fuck up just as much in programs. I don't this is something we can ignore as much as we would like to.
I look forward to some colorful reactions!
http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/posting.php?mode=quote&f=22&p=361413#
Actually, it's pretty black and white, Joel. :D
Ultimately, managing this kind of behavior is the program's responsibility. After all, they're in the business of selling their "behavioral health services!" And clearly not doing a very good job at it, if so many kids are that crazed and unhappy, and if there are not even enough trained staff on shift to preempt this type of chaos.
:shamrock: :shamrock:
Ursus,
You would like to believe in your idealistic program world that this is true but it is just not the case. They can only manage as well as any other organization that handles a large amount of unruly spontaneous young adults. If your looking for perfection, well good luck. Those kids also have a responsibility to act humanly. There is a preemptive plan but that is only good if everyone acts according to the plan, if one or more of those kids decide not to play along your in for a long day or night.
Danny
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People say report abusive staff. What about children? What about children who physically assault staff? What about children who physically assault other children? Should a child be charged if he or she incites a riot? Should a child be charged if he or she sneaks drugs into the program? Should a child be charged for bullying another child to the extent he or she takes their own life? Should a child be charged who nearly hits a staff in the head with a shovel during a riot? Should a child be charged when he or she causes bodily harm to a staff during a physical restraint, with the intent to do so? Should a child be charged with destruction of property when he or she throws a rock through a window in a program? Staff fuck up allot but children fuck up just as much in programs. I don't this is something we can ignore as much as we would like to.
I look forward to some colorful reactions!
Actually, it's pretty black and white, Joel. :D
Ultimately, managing this kind of behavior is the program's responsibility. After all, they're in the business of selling their "behavioral health services!" And clearly not doing a very good job at it, if so many kids are that crazed and unhappy, and if there are not even enough trained staff on shift to preempt this type of chaos.
:shamrock: :shamrock:
Ursus,
You would like to believe in your idealistic program world that this is true but it is just not the case. They can only manage as well as any other organization that handles a large amount of unruly spontaneous young adults. If your looking for perfection, well good luck. Those kids also have a responsibility to act humanly. There is a preemptive plan but that is only good if everyone acts according to the plan, if one or more of those kids decide not to play along your in for a long day or night.
Danny
Jeeeez, Danny, now where on earth would you get those ideas in yer head? You're so busy trying to deflect blame off of the program, that you're too busy to actually even read my post!
Of course, the child has responsibility for their behavior as well. But it is not in the same order of magnitude that the program has. After all, the child has not the full spectrum of legal rights, either. Rights and responsibilities go hand in hand.
Moreover, something really should be said about the therapeutic milieu. This is what the program is selling. And this is really what is so friggin' toxic about programs, across the board, doesn't matter if a kid acts up or not.
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People say report abusive staff. What about children? What about children who physically assault staff? What about children who physically assault other children? Should a child be charged if he or she incites a riot? Should a child be charged if he or she sneaks drugs into the program? Should a child be charged for bullying another child to the extent he or she takes their own life? Should a child be charged who nearly hits a staff in the head with a shovel during a riot? Should a child be charged when he or she causes bodily harm to a staff during a physical restraint, with the intent to do so? Should a child be charged with destruction of property when he or she throws a rock through a window in a program? Staff fuck up allot but children fuck up just as much in programs. I don't this is something we can ignore as much as we would like to.
I look forward to some colorful reactions!
Actually, it's pretty black and white, Joel. :D
Ultimately, managing this kind of behavior is the program's responsibility. After all, they're in the business of selling their "behavioral health services!" And clearly not doing a very good job at it, if so many kids are that crazed and unhappy, and if there are not even enough trained staff on shift to preempt this type of chaos.
:shamrock: :shamrock:
Ursus,
You would like to believe in your idealistic program world that this is true but it is just not the case. They can only manage as well as any other organization that handles a large amount of unruly spontaneous young adults. If your looking for perfection, well good luck. Those kids also have a responsibility to act humanly. There is a preemptive plan but that is only good if everyone acts according to the plan, if one or more of those kids decide not to play along your in for a long day or night.
Danny
Jeeeez, Danny, now where on earth would you get those ideas in yer head? You're so busy trying to deflect blame off of the program, that you're too busy to actually even read my post!
Of course, the child has responsibility for their behavior as well. But it is not in the same order of magnitude that the program has. After all, the child has not the full spectrum of legal rights, either. Rights and responsibilities go hand in hand.
Moreover, something really should be said about the therapeutic milieu. This is what the program is selling. And this is really what is so friggin' toxic about programs, across the board, doesn't matter if a kid acts up or not.
:shamrock: :shamrock:
Ursus,
I apologize if you felt I did not read your post correctly. I thought over the last 6 months of reading your posts I had gotten a bit educated on how you look at things, especially the blame.
Rights and responsibilities go hand in hand, child does not have the full spectrum of legal rights, therapeutic milieu, friggin toxic programs. Sounds alot like what Whooter was saying......
How about this, we grab some signs find some parents addresses and go and protest in front of their homes. This would definitely get attention from the media especially if we/they did this in multiple markets/cities. In my mind this would be the first step in accountability for the children. I have witnessed many a parent who have thrown up their hands and given up like it is their right to do so and place the responsibility on someone else.
Yes these programs are here and so far they have shown they aren't going anywhere as a matter of fact they are building new ones every year. I would love to believe if we just scream/write loud enough they will shut down and go away but that is not happening. So I/we got to thinking why are the parents getting a free ride here, they are just as culpable if not more then the Corporations.
Why, because this is their child.
Danny
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Ultimately, managing this kind of behavior is the program's responsibility.
The child has a responsibility in managing their behavior also Ursus.
Well. I'm aware of a young man who was placed in an extremely abusive program for depression and no other reason. The program deceived the young man's parents about the nature of the treatment, which was for far more extreme disorders but the lad's parents were paying out of pocket. After realizing the horrible duping he and his parents had received, the young man tried to tell his parents during a phone session that the program was not what had been promised, which caused the therapist to slam the phone down. How does a sane person react in an insane situation? This young man decided to give it to his captors in spades and get a message through to his parents. He went contrary to his peaceful nature and McGyver'ed up weapons to brutally pummel any staff within reach. To him, the staff were no different than Nazi guards and he wanted out. When the program complained to the boy's parents about the incredible violence he was inflicting on staff, his folks got the message loud and clear - something was dreadfully wrong. They pulled him out of the program and despite a little PTSD, he's fine and back to his non-violent ways.
If you work for a program, you ARE the program to the kids - you are confining them. Don't bitch about having your skull cracked with a toilet lid if you are a staffer, you signed up for the risk and a lot worse. The kid you have to fear the worst is the one who does not belong in a program - they will view it as false imprisonment and feel no guilt in dealing with their captors.
Once again, stop your bitching. I haven't seen a long list of dead program counselors yet, so I find any whining from staff repulsive.
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Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
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Don't bitch about having your skull cracked with a toilet lid if you are a staffer, you signed up for the risk and a lot worse.
[/i]
Despite your views it doesn't give children the right to assault staff including other children.
Actually, Joel, yes it does. The same way any kid taken by a kidnapper has the right to do whatever he can to escape.
Extra props to the kid who realized what he had to do to get the hell out of there.
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Don't bitch about having your skull cracked with a toilet lid if you are a staffer, you signed up for the risk and a lot worse.
[/i]
Despite your views it doesn't give children the right to assault staff including other children. Applies to staff as well. I am playing devils advocate sort of speak. Stopped working for Eckerd years ago. I am in a position to present views from both sides of the fence. You may have a hard time accepting my views but there is truth to them as much as people want to spin it.
True, but the young man in my post who resorted to violence was retaliating against it - and you are probably aware that self defense (for the kids) is not acceptable in an RTC. Beyond a doubt, the young man upped the ante on physical assaults - the staff who got the business end of the toilet lid (the kid spent a week unscrewing it during timed toilet breaks) left the hospital with stitches and left his job at the program the next day. People always have an option of working in an RTC, kids have no choice about being there. All it took was a well-swung piece of porcelain to cause one staff to reconsider his occupation, and he made a damned fine decision to abandon the TTI.
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True, but the young man in my post who resorted to violence was retaliating against it - and you are probably aware that self defense (for the kids) is not acceptable in an RTC. Beyond a doubt, the young man upped the ante on physical assaults - the staff who got the business end of the toilet lid (the kid spent a week unscrewing it during timed toilet breaks) left the hospital with stitches and left his job at the program the next day. People always have an option of working in an RTC, kids have no choice about being there. All it took was a well-swung piece of porcelain to cause one staff to reconsider his occupation, and he made a damned fine decision to abandon the TTI.
[/i]
I think you made some good points that self defense is not acceptable. Staff do take advantage of that, unfortunately and parents don't hear both sides of the story. They usually hear from the staff. Kids are put in a situation where they have to resort to violence to defend themselves. The way I see it, this will be a never ending cycle. Outside of the self defense issue I still stand by my earlier posts.
I should have added this to my post - I hate to see anyone hurt, staff or kid. If the young man had killed the staff with the toilet lid, it would have been unbelievably tragic. But these are kids being placed in extraordinary circumstances that are alien and terrifying to them, with violent restraints and screaming being par for the course. Placed in that kind of fight or flight mode, not wanting to be the next victim, I can see why kids use any means necessary to escape, even if it means attacking one of their captors to get away.
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People always have an option of working in an RTC, kids have no choice about being there.
Everyone has an option to control their own behavior and they should be held accountable for it. Prisoners cannot just take the business end of a toilet seat and hit a guard over the head with it. Kids in detention at school cannot just break a chair over their teachers back because they are held there and kids in programs cant act violent towards staff or one another without being held accountable for their actions. If you speak to any of the kids who went to a program they all know their reign of terror was coming to an end. They knew they were breaking the rules at home, not going to school etc. and had plenty of opportunity to change, but choose not to. So they shouldn’t sit there and play the victim while mom and dads savings is slowing being depleted to try and get your butt straightened out. They are in a program for a reason and they all know it. Its time to stop blaming others and get to work on themselves. Violence isn’t going help.
I don’t think there is one example of any child improving their situation by being violent towards a staff member or other child in the program.
...
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Ultimately, managing this kind of behavior is the program's responsibility.
The child has a responsibility in managing their behavior also Ursus.
Well. I'm aware of a young man who was placed in an extremely abusive program for depression and no other reason. The program deceived the young man's parents about the nature of the treatment, which was for far more extreme disorders but the lad's parents were paying out of pocket. After realizing the horrible duping he and his parents had received, the young man tried to tell his parents during a phone session that the program was not what had been promised, which caused the therapist to slam the phone down. How does a sane person react in an insane situation? This young man decided to give it to his captors in spades and get a message through to his parents. He went contrary to his peaceful nature and McGyver'ed up weapons to brutally pummel any staff within reach. To him, the staff were no different than Nazi guards and he wanted out. When the program complained to the boy's parents about the incredible violence he was inflicting on staff, his folks got the message loud and clear - something was dreadfully wrong. They pulled him out of the program and despite a little PTSD, he's fine and back to his non-violent ways.
If you work for a program, you ARE the program to the kids - you are confining them. Don't bitch about having your skull cracked with a toilet lid if you are a staffer, you signed up for the risk and a lot worse. The kid you have to fear the worst is the one who does not belong in a program - they will view it as false imprisonment and feel no guilt in dealing with their captors.
Once again, stop your bitching. I haven't seen a long list of dead program counselors yet, so I find any whining from staff repulsive.
:shamrock: :shamrock:
First who asked for your opinion on staff and second who gives a shit what you think. Next time take the toilet seat and crack their parents head for sending their child to this place if their son had no problems. Stop your whining and bitching and go tell his parents.
Danny
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Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
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If the young man had killed the staff with the toilet lid, it would have been unbelievably lulzy.
Fixed.
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People always have an option of working in an RTC, kids have no choice about being there.
Everyone has an option to control their own behavior and they should be held accountable for it. Prisoners cannot just take the business end of a toilet seat and hit a guard over the head with it. Kids in detention at school cannot just break a chair over their teachers back because they are held there and kids in programs cant act violent towards staff or one another without being held accountable for their actions. If you speak to any of the kids who went to a program they all know their reign of terror was coming to an end. They knew they were breaking the rules at home, not going to school etc. and had plenty of opportunity to change, but choose not to. So they shouldn’t sit there and play the victim while mom and dads savings is slowing being depleted to try and get your butt straightened out. They are in a program for a reason and they all know it. Its time to stop blaming others and get to work on themselves. Violence isn’t going help.
I don’t think there is one example of any child improving their situation by being violent towards a staff member or other child in the program.
...
The young man I wrote about was incarcerated for depression, sorry you think he should be held accountable. Your kid seemed to suffer some post-program depression, so you should be sympathetic.
Danny B, I hope a toilet lid makes a solid connection with your cranium sometime soon and enlightens you, too.
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I should have added this to my post - I hate to see anyone hurt, staff or kid. If the young man had killed the staff with the toilet lid, it would have been unbelievably tragic. But these are kids being placed in extraordinary circumstances that are alien and terrifying to them, with violent restraints and screaming being par for the course. Placed in that kind of fight or flight mode, not wanting to be the next victim, I can see why kids use any means necessary to escape, even if it means attacking one of their captors to get away.
[/i]
You made a good point when you said, "I hate to see anyone hurts, staff or kid." I don't think anyone wants to see people hurt. What do you propose to stop this never ending cycle?
Scrap the TTI. Man, that's the easiest question I've had put before me, LOL.
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People always have an option of working in an RTC, kids have no choice about being there.
Everyone has an option to control their own behavior and they should be held accountable for it. Prisoners cannot just take the business end of a toilet seat and hit a guard over the head with it. Kids in detention at school cannot just break a chair over their teachers back because they are held there and kids in programs cant act violent towards staff or one another without being held accountable for their actions. If you speak to any of the kids who went to a program they all know their reign of terror was coming to an end. They knew they were breaking the rules at home, not going to school etc. and had plenty of opportunity to change, but choose not to. So they shouldn’t sit there and play the victim while mom and dads savings is slowing being depleted to try and get your butt straightened out. They are in a program for a reason and they all know it. Its time to stop blaming others and get to work on themselves. Violence isn’t going help.
I don’t think there is one example of any child improving their situation by being violent towards a staff member or other child in the program.
...
The young man I wrote about was incarcerated for depression, sorry you think he should be held accountable. Your kid seemed to suffer some post-program depression, so you should be sympathetic.
Danny B, I hope a toilet lid makes a solid connection with your cranium sometime soon and enlightens you, too.
:shamrock: :shamrock: :shamrock:
Once again we have a genius on board that can tell everyone what exactly the analysis is by reading a paragraph, thank you John Whooter Rueben. Instead of wanting to commit violence against me why don't you look at the injustice his parents put upon this young man for just being depressed as you said, kipnapping, imprisonment, forced feeding of a philosophy bordered on cultist ect.....
Danny
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Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
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The young man I wrote about was incarcerated for depression, sorry you think he should be held accountable.
People are not incarcerated for depression. People don’t get promoted for hitting their boss. They don’t get “A’s” for not studying. They don’t get accolades for skipping school. They don’t get a free pass for hitting someone over the head with a toilet seat. This is fantasy on your part.
Every kid in a program knows why they are there. They may not tell you , but they know why.
...
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The young man I wrote about was incarcerated for depression, sorry you think he should be held accountable.
People are not incarcerated or depression. People don’t get promoted for hitting their boss. They don’t get “A’s” for not studying. They don’t get accolades for skipping school. They don’t get a free pass for hitting someone over the head with a toilet seat. This is fantasy on your part.
Every kid in a program knows why they are there. They may not tell you , but they know why.
...
:shamrock: :shamrock:
Thank You,
I am not saying that I agree to send children to these places but there is a problem at home and mommy and daddy are willing to give up responsibility. Please spare me this story that they (parents) are buffaloed, they are usually smarter have more degrees then the folks (program folk) there talking too. They want a reprieve and are willing to sacrifice their child to do it, don't believe me look at your parents they did it without bating a eye.
Danny
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I absolutely support the rights of kids to defend themselves with violence in programs. Programs are attacking them every single damn day and programs have killed some of them. One of these days I'm going to get it into my head to write up that Guide to violent revolt for program captives.
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[
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Every kid in a program knows why they are there. They may not tell you , but they know why.
...
Ah, Whooter is the Shadow now and he knows what evil lurks in the hearts of the kids. It's like the old Chinese proverb: "Beat your wife every day. You may not know why you're doing it, but she certainly knows". That was your everyday philosophy, wasn't it Whooter?
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And fornits is like so fucken credible lately to even point fucken fingers at anyone..priceless and yet amusingly funny as hell.
Fornits doesn't hold itself up as an advocacy site. It's just a message board.
and shit i rather see someone down to fucken earth then some lame ass fake ass people that have been running around here, they only stay your friends when they try to use you for their purposes.
In my opinion Angela rocks and God Bless her in her efforts, this is a nasty thing we are up against and God Bless her and I would stand behind her before half the lunitics on here.
Alrighty then. :eek:
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Every kid in a program knows why they are there. They may not tell you , but they know why.
Yeah, I know why I was there. My dad was a fucking control freak.
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The young man I wrote about was incarcerated for depression, sorry you think he should be held accountable.
People are not incarcerated for depression. People don’t get promoted for hitting their boss. They don't get "A's" for not studying. They don't get accolades for skipping school. They don't get a free pass for hitting someone over the head with a toilet seat. This is fantasy on your part.
Employing the broad brush today, eh?
Of course kids get locked up for depression. Kids are enrolled in program all the time for "self-esteem issues," for "bad attitudes," for "suspicious malingering"... As to why that apparently is reason enough to enroll a kid in a friggin' program? Talk to their marketing department. Oh, right, you would know about that now, wouldn't you? :D
Every kid in a program knows why they are there. They may not tell you , but they know why.
They may know why the program or their parents think they should be there. Given enough time and coercive persuasion, those folks may even the convince a kid they're right. That doesn't necessarily make it so, however...
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We know, we know. All the kids in programs were just seconds away from getting a full scholarship to an ivy league school and never missed a day when they were suddenly plucked up and set down into a program and have no understanding of why they are there.
Prison:
“How many of you are innocent? Give me a show of hands.”
Mental Hospital:
How many of you should be allowed back in society? Give me a show of hands”
Program:
“How many of you don’t deserve to be here? Give me a show of hands.”
...
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We know, we know. All the kids in programs were just seconds away from getting a full scholarship to an ivy league school and never missed a day when they were suddenly plucked up and set down into a program and have no understanding of why they are there.
Prison:
"How many of you are innocent? Give me a show of hands."
Mental Hospital:
How many of you should be allowed back in society? Give me a show of hands"
Program:
"How many of you don't deserve to be here? Give me a show of hands."
Such a bitter, bitter man. :D
All of those things have happened and continue to happen. There are kids locked up in juvie and mental institutions for no better reason than that they ran away from abusive home environments. Same with programs.
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We know, we know. All the kids in programs were just seconds away from getting a full scholarship to an ivy league school and never missed a day when they were suddenly plucked up and set down into a program and have no understanding of why they are there.
Prison:
“How many of you are innocent? Give me a show of hands.”
Mental Hospital:
How many of you should be allowed back in society? Give me a show of hands”
Program:
“How many of you don’t deserve to be here? Give me a show of hands.”
Difference being, prisoners have due process and have to be convicted of a crime before being incarcerated. Mental patients, in FL at least, can only be held against their will for 72 hours unless a qualified psychiatrist diagnoses them as an imminent danger to themselves or others. Kids in programs get the benefit of neither a conviction nor diagnosis before the parent is free to abdicate their responsibilities.
But at least we're getting a glimpse of how you view children. They have no rights and are comparable to convicted criminals and mental patients. Gotcha.
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Every kid in a program knows why they are there. They may not tell you , but they know why.
Yeah, I know why I was there. My dad was a fucking control freak.
Daddy issues, makes sense now why you obsess over every word Whooter types. Remember when you called him "Daddy"?
That was some creepy shit!
:twofinger:
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All of those things have happened and continue to happen. There are kids locked up in juvie and mental institutions for no better reason than that they ran away from abusive home environments. Same with programs.
:waaaa: :roflmao: :fuckoff:
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Every kid in a program knows why they are there. They may not tell you , but they know why.
Yeah, I know why I was there. My dad was a fucking control freak.
Daddy issues, makes sense now why you obsess over every word Whooter types. Remember when you called him "Daddy"?
That was some creepy shit!
:twofinger:
Nope. Never called him daddy but he sure does remind me of the same twisted mentality. It is creepy.
:twofinger: :twofinger: :twofinger:
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Difference being, prisoners have due process and have to be convicted of a crime before being incarcerated. Mental patients, in FL at least, can only be held against their will for 72 hours unless a qualified psychiatrist diagnoses them as an imminent danger to themselves or others. Kids in programs get the benefit of neither a conviction nor diagnosis before the parent is free to abdicate their responsibilities.
Once the child is of age then they get the benefit of the court system. This isn’t any one particular persons fault. It’s the way the majority of the people voted in this country. Once these kids turn 18 they can change the laws to allow kids to get legal representation at age 12 if they like. But we have all been 12 years old in our lifetime and the majority of us agree with the present law or we would have changed it a long time ago.
But at least we're getting a glimpse of how you view children. They have no rights and are comparable to convicted criminals and mental patients. Gotcha.
Exactly, no rights for children until they become old enough and kids in programs can be compared to convicted criminals and mental patients on the specific level I spoke of. For example if I told you that someone I knew was as honest as Abe Lincoln it doesn’t mean he necessarily has a beard and stove top hat. If I said my neighbor had a beard like Abe Lincoln it would necessarily mean he was tall or honest. So I am not comparing kids in programs to criminals and mental patients on all levels.
I understand that many struggle with this connection here so I tend to repeat it for re-education and clarification purposes.
As an aside: I thinks its telling that you still blame your father after all these years and at the same time blame the program for tearing families apart.
...
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Once the child is of age then they get the benefit of the court system.
My point was that in the juvenile court system, there is due process. Not so with programs.
As an aside: I thinks its telling that you still blame your father after all these years and at the same time blame the program for tearing families apart.
Well, it's true. He's isolated himself from and written off all family and friends who don't subscribe to his all or nothing mentality. It's sad really. He's a lonely old man and probably going to die that way.
I've got an amazing husband of 20 years now, great job, standing in the community (hell, we even joined the damned yacht club), couple of awesome kids, great friends and other family but he refuses to speak to me because I drink and partake of the ganja. A long time ago Straight told him that was the right thing to do and he still, after 20+ years, follows them to the letter. Funny, I found out that two of his friends regularly smoke but they begged me not to tell him for fear of his reaction and what he would spread around their community about them. Incidentally, those friends also told me that he misses me terribly but his pride won't allow him to bend. Again, very sad.
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My point was that in the juvenile court system, there is due process. Not so with programs.
There is really no need for due process. The kids that I knew who went to a program didn’t commit any crime which would require the intervention of the government. The kids in programs are mostly at-risk kids who are there getting help at the request of their parents. Half the kids in the private school I attended wish they could just attend public school so they wouldn’t have to wear uniforms and follow all the rules. But we need to do what our parents say until we are old enough.
Sorry about your Dad. I know people who dig their heals in because they are just true believers. Could have been a book they read or a priest that turned their head or a programs belief. Other parents take away from a conversation what works for their families and then they leave the rest.
...
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My point was that in the juvenile court system, there is due process. Not so with programs.
There is really no need for due process. The kids that I knew who went to a program didn’t commit any crime which would require the intervention of the government. The kids in programs are mostly at-risk kids who are there getting help at the request of their parents. Half the kids in the private school I attended wish they could just attend public school so they wouldn’t have to wear uniforms and follow all the rules. But we need to do what our parents say until we are old enough.
Wrong. If our parents attempted to have us committed (which is what they're doing by sending them off to programs), they would be required to have us diagnosed by a psychiatrist. By being able to send kids off to a place that purports to engage in "treatment" at simply the request of a parent, it completely circumvents basic human rights, which children already have.
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We know, we know. All the kids in programs were just seconds away from getting a full scholarship to an ivy league school and never missed a day when they were suddenly plucked up and set down into a program and have no understanding of why they are there.
Prison:
“How many of you are innocent? Give me a show of hands.”
Mental Hospital:
How many of you should be allowed back in society? Give me a show of hands”
Program:
“How many of you don’t deserve to be here? Give me a show of hands.”
Guilty Program Parents:
"How many of you feel no accountability for your child's death? Show 'em that hand, Johnny Boy!"
...
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I commend Whooter for his positive energy because he wants to bring families together. There is nothing wrong with his intentions to help parents of juvenile delinquents like yourselves. The fact is many of you still need therapy because you live in the past. I think your narrow mindset on therapy leads you to believe they are cult members. Please consider therapy as soon as possible.
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Anne Bonney and Whooter have a sick and twisted codependent relationship, like most of the core group of fornits losers do.
:waaaa:
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I commend Whooter for his positive energy because he wants to bring families together. There is nothing wrong with his intentions to help parents of juvenile delinquents like yourselves. The fact is many of you still need therapy because you live in the past. I think your narrow mindset on therapy leads you to believe they are cult members. Please consider therapy as soon as possible.
Please blow it out your ass. I don't need, nor did I ask for help or your opinion. I like my life just fine, the way it is now. It took a lot of hard work to shake off the cult mindset, but it can be done.
:moon:
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Anne's attitude represents the mindset of many troubled teens who refuse to get appropriate treatment. I think Anne has many issues she needs to work through in her life but she refuses to acknowledge that. She believes therapy consists of wallowing in self pity with other mentally confused people on this website. This approach will be detrimental to her success in life, I don't know if Anne understands this.
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Wrong. If our parents attempted to have us committed (which is what they're doing by sending them off to programs), they would be required to have us diagnosed by a psychiatrist. By being able to send kids off to a place that purports to engage in "treatment" at simply the request of a parent, it completely circumvents basic human rights, which children already have.
No it doesn’t. There are no human rights which require a person to be diagnosed by a psychiatrist prior to being committed. These are rights that have been given to adults (voted in) to protect them from being committed by family members to gain control of their lives or estate. Parents already have control of their children’s finances and life. The children are not being striped of any rights by being sent to a program.
Programs have a beginning and an end point. Being committed does not.
...
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Whooter I think you are correct but Anne will let her program experience cloud her judgement.
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Anne Bonney and Whooter have a sick and twisted codependent relationship, like most of the core group of fornits losers do.
:waaaa:
Wow and your here because you are so damn superior...lmao priceless and yet ignorant to even post something of this nature during a Heal Thread. I have never fully agrreed with either at times and found a couple posts I did not prefer, but I will tell you what they give a lot to many on here. With a name like Suck It.........I tend to question your abilities.
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Anne's attitude represents the mindset of many troubled teens who refuse to get appropriate treatment. I think Anne has many issues she needs to work through in her life but she refuses to acknowledge that. She believes therapy consists of wallowing in self pity with other mentally confused people on this website. This approach will be detrimental to her success in life, I don't know if Anne understands this.
And who are you exactly to make such snap judgments about a person you have never met?
I commend Whooter for his positive energy because he wants to bring families together. There is nothing wrong with his intentions to help parents of juvenile delinquents like yourselves. The fact is many of you still need therapy because you live in the past. I think your narrow mindset on therapy leads you to believe they are cult members. Please consider therapy as soon as possible.
I've seen therapy. Real therapy. It's what showed me so clearly how what went on in program was anything but. And who are you to call us all juvenile delinquents. You have no idea of our ages, occupations, or current levels of success. It seems to me that anybody who disagrees with your interpretation of what many programs do is automatically labeled in your mind as sick or in denial. It's prejudice, pure and simple.
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I've seen therapy. Real therapy. It's what showed me so clearly how what went on in program was anything but. And who are you to call us all juvenile delinquents. You have no idea of our ages, occupations, or current levels of success. It seems to me that anybody who disagrees with your interpretation of what many programs do is automatically labeled in your mind as sick or in denial. It's prejudice, pure and simple.
Therapy starts when you admit you have a problem. It is like AA when people admit they have problems controlling their drinking. You don't like the term juvenile delinquent because you put yourself in that category before you were sent to Benchmark. The big problem with children, which most people on this website are, they refuse to accept why they put themselves in the position to be sent to a program.
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I've seen therapy. Real therapy. It's what showed me so clearly how what went on in program was anything but. And who are you to call us all juvenile delinquents. You have no idea of our ages, occupations, or current levels of success. It seems to me that anybody who disagrees with your interpretation of what many programs do is automatically labeled in your mind as sick or in denial. It's prejudice, pure and simple.
Therapy starts when you admit you have a problem. It is like AA when people admit they have problems controlling their drinking.
That implies that if somebody goes to therapy they must have a problem. What about those who are forced or tricked into it. There is no diagnosis beforehand or due process so how is there a guarantee there is something wrong? All that exists are the fears of the parent which may or may not be rational and based in solid fact. You assume guilt, you assume sickness, before any diagnosis is made.
You don't like the term juvenile delinquent because you put yourself in that category before you were sent to Benchmark.
I was not a delinquent. I did not have a problem. I did not need fixing and even if I did it should have been my choice and what they did would not have helped with any problem if I had one. I was immature, I was naive, I was too trusting. I trusted authority (though I had issues with my parents, i admit). I thought if I minded my manners and did the thing the program wanted they would let me graduate. They lied to me. They lied to my parents. They messed with my head and with those around me. The problem was not mine, it was theirs.
The big problem with children, which most people on this website are, they refuse to accept why they put themselves in the position to be sent to a program.
And you've already come to the conclusion that despite lack of diagnosis or due process, we all needed it. In your mind the accused is guilty and any denial is further evidence of guilt. It's a catch 22... a witch dunking.
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I was not a delinquent. I did not have a problem. I did not need fixing and even if I did it should have been my choice and what they did would not have helped with any problem if I had one. I was immature, I was naive, I was too trusting. I trusted authority (though I had issues with my parents, i admit). I thought if I minded my manners and did the thing the program wanted they would let me graduate. They lied to me. They lied to my parents. They messed with my head and with those around me. The problem was not mine, it was theirs.
So if you did not have a problem, why were you sent to a program? The only thing you admitted was you had issues with your parents. I think there is more to it than that but it is clear you're still in denial.
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there are innocent people listed on her site, in association with programs she deems as "abusive". This is a public, searchable site and their information being listed can be very damaging to them professionally (many employess are in a support capacity, i.e. ap/ar, HR, accounting, administrative assistants, etc and have little to no contact with the students, and do not want their names affiliated with "child abuse" when applying for positions in unrelated industries). I understand many programs are abusive, and questionable in their practices...but painting every employee of just about every private school in the country with the same brush..is in and of itself abusive and damages HEAL's credibility...as well as the focus on "animal's" and the "earth" in addition to teens...she is trivializing her own plight.
You cannot accuse people of something such as ABUSING children, without proof and not have outsiders question the intent, purpose, and professional caliber of the accuser. It damages the anti-behave mod industry as a whole when extremists like Angela Smith are driving the bus, in the public eye. (Do one google search and she is right there at the top, jihad and all.)
I do not work in the industry, nor am i former student. I live within seconds of Sagewalk, and miles from MTBA. I wanted to know, as a person with an unclear understanding of the industry as a whole who lives within a community of former staffers, how she came upon her conclusions that ALL of the staff at afore mentioned programs were infact guilty of abuse. Instead of an explanation, I was threatened with a law suit, personally insulted, threatened with arrest, threatened with the FBI, PETA (i used to raise registered english lops) among other things. She also immediately targeted two former employees of MTBA in association with me, how or why she came to this conclusion is BEYOND me...she even accused me of pretending to be a lawyer representing these people..which is laughable.
Immediately I began to question her creidibility, not the programs i initially contacted her about.
I'm really not in any position to comment on what transpired in your communications with Angela Smith, so I'm not even gonna go there. Period ... on that issue.
However, personally, I do think Angela has a point in listing all known staff associated with given abusive programs on her website. Even if those people have little to no contact with the students, they are legitimizing if not actually contributing to the "therapeutic milieu," which in and of itself is plenty abusive enough, regardless of whether any egregiously damaging events occur that they become aware of.
You could say they are accessories to the crime, wittingly or not. And they are hardly "innocent" if they witness inappropriate goings on and do not report said events to the police, DHS, or the like.
In fact, from what I understand, it was precisely such a person, a part-time van driver at Mount Bachelor Academy, who had the intact presence of mind and moral fortitude to do the right thing and alert authorities as to what was actually going on there. And we all know now how that turned out for MBA.
Perhaps these people may have taken on such a job unwittingly, and then realized what kind of a hornet's nest they entered, and then left in short order. Those folk's names do not grace the staff rosters of program after program, unlike many in the industry. That much becomes pretty clear after you've perused Angela's staff lists for a time.
:shamrock: :shamrock:
Ursus,
Have you lost your mind or what, such broad statements coming from someone again who has never put anything on the line in this industry. In my opinion bro, you are a phony MF for even uttering that bullshit above there. If no one else will say it I will.
Danny
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Wake up
Call Elan for my daily instructions
Post on Fornits
Hit the Crack Pipe
Post on Fornits
Jones for more
Post on Fornits
Mug Old Lady
Post on Fornits
Suck the Glass Dick
Post on Fornits
Peep out Window for Police
Post on Fornits
Smoke more Crack
Post on Fornits
Look for rock I think I dropped on the Floor
Post on Fornits
Find “rock” on Floor and smoke it
Rock on Floor is piece of toast FUCK!
Clean Pipe and Jones
Post on Fornits
Get more Crack
Post on Fornits
FREAK OUT
Post on Fornits
Read my AA Big Book while furiously yanking my limp ass “coke dick”
Post on Fornits
Drink Wild Irish Rose
Post on Fornits
:shamrock: :shamrock: :shamrock: :shamrock: :shamrock:
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I was not a delinquent. I did not have a problem. I did not need fixing and even if I did it should have been my choice and what they did would not have helped with any problem if I had one. I was immature, I was naive, I was too trusting. I trusted authority (though I had issues with my parents, i admit). I thought if I minded my manners and did the thing the program wanted they would let me graduate. They lied to me. They lied to my parents. They messed with my head and with those around me. The problem was not mine, it was theirs.
So if you did not have a problem, why were you sent to a program?
I wasn't. I was sent to a boarding school recommended by an educational consultant. Neither myself or my parents (they claim, and i believe them) knew it was a behavior modification program. At the time we weren't getting along due to various complex reasons and since it was too late to enroll in a normal school and since we all really wanted a break from each other I agreed to enroll in what I thought was a fairly normal place with *optional* therapy in the afternoons which I did not plan to participate in. I had no idea there was a level system or that the school was not actually a school (education was done at a local adult school we were bussed to and supervised at). I had no idea communication would be cut, that my property and identification would be confiscated, etc etc...
The only thing you admitted was you had issues with your parents. I think there is more to it than that but it is clear you're still in denial.
You can choose to believe whatever you wish but it doesn't make it the truth.
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Ursus,
Have you lost your mind or what, such broad statements coming from someone again who has never put anything on the line in this industry. In my opinion bro, you are a phony MF for even uttering that bullshit above there. If no one else will say it I will.
Danny
And you say soooooo much ... of such substance, eh?
So you don't like it that a part-time van driver at Mount Bachelor did more for ending the abuse there, than you ever did for Elan. I know, you were barely more than a kid back then. I'll be the first to say it in your defense. But it gets kinda hard when you react so defensively and call me nasty names all the time.
Btw, nice to see that you're finally getting the hang of the quote feature. It really does make your posts so much easier to read. Or was this Liza posting on this occasion? :D
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Ursus,
Have you lost your mind or what, such broad statements coming from someone again who has never put anything on the line in this industry. In my opinion bro, you are a phony MF for even uttering that bullshit above there. If no one else will say it I will.
Danny
And you say soooooo much ... of such substance, eh?
So you don't like it that a part-time van driver at Mount Bachelor did more for ending the abuse there, than you ever did for Elan. I know, you were barely more than a kid back then. I'll be the first to say it in your defense. But it gets kinda hard when you react so defensively and call me nasty names all the time.
Btw, nice to see that you're finally getting the hang of the quote feature. It really does make your posts so much easier to read. Or was this Liza posting on this occasion? :D
:shamrock: :shamrock:
Ursus we are back where we always are you just spouting off opinions, wishing you had some experience in what you are actually talking about and criticizing folks who do.
If you don't like the nasty names stop being nasty with your outlandish provocative statements that you have no proof of, please your weak assumption of why the driver did what he did is that weak, you don't know why. You did not talk with him.
There are many staff out there who were admirable in their jobs in programs and for you to wholesale discredit them is crazy, you have no experience and or suitable proof to make such a accusation.
BTW you may continue to say my post are of a defensive nature because that is pretty much what you say to whooter or anyone one else that disagrees with you or calls you out. Helps you to feel superior.
Danny
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Ursus,
Have you lost your mind or what, such broad statements coming from someone again who has never put anything on the line in this industry. In my opinion bro, you are a phony MF for even uttering that bullshit above there. If no one else will say it I will.
Danny
And you say soooooo much ... of such substance, eh?
So you don't like it that a part-time van driver at Mount Bachelor did more for ending the abuse there, than you ever did for Elan. I know, you were barely more than a kid back then. I'll be the first to say it in your defense. But it gets kinda hard when you react so defensively and call me nasty names all the time.
Btw, nice to see that you're finally getting the hang of the quote feature. It really does make your posts so much easier to read. Or was this Liza posting on this occasion? :D
:shamrock: :shamrock:
Ursus we are back where we always are you just spouting off opinions, wishing you had some experience in what you are actually talking about and criticizing folks who do.
Ah, but I doooooooo have "some experience" in this! Perchance you need to actually read a bit more ... before you react.
If you don't like the nasty names stop being nasty with your outlandish provocative statements that you have no proof of, please your weak assumption of why the driver did what he did is that weak, you don't know why. You did not talk with him.
Which "outlandish provocative statements" are we talking about here? Usually I'm accused of being too boring.
Also, as a matter of fact, I did have more than a smidgen of communication with that van driver. I trust that I have communicated her motivations adequately, albeit somewhat circumspectly for reasons of privacy. Did you even bother to try finding that out before posting your (truly) outlandish assumptions?
There are many staff out there who were admirable in their jobs in programs and for you to wholesale discredit them is crazy, you have no experience and or suitable proof to make such a accusation.
And I didn't "wholesale discredit them." Where did you read that? Or are you still falling back on the old blast-any-opposition-to-all-hell methodology that Elan taught you?
BTW you may continue to say my post are of a defensive nature because that is pretty much what you say to whooter or anyone one else that disagrees with you or calls you out. Helps you to feel superior.
Danny
You'll have to explain that one a little better. I have no idea what you're talking about here.
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Ursus we are back where we always are you just spouting off opinions, wishing you had some experience in what you are actually talking about and criticizing folks who do.[/quote
Ursus spoke:
Ah, but I doooooooo have "some experience" in this! Perchance you need to actually read a bit more ... before you react.
:shamrock: :shamrock:
Danny spoke:
I am talking experience as staff, counselor, driver, dog walker, something to do with a program.
:shamrock: :shamrock:
If you don't like the nasty names stop being nasty with your outlandish provocative statements that you have no proof of, please your weak assumption of why the driver did what he did is that weak, you don't know why. You did not talk with him.
Ursus spoke:
Which "outlandish provocative statements" are we talking about here? Usually I'm accused of being too boring.
:shamrock: :shamrock:
DannyBII spoke:
No you have been accused of having boorish behavior.
:shamrock: :shamrock:
Ursus spoke:
Also, as a matter of fact, I did have more than a smidgen of communication with that van driver. I trust that I have communicated her motivations adequately, albeit somewhat circumspectly for reasons of privacy. Did you even bother to try finding that out before posting your (truly) outlandish assumptions?
:shamrock: :shamrock:
DannyBII spoke:
So I am to understand that you traveled to investigate this van drivers story, talked with her and then came back to report her facts of the program. With the umbrella of reporter-informant protection.
:shamrock: :shamrock:
There are many staff out there who were admirable in their jobs in programs and for you to wholesale discredit them is crazy, you have no experience and or suitable proof to make such a accusation.
Ursus spoke:
And I didn't "wholesale discredit them." Where did you read that? Or are you still falling back on the old blast-any-opposition-to-all-hell methodology that Elan taught you?
:shamrock: :shamrock:
DannyBII spoke:
Dude I am not going back to copy your long incrimination of staff being accessories to the fact of abuse...bla bla bla. If you can't remember so be it. You did go all out to discredit staff.
Your so cute with your "blast any opposition methodology" speech.
:shamrock: :shamrock:
BTW you may continue to say my post are of a defensive nature because that is pretty much what you say to whooter or anyone one else that disagrees with you or calls you out. Helps you to feel superior.
Danny
Ursus spoke:
You'll have to explain that one a little better. I have no idea what you're talking about here.[/quote][/quote]
:shamrock: :shamrock:
DannyBII spoke:
Use your brain a harder you'll figure it out.
:shamrock: :shamrock:
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I wasn't. I was sent to a boarding school recommended by an educational consultant. Neither myself or my parents (they claim, and i believe them) knew it was a behavior modification program. At the time we weren't getting along due to various complex reasons and since it was too late to enroll in a normal school and since we all really wanted a break from each other I agreed to enroll in what I thought was a fairly normal place with *optional* therapy in the afternoons which I did not plan to participate in. I had no idea there was a level system or that the school was not actually a school (education was done at a local adult school we were bussed to and supervised at). I had no idea communication would be cut, that my property and identification would be confiscated, etc etc...
Psy you are one interesting character. It goes from having issues with your parents to not getting along with them. Were you mouthing off to them, swearing at them, running away from home, skipping school, fighting, drinking or engaging in sexually unacceptable behaviors? Kids don't get sent to boarding schools because they smoked cigars. Why else would they send you to a boarding school where you had to do therapy?
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I wasn't. I was sent to a boarding school recommended by an educational consultant. Neither myself or my parents (they claim, and i believe them) knew it was a behavior modification program. At the time we weren't getting along due to various complex reasons and since it was too late to enroll in a normal school and since we all really wanted a break from each other I agreed to enroll in what I thought was a fairly normal place with *optional* therapy in the afternoons which I did not plan to participate in. I had no idea there was a level system or that the school was not actually a school (education was done at a local adult school we were bussed to and supervised at). I had no idea communication would be cut, that my property and identification would be confiscated, etc etc...
Psy you are one interesting character. It goes from having issues with your parents to not getting along with them.
The two are synonymous. What's your problem?
Were you mouthing off to them, swearing at them, running away from home, skipping school, fighting, drinking or engaging in sexually unacceptable behaviors?
Swearing? sometimes. Skipping school? I was home schooled. Fighting? no. Drinking? Once i got drunk, but it was legal at the time in the country I was in and I never did it again by my own choice. It's not something my parents were upset about and they did not list it as an issue with the school (program). The chief differences were with sexuality, politics and religion. If I find the link to my intake form somewhere around here I'll link you to it.
Kids don't get sent to boarding schools because they smoked cigars.
Listen. Were you in the program I was in? Kids were there because their parents were led to believe that the program could help their kids deal with diagnoses like ADHD and aspergers syndrome (mild high functioning autism). A few were there for drugs, yes, but it wasn't a majority. The program marketed itself with scatter-gun tactics and once the kids were in used the same cookie cutter approach to treat everything. All problems were framed as addictions to be overcome. It was absurd. They applied AA philosophy to everything, used Synanon confrontational tactics on everybody including those with anxiety attacks, and put perma-trip acid heads through LGAT seminars. One kid became convinced he was addicted to caffiene and that a single M&M would cause him to throw chairs. Another parent was allegedly told that the program could cure her daughter of schizophrenia, that it was an addiction she could overcome with the will of the higher power. It was quackery. It was bullshit. It was not therapy and it did not help anybody, especially those who needed it and even those who actually wanted it. As far as i'm concerned the system was rigged for profit. As malicious as it sounds I believe Jayne Longnecker to be a complete and utter sociopath: driven by nothing but profit.
Why else would they send you to a boarding school where you had to do therapy?
"Had to do" was not what neither my parents nor myself was led to believe. We were led to believe that participation was voluntary. I did not intend to participate and was blunt about it. I have a right to defer to my own judgment on matters that concern my own mental health. Nobody has a right to force another person to undergo medical treatment, much less quackery. I told them I would comply with the rules of the program and do my level requirements as requested but that I was not going to change my fundamental views and values. I felt there was nothing wrong with myself, my philosophy, my worldview, anything. Those things were not relevant to mental health anyway. Proper therapists respect that people are individuals and encourage them to form their own conclusions. That was unacceptable to them so they broke me down until I changed. That was unethical of them to do.
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Kids were there because their parents were led to believe that the program could help their kids deal with diagnoses like ADHD and aspergers syndrome (mild high functioning autism).
Do you have a link to support your claim? Proof? Evidence?
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Kids were there because their parents were led to believe that the program could help their kids deal with diagnoses like ADHD and aspergers syndrome (mild high functioning autism).
Do you have a link to support your claim? Proof? Evidence?
See the FAQ here under "what issues does Benchmark cator to":
http://homepage.mac.com/psyborgue/faq.html (http://homepage.mac.com/psyborgue/faq.html)
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I was not a delinquent. I did not have a problem. I did not need fixing and even if I did it should have been my choice and what they did would not have helped with any problem if I had one. I was immature, I was naive, I was too trusting. I trusted authority (though I had issues with my parents, i admit). I thought if I minded my manners and did the thing the program wanted they would let me graduate. They lied to me. They lied to my parents. They messed with my head and with those around me. The problem was not mine, it was theirs.
So if you did not have a problem, why were you sent to a program?
I wasn't. I was sent to a boarding school recommended by an educational consultant. Neither myself or my parents (they claim, and i believe them) knew it was a behavior modification program. At the time we weren't getting along due to various complex reasons and since it was too late to enroll in a normal school and since we all really wanted a break from each other I agreed to enroll in what I thought was a fairly normal place with *optional* therapy in the afternoons which I did not plan to participate in. I had no idea there was a level system or that the school was not actually a school (education was done at a local adult school we were bussed to and supervised at). I had no idea communication would be cut, that my property and identification would be confiscated, etc etc...
Lol. Same thing at Hyde School! The plan was that I go to boarding school. There were some issues at home that weren't working out and putting a change of physical location and separation between differing parties was considered to be the ticket. There were no issues with my school attendance, drugs, sex, what-not. I was, all things considered, a pretty boring kid. Hyde gave my family a real hard sell. It was "just like those other prep schools, but with an added bonus" - the 'character education' component.
<cough>
Little did we know that it actually was a character cult.
The degree of spin that these places employ when it comes to their marketing is pretty difficult for the average person to believe.
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A website is not legitimate proof Psy as much as you would like to think it is. Do you have any documents that could verify your claim of "Kids were there because their parents were led to believe that the program could help their kids deal with diagnoses like ADHD and aspergers syndrome."
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A website is not legitimate proof Psy as much as you would like to think it is. Do you have any documents that could verify your claim of "Kids were there because their parents were led to believe that the program could help their kids deal with diagnoses like ADHD and aspergers syndrome."
Check the sources. It links to Benchmark's own marketing material. If they're marketing to that crowd it's reasonable to think their program population matches.
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To psy and Ursus, Che, Joel, Inculcate,
Ursus and psy, remember this below, it speaks volumes of your lack of experience and your need to overcompensate with your intellect. Your mommy and daddy held the cards and dealt you both like a straight flush, whether you want to admit this or not. Your lack of experience and real life maturity does not qualify you as having a credible input into the decision your referring to. I find it hard to believe nobody had any idea what was going on and when you did realize why it did not stop immediately. Parents not being able to talk with their children draws a major red flag in most households I know, especially since you two were such wonderful children.
What a fucking stretch in thinking from you two.
Che and Joel, you did not even go to a program. Working for one buys you a cup of coffee buts stills doesn't let you in.
Inculcate, I just don't know....? Yet you actually really care for this site and people. I feel that and never acknowledge it.
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=30239&start=90 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=30239&start=90)
Examples:
Psy spoke:
I wasn't. I was sent to a boarding school recommended by an educational consultant. Neither myself or my parents (they claim, and i believe them) knew it was a behavior modification program. At the time we weren't getting along due to various complex reasons and since it was too late to enroll in a normal school and since we all really wanted a break from each other I agreed to enroll in what I thought was a fairly normal place with *optional* therapy in the afternoons which I did not plan to participate in. I had no idea there was a level system or that the school was not actually a school (education was done at a local adult school we were bussed to and supervised at). I had no idea communication would be cut, that my property and identification would be confiscated, etc etc...
Ursus spoke:
Lol. Same thing at Hyde School! The plan was that I go to boarding school. There were some issues at home that weren't working out and putting a change of physical location and separation between differing parties was considered to be the ticket. There were no issues with my school attendance, drugs, sex, what-not. I was, all things considered, a pretty boring kid. Hyde gave my family a real hard sell. It was "just like those other prep schools, but with an added bonus" - the 'character education' component.
<cough>
Little did we know that it actually was a character cult.
The degree of spin that these places employ when it comes to their marketing is pretty difficult for the average person to believe.
DannyB II spoke:
About as complicated as your spin on what happened. Not very!!!!!!!
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To psy and Ursus, Che, Joel, Inculcate,
Ursus and psy, remember this below, it speaks volumes of your lack of experience and your need to overcompensate with your intellect. Your mommy and daddy held the cards and dealt you both like a straight flush, whether you want to admit this or not. Your lack of experience and real life maturity does not qualify you as having a credible input into the decision your referring to. I find it hard to believe nobody had any idea what was going on and when you did realize why it did not stop immediately. Parents not being able to talk with their children draws a major red flag in most households I know, especially since you two were such wonderful children.
What a fucking stretch in thinking from you two.
Che and Joel, you did not even go to a program. Working for one buys you a cup of coffee buts stills doesn't let you in.
Inculcate, I just don't know....? Yet you actually really care for this site and people. I feel that and never acknowledge it.
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=30239&start=90 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=30239&start=90)
Examples:
Psy spoke:
I wasn't. I was sent to a boarding school recommended by an educational consultant. Neither myself or my parents (they claim, and i believe them) knew it was a behavior modification program. At the time we weren't getting along due to various complex reasons and since it was too late to enroll in a normal school and since we all really wanted a break from each other I agreed to enroll in what I thought was a fairly normal place with *optional* therapy in the afternoons which I did not plan to participate in. I had no idea there was a level system or that the school was not actually a school (education was done at a local adult school we were bussed to and supervised at). I had no idea communication would be cut, that my property and identification would be confiscated, etc etc...
Ursus spoke:
Lol. Same thing at Hyde School! The plan was that I go to boarding school. There were some issues at home that weren't working out and putting a change of physical location and separation between differing parties was considered to be the ticket. There were no issues with my school attendance, drugs, sex, what-not. I was, all things considered, a pretty boring kid. Hyde gave my family a real hard sell. It was "just like those other prep schools, but with an added bonus" - the 'character education' component.
<cough>
Little did we know that it actually was a character cult.
The degree of spin that these places employ when it comes to their marketing is pretty difficult for the average person to believe.
DannyB II spoke:
About as complicated as your spin on what happened. Not very!!!!!!!
I guess you missed this:http://http://edwork.edgeboss.net/wmedia/edwork/fc/fc042408.wvx
http://http://edlabor.house.gov/hearings/2008/04/child-abuse-and-deceptive-mark.shtml
:agree:
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To psy and Ursus, Che, Joel, Inculcate,
Ursus and psy, remember this below, it speaks volumes of your lack of experience and your need to overcompensate with your intellect. Your mommy and daddy held the cards and dealt you both like a straight flush, whether you want to admit this or not. Your lack of experience and real life maturity does not qualify you as having a credible input into the decision your referring to. I find it hard to believe nobody had any idea what was going on and when you did realize why it did not stop immediately. Parents not being able to talk with their children draws a major red flag in most households I know, especially since you two were such wonderful children.
What a fucking stretch in thinking from you two.
Che and Joel, you did not even go to a program. Working for one buys you a cup of coffee buts stills doesn't let you in.
Inculcate, I just don't know....? Yet you actually really care for this site and people. I feel that and never acknowledge it.
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=30239&start=90 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=30239&start=90)
Examples:
Psy spoke:
I wasn't. I was sent to a boarding school recommended by an educational consultant. Neither myself or my parents (they claim, and i believe them) knew it was a behavior modification program. At the time we weren't getting along due to various complex reasons and since it was too late to enroll in a normal school and since we all really wanted a break from each other I agreed to enroll in what I thought was a fairly normal place with *optional* therapy in the afternoons which I did not plan to participate in. I had no idea there was a level system or that the school was not actually a school (education was done at a local adult school we were bussed to and supervised at). I had no idea communication would be cut, that my property and identification would be confiscated, etc etc...
Ursus spoke:
Lol. Same thing at Hyde School! The plan was that I go to boarding school. There were some issues at home that weren't working out and putting a change of physical location and separation between differing parties was considered to be the ticket. There were no issues with my school attendance, drugs, sex, what-not. I was, all things considered, a pretty boring kid. Hyde gave my family a real hard sell. It was "just like those other prep schools, but with an added bonus" - the 'character education' component.
<cough>
Little did we know that it actually was a character cult.
The degree of spin that these places employ when it comes to their marketing is pretty difficult for the average person to believe.
DannyB II spoke:
About as complicated as your spin on what happened. Not very!!!!!!!
I guess you missed this:http://http://edwork.edgeboss.net/wmedia/edwork/fc/fc042408.wvx
http://http://edlabor.house.gov/hearings/2008/04/child-abuse-and-deceptive-mark.shtml
:agree:
Felice, I get perfectly what you are conveying in this post and you know I do. I haven't missed anything concerning this industry for 32 years.
Thanks anyways, Felice