Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: katfish on March 30, 2010, 04:27:31 PM
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http://cafety.org/privately-funded-prog ... r-sagewalk (http://cafety.org/privately-funded-programs/794-media-release-sheriff-recommends-death-by-homicide-at-sagewalk-or-sagewalk)
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Sagewalk is/was part of Aspen Ed, right?
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Yes, the same one of the recent Mount Bachelor Academy child abuse noteriety.
More on Sergey's final (and dehumanizing) days of life:
http://cafety.org/privately-funded-prog ... tion-group (http://cafety.org/privately-funded-programs/788-sagewalk-death-brat-camp-aspen-education-group)
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It's absolutely sickening! That these people are allowed anywhere near kids just saddens me to no end. It truly does. So, how many deaths has Aspen racked up now?
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This.....
Although most were medically trained, investigation identified issues which may have brought medical practices into conflict with program practices, and this conflict having a significant impact on Sergey Blashchishen's death.
Smacks of the holier than thou attitude of Straight and Miller Newton. We all remember him continuously telling us that we "forfeited our rights" because we were "druggies". The unmitigated gall of these people. What's that C.S. Lewis quote?
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." C.S. Lewis
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The circumstances of this death mirror so many others.
Note that when it was clear Sergey was in real trouble, the staff's first call was NOT to 911, but to the program management. They did not have the child's best interests in mind, but the program's.
Despicable.
Interesting also that the sheriff is recommending charges agains the Aspen corporation, as well as the individual staff members.
My deepest sympathies to Sergey's family. :( I can't imagine this brings them any peace, but I hope they can find some consolation.
Auntie Em
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Along with that it was written:
The pattern suggests that SageWalk, as a day care facility having a seemingly special right to press children to their maximum and beyond, is without the capability to separate symptoms of misbehavior from symptoms of approaching death,” Poré wrote.
This suggests, to me, that the staff in charge just didn’t know or were not trained to be able to effectively separate the symptoms. Then, again, maybe there is no way to tell the difference between misbehavior and real symptoms of a problem or impending death.
If it turns out that there isn’t a clear way to differentiate these two then the safer path will have to take precedence “ in every case” and eliminate this decision from the staff in the field. I cant see a solution other than this going forward if it is not a training issue.
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Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
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It's absolutely sickening! That these people are allowed anywhere near kids just saddens me to no end. It truly does. So, how many deaths has Aspen racked up now?
I agree with Anne Bonney here. When I worked with EYA we never had this problem in RI during long 20 day canoe trips. They had more than enough water to drink. The children had breaks. We had kids with medical conditions and managed to deal with them.
No offense, Joel, but sitting in a canoe in Rhode Island where it doesnt normally get above 85 degrees I dont think would put a child in as much danger as hiking in the desert. At least I think it was a very hot arid place. It seems that under the best of circumstances (if all the staff were properly trained) that they couldn't differentiate between a behavior issue and a medical issue.
It will be interesting to see how the investigation turns out.
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If the staff were properly trained, Whooter, the kid wouldn't be fucking dead.
Try again.
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If the staff were properly trained, Whooter, the kid wouldn't be fucking dead.
Try again.
Pile, I think the key to the investigation is to try to determine "root cause" and , although the sheriff is leaning towards a homicide charge, the investigation has indicated that a properly trained staff member would have a difficult time differentiating between a behavior issue and a medical issue.
So that tells us that even with properly trained staff it would be hard to tell if it were behavior or medical. So training doesn’t seem to be the issue here. It looks like it may be procedural (i.e. the staff calling home base vs. 911, staff choosing between behavior vs. medical). So going forward that means that every child will have to be treated medically whether it is a behavioral issue or not just to be on the safe side.
If this were done initially the child's life might have been saved.
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... although the sheriff is leaning towards a homicide charge, the investigation has indicated that a properly trained staff member would have a difficult time differentiating between a behavior issue and a medical issue....
From where have you gleaned that “indication”?
So training doesn’t seem to be the issue here.
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I think it is.
It looks like it may be procedural (i.e. the staff calling home base vs. 911, staff choosing between behavior vs. medical).
How long did the boy lay there following his collapse before 911 was called?
So going forward that means that every child will have to be treated medically whether it is a behavioral issue or not just to be on the safe side.
Maybe a little preventative care such as not depriving the child of hydration and nutrients should not be left as an after thought.
If this were done initially the child's life might have been saved...
That day, Blashchishen wrote a poem, in which he described the camp scene — “squirrels/running around/blue skies/green bushes and trees/but I’m still hungry.” (http://http://www.bendbulletin.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20091020/NEWS0107/910200398/1041&nav_category=)
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It's absolutely sickening! That these people are allowed anywhere near kids just saddens me to no end. It truly does. So, how many deaths has Aspen racked up now?
I agree with Anne Bonney here. When I worked with EYA we never had this problem in RI during long 20 day canoe trips. They had more than enough water to drink. The children had breaks. We had kids with medical conditions and managed to deal with them.
No offense, Joel, but sitting in a canoe in Rhode Island where it doesnt normally get above 85 degrees I dont think would put a child in as much danger as hiking in the desert. At least I think it was a very hot arid place. It seems that under the best of circumstances (if all the staff were properly trained) that they couldn't differentiate between a behavior issue and a medical issue.
It will be interesting to see how the investigation turns out.
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Joel's canoe trips where in Florida during the summer. I've taken the same trips several times, temperatures usually were in the 100s.
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From where have you gleaned that “indication”?
The pattern suggests that SageWalk, as a day care facility having a seemingly special right to press children to their maximum and beyond, is without the capability to separate symptoms of misbehavior from symptoms of approaching death,” Poré wrote.
Para phrase: I think training could make a difference.
You could be right, but the article (as it was written) seems to say that it was difficult to differentiate between misbehavior and symptoms.
How long did the boy lay there following his collapse before 911 was called?
Not sure, I would have to go back and read the article again.
Maybe a little preventative care such as not depriving the child of hydration and nutrients should not be left as an after thought.
Yes, I agree, This plays back into the training issue. People need to be kept hydrated. Once a person gets behind the curve and gets dehydrated it is difficult to continue to hike and replenish the body fluids.
That day, Blashchishen wrote a poem, in which he described the camp scene — “squirrels/running around/blue skies/green bushes and trees/but I’m still hungry.” (http://http://www.bendbulletin.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20091020/NEWS0107/910200398/1041&nav_category=)
I am not sure what you mean by this. The kid might have been very hungry? Are you suggesting that this contribute to his death? I believe fluids would have been better for him than food, in my opinion.
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The lack of training issue seems to be of interest here. Though if my memory serves one of the preqs for employment at most of these places seems to be the WEMT qualification, which dehydration is covered very thoroughly in that course.
So yeah if it is training the program is just as liable as the staff involved. Though I tend to suspect it is a combination of things. The onion of staff training gives staffers a series of conflicting obligations.
State says you must report abuse directly to state> program says you must report it to program first.
Medical training says you must call 911> program says you must call supervisor.
And it goes on and on...
Believe me.. its confusing at times.
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Joel's canoe trips where in Florida during the summer. I've taken the same trips several times, temperatures usually were in the 100s.
I was responding to the canoe trips in Rhode Island. see quote below:
When I worked with EYA we never had this problem in RI during long 20 day canoe trips.
It usually doesnt get that hot there and sitting in a canoe doesn't burn off as much energy or dehydrate you as much as hiking. I am sure the trips in Florida were much hotter.
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Yep, much hotter, I remember a kid having to be taken off the river and sent to the hospital due to dehydration. They sent him back to camp after that to wait for his group to return.
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I could see how you read that.
That day, Blashchishen wrote a poem, in which he described the camp scene — “squirrels/running around/blue skies/green bushes and trees/but I’m still hungry.” (http://http://www.bendbulletin.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20091020/NEWS0107/910200398/1041&nav_category=)
I am not sure what you mean by this. The kid might have been very hungry?.
From linked article:
Calorie count
The students later had a meal of rice and lentils. Though some students were allowed to ask for up to five cups of food, Blashchishen, as a newcomer, was offered just two, according to the affidavit.
DHS regulations for wilderness schools require all students to be offered no less than 3,000 calories of food per day.
Poré wrote that SageWalk staff members could not provide information about what else, if anything, Blashchishen ate before the meal of lentils and rice. He wrote that the boy could have had as few as 400 calories during the day.That day, Blashchishen wrote a poem, in which he described the camp scene — “squirrels/running around/blue skies/green bushes and trees/but I’m still hungry.”
Are you suggesting that this contribute to his death? I believe fluids would have been better for him than food, in my opinion...
Great observation Who, in addition to the proper nourishment and medical care that this boy was deprived of (on that death march) dehydration and heat were also factors in his mistreatment and demise.
Sagewalk also failed Sergey Blashchishen not just with regard to their inability to recognize a life threatening situation as it developed and their failure to respond appropriately. The use of a level system in this Aspen program included limiting the amount of food he received.
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Has there been any report of how much water the boy was drinking or if the staff was making him drink water? One thing I know about kids on hikes is you have to monitor their water intake very carefully. Meaning, you have group water drinking sessions where everyone drains down their canteen, refills them, and take a break in the shade for a bit before moving on. Also, the time when you actually hike is important.. as in middle of day or early morning or evening when it is cooler. Any of that information in the article/articles out there about this case?
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According to this (http://http://www.bendbulletin.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20091020/NEWS0107/910200398/1041&nav_category=) article the time of the march began at 11:45. Sergey was showing signs of heatstroke by 2pm. By 2:36 he had collapsed.
• Blashchishen carried his camping gear, food, water and clothing in a pack that weighed between 40 and 50 pounds
• About an hour later, one of the staff members noticed Blashchishen walking strangely. The group took a break and Blashchishen drank water and consumed electrolytes.
• As the hike went on, the staff members said Blashchishen fell several times, but pulled himself up and kept walking. Just after 2 p.m., staff members called the school’s field supervisor to report that Blashchishen had vomited, but the hike continued.
• Less than a half-hour later, about one mile from where the hike had begun, Blashchishen collapsed and lay on his back in the sun. The other students moved to the shade and began preparing lunch.
• Blashchishen declined the offer of food and shortly after began flailing his arms and yelling in a foreign language, according to the affidavit. Staff members said the boy began to hyperventilate before his breathing slowed and then stopped altogether.
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Great observation who,
Thanks, I feel that too much food can actually contribute to dehydration.
in addition to the proper nourishment and medical care that this boy was deprived of (on that death march) dehydration and heat were also factors in his mistreatment and demise.
Sagewalk also failed Sergey Blashchishen not just with regard to their inability to recognize a life threatening situation as it developed and their failure to respond appropriately. The use of a level system in this Aspen program included limiting the amount of food he received.
I am not sure if the level system contributed directly to his death, I didn’t see this mentioned. But I do agree with you that the inability to recognize a life threatening situation was probably key in this boys death. One question remains in my mind is if proper training would have averted this boys death. I am sure there must be some type of training that can be brought to these programs that could avert a situation like this.
It would be great If the investigation can determine root cause and help the next set of kids (and staff) to have a safer journey then this boy did. If it turns out to be better training then great. Or maybe they just err on the side of caution and have every child treated that exhibits these signs at an earlier stage. Either way I think that other wilderness programs will benefit from the investigation.
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Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhh...... That's not good. Middle of the day.. showing signs of dehydration.. they made him keep walking.. shit, with a 40 to 50 pound load.
And proper training was in place, at the very minimum they either had Wilderness first responder or Wilderness EMT, both of which cover dehydration, and the protocol for dealing with dehydration.
Neither courses suggest they keep hiking.
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Once again, he defends the indefensible. How many deaths does Aspen have to cause for you to, JUST ONCE, lay the blame with them??? Fucking shill.
Their first thought is to call program staff, not 911. Typically program. Don't involve any 'outsiders' unless you are forced to. Their intent is to make the hikes as hard as possible on the kids. The thought process behind it being that it'll "build character". Same deal with all the confrontation, humiliation etc.
That C.S. Lewis quote truly applies:
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
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http://www.suws.com/field_instructor.html (http://www.suws.com/field_instructor.html)
Ehh.. maybe I'm wrong on the WFR and WEMT qualification. I know in the past I've seen it advertised. Can't find a job page for Sagewalk, seems they aren't hiring for some reason. So apparently there are courses out there that turn groups of kids loose with people holding First Aid cards and nothing else.
errrr... Not sure what I think about that, guess it would come down to the training they are given during their employment orientation. But then, the above link isn't for Sagewalk, couldn't find anything for them as they aren't hiring.
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It defies logic that they would hike between 11 and 3 during the summer in the first place. This is the hottest part of the day. Are they closed right now? They dont seem to have a website up
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They were forcibly "closed for an investigation" after a kid died, and odds are they won't be reopening any time soon. Oregon's not Utah.
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I hope that some doctor did exam him before he went out there. It could be nice to know if he measured some kind of drug use. In Denmark some girls and boys have been poisoned with GHB in their drinks so they become easier targets. This family of drugs starts a potential dangerous overheating process. It is generally recommended that persons who have taken GHB are carefully monitored for 48-72 hours where they shouldn't do anything else than reading a newspaper or remain in a sofa.
Erica Harvey's mother (Her daughter died at Catherine Freer) did comment this case some months ago. From:
Losing Erica: Cynthia Clark Harvey Doesn't Want Anyone Else's Child to Die in a Wilderness-Therapy Program (http://http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/2009-11-05/news/losing-erica-cynthia-clark-harvey-doesn-t-want-anyone-else-s-child-to-die-in-a-wilderness-therapy-program), By Amy Silverman, Phoenix New Times, November 5, 2009
"I am sick, sad and angry," she wrote. "Sergey's last hours read like a re-enactment of Erica's, up to and including calling the program office before any emergency number, when the kid was, for all intents and purposes, already dead. WTF?????"
Her daugther had some drugs from GHB-family in her blood and she cooked to death because the parents information was ignored by the medical staff. What about Blashchishen? Did the medical exam show drugs and did the medical staff react to this?
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Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
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Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
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I think it's fair to assume you have no work experience with children on wilderness trips.
Thats a good assumption,Joel, and I would also add that It is also fair to assume that this applies to just about everyone on this forum,Joel. There are only 2 or three people, here on fornits, that I am aware of that have work experience with wilderness trips.
Behavior issues often result from dehydration, lack of food, lack of sleep, improper restraints, forced tripping (hiking, canoeing etc), inadequate clothing, staff believing he/she is "faking it" and lack of common sense from staff.
This was one of the points. If behavior issues can result from dehydration (as well as other medical causes) then how can a staff person tell the difference between just bad behavior vs. one that is caused by dehydration?
Staff are often guilty of focusing on what they perceive as "misbehaviors" rather than the root cause behind the child's actions.
If the staff “did” focus on what they perceived as “Misbehaviors” then they were doing their job. We couldn’t ask anymore from anyone.
This is one of the areas that the authorities are exploring…….Are they guilty because of lack of training? Were they trained improperly by the school? Did the staff disregard his/her training? Or is it just too difficult to determine cause when out in the field? Etc.
@Anne, Can you point out where I was defending the program? We are all looking for answers (including the authorities involved in the case) unlike yourself. Its curious that you continue to come here to fornits yet you appear to dislike open discussions.
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What a surprise. Aspen Education kills kids regularly and the sheriff believes they're just "lucky" they haven't killed more. What about the children and families for whom Aspen's luck has run out? These Aspen facilities should be forcibly closed.
There is no excuse whatsoever to send kids into harsh conditions with uneducated, untrained staff who subsequently murder them through abuse and neglect. Many child deaths at Aspen show that by shutting down Aspen programs lives will be saved. There's absolutely no evidence whatsoever that any lives will be saved by sending kids to Aspen programs, but lots of dead kids suggest that NOT sending them could save their lives.
Aspen Education KILLS CHILDREN IN THEIR CUSTODY. :poison:
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RMA experience:
My peer group and I were hiking in the Selkirk mountains. I was hiking down a rock, fell and broke my ankle. The surgery required 2 plates and 7 screws (if I remember correctly). When I broke my ankle RMA staff tried to carry me back to campsite. However, their attempt did not work. Eventually I told them, "Tape my ankle and I'll crawl back to campsite." It was not the best of times. I had to crawl over some big trees lying on the ground. When I crawled to the beginning of the trail, Zack Bonnie helped me walk back to campsite. In between crawling and walking on a broken ankle for almost a mile, it was a painful experience. When I arrived at my peer group's campsite, I told them I wanted to go down the hill even if it meant crawling three miles. They carried me three miles down a hill, on a litter, the next morning to a main road. They should have got me to the hospital ASAP, not the next morning. Another example how staff don't use common sense during medical emergencies.
I think that common sense is partially build on an individuals' life experiences so it can vary from person to person. It could be possible that the staff had never experienced a broken ankle before and therefore didn’t have any way of knowing that the ankle would get worse if left to rest overnight. I think a bigger question is how do you screen for commonsense when hiring someone? Will proper training override a lack of common sense?
We have seen highly trained doctors who leave their patients on the operating table while they go out to use the ATM machine which goes against most peoples definition of common sense. But the doctor didnt seem to see it as a problem. So it seems commonsense is a relative term and is dependent on an individuals point of view.
I wouldnt be too hard on the staff who carried you down the mountain the next day. They might have been doing what they thought was right.
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Once again, he defends the indefensible. How many deaths does Aspen have to cause for you to, JUST ONCE, lay the blame with them??? Fucking shill.
Their first thought is to call program staff, not 911. Typically program. Don't involve any 'outsiders' unless you are forced to. Their intent is to make the hikes as hard as possible on the kids. The thought process behind it being that it'll "build character". Same deal with all the confrontation, humiliation etc.
That C.S. Lewis quote truly applies:
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
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@Anne, Can you point out where I was defending the program? We are all looking for answers (including the authorities involved in the case) unlike yourself. Its curious that you continue to come here to fornits yet you appear to dislike open discussions.
Once again, he defends the indefensible. How many deaths does Aspen have to cause for you to, JUST ONCE, lay the blame with them??? Fucking shill.
So I will take that as you cant find a post of me defending the program.
Their first thought is to call program staff, not 911. Typically program. Don't involve any 'outsiders' unless you are forced to. Their intent is to make the hikes as hard as possible on the kids. The thought process behind it being that it'll "build character". Same deal with all the confrontation, humiliation etc.
So your thinking is the boys' death was caused by ineffective procedures which may have required the staff to notify their superiors prior to calling 911. This would alleviate the responsibility off of the staff and place it on the program. If the program required the staff to call them (prior to calling 911) and then they dragged their feet the program would be at fault (in my opinion) and would be a contributing factor in the boys death.
If, on the other hand, the staff was properly trained and made a conscious choice to call back to the program prior to calling 911 then this would place the blame on the individual staff member for not following procedures.
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Mmmmm hmm. Go on with your bad self. ::) ::)
How the fuck do you sleep at night?
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This is interesting. Compare this timetable, showing a hike of at least 3 hours:
According to this (http://http://www.bendbulletin.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20091020/NEWS0107/910200398/1041&nav_category=) article the time of the march began at 11:45. Sergey was showing signs of heatstroke by 2pm. By 2:36 he had collapsed.
• Blashchishen carried his camping gear, food, water and clothing in a pack that weighed between 40 and 50 pounds
• About an hour later, one of the staff members noticed Blashchishen walking strangely. The group took a break and Blashchishen drank water and consumed electrolytes.
• As the hike went on, the staff members said Blashchishen fell several times, but pulled himself up and kept walking. Just after 2 p.m., staff members called the school’s field supervisor to report that Blashchishen had vomited, but the hike continued.
• Less than a half-hour later, about one mile from where the hike had begun, Blashchishen collapsed and lay on his back in the sun. The other students moved to the shade and began preparing lunch.
• Blashchishen declined the offer of food and shortly after began flailing his arms and yelling in a foreign language, according to the affidavit. Staff members said the boy began to hyperventilate before his breathing slowed and then stopped altogether.
With this statement from Aspen Education Group this week, claiming a 2-hour hike:
Although we do not intend to publicly discuss the specifics of the incident during the ongoing investigation, we can provide assurances that the student was well cared for, appropriately fed, and provided multiple water and rest breaks during the two-hour hike.
Lie, twist and spin. These corporate adolescents need to be sent somewhere to deal with their defiance, lying and manipulation...a nice hike in the wilderness, methinks.
Auntie Em
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Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
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Lie, twist and spin. These corporate adolescents need to be sent somewhere to deal with their defiance, lying and manipulation...a nice hike in the wilderness, methinks.
Auntie Em
It is probably designed to be a 2 hour hike, AuntieEm2. Most of these wilderness programs take the same hike over and over again. This particular hike may have been designated as a 2 hour hike. It might have taken them a little longer because they took extra breaks because Sergey wasn’t feeling well.
Considering that the 2 hour hike took them and extra 50 minutes shows that the staff was concerned for Sergey and slowed down and took longer breaks, Maybe? There are many ways to interpret this. When you jump to conclusions like that AuntieEm2, you tend to show a prejudice side to your nature.
Consider this. It is a 4 hour drive from my house to NYC. I know because I have done it several times and if you ask anyone in my area (who has made the trip) they will tell you the same. If someone else were to take the same trip and stopped several times because someone in the car wasn’t feeling well or they drove slower doesn’t mean that anyone is lying to them. It is still considered a 4 hour drive even though it may take longer on occasions.
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I was expecting you to read between the lines but that was probably a bad move on my part.[/i]
Oh, I'm sure he 'got it'. It's just more of his attempts to spin, deflect and distract from the fact that this happening more and more often. Especially when it comes to Aspen Ed it seems.
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How concerned for Sergey were the staff while they stood there watching him die painfully and calling the office instead of 911?
Aspen Education KILLS CHILDREN. :poison: :suicide:
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I was expecting you to read between the lines but that was probably a bad move on my part.[/i]
Oh, I'm sure he 'got it'. It's just more of his attempts to spin, deflect and distract from the fact that this happening more and more often. Especially when it comes to Aspen Ed it seems.
Why dont you try to explain it then, Anne lol. I am sure you dont understand it. Give it a shot for once. You have been commenting on an article that you obviously never even read (again). I have ignored that fact and the others readers here are (again) being kind to you by not pointing that out and embarrassing you.
Go ahead and try to explain it and prove me wrong.
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Yeah, Anne. Let's talk about ANYTHING but the documented, proven fact that Aspen Education and its employees abuse, neglect, maim, rape and kill kids.
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Why dont you try to explain it then, Anne lol. I am sure you dont understand it. Give it a shot for once. You have been commenting on an article that you obviously never even read (again). I have ignored that fact and the others readers here are (again) being kind to you by not pointing that out and embarrassing you.
^^^More examples of why people consider you to be a pompous ass.
Go ahead and try to explain it and prove me wrong.
There's nothing to prove. He was saying that the "counselors" more often assume that the kid is 'misbehaving' or faking, instead of checking to make sure they're properly taken care of. You understood that's what he meant, but again tried to confuse the situation and thus, the reader. Deflection and spin. It's what you do man! Own it!
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Yeah, Anne. Let's talk about ANYTHING but the documented, proven fact that Aspen Education and its employees abuse, neglect, maim, rape and kill kids.
Yep.
Seriously, how many kids does that make that Aspen has killed now? And how many of those were either restraints or they were just hiked to death?
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There's nothing to prove. He was saying that the "counselors" more often assume that the kid is 'misbehaving' or faking, instead of checking to make sure they're properly taken care of. You understood that's what he meant, but again tried to confuse the situation and thus, the reader. Deflection and spin. It's what you do man! Own it!
wrong again, here it is:
Joel stated:
Behavior issues (Incorrect terminology Whooter used wrong place/wrong time) often result from dehydration, lack of food, lack of sleep, improper restraints, forced tripping (hiking, canoeing etc), inadequate clothing, staff believing he/she is "faking it" and lack of common sense from staff.
The article nor myself ever mentioned improper restraints,forced tripping, inadequate clothing etc. results in behavior issues. So any incorrect terminology was coming from Joel. If you had read the article you would have known this.
Lets try to keep the discussion on the topic at hand and dispense with the personal attacks. Take a few minutes to read the article and jump in.
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Of course I'm biased, Whooter, you twit.
My niece was held captive for more than 3 years with no contact with any family member other than her parents, and no treatment or support for the learning challenges she faces, just blame and shame, blame and shame.
Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. You are the one who won't admit to your biases.
And It is not a biased statement to say that there has been a finding of homicide in this boy's death--not manslaughter, not neglect, not accidental death, not oops-the-hike-took-longer-than-expected.
Homicide. That's murder, in case you misplaced your dictionary.
Auntie Em
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wrong again, here it is:
Joel stated:
Behavior issues (Incorrect terminology Whooter used wrong place/wrong time) often result from dehydration, lack of food, lack of sleep, improper restraints, forced tripping (hiking, canoeing etc), inadequate clothing, staff believing he/she is "faking it" and lack of common sense from staff.
The article nor myself ever mentioned improper restraints,forced tripping, inadequate clothing etc. results in behavior issues. So any incorrect terminology was coming from Joel. If you had read the article you would have known this.
Lets try to keep the discussion on the topic at hand and dispense with the personal attacks. Take a few minutes to read the article and jump in.
Just stop. Seriously. You're just embarrassing yourself. Again.
How many kids does Aspen have to kill in order for you to put at least a shred of the responsibility on them? Honestly, nobody who is "simply a program parent" would be spinning as hard as you've been trying to do.
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Yeah, Anne. Let's talk about ANYTHING but the documented, proven fact that Aspen Education and its employees abuse, neglect, maim, rape and kill kids.
Yep.
Seriously, how many kids does that make that Aspen has killed now? And how many of those were either restraints or they were just hiked to death?
Several in the past year. To go along with at least 3 facility closures for abuse and neglect that I'm aware of. Could be more though.
Aspen Education MURDERS CHILDREN IN ITS CARE. :poison: :peace:
Honestly, nobody who is "simply a program parent" would be spinning as hard as you've been trying to do.
True indeed, Anne. You can click on the link in my signature to see Whooter's original post where he claims a "fiduciary interest" in Aspen Education's potential takeover of HLA. He's no "regular parent." Far, far from it.
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My niece was held captive for more than 3 years with no contact with any family member other than her parents, and no treatment or support for the learning challenges she faces, just blame and shame, blame and shame.
… and thus the bases for a biased look at the industry.
Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. You are the one who won't admit to your biases.
I admit I have biases too (always have). But I try to take a more intellectual approach and realize that some programs can be bad and others can be good. I don’t respond with just my emotions or I would be trying to tell everyone that “All” programs are good and “All” children who go to them do extremely well.
See the difference?
And It is not a biased statement to say that there has been a finding of homicide in this boy's death--not manslaughter, not neglect, not accidental death, not oops-the-hike-took-longer-than-expected.
One person out of the investigators think this is a homicide case right now. There are others who have not classified it this way. Again your bias, the investigation is still on going.
If you look at your own post you will see that they made extra stops because of Sergey’s condition. If you think about another half hour break and the possibility that Sergey was not walking as fast as the others then it is easy to conclude that the 2 hour hike took much longer than expected.
Your bias was in the conclusion that the person making the statement (2 hour hike) was trying to deceive or telling a lie.
Homicide. That's murder, in case you misplaced your dictionary.
Wow!! You threw me a bone! I think we can agree on this one (without a dictionary). Now if you said suicide I might pause and have to look it up. lol
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My niece was held captive for more than 3 years with no contact with any family member other than her parents, and no treatment or support for the learning challenges she faces, just blame and shame, blame and shame.
… and thus the bases for a biased look at the industry.
And the basis for yours? $$$$$$$$$$$$. And, if you are Reuben, to justify what you paid people to do to your own child.
I admit I have biases too (always have). But I try to take a more intellectual approach
You fail.
One person out of the investigators think this is a homicide case right now. There are others who have not classified it this way. Again your bias, the investigation is still on going.
And how many kids does Aspen have to kill for you to put any of the responsibility on them? How many kids does Aspen have to kill, especially in the manner of restraint or hiking them to death, in order for you to see the systemic aspect of it?
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And the basis for yours?
I had a daughter who was very successful in the program she attended. So I would naturally be biased as being pro-program. But I have been able to step back and see the larger picture and realize that some kids don’t do well and some programs are not that healthy.
Many people posting on fornits are not able or willing to do this. They can only see the industry from a very narrow point of view and react via their own emotions vs using their intellegence. So that is why my opinion and outlook on the industry is more balanced, in my opinion..
And how many kids does Aspen have to kill for you to put any of the responsibility on them? How many kids does Aspen have to kill, especially in the manner of restraint or hiking them to death, in order for you to see the systemic aspect of it?
Well for the problem to be considered systemic I think we would have to look at how many kids are exposed to wilderness and what percentage of them die as a result. Compare this to something we would consider “Normal” like football camp or high school track (outward bound maybe) and see how out of skew the TTI is compared to these.
But to jump up and down everytime a kid chokes on a French fry to have McDonalds closed or want to close the public school system every time a child hangs themselves or is abused is reckless unless we understand the results. Are more kids are helped by the public school system then are hurt by it?
It is very possible that if they just closed all the wilderness programs that more kids would die from other causes. Its important that decisions be “Data driven” not just driven by one persons passion.
For me it is important to understand how these deaths occurred so that we can apply this knowledge to other existing programs to prevent this from happening again. To run around screaming “Lets shut down the industry” doesnt add any value or help the kids who are presently in programs.
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And the basis for yours?
I had a daughter who was very successful in the program she attended. So I would naturally be biased as being pro-program. But I have been able to step back and see the larger picture and realize that some kids don’t do well and some programs are not that healthy.
Many people posting on fornits are not able or willing to do this. They can only see the industry from a very narrow point of view and react via their own emotions vs using their intellegence. (sorry guys, snarky I know but I had to. you can't misspell the word intelligence and not be called on it) So that is why my opinion and outlook on the industry is more balanced, in my opinion..
And I maintain that there is no way in hell that someone who is "simply a program parent" would:
1. Remain here for the years you have
2. Defend every single thing programs do, no matter how reprehensible they are. Especially the deaths. And that you're so fucking cavalier about it. Refusing to even acknowledge that some of the most basic human rights are being denied these kids.
Well for the problem to be considered systemic I think we would have to look at how many kids are exposed to wilderness and what percentage of them die as a result. Compare this to something we would consider “Normal” like football camp or high school track (outward bound maybe) and see how out of skew the TTI is compared to these.
But to jump up and down everytime a kid chokes on a French fry to have McDonalds closed or want to close the public school system every time a child hangs themselves or is abused is reckless unless we understand the results. Are more kids are helped by the public school system then are hurt by it?
It is very possible that if they just closed all the wilderness programs that more kids would die from other causes. Its important that decisions be “Data driven” not just driven by one persons passion.
For me it is important to understand how these deaths occurred so that we can apply this knowledge to other existing programs to prevent this from happening again. To run around screaming “Lets shut down the industry” doesnt add any value or help the kids who are presently in programs.
Fuck off with your ridiculous analogies. It's all just more deflection. Just answer the damn question. How many kids does Aspen have to kill for you to lay ANY responsibility at all at their feet?
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Aspen Education programs and staff are abusing, neglecting and killing children. It only stands to reason that shutting Aspen Ed programs will prevent that abuse and murder. Conversely, keeping them open will create more abuse, neglect and killing.
This is the reasoning behind the state of Oregon's forcible closure of two Aspen facilities that investigators found to be "systematically abusing and neglecting children" in their care. So, at least for now, those Aspen Ed facilities won't be murdering any more kids. Therefore, child safety is increased.
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And I maintain that there is no way in hell that someone who is "simply a program parent" would:
1. Remain here for the years you have
2. Defend every single thing programs do, no matter how reprehensible they are. Especially the deaths. And that you're so fucking cavalier about it. Refusing to even acknowledge that some of the most basic human rights are being denied these kids.
You mistake looking for the truth and taking a balanced look for defending programs. Show me a post where I have defended the program against this childs death. You want me to close my eyes to any facts (like you do) and just say that all programs are harmful.
That wont happen and very few people outside of fornits think that way.
If you feel I am not a program parent that is your choice and is okay. I have my feelings about other posters here too that may or may not be true, so you are not alone.
Fuck off with your ridiculous analogies. It's all just more deflection. Just answer the damn question. How many kids does Aspen have to kill for you to lay ANY responsibility at all at their feet?
I answered that question but again you closed your mind to the answer. Let me re-answer without the analogies if that helps.
In order for us to consider the deaths to be systemic we would need to compare the TTI industry to other industries which we consider “Normal”… say football camp or outward bound programs to see how many deaths they incur per year. If the results show that wilderness programs have an extremely higher incidence of death then these acceptable activities do then I would say the problem may be systemic. But there is no magic number in my head.
How many deaths would you say is needed to determine the problem is systemic?
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You mistake looking for the truth and taking a balanced look for defending programs. Show me a post where I have defended the program against this childs death. You want me to close my eyes to any facts (like you do) and just say that all programs are harmful.
Don't think you have any clue what I 'want'.
If you feel I am not a program parent that is your choice and is okay. I have my feelings about other posters here too that may or may not be true, so you are not alone.
You might be, but also much more IMO. And if your daughter had such a wonderful experience, why not let her share it here? If she's so grateful and supportive of them, I'd think she'd be the one here day after day after day after day after day after day after day. You're getting first hand accounts of what it's like to be in one of the programs, yet all we get from you is your experience as an outsider. No matter how much 'family involvement' they claim there is, there is NO WAY IN HELL anyone can understand what it's like and the devastating consequences unless you've experienced it first hand.
I answered that question but again you closed your mind to the answer. Let me re-answer without the analogies if that helps.
And you go on to use yet another analogy.
In order for us to consider the deaths to be systemic we would need to compare the TTI industry to other industries which we consider “Normal”… say football camp or outward bound programs to see how many deaths they incur per year. If the results show that wilderness programs have an extremely higher incidence of death then these acceptable activities do then I would say the problem may be systemic. But there is no magic number in my head.
NO MORE ANALOGIES
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Don't think you have any clue what I 'want'.
For the record you have avoided my question twice to show me a post where I have defended the program against this boys death. I will take that as we agree that I am not defending the programs point of view in this thread.
You might be, but also much more IMO. And if your daughter had such a wonderful experience, why not let her share it here? If she's so grateful and supportive of them, I'd think she'd be the one here day after day after day after day after day after day after day. You're getting first hand accounts of what it's like to be in one of the programs, yet all we get from you is your experience as an outsider. No matter how much 'family involvement' they claim there is, there is NO WAY IN HELL anyone can understand what it's like and the devastating consequences unless you've experienced it first hand.
Again you take the narrow view. Step back a little and listen to what you are saying. You need to remember that there is no way in hell you could understand what it is like to be a program parent. Yet many of you pretend to know how we think and what lead to the placements. Whats is like to have a child in a program? You don’t have a clue. So you see there is a larger picture than just knowing how you feel or what its like to be in a program.
And you go on to use yet another analogy.
Read it Anne. Try to understand what I am saying. Its not an analogy.
If you are in a closed system and only look at the kids that die in programs how can you decide if the problem is unique to just programs or if children die at the same rate in other situations like public school or football camp etc. There is no way you can determine if a 1, 5, 10 deaths a year is a problem or out of the ordinary. How can you unless you have a benchmark to work from or to compare?
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Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
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You are actually telling me not to be hard on the staff? I am at a loss of words with you Whooter. What they thought was the right thing to do was serious negligence. The lead staff on the trip was Dan K who died years later. He led numerous wilderness trips and he should have know better. You have no idea how much pain I suffered that day, yet you say, "I wouldn't be too hard on the staff who carried you down the mountain the next day." Why should people have to explain the basics to you Whooter. Please save your ATM comparisons for the fool down the road.
Well there was information that wasn’t given. Were the staff trained properly to determine the difference between a sprained ankle and a broken ankle? When I was in my 20’s and if a buddy of mine tripped and broke/sprained his ankle in the woods I am not so sure I would be panicking thinking he was in serious enough trouble that we couldn’t rest for the night and see if the swelling went down. Then make a new assessment in the morning. Your in the woods there are not many options available. If this were at home I would have driven the guy over to the doctors to have it checked out, but I wouldn't call an ambulance even if I thought it were broken.
I don’t think resting for the night would be classified as serious negligence, Joel.
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Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
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Last time I sprained my ankle I couldn't walk for three days and I needed a prescription of Vicodin to manage the pain (well not really, but the doc was all class (http://http://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-smug.gif) ). So does it really matter if he broke his ankle or sprained it? Being unable to walk for either reason constitutes significant cause to get some medical attention on scene or immediately get the person to medical attention.
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Whooter this goes to show you have no knowledge through first hand work experience how medical emergencies should be handled. It doesn't matter where you are, a child should always, without question, should be evacuated immediately. If I pulled a stunt like this at EYA, I would have been in a world of hurt. Yes, failure to take immediate actions to get a child to a hospital constitutes negligence Whooter. Seriously Whooter, this goes beyond a training issue. Do I really need to spell it out for you?
Yes, it would be helpful to spell it out. You are right that I don’t have the training. But I find it hard to believe that they would have to evacuate a person with a potentially sprained or twisted ankle. Bringing a person out of the field the next day should be perfectly acceptable.
Are there any procedures or documentation available which would determine if the child should be brought out of the field immediately? What is this decision based on?
You initially mentioned commonsense would dictate.... but I have to disagree with you on this one, Joel.
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Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
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I stated earlier I had a broken ankle and surgery that required two plates n' seven screws. Do ya think that is sufficient enough reason to immediately evacuate someone to a hospital? My decision was based on a conclusion by a WFR with allot of experience. The X-Rays confirmed his findings.
All that information was not known while you were in the field, Joel. For all they knew you had a twisted ankle. They made the decision based on the information that they had and the experience and knowledge they possessed.
Bringing someone out of the field the next day, in this case, is never acceptable. Ya ever consider the risk of further bodily injury increases in cases like mine? Seriously Whooter, nobody on fornits should have to have this conversation with you.
I haven’t seen any evidence or documentation which would preclude removing you from the field as an emergency.
Again, are there any procedures which would dictate that a person needs to be evacuated immediately if they had signs of a swollen ankle or twisted ankle? When I was in boy scouts we would have toughed it out for a few days. I am not saying that is right and it is decades ago, but waiting a few hours till morning to see if the swelling goes down doesn’t constitute neglect in anyone’s handbook that I am aware of, Joel.
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Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
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I stated earlier I had a broken ankle and surgery that required two plates n' seven screws. Do ya think that is sufficient enough reason to immediately evacuate someone to a hospital? My beliefs were based on a conclusion by a WFR with allot of experience, who said my ankle was broken. The X-Rays confirmed his findings. Bringing someone out of the field the next day, in this case, is never acceptable. Ya ever consider the risk of further bodily injury increases in cases like mine? Seriously Whooter, nobody on fornits should have to have this conversation with you.
Do ya want me to take pictures of my left ankle to confirm the sugery? I could download them on photobucket then post them on fornits. Do ya want people to confirm my story whooter? Go ask half of peergroup 42 at RMA they'll tell ya all about it.
Sorry you need to get upset over this conversation. Maybe they should have med-i-flighted you out via helicopter, who knows you never produced any procedures which would dictate proper steps to be taken, maybe they didnt have any. What if they cut you open and found you had cancer or diabetes. Would you blame the field team for that too?
I believe you had a broken ankle, that is not the issue. The issue is if the field staff used proper steps in keeping you safe and getting you the medical help you needed within a reasonable time frame. It seems to me they used good judgment, stabilized you and settled you in for the night. The swelling didnt go down by morning so they evacuated you from the field and got you proper medical attention. Your life was never in danger that we know of. Neither one of us has documentation to support our points of view so it is only our opinions at this point.
If you really feel the program should have done more then I accept your feelings on this.
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Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
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I got diabetes two - three years ago Whooter, nice try with another irrelevant analogy. Ya got anymore foolish one liners you're going to throw my way Whooter?
You missed the point. The staff made the call based on the information they had at the time and felt they should stabilize you though the night and check the swelling in the morning. Doesnt really matter what they found once they got you to the hospital... i.e. cancer, diabetes etc..... the decision was made based in information present to them in the field.
Our youngest had testing done which reveled early-onset diabetes. We got her to the hospital and luckily the test was a false positive and she is okay. Hope they caught yours early enough.
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So staff has the training to make that sort of diagnosis in the field? The very first time I took a life saving course I remember being told to call 911 or get to the hospital. Nothing about waiting till the next day.
What sort of training gives staff the ability to make such a diagnosis? Not WFR, WEMT, or BLS... I know.. I have my own EMT cert from years gone by.
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Something else to consider:
I think one of the challenges that the staff have are the behavior issues of the children. If this were an outward bound group or a group of kids who wanted to be there then I think it would be easier to detect a problem because the kids would be more likely than not to want to continue on with the hike and reach their destination. If a child said they were hurting there would be no initial reason not to take them seriously.
But many of the kids in wilderness programs do not want to be there in the first place so many of them are not bought into the whole hiking thing and may want to slow down, come up with excuses to take more breaks or even disrupt the hike by faking an injury. The staff needs to work through this somehow and decipher which child is just dragging their feet and which child is truly suffering and needs a break.
I am not sure if there is special training for this or not, but I think we can all see this is unique to wilderness programs and posses special obstacles.
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For the record you have avoided my question twice to show me a post where I have defended the program against this boys death. I will take that as we agree that I am not defending the programs point of view in this thread.
Of course you will. Doesn't mean it's the truth, but you'll see what you want, not reality. You're a program apologist. No matter the issue, you're right here to explain why it isn't any fault of the program's and is the fault of the kids. I don't have time to list every single time you've done it because you do it with such regularity. Anyone who even takes a cursory glance at your posts sees that.
But again, whatever helps you sleep at night.
Again you take the narrow view. Step back a little and listen to what you are saying. You need to remember that there is no way in hell you could understand what it is like to be a program parent. Yet many of you pretend to know how we think and what lead to the placements. Whats is like to have a child in a program? You don’t have a clue. So you see there is a larger picture than just knowing how you feel or what its like to be in a program.
My concern isn't for the parents. They're not in any danger. The kids are. I don't have experience with having a child in a program because I did my fucking job of actually being a parent instead of outsourcing the job to strangers. I'm well aware of how scary adolescence can be, from the POV of a parent. I've been thru the sleepless nights, the worry and fear and somehow managed to raise decent kids (with their own issues and problems) without benefit of a goddamned program.
Read it Anne. Try to understand what I am saying. Its not an analogy.
If you are in a closed system and only look at the kids that die in programs how can you decide if the problem is unique to just programs or if children die at the same rate in other situations like public school or football camp etc. There is no way you can determine if a 1, 5, 10 deaths a year is a problem or out of the ordinary. How can you unless you have a benchmark to work from or to compare?
I've read it so please stop insisting that I haven't. When there appears to be a common denominator in the deaths or injuries (restraints or being hiked to death), one can infer that there is a problem.
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but I think we can all see this is unique to wilderness programs and posses special obstacles.
No, "we" (another way of you spinning things....speak for your fucking self) don't see that at all. This happened in Straight (and many other like programs) all the time. Kids were exercised to the point of passing out, vomiting, heat stroke. We were prodded and provoked and restrained for little or no reason and there were some DAMN serious injuries, i.e. broken bones, cessation of breathing. We were denied food, water, sleep and basic human contact until we complied, which is what it's all about. Forcing those damn druggie/defiant kids behave and conform!
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For the record you have avoided my question twice to show me a post where I have defended the program against this boys death. I will take that as we agree that I am not defending the programs point of view in this thread.
I don't have time to list every single time you've done it because you do it with such regularity. Anyone who even takes a cursory glance at your posts sees that.
Thank you for proving my point.......... you couldn't even find one.
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For the record you have avoided my question twice to show me a post where I have defended the program against this boys death. I will take that as we agree that I am not defending the programs point of view in this thread.
I don't have time to list every single time you've done it because you do it with such regularity. Anyone who even takes a cursory glance at your posts sees that.
Thank you for proving my point.......... you couldn't even find one.
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Oh fuck off.
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Here is a news piece containing both the press release from the Lake County Sheriff's office (the OP), as well as a statement released by Aspen Ed in response to those findings:
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KTVZ.com
Homicide charges possible in SageWalk student death (http://http://www.ktvz.com/Global/story.asp?S=12230428)
Posted: March 30, 2010 04:23 PM
From KTVZ.COM news sources
(http://http://ktvz.images.worldnow.com/images/12230428_BG1.jpg)
Officials with the parent company of Redmond's SageWalk Wilderness School could soon be facing homicide charges, for the death of a Portland teen on a class hiking trip last August.
That is, if the Lake County district attorney goes along with the recommendation of the chief investigator in the case.
Below is the full press release from the Lake County Sheriff's office:
"The Lake County Sheriff's Office has concluded its primary investigation into the death of Sergey Blashchishen in northern Lake County on August 28th, 2009. Sergey was attending SageWalk The Wilderness School when he died while participating in his first program hike.
Findings, investigative opinions, and recommendations have been prepared in a criminal investigations report. This report will now shortly be submitted to the Lake County District Attorney. Any recommendations of the report, including any recommendations for prosecution, are not binding on the District Attorney. Due to the size and complexity of the investigation and the report itself, it is not expected that any District Attorney opinion or charging decision will be forthcoming for a period of time.
Although the Department of Human Services Office of Investigations and Training conducted much of their investigation in cooperation with the Lake County Sheriff's Office, the separate investigations have separate responsibilities. The report of the State Medical Examiner has not been released. It is not expected that the findings of either DHS or the ME will be in conflict with the Sheriff's Office conclusions, but that when released, their findings will be based upon the mission and parameters of the respective agency. Additional support was provided during this investigation by the Oregon State Police, the Deschutes County Sheriff's Office, and the United States Bureau of Land Management. The Lake County Sheriff's Office is grateful to all persons, named and unnamed, who have contributed their assistance during this investigation.
Deputy Sheriff Chuck Poré has been the primary case investigator for the Lake County Sheriff's Office and is the report author. This investigation has included interviews of persons who were on the hike with Sergey Blashchishen and witnessed the incident and his death; interview of persons not on the hike but familiar with the program practices and procedures; and review of hundreds of documents from the Aspen Education Group and SageWalk The Wilderness School program. The investigation of the Lake County Sheriff's Office has made a recommendation that the manner of Sergey Blashchishen's death be identified as a homicide.
The prosecution of criminal charges have been recommended for the corporations responsible for the program which resulted in Sergey's death. At the time of his death, Sergey was on a program hike administered by several corporate employees known as field instructors. Although most were medically trained, investigation identified issues which may have brought medical practices into conflict with program practices, and this conflict having a significant impact on Sergey Blashchishen's death.
No recommendation has been made in the cases of the individual field instructors but a District Attorney review has been requested.
The media patience extended during the course of this investigation has been admirable. It is asked that you continue the same courtesy to the Office of the District Attorney as the District Attorney begins this next part of the investigation."
Aspen Education Group statement:
Representatives from SageWalk's parent company, Aspen Education Group, released the following statement to NewsChannel 21 Tuesday afternoon, in response to the Sheriff's Office's findings.
Following is a statement from Mark Dorenfeld, Senior Vice President, Western Division of Aspen Education Group.
March 30, 2010
"SageWalk Wilderness School strongly disagrees with the conclusions of the Sheriff's Office, particularly in the absence of a full report by the State Medical Examiner. We continue to be greatly saddened by this tragic accident and again wish to extend our deepest sympathies to the family and friends of this young man.
Although we do not intend to publicly discuss the specifics of the incident during the ongoing investigation, we can provide assurances that the student was well cared for, appropriately fed, and provided multiple water and rest breaks during the two-hour hike. In addition, he was accompanied on the hike by two Emergency Medical Technician (EMT) trained staff, one of whom never left his side. We are confident that we took every step possible to ensure the safety of this student, as we have done for every student over the course of our 12 year history.
Throughout this investigation, we have cooperated with the investigators and have shared all relevant information with them. We continue to await the results of the State Medical Examiner's report. We expect that, once all the facts are known, they will demonstrate that we acted carefully and responsibly, and we will be fully vindicated."[/list]
All content © Copyright 2000 - 2010 WorldNow and KTVZ. All Rights Reserved.
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Although we do not intend to publicly discuss the specifics of the incident during the ongoing investigation, we can provide assurances that the student was well cared for, appropriately fed, and provided multiple water and rest breaks during the two-hour hike. In addition, he was accompanied on the hike by two Emergency Medical Technician (EMT) trained staff, one of whom never left his side. We are confident that we took every step possible to ensure the safety of this student, as we have done for every student over the course of our 12 year history.
It will be very interesting to see the final report on this. I didn't realize that there were 2 EMT's on the hike with them.
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Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
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It's good to witness more people speaking out about cases of abuse and the overall abusive nature of these places. Of course then you have those who will attempt to hide and argue against the truth...
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According to this blog entry from earlier today, Sergey was wearing an 80-lb. backpack. Is this a typo? I seem to remember previous accounts putting it at 40-50 lbs. Perhaps it is usually 40-50 lbs., but having to carry the water for everyone made it substantially heavier...
At 10:30 AM, in 80-degree temperatures, a group of staff and students began hiking in a wilderness area managed by the Bureau of Land Management. As the newest student in the group, Sergey took the lead and was required to carry an 80-pound backpack that included water for the entire group. An hour into the hike, Sergey began acting strangely. At first he began staggering, then he drifted off course and eventually started falling down. It didn't occur to any of the staff members that this could be a telltale sign of a health emergency. Instead, the counselors assumed that Sergey was being disobedient and scolded him for his behavior. By 12:30 PM, Sergey appeared confused, started spitting and eventually reached the point of "shutdown." The staff monitored Sergey's fluctuating vital signs, but failed to call medical staff. Sergey vomited twice -- once with signs of blood. One staff member told investigators that he "wasn't overly concerned, because students in the program were always vomiting, though [he] didn't know why."[/list]
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mom logic
Troubled Teen's Death: Possible Homicide Charges (http://http://www.momlogic.com/2010/04/troubled_teens_death_possible_homicide_charges.php)
Thursday, April 1, 2010
filed under: gina kaysen fernandes
The Aspen Education Group has come under fire for the deaths of two teens at its treatment camps -- and momlogic is on the scene.
Gina Kaysen Fernandes (http://http://www.momlogic.com/bloggers/gina_kaysen_fernandes/stories/): momlogic's investigative reporting on the troubled-teen industry (http://http://www.momlogic.com/2009/12/saving_troubled_teens_a_greedy_industry.php) helped jumpstart a homicide investigation involving one of the nation's largest treatment providers for kids in crisis. The Lake County Sheriff's department has recommended that the District Attorney file manslaughter charges against an Oregon wilderness camp and its parent company, Aspen Education Group.
The pending charges stem from the death of 16-year-old Sergey Blashchishen (http://http://www.momlogic.com/2009/09/wilderness_camp_death_another_teen_dies.php), who collapsed and died during his first day at SageWalk Wilderness Camp. Investigators say that the circumstances surrounding Sergey's death are strikingly similar to what happened to Matthew Meyer (http://http://www.momlogic.com/2009/06/can_wilderness_camps_kill_your.php), who died at an Aspen Education-owned camp in Texas. momlogic covered Matthew's story last year, revealing how inadequately trained and ill-equipped counselors failed to recognize the teen's dire condition until it was too late.
(http://http://www.momlogic.com/images/troubled-teens-death-270.jpg)
The lead investigator -- who combed through evidence surrounding Sergey's death -- believes that momlogic's story helped connect the dots. "Matthew's case plays a very significant role in this investigation," says Sheriff's Deputy Chuck Pore. "The article initiated a process of researching what happened to Sergey."
The Sheriff's Department's investigation has revealed that while hiking in extreme heat, both Matthew and Sergey complained of exhaustion and feeling dizzy. Despite evidence of overheating, the boys' conditions were dismissed and brushed off by staff members. When each child passed out from heat exhaustion, the staff was slow to contact emergency medical personnel. Both teens died of a severe form of heatstroke known as "hyperthermia."
During the summer of 2009, Sergey had lost his way after dropping out of high school, experimenting with drugs and having a few run-ins with police. The son of Russian immigrants realized that he wanted more out of life, and hoped that a behavioral treatment program would prepare him for the military. The teen's mother, Lyudmila Blashchishena, found positive feedback online about SageWalk Wilderness Camp. The program had gained notoriety by being featured in the ABC reality show, "Brat Camp."
On August 27, Sergey left his Portland, Ore., home with two escorts, who transported him to the SageWalk compound. Sergey never got the chance to say goodbye to his family. According to investigators, what happened over the next 24 hours was a series of critical mistakes by staff members -- which led to Sergey's senseless death.
At 10:30 AM, in 80-degree temperatures, a group of staff and students began hiking in a wilderness area managed by the Bureau of Land Management. As the newest student in the group, Sergey took the lead and was required to carry an 80-pound backpack that included water for the entire group. An hour into the hike, Sergey began acting strangely. At first he began staggering, then he drifted off course and eventually started falling down. It didn't occur to any of the staff members that this could be a telltale sign of a health emergency. Instead, the counselors assumed that Sergey was being disobedient and scolded him for his behavior. By 12:30 PM, Sergey appeared confused, started spitting and eventually reached the point of "shutdown." The staff monitored Sergey's fluctuating vital signs, but failed to call medical staff. Sergey vomited twice -- once with signs of blood. One staff member told investigators that he "wasn't overly concerned, because students in the program were always vomiting, though [he] didn't know why."
Eventually, the school nurse got involved and told the counselors to "keep doing what they [were] doing." Suddenly, Sergey began thrashing his arms around in the air and yelling. Sergey's breathing became shallow, rapidly dropping off. Then he no longer had a pulse. The staffers began CPR and called the nurse, who told a field manager to call 911. It took nearly an hour for medics to arrive. Twenty-five minutes later, Sergey was pronounced dead.
Deputy Pore contends that SageWalk and the Aspen Education Group approved or knowingly tolerated practices at the camp that allowed employees to ignore the physical complaints of students, and that resulted in the death of Sergey Blashchishen.
The Aspen Education Group denies any wrongdoing, and stands behind its staffing procedures. Mark Dorenfeld, Senior Vice President of the Western Division of Aspen Education Group, issued the following statement to momlogic:
"SageWalk Wilderness School strongly disagrees with the conclusions of the Sheriff's Office, particularly in the absence of a full report by the State Medical Examiner. We continue to be greatly saddened by this tragic accident and again wish to extend our deepest sympathies to the family and friends of this young man. We continue to await the results of the State Medical Examiner's report. We expect that, once all the facts are known, they will demonstrate that we acted carefully and responsibly, and we will be fully vindicated."
News of the potential criminal charges is bittersweet for Matthew's mother, Crystal Manganaro, who received an out-of-court settlement in her civil lawsuit against Aspen Education. "The ripple-effect is working," says Manganaro. "There's going to be a big tidal wave on them. They have to be accountable for their actions."
Deputy Pore says that this case is the first of its kind in his 20-year law-enforcement career. "Making criminal charges against a corporation is new ground for me," he says. But he admits that it's unlikely that any individual employee will go to prison. A decision by the D.A.'s office is not expected for some time. "Although the entire issue is so sad for so many," says Deputy Pore, "I am hoping there will be some good to come from all of this."
Gina Kaysen Fernandes is an award-winning documentary producer and a former TV news producer/writer. She lives in Los Angeles with her husband and son.
© 2010 GNH Productions, Inc.
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Was Northstar Expeditions an Aspen program? I think that was where Aaron Bacon died, similarly.
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Was Northstar Expeditions an Aspen program? I think that was where Aaron Bacon died, similarly.
Aspen does have a program called Northstar Center (http://http://www.northstarcenter.com/) (Bend, Oregon) but it's a young adult transition program.
North Star Expeditions, where Aaron Bacon died, was based out of Escalante, Utah, and was owned and operated by William and Pattie Henry. Their son Eric also worked there. According to an old article (http://http://www.teenadvocatesusa.org/DeadlyDiscipline.html) from The Oregonian:
William and Pattie Henry have a history of involvement with troubled programs, said Lee, the Utah prosecutor. In 1990, the two were employed at the Challenger Foundation, where a 16-year-old girl died of hyperthermia and dehydration.
After Challenger folded following the unsuccessful prosecution of its owner, Steve Cartisano, William and Pattie Henry co-founded North Star Expeditions, also of southern Utah.
Like Challenger, North Star adopted William Henry's tough approach to dealing with its students, Lee said.
"I think that Bill Henry . . . built an atmosphere where the kids were worthless and not to be trusted," he said.
And that, said Lee, was conducive to abuse.[/list]
Ironically, or perhaps not so ironically, there is a connection between North Star Expeditions and SageWalk although it isn't through ownership. It's by way of personnel.
Eric Henry, despite being charged with child abuse and neglect in connection with Bacon's 1994 death at NSE, and having "signed a Dec. 11, 1996, diversion agreement ... in which prosecution was deferred if he refrained from involvement in similar programs for pay and obeyed all laws for nine months," was -- just six months later -- working at SageWalk (where Sergey Blashchishen just died).
Although he was subsequently fired from SageWalk, both he and his mother were soon working at yet another nearby wilderness program, Obsidian Trails.
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Was Northstar Expeditions an Aspen program? I think that was where Aaron Bacon died, similarly.
Aspen does have a program called Northstar Center (http://http://www.northstarcenter.com/) (Bend, Oregon) but it's a young adult transition program.
North Star Expeditions, where Aaron Bacon died, was based out of Escalante, Utah, and was owned and operated by William and Pattie Henry. Their son Eric also worked there. According to an old article (http://http://www.teenadvocatesusa.org/DeadlyDiscipline.html) from The Oregonian:
William and Pattie Henry have a history of involvement with troubled programs, said Lee, the Utah prosecutor. In 1990, the two were employed at the Challenger Foundation, where a 16-year-old girl died of hyperthermia and dehydration.
After Challenger folded following the unsuccessful prosecution of its owner, Steve Cartisano, William and Pattie Henry co-founded North Star Expeditions, also of southern Utah.
Like Challenger, North Star adopted William Henry's tough approach to dealing with its students, Lee said.
"I think that Bill Henry . . . built an atmosphere where the kids were worthless and not to be trusted," he said.
And that, said Lee, was conducive to abuse.[/list]
Ironically, or perhaps not so ironically, there is a connection between North Star Expeditions and SageWalk although it isn't through ownership. It's by way of personnel.
Eric Henry, despite being charged with child abuse and neglect in connection with Bacon's 1994 death at NSE, and having "signed a Dec. 11, 1996, diversion agreement ... in which prosecution was deferred if he refrained from involvement in similar programs for pay and obeyed all laws for nine months," was -- just six months later -- working at SageWalk (where Sergey Blashchishen just died).
Although he was subsequently fired from SageWalk, both he and his mother were soon working at yet another nearby wilderness program, Obsidian Trails.
Ursus, you are the man! :-* :notworthy:
And, in yet another incredible "coincidence", Obsidian Trails killed a kid as well. Restrained to death.
http://www.nospank.net/n-g82.htm (http://www.nospank.net/n-g82.htm)
September 20, 2000
Charge in Wilderness School Death
The Associated Press
LAKEVIEW, Ore. (AP) - A counselor at a wilderness school for troubled youth has been charged in the death of a student who apparently stopped breathing when the counselor sat on him to restrain him, authorities said Wednesday.
Charles Matthew Sharp, 22, was arrested Monday and charged with criminally negligent homicide.
``There is a potential for more serious charges and potentially more people may be charged,'' said Lake County District Attorney David Schutt.
William H. ``Eddie'' Lee, 15, died Monday. Autopsy results were not immediately available.
The district attorney gave this account of the evening's events:
Lee had been camping in a remote area for 10 days with a small group from Obsidian Trails Outdoor School. On Monday, Lee became defiant and disruptive, though not violent, and Sharp and a female counselor forced him to the ground.
Lee's face was in the dirt and Sharp was on top of him while the female counselor held his arm. A second female counselor noticed what was happening and ran over to hold a leg.
After struggling for 5 to 15 minutes, Lee went limp and the counselors noticed he wasn't breathing.
One of the women attempted CPR and the other used a cell phone to call 911.
``The account from the girl who started CPR was that she had to get mud out of his nose and mouth,'' Schutt said. ``He was in soft, pumicy dust. He was slobbering, which turned that stuff to mud.''
Gregory Bodenhamer, the school's director, said he was confident Sharp would be vindicated. He said Sharp and all field instructors were trained in first-aid and restraining uncooperative youth.
``What happened does not make sense to me. I don't know how doing what they did would have caused Eddie's death,'' Bodenhamer said. ``We are very upset with what happened. We are very concerned with Eddie's family.''
Meanwhile, the U.S. Bureau of Land Management revoked Obsidian Trails' permit to operate in the district. It was one of four wilderness schools for troubled youth operating there.
The bureau had told Obsidian Trails to improve security after two students ran away from camp last December and held a rancher and his wife at knifepoint before stealing their car.
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Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
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Whooter you have no relevant work experience with children in wilderness camps, were not a survivor, or any other life experience to base your opinions on.
What qualifications does a poster need here on fornits to have an opinion, Joel? You screwed up wilderness 101 by breaking your ankle (not something to brag about). Then you turn around and bad mouth the very people who carried you off the mountain and got you medical help(wtf?). So your opinion on wilderness isn’t relevant and you proved yourself to be an ingrate. Then you tried your hand at working for a program (trying to emulate the same people that saved your butt) but you couldn’t handle that job. If you hated them so much why did you want to join them? So you don’t have any relevant experience as a staff person either because you failed there. You have no experience as a program parent. So I am not sure what you can contribute here.
You are talking partly about "what staff need to do" yet you cannot provide effective strategies per when a child is "faking it." If you can provide solutions without posting a link or any other resources, or any other internet resources, I'm all ears.
So you like posts with no links to back up a person’s word? Hmm….. interesting. Looks like you will have to keep your ears closed then.
This is another example when staff focus on what they "perceive as a misbehavior" rather than the root cause of the said problem. In this case, a life was lost. Whooter you spoke earlier about children faking it, how would you handle the situation before the child died? Think long and hard about giving me a vague answer.
This seems to be the struggle from what I have read. How does s person distinguish between a behavior problem and a life threatening issue. Apparently there were 2 EMT’s that were with Sergey. So there were trained people on site. If behavior and medical issues could easily be separated then these childrens lives would have been spared. I think we can all agree that they didn’t want Sergey to die (although I guess I should speak for everyone here). So the solution must be in better training or a change in existing procedure.
This investigation seems to be more detailed then the previous ones so hopefully they will be able to come up with some solutions.
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Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
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Here, I did answer your post. maybe you missed it:
Whooter you have no relevant work experience with children in wilderness camps, were not a survivor, or any other life experience to base your opinions on. You are talking partly about "what staff need to do" yet you cannot provide effective strategies per when a child is "faking it." If you can provide solutions without posting a link or any other internet resources, I'm all ears.[/color][/i]
What qualifications does a poster need here on fornits to have an opinion, Joel? You screwed up wilderness 101 by breaking your ankle (not something to brag about). Then you turn around and bad mouth the very people who carried you off the mountain and got you medical help(wtf?). So your opinion on wilderness isn’t relevant and you proved yourself to be an ingrate. Then you tried your hand at working for a program (trying to emulate the same people that saved your butt) but you couldn’t handle that job. If you hated them so much why did you want to join them? So you don’t have any relevant experience as a staff person either because you failed there. You have no experience as a program parent. So I am not sure what you can contribute here.
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So you like posts with no links to back up a person’s word? Hmm….. interesting. Looks like you will have to keep your ears closed then.
You were called on your lack of knowledge of the TTI and failed to produce. This is something fornits members have known for years. You talk like an ed con, former staffer, current staffer, someone associated with not for profit organizations helping teens does or someone associated with for profit organizations helping teens does. Quit blowing smoke up everyone's ass or leave this website. I, including many others, don't tolerate industry trolls who defend abusive programs. Whooter there is also a part of me that thinks you feel guilty for placing your child in a program, your son (which I'm inclined to think this is the case)/daughter that made a mistake which could not be taken back, therefor you feel the need to defend programs instead of dealing with your guilt. [/i]
You may be right, who knows.
And you hate programs because you had to be taken off the mountain and were humiliated because you screwed up. Then you tried to prove yourself a man by going back to wilderness as a staff person but couldnt hack that either and they canned your ass. So you failed on both counts and now feel compelled to blame them for your life and your failures.
See, anyone can speculate, Joel.
So have you defined who is allowed to post here and what qualifications people need? Get back to us when you have that defined.
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Then you tried your hand at working for a program (trying to emulate the same people that saved your butt) but you couldn’t handle that job.
I left EYA after 3 years of service where most wilderness counselors left within a year. It was time to move on and I don't look at is " not being able to handle the job. " Many wilderness counselors at EYA move on after their two year mark to do something else. Nice try on the ankle diversion tactic Whooter! These sneaky tactics don't fly with me and I'll continue to call you on them. [/i][/color]
3 years doesnt make a career, so as a career move it was a failure. Most people would see it that way, Joel. Now why dont you be honest with everyone. Tell us the story again of when you asked to be upgraded and wanted a pay raise and they brought out the various complaints against you by the children in your care of alleged abuse, inappropriate contacts and that coupled with your over all ineffectiveness. You had no choice but to quit or speak to the authorities. We both know they were being kind and you got off easy.
So you see your past is just as transparent as mine is, Joel.
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So have you defined who is allowed to post here and what qualifications people need? Get back to us when you have that defined.
Whooter this is not about qualifications rather you being confronted to add substance to your vague responses, which is commonplace for you on fornits. [/i][/color]
Look, Joel, be nice. Everyone gets to post here, even you. So dont point fingers at others. You really dont know what you are talking about. If you cant post nice I will start only responding to your every tenth post like I do with Dysfunction Junction.
Try to have a civil conversation...... your choice.
The topic is Sagewalk
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3 years doesnt make a career, so as a career move it was a failure. Most people would see it that way, Joel. Now why dont you be honest with everyone. Tell us the story again of when you asked to be upgraded and wanted a pay raise and they brought out the various complaints against you by the children in your care of alleged abuse, inappropriate contacts and that coupled with your over all ineffectiveness. You had no choice but to quit or speak to the authorities. We both know they were being kind and you got off easy.
So you see your past is just as transparent as mine is, Joel.
I never asked to upgraded and wanted a pay raise. Again, another diversion tactic I'll call you out on. If you want to create spin stories I won't stop you. People will see through them. There weren't any cases of alleged abuse against me either. I would more than happy to produce my employment records to you. Again, another diversion tactic. There were no complaints of "inappropriate contact" and I would be more than happy to produce my employment records. Again, another spin/diversion tactic I will call you out on. I managed to turn around one of the roughest groups at EHT in a short period of time Whooter. The rest of your response is typical diversion/spin tactics Whooter. Whooter it's time to stop digging yourself a deeper hole.[/i]
So now that you are here on fornits you decided to change your story. I cant help you clean yourself up here, Joel. If you want to retell it differently and provide references knock yourself out. But you will still have to explain your initial post to others here when you admitted to the above. It doesnt matter to me either way, just dont try to judge others when you are knee deep in abuse allegations.
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So now that you are here on fornits you decided to change your story. I cant help you clean yourself up here, Joel. If you want to retell it differently and provide references knock yourself out. But you will still have to explain your initial post to others here when you admitted to the above. It doesnt matter to me either way, just dont try to judge others when you are knee deep in abuse allegations.
I replied to your allegations you made reference to in your last EYA post, if ya want to get technical. I've been through with this with Mark Babitz, Angela Smith from Heal and now you Whooter. How long do ya want to keep this party going?[/i][/color]
Very good, then you understand. If you want to be treated kindly then treat others the same way.
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Very good, then you understand. If you want to be treated kindly then treat others the same way.
I don't think you're being mean at all Whooter. I'm just another survivor who won't back down from you defending abusive programs, using spin tacts and shifting the focus away from programs that abuse kids. [/i]
Can you point to the post(s) where I was defending a program? I think what you perceive as defending is asking questions that you dont like. I dont think shutting down a program is going to help other children. they will go someplace else. So why not try to understand what happened to Sergey? Why do people like yourself close your minds and refuse to discuss the details and possibilities? It amazes me how small your world is and how little outside information you allow to get in. Once you make up your mind you dont like other people disturbing your reality.
discussion will not hurt anyone, Joel.
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Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
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At 10:30 AM, in 80-degree temperatures, a group of staff and students began hiking in a wilderness area managed by the Bureau of Land Management. As the newest student in the group, Sergey took the lead and was required to carry an 80-pound backpack that included water for the entire group. An hour into the hike, Sergey began acting strangely. At first he began staggering, then he drifted off course and eventually started falling down. It didn't occur to any of the staff members that this could be a telltale sign of a health emergency. Instead, the counselors assumed that Sergey was being disobedient and scolded him for his behavior. By 12:30 PM, Sergey appeared confused, started spitting and eventually reached the point of "shutdown." The staff monitored Sergey's fluctuating vital signs, but failed to call medical staff. Sergey vomited twice -- once with signs of blood. One staff member told investigators that he "wasn't overly concerned, because students in the program were always vomiting, though [he] didn't know why."
Eventually, the school nurse got involved and told the counselors to "keep doing what they [were] doing." Suddenly, Sergey began thrashing his arms around in the air and yelling. Sergey's breathing became shallow, rapidly dropping off. Then he no longer had a pulse. The staffers began CPR and called the nurse, who told a field manager to call 911. It took nearly an hour for medics to arrive. Twenty-five minutes later, Sergey was pronounced dead.
Deputy Pore contends that SageWalk and the Aspen Education Group approved or knowingly tolerated practices at the camp that allowed employees to ignore the physical complaints of students, and that resulted in the death of Sergey Blashchishen.
Sergey it is. What do ya see wrong with this picture Whooter?[/i]
Personally I see a single person expressing his opinion and a whole group of followers here on fornits treating it as gospel and dropping before his feet.
From an intelligent standpoint we all know that there are many people involved in this investigation and Deputy Pore (or any one person) isn’t judge and jury.
But, aside from opinions, I am curious about how to handle a bunch of kids who are out on a hike and they are all complaining about being hot and tired. How does one differentiate between the ones who are truly dehydrated, in need of medical attention and those who are slackers and are exhibiting behavior issues? There were 2 EMT’s on the hike with these kids. How could these symptoms get past them?
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But, aside from opinions, I am curious about how to handle a bunch of kids who are out on a hike and they are all complaining about being hot and tired. How does one differentiate between the ones who are truly dehydrated, in need of medical attention and those who are slackers and are exhibiting behavior issues? There were 2 EMT’s on the hike with these kids. How could these symptoms get past them?
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Where does it say they were both EMT Certified?
Even with that you have to remember the conflicting priorities of their EMT training versus program training. Anyone with a pinch of sense wouldn't have had the kids out hauling 40 to 50 pounds in the hottest part of the day. The fact that they where is a screw up of the program.
As the program is the entity ultimately responsible for what goes on in every single moment of every single day for every single child, man, and woman on those treks.
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Where does it say they were both EMT Certified?
At the bottom of this article (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=360703#p360703)
Even with that you have to remember the conflicting priorities of their EMT training versus program training. Anyone with a pinch of sense wouldn't have had the kids out hauling 40 to 50 pounds in the hottest part of the day. The fact that they where is a screw up of the program.
As the program is the entity ultimately responsible for what goes on in every single moment of every single day for every single child, man, and woman on those treks.
I think we all can agree that since the kids are under the programs care that they are ultimately responsible for what happens to them. The part that isn’t clear, so far from the investigation, is why the EMT’s missed all the signs.
At this point I am assuming that Sergey died of Dehydration and that there were no underlying conditions which contributed to his death.
If this had been a group of willing hikers I feel a person exhibiting signs like Sergey had exhibited would have been treated differently and the boys life would have been saved. It is possible that with a group of unwilling hikers that it makes it difficult to distinguish between behavior issues and a real medical problem. (one of the investigators I believe said this also).
Another reason could be that the 2 EMT’s just wanted Sergey to die and withheld treatment which I think is highly unlikely or maybe the EMTs were so intimidated by the home base staff that they were afraid to call for outside help. Maybe they were not trained properly.
But I think it goes back to differentiating between a behavior problem and a medical problem.
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How does one differentiate between the ones who are truly dehydrated, in need of medical attention and those who are slackers and are exhibiting behavior issues? There were 2 EMT's on the hike with these kids. How could these symptoms get past them?
Where does it say they were both EMT Certified?
At the bottom of this article (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=360703#p360703)
Wow. It doesn't say that at all, Whooter! Here's the quote from which you extrapolated your fairy tale:
...he was accompanied on the hike by two Emergency Medical Technician (EMT) trained staff, one of whom never left his side.[/list]
In other words, they were SageWalk field personnel, who had received some EMT training.
Not necessarily EMT-certified, not necessarily even full-blown EMTs (although I notice you keep referring to them as such, lol).
Just some "training." That "training" could have even been a one hour course in how to keep kids hydrated, for all we know.
In fact, I do believe you and I have gone down exactly this same road (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=28470&p=343034#p343038) before on this very issue; I'm surprised you didn't remember.
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Ursus, I dont believe I used the word “Certified” I was quoting and article that you posted several times:
“...he was accompanied on the hike by two Emergency Medical Technician (EMT) trained staff, one of whom never left his side.”
The article doesn’t say just any training. It states EMT Training. Che asked where is says they were both EMT "Certified". I agree I should have caught that he added the word “Certified” to it when I supplied the link. But they were not my words.
The training could have been a one hour course or a 6 month course off site. They didn’t specify or I didnt see where the training was spelled out.
This leads back to my initial question ....Which is how did these two (EMT) Trained people miss this? Was it due to improper training? Did they want Sergey to die? Is it more difficult to differentiate between behavior issues and a real medical emergency when dealing with kids who don’t want to be there? Where the EMTs intimidated by their superiors and hesitated to call for outside help when they should have?
I think once these questions are answered we will be closer to identifying root cause.
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Ursus, I dont believe I used the word "Certified" I was quoting and article that you posted several times:
"...he was accompanied on the hike by two Emergency Medical Technician (EMT) trained staff, one of whom never left his side."
I didn't post that article several times. I posted it once. It just came out.
However, what has been posted several times and to which you responded the last time as well ... is language supplied by Aspen Ed in the form of official statements.
Each of Aspen Ed's statements regarding this matter has referred to "EMT-trained" personnel, and each time you have seen fit to highlight this particular facet of their statement in some fashion or another.
The article doesn't say just any training. It states EMT Training. Che asked where is says they were both EMT "Certified". I agree I should have caught that he added the word "Certified" to it when I supplied the link. But they were not my words.
But perhaps you were hoping the implication that they were certified, and that Aspen Ed routinely sends out certified EMTs or WFRs on their wilderness trips ... would have been impressed upon the naive reader and potential paying customer, eh?
I suppose this time around you wish to skew blame towards the individual staff involved, as if it was their fault, and their fault alone, and away from the fact that the same "therapeutic milieu" responsible for molding kids' minds is also responsible for skewing the innate instincts and common sense of the staff, not to mention interfere or run counter to the appropriate training they may or may not have received.
Gotta wonder what the word is from CRC Health: strategy, strategy, strategy... Spin! Spin! Spin!
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I didn't post that article several times. I posted it once. It just came out.
I stated (or meant to state) that I had quoted the article several times, not that you posted it several times.
However, what has been posted several times and to which you responded the last time as well ... is language supplied by Aspen Ed in the form of official statements.
Each of Aspen Ed's statements regarding this matter has referred to "EMT-trained" personnel, and each time you have seen fit to highlight this particular facet of their statement in some fashion or another.
I believe I stated EMT’s. The training they got was not specific. They might have received a 1 hour course or a 6 month off site training course.
I suppose this time around you wish to skew blame towards the individual staff involved, as if it was their fault, and their fault alone, and away from the fact that the same "therapeutic milieu" responsible for bending kids' minds is also responsible for skewing the innate instincts and common sense of the staff, not to mention the probable lack of appropriate training they received.
I think I have been clear that the root cause is still open in my mind. I am one of the few that has withheld blame. I indicated in my past posts that several options are open in my mind. The EMTs may not have received proper training…. Maybe they wanted Sergey to die…. Maybe they were intimidated by their immediate superiors and hesitated to call 911. Maybe there was something else wrong with Sergey.
Others here might have made up their minds and assigned blame but I am still waiting for more information which may come after the final report is submitted by the investigative team.
Whooter wrote:The article doesn’t say just any training. It states EMT Training. Che asked where is says they were both EMT "Certified". I agree I should have caught that he added the word "Certified" to it when I supplied the link. But they were not my words.
But perhaps you were hoping the implication that they were certified ... would have been impressed upon the naive reader, eh?
I never wrote the word “Certified” nor did I ever imply it. You will need to ask Che what his motive was for writing that or where he referenced it from. But it didnt come from any of my postings.
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But, aside from opinions, I am curious about how to handle a bunch of kids who are out on a hike and they are all complaining about being hot and tired. How does one differentiate between the ones who are truly dehydrated, in need of medical attention and those who are slackers and are exhibiting behavior issues?
There were 2 EMT’s on the hike with these kids. How could these symptoms get past them?
Neglect Whooter! [/i]
Deputy Pore contends that SageWalk and the Aspen Education Group approved or knowingly tolerated practices at the camp that allowed employees to ignore the physical complaints of students, and that resulted in the death of Sergey Blashchishen.
Yes, and if it turns out that the deputy is correct that they just ignore physical complaints of students then the next question is why?
Why would the staff just ignore the complaints? Is it lack of training? Did they want the kid to die? Did they feel the kids are faking?
If kids die under the programs care they are responsible and having kids die just isn't good for business. So it is safe to assume that from a humanitarian or a business stand point no one wanted Sergey to die.
So the question still remains as to the root cause of Sergeys death.
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Skipping ahead cause I haven't got time to read it all.....
Oscar, I disagree with you that the US needs yet another Federal agency for any reason. We're damned near tapped out by the tax man already and so constricted in our activities it's hard to even make a living let alone do anything really worthwhile.
We already have adequate laws to protect children and adults from this kind of abuse. We just have a blind spot with regard to enforcement. The troubled parent industry has enjoyed the same kind of baseless trust as the Catholic Church and the Boy Scouts. That's the problem.
And here we're only talking about those incidents that actually result in the death of a child. What about all the people who survive but are traumatized to the point of serious psyche damage? Can you imagine what the other kids on that hike will have to deal with having the memory of chowing down on some lentils n rice in the shade while watching this other kid die? That's a serious mind fuck right there. In fact, this fucked up cottage industry has given rise to another cottage industry to deal with the fall-out. See the wiki definition for Exit Counseling (http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exit_counseling).
I'm very happy to see that the Sheriff's Dept is recommending homicide charges and hopeful that the DA will follow that recommendation. When institutions are as wary of legal prosecution for abuse as as individuals I shall futterwhacken vigorously!
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We already have adequate laws to protect children and adults from this kind of abuse.
THANK YOU!
Not only that, due to the fact that there are many unscrupulous individuals out there who have the gall to split hairs over what's really abusive and what is not, the malplractice laws can absolutely pick up the slack. Those things together are more than sufficient, and it's already proven its efficacy in court.
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Re-post of one of the original articles from last October, shortly after the incident:
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Investigator calls wilderness school reckless in teen's death (http://http://www.bendbulletin.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20091020/NEWS0107/910200398)
A 16-year-old collapsed and died on an August hike in Lake County; a sheriff's deputy says interviews indicate the school may have skirted disaster before
By Erin Golden / The Bulletin
Published: October 20. 2009 4:00AM PST
The investigation into the death of a 16-year-old Portland boy who collapsed on a hike with a Redmond-based wilderness school this summer is focusing on reports that the boy may not have had proper nutrition and medical care before and during his hike through a remote area of northern Lake County.
In an affidavit requesting a search warrant to seek documents and other evidence from SageWalk Wilderness School's Southwest Obsidian Avenue office last month, Lake County Sheriff's Deputy Chuck Poré wrote that he believes Sergey Blashchishen's death was a homicide and the result of criminal mistreatment and reckless endangerment by the school.
No charges have been filed against SageWalk or any individuals, and the investigation is expected to continue for another few months.
But Poré said Monday that the information he gathered to make his case for a search warrant — including interviews with school staff members who said Blashchishen started showing signs of distress hours before anyone called 911 — are still pointing him in the direction of a crime.
"I have not changed my course from what I saw when I made the application for the search warrant," Poré said.
Blashchishen died on Aug. 28. About two weeks later, SageWalk Executive Director Mike Bednarz said the Oregon Department of Human Services had ordered the school to send all of its students home.
On Sept. 14, the Lake County Sheriff's Office executed the search warrant, taking more than 400 files and Blashchishen's camping equipment.
On Monday, Bednarz said no students are currently at the school, but declined to comment further, citing the ongoing law enforcement and state Department of Human Services investigations.
Surprise pickup
SageWalk is one of a handful of wilderness schools in Central Oregon for teens dealing with emotional and behavioral issues or other problems, including substance abuse.
According to the affidavit, the boy's mother, Lyudmila Blashchishen, wrote on a school form that her son was aggressive, sometimes rude and uninterested in studying or thinking about his future. On Aug. 26, Blashchishen's parents enrolled him in SageWalk without his knowledge.
On Aug. 27, between 5:30 a.m. and 6:30 a.m., two "transporters" contracted by SageWalk woke Blashchishen at his home in Portland to take him to SageWalk, according to the affidavit. Blashchishen's parents, who had been told to be away when their son was picked up, watched from a neighbor's house.
Poré wrote in the affidavit that surprise early-morning pickups are a frequent occurrence for new SageWalk students.
Blashchishen arrived in Redmond around 9 a.m. and was later transported to a medical facility for blood tests and a drug screening, according to the affidavit. He tested positive for THC, a substance found in marijuana, but a staff member present for the testing said no additional questions were asked about Blashchishen's drug use or his two-year cigarette smoking habit, which his mother had listed on a school medical history form.
Around 1 p.m., Blashchishen was blindfolded and put in a vehicle headed to the school's base camp in Lake County. Around the area of Hampton Station, Blashchishen said he wanted the blindfold removed, and staff members agreed to take the blindfold off and let the boy lie in the back seat if he'd look only at the vehicle's ceiling.
Blashchishen was never told where he was going or what would happen to him, according to the affidavit.
Once he arrived at camp, Blashchishen met other students. The conversation turned to drug use, and Blashchishen talked about purchasing the drug OxyContin.
Calorie count
The students later had a meal of rice and lentils. Though some students were allowed to ask for up to five cups of food, Blashchishen, as a newcomer, was offered just two, according to the affidavit.
DHS regulations for wilderness schools require all students to be offered no less than 3,000 calories of food per day.
Poré wrote that SageWalk staff members could not provide information about what else, if anything, Blashchishen ate before the meal of lentils and rice. He wrote that the boy could have had as few as 400 calories during the day.
That day, Blashchishen wrote a poem, in which he described the camp scene — "squirrels/running around/blue skies/green bushes and trees/but I'm still hungry."
Staff members Poré interviewed later said they did not recall Blashchishen saying he was hungry.
The next morning, at 11:45, Blashchishen, the other students, and three staff members had breakfast and set off for a hike south of Hampton.
Blashchishen carried his camping gear, food, water and clothing in a pack that weighed between 40 and 50 pounds, according to the affidavit. He set out at a "good pace" in the front of the rest of the group, though he didn't know how far he'd be hiking that day. The terrain was dusty, with tall brush and little shade.
About an hour later, one of the staff members noticed Blashchishen walking strangely. The group took a break and Blashchishen drank water and consumed electrolytes.
When the hike continued, another staff member noticed that Blashchishen had started carrying his backpack in a different way, and he was "not resting efficiently," but did not ask the boy if he was having problems, according to the affidavit.
Staff members told Poré that they did not push Blashchishen to continue on, but added that other students encouraged him to continue.
As the hike went on, the staff members said Blashchishen fell several times, but pulled himself up and kept walking. Just after 2 p.m., staff members called the school's field supervisor to report that Blashchishen had vomited, but the hike continued.
Less than a half-hour later, about one mile from where the hike had begun, Blashchishen collapsed and lay on his back in the sun. The other students moved to the shade and began preparing lunch.
Blashchishen declined the offer of food and shortly after began flailing his arms and yelling in a foreign language, according to the affidavit. Staff members said the boy began to hyperventilate before his breathing slowed and then stopped altogether.
Call for help
One staff member told Poré that by the time Blashchishen stopped breathing, he'd been thinking about calling for help, but had not. At 2:36 p.m., staff members called a school nurse, who then told another staff member to call 911.
In the affidavit, Poré wrote that the call came much too late.
"This was not a call in progress explaining that Sergey was doing weird things and then during the conversation he collapsed," Poré wrote. “This call began with the announcement of the cessation of life and the beginning of CPR. This is a call that should have gone first and directly to 911."
Two staff members trained as emergency medical technicians performed CPR for about 45 minutes before an AirLink helicopter arrived from Bend. But by the time the helicopter arrived, Blashchishen was already dead. Deputies from the Deschutes and Lake County Sheriff's offices were called to the scene.
Poré arrived around 7 p.m., nearly five hours after staff members had begun CPR and more than three hours after they'd stopped lifesaving efforts. He rolled Blashchishen onto his side to examine him, and was surprised to find the boy's body still warm.
"Never before have I encountered a body that was warmer than my own touch, and it was especially remarkable as it was overcast and had been hours since death. ... Although I was gloved I was wearing short sleeves and could feel the heat radiation against my own skin," Poré wrote. "My senses likened the feeling to touching someone who had just gotten out of a hot shower."
The investigation continues
The State Medical Examiner's Office has not yet released the results of an autopsy, and in a preliminary death certificate signed on Aug. 30 by Dr. James Olson, the deputy state medical examiner for Southern Oregon, Blashchishen's cause of death was listed as "pending."
But on the certificate, Olson listed hyperthermia — the condition that occurs when a person's body temperature rises to abnormally high levels — as a possible contributing factor.
In his affidavit, Poré alleges that SageWalk was negligent on several counts. He wrote that school staff members should have asked more questions about Blashchishen's tobacco and drug use before sending him off on a hike. In addition, he said the school failed to consider the stress that could have been created by the previous day's early-morning pickup and blindfolded transport to the campsite.
Finally, Poré wrote that the staff members should have responded more quickly to Blashchishen's signs of distress on the hike.
Gordon Gannicott, a Portland attorney representing Blashchishen's family, said his clients agree with Poré's conclusions.
"I think the family is upset about what happened to Sergey, and they have concerns about these type of programs. ... There's a real possibility for danger with these camps. It appears that the behavioral focus is placed maybe above the medical focus in the food chain, and you end up with situations where the counselors, the people involved with the camps, are ignoring straightforward medical symptoms and signs in an attempt to shape behavior, and they should be responding more properly to medical issues."
The state began licensing outdoor schools after the death in 2000 of a 15-year-old student, who was being held facedown on the ground by a counselor while on a hiking trip in Lake County. The student was attending Obsidian Trails, a Bend-based wilderness school that closed several years after the incident. A civil suit filed against the school by the boy's mother was settled for an undisclosed amount.
No criminal charges were filed in connection with the 2000 incident.
DHS spokesman Gene Evans said his department's investigation into Blashchishen's death is ongoing, but declined to comment further.
Poré said he still needs to conduct more interviews and sort through the hundreds of pages of documents seized from the SageWalk office before he can decide if he will recommend that the Lake County District Attorney's office pursue criminal charges.
But in the affidavit, Poré wrote that his interviews with staff members had led him to believe that problems had occurred at the school.
"The pattern suggests that SageWalk, as a day care facility having a seemingly special right to press children to their maximum and beyond, is without the capability to separate symptoms of misbehavior from symptoms of approaching death," Poré wrote. "(My) interviews strongly suggest that, at least for the last nine months, SageWalk may have taken children to the precipice of disaster and been lucky. On Friday, August 28th, 2009, this luck ran out."
Erin Golden can be reached at 541-617-7837 or at egolden@bendbulletin.com.
Published Daily in Bend Oregon by Western Communications, Inc. © 2010
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Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
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1. Staff focus on what they perceive as "to behave badly" rather than the root cause of a problem
Not sure what you mean here.
2. Training issues
Agreed. Although they indicated that there were 2 Trained EMT’s on the hike with Sergey. The extent of their training isn’t clear.
3. Inexperienced trip leaders
Another possibility
4. Qualification issues
Also possible
Combination of 1- 4 (or all) Whooter
Also, there could be pressure from home base to clear any call to 911 or outside the program which would have delayed or hampered rescue efforts.
...
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Investigating Deputy wrote:
"The pattern suggests that SageWalk, as a day care facility having a seemingly special right to press children to their maximum and beyond, is without the capability to separate symptoms of misbehavior from symptoms of approaching death,….
[/i]
I found this comment interesting. He seems to be indicating that there is a difficulty separating out behavior issues from approaching death. I am wondering if this played a big part in Sergeys death. If it did then I wonder how does one attain this training to differentiate or neutralize the behavior aspect when determining if a child is sick or not?
…
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Investigating Deputy wrote:
"The pattern suggests that SageWalk, as a day care facility having a seemingly special right to press children to their maximum and beyond, is without the capability to separate symptoms of misbehavior from symptoms of approaching death,….
[/i]
I found this comment interesting. He seems to be indicating that there is a difficulty separating out behavior issues from approaching death. I am wondering if this played a big part in Sergeys death. If it did then I wonder how does one attain this training to differentiate or neutralize the behavior aspect when determining if a child is sick or not?
:shamrock: :shamrock:
Well there definitely not going to accomplish this, when they take a young man that the day before still had THC in his system, along with nicotine. On top of that I'm sure he was not nutritional balanced or emotionally or mentally alert.
Damn I went into the Marines Bootcamp in San Diego, Ca. and they did not take us out on a march/run of 1 mile for at least the first week we were there, as explained later they wanted to properly have are bodies nutritional.
Danny
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Investigating Deputy wrote:
"The pattern suggests that SageWalk, as a day care facility having a seemingly special right to press children to their maximum and beyond, is without the capability to separate symptoms of misbehavior from symptoms of approaching death,….
[/i]
I found this comment interesting. He seems to be indicating that there is a difficulty separating out behavior issues from approaching death. I am wondering if this played a big part in Sergeys death. If it did then I wonder how does one attain this training to differentiate or neutralize the behavior aspect when determining if a child is sick or not?
:shamrock: :shamrock:
Well there definitely not going to accomplish this, when they take a young man that the day before still had THC in his system, along with nicotine. On top of that I'm sure he was not nutritional balanced or emotionally or mentally alert.
Damn I went into the Marines Bootcamp in San Diego, Ca. and they did not take us out on a march/run of 1 mile for at least the first week we were there, as explained later they wanted to properly have are bodies nutritional.
Danny
Thats actually a good point. I wonder if there is a test or a way to determine if/when the child is fit to go on a hike of this type. The program could feed, detox and stabilize the child for a week and then get clearance from a test (blood test) of some sort which deems the child healthy enough to move into the wilderness program. Just coming off butts and junk food suddenly would be enough to put the body in shock and throw off the electrolytes I would think.
...
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On top of that I'm sure he was not nutritional balanced or emotionally or mentally alert.
How can you be sure? Did you know this kid?
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Investigating Deputy wrote:
"The pattern suggests that SageWalk, as a day care facility having a seemingly special right to press children to their maximum and beyond, is without the capability to separate symptoms of misbehavior from symptoms of approaching death,….
[/i]
I found this comment interesting. He seems to be indicating that there is a difficulty separating out behavior issues from approaching death. I am wondering if this played a big part in Sergeys death. If it did then I wonder how does one attain this training to differentiate or neutralize the behavior aspect when determining if a child is sick or not?
:shamrock: :shamrock:
Well there definitely not going to accomplish this, when they take a young man that the day before still had THC in his system, along with nicotine. On top of that I'm sure he was not nutritional balanced or emotionally or mentally alert.
Damn I went into the Marines Bootcamp in San Diego, Ca. and they did not take us out on a march/run of 1 mile for at least the first week we were there, as explained later they wanted to properly have are bodies nutritional.
Danny
Thats actually a good point. I wonder if there is a test or a way to determine if/when the child is fit to go on a hike of this type. The program could feed, detox and stabilize the child for a week and then get clearance from a test (blood test) of some sort which deems the child healthy enough to move into the wilderness program. Just coming off butts and junk food suddenly would be enough to put the body in shock and throw off the electrolytes I would think.
...
:shamrock: :shamrock:
That's what I'm saying, why would you want to do that. That in and of itself is irresponsible. So Whooter Sagewalk is entirely culpable for this young man dying. This is a tragedy that should have never happened. I don't think it can be seen any other way rationally.
Danny
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On top of that I'm sure he was not nutritional balanced or emotionally or mentally alert.
How can you be sure? Did you know this kid?
:shamrock: :shamrock:
Well the autopsy said he had THC in his system which is a stimulant plus nicotine stimulant, I'm sure Sergy wasn't running track for his high school and he was talking about his oxy -cot use. So right there you have a idea his body wasn't stable nor his mental/emotional state. As far as nutrition, once again I'm sure Sergy wasn't sitting down at the dinner table with the fam eating all his essentials every nite.
Plus the report that Det. Pore wrote sort of supports what I am saying but "I" being a drug addict assumed his body would not be suitable for a 1mile or more hike with a 40 lbs. pack on your back in the sun, 1 day after being kidnapped from lifestyle as the one described above.
Danny
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:shamrock: :shamrock:
That's what I'm saying, why would you want to do that. That in and of itself is irresponsible. So Whooter Sagewalk is entirely culpable for this young man dying. This is a tragedy that should have never happened. I don't think it can be seen any other way rationally.
Danny
I don’t think anyone, even Sagewalk will argue that they are responsible. The parents signed over Custody (so to speak). So anything that happens to the kids is the programs responsibility. What I am interested in is the root cause of the death. What could they have done differently which would have saved Sergey and save other children going forward? Root cause needs to be identified and corrective action put into place so that deaths like Sergeys do not happen again.
I disagree with the mentality that we should outlaw wilderness camps or prohibit hikes through the woods and force everyone to remain in urban areas. There must be a solution which allows these wilderness programs to operate and be successful and at the same time keep the children safe from a fate like Sergeys.
...
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:shamrock: :shamrock:
That's what I'm saying, why would you want to do that. That in and of itself is irresponsible. So Whooter Sagewalk is entirely culpable for this young man dying. This is a tragedy that should have never happened. I don't think it can be seen any other way rationally.
Danny
I don’t think anyone, even Sagewalk will argue that they are responsible. The parents signed over Custody (so to speak). So anything that happens to the kids is the programs responsibility. What I am interested in is the root cause of the death. What could they have done differently which would have saved Sergey and save other children going forward? Root cause needs to be identified and corrective action put into place so that deaths like Sergeys do not happen again.
I disagree with the mentality that we should outlaw wilderness camps or prohibit hikes through the woods and force everyone to remain in urban areas. There must be a solution which allows these wilderness programs to operate and be successful and at the same time keep the children safe from a fate like Sergeys.
...
:shamrock: :shamrock:
Thats actually a good point. I wonder if there is a test or a way to determine if/when the child is fit to go on a hike of this type. The program could feed, detox and stabilize the child for a week and then get clearance from a test (blood test) of some sort which deems the child healthy enough to move into the wilderness program. Just coming off butts and junk food suddenly would be enough to put the body in shock and throw off the electrolytes I would think.
:shamrock: :shamrock:
You actually said it right here then!!!!!!!
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Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
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What could they have done differently which would have saved Sergey and save other children going forward?
1. Breaks
2. Water
3. Clothing inspections
4. Foot checks
5. Reduce backpack weight
6. Sunscreen
7. Adequate food - High calorie diets
8. Remove Sergey from the hike and send him to the hospital [/i]
:shamrock: :shamrock:
How about don't send a drug addict out on a march/hike until he is properly nourished. Then you don't have to send Sergey to a hospital.
Danny
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Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
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What could they have done differently which would have saved Sergey and save other children going forward?
1. Adequate breaks
2. Adequate water
3. Clothing inspections
4. Foot checks
5. Reduce backpack weight
6. Adequate food - High calorie diets
7. Remove Sergey from the hike and send him to the hospital [/i]
Maybe they did all of those things. They had more breaks than usual because they were 2 hours and 45 minutes into a 2 hour hike. I assume they do these hikes all the time and none of the other kids died or were hospitalized. Why this kid? What could they have done differently?
I dont expect any one here to have the answers. Just wondering if this will be addressed after the investigation.
...
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Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
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Maybe they did all of those things.
Apparently they did not remove Sergey from the hike and send him to the hospital. Whooter they fucked up and got caught with their pants down. [/i][/color]
Actually they "did" remove Sergey and send him to a hospital, Joel. The morgue is usually in a hospital but located in the basement. The key was to remove Sergey from the hike prior to him dying. See, Joel to say the program screwed up and got caught with their pants down doesnt help the other kids who are in programs today nor will it help those entering them tomorrow. What the investigators and people like myself need to establish is what happened. What was the root cause of Sergeys death and what changes can they make to assure this doesn't happen again. None of the other kids died or any before them on years of hikes through the mountains or woods. What made this young man and this hike unique enough that caused a death.
There are thousands of kids who go through these wilderness programs every year and it seems every year a child dies during these hikes. How can the deaths be prevented?
This is what needs to be answered. The deaths are still occurring so the changes have not been identified not implemented yet.
...
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What could they have done differently which would have saved Sergey and save other children going forward? Root cause needs to be identified and corrective action put into place so that deaths like Sergeys do not happen again.
Well, for starters, you could quit supporting lunatic notions like "trust the process" and "these kids are all untrustworthy, manipulative liars" and "ya have to break a few eggs to make an omlett".
Look, Sergey died because he was placed in the care of people who sincerely believe that the proper response to a kid showing clear signs of accute dehydration is to assume he's faking for attention and hava a picnic under the nearest shade tree rather than to feel his arm pit to see if he's stopped sweating. And the proper response to that same kid not breathing is to call the program staff, not 911.
The root cause is that the people running these programs are dangerously irrational. The proper response to that is not to appoint another committee of equally dangerously irrational bureaucrats to slap safety warning labels on their foreheads. The proper response is for parents and all other legal guardians (such as officals and private citizens acting in prentis locus) to take note that this shit happens and to do due dilligence prior to signing over effective custody to brainwashed lunatics. It's not that hard. Just go through Sagewalk's staff pages and google some of the names listed there. They have a history. You know it. We know it. Sagewalk knows it. Aspen knows it. STICC knows it (prolly some of them among the partners).
There must be a solution which allows these wilderness programs to operate and be successful and at the same time keep the children safe from a fate like Sergeys.
Yes! Make them entirely voluntary and quit pretending it's medicine on the order of heart surgery or cancer treatment.
Any truley therapeutic relationship must be based on trust. Coercion destroys trust. Pick one and run with it (and scisors, if you like). return undef() if /coercion/sig;
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Deputy Pore contends that SageWalk and the Aspen Education Group approved or knowingly tolerated practices at the camp that *allowed employees to ignore the physical complaints of students, and that resulted in the death of Sergey Blashchishen.
Joel, man, I think it runs deeper than that. You say "practices that allowed employees to ignore the physical complaints of students..." Think about that. Like there are a lot of folks out there who would sit down and have a picnic and watch a kid die for an hour or two if only it weren't for those bothersome authorities who disallow it. I think Ursus is more on point when he describes "the same "therapeutic milieu" responsible for molding kids' minds is also responsible for skewing the innate instincts and common sense of the staff, not to mention interfere or run counter to the appropriate training they may or may not have received."
Know what would help a LOT? If Oprah and Dr. Phool would see the light like Montel did and do a segment or 50 investigating the industry instead of promoting it.
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Look, Sergey died because he was placed in the care of people who sincerely believe that the proper response to a kid showing clear signs of accute dehydration is to assume he's faking for attention and hava a picnic under the nearest shade tree rather than to feel his arm pit to see if he's stopped sweating. And the proper response to that same kid not breathing is to call the program staff, not 911.
I am a firm believer that people wake up in the morning and want to do the best job they can. What ever that is i.e. raising kids, building a bridge or taking kids on a hike. They don’t say “Hey I am going to screw up and kill someone today”. (I am sure there are exceptions). So if this is true then they either lack the tools they need to do their job properly or they were not trained properly.
The root cause is that the people running these programs are dangerously irrational. The proper response to that is not to appoint another committee of equally dangerously irrational bureaucrats to slap safety warning labels on their foreheads. The proper response is for parents and all other legal guardians (such as officals and private citizens acting in prentis locus) to take note that this shit happens and to do due dilligence prior to signing over effective custody to brainwashed lunatics. It's not that hard. Just go through Sagewalk's staff pages and google some of the names listed there. They have a history. You know it. We know it. Sagewalk knows it. Aspen knows it. STICC knows it (prolly some of them among the partners).
Sorry, I just don’t buy into the whole brainwashed theory. I am sure it was all the rage in the 1980’s with EST and all but Sergey didn’t die because of Brainwashing. The EMTs (trained) on the hike were right on this guy and they missed something. Maybe they thought he was faking it…. Why? Maybe they saw it before or called 911 in the past and got their asses reamed because they spent $3,000 on emergency personnel on some kid who was faking, who knows. So this time they waited and called home base first.
I don’t believe these people running the places are irrational. There is a ton of money to be lost when a child dies and the place gets shut down. Even if they hate kids they don’t want this to happen, its their bread and butter. There are many people involved deciding how these places operate, not one crazy at the helm.
Yes! Make them entirely voluntary and quit pretending it's medicine on the order of heart surgery or cancer treatment.
Any truley therapeutic relationship must be based on trust. Coercion destroys trust. Pick one and run with it (and scisors, if you like). return undef() if /coercion/sig;
I don’t believe many teens would go if it were voluntary. Try to get your average teen to clean their room let alone approach you for therapy.
I have seen first hand that these kids meet up with therapists that they trust. It just takes time.. thats why they wrote “Least restrictive....”… not “Non restrictive”. Some of our best swimmers were dropped in the water against their will.
I have seen the results of these wilderness programs and they are very effective.
...
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Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
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Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
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Re: Sheriff recommends death be identified a homicide - Sagewalk
New postby Antigen » Yesterday, 22:43
Whooter wrote:What could they have done differently which would have saved Sergey and save other children going forward? Root cause needs to be identified and corrective action put into place so that deaths like Sergeys do not happen again.
Antigen wrote:
Well, for starters, you could quit supporting lunatic notions like "trust the process" and "these kids are all untrustworthy, manipulative liars" and "ya have to break a few eggs to make an omlett".
Look, Sergey died because he was placed in the care of people who sincerely believe that the proper response to a kid showing clear signs of accute dehydration is to assume he's faking for attention and hava a picnic under the nearest shade tree rather than to feel his arm pit to see if he's stopped sweating. And the proper response to that same kid not breathing is to call the program staff, not 911.
The root cause is that the people running these programs are dangerously irrational. The proper response to that is not to appoint another committee of equally dangerously irrational bureaucrats to slap safety warning labels on their foreheads. The proper response is for parents and all other legal guardians (such as officals and private citizens acting in prentis locus) to take note that this shit happens and to do due dilligence prior to signing over effective custody to brainwashed lunatics. It's not that hard. Just go through Sagewalk's staff pages and google some of the names listed there. They have a history. You know it. We know it. Sagewalk knows it. Aspen knows it. STICC knows it (prolly some of them among the partners).
Whooter wrote:
There must be a solution which allows these wilderness programs to operate and be successful and at the same time keep the children safe from a fate like Sergeys.
Antigen wrote:
Yes! Make them entirely voluntary and quit pretending it's medicine on the order of heart surgery or cancer treatment.
Whooter wrote:
Any truley therapeutic relationship must be based on trust. Coercion destroys trust. Pick one and run with it (and scisors, if you like). return undef() if /coercion/sig;
***************************************************************************************************************************
Re: Sheriff recommends death be identified a homicide - Sagewalk
New postby Antigen » Yesterday, 23:00
Joel wrote: Deputy Pore contends that SageWalk and the Aspen Education Group approved or knowingly tolerated practices at the camp that *allowed employees to ignore the physical complaints of students, and that resulted in the death of Sergey Blashchishen.
Antigen wrote:
Joel, man, I think it runs deeper than that. You say "practices that allowed employees to ignore the physical complaints of students..." Think about that. Like there are a lot of folks out there who would sit down and have a picnic and watch a kid die for an hour or two if only it weren't for those bothersome authorities who disallow it. I think Ursus is more on point when he describes "the same "therapeutic milieu" responsible for molding kids' minds is also responsible for skewing the innate instincts and common sense of the staff, not to mention interfere or run counter to the appropriate training they may or may not have received."
Know what would help a LOT? If Oprah and Dr. Phool would see the light like Montel did and do a segment or 50 investigating the industry instead of promoting it.
****************************************************************************************************************************
DannyBII wrote:
I don't think the staff are trained at all really and when the final report comes out this I believe will be evident. Going back to Deputy Pore investigation, the warrant to search and confiscate files, this information has not been revealed yet and I am sure part of what their looking for is training and education obviously.
I have heard from Che and Joel and from what you both are saying you were trained and could have adequately dealt with this problem, obviously these staff employees could not. I don't believe the problem lies with the staff/leaders on this hike anyways, it is their supervisors that scare me with their recklessness and blatant disregard for analysis of new intakes. I wonder how many of the deaths on these wilderness hikes happen to children that had been there approximately a week or so.
Why are children allowed to go on hikes within 24 hrs of getting there.
Joel you said that they Sagewalk is not equipped to deal with drug addicts, well in the Deputy report it is clearly said that he did have a drug problem. I would surely like to know why you are saying that they don't deal with clientele that have drug issues. I have never heard that, not to say I am a expert either yet it just doesn't make any sense.
Danny
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Re: Sheriff recommends death be identified a homicide - Sagewalk
New postby Antigen » Yesterday, 22:43
Whooter wrote:What could they have done differently which would have saved Sergey and save other children going forward? Root cause needs to be identified and corrective action put into place so that deaths like Sergeys do not happen again.
Antigen wrote:
Well, for starters, you could quit supporting lunatic notions like "trust the process" and "these kids are all untrustworthy, manipulative liars" and "ya have to break a few eggs to make an omlett".
Look, Sergey died because he was placed in the care of people who sincerely believe that the proper response to a kid showing clear signs of accute dehydration is to assume he's faking for attention and hava a picnic under the nearest shade tree rather than to feel his arm pit to see if he's stopped sweating. And the proper response to that same kid not breathing is to call the program staff, not 911.
The root cause is that the people running these programs are dangerously irrational. The proper response to that is not to appoint another committee of equally dangerously irrational bureaucrats to slap safety warning labels on their foreheads. The proper response is for parents and all other legal guardians (such as officals and private citizens acting in prentis locus) to take note that this shit happens and to do due dilligence prior to signing over effective custody to brainwashed lunatics. It's not that hard. Just go through Sagewalk's staff pages and google some of the names listed there. They have a history. You know it. We know it. Sagewalk knows it. Aspen knows it. STICC knows it (prolly some of them among the partners).
Whooter wrote:
There must be a solution which allows these wilderness programs to operate and be successful and at the same time keep the children safe from a fate like Sergeys.
Antigen wrote:
Yes! Make them entirely voluntary and quit pretending it's medicine on the order of heart surgery or cancer treatment.
Whooter wrote:
Any truley therapeutic relationship must be based on trust. Coercion destroys trust. Pick one and run with it (and scisors, if you like). return undef() if /coercion/sig;
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Re: Sheriff recommends death be identified a homicide - Sagewalk
New postby Antigen » Yesterday, 23:00
Joel wrote: Deputy Pore contends that SageWalk and the Aspen Education Group approved or knowingly tolerated practices at the camp that *allowed employees to ignore the physical complaints of students, and that resulted in the death of Sergey Blashchishen.
Antigen wrote:
Joel, man, I think it runs deeper than that. You say "practices that allowed employees to ignore the physical complaints of students..." Think about that. Like there are a lot of folks out there who would sit down and have a picnic and watch a kid die for an hour or two if only it weren't for those bothersome authorities who disallow it. I think Ursus is more on point when he describes "the same "therapeutic milieu" responsible for molding kids' minds is also responsible for skewing the innate instincts and common sense of the staff, not to mention interfere or run counter to the appropriate training they may or may not have received."
Know what would help a LOT? If Oprah and Dr. Phool would see the light like Montel did and do a segment or 50 investigating the industry instead of promoting it.
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DannyBII wrote:
I don't think the staff are trained at all really and when the final report comes out this I believe will be evident. Going back to Deputy Pore investigation, the warrant to search and confiscate files, this information has not been revealed yet and I am sure part of what their looking for is training and education obviously.
I have heard from Che and Joel and from what you both are saying you were trained and could have adequately dealt with this problem, obviously these staff employees could not. I don't believe the problem lies with the staff/leaders on this hike anyways, it is their supervisors that scare me with their recklessness and blatant disregard for analysis of new intakes. I wonder how many of the deaths on these wilderness hikes happen to children that had been there approximately a week or so.
Why are children allowed to go on hikes within 24 hrs of getting there.
Joel you said that they Sagewalk is not equipped to deal with drug addicts, well in the Deputy report it is clearly said that he did have a drug problem. I would surely like to know why you are saying that they don't deal with clientele that have drug issues. I have never heard that, not to say I am a expert either yet it just doesn't make any sense.
Danny
:shamrock: :shamrock:
DannyBII wrote: If you read this paragraph below you will see Joel, they do deal with drug and alcohol issues. The Wilderness Programs. Now I am not saying effectively but they advertise they address it.
http://www.aspeneducation.com/Outdoor-edu.html (http://www.aspeneducation.com/Outdoor-edu.html)
CALL: (888) 972-7736
Wilderness therapy programs sometimes referred to as Outdoor Education, have proven themselves to be exceptional catalysts for change in troubled children and teenagers. Because of our reputation for quality, safety and longevity, many of Aspen's wilderness programs have been highlighted in TV documentaries and written about in the national media. This unique experience can be described as a "rite of passage," a transformational process that is difficult to find in our fast-paced, modern society. Our therapists and counselors guide teens toward self-reliance and self-respect. The impact of these programs on troubled teens with such behavioral problems as low self-esteem, poor school performance, defiance of authority, depression, and drug or alcohol abuse has been well documented. Parents can feel confident that their children will get the treatment and care they need at Aspen's Outdoor Therapy Wilderness Programs. For international inquiries, click here.
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Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
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Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
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http://www.wilderness-therapy-programs.com/faqs.htm
Will my child be safe?
A: The safety of our students is our "number one" concern, and SageWalk is highly involved with risk (http://http://www.wilderness-therapy-programs.com/images/photos/airlife.jpg)
management and safety at all times. Our staff is required to be thoroughly trained in the latest techniques for both medical and non-medical emergencies and evacuation drills are held on a regular basis.
SageWalk goes beyond:
* We require all Head Instructors to be Wilderness First Responder (WFR) certified
* All students medical needs are overseen by registered nurse
* Each family is automatically enrolled in Air-Life (a medical helicopter evacuation plan)
* All staff are thoroughly trained and have Satellite Cellular phones, or cellular phones
* All Field Instructors are required to make safety check in calls to base twice a day
* SageWalk keeps an ERV (Emergency Relief Vehicle) near the field location at all times
* All Instructors are required to be in student briefing prior to their shift
* All Students in the SageWalk program are thoroughly screened by a Physician prior to going to the field
SageWalk supports the highest standard of safety and our goal is to keep your child's environment safe as well as productive.
Sagewalk did not live up to the "highest standard of safety" on Aug. 28, 2009 when Sergey Blashchishen died. The State of Oregon should shut Sagewalk down.
:shamrock: :shamrock:
Thank You, Joel...This says it all.
Danny
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Interesting tidbit
Sagewalk employed Aaron Bacon's murderer, Eric Henry during a 9 month diversion agreement following Bacon's death. Then went on to Obsidian Trails where another death occured.
http://www.sociopranos.com/forums/threa ... &start=401 (http://www.sociopranos.com/forums/thread-view.asp?threadid=225&start=401)
Long term memory problems?
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Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
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The program could feed, detox and stabilize the child for a week and then get clearance from a test (blood test) of some sort which deems the child healthy enough to move into the wilderness program. Just coming off butts and junk food suddenly would be enough to put the body in shock and throw off the electrolytes I would think.
Exactly! In military boot camp, this is what they call Weather Acclimation. New recruits spend about a week in process, getting clothes, standing in formation, drinking water about every 15 minutes, full diet, down time at night, etc. It's a tough enough regimen. You can be punished for failure to drink enough water, rolling up your sleeves and getting sun burnt or failure to follow any directive at all without question. The charge is usually "damaging government property". But they also have IV sets on-hand and, if your battle buddy reports that you're looking kinda puny, the Sergent WILL order the medic to shove a thermometer up your ass and hydrate you by IV if you over-heat.
But in the military, the object is to produce soldiers who will be fit and trained to function under adverse conditions. In the Program, from the midnight abduction all the way through to the exit plan, the object is to break the inductee and produce a totally dependent, helpless person who can't think for themselves if their life or the life of one of their charges depended on it. Program staff are the success stories. These guys did just exactly as they were trained to do. That's why this keeps happening again and again.
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The program could feed, detox and stabilize the child for a week and then get clearance from a test (blood test) of some sort which deems the child healthy enough to move into the wilderness program. Just coming off butts and junk food suddenly would be enough to put the body in shock and throw off the electrolytes I would think.
Exactly! In military boot camp, this is what they call Weather Acclimation. New recruits spend about a week in process, getting clothes, standing in formation, drinking water about every 15 minutes, full diet, down time at night, etc. It's a tough enough regimen. You can be punished for failure to drink enough water, rolling up your sleeves and getting sun burnt or failure to follow any directive at all without question. The charge is usually "damaging government property". But they also have IV sets on-hand and, if your battle buddy reports that you're looking kinda puny, the Sergent WILL order the medic to shove a thermometer up your ass and hydrate you by IV if you over-heat.
:shamrock: :shamrock:
That is a bit of a exaggeration but thanks, point well taken. Many of men in bootcamp and war are dying due to lack of proper integration and nutrition, you just don't hear about it. Military Machine. It is called dying do to Bla Bla Bla.....
But in the military, the object is to produce soldiers who will be fit and trained to function under adverse conditions. In the Program, from the midnight abduction all the way through to the exit plan, the object is to break the inductee and produce a totally dependent, helpless person who can't think for themselves if their life or the life of one of their charges depended on it. Program staff are the success stories. These guys did just exactly as they were trained to do. That's why this keeps happening again and again.
:shamrock: :shamrock:
Antigen, I just used the analogy of my being in bootcamp and how they went about nutrition before sending us out on a hike as a example of "Hey WTF" are you doing sending a young kid out on a 2 mile hike within 24 hrs of getting to this camp. I just thought (common sense) would prevail.
I agree with you 100% that what they did with this child from the time he was abducted to his untimely death
was a blatant disregard for human freedom and life. You will never see myself argue this point.
Danny
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I quoted a comment by the investigator and don't believe people sit around watching children die at a picnic. But I could be reading into your statement wrong. If any people honestly believe those are my true thoughts, then I'm beyond offended. That I would take very personal.
No, no, no! I didn't mean it that way at all and don't think that of you. Please don't take me the wrong way. I'm only making the point that lack of oversight doesn't really explain it all. These "counselors" aren't just lacking in good instruction. Seems they're influenced by decidedly bad instruction. Ya' know, The Tools®.
Anyway, I haven't read the rest of the thread. Just wanted to try and clear that up. Peace? Ya peace and carats.
Reading......
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The program could feed, detox and stabilize the child for a week and then get clearance from a test (blood test) of some sort which deems the child healthy enough to move into the wilderness program. Just coming off butts and junk food suddenly would be enough to put the body in shock and throw off the electrolytes I would think.
Exactly! In military boot camp, this is what they call Weather Acclimation. New recruits spend about a week in process, getting clothes, standing in formation, drinking water about every 15 minutes, full diet, down time at night, etc. It's a tough enough regimen. You can be punished for failure to drink enough water, rolling up your sleeves and getting sun burnt or failure to follow any directive at all without question. The charge is usually "damaging government property". But they also have IV sets on-hand and, if your battle buddy reports that you're looking kinda puny, the Sergent WILL order the medic to shove a thermometer up your ass and hydrate you by IV if you over-heat.
But in the military, the object is to produce soldiers who will be fit and trained to function under adverse conditions. In the Program, from the midnight abduction all the way through to the exit plan, the object is to break the inductee and produce a totally dependent, helpless person who can't think for themselves if their life or the life of one of their charges depended on it. Program staff are the success stories. These guys did just exactly as they were trained to do. That's why this keeps happening again and again.
If it turns out this would have saved Sergey’s life I am sure this is something the programs could implement. The parents are not going to have a problem having the child stabilized prior to setting out on a hike. This could be done by a third party or by the program themselves.
As far as the programs trying to make a dependent child who cannot think for themselves. This could not be farther from the truth. I think if you looked at the kids who didn’t do so well then maybe they do become followers. But the kids I have seen coming out of these places are fully independent and have matured well beyond their peers and do very well in college and life. I can see how one would get this impression by just reading here on fornits, but there are tens of thousands of kids who go thru these programs every year, very few end up here on fornits. So it is a biased cross section that we see here, in my opinion, which leads you to your conclusion.
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http://www.wilderness-therapy-programs.com/faqs.htm
Will my child be safe?
A: The safety of our students is our "number one" concern, and SageWalk is highly involved with risk (http://http://www.wilderness-therapy-programs.com/images/photos/airlife.jpg)
management and safety at all times. Our staff is required to be thoroughly trained in the latest techniques for both medical and non-medical emergencies and evacuation drills are held on a regular basis.
SageWalk goes beyond:
* We require all Head Instructors to be Wilderness First Responder (WFR) certified
* All students medical needs are overseen by registered nurse
* Each family is automatically enrolled in Air-Life (a medical helicopter evacuation plan)
* All staff are thoroughly trained and have Satellite Cellular phones, or cellular phones
* All Field Instructors are required to make safety check in calls to base twice a day
* SageWalk keeps an ERV (Emergency Relief Vehicle) near the field location at all times
* All Instructors are required to be in student briefing prior to their shift
* All Students in the SageWalk program are thoroughly screened by a Physician prior to going to the field
SageWalk supports the highest standard of safety and our goal is to keep your child's environment safe as well as productive.
Sagewalk did not live up to the "highest standard of safety" on Aug. 28, 2009 when Sergey Blashchishen died. The State of Oregon should shut Sagewalk down.
Wow, Great post Joel. So the program does go to great lengths to keep these children safe. But even with their defined safety net a child was able to slip through the cracks. I am sure the investigation team will compare the above safety measures to what occurred in real life along with the cause of Sergeys death and come up with the root cause and who dropped the ball.
I think this puts to rest the theory that programs have the local cops in the hip pocket. I am sure the other wilderness programs are following this investigation closely also.
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Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
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If it turns out this would have saved Sergey’s life I am sure this is something the programs could implement.
Yeah, no shit, Shirlock! Could have back when Aaron Bacon died back in `94.
The question of the decade is "Why haven't they?"
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Whooter the best you can say is "Wow, Great post Joel?" You are a true piece of work. Sagewalk (Aspen Education Group owned wilderness program) failed to utilize the tools at their discretion in order to save a life. This speaks volumes about the programs integrity and leadership. There is no excuse for what the staff did at Sagewalk Whooter and I'm not convinced you understand that.
Your exactly right, Joel, I don’t understand. That is why I am asking the question of what went wrong. Anyone who cares about Sergey should be wondering the same thing I am. Which tools did they fail to utilize? You were not specific and what could they have done differently which would have saved Sergeys life? Can you post the steps that directly caused Sergey to die instead of lists?
I mentioned twice on page 10 of this thread the State of Oregon should shut Sagewalk down. Sagewalk fucked up when they hired Eric Henry then their latest fuckup resulting in the death of an innocent child's life. Yet, you still say, "Wow, Great post Joel."
So do you think if you mention it 3 times the state will listen to you? lol If we followed your advice and just shut down Sagewalk how will this help other kids in other wilderness camps? I am interested in determining root cause so that other kid’s lives can be saved. Why are you not interested in this?
If someone dies of food poisoning in a restaurant that is part of a chain how would it help to just shut down the restaurant without determining how it occurred? Wouldnt you be concerned that the other restaurants could make the same mistake?
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If it turns out this would have saved Sergey’s life I am sure this is something the programs could implement.
Yeah, no shit, Shirlock! Could have back when Aaron Bacon died back in `94.
The question of the decade is "Why haven't they?"
Exactly!! Why does everyone take the macro view here on fornits and feel if we just destroyed the wilderness then maybe there would not be any more wilderness programs and no more kids would die. Shutting down programs isnt going to save lives. 43,000 people die in car accidents every year. Would a smart solution to this be to make all vehicles illegal and just stop driving? or should we look to work on solutions from an intelligent point of view?
Kids are going to die in programs and if you shut the programs down kids will die someplace else. The key is to continuously improve them and reduce the risk and make them safer and safer. Programs may be 1,000% safer than when Aaron died in '94 and we have been able to avert many deaths because of the changes that have been made since then, who knows?
According to Oscars data less than 1 child dies every year in programs. Thousands die each year in the public school system and thousands more die at home.
The one thing that many here do not seem to care about are the specific events that caused Sergeys death.... identify these events and plug the hole in other programs. How come people want to burn down the forest?
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But in the military, the object is to produce soldiers who will be fit and trained to function under adverse conditions. In the Program, from the midnight abduction all the way through to the exit plan, the object is to break the inductee and produce a totally dependent, helpless person who can't think for themselves if their life or the life of one of their charges depended on it. Program staff are the success stories. These guys did just exactly as they were trained to do. That's why this keeps happening again and again.
:tup:
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Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
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Personally I see a single person expressing his opinion and a whole group of followers here on fornits treating it as gospel and dropping before his feet.
So, we can't really believe or trust the word of the investigating officer (who you refer to as " a single person", conveniently leaving out that he is the investigating deputy), yet.....
There were 2 EMT’s on the hike with these kids. How could these symptoms get past them?
You're totally fine with listing the "counselors" (I wonder what they're counseling credentials are?) as "EMTs" when it only said they had EMT training. Now, it could be that they actually are EMTs, but if they were, you'd think it would plainly state that they are "certified EMTs"....not the ambiguously phrased "EMT trained". But that's par for the course for them. And you.
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Please don't insult with "Anyone who cares about Sergey should be wondering the same thing I am" line of thought. Whooter educated people on this website can only help you piece together so much of the puzzle. People have made several good points per your questions in this thread and I don't have the energy to spoon feed the obvious to you.
So you are not interested in finding out what went wrong and fixing it for the next child. You would be happy in just shutting the place down….. Interesting.
Whooter your "lol" line of logic is warped and I am at a loss for words. Sell your line of "lol" logic to Sergey Blashchishena's parents and let us know how they feel. As far as your second question, it will help children from dying. I don't think people on this website can explain it to you any better than that. The death of Aaron Bacon, Sergey Blashchishena and hiring of Eric Henry justify the State of Oregon shutting down Sagewalk. Aspen Education Group doesn't have a colorful record in the State of Oregon Whooter. Mount Bachelor also got caught with their pants down when they knowingly abused children.
What about kids in other programs? If we understand what went wrong we can help others. Shutting down a program doesn’t help anyone. The kids just get shifted to another wilderness program. Why cant you look past your own agenda and think about the kids themselves. Who cares what programs open and which close as long as we can put corrective action in place across the board to keep them safe. We cant do this until we know what went wrong.
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So, we can't really believe or trust the word of the investigating officer (who you refer to as " a single person", conveniently leaving out that he is the investigating deputy), yet.....
Exactly, what the deputy can do is make a recommendation. There are several other agencies investigating this childs death also. We should wait for all the facts to come in.
You're totally fine with listing the "counselors" (I wonder what they're counseling credentials are?) as "EMTs" when it only said they had EMT training. Now, it could be that they actually are EMTs, but if they were, you'd think it would plainly state that they are "certified EMTs"....not the ambiguously phrased "EMT trained". But that's par for the course for them. And you.
I think training is going to be a central part of what went wrong. The investigators will surely sort out what type of training the staff had and how it was applied. Should each group have a certified EMT? Should all staff have basic training in first aid or EMT training? If the investigation concludes that having a “Certified” EMT would have saved Sergey then we have our root cause? (and possibly corrective action?) If training was not the central issue then they will need to look elsewhere.
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So, we can't really believe or trust the word of the investigating officer (who you refer to as " a single person", conveniently leaving out that he is the investigating deputy), yet.....
Exactly, what the deputy can do is make a recommendation. There are several other agencies investigating this childs death also. We should wait for all the facts to come in.
You're totally fine with listing the "counselors" (I wonder what they're counseling credentials are?) as "EMTs" when it only said they had EMT training. Now, it could be that they actually are EMTs, but if they were, you'd think it would plainly state that they are "certified EMTs"....not the ambiguously phrased "EMT trained". But that's par for the course for them. And you.
I think training is going to be a central part of what went wrong. The investigators will surely sort out what type of training the staff had and how it was applied. Should each group have a certified EMT? Should all staff have basic training in first aid or EMT training? If the investigation concludes that having a “Certified” EMT would have saved Sergey then we have our root cause? (and possibly corrective action?) If training was not the central issue then they will need to look elsewhere.
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(http://http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n32/Dr_Zoidberg71/thePoint.jpg)
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What about kids in other programs? > The death of Sergey Blashchishena will be a sad tragic reminder for programs to get their shit together, start following the law and taking child safety very seriously. As far as your agenda question Whooter, I speak for the victims now. I worked enough in the TTI to see what really goes on.
You have no idea what you are talking about,Joel. Which law do they need to follow? What specific law did the program not follow that caused Sergeys death? How do you define “Very seriously”? How about “very, very seriously” would this save more lives?.... “Or very, very,very serious”?
Do you see my point?
We cant just shoot a letter off to the program telling them they are all set as long as they take safety seriously from now on. Come on Joel, you know better than that. We need to know what caused the child to die… who dropped the ball and which events (if corrected) would have saved his life.
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http://cafety.org/privately-funded-prog ... tion-group (http://cafety.org/privately-funded-programs/788-sagewalk-death-brat-camp-aspen-education-group)
The students later had a meal of rice and lentils. Though some students were allowed to ask for up to five cups of food, Blashchishen, as a newcomer, was offered just two, according to the affidavit.
What's the purpose of that??
Poré wrote that SageWalk staff members could not provide information about what else, if anything, Blashchishen ate before the meal of lentils and rice. He wrote that the boy could have had as few as 400 calories during the day. :eek:
Just after 2 p.m., staff members called the school’s field supervisor to report that Blashchishen had vomited, but the hike continued.
That right there should have set off very loud alarm bells in the minds of these "EMT trained" staff. But no, they wait til he stops fucking breathing......
“This was not a call in progress explaining that Sergey was doing weird things and then during the conversation he collapsed,” Poré wrote. “This call began with the announcement of the cessation of life and the beginning of CPR. This is a call that should have gone first and directly to 911.”
It appears that the behavioral focus is placed maybe above the medical focus in the food chain, and you end up with situations where the counselors, the people involved with the camps, are involving straightforward medical symptoms and signs in an attempt to shape behavior, and they should be responding more properly to medical issues.” ~ Attorney for Sergey's parents.
“The pattern suggests that SageWalk, as a day care facility having a seemingly special right to press children to their maximum and beyond, is without the capability to separate symptoms of misbehavior from symptoms of approaching death,” Poré wrote. “(My) interviews strongly suggest that, at least for the last nine months, SageWalk may have taken children to the precipice of disaster and been lucky. On Friday, August 28th, 2009, this luck ran out.”
"Special right to press children to their maximum and beyond". That, I believe, is one of the core faults. Programs seem to subscribe to the belief that the end justifies the means.
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What's the purpose of that??
Not sure, They ate the same thing when my daughter attended SUWS of the Carolinas
That right there should have set off very loud alarm bells in the minds of these "EMT trained" staff. But no, they wait til he stops fucking breathing......
Well, I think it may just come down to training of these staff people. Although vomiting the first day out might be normal or non life threatening. I am not trained in this area.
"Special right to press children to their maximum and beyond". That, I believe, is one of the core faults. Programs seem to subscribe to the belief that the end justifies the means.
Right after that he says:…. , is without the capability to separate symptoms of misbehavior from symptoms of approaching death,” Poré wrote.
I think this may have played into the reason they didn’t call 911 earlier.
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Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
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Not sure, They ate the same thing when my daughter attended SUWS of the Carolinas
What's the purpose of the newcomer getting less to eat than someone who'd been there a while?
Well, I think it may just come down to training of these staff people. Although vomiting the first day out might be normal or non life threatening. I am not trained in this area.
Obviously. I'm not either but even me, as a layperson, can recognize the beginning stages of heatstroke. Most anyone with even a modicum of decency or compassion would, especially in light of the fact that this is being done in the heat of the desert, err on the side of caution.
"Special right to press children to their maximum and beyond". That, I believe, is one of the core faults. Programs seem to subscribe to the belief that the end justifies the means.
Right after that he says:…. , is without the capability to separate symptoms of misbehavior from symptoms of approaching death,” Poré wrote.
I think this may have played into the reason they didn’t call 911 earlier.
Yep, it sure did. Because the staff's first thought is to call other program staff (the "oh shit, maybe we really fucked up" realization)....not to get medical help. They've been trained to regard these kids a just a buncha spoiled druggie kids and to regard any complaints that the kids have about treatment as manipulation. Hell, we were flat out told that we didn't have any rights.
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What's the purpose of the newcomer getting less to eat than someone who'd been there a while?
Not sure….. Could be part of the detox or a cleansing process of some sort.
Obviously. I'm not either but even me, as a layperson, can recognize the beginning stages of heatstroke. Most anyone with even a modicum of decency or compassion would, especially in light of the fact that this is being done in the heat of the desert, err on the side of caution.
I would too (err on the side of caution), but it is possible that a high percentage of kids vomit their first day out and therefore wasn’t that unusual. People detox and cleanse primarily through their pores, vomiting and urine. Although vomiting should raise a red flag in my opinion and warrant close attention, especially in the heat. The more I talk about it the more I feel the staff were not trained properly for this.
Yep, it sure did. Because the staff's first thought is to call other program staff (the "oh shit, maybe we really fucked up" realization)....not to get medical help. They've been trained to regard these kids a just a buncha spoiled druggie kids and to regard any complaints that the kids have about treatment as manipulation. Hell, we were flat out told that we didn't have any rights.
Well, they were right, the kids don’t have any rights. Maybe the staff called 911, in the past, only to find out the kid was faking and the program higher ups reamed their asses for wasting time and valuable resources on a non problem. So maybe they were afraid to call this time and waited too long.
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The students later had a meal of rice and lentils. Though some students were allowed to ask for up to five cups of food, Blashchishen, as a newcomer, was offered just two, according to the affidavit.
What's the purpose of that?
[/i]
Anne I can' t offer you a good explanation, besides the program is fucked up, even though I worked for a wilderness program. The children under my care ate well, including on wilderness trips. The exceptions being when they threw food all over the chuck tent or messed up cooking their meals during cook outs. The supervisors would bring down mac 'n cheese for 12 people, milk and bread rolls. I will say two cups is neglect and cruel.
Why would 2 cups be considered neglect and cruel?
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Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
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http://www.google.com - Do some research on daily calorie intake for exercise like the children do at Sagewalk.
So you dont have anything...... it is safe to say you cannot support your abuse and neglect allegations and the kids get enough nutrition on these hikes. If you remember how you came about your information just toss it up here and we will take a look.
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Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
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DHS regulations for wilderness schools require all students to be offered no less than 3,000 calories of food per day. Blashchishen, as a newcomer, was offered just two, according to the affidavit. Hmmm...2 cups of food, heavy exercise.... Not enough food = neglect = violating DHS regulations = endangering the welfare of a minor! Do the math below Whooter!
The two cups that were offered was for one meal (not the entire day), you might have been confused there. Sergey wasn’t with Sagewalk the whole first day so probably ate breakfast with the transport guys prior to getting there.
There wasn’t any indication that Sergey was exercising at all. 1,200 to 1,500 calories isnt abusive if you are sitting around all day. The key is if he were getting enough fluids and electrolytes to detox his system. This is more important than food the first day or two, the kids typically have plenty of fat on them to burn off.
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Yep, it sure did. Because the staff's first thought is to call other program staff (the "oh shit, maybe we really fucked up" realization)....not to get medical help. They've been trained to regard these kids a just a buncha spoiled druggie kids and to regard any complaints that the kids have about treatment as manipulation. Hell, we were flat out told that we didn't have any rights.
Well, they were right, the kids don’t have any rights. Maybe the staff called 911, in the past, only to find out the kid was faking and the program higher ups reamed their asses for wasting time and valuable resources on a non problem. So maybe they were afraid to call this time and waited too long.
Are you fucking kidding me?? Yes...contrary to what you'd like reality to be....kids most certainly do have rights. Those rights aren't recognized by the sadistic fucking control freaks that run programs, but they absolutely do have them. You really are an ass.
I don't give a shit if the staff was afraid of getting their asses reamed or afraid of Elliot Sainer himself!!! If you've got a kid vomiting during a hike in the desert heat, while carrying 80 lbs of gear, on his FIRST day and then he STOPS FUCKING BREATHING....you call 911, not your fucking boss. Especially after other kids have been killed in the very same manner at one of your other shitpits.
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Anne, this is the same guy who said programs shouldn't have an abuse hotline because the "operator might talk dirty to the the kids" if they were allowed to call. He's an idiot. He obviously doesn't care at all that this kid died unnecessarily at the hands of quacks. No normal person would defend that. Only someone with a fiduciary interest in Aspen Education would say anything resembling what Whooter says. He doesn't care that kids die in programs for things that are 100% preventable.
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I don't give a shit if the staff was afraid of getting their asses reamed or afraid of Elliot Sainer himself!!! If you've got a kid vomiting during a hike in the desert heat, while carrying 80 lbs of gear, on his FIRST day and then he STOPS FUCKING BREATHING....you call 911, not your fucking boss. Especially after other kids have been killed in the very same manner at one of your other shitpits.
I probably would have called 911 myself long before they did, but I haven’t been on a ton of hikes in wilderness. Maybe vomiting is typical the first day out, who knows. I wouldn’t care about getting my ass reamed out and it doesn’t seem like you would either, but we cant speak for the staff out on the hike. What was their motive? What was the extent of their training?
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I think it's a great idea to put up a TheWho FAQ's page. You could categorize it and provide his stock answer along with the debunking for various topics. Great idea.
Two posts above I referenced "HLA" in the abuse hotline story, but it was actually ASR, where TheWho sent his daughter. Here's what he has to say about the potential of a counselor sexually abusing a child at ASR, where there is no abuse hotline as required by Mass law:
Now, let's examine this, Who: Let's say, for argument's sake that a kid's very own counselor sexually abuses him/her. ASR's plan, as you verified with them like I did, is to have that child report the abuse directly to the person that perpetrated it.
This is downright scary and paves the road for child abuse. I would avoid this facility at all costs. It's dangerous!
Sure, DJ, of course it is possible. The guy on the abuse hot line could talk dirty to the kids also... The hot line never helped the kids who were raped by their teacher at public school, so, the way I see it, you need to do 2 things to convince us one is needed:
1. Determine if the law requires a �Hot Line� to be installed in the school.
2. How effective is this hot line in keeping kids safe.
That's really all you need to know. TheWho advocates silencing abuse victims and protecting their abusers. Plain and simple, folks.
If he was a parent, he would never, ever, do that. He's nothing but a con artist... a total and complete sociopath.
Just look at who you're talking to, Anne.
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I don't give a shit if the staff was afraid of getting their asses reamed or afraid of Elliot Sainer himself!!! If you've got a kid vomiting during a hike in the desert heat, while carrying 80 lbs of gear, on his FIRST day and then he STOPS FUCKING BREATHING....you call 911, not your fucking boss. Especially after other kids have been killed in the very same manner at one of your other shitpits.
I probably would have called 911 myself long before they did, but I haven’t been on a ton of hikes in wilderness. Maybe vomiting is typical the first day out, who knows. I wouldn’t care about getting my ass reamed out and it doesn’t seem like you would either, but we cant speak for the staff out on the hike. What was their motive? What was the extent of their training?
To keep the program out of trouble. To hide what really goes on. That's what all the isolation, secrecy, limiting of communication, closed society, insular world with no outside contact is all about. It obviously ain't about the kids' safety. This shit keeps happening and people like you keep making excuses for them. It really is twisted.
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What was their motive? What was the extent of their training?
To keep the program out of trouble. To hide what really goes on. That's what all the isolation, secrecy, limiting of communication, closed society, insular world with no outside contact is all about. It obviously ain't about the kids' safety. This shit keeps happening and people like you keep making excuses for them. It really is twisted.
Its called wilderness. Our society, as you know it, use to all live in the wilderness, Anne. The place is isolated, with limited communication. I don’t know how you can define a few hikers as a closed society and their motive for not calling sooner wasn’t secrecy or keeping out of trouble. Leaving dead bodies around the dessert or woods isn’t a good design for secrecy lol, and certainly wont result in keeping the program out of trouble.
Why are you so afraid of finding out what caused Sergeys death? Why do you attempt to suppress the truth or change the subject by accusing anyone who wants to talk openly about this as making excuses or protecting the program?
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Its called wilderness. Our society, as you know it, use to all live in the wilderness, Anne. The place is isolated, with limited communication. I don’t know how you can define a few hikers as a closed society and their motive for not calling sooner wasn’t secrecy or keeping out of trouble.
I don't know how you can call a Wilderness program "a few hikers". It's a bit more than that, but you know that and are AGAIN purposely trying to confuse the reader in defense of your precious program.
Why are you so afraid of finding out what caused Sergeys death?
I'm not, but apparently you are or you wouldn't STILL be here doing damage control.
Why do you attempt to suppress the truth or change the subject by accusing anyone who wants to talk openly about this as making excuses or protecting the program?
Yeah, it's me who's doing that. Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhtttt.
Wanna explain why you don't think kids have any rights?
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I don't know how you can call a Wilderness program "a few hikers". It's a bit more than that, but you know that and are AGAIN purposely trying to confuse the reader in defense of your precious program.
From my experience. My daughters' group had 6 kids in all when she was at SUWS. I wouldn’t call that a closed society or a cult.
So,Anne, if you are not afraid of finding out the truth then why does it bother you that I am asking questions about it and trying to determine what happened? You seem content to take an arms length view of “a kid died in the programs care” and that’s all you want to know.
I, on the other hand, have a need to understand what happened specifically so that root cause can be determined and other kids can be spared a similar fate. But this bothers you for some reason, which I find interesting.
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From my experience.
You don't have any. Your kid might, but you don't.
My daughters' group had 6 kids in all when she was at SUWS. I wouldn’t call that a closed society or a cult.
Of course you wouldn't because you've never experienced it from the inside.
So,Anne, if you are not afraid of finding out the truth then why does it bother you that I am asking questions about it and trying to determine what happened?
If you were genuinely just asking questions, I wouldn't be bothered by it but you're not. You're spinning, deflecting and generally doing what you usually do. Damage control.
You seem content to take an arms length view of “a kid died in the programs care” and that’s all you want to know.
No, what I've stated is that ANOTHER kid died in the program's care, in the SAME MANNER as OTHER KIDS who have DIED IN THEIR CARE. I want to know what the purpose of having them hike with such loads on them. I want to know why he wasn't fed properly. I want to know why the staff's first instinct is to call their boss, not 911. You, OTOH, are only interested in making excuses for them.
I, on the other hand, have a need to understand what happened specifically so that root cause can be determined and other kids can be spared a similar fate.
No you don't. You're here to do damage control. Period. The root cause is that these places don't really give a shit about the kids entrusted to their care. If they did, they'd have ALREADY taken steps to prevent this, but they don't. Even after multiple deaths from pretty much the same cause(s).
Below is what I'd like to see parents do who feel they have "troubled" kids. You're a fan of outsourcing your parental responsibilities. I'm not.
Re: Rachel Uchitel, Cedu Celebrity, NY It Girl, Tiger Woods, etc
Postby Guest » Fri Dec 04, 2009 6:44 am
I remember when another celebrity, Angela Lansbury, found herself with a couple of "troubled" kids she and her husband put their careers on hold, moved to Ireland and spent time with them, getting the whole family on track. I always thought that was pretty cool AND her kids have real jobs today.
Now, wanna explain to the class why you don't think kids have any rights?
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I think it's a great idea to put up a TheWho FAQ's page. You could categorize it and provide his stock answer along with the debunking for various topics. Great idea.
Two posts above I referenced "HLA" in the abuse hotline story, but it was actually ASR, where TheWho sent his daughter. Here's what he has to say about the potential of a counselor sexually abusing a child at ASR, where there is no abuse hotline as required by Mass law:
Now, let's examine this, Who: Let's say, for argument's sake that a kid's very own counselor sexually abuses him/her. ASR's plan, as you verified with them like I did, is to have that child report the abuse directly to the person that perpetrated it.
This is downright scary and paves the road for child abuse. I would avoid this facility at all costs. It's dangerous!
Sure, DJ, of course it is possible. The guy on the abuse hot line could talk dirty to the kids also... The hot line never helped the kids who were raped by their teacher at public school, so, the way I see it, you need to do 2 things to convince us one is needed:
1. Determine if the law requires a �Hot Line� to be installed in the school.
2. How effective is this hot line in keeping kids safe.
That's really all you need to know. TheWho advocates silencing abuse victims and protecting their abusers. Plain and simple, folks.
Wow....that is pretty fucked up!
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If you were genuinely just asking questions, I wouldn't be bothered by it but you're not. You're spinning, deflecting and generally doing what you usually do. Damage control.
If you can post an example of this please place a link for me to see. I will apologize. But in almost every case "you" have taken the focus of the discussion off of Sergey and onto me. Lets stay on topic.
No, what I've stated is that ANOTHER kid died in the program's care, in the SAME MANNER as OTHER KIDS who have DIED IN THEIR CARE. I want to know what the purpose of having them hike with such loads on them. I want to know why he wasn't fed properly. I want to know why the staff's first instinct is to call their boss, not 911. You, OTOH, are only interested in making excuses for them.
Show me the excuses I have made. Its called a discussion, Anne. Why are you so afraid of this? You get threatened every time anyone questions the details of Sergeys death and you translate this into spinning or damage control. But when asked for examples you come up empty.
If you are afraid of the details then stick your head in the sand and pretend what you have to to make yourself feel safe.
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Lets stay on topic.
Fuck you.
Why are you so afraid of this? You get threatened every time anyone questions the details of Sergeys death and you translate this into spinning or damage control. But when asked for examples you come up empty.
If you are afraid of the details then stick your head in the sand and pretend what you have to to make yourself feel safe.
I'm not afraid of anything. I'm annoyed with your constant deflection. It's difficult to have a civilized discussion about the care of children with someone who doesn't think they have any rights.
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I think it's a great idea to put up a TheWho FAQ's page. You could categorize it and provide his stock answer along with the debunking for various topics. Great idea.
Two posts above I referenced "HLA" in the abuse hotline story, but it was actually ASR, where TheWho sent his daughter. Here's what he has to say about the potential of a counselor sexually abusing a child at ASR, where there is no abuse hotline as required by Mass law:
Now, let's examine this, Who: Let's say, for argument's sake that a kid's very own counselor sexually abuses him/her. ASR's plan, as you verified with them like I did, is to have that child report the abuse directly to the person that perpetrated it.
This is downright scary and paves the road for child abuse. I would avoid this facility at all costs. It's dangerous!
Sure, DJ, of course it is possible. The guy on the abuse hot line could talk dirty to the kids also... The hot line never helped the kids who were raped by their teacher at public school, so, the way I see it, you need to do 2 things to convince us one is needed:
1. Determine if the law requires a �Hot Line� to be installed in the school.
2. How effective is this hot line in keeping kids safe.
That's really all you need to know. TheWho advocates silencing abuse victims and protecting their abusers. Plain and simple, folks.
Wow....that is pretty fucked up!
Indeed it is, Anne. Whooter is a child abuse/neglect/murder apologist. He makes his living off Aspen Education and other programs. He has a deep need to spin to protect his income. He's nothing more than shill placed here to disrupt, deny, dissemble, deflect and deter.
I'd like to know what happened to Psy's outrage at his shilling and why he gave up on holding douchebag Whooter accountable for his nonsense.
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I'm not afraid of anything. I'm annoyed with your constant deflection. It's difficult to have a civilized discussion about the care of children with someone who doesn't think they have any rights.
So out of 12 pages you cant find a single post which I was doing damage control for the industry or running this off topic. If you see me do it then call me on it and point out the post. Dont make generalizations you cannot support. Otherwise lets keep the focus on Sagewalk and Sergey.
One of the areas we were getting into was the motive(s) of the staff who were with Sergey at the time of his death. I think we can all agree that these EMT (trained) employees didnt wake up that morning and plan to murder Sergey. So if it wasnt intentional then it must have been due to lack of training or not having the proper tools to do their job. I found it interesting that they didnt feel it necessary to stop when Sergey started vomiting. This may be a typical side effect for kids on their first day and therefore didnt raise a red flag for them.
It would be helpful to know what they were thinking when they called home base and to know exactly what the nurse told them.
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So out of 12 pages you cant find a single post which I was doing damage control for the industry or running this off topic. If you see me do it then call me on it and point out the post. Dont make generalizations you cannot support. Otherwise lets keep the focus on Sagewalk and Sergey.
One of the areas we were getting into was the motive(s) of the staff who were with Sergey at the time of his death. I think we can all agree that these EMT (trained) employees didnt wake up that morning and plan to murder Sergey. So if it wasnt intentional then it must have been due to lack of training or not having the proper tools to do their job. I found it interesting that they didnt feel it necessary to stop when Sergey started vomiting. This may be a typical side effect for kids on their first day and therefore didnt raise a red flag for them.
It would be helpful to know what they were thinking when they called home base and to know exactly what the nurse told them.
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It's difficult to have a civilized discussion about the care of children with someone who doesn't think they have any rights.
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So out of 12 pages you cant find a single post which I was doing damage control for the industry or running this off topic. If you see me do it then call me on it and point out the post. Dont make generalizations you cannot support. Otherwise lets keep the focus on Sagewalk and Sergey.
One of the areas we were getting into was the motive(s) of the staff who were with Sergey at the time of his death. I think we can all agree that these EMT (trained) employees didnt wake up that morning and plan to murder Sergey. So if it wasnt intentional then it must have been due to lack of training or not having the proper tools to do their job. I found it interesting that they didnt feel it necessary to stop when Sergey started vomiting. This may be a typical side effect for kids on their first day and therefore didnt raise a red flag for them.
It would be helpful to know what they were thinking when they called home base and to know exactly what the nurse told them.
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It's difficult to have a civilized discussion about the care of children with someone who doesn't think they have any rights.
I am sorry you feel so threatened by people with differing points of view then your own. But I do agree (and understand) that if you cannot be civil in this particular discussion, because of my personal views, then it is better for you to back away.
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I am sorry you feel so threatened by people with differing points of view then your own. But I do agree (and understand) that if you cannot be civil in this particular discussion, because of my personal views, then it is better for you to back away.
Just stop it already. I'm not threatened you sanctimonious prick. There's really no point in discussing the care of children with someone who doesn't think they have any rights. I mean really....where do we go from there? You see them as undeserving of the rights that the rest of us enjoy so what am I supposed to say in response to that other than WOW, that's really, really fucked up? You're more concerned with protecting the programs and, I believe, your own income derived from them.
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I am sorry you feel so threatened by people with differing points of view then your own. But I do agree (and understand) that if you cannot be civil in this particular discussion, because of my personal views, then it is better for you to back away.
Just stop it already. I'm not threatened you sanctimonious prick. There's really no point in discussing the care of children with someone who doesn't think they have any rights. I mean really....where do we go from there? You see them as undeserving of the rights that the rest of us enjoy so what am I supposed to say in response to that other than WOW, that's really, really fucked up? You're more concerned with protecting the programs and, I believe, your own income derived from them.
You hit it right on the head, Anne. This post should be a standard reply to Whooter's nonsense. Can I cut and paste it as a generic response to him? It is a fitting reply to 99% of his posts.......
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I am sorry you feel so threatened by people with differing points of view then your own. But I do agree (and understand) that if you cannot be civil in this particular discussion, because of my personal views, then it is better for you to back away.
Just stop it already. I'm not threatened you sanctimonious prick. There's really no point in discussing the care of children with someone who doesn't think they have any rights. I mean really....where do we go from there? You see them as undeserving of the rights that the rest of us enjoy so what am I supposed to say in response to that other than WOW, that's really, really fucked up? You're more concerned with protecting the programs and, I believe, your own income derived from them.
You hit it right on the head, Anne. This post should be a standard reply to Whooter's nonsense. Can I cut and paste it as a generic response to him? It is a fitting reply to 99% of his posts.......
Feel free darlin'!
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Just stop it already. I'm not threatened you sanctimonious prick. There's really no point in discussing the care of children with someone who doesn't think they have any rights. I mean really....where do we go from there? You see them as undeserving of the rights that the rest of us enjoy so what am I supposed to say in response to that other than WOW, that's really, really fucked up? You're more concerned with protecting the programs and, I believe, your own income derived from them.
I don’t decide if children have rights or not, the law does. They have human rights because they are little humans and should have protection from harm, fed etc.. But they don’t (and in my opinion shouldn’t) have childrens rights….the right to free speech, to vote, choose their religion, medical decisions etc.
How can we give a child the right to free speech before they can talk? How can we allow children to just decide to stay home from school at age 7 and drink beer all day? How can we give 12 year olds the right to have sex with 6 year olds? How can we allow children to decide to have an operation or not, go to boarding school, see a therapist?
The people throughout history that have always been threatened by those with a different opinion then their own have been close minded and ignorant and they usually started a war with them because they couldnt understand. People who are open minded are curious when they encounter another person with a different point of view. People like yourself run away and/or ridicule them out of fear.
So people who think differently than you, Anne are… “really, really fucked up?” How do you ever expect to learn something new if you only listen or talk to people who agree with you?
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They have human rights because they are little humans and should have protection from harm, fed etc..
But that doesn't square with Aspen Education's view of children. In their view, children should be starved and force marched in the desert like Sergey was. If you believe children should be protected from harm you'd be advocating shutting down any and all facilities that use methods unproven by the scientific method, which is all of them.
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DHS regulations for wilderness schools require all students to be offered no less than 3,000 calories of food per day. Blashchishen, as a newcomer, was offered just two, according to the affidavit. Hmmm...2 cups of food, heavy exercise.... Not enough food = neglect = violating DHS regulations = endangering the welfare of a minor! Do the math below Whooter!
The two cups that were offered was for one meal (not the entire day), you might have been confused there. Sergey wasn’t with Sagewalk the whole first day so probably ate breakfast with the transport guys prior to getting there.
There wasn’t any indication that Sergey was exercising at all. 1,200 to 1,500 calories isnt abusive if you are sitting around all day. The key is if he were getting enough fluids and electrolytes to detox his system. This is more important than food the first day or two, the kids typically have plenty of fat on them to burn off.
Refuting Whooter's (John David Reuben founder of STICC) claim "There wasn’t any indication that Sergey was exercising at all."
Timeline
*On Aug. 27, 2009:between 5:30 a.m. and 6:30 a.m., two “transporters” contracted by SageWalk woke Blashchishen at his home in Portland to take him to SageWalk, according to the affidavit.
*On Aug 27, 2009: Blashchishen arrived in Redmond around 9 a.m. and was later transported to a medical facility for blood tests and a drug screening, according to the affidavit.
*On Aug 27, 2009: Around 1 p.m., Blashchishen was blindfolded and put in a vehicle headed to the school’s base camp in Lake County.
*On Aug 28, 2009: 11:45 a.m., Blashchishen, the other students, and three staff members had breakfast and set off for a hike south of Hampton.
*On Aug 28, 2009: Just after 2 p.m., staff members called the school’s field supervisor to report that Blashchishen had vomited, but the hike continued.
*On Aug 28, 2009: Less than a half-hour later, about one mile from where the hike had begun, Blashchishen collapsed and lay on his back in the sun.
*On Aug 28, 2009: One staff member told Poré that by the time Blashchishen stopped breathing, he’d been thinking about calling for help, but had not. At 2:36 p.m., staff members called a school nurse, who then told another staff member to call 911. In the affidavit, Poré wrote that the call came much too late.
Refuting Whooter's (John David Reuben founder of STICC) claim "1,200 to 1,500 calories isnt abusive if you are sitting around all day. "
State of Oregon DHS regulations for wilderness schools require all students to be offered no less than 3,000 calories of food per day.
Whooter I'll be back to refute more of your drivel later.
Refute away.... thats what this forum is for......Thanks for the timeline, Joel. This helps to lay it out a little better.
My thinking at this point:
The day he arrived at base camp (27th) he didnt do any hiking. Just got blood tested, checked in and driven up to base camp to meet the other kids in the afternoon. I dont think a person needs 3,000 calories for that, although, who knows he might have had 4,000 calories because we dont know what he had for breakfast or later that day (after the 2 cups of lentils). I didnt see it listed.
The day he died he had breakfast at 11:45 am and then headed out for his hike and died before lunch time. So I dont see how calories were a factor here. With heat exhaustion I would be more interested in how much fluids Sergey was taking prior to the hike. I know from personal experience that once the body gets behind and dehydrated it is hard to hydrate the system especially while you are still hiking.
I would focus on the water intake.
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So people who think differently than you, Anne are… “really, really fucked up?” How do you ever expect to learn something new if you only listen or talk to people who agree with you?
No, that's not what I said or meant, but you knew that already. Twist away asshole, twist away.
People, like you, who don't believe that children have rights are really, really fucked up.
Well, they were right, the kids don’t have any rights. Maybe the staff called 911, in the past, only to find out the kid was faking and the program higher ups reamed their asses for wasting time and valuable resources on a non problem. So maybe they were afraid to call this time and waited too long.
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Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
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So people who think differently than you, Anne are… “really, really fucked up?” How do you ever expect to learn something new if you only listen or talk to people who agree with you?
No, that's not what I said or meant, but you knew that already. Twist away asshole, twist away.
People, like you, who don't believe that children have rights are really, really fucked up.
Well, they were right, the kids don’t have any rights. Maybe the staff called 911, in the past, only to find out the kid was faking and the program higher ups reamed their asses for wasting time and valuable resources on a non problem. So maybe they were afraid to call this time and waited too long.
Every time you dont understand something you accuse them of twisting. Go back and read the conversation, it hasnt changed. "I dont believe children have any rights".
and Yes, you have a hard time with people who dont agree with you or think the same way you do. You think I am really, really fucked up because I dont believe children have rights. You should find other people who think just like you do and speak to them and I bet you will feel much safer.
There are people that have totally different believes than me but I find their reasons interesting, not threatening. I dont think they are necessarily screwed up, but I am curious on why they think the way they do. I dont shun them.
If I speak with an atheist or someone who worships the sun or the moon... someone who goes to AA or believes in the orange papers or people who believe in corporal punishment ... I dont view them as messed up just because I dont understand their point of view. I ask questions and try to gain a better perspective myself on why they think that way. I feel bad that you have locked yourself away in a box.
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Whooter can you admit Sagewalk Wilderness School (Aspen Education Group wilderness program) made a serious mistake?
I think I made it clear several pages back that Sagewalk was responsible for this boy when he died. Sergey was in their care and therefore responsible for his death.
But that doesnt help the next kid going out to wilderness camp. We need to understand what caused Sergey to die. Why didnt all the kids die? Why just Sergey? What could have been done differently which would have saved his life and how do we change that and apply it to other wilderness camps?
These are the questions I am looking to find answers to from the investigation. Without them another kid could die tomorrow.
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Every time you dont understand something you accuse them of twisting.
No, I understand perfectly well. You twist everyone else's words to fit your agenda.
Yes, you have a hard time with people who dont agree with you or think the same way you do.
No, I don't.
You think I am really, really fucked up because I dont believe children have rights.
Yes, I do. I feel sorry for any kids that are under your control or that you have any influence over.
You should find other people who think just like you do and speak to them and I bet you will feel much safer.
It's not my safety I'm concerned with. It's the children's safety under the control of people that don't think they have any rights.
There are people that have totally different believes than me but I find their reasons interesting, not threatening. I dont think they are necessarily screwed up, but I am curious on why they think the way they do. I dont shun them.
Awww, are your feelings hurt? Am I shunning you?
If I speak with an atheist or someone who worships the sun or the moon... someone who goes to AA or believes in the orange papers or people who believe in corporal punishment ... I dont view them as messed up just because I dont understand their point of view. I ask questions and try to gain a better perspective myself on why they think that way. I feel bad that you have locked yourself away in a box.
Don't you worry 'bout me. I'm just fine, now that I've gotten away from people, like you, who believe that children don't have rights.
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"I dont believe children have any rights"
Do you stand by the above statement Whooter? I sincerely hope this isn't the case. [/i]
I stand by all my posts, Joel. I know that most of the posters here believe that kids should be able to fend for themselves, choose to go to school or not. make their own medical decisions, choose to put what ever they want into their bodies etc. (free range children!!)lol
But this has been voted on several times and the majority of the people in the US have decided that the parents will remain guardians of children until a certain age (18 - 21).
Thinking like this scares the bejesus out of people like Anne Bonney because it takes her out of her safety zone. She cannot relate to anyone who is totally outside her belief system and feels they are evil. Does this thinking scare you too Joel?
The relevant capacity qualifying children for possession of rights is that of the ability to choose. Children in general lack certain cognitive abilities—to acquire and to process information in an ordered fashion, to form consistent and stable beliefs, to appreciate the significance of options and their consequences. Children can be great risk takers. how do we determine when a child has attained the cognitive ability to vote? Would a 5 year old child be able to choose what type of cancer treatment to undertake? Would a 6 year old be able to weigh the risk of deciding not to go to school? Should we allow 12 year olds to have sex and get married? Drive a car? Go to therapy? Go to a wilderness program?
The united nations have developed a set of rights for children that they have defined for developing countries which match well with basic human rights which covers humans of any age (which ties into the whole abortion issue).
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The relevant capacity qualifying children for possession of rights is that of the ability to choose. Children in general lack certain cognitive abilities—to acquire and to process information in an ordered fashion, to form consistent and stable beliefs, to appreciate the significance of options and their consequences. Children can be great risk takers...
Just in case anyone thought Whooter grew a brain and could miraculously talk intelligently on child rights, he plagiarized a Stanford website. Of course, he didn't cite his source. He tried to pass it off as his own work. I believe Ajax13 hit this on the head when he called Whooter "stupid and lazy." Alas, it's true, Ajax13. Good point.
Link to Whooter's Plagiarization (http://http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/rights-children/)
I stand by all my posts, Joel.
Because they were written by academics who know what they're talking about. :rofl: Whooter, OTOH, is a run-of-the-mill dumbass.
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I know that most of the posters here believe that kids should be able to fend for themselves, choose to go to school or not. make their own medical decisions, choose to put what ever they want into their bodies etc. (free range children!!)lol
More assumptions.
But this has been voted on several times and the majority of the people in the US have decided that the parents will remain guardians of children until a certain age (18 - 21).
When did anyone say that they shouldn't?
Thinking like this scares the bejesus out of people like Anne Bonney because it takes her out of her safety zone. She cannot relate to anyone who is totally outside her belief system and feels they are evil. Does this thinking scare you too Joel?
Putting words in my mouth AGAIN. No, people who work in this industry and believe that children don't have any rights scare the living shit out of me, as they should any compassionate, thinking person.
Look Who....no matter how much belittling you do to me, no matter how many veiled insults you toss around, no matter how pompous and arrogant you are, no matter how much you twist my words, the bottom line is that when I said that we (in Straight) were told that we didn't have any rights, you responded by saying that Straight was right and that, indeed, children do not have rights. That's fucked up and considering there's a good possibility that you are working in some capacity for programs, that's goddamned frightening.
The relevant capacity qualifying children for possession of rights is that of the ability to choose. Children in general lack certain cognitive abilities—to acquire and to process information in an ordered fashion, to form consistent and stable beliefs, to appreciate the significance of options and their consequences. Children can be great risk takers. how do we determine when a child has attained the cognitive ability to vote? Would a 5 year old child be able to choose what type of cancer treatment to undertake? Would a 6 year old be able to weigh the risk of deciding not to go to school? Should we allow 12 year olds to have sex and get married? Drive a car? Go to therapy? Go to a wilderness program?
Now that's not what anyone suggested, but you knew that already. Again with the twisting and deflection.
The united nations have developed a set of rights for children that they have defined for developing countries which match well with basic human rights which covers humans of any age
The UN doesn't have any jurisdiction over children here, in camps.
Bottom line is that when I said that we (in Straight) were told that we didn't have any rights, you responded by saying that Straight was right and that, indeed, children do not have rights. That's fucked up and considering there's a good possibility that you are working in some capacity for programs, that's goddamned frightening.
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The UN doesn't have any jurisdiction over children here, in camps.
That was my point. But they did outline some basic rights for children which they are pushing to have developing nations adopt.
Bottom line is that when I said that we (in Straight) were told that we didn't have any rights, you responded by saying that Straight was right and that, indeed, children do not have rights. That's fucked up and considering there's a good possibility that you are working in some capacity for programs, that's goddamned frightening.
It has nothing to do with what I believe personally. People vote on this every year. People come up with bills to give children more say in their lives into the adult world and the voters decide which ,if any, that children should have. The laws are very clear. I dont believe kids should be exploited but I believe kids need to be protected from themselves and therefore should not given rights that they dont understand or able to rationalize.
The people in straight were right on this aspect. I don’t agree with the program they developed but they were right that the kids didn’t have any rights. I understand that this may be a sensitive subject for you… like discussing rape with a rape victim… so I wont bring it up as a topic with you which may help.
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It has nothing to do with what I believe personally. People vote on this every year. People come up with bills to give children more say in their lives into the adult world and the voters decide which ,if any, that children should have. The laws are very clear. I dont believe kids should be exploited but I believe kids need to be protected from themselves and therefore should not given rights that they dont understand or able to rationalize.
No one said that. It was your twisting of words. Again.
The people in straight were right on this aspect.
No, they weren't. We had rights. They weren't recognized by Straight, but we did have them.
I don’t agree with the program they developed but they were right that the kids didn’t have any rights.
No, they were wrong.
I understand that this may be a sensitive subject for you… like discussing rape with a rape victim… so I wont bring it up as a topic with you which may help.
Blow it out your ass. Like you're so concerned. ::)
Doesn't matter what you believe. Children have rights. Period. Just because their parents are the guardians, doesn't mean that they don't have rights. Why is this basic concept so difficult for you to accept?
Bottom line is that when I said that we (in Straight) were told that we didn't have any rights, you responded by saying that Straight was right and that, indeed, children do not have rights. That's fucked up and considering there's a good possibility that you are working in some capacity for programs, that's goddamned frightening.
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Doesn't matter what you believe. Children have rights. Period. Just because their parents are the guardians, doesn't mean that they don't have rights. Why is this basic concept so difficult for you to accept?
Sorry, Anne, its all in your mind. Kids in my state anyway don’t have any rights until the turn 18. So if you are referring to 18 year old kids then yes they have rights. If you are saying that younger kids can determine their own medical treatment, have sex with adults, drop out of school or choose what to put in their bodies then no I don’t believe they should have those rights.
They have basic human rights because they are little humans.
This opens up a huge discussion which many people have taken sides. If an adult is mentally ill and is described by doctors to be “child like”, does this mean he needs special protection? Should he be able to fend for himself and make medical decisions or does he lose some of his rights and turn them over to someone else?
So you see it goes way beyond just yours and my interpretation and our general positions on the topic and it is not as black and white as you may think.
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Doesn't matter what you believe. Children have rights. Period. Just because their parents are the guardians, doesn't mean that they don't have rights. Why is this basic concept so difficult for you to accept?
Sorry, Anne, its all in your mind. Kids in my state anyway don’t have any rights until the turn 18.
So you're free to beat and starve your child if you feel like it? That wouldn't violate their civil rights? Really?
So if you are referring to 18 year old kids then yes they have rights. If you are saying that younger kids can determine their own medical treatment, have sex with adults, drop out of school or choose what to put in their bodies then no I don’t believe they should have those rights.
Where did I say that?
They have basic human rights because they are little humans.
Yes, they do.
This opens up a huge discussion which many people have taken sides. If an adult is mentally ill and is described by doctors to be “child like”, does this mean he needs special protection? Should he be able to fend for himself and make medical decisions or does he lose some of his rights and turn them over to someone else?
So you see it goes way beyond just yours and my interpretation and our general positions on the topic and it is not as black and white as you may think.
Even mentally ill people have rights Whooter. They don't forfeit them because they're sick. Children have rights. They have the right not to be beaten. They have the right not to be starved. They have the right not to be hiked or restrained to death. Why is this concept so difficult for you to accept?
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The circumstances of this death mirror so many others.
Note that when it was clear Sergey was in real trouble, the staff's first call was NOT to 911, but to the program management. They did not have the child's best interests in mind, but the program's.
Despicable.
Interesting also that the sheriff is recommending charges agains the Aspen corporation, as well as the individual staff members.
My deepest sympathies to Sergey's family. :( I can't imagine this brings them any peace, but I hope they can find some consolation.
Auntie Em
Auntie Em is spot on. This kid was killed by Aspen Education the same way they have killed other children - through abuse and neglect. They abused him physically until he collapsed and neglected him while he died painfully from a totally preventable cause.
I agree with the sheriff in this case - Aspen employees should be charged with murder. Here's to hoping the DA has some balls.
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So you're free to beat and starve your child if you feel like it? That wouldn't violate their civil rights? Really?
I think you are starting to see the point. The kids are covered under basic human rights because they are humans. But they have no rights of their own based on their child status.
Even mentally ill people have rights Whooter. They don't forfeit them because they're sick. Children have rights. They have the right not to be beaten. They have the right not to be starved. They have the right not to be hiked or restrained to death. Why is this concept so difficult for you to accept?
Starving and abuse comes under basic human rights. This applies to all humans big and small.
Mentally ill people do have rights. But some need to have decisions made for them. Some mentally ill people have family members look after them and make medical decisions for them (and therefore lose their right to decide for themselves in this area) etc.
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It's so similar to most of the deaths caused by and in these places.
Aaron Bacon at Northstar - http://outside.away.com/magazine/1095/10f_deth.html (http://outside.away.com/magazine/1095/10f_deth.html)
Roberto Reyes at Thayer - http://www.caica.org/ROBERTO_REYES_deat ... atment.htm (http://www.caica.org/ROBERTO_REYES_death_in_treatment.htm)
Michelle Sutton at Summit Quest - http://www.teenadvocatesusa.org/Remembe ... utton.html (http://www.teenadvocatesusa.org/RememberingMichelleSutton.html)
Anthony Haynes at America’s Buffalo Soldiers Re-enactors Association - http://www.nospank.net/n-n79r.htm (http://www.nospank.net/n-n79r.htm)
Chase Moody, Jr. at On Track Wilderness Therapy - http://www.caica.org/DEATHS%20Chase%20Main.htm (http://www.caica.org/DEATHS%20Chase%20Main.htm)
Some restraint deaths....
http://www.statesman.com/specialreports ... cases.html (http://www.statesman.com/specialreports/content/specialreports/restraint/0518cases.html)
Chase Moody, 17 - Oct. 14, 2002 - On Track wilderness program
Maria Mendoza,14 - Oct. 12, 2002 - Krause Children's Center
Cedric Napoleon, 14 - March 7, 2002 - Mason Middle School
Latasha Bush, 15 - Feb. 14, 2002
(Died three days after incident) Daystar Residential Center
Stephanie Duffield, 16 - Feb. 11, 2001 - Shiloh Residential Treatment Center
Willie Wright, 14 - March 4, 2000 - Southwest Mental Health Center
Randy Steele, 9 - Feb. 6, 2000 - Laurel Ridge Hospital
Jerry McLaurin, 14 - Nov. 2, 1999 - New Horizons Ranch
Demetrius Jeffries, 17 - Aug. 26, 1997 - Crockett State School
Roshelle Clayborn, 16 - Aug. 18, 1997 - Laurel Ridge
Bobby Jo Randolph, 17 - Sept. 26, 1996 - Progressive Youth Center
Eric Roberts, 16 - Feb. 22, 1996 - Odyssey Harbor
Dawn Renay Perry, 16 - April 10, 1993 - Behavior Training Research Center
Anthony Green, 15 - May 12, 1991 - Brookhaven Youth Ranch
Diane Harris, 17 - April 11, 1990 - Seguin Community Living Center
Brandon Hadden, 18 - 1988 - Texas Neurological Rehab Center
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I think you are starting to see the point.
Fuck you.
The kids are covered under basic human rights because they are humans. But they have no rights of their own based on their child status.
Yep, so where did I say they had anything different?
Starving and abuse comes under basic human rights. This applies to all humans big and small.
Yes, it does. Which is why hiking or restraining them to death violates their rights.
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Starving and abuse comes under basic human rights. This applies to all humans big and small.
Yes, it does. Which is why hiking or restraining them to death violates their rights.
Exactly
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Starving and abuse comes under basic human rights. This applies to all humans big and small.
Yes, it does. Which is why hiking or restraining them to death violates their rights.
Exactly
So why were you saying that kids have no rights?
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Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
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Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
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Starving and abuse comes under basic human rights. This applies to all humans big and small.
Yes, it does. Which is why hiking or restraining them to death violates their rights.
Exactly
So why were you saying that kids have no rights?
They have basic human rights..just by the fact that they were born.... the right to not be abused and to be fed, the right to live. But no rights within their classification as children. Their parents decide for them until they become of age and can decide for themselves. Adults have rights and in America we have civil rights etc. and the United Nations has developed a basic list of rights for children, but they are not law.
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They have basic human rights..just by the fact that they were born.... the right to not be abused and to be fed, the right to live. But no rights within their classification as children.
And where did I say that they did?
Their parents decide for them until they become of age and can decide for themselves. Adults have rights and in America we have civil rights etc. and the United Nations has developed a basic list of rights for children, but they are not law.
By U.S. law, no one can starve, beat or hike to death a child. It's abuse plain and simple. Although I can understand why you wouldn't want them to have rights because that would interfere with the Program's ability to do what they do.
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Exactly, there are laws which protect adults from killing kids, abusing them etc.
But until they reach a certain age the kids need to rely on their parents. we just cant allow kids to decide their own medical needs or put whatever they want in their bodies, choose a religion etc. until they are old enough. Many states lowered the driving age to 16 and are now rethinking the whole thing and considering moving it up a year or two because too many kids are getting killed. The denial of rights are not designed to suppress children but to protect them. If you just open the flood gates and give kids rights more of them would die.
I know most people here would like to give kids the right to choose but you need to use your head a little and think of the consequences.
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Exactly, there are laws which protect adults from killing kids, abusing them etc.
But until they reach a certain age the kids need to rely on their parents. we just cant allow kids to decide their own medical needs or put whatever they want in their bodies, choose a religion etc. until they are old enough. Many states lowered the driving age to 16 and are now rethinking the whole thing and considering moving it up a year or two because too many kids are getting killed. The denial of rights are not designed to suppress children but to protect them. If you just open the flood gates and give kids rights more of them would die.
I have no idea what all that has to do with the fact that you were stating that kids don't have any rights.
I know most people here would like to give kids the right to choose but you need to use your head a little and think of the consequences.
Depends on what the situation is. IMO, they should be able to choose their own religion or lack thereof but that's not what we're talking about. The kids in programs have a right to expect not to be abused and to notify authorities if they feel they are. They have a right to proper nutrition and medical care at the facilities that are entrusted with their care, but they're obviously not getting it.
Spin all you want, the fact remains that children do indeed have rights as much as you'd like it not to be so.
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Exactly, there are laws which protect adults from killing kids, abusing them etc.
But until they reach a certain age the kids need to rely on their parents. we just cant allow kids to decide their own medical needs or put whatever they want in their bodies, choose a religion etc. until they are old enough. Many states lowered the driving age to 16 and are now rethinking the whole thing and considering moving it up a year or two because too many kids are getting killed. The denial of rights are not designed to suppress children but to protect them. If you just open the flood gates and give kids rights more of them would die.
I know most people here would like to give kids the right to choose but you need to use your head a little and think of the consequences.
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Whooter evading this question from page 14 of this thread:
Do you support children being escorted out of their home, without legal representation prior to, by strangers to a program? Please discuss.
I am not answering because you are not being clear, Joel. Legal representation for what? Indicate the specific law you are referring to. Is there a law against escorting kids in your state? I would be happy to discuss the laws with you or a new law you wish to pass.
Are kids allowed to be escorted to public school by strangers in your state? In our state kids are allowed to be escorted by strangers. In fact some kids are forced into these yellow vehicles , crying, in broad daylight (wearing 30 lb backpacks) by their parents and then they smile and head off to work without even knowing who is driving the vehicle.
I think we sometimes put too much faith in the system and should rethink what we do and for what reason. If kids were home-schooled there would be no need for escorts.
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Exactly, there are laws which protect adults from killing kids, abusing them etc.
But until they reach a certain age the kids need to rely on their parents. we just cant allow kids to decide their own medical needs or put whatever they want in their bodies, choose a religion etc. until they are old enough. Many states lowered the driving age to 16 and are now rethinking the whole thing and considering moving it up a year or two because too many kids are getting killed. The denial of rights are not designed to suppress children but to protect them. If you just open the flood gates and give kids rights more of them would die.
I have no idea what all that has to do with the fact that you were stating that kids don't have any rights.
I know most people here would like to give kids the right to choose but you need to use your head a little and think of the consequences.
Depends on what the situation is. IMO, they should be able to choose their own religion or lack thereof but that's not what we're talking about. The kids in programs have a right to expect not to be abused and to notify authorities if they feel they are. They have a right to proper nutrition and medical care at the facilities that are entrusted with their care, but they're obviously not getting it.
Spin all you want, the fact remains that children do indeed have rights as much as you'd like it not to be so.
I think you hit it on the nose when you said it depends on the situation. Kids have the right to apply for their license at age 16 in some states. But they dont have the right to vote or decide what to put in their bodies, medical decisions etc.
If a kid wants to become a buddist at age 6 and travel to a monastery I think the parents have a right to overrule them and say no. If the family is catholic then the parents have the right to take the child to church against their will.
So you can spin it anyway you want. If you want to say kids should be able to choose their own religion then thats fine. I just dont agree with you.
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I think you hit it on the nose when you said it depends on the situation. Kids have the right to apply for their license at age 16 in some states. But they dont have the right to vote or decide what to put in their bodies, medical decisions etc.
If a kid wants to become a buddist at age 6 and travel to a monastery I think the parents have a right to overrule them and say no. If the family is catholic then the parents have the right to take the child to church against their will.
So you can spin it anyway you want. If you want to say kids should be able to choose their own religion then thats fine. I just dont agree with you.
Oh for fuck's sake.... ::deadhorse::
Bottom line is that kids have rights. Basic human rights. You said they don't have rights and you were and are wrong. They have the right not to be abused. They have the right to proper nutrition and medical care and they are obviously not getting that in these programs, as evidenced by the deaths and the refusal of the programs to take ANY responsibility at all.
As much as it seems to grind your gears, children do indeed have rights. Which is what I was saying all along and you were arguing against. Why, I'll never know.
::deadhorse::
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I think you hit it on the nose when you said it depends on the situation. Kids have the right to apply for their license at age 16 in some states. But they dont have the right to vote or decide what to put in their bodies, medical decisions etc.
If a kid wants to become a buddist at age 6 and travel to a monastery I think the parents have a right to overrule them and say no. If the family is catholic then the parents have the right to take the child to church against their will.
So you can spin it anyway you want. If you want to say kids should be able to choose their own religion then thats fine. I just dont agree with you.
Oh for fuck's sake.... ::deadhorse::
Bottom line is that kids have rights. Basic human rights. You said they don't have rights and you were and are wrong. They have the right not to be abused. They have the right to proper nutrition and medical care and they are obviously not getting that in these programs, as evidenced by the deaths and the refusal of the programs to take ANY responsibility at all.
As much as it seems to grind your gears, children do indeed have rights. Which is what I was saying all along and you were arguing against. Why, I'll never know.
::deadhorse::
Basic human rights. I think we can agree here, finally. We are all born with basic rights because we are human. I think where we separate is in areas like medical care. If a child wants to go to a hospital it is up to an adult to decide that not a child. So yes the child is entitled to medical care but at the discretion of the adult in charge so therefore the child has no rights here.
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Whootie, you are one sick fuck. No wonder your kid killed himself rather than spend time with you.
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Whootie, you are one sick fuck. No wonder your kid killed himself rather than spend time with you.
Oh No!!! My kid killed himself? What a way to find out about it on fornits and all. I am sure you guys would figure out a way to blame a program for it. lol.
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So people who think differently than you, Anne are… “really, really fucked up?” How do you ever expect to learn something new if you only listen or talk to people who agree with you?
No, that's not what I said or meant, but you knew that already. Twist away asshole, twist away.
People, like you, who don't believe that children have rights are really, really fucked up.
Well, they were right, the kids don’t have any rights. Maybe the staff called 911, in the past, only to find out the kid was faking and the program higher ups reamed their asses for wasting time and valuable resources on a non problem. So maybe they were afraid to call this time and waited too long.
Every time you dont understand something you accuse them of twisting. Go back and read the conversation, it hasnt changed. "I dont believe children have any rights".
and Yes, you have a hard time with people who dont agree with you or think the same way you do. You think I am really, really fucked up because I dont believe children have rights. You should find other people who think just like you do and speak to them and I bet you will feel much safer.
There are people that have totally different believes than me but I find their reasons interesting, not threatening. I dont think they are necessarily screwed up, but I am curious on why they think the way they do. I dont shun them.
If I speak with an atheist or someone who worships the sun or the moon... someone who goes to AA or believes in the orange papers or people who believe in corporal punishment ... I dont view them as messed up just because I dont understand their point of view. I ask questions and try to gain a better perspective myself on why they think that way. I feel bad that you have locked yourself away in a box.
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:shamrock: :shamrock: :shamrock:
That is the best piece of advice your ever going to get, use it towards your advantage.
Danny
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Just stop it already. I'm not threatened you sanctimonious prick. There's really no point in discussing the care of children with someone who doesn't think they have any rights. I mean really....where do we go from there? You see them as undeserving of the rights that the rest of us enjoy so what am I supposed to say in response to that other than WOW, that's really, really fucked up? You're more concerned with protecting the programs and, I believe, your own income derived from them.
I don’t decide if children have rights or not, the law does. They have human rights because they are little humans and should have protection from harm, fed etc.. But they don’t (and in my opinion shouldn’t) have childrens rights….the right to free speech, to vote, choose their religion, medical decisions etc.
How can we give a child the right to free speech before they can talk? How can we allow children to just decide to stay home from school at age 7 and drink beer all day? How can we give 12 year olds the right to have sex with 6 year olds? How can we allow children to decide to have an operation or not, go to boarding school, see a therapist?
The people throughout history that have always been threatened by those with a different opinion then their own have been close minded and ignorant and they usually started a war with them because they couldnt understand. People who are open minded are curious when they encounter another person with a different point of view. People like yourself run away and/or ridicule them out of fear.
So people who think differently than you, Anne are… “really, really fucked up?” How do you ever expect to learn something new if you only listen or talk to people who agree with you?
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:shamrock: :shamrock:
You know everyone (parent) knows that children have no rights but were going to argue here about the morality of Whooter saying what we all know is the truth, every parent posting here has denied their children rights. As parents we all have because it was in their best interests, now going into law children have none really. Yes it does suck but it is a reality. Sergey died because his parents decided he needed to go somewhere else to be raised and the place he was sent to could give a fuck less about his well being. So Sergey did not have any rights at all from his parents to the Wilderness.
So WTF is all this bitching about, go grap his parents and beat the shit out of them for trampling all over their sons right to be a arrogant, belligerent, dope smoking, oxy cot using SOB, not going to school, staying out all night ass. Yeah they sent him to this wilderness camp and they killed him.
I say lets go after the parents, then the organizations.
Danny
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That is the best piece of advice your ever going to get, use it towards your advantage.
Danny
Excuse me? What?
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:shamrock: :shamrock:
You know everyone (parent) knows that children have no rights but were going to argue here about the morality of Whooter saying what we all know is the truth, every parent posting here has denied their children rights. As parents we all have because it was in their best interests, now going into law children have none really. Yes it does suck but it is a reality. Sergey died because his parents decided he needed to go somewhere else to be raised and the place he was sent to could give a fuck less about his well being. So Sergey did not have any rights at all from his parents to the Wilderness.
So WTF is all this bitching about, go grap his parents and beat the shit out of them for trampling all over their sons right to be a arrogant, belligerent, dope smoking, oxy cot using SOB, not going to school, staying out all night ass. Yeah they sent him to this wilderness camp and they killed him.
I say lets go after the parents, then the organizations.
Danny
Seriously, Danny, how can you even compare the two? Sure, some parents are evil SOBs, but a hell of a lot more are misguided as to the value of a "tough love" approach -- it's practically endemic in our culture at this point, and some are even misled into believing the marketing hype that these programs are actually "therapeutic" in nature.
Parents do have a personal responsibilities in raising their children, and generally make choices to the best of their abilities with the knowledge and wherewithal they have at hand.
Corporations, on the other hand, have a responsibility to the public to make good on their promises, that is, to deliver the goods or experience that they advertise, and to adhere to commonly accepted practices of safety and, in the case of behavioral health corporations, to First, Do No Harm.
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Plus... even from a strictly utilitarian point of view, which I don't necessarily advocate but am bringing up solely for the sheer sake of my orneriness, and barring any debate as to the ethics and culpability involved in said unfortunate decisions and the relative moral weight of personal vs. public responsibilities, wouldn't it make more sense to first go after those who are in a position to do the most harm to the most kids?
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This thread delivers some epic hilarity on soooooo many levels, and it fails.
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:shamrock: :shamrock:
You know everyone (parent) knows that children have no rights but were going to argue here about the morality of Whooter saying what we all know is the truth, every parent posting here has denied their children rights. As parents we all have because it was in their best interests, now going into law children have none really. Yes it does suck but it is a reality. Sergey died because his parents decided he needed to go somewhere else to be raised and the place he was sent to could give a fuck less about his well being. So Sergey did not have any rights at all from his parents to the Wilderness.
So WTF is all this bitching about, go grap his parents and beat the shit out of them for trampling all over their sons right to be a arrogant, belligerent, dope smoking, oxy cot using SOB, not going to school, staying out all night ass. Yeah they sent him to this wilderness camp and they killed him.
I say lets go after the parents, then the organizations.
Danny
Seriously, Danny, how can you even compare the two? Sure, some parents are evil SOBs, but a hell of a lot more are misguided as to the value of a "tough love" approach -- it's practically endemic in our culture at this point, and some are even misled into believing the marketing hype that these programs are actually "therapeutic" in nature.
Parents do have a personal responsibilities in raising their children, and generally make choices to the best of their abilities with the knowledge and wherewithal they have at hand.
Corporations, on the other hand, have a responsibility to the public to make good on their promises, that is, to deliver the goods or experience that they advertise, and to adhere to commonly accepted practices of safety and, in the case of behavioral health corporations, to First, Do No Harm.
:shamrock: :shamrock:
Ursus,
I'm beginning to wonder seriously if the message is getting out, got out, heard, excepted, ect.... concerning parents. Their still sending their kids at a brisk pace and show no signs of stopping. So I say lets take this to the parents in a big way and lay it at their feet first, hold them accountable for there children and their rights.
It is to easy and more comfortable to carry on about the programs/centers they seem to be detached from our inner physic-y, why can't we open up a forum that deals strictly with the outrageous neglect these parents are displaying.
This is not being said in a cavalier attitude, I mean it. We are not holding the parents feet to the fire here at all, is it not politically correct would it be a death sentence for fornits, why are we letting them slide.
Enough for now, I am being redundant.
Danny
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Plus... even from a strictly utilitarian point of view, which I don't necessarily advocate but am bringing up solely for the sheer sake of my orneriness, and barring any debate as to the ethics and culpability involved in said unfortunate decisions and the relative moral weight of personal vs. public responsibilities, wouldn't it make more sense to first go after those who are in a position to do the most harm to the most kids?
NO...NO....NO
I am tried of giving them a break, we have been doing this since these glorified prisons opened for business 40 years ago, how much more education does it take. Most of these parents are college educated and extremely successful ($ 56,000.00 a year) to afford the tuition.
Ursus..... your far to educated to continue to pander to such nonsense that these parents are being buffaloed. There not even trying, they are giving up and handing over the reins at the drop of a dime.
This story needs to be told and I am starting to see this may be my next rant on fornits.
Yes it is being fueled by past deeds done to me but I also don't see any change.
Ursus there are a lot of wicked SOB's out there for parents, I am also starting to consider parents that don't do there homework on these programs, part of that SOB list.
Danny
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Ursus spoke:
Corporations, on the other hand, have a responsibility to the public to make good on their promises, that is, to deliver the goods or experience that they advertise, and to adhere to commonly accepted practices of safety and, in the case of behavioral health corporations, to First, Do No Harm.
:shamrock: :shamrock:
Corporations have one job and one job only, to make money......Period!!!!!!
If we fail to understand that then we are living in a idealistic world and I feel for ya, bro.
How much more proof of that do you need, look at our world. So no I am not just going to
hold the corporations responsible, I am holding the parents first and foremost. Then maybe
we can start putting these corps. out of business.
I was thinking that Sergey parents should also be on the hook (liable) for his death. Who in 2010
lets there child get kidnapped in the early hours and taken somewhere blindfolded, no that is fucked.
As a parent you don't get to check out because you don't like what your child is doing, do a massive
inventory you may find out that you (parents) have a big part in this malady and seek help where you
are also involved in getting therapy.
Danny
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Ehh, to some extent I agree with you that parents should be liable for the abuse by proxy or murder by proxy of their children. However, going after the parents only allows the program to keep doing what they have been doing all along. At this point in time going after Sergy's mother is akin to kicking a blind person into oncoming traffic. She's going to suffer for this for the rest of her life, no point in throwing her in front of a bus when's already bleeding out.
-
Whooter must be getting major overtime pay--up day and night, day and night, posting a reply to damn near every last livin' comment made on this thread. Working his wittow fingers to the bone responding to a bunch of people he can't stand.
It's got such a desperate, panicky feel to it all. Imagine what the war room at Aspen Education Group must be like these days, trying to staunch the bleeding.
Auntie Em
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I think you hit it on the nose when you said it depends on the situation. Kids have the right to apply for their license at age 16 in some states. But they dont have the right to vote or decide what to put in their bodies, medical decisions etc.
If a kid wants to become a buddist at age 6 and travel to a monastery I think the parents have a right to overrule them and say no. If the family is catholic then the parents have the right to take the child to church against their will.
So you can spin it anyway you want. If you want to say kids should be able to choose their own religion then thats fine. I just dont agree with you.
Oh for fuck's sake.... ::deadhorse::
Bottom line is that kids have rights. Basic human rights. You said they don't have rights and you were and are wrong. They have the right not to be abused. They have the right to proper nutrition and medical care and they are obviously not getting that in these programs, as evidenced by the deaths and the refusal of the programs to take ANY responsibility at all.
As much as it seems to grind your gears, children do indeed have rights. Which is what I was saying all along and you were arguing against. Why, I'll never know.
::deadhorse::
:shamrock: :shamrock:
Ya know during WWII prisoners had rights but they were subjective to the prison guards how they were or not enforced. I would say on the Batan Death March where thousands died from starvation, beating, ect....there rights were abused. Ya know Uncle Sam made most of them go to the Philippines, they (soldiers) had no choice, even though they had rights.
What's my point.....Parents take the rights away from children everyday. They send their kids to these places knowing they will be subjected to a "Tuff Love" program, well right off the bat you know their rights will be violated.
Yes all children have the undying right to be treated like a human being and they are not. That is why children have rights that can be abused or taken away at any given time by their parents.
Danny
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Ehh, to some extent I agree with you that parents should be liable for the abuse by proxy or murder by proxy of their children. However, going after the parents only allows the program to keep doing what they have been doing all along. At this point in time going after Sergy's mother is akin to kicking a blind person into oncoming traffic. She's going to suffer for this for the rest of her life, no point in throwing her in front of a bus when's already bleeding out.
:shamrock: :shamrock:
Che it has to start with the parents, we have to stop saying ignorance is OK. It is not, in most states you can not say," Well Officer I didn't know you could not turn right on red", it is your responsibility to know the traffic laws of the county. Well I put even more emphasis on parents to absolutely know where there child is going, thoroughly check it out, visit whenever they want to see their child. My God the child is not in prison "per say". Why are we just singling out the facilities it should be a two prong attack.
I'll tell you what if they could somehow in a civil suit, maybe by another family member of Sergey, sue the parents for negligence and or ignorance well that would send a message. Maybe sue for failure to thoroughly investigate this wilderness program, recklessly handing over your child to others with no credentials to supervise said child, failure to live up to your parental duties insofar as telling the whole story concerning your sons dismal attitude that you were to blame for his problems due to your out of control problems.
Here is a scenario that sucks your parents had/have problems since before you were born, they could not parent a woodchuck so now that your older and your showing signs of bad parenting, they (parents) want to send you to a wilderness program, against your will. Your there 48 hrs and you wind up dead. Oh lets blame it all on the program, I'm not arguing that but charges better be filed against the parents also if neglect is found.
Danny
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It would be a huge uphill battle, Danny. One of the hurdles would be overcoming all the studies which show wilderness to be extremely effective. Some of which were funded by various departments of the US government and independent researchers and universities.
In order to show negligence one would have to prove that there was an abundance of information available to the parents showing a high risk of death for placement in a wilderness program which they ignored and there just isn’t any.
...
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It would be a huge uphill battle, Danny. One of the hurdles would be overcoming all the studies which show wilderness to be extremely effective. Some of which were funded by various departments of the US government and independent researchers and universities.
Citations, please? You seem to think that what qualifies for a "wilderness program" is same thing 'cross the board, whether you're talking about SageWalk or a boy scout or girl scout camp.
In order to show negligence one would have to prove that there was an abundance of information available to the parents showing a high risk of death for placement in a wilderness program which they ignored and there just isn’t any.
How many deaths is it gonna take, Whooter?
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Citations, please? You seem to think that what qualifies for a "wilderness program" is same thing 'cross the board, whether you're talking about SageWalk or a boy scout or girl scout camp.
Here is one partially funded by US
http://http://www.cnr.uidaho.edu/wrc/Publications/wrcreport9900.pdf
Here is an independent study overseen by the Western Institute Review board.
http://www.aspenranch.com/outcomes.html (http://www.aspenranch.com/outcomes.html)
How many deaths is it gonna take, Whooter?
Well I really dont know. I would say as long as the place is more safe than where they presently are then it would be a good move. How safe is public school or the child home environment? So I dont think counting the number of deaths is going to get us the answer we want.
...
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It would be a huge uphill battle, Danny. One of the hurdles would be overcoming all the studies which show wilderness to be extremely effective. Some of which were funded by various departments of the US government and independent researchers and universities.
In order to show negligence one would have to prove that there was an abundance of information available to the parents showing a high risk of death for placement in a wilderness program which they ignored and there just isn’t any.
...
:shamrock: :shamrock:
OK, then let's back up and just put the onus on the parents not to send there kids to these programs.
Danny
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It would be a huge uphill battle, Danny. One of the hurdles would be overcoming all the studies which show wilderness to be extremely effective. Some of which were funded by various departments of the US government and independent researchers and universities.
Citations, please? You seem to think that what qualifies for a "wilderness program" is same thing 'cross the board, whether you're talking about SageWalk or a boy scout or girl scout camp.
In order to show negligence one would have to prove that there was an abundance of information available to the parents showing a high risk of death for placement in a wilderness program which they ignored and there just isn’t any.
How many deaths is it gonna take, Whooter?
:shamrock: :shamrock:
This is my whole point you can't go after the programs till after the fact (death), you can't go after the parents not enough pre-meditation, well peeps WTF. What we just keep writing here till someone stumbles across fornits by chance.
No the biggest way to impact the deaths of these children in my opinion is to go after the parents. You exploit them the same way they are exploiting there children, get a article out there for the public to see showing parents are reckless in sending their children to these camps, programs..ect...by golly that will create a stir.
Danny
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Citations, please? You seem to think that what qualifies for a "wilderness program" is same thing 'cross the board, whether you're talking about SageWalk or a boy scout or girl scout camp.
Here is one partially funded by US
http://http://www.cnr.uidaho.edu/wrc/Publications/wrcreport9900.pdf
Here is an independent study overseen by the Western Institute Review board.
http://www.aspenranch.com/outcomes.html (http://www.aspenranch.com/outcomes.html)
How many deaths is it gonna take, Whooter?
Well I really dont know. I would say as long as the place is more safe than where they presently are then it would be a good move. How safe is public school or the child home environment? So I dont think counting the number of deaths is going to get us the answer we want.
...
:shamrock: :shamrock:
Whooter your argument for what is safer public schools, wilderness camps, residential schools ect..doesn't really work, does it. If you look into the ratio (which is sad when your discussing kids deaths) deaths per population of school, wilderness schools come in first for most kids dying. So yes public schools are safer, you can escape a public school, just walk away, kids do it all the time it is called skipping school. Can't do that in Montana when you have been blindfolded.
Danny
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Whooter your argument for what is safer public schools, wilderness camps, residential schools ect..doesn't really work, does it. If you look into the ratio (which is sad when your discussing kids deaths) deaths per population of school, wilderness schools come in first for most kids dying. So yes public schools are safer, you can escape a public school, just walk away, kids do it all the time it is called skipping school. Can't do that in Montana when you have been blindfolded.
I agree it is sad to discuss kids deaths this way. But I need to disagree with the rest…… if you look at the tens of thousands of kids who pass through programs each year and we see maybe one death and compare that to the thousands of deaths that occur each year outside of programs for just suicides and homicides alone. That doesn’t include the thousands of drug overdoses, accidents and the 120 people a day who die in car accidents which adds up to 43,000/year.
The safety in programs are orders of magnitude safer than being outside of them.
...
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Whooter your argument for what is safer public schools, wilderness camps, residential schools ect..doesn't really work, does it. If you look into the ratio (which is sad when your discussing kids deaths) deaths per population of school, wilderness schools come in first for most kids dying. So yes public schools are safer, you can escape a public school, just walk away, kids do it all the time it is called skipping school. Can't do that in Montana when you have been blindfolded.
I agree it is sad to discuss kids deaths this way. But I need to disagree with the rest…… if you look at the tens of thousands of kids who pass through programs each year and we see maybe one death and compare that to the thousands of deaths that occur each year outside of programs for just suicides and homicides alone. That doesn’t include the thousands of drug overdoses, accidents and the 120 people a day who die in car accidents which adds up to 43,000/year.
The safety in programs are orders of magnitude safer than being outside of them.
...
:shamrock: :shamrock:
I thought you were talking about apples to apples, I was talking about deaths that happen actually inside/outside the public school, like the deaths that happen at the wilderness camps.
Your example can also include the thousands of kids that come out of these programs along with the thousands of kids that come out of public schools. I am more interested in the deaths that happen at these places right now.
Danny
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I thought you were talking about apples to apples, I was talking about deaths that happen actually inside/outside the public school, like the deaths that happen at the wilderness camps.
Your example can also include the thousands of kids that come out of these programs along with the thousands of kids that come out of public schools. I am more interested in the deaths that happen at these places right now.
Danny
I know, I know, I agree with you, Danny, this is how I use to compare the two (in fact I started a matrix to capture these numbers this way) but I was told they are counted differently here on fornits. If you speak with Oscar and others here you will find out that if a child is on the way to the dentist and he/she dies in a car accident it would be considered a program death. If a child leaves a program and dies in a car accident or commits suicide years later it is considered a program death. So to compare apple to apples we need to look at public school deaths as even those kids who dropped out.
So people here don’t draw the line at being physically on the program premises at the time of death.
But I do feel if we created boundary conditions to just capture those deaths which occurred on site we would still see that programs are safer than public schools. But this is just an opinion on my part because there is not data that I am aware of to support this either way.
...
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I thought you were talking about apples to apples, I was talking about deaths that happen actually inside/outside the public school, like the deaths that happen at the wilderness camps.
Your example can also include the thousands of kids that come out of these programs along with the thousands of kids that come out of public schools. I am more interested in the deaths that happen at these places right now.
Danny
I know, I know, I agree with you, Danny, this is how I use to compare the two (in fact I started a matrix to capture these numbers this way) but I was told they are counted differently here on fornits. If you speak with Oscar and others here you will find out that if a child is on the way to the dentist and he/she dies in a car accident it would be considered a program death. If a child leaves a program and dies in a car accident or commits suicide years later it is considered a program death. So to compare apple to apples we need to look at public school deaths as even those kids who dropped out.
So people here don’t draw the line at being physically on the program premises at the time of death.
But I do feel if we created boundary conditions to just capture those deaths which occurred on site we would still see that programs are safer than public schools. But this is just an opinion on my part because there is not data that I am aware of to support this either way.
...
:shamrock: :shamrock:
I wonder if there is data or if we create data from a certain day like Monday moving forward. Do this for the next year, only deaths that occur on the premises or in the care of escorts, staff, school buses ect....That way we can start talking apples to apples. The per capita ratio between public schools and programs is huge so be careful on your estimate Whooter.
For all you folks who care about aftercare results, I do too I just want to focus on this aspect right now. Suicides are very alarming to me, I personally know of 8 brothers and sisters that have taken there lives since leaving Elan. That was within the first 10 years.
Danny
-
I thought you were talking about apples to apples, I was talking about deaths that happen actually inside/outside the public school, like the deaths that happen at the wilderness camps.
Your example can also include the thousands of kids that come out of these programs along with the thousands of kids that come out of public schools. I am more interested in the deaths that happen at these places right now.
Danny
I know, I know, I agree with you, Danny, this is how I use to compare the two (in fact I started a matrix to capture these numbers this way) but I was told they are counted differently here on fornits. If you speak with Oscar and others here you will find out that if a child is on the way to the dentist and he/she dies in a car accident it would be considered a program death. If a child leaves a program and dies in a car accident or commits suicide years later it is considered a program death. So to compare apple to apples we need to look at public school deaths as even those kids who dropped out.
So people here don’t draw the line at being physically on the program premises at the time of death.
But I do feel if we created boundary conditions to just capture those deaths which occurred on site we would still see that programs are safer than public schools. But this is just an opinion on my part because there is not data that I am aware of to support this either way.
:shamrock: :shamrock:
I wonder if there is data or if we create data from a certain day like Monday moving forward. Do this for the next year, only deaths that occur on the premises or in the care of escorts, staff, school buses ect....That way we can start talking apples to apples. The per capita ratio between public schools and programs is huge so be careful on your estimate Whooter.
For all you folks who care about aftercare results, I do too I just want to focus on this aspect right now. Suicides are very alarming to me, I personally know of 8 brothers and sisters that have taken there lives since leaving Elan. That was within the first 10 years.
Danny
Danny — According to Whooter's line of reasoning (not mine!), though I could be wrong, those eight suicides would probably have happened anyway.
Again, according to Whooter's reasoning (not mine!), Elan just bought those kids some more time, and in no way contributed to their subsequent suicides unless said deaths occurred right on the physical property. Even in such a case, Elan is probably only responsible for negligence in not having apprehended them in time.
He has said as much whenever the subject has come up, be it suicide or drug overdose, etc., occurring shortly after program.
My guess is that the psychic suffering and torment that one experiences as a direct consequence of having had brain salad surgery performed on one in the guise of "therapy" ... is simply not a reality that Whooter accepts.
-
Danny — According to Whooter's line of reasoning (not mine!), though I could be wrong, those eight suicides would probably have happened anyway.
Again, according to Whooter's reasoning (not mine!), Elan just bought those kids some more time, and in no way contributed to their subsequent suicides unless said deaths occurred right on the physical property. Even in such a case, Elan is probably only responsible for negligence in not having apprehended them in time.
He has said as much whenever the subject has come up, be it suicide or drug overdose, etc., occurring shortly after program.
My guess is that the psychic suffering that one experiences as a direct consequence of having had brain salad surgery performed on one in the guise of "therapy" ... is not a reality that Whooter accepts.
Hmmm…Ursus you are putting words in my mouth.
The problem with that is how do you tie the suicide back to the program without a note of some sort? How do we determine root cause? Couldn’t a person have just broken up with a boyfriend or has a history of depression? Why is the program deemed responsible and how do we determine this on a case by case basis. If we take this mindset then we need to consider that some of the suicides that occur” inside” the program could be due to events which occurred outside (or prior to) the program like receiving bad news from home or uncovering events from ones past during therapy. The logic needs to go both ways, if you choose to embrace this thinking.
If a guy is driving his car down the freeway and hits an embankment(and dies) several years after he leaves a program how can that be attributed to the program and considered a program death? I just don’t see the logic. If you are going to collect data you need to create boundary conditions and stick to them like inside or outside the program grounds otherwise it is all up to interpretation and has no basis for argument.
...
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Hmmm…Ursus you are putting words in my mouth.
Jes' trying to wrap my brain around where you're coming from, Whooter. Did I misunderstand you? Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong! ;)
-
I thought you were talking about apples to apples, I was talking about deaths that happen actually inside/outside the public school, like the deaths that happen at the wilderness camps.
Your example can also include the thousands of kids that come out of these programs along with the thousands of kids that come out of public schools. I am more interested in the deaths that happen at these places right now.
Danny
I know, I know, I agree with you, Danny, this is how I use to compare the two (in fact I started a matrix to capture these numbers this way) but I was told they are counted differently here on fornits. If you speak with Oscar and others here you will find out that if a child is on the way to the dentist and he/she dies in a car accident it would be considered a program death. If a child leaves a program and dies in a car accident or commits suicide years later it is considered a program death. So to compare apple to apples we need to look at public school deaths as even those kids who dropped out.
So people here don’t draw the line at being physically on the program premises at the time of death.
But I do feel if we created boundary conditions to just capture those deaths which occurred on site we would still see that programs are safer than public schools. But this is just an opinion on my part because there is not data that I am aware of to support this either way.
:shamrock: :shamrock:
I wonder if there is data or if we create data from a certain day like Monday moving forward. Do this for the next year, only deaths that occur on the premises or in the care of escorts, staff, school buses ect....That way we can start talking apples to apples. The per capita ratio between public schools and programs is huge so be careful on your estimate Whooter.
For all you folks who care about aftercare results, I do too I just want to focus on this aspect right now. Suicides are very alarming to me, I personally know of 8 brothers and sisters that have taken there lives since leaving Elan. That was within the first 10 years.
Danny
Danny — According to Whooter's line of reasoning (not mine!), though I could be wrong, those eight suicides would probably have happened anyway.
Again, according to Whooter's reasoning (not mine!), Elan just bought those kids some more time, and in no way contributed to their subsequent suicides unless said deaths occurred right on the physical property. Even in such a case, Elan is probably only responsible for negligence in not having apprehended them in time.
He has said as much whenever the subject has come up, be it suicide or drug overdose, etc., occurring shortly after program.
My guess is that the psychic suffering and torment that one experiences as a direct consequence of having had brain salad surgery performed on one in the guise of "therapy" ... is simply not a reality that Whooter accepts.
:shamrock: :shamrock: :shamrock:
Now Ursus I did not get that from what he is saying, your just antagonizing for some reason I don't fully understand yet. I don't think I need to...LOL.
One thing I will comment on though is the amount of attempted suicides some of these residents had already had prior to coming to Elan. There were many there arms, throats and chests proved that. We had one resident that had plunged a knife into his chest to pierce his heart, he missed but it left a awful scar and the list goes on.
We had so many it saddens me to type this now, this is one of the big reasons I left Elan I couldn't handle the malingering one could do to their body. Did many of these residents succeed, I'm sure they did. Did Elan help to stem this inevitable process of self destruction, NO...could they have, NO (They weren't equipped) did they do more damage then good, probably. I say that without much conviction because the system had failed them much earlier.
Ursus this is a nasty business were talking about where children have real problems with very few avenues to get help, if your parents aren't being parents 24/7 you will probably die...just from consequences. I hate this all the way down to my bones but if the parents don't do there job how do we expect everyone else to do theirs.
Danny
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Now Ursus I did not get that from what he is saying, your just antagonizing for some reason I don't fully understand yet. I don't think I need to...LOL.
No, Danny, I was not "just antagonizing for some reason." I really was ... paraphrasing in an attempt to clarify and/or understand. Just like I said.
Despite my invitation, Whooter has not deigned to refute my portrayal. Yet. Ah, but the night is still young! ;D
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Ya know during WWII prisoners had rights but they were subjective to the prison guards how they were or not enforced. I would say on the Batan Death March where thousands died from starvation, beating, ect....there rights were abused. Ya know Uncle Sam made most of them go to the Philippines, they (soldiers) had no choice, even though they had rights.
What's my point.....Parents take the rights away from children everyday. They send their kids to these places knowing they will be subjected to a "Tuff Love" program, well right off the bat you know their rights will be violated.
Yes all children have the undying right to be treated like a human being and they are not. That is why children have rights that can be abused or taken away at any given time by their parents.
Danny
Yes, people (including kids) have their rights violated. That was my point. That kids do indeed have rights. Whooter said they didn't. He was/is wrong.
And I'm still waiting for a response to this....
That is the best piece of advice your ever going to get, use it towards your advantage.
Danny
Excuse me? What?
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Citations, please? You seem to think that what qualifies for a "wilderness program" is same thing 'cross the board, whether you're talking about SageWalk or a boy scout or girl scout camp.
Here is one partially funded by US
http://http://www.cnr.uidaho.edu/wrc/Publications/wrcreport9900.pdf
Why not mention the other funding sources?
from the report....
FUNDING SOURCES
Bitterroot National Forest (To operate Wilderness Discovery, 1994, 1995)
Colville National Forest (To operate Wilderness Discovery, 1993, 1994, 1995)
Mt. Hood National Forest (To operate Wilderness Discovery, 1994, 1995)
US Department of Labor – Atlanta Job Corps Center (To operate Wilderness Discovery, 1995)
McIntyre-Stennis Program of Forestry Research at US Land Grant Universities, 1994-1999
(support for graduate student research assistants)
US Dept. of Agriculture – Forest Service – Div. of Human Resources/Job Corps, 1994-1996 (to
evaluate Wilderness Discovery)
Aldo Leopold Wilderness Research Institute, 1995-1997
Outdoor Behavioral Healthcare Industry Council (OBHIC) – Participating Members, 1998;
to collect and analyze field data, 1998-1999; and establish and Outdoor Behavioral Healthcare
Research cooperative (OBHRC) at UI, 1999-2001
Cooley Associates and Catherine Freer Wilderness Therapy, Albany, OR
School of Urban and Wilderness Survival (SUWS), Shoshone, ID
Anasazi Wilderness Therapy, Mesa, AZ
Aspen Achievement Academy, Loa, UT
Redcliff Ascent, Springville, UT
Ascent (CEDU Family Services), Naples, ID
University of Idaho Wilderness Research Center, 1994-2000 (research direction and operational
support)
WILD Foundation, 1994-1999 (technic al and in kind support, travel)
Wilderness Transitions Inc., 1995-1998 (in-kind support, research and data collection expenses)
Here is an independent study overseen by the Western Institute Review board.
http://www.aspenranch.com/outcomes.html (http://www.aspenranch.com/outcomes.html)
Any link to the actual "study"?...What I'm seeing is Aspen's webpage talking about a study. A study about wilderness programs paid for by a wilderness program.