Fornits
General Interest => Open Free for All => Topic started by: DannyB II on March 21, 2010, 11:51:00 PM
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What is fascinating me now is this TC and AA Vine. 1st question..Who started this connection/introduced AA. 2nd question..Why they (originators) felt it would work. 3rd question..Why it went so wrong.
This is a partial post but I believe dives right into the point folks have been making and what I would like to delve into more.
http://www.national-drug-rehab-treatment-centers.org/ (http://www.national-drug-rehab-treatment-centers.org/)
Since the 1970's we have experienced a much greater need for drug rehab and addiction treatment in the United States and Canada. This increase in demand for drug rehab and/or alcohol and drug treatment centers comes from an addicted public that dramatically increased in numbers, and continues to do so with the introduction of more pharmaceuticals into the general marketplace. But the more important cause for the rapid rise in the establishment of drug rehab and addiction treatment centers evolved due to the money that was invested into the drug rehab and treatment industry.
In the beginning, most of this money came from health insurance companies that had added a provision for drug rehab or addiction treatment in an overwhelming majority of their health plans. This started with Nixon's War on Drugs and was enhanced by Reagon's War on Drugs and the passing of laws regarding drugs in the workplace.
The problem lies in the fact that drug rehab and addiction treatment centers were established well before there was any workable science to deliver a technology that would handle addiction successfully - and the reputation of addiction treatment has suffered because of the need to quickly establish drug rehab centers without doing the due diligence necessary to find out what clinical actions work and what doesn't. Once these drug rehab and addiction treatment facilities were opened and "serving" the public, they have continued to do their same ineffective treatment without questioning their methods or outcomes. Insurance companies brought in Managed Care consultants to limit the amount they were spending on inpatient and residential drug rehabs or addiction treatment centers, so many of the beginning centers were not able to survive a fee-for-service atmosphere. Most business would work on creating a lasting and real product in order to say competetive, but in drug rehab and addiction treatment, most have yet to question their basic tenants, but rest comfortably on the idea that drugs are becoming more addicting and addiction is a disease of relapse.
:shamrock:
There is that disease word. Thanks to are wonderful Insurance Industry they needed to keep there cost down so you can forget about any quality care. Counseling that Femanon and Anne talked about they would like to see forget it. Ship them off to TC's or whatever.
:shamrock:
Rather than question their approach to treatment, these ineffective drug rehab and addiction treatment centers have redefined the "disease" and the behaviors of the clients, but most of this name changing actually justified the facts that addicts were not getting well. Because it has been labeled a "disease" that is supposedly chronic... meaning it last forever, and progressive, meaning that even if you stop taking drugs, the "disease" progresses with time. Just imagine being a young adult and being caught up in a drug addiction that is ruling your life, and you finally go to addiction treatment, with the idea that you can now begin to be sane and productive, but they sell you the "disease model of addiction".
:shamrock:
This is exactly why I do not like the classification disease, there is no accountability. I agree with you Femanon. AA idea is to explain that you will never be able to drink normal. Now I believe there is some truth to that because I have tried after not drinking for a while and I ended up drinking abusively again. No is this pre-conditioned I'm not sure but my guess would be yes.
:shamrock:
Drug addicts are already depressed about their plight, but they are holding on to some hope that they can turn their lives around. Then they are told by authorities who are supposed to know addiction, that they have a chronic and progressive disease. It is no wonder that many drug addicts go through treatment counting the days until they can go to their dealer for more of the same. Our counselors have talked to numerous drug addicts that have related this thinking when they were attending drug rehab.
:shamrock:
Hmmmmm.....Sad.
:shamrock:
These early drug rehab centers were basing their treatment on the twelve steps of Alcoholics Anonymous, which was a marginally successful approach to helping alcoholics recover from their addictions, but was not intended to be an institutionalized form of therapy within a drug rehab center, and by altering its basic tenets, these centers did not deliver the results that one would anticipate if they were seeking a cure to their addiction. For about ten years, this didn’t seem to be a problem as drug rehabilitation was finding clients and making money. This pattern declined in the late 80s and into the 90s and tough drug laws resulted in a skyrocketing jail and prison population full of drug-related offenders.
:shamrock:
This is what I have been trying to say although not intellectually so I could be understood. These TC's, Straight and others changed the basic tenants/principles of AA and tried to teach principles that were based on a suggestive idea not forced.
:shamrock:
In time, the insurance companies and other financial sources became disaffected with these poor results and measures were taken that limited the amount any individual insurance company would pay for addiction treatment and the number of treatment episodes anyone could have within a given year and/or the life of the policy. Most of these drug addiction treatment centers had less than 10% of their graduates leaving their care and being free of their addiction. This meant that over 90% returned to their destructive behavior and, it was just a matter of a short while before these graduates were looking for help again. It wasn’t uncommon to find addicted persons that had attended these types of treatment multiple times, with many going through more than five episodes of treatment and using up all of the money that family could dedicate to their recovery.
:shamrock:
Under Bill Clinton I believe this changed.
:shamrock:
The pendulum has recently begun to swing back in the other direction, though, and legislative and advocacy efforts are once again turning toward drug rehab centers and addiction treatment centers as opposed to incarceration. The money to pay for the drug rehab centers is still being figured out, as insurance companies don't offer as much coverage and there is only a relatively small amount of government dollars available for addiction treatment, especially quality drug rehab centers that get results.
:shamrock:
As usual.....
:shamrock:
Danny
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The Disease Theory Evolution......How it is destroying AA in my opinion.
http://www.national-drug-rehab-treatment-centers.org/ (http://www.national-drug-rehab-treatment-centers.org/)
Wilson eventually came under the care of Dr. William Silkworth, a doctor who specialised in the treatment of alcoholics based on a disease concept of alcoholism.
:shamrock: :shamrock:
http://www.search.com/reference/William ... _Silkworth (http://www.search.com/reference/William_Duncan_Silkworth)
William Duncan Silkworth
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
William Duncan Silkworth, M.D., (1873?-1951) was an American medical doctor and specialist in the treatment of alcoholism. He was Director of the Charles B. Towns Hospital for Drug and Alcohol Addictions in New York City in the 1930s, during which time Bill Wilson, a future co-founder of the mutual-help movement Alcoholics Anonymous (A.A.), was admitted on three separate occasions for alcoholism. Silkworth had a profound influence on Wilson and encouraged him to realize that alcoholism was more than just an issue of moral weakness. He introduced Wilson to the idea that alcoholism had a pathological, disease-like basis.
William Silkworth wrote the chapter titled "The Doctor's Opinion" in the book Alcoholics Anonymous
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http://www.search.com/reference/Disease ... alcoholism (http://www.search.com/reference/Disease_theory_of_alcoholism)
Disease theory of alcoholism
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Disease theory of alcoholism states that alcoholism is a disease process. The disease theory is generally accepted by the medical community[citation needed]. Outside the medical community, there is considerable debate over whether or not alcoholism should be considered a disease. Proponents argue that genetic, neurological and behavioral studies distinguish those with alcohol dependence from problem drinkers. Opponents cite the inability to pin down the behavioral issues to a physical cause as a reason for avoiding classification.
Most medical clinicians consider alcoholism a disease influenced by genetic, psychological, and social factors and characterized by compulsive drinking with impaired control and preoccupation with and use of alcohol despite adverse consequences[citation needed]. However, the disease theory is still controversial among the public at large. US Supreme Court decisions, books, and scientific journal articles demonstrate this lack of consensus.[1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9]
Contents
* 1 Theory
o 1.1 Controversy
* 2 History
o 2.1 Current acceptance
* 3 Medical evidence
o 3.1 Supporting evidence
o 3.2 Dissenting evidence
* 4 References
* 5 External links
The term "disease" refers to a disorder of structure or function. The term can refer to a physical disorder, such as diabetes, or to a mental disorder, such as schizophrenia. Diseases can be short-lived, such as the common cold, or life long, as in sickle cell anemia.
In the case of alcoholism, research has demonstrated both genetic and environmental contributors to the development of a condition that carries significant physical morbidity. Such factors as a typical course and well-described epidemiology (the incidence and prevalence of the condition) also contribute to the establishment of a disease entity.
Some argue that the disease concept is promoted by those with a vested interest: If alcoholism is not considered a disease, third-party payments to physicians and hospitals for its treatment might cease.
The disease theory of alcoholism was first proposed in the early 1800s by Dr. Benjamin Rush of Philadelphia, and independently by Thomas Trotter[10]. The modern theory of alcoholism as a disease was put forth by E. Morton Jellinek. Controversy over Jellinek's claim that he received a doctoral degree [11] has contributed to criticisms of the disease theory.
The first challenge to the disease model came with the publication of D.L. Davies' (1962)[12] follow up of seven alcohol abusers which found that some of them were able to revert to "controlled drinking." Although the data has subsequently been challenged, it caused a storm at the time by asking how someone suffering a disease which reputedly leads to uncontrollable drinking can manage to drink controllably. Subsequent studies also found similar results[citation needed].
Between 1980 and 1991, medical organizations worked together to establish policies regarding their positions on the disease theory. These policies were developed in 1987 in part due to the lack of parity between addictive disease and other chronic disease states with respect to third-party reimbursement. The policies of the American Medical Association, formed through consensus of the federation of state and specialty medical societies within their House of Delegates, state, in part: "The AMA endorses the proposition that drug dependencies, including alcoholism, are diseases and that their treatment is a legitimate part of medical practice." In 1991, The AMA further endorsed the dual classification of alcoholism by the International Classification of Diseases under both psychiatric and medical sections. In 1980, the AMA's Council on Scientific Affairs (now the Council on Science and Public Health) noted that "alcoholism is in and of itself a disabling and handicapping condition."
In a 1988 US Supreme Court decision on whether alcohol dependence is a condition for which the US Veterans Administration should provide benefits,[13] Justice Byron R. White's statement echoed the District of Columbia Circuit's finding that "a substantial body of medical literature that even contests the proposition that alcoholism is a disease, much less that it is a disease for which the victim bears no responsibility." He also wrote, "Indeed, even among many who consider alcoholism a "disease" to which its victims are genetically predisposed, the consumption of alcohol is not regarded as wholly involuntary."[13]
The American Society of Addiction Medicine and the American Medical Association both maintain extensive policy regarding alcoholism. The American Psychiatric Association recognizes the existence of "alcoholism" as the equivalent of alcohol dependence. The American Hospital Association, the American Public Health Association, the National Association of Social Workers, and the American College of Physicians classify "alcoholism" as a disease.
Programs such as Rational Recovery reject the "disease model" and Stanton Peele has devoted a significant portion of his web site to disputing many assertions made by many in the alcoholism treatment community including the AMA, APA, and NIAAA.[14]
The US Social Security Administration no longer makes disability payments to individuals for whom substance use disorders are a material aspect of their disability.
Disease theory of alcoholism was referenced in the South Park episode "Bloody Mary", with the character Stan Marsh saying "No, cancer is a disease. My dad needs to drink less." The episode had a lot of controversy, however that was all regarding the episode's portrayal of the Virgin Mary.
The results of medical research have been used both in support of and against the disease theory of alcoholism.
Medication has been developed to assist in the treatment of alcoholism, although research has not yet demonstrated long-term efficacy.[citation needed]
Research[9] shows that frequency and quantity of alcohol use are not related to the presence of the condition; that is, people can drink a great deal without necessarily being alcoholic and alcoholics may drink minimally and/or infrequently.
Research[12] has shown that some recovered alcohol abusers can resume "controlled drinking." However, the data in this study has been challenged[citation needed].
1. ^ Maltzman I Is alcoholism a disease? A critical review of a controversy Integr Physiol Behav Sci 1991 Jul-Sep;26(3):200-10
2. ^ Levy MS The disease controversy and psychotherapy with alcoholics J Psychoactive Drugs 1992 Jul-Sep;24(3):251-6
3. ^ Schaler, Jeffrey A. Thinking About Drinking: The Power of Self-Fulfilling Prophecies The International Journal of Drug Policy Volume 7, No. 3, 1996, pp. 187-192
4. ^ Thomas R. Hobbs Managing alcoholism as a disease Physician’s News Digest, February 1998
5. ^ Roger E. Meyer The disease called addiction: emerging evidence in a 200-year debate
6. ^ Gina Kolata Alcoholic genes or misbehavior? The Supreme Court is due to decide on whether alcoholism is a disease or a character flaw Psychology Today May 1988
7. ^ Nackerud, Larry The disease model of alcoholism: a Kuhnian paradigm Journal of Sociology & Social Welfare 6/1/2002
8. ^ Doug Kelley Understanding the Nature of Alcoholism November 2001
9. ^ a b Article in the Journal of the American Medical Association, by the Joint Committee of the National Council on Alcoholism and Drug Dependence and the American Society of Addiction Medicine. 1992.
10. ^ Trotter T An Essay, Medical, Philosophical, and Chemical, on Drunkenness and Its Effects on the Human Body (1804) Tavistock Classics in the History of Psychiatry Edited by Porter R. London, Routledge, 1988
11. ^ Jellinek's Phantom Doctorate
12. ^ a b Davies, D.L. (1962). Normal drinking in recovered alcohol addicts. Quarterly Journal of Studies on Alcohol 23, 94 - 104.
13. ^ a b TRAYNOR v. TURNAGE, 485 U.S. 535 (1988)
14. ^ The Stanton Peele Addiction Website
* American Public Health Association - APHA
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Thought this was interesting....
http://www.soberforever.net/hazelden-tr ... -rates.cfm (http://www.soberforever.net/hazelden-treatment-center-and-aa-success-rates.cfm)
Hazelden Treatment Center and AA Statistics
Hazelden Treatment Center and AA Statistics
Belief versus Fact: What is the truth about AA’s success rate?
In the process of living we all develop opinions about everything with which we come in contact. It is an integral part of our being. That is to say that we “can’t not” have an opinion. Opinions are interesting things because opinions can be developed through empirical data or by way of tradition with no supporting evidence, or from misinformation, or out of thin air. Regardless of the basis for any one particular opinion, what each individual believes, like everything else in life, is merely a choice. Beliefs, however, are not the same as opinions. Opinions arrived at by way of empirical data tend to be factual. Thus, belief is not required to hold a proven opinion. To believe in something is to accept something as truth in the absence of proof, even if it isn't true. For example, there exists today an organization that goes by the name "The Flat Earth Society." (To get to their homepage go to www.alaska.net (http://www.alaska.net))
Alcoholism Treatment Alternative
drug rehab class
The people that belong to and/or support The Flat Earth Society are not absurd, nor are they stupid, simply because they have chosen to believe that the Earth is flat, not round. Members of the Flat Earth Society, to believe as they do, must ignore numerous facts that refute the most fundamental basis for their belief (e.g. time zones, the Prime Meridian and the International Date Line, airplane flights from Moscow, Russia to Seattle, Washington over the North Pole, etc.) The point is that there are many instances where people accept certain ideas as fact in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
Many Fundamentalist Christians believe that God made the world approximately 4000 years ago putting Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. Before that time, they contend, there was nothing except God, Himself. In support of their beliefs, they argue that the dinosaurs are mythical creatures that never actually existed. They contend that the skeletons of these creatures which have been found on all seven continents are a world-wide hoax created by the "evil-one" to lure people away from God’s truth in the Book of Genesis.
In the extreme (and in some not so extreme) these belief systems that fly in the face of common sense and scientific evidence are horribly destructive. Consider the belief system of Heaven's Gate. When the Hale-Bop Comet came close to the earth most of the members of Heaven's Gate, 39 out of 41, committed suicide. I, of course, cannot know for sure whether or not the souls of the members got picked up by the comet. But what I am sure of is this: the members of Heaven's Gate must have believed that their souls would be picked up by the extraterrestrials who, according to the beliefs of Heaven's Gate, were accompanying the Hale-Bop comet.
With that brief explanation of belief systems, you may be able to take an introspective look at your beliefs. You may say, "I still believe that alcoholism...is a disease..." And if you do think that, you would be absolutely correct. Specifically, you did not say "alcoholism is a disease;" you said that you "believe" alcoholism is a disease. Your statement is correct because you are stating a fact about yourself and not about whether alcoholism is or is not a disease. You, of course, are free to believe whatever pleases you as an individual. And, like the Flat Earth Society, and others, you have chosen a belief which is contrary to the empirical evidence and scientific method. To wit, you have chosen to ignore the facts in favor of a belief that better fits your personal wants or needs. A personal choice such as this needs no justification unless it in some way affects another negatively. By you and others around you buying into the absurd notion that drinking or drugging is a disease, you are constantly reinforcing the idea in your mind that you have this disease for which you are no longer responsible. If you have been "brainwashed" to the extent that the "disease of alcoholism" is firmly implanted in your psyche, then your chances of moderating or stopping drinking or drugging forever is minimal. Conversely, if you become willing to take full responsibility for your behavior, then your chances of stopping forever go up dramatically.
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:shamrock:
Helps to explain the long term affects of drugs.....Cravings..ect.
1. Biophysical Drug Rehab
Biophysical treatment methods get the residue of the drugs out of the body. Through research, it has been found that the human body will store a residue, called a metabolite of the drug, in the dormant fat tissue for 5 – 7 years after drug use/abuse. When a person stops using drugs, this residue of the fat-soluble drugs begins to be released back into the blood stream which causes cravings, anxiety, and depression in the addict who may be trying desperately to curtail his use.
This can go on for literally years and is the major reason why many programs claim that addiction is a life-long disease. As these toxins are released back into the blood stream, it causes the struggling drug affected person to experience some of the original drug effect and causes depression and mental health problems that lead many to see advice from psychiatrist who will then prescribe a psychiatric medication, which leads to more toxins in the body to add to the emotional roller coaster that most recovering people experience daily.
Drugs like heroin, oxycontin, cocaine, and meth are more powerful than the natural chemicals the brain produces to be happy, so these "flash-back" type experiences overpower ones natural chemistry. It takes at least a year for this natural chemical balance to be restored and most "recovering" addicts cannot take the anxiety and depression they are causing for any length of time without relapsing back to their drug of choice or drug of availability.
The Biophysical method uses a purification technology in conjunction with vitamins and minerals to release these toxic residues stored in fat tissue, back into the blood stream where they are then forced out of the body, leaving the person free of this contamination and free of the cravings, anxiety or depression caused by the side effects of these drugs. This enables a return to a natural chemical balance, which is why these types of programs don't subscribe to the expression, "Once and Addict, Always and Addict". This type of drug rehabilitation center uses a social educational model to restore ethics and build life-skills to ensure their graduates are drug free and productive members of society. Drug Rehab Programs with this method are having a success rate of over 78%. This is why Biophysical drug treatment centers are the most highly recommended and fastest growing form of treatment.
:shamrock:
Yeah this worked in Elan just great, one problem we were beat into submission so we couldn't ask for our M&M's.
2. Drug Rehab using behavior modification
Behavioral Modification gained popularity in the 1970's and is based on the Pavlovian idea that man is an animal and changes actions based on stimulus and response. It was popular during these early years for teachers to have bags of M&M's to reward children for proper responses. In drug treatment, the Therapeutic Community model was developed, which uses ridicule and shamming tactics rather than M&M's in an attempt to change thinking and behavior. These program are popular with criminal justice populations and have demonstrated less than a 10% long-term success rate. As long as the person is in the original group and has gained some privileges for being a "perfect client", the compliance is high, but for those that need support to make changes, it can be devastating and leads to many clients exiting the programs early to maintain some personal power and dignity.
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This was posted to get some intelligent feedback is this all you have. Seriously....
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This was posted to get some intelligent feedback is this all you have. Seriously....
how about this
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=29840&p=359542#p359542 (http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=29840&p=359542#p359542) :notworthy: :notworthy:
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This was posted to get some intelligent feedback is this all you have. Seriously....
Ok...seriously. It all went so wrong because it's a friggin religious cult. Ya can't really get anything 'right' out of something that starts off so wrong.
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It's very very uncool in my sight to encourage somebody to kill him or her-self. That's not a joking matter.
Personally, in my opinion AA is not a cult, but does have some cult-like attributes. Any group can become abusive to its members, and AA is no exception. But I see no charismatic authority figure for whom the group as a whole is a mirror of sorts, no coercive persuasion techniques being employed, and I also fail to see how your average AA member is being exploited in any way. Now, I have seen AA fanatics who probably had some unhealthy and abusive relationships with their sponsors, but on the whole if somebody asked me if AA were a cult, I'd say no. But I'd also caution that person to never let somebody else define reality for them, and to always reserve the right to have an independent opinion. Again, any group can turn abusive. That's my two cents' on the is-it-or-isn't-it-a-cult debate with respect to AA. I do not see how AA is an intrinsically abusive group, or series of situational traps. That's how I look at cults and other abusive groups: they are a sustained series of situational traps.
Here's a genius video on cults and thought reform/mind control. Check this out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnNSe5XYp6E (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnNSe5XYp6E)
What follows is a pertinent extract (pp. 20-21) from a book entitled Bounded Choice: True Believers and Charismatic Cults, by Janja Lalich. I recommend Bounded Choice for anyone seriously interested in understanding the psychological dynamics of the cult phenomenon.
http://books.google.com/books?id=p2Udi3 ... q=&f=false (http://books.google.com/books?id=p2Udi37GljsC&printsec=frontcover&dq=%22bounded+choice%22#v=onepage&q=&f=false)
Individuals in a cult context are constrained not only by a bounded reality-one product of the self-sealing system-but also by bounded choice. This occurs when the individual reaches what Lifton described as a state of personal closure. ("Closure" in this sense does not mean completion, as it is sometimes used, but a turning inward and refusal to look at other ideas, belifs, or options.) I suggest that a state of person closure should be considered the individualized version of the larger self-sealing system. Thus, as a person identifies and unites with the bounded reality of the group and its belief system, becoming a devotee by making that charismatic commitment to the self-sealing worldview, another process begins to take place. That is, individual perspective and personal decision making become limited and constrained, and that restritction comes as much from within as from without. In the context of closure and constraint, choices may exist, but they are severely limited. In such situations, the person can be described as being in a state of bounded choice.
http://www.icsahome.com/infoserv_bookre ... choice.htm (http://www.icsahome.com/infoserv_bookreviews/bkrev_boundedchoice.htm)
The interaction between the individual and the charismatic system is the key to understanding bounded choice theory. The believer responds to the intellectual and emotional pull of the group with commitment that is renewed through ongoing interaction, and in the process develops a new self. The leader’s vision of the path to salvation has transformational power.
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Personally, in my opinion AA is not a cult, but does have some cult-like attributes. Any group can become abusive to its members, and AA is no exception. But I see no charismatic authority figure for whom the group as a whole is a mirror of sorts, no coercive persuasion techniques being employed, and I also fail to see how your average AA member is being exploited in any way. Now, I have seen AA fanatics who probably had some unhealthy and abusive relationships with their sponsors, but on the whole if somebody asked me if AA were a cult, I'd say no. But I'd also caution that person to never let somebody else define reality for them, and to always reserve the right to have an independent opinion. Again, any group can turn abusive. That's my two cents' on the is-it-or-isn't-it-a-cult debate with respect to AA.
Here's a genius video on cults and thought reform/mind control. Check this out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnNSe5XYp6E (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnNSe5XYp6E)
What follows is a pertinent extract (pp. 20-21) from a book entitled Bounded Choice: True Believers and Charismatic Cults, by Janja Lalich. I recommend Bounded Choice for anyone seriously interested in understanding the psychological dynamics of the cult phenomenon.
http://books.google.com/books?id=p2Udi3 ... q=&f=false (http://books.google.com/books?id=p2Udi37GljsC&printsec=frontcover&dq=%22bounded+choice%22#v=onepage&q=&f=false)
Individuals in a cult context are constrained not only by a bounded reality-one product of the self-sealing system-but also by bounded choice. This occurs when the individual reaches what Lifton described as a state of personal closure. ("Closure" in this sense does not mean completion, as it is sometimes used, but a turning inward and refusal to look at other ideas, belifs, or options.) I suggest that a state of person closure should be considered the individualized version of the larger self-sealing system. Thus, as a person identifies and unites with the bounded reality of the group and its belief system, becoming a devotee by making that charismatic commitment to the self-sealing worldview, another process begins to take place. That is, individual perspective and personal decision making become limited and constrained, and that restritction comes as much from within as from without. In the context of closure and constraint, choices may exist, but they are severely limited. In such situations, the person can be described as being in a state of bounded choice.
http://www.icsahome.com/infoserv_bookre ... choice.htm (http://www.icsahome.com/infoserv_bookreviews/bkrev_boundedchoice.htm)
The interaction between the individual and the charismatic system is the key to understanding bounded choice theory. The believer responds to the intellectual and emotional pull of the group with commitment that is renewed through ongoing interaction, and in the process develops a new self. The leader’s vision of the path to salvation has transformational power.
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Personally, in my opinion AA is not a cult, but does have some cult-like attributes. Any group can become abusive to its members, and AA is no exception. But I see no charismatic authority figure for whom the group as a whole is a mirror of sorts, no coercive persuasion techniques being employed, and I also fail to see how your average AA member is being exploited in any way. Now, I have seen AA fanatics who probably had some unhealthy and dependent relationships with their sponsors, but on the whole if somebody asked me if AA were a cult, I'd say no. But I'd also caution that person to never let somebody else define reality for them, and to always reserve the right to have an independent opinion. Again, any group can turn abusive. That's my two cents' on the is-it-or-isn't-it-a-cult debate with respect to AA.
Here's a genius video on cults and thought reform/mind control. Check this out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnNSe5XYp6E (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnNSe5XYp6E)
What follows is a pertinent extract (pp. 20-21) from a book entitled Bounded Choice: True Believers and Charismatic Cults, by Janja Lalich. I recommend Bounded Choice for anyone seriously interested in understanding the psychological dynamics of the cult phenomenon.
http://books.google.com/books?id=p2Udi3 ... q=&f=false (http://books.google.com/books?id=p2Udi37GljsC&printsec=frontcover&dq=%22bounded+choice%22#v=onepage&q=&f=false)
Individuals in a cult context are constrained not only by a bounded reality-one product of the self-sealing system-but also by bounded choice. This occurs when the individual reaches what Lifton described as a state of personal closure. ("Closure" in this sense does not mean completion, as it is sometimes used, but a turning inward and refusal to look at other ideas, belifs, or options.) I suggest that a state of person closure should be considered the individualized version of the larger self-sealing system. Thus, as a person identifies and unites with the bounded reality of the group and its belief system, becoming a devotee by making that charismatic commitment to the self-sealing worldview, another process begins to take place. That is, individual perspective and personal decision making become limited and constrained, and that restritction comes as much from within as from without. In the context of closure and constraint, choices may exist, but they are severely limited. In such situations, the person can be described as being in a state of bounded choice.
http://www.icsahome.com/infoserv_bookre ... choice.htm (http://www.icsahome.com/infoserv_bookreviews/bkrev_boundedchoice.htm)
The interaction between the individual and the charismatic system is the key to understanding bounded choice theory. The believer responds to the intellectual and emotional pull of the group with commitment that is renewed through ongoing interaction, and in the process develops a new self. The leader’s vision of the path to salvation has transformational power.
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No it actually didn't Bonnie. Bill did not like the Oxford Group for that very reason (neither did Bob). That's why they specified a God of your understanding when they wrote the book of AA. Now what started it out in 1935, is not what your seeing today world wide.
Nope. He knew that the god issue would turn most people off so he made it 'god of your understanding' but that does not mean it's not based on a cult, walks like a cult, quacks like a cult.
Oh and how was the boat this weekend. What kind of boat do you y'all have, I happen to own a Chris-Craft Corsair 36 it is docked on Lake Lanier in Georgia. Actually gettin ready to load it up and bring it to Oklahoma City and put it on Lake Hafner for the summer. Wind Surfing is something I will be attempting for the 2nd time in my life this year. Nice to hear from you.
Danny
35' Webber's Cove. Took it over near MacDill and watched the airshow. The Angels flew right over top of us.
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It's very very uncool in my sight to encourage somebody to kill him or her-self. That's not a joking matter.
Personally, in my opinion AA is not a cult, but does have some cult-like attributes. Any group can become abusive to its members, and AA is no exception. But I see no charismatic authority figure for whom the group as a whole is a mirror of sorts, no coercive persuasion techniques being employed, and I also fail to see how your average AA member is being exploited in any way. Now, I have seen AA fanatics who probably had some unhealthy and abusive relationships with their sponsors, but on the whole if somebody asked me if AA were a cult, I'd say no. But I'd also caution that person to never let somebody else define reality for them, and to always reserve the right to have an independent opinion. Again, any group can turn abusive. That's my two cents' on the is-it-or-isn't-it-a-cult debate with respect to AA. I do not see how AA is an intrinsically abusive group, or series of situational traps. That's how I look at cults and other abusive groups: they are a sustained series of situational traps.
:shamrock: :shamrock:
I don't either see AA as a cult yet as you said walking into some of there meeting you would think that Hitler was somewhere in the room. The propaganda can become excessive even for a 22 year member like me. There are many AA fanatics, just like there are many Democratic and Republican fanatics, Walmart fanatics ect....we as a nation have a tendency of suffering from OCD (especially me...lol). We like what we like and that is it.
AA groups have been known to be very abusive in their selective agendas they want to preach. I am very careful as to where I go to meeting and how I go about my principles that I learned in AA.
:shamrock: :shamrock:
Here's a genius video on cults and thought reform/mind control. Check this out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnNSe5XYp6E (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnNSe5XYp6E)
:shamrock:
Excellent!!!!!!
:shamrock:
What follows is a pertinent extract (pp. 20-21) from a book entitled Bounded Choice: True Believers and Charismatic Cults, by Janja Lalich. I recommend Bounded Choice for anyone seriously interested in understanding the psychological dynamics of the cult phenomenon.
:shamrock:
I'll look into that.
:shamrock:
http://books.google.com/books?id=p2Udi3 ... q=&f=false (http://books.google.com/books?id=p2Udi37GljsC&printsec=frontcover&dq=%22bounded+choice%22#v=onepage&q=&f=false)
Individuals in a cult context are constrained not only by a bounded reality-one product of the self-sealing system-but also by bounded choice. This occurs when the individual reaches what Lifton described as a state of personal closure. ("Closure" in this sense does not mean completion, as it is sometimes used, but a turning inward and refusal to look at other ideas, belifs, or options.) I suggest that a state of person closure should be considered the individualized version of the larger self-sealing system. Thus, as a person identifies and unites with the bounded reality of the group and its belief system, becoming a devotee by making that charismatic commitment to the self-sealing worldview, another process begins to take place. That is, individual perspective and personal decision making become limited and constrained, and that restritction comes as much from within as from without. In the context of closure and constraint, choices may exist, but they are severely limited. In such situations, the person can be described as being in a state of bounded choice.
:shamrock: :shamrock:
I have always wondered what is the pre-condition to have all these systems fall in place. To have full "closure".
Why..????
:shamrock: :shamrock:
http://www.icsahome.com/infoserv_bookre ... choice.htm (http://www.icsahome.com/infoserv_bookreviews/bkrev_boundedchoice.htm)
The interaction between the individual and the charismatic system is the key to understanding bounded choice theory. The believer responds to the intellectual and emotional pull of the group with commitment that is renewed through ongoing interaction, and in the process develops a new self. The leader’s vision of the path to salvation has transformational power.
:shamrock: :shamrock:
I find all of this amazing on a altruistic level, where as the person injures himself for the group. Ironically dying in the end with the group.
:shamrock: :shamrock:
Danny
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It's very very uncool in my sight to encourage somebody to kill him or her-self. That's not a joking matter.
Personally, in my opinion AA is not a cult, but does have some cult-like attributes. Any group can become abusive to its members, and AA is no exception. But I see no charismatic authority figure for whom the group as a whole is a mirror of sorts, no coercive persuasion techniques being employed, and I also fail to see how your average AA member is being exploited in any way. Now, I have seen AA fanatics who probably had some unhealthy and abusive relationships with their sponsors, but on the whole if somebody asked me if AA were a cult, I'd say no. But I'd also caution that person to never let somebody else define reality for them, and to always reserve the right to have an independent opinion. Again, any group can turn abusive. That's my two cents' on the is-it-or-isn't-it-a-cult debate with respect to AA. I do not see how AA is an intrinsically abusive group, or series of situational traps. That's how I look at cults and other abusive groups: they are a sustained series of situational traps.
:shamrock: :shamrock:
I don't either see AA as a cult yet as you said walking into some of there meeting you would think that Hitler was somewhere in the room. The propaganda can become excessive even for a 22 year member like me. There are many AA fanatics, just like there are many Democratic and Republican fanatics, Walmart fanatics ect....we as a nation have a tendency of suffering from OCD (especially me...lol). We like what we like and that is it.
AA groups have been known to be very abusive in their selective agendas they want to preach. I am very careful as to where I go to meeting and how I go about my principles that I learned in AA.
:shamrock: :shamrock:
Here's a genius video on cults and thought reform/mind control. Check this out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnNSe5XYp6E (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnNSe5XYp6E)
:shamrock:
Excellent!!!!!!
:shamrock:
What follows is a pertinent extract (pp. 20-21) from a book entitled Bounded Choice: True Believers and Charismatic Cults, by Janja Lalich. I recommend Bounded Choice for anyone seriously interested in understanding the psychological dynamics of the cult phenomenon.
:shamrock:
I'll look into that.
:shamrock:
http://books.google.com/books?id=p2Udi3 ... q=&f=false (http://books.google.com/books?id=p2Udi37GljsC&printsec=frontcover&dq=%22bounded+choice%22#v=onepage&q=&f=false)
Individuals in a cult context are constrained not only by a bounded reality-one product of the self-sealing system-but also by bounded choice. This occurs when the individual reaches what Lifton described as a state of personal closure. ("Closure" in this sense does not mean completion, as it is sometimes used, but a turning inward and refusal to look at other ideas, belifs, or options.) I suggest that a state of person closure should be considered the individualized version of the larger self-sealing system. Thus, as a person identifies and unites with the bounded reality of the group and its belief system, becoming a devotee by making that charismatic commitment to the self-sealing worldview, another process begins to take place. That is, individual perspective and personal decision making become limited and constrained, and that restritction comes as much from within as from without. In the context of closure and constraint, choices may exist, but they are severely limited. In such situations, the person can be described as being in a state of bounded choice.
:shamrock: :shamrock:
I have always wondered what is the pre-condition to have all these systems fall in place. To have full "closure".
Why..????
:shamrock: :shamrock:
http://www.icsahome.com/infoserv_bookre ... choice.htm (http://www.icsahome.com/infoserv_bookreviews/bkrev_boundedchoice.htm)
The interaction between the individual and the charismatic system is the key to understanding bounded choice theory. The believer responds to the intellectual and emotional pull of the group with commitment that is renewed through ongoing interaction, and in the process develops a new self. The leader’s vision of the path to salvation has transformational power.
:shamrock: :shamrock:
I find all of this amazing on a altruistic level, where as the person injures himself for the group. Ironically dying in the end with the group.
:shamrock: :shamrock:
Danny
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No it actually didn't Bonnie. Bill did not like the Oxford Group for that very reason (neither did Bob). That's why they specified a God of your understanding when they wrote the book of AA.
Nope, he just toned down the references to god to make AA more palatable to the non-believers. Bill figured once he had 'em hooked, then he'd work on getting god into their lives.
Oh and how was the boat this weekend. What kind of boat do you y'all have, I happen to own a Chris-Craft Corsair 36 it is docked on Lake Lanier in Georgia. Actually gettin ready to load it up and bring it to Oklahoma City and put it on Lake Hafner for the summer. Wind Surfing is something I will be attempting for the 2nd time in my life this year. Nice to hear from you.
Danny
It was great. Went across the bay and saw the MacDill airshow. The Angels flew right over our heads. We've got a 35' Webber's Cove....lobsterboat hull with a custom house.
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I have a rubber ducky with no bathtub, my nautical life sucks shit.
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No it actually didn't Bonnie. Bill did not like the Oxford Group for that very reason (neither did Bob). That's why they specified a God of your understanding when they wrote the book of AA.
Nope, he just toned down the references to god to make AA more palatable to the non-believers. Bill figured once he had 'em hooked, then he'd work on getting god into their lives.
Oh and how was the boat this weekend. What kind of boat do you y'all have, I happen to own a Chris-Craft Corsair 36 it is docked on Lake Lanier in Georgia. Actually gettin ready to load it up and bring it to Oklahoma City and put it on Lake Hafner for the summer. Wind Surfing is something I will be attempting for the 2nd time in my life this year. Nice to hear from you.
Danny
It was great. Went across the bay and saw the MacDill airshow. The Angels flew right over our heads. We've got a 35' Webber's Cove....lobsterboat hull with a custom house.
:shamrock: :shamrock:
I don't think Bill was a big pusher of religion personally, if you read his history he never went to church hardly and if he did it was for a reason. Now I won't argue that folks in AA have pushed the religion agenda to the max, because I know folks who do it. You keep referring to Bill as he did this and did that, no I think your staff and Directors did that for him, Bill died a long time ago, Bob even earlier.
Danny
Beautiful boat ya got there, I once had a Grady White I think it may look similar. Anyway I also love the Blue Angels. Great weekend. Love that part of Florida.
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I have a rubber ducky with no bathtub, my nautical life sucks shit.
:shamrock: :shamrock:
Well get yourself stateside and will take a run down the coast to Florida and Anne and yourself can school me on the in and outs of AA, over oysters, lobster and steaks. I may even throw in a bottle of wine from my Uncle's cellar.
Danny
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Felice:
Since you are involved in that "free for all group" with the 12 Twelve steppers arguing about working with others the AA way, I have attached a Big Book Study guide that I use with sponsees when teaching them the 12th Step - passing the message to alcoholics who still suffer.
It has the quotes from the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous quoted right in it for each point, so you won't need a Big Book to look the stuff up.
Hope this helps.
:shamrock: :shamrock:
Here you go again staying up all night with your buddy Art, must be touching to be buddies, with so much in common.
Danny
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For Those of you that think I am an illusion of Felice's mind, think again! I do indeed exist and have been straight and sober in AA for 28 years.
I do want to correct one thing that was stated, however. I did not say that neither of you were working your program. I stated that neither of you were working THE program. The one outlined in the first 164 pages of the Big Book. That is the only program of AA I know works ("thoroughly followed our path"). In that program, we DO NOT take each other's inventories and work under HOW, honesty, openness and willingness. Some of the points you both make are valid and I will store them away for future reference. Some of them are not AA principles and I choose to not internalize them or comment on them. The program is one of attraction, rather than promotion. Those that come, even if court/system ordered, if they like what we have to offer, will stay past the required time. Others may need to find another path or try their own way (how does that work for You?) a little longer to find the answer. But, at least staying straight and sober, gives time to clear the mind and gives one choice. When I was using, I felt I had no choice. Today I have choice. 'Nuf said for now.
Lil Bitz in Wausa, WI :peace:
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Eliscu.....the boat in that trolling picture looks like mine!!
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But, at least staying straight and sober, gives time to clear the mind and gives one choice.
Lil Bitz in Wausa, WI :peace:
Now that I can understand and respect.
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Nice boat!
Hopefully one day I will get down to see it and you. :rasta:
Until then...back to the wormhole.
Anytime, we'd love to have you! :seg2:
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Oh my, AA is so scary. Let's all go whine about it on the internet, that's the ticket!!
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...
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....
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....
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....
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Someone who does not have the experience, seeks out someone who does to find the answer. That is the wisdom of life. If my experience, strength and hope can help someone to stay straight and sober today, then so be it, no matter who the messenger is. If what you do works for you, Danny, more kudos to your HP. Always remember that you do not do this alone. But to force those beliefs onto someone else through promotion is not HP's will, but self-will and ego. I vote for attraction and chose to follow those who walk the walk and not just talk the talk. Intolerance of anything or anyone without experential knowledge and full understanding is foolish and unwise. And since I am not the HP anymore, I do not have full understanding. There are many paths to recovery. Each must find their own path. The one that worked for me was the first 164 pages of the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous. The only program of AA is outlined in those pages. If you are thoroughly following those pages, you are working AA. Otherwise, you have found another path that seems to work for you and I am happy that you have found that path. It is not wise to "rain on someone else's parade" and judge them as wrong. We do not have the right to judge others. That is only the purview of the HP.
Thank you for another day of being a part of my sobriety each of you.
Lil Bitz :peace:
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No I have a appointment at your house for my weekly blow*$# thou, remember.
Those are your friends troll.
Danny
P.S. Please re-post this so you don't forget.
Danny you are mad because Felice has more sex than you. You should go back to sliding your tongue between mark babitz asshole.
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....
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I am about as far away as you can get from selling AA to anybody, I don't sell it, promote it and I am not aware even if I attract it nor do I care.
Danny go bad mouth Sharon McCarthy more on your facebook page. Danny gets confronted by Sharon McCarthy on his facebook page about talking bad about Felice's kids. He does not have any class.
:jawdrop:
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apologize on facebook
then abuses women on fornits
apologize on facebook
then attacks people on fornits
apologize on facebook
denigrates 28 year sobriety soul its not his way of the AA and his version of the 12 steps; your thinkin than your drinkin
apologize on facebook
thinks up more lies for fornits
apologize on facebook
tries to HIJACK other peoples post on fornits, no shit asshole
doesn't apologize on facebook cause he doesn't think they found out about that one yet.
lies on facebook
apologize of facebook
apologize on fornits oops that hasn't happened yet
apologize on facebook
attack people on facebook
apologize on facebook
tries to recruit more pro Elan apologists on facebook for Elan
apologize on facebook
looks at huge bulbous nose on face caused by excessive drinking and lying
apologize on facebook
realize nose seems to grow longer each day
apologize on facebook
abuse women on fornits after apologizing on facebook
apologize on facebook
thinks he is Harry Kranick, who the hell is that
apologize on facebook
forgets what site he is on mistakenly starts to apologize on fornits but deletes post
apologize on facebook
remembers Kruglik said to apologize on facebook
apologize on facebook
elan instructions are apologize on facebook to maintain image of turncoat Ass director of Elan
apologize on facebook
thinks of how to apologize without admitting that he was Ass director at Elan
apologize on facebook
hates to apologize about anything but Kruglik says he will let him suck his cock if he does
runs to facebook to apologize
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No I have a appointment at your house for my weekly blow*$# thou, remember.
Those are your friends troll.
Danny
P.S. Please re-post this so you don't forget.
Danny you are mad because Felice has more sex than you. You should go back to sliding your tongue between mark babitz asshole.
:fuckoff: :fuckoff: I have to ask myself were any of us took the time to shit on you,? I can only imagine we worked you over good,Heck you have only been here a couple of weeks and do nothing but tag around behind us. I guess you must want to be one of us, I cant imagine anything else. You constantly make an ass out of yourself,talking to people you dont even know.Going on threads you have no interest or business. I ask whats your point ?? I am sure you will come back something real witty.Just so you know we dont care about insults. :fuckoff: :fuckoff: :fuckoff: :fuckoff:
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Mark you are another product of ELAN with diluted thinking, no charisma and no social skills. We accept a little fag troll like yourself because this is the only place you can fit in. BTW I did sleep with your mother last night and she called me "big poppy!" Now fuck off!
:twofinger: :twofinger: :twofinger: :twofinger: :twofinger: :twofinger: :twofinger: :twofinger: :twofinger: :twofinger: :twofinger: :twofinger: :twofinger: :twofinger: :twofinger: :twofinger: :twofinger:
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Mark you are another product of ELAN with diluted thinking, no charisma and no social skills. We accept a little fag troll like yourself because this is the only place you can fit in. BTW I did sleep with your mother last night and she called me "big poppy!" Now fuck off!
:twofinger: :twofinger: :twofinger: :twofinger: :twofinger: :twofinger: :twofinger: :twofinger: :twofinger: :twofinger: :twofinger: :twofinger: :twofinger: :twofinger: :twofinger: :twofinger: :twofinger:
There are those words of wit I was speaking of, You can always count on a Troll. By the way Troll do have a real name or are scared to print it.?? When were in Elan or weren't you there.?? Are you getting the attention your seeking, ?? What are you going to do when they quit bashing Danny.?? Will you leave ?? Probably not, were would you go,??? And once again ,were did any of us ever take time out to take a shit on you,?? Oh I got past the your mother thing when I was about 12 or 13 years old, but if it works in your act please leave it in.After all if you subtract your bull-shit out of our post there wouldnt be anything to read.So keep up the good work, and one day you and your brother will find someone to take both of you clowns seriously,. But until then feel free to practice on us we like the bull-shit.It just makes our point clearer to all.And you guys get to work in the element your both most comfortable.Thanks for your response you have lived up too all our expectations. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :soapbox: :jamin: :rasta: :rasta: :peace: :peace: ::unhappy:: ::unhappy::
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Mark Babitz's mother who called me "big poppy."
(http://http://s153139690.websitehome.co.uk/dilligaf.jpg)
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Yes, why do you have something stupid say about Jews?? I think all the comedians and nazi took care of all the jokes, but they forgot you.I was raised Jewish and Catholic, in Skokie Ill, and moved to Winnetka just before high school, junior year.I went to Catholic grade school and synagogue on Saturdays for Hebrew School. Do you believe in God ?? or is that a stretch,?. Hope I answered your question, hang on here comes the Jewish persecution, When I was in Elan they took Jews, they kind of favored them since toucher was in their genes . They held up longer than the Blacks or the Gentiles, they were weak ,As far as the other free religions AKA Cults they tend to their own, Elan was not needed.they had their own hells to deal with. Dam did I take your whole joke pattern,?? Sorry, you take a stab at it, Oh great Norm Crosby. :rocker: :rocker: :jamin: :rasta: :rasta: :rasta: :rasta: :rasta: :rasta:
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Mark Babitz's mother who called me "big poppy."
(http://http://s153139690.websitehome.co.uk/dilligaf.jpg)
Why did you take the post down about asking me if I was Jewish, That is a bad place to go, You start involving alot of people then. I forgot to quote you but I wont make that mistake again :fuckoff: :fuckoff: :fuckoff: :fuckoff: .
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How many gold teeth do you have? :twofinger: :twofinger: :twofinger:
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Do you eat pork? :twofinger: :twofinger: :twofinger:
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Have you seen the newest Jewish-American Princess horror movie? It's called, "Debbie Does Dishes!" :twofinger: :twofinger: :twofinger:
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Why don't Jewish mothers drink? Alcohol interferes with their suffering! :twofinger: :twofinger: :twofinger:
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Eliscu.....the boat in that trolling picture looks like mine!!
:shamrock: :shamrock:
It is a Grady White, I said the other day it does look like your boat. Is your husband originally from the Nor East.
Danny
How do you know what my boat looks like?
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Jeesh if I had only known that the only thing I had to do was be one of Felice friends and have a pair of tits then Anne Bonnie would respect what of been saying all along, my God I would have had a genitalia transplant long ago then go thru the "Hell" I went through.
Amazing Grace......Hell I really don't care I'm just glad Anne stopped being stubborn, hey if it took another woman great but the message was received.
Read for comprehension, little one. I said from the very start that I have no problems with people using AA as a social support group. What I have a problem with is the big book, 12 & 12, sponsorship and the rest of the dogma.
It also helps that Felice's friend wasn't a complete jerk in how she expressed herself, as you were/are.
Hey Lil Bitz, I'll save you the effort. I don't really care what you and Felice discussed, what you read of me here or any opinion you may have. If you associate with Felice that pretty much sums it up for me.
I have 22 yrs- you have 28 in the big picture in Life it really doesn't mean much, what it does mean is that I've been doing what I should be for 22 yrs.
Just wanted to nip that in the bud. Felice had already introduced you like it was supposed to mean something. Obviously Felice finds it hard to be humble and always needs some gimmick to back up one of her points. Sorry for insulting you but Felice is using you as a gimmick, not to say you are. Why, because Felice knows squat about AA.
Danny
^^^^^^Case in point.^^^^^^^
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Listen lil bitz, please save it for your first step meeting please. I have gone thru hell here for just mentioning AA.
No, you've been derided for how you present yourself...as evidenced in the first sentence of your post.
I am about as far away as you can get from selling AA to anybody, I don't sell it, promote it and I am not aware even if I attract it nor do I care.
:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:
Danny....
P.S. Love to talk more maybe PM first, then public. That's up to you.
Oh yeah...I'm sure she'll get right on that. Do you hear yourself?? Honestly, how can someone be so un-self-aware?
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Very important !!!!!
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=30147 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=30147)
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=30148 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=30148)
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=30149 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=30149)
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Danny why are you deleting some of your responses on viewtopic.php?f=22&t=30148 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=30148) ? You got caught with your hand in the cookie jar again :rocker:
You are pretty good at these delete jobs
:jawdrop:
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Jeesh if I had only known that the only thing I had to do was be one of Felice friends and have a pair of tits then Anne Bonnie would respect what of been saying all along, my God I would have had a genitalia transplant long ago then go thru the "Hell" I went through.
Amazing Grace......Hell I really don't care I'm just glad Anne stopped being stubborn, hey if it took another woman great but the message was received.
Read for comprehension, little one. I said from the very start that I have no problems with people using AA as a social support group. What I have a problem with is the big book, 12 & 12, sponsorship and the rest of the dogma.
It also helps that Felice's friend wasn't a complete jerk in how she expressed herself, as you were/are.
Hey Lil Bitz, I'll save you the effort. I don't really care what you and Felice discussed, what you read of me here or any opinion you may have. If you associate with Felice that pretty much sums it up for me.
I have 22 yrs- you have 28 in the big picture in Life it really doesn't mean much, what it does mean is that I've been doing what I should be for 22 yrs.
Just wanted to nip that in the bud. Felice had already introduced you like it was supposed to mean something. Obviously Felice finds it hard to be humble and always needs some gimmick to back up one of her points. Sorry for insulting you but Felice is using you as a gimmick, not to say you are. Why, because Felice knows squat about AA.
Danny
^^^^^^Case in point.^^^^^^^
:shamrock: :shamrock:
Excuse me little one, Ok I just want to show you just how stupid you are, First AA is the 12 & 12, Big Book and Sponsorship, "that's it," there is no other AA. Shit I knew you never went, you are such a liar.
AA is not a social support group, it is a study of AA's principles, if you want to socialize get on your boat and go suck some slogs at your local gin joint.
Anne shut-up from here on out when it comes to AA, please. You have no idea what your talking about. So do like Felice does when she does not like what I said, go run to "lil bitz" and she will make it all better. No your right Lil Bitz is not a jerk, YOU ARE A COMPLETE JERK-OFF.
Danny
Quoted for those princely turns of phrase.
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Re: ELAN forum
Sent: less than a minute ago
From: DannyB II
To: cleveland steamer
cleveland steamer wrote:Nice job with deleting your responses in the ELAN forum!
:shamrock: :shamrock:
Mark will you go fuck yourself you fucking bitch, you just called me 2 weeks ago wanting to talk, now this, next week that and so on......
Dude stay on your knees and suck, thats what you do best for your buddies.
You are disgusting dude...
Danny
P.S. Oh I wasn't supposed to, I thought they were mine, that's why I have a delete option, Imagine that.....lol
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Why is that a bad place to go, who cares if a lot of people are involved, are you Jewish. He asked the question answer it....You can quote me fat boy. Don't make this into a bigoted thing it is not, simple question simple answer, maybe he is Jewish.
Danny
:waaaa:
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This has never been answered.
Lots of attacks
Lots of Trolling
Stealing others stories and posting them as his own.
Nobody who has said "Ya Danny, I remember you!"
A lot of people who have said, "I lived 100 yds. away, I would have remembered him."
Telling everyone that we are all talking behind each others backs...
Personally attacking EVERYONE.
Getting banned from the Daytop thread twice.
Editing his resposes to everything so he can backpeddle....
ah the list goes on and on.......
Lots of B.S. , but no answer to this one.....kinda reminds me of Whooty's style.
Oh and the shit he post's on Facebook is just a scam to recruit people to victimize.
Now Danny Tells a Story of Years of Military service.....was that after Elan? Before AA? While you were drunk?
None of it adds up to anything but "THE GAME"
:shamrock: :shamrock:
Recently, he added accusations of a “Jewish conspiracy”. Later, he resorted to slurs about sexual orientation/preferences as well as possible trauma history as being the only reasons for why I would be so confoundingly impervious to his machinations
And now the OP (Bennison) of a thread titled "The abuse of women" goes to another thread and appears to be challenging Ginger to a bar fight!...
Aw, hell that’s just sad. Bennison, you make me sad.
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So, did you or did you not tie a girl to a van and drag her around behind it? Why is it so difficult for you to answer the question without the sarcasm or stupid remarks?
Danny still avoiding the question and refuses to answer it!
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:feedtrolls:
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:cheers: :cheers: :birthday: :shamrock: :seg: :seg2: :rocker: :rasta:
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:jawdrop:
Mark Babitz's mother who called me "big poppy."
(http://http://s153139690.websitehome.co.uk/dilligaf.jpg)
Why did you take the post down about asking me if I was Jewish, That is a bad place to go, You start involving alot of people then. I forgot to quote you but I wont make that mistake again :fuckoff: :fuckoff: :fuckoff: :fuckoff: .
:fuckoff: :fuckoff: :fuckoff:
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Why is that a bad place to go, who cares if a lot of people are involved, are you Jewish. He asked the question answer it....You can quote me fat boy. Don't make this into a bigoted thing it is not, simple question simple answer, maybe he is Jewish.
Danny
:waaaa:
[Yes I am Jewish] :cheers: :cheers:
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Here is my post from yesterday slightly altered but its hard to remove a post once it is registered in the members catch , you forgot,And there is only one way a post can be removed completely of the board :twofinger: e: AA and TC.s - How It Went So Wrong....????
Yes, why do you have something stupid say about Jews?? I think all the comedians and nazi took care of all the jokes, but they forgot you.I was raised Jewish and Catholic, in Skokie Ill, and moved to Winnetka just before high school, junior year.I went to Catholic grade school and synagogue on Saturday. Are you going to crack Jew jokes now?.Elan was taking Jews when I got there the biggest contributor was Marvin Swartz,I Joe wrote he didnt like the Blacks they were too hard to control.the Whites or Gentiles were very weak, Jews held up the best due to there history of being toucher they have the stamina to keep going. Oh was that the joke you were looking for[ Mr Norm Crosby]. Like I said ass-hole leave the Jews out of this, I am my own Man, and dont represent the Jewish or other Christian Faiths or other religions.I asked you yesterday do you believe in God,or anything other than bull-shit.?? Like I told you yesterday Jews, Blacks, Gay Folks, Disabled are kind of off limits, Your yelling into a dark whole and truly dont know whats down there. You did yesterday when it was mentioned, [ie] your post completely removed, again only certain people could do that., and for the computer savvy we know.!!.This post has been copied and stored so it can be reposted so no reason to alter this one.Attempting to pick on the Jews, we dont lash out at Gay people, we have seen you and your friend on Face-book, and thats fine, I wont repost it here, all who know have already made the identification and relevance to the post removals and it comes back to that guy.So stay off the religions. :beat: :beat: :beat: :feedtrolls: :feedtrolls: :feedtrolls:
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Re: AA and TC.s - How It Went So Wrong....????
by cleveland steamer » Yesterday, 14:34
How many gold teeth do you have?
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Re: AA and TC.s - How It Went So Wrong....????
by cleveland steamer » Yesterday, 14:38
Do you eat pork?
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Re: AA and TC.s - How It Went So Wrong....????
by cleveland steamer » Yesterday, 14:39
Have you seen the newest Jewish-American Princess horror movie? It's called, "Debbie Does Dishes!"
Last edited by cleveland steamer on 25 Mar 2010, 14:41, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: AA and TC.s - How It Went So Wrong....????
by cleveland steamer » Yesterday, 14:40
Why don't Jewish mothers drink? Alcohol interferes with their suffering! Boy what a jokester :notworthy: :notworthy:
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: AA and TC.s - How It Went So Wrong....????
Yes, why do you have something stupid say about Jews?? I think all the comedians and nazi took care of all the jokes, but they forgot you.I was raised Jewish and Catholic, in Skokie Ill, and moved to Winnetka just before high school, junior year.I went to Catholic grade school and synagogue on Satur...
by mark babitz
Yesterday, 14:27
Forum: Open Free for All
Topic: AA and TC.s - How It Went So Wrong....???? :jawdrop: Now do you think everyone amuses I was responding to the air, obviously a post was there , what happed to it.?? Above are the threads left behind, I hope you clean your house better than you posts. :fuckoff: :fuckoff: :fuckoff: :fuckoff: :fuckoff:
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Danny the Drunk is fighting a multi-front war with his brains tied behind his back. This guy is a dope.
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Danny the Drunk is fighting a multi-front war with his brains tied behind his back. This guy is a dope.
He's like a couple of memes, rolled into one.
The Internet tough guy
(http://http://www.joeydevilla.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2007/03/internet-tough-guy-magazine.gif)
And the "I have to be at the gym in 26 minutes" guy.
http://gawker.com/309684/nightmare-onli ... -the-world (http://gawker.com/309684/nightmare-online-dater-john-fitzgerald-page-is-the-worst-person-in-the-world)
I think you forgot how this works. You hit on me, and therefore have to impress ME and pass MY criteria and standards - not vice versa. 6 pictures of just your head and your inability to answer a simple question lets me know one thing. You are not in shape. I am a trainer on the side, in fact, I am heading to the gym in 26 minutes!
So next time you meet a guy of my caliber, instead of trying to turn it around, just get to the gym! I will even give you one free training session, so you don't blow it with the next 8.9 on Hot or Not, Ivy League grad, Mensa member, can bench/squat/leg press over 1200 lbs., has had lunch with the secretary of defense, has an MBA from the top school in the country, lives in a Buckhead high rise, drives a Beemer convertible, has been in 14 major motion pictures, was in Jezebel's Best dressed, etc. Oh, that is right, there aren't any more of those!
Regards,
John
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So what were we talking about, anyway? :rofl:
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Danny was trying to figure out how the TTI and AA went so wrong. A bunch of us made fun of him for thinking they were ever right to begin with.
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Here is my post from yesterday slightly altered but its hard to remove a post once it is registered in the members catch , you forgot,And there is only one way a post can be removed completely of the board :twofinger: e: AA and TC.s - How It Went So Wrong....????
Yes, why do you have something stupid say about Jews?? I think all the comedians and nazi took care of all the jokes, but they forgot you.I was raised Jewish and Catholic, in Skokie Ill, and moved to Winnetka just before high school, junior year.I went to Catholic grade school and synagogue on Saturday. Are you going to crack Jew jokes now?.Elan was taking Jews when I got there the biggest contributor was Marvin Swartz,I Joe wrote he didnt like the Blacks they were too hard to control.the Whites or Gentiles were very weak, Jews held up the best due to there history of being toucher they have the stamina to keep going. Oh was that the joke you were looking for[ Mr Norm Crosby]. Like I said ass-hole leave the Jews out of this, I am my own Man, and dont represent the Jewish or other Christian Faiths or other religions.I asked you yesterday do you believe in God,or anything other than bull-shit.?? Like I told you yesterday Jews, Blacks, Gay Folks, Disabled are kind of off limits, Your yelling into a dark whole and truly dont know whats down there. You did yesterday when it was mentioned, [ie] your post completely removed, again only certain people could do that., and for the computer savvy we know.!!.This post has been copied and stored so it can be reposted so no reason to alter this one.Attempting to pick on the Jews, we dont lash out at Gay people, we have seen you and your friend on Face-book, and thats fine, I wont repost it here, all who know have already made the identification and relevance to the post removals and it comes back to that guy.So stay off the religions. :beat: :beat: :beat: :feedtrolls: :feedtrolls: :feedtrolls:
:shamrock: :shamrock:
Mark if you are talking to me please read this slowly, "NO AND NOT ONLY "NO" BUT FUCK NO", got it asshole. You opened the door pal, so here it comes.
Danny
:jawdrop: Why in the hell would you respond to this post Danny,?? I dont see your name anywhere in it,nor does it insinuate your the person.And why are you jumping on me I haven't bashed you, you started bashing me out of the blue.I actually was speaking to the guilty party, How in the world would you have access to completely remove a post with any trace.?? I dont know why you even respond to an accusation like that, Any regular user can not remove the trail of the post, think about it, some thing will say edited, Facebook once its been posted and replied too I dont think you can even go back into the post. Non the less, I dont believe you have the knowledge to hack or have the access to delete post with out a trace. And I think If folks thought about it they would realize that too. :beat: :beat: :beat: :peace:
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I dont believe you have the knowledge to hack or have the access to delete post with out a trace.
:shamrock: :shamrock:
Oh the knowledge is there, not necessarily with me but it is there.
Danny
Ummmmmmm, yeah. That's what he said. That you didn't posses the knowledge.
Just out of curiosity....can you count to potato?
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:timeout: :timeout: :moon: :moon: