Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Anne Bonney on March 17, 2010, 09:59:37 AM
-
Found this while looking for the 'Uncovered' link.
http://www.momlogic.com/2009/06/can_wil ... l_your.php (http://www.momlogic.com/2009/06/can_wilderness_camps_kill_your.php)
Can Wilderness Camps Kill Your Kid?
Monday, June 22, 2009
filed under: family
It's an industry that preys on desperation.
matthew meyer was killed at camp
Gina Kaysen Fernandes: If your teenager has emotional issues, abuses drugs, or is promiscuous, help is just a phone call away. Wilderness intervention programs promise to "fix" bad behavior by teaching your child life skills and building self-esteem. These facilities offer a beacon of hope for parents like Crystal Manganaro, who sent her son, Matthew, to a wilderness camp outside of Houston. But what Crystal didn't realize was that the camp she entrusted with her son's life would so carelessly take it away.
Troubled Teen
At the age of 14, Matthew Meyer was flunking out of school and became a social outcast. "We argued about everything," says Crystal. Doctors diagnosed him with a bipolar disorder, but medication and weekly counseling didn't work. His mother had reached the breaking point. Her only son's belligerent behavior was uncontrollable. "I felt like he'd be isolated from the rest of the world socially and would end up living with me for the rest of his life." Crystal believed she had no choice but to seek professional help. She, along with thousands of parents in similar situations, turned to a wilderness intervention program because "I thought that was the answer."
In September 2004, Matthew's parents drove him hours away to a facility known as Lone Star Expeditions, located in the Davey Crockett National Forest in Texas. Stranded in an unfamiliar environment, Matthew was subjected to forced hikes while carrying a heavy backpack in hot weather. Communication with family was limited to several e-mails. "You have no way of knowing how it's going," said Crystal, who had no idea about her son's torturous treatment until it was too late.
Tragic Death
Just eight days into the program, Matthew and his group hiked several miles in 90-degree weather. A combination of excessive heat, a constrictive uniform, and Matthew's obesity caused him to overheat. He suffered a condition called hyperthermia, the worst form of heatstroke. "His body was literally burning up from the inside," says Crystal.
But instead of taking the boy's situation seriously, inexperienced and indifferent staffers thought Matthew was joking. They ignored his complaints of numbness in his legs. They told him he was having an anxiety attack when he suffered shortness of breath. Then they dumped water on him after he vomited and collapsed on the ground. Matthew Meyer died an hour later at the hospital. He was 14 years old.
Camp administrators refused to tell Crystal what happened to her son. It took three and a half years of investigation and litigation to reveal the truth. Aspen Education Group, the owners of Lone Star Expeditions, settled the case out of court.
The California-based company provided a written response to momlogic: "Safety is paramount within each of our outdoor programs, therefore each group is supported by a professionally trained wilderness first responder. In addition, all direct care staff are First Aid and CPR certified," wrote Kristen Hayes, Communications Director, adding, "Outdoor behavior health programs provide struggling young people with a wilderness-based experience, far removed from their current temptations, distractions and negative influences. Therapists, counselors and nature enable each student to accept responsibility for personal decisions, address individual and family issues, and become invested in their own personal growth."
An Industry that Operates Under the Radar
Nationwide, there are hundreds of wilderness programs, boot camps, and residential treatment facilities that practice a "tough love" approach to modifying children's behavior. This billion-dollar industry operates under the radar, without government oversight or intervention. "There are a number of gaps in federal and state oversight," said Kay Brown, director of the Government Accountability Office's Education, Workforce, and Income Securities Team, the federal agency that investigated Matthew Meyer's death.
The GAO recently released a series of scathing reports detailing its concerns regarding abuse and death in certain programs for troubled teens. The agency found thousands of allegations of abuse and, in some cases, death in American-owned and American-operated facilities at home and abroad between 1990 and 2007. Investigators believe the data under-reports the scope of the problem because the data doesn't catch incidents at private facilities. Brown explains, "Owners and operators can self-declare what kind of facility they're running and can bypass state requirements by categorizing themselves as a program that's not subject to licensing."
Some of the biggest red flags investigators uncovered were evidence of ineffective management, untrained staff, and reckless or negligent operating practices. "The so-called counselors who were responsible for monitoring the kids were basically high school babysitters," says Crystal. "The staff is trained to believe the kids are faking it to get out of the elements." There's also no way to track the number of abuse cases at any of these facilities because, according to the GAO, there's not a single website, federal agency, or other entity that collects comprehensive nationwide data.
The industry tends to attract affluent parents simply because of the staggering cost. A month of treatment can cost up to twenty thousand dollars. And there are plenty of parents who will say it's worth every penny. "A 30-day wilderness intervention program is the most powerful intervention tool that exists to save children's lives," said Michael Conner, Psy.D., a licensed psychologist and leading expert in wilderness-based therapy. Doctor Conner believes parents need to do their homework before sending their kids to one of these programs. "Don't trust what you see online," said Conner. "Don't trust parent testimonials. Trust professionals who have seen the good, the bad, and the ugly. "
Doctor Conner thinks parents need to take more responsibility before committing their kids. "Licensed mental health professionals who are familiar with a program should be making referrals for severely disturbed kids, not the parents," said Conner. "All programs will tell you they can help your child. But they won't tell you which is the best program for your child." He disputes claims that the staff at wilderness camps may be unqualified. "The wilderness programs I've worked with have better trained staff than you'd find in a residential treatment program," he said.
"Programs Do Make Mistakes"
A two-year study looked at 50 kids in three programs. After 30 days, 90% of the kids had improved to a functional level. After six months, 40% of those kids had relapsed, and after one year, half of those kids had recovered. "What these programs are doing is saving lives, but programs do make mistakes," said Conner.
Crystal Manganaro is paying dearly for one camp's mistakes. "Ever since Matthew died, I'm not the same person. I'm not a fun-loving person anymore. I'm not the same and never will be," said Crystal. She's now focused on advocacy work that involves changing the laws regulating wilderness intervention programs. Crystal, along with many other parents and teens who have had harmful experiences at these programs, is urging lawmakers to sign onto a bill called "Stop Child Abuse in Residential Programs for Teens Act of 2009." The main focus of the legislation is setting up an ongoing review process for investigating and monitoring reported cases of abuse and neglect. The bill, H.R. 911, is still waiting for a sponsor.
Crystal is determined to prevent other parents from suffering what she has endured. "I feel like I have a mission now. Matthew didn't die in vain. He will still teach this world something."
One of the comments at the bottom of the page......
I have been sent to 2 wilderness rehabilitation programs in my life. any parent even considering sending their kids, needs to log off the computer and take a hard look at their life and parenting up till this point. There have been over 40 reported deaths, and countless reports of abuse. Iv’e witnessed first hand exactly what goes on. I’ve done the forced hikes, watched as kids collapsed due to hypothermia, witnessed physical and mental abuse. I could’nt even send a letter. my face was literally torn to shreds from sun burn, I still have scars. I had 2 pairs of clothes so i changed close once a week. That’s all you got. I was there for over 2 months and had a total of 4 showers. I had lost all feeling in my toes from the onset of frost bite. Worse however is the mental torture which i cannot even describe except to say that i don’t think i will ever be the same. This poor kid Mathew obviously wasn’t as lucky as me, may he rest in peace. To any parent considering this, PLEASE RECONSIDER. This is the time when your kids need you most. You really think haveing them hike until they collapse is going to change them into the child you wish they were. I lost the best years of my life because of these programs, and will never forgive my parents for what they have done.
- Bobby
-
That was sad. I remember reading about Matthew. Thanks for finding this article, Anne. A few quotes from the article:
Doctor Conner thinks parents need to take more responsibility before committing their kids. "Licensed mental health professionals who are familiar with a program should be making referrals for severely disturbed kids, not the parents," said Conner. "All programs will tell you they can help your child. But they won't tell you which is the best program for your child." He disputes claims that the staff at wilderness camps may be unqualified. "The wilderness programs I've worked with have better trained staff than you'd find in a residential treatment program," he said.
This is where I think a third party sign-off would benefit. Most professionals agree that wilderness is highly effective but the parents are not trained to know which program would be the best choice for them.
"A 30-day wilderness intervention program is the most powerful intervention tool that exists to save children's lives," said Michael Conner, Psy.D., a licensed psychologist and leading expert in wilderness-based therapy.
A two-year study looked at 50 kids in three programs. After 30 days, 90% of the kids had improved to a functional level. After six months, 40% of those kids had relapsed, and after one year, half of those kids had recovered. "What these programs are doing is saving lives, but programs do make mistakes," said Conner.
So if I did the numbers right ….out of 100 kids 72 will be functioning well and still heading down a healthy path after 1 year.
...
-
That was sad. I remember reading about Matthew. Thanks for finding this article, Anne.
Fuck you.
-
A few quotes and excerpts from the article.
She, along with thousands of parents in similar situations, turned to a wilderness intervention program because "I thought that was the answer."
Just eight days into the program, Matthew and his group hiked several miles in 90-degree weather. A combination of excessive heat, a constrictive uniform, and Matthew's obesity caused him to overheat. He suffered a condition called hyperthermia, the worst form of heatstroke. "His body was literally burning up from the inside," says Crystal.
But instead of taking the boy's situation seriously, inexperienced and indifferent staffers thought Matthew was joking. They ignored his complaints of numbness in his legs. They told him he was having an anxiety attack when he suffered shortness of breath. Then they dumped water on him after he vomited and collapsed on the ground. Matthew Meyer died an hour later at the hospital. He was 14 years old.
Camp administrators refused to tell Crystal what happened to her son. It took three and a half years of investigation and litigation to reveal the truth. Aspen Education Group, the owners of Lone Star Expeditions, settled the case out of court.
The GAO recently released a series of scathing reports detailing its concerns regarding abuse and death in certain programs for troubled teens. The agency found thousands of allegations of abuse and, in some cases, death in American-owned and American-operated facilities at home and abroad between 1990 and 2007. Investigators believe the data under-reports the scope of the problem because the data doesn't catch incidents at private facilities. Brown explains, "Owners and operators can self-declare what kind of facility they're running and can bypass state requirements by categorizing themselves as a program that's not subject to licensing."
Some of the biggest red flags investigators uncovered were evidence of ineffective management, untrained staff, and reckless or negligent operating practices. "The so-called counselors who were responsible for monitoring the kids were basically high school babysitters," says Crystal. "The staff is trained to believe the kids are faking it to get out of the elements." There's also no way to track the number of abuse cases at any of these facilities because, according to the GAO, there's not a single website, federal agency, or other entity that collects comprehensive nationwide data.
One of the comments at the bottom of the page......
I have been sent to 2 wilderness rehabilitation programs in my life. any parent even considering sending their kids, needs to log off the computer and take a hard look at their life and parenting up till this point. There have been over 40 reported deaths, and countless reports of abuse. Iv’e witnessed first hand exactly what goes on. I’ve done the forced hikes, watched as kids collapsed due to hypothermia, witnessed physical and mental abuse. I could’nt even send a letter. my face was literally torn to shreds from sun burn, I still have scars. I had 2 pairs of clothes so i changed close once a week. That’s all you got. I was there for over 2 months and had a total of 4 showers. I had lost all feeling in my toes from the onset of frost bite. Worse however is the mental torture which i cannot even describe except to say that i don’t think i will ever be the same. This poor kid Mathew obviously wasn’t as lucky as me, may he rest in peace. To any parent considering this, PLEASE RECONSIDER. This is the time when your kids need you most. You really think haveing them hike until they collapse is going to change them into the child you wish they were. I lost the best years of my life because of these programs, and will never forgive my parents for what they have done.
- Bobby[/quote]
-
Dueling quotes!! LOL
Doctor Conner thinks parents need to take more responsibility before committing their kids. "Licensed mental health professionals who are familiar with a program should be making referrals for severely disturbed kids, not the parents," said Conner. "All programs will tell you they can help your child. But they won't tell you which is the best program for your child." He disputes claims that the staff at wilderness camps may be unqualified. "The wilderness programs I've worked with have better trained staff than you'd find in a residential treatment program," he said.
This is where I think a third party sign-off would benefit. Most professionals agree that wilderness is highly effective but the parents are not trained to know which program would be the best choice for them.
"A 30-day wilderness intervention program is the most powerful intervention tool that exists to save children's lives," said Michael Conner, Psy.D., a licensed psychologist and leading expert in wilderness-based therapy.
A two-year study looked at 50 kids in three programs. After 30 days, 90% of the kids had improved to a functional level. After six months, 40% of those kids had relapsed, and after one year, half of those kids had recovered. "What these programs are doing is saving lives, but programs do make mistakes," said Conner.
[/color][/size]
So if I did the numbers right ….out of 100 kids 72 will be functioning well and still heading down a healthy path after 1 year.
...
-
a bunch of quotes Whooter picked out of the article without mentioning that the guy he was quoting makes his living off of wilderness therapy
Yes, surprise surprise. A guy that works for wilderness therapy recommends wilderness therapy. Brilliant!
http://www.crisiscounseling.com/Vita.htm (http://www.crisiscounseling.com/Vita.htm)
2003 to Current - Program Director and Instructor for with Outdoor Therapy Institute (OTI).
Develop program curriculum and course materials for continuing education training for mental health professional interested in developing and expanding their practice in adventure, wilderness and outdoor therapy interventions. OTI is a program sponsored by Mentor Research Institute (MRI).
1999 to 2000 - Clinical Director and Therapist, Obsidian Trails. Bend ,OR.
Outdoor and indoor residential intervention program. Provide therapy and counseling to students and families. Supervised and approved admissions. Consultation, supervision, clinical training and debriefing to line and administrative staff.
1998 to 1999 - Clinical Director and Therapist, SageWalk the Outdoor School. Bend ,OR.
Outdoor residential intervention program. Provide therapy and counseling to students and families. Supervised and approved admissions. Consultation, supervision, clinical training and debriefing to line and administrative staff.
-
I regret posting this article because it points out the benefits of sending a child to wilderness. In the future I will read the articles before I post them. Please disregard these quotes from the article:
Doctor Conner thinks parents need to take more responsibility before committing their kids. "Licensed mental health professionals who are familiar with a program should be making referrals for severely disturbed kids, not the parents," said Conner. "All programs will tell you they can help your child. But they won't tell you which is the best program for your child." He disputes claims that the staff at wilderness camps may be unqualified. "The wilderness programs I've worked with have better trained staff than you'd find in a residential treatment program," he said.
This is where I think a third party sign-off would benefit. Most professionals agree that wilderness is highly effective but the parents are not trained to know which program would be the best choice for them.
"A 30-day wilderness intervention program is the most powerful intervention tool that exists to save children's lives," said Michael Conner, Psy.D., a licensed psychologist and leading expert in wilderness-based therapy.
A two-year study looked at 50 kids in three programs. After 30 days, 90% of the kids had improved to a functional level. After six months, 40% of those kids had relapsed, and after one year, half of those kids had recovered. "What these programs are doing is saving lives, but programs do make mistakes," said Conner.
[/color][/size]
So if I did the numbers right ….out of 100 kids 72 will be functioning well and still heading down a healthy path after 1 year.
Anne your idea of changing peoples quotes is very effective. Does this work for you?
...
-
Anne your idea of changing peoples quotes is very effective. Does this work for you?
Unlike you, I make it very clear that I'm changing the words. I'm not trying to confuse the reader. You, apparently, are.
It doesn't change the fact that you like to quote from sources who are extremely biased. In this case, he actually works in the industry. Any logical thinker would consider that biased.
Edited to add...
And posts like yours above are exactly why people consider you a pompous and dishonest asshole.
-
I didn't even have to look to know, but just to prove my point, I checked to see if Michael Conner PsyD was affiliated with a program.
But of course he is affiliated with a program! The very program, Sagewalk, that has killed multiple students due to malfeasance, including Sergei B. who died in September of 2009. Sagewalk is owned by Aspen Education Group, which also owns Mount Bachelor Academy, the school ordered closed by the State of Oregon because it's "treatment practices" were found to meet the definition of child abuse under Oregon law. He also runs a referral service for sending kids to programs. And--oh, I love this--he has developed an online tool you can use to diagnose your child!! You can even "measure the value of medications and therapy" online. (Talk about an online tool...)
His website promotes his books, public speaking, referral consultation services, online screening (click "purchase"!), and all the other ways this guy makes money off the desperation of parents and the misery of kids.
Credibility = FAIL
Auntie Em
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Michael G. Conner, PsyD
An active outdoorsman, Dr. Conner moved to Bend Oregon in 1999 becoming the clinical director for Sagewalk, an intervention program for youth. Opening a private practice in 2002, Dr. Conner now provides clinical counseling, therapy and diagnostic services to individual adults, couples, parents and adolescents. developing a national reputation, his diagnostic and youth intervention practice draws parents of youth at-risk from throughout the United States. In 2003, Dr. Conner began research n ationally on youth at risk; creating new online behavioral screening and information gathering technologies.
Bio: http://www.crisiscounseling.com/Michael ... iceBio.pdf (http://www.crisiscounseling.com/MichaelConnerPracticeBio.pdf)
Referral service: http://www.crisiscounseling.com/consult/index.htm (http://www.crisiscounseling.com/consult/index.htm)
Online Tool: http://www.steponeforparents.org/ (http://www.steponeforparents.org/)
-
It doesn't change the fact that you like to quote from sources who are extremely biased. In this case, he actually works in the industry. Any logical thinker would consider that biased.
Ha,Ha,Ha Anne... I quote from an article that you posted!! Just a suggestion, next time dont post biased articles if it gives you heart burn. Try to find articles which show a nice balance between pro and anti program. lol
...
-
Ha,Ha,Ha Anne... I quote from an article that you posted!! Just a suggestion, next time dont post biased articles if it gives you heart burn. Try to find articles which show a nice balance between pro and anti program. lol
You're a mere annoyance to me anymore. Something to simply put up with. No heartburn so don't you fret.
You selectively pulled those quotes without disclosing the source's history of working for wilderness therapy programs. Spin it all you want, post all the 'hahahas' and lols and ...s you want, we all see you for what you are. All this is is damage control. Deflect, distort, derail, distract etc. etc.
-
I didn't even have to look to know, but just to prove my point, I checked to see if Michael Conner PsyD was affiliated with a program.
But of course he is affiliated with a program! The very program, Sagewalk, that has killed multiple students due to malfeasance, including Sergei B. who died in September of 2009. Sagewalk is owned by Aspen Education Group, which also owns Mount Bachelor Academy, the school ordered closed by the State of Oregon because it's "treatment practices" were found to meet the definition of child abuse under Oregon law. He also runs a referral service for sending kids to programs. And--oh, I love this--he has developed an online tool you can use to diagnose your child!! You can even "measure the value of medications and therapy" online. (Talk about an online tool...)
His website promotes his books, public speaking, referral consultation services, online screening (click "purchase"!), and all the other ways this guy makes money off the desperation of parents and the misery of kids.
Credibility = FAIL
Auntie Em
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Michael G. Conner, PsyD
An active outdoorsman, Dr. Conner moved to Bend Oregon in 1999 becoming the clinical director for Sagewalk, an intervention program for youth. Opening a private practice in 2002, Dr. Conner now provides clinical counseling, therapy and diagnostic services to individual adults, couples, parents and adolescents. developing a national reputation, his diagnostic and youth intervention practice draws parents of youth at-risk from throughout the United States. In 2003, Dr. Conner began research n ationally on youth at risk; creating new online behavioral screening and information gathering technologies.
Bio: http://www.crisiscounseling.com/Michael ... iceBio.pdf (http://www.crisiscounseling.com/MichaelConnerPracticeBio.pdf)
Referral service: http://www.crisiscounseling.com/consult/index.htm (http://www.crisiscounseling.com/consult/index.htm)
Online Tool: http://www.steponeforparents.org/ (http://www.steponeforparents.org/)
Yep. I thought Sagewalk was one of the literally lethal programs. Yeah, I'd trust that guy with my kids. ::)
-
But of course he is affiliated with a program! The very program, Sagewalk, that has killed multiple students due to malfeasance, including Sergei B. who died in September of 2009. Sagewalk is owned by Aspen Education Group, which also owns Mount Bachelor Academy, the school ordered closed by the State of Oregon because it's "treatment practices" were found to meet the definition of child abuse under Oregon law. He also runs a referral service for sending kids to programs. And--oh, I love this--he has developed an online tool you can use to diagnose your child!! You can even "measure the value of medications and therapy" online. (Talk about an online tool...)
His website promotes his books, public speaking, referral consultation services, online screening (click "purchase"!), and all the other ways this guy makes money off the desperation of parents and the misery of kids.
Credibility = FAIL
Auntie Em
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Michael G. Conner, PsyD
An active outdoorsman, Dr. Conner moved to Bend Oregon in 1999 becoming the clinical director for Sagewalk, an intervention program for youth. Opening a private practice in 2002, Dr. Conner now provides clinical counseling, therapy and diagnostic services to individual adults, couples, parents and adolescents. developing a national reputation, his diagnostic and youth intervention practice draws parents of youth at-risk from throughout the United States. In 2003, Dr. Conner began research n ationally on youth at risk; creating new online behavioral screening and information gathering technologies.
Bio: http://www.crisiscounseling.com/Michael ... iceBio.pdf (http://www.crisiscounseling.com/MichaelConnerPracticeBio.pdf)
Referral service: http://www.crisiscounseling.com/consult/index.htm (http://www.crisiscounseling.com/consult/index.htm)
Online Tool: http://www.steponeforparents.org/ (http://www.steponeforparents.org/)
Because it (http://http://a4.vox.com/6a00c225257507604a00fae8c21e94000b-500pi)
-
You selectively pulled those quotes without disclosing the source's history of working for wilderness therapy programs. Spin it all you want, post all the 'hahahas' and lols and ...s you want, we all see you for what you are. All this is is damage control. Deflect, distort, derail, distract etc. etc.
Anne, I was quoting from an article you posted.... Lol Its not up to us readers to locate and disclose the sources for you.
I don’t think any of us are surprised that they interviewed someone with ties to the industry (most reporters would lose their job if they didnt). If the article were about childs health I am sure they would seek out the opinion of someone who was tied to the industry of children’s health. The readers wouldn’t want the opinion of someone outside the industry would they? They would want a pediatrician.
If the article were about car maintenance the readers could be assured that they would interview someone with working knowledge of how to maintain a car etc.
So if Dr. Connor was not affiliated with the troubled teen industry I don’t think his opinions would hold much water. But seeing that he does gives his words credibility.
With that said it does give us more study results:
Anne Bonneys article stated that: A two-year study looked at 50 kids in three programs. After 30 days, 90% of the kids had improved to a functional level. After six months, 40% of those kids had relapsed, and after one year, half of those kids had recovered. "What these programs are doing is saving lives, but programs do make mistakes," said Conner.
[/color]
So if I did the numbers right ….out of 100 kids 72 will be functioning well and still heading down a healthy path after 1 year.
...
-
Anne, I was quoting from an article you posted.... Lol Its not up to us readers to locate and disclose the sources for you.
Yes, you moronic piece of shit, I know. You selectively took those quotes from the article and attributed them to the author of the article when they actually came from someone else.
Again...this is why you're dismissed as a lying shill and a complete asshole.
-
So if I did the numbers right ….out of 100 kids 72 will be functioning well and still heading down a healthy path after 1 year.
According to someone who is paid by the industry. Not one independent study can verify that claim, but you know that already.
Deflect, derail, disrupt. Spin spin spin away asshole.
-
Most professionals agree that wilderness is highly effective...
Source? I know many professionals and I have never personally heard any say this. I'd like to see the source of your dubious claim.
This reminds me of when you claimed there were "100,000 psychologists in the US" but you were off by ten-fold. And when you said 18 month programs are "short term" when the meaning of "short term" in the context of treatment is 30-90 DAYS. Not only is Whooter wholly ignorant, he's a shill.
Facts are a funny thing. What Whooter posts is mostly just made up, hence no sourcing.
-
And, in answer to the question posed in the OP...
YES, they can kill your child and, in fact, have killed many children over the past few years. Aspen Education killed the boy who is the subject of the OP, along with many others.
Aspen Education kills children. :poison: Don't say you weren't warned.
-
So if I did the numbers right ….out of 100 kids 72 will be functioning well and still heading down a healthy path after 1 year.
According to someone who is paid by the industry. Not one independent study can verify that claim, but you know that already.
I dont know the source, Anne, You posted it not me. I am just quoting the article you posted. No need to be rude to people.
My neighbors oncologist has written a book about the effectiveness of treatment and is also paid by the industry he wrote the book about. But not one person feels this discredits his opinions. Outside of fornits I dont think anyone would blink an eye that they interviewed someone with a background, knowledge and experience of the topic at hand. Who would you expect them to interview the local car mechanic? lol.
...
-
[
I dont know the source, Anne, You posted it not me. I am just quoting the article you posted. No need to be rude to people.
Fuck off you disingenuous piece of shit. Again...this is why no one takes you seriously. You know damned well that the author of the article wasn't saying that but you chose to present it that way in order to confuse the reader about what the article actually says v. what a paid shill says. But, you knew that already.
:fuckoff:
How 'bout citing your source for this.....
Whooter wrote:Most professionals agree that wilderness is highly effective...
-
Can Wilderness Camps Kill Your Kid? Anybody ever heard of Aaron Bacon?
-
Aspen Education kills children. Don't say you weren't warned.
True statement.
At the same time, I don't want people getting the idea that this is about a few bad apples. As documented by the GAO in its forensic investigations, the abuse, maltreatment, neglect and death of teens in residential programs is widespread, and not limited to a specific corporation's facilities, but in programs of all sizes, regardless of whether they hold any licensing or accreditation.
Auntie Em
-
Aspen Education kills children. Don't say you weren't warned.
True statement.
At the same time, I don't want people getting the idea that this is about a few bad apples. As documented by the GAO in its foresnic investigations, the abuse, maltreatment, neglect and death of teens in residential programs is widespread, and not limited to a specific corporation's facilities, but in programs of all sizes, regardless of whether they hold any licensing or accreditation.
Auntie Em
One of the key statements,above, is that the problem is wide spread and is independent of whether or not the facilities are licensed or accredited. I have always been on the fence as to whether or not these programs should be regulated or not. Knowing how the government seems to foul up everything they get their hands on I am leaning towards non-regulation of the industry right now.
The GAO also never suggested that the industry as a whole is ineffective or dangerous and does help these kids and adds value. I think we would be hard pressed to find any industry that is free from harming children at one time or another. Kids are being hurt by the thousands in our present public school system which is now the latest focus of the GAO and the use of restraints.
I think it is encouraging that more and more professionals are coming out to voice their opinions of the industry which, I have seen, has been positive. More professionals are also recommending wilderness for children with behavioral type issues, with the latest study showing upwards of 72% of the kids are still heading down a good path one year after the left the program.
...
-
|
|
|
|
V
-
Off the top of my head I was just thinking that galavanting off into the wilderness might be a bad idea in general. Personally I have done a lot of hiking and camping in the woods and I know how unforgiving the elements can be.
Trekking off into the wild should be an activity for learning and fun for well adjusted individuals only. Using this as any kind of treatment sounds hidious to me. The risks FAR outweigh the "possible" benefits.
I see no good excuse to support wilderness programs. Too dangerous, too easy to hide abuses, too difficult for anyone to inspect or collect evidence of wrongdoing...etc.
And to think that in many cases, a wilderness program might only be the first of several programs that a kid might be subjected to makes the hair on the back of my neck stand on end. Like a Multi-Cult or something...instead of phases or levels, there are actually different programs to......acheive?
No, Wilderness programs are narrowly my least favorite type of behavior modification program and should be outlawed outright due to the fact they cannot be properly regulated and the magnitude of the risk involved.
-
Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
-
Off the top of my head I was just thinking that galavanting off into the wilderness might be a bad idea in general. Personally I have done a lot of hiking and camping in the woods and I know how unforgiving the elements can be.
@ wdtony
You should have went with me on the 25 day canoe trip when I was @ Eckerd RI.
I think one day of canoeing is enough for me thanks. Where did you end up? Another state?
-
Probably from North Florida to Southern Florida down the Suwannee river. I've done that trip a few times, uggh.
-
Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
-
Found this while looking for the 'Uncovered' link.
http://www.momlogic.com/2009/06/can_wil ... l_your.php (http://www.momlogic.com/2009/06/can_wilderness_camps_kill_your.php)
Can Wilderness Camps Kill Your Kid?
Monday, June 22, 2009
filed under: family
It's an industry that preys on desperation.
matthew meyer was killed at camp
Gina Kaysen Fernandes: If your teenager has emotional issues, abuses drugs, or is promiscuous, help is just a phone call away. Wilderness intervention programs promise to "fix" bad behavior by teaching your child life skills and building self-esteem. These facilities offer a beacon of hope for parents like Crystal Manganaro, who sent her son, Matthew, to a wilderness camp outside of Houston. But what Crystal didn't realize was that the camp she entrusted with her son's life would so carelessly take it away.
Troubled Teen
At the age of 14, Matthew Meyer was flunking out of school and became a social outcast. "We argued about everything," says Crystal. Doctors diagnosed him with a bipolar disorder, but medication and weekly counseling didn't work. His mother had reached the breaking point. Her only son's belligerent behavior was uncontrollable. "I felt like he'd be isolated from the rest of the world socially and would end up living with me for the rest of his life." Crystal believed she had no choice but to seek professional help. She, along with thousands of parents in similar situations, turned to a wilderness intervention program because "I thought that was the answer."
In September 2004, Matthew's parents drove him hours away to a facility known as Lone Star Expeditions, located in the Davey Crockett National Forest in Texas. Stranded in an unfamiliar environment, Matthew was subjected to forced hikes while carrying a heavy backpack in hot weather. Communication with family was limited to several e-mails. "You have no way of knowing how it's going," said Crystal, who had no idea about her son's torturous treatment until it was too late.
Tragic Death
Just eight days into the program, Matthew and his group hiked several miles in 90-degree weather. A combination of excessive heat, a constrictive uniform, and Matthew's obesity caused him to overheat. He suffered a condition called hyperthermia, the worst form of heatstroke. "His body was literally burning up from the inside," says Crystal.
But instead of taking the boy's situation seriously, inexperienced and indifferent staffers thought Matthew was joking. They ignored his complaints of numbness in his legs. They told him he was having an anxiety attack when he suffered shortness of breath. Then they dumped water on him after he vomited and collapsed on the ground. Matthew Meyer died an hour later at the hospital. He was 14 years old.
Camp administrators refused to tell Crystal what happened to her son. It took three and a half years of investigation and litigation to reveal the truth. Aspen Education Group, the owners of Lone Star Expeditions, settled the case out of court.
The California-based company provided a written response to momlogic: "Safety is paramount within each of our outdoor programs, therefore each group is supported by a professionally trained wilderness first responder. In addition, all direct care staff are First Aid and CPR certified," wrote Kristen Hayes, Communications Director, adding, "Outdoor behavior health programs provide struggling young people with a wilderness-based experience, far removed from their current temptations, distractions and negative influences. Therapists, counselors and nature enable each student to accept responsibility for personal decisions, address individual and family issues, and become invested in their own personal growth."
An Industry that Operates Under the Radar
Nationwide, there are hundreds of wilderness programs, boot camps, and residential treatment facilities that practice a "tough love" approach to modifying children's behavior. This billion-dollar industry operates under the radar, without government oversight or intervention. "There are a number of gaps in federal and state oversight," said Kay Brown, director of the Government Accountability Office's Education, Workforce, and Income Securities Team, the federal agency that investigated Matthew Meyer's death.
The GAO recently released a series of scathing reports detailing its concerns regarding abuse and death in certain programs for troubled teens. The agency found thousands of allegations of abuse and, in some cases, death in American-owned and American-operated facilities at home and abroad between 1990 and 2007. Investigators believe the data under-reports the scope of the problem because the data doesn't catch incidents at private facilities. Brown explains, "Owners and operators can self-declare what kind of facility they're running and can bypass state requirements by categorizing themselves as a program that's not subject to licensing."
Some of the biggest red flags investigators uncovered were evidence of ineffective management, untrained staff, and reckless or negligent operating practices. "The so-called counselors who were responsible for monitoring the kids were basically high school babysitters," says Crystal. "The staff is trained to believe the kids are faking it to get out of the elements." There's also no way to track the number of abuse cases at any of these facilities because, according to the GAO, there's not a single website, federal agency, or other entity that collects comprehensive nationwide data.
The industry tends to attract affluent parents simply because of the staggering cost. A month of treatment can cost up to twenty thousand dollars. And there are plenty of parents who will say it's worth every penny. "A 30-day wilderness intervention program is the most powerful intervention tool that exists to save children's lives," said Michael Conner, Psy.D., a licensed psychologist and leading expert in wilderness-based therapy. Doctor Conner believes parents need to do their homework before sending their kids to one of these programs. "Don't trust what you see online," said Conner. "Don't trust parent testimonials. Trust professionals who have seen the good, the bad, and the ugly. "
Doctor Conner thinks parents need to take more responsibility before committing their kids. "Licensed mental health professionals who are familiar with a program should be making referrals for severely disturbed kids, not the parents," said Conner. "All programs will tell you they can help your child. But they won't tell you which is the best program for your child." He disputes claims that the staff at wilderness camps may be unqualified. "The wilderness programs I've worked with have better trained staff than you'd find in a residential treatment program," he said.
"Programs Do Make Mistakes"
A two-year study looked at 50 kids in three programs. After 30 days, 90% of the kids had improved to a functional level. After six months, 40% of those kids had relapsed, and after one year, half of those kids had recovered. "What these programs are doing is saving lives, but programs do make mistakes," said Conner.
Crystal Manganaro is paying dearly for one camp's mistakes. "Ever since Matthew died, I'm not the same person. I'm not a fun-loving person anymore. I'm not the same and never will be," said Crystal. She's now focused on advocacy work that involves changing the laws regulating wilderness intervention programs. Crystal, along with many other parents and teens who have had harmful experiences at these programs, is urging lawmakers to sign onto a bill called "Stop Child Abuse in Residential Programs for Teens Act of 2009." The main focus of the legislation is setting up an ongoing review process for investigating and monitoring reported cases of abuse and neglect. The bill, H.R. 911, is still waiting for a sponsor.
Crystal is determined to prevent other parents from suffering what she has endured. "I feel like I have a mission now. Matthew didn't die in vain. He will still teach this world something."
One of the comments at the bottom of the page......
I have been sent to 2 wilderness rehabilitation programs in my life. any parent even considering sending their kids, needs to log off the computer and take a hard look at their life and parenting up till this point. There have been over 40 reported deaths, and countless reports of abuse. Iv’e witnessed first hand exactly what goes on. I’ve done the forced hikes, watched as kids collapsed due to hypothermia, witnessed physical and mental abuse. I could’nt even send a letter. my face was literally torn to shreds from sun burn, I still have scars. I had 2 pairs of clothes so i changed close once a week. That’s all you got. I was there for over 2 months and had a total of 4 showers. I had lost all feeling in my toes from the onset of frost bite. Worse however is the mental torture which i cannot even describe except to say that i don’t think i will ever be the same. This poor kid Mathew obviously wasn’t as lucky as me, may he rest in peace. To any parent considering this, PLEASE RECONSIDER. This is the time when your kids need you most. You really think haveing them hike until they collapse is going to change them into the child you wish they were. I lost the best years of my life because of these programs, and will never forgive my parents for what they have done.
- Bobby
:bump:
-
A couple of paragraphs that jump out at me from the above post:
The industry tends to attract affluent parents simply because of the staggering cost. A month of treatment can cost up to twenty thousand dollars. And there are plenty of parents who will say it's worth every penny. "A 30-day wilderness intervention program is the most powerful intervention tool that exists to save children's lives," said Michael Conner, Psy.D., a licensed psychologist and leading expert in wilderness-based therapy.
A two-year study looked at 50 kids in three programs. After 30 days, 90% of the kids had improved to a functional level. After six months, 40% of those kids had relapsed, and after one year, half of those kids had recovered. "What these programs are doing is saving lives, but programs do make mistakes," said Conner.
That works out to 72% of the kids are still heading down a healthy path after a year. Thats not too bad.
...
-
A couple of paragraphs that jump out at me from the above post:
The industry tends to attract affluent parents simply because of the staggering cost. A month of treatment can cost up to twenty thousand dollars. And there are plenty of parents who will say it's worth every penny. "A 30-day wilderness intervention program is the most powerful intervention tool that exists to save children's lives," said Michael Conner, Psy.D., a licensed psychologist and leading expert in wilderness-based therapy.
A two-year study looked at 50 kids in three programs. After 30 days, 90% of the kids had improved to a functional level. After six months, 40% of those kids had relapsed, and after one year, half of those kids had recovered. "What these programs are doing is saving lives, but programs do make mistakes," said Conner.
That works out to 72% of the kids are still heading down a healthy path after a year. Thats not too bad.
Stop spamming dickhead. You've posted those a couple of times now in a failed attempt to distract from the FACT that this guy makes his living off of these places. Of COURSE he's gonna rave about them. He's an Ed Con (emphasis on the word Con), he's hawking a book and he thinks he can dx kids from an internet survey filled out by their parents.
Let's look at some of the programs he's worked at, shall we?
Sagewalk - killed a kid http://cafety.org/privately-funded-prog ... r-sagewalk (http://cafety.org/privately-funded-programs/778-investigation-under-way-in-redmond-wilderness-camp-death-or-sagewalk)
A Portland mother is talking about the death of her teenage son at a Redmond-based wilderness school. But it's not the first time this has happened at camps here.
http://www.ktvz.com/Global/story.asp?S=11355998 (http://www.ktvz.com/Global/story.asp?S=11355998)
New to the program he was given plenty of water, but his diet was restricted. For breakfast, he was given just two cups of granola or oatmeal. An hour into the hike other's noticed Sergey walking awkwardly, a sign of heat exhaustion or heat stroke.
Video of grieving mom
http://www.kptv.com/video/20685256/ (http://www.kptv.com/video/20685256/)
Obsidian - killed a kid http://www.nospank.net/n-g81.htm (http://www.nospank.net/n-g81.htm)
William H. Edward Lee died Monday night at a Bend hospital after instructors of the Obsidian Trails wilderness camp held him down in a remote patch of the south Central Oregon desert. An autopsy was performed Wednesday, but the results had not reached the office of Lake County District Attorney David A. Schutt on Thursday night.
http://www.caica.org/NEWS%20Deaths%20Edward%20Lee2.htm (http://www.caica.org/NEWS%20Deaths%20Edward%20Lee2.htm)
A 15-year-old Scappoose boy died while being "restrained" at a wilderness school in the Oregon high desert on Monday night after he exhibited "defiant behavior."
Sure....I'd trust this guy with my kids.....suuuuuure
-
Quick point of correction/clarification on H.R. 911, the "Stop Child Abuse in Residential Programs for Teens Act of 2009." The legislation passed the House of Representatives with broad bipartisan support last year, and a sponsor is needed in the Senate for it to proceed to a vote there.
More info here: http://edlabor.house.gov/blog/2009/02/t ... side.shtml (http://edlabor.house.gov/blog/2009/02/the-stop-child-abuse-in-reside.shtml)
Auntie Em
-
Sagewalk - killed a kid http://cafety.org/privately-funded-prog ... r-sagewalk (http://cafety.org/privately-funded-programs/778-investigation-under-way-in-redmond-wilderness-camp-death-or-sagewalk)
A Portland mother is talking about the death of her teenage son at a Redmond-based wilderness school. But it's not the first time this has happened at camps here.
http://www.ktvz.com/Global/story.asp?S=11355998 (http://www.ktvz.com/Global/story.asp?S=11355998)
New to the program he was given plenty of water, but his diet was restricted. For breakfast, he was given just two cups of granola or oatmeal. An hour into the hike other's noticed Sergey walking awkwardly, a sign of heat exhaustion or heat stroke.
Video of grieving mom
http://www.kptv.com/video/20685256/ (http://www.kptv.com/video/20685256/)
Obsidian - killed a kid http://www.nospank.net/n-g81.htm (http://www.nospank.net/n-g81.htm)
William H. Edward Lee died Monday night at a Bend hospital after instructors of the Obsidian Trails wilderness camp held him down in a remote patch of the south Central Oregon desert. An autopsy was performed Wednesday, but the results had not reached the office of Lake County District Attorney David A. Schutt on Thursday night.
http://www.caica.org/NEWS%20Deaths%20Edward%20Lee2.htm (http://www.caica.org/NEWS%20Deaths%20Edward%20Lee2.htm)
A 15-year-old Scappoose boy died while being "restrained" at a wilderness school in the Oregon high desert on Monday night after he exhibited "defiant behavior."
Sure....I'd trust this guy with my kids.....suuuuuure
The C & I show that I posted about yesterday featured the William Lee story and it was horrible. Same shit, different day. Restraints. The 911 call from the staff said exactly what happened...she said they "sat on him for 15 minutes". Face down. In the dirt. Then he "stopped struggling". Yeah...he was fucking DEAD you piece of shit!!
-
A couple of paragraphs that jump out at me from the above post:
The industry tends to attract affluent parents simply because of the staggering cost. A month of treatment can cost up to twenty thousand dollars. And there are plenty of parents who will say it's worth every penny. "A 30-day wilderness intervention program is the most powerful intervention tool that exists to save children's lives," said Michael Conner, Psy.D., a licensed psychologist and leading expert in wilderness-based therapy.
A two-year study looked at 50 kids in three programs. After 30 days, 90% of the kids had improved to a functional level. After six months, 40% of those kids had relapsed, and after one year, half of those kids had recovered. "What these programs are doing is saving lives, but programs do make mistakes," said Conner.
That works out to 72% of the kids are still heading down a healthy path after a year. Thats not too bad.
...
No one is spamming. These were taken directly from the original post. Professionals write books all the time about the industry they are involved in and recommend the programs that they deal with. I think if they didnt it would raise an eyebrow or two. Imagine a heart surgeon saying saying "whoa! stay away from heart procedures or you could die on the table" lol.
Its interesting reading your reaction. I posted a study awhile back which showed the effectiveness of programs and everyone here was up in arms because one of the researchers had a background in the industry. Most people outside of fornits would be up in arms if there wasnt anyone with a working knowledge in programs. lol Imagine a heart study which didnt have any doctors with a background in medicine?
So it depends on your individual perspective. The studies shouldnt be a threat to anyone here.
...
-
No one is spamming. These were taken directly from the original post. Professionals write books all the time about the industry they are involved in and recommend the programs that they deal with. I think if they didnt it would raise an eyebrow or two. Imagine a heart surgeon saying saying "whoa! stay away from heart procedures or you could die on the table" lol.
Its interesting reading your reaction. I posted a study awhile back which showed the effectiveness of programs and everyone here was up in arms because one of the researchers had a background in the industry. Most people outside of fornits would be up in arms if there wasnt anyone with a working knowledge in programs. lol Imagine a heart study which didnt have any doctors with a background in medicine?
So it depends on your individual perspective. The studies shouldnt be a threat to anyone here.
[/quote]
They're not a threat. They're a joke. As are you. They guy has worked at programs that have killed kids.
Just stop. Seriously. You're just embarrassing yourself.
-
No one is spamming. These were taken directly from the original post. Professionals write books all the time about the industry they are involved in and recommend the programs that they deal with. I think if they didnt it would raise an eyebrow or two. Imagine a heart surgeon saying saying "whoa! stay away from heart procedures or you could die on the table" lol.
Its interesting reading your reaction. I posted a study awhile back which showed the effectiveness of programs and everyone here was up in arms because one of the researchers had a background in the industry. Most people outside of fornits would be up in arms if there wasnt anyone with a working knowledge in programs. lol Imagine a heart study which didnt have any doctors with a background in medicine?
So it depends on your individual perspective. The studies shouldnt be a threat to anyone here.
They're not a threat. They're a joke. As are you. They guy has worked at programs that have killed kids.
Just stop. Seriously. You're just embarrassing yourself.
Why does it matter that he works at a program where kids have died? What does that mean? That he kills kids? Your logic is totally off, Anne. Horst Köhler is presently president of a country that killed millions upon millions of people. But that doesnt mean that he is going to start killing people too! lol
What is wrong with you? You dont even take the time to understand what someone stands for before you start to fault them.
...
-
Why does it matter that he works at a program where kids have died? What does that mean? That he kills kids? Your logic is totally off, Anne. Horst Köhler is presently president of a country that killed millions upon millions of people. But that doesnt mean that he is going to start killing people too! lol
What is wrong with you? You dont even take the time to understand what someone stands for before you start to fault them.
Whatever helps ya sleep at night dude. Wow...the guilt you feel must truly be overwhelming at times for you to go to the lengths you do to defend even the indefensible.
-
Why does it matter that he works at a program where kids have died? What does that mean? That he kills kids? Your logic is totally off, Anne. Horst Köhler is presently president of a country that killed millions upon millions of people. But that doesnt mean that he is going to start killing people too! lol
What is wrong with you? You dont even take the time to understand what someone stands for before you start to fault them.
Whatever helps ya sleep at night dude. Wow...the guilt you feel must truly be overwhelming at times for you to go to the lengths you do to defend even the indefensible.
Well its worth it to help people see the point they are missing. Some people just judge others very harshly without ever meeting them (or getting to know what they stand for) and its due to ignorance or maybe it is an attempt to deceive others, I dont know. But to disregard a persons opinion or lifes work because they are running an organization which had problems in its past is just wrong. How can we fault Horst Köhler for all the jews who were killed? Should we disregard what he says because he is part of Germany's ruling party?
All I am saying is slow down and look at who you are criticizing and for what reason are you closing your eyes and ears. You can still disagree with what a person says and the studies that are quoted but we dont know if this person is bad or not. We shouldnt assume.
...
-
buncha bullshit Whooter wrote about what he thinks I need to so
Fuck off prick ::)
-
I just hate spending my time reading up on the facts. I just feel that anyone who works for a program must be evil and wants to hurt kids. If this makes me evil and ignorant so be it, but my brain will never process any new information as long as I live. All programs suck and kill people!!!! That’s where I am stuck and will stay.
Cool, Anne, hope this works out for you but there are other readers who do continue to watch the industry change and grow, are open minded, and have reformed their opinion and this is why I continue to post here.
...
-
Oh wow, he's hurting bad. Looks like that list of lawyers really cheesed him off. :D
-
Whooter, you are a strange guy:))
I mean...it is so easy to recognize what your agenda is...yet you sit here day by day and post and post and post...what a sad life you must have...
Why do you do it?
-
Quick point of correction/clarification on H.R. 911, the "Stop Child Abuse in Residential Programs for Teens Act of 2009." The legislation passed the House of Representatives with broad bipartisan support last year, and a sponsor is needed in the Senate for it to proceed to a vote there.
More info here: http://edlabor.house.gov/blog/2009/02/t ... side.shtml (http://edlabor.house.gov/blog/2009/02/the-stop-child-abuse-in-reside.shtml)
Auntie Em
Thank you for posting this, I don't usually have enough time to keep an eye on everything I need to and I'm sure I'm not the only one.
-
I just hate spending my time reading up on the facts. I just feel that anyone who works for a program must be evil and wants to hurt kids. If this makes me evil and ignorant so be it, but my brain will never process any new information as long as I live. All programs suck and kill people!!!! That’s where I am stuck and will stay.
Cool, Anne, hope this works out for you but there are other readers who do continue to watch the industry change and grow, are open minded, and have reformed their opinion and this is why I continue to post here.
Again...when I change the words I'm quoting, I make it very obvious that I'm doing so as not to confuse the reader. You don't because your intention IS to confuse, obfuscate and deflect. You're here doing damage control because we're getting the truth out about these abusive hellholes.
Whatever helps ya sleep at night dude.
-
Quick point of correction/clarification on H.R. 911, the "Stop Child Abuse in Residential Programs for Teens Act of 2009." The legislation passed the House of Representatives with broad bipartisan support last year, and a sponsor is needed in the Senate for it to proceed to a vote there.
More info here: http://edlabor.house.gov/blog/2009/02/t ... side.shtml (http://edlabor.house.gov/blog/2009/02/the-stop-child-abuse-in-reside.shtml)
Auntie Em
Thank you for posting this, I don't usually have enough time to keep an eye on everything I need to and I'm sure I'm not the only one.
I hope it gets a sponsor soon.
I think this bill will go a long way in protecting the kids in the care of these facilities. I have been on and off the fence on regulation and this bill stops short of forcing these programs to adhere to archaic reporting systems, paperwork and red tape which would drive up the cost and do little to actually protect these kids.
If this bill were piggybacked with a requirement that annual inspections be designed and implemented (and funding for) I think it would have more teeth. But it will still do a lot to help the way it is presently written.
...
-
The answer is yes, but so can walking across the street or sending your kid to school. The key is as a parent reducing the risks of harm need to be looked at.
Some programs are poorly designed and dangerous, wonder why more kids don't die. However, there are excellent programs out there that work well also. A parent should not be making the choice alone, they should be getting recommendations from a therapist and MD for what is best for your kid. Most deaths have been the result of staff not understanding the history and medical needs of the youth. You do not send a kid who was high on drugs the previous month on a forced hike in 90 degree heat, it is a death wish. Many programs are forcing kids to do things that they physically cannot do because of past drug problems. A good program will know the physical limitations of each kid and not push those limitations. Many kids should never be put into a wilderness program.
Some kids do extremely well and have fond memories, that is usually a kid that was sent to a program that met their needs both physically and mentally. Research is important and just because a place is licensed does not mean they are qualified. Don't knock the entire industry because of the bad programs, it denies the help that some really need. Educate parents so they know what to look for and stay away from the bad programs.
Changing the laws and regulations would help. Make it so every program must have well trained staff in the wilderness including a therapist and medical staff. Requiring owners and key staff to be therapist will also help. Most bad programs rely on cheap untrained staff. Restricting failed programs from re-opening under a different name and same ownership would make a difference. Creating a certification and ethics requirement standard.
-
Some programs are poorly designed and dangerous, wonder why more kids don't die. However, there are excellent programs out there that work well also. A parent should not be making the choice alone, they should be getting recommendations from a therapist and MD for what is best for your kid. Most deaths have been the result of staff not understanding the history and medical needs of the youth. You do not send a kid who was high on drugs the previous month on a forced hike in 90 degree heat, it is a death wish. Many programs are forcing kids to do things that they physically cannot do because of past drug problems. A good program will know the physical limitations of each kid and not push those limitations. Many kids should never be put into a wilderness program.
Certain psychotropic medications may also effect that death wish by interfering with the body's ability to thermoregulate. Some kids' brains have literally been cooked to death inside their skulls for precisely this reason. And noooooo recreational drugs were even necessary for this feat!
-------------- • --------------
Excerpt from: Summertime and Our Meds Part 1: Heatstroke (http://http://bipolar.about.com/od/generalhealth/a/040624_heat.htm)
Heatstroke is a medical emergency when the body's temperature-regulating system breaks down. The victim can't sweat and is unable to cool himself. Internal body temperature often rises as high as 108 degrees, which can cause irreversible brain damage and death. High temperatures injure endothelial* cells and damage almost every organ, including liver, kidneys, lungs, heart, and muscle.
A Few Facts About Heatstroke:
• It's more likely when the outside temperature is very hot. A heat wave is defined by the National Weather Service as 3 or more consecutive days of temperatures at or above 90°F (32.2°C ).
• Hyperpyrexia (core temperature greater than 105°F [40.6°C ]) and central nervous system impairment causing delirium or coma are characteristic.
• The death rate for heatstroke ranges from 10% to 75%, depending on other variables, but averages 25%.
• Mentally ill patients are a high-risk group. Some may not have the cognitive abilities to protect themselves; others are taking psychotropic medications that affect heat regulation.
Heatstroke is more likely when taking the following drugs:
- Antipsychotics - especially:
- Chlorpromazine (Thorazine)
- Thioridazine (Mellaril)
- Mesoridazine (Serentil)
- Clozapine (Clozaril)
- Risperidone (Risperdal)
- Olanzapine (Zyprexa)
- Quetiapine (Seroquel)
- Ziprasidone (Geodon)
- Antiparkinson drugs such as:
- Benztropine (Cogentin)
- Trihexyphenidyl (Artane)
- Procyclidine (Arpicolin, Kemadrin)
- Biperiden
- Antihistamines such as:
- diphenhydramine (Benadryl)
- chlorpheniramine (Chlor-Trimeton, Sinutab Sinus Allergy)
- Antidepressants, especially tricyclics such as:
- Imipramine (Tofranil)
- Amitriptyline (Elavil)
- Nortriptyline (Pamelor)
- Doxepin (Sinequan)
- Desipramine (Norpramin)
- Protriptyline (Vivactil)
Do's:
- Sleep in a cool place.
- Drink extra fluids. Water is best because the body absorbs cooler solutions fast. Other fluids are juice, Gatorade, caffeine-free soda.
- Increase salt intake if no physical problems.
- If you take lithium, use extra salt in addition to extra fluids.
- Spend time in cool places (shopping malls, movies, etc.)
- Wear loose, light-colored summer-weight clothing.
- Use fans or air conditioning.
- When feeling warm, use cool wet compresses or sit in a tub of cool water.
- Remain with another person.
Don'ts:
- Engage in strenuous exercise.
- Drink alcoholic beverages, coffee and soda with caffeine (caffeine and alcohol increase water loss).
- Spend time outside in the sun.
- Sleep or sit in hot conditions.
Warning Signs:
- Nausea, headache, feeling poorly, weakness
- Irritability, anxiety
- Fast pulse, rapid breathing, dizziness
- Hot OR dry skin, confusion, vomiting, diarrhea
* Endothelial cells line blood vessels, body cavities, organs and the inner layer of the cornea of the eye, among other things.
-
Thanks Ursus, This is a really good point:
I think educating parents to ask the right questions will go a long way in preventing children from getting hurt. Parents should ask if staff are adequately trained to recognize symptoms of heat stroke (as well as first –aid etc.) prior to choosing a specific wilderness program.
If fornits moved more towards educating people I think it would go a long way in helping families chose the right direction for their child. Information is critical.
...
-
Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
-
Thanks Ursus, This is a really good point:
I think educating parents to ask the right questions will go a long way in preventing children from getting hurt. Parents should ask if staff are adequately trained to recognize symptoms of heat stroke (as well as first –aid etc.) prior to choosing a specific wilderness program.
If fornits moved more towards educating people I think it would go a long way in helping families chose the right direction for their child. Information is critical.
Whooter I don't mean to be rude but you use specific language people associated with the troubled teen industry use. I am referring to educational consultants, people that programs rely on for positive reviews, people associated with non profit organizations helping parents of troubled teenagers, current program staff or former program staff. This is something I have wanted to get off my chest for awhile and don't know if you fall under any of the previously mentioned categories.
Thats okay, Joel, dont feel bad, you are not being rude. People with the same beliefs usually end up talking in similar terms. Look at the use of the terms Gulags and incarceration etc.with survivors who had a bad experience and then look at survivors who did extremely well and they use a different language to communicate and describe the same experience.
My language would be more in line with people who are pro-program than those of survivors who had a bad experience because they are my beliefs and support my experiences. If I spent 10 years in England I would probably pick up an English accent, but that would not make me English or necessarily a person who liked Soccer.
But it is interesting that you point out that I speak the language. It shows how the time spent here on fornits has effected me and my vocabulary on the subject.
...
-
Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
-
Does the following apply to you?
1. Educational consultants
2. People that programs rely on for positive reviews
3. People associated with non profit organizations helping parents of troubled teenagers
4. Current program staff
5. Former program staff
I find it ironic a person who is "pro-program" posts on a website that exposes abuse.
Aaahhh... Damage control. A less overt aspect of marketing.
-
Does the following apply to you?
1. Educational consultants
2. People that programs rely on for positive reviews
3. People associated with non profit organizations helping parents of troubled teenagers
4. Current program staff
5. Former program staff
I find it ironic a person who is "pro-program" posts on a website that exposes abuse.
Maybe you have not been here long enough but there are more people posting here than those just exposing abuse. There are those who think I run a program, an educational consultant etc., I have had many names placed upon me. If these things bother you then I am sorry. I cant change who I am. I am a program parent and I don't get paid by the industry. If you dont believe this than there is really nothing I can do.
...
-
Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
-
I am a program parent and I don't get paid by the industry.
We heard that from Sue Scheff too. And, technically, it may very well be true. Doesn't mean he doesn't profit from the industry.
-
1. Educational consultants
2. People that programs rely on for positive reviews
3. People associated with non profit organizations helping parents of troubled teenagers
4. Current program staff
5. Former program staff
Whooter I am not interested in what others think about you. Does 1 - 5 apply to you? These are easy questions to answer.
Joel, the answer to your question is “no”. None of them apply to me. In regards to Anne’s response she does have a point. If you have a 401k then you probably profit from the troubled teen industry. These programs also pay taxes which help repair roads, support federal programs and help fund unemployment and welfare. So if you drive a car or benefit from any federal agencies then you are, technically, profiting from the industry.
...
-
Joel, the answer to your question is “no”. None of them apply to me. In regards to Anne’s response she does have a point. If you have a 401k then you probably profit from the troubled teen industry. These programs also pay taxes which help repair roads, support federal programs and help fund unemployment and welfare. So if you drive a car or benefit from any federal agencies then you are, technically, profiting from the industry.
That's not what I meant, but you knew that. Another example of why people accuse you of deflection.
-
Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
-
Whooter
Do you benefit from the troubled teen industry financially?
Do you have any involvement with the persons/programs below?
Tamara Ancona Denni David
Building Bridges
Marilyn Engelman
Second Nature Wilderness Program
Willow Creek School
Homeward Bound
Westchester Family Academy
Leslie Goldberg
Aspen Ranch
Aspen Institute for Behavioral Assessment
Vision Adolescent Services
Stone Mountain School
Look Joel, I already told you that I don't have any ties to the industry nor do I profit from it. I had a daughter who attended a wilderness program and then she entered ASR. That is my entire involvement.
...
-
Look Joel, I already told you that I don't have any ties to the industry nor do I profit from it. I had a daughter who attended a wilderness program and then she entered ASR. That is my entire involvement.
And, last I heard from your own posts, you two don't really speak.
-
Look Joel, I already told you that I don't have any ties to the industry nor do I profit from it. I had a daughter who attended a wilderness program and then she entered ASR. That is my entire involvement.
And, last I heard from your own posts, you two don't really speak.
Link? Reference?
-
Look Joel, I already told you that I don't have any ties to the industry nor do I profit from it. I had a daughter who attended a wilderness program and then she entered ASR. That is my entire involvement.
And, last I heard from your own posts, you two don't really speak.
Link? Reference?
yeah, yeah....ya got me. I'm not gonna dig through years of posts to find it. I remember having a discussion about your daughter and you danced around the issue as usual, but the gist is that she wasn't too happy with dear old dad. Am I wrong? How's she doing?
-
Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
-
Look Joel, I already told you that I don't have any ties to the industry nor do I profit from it. I had a daughter who attended a wilderness program and then she entered ASR. That is my entire involvement.
And, last I heard from your own posts, you two don't really speak.
Link? Reference?
yeah, yeah....ya got me. I'm not gonna dig through years of posts to find it. I remember having a discussion about your daughter and you danced around the issue as usual, but the gist is that she wasn't too happy with dear old dad. Am I wrong? How's she doing?
We communicated much better when she returned. I think what you recall is when she went back to her old friends after being home a few weeks and I wasn't happy about it. But since we were able to talk with each other much easier I trusted her and gave her the freedom she asked for. She eventually realized she had outgrown most of her friends and moved onto college. The open communication was a big help and I think the biggest change I saw in her post ASR.
...
-
We communicated much better when she returned. I think what you recall is when she went back to her old friends after being home a few weeks and I wasn't happy about it. But since we were able to talk with each other much easier I trusted her and gave her the freedom she asked for. She eventually realized she had outgrown most of her friends and moved onto college. The open communication was a big help and I think the biggest change I saw in her post ASR.
And there it is again.....
(http://http://www.renosingles.net/images/Man_Tap_Dancing.gif)
-
Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
-
We communicated much better when she returned. I think what you recall is when she went back to her old friends after being home a few weeks and I wasn't happy about it. But since we were able to talk with each other much easier I trusted her and gave her the freedom she asked for. She eventually realized she had outgrown most of her friends and moved onto college. The open communication was a big help and I think the biggest change I saw in her post ASR.
And there it is again.....
(http://http://www.renosingles.net/images/Man_Tap_Dancing.gif)
What is it you want to know, Anne? My daughter and I communicate fine. We are very open with each other. Do you not believe this or you have a link that says I indicated something different in the past?
To me dancing means a person is being vague or avoiding an issue. I think I have been direct in my answers.
...
-
Whooter
Does ASR release your contact information to parents who are thinking about sending their child to ASR? How many times has this taken place?
For the first few months after my daughter graduated I would get calls from other parents asking me about our experience with ASR and I would answer their questions. I believe they asked me at graduation if it would be okay if other parents contacted me. But there was no formal agreement or need to sign anything.
...
-
What is it you want to know, Anne? My daughter and I communicate fine. We are very open with each other. Do you not believe this or you have a link that says I indicated something different in the past?
To me dancing means a person is being vague or avoiding an issue. I think I have been direct in my answers.
That's pretty much exactly what you said what, 4 or more years ago. Surely she's graduated college by now, right? You use the phrase 'my daughter and I communicate fine'. Maybe it's just me, but that sounds, ummmmm, clinical is the only way I can describe it. How's your general relationship? Are the two of you close? How does she feel about her years incarcerated at the various programs (can't remember how many you said you sent her to but I do remember it was more than one) you sent her to?
And yes, I think you're being deliberately vague and avoiding the issue. But that's just me.
-
That's pretty much exactly what you said what, 4 or more years ago.
Yes, my story hasn’t changed at least that is how I recall it. I am sure perception changes over the years and if you brought up a quote from me from several years ago it may be a little different but the general message should be consistent.
Surely she's graduated college by now, right? You use the phrase 'my daughter and I communicate fine'. Maybe it's just me, but that sounds, ummmmm, clinical is the only way I can describe it.
She has graduated from college a few years ago. When I was speaking above I was referencing the time after she came home from ASR. Sorry if it sounds clinical. Its just the way I talk I guess.
How's your general relationship? Are the two of you close? How does she feel about her years incarcerated at the various programs (can't remember how many you said you sent her to but I do remember it was more than one) you sent her to?
We get along well and have a good relationship, she has her own place now and is seeing someone with whom she is serious. She has fond memories of ASR and keeps in contact with most of the kids in her peer group. They are in the process of planning a reunion of some sort.
I sent her to a wilderness and then on to ASR. Total of 16 months I believe.
And yes, I think you're being deliberately vague and avoiding the issue. But that's just me.
That’s okay, I feel that many times speaking with people here.
...
-
Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
-
Whooter
When did you enroll your daughter at Academy at Swift River and when did she graduate?
Joel why all the questions? I don't recall the exact dates. If you do a search on my initial posts you will get all that info. It was the 2001, 2002 time-frame when she was there.
...
-
So you are really just a program parent?
May I ask what did your wife think about all this? (Sending your daughter away I mean).
And...if you are just a program parent...why do you spend years on this forum?
-
So you are really just a program parent?
May I ask what did your wife think about all this? (Sending your daughter away I mean).
And...if you are just a program parent...why do you spend years on this forum?
Your first question......There were differences in opinions but we both knew what was best for her.
Maruska, I stumbled upon fornits and found people talking about an industry that has saved thousands of lives, like it was evil, and I was struck by their stories. How could and industry which dedicates itself to turning around "at risk" youths get such a bad rap. So I stuck around and read the stories here on fornits.
Lets say you sent your Child to join a soccer team and you saw him grow and do well, make friends and then later met a group of kids who said that soccer was abusive and a cult because they forced you to follow rituals and rules, wear specific clothing and telling everyone that everyone is hurt by soccer and if anyone says they were helped then that means they must be brainwashed and part of the cult or subculture. Wouldn’t you be totally intrigued by that and interested and want to understand what drives these people to think this way? I know I would.
This is how it was with me. I was blown away by the stories here and the peoples persistence.
A big part of getting better or turning the corner is to take accountability for ones own actions. As adults we all know this, but as children it is hard to comprehend this sometimes. I noticed a similarity in the stories and those who didn’t do well in programs were also those who didn’t take accountability for what they did and blamed others for being in the program. They blamed their parents, family members, Educational Consultants or staff members. The kids who did well in programs moved on with their lives, went to college and continued down a healthy path, but they were perceived as brain washed by those who didn’t do well. Maybe this is because it threatened their belief that “all” people are hurt by programs. If you read the stories here on fornits the one piece that is missing is the individuals' involvement or contribution to their predicament. What events lead up to them being placed? This is always left out in the story and back filled with ....... " My family sent me away for no reason". What family is going to spend $100,000 for no reason? or for a kid smoking pot? Which leads us back to the accountability question.
So do you see my dilemma?
I eventually started speaking out and was tagged as an industry person and eventually even fornits admins got frustrated with me and tagged my avatar as being a nazi in an attempt to discredit my point of view. This raised the curious question of why would someone do this? Why would a group of posters care so much about an opposing point of view that they had to try to bury it? Were they that threatened by me? And if so why?
If we substituted the word “program” for “sports team” we would still get kids dyeing from heat exhaustion, being abused, screamed at, forced to carry heavy objects, clean up after themselves. There are 1,500 or more successful suicides of teenagers every year who attend our public school system. But if even one (1) of these deaths occurs (Just 1....even once a year) 5 years after a person leaves a program it is considered a program death and people here are up in arms blaming the program they attended and wanting the industry or specific program shut down. Doesn’t that seem odd to you?
So I stick around to try and help families to not get so frustrated and give up on their child. Children need to be listened to and engaged and to just allow them to head down a dangerous path in the hope that everything will turn out okay is just not doing your job as a parent. Good parents need to know their child is safe at all times.
...
-
Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
-
Yeah, Whooter's leaving out a few details about his "story." He did previously admit here that his (alleged) daughter stopped talking to him after her two programs and that she cut him out of her life.
He also keeps stating she "graduated" ASR, but since ASR was/is unaccredited, they cannot issue valid high school diplomas. Whooter told us that not only did she not graduate high school at ASR, but that she also dropped out of high school entirely when she got home and went right back to excessive drinking and drug use. His story about her graduating college seems a bit dubious in light of his earlier comments.
And, if you look at it from the perspective above, as described by Whooter himself, he spent over $100k for no reason. He's the parent he says doesn't exist.
Kid drinking and drugging and not going to school BEFORE the programs and kid drinking and drugging and dropping out of school AFTER the programs. All that money and pain for no results at all. Now that his kid is grown up he goes back and credits the programs from five years ago (programs can get retroactive credit, but not blame - the program parent's obvious logical fallacy) that had demonstrably no positive effect, when all that happened in reality is his kid grew up which she would have done all by herself without being subjected to abusive scumbags like Rudy Bentz screaming at her that she's a no-good whore during "therapy" sessions.
Whooter's fictitious "story" doesn't even pass the most cursory examination. Don't let him hoodwink you. He's FOS.
-
an industry that has saved thousands of lives,
Citation please.
A big part of getting better or turning the corner is to take accountability for ones own actions. As adults we all know this, but as children it is hard to comprehend this sometimes. I noticed a similarity in the stories and those who didn’t do well in programs were also those who didn’t take accountability for what they did and blamed others for being in the program. They blamed their parents, family members, Educational Consultants or staff members. The kids who did well in programs moved on with their lives, went to college and continued down a healthy path, but they were perceived as brain washed by those who didn’t do well. Maybe this is because it threatened their belief that “all” people are hurt by programs. If you read the stories here on fornits the one piece that is missing is the individuals' involvement or contribution to their predicament. What events lead up to them being placed? This is always left out in the story and back filled with ....... " My family sent me away for no reason". What family is going to spend $100,000 for no reason? or for a kid smoking pot? Which leads us back to the accountability question.
Bullshit. There are plenty of us that "did well" in our respective programs. I "did well" while in there, even graduated. We blame our parents for not doing their jobs. We blame them for sending us to shitpits to "get well" when there was nothing really wrong with us to begin with, other than normal teenage screwing around or other than having parents that didn't like the fact that their kids were growing up and gaining minds and thoughts of their own. So many parents fall prey to the fearmongering that the industry uses to scare the shit out of them. Just look at any of the online questionnaires or "tests" that they use. They're ridiculous!! They "symptoms" that they use could describe pretty much any teenager. Defiant behavior seems to really hook 'em. You don't like that your kid's mouthy to you? We'll fix that! Don't like that they disrespect you? We'll fix that! Defiance is a natural part of growing up and breaking away from parents. It's a natural part of teens figuring out who they are, testing their own limits and boundaries. They need to be guided through that process and it's a goddamned difficult thing to do, I know from personal experience raising two grown girls, but it's OUR responsibility as parents.
So do you see my dilemma?
Yes. You can't accept that what you did was wrong so you twist yourself into knots attempting to justify it.
I eventually started speaking out and was tagged as an industry person and eventually even fornits admins got frustrated with me and tagged my avatar as being a nazi in an attempt to discredit my point of view.
I dont' remember you being tagged as a nazi but in any case, there wasn't an attempt to "discredit" you....it was a warning that most believed that your interest here was much more than simply a program parent.
This raised the curious question of why would someone do this? Why would a group of posters care so much about an opposing point of view that they had to try to bury it? Were they that threatened by me? And if so why?
No, we're not threatened by your point of view. We hate the fact that you twist others words, talk in complete circles, that you try to derail, deflect and distract readers when things start to hit a nerve with you. When the truth is being told, you don't like it so you come up with your ridiculous analogies to the auto industry or some such bullshit.
If we substituted the word “program” for “sports team” we would still get kids dyeing from heat exhaustion, being abused, screamed at, forced to carry heavy objects, clean up after themselves. There are 1,500 or more successful suicides of teenagers every year who attend our public school system. But if even one (1) of these deaths occurs (Just 1....even once a year) 5 years after a person leaves a program it is considered a program death and people here are up in arms blaming the program they attended and wanting the industry or specific program shut down. Doesn’t that seem odd to you?
There again.....different situations that you're trying to equate with the TTI. And most of the deaths that we're speaking about here occurred while the kids were there! Restraint deaths seem to be particularly common. But yes, I've known people who were so traumatized by what happened to them in their program that even years after they were still suffering. That's what happens in cult-like atmospheres. It's called PTSD and sometimes it does take years before the full effects are felt.
You defend EVERYTHING they do. Even some of the most reprehensible things and programs that most everyone agrees were abusive, you're right there to defend them and tell us all why it was still the kids fault, not the program's.
And....citation please for the stats you quoted.
So I stick around to try and help families to not get so frustrated and give up on their child.
And we believe, with the amount of time and energy you spend here, that it's much more than simply a program parent trying to help out.
Children need to be listened to and engaged and to just allow them to head down a dangerous path in the hope that everything will turn out okay is just not doing your job as a parent. Good parents need to know their child is safe at all times.
Good parents don't give up on their kids. They take the time to find out what's wrong (if anything) and deal with it. They take the time to see if anything that they themselves are doing that needs to be examined. They don't simply put the blame on the kid and then ship them off to be "fixed" by unqualified strangers with quack, unproven "therapies" that have been shown to be ineffective at best and dangerous at worst. The outsourcing of parenting has become acceptable and it's absolutely abhorrent. IMO and experience, the vast majority of kids who actually do need help don't need inpatient treatment and those that do need to receive it from qualified persons and facilities.
-
So you are really just a program parent?
May I ask what did your wife think about all this? (Sending your daughter away I mean).
And...if you are just a program parent...why do you spend years on this forum?
Your first question......There were differences in opinions but we both knew what was best for her.
Maruska, I stumbled upon fornits and found people talking about an industry that has saved thousands of lives, like it was evil, and I was struck by their stories. How could and industry which dedicates itself to turning around "at risk" youths get such a bad rap. So I stuck around and read the stories here on fornits.
Lets say you sent your Child to join a soccer team and you saw him grow and do well, make friends and then later met a group of kids who said that soccer was abusive and a cult because they forced you to follow rituals and rules, wear specific clothing and telling everyone that everyone is hurt by soccer and if anyone says they were helped then that means they must be brainwashed and part of the cult or subculture. Wouldn’t you be totally intrigued by that and interested and want to understand what drives these people to think this way? I know I would.
This is how it was with me. I was blown away by the stories here and the peoples persistence.
A big part of getting better or turning the corner is to take accountability for ones own actions. As adults we all know this, but as children it is hard to comprehend this sometimes. I noticed a similarity in the stories and those who didn’t do well in programs were also those who didn’t take accountability for what they did and blamed others for being in the program. They blamed their parents, family members, Educational Consultants or staff members. The kids who did well in programs moved on with their lives, went to college and continued down a healthy path, but they were perceived as brain washed by those who didn’t do well. Maybe this is because it threatened their belief that “all” people are hurt by programs. If you read the stories here on fornits the one piece that is missing is the individuals' involvement or contribution to their predicament. What events lead up to them being placed? This is always left out in the story and back filled with ....... " My family sent me away for no reason". What family is going to spend $100,000 for no reason? or for a kid smoking pot? Which leads us back to the accountability question.
So do you see my dilemma?
I eventually started speaking out and was tagged as an industry person and eventually even fornits admins got frustrated with me and tagged my avatar as being a nazi in an attempt to discredit my point of view. This raised the curious question of why would someone do this? Why would a group of posters care so much about an opposing point of view that they had to try to bury it? Were they that threatened by me? And if so why?
If we substituted the word “program” for “sports team” we would still get kids dyeing from heat exhaustion, being abused, screamed at, forced to carry heavy objects, clean up after themselves. There are 1,500 or more successful suicides of teenagers every year who attend our public school system. But if even one (1) of these deaths occurs (Just 1....even once a year) 5 years after a person leaves a program it is considered a program death and people here are up in arms blaming the program they attended and wanting the industry or specific program shut down. Doesn’t that seem odd to you?
So I stick around to try and help families to not get so frustrated and give up on their child. Children need to be listened to and engaged and to just allow them to head down a dangerous path in the hope that everything will turn out okay is just not doing your job as a parent. Good parents need to know their child is safe at all times.
Seriously, Whooter, to refer to yourself as "merely a program parent" is disingenuous at best. No mere program parent continues to post thousands upon thousands of posts ... eight friggin' years after your "daughter" ostensibly completed her program ... just to keep kids' stories "honest." Gimme a break! Moreover, were that actually indeed true, it begs the question: Why even start posting on fornits ... three years after she completed program? You didn't start posting here 'till 2005.
Coincidentally, that was right around the time that John Reuben started testing the waters for his philanthro-capitalist project — Saving Teens In Crisis Collaborative (STICC) — begun in the aftermath of having put his older son through the very same two programs your "daughter" ostensibly went to... Hmmm.
-
More on Ursus' point here. (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=27903&hilit=sticc#p336331)
Here Whooter admits being part of a TTI working group in Chicago to "assess Wilderness safety" but Whooter brags about telling his colleagues "where the real money is, the TBS industry." (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=16007&hilit=chicago&start=1470#p245461)
What "regular parent" travels 1200 miles from home for TTI meetings to determine wilderness safety and TBS revenue streams? He is a huge liar and it is proven in his own words.
-
Whooter: JUMP!
Fornits losers: HOW HIGH?!
You people are pathetic.
-
The above posts just go to show (and further support my belief) that it is valid to question other peoples motives for posting. Many feel I have not been truthful and that my own postings tell a different story than what I am saying. It is up to the individual reader to determine if a person’s story is valid or not. I can only say what I have experienced, the rest is up to the readers.
I run into the same problem that Ursus, DJ and Anne have. I have read posts of people saying they were abused during their time in the program yet the specifics of their post just don’t add up. I feel if I were abused I would notify the police after I left the program and name the abuser here on fornits. But most of the time this is not done. People would rather let the abuser run free (to abuse others) and just talk about it here on fornits. Why? How do they sleep at night? To many readers this would mean they are not being truthful and cant name the person because it didn’t happen. Maybe some people make up stories just to fit in better or be part of the group, who knows.
So I think it is left up to the individual readers (each and every time) to determine if a poster is being honest or not. Sometimes there just isn’t any way to fact check or validate each person and their story. So we need to go with our gut like Ursus etal. mentioned above.
...
-
Whooter, you said: Good parents need to know their child is safe at all times.
Well...I see a contradiction here...does that mean good parents would not send their child away to be in the mercy of complete strangers, without the possibility to speak to the child (sometimes for several days, or even weeks?) Because in sending them away you do NOT know they are safe. You just have to trust ...and believe complete strangers.
And please do not come up with the cancer treatment analogy again:) We have been there already:)
You know, the reality is you cannot keep your teenager safe at all times, that is not possible! Teenage years are dangerous, we all know that. I think I can understand this great marketing idea: send your child to us , she or he will be safe. All the program parents say this: oh, it was hardest desicion of my life to send Janie to Utah , but at least I can sleep well now because I know she is safe....
One more question if you do not mind: what if one parent does not agree in sending Janie away? Do the programs require the consent of both parents?
And also one very personal question: do you work? I mean, you seem to spend so much time here daily.....I wonder how you do it:)
-
Whooter, you said: Good parents need to know their child is safe at all times.
Well...I see a contradiction here...does that mean good parents would not send their child away to be in the mercy of complete strangers, without the possibility to speak to the child (sometimes for several days, or even weeks?) Because in sending them away you do NOT know they are safe. You just have to trust ...and believe complete strangers.
And please do not come up with the cancer treatment analogy again:) We have been there already:)
You know, the reality is you cannot keep your teenager safe at all times, that is not possible! Teenage years are dangerous, we all know that. I think I can understand this great marketing idea: send your child to us , she or he will be safe. All the program parents say this: oh, it was hardest desicion of my life to send Janie to Utah , but at least I can sleep well now because I know she is safe....
One more question if you do not mind: what if one parent does not agree in sending Janie away? Do the programs require the consent of both parents?
And also one very personal question: do you work? I mean, you seem to spend so much time here daily.....I wonder how you do it:)
Yes, there is a great deal of trust involved. But this applies to all the complete strangers that a child is exposed to…ie, daycare provider, school bus driver, preschool teacher, gym teacher, pediatrician, therapist etc. None of these people are members of the family typically.
So what can a parent do if a younger 3 year old sibling is seen walking around the house with a used needle, the oldest has dropped out of school, disregards all the rules and disrespects all the people around him/her…. Local services have failed? I guess just sit back and do nothing?
A local therapist may suggest a Therapeutic Boarding school so you speak to other parents, other kids who have gone through the program and review the studies. Besides the beliefs of a handful of people here on fornits the studies are valid, conducted independently and overseen by a third party independent agency to insure there is no conflict of interest.
With the exception of not being able to come up with the funds I cant see any reason why a parent would not consider this help for their child.
As far as what I do.......Some people prefer 8-5 jobs with 4 weeks vacation a year. As far as myself, I work intensely for very short periods of time and then have months at a time in-between with loads of free time. I enjoy working hard and then taking time off for myself.
...
-
...the studies are valid, conducted independently and overseen by a third party independent agency to insure there is no conflict of interest.
Links? Sources?? Who has assessed the validity of these "studies"? Were they published for peer-review? Is there a single longitudinal clinical study? Which "third-party independent agency" is overseeing these "studies"?
-
Oh..Ok..taking time for yourself means sit here and post on Fornits:))
You know , I try to understand you...I mean, you really are a very interesting person from a psychological point of view...I cannot imagine anobody who would spend years posting on a forum where people basicaly hate you or make fun of you...seems kind of weird, you know...
I know, I know you told me your reasons....but I do not think you are very succesfull here...the other posters here come over far more educated on this subject...they have something you will never have, a personal experience. You on the other hand have a very predictable way of posting...I almost could tell what your answer would be to any question LOL
Comes to mind...does your family know about your hobby? Did your wife or daughter ever post here?
-
Oh..Ok..taking time for yourself means sit here and post on Fornits:))
You know , I try to understand you...I mean, you really are a very interesting person from a psychological point of view...I cannot imagine anobody who would spend years posting on a forum where people basicaly hate you or make fun of you...seems kind of weird, you know...
I know, I know you told me your reasons....but I do not think you are very succesfull here...the other posters here come over far more educated on this subject...they have something you will never have, a personal experience. You on the other hand have a very predictable way of posting...I almost could tell what your answer would be to any question LOL
Comes to mind...does your family know about your hobby? Did your wife or daughter ever post here?
Maruska, Consider for a moment that we were speaking to people who were in massive car accidents (damaged by the industry). Some of the accidents were due to mechanical defects, some unknown and many others were self induced. All in all they may not be too happy with auto industry (in general) and some may even form a group to try to have it shut down. Even though they may have caused the accidents themselves or were DUI they still deny that they had anything to do with it and told everyone it was mechanical failure or their parents fault for not being better parents and anyone who says they enjoy driving must be brainwashed.
People like myself, who were never in a massive car accident but knew people who were, would be in a better position to see both side of the picture and therefore have a more flexible and better educated point of view and ultimately add more value to the conversation. The people damaged by the industry would only be able to see the negative aspects of the industry and therefore have a limited view of the overall discussion.
So I understand that people see me as the odd one and uneducated because I don't support their point of view and that is fine. I pretty much received that feedback my first week posting here. If you doubt what I say......ask a few people here at random what they feel the positive aspects of the industry are. Ask them to name 5. After a several second pause you will understand what I mean.
...
-
Oh..Ok..taking time for yourself means sit here and post on Fornits:))
You know , I try to understand you...I mean, you really are a very interesting person from a psychological point of view...I cannot imagine anobody who would spend years posting on a forum where people basicaly hate you or make fun of you...seems kind of weird, you know...
:shamrock: :shamrock:
Maybe he doesn't pay much to the attention as much as the message he is supporting. Very shallow comment to say the least.
Many did not like Abraham Lincoln for his views, many did not like O'Bama's Health Care Reform....ummmmm....
:shamrock: :shamrock:
I know, I know you told me your reasons....but I do not think you are very succesfull here...the other posters here come over far more educated on this subject...they have something you will never have, a personal experience. You on the other hand have a very predictable way of posting...I almost could tell what your answer would be to any question LOL
:shamrock: :shamrock:
Very predictable ways of posting and these supposed far more educated have a less predictable way of posting...????? Personal Experiences and I have plenty can sometimes keep you blinded for years.
:shamrock: :shamrock:
Comes to mind...does your family know about your hobby? Did your wife or daughter ever post here?
:shamrock: :shamrock:
Does your family, know about yours and so on. Personal questions thrown about so cavalierly.
:shamrock: :shamrock:
Danny
-
Danny does your lady friend know about your fornit addiction? :cheers: :cheers: :rasta: :peace: :jamin:
-
Danny, so you see Whooter as Abraham Lincoln ? :rofl:
Let me explain what I meant with predictable posting: I can learn a lot about this industry from most people here . Their personal experience is valuable. They know what they are talking about, because they lived it.
What can I learn from Whooter? Well....I know his opininon, I accept that he is entitled to such an opinion...but...why post it over and over again? He never contributes anything new, he spends years on this forum and uses the same program talk over and over ad nauseum...does he have a life outside this forum at all?
Actually, I feel a little sorry for him, that is all....I once had a student who reminds me of him..poor soul...oh well
But I will end this, I know this discussion is useless, I should have not started it at all...
I apologize.
-
Danny, so you see Whooter as Abraham Lincoln ? :rofl:
Let me explain what I meant with predictable posting: I can learn a lot about this industry from most people here . Their personal experience is valuable. They know what they are talking about, because they lived it.
What can I learn from Whooter? Well....I know his opininon, I accept that he is entitled to such an opinion...but...why post it over and over again? He never contributes anything new, he spends years on this forum and uses the same program talk over and over ad nauseum...does he have a life outside this forum at all?
Actually, I feel a little sorry for him, that is all....I once had a student who reminds me of him..poor soul...oh well
But I will end this, I know this discussion is useless, I should have not started it at all...
I apologize.
Dont beat yourself up. I dont take it personally. I use to ponder why people would post the same story over and over again myself. Some people here on fornits are from programs in the '70's, believe it or not. But it is not up to you and me to judge them because they find solitude posting here. We all have our own reasons for being here. I am sure you do too.
I dont have a beard in case you were wondering. But I consider myself honest.
...
-
Danny, so you see Whooter as Abraham Lincoln ? :rofl:
Let me explain what I meant with predictable posting: I can learn a lot about this industry from most people here . Their personal experience is valuable. They know what they are talking about, because they lived it.
What can I learn from Whooter? Well....I know his opininon, I accept that he is entitled to such an opinion...but...why post it over and over again? He never contributes anything new, he spends years on this forum and uses the same program talk over and over ad nauseum...does he have a life outside this forum at all?
Actually, I feel a little sorry for him, that is all....I once had a student who reminds me of him..poor soul...oh well
But I will end this, I know this discussion is useless, I should have not started it at all...
I apologize.
:feedtrolls:
-
...the studies are valid, conducted independently and overseen by a third party independent agency to insure there is no conflict of interest.
Links? Sources?? Who has assessed the validity of these "studies"? Were they published for peer-review? Is there a single longitudinal clinical study? Which "third-party independent agency" is overseeing these "studies"?
Lols... *crickets*
Another fact-free posting brought to you by Whooter, industry shill piece.
-
The above posts just go to show (and further support my belief) that it is valid to question other peoples motives for posting. Many feel I have not been truthful and that my own postings tell a different story than what I am saying. It is up to the individual reader to determine if a person's story is valid or not. I can only say what I have experienced, the rest is up to the readers.
I run into the same problem that Ursus, DJ and Anne have. I have read posts of people saying they were abused during their time in the program yet the specifics of their post just don't add up. I feel if I were abused I would notify the police after I left the program and name the abuser here on fornits. But most of the time this is not done. People would rather let the abuser run free (to abuse others) and just talk about it here on fornits. Why? How do they sleep at night? To many readers this would mean they are not being truthful and cant name the person because it didn’t happen. Maybe some people make up stories just to fit in better or be part of the group, who knows.
So I think it is left up to the individual readers (each and every time) to determine if a poster is being honest or not. Sometimes there just isn't any way to fact check or validate each person and their story. So we need to go with our gut like Ursus etal. mentioned above.
I don't recall ever saying that one "needs to go with one's gut" in the discourse thus far. Nor do I recall anyone else saying so, though I could be wrong on that.
Rather, it seems some folk here have chosen to highlight certain logical inconsistencies between your posting behavior and your avowed claims to be "merely a program parent."
Nothing more, nothing less.
-
The above posts just go to show (and further support my belief) that it is valid to question other peoples motives for posting. Many feel I have not been truthful and that my own postings tell a different story than what I am saying. It is up to the individual reader to determine if a person's story is valid or not. I can only say what I have experienced, the rest is up to the readers.
I run into the same problem that Ursus, DJ and Anne have. I have read posts of people saying they were abused during their time in the program yet the specifics of their post just don't add up. I feel if I were abused I would notify the police after I left the program and name the abuser here on fornits. But most of the time this is not done. People would rather let the abuser run free (to abuse others) and just talk about it here on fornits. Why? How do they sleep at night? To many readers this would mean they are not being truthful and cant name the person because it didn’t happen. Maybe some people make up stories just to fit in better or be part of the group, who knows.
So I think it is left up to the individual readers (each and every time) to determine if a poster is being honest or not. Sometimes there just isn't any way to fact check or validate each person and their story. So we need to go with our gut like Ursus etal. mentioned above.
I don't recall ever saying that one "needs to go with one's gut" in the discourse thus far. Nor do I recall anyone else saying so, though I could be wrong on that.
Rather, it seems some folk here have chosen to highlight certain logical inconsistencies between your posting behavior and your avowed claims to be "merely a program parent."
Nothing more, nothing less.
The word, gut, was my own. We take information from a story, bits and pieces here and there and with the absence of any hard facts we surmise (or use our gut as I call it). I do the same thing myself and I realize I may be right on some of my calls and others I may be wrong.
If people want to take a sound bite here and another one there and try to build a case that I am working for the industry then that is really all we have without knowing the facts. It isn’t hurtful towards anyone, really, and I think it helps many people here justify their own believes that the entire industry is evil and ineffective if they can paint me as being paid, by the industry, for what I do and diminish the impact of my position in their own minds.
To be fair I probably do the same thing myself, at times, without realizing it. Many of the details of survivor stories do not add up. Maybe they are mistakes or maybe they are telling.
...