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Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Jeff_Berryman on September 06, 2003, 01:23:00 PM

Title: Latest New York Times Piece
Post by: Jeff_Berryman on September 06, 2003, 01:23:00 PM
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/06/educa ... ner=GOOGLE (http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/06/education/06SCHO.html?ex=1063425600&en=586395075928d71a&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE)
Title: Latest New York Times Piece
Post by: Anonymous on September 06, 2003, 02:23:00 PM
It's good to see that Tim is finally showing SOME accountability, though the report is STILL slanting toward the negative.
Title: Latest New York Times Piece
Post by: Anonymous on September 06, 2003, 03:08:00 PM
WWASP ABUSES KIDS MENTALLY AND PHYSICALLY!!

YOU CANT HIDE FROM THE PUBLIC


WWASPS BEATS KIDS INTO SUBMISSION IF THEY DO NOT "COOPERATE".

TIME FOR FEDERAL ACTION, HAVE FUN
Title: Latest New York Times Piece
Post by: Anonymous on September 06, 2003, 03:11:00 PM
The founder, Robert B. Lichfield, 49, called the accusations part of a difficult business. "When you have troubled kids and troubled parents ? any school or program that works with troubled kids has complaints," Mr. Lichfield said in a telephone interview. "We're no different."

To that I agree!  

For the vast majority of graduates and parents, it changed our way of communicating with each other which I know is the single most important value in our family.

It didn't damage our family, it was already damaged.  I take accountability for what led up to his being admitted to Spring Creek Lodge.

And for the vast majority of parents that attend the personal growth seminars, we have been given a gift that gave us the tools to have a successful family life.  Success is always a personal definition, but I do know, even if I tried, really tried, I could never be the same parent I was prior to our program experience. I'm not making the same mistakes with my other son.

I never felt sleep deprived, I had 8 hours of sleep a night, what I felt was a huge weight had been lifted from my back.  I had carried around a lot of garbage for a long time.  For those not willing to take a deep look at their own lives, I can see where the process of digging deep would be not only uncomfortable, but impossible.  

It only works for those that are willing to change. The lawyer that thinks her son was abused, question?  Did your son not choose to stay in the Hobbit?  If he wasn't willing to follow the rules he chose to hide out in the hobbit and write all day.  He wasn't open to working.  Neither were you and it's good that you chose to bring him home.  It's not for you.  It was for us.

We went the distance and graduated, both in our own program.  Over two years later, life is what it is - lots of learning and growing.

My son was never drugged and his FR was honest, telling me things I would have preferred NOT to hear.  They've changed some things since then, maybe for the better, maybe only better for the parents, but I would never change our experience.
Title: Latest New York Times Piece
Post by: Cayo Hueso on September 06, 2003, 03:38:00 PM
"It only works for those that are willing to change. The lawyer that thinks her son was abused, question? Did your son not choose to stay in the Hobbit? If he wasn't willing to follow the rules he chose to hide out in the hobbit and write all day. He wasn't open to working. Neither were you and it's good that you chose to bring him home. It's not for you. It was for us."

How DARE you presume to know why a program did not work for someone else.  That's fine that you say the program worked for you, but you're putting the responsibility on the other person for the program not working...that's such a self-fulfilling prophecy.  If this program doesn;'t work, it's just because YOU don't want to dig deep enough.  BULLSHIT.  This type of condescending attitude is so typical of "program people".  If someone disagrees with "the program" then they're not honest, or just resentful, or not willing to work the program".  I am so sick of that shit.  Surprise, that's another sign of a cult attitude.  Can't even conceive that there might be a flaw in their precious program.  When you HONESTLY look at the treatment modalities of these programs...they are taken DIRECTLY from known cults!!!  Isolation, repetition, control of information, peer pressure...all of it.  If you are forced into a group for a period of months or years and outside communication is severely controlled and the only thing you are exposed to are these people who keep telling you how much they care and how wonderful their lives are now that they've accepted the program day in and day out...it's almost inevitable.  They have no other frame of reference and are thus vulnerable to the brainwashing.  What is being billed as a cure is a killer and now people are finally taking a stand and saying NO MORE.
Title: Latest New York Times Piece
Post by: Anonymous on September 06, 2003, 03:48:00 PM
"When you HONESTLY look at the treatment modalities of these programs...they are taken DIRECTLY from known cults!!! Isolation, repetition, control of information, peer pressure...all of it. If you are forced into a group for a period of months or years and outside communication is severely controlled..."

Can you tell me what JAIL/ Prison / Military means in all of this?  Same, different, what?  Difference to me is that the WWASPS programs actually help anyone that wants to change - what's CULT about that?
Title: Latest New York Times Piece
Post by: Anonymous on September 06, 2003, 03:50:00 PM
P.S. - What's PERFECT?  Of course there are flaws, imperfections.  Maybe the poster already knows that and just assumed she knows life isn't perfect nor fair.
Title: Latest New York Times Piece
Post by: Anonymous on September 06, 2003, 04:13:00 PM
"...but you're putting the responsibility on the other person for the program not working."

Response: In other words, THEY are supposed to do it for you? If not YOU, WHO?

I've never seen anywhere that they say it's a cure or even a fix.  Clue me in, I don't know everything.
Title: Latest New York Times Piece
Post by: Anonymous on September 06, 2003, 05:25:00 PM
Gee,  I was beginning to miss having all you WWASPies around the last few days.  

Another month, another dubious program exposed.   Can ya smell what the Sous Chef is cookin'?
Title: Latest New York Times Piece
Post by: Anonymous on September 06, 2003, 05:32:00 PM
Denial. Denial. Denial.

WWASP is a profitable cult damaging hundreds of families each year. How greedy can parents be to just leave their children in the hands of WWASP after learning their disturbing past. How many more facilities need to close, how many more abuse cases, how many more news articles need to be written before parents realize what the truth really is.
Title: Latest New York Times Piece
Post by: MelissaR on September 06, 2003, 05:45:00 PM
I really want to read the article! I think I'm in it!!!!!!! But the link won't work!
Title: Latest New York Times Piece
Post by: Anonymous on September 06, 2003, 05:48:00 PM
If punishment worked effectively to change people's behavior, we wouldn't have recidivism following prison -- which we do at a rate of about 66%, varying depending on the crime and educ background of the offender.

If WWASP people are saying "it only works if you work it," then why do you need something tough?

The gentle programs only work if you work it, too-- but they at least do not harm people.

If WWASP people are such great believers in accountablity, why don't they cringe when they read the Lichfields' blaming low level employees for any abuse that may occur and blaming the regulators and journalists for previous closures and blaming everyone but themselves when people don't do well?

If everyone makes their own reality, the WWASP people clearly aren't very good at it-- and if you want a program that teaches personal responsibility, why are you defending one where accountability doesn't start at the top?

WWASP is desperately spinning-- we're not going to use the hobbit anymore, the hobbit is fine, tough is good, we're not that tough, we are tougher than anyone, it was rogue employees, no it was the media, no it was someone who was disgruntled because she was over 30 and not married, no it was the evil Costa Rican prosecutor, we can fix your kid, no we can't fix anyone, we're therapy, no we're not, we're behavior modfication, no we're an emotional growth school, a military school... come on!
Title: Latest New York Times Piece
Post by: Cayo Hueso on September 06, 2003, 06:04:00 PM
Jail and the military don't restrict access to the outside world/family/friends for months or years at a time.  Military personnel and even prisoners are allowed to read the paper, watch the news, write or call family and friends...and by the way, the military is VOLUNTARY.

No, no one is supposed to change my life for me...I'm responsible.  The point I was making was that no matter what the actual reason for someone "not making it" in the program (I hate to even use that phrase, just because someone leaves a program doesn't mean they haven't "made it") the program people will always say it was because they didn't honestly work it, or dig deep enough or whatever, placing all the blame on the individual, not even considering that maybe there is something wrong with the program or that there may be other reasons.  It's just like the AA shit of "rarely have we seen a person fail who has truly followed our path" or however it goes.  That just sets someone up PLUS it's a load of shit.

If whatever program you or your family was in worked and your lives are better because of it, great but those of us who have been there KNOW what it's like.  I am 38 years old and STILL have nightmares, trouble dealing with confrontation, anger control and I had NONE of those problems before I was put in there.  I've seen a lot of abuse in my life but none as sinister as that of what I went through in there.  I love the way they set the kids up not to be believed by the parents...'now your druggie kid may try and play on your sympathies or make things up to try and get out of here, but don't listen...it's just they're druggie tendencies'. So, if a kid is truly being abused, as many of us were, how are we supposed to get any help???  And all this was done under the cloak of "helping the kids".  What a crock of shit.  Go read the story on http://www.thestraights.com (http://www.thestraights.com) about Lulu Corter and tell me how much of her THIRTEEN YEAR incarceration was because she wasn't digging deep enough.

Wake up
Title: Latest New York Times Piece
Post by: Anonymous on September 06, 2003, 07:49:00 PM
Sorry Melissa - you're not newsworthy enough, apparently - you're not in it.   :wink:
Title: Latest New York Times Piece
Post by: Anonymous on September 06, 2003, 07:51:00 PM
cayohuesto - which WWASPS program were you in?
Title: Latest New York Times Piece
Post by: Cayo Hueso on September 06, 2003, 07:56:00 PM
who is asking?
Title: Latest New York Times Piece
Post by: Antigen on September 06, 2003, 09:16:00 PM
Quote
On 2003-09-06 12:11:00, Anonymous wrote:

we have been given a gift that gave us the tools to have a successful family life. Success is always a personal definition, but I do know, even if I tried, really tried, I could never be the same parent I was prior to our program experience. I'm not making the same mistakes with my other son.


I never felt sleep deprived, I had 8 hours of sleep a night, what I felt was a huge weight had been lifted from my back. I had carried around a lot of garbage for a long time. For those not willing to take a deep look at their own lives, I can see where the process of digging deep would be not only uncomfortable, but impossible.


It only works for those that are willing to change.



See? It's this. This is what WWASP/Seed/Straight/KHK/AARC/SAFE/GT/PFC/Elan all have in common. Know who else? Apocolyptic cults, AA, Amway and Scientology. It's an unatainable higher purpose in which you have complete faith cause it can't be proven true or accomplished.

We should be careful to get out of an experience only the wisdom that is in it - and stop there;  lest we be like the cat that sits down on a hot stove-lid.  She will never sit down on a hot stove-lid again---and that is well;  but also she will never sit down on a cold one anymore.
Mark Twain

Title: Latest New York Times Piece
Post by: turbinekat on September 06, 2003, 09:51:00 PM
A company spokesman, James Wall, said it had always filed its federal income taxes properly. But Mr. Wall said Wwasps, which calls itself a nonprofit corporation in Utah, had never applied for nonprofit, tax-exempt status with the Internal Revenue Service.

The company says it does not directly own or control any of its affiliates, and claims no responsibility for their programs. But Spring Creek Lodge employees, for instance, say the program sends about 40 percent of its revenues to Wwasps.

Ginger,

You are absolutely correct in your this is it statement.  However, the above info is what is going to bring the pyramid down!!!  It appears that wwasps didn't provide Uncle Sammy with his cut too!!!  Oops!!!

Regards,

Lee
Title: Latest New York Times Piece
Post by: anon on September 06, 2003, 09:59:00 PM
[ This Message was edited by: KarenZ on 2003-10-18 13:11 ]
Title: Latest New York Times Piece
Post by: Antigen on September 06, 2003, 11:41:00 PM
Quote
On 2003-09-06 18:51:00, turbinekat wrote:



Ginger,



You are absolutely correct in your this is it statement.  However, the above info is what is going to bring the pyramid down!!!  It appears that wwasps didn't provide Uncle Sammy with his cut too!!!  Oops!!!



Regards,



Lee



"


Well, sure, WWASP (aka WWASPs), maybe, whatever legal entity type they are. And, hopefully, a few of the the Lichfields and Kays will get spanked pretty good. But just look at the zealot, religious devotion aparent in this scenareo.

Things are getting somewhat better. Finally, the media is starting to look at a dangerous cult even though they're only threatening children, not the government.

They're not doing it out of altruism, but of self interest. That's fine. The media belongs to us a whole lot more than the courts or legislature do.

Big brother is watching, sure. But he ain't looking out for us. That's not what they do.

I think the public interest that has been generated by the legal battle is going to be a lot more effective at actually busting up the cult than any settlements, legal sanctions or the hassle of shuffling names and paper around so they can pretend to not be WWASP anymore.

Now that we know that TOUGHLOVE is a hategroup, let's see if we can get the media to follow it up even after the feature performance is over.



It's said that the newspaper is how a community talks to itself. Rampant talking out in group is what's called for.

You can lead a camel to water but you can't make it stink (any more than it already does)
-- Job



_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
American drug war P.O.W.
   10/80 - 10/82
Straight South (Sarasota, FL)
Anonymity Anonymous
Title: Latest New York Times Piece
Post by: Anonymous on September 07, 2003, 01:30:00 AM
Does anyone else find it interesting that the two separate unhappy parents Tim reported on in the article are both lawyers?   :rofl:
Title: Latest New York Times Piece
Post by: Anonymous on September 07, 2003, 08:10:00 AM
No i dont find it interesting. The only interesting thing is your affiliation with WWASP.
Title: Latest New York Times Piece
Post by: anon on September 07, 2003, 11:25:00 AM
[ This Message was edited by: KarenZ on 2003-10-18 13:12 ]
Title: Latest New York Times Piece
Post by: Anonymous on September 07, 2003, 10:04:00 PM
If a program tells you to give us your kid and then go on vacation "you deserve it" AND write (your imprisioned child that you cannot check on at will and is not able to report abuse to authorites) a pretty postcard saying..."we're having a great time ..so glad you're NOT here"

-that is sadistic and imagine being abused, isolated, berated, and knowing that your God given advocates appear not to care -as instructed by the program! That is cult control!
or writing your kid out of your life via the "Exit Plan" in the absolutely most hopeless way possible again as instructed by the program!

it is said that the most vunerable to being controlled by a cult are the highly intelligent that think that they could not be...looks to be true.

.....what you've done to the least of me you've done to me....Jesus- the real Judge...
Title: Latest New York Times Piece
Post by: anon on September 07, 2003, 11:30:00 PM
[ This Message was edited by: KarenZ on 2003-10-18 13:13 ]
Title: Latest New York Times Piece
Post by: Carey on September 08, 2003, 09:25:00 AM
Quote
Does anyone else find it interesting that the two separate unhappy parents Tim reported on in the article are both lawyers?


I find this very interesting.  I have to wonder, what kind of attorney would sign the contract WWASP school's provide?  I am not an attorney, yet I could see that any parent who signed it was basically signing over their rights to be informed about the decisions being made regarding their child.
Title: Latest New York Times Piece
Post by: Anonymous on September 08, 2003, 10:34:00 AM
What I took from reading the NT Times article, noticing the comments from the two attornies,was that people much smarter,better educated than I ,they too were duped and suckered into the superior Marketing and salesmanship of Teen Help.

Vulnerable parents are not reading adequetly at the time they are "reading" the contract.I know we didnt. Teen Help depends on that fact.

Who would think a Speciality school could be so cruel.

Not a good excuse but a real one.

What I have taken from my Teen Help /WWASP experience is to not trust at all ever again.
Title: Latest New York Times Piece
Post by: Carey on September 08, 2003, 11:36:00 AM
Well if anyone should have known what they were getting into, it should have been the attorneys.  But then I suppose better educated does not necessarily mean smarter.  I suppose their common sense could have been missing as well.  The contracts state that the people making the decisions (at the programs) about whether or not a child should be put in OP were not trained or qualified to determine if or not it is/was necessary.

I think that there are alot of angry parents who paid a lot of money and got very little in return.  Too bad they did not do a better job reading what they were signing.  Maybe they too should be held accountable for neglect.

Falling for the marketing is one thing, falling for the contract is another.  The contract I saw spells it all out.

I wander if either of the attorneys hired escorts?

[ This Message was edited by: Carey on 2003-09-08 08:38 ]
Title: Latest New York Times Piece
Post by: Anonymous on September 08, 2003, 11:51:00 AM
I'm with Carey, "stupid is as stupid does".  Also, how about that "smart" parent in Canada who drugged her kid into submission so she would go "willingly" with her transporters into a program?  Why didn't the parents just escort their child themselves since she was clearly in no condition to resist?  

 :silly:
Title: Latest New York Times Piece
Post by: Anonymous on September 08, 2003, 12:41:00 PM
Quote
On 2003-09-08 06:25:00, Carey wrote:

"
Quote
Does anyone else find it interesting that the two separate unhappy parents Tim reported on in the article are both lawyers?



I find this very interesting.  I have to wonder, what kind of attorney would sign the contract WWASP school's provide?  I am not an attorney, yet I could see that any parent who signed it was basically signing over their rights to be informed about the decisions being made regarding their child.

"


someone desperate to help their child.  and, that someone upon further reflection, realized its a big scam.
Title: Latest New York Times Piece
Post by: Anonymous on September 08, 2003, 12:46:00 PM
Carey,
Please don't start being judgemental.  Those of us that sent our kids to a WWASP program agree that it was wrong.  We did fall for the lies and the marketing.  Are you saying that you never invested in something to find out that it was not what you thought it was?  When we go back and reread the contract now, it sounds so different than going over it with the friendly people at WWASP.  Have you ever put your child in time out?  Maybe a chair in a quiet place where they can calm down?  That is how OP was explained to me.  What is wrong with that?  Restraints?  If my child was going to hurt himself or others, I did agree that this would happen. You would do it yourself if you thought your child was going to be harmed.  

The marketing and the lies of WWASP are what we are all fighting against.  Why do you put down those of us that were taken in by it?  Why aren't you supporting us for trying to help others so that they don't go through what we and our children did?

Can you honestly say that you would have never fallen into what we did if you were the one trying to find a place for your child?  If you answer yes to this, we have found a new almighty leader!!
Title: Latest New York Times Piece
Post by: Antigen on September 08, 2003, 12:54:00 PM
Quote
On 2003-09-08 08:36:00, Carey wrote:

Maybe they [the parents] too should be held accountable for neglect.


I believe this is one of the primary reasons why most kids don't come rushing to the legal system when they first get out of a program. At least, it was the primary reason why I just said no to the HRS investigators when they asked if I wanted to pursue action against Straight.

I really wasn't mad at my parents over all of this. I thought they didn't get it (and they didn't) and I felt very sad and alone. But I had no interest whatever in punishing them or holding them accountable for what had happened. Part of that was plain confusion. I really wasn't sure who was right or wrong about what. All I knew for sure was that the program was very quickly making me crazy and I needed desperately to get out of that environment and to be safe from ever being sent back. I needed time to think and that would not have been possible if I'd jumped onto one side or another of this big legal brawl. And I damned sure wasn't about to play a role in helping all these various people use my parents to further their various agendas.

Remember that the kids who've just gotten out have no idea who any of us are. They haven't been allowed to keep up with the news and events of the day on any topic and most of them are not at all sure what they really think. They haven't been allowed to form their own opinions or draw their own conclusions about anything for a long while.

Karen, in the other thread you're asking kids who've been there to tell you how they feel about their parents now. I doubt you'll get any response at all from them, though I suspect some of the anon posts might be from those folks.

And the parents are in substantially the same situation. That's why, 20 years after the fact, I'm all for any legal or journalistic action that anyone wants voluntarily to pursue against an abusive program. It still brings tears to my eyes every time I find out about a parent who wises up and decides to take their kids' side. But I know I'm not in a position to tell anyone what they should or shouldn't do in that regard.

And I honestly don't think new laws or legal sanctions, in themselves, will make any big difference. It's not asif we're dealing with people who respect the law. They break the law every day, lie about it and use bribery, threats, intimidation, slap suits and other types of coercion and to cover their crimes.

I think the underlying problem is that there's a broad market demand for these types of services. They call their services "Help for troubled teens". What are they promising to help the teens to do? Essentially, they see teenagers who are unhappy with and unwilling to accept the way teens are treated as a problem. The way I see it, if a substantial number of teens are unhappy with the way they're treated and unwilling to go along with what we've got planned for them, there's probably something wrong with our plans for them. It's not asif just a few of them feel this way. It's an overwhelming majority.

And it's not just the teens, either. Aparently, judging by trends in advertising, there is a substantial market for adults who can't stand the company of their communities and will buy rather expensive pills to mute their anxieties so they can go through the motions of having a social life.

One theme keeps coming up over and over again in all of these discussions about the various programs (the Program, by any other name, would smell just as rancid). The world is different now. Times are changing. That's true.

When our parents were setting out to be parents, we'd just won WWII and they had every reason to believe their sacrifices would result in great promise and opportunity for us. If they could get us to just work hard, stay out of trouble, guard our reputations and pursue our dreams, we'd land up prosperous, happy and proud.

Now it's our turn. Can you honestly look your kid in the eye and tell them to go along with the school locker searches, metal detectors, DARE programs, 1-800-BE-A-SNITCH anonymous tip hotlines and all that entails? Can you promise them that just following orders and doing everything that's expected of them will result in a successful, happy and prosperous future? Can you tell them that our leaders are good, honest, forthright and moral people who they should respect? Can you honestly tell your own son that it is a good and nobel and honorable thing to go to Columbia or Iraq as a soldier to kill and die for the American Way and that all of their friends who would rather go dance at a rave are evil and bad?

They're not buying it. They're angry with the way things are going and doing everything they can to subvert the process by which we, as a society, try to force them into playing their part in it all. THAT is the "problem" that the Program seeks to correct. The real problem is not with the kids who are trying to escape.

The real problem is that we are not doing a very good job of helping kids figure out a better way. Program dogma, requires that we force them into the one path that we've chosen for them by creating intolerable artificial consequences for every other possible option. We need to quit doing that.

We're the grown ups now. We're the parents. It's our job to give our kids everything they need until they are able to get it for themselves. It's not our job to police them to make sure they're puruing John Ashcroft's dream or living up the the expectations of the cop hired to deliver the DARE program. It's our job to pass on the best of what our parents had to offer us, even if (especially if) the schoolpeople are trying hard to beat that out of them. It's their job to figure out what's worth passing on to their own kids and to improve on our work.
 




"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
"Isn't your pants' zipper supposed to be in the front?"
--Hobbs to Calvin

Title: Latest New York Times Piece
Post by: Antigen on September 08, 2003, 01:13:00 PM
Quote
On 2003-09-08 09:46:00, Anonymous wrote:

The marketing and the lies of WWASP are what we are all fighting against. Why do you put down those of us that were taken in by it? Why aren't you supporting us for trying to help others so that they don't go through what we and our children did?


Anon, let me give you a corollary. My daughter has become pretty good friends with her old friend's girlfriend since we moved up here. Just around a week or so ago, that romance ended explosively. This boy is one who, for some reason I can't explain, just really found a place in my heart years ago when we knew him in Florida. If I'd met him now, I really don't think I'd feel the same way about him. But then, if frogs had wings, they wouldn't bump their butts on the ground when they hopped.

The girlfriend is still around our place as often as my daughter is over at hers and we've started to get to know her dad. Seems like an alright guy.

If I were in his shoes, I'd want to strangle the little prick in question too. I'm sure I'd be completely unwilling to consider his feelings or his side of it or even the remote possibility that this kid will ever get his act together. But I'm not the ex-girlfriend's father, I'm the aging hippy who, no matter what, this kid has been able to count on for an honest opinion and a cup of coffee, soup or an aspirin since he was around 15. I can't be mad at him. Well, I can, but not so much as I'm worried about him and pulling for him. I do NOT feel the same way about my daughter's ex-boyfriend, to whom we refer as Psycho Boy.

I think Carey's in substantially the same position wrt Program parents as this gal's dad is wrt this boy. The rest of ya'll have a different set of variables to balance into the equation.

In all life one should comfort the afflicted, but verily, also, one should afflict the comfortable, and especially when they are comfortably, contentedly, even happily wrong

--John Kenneth Galbraith

Title: Latest New York Times Piece
Post by: Anonymous on September 08, 2003, 02:14:00 PM
Quote
Can you honestly say that you would have never fallen into what we did if you were the one trying to find a place for your child?


I can honestly say I would NEVER leave my child in a place that tells me that I am not allowed to have contact with them. When my children were little,I chose not to work because they were to youg to talk.  I did not want to have to worry that someone may be abusing them and that they would not have a way of telling me that.  Well, I do not think leaving teenagers in a place that cuts off communication with parents is any different.  

No, I would not have fallen for "the program."  I prefer that my kids make their own mistakes and suffer their own consequences, the legal and binding ones that are in place in society today.
Title: Latest New York Times Piece
Post by: Carey on September 08, 2003, 02:15:00 PM
That was me.
Title: Latest New York Times Piece
Post by: Anonymous on September 08, 2003, 03:18:00 PM
Carey - where did you get the idea that you couldn't have contact with your child?  Isn't there unlimited letter writing and unless there's a legal reason why you can't see them, you can... unless you follow their recommendation that if it's important to your kid to get the points to earn the visit you'll wait? I do think that waiting can be a long process, so maybe they'll change that recommendation?
Title: Latest New York Times Piece
Post by: Anonymous on September 08, 2003, 03:43:00 PM
Carey,
"I would NEVER leave my child in a place that tells me that I am not allowed to have contact with them."

I wouldn't either.  I was never told that I couldn't have contact with my child.  I, as many others, thought that we were sending them to a boarding school.  A wonderful place where they would experience wonderful things.  

Remember, when you call up any of the WWASP affiliates and tell them what you are looking for in a school for your child, that they will lie to you and tell you that this one or that one is the perfect place for your child.

I didn't fall for a "program".  I was told that these were boarding schools with great opportunities for your child.  That is why we are trying to hold WWASP accountable for their marketing.  They list themselves as boarding schools, military schools, etc.  

I guarantee, that if you were looking for a place for your child, and you would have talked with WWASP as many of us did and talked with all the parent references(not knowing that they were kool-aid drinkers), that you to may have sent your child to a WWASP school.

We all should learn from our mistakes.   Don't put us down for what we did, work with us to make sure this doesn't happen to others.
Title: Latest New York Times Piece
Post by: MelissaR on September 08, 2003, 04:31:00 PM
What do you mean, "Kool Aid drinkers?"
Title: Latest New York Times Piece
Post by: Carey on September 08, 2003, 04:39:00 PM
Quote
I wouldn't either. I was never told that I couldn't have contact with my child.

You must have signed a different contract than the one I saw.  The one I saw was presented in court and it outlined what had to happen before communication was allowed. (I don't consider letters to be an adequate form of communication, especially given the nature of these programs.  There is to high of a risk for abuse in programs that are not monitored by any outside child protective agencies.)

Quote
I, as many others, thought that we were sending them to a boarding school. A wonderful place where they would experience wonderful things.



You have got to be kidding.  You read the contract and you thought you were sending them to a regular boarding school.  Come on.  You are only fooling yourself.

[ This Message was edited by: Carey on 2003-09-08 13:41 ]
Title: Latest New York Times Piece
Post by: Antigen on September 08, 2003, 04:42:00 PM
It's a reference to Jim Jones and the purpole kool-aid used as a medium for the poison the People's Temple folks drank.

The greater the ignorance the greater the dogmatism.


--William Osler

Title: Latest New York Times Piece
Post by: MelissaR on September 08, 2003, 07:52:00 PM
I am totally infuriated by Tim's article. He TOTALLY pussed out. Sorry for that, but I'm at a complete lack of better words. I'm soo irritated, I was interviewed and nothing even pertinent to what the scope of the article originally was about is even remotely close to the questions I was asked. I understand his job is on the line, but his job is to report unbiased news. Too bad for WWASP that unbiased news is the fact they beat and torture teens. Enough said.
Title: Latest New York Times Piece
Post by: spots on September 08, 2003, 09:40:00 PM
Melissa, I had a very very different take on Tim Weiner's Spring Creek Lodge article.  I was even surprised that some anonymous WWASPie came on this forum and said she was sort of "pleased" with the article as being "better", somehow than his previous ones on Casa, Dundee, and TB. It's a pretty potent look at the badness of WWASPS.

Tim's job is not "on the line", and his job is not to report unbiased news.  He has a strong personal opinion, but his job is to give both sides of the story...not unbiased, just 2 sides.  However, think about Joe Normal drinking his morning coffee and reading the NYT:  
-"...parents swear with near-religious devotion...others have come to curse it." [good lead-in, incriminating]
-"...staff accused of sexual abuse, physical violence and psychological duress."
-some children and parents call physically and psycholgically brutal."
-South Carolina is fighting (4 years worth.  The State hates WWASPS and is trying to shut them down.)
-Even Utah "officials are wrestling" with unliscensed Cross Creek and Majestic.
-the Feds are "taking a look" at tax irregularities.  [This is how the Feds eventually broke the Mob and did in Al Capone...taxes!]
-Montana says "We'll get action after there's a crisis".  Joe Normal says, "...whoa, they're expecting a riot or something like Costa Rica."
-about the Hobbit, "...When he came back, he was worse, far worse."
-reports of sexual assaults, beatings, escapes [but Tim didn't mention the $1000 reward to local ranchers catching runaways].
-the story about Vermillion Bridge (which I've known about for some time)..."Mentally, they do damage. Emotionally, too" says a former staffer.

Jeez, I think this is a strong article.  If Tim just quoted you that "they beat and torture teens", Joe Normal wouldn't believe it.  It is unbelievable, these accusations, while you're drinking your morning coffee.  

Trust me, Tim Weiner and the influence of the New York times running continuting coverage of WWASPS WILL MAKE A DIFFERENCE.  The 5 or so Anaonymous pro-WWASPS posters on this forum can stomp and froth all they want, but the 50 million or so folks who read the NY Times and the associated news groups will believe and do something, if it becomes believeable.  

Maybe not sensational enough for you right now, but these articles are the stuff of action.  Give Mr. Weiner credit where credit is due.  He is the greatest ally you can ask for, and I sincerely hope he is awarded his third Pulitzer Prize when WWASPS falls.
Title: Latest New York Times Piece
Post by: MelissaR on September 08, 2003, 10:14:00 PM
Point taken, yet, I'm failing to understand why he did not use any of the information I provided. Especially information pertinent to the academics at SCL. I'm frustrated because it seems as though people want to make SCL out to be "not as bad as the others." When in reality, it is just as bad or worse than the other facilities in certain areas. It seems that people are using Spring Creek Lodge as a backdoor, saying "SCL is better, they don't beat kids..." They do, I saw one girl have her jaw broken by several support staff and several family reps in 2002, right before I left.
Title: Latest New York Times Piece
Post by: anon on September 08, 2003, 10:15:00 PM
[ This Message was edited by: KarenZ on 2003-10-18 13:17 ]
Title: Latest New York Times Piece
Post by: Anonymous on September 08, 2003, 11:25:00 PM
Karen wrote:But what dose that say about a parent who can read that article, think it fair and accurate - and still sing the program's praises?"


Karen where did you get the idea we think it's fair and accurate?  It's neither, balanced maybe!

Suffice it to say that two sue-happy lawyers, fired employees and a pissed off troubled teen made the story.

Damn, I think I'll go scream and beat on a chair. or maybe I'll call Rose Mary Hinsch in Phoenix...whoops, wrong again.  She doesn't live there, never did :rofl:
Title: Latest New York Times Piece
Post by: spots on September 09, 2003, 01:15:00 AM
It is interesting to read an unfavorable response from a person admiring WWASPS.  Somehow, in the 5 pages of what I consider to be "WOW...read this stuff!!!!" information, this person has twice made references to the inconsistencies and therefore-proveable inaccuracies in the New York Times article because he mid-identified (or wrongly located) a certain Rose Mary Hinsch, purportedly a school teacher in Phoenix.  Perhaps Ms. Hinsch lives in Seattle or Minneapolis.  Certainly one could juxtapose this error and therefore conclude that the whole witnessed/documented/verified article with quotes from extremely involved parents, government officials, and even WWASPS functionaries is to be discarded.

Joe Normal only needs to remember the behavior modification school in ...somewhere...maybe, Montana or Utah or somewhere...that was just like the ones in Mexico, Costa Rica and Jamaica that he's been reading about this summer.  Joe Normal asks, "By the way, didn't Pete Whats-His-Name down in Accounting talk about sending his kid to one of those places?  Wonder if he knows what's really happening?
Title: Latest New York Times Piece
Post by: Anonymous on September 09, 2003, 01:44:00 AM
"But the seminars persuaded Michele Ziperovich to pull her son Alex out. "It was 300 adults screaming and beating on chairs, three days of no sleep, and after that, you'll buy into whatever they say," Ms. Ziperovich said. "They berate you, they scream at you, exhaust you. It's basically mind control."

 :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:


So Ms. Lawyer went to all three days/nights of the seminar, never slept and was yelled at and berated?  I looked on the Resource realizations site and they do have time to sleep, at least 8 hours?  It looks like your run of the mill personal growth seminar to me.  

Yep, sue-happy, I agree.
Title: Latest New York Times Piece
Post by: Anonymous on September 09, 2003, 09:26:00 AM
Run of the mill personal growth seminars use sleep deprivation etc... and have been linked with lasting psychological damage.
Title: Latest New York Times Piece
Post by: Anonymous on September 09, 2003, 09:50:00 AM
You may be accustomed to "working" from 8:00Am to midnight (and thus getting 8 hours sleep time) but most people will will experience it as fatiguing, particularly under the stress inducing conditions of the seminar.

Moreover,  please consider that the parent seminar -- while obviously intended to be a form of brainwashing -- is also intended to be a milder, water-down form of brainwashing.

Obviously,  if the parent seminars were conducted under the conditions which prevail in the WWASP institutions (eg., if they forced the parents to sleep in a common dorm with the lights on, and twisted their arms behind their back for side talking, or if they weren't in their seats by the time the music stops, they'd be forced to listen to motivational tapes, etc.),  they might get wind of the true nature of what their kids were going thru.  That would defeat the real purpose of the seminar -- which is to subject the parents to a 3 day informercial.
Title: Latest New York Times Piece
Post by: anon on September 09, 2003, 10:45:00 AM
[ This Message was edited by: KarenZ on 2003-10-18 13:18 ]
Title: Latest New York Times Piece
Post by: Antigen on September 09, 2003, 11:30:00 AM
For the record, they did this at Straight, but not at The Seed. The Seed only required parents attend open meetings and host newcomers in their homes when their kids were oldcomers. When the shit hit the fan in around `76 or so, The Seed went more-or-less underground and did not hang onto their Federal funding.

Straight came up with two open meetings per week w/ open meeting review which could last till 2 or 3AM easy and longer first phase (hence more months spent w/o proper sleep or any free time outside of meeting program obligations) None of us were sleeping more than 2 - 3 hours per night, including our parents.

Then there was the Parent Weekend, which they still do at SAFE, KHK, PFC and likely some others. Same song and dance. And you're right, they tell the parents that this is just what their kids are going through. But there are two major differences; 1) of COURSE they don't throw the parents on the floor and sit on them if they won't comply. and 2) at any given moment, the parents can decide to take their kids and step away from the lunatics. The kids have no such choice, no matter what, broken bones, serious illness, rape... doesn't matter. The parents are held captive mentally and emotionally for as long as they buy into it. The kids are held physically captive till they break down mentally and emotionally.


The mind is not a vessel to be filled but a fire to be kindled.
-- Plutarch

Title: Latest New York Times Piece
Post by: Anonymous on September 09, 2003, 03:52:00 PM
Quote
On 2003-09-09 06:26:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Run of the mill personal growth seminars use sleep deprivation etc... and have been linked with lasting psychological damage.  "


Just a thought to ponder:  Why did Oprah have a series on almost identical seminars facilitated by Dr. Phil a couple of years ago?  Only a handful of people thought he was being too rough, etc., the majority got a lot out of it?

Call it mass media brainwashing if you want to.  I don't buy the brainwashing in the negative sense.
Title: Latest New York Times Piece
Post by: Antigen on September 09, 2003, 04:09:00 PM
If daytime talkshow hosts serve as your moral and social benchmark, you've got some real problems. Are you one of those people who sometimes has difficulty distinguishing between soap opera characters and real, live people?

I highly recomend you switch to late night talkshow hosts like Jon Stewart and Bill Maher. At least they're somewhat intelligent and have some sense of reality.

 :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:

you Momma is a big fat's ________
--Leroy Brown

Title: Latest New York Times Piece
Post by: Anonymous on September 09, 2003, 04:53:00 PM
Quote
On 2003-09-09 13:09:00, Antigen wrote:

"If daytime talkshow hosts serve as your moral and social benchmark, you've got some real problems. Are you one of those people who sometimes has difficulty distinguishing between soap opera characters and real, live people?




No Antigen - you're assuming.  I had been off work, out of surgery and read books most of the time, but did watch Oprah and enjoyed that series.  It basically mirrored what I've read on the resource realizations site and what program parents say about it.  It was just a question, No...television is not a chosen medium for my moral and social benchmark.  Hey, maybe if I had watched in on Jerry springer you would have valid point!
Title: Latest New York Times Piece
Post by: Antigen on September 09, 2003, 05:11:00 PM
Then the fact that Oprah endorses these seminars does not constitute proof of legitimacy, right?

So then.... why bring it up?

BTW, Oprah also did a series of promotional fluff pieces on Buffalo Soldiers. Of course, that was before director Charles Long II was indicted for second degree murder in the death of Anthony Haynes.

No one complained about the brutal treatment of kids as young a 9 at the time, either. As far as I know, Oprah has never issued any kind of apology or retraction of her endorsement of that death camp.

When I started as a federal narcotics agent, the budget that we were working with, it was less than $5 million a year, and there was only 125 agents for the entire world to work the narcotic trade that we were fighting in those days.  Times have changed.  The gluttony has grown.
--Nick Navarro, former Broward, FL Sherrif

Title: Latest New York Times Piece
Post by: MelissaR on September 09, 2003, 05:15:00 PM
Oprah honestly endorses TASKS? Did I hear that incorrectly?
Title: Latest New York Times Piece
Post by: Antigen on September 09, 2003, 05:33:00 PM
Actually, I was thinking of Buffalo Soldiers

http://clubs.calvin.edu/chimes/2002.02.22/wor4.html (http://clubs.calvin.edu/chimes/2002.02.22/wor4.html)

But I don't know the specific program Oprah endorsed. I think it might have been Buffalo Soldiers. After all, Collin Powell has done a few paid endorsement appearances for that one. That's almost as good a credential as Nancy Reagan bringing Princess Di to Straight, isn't it?

I only read about it, never watched the shows. To tell you the truth, Oprah, Maurey and, to some extent, even Phil caused in me the same allergic reaction as DARE, Dr. Phil and other things that have that Program smell. I honestly got nausious trying to watch the stuff looking for clues.

Man! I guess I'm not the only one who feels this way, either.

http://talkshows.about.com/library/weekly/aa051200a.htm (http://talkshows.about.com/library/weekly/aa051200a.htm)

It continues to amaze me to talk to law students -- college
graduates all and smarter than the average bear -- who will
seriously tell me about how dangerous mj is and how it
destroys the lives of those who use it and who, in the
very next sentence, will tell me how they and their
friends -- now CPAs, engineers, med students -- used
pot regularly through high school and college.  And
they don't see the contradiction between these statements.

We're not just talking ignorance here -- we are talking
deep down, serious, religious indoctrination.


--Buford C. Terrell, Professor of Law, South Texas College of Law



_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
American drug war P.O.W.
   10/80 - 10/82
Straight South (Sarasota, FL)
Anonymity Anonymous
Title: Latest New York Times Piece
Post by: Anonymous on September 09, 2003, 08:18:00 PM
oprah doesnt endorse TASKS, infact oprah is considering revealing the truth of abuse that WWASPS is committing.

Its all coming your way, the media is getting ready for a HUGE strike on wwasps.

They can feel it, and we see it.

 :wave:
Title: Latest New York Times Piece
Post by: Anonymous on September 09, 2003, 10:30:00 PM
Anon,

I find it intersting that YOU insinuate the two lawyers and their families mentioned in the NY Times article are "sue happy." How would you know that?

Also interesting, you do not mention Litchfield's lack of ACCOUNTABILITY to the fact four of his facilities have been closed due to allegations of abuse, negligence.Do you not see a Pattern of mistreatment of children within their facilities?

One of the lawyer's child "lost 35 lbs from eating banans and beans.'

 My child told me similar stories.Food was withheld as punishment.

The girls are so "drugged they are like dead animals." My child expereinced that too.

The Doctor wasnt a Dr at all.

Who ever you are Anon from Utah, you're missing the true message. Kids are being ABUSED.

Lichfield and Friends are accountable for the end results of their business.

"Sue-happy."  You have'nt seen anything YET!
Title: Latest New York Times Piece
Post by: Anonymous on September 10, 2003, 09:24:00 AM
what is interesting to me is that if the bridge incident is so easy then why have all you parents not heard of it before? I read that you're all asking your kids now. I've been told that they tell kids when blindfolded tht they are getting pushed off a cliff not a short fall to the water. and you would think that the kids would tell their parents because it may have been their only excursion off-site so it would seem to be memorable unless they were told not to.
Title: Latest New York Times Piece
Post by: Anonymous on September 10, 2003, 11:55:00 AM
"World Wide Association of speciality schools and programs"  is being sued for allegations of physical and mental torture. Wwasp even hires staff to sexualy abuse the girls also.

There faudulent buisness of wwasp is gonna be impacted like no other buisness in the inustry of teens. These people have no where to go, and they also dont see the future of wwasps.

YOU CANT BEAT KIDS YOUR WHOLE LIFE WWASPS!!!
Title: Latest New York Times Piece
Post by: Anonymous on September 10, 2003, 01:42:00 PM
WHAT LAWSUIT?

 :???:
Title: Latest New York Times Piece
Post by: Anonymous on September 10, 2003, 03:37:00 PM
the lawsuit that is being put together so massive that its not gonna be filed without making sure wwasp is responsible.

 :eek:
Title: Latest New York Times Piece
Post by: Anonymous on September 12, 2003, 01:20:00 PM
http://www.wwasprebuttal.com/get_the_facts.html (http://www.wwasprebuttal.com/get_the_facts.html)

The latest New York Times Article is craftily written to promote lies and deceptions.

 

For example:

 

The New York Times implies that four WWASPS Affiliated Programs have been
shut down due to cruelty. This is simply not true.

 

The New York Times also stated that Spring Creek Lodge sends about 40 % of
it?s revenue to WWASPS. Actually WWASPS only receives less than 3 percent of
SCL revenue to fund Parent Seminars and other needed Services for the
School.

 

The New York Times also stated that Majestic ranch had a Staff charged with abuse yet failed to mention after further review all charges have been dropped.
 

Robert Lichfield stated that Mr. Weiner bold faced misrepresented me. For
example: I never said that ? only Satan stood in the way of the programs
goals?. I have in the past said that I believe God has helped these programs
to become effective options for struggling teens and that any program that
reunites families, gets teens away from negative influences, and encourages
students to seek a higher source will meet strong resistance from the darkest of forces.

 

I also pointed out that all programs that work with struggling Teens have
occasional complaints and students who didn?t like being there. These
Programs are no different but what sets WWASPS Programs apart from other
options is the high number of Pleased and Supportive Parents. It?s like the
media goes out of their way to find the few dissenters while ignoring the
vast supporters.

 

Mr. Weiner also stated that I became a Director of Residential Programs at a
Utah Institution for teenagers that was subsequently closed by the State for
cruelty to children.

This is totally false. I have no idea where he got this idea. The good thing
is I had a witness on the phone to everything that was said
Title: Latest New York Times Piece
Post by: Anonymous on September 12, 2003, 02:03:00 PM
Well Well Well. is that mr RObert litchfield speaking?

SO NICE TO HEAR FROM THE PEOPLE THAT ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE ABUSIVE CRIMES WWASPS COMIITS EVERY DAY ON OUR AMERICAN CHILDREN.

IF ANYONE WANTS TO SEE THE FACES OF CHILD ABUSERS OF WWASP THEN CLICK HERE..

http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/des ... rate.shtml (http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/desperate/site-desperate/mpg6-desperate.shtml)
Title: Latest New York Times Piece
Post by: Anonymous on September 12, 2003, 02:12:00 PM
AND YES, ROBERT LITCHFIELD'S FIRST PROGRAM IN ST/ GEORGE UTAH WAS SHUT DOWN BY POLICE BECAUSE THEY FOUND OUT HE WAS BEATING THE KIDS.

4 WWASPS FACILITY'S WERE SHUT DOWN FOR ABUSE

Teen Help activities touched off investigations by law enforcement or regulatory agencies in several states -- including Utah, South Carolina and Ohio -- and three foreign countries -- Mexico, the Czech Republic and Western Samoa. Facilities in Utah, Mexico and the Czech Republic were closed.
Title: Latest New York Times Piece
Post by: Anonymous on September 12, 2003, 02:18:00 PM
Quote
On 2003-09-12 11:03:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Well Well Well. is that mr RObert litchfield speaking?



SO NICE TO HEAR FROM THE PEOPLE THAT ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE ABUSIVE CRIMES WWASPS COMIITS EVERY DAY ON OUR AMERICAN CHILDREN.



IF ANYONE WANTS TO SEE THE FACES OF CHILD ABUSERS OF WWASP THEN CLICK HERE..



http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/des ... rate.shtml (http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/desperate/site-desperate/mpg6-desperate.shtml)"


Isn't this article from 1999?
Title: Latest New York Times Piece
Post by: Anonymous on September 12, 2003, 02:51:00 PM
Quote
On 2003-09-12 11:12:00, Anonymous wrote:

"AND YES, ROBERT LITCHFIELD'S FIRST PROGRAM IN ST/ GEORGE UTAH WAS SHUT DOWN BY POLICE BECAUSE THEY FOUND OUT HE WAS BEATING THE KIDS.



4 WWASPS FACILITY'S WERE SHUT DOWN FOR ABUSE



Teen Help activities touched off investigations by law enforcement or regulatory agencies in several states -- including Utah, South Carolina and Ohio -- and three foreign countries -- Mexico, the Czech Republic and Western Samoa. Facilities in Utah, Mexico and the Czech Republic were closed.

"


Is this an assumption or is it true - Any links to provide this as fact or simply allegation?
Title: Latest New York Times Piece
Post by: Anonymous on September 12, 2003, 05:17:00 PM
http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/des ... rate.shtml (http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/desperate/site-desperate/mpg6-desperate.shtml)

this is the truth you criminals
Title: Latest New York Times Piece
Post by: Anonymous on September 12, 2003, 06:48:00 PM
think Mr lichfields first experience working with trouble kids was at Provo Canyon- for his inlaws - with Karr Farnsworth....

most of these programs closed as the regulators were closing in...then it's easy to say...nothing is proven.
Title: Latest New York Times Piece
Post by: Anonymous on September 12, 2003, 07:10:00 PM
of course the programs do not send 40% of the revenues to WWASP - because it doesn't come to them in the first place...parents send their monies to it  R&B (Robert and Brent) billing registered to Jennifer Christianson, Korby and Mandy Facer (Brent's kids) with the state of Utah....then they send part to the progams...and then I would guess the amount would be closer to 25-30% of the monies...

R&B must think it doesn't require much cash when you pay locals a dollar or two and hour to serve up their program.  :eek:
Title: Latest New York Times Piece
Post by: Anonymous on September 12, 2003, 07:42:00 PM
That's interesting to say the least.  An article from 1999 saying the same things, basically, as the NY Times article.  So people are STILL upset about the same stuff? so with regular inspections, parents on campus every day, the several hundred of graduates since that was written 4 years ago...and there's really only a handful of parent and child "victims?"  It just doesn't wash.  

I read the info on the the Teen Help fees.  Don't ALL educational consulting firms charge a few thousand dollars to refer to the programs they contract with and aren't those programs usually double the tuition of wwasp with the same allegations of abuse from their troubled teens?  I guess I'm looking at it differently than what I read from most on this board.

And, what's the Big Whoop about the seminars?  If someone is opposed to letting go of crap that they been hanging onto for most of their lives...then don't go!  Don't admit your kid to a behavior change program!  It's that simple!

The only "stupid" parents are the ones that think their kid is just going away for a while to cool off and learn their lesson. What the hell do you think programs are for anyway?

So if NOTHING has changed in 4 years, it must work pretty good.  Maybe things have changed and you're still stuck in the year 1999?  :wink:
Title: Latest New York Times Piece
Post by: Antigen on September 12, 2003, 07:57:00 PM
Quote
On 2003-09-12 16:42:00, Anonymous wrote:

and there's really only a handful of parent and child "victims?"...


Who are so outraged over the crimes committed against them, who are on good enough terms to work together against the perpetrators, who still have enough money to pursue legal action and who are willing to go through the mountain of bullshit that organizations like WWASP, Scientology and the Semblers routinely heap on their critics.

When I was in these folks' shoes a couple of decades ago, I didn't realize that all these years later these same lunatics would be escalating their abuse and expanding their operations and I really didn't want to take part in anyone's war. I just wanted to get some space, breath, get on my feet and go on with my life.

Had I known that the brainwashed masses were using my silence as a marketting tool to sucker in the next generation, I would certainly have more seriously considered making some noise back then.

Being sleepy can impair someone's ability to do thier job.  People
can sleep at home and come to the job with sleepiness still in their system. The sleepiness can still be there long after the employee has slept. When someone is found to be sleepy on the job, they can claim that they went to sleep the night before.  The only solution to this problem is to ban employees from sleeping.

--Arthur Slabosky

Title: Latest New York Times Piece
Post by: anon on September 12, 2003, 11:03:00 PM
There used to be a phrase reffering to the lack of outcry - the Silent Majority.
Title: Latest New York Times Piece
Post by: Anonymous on September 13, 2003, 04:09:00 AM
The U.S. Congress also has taken interest in the Utah-based WorldWide Association of Specialty Programs (WWASP), the behavior-modification umbrella organization to which Dundee belonged.

House Representative George Miller of California, the ranking Democrat on the House Education Committee, last month asked the Internal Revenue Service (IRS) to review WWASP's tax-exempt status and investigate whether the organization has received any special tax treatment in the past.

One of Rep. Miller's congressional aides said this week that the congressman also is preparing to ask U.S. Attorney General John Ashcroft to open a federal criminal investigation into alleged child mistreatment at WWASP programs  -
Title: Latest New York Times Piece
Post by: Anonymous on September 13, 2003, 02:02:00 PM
Ginger,

Thank you for your support.

You are making a differnce in this fight against the Teen Help industry through your website.This Forum.

There is a healing process taking place by reading expressing onesself.

I believe we have been given this responsibilty for a reason.I don't fully understand , but I believe.

"Never doubt that a Small Group of thoughtful,committed citizens can change the world.  Margret Mead
Title: Latest New York Times Piece
Post by: Antigen on September 13, 2003, 02:06:00 PM
You are SO welcome!  :nworthy:

Being a street cop, witnessing the tragedy firsthand, I've become
convinced that drug prohibition -- not drugs themselves -- are driving the HIV epidemic and the systemic crime that has swamped our criminal justice systems.
--Vancouver Police Const. Gil Puder

Title: Latest New York Times Piece
Post by: Anonymous on September 13, 2003, 04:07:00 PM
The U.S. Congress also has taken interest in the Utah-based WorldWide Association of Specialty Programs (WWASP), the behavior-modification umbrella organization to which Dundee belonged.

House Representative George Miller of California, the ranking Democrat on the House Education Committee, last month asked the Internal Revenue Service (IRS) to review WWASP's tax-exempt status and investigate whether the organization has received any special tax treatment in the past.

One of Rep. Miller's congressional aides said this week that the congressman also is preparing to ask U.S. Attorney General John Ashcroft to open a federal criminal investigation into alleged child mistreatment at WWASP programs      .
Title: Latest New York Times Piece
Post by: Antigen on September 13, 2003, 06:07:00 PM
We get it! We're thrilled! Just post a link to more info. Those who are interested will read, discuss, go into apaplectic convulsions or whatever. But please, this is just getting boring.

The most fundamental fact about the ideas of the political left is that they do not work. Therefore we should not be surprised to find the left concentrated in institutions where ideas do not have to work in order to survive.


--Thomas Sowell

Title: Latest New York Times Piece
Post by: Anonymous on September 14, 2003, 02:38:00 PM
Don't know if this is relevant or not.  One of the parents in the NY Times article is on the PURE parent volunteer list,  Michele Ziperovich, the lawyer from Seattle.
Title: Latest New York Times Piece
Post by: MelissaR on September 14, 2003, 02:56:00 PM
Yah that is semi- relevant. I guess at this point, anything that is going to bring WWASP down is a step in the right direction. I personally believe that there is no healthy teen incarceration, but if it takes a little give and take to get somewhere.....it's better than nowhere.
Title: Latest New York Times Piece
Post by: Antigen on September 14, 2003, 04:36:00 PM
I just found out that vindictive hate for childern (http://www.therant.info/archives/000008.html#back6) and for his long-term involvement in Bill Gothard's Institute of Basic Life Principles (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=%22assemblies+of+god%22+iblp) and, oddly enough (or not), this organization just happens to have spread like a bad case of black mold to Australia; you know, where Melvin Sembler used to reside in public housing.

Curiouser and curiouser, eh?


Web pages are like babies -- creation involves a level of enthusiasm that does not necessarily carry over into maintenance.
--Joe Chew

Title: Latest New York Times Piece
Post by: Anonymous on September 14, 2003, 05:15:00 PM
In a 1999 interview with The Rocky Mountain News, however, Kay, who at that time had left the Wwasps organization, criticized its programs and staff. The staff was "a bunch of untrained people," he said, according to the newspaper. "They don't have credentials of any kind."

"We could be leading these kids to long-term problems that we don't have a clue about because we're not going about it in the proper way," he said. "How in the hell can you call yourself a behavior-modification program -- and that's one of the ways it's marketed -- when nobody has the experience to determine: Is this good, is this bad? "
Title: Latest New York Times Piece
Post by: Anonymous on September 15, 2003, 05:27:00 PM
we would love to hear that tape. bet he regrets that.