Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => Aspen Education Group => Topic started by: Anonymous on November 19, 2009, 01:30:17 PM
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Here is what John D. Reuben of STICC said about this survivor of insitutional abuse at the Alberta Adolescent Recovery Centre:
"Rachael is actually is doing quite well since leaving AARC at least the last time she checked in she was holding down a steady job, was clean and sober and seemed quite articulate when she spoke and well educated."
Here is the survivor describing her experience after AARC:
http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/2008-2009/power ... neill.html (http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/2008-2009/powerless/rachael_oneill.html)
According to John Reuben, a person is doing quite well when they are suffering nightmares and flashbacks as a result of being subjected to psychosurgery performed by amateur quacks.
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Don't forget he's a common criminal as well:
I was arrested several times in Boston...
Funny, so was John Reuben. He was arrested several times in Boston as well. On the same dates TheWho was arrested. Coincidence? Hardly.
Anyway, why would any parent entrust their child's welfare to John Reuben, an admitted criminal with an extensive arrest record including public intoxication and destruction of property, who openly refers to the most abusive family of programs, Aspen Education, who had half of their programs in Oregon forcibly shut down by state investigators for murdering, abusing and neglecting children in their care, including sexualized humiliation by forcing little girls to give lap dances to and perform simulated felatio on their unlicensed, uneducated couselors?
Think about this, parents, before you make the biggest mistake of your and your kid's life.
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Here is what Rachel said in 2007... after AARC:
Alright then....
I do not smoke, drink, or use any drug. I haven't since several weeks before AARC. At that point I decided to I didn't want to anymore, so I stopped.
I am living a fantastic life with my husband and our beautiful daughter.
I have a stellar career, an amazing group of friends (including Olympic athletes and hopefully by Monday a Guinness World Record holder), a lovely home (rented, but we're working on buying our house), and in general a busy, but peaceful life.
I chair a non-profit organization, and hold over 5 major events every year that garner national media attention, competitors from all over the world and spectators from as far as Florida.
I don't blame AARC for any of this, I accept full responsibility. And I ran on Step One (after almost six months). I am supposed to be one of their failures. And I sure as hell intend on never using any of the "tools" AARC taught me.
Seems like she is doing okay to me!!!
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Yep, no question that John D. Reuben is a psychopath when he says that someone suffering from nightmares and flashbacks is doing okay. This is who wants you to pay him to send your kids to Aspen.
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Yep, no question that John D. Reuben is a psychopath when he says that someone suffering from nightmares and flashbacks is doing okay. This is who wants you to pay him to send your kids to Aspen.
Sorry, Buddy,next time check your facts first. As I have been telling you all along Rachael said she is doing okay in her own words... not mine. Check the fifth esatate video for her take on her time at AARC (you should know this stuff by now, Ajax13)... the above quote was stated here on fornits in 2007.
This is another reason I post here, Ajax13, to keep you honest and hold your feet to the fire when you dont post the facts. I have straightened you out on Vause, his education and the AARC Study and now you are trying to lead everyone to believe Rachael is not doing well when in fact she is.
From way down here in Massachusetts lol.
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Don't cry, Johnny. Why claim that someone is doing okay when they state very clearly that they are suffering from nightmares and flashbacks related to their mistreatment in a TTI scam? This is all going to stick to you, and I would guess in a very public manner.
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Don't cry, Johnny. Why claim that someone is doing okay when they state very clearly that they are suffering from nightmares and flashbacks related to their mistreatment in a TTI scam? This is all going to stick to you, and I would guess in a very public manner.
Well lets take a look at what Rachael says:
Alright then....
I do not smoke, drink, or use any drug. I haven't since several weeks before AARC. At that point I decided to I didn't want to anymore, so I stopped.
I am living a fantastic life with my husband and our beautiful daughter.
I have a stellar career, an amazing group of friends (including Olympic athletes and hopefully by Monday a Guinness World Record holder), a lovely home (rented, but we're working on buying our house), and in general a busy, but peaceful life.
I chair a non-profit organization, and hold over 5 major events every year that garner national media attention, competitors from all over the world and spectators from as far as Florida.
I don't blame AARC for any of this, I accept full responsibility. And I ran on Step One (after almost six months). I am supposed to be one of their failures. And I sure as hell intend on never using any of the "tools" AARC taught me.
Hmmmmm. doesnt seem too bad to me.
What have you got? lol Toss it up on the table and we can take a look at it.
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Cool, let's talk about your extensive criminal record. Personally, I wouldn't take advice from a criminal like you and I don't think anyone else would either. You're a fraud. You don't disclose your criminal record and act like you are the most moral of the people here, but now we know you're nothing but a reprobate.
Don't forget he's a common criminal as well:
I was arrested several times in Boston...
Funny, so was John Reuben. He was arrested several times in Boston as well. On the same dates TheWho was arrested. Coincidence? Hardly.
Anyway, why would any parent entrust their child's welfare to John Reuben, an admitted criminal with an extensive arrest record including public intoxication and destruction of property, who openly refers to the most abusive family of programs, Aspen Education, who had half of their programs in Oregon forcibly shut down by state investigators for murdering, abusing and neglecting children in their care, including sexualized humiliation by forcing little girls to give lap dances to and perform simulated felatio on their unlicensed, uneducated couselors?
Think about this, parents, before you make the biggest mistake of your and your kid's life.
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When proven wrong bring out the personal attacks...lol
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Cool, let's talk about your extensive criminal record. Personally, I wouldn't take advice from a criminal like you and I don't think anyone else would either. You're a fraud. You don't disclose your criminal record and act like you are the most moral of the people here, but now we know you're nothing but a reprobate.
Don't forget he's a common criminal as well:
I was arrested several times in Boston...
Funny, so was John Reuben. He was arrested several times in Boston as well. On the same dates TheWho was arrested. Coincidence? Hardly.
Anyway, why would any parent entrust their child's welfare to TheWho, an admitted criminal with an extensive arrest record including public intoxication and destruction of property, who openly refers to the most abusive family of programs, Aspen Education, who had half of their programs in Oregon forcibly shut down by state investigators for murdering, abusing and neglecting children in their care, including sexualized humiliation by forcing little girls to give lap dances to and perform simulated felatio on their unlicensed, uneducated couselors?
Think about this, parents, before you make the biggest mistake of your and your kid's life.
No, this is not a "personal attack" it's a simple examination of TheWho's track record (which happens to be an extensive criminal record), and it's relevant. TheWho is nothing more than a criminal with an extensive record including some lewd and lascivious behavior. He doesn't tell people that up front becaue he wants to appear legitimate, but he's far from it. He's a complete and utter fraud. Even in admitting to his criminality, he only copped to a few minor charges he has faced, but left out a WHOLE LOT MORE that anyone who runs a criminal background check on him can see for themselves. He shouldn't be angry at us for finding out he's a fraud, he should be angry at himself for his behavior that got him this long criminal record. Why is he blaming others for telling the truth about him? It's his fault he decided to break the law so many times and he's not vrey smart either because he sure got caught a lot! He's just like the kids he says need a program. He doesn't accept personal responsibility for his criminality and blames others who just point it out.
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No, this is not a "personal attack" it's a simple examination of TheWho's track record (which happens to be an extensive criminal record), and it's relevant. TheWho is nothing more than a criminal with an extensive record including some lewd and lascivious behavior. He doesn't tell people that up front becaue he wants to appear legitimate, but he's far from it. He's a complete and utter fraud. Even in admitting to his criminality, he only copped to a few minor charges he has faced, but left out a WHOLE LOT MORE that anyone who runs a criminal background check on him can see for themselves. He shouldn't be angry at us for finding out he's a fraud, he should be angry at himself for his behavior that got him this long criminal record. Why is he blaming others for telling the truth about him? It's his fault he decided to break the law so many times and he's not vrey smart either because he sure got caught a lot! He's just like the kids he says need a program. He doesn't accept personal responsibility for his criminality and blames others who just point it out.
Can anyone spot a personal attack in that post? Ajax13 is always willing to discuss the issues!!! lol and yet another reason why I post here.....
Here ya go:
Link (http://http://diannej.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/backpedaling34.jpg)
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It's matter of public record, Whooter. Sorry it upsets you that you've been exposed, but you have to be honest now. It's too late to try and deny your criminal record.
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No, this is not a "personal attack" it's a simple examination of TheWho's track record (which happens to be an extensive criminal record), and it's relevant. TheWho is nothing more than a criminal with an extensive record including some lewd and lascivious behavior. He doesn't tell people that up front becaue he wants to appear legitimate, but he's far from it. He's a complete and utter fraud. Even in admitting to his criminality, he only copped to a few minor charges he has faced, but left out a WHOLE LOT MORE that anyone who runs a criminal background check on him can see for themselves. He shouldn't be angry at us for finding out he's a fraud, he should be angry at himself for his behavior that got him this long criminal record. Why is he blaming others for telling the truth about him? It's his fault he decided to break the law so many times and he's not vrey smart either because he sure got caught a lot! He's just like the kids he says need a program. He doesn't accept personal responsibility for his criminality and blames others who just point it out.
Can anyone spot a personal attack in that post? Ajax13 is always willing to discuss the issues!!! lol and yet another reason why I post here.....
Here ya go:
Link (http://http://diannej.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/backpedaling34.jpg)
Thats Funny!!!! Is that Ajax13 backpedaling again? I dont see any personal attacks in that post either ::)
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Notice there's no denial of the many criminal arrests and a few convictions. No backpeddling now, Whooter. It's your record. You own it. Why don't you let the readers know why you were arrested so many times? Why aren't you honest about what you were arrested for? That's all anybody wants from you...the truth about your criminal history.
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Also notice that Whooter changed the name "guest" on my post to "Ajax13" like he did in a few other posts and threads. I'm not Ajax13.
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Altering posts to suit your agenda, huh? Didn't you whine and complain for years that you were a "victim" of this? Yes, you did. But it looks like you're no victim. You're actually the perpetrator. Just like when you altered your own posts and accused Deborah of doing it because you lost every argument with her. Now we know you're hiding an extensive criminal record, too. What other frauds are you trying to perpetrate here, Whooter?
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:bump:
Still waiting for the explanation, Whooter. Why won't you take responsibility for your own behavior while demanding others do? You're a hypocrite and a fraud.
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Don't cry, Johnny. Why claim that someone is doing okay when they state very clearly that they are suffering from nightmares and flashbacks related to their mistreatment in a TTI scam? This is all going to stick to you, and I would guess in a very public manner.
Let me try to answer this for you
Lets see what Rachael says in her own words:
Alright then....
I do not smoke, drink, or use any drug. I haven't since several weeks before AARC. At that point I decided to I didn't want to anymore, so I stopped.
I am living a fantastic life with my husband and our beautiful daughter.
I have a stellar career, an amazing group of friends (including Olympic athletes and hopefully by Monday a Guinness World Record holder), a lovely home (rented, but we're working on buying our house), and in general a busy, but peaceful life.
I chair a non-profit organization, and hold over 5 major events every year that garner national media attention, competitors from all over the world and spectators from as far as Florida.
I don't blame AARC for any of this, I accept full responsibility. And I ran on Step One (after almost six months). I am supposed to be one of their failures. And I sure as hell intend on never using any of the "tools" AARC taught me.
Hmmmmm. doesnt seem too bad to me.
What have you got? lol Toss it up on the table and we can take a look at it.
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This seems pretty bad to me, Whooter.
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How much jail time did John D. Reuben do?
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How much jail time did John D. Reuben do?
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Don't cry, Johnny. Why claim that someone is doing okay when they state very clearly that they are suffering from nightmares and flashbacks related to their mistreatment in a TTI scam? This is all going to stick to you, and I would guess in a very public manner.
Let me try to answer this for you
Lets see what Rachael says in her own words:
Alright then....
I do not smoke, drink, or use any drug. I haven't since several weeks before AARC. At that point I decided to I didn't want to anymore, so I stopped.
I am living a fantastic life with my husband and our beautiful daughter.
I have a stellar career, an amazing group of friends (including Olympic athletes and hopefully by Monday a Guinness World Record holder), a lovely home (rented, but we're working on buying our house), and in general a busy, but peaceful life.
I chair a non-profit organization, and hold over 5 major events every year that garner national media attention, competitors from all over the world and spectators from as far as Florida.
I don't blame AARC for any of this, I accept full responsibility. And I ran on Step One (after almost six months). I am supposed to be one of their failures. And I sure as hell intend on never using any of the "tools" AARC taught me.
Hmmmmm. doesnt seem too bad to me.
What have you got? lol Toss it up on the table and we can take a look at it.
Wow, I just read this. Anyone have a link to the original Rachael post?
Did she really say this?
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Don't cry, Johnny. Why claim that someone is doing okay when they state very clearly that they are suffering from nightmares and flashbacks related to their mistreatment in a TTI scam? This is all going to stick to you, and I would guess in a very public manner.
Let me try to answer this for you
Lets see what Rachael says in her own words:
Alright then....
I do not smoke, drink, or use any drug. I haven't since several weeks before AARC. At that point I decided to I didn't want to anymore, so I stopped.
I am living a fantastic life with my husband and our beautiful daughter.
I have a stellar career, an amazing group of friends (including Olympic athletes and hopefully by Monday a Guinness World Record holder), a lovely home (rented, but we're working on buying our house), and in general a busy, but peaceful life.
I chair a non-profit organization, and hold over 5 major events every year that garner national media attention, competitors from all over the world and spectators from as far as Florida.
I don't blame AARC for any of this, I accept full responsibility. And I ran on Step One (after almost six months). I am supposed to be one of their failures. And I sure as hell intend on never using any of the "tools" AARC taught me.
Hmmmmm. doesnt seem too bad to me.
What have you got? lol Toss it up on the table and we can take a look at it.
Wow, I just read this. Anyone have a link to the original Rachael post?
Did she really say this?
Rachael O'niell, if that is who you are referring to, made those statements in the CBC documentary, "Powerless".
http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/2008-2009/powerless/video.html (http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/2008-2009/powerless/video.html)
Watch it in context and it makes sense.
Just because somebody succeeds after a program does not mean that the program caused the person to succeed (http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_hoc_ergo_propter_hoc). In this case, to me, it means a person has succeeded in spite of the program, and in spite of great hardship and abuse.
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Just because somebody succeeds after a program does not mean that the program caused the person to succeed (http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_hoc_ergo_propter_hoc). In this case, to me, it means a person has succeeded in spite of the program, and in spite of great hardship and abuse.
So using the same logic, if a person does not succeed then it doesnt mean the program was responsible for the non-success.
So we can conclude that anything positive or negative cannot be attributed to the program (post program).
I seem to remember reading here several times of kids who committed suicide post program and this was attributed to the program. How is it determined which events are attributed back to the program and which are not?
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How much jail time did John D. Reuben do?
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Just because somebody succeeds after a program does not mean that the program caused the person to succeed (http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_hoc_ergo_propter_hoc). In this case, to me, it means a person has succeeded in spite of the program, and in spite of great hardship and abuse.
So using the same logic, if a person does not succeed then it doesnt mean the program was responsible for the non-success.
So we can conclude that anything positive or negative cannot be attributed to the program (post program).
True. There are no studies to go either way. All anybody has on either side is anecdotal. That being said, the wealth of anecdotal evidence I have seen, as well as studies done on the results of the methods used, would seem to suggest that a great deal of harm can from from the majority of the programs out there. That being said, I would love to see an independent study done. I'm quite confident they'll support what I am saying. Even if they don't, just because something "works" does not make it ethical.
I seem to remember reading here several times of kids who committed suicide post program and this was attributed to the program. How is it determined which events are attributed back to the program and which are not?
Good point. Objectively, you can't say definitively what caused it, however when kids come out of a program and are later diagnosed with PTSD, caused by the program, I think it's fair to assume that some of the suicides could be attributed to the program.
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True. There are no studies to go either way. All anybody has on either side is anecdotal. That being said, the wealth of anecdotal evidence I have seen, as well as studies done on the results of the methods used, would seem to suggest that a great deal of harm can from from the majority of the programs out there. That being said, I would love to see an independent study done. I'm quite confident they'll support what I am saying. Even if they don't, just because something "works" does not make it ethical.
I think that is why I disagree so much here and many disagree with me is because we have seen evidence from different sides and have formed our opinions based on them. Personally I believe I am a better judge because I have seen evidence from fornits and from kids who have benefitted from their stay in a program. Most fornits posters have limited exposure and have witnessed only one side of the issue.
I do agree that independent studies would clear up many of our differences, but I wouldn’t expect fornits to accept any study which went against their established believes. Many would find some reason to discredit the findings.
Good point. Objectively, you can't say definitively what caused it, however when kids come out of a program and are later diagnosed with PTSD, caused by the program, I think it's fair to assume that some of the suicides could be attributed to the program.
I agree that stressful experiences could cause PTSD and if a child is abused inside a program that could be the result, but how do we know which ones? We also need to consider the kids like “Nigel’s son” and scores of others who go into programs feeling suicidal and hopeless and come out on a better path and live long happy lives.
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Just because somebody succeeds after a program does not mean that the program caused the person to succeed (http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_hoc_ergo_propter_hoc). In this case, to me, it means a person has succeeded in spite of the program, and in spite of great hardship and abuse.
So using the same logic, if a person does not succeed then it doesnt mean the program was responsible for the non-success.
So we can conclude that anything positive or negative cannot be attributed to the program (post program).
True. There are no studies to go either way. All anybody has on either side is anecdotal. That being said, the wealth of anecdotal evidence I have seen, as well as studies done on the results of the methods used, would seem to suggest that a great deal of harm can from from the majority of the programs out there. That being said, I would love to see an independent study done. I'm quite confident they'll support what I am saying. Even if they don't, just because something "works" does not make it ethical.
I seem to remember reading here several times of kids who committed suicide post program and this was attributed to the program. How is it determined which events are attributed back to the program and which are not?
Good point. Objectively, you can't say definitively what caused it, however when kids come out of a program and are later diagnosed with PTSD, caused by the program, I think it's fair to assume that some of the suicides could be attributed to the program.
there is a profusion of data documenting that torture, imprisonment, kidnap and thought reform causes long term brain damage.
There aren't traditional "experiments" on the subject because you can't legally torture someone to collect data about how it alters them--but that doesn't make the available studies only "anecdotal."
Start here, and google your way through 100s of similar, corroborating investigations
http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=10 ... id=3510203 (http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=106818§ionid=3510203)
http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~rb267689/ (http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~rb267689/)
Indecently here's something from the Geneva conventions on torture:
Protected persons are entitled, in all circumstances, to respect for their persons, their honour, their family rights, their religious convictions and practices, and their manners and customs. They shall at all times be humanely treated, and shall be protected especially against all acts of violence or threats thereof and against insults and public curiosity. Women shall be especially protected against any attack on their honour, in particular against rape, enforced prostitution, or any form of indecent assault.
Any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.
By both definitions, MBA has been substantiated by DHS to be torturing its detainees.
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I should add that psychological damage associated with thought reform is so acknowledged that it has a "disorder" designated to it in the DSM
"dissociative states in people who have undergone intense coercive persuasion (e.g. brainwashing, kidnapping) Refer to the optional "feels of Procession" follow-up section.
http://books.google.com/books?id=XDcgAX ... q=&f=false (http://books.google.com/books?id=XDcgAX35QY8C&pg=PA9&lpg=PA9&dq=dissacociative+disorder+brainwashing&source=bl&ots=huyyIcdDOS&sig=7q2EjTjb01hYiVMBgY2US0cchtI&hl=en&ei=YJ8QS5_YJM7FlAfem6CxAg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8&ved=0CB8Q6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=&f=false)
I should also add that I misspoke-- there are traditional experiments on the components of thought reform, and they have shown that it causes severe mental damage.
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True. There are no studies to go either way. All anybody has on either side is anecdotal. That being said, the wealth of anecdotal evidence I have seen, as well as studies done on the results of the methods used, would seem to suggest that a great deal of harm can from from the majority of the programs out there. That being said, I would love to see an independent study done. I'm quite confident they'll support what I am saying. Even if they don't, just because something "works" does not make it ethical.
I think that is why I disagree so much here and many disagree with me is because we have seen evidence from different sides and have formed our opinions based on them. Personally I believe I am a better judge because I have seen evidence from fornits and from kids who have benefitted from their stay in a program.
Oh. I've seen and talked to both; however the vast majority of the ones with positive opinions I have run into do not maintain that positive viewpoint in the long run. Time is the key. The kool aid wears off. I'd go so far to say I can't recall a single person I have talked to who after years of being out of a program, after exposure to the outside world and alternative viewpoints, will still maintain that it was a beneficial experience. Hell. Like I said. There was a time when I felt the program I was in had helped me. I'm sure you'd find the same with most of those who were in straight, WWASP, or any other independently verifiable hellholes.
How much a kid praises a program has almost nothing to do with how abusive it is. Anecdotal evidence would seem to show an inverse relationship as Straight supporters could be almost fanatical in their defense of the program and WWASP parents are almost as bad. Thought reform is a powerful process that can turn the bizarre or the abusive into salvation in the eyes of a participant.
Most fornits posters have limited exposure and have witnessed only one side of the issue.
I do agree that independent studies would clear up many of our differences, but I wouldn’t expect fornits to accept any study which went against their established believes. Many would find some reason to discredit the findings.
I think the problem is partially that there isn't a truly independent source willing to fund / oversee such an endeavor. Without that, any study, regardless of outcomes, could be called into question (and certainly would be by either side). This is why I prefer to avoid the issue of whether or not a program "works" or not. Is it ethical is what I ask. Are the methods humane? Are the methods abusive? Is it ethical to treat a person without their consent? In my mind those are far more important questions to ask.
Good point. Objectively, you can't say definitively what caused it, however when kids come out of a program and are later diagnosed with PTSD, caused by the program, I think it's fair to assume that some of the suicides could be attributed to the program.
I agree that stressful experiences could cause PTSD and if a child is abused inside a program that could be the result, but how do we know which ones?
Which programs? Well. The only real way to do that is to ask questions of those who have been in the particular program about what they have been through, and compare those experiences with those of others and of similar programs. Some threads on Fornits have done a good job of this as has ISACcorp in gathering information. I think it's also fair to look at the known practices of the school, it's origin, and it's power structure. Keep in mind that the facts of many practices, such as the skits at MBA, are not contested by either side. What Is debated is whether or not those practices constituted abuse, or were in any way beneficial. Personally I can't think of an appropriate therapeutic context for a song about hand jobs but obviously Aspen disagrees. All that is up to a to a jury to decide after considering testimony from both sides, expert witnesses, etc... and I'm quite sure it'll get to that because while some parents might fall for Aspen's bullshit, there will be some who won't be so gullible and who will decide to sue.
We also need to consider the kids like “Nigel’s son” and scores of others who go into programs feeling suicidal and hopeless and come out on a better path and live long happy lives.
Personally. i'm quite sure Nigel's son will come out singing the praises of the program. It'll probably be that way for anywhere from a few weeks to a few years... but what i'm also sure of from experience, is that time will put things in perspective. It's only then Nigel's parents will start to regret their decision.
there is a profusion of data documenting that torture, imprisonment, kidnap and thought reform causes long term brain damage.
There aren't traditional "experiments" on the subject because you can't legally torture someone to collect data about how it alters them--but that doesn't make the available studies only "anecdotal."
You are right. I misspoke. One can show that a particular program uses thought reform and the effects of that are indeed known... but each organization using thought reform has it's own caveats and the long term effects are not identical. Singer lists a host of different symptoms for a host of different cults. In order prove what symptoms programs produce, there would have to be independent studies. Proving programs increase risks of suicide is not as easy as it seems, regardless of what you or I have seen with our own eyes.