Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => Aspen Education Group => Topic started by: Oscar on October 29, 2009, 10:32:05 AM
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Just one more example of how residential treatment fails if you don't work very hard on the home environment:
Britain's fattest teen starts to pile back on the weight she lost (The Daily Telegraph, october 28, 2009) (http://http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/6451665/Britains-fattest-teen-starts-to-pile-back-on-the-weight-she-lost.html)
Returning home she had to take care of her parents who is unable to cope for themselves. Of course she could not remain on a healthy path. Not even the non-troubled but hardworking obediant teenagers can benefit from residential treatment if the origin of the problem isn't removed while they are away.
Aspen shouldn't have promised good results without demanding that the parents should move to a nursing home before this girl was sent back. Like with 90% of the teenagers who is recommended to residential treatment, a treatment of the family unit can produce way better results.
This girl could have benefitted from:
1) having a dietician coming into the home giving advice on meals to both her and the parents
2) been given a free membership to a health club with personal trainer
3) having the county to provide the parents with a health care aid for some hours while the daughter was away in the health club.
Guess what: It would be cheaper than the Wellspring Academies (http://http://wiki.fornits.com/index.php?title=Wellspring_Academies).
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Yes, this is the problem with the behavior modification principles on which Aspen programs are built. In fact, it's the same problem as almost every b-mod plan: the learning is situation specific. In other words, the subjects fail to generalize the behaviors they learned inside the lab to outside the lab, or, in this case, at Aspen programs to the real world.
This is why Aspen is a failure across the board. As soon as the kids leave, they go right back to what they were doing before. Even according to limited research done on ASR by a college student, most behaviors that caused the placement were worse upon leaving the program. Kids did more drugs after program. Kids drank more after program. Kids got into more trouble after program. The whole model is a failure, so the results aren't surprising to me at all.
On top of that, according to Dave Marcus' book about ASR, 25% of the kids followed ended up DEAD and the remaining 75% RELAPSED immediately. This book, touted as support for ASR, actually shows a 100% FAILURE RATE.
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What book are you talking about? Who is this guy/
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From our datasheet about ASR (http://http://wiki.fornits.com/index.php?title=Academy_at_Swift_River):
What It Takes To Pull Me Through" (ISBN-10: 0618145451) by David L. Marcus.
I have seen the book because Covergaard bought it. It is a rather good portrait of how ASR was back in the days where they used Psychodrama (http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychodrama) as treatment (Internally known as Livestep).
The author has his theory about the cause to the traffic toward programs. He blames a the double income society and the parents priority regarding pursuing own goals rather than being a factor in the lives of their children.
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From our datasheet about ASR (http://http://wiki.fornits.com/index.php?title=Academy_at_Swift_River):
What It Takes To Pull Me Through" (ISBN-10: 0618145451) by David L. Marcus.
I have seen the book because Covergaard bought it. It is a rather good portrait of how ASR was back in the days where they used Psychodrama (http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychodrama) as treatment (Internally known as Livestep).
The author has his theory about the cause to the traffic toward programs. He blames a the double income society and the parents priority regarding pursuing own goals rather than being a factor in the lives of their children.
If I recall correctly, Psychodrama started to be used in psych wards in the 1960s, perhaps even earlier given the time table of Jacob Moreno's development of his Theory of Interpersonal Relations. Apparently, it didn't always have "props" or role-playing back then, despite the "drama" descriptive. Probably depended on the facilitator. :D
Without the props et al, it sounds more like "good old" TC with a fancier title to me...
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What book are you talking about? Who is this guy/
Here it is:
DaveMarcus (http://http://www.davemarcus.com/content/what-it-takes-pull-me-through-about-book)
David L. Marcus has been a foreign correspondent and education reporter
for U.S. News & World Report, the Boston Globe, Miami Herald, and Dallas
Morning News, where he shared a Pulitzer Prize for a series of articles on
violence against women around the world. Marcus also was a Nieman Fellow at
Harvard. After a twenty-four year career in journalism, he spent a year as
a high school teacher at Deerfield Academy in Massachusetts.
About the Book
A Pulitzer Prize-winning writer untangles the mysteries of the
teenage mind as he witnesses troubled kids transformed by fourteen
months at a school that offers therapy for adolescents in
crisis.
To find answers, Marcus gained unfettered access to students, staff,
and parents at the Academy at Swift River in the hills of western
Massachusetts. The kids at Swift River had already ventured down a
number of perilous paths all parents fear their own children might
take – drug use, violence, theft, internet addictions, eating disorders,
promiscuity. Known for combining intensive academics, a wilderness
program and group therapy, the school helps troubled teenagers emotional
health.
He focuses on four remarkable kids who run the demographic gamut:
--a Southern girl whose privileges cannot save her from sinking into
drug abuse and unsafe sex;
--the self-destructive son of teachers grappling with his anger about
being adopted;
--a black kid from a tough New York neighborhood who is silenced by
consuming depression;
--a once high-achieving Florida girl "broken" by the death of her mother.
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What Whooter fails to mention is that of the 4 kids followed thru ASR one killed himself immediately after the program and the other three relapsed into drug abuse with one girl being involved in a fatal alcohol-related motor vehicle accident.
ASR = 100% failure rate + 25% death rate.
Funny how this part keeps getting left out, huh?
Also funny is that Marcus does paid 'workshops' for Aspen, too. Not exactly honest reportage from TheWho.
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What book are you talking about? Who is this guy/
Here it is:
DaveMarcus (http://http://www.davemarcus.com/content/what-it-takes-pull-me-through-about-book)
David L. Marcus has been a foreign correspondent and education reporter
for U.S. News & World Report, the Boston Globe, Miami Herald, and Dallas
Morning News, where he shared a Pulitzer Prize for a series of articles on
violence against women around the world. Marcus also was a Nieman Fellow at
Harvard. After a twenty-four year career in journalism, he spent a year as
a high school teacher at Deerfield Academy in Massachusetts.
About the Book
A Pulitzer Prize-winning writer untangles the mysteries of the
teenage mind as he witnesses troubled kids transformed by fourteen
months at a school that offers therapy for adolescents in
crisis.
To find answers, Marcus gained unfettered access to students, staff,
and parents at the Academy at Swift River in the hills of western
Massachusetts. The kids at Swift River had already ventured down a
number of perilous paths all parents fear their own children might
take – drug use, violence, theft, internet addictions, eating disorders,
promiscuity. Known for combining intensive academics, a wilderness
program and group therapy, the school helps troubled teenagers emotional
health.
He focuses on four remarkable kids who run the demographic gamut:
--a Southern girl whose privileges cannot save her from sinking into
drug abuse and unsafe sex;
--the self-destructive son of teachers grappling with his anger about
being adopted;
--a black kid from a tough New York neighborhood who is silenced by
consuming depression;
--a once high-achieving Florida girl "broken" by the death of her mother.
This guy also did a book about battered women didnt he. I thought I read that somewhere.
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What Whooter fails to mention is that of the 4 kids followed thru ASR one killed himself immediately after the program and the other three relapsed into drug abuse with one girl being involved in a fatal alcohol-related motor vehicle accident.
ASR = 100% failure rate + 25% death rate.
Funny how this part keeps getting left out, huh?
Also funny is that Marcus does paid 'workshops' for Aspen, too. Not exactly honest reportage from TheWho.
.
When you get past the spin from Aspen, these statistics are stunning. 1 of 4 dead. 3 of remaining 3 relapsed. 1 of remaining 3 kills an innocent while operating a motor vehicle drunk.
ASPEN turns kids into STATISTICS.
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This guy also did a book about battered women didnt he. I thought I read that somewhere.
Perhaps you are referring to this part, quoted from your own post:
David L. Marcus has been a foreign correspondent and education reporter for U.S. News & World Report, the Boston Globe, Miami Herald, and Dallas Morning News, where he shared a Pulitzer Prize for a series of articles on violence against women around the world.[/list]
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I love this little bit of snazzy wordage from the marketing spiel for What It Takes to Pull Me Through (http://http://www.davemarcus.com/content/what-it-takes-pull-me-through-about-book):
"A Pulitzer Prize-winning writer untangles the mysteries of the teenage mind as he witnesses troubled kids transformed by fourteen months at a school that offers therapy for adolescents in crisis."[/list]
Sounds like the author is exploring alien territory, indeed! :twofinger:
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"Transformed" by Aspen is true. One was transformed into a corpse and three more into hardcore drug addicts and one of those three into a drunken manslaughterer. Now that's a transformation.
Remember also that John D. Reuben of STICC's kid was also transformed into a corpse. There seem to be a lot of dead kids coming out of Aspen's programs, especially ASR.
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This guy also did a book about battered women didnt he. I thought I read that somewhere.
Perhaps you are referring to this part, quoted from your own post:
David L. Marcus has been a foreign correspondent and education reporter for U.S. News & World Report, the Boston Globe, Miami Herald, and Dallas Morning News, where he shared a Pulitzer Prize for a series of articles on violence against women around the world.[/list]
Yes! I knew he worked against violence against women.
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Yes! I knew he worked against violence against women.
Yeah, too bad he promotes violence against children.
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Yes! I knew he worked against violence against women.
Yeah, too bad he promotes violence against children.
The common element of violence struck me as well. I would have chalked it up to a gravitation towards exploitative subject matter which always tends to generate high press copy, but perhaps Marcus does have a deep dark secret buried back in his youthful years...
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This guy also did a book about battered women didnt he. I thought I read that somewhere.
Perhaps you are referring to this part, quoted from your own post:
David L. Marcus has been a foreign correspondent and education reporter for U.S. News & World Report, the Boston Globe, Miami Herald, and Dallas Morning News, where he shared a Pulitzer Prize for a series of articles on violence against women around the world.[/list]
Yes! I knew he worked against violence against women.
Uh, no, not at all. He WROTE ABOUT IT. He did not "work against" it. He exploited its existence for a series of stories. You need a reading comprehension class.
But let's not let that distract from the disturbing 100% failure rate and 25% death rate Marcus uncovered at ASR, an Aspen program.
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Yes! I knew he worked against violence against women.
Yeah, too bad he promotes violence against children.
The common element of violence struck me as well. I would have chalked it up to a gravitation towards exploitative subject matter which always tends to generate high press copy, but perhaps Marcus does have a deep dark secret buried back in his youthful years...
Many writers are motivated by things that occurred in their past. It is very possible that he grew up in the midst of violence himself and therefore is gravitated towards it as a writer. That and the struggles that adolescents have with his books on the struggling teen industry and another about kids getting into college I believe.
It is interesting that his Pulitzer prize came from his writings about violence against women. I thought it would have been more war time related.
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This guy also did a book about battered women didnt he. I thought I read that somewhere.
Perhaps you are referring to this part, quoted from your own post:
David L. Marcus has been a foreign correspondent and education reporter for U.S. News & World Report, the Boston Globe, Miami Herald, and Dallas Morning News, where he shared a Pulitzer Prize for a series of articles on violence against women around the world.[/list]
Yes! I knew he worked against violence against women.
Uh, no, not at all. He WROTE ABOUT IT. He did not "work against" it. He exploited its existence for a series of stories. You need a reading comprehension class.
But let's not let that distract from the disturbing 100% failure rate and 25% death rate Marcus uncovered at ASR, an Aspen program.
Yeah, you can't accept only part of the facts. If you are going to look at these kids' lives, you have to look at the other side of it as well. On one hand ASR claims lots of success, but the only "documentary" about the place (Marcus' book) reveals it's actually a huge failure.
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This guy also did a book about battered women didnt he. I thought I read that somewhere.
Perhaps you are referring to this part, quoted from your own post:
David L. Marcus has been a foreign correspondent and education reporter for U.S. News & World Report, the Boston Globe, Miami Herald, and Dallas Morning News, where he shared a Pulitzer Prize for a series of articles on violence against women around the world.[/list]
Yes! I knew he worked against violence against women.
Uh, no, not at all. He WROTE ABOUT IT. He did not "work against" it. He exploited its existence for a series of stories. You need a reading comprehension class.
But let's not let that distract from the disturbing 100% failure rate and 25% death rate Marcus uncovered at ASR, an Aspen program.
Yeah, you can't accept only part of the facts. If you are going to look at these kids' lives, you have to look at the other side of it as well. On one hand ASR claims lots of success, but the only "documentary" about the place (Marcus' book) reveals it's actually a huge failure.
ooops,forgot the link:
Here check this guy out, you'll see what I mean:
DaveMarcus (http://http://www.davemarcus.com/content/what-it-takes-pull-me-through-about-book)
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This guy also did a book about battered women didnt he. I thought I read that somewhere.
Perhaps you are referring to this part, quoted from your own post:
David L. Marcus has been a foreign correspondent and education reporter for U.S. News & World Report, the Boston Globe, Miami Herald, and Dallas Morning News, where he shared a Pulitzer Prize for a series of articles on violence against women around the world.[/list]
Yes! I knew he worked against violence against women.
Uh, no, not at all. He WROTE ABOUT IT. He did not "work against" it. He exploited its existence for a series of stories. You need a reading comprehension class.
But let's not let that distract from the disturbing 100% failure rate and 25% death rate Marcus uncovered at ASR, an Aspen program.
Yeah, you can't accept only part of the facts. If you are going to look at these kids' lives, you have to look at the other side of it as well. On one hand ASR claims lots of success, but the only "documentary" about the place (Marcus' book) reveals it's actually a huge failure.
ooops,forgot the link:
Here check this guy out, you'll see what I mean:
DaveMarcus (http://http://www.davemarcus.com/content/what-it-takes-pull-me-through-about-book)
And remember that Marcus is a paid consultant to ASR, which would blow any shred of objectivity out of the fucking water.
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The above post was mine, here is the link to the bed of lies I was talking about. Check it out yourself:
Dave Marcus' Book (http://http://www.davemarcus.com/content/what-it-takes-pull-me-through-about-book)
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The above post was mine,
LIAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
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The above post was mine,
LIAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
Sorry, you are right. I meant to say he wrote 2 books and received a Pulitzer Prize for his writings on battered Women.
Here check it out for yourself:
Dave Marcus' Blog (http://http://www.davemarcus.com/content/what-it-takes-pull-me-through-about-book)
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And remember that Marcus is a paid consultant to ASR, which would blow any shred of objectivity out of the fucking water.
The above post was mine,
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And remember that Marcus (http://http://www.davemarcus.com/content/what-it-takes-pull-me-through-about-book) is a paid consultant to ASR, which would blow any shred of objectivity out of the fucking water.
The above post was mine,
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What are you, 12? Gotta get the last word....... make sure your site is linked to the post????????
Jeeeeeezus friggin christ!!!! This guy's kid DIED!!!! Whether you believe it was drug related, program related or BOTH or NEITHER....how could any feeling human being even CONSIDER using their child's death as propaganda and promotion for their business????? Just when I think this "industry" can't sink any lower. Wow.
:jawdrop:
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What are you, 12? Gotta get the last word....... make sure your Site (http://http://www.davemarcus.com/content/what-it-takes-pull-me-through-about-book) is linked to the post????????
Jeeeeeezus friggin christ!!!! This guy's kid DIED!!!! Whether you believe it was drug related, program related or BOTH or NEITHER....how could any feeling human being even CONSIDER using their child's death as propaganda and promotion for their business????? Just when I think this "industry" can't sink any lower. Wow.
:jawdrop:
I think it is working now. I clicked on it and it takes you to the book site. As far as his kid dying, I didnt read that. I wasnt aware that Marcus had kids. Atleast he didnt talk about it in the book.
He wrote a few other books though.
check out his site:
Dave Marcus' Blog (http://http://www.davemarcus.com/content/what-it-takes-pull-me-through-about-book)
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I think it is working now. I clicked on it and it takes you to the book site.
Gotta wonder if Whooter is being paid $25 every time someone clicks that link and gets referred to Dave Marcus's site.
Or would that fee be based on an "insertion rate?" I know that on the low end of the scale, the going rate is at least a couple hundred to sneak mention of someone's product, complete with link, into the text of a blog. A lot depends on the desirability and "heat" of the blog in question. Since fornits is not a "blog" per se, that price might be less. However, given that its pertinence to parents considering program placement for their kids is high, that price might be higher.
What is the going insertion rate for fornits?
"Sowing goodwill towards the industry." Gotta love that viral marketing. :twofinger:
Come to think of it, he's been posting a lot of links to Ellen Behren's "study" as well.
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This guy also did a book about battered women didnt he. I thought I read that somewhere.
Perhaps you are referring to this part, quoted from your own post:
David L. Marcus has been a foreign correspondent and education reporter for U.S. News & World Report, the Boston Globe, Miami Herald, and Dallas Morning News, where he shared a Pulitzer Prize for a series of articles on violence against women around the world.[/list]
Yes! I knew he worked against violence against women.
Uh, no, not at all. He WROTE ABOUT IT. He did not "work against" it. He exploited its existence for a series of stories. You need a reading comprehension class.
But let's not let that distract from the disturbing 100% failure rate and 25% death rate Marcus uncovered at ASR, an Aspen program.
Yeah, you can't accept only part of the facts. If you are going to look at these kids' lives, you have to look at the other side of it as well. On one hand ASR claims lots of success, but the only "documentary" about the place (Marcus' book) reveals it's actually a huge failure.
Back to the facts: the Marcus 'sample' had a 100% failure rate and a 25% death rate. No way around this proven fact.
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This guy also did a book about battered women didnt he. I thought I read that somewhere.
Perhaps you are referring to this part, quoted from your own post:
David L. Marcus has been a foreign correspondent and education reporter for U.S. News & World Report, the Boston Globe, Miami Herald, and Dallas Morning News, where he shared a Pulitzer Prize for a series of articles on violence against women around the world.[/list]
Yes! I knew he worked against violence against women.
Uh, no, not at all. He WROTE ABOUT IT. He did not "work against" it. He exploited its existence for a series of stories. You need a reading comprehension class.
But let's not let that distract from the disturbing 100% failure rate and 25% death rate Marcus uncovered at ASR, an Aspen program.
Yeah, you can't accept only part of the facts. If you are going to look at these kids' lives, you have to look at the other side of it as well. On one hand ASR claims lots of success, but the only "documentary" about the place (Marcus' book) reveals it's actually a huge failure.
Back to the facts: the Marcus (http://http://www.davemarcus.com/content/what-it-takes-pull-me-through-about-book) 'sample' had a 100% failure rate and a 25% death rate. No way around this proven fact. See for yourself:
Dave Marcus' Blog (http://http://www.davemarcus.com/content/what-it-takes-pull-me-through-about-book)
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^^got to be Whooter again. He's more concerned about getting those links IN, than he is in anything he's actually saying. :rofl:
Earn those VM $$$$, baby!
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"Sowing goodwill towards the industry." Gotta love that viral marketing. :twofinger:
That’s an interesting perspective. So any point of view or personal account which goes against the fornits "group think" is considered viral marketing?
This really shows how deceptive fornits has become. Years ago fornits would base their arguments on facts and personal accounts from kids who were in programs (aka survivors). Now since the programs have greatly improved, these same kids are being helped and the industry is growing you need to resort to fictional or out dated accounts because there are very few current stories to use as examples.
There also seems to be a growing intolerance to studies and facts on the industry here on the forum. Prescreening of aticles and books are in high gear. Its amazing how upset people get now if you independently link to something outside fornits. Maybe if you do away with the "Link" option you can better control the content and the message here. You cant call the information and links lies (because it is truthful information) so you try to justify dismissing it by calling it "Industry Goodwill" and "Viral marketing".
The word survivor is taking on a whole new meaning… maybe those kids who survived adolescence.
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This guy also did a book about battered women didnt he. I thought I read that somewhere.
Perhaps you are referring to this part, quoted from your own post:
David L. Marcus has been a foreign correspondent and education reporter for U.S. News & World Report, the Boston Globe, Miami Herald, and Dallas Morning News, where he shared a Pulitzer Prize for a series of articles on violence against women around the world.[/list]
Yes! I knew he worked against violence against women.
Uh, no, not at all. He WROTE ABOUT IT. He did not "work against" it. He exploited its existence for a series of stories. You need a reading comprehension class.
But let's not let that distract from the disturbing 100% failure rate and 25% death rate Marcus uncovered at ASR, an Aspen program.
Yeah, you can't accept only part of the facts. If you are going to look at these kids' lives, you have to look at the other side of it as well. On one hand ASR claims lots of success, but the only "documentary" about the place (Marcus' book) reveals it's actually a huge failure.
I believe this thread was about another Aspen failure (one in a long, long line of them) as evidenced by the fattest teen ever becoming fat again after Aspen's b-mod program and four kids from Marcus' book ending up drug addicted and one dead. Aspen's failure rate in the "Marcus sample" is 100% with a 25% death rate. This has nothing to do with group think. Aspen kills kids and there's no way around that.
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This guy also did a book about battered women didnt he. I thought I read that somewhere.
Perhaps you are referring to this part, quoted from your own post:
David L. Marcus has been a foreign correspondent and education reporter for U.S. News & World Report, the Boston Globe, Miami Herald, and Dallas Morning News, where he shared a Pulitzer Prize for a series of articles on violence against women around the world.[/list]
Yes! I knew he worked against violence against women.
Uh, no, not at all. He WROTE ABOUT IT. He did not "work against" it. He exploited its existence for a series of stories. You need a reading comprehension class.
But let's not let that distract from the disturbing 100% failure rate and 25% death rate Marcus uncovered at ASR, an Aspen program.
Yeah, you can't accept only part of the facts. If you are going to look at these kids' lives, you have to look at the other side of it as well. On one hand ASR claims lots of success, but the only "documentary" about the place (Marcus' book) reveals it's actually a huge failure.
I believe this thread was about another Aspen failure (one in a long, long line of them) as evidenced by the fattest teen ever becoming fat again after Aspen's b-mod program and four kids from Marcus' (http://http://www.davemarcus.com/content/what-it-takes-pull-me-through-about-book) book ending up drug addicted and one dead. Aspen's failure rate in the "Marcus Sample (http://http://www.davemarcus.com/content/what-it-takes-pull-me-through-about-book)" is 100% with a 25% death rate. This has nothing to do with group think. Aspen kills kids and there's no way around that.
Check out the details here:
Marcus' Blog (http://http://www.davemarcus.com/content/what-it-takes-pull-me-through-about-book)
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^^got to be Whooter again. He's more concerned about getting those links IN, than he is in anything he's actually saying. :rofl:
Earn those VM $$$$, baby!
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^^got to be Whooter (http://http://www.davemarcus.com/content/what-it-takes-pull-me-through-about-book) again. He's more concerned about getting those links (http://http://www.davemarcus.com/content/what-it-takes-pull-me-through-about-book) IN, than he is in anything he's actually saying. :rofl:
Earn those VM $$$$ (http://http://www.davemarcus.com/content/what-it-takes-pull-me-through-about-book), baby!
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...four kids from Marcus' (http://http://www.davemarcus.com/content/what-it-takes-pull-me-through-about-book) book...
Aspen's failure rate in the "Marcus Sample (http://http://www.davemarcus.com/content/what-it-takes-pull-me-through-about-book)"...
Check out the details here: Marcus' Blog (http://http://www.davemarcus.com/content/what-it-takes-pull-me-through-about-book)
^^got to be Whooter (http://http://www.davemarcus.com/content/what-it-takes-pull-me-through-about-book) again...
...getting those links (http://http://www.davemarcus.com/content/what-it-takes-pull-me-through-about-book) IN...
Earn those VM $$$$ (http://http://www.davemarcus.com/content/what-it-takes-pull-me-through-about-book), baby!
Geez, buddy! You must be getting tired. Those SIX links are all of the same friggin' page! I'd expect more intelligent placements from a high class industry shill like yourself!
Whooter, the creativity in your trolling has gone w-a-y down. Ya really gotta do something 'bout that. What ever will Marcus think?!
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...four kids from Marcus' (http://http://www.davemarcus.com/content/what-it-takes-pull-me-through-about-book) book...
Aspen's failure rate in the "Marcus Sample (http://http://www.davemarcus.com/content/what-it-takes-pull-me-through-about-book)"...
Check out the details here: Marcus' Blog (http://http://www.davemarcus.com/content/what-it-takes-pull-me-through-about-book)
^^got to be Whooter (http://http://www.davemarcus.com/content/what-it-takes-pull-me-through-about-book) again...
...getting those links (http://http://www.davemarcus.com/content/what-it-takes-pull-me-through-about-book) IN...
Earn those VM $$$$ (http://http://www.davemarcus.com/content/what-it-takes-pull-me-through-about-book), baby!
Geez, buddy! You must be getting tired. Those SIX links are all of the same friggin' page! I'd expect more intelligent placements from a high class industry shill like yourself!
Whooter (http://http://www.davemarcus.com/content/what-it-takes-pull-me-through-about-book), the creativity in your trolling has gone w-a-y down. Ya really gotta do something 'bout that. What ever will Marcus think?!
Thanks Bro, you have a point.
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:bump: