Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Anonymous on October 25, 2009, 02:14:22 PM
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Ya know. People are going to hate me for saying this. But if my kid tried to attack me. I would probably put him in his place too... especially if running away wasn't an option (it isn't always.)
And another thing people will probably not like me for... As far as antidepressants go... they worked for me. I've been on em since i was 13. I used to be very aggressive, i would suddenly get enraged for no reason (and i mean no reason)... prozac stopped that. I'm not saying it's right for all people, but it worked for me. It takes a few weeks to start working though, so don't expect immediate results....
I for one, am bisexual... my parents sent me to school for that issue.
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Chemical Restraints rather than the time-consuming and sometimes painful process of mastering social skills and self discipline, are the quick-fix many prefer. Their "disorder" provides an excuse for their on-going anti-social behavior.
Guess it's a choice, but one that could take years off their life. Be careful not to push too hard with your attacks. Antidepressants are known to cause suicidal and homicidal thinking if the subject is pushed beyond their chemically restrained comfort zone. You probably wouldn't want his blood on your hands, or your own blood for that matter.
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Psy: I had the same problem as you, as was treated in the same way. I was highly aggressive and had a hair-trigger temper. i was put on SSRI's when i was 14 and stayed on them until i was 19. During that time, i was fairly placid, always content enough to never truly feel shitty in any way - the lows were never too low, and neither were the highs. I was so placid that when people would try to start a fight with me, i would just throw up blocks or try to evade them, but never fight back. while the other guy saw it as something to be angry about, i would feel to emotion about it. I would let people order me around. boss me around. I was extremely submissive because i really just didnt give a shit, because in my head i was OK. It's akin to being stoned (on marijuana) constantly for an extended period of time (did that too). with weed, you become content with sitting on the couch all day, with SSRIs, you feel content to do whatever the fuck comes your way. Essentially, it was a crutch. i was weak, and i became even weaker, as a human being with free will. I did not learn how to solve basic emotional and social problems that people my age at the time faced.
I realized at age 19, that i had two options: I could become dependent on the drugs the rest of my life, or i can stop now and learn how to live without them. Considering the fact that the drugs themselves cost money, were easily displaceable, and the withdrawal symptoms were horrible, it was also the more convenient thing to do at the time. I was on lexapro 30mg. It took me 6 months to taper down my dose, if i went too fast i would start getting muscle spasms and the trademark ssri "electric shocks" inside your head. i had to weigh the pills out on a scale, and shave off an extra milligram's worth every week off every pill with a razor. maybe you should consider that fact, when considering about how bad the shit is for you, and what big pharma's intentions are. To me, a synthetic substance which is not necessary to life, that is encouraged to be used daily, that causes withdrawal symptoms when intake is ceased, is not a substance anyone should ever take.
When i came completely off the lexapro, the world was completely different. it was new. i felt like a kid again for a while. I could actually FEEL! i cherished my lows as much as the highs. my social skills improved. but there was a flipside: I no longer knew how to deal with my lows. i did not have a crutch anymore. when i got angry or depressed, i stayed that way and kept making myself worse and worse, thinking in circles. What made it worse is that on lexapro i built a habit of being passive, but i was no longer able to shrug things off like before. Instead of being aggressive outwardly, i turned those emotions inward. i became withdrawn. I worried myself half to death all the time. Sometimes i would get so nervous about things that i would throw up - that was new to me. It was partly the long-term effects of the withdrawal, and partly my inability to deal with these emotions that were suppressed since my early teens. I am still learning to deal with the issue, but i feel that i have overcome it to a certain degree on my own. I am now stronger, as an individual, than ever before......but i am still a long ways behind my peers.
The thing is Psy, you have been on SSRIs since you were 13. thats a long time. you cant say if you know they still help you, because you dont know how you are without them. everyone is crazy when they are 13, and your growth was suppressed. You were not mature enough to make an informed decision at 13 regarding your own mental health, at that age people are not quite fully aware of themselves. Because you were on them continuously since then, you are still not fully aware of yourself or your potential, regardless of what you might think. you do not know you own baseline. you do not know yourself. and you are still not yet equipped with the crazy shit life will throw at you minus the SSRIs - and believe me....shit will be flying all over the place. The only way you'll learn to dodge all that shit without a crutch, is to not use the crutch. You're still using training wheels on the bike called life, dude. I would recommend you stop taking them, just to try and see what you are like without them - i mean do the long-term taper down and go a year or so without them. If you then decide you cant live without them, then start again. But you'll be dependant on it the rest of your life, and postponing a potential future SRRI-free life will only make things harder the longer you wait. and btw, FUCK what your doctor says. They make money off of keeping you on the drugs. They are trained to make money that way, to live their lives and think that way. They dont understand ways of thinking beyond their schooling (much of which comes from or is sponsored by the pharmaceutical companies, btw). You need to learn to live life on your own terms. You rally around here decrying the abuse and lack of freedom that TBS detainees face; but you yourself are enslaving yourself with something that is a crucial facet of those institution's existence. Worst part, is you're not even truly choosing for yourself - you are on them by default essentially. If you take a break, then you WILL be choosing for yourself.
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Psy: I had the same problem as you, as was treated in the same way. I was highly aggressive and had a hair-trigger temper. i was put on SSRI's when i was 14 and stayed on them until i was 19. During that time, i was fairly placid, always content enough to never truly feel shitty in any way - the lows were never too low, and neither were the highs. I was so placid that when people would try to start a fight with me, i would just throw up blocks or try to evade them, but never fight back. while the other guy saw it as something to be angry about, i would feel to emotion about it. I would let people order me around. boss me around. I was extremely submissive because i really just didnt give a shit, because in my head i was OK. It's akin to being stoned (on marijuana) constantly for an extended period of time (did that too). with weed, you become content with sitting on the couch all day, with SSRIs, you feel content to do whatever the fuck comes your way. Essentially, it was a crutch. i was weak, and i became even weaker, as a human being with free will. I did not learn how to solve basic emotional and social problems that people my age at the time faced.
I realized at age 19, that i had two options: I could become dependent on the drugs the rest of my life, or i can stop now and learn how to live without them. Considering the fact that the drugs themselves cost money, were easily displaceable, and the withdrawal symptoms were horrible, it was also the more convenient thing to do at the time. I was on lexapro 30mg. It took me 6 months to taper down my dose, if i went too fast i would start getting muscle spasms and the trademark ssri "electric shocks" inside your head. i had to weigh the pills out on a scale, and shave off an extra milligram's worth every week off every pill with a razor. maybe you should consider that fact, when considering about how bad the shit is for you, and what big pharma's intentions are. To me, a synthetic substance which is not necessary to life, that is encouraged to be used daily, that causes withdrawal symptoms when intake is ceased, is not a substance anyone should ever take.
When i came completely off the lexapro, the world was completely different. it was new. i felt like a kid again for a while. I could actually FEEL! i cherished my lows as much as the highs. my social skills improved. but there was a flipside: I no longer knew how to deal with my lows. i did not have a crutch anymore. when i got angry or depressed, i stayed that way and kept making myself worse and worse, thinking in circles. What made it worse is that on lexapro i built a habit of being passive, but i was no longer able to shrug things off like before. Instead of being aggressive outwardly, i turned those emotions inward. i became withdrawn. I worried myself half to death all the time. Sometimes i would get so nervous about things that i would throw up - that was new to me. It was partly the long-term effects of the withdrawal, and partly my inability to deal with these emotions that were suppressed since my early teens. I am still learning to deal with the issue, but i feel that i have overcome it to a certain degree on my own. I am now stronger, as an individual, than ever before......but i am still a long ways behind my peers.
The thing is Psy, you have been on SSRIs since you were 13. thats a long time. you cant say if you know they still help you, because you dont know how you are without them. everyone is crazy when they are 13, and your growth was suppressed. You were not mature enough to make an informed decision at 13 regarding your own mental health, at that age people are not quite fully aware of themselves. Because you were on them continuously since then, you are still not fully aware of yourself or your potential, regardless of what you might think. you do not know you own baseline. you do not know yourself. and you are still not yet equipped with the crazy shit life will throw at you minus the SSRIs - and believe me....shit will be flying all over the place. The only way you'll learn to dodge all that shit without a crutch, is to not use the crutch. You're still using training wheels on the bike called life, dude. I would recommend you stop taking them, just to try and see what you are like without them - i mean do the long-term taper down and go a year or so without them. If you then decide you cant live without them, then start again. But you'll be dependant on it the rest of your life, and postponing a potential future SRRI-free life will only make things harder the longer you wait. and btw, FUCK what your doctor says. They make money off of keeping you on the drugs. They are trained to make money that way, to live their lives and think that way. They dont understand ways of thinking beyond their schooling (much of which comes from or is sponsored by the pharmaceutical companies, btw). You need to learn to live life on your own terms. You rally around here decrying the abuse and lack of freedom that TBS detainees face; but you yourself are enslaving yourself with something that is a crucial facet of those institution's existence. Worst part, is you're not even truly choosing for yourself - you are on them by default essentially. If you take a break, then you WILL be choosing for yourself.
Guest, do you feel your brain has been damaged on a permanent basis by being on the drugs(the prescribed kind) for so long?
thank you
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You rally around here decrying the abuse and lack of freedom that TBS detainees face; but you yourself are enslaving yourself with something that is a crucial facet of those institution's existence.
I disagree. Drugs have very little to do with these place. In some ways they can make the stay tolerable. I requested my Prozac be increased while at Benchmark and I my stay would have been much worse without that. Straight Inc had no drugs at all and that was no picnic. Many programs, especially those with heavy AA/Synanon influences, do not medicate at all.
Worst part, is you're not even truly choosing for yourself - you are on them by default essentially. If you take a break, then you WILL be choosing for yourself.
I've been off Prozac since January. I can't honestly say I feel that different. For me, it worked. I needed it way back when but now I don't need it anymore. You can call it a crutch but sometimes people need a crutch to take the pressure off until their legs are strong enough to walk on their own. Prozac, helped "train" me to deal with situations calmly and rationally. In a sense it was "behavior modification" but I do not resent it because I knew full well what the Prozac was doing, how I was being changed, and I felt those changes beneficial. You didn't. You stopped taking them. I'm not going to pat you on the back and say "good for you". You made the best decision for you, I made the best decision for me. I'd prefer you not judge me for what I put in my body.
You can call it being a "slave" but I fail to see how choosing to be on any given substance can make one a slave to it (unless that's what you believe, and that belief causes a similar effect). I see nothing wrong with drug "dependence" as you describe it anyway if it's a beneficial relationship. I have such a beneficial relationship with coffee and nicotine (http://http://www.trdrp.org/research/PageGrant.asp?grant_id=3960). Others on Fornits have such a relationship (sometimes temporary) with Marijuana or any number of drugs. Many find Marijuana, specifically, has helped them deal with the effects (http://http://www.google.fr/search?q=marijuana+ptsd) of post program PTSD. You may have a moral/egotistical problem with augmenting yourself or treating yourself with mind altering substances. I do not. I've never seen a rational reason not to.
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PS: Let me be very clear that I am against any type of forced medication. I just believe that a person has absolute sovereignty over one's body and should be able to put whatever one wants in it for any reason whatsoever. I can't see one freedom (ability to refuse) existing without the other (ability to choose). In my mind the two are inseparable.
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i do not have a moral or egotistical reason to decry augmentation of consciousness, in fact, i am a full fledged supporter of it. you're preaching to the choir. I am one of those people whom marijuana helped.....
The bone i have to pick is not with augmenting one's consciousness, but changing it such a way where there is contrast and balance. For example, if you smoke weed all day every day not only are you likely to become a bump on a log, but you wont really be getting high. The beneficial effects of MJ specifically and only in relation to mood disorders fade with constant habitual use and other problems appear to replace them. If you smoke it once in a while (i'd say 3-4 separate occasions a week is absolute maximum) then you retain the positive effects without having many negatives......because there is contrast. if you're living in stoned-world 24/7 it's not helping you, it's not treating you, you're just escaping. same with SSRIs - but SSRIs put you into SSRI-land continuously. the other thing about marijuana is the withdrawal effects even from heavy long-term use are tolerable - insomnia, irritability, and less of an appetite. they are not incapacitating, just unpleasant and inconvenient. SSRIs on the other hand, have absolutely incapacitating withdrawl symptoms. Go cold turkey from a high dose and you'll think that your brain is having a seizure within a few days.
maybe i should just tell you what initially got me to consider quitting them:
I went on a trip to peru when i was 19. I forgot the medication, and had to go without it for a while. It was not readily available where i was - it had to be shipped in by mail and i had to deal with an extensive beurocracy of doctors and customs officials to receive it. I was planning on going to machu pichu. Instead, i was holed up in my hotel room unable to move or think, felling like my brain was being zapped with an electric shock every ten seconds, for a week, with my friends (who were also planning on going to machu pichu, but didnt because of me) taking care of me and working on getting my meds asap. By the time i got them, the vacation was over and i had to go back. So i went all the way to peru just to sit around in a hotel and have withdrawals for a week. if you ask me, going through all that was a bit excessive, just because i had a dependency on a substance. I think going to machu pichu would have made me much happier than any pill ever could.
this led me to consider my "survival-quotient": how likely you are to survive if the shit hits the fan and you can no longer depend on the luxuries that you normaly take for granted. I'm not talking about an apocalypse - i'm talking about if for example the above mentioned situation happened in a wild and inhospitable place, or if i get stranded, lost, or even if there is a shortage of that medication in the world - anyone who is dependent on medication - especially medication that cannot be obtained naturally (unlike marijuana) - has a near-zero survival quotient. I prefer to be strong, self-reliant and independent. I'm not a survivalist, I just like to have the feeling that i am capable of providing for myself and surviving on my own without nessicarily being dependent on anything whatsoever other than myself if the situation calls for it.
to your last post: ( "I can't see one freedom (ability to refuse) existing without the other (ability to choose). In my mind the two are inseparable"):
that's exactly my point psy. when you take an SSRI you do not have the ability to choose or refuse to stop taking it at any given moment. I'm not saying you shouldnt take them at all....it's your own body. i'd be a hypocrite if i said it because i'm a die-hard libertarian and i volunteered for NORML for a year.... I'm just saying if you're going to do anything, you should be informed of the consequences. at 13, most people do not have the perspective or experience to even comprehend the consequences, much less judge them. Freedom is education, it's not just the ability to choose, but also to make an informed decision. I dont know about you....but the extent of the withdrawal symptoms was a total surprise for me - which is why i feel that taking SSRIs is wrong. it's not because drugs are all bad and you shouldn't take them, it's because Big pharma, doctors, and some parents has alterior motives behind medicating people/children; and the best interest of the patient is not what they always have in mind. What little doctors know about drugs and treatments, they learn from seminars run by the drug companies themselves. The drug companies are not good samaritans, they are not putting out the drugs out of the kindness of their hearts. they are corporations, with bottom lines. they do what they need to do to make money. I'm sure i dont need to keep going, i'm sure you caught my drift........
as for the other question, regarding if it changed me permanently: yes, i think it did, but there is no way to tell for sure. I am much more anxious and nervous than i ever was before the meds. i sorta rebound-ed to a worse state than i was before, only the outward effects were slightly augmented due to change of thought habits. For the first year or so, i had a pit in my stomach 24-7, but that eventually faded. My brain chemistry is now very fragile, and any mind-altering substances, especially amphetamines and cocaine, and excluding alcohol, marijuana and nicotine can potentially throw me into a very destabilized state of mind where i may become bipolar, highly aggressive, have constant panic attacks, and am unable to leave the house for weeks. My doctor thinks it may be that the lexapro altered the levels of various enzymes in my liver and as a result i cannot metabolize various substances properly; although tests are yet to be done. normally, as long as i stick to a strict schedule/regimen, excersize, smoke some weed sometimes (but not too often or too much), eat well, and dont let myself get too stressed out, i'm OK. there is also no way to tell if the rebound and later sensitivity was a result of the lexapro or something else. I used a variety of other drugs during my time on lexapro and immediately after, and for around five years i was smoking weed all day every day - and weed is known to cause anxiety problems in some heavy users. I used a variety of psychedelics, opiates, benzos, drank alot, etc..... so it could have been that or it could have been the lexapro, or everything all together. But i must say the lexapro did have a profound effect that was significantly more damaging to my personal emotional development than any of the other drugs that i used or abused.
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btw, psy, about your point about being a "slave" to a substance being all about a state of mind:
thats true, it is, but that only applies to psychological dependency. SSRIs, along with most other pharmaceuticals used to treat mood disorders are physiologically addicting; and patients are rarely told about this fact. Doctors assume that physiological addiction, minus the psychological part, is easily manageable because it just requires a gradual taper-down. That is also true - that is usually all it takes to get someone off a substance. But for the time being, before the taper-down occurs, physically, the person in a slave to the substance. It's not something someone will go out of their way acquire it - like heroin - but it is something someone will feel potentially incapacitating withdrawal symptoms from if intake is ceased. So you're not exactly a slave to the drug itself per se, you're just a slave to popping a pill every morning, making sure to carry it on trips, and making sure you visit your doctor and pharmacy regularly to pick up your prescription. oh.....and sure, people who are sick are dependent on other drugs......but they dont nessicarily have a choice. for many of them, it's do or die. for most people on SSRI's, it's their (or their guardian's) choice.
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and another thing:
If the SSRIs helped you psy, then good for you. i'm glad they did. But i doubt being on SSRIs as long as you were helps many people. Ever heard of muscle atrophy? if you use a crutch, or a wheelchair for too long, or if your in a cast for too long....etc...your muscle atrophies. Crutches are good for a short period, but you need to get back on your feet better sooner than later. The longer you stay on crutches, the more your muscles atrophy and the more work you'll have to do later to build it back up. Another point is that if you for example put a 13 year old kid in a cast and crutches, and keep them that way for five or ten years, not only will their muscles atrophy, their physical development will be stunted. they may be permanently crippled. The same principal applies to drugs. they are OK if used in moderation; but constant long term use, especially before the body and brain is fully developed, can cause major problems in the long term.
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and another thing:
If the SSRIs helped you psy, then good for you. i'm glad they did. But i doubt being on SSRIs as long as you were helps many people. Ever heard of muscle atrophy? if you use a crutch, or a wheelchair for too long, or if your in a cast for too long....etc...your muscle atrophies.
I liken it more to muscle memory in my case. Situational memory. Behavioral memory.... whatever you want to call it. No analogy is perfect but "training wheels" would be another good one.
You do make a whole lot of good points, though and I agree with most, especially the bit about informed consent. Where I disagree is with your assumption that a 13 year old cannot make an informed decision on the matter (provided drug companies are honest about their products, which they are not always). If a person can refuse treatment at that age, a person can choose treatment at that age. In no situation do I believe that it should be the parent's choice, even if the child ends up believing the results to be beneficial.
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How exactly is a 13 year old going to make an informed decision? First of all, drug companies and doctors are never completely forthcoming with the details, nor do parents or their kids tend to pry about it because they trust their doctors...as most people do unfortunately. half the time the doctors themselves...and sometimes the companies too.. dont even know everything in the first place.
Second, even if the kid was informed, i dont think many 13 year olds can grasp the consequences of drug use and/or dependance, medically sanctioned or not. They go on what their friends, family, and authority figures tell them to make their decisions. they have no perspective. case in point: when i was 13, i started smoking cigarettes. I thought it was "cool" (doesnt everybody?), and i secretly waited for the day i can talk to my freinds about how badly i'm craving a bogie whenever....i was anticipating addiction with gleefully open arms. i thought it was cool to be an addict. i thought that stopping was going to be easy. It wasnt easy...fifteen years later i'm still puffin away a pack a day. That sounds ridiculous to you and me now, but thats how many 13 year olds think. they dont think about the long term consequences.....you only start considering those things as your reaching your 20's. so even if the kid is told "you will be horribly dependent on it and it will make you weak-willed" they probably wont give a fuck as long as you tell them it will make them feel good. Legally, any contract entered by a minor can be easily voided. this is because, among other reasons, minors are very easily coerced and do not have the knowledge or experience to make certain decisions for themselves. kids that age dont have the experience to know the tolls that chemical dependancies can take on people. It wasn't until i was 16/17 and started encountering people who were facing serious personal or otherwise consequences as a result of substances, that i truly began to understand the dangers of chemical dependencies. Hence why cigarets are illegal for under 18's, and that's also the logic behind why parents/guardians are legally allowed to force treatment - chemical or otherwise.
of course, not all 13 year olds are like that. there are always exceptions to the rule. but generally speaking, 13 year olds do not have the required level of maturity to make an informed decision on the matter. there is no magical age at which someone is able to do so, it varies from person to person. Some people may reach that level at 13; but i have yet to see it, i'm sure it's very rare. some people reach that level at 18, others at 16 or 17, some people might only reach that level in their 20's; some people never do. it depends on the person; but i would say that the american legal system has it about right, most people, on average, reach that level at roughly 18 years of age in this country.
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How exactly is a 13 year old going to make an informed decision? First of all, drug companies and doctors are never completely forthcoming with the details, nor do parents or their kids tend to pry about it because they trust their doctors...as most people do unfortunately. half the time the doctors themselves...and sometimes the companies too.. dont even know everything in the first place.
Second, even if the kid was informed, i dont think many 13 year olds can grasp the consequences of drug use and/or dependance, medically sanctioned or not. They go on what their friends, family, and authority figures tell them to make their decisions. they have no perspective. case in point: when i was 13, i started smoking cigarettes. I thought it was "cool" (doesnt everybody?), and i secretly waited for the day i can talk to my freinds about how badly i'm craving a bogie whenever....i was anticipating addiction with gleefully open arms. i thought it was cool to be an addict. i thought that stopping was going to be easy. It wasnt easy...fifteen years later i'm still puffin away a pack a day.
So choose to quit if you find it undesirable. Here we get into the disease concept argument and fuzzy stuff about free will.
That sounds ridiculous to you and me now, but thats how many 13 year olds think. they dont think about the long term consequences.....you only start considering those things as your reaching your 20's. so even if the kid is told "you will be horribly dependent on it and it will make you weak-willed" they probably wont give a fuck as long as you tell them it will make them feel good. Legally, any contract entered by a minor can be easily voided. this is because, among other reasons, minors are very easily coerced and do not have the knowledge or experience to make certain decisions for themselves. kids that age dont have the experience to know the tolls that chemical dependancies can take on people. It wasn't until i was 16/17 and started encountering people who were facing serious personal or otherwise consequences as a result of substances, that i truly began to understand the dangers of chemical dependencies. Hence why cigarets are illegal for under 18's, and that's also the logic behind why parents/guardians are legally allowed to force treatment - chemical or otherwise.
Glad you realize that. In order for one freedom to exist, the other must as well, like I said. I believe letting 13 year olds choose to medicate if they wish (and their parents are willing to pay) is the lesser of two evils.
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. if you're living in stoned-world 24/7..............................you're just escaping.
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You're saying that like it's a bad thing..........
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. if you're living in stoned-world 24/7..............................you're just escaping.
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You're saying that like it's a bad thing..........
Damned right I'm escaping, but I keep getting brought back to the real world. Reality is the ultimate shitty program.
This is so fucking cute. How adorable. The trolls are giving Psy medical advice out of concern for his health after getting his attention with a flame thread. Not that he would, but advising Psy to go off the meds his doctor prescribed is dumb. The troll's aversion to psych meds both pharm and alternative makes it come off like a Scientologist in full Cruise mode. The troll sounds envious of Psy's meds.
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. if you're living in stoned-world 24/7..............................you're just escaping.
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You're saying that like it's a bad thing..........
it kinda is.
theres nothing wrong with smoking tons of weed......i did it myself for a long time. It's just for me......i became useless. as brad pitt put it: "I was turning into a doughnut". Didnt do shit with my life, shit with myself, other than sit around the house playing video games, watching TV, and hangin with friends. I think it's much wiser, in many ways, at least in my case, to only smoke at night and only a few days a week. it really puts a damper on your potential if you smoke during the day.
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How exactly is a 13 year old going to make an informed decision? First of all, drug companies and doctors are never completely forthcoming with the details, nor do parents or their kids tend to pry about it because they trust their doctors...as most people do unfortunately. half the time the doctors themselves...and sometimes the companies too.. dont even know everything in the first place.
Second, even if the kid was informed, i dont think many 13 year olds can grasp the consequences of drug use and/or dependance, medically sanctioned or not. They go on what their friends, family, and authority figures tell them to make their decisions. they have no perspective. case in point: when i was 13, i started smoking cigarettes. I thought it was "cool" (doesnt everybody?), and i secretly waited for the day i can talk to my freinds about how badly i'm craving a bogie whenever....i was anticipating addiction with gleefully open arms. i thought it was cool to be an addict. i thought that stopping was going to be easy. It wasnt easy...fifteen years later i'm still puffin away a pack a day.
So choose to quit if you find it undesirable. Here we get into the disease concept argument and fuzzy stuff about free will.
That sounds ridiculous to you and me now, but thats how many 13 year olds think. they dont think about the long term consequences.....you only start considering those things as your reaching your 20's. so even if the kid is told "you will be horribly dependent on it and it will make you weak-willed" they probably wont give a fuck as long as you tell them it will make them feel good. Legally, any contract entered by a minor can be easily voided. this is because, among other reasons, minors are very easily coerced and do not have the knowledge or experience to make certain decisions for themselves. kids that age dont have the experience to know the tolls that chemical dependancies can take on people. It wasn't until i was 16/17 and started encountering people who were facing serious personal or otherwise consequences as a result of substances, that i truly began to understand the dangers of chemical dependencies. Hence why cigarets are illegal for under 18's, and that's also the logic behind why parents/guardians are legally allowed to force treatment - chemical or otherwise.
Glad you realize that. In order for one freedom to exist, the other must as well, like I said. I believe letting 13 year olds choose to medicate if they wish (and their parents are willing to pay) is the lesser of two evils.
yeah it is fuzzy stuff about free will. Not saying it's impossible, but quitting nicotine is hard as hell. tried cutting down, using gum, using the patch, zyban, wellbutrin, chantix....everything. they all have major side effects, nothing works, my cravings are ridiculous. my #1 wish right now is to quit nicotine.
i do agree with you though about the subjectivity of addiction. I was once an "addict" myself - to opiates, abeit for a fairly short time (6 months). for that, i just lay in bed for a week smoking pot and i was over it. I was once a "weed addict" (if there truly is a such thing) too; all i had to do to stop smoking so much is just find some other activities to distract me. every drug is different, every drug addicts people in different ways. the one-size-fits-all mentality of AA and other treatment programs is very skewed. there is a whole range of different types of addictions and dependancies.
Nicotine is a whole other monster.
also, i doubt a teenager has the patience to sit there and weigh out his pills slicing off little bits every week to taper down. plus, SSRI's make people complacent.........complacent to keep taking them. Human beings have free will, but not everyone knows how to utilize their own free will to it's fullest extent, especially not people in their early teens. the 13 year old may choose to stop......but will he stop? and i'm not saying that he's addicted per se, just saying it may simply be more convenient for him to keep taking the meds despite the fact that he may not like them.
i definitely do not think giving kids full control over the decision to medicate is the lesser of two evils. yes, forced treatment is bad, as is a forced lack thereof. as mentioned before, 13 year olds do not know whats best for them most of the time; and it's not like their parents are likely to either if they send their kid to a TBS or put them on psych meds; but generally speaking the parents know BETTER. Contracts entered by the minor can be voided without just cause. The only way such a contract cannot be voided easily is if a guardian co-signs. this applies to medical treatment, in my opinion, for the same reasons as the intent of the law.
btw, i'm no doctor or scientologist. i'm also not the same person who started the thread. I just have a few philosophical bones to pick with medical community in regards to treatment of adolescent mood disorders. I was not saying psy should stop because he's a bad person or that drugs are bad period; i was saying he should stop just to give it a try, just so he can know what it's like without them. This is a philosophical discussion, not a flame fest. i'm sure psy understood that right away. if you want to interject, maybe you should pay attention at what is said/typed rather than skim and make assumptions.
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it really puts a damper on your potential if you smoke during the day.
It really depends both on the strain and the person (and the job). A Sativa strain is great for daytime.
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it really puts a damper on your potential if you smoke during the day.
It really depends both on the strain and the person (and the job). A Sativa strain is great for daytime.
i agree to an extent. but there are some issues with that statement:
1. Not everyone can pick and choose what strains they get. if you're in cali, then lucky you. we stoners of the east coast rarely get to pick from more than 2-3 strains at a time. we get amazing weed, but we smoke whatever our dealers have on them at the time. Not many (although some do) dealers around here carry a variety of strains, or are able to get a specific strain. combine that with the fact that sativas are hard to grow, yield little, cost more, and have less "bag appeal", dealers are less likely to carry pure sativas as they are hybrids or indicas. Most people on the east coast dont know jack shit about weed anyway, they use things like color, smell, density and trichome count as indicators of potency - and not many really care what kind of high the weed gives, as long as it gets them high and they get a good bang for the buck. Sativas are a connesuir's weed, average stoners cant appreciate it, and because of the inherent challenges in growing it, it's not common around here.
2. Sativas create tolerance faster than indicas. sure, it's a good daytime high. but if you smoke it during the day every day, 3-4 days into smoking the same strain a fatty wont do anything to you, so you have to switch around. this creates a need for access to a variety of strains on demand.
3. Even sativas can make someone lazy and not feel like doing anything. if you are an artist, musician, writer, then yes, smoking sativas during the day may in fact be beneficial to your career. Personally, i love smoking and writing papers, i write better stoned as it focuses me more and i become more creative. BUT, if you are an average student, or have a 9-5 job, smoking all day long, regardless of the strain, makes life a little more difficult. bassically, if you are an adult with a job, kids, house, etc.....even if you are an artist, smoking all day makes things more difficult. it's like having to constantly be climbing uphill.
4. LESS IS MORE. refer to point #2. smoke less, and less will get you higher. back when i smoked all the time....i THOUGHT i was getting high. i wasnt. i was just getting mellow. Remember how weed was the first couple times you smoked it? if you keep your habit down to 3-4 times a week you will get much much much higher on much much less weed.
i'm not decrying smoking weed...all day or sometimes. It doesnt matter to me, it's your life not mine. I just think that eventually.......you will probably come to the same conclusion i did. 80% of the serious stoners i knew back in college/highschool came to the same conclusion. The ones who have more than one kid simply dont even have the time to smoke. Of the other 20%, i'd say 10% are still smoking all day....basically living with their parents and playing video games as much as they can with no drive, direction or purpose in life; while the other 10% got into harder drugs......and i'm sure you know what happens to people after they've been doing alot of hard drugs for a few years.
If you're smokin weed all day and it's working out for you, then great! but just know one thing: as long as you do that, you're stuck in the muck, you're not going anywhere in life. you may think you are...but you're really not. It's either up, down, or straight. weed keeps you straight. other drugs will bring you down. the only thing that will make you go "up" (grow up) is a change of habits and lifestyle. if weed is an element or habit of that lifestyle....then that has to change.
another thing: I used to THINK that i could function smoking all day. i was functioning. i was doing fine. but i was JUST functioning, JUST doing fine. I wasnt doing anything great with my life. i wasnt going anywhere. as soon as i took a break for a few months.....my life just took off. I had ten times more energy and drive, and i regained my ambition.
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it really puts a damper on your potential if you smoke during the day.
It really depends both on the strain and the person (and the job). A Sativa strain is great for daytime.
i agree to an extent. but there are some issues with that statement:
1. Not everyone can pick and choose what strains they get. if you're in cali, then lucky you. we stoners of the east coast rarely get to pick from more than 2-3 strains at a time. we get amazing weed, but we smoke whatever our dealers have on them at the time. Not many (although some do) dealers around here carry a variety of strains, or are able to get a specific strain. combine that with the fact that sativas are hard to grow, yield little, cost more, and have less "bag appeal", dealers are less likely to carry pure sativas as they are hybrids or indicas. Most people on the east coast dont know jack shit about weed anyway, they use things like color, smell, density and trichome count as indicators of potency - and not many really care what kind of high the weed gives, as long as it gets them high and they get a good bang for the buck. Sativas are a connesuir's weed, average stoners cant appreciate it, and because of the inherent challenges in growing it, it's not common around here.
Absolutely, but to say that "weed" (impling all strains) makes people lazy or inactive during the day is inaccurate. I hate when it's used as an argument to keep it illegal, especially since if it were legal, the same problem would not exist.
2. Sativas create tolerance faster than indicas. sure, it's a good daytime high. but if you smoke it during the day every day, 3-4 days into smoking the same strain a fatty wont do anything to you, so you have to switch around. this creates a need for access to a variety of strains on demand.
It depends on whether your motive for smoking during the day is to get "high" or to achieve a desired effect. I feel that a constant dosage of sativa, for me, keeps me alert, similar to coffee. So long as you keep the dosage constant and don't fluctuate (creating high tolerances) it works well. Periodic abstinence "resets" any tolerance buildup and as you note, indicas/hybrids can be used for the evening / night time when a high level of alertness and functioning is not required.
3. Even sativas can make someone lazy and not feel like doing anything. if you are an artist, musician, writer, then yes, smoking sativas during the day may in fact be beneficial to your career. Personally, i love smoking and writing papers, i write better stoned as it focuses me more and i become more creative. BUT, if you are an average student, or have a 9-5 job, smoking all day long, regardless of the strain, makes life a little more difficult. bassically, if you are an adult with a job, kids, house, etc.....even if you are an artist, smoking all day makes things more difficult. it's like having to constantly be climbing uphill.
There I'd have to disagree, though to a certain extent it depends on the persom. A good Sativa functions as a stimulant and so long as the dosage is not excessive, it can help people to function better for the vast majority of tasks.
[qoute]4. LESS IS MORE. refer to point #2. smoke less, and less will get you higher. back when i smoked all the time....i THOUGHT i was getting high. i wasnt. i was just getting mellow.[/quote]
Or slightly more "pepped up" in the case of Sativa.
Remember how weed was the first couple times you smoked it? if you keep your habit down to 3-4 times a week you will get much much much higher on much much less weed.
I agree, but for those who use it as a treatment for ADHD or similar, a constant dosage works well. The trick is not to, as I said, increase tolerance by "binging" or getting "fucked up".
If you're smokin weed all day and it's working out for you, then great! but just know one thing: as long as you do that, you're stuck in the muck, you're not going anywhere in life. you may think you are...but you're really not. It's either up, down, or straight. weed keeps you straight. other drugs will bring you down. the only thing that will make you go "up" (grow up) is a change of habits and lifestyle. if weed is an element or habit of that lifestyle....then that has to change.
See. There I disagree. One can have a symbiotic, mutually beneficial relationship with weed.
another thing: I used to THINK that i could function smoking all day. i was functioning. i was doing fine. but i was JUST functioning, JUST doing fine.
For me, it's quantifiable. Grades are better. Job performance is better. When I don't smoke, people notice. It's only then they feel there is something "wrong". I'm not talking about a one or two day cool-down period where there might be some temporary drowsiness. I'm talking about extended periods of abstinence where people wonder "What's gotten into you. You cant' do X as well anymore". For some people, who use it responsibly (constant moderated dosage with short periods of abstinence to "recharge" tolerance) and respect it, weed is a very effective life changing medication.
I wasnt doing anything great with my life. i wasnt going anywhere. as soon as i took a break for a few months.....my life just took off. I had ten times more energy and drive, and i regained my ambition.
I think that's because you were smoking Indica. If you were smoking a good Sativa strain, I'm pretty sure you'd find the opposite to be true. Then again, I have ADHD and you may not.
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What is this shit? I can't make much sense of it the way it's formatted.
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What the fuck y'all talking about? None of you know how to get high. You need an ounce of skank and don't bother cleaning it. Put it in a Mason jar, fill the jar with kerosene and cap it. Bury that shit behind your house on the first night with a full moon. Dig it up in the morning, drain it and let it dry. In the evening, drench that shit with embalming fluid. Smoke or vaporize in open air.
Not only does it flip your wig but it will cure your ADHD too.
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I have been thinking about this topic for awhile. It occurred to me a large majority of doctors don't talk about the benefits of exercise and good eating habits. They can help some people who suffer from depression.
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i've been trying to write a reply to this for a little while but every time my internet connection fucks up and i loose it. since i'm tired of typing the same thing for the fourth time now, i'll make it short and sweet.
You're coming from a perfect world mindset. aka california mindset. I'm coming from an east coast, realistic mindset. In cali, quality as it means to cardholders is bud that is gown naturally and with care, has a desirable and specific effect profile, and has a minimum of side effects. in cali, the most potent weed is by no means considered the best weed. demand drives supply, therefore it's easy to get a choice strain, and therefore easy to medicate rather than get fucked up. therefore, marijuana to cardholders in cali truly is medicinal.
On the east coast, people think that potency=quality, period. they dont care what kind of high it is, they dont care if it gives you a headache or puts you on the couch, as long as it gets you FUCKED UP. Therefore, the weed on the market here is generally the kind that gets you FUCKED UP, e.g indicas and hybrids like the diesels in particular. very rarely do you find sativas. when you do, it's usually haze, but the "haze" on the east coast is does not have an effect profile like most sativas. it will knock you out faster than any indica, and you'll wake up with a splitting headache. therefore, weed on the east coast (unless you have great connections or grow yourself) is a "get high" drug, not "get medicated" drug. the weed available here is generally of little medical value to daytime smokers. As for the people with cancer and whatnot, they have special underground (illegal) cooperatives all over the east coast and the rest of the country where they can get what they need....but you need to really truly be super sick to gain admission to those.
note: yes, alot of our weed is shipped in from cali. the customers and dealers want a certain level of bag appeal; so the transporters, brokers, and growers provide them with that. if people wanted more sativa then that's what they'd be sending here. but people here dont want sativas. they want to get fucked up.
in a perfect world, in MJ's truest essence, it's a valuable medication for many many many medical problems. But we do not live in a perfect world, and marijuana in it's current incarnation on the east coast is not really medicine for people who just need it to focus during the day.
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I have been thinking about this topic for awhile. It occurred to me a large majority of doctors don't talk about the benefits of exercise and good eating habits. They can help some people who suffer from depression.
it's true.
90% of america doesnt have a clue what good eating habits are. that's because 90% of the food sold in america (including "healthy" foods like fruits and veggies) is absolute junk - due to the way they are grown, what is sprayed on it, how they are processed and stored. for example, people may think salads are a healthier option than burgers. Possibly....yes...but if the salad has been sprayed with pesticides and preservatives and stored for weeks, then the burger would be a healthier option given that it's grass fed and on a whole wheat or whole grain bun. It's important to eat clean, natural, local, and organic, Not just limit intakes of certain food groups. cutting down on carbs wont help you if you're eating junk food protein like industrial (e.g boars head, kraft, perdue, etc) cold cuts. It's worthwhile to note that often people who are depressed have elevated levels of toxic substances in their blood (pesticides, heavy metals, veterinary antibiotics), likely from the food they eat, which may be a cause or factor in the depression.