Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => Straight, Inc. and Derivatives => Topic started by: Anonymous on October 12, 2009, 10:44:23 PM
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Ugh, in psychology.. we are in the groupthink chapter and how different mechanisms make people make the choices they do.
I wish I didn't have so much to say about the topic....It is one of those times when I can't help but say "too much" =(
I wish I didn't have the compulsion to say as much as I do. Just another thing I can trace back to those blue chairs.
~On other notes... ( I like dots!....)
~ I am actually quite upset with the fact I may get a "B" in this Biology class. (Why do I have to be so perfect in school now, and if I get an 88% on an exam I feel disappointed in myself ?!) This is what I tell myself ---> What do you call the person (in a PhD program) with the lowest grade on graduation? DOCTOR! I guess it's the same whether you finish w/ a 4.0 or a 3.0
~ My WITHDRAW/Termination date is coming up! I love Halloween because of this! I went in - in parachute pants, hi-tops and a leather jacket and came out in a clown costume.. WTF! LOL (Pretty sad, I dressed up.. just to wear some make-up.. and of all the days they finally kicked me out.. I was a dam clown! ) Gawd, I was sooo cool though ^.~
~ Oh and I am not liking math at all =(
~~Peace2all~~
Just missing you all..
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Ugh, in psychology.. we are in the groupthink chapter and how different mechanisms make people make the choices they do.
I wish I didn't have so much to say about the topic....It is one of those times when I can't help but say "too much" =(
I wish I didn't have the compulsion to say as much as I do. Just another thing I can trace back to those blue chairs.
~On other notes... ( I like dots!....)
~ I am actually quite upset with the fact I may get a "B" in this Biology class. (Why do I have to be so perfect in school now, and if I get an 88% on an exam I feel disappointed in myself ?!) This is what I tell myself ---> What do you call the person (in a PhD program) with the lowest grade on graduation? DOCTOR! I guess it's the same whether you finish w/ a 4.0 or a 3.0
~ My WITHDRAW/Termination date is coming up! I love Halloween because of this! I went in - in parachute pants, hi-tops and a leather jacket and came out in a clown costume.. WTF! LOL (Pretty sad, I dressed up.. just to wear some make-up.. and of all the days they finally kicked me out.. I was a dam clown! ) Gawd, I was sooo cool though ^.~
~ Oh and I am not liking math at all =(
~~Peace2all~~
Just missing you all..
Aside from the obvious regarding, Group-Think I am also reminded of the book 1984, by George Orwell. Although Group Think perse' I dont believe is mentioned in the book, it certainly dances around the entire concept. A utopian world, or at best a utopian vision that is exasserbated in the minds of the people, via propaganda. But like most exercises in this group think mentality, there is a breakdown in the human psyche, thus the breakdown of trusts and relationships and soon the society crumples into a disutopian state of misery. With what we went thru, I can not imagine it being an easy task to sit quietly. Its difficult learning about something you yourself have experianced. But Group Think has spread its tenticals into most aspects of our live....Our basic education---Group Think Our Government= Group Think, Our legislative branch of the government=Group Think. Most if not all major Religions = Group Think.
No where in any of the aforementioned instances is there room or allowances for Free Thought, Individual Thought. I think even in our sciences thought, wonder, imagination have been squelched. Plato, Pythagorious Newton all of which where observors of nature, or Natural Scientist or like Darwin, Naturalist. But since those times our science is mandate by mathmatics. If ya cant prove it by mathematics, well it cant be proven and what can not be proven is poo-pooed. Lack of evidence, is not evidence of lack. But this is the supra-structure layed down by Group-Thought.
I am fond of the elipses/dots myself....helps me focus .
I think I understand the absolute need to obtain academic excellance,. We were told were were POS, dopers, druggies all doomed to a short life, jail or institutions...I personally bought into this rhetoric for more decades than I care to mention. Finally I had a chance to go to school later in life. I was early for class every time, I was hungry for what ever the profesors would throw at me. Seemingly I absorbed all of it, so different from attending school after Straight Inc. I fully expected a 100% on every exam I took...which wasn't the case, but I fully expected it, Of course with unreasonable expectations followed by disapointment and anger...they kinda go together.
Ya didnt ask for advice, so I cant really offer any....however I can extend my best wishes for you!
Much Peace!
Much Healing!
woof
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Ugh, in psychology.. we are in the groupthink chapter and how different mechanisms make people make the choices they do.
I wish I didn't have so much to say about the topic....It is one of those times when I can't help but say "too much" =(
I wish I didn't have the compulsion to say as much as I do. Just another thing I can trace back to those blue chairs.
~On other notes... ( I like dots!....)
~ I am actually quite upset with the fact I may get a "B" in this Biology class. (Why do I have to be so perfect in school now, and if I get an 88% on an exam I feel disappointed in myself ?!) This is what I tell myself ---> What do you call the person (in a PhD program) with the lowest grade on graduation? DOCTOR! I guess it's the same whether you finish w/ a 4.0 or a 3.0
~ My WITHDRAW/Termination date is coming up! I love Halloween because of this! I went in - in parachute pants, hi-tops and a leather jacket and came out in a clown costume.. WTF! LOL (Pretty sad, I dressed up.. just to wear some make-up.. and of all the days they finally kicked me out.. I was a dam clown! ) Gawd, I was sooo cool though ^.~
~ Oh and I am not liking math at all =(
~~Peace2all~~
Just missing you all..
Hey Peace - just to let you know. Not one person asked me about my GPA when I got out of college. And if they do, remember after 2 years or so in your chosen field, it will only matter what you have done, not what your grades were.
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Thanks you guys =)
I know I don't come often and engage in the drama much anymore, but it means an awful lot to know you all are still here. Going to school is tough, first I'm a lot older than most of my class mates and second I expect a great deal more from myself then the kids fresh out of school do of themselves. I am slowly learning to identify my self as my current self and not identify as my victim of abuse self. Just that realization alone has brought me far from the depths of hell many of you know I found my head in most days.
The one thing that is still hard, is not telling too much. The full disclosure rule still haunts my thoughts and conversations. Even though I didn't talk in group hardly at all, I still feel like I have a WHOLE story to tell when someone asks about my life or asks just "Hey, how's it going?" When people ask how I am, I instantly think.. do you want the long version or the complementary .." im ok.." I never know what people expect in conversation. For instance, the other day me and a classmate were debating sociology and social-conflict .. you know,>> does every American actually have the same potential and opportunities, especially between racial boundaries.. And she started to say.. "Hey! I got myself to school after being raped ..etc.. so anyone should have the same motivation as me!" I surprised myself and responded.. "Shhh, you don't have to tell that about yourself..." ~~~Ok, so my point is, where is the normative boundary of the general population's comfort zone when hearing about violence and obscene abuse? Like, when is it appropriate and not, to just blurt out personal information about your own life? I have a hard time knowing where this boundary is, because I typically tend to just talk about all the horrific abuses I have been through as if I were talking about a shopping trip.. but sometimes people just look at me stunned.. and I am not sure how to interpret that....So, I am learning to not say too much. Is that right or is it a denial of the true self?
Any thoughts on that?
^.~ Look! I signed in.. I'm not an imposture =)
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The one thing that is still hard, is not telling too much. The full disclosure rule still haunts my thoughts and conversations. Even though I didn't talk in group hardly at all, I still feel like I have a WHOLE story to tell when someone asks about my life or asks just "Hey, how's it going?" When people ask how I am, I instantly think.. do you want the long version or the complementary .." im ok.." I never know what people expect in conversation. For instance, the other day me and a classmate were debating sociology and social-conflict .. you know,>> does every American actually have the same potential and opportunities, especially between racial boundaries.. And she started to say.. "Hey! I got myself to school after being raped ..etc.. so anyone should have the same motivation as me!" I surprised myself and responded.. "Shhh, you don't have to tell that about yourself..." ~~~Ok, so my point is, where is the normative boundary of the general population's comfort zone when hearing about violence and obscene abuse? Like, when is it appropriate and not, to just blurt out personal information about your own life? I have a hard time knowing where this boundary is, because I typically tend to just talk about all the horrific abuses I have been through as if I were talking about a shopping trip.. but sometimes people just look at me stunned.. and I am not sure how to interpret that....So, I am learning to not say too much. Is that right or is it a denial of the true self?
Any thoughts on that?
A few...General rule of thumb (my thumb anyway) Self Disclosure Kills...that would be my knee jerk reaction/answer.
As a Buddhist I have learned there are these four ways of answering questions. What four?
A) There is the question that requires a categorical reply. (Yes/No)
B) That which requires a counter question. (Answering the question with a question...engage them)
C) That which must be put aside. (Even the Buddha refused to answer certain questions, ones trivial and ones that served no purpose even if answer is given)
D) And that which requires a discriminating reply. (Will the answer be of service to the questioner, will it calm them, will it assist them)
My disclosure is like a ringing telephone...just beacuse it rings, I do not have to answer it and if I do answer it...I have the option of hanging up.
Also I was thinking of the victimhood, victims are easy to spot, victims are easy prey, victims wait to be "saved". You, myself, all of us fell victim in our youth. The abuse is over for you, the victimhood seems to remain. I am not suggesting you forget what took place or anyone forget what took place. A coin has two sides, ours on the one side is victimhood, the other side is surviving and thriving. I personally had to stop for a period of time, metaphorically, STOP! Stop and watch my internal landscape, look at everything, examine everything without prejudice. I realized no one, no thing, no entity was going to "save me"....ever. Once I lost all hope of that ever occuring, I felt a tremendious sense of ease, I was more or less comfortable in my own prison and a new life began to unfold. I began to feel a freedom, for lack of a better word. Along with that 'freedom' came a sence of strength. With more experiance in 'freedom' and my new found 'strength', confidence or faith (if you will) slowly took root. Dont expect this to happen overnight, its a slow process.
This has not been an easy journey, I suspect it has not been for you either...any of us for that matter.At the risk of sounding redundant...We must perservere so that we may endure.
Much Peace
Much Healing
woof
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Some of my thoughts here:
Groupthink often occurs spontaneously and naturally between people who have had unique experiences like spending time in a program (to take an example). These people develop their own language and buzz words which during the course of a conversation sends the message that they are onboard and will speak within the “comfort zone” of consensus thinking.
These people are easy to spot within a conversation because they use language unique to the group like (in this case)“Gulag”, “Detainee”, “Kidnapping” to describe places and events which others outside the group would view as normal occurrences. The use of these words also precludes that you are onboard with the groupthink.
If during the course of a conversation a person develops independent thought or encourages viewpoints outside the "comfort zone" the group will try to attempt to make them feel foolish or embarrass them by tagging them with names like “Industry sock puppet”, “Troll” or “Programmie” in this case. This is intended to drive the person away or encourage them to stop upsetting the balance of the group by squelching their independent thought. This uncomfortable thought promotes anger from some members of the group as we often see in this forum.
In Groupthink there needs to be an unquestioned belief that all programs are the same and they are all evil. If a study is released or book written or any outside information that threatens the central belief of the group then a strategy is developed to rationalize a reason to discredit the thought. This is typically accomplished here by stating the author was too close to the industry (being paid off) or not close enough (doesn’t understand how evil the industry is) which makes it easy for the people in the group to rationalize that it should be dismissed and not discussed within the group. Stereotyping those who oppose the group by tagging them as weak, evil or biased or name calling like programmie or sockpuppet (in this specific case) is common with all groups which developed groupthink.
I believe it works particularly well here on fornits because the closer group members are in outlook, the less likely they are to raise questions that might break their cohesion. As fornits slowly isolates themselves from outside information (provided by current studies and present changes within the industry and via other forms of self censorship) the stronger their cohesive bond becomes and the more comfortable they will be speaking openly here.
So in essence as the industry improves and becomes more and more effective and less abusive the stronger the groupthink here on fornits will become driven by its greater isolation.
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Thanks you guys =)
I know I don't come often and engage in the drama much anymore, but it means an awful lot to know you all are still here. Going to school is tough, first I'm a lot older than most of my class mates and second I expect a great deal more from myself then the kids fresh out of school do of themselves. I am slowly learning to identify my self as my current self and not identify as my victim of abuse self. Just that realization alone has brought me far from the depths of hell many of you know I found my head in most days.
The one thing that is still hard, is not telling too much. The full disclosure rule still haunts my thoughts and conversations. Even though I didn't talk in group hardly at all, I still feel like I have a WHOLE story to tell when someone asks about my life or asks just "Hey, how's it going?" When people ask how I am, I instantly think.. do you want the long version or the complementary .." im ok.." I never know what people expect in conversation. For instance, the other day me and a classmate were debating sociology and social-conflict .. you know,>> does every American actually have the same potential and opportunities, especially between racial boundaries.. And she started to say.. "Hey! I got myself to school after being raped ..etc.. so anyone should have the same motivation as me!" I surprised myself and responded.. "Shhh, you don't have to tell that about yourself..." ~~~Ok, so my point is, where is the normative boundary of the general population's comfort zone when hearing about violence and obscene abuse? Like, when is it appropriate and not, to just blurt out personal information about your own life? I have a hard time knowing where this boundary is, because I typically tend to just talk about all the horrific abuses I have been through as if I were talking about a shopping trip.. but sometimes people just look at me stunned.. and I am not sure how to interpret that....So, I am learning to not say too much. Is that right or is it a denial of the true self?
Any thoughts on that?
^.~ Look! I signed in.. I'm not an imposture =)
Thanks for posting. Everyone can plainly see it is PROGRAMS who engage in, teach and demand group-think. It is thier way. They try to disspell this by saying everyone else has group-think. Each time a program parent says "Fornits is group-think" what hey are actually doing is conforming to their own programmed group-think that all dessenters must be group-thinkers. Smart people understand this truth.
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Woof - That is where I am.. So I do examine questions like that before I answer. I have found extreme freedom from not SELF identifying as a victim. Now I am a working college student with good grades. So, I have stopped SELF identifying as a victim and it is an amazing transformation.. But, now I am finding myself discouraging others from self disclosing information and also, sometimes - when someone else discloses an abusive event.. I am not sure if I should disclose some event to them that would make them understand that I understand because I have been through a similar event too. I can't find a balance. It is a bit frustrating. One thing that is hard to keep in perspective is.. I am going to college with mostly 18-20 yr olds.....
Guest- You may have missed the point. WE ARE A GROUP TOO.. Fornits does have an element of group think, It is a little less destructive than PROGRAM group think.. but to deny it isn't happening here is ignorant to what group think means. There is a new field of psychology (Psychology of Negotiation) emerging which investigates how and why people make decisions, including in group settings. These psychologists are finding ways to have groups and have them thinking and making decisions.. but the psychologists are implementing ways that encourage free thought within a group.. Such as what we do here.. We here at fornits have naturally put into place dissenters (Spammers or satire characters) who refuse to agree and will intentionally cause dramatic discussion which ultimately draws out everyone's actual opinions.. and not just what would be accepted by the fornits "group".
Heading to class (Anatomy and Physiology. ugh) , Enjoy your day!
Speaking of Anatomy...In 2 weeks we will be dissecting cats 0.0 I am having a tough time accepting that... I mean, I don't even kill bugs knowingly...sigh. I save worms off the sidewalk.. (yea, so what the birds will have to look harder for them! ) lol
PS! Umm, Pirate wru!?
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So in essence as the industry improves and becomes more and more effective and less abusive the stronger the groupthink here on fornits will become driven by its greater isolation.
This is an acknowledgement that the industry is abusive, from a person who subjected his own offspring to this abusive industry, and now attempts to profit from this abusive industry.
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Guest- You may have missed the point. WE ARE A GROUP TOO.. Fornits does have an element of group think, It is a little less destructive than PROGRAM group think.. but to deny it isn't happening here is ignorant to what group think means. There is a new field of psychology (Psychology of Negotiation) emerging which investigates how and why people make decisions, including in group settings. These psychologists are finding ways to have groups and have them thinking and making decisions.. but the psychologists are implementing ways that encourage free thought within a group.. Such as what we do here.. We here at fornits have naturally put into place dissenters (Spammers or satire characters) who refuse to agree and will intentionally cause dramatic discussion which ultimately draws out everyone's actual opinions.. and not just what would be accepted by the fornits "group".
I am one of the ones that tries to shake things up and encourage free thought here through discussion. Every once in awhile I see someone step up and speak independently against the group views and it is refreshing. Those are the truely worthwhile discussions.
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So in essence as the industry improves and becomes more and more effective and less abusive the stronger the groupthink here on fornits will become driven by its greater isolation.
This is an acknowledgement that the industry is abusive, from a person who subjected his own offspring to this abusive industry, and now attempts to profit from this abusive industry.
Everything can be abusive!!! Going to church is abusive to those who dont want to be there. Public school is extremely abusive with teachers raping children and all the bullying and killings going on. Living at home can be abusive if your parents beat and make fun of you. Depends on the individual circumstances and points of view.
The trick is to take an industry or situation and refine and massage it so that it becomes more and more effective and less abusive.
As far as making a profit, if this rubs you the wrong way you picked the wrong country to live in.
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Woof - That is where I am.. So I do examine questions like that before I answer. I have found extreme freedom from not SELF identifying as a victim. Now I am a working college student with good grades. So, I have stopped SELF identifying as a victim and it is an amazing transformation.. But, now I am finding myself discouraging others from self disclosing information and also, sometimes - when someone else discloses an abusive event.. I am not sure if I should disclose some event to them that would make them understand that I understand because I have been through a similar event too. I can't find a balance. It is a bit frustrating. One thing that is hard to keep in perspective is.. I am going to college with mostly 18-20 yr olds.....
Guest- You may have missed the point. WE ARE A GROUP TOO.. Fornits does have an element of group think, It is a little less destructive than PROGRAM group think.. but to deny it isn't happening here is ignorant to what group think means. !?
Uh..a little less destructive than program? The protocols and "modality" of a program are not ''groupthink.' They're called abduction, imprisonment, thought reform,torture, violence, and homicide.
Torture, abuse, and thought reform have been proved to permanently inflict brain damage, cause suicide, and fatal health conditions. 10s of thousands have died due to abuse in "programs," in detainment and afterward.
As for the "groupthink" of fornits, I cant imagine an environment less conductive of it, as we post anonymously without any consequences (socially) for our opinions. I have posted some unpopular opinions not shared by the "authorities" or "leaders" here (moderators, frequent posters with avatars) and have not been swayed to their opinion by their arguments. i'd go so far as to argue fornits, and similar anonymous forums where you can use proxies, are "groupthink" minus environments.
Outside of fornits, yes groupthink does transpire on a constant basis.
Please do not conflate 'groupthink' with what goes on in 'programs' (of the abduction and imprisonment variety). It is irresponsible, and disrespectful to program victims, both dead and alive.
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As for the "groupthink" of fornits, I cant imagine an environment less conductive of it, as we post anonymously without any consequences (socially) for our opinions. I have posted some unpopular opinions not shared by the "authorities" or "leaders" here (moderators, frequent posters with avatars) and have not been swayed to their opinion by their arguments. i'd go so far as to argue fornits, and similar anonymous forums where you can use proxies, are "groupthink" minus environments.
If you read a little more here you might have witnessed it. Slightly out of step is tolerated. But if you go against the group you get tagged and labelled. A current example is a parent who is presently posting his experience with Aspen Ranch and he has been given many opportunities to get into step but has held steady as an independent thinker and so as a consequence has been labelled a sock puppet of the industry and a programmie. He refused to acknowledge that his son was kidnapped and taken to a gulag and tortured as many her view it. Until he sees that he made a mistake he will be badgered because stories like this force people out of their comfort zone and cause them to think on their own. Maybe have thoughts that kids “do” benefit from programs or that not all programs are abusive which could upset the balance here.
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Hah! Many of the "group" at Fornits agreed long ago that even we are a cult-like group think atmosphere. The above Anon hit it right on, if you aren't against programs here.. you are an outcast and subject to extreme ridicule... until the pro-programmie conforms... We are a destructive force on all opposing realities.
We "the group" didn't like to admit it and it was hard to swallow, but it was true enough. I had to even look at myself when it came to my desire for everyone to be at peace in an Alaskan homestead...... Boy that was a big dramatic argument.. LOL
By the way, someone said for instance that church is abusive to those who don't want to be there... My point is groups of all kinds are destructive no mater if you are a believer or a non believer.. It just may take a longer time to recognize the truth if you started out as a believer.
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As for the "groupthink" of fornits, I cant imagine an environment less conductive of it, as we post anonymously without any consequences (socially) for our opinions. I have posted some unpopular opinions not shared by the "authorities" or "leaders" here (moderators, frequent posters with avatars) and have not been swayed to their opinion by their arguments. i'd go so far as to argue fornits, and similar anonymous forums where you can use proxies, are "groupthink" minus environments.
If you read a little more here you might have witnessed it. Slightly out of step is tolerated. But if you go against the group you get tagged and labelled. A current example is a parent who is presently posting his experience with Aspen Ranch and he has been given many opportunities to get into step but has held steady as an independent thinker and so as a consequence has been labelled a sock puppet of the industry .
thats not 'group think' that's 'common sense' think. Posters know that you, whooter,(alleged to be John D Reuben, murderer of his own son) lie, impersonate, to service your cult.
viewtopic.php?f=49&t=28962 (http://fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=28962)
Your writing style is recognizable and seems to match "Nigels," ergo the belief that Nigel is your "sockpuppet." Moreover, thinking people are well aware of the financial gain involved in abduction, imprisonment and the resultant incentive for agents of AEG, other than you, to post 'positive' notices. People are wise to be suspicious of Nigels and other 'positive' posters authenticity-- Especially considering the scores of sworn testimony establishing torture and thought reform at AEG, AEG's sworn admission in court that they are not a provider of therapeutic treatment in any possible legal sense and their "program," has no therapeutic value, the media reports on AEG programs, the torture its founders and staff are known to have been involved in, AEG's cultic nature and origin, an their lack of contest that they participate in kidnap and false imprisonment, at the very least.
Further, it is not groupthink, but critical thinking that prevents a reader from embracing straight, the aarc, CEDU, Elan, Aspen Education Group's claims of providing "help."
Before there can be a claim of "help" made by an org, medical, scientific proof must be provided. There has never been anything of the sort. Meanwhile there has been much proof that the methods AEG or straight uses are psychologically, physiologically and physically murderous.
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thats not 'group think' that's 'common sense' think. Posters know that you, whooter,(alleged to be John D Reuben, murderer of his own son) lie, impersonate, to service your cult.
viewtopic.php?f=49&t=28962
Yes it is group think...... you dont know it because you are in the middle of it. But if you opened your mind a little you would know this.
Your writing style is recognizable and seems to match "Nigels," ergo the belief that Nigel is your "sockpuppet."
Wrong again, this belief just allows you to stay in your Comfort Zone. Seems every guest post is TheWho’s and you are batting almost zero in recognizing the writing style.
Moreover, thinking people are well aware of the financial gain involved in abduction, imprisonment and the resultant incentive for agents of AEG, other than you, to post 'positive' notices. People are wise to be suspicious of Nigels and other 'positive' posters authenticity-- Especially considering the scores of sworn testimony establishing torture and thought reform at AEG, AEG's sworn admission in court that they are not a provider of therapeutic treatment in any possible legal sense and their "program," has no therapeutic value, the media reports on AEG programs, the torture its founders and staff are known to have been involved in, AEG's cultic nature and origin, an their lack of contest that they participate in kidnap and false imprisonment, at the very least.
See there you go again, you really believe the AEG said that because you have a need to believe it. But we all know they didn’t say that. We know they have licensed therapists,dont we.
Further, it is not groupthink, but critical thinking that prevents a reader from embracing straight, the aarc, CEDU, Elan, Aspen Education Group's claims of providing "help."
Group think prevents opposing views and information from being discussed. Why not ask Nigel some questions about the Ranch? Because you dont want the truth.
Before there can be a claim of "help" made by an org, medical, scientific proof must be provided. There has never been anything of the sort. Meanwhile there has been much proof that the methods AEG or straight uses are psychologically, physiologically and physically murderous.
Show me a long term, independent, peer reviewed, published study that supports your view. See what I mean? The shoe is on the other foot. The programs help thousands of kids every year and you can find one or two a year who didn’t do well. Do you need a study to tip the scales?
You are immersed in the “Group think”, my friend, which is obvious by your post. Try to open your mind a little and see all the people that are being helped and the direction the industry is going.
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Hah! Many of the "group" at Fornits agreed long ago that even we are a cult-like group think atmosphere.
If the "the group" agrees that something is correct, that does not make it so. If anyone says fornits is a "cult like" group, they have no understanding of cults. For something to be a cult or even "cult like," it has to have a concerted effort to move inductees toward, or present, totalitarian oversight, organized manipulation of inductees by a central authority and coercive persuasion.
There is a difference between a "group" of people having the same beliefs and posting them on the same internet forum, and "groupthink," which is conformity driven by a subconscious motivation to conform.
So, while I am against abduction, torture, and false imprisonment, and know CEDU, Academy at Swift River, Straights to be cults, I think libertarianism is repulsive, and AA to be fine. Administrators and vocal posters think otherwise. Their opinion has never provoked me to hide mine and I have not been swayed to their p.o.v. In fact, I have gone from not thinking well of AA, to seeing it as a great organization, after reading up about it because it is frequently mentioned. If fornits was defined by "groupthink" this would not be the case. Saying "our" (therefore "my") anti-program beliefs and actions are "groupthink" is just ridiculous
My point is groups of all kinds are destructive no mater if you are a believer or a non believer..
IMO, groups are not inherently destructive. In fact, if you don't belong to any--say, even a "group" of friends or family, you are likely to develop serious problems. Physiologically, humans are not built for social isolation.
The above Anon hit it right on, .
The anon you agree with is Thewho, btw.
viewtopic.php?f=48&t=27903&start=0 (http://fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=27903&start=0)
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=16007 (http://fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=16007)
viewtopic.php?f=49&t=28962&start=0 (http://fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=28962&start=0)
if you aren't against programs here.. you are an outcast and subject to extreme ridicule...
I am against abduction, imprisonment and torture because it is evil, not because I want to be socially accepted by 85day jerk. My beliefs and posts on fornits stem not from "group think," but in getting tortured, and having very basic, empathy based concepts of "right" and "wrong."
I believe that the majority of anti posters have similar reasons for their beliefs.
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The anon you agree with is Thewho, btw.
Exactly, you need to label and tag a post which disagrees with you and threatens your comfort zone. No one could possibly have disagreed with us here, it must be TheWho. Every guest post which is pro program is TheWho.
Nah, you are not tied up with group mentality and you have an open mind to new ideas and discussion!! lol
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I am against abduction, imprisonment and torture because it is evil, not because I want to be socially accepted by 85day jerk.
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Awww, it's OK, you can admit to wanting 85dj's acceptance........
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Hmmmm...
@ Whooter, you said "So in essence as the industry improves and becomes more and more effective and less abusive the stronger the groupthink here on fornits will become driven by its greater isolation."
I dont deny the industry has made improvements and has become more and more effective and less abusive, I have worked in them. Crisis Units, Detox's, State Institutions and Private Institutions. Only an idiot would proclaim the lack of need for some individuals that despeately need help, either in a physical sence or a mental/emotional sence. And I have stated that many times without retaliation or rebuttal. Yes, it goes against "group thought", but so what, it is only my opinion.
Also, there is an abundance of literature offered at the top of every page on fornits covering a wide variety of thought on the subject. So with information comming in, and as people like myself speak thier minds, as there are "Gatherings"....I would like to see how Fornits (if you could illustrate how), and I am only guessing you mean all of us, are further isolated
If you have a fixed ideation, regarding Fornits and the survivors that gather here as being easily subjected to Group Thought, you are only partialy accurate. It is my experiance, as one furthers themselves from Straight Inc, a stronger sense of self, slowly begins to develop. As that happens people speak thier own minds more and more. Granted, this stirs the preverbal pot making for heated dialouge/debate. Considering this is a forum of discussion, this is inevitable, if not encouraged and most definately predictble. Open, Un-Moderated forum. Un-Moderated as I understand it means we are free to speak our minds and as such are also free to change our minds when we see fit, as individuals. That is the spirit of this forum, is it "Group Think", most probably. Is it organized, run, dictated by any one individual, I think not. It is a forum that attracts individuals to gather and try to come to some sense of peace with atrocities which we endured. We all have that in common, thus makes us a group. Most recognise the abuse for what it was/is and are extremly sensitive to that which occured, to this we can agree, so yes, there is a degree of Group Think. Our motives may be dissimilar, our methods range from gentle to abrasive, comical to tragedy. Our voices reflect our experiance, our memories of that experiance, our anger, our confussion and our sense of loss. What may be seen as Group Think in totality, is a collective experiance and a voicing of that experiance. Although similar, we are all different. It is a tall order to Celebrate our Diversity, yet I have found it simpler to accept and tolerate those differances.
It is not a question of "discrediting" a thought or the person presenting the thought, stereotyping as you mentioned. It is offering a counter point to an idea. Point-Counter Point as I see it is not a common occurence in Group Think as I understand it. You earlier wrote "Stereotyping those who oppose the group by tagging them as weak, evil or biased or name calling like programmie or sockpuppet (in this specific case) is common with all groups which developed groupthink."
We, and my assumption is that you also have come from a Group Think environent, such as Straight Inc. (perhaps not). Each of us are at various stages, or degrees of change/growth/healing. 'In this specific case', we are coming out of a disastrious scenario of Group Think, it is understandable that there are elements of Group Thought tendencies remaining. If after one falls into a pile of shit and while in route to cleanse onself off is ridiculed for smelling like shit....doesnt it seem absurd, and doesnt this seem to further isolate the individual from cleansing themself? This seems like a system based on exclusion rather than inclusion...a by-product of Group Think?
Am I engaging in Group Think if my thoughts are similar to the Guest who wrote after you? I think not, I simply agree. No harm, No foul.
@ Withdraw...In regard to the Victmhood issue pertaining to you.....Good! :)
Pertaing to others, I can only think of yet another teaching from Buddhist literature. It seems appropriate to me, but I may be off my mark...if it makes sense to you, wonderful....if not, disregard. The teaching says in effect:
The total amount of happiness
that exists in the world has come from wanting to make others happy.The total amount of suffering that exists in the world has come from wanting to make yourself happy.
What need is there for many words?
The children of the world work for their own sake; the Enlightened Ones do their labour for the sake of others. Come and see the difference. Come and make the difference!
The "balance", is for you to find, your experiance, your heart and your sense of what is right will have to guide you. This is your story, your book and sadly there are no ghost writers to assist you. You have come this far and despite any hardhips, appear to be fairing well. Keep on Keeping on!
Anat & Physiology where amoungst my favorite courses, but like you I would have difficulty dissecting cats (I have three beloved Maine Coons) I would rather work with cadavors.
@ Another Guest, or Same Guest- you wrote"Show me a long term, independent, peer reviewed, published study that supports your view. See what I mean? The shoe is on the other foot. The programs help thousands of kids every year and you can find one or two a year who didn’t do well. Do you need a study to tip the scales?
You are immersed in the “Group think”, my friend, which is obvious by your post. Try to open your mind a little and see all the people that are being helped and the direction the industry is going."
What is the need for "a long term, independent, peer reviewed, published study that supports your view" when the vast majority of us have lived the subject of this study ? I agree there are thousands of programs that indeed offer a life saving service. However, there are shit holes mixed in with that group as well...and we have acted on those shit holes and they have since been closed....not because of us, but due to unscrupulious individuals who can give a fuck about a childs welfare and dignity...Children do have the right to dignity, do they not?
Draw a comparrison to the Catholic Church, no doubt thousands have found relief in the sacred halls of symbolisim and hope and the church has done them a great service. But there are others that found thier butts in the air pointing directly at a priest's penis. Now, I have nothing against the Church as a whole, but I have issue with pedophilic priests. Do these individuals make the church bad? Perhaps in some eyes they do. Yet the church persists in helping people and it is unfortunate that there is pure evil in its midst. Same with the mental health care industry. Watch Dog groups are formed everyday for just this reason. Are we any different? Is that saying your Group Think can kick our Group Thinks ass? Absurd!
Sociologist tell us of the ancient needs for man to gather, rudimentary rules and regulations were set and followed, or face explusion from the group. Families, Clans, Tribes, Nations.....ultimately civilization, despite our best efforts, there is, was, will always be a degree of Group Think, it is intinctual and in part holds society together, such as it is.
Now, Back @ Withdraw-- It would be interesting, if only to myself, to know what your instrutor/professor has to say about this discussion. Print this discussion out and discuss it with them privately and request confidentiality, that the discussion be held between yourself and the intructor/professor.
"Group Think" as I see it (not pretending to know the academic deffinition) is a sociological phenomina, that takes place amoungst the masses, naturally without any pretense, it simply occurs. Problem comes when a charismatic individual enters the picture with an appealing rhetoric that on the surface agrees with the masses. The masses, as individuals think, yes, this individual thinks as I do, then evolves into 'thinking" as we do. Like herd animals we follow this seeming logic directly to a slaughter house. I forget who said it, but I think it is a wonderfull quote appropriate to this conversation.And the quote is as follows: The snare of all great thought is the uncritical acceptance of irrational assumptions.
A few of these charismatic people come to mind, Adolf Hitler, Jim Jones, David Koresh, Helen Peterman, Mel Sembler, George Ross, Miller Newton. Each of these people have or had a charismatic personality that knew how to work a crowd into a state of frenzy with an alarming ability to use fear as motivation, either on a national level, religious level or a parental level.
National pride is not at issue, religious zeal is not at issue, genuine parental concerns for thier off spring is not at issue. Yet the charismatic individuals, with thier own agendas sway the masses into following thier rhetoric, the irrational assumptions goobled up by a desperate group of individuals looking to be "saved" and so accept the rhetoric uncritically and suddenly (over time) find themselves in a desperate quagmire of destruction.
Again....Hmmmmm, much more could be said, but to what end. I must really set aside time during my normal waking hours to give this any further thought, 5 hours of sleep, 2 cups of coffee, makes more of a ramblin than a cohesive discussion. The irony is I care more for Withdraw and his/her struggles in shaking off the filth of Straight Inc than I do about whether Fornits is a Group Think tank or not. Psycologically speaking, my biggest question in regard to Group Think in Fornits is....So?
Much Pece
Much Healing
woof
OBTW...What does 85DJ have to do with any of this?
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@ Another Guest, or Same Guest- you wrote"Show me a long term, independent, peer reviewed, published study that supports your view. See what I mean? The shoe is on the other foot. The programs help thousands of kids every year and you can find one or two a year who didn’t do well. Do you need a study to tip the scales?
You are immersed in the “Group think”, my friend, which is obvious by your post. Try to open your mind a little and see all the people that are being helped and the direction the industry is going."
Woof - the ONLY Guest in this thread with pro-industry views and that has been accusing others of groupt think is WHooter, sock-puppet of Aspen. Sent both sons to programs, one ODd last year. but he still shills anyway
Whooter =programmie parent + Ed CON
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Oh look! It's working ;p
Woof- Thank you =) I like your sincerity... A tough accomplishment over the internet. In the example I told earlier about the other girl in my class disclosing the personal trauma.. I was shocked at myself for saying to her that she shouldn't tell that kind of thing in a public setting.. I am not sure why I responded to her that way. Maybe because I see now how information like that can be used to further the needs of others.. I mean, I see how it gives other people power over you and I didn't want her to allow that to happen. But I am not sure why I even cared..
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Woof, great post!! That has to rank in my top 10. I wish I had time today to address each aspect of it more thoroughly but I don’t today ….. all I can offer here is a quick rebuttal and open thoughts.
Fornits lacks a hunger for truth. You mentioned that there is an abundance of literature available at the top of each page. But the literature is prescreened prior to being placed there. There is no intention of providing reading which shows all sides of the issue.
I take your point well that survivors gather here and slowly begin to speak their own mind and I have seen it happen with my own eyes. But there is a desperation to hold onto the believe that every aspect of the industry is evil (and I don’t know why). For example if a survivor comes on fornits and says they were abused in a program and denied food, everyone would nod their heads and say yes these places are evil and take the story at face value. If on the other hand another poster comes on here and says they were helped by the program everyone is skeptical of that story and want more information so that they can dissect it and find a small tiny piece where he says he was screamed at by a staff member or told to sit by himself for 4 hours and study and we get HaaaHa! You were abused and you don’t realize it yet…..everyone breaths a sigh of relief that their comfort zone is still intact. But no one questions the one who said they were abused and denied food… why? My thoughts is that if they probe to much they may find out that they felt they were starved because they couldn’t have dessert because they were on restriction. It is much better to not ask questions and hold onto the belief that the person posting weighs 90 lbs and was brutally starved by the program.
This silence and partial truths slow down and limit the survivors ability to start to speak their own mind and question evenly and fairly. I refer to it as a group think because it is so fragile and the ideology is rigorously protected (if even unknowingly) by omitting books which would raise awareness that there are aspects of the industry that are helpful. The admins and people who could help along the readers towards free thinking do little themselves to support its progress. Ursus is the only person I have seen who would post information which may go against the group think here, but no one else dares.
People living within group think are afraid of facts and the introduction of new information or research which has been conducted outside the group. Years back I asked for volunteers to help put together a matrix which would help depict the number of kids killed in programs vs the public sector (an important endeavor one would think?) …but not one person wanted to be part of it. It was viewed as evil and foreign and I took a personal hit for even suggesting it. So I developed the matrix myself and when presented it was received very badly. The facts didn’t show what they wanted so they shunned the information and spent a great deal of time and energy trying to poke holes in it instead of discussing it and trying to understand the results. No one wanted the new information and it became obvious it was because it took them out of their comfort zone and made them think on their own a little more than they were use to and threatened the cohesiveness of the group as a whole.
But I have to go and apologize my post wasn’t more organized and isn’t intended to be fornits bashing. This is a good discussion and it is refreshing to start to see more open minded people like yourself, woof, who can see the bigger picture. I am hoping more people read this thread and discover something new about themselves and give them new understanding.
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Whooter has been well known as a hypocrite and a liar here for a long time. He impersonates all sorts of people and makes up 'data' that 'prove programs are safe and effective.' The only problem is that the data are made up out of thin air. This combined with Whooter's reputation as an awful liar are what keep people from joining his 'research activities,' not groupthink. The problem is that his reputation precedes him and almost everything he says is a lie. Why bother getting involved with someone so dishonest??
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Whooter has been well known as a hypocrite and a liar here for a long time. He impersonates all sorts of people and makes up 'data' that 'prove programs are safe and effective.' The only problem is that the data are made up out of thin air. This combined with Whooter's reputation as an awful liar are what keep people from joining his 'research activities,' not groupthink. The problem is that his reputation precedes him and almost everything he says is a lie. Why bother getting involved with someone so dishonest??
Your post just proved Whooters point. Why are you so afraid of information being posted here? If you believe info to be false or lies then ask for links or discuss the results and show them to be false by posting your view. But to try to just discredit someone because they have a different opinion just reinforces whooters argument.
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Posting as a guest in support of yourself was lame, and it hasn't improved with age. Can't wait until somebody sues your ass Reuben.
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@ Withdraw...Ya have a kind heart. It is quite simple. You cared because you have a kind heart. From a kind hear flows care and compassion as only pure water can flow from a spring. An orange tree will never produce an apple, only the apple tree will produce an apple, Just the same only a kind heart can care and convey compassion. Trouble seems to follow if some form of expectation is attached to that "Care & Compassion", at least it has in my direct experiance. Perhaps the only purpose for the past trauma you endured was to be uniquely qualified to extend your heart to this person...Be content with that and move on, If your experiance is needed again, a troubled soul will more than likely manifest infront of you somehow. As before the solution is simple, abide by your heart, care, convey your compassion. If that means relaying your experiance, do that. If that means whispering in the persons hear...Shhhhh, there may be dawgs about! Listen to your heart, that "inner voice" and obey your instinct. You simply do your part, the universe, god, karma or the life force (whatever) will be responcible for the results, which ya neednt concern yourself with. But dont take my word for it, test the theory, allow your direct experiance be the litmus test. Oh and during this process continue to be watchfull of your inner landscape and be gentle with yourself...we have a tendency not be so kind and caring between our own ears....which I attribute to Straight Inc. I am not saying be good to your inner child.....hell abort that child, and be kind to the adult that abides in your skin
@ Whooter-- I will with hold my thoughts at present, while you gather yours. However, I would say I write from my direct experiance when I speak of my time locked up 30+ years ago, this is my catharsis, gathering with those of similar experiance. Yes, I read and research, some of which contardicts my experiance and some that parralles my experiance. The research, the numbers, the statistics I have to take with a grain of salt...because it was not my direct personal experiance. Does this reading spread my vision, give something to chew on for a while? Most certainly. Even researchers like the late Margret Singer PhD. and Robert Lifton PhD , even tho thier research and writings confirm and validate my experiance, I do not rely on them as my direct personal experiance. And they certainly are not the epicenter of my opinion. I would like to know your personal experiance. I would like to know who you are. I would like to know if you are a survivor. I would like to know you as you are. I do not dismiss articles or studies, but they do not touch the human level, that of direct experiance. It is here where we can examine our own hearts and that which rests tween our ears. A statistic will never do that for us.
So, as you prepair your rebuttal and compse your "open thoughts"...please leave space for your direct personal experiance....who you are, where you have been, what you have done, what you wish had been done diferently. Something I can chew on rather than mental, intellectual/emotional, statistical froth of which we may or may not connect with. I will be able to connect better with you reading your personal experiance.....either as a survivor or a parent of a survivor (as I said, I do not know who you are...only what I have read, which is taken with a grain of salt) Once we know each other, then we can afford the luxury of debating the studies, statistics, points and counter points. With the hope of true dialouge.
LOL Alot of writting for witholding my thoughts, but I have. We have only scratched the surface! Perhaps in due respect to Withdraw, in your rebuttal, begin a new thread (with my surname, Woof, so I can notice it) this way we no longer monopoloze and hijack Withdraw's thread.
I wish:
Much Peace
Much Healing
woof
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It's not a problem, he can say what he wants in this thread too. Maybe, he does not realize who I am or what my experience was. It was so horrifying in Straight being a mis-behaver and not understanding why almost everyone around me was going along with the abuse. It was like trying to wake up from a nightmare everyday. I could not conform and in a lot of ways that was much worse ,for me, than pretending or conforming. Maybe he doesn't realize that because of that, I was not only emotionally but also physically abused on a daily basis. I harbor pure hate for all thought reform, in all it's forms. My parents were asked to withdraw me for a reason, and it must have been because it worried Straight that I lasted so long w/o participating. It certainly wasn't because .... > I was beyond reach...< because once I got out of that place.. I was fine.. except for the post traumatic issues I have from the experience.
He will never convince me that any program out there is helpful at all. If you remember last semester I wrote an 11 page paper for English about the horrors of thought reform programs. I did plenty of research then. He will never convince me that sending a child to any program can in fact nurture a parent-child relationship in a way that is beneficial to both parent and child. Straight has destroyed my whole family... It is amazing to even see how it lingers in the way my sister distorts and controls the reality of her children.. One of which is 20 yrs old, goes to college, has never drank or tried smoking anything... and still has never been allowed to leave the county. Its pretty sick how Straight screwed up my whole family forever.
So say what you want, but don't bother saying any of it for my "benefit"... because I will have already realized you too are still caught up in the "wash"... just like my twisted family. Sad, really... sad. People that still advocate for programs are nothing more than proof that their brand of brainwashing works... not that it is safe or beneficial.
Blah, blah.. I rambled.. time for coffee and see who I ticked off by talking about my experience as a non conformist.. LOL.. Whatever =)
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I think we were programmed to self destruct, once you break the glass you got to scrounge up your pieces as best you can and get busy with your picture...
o disclose and when and not knowing what is appropriate...jeez I know what you mean...
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Absolutely! The whole DEADINSANEINJAIL thing.........and the 12Stepization of our culture at large does nothing to discourage anyone from buying into that shit. It reinforces the programming.........and at the risk of sounding like one of the "TBPITW" fanatics, I have found marijuana to be more helpful with less side effects than any of the meds I have been prescribed (anti-anxiety, SSRI antidepressants, etc.). Not that it "makes it all go away", but it does seem to help me cope with the aftereffects of the program.
I agree, though, the best any of us can do at this point is to pick up the pieces.
As far as the "disclosure" thing goes, I don't tell anyone unless they have gained my trust, and maintained it for at least a year. I don't really see people I knew pre-Str8 much, so unless I bring it up, most people don't know that I spent my late teenage years getting mindfucked by some quack and his brainwashed followers.
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Dragonfly! hey =)
Good to see you're hanging in there. Me too, just college is really odd. First off it's a lot of work, and second the whole social portion is difficult for me. I am not shy or anything, but it is hard for me to know what is appropriate behavior for the whole college scene. Pirate talks about this a lot.. It is like our social skills were stripped away or distorted in some way..And now I am faced with it in public everyday. It wouldn't be so bad "if I didn't care what those people thought..." But I must care, some of "those people" grade my papers and exams ;p ( I am not saying I like or agree with this "keeping up an image thing".. but I don't have a choice right now)
As for the other part of this thread... I do not publicly self disclose my life's traumas...but, I am finding myself trying to encourage classmates (who are very outspoken)to be careful with their own self disclosure... which seems odd to me. I am not sure which is socially acceptable... talking openly or being protective about disclosing personal traumatic events. Ugh, now I am just confusing myself.. sigh. LOL
**I guess for now I just have to {{ keep putting one foot in front of the other and doing what I have to do to get where I am going... While maintaining the relationships which serve me best.}} (That has been my mantra to keep my focus and motivation up for the last 2 yrs or so)
Peace2u!
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It sounds like you druggies need to apply your 6th step and improve your conscious contact with someone who has been there all along for you -- the Lord Jesus Christ, our one and only savior! A relationship with God is the most important relationship there ever was and ever will be for anyone, and will "serve you best." Now get to praying for the salvation of your miserable druggie souls!!! :flame:
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:bump: