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2 die, 19 overcome at Arizona retreat sweat lodge

By FELICIA FONSECA (AP)

PHOENIX — Two people died and an estimated 19 others were taken to hospitals after being overcome while sitting in a sauna-like sweat lodge during a Sedona spiritual retreat, authorities said Friday.

Sixty-four people were in a crudely constructed sweat dome at the 70-acre Angel Valley resort Thursday evening, Yavapai County sheriff's spokesman Dwight D'Evelyn said. The resort nestled in the forest about 20 minutes from Sedona, a resort town about 115 miles north of Phoenix that is well-known as a center for the New Age spiritual movement.

Many people began feeling ill after about two hours in the sweat box, emerging lightheaded and weak, said Verde Valley Fire District Chief Jerry Doerksen. Authorities haven't determined the cause of the deaths and illnesses; tests for carbon monoxide and other contaminants were negative. D'Evelyn said authorities were checking into whether any of the attendees had pre-existing medical conditions and the possibility that some of the people might have been fasting.

About 21 people were taken by ambulance or helicopter to area hospitals, where two were pronounced dead, D'Evelyn said. The dead were identified only as a man and woman, both middle-aged.

Three people taken to Flagstaff Medical Center were listed in critical condition Friday, and another was in fair condition. Three others who were admitted to a hospital in nearby Verde Valley recovered quickly; two of them were released overnight and one was reported in good condition Friday.

Sheriff's homicide investigators were working to determine what happened and whether any criminal actions might have been a factor in the incident, D'Evelyn said. Investigators were at the resort Friday interviewing the retreat director, staff and guests, including some who told detectives they paid up to $9,000 for the multi-day program.

A woman who answered the phone at the resort Friday said its founders, Michael and Amayra Hamilton, would have no comment. A call to the Hamilton's home went unanswered.

Authorities said self-help expert and author James Arthur Ray rented the facility and was hosting the group inside the dome, a low-lying structure covered with tarps and blankets. In a testimonial on the retreat's Web site, Ray said it "offers an ideal environment for my teachings and our participants."

Ray's company, James Ray International, is based in Carlsbad, Calif.

A spokesman for Ray, Howard Bragman, confirmed that Ray was holding an event at the retreat, as he has done in the past.

"We express our deepest condolences to those who lost friends and family, but we pray for a speedy recovery for those who took ill," said Bagman. "At this point there are more questions than answers, so it would not be appropriate to comment further."

On Ray's Web site, a guide for participants of the five-day "Spiritual Warrior Event" includes a lengthy release of liability that acknowledges participants may suffer "physical, emotional, financial or other injuries."

Doerksen, whose fire district responded to emergency calls, said he sent a hazardous materials team into the sweat lodge to test for carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide and other contaminants. The test "didn't show anything out of the ordinary," he said.

The Angel Valley Spiritual Retreat Center, built on former ranch property in the high-desert and red-rock country of northern Arizona, bills itself as a natural environment for self discovery and healing through a holistic approach aimed at balancing the mind, emotions, body and spirit.

The property includes American Indian structures such as teepees, guest houses and outdoor labyrinths made of stones.

Associated Press Writer Jacques Billeaud contributed to this report.

:birthday:

This isnt new. The reason kids are subjected to this shit is because it looked so fancy and sparkly to adults, they decided to implement it in the program.

If it weren't for EST and lifespring and motivational speakers/LGATs in general, we wouldnt have as much of this shit.

Oh, come off it! How many people have never built (or been in) a sweat lodge before at least once in their lives? 95% of people living in the north have experienced this as a kid or at a college outing, its nothing new. As an adult it would be a nice experience to go to a retreat where someone else builds the sweat lodge and maintains the fire so that you can enjoy it and then just head back to your room afterwards without having to clean everything up.
This is far from a program or cult idea.

try another.. yup! uh huh! est, the forum, esalen, etc,etc, etc, ad nauseum. Dangerous as hell. prolific as hell, too. Critical thinking is hard work, so most are unwilling., why bother when you've got Oprah and dr. phil to tell ya what to think and feel

I think the op was speaking more towards the whole co-opting of something like a sweat lodge, and have it be used for a bunch of stupid assed new agers.

Cultural warfare is nothing new, and indians are always such a hot commodity when it comes to things like sports teams, sleepaway camp, legalized gambling, and getting in touch with your spirit animal. It is certainly nothing new when it comes to people of new age, hippie ilk.

Anyway, we had our very own redskin fetish-fest at CEDU. The Ishi expedition. Complete with sweat lodge. Invite only.

Nothing evil or wrong about a sweat lodge. But its definitely one of those "features" you may discover present at your favorite program. Along with a copy of the prophet, or some other shit that has nothing to do with the program. BUT.. there is still a reason why those particular things seem to get assimilated so much, and so inappropriately, in the name of mental health or therapy.

Sorry man, but if you aint an indian, you got no business using a sweat lodge to get in touch with your spiritual side. I mean, you can, but dont expect anything special, except for a lighter wallet. And hell, they are a great wet sauna, but the blue corn maiden is NOT going to speak to you, so just forget it.

Man, one of my favorite snarky films is The New Age with Judy Davis and Peter Weller. It's fucking out of print and I am sooo bummed. It's hilarious.

Been reading here for years and never knew that programs used sweat lodges as part of their program. I use to build them growing up on trips to Maine and as a teenager it was a great experience striping down and hanging out until we were intoxicated by too much weed and wine or not enough oxygen... laughing about how the Indians had the good life.
I am a little curious now of how programs used this. Did they have the kids sit in sweat lodges for long periods? Because if they are not built properly or controlled that could be very dangerous. I wouldnt want my kid in there unless there were professionals around overseing the lodges.

Quote from: "Guest"

Been reading here for years and never knew that programs used sweat lodges as part of their program. I use to build them growing up on trips to Maine and as a teenager it was a great experience striping down and hanging out until we were intoxicated by too much weed and wine or not enough oxygen... laughing about how the Indians had the good life.
I am a little curious now of how programs used this. Did they have the kids sit in sweat lodges for long periods? Because if they are not built properly or controlled that could be very dangerous. I wouldnt want my kid in there unless there were professionals around overseing the lodges.

Nope, the lodge at CEDU was fine, as far as I knew. (Large tarp + fire + hole for fire + crap to hold up tarp) We weren't in there overly long, not any longer than when we hung out in the sauna at the pond. Seemed to be built ok. The guy in charge of the Ishi was a total indian-fetishist, so he studied that shit good.

He was also a lecherous slug and ended up sleeping with a student.

So... you can see why a sweat lodge can certainly pass safety and structure muster and still be a creepy experience, right? It has about 100% to do with who's in the fucking lodge, sweating their ass off next to you, bathing suit or no. It was just gross. I didn't want to be crammed next to any of these people, especially sweaty. At least the sauna at the pond had space for people to spread out on the benches.

And it stands as yet another stupid attempt at appropriating shit that had no business being there.

Quote

Oprah

Speaking of someone who needs to be in a sweat lodge.... for about a decade.

Problem is shell come back out talking about how great it was and then her advice will, once again, get a bunch of people killed.

Re-post of the OP:

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The Associated Press
2 Die, 19 Overcome at Arizona Retreat Sweat Lodge (http://http://abcnews.go.com/US/Health/wireStory?id=8791860)
2 die, 19 others taken to hospitals after being overcome at Arizona retreat's sweat lodge

By FELICIA FONSECA Associated Press Writer
PHOENIX October 9, 2009 (AP)

(http://http://a.abcnews.com/images/US/3cc30dd5-74fb-41c2-bcc4-2e1b6c934b38_mn.jpg)
This undated photo provided by the Yavapai County Sheriff's Office shows a "sweatbox" structure at Angel Valley resort in Sedona, Ariz. Two people died and an estimated 19 others were taken to hospitals Thursday Oct. 8, 2009, after being overcome while sitting in the sauna-like sweat lodge, authorities said. (AP Photo/Yavapai County Sheriff's Office) (AP)

A sauna-like sweat lodge at an Arizona resort meant to provide spiritual cleansing became the scene of a police investigation Friday when more than a dozen people became ill during a two-hour session and two later died.

In all, 21 of the 64 people crowded inside the sweat lodge Thursday evening received medical care at hospitals and a fire station. Four remained hospitalized Friday evening — one in critical condition and the others in fair condition.

Authorities haven't determined the cause of the deaths and illnesses; tests for carbon monoxide and other contaminants were negative. Yavapai County sheriff's spokesman Dwight D'Evelyn said authorities were checking into whether any of the attendees had medical conditions or were fasting.

Among those sickened were a middle-aged man and a woman who were unconscious, according to a 911 call, and a third person who was found not breathing.

"It's not something you'd normally see at one of the resorts there, and it's unfortunate regardless of the cause," D'Evelyn said.

Investigators were working to determine whether criminal actions might have been a factor in the incident, D'Evelyn said.

The Angel Valley Retreat Center sits on 70 acres nestled in a scrub forest just outside Sedona, a resort town 115 miles north of Phoenix that draws many in the New Age spiritual movement.

Self-help expert and author James Arthur Ray rented the facility as part of his "Spiritual Warrior" retreat that began Oct. 3 and that promised to "absolutely change your life."

Ray spokesman Howard Bragman confirmed that his client was holding an event at the retreat, as he has done in the past. Authorities said Ray was inside the sweat lodge Thursday evening and was interviewed at the scene.

"We express our deepest condolences to those who lost friends and family, but we pray for a speedy recovery for those who took ill," Bragman said. "At this point there are more questions than answers, so it would not be appropriate to comment further."

(http://http://a.abcnews.com/images/US/abc_resort_deaths_091009_mn.jpg)
Two people are dead and several others were injured after collapsing at a Northern Arizona retreat center Thursday, officials said. Sedona Fire Department Spokesperson Gary Johnson said officials responded to a call at Angel Valley Retreat Center around 5 p.m. Thursday, when multiple people collapsed after exiting a sweat lodge on the property. (KNXV/ABC News)

Sweat lodges, like that held on the final day of the Angel Valley retreat, are commonly used by American Indian tribes to cleanse the body and prepare for hunts, ceremonies and other events. The structure used Thursday was crudely built and covered with tarps and blankets.

Stones are heated up outside a lodge, brought inside and placed in a pail-sized hole. The door is closed, and water is poured on the stones, producing heat aimed at releasing toxins in the body.

The ritual in sweat lodges is helpful in restoring balance and changing people's attitudes and self-image, said Joseph Bruchac, author of "The Native American Sweat Lodge: History and Legends."

People have died in sweat lodges in the past. They were either sick tribal elders who voluntarily stayed until they died or people who had heart conditions and were in poor health.

"The sweat lodge needs to be respected," Bruchac said. "When you imitate someone's tradition and you don't know what you are doing, there's a danger of doing something very wrong."

Ray's retreat schedule had few details about what participants could expect, other than thrice-daily meals and group gatherings that started at 7 a.m. and ended 16 hours later.

The details came in a lengthy release of liability that acknowledges participants may suffer "physical, emotional, financial or other injuries" while hiking or swimming, or during a multi-day personal and spiritual quest in the wilderness without food or water or the sweat lodge.

Some participants told detectives they paid up to $9,000 for the event. Ray's company, James Ray International, is based in Carlsbad, Calif.

Ray's posting on his Twitter account hours before the deaths said: "Still in Spiritual Warrior ... for anything new to live something first must die. What needs to die in you so that new life can emerge?"

The posting and two others were deleted Friday afternoon.

A woman who answered the phone at the Angel Valley resort Friday said its founders, Michael and Amayra Hamilton, would have no comment. A call to the Hamiltons' home went unanswered.

The Angel Valley Spiritual Retreat Center, built on former ranch property in the high-desert and red-rock country of northern Arizona, bills itself as a natural environment for self discovery and healing through a holistic approach aimed at balancing the mind, emotions, body and spirit.

The property includes American Indian structures such as teepees, guest houses and outdoor labyrinths made of stones.

———

Associated Press Writer Jacques Billeaud also contributed to this report.

Copyright 2010 The Associated Press.

Comments (http://http://abcnews.go.com/US/Health/comments?type=story&id=8791860) for the above article, "2 Die, 19 Overcome at Arizona Retreat Sweat Lodge (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=28923&p=367200#p367200)" (By Felicia Fonseca; October 9, 2009; Associated Press):

Posted by: FormerJewNowWiccan · 10/9/09:

It is my opinion that someone placed herbs in the lodge, where the rocks are heated and steam comes up, and those herbs caused everyone to get sick and the 2 to die. This was done either deliberately or the person using the herbs picked the wrong one.Posted by: etbrand9 · 10/9/09:

Transform? Heal? Nourish? Ummmmm. Unless death does all three to us humans.Posted by: goldstar3143 · 10/9/09:

STUPID, STUPID, STUPID. All for what? A little spirituality. Go work in an orphanage for a while. That will make you spiritual.Posted by: GMJ4201 · 10/9/09:

If they had the right herbs they would all be eating Pizza and chilling out! thats my opinion - LEGALIZE IT !! ;)Posted by: BAM-BAM 7 · 10/9/09:

maybe the hippy / newage movement will learn from this and FINALLY realize that they SHOULD NOT copy / reproduce / sell / disrespect or mock such a SACRED ceremony .. the sweatlodge ceremony is a native-american ceremony that is conducted ONLY by a pipe-carrier or medicine man of native- american descent.. not by some dope-smoking hippy, not by someone who just " found out that they have indian blood from their grandmother " , not by going to a geneology website and " becoming " native all of a sudden, not by osmosis, not by a non-native who ONCE WENT to a native ceremony, etc.. the sacred sweatlodge ceremony should only be conducted by a trained native elder. this training comes in various ways, too sacred to talk about here. it is NOT a diploma or a right. it is a privilige given only to a few worthy teachers. the lodge can be dangerous if conducted by the WRONG person. these new-age people usually no NOTHING of the spiritual aspects of native ceremonies.people that go to ceremonies should and must be 100 % drug/ alcohol free. no exceptions. i have never been to this " retreat " in arizona, but trust me, i have seen it ALL before. fancy high-dollar resorts, hippy camps,etc. these people in charge have NO IDEA what they are doing. they should not offer native american style services.if someone truly wants to learn native ways , they should go to the reservations, look for a traditional elder, make an offering ( tobacco ) , and ask for help, healing, prayers, etc. IF you are sincere that elder might help you. sometimes we are distrustful of non-natives. ( can you really blame us ? ) .. that resort in arizona should stick with mudbaths,etc. stuff they know. i am of MICMAC descent, i have been to sweatlodges all over north america, and i have NEVER heard of someone dying as a result of attending a sweat. not a real one. i have heard of and seen great healings as a result of attending sweats.by the way , money is never charged at a REAL native ceremony... BAM-BAM, MICMAC NATIONPosted by: Indigenous coyote · 10/9/09:

As a Native American and have been pouring water at a sweat lodge for the past 27 years and know that when done in a proper manner and not for profit such as some do it is a enlightening experiance and it seems that the one in Sedona was too extreme with that many individuals at one time and the amount of rocks and length inside should be in moderation. There is a manner in which it is said to whoever is conducting to "Pour to your weakest link" meaning not to get it strong enough to harm the individual who may appear to be having difficulties while in side. Some think the Stronger the better yet you always have to look out for the one individual who may not fare as strong as others and cater to their strengths. To all relationsPosted by: ne-wa-ya-was-ena · 10/9/09:

Many people attempt to take from the Native American Indian when they have never lived that path. A path you cannot learn in a day or a week or a month or . . . It is a walk of a sacred road we know and hold many shields to protect it and those shields are never for sale or taking. Don't look to others' beliefs for your spiritual path journey, Creator has given you your way to find, look within. Remember the giveaway is most sacred but it has nothing to do with white-man dollars. I too have been in many sweat lodges for many years but I am native and learned well the red path from elders before me and the Great Creator not a money grubber. We have been at war now for 577 years against those that would steal or buy our secrets to the sacred path. Will you never learn, Our Ways Are Not For Sale. i-gi-utsa-ani-yun-waya-tsalagiPosted by: MD_Mickey · 10/9/09:

ne-wa-ya-was-ena wrote: "Many people attempt to take from the Native American Indian when they have never lived that path." +++++ Additionally, many con-artists try to portray themselves as experts in native, "natural" healing - whether it's Native American, Chinese Traditional Medicine, or European traditional herbalism, and don't actually know what they're doing - except that they're ripping people off. For example, a Chinese doctor, trained in both Eastern and Western medicine, who lectured my tour group on a Yangtze River Cruise, explained that some Chinese methods have always been considered "preventive" medicine only: like Tai Chi for stress relief - and Western medicine acknowledges that stress causes many illnesses (I did it every morning under an expert's direction as we sailed through the Three Gorges - and it works!). But in America you see many of them portrayed as "cures".Posted by: the elephant man · 10/9/09:

sounds like a cultPosted by: Colorado mountain girl · 10/9/09:

Sad really. I feel sorry for the "seekers" who feel and emptyness in their souls and are so looking for the right path to heal them. I know it takes much trust from a native elder to share any teachings with us white newcomers and rightly so perhaps. Many are flippant and unfocused. Looking for a quick fix to the ills of the soul that they embody. To truely seek we must show great respect and earn the right to have someone share teachings with us. It makes no sense to try to replicate a ceremony such as the sweat lodge without the guidence of a true elder or medicine man, for without such the exercise is ritual devoid of the spark of magic that such an individual brings to the service. A hollow reinactment at best. A sacrement at worse.Posted by: TOMAS1234Y · 10/9/09:

Who wants to be in a saunna with 64 people? Not me.Posted by: Cherrikey · 10/9/09:

After reading the story and seeing the pictures ...it stands to reason that people got hurt because they didn't cover the lodge correctly. You NEVER cover a lodge with plastic or tarps!! Not to mention, you NEVER pay to go into a sweat. This is what happens when people play with stuff they don't understand.Posted by: oonogil2 · 10/10/09:

Jijalagi. Oonogil dawado. There are as many different Native American religions as there are tribes. Some sweat, some sundance, some do other things. These are things that are sacred to our people. They aren't something neat to do on vacation so you'll have a story to tell your friends. Be content to attend a pow-wow if it's open to the public. Buy some fry bread mix and tell us about your grandmother who was a Cherokee princess. Paying a charlatan for a sweat lodge is a waste of money at best. At worst, it's a waste of a life. .... My condolences to the families and friends. Please don't blame Indians. I doubt if any were there.Posted by: Edmund_Dantes- · 10/10/09:

I am sure that it was the wrong coverings or coverings that had been on there for so long that they built up black mold or mildew. Toxins from plastic and other chemically treated coverings could become overwhelming upon the heavy duty sweat sessions of normal sweat lodges. An autopsy with focus on the lungs will probably provide the quick answers.Posted by: Publius_2K · 10/10/09:

"An autopsy with focus on the lungs will probably provide the quick answers." - Edmund_Dantes. Mold and mildew wouldn't be necessary to kill someone. Heat build-up in the body would be enough, and sitting in hot steam so that your perspiration couldn't evaporate and cool you down could do that. Soak in a hot tub long enough to raise your core body temperature and the same thing can happen to you. Just a few degreee is enough to kill you. I tend to think that the "visions" some get from these sort of experiences are not different from heat-induced delirium and hallucinations.Posted by: BAM-BAM 7 · 10/10/09:

do you think james ray ( the white self- proclaimed healer, prophet, guru, etc. ) will be attending the funerals of any of the people he killed in his hippy lodge? i doubt it. not unless the next of kin cough up another 9,000 bucks for his " holiness " to make an appearance. .... also, i just came from this guys website- jamesray.com.. WHAT A JOKE !!!! why do people fall for such fairy tales?? this guy mostly just teaches about money and it's sacredness. he mentions money or financial wealth even when he's " trying " to talk spiritually. he also mentions some of his experiences in south america and around natives. to me, he made it sound like being around natives was a chore and unpleasant. he was there on a mission to learn a couple of native tricks so he could start selling them in the usa.. ... i would NEVER go in a hippy lodge like his or ANY OTHER hippylodge. i only go to the sacred nativelodge.. but honestly, i do wonder- does this ray and his followers chant songs to the " money-gods " in their lodge? ! ? ! .. ....... BAM-BAM, MICMAC NATIONPosted by: CountyCook · 10/11/09:

My sympathy to all those who participated in this retreat.64 people paying $9,000.00 each = $576,000.00. Not a bad income for a weekend of "spiritual work." I commend the participants for trying to follow a spiritual path. Looking forward, I recommend that we all stay spiritually and physically attuned to the stench of greed. If you arrive at a retreat, and it doesn't feel right, just leave. Trust yourself, trust your own instincts, not some guru. For sixty-four people, Mr. Ray should have prepared five or more lodges. Charles-mPosted by: MrsMom35 · 10/12/09:

My sympthy goes out to all families involved. Mr. Ray has alot of explaining to do...... but we all know he is hiding behind his lawyers/advisors... You know he has the best working for him, how much does he make again? To all his followers... I will suggest therapy maybe? Talk to someone who is qualiied and find out what is missing or what you think is missing.... You do not need to be rich or make somene rich be spiritual......Posted by: MrsMom35 · 10/12/09:

My symath to all the families involved, now it time to find out what is missing or what people think they are missing that would make them turn to someone like Mr. Ray. You do not need to pay to be spiritual or be accepted by God.Posted by: VictorVictorious001 · 10/12/09:

James Ray is not guilty of murder. He isn't guilty of anything. All 64 people drove to that location of their own free will and they all hopped into a hot tent (oven) of their own free will. Each human being on this planet is responsible for their own safety when they have a choice. These people had a choice. No rights were taken away or violated. They were just STUPID. If you are to convict James Ray for the choices that these people made (which ended in their own death), then you are descriminating against freedom of religion. It doesn't matter what the outcome is. Who says it has to be a happy outcome? Besides, what happened to everyone's religious faith? Actually, from a religious perspective, I would have to say that everything went off extraordinarily well! What more could religious people want than to have two mortal souls die and go to heaven? Isn't that ultimately what religious people are hoping for? No matter WHAT religious people get, they are always complaining about their rights or the failure of an outcome according to their own expectations. Well, isn't it "God" who keeps telling religious people that they don't make decisions for "him" and that it isn't up to them to decide what is best? OK THEN... so, two very stupid people out of 63 very stupid people (and one very smart man... James Ray who got paid 1/2 million dollars for the weekend outing) are dead while the world or religion complains and wrongfully accuses a man of murder. Hey, don't mess with religion because if you do, you are talking about religious descrimination here! I would say it went quite perfectly, myself. The intent, of course, was to "wash their bodies clean" of "whatever." Well now... who is anyone to judge what "God" must have seen in those two dead bodies "souls" the "he" saw it necessary to "take them to heaven" (or cast them to hell). You can't second guess "God" is what religious people always say... until something goes wrong. Where is faith now?!Posted by: Parvati1008 · 10/14/09:

I find it offensive this is even being called a "sweat lodge"! I agree 100% with Bam Bam and many of the other postings. Where is the cover story from the Native American point of view? I've been in very hot lodges with many people with the results being healing and nothing close to an injury. why? it was run by a true medicine man. Mitakuye OaysinPosted by: Parvati1008 · 10/14/09:

I'm offended this is even referred to as a sweat lodge...I agree with Bam Bam and many of the other postings. Where is the cover story from the Native American perspective. I've participated in lodges aka inipis for 20 years in incredible hot climates, hot lodges, with often many people. the results were only healing never harm. why? medicine men were running the lodge.Posted by: stormthecastleneville · 10/16/09:

To VictorVictorious... How can you say that these people were stupid? Did you know them? Why don't you tell that to the beautiful wife and 3 gorgeous small children that James left behind? These "stupid people" as you call them, put their trust and faith into a man that was supposed to be looking out for their best interest in healing. I am appalled that people like you so righteously speak about things like this, like you have a direct line with God to know the answer. His children are divine enough to know that their father had a higher purpose to serve and is the reason that he can't be with them anymore; but I can assure you that this was not a stupid man. He was the most sensitive, gentle man I ever met and you should be ashamed to cast judgement in one sentence, and then speak of the almighty judge in another. Judge not, lest ye be judged yourself.Posted by: chaosdee69 · 10/19/09:

The sweat lodge is a very sacred and holy place. You cant just run a sweat because you read a book. It takes years of preperation to be given the right to run a sweat. It would be like me going to a church and standing up in front of the congregation and saying I'm your preacher now listen to me without any formal training. Look I am very sorry that these people were injured and died, but maybe now the white world will realize that being a Native American is a fad or a joke. For us it is not a religion it is a way of life that cant be converted to. There are some who are adopted and truly understand, but unfortunately there are many who dont get it. This man is a criminal and if he is truly a leader than he will stand up and be accountable for his horrific mistake and obvious lack of good judgement. As I was saying you can convert to Judaism, christianity, catholocism, Hindu, Muslim, Mormonism, you name it you can convert, except for Native American Spirituality. Maybe now people will understand before any more innocent and naive people get hurt.Posted by: QTEEPIE13 · 10/19/09:

3 men collapse, die in marathon- Will Detroit be sued for the 3 men that died running the marathon?Posted by: crownnumber39 · 10/30/09:

These people have gotten completely carried away with themselves. A little fame leads to fortune, and then the fortune turns to greed. The very people who are "preaching" these philosophies have been seduced by their hunger for power and wealth. It is so sad that people lost their lives at this event. And so stupid that people paid $9000 to attend the event in the first place, and support the ongoing, ridiculous greed and misuse of power of people like James Ray. In this case, my apologies as a white person to the Native Americans and their rituals that have been subject to abuse by ignorant persons who have no idea who they are. I lived in Hawaii for years, and I was humbled by the Hawaiians and their rituals. I learned about them out of respect so that I could have understanding. However, I never pretended to be a Hawaiian. I did see it all around me though. As so the 3 men dying in the marathon--you cannot compare that to this. Well, perhaps on the stupidity level you can. James Ray should be prosecuted for murder. He had no idea what he was doing.

Copyright © 2010 ABC News Internet Ventures.

What you describe sounds very similar.
We use to vacation up in a remote part of Maine on the Canadian border and would construct what we called a Sweat Lodge. We covered it in old blankets after the fire was really hot and filled with stones. We were all teenagers mostly meeting others who were vacationing and also some locals and the rule was no clothes but the girls would wear towels or over-sized men shirts usually. We use to smoke and then solve all the worlds problems. When we got too hot we would jump in the lake and then go back in. We used to feel so good afterwards. We slept like babies and would talk about it the whole next day. Some of the kids from the city would freak out and go home. I think it was just too much of a culture shock, being around trees was enough stimulation for them. So I think how a person reacts depends on where they are coming from.

Looking back the magical effect was caused by heat, a lack of oxygen to the brain along with getting high.

We came up with some of the best ideas during those summers. I could see how people could try to develop that into a therapy of sorts.

...

Sitting Bull, a Hunkpapa Lakota chief and holy man, (Tatanka Iyotake) his birth name.

Danny wrote:
Sitting Bull was said to be a Chief that carried the burdens of his people within his soul and released the pain his tribe endured through sweating. This I cannot document, I heard prior to entering a sweat in So.Dakota.
The sweat lodge was considered " mothers womb". Mother being earth, Mothers Earth.

Sitting Bull spoke:
I am a red man. If the Great Spirit had desired me to be a white man he would have made me so in the first place. He put in your heart certain wishes and plans, in my heart he put other and different desires. Each man is good in his sight. It is not necessary for Eagles to be Crows. We are poor... but we are free. No white man controls our footsteps. If we must die...we die defending our rights.

Danny wrote:
I am beginning to believe some may feel they were natives, at least treated that way.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweat_lodge
Etiquette;
The most important part of sweat lodge etiquette is respecting the traditions of the lodge leader. Some lodges take place in complete silence, while others involve singing, chanting, drumming, or other sound. It is important to know what is allowed and expected before entering a lodge. Traditional tribes hold a high value of respect to the lodge. In some cultures, objects, including clothing, without a ceremonial significance are discouraged from being brought into the lodge. Most traditional tribes place a high value on modesty as a respect to the lodge. In clothed lodges, women are usually expected to wear skirts or short-sleeved dresses of a longer length. In some traditions, nudity is forbidden, as are mixed sex sweats, whereas in others nudity is considered to have a greater connection with the spiritual aspect of your sweat. Some lodge leaders do not allow menstruating women. Perhaps the most important piece of etiquette is gratitude. It is important to be thankful to the purpose of the sweat, the people joining you in the lodge, and those helping to support the sweat lodge.

Quote from: "Whooter"

What you describe sounds very similar.
We use to vacation up in a remote part of Maine on the Canadian border and would construct what we called a Sweat Lodge. We covered it in old blankets after the fire was really hot and filled with stones. We were all teenagers mostly meeting others who were vacationing and also some locals and the rule was no clothes but the girls would wear towels or over-sized men shirts usually. We use to smoke and then solve all the worlds problems. When we got too hot we would jump in the lake and then go back in. We used to feel so good afterwards. We slept like babies and would talk about it the whole next day. Some of the kids from the city would freak out and go home. I think it was just too much of a culture shock, being around trees was enough stimulation for them. So I think how a person reacts depends on where they are coming from.

Looking back the magical effect was caused by heat, a lack of oxygen to the brain along with getting high.

We came up with some of the best ideas during those summers. I could see how people could try to develop that into a therapy of sorts.

You really think it's so similar? Here's one key difference:

"When we got too hot we would jump in the lake..."[/list]

I take it you didn't have some newage guru of "personal power" exhorting you to ignore your body's signals of distress and tough out the vomiting and passing out ... all in the name of being a good "spiritual warrior," eh?

Also, at least two of the comments above mentioned the plastic tarps covering the lodge structure. Doesn't sound like there was a whole lot of oxygen replenishment going on. Moreover, it looks like that lodge was barely high enough to stand up in, if that, and with ~60+ people inside...

Apparently, just hours before these deaths occurred, James Arthur Ray's Twitter account read:

"Still in Spiritual Warrior ... for anything new to live something first must die. What needs to die in you so that new life can emerge?"[/list]

http://www.barefootsworld.net/sweatlodge.html (http://www.barefootsworld.net/sweatlodge.html)

Quote

The Native American Sweatlodge
A Spiritual Tradition

A Crow sweat lodge.--Museum of the American Indian

The Sweat Lodge Ceremony, now central to most Native American cultures and spiritual life, is an adaptation of the sweat bath common to many ethnic cultures found in North and South America, Asia, Eastern and Western Europe, and Africa. It was prompted by the influence of European culture with its corrupting effect on native culture. With the introduction of alcohol and the inhumane treatment of native people, the need to re-purify themselves and find their way back to traditional ways of living became evident, as they were becoming increasingly poisoned by European culture. The Sweat Lodge Ceremony was the answer.

With the help of Medicine Men and Women, they could repair the damage done to their spirits, their minds and their bodies. The Sweat Lodge is a place of spiritual refuge and mental and physical healing, a place to get answers and guidance by asking spiritual entities, totem helpers, the Creator and Mother Earth for the needed wisdom and power.

A traditional Sweat Lodge is a wickiup made up of slender withes of aspen or willow, or other supple saplings, lashed together with raw hide, or grass or root cordage, although in some areas the lodge was constructed of whatever materials were at hand, from a mud roofed pit house to a cedar bark and plank lodge. The ends of the withes are set into the ground in a circle, approximately 10 feet in diameter, although there is no set size for a Sweat Lodge. That is determined by the location, materials available and the builder. The withes are bent over and lashed to form a low domed framework approximately 4 - 5 feet high at the center. The pit in the center is about 2 feet in diameter and a foot deep. The floor of the lodge may be clean swept dirt, or natural grassy turf, or may be covered with a mat of sweetgrass, soft cedar boughs, or sage leaves for comfort and cleanliness, kept away from the central pit.

The lodge in former times was covered with the hides of buffalo, bear or moose. In this day, the animal skins have been replaced with blankets, plastic sheeting, old carpet, heavy gauge canvas sheets and tarps to retain the heat and the steam.

In many traditions the entrance to the sweat lodge faces to the East and the sacred fire pit. This has very significant spiritual value. Each new day for all begins in the East with the rising of Father Sun, the source of life and power, dawn of wisdom, while the fire heating the rocks is the undying light of the world, eternity, and it is a new spiritual beginning day that we seek in the sweat ceremony.

Between the entrance to the lodge and the sacred fire pit, where the stones are heated, is an altar barrier, beyond which none may pass except the lodge or fire keepers, to prevent participants from accidently falling into the fire as they emerge from sweat. Traditionally this barrier altar is a buffalo or other skull atop a post, placed about 3 paces from the entrance and 3 paces from the fire, to warn of the danger. At the base of the post is a small raised earthen altar upon which are placed items sacred to the group or clan, sage, sweetgrass, feathers, etc., bordered with the four colors, and a pipe rack for the chanunpa.

Common to all traditions, and the sweat, is the ideal of spiritual cleanliness. Many sweats start with the participants fasting for an entire day of contemplation in preparation for the sweat while avoiding caffeine, alcohol and other unhealthy substances. Prior to entering the sweat the participants usually smudge with sage, sweetgrass or cedar smoke as a means toward ritual cleanliness.

Bringing personal sacred items is allowed but some rules apply. Items such as Eagle feathers, whistles and medicine pouches are allowed and welcomed. You should not bring anything that is not natural into the Sweat Lodge, such as: watches, ear rings, gold, silver, eye glasses, false teeth, etc. In many cultures a female on her moon is not allowed into the sweat, but in some they are.

A Sweat Ceremony in many traditions usually starts with the loading and offering of the sacred chanunpa ~ "peace pipe" ~ in prayer, that the participants may know and speak the truth in their supplications of Grandfather, Earth Mother and the spirits. In other traditions, when you are called upon to go into the sweat lodge you will have some tobacco to offer to the sacred fire, saying a prayer or asking a question, the smoke from the tobacco carrying your request to the Great Spirit. As you prepare to enter the lodge the sweat leader smudges you with the smoke of burning sage, cedar, or sweetgrass, wafting the smoke over you with an eagle feather. You then crawl into the lodge in a sun-wise (clockwise) direction, bowing in humility to Great Spirit and in close contact with Earth Mother, and take your place in the circle, sitting crosslegged upright against the wall of the lodge.

When all are inside the sweat leader calls upon the doorkeeper to drop the flap covering the lodge opening. The lodge becomes dark, and at this point the lodge leader announces that all are free to leave the lodge at any time if they cannot endure. (If you must leave, speak out "Mitakuye Oyasin," "All my relatives." The other participants will move away from the wall so that you may pass behind them as you leave in a clockwise direction.) He then asks for a short, contemplative silence. After the brief silence the flap is raised, and the leader calls upon the fire tender to bring in the heated stones from the sacred fire.

The Stone People spirits are awakened in the stones by heating them in the sacred fire until red-hot. They are swept clean with a pine or cedar bough to remove smoking embers which would cause irritating discomfort in the lodge. One at a time they are placed in the shallow pit inside the sweat lodge, placing first the stone on the west, then north, east, south, and in the center to Grandfather. Additional stones are then placed to Grandmother and The People. After four to seven stones are in the pit, depending on tradition (and probably the size of the stones), the entrance is closed and sealed by the Sweat Lodge Keeper, who generally is also the fire tender.

Aglow with the luminance of the red hot stones, the ceremony begins in the lodge. The sweat leader sounds the Water Drum and calls forth the spirit guides in prayer from the Four Directions. The sweat leader then dips water and pours it onto the hot stones in the pit, producing large amounts of steam, usually one dipper for each of the four directions, or until he is told by the spirits to stop. Then he begins his prayers, songs and chants.

A typical prayer might be:
Grandfather, Mysterious One,
We search for you along this
Great Red Road you have set us on.

Sky Father, Tunkashila,
We thank you for this world.
We thank you for our own existence.
We ask only for your blessing and for your instruction.

Grandfather, Sacred One,
Put our feet on the holy path that leads to you,
and give us the strength and the will
to lead ourselves and our children
past the darkness we have entered.
Teach us to heal ourselves,
to heal each other and to heal the world.

Let us begin this very day,
this very hour,
the Great Healing to come.
Let us walk the Red Road in Peace.

During the purification of one's spirit inside a sweat lodge, all sense of race, color and religion is set aside. As in the Mother's womb and the Father's eyes, we are all the same, we are One. Each of us has the ability to sit with the Creator himself. Healing begins here for dis-ease, physical, emotional, directional and spiritual.

As the steam and temperature rises so do our senses. Messages and vision from the Spirit World are received through the group consciousness of the participants. One at a time, as a talking stick is passed, all the people inside get an opportunity to speak, to pray and to ask for guidance and forgiveness from the Creator and the people they have hurt. As they go around the circle, they tell who they are, where they are from, and what is their clan, so the Creator, the Spirit People, and all there can acknowledge them.

A sweat is typically four sessions, called rounds or endurances, each lasting about 30 to 45 minutes. The round ends when the leader announces the opening of the door.

The first round is for recognition of the spirit world which resides in the black West where the sun goes down, and the Creator may be asked for a "spirit guide" by some of the participants.

The second round is for recognition of courage, endurance, strength, cleanliness, and honesty, calling upon the power of the white North.

The recognition of knowledge and individual prayer symbolize the third round, praying to the direction of the daybreak star and the rising sun that we may gain wisdom, that we may follow the Red Road of the East in all our endeavors.

The yellow South stands for growth and healing. Thus, the last round centers on spiritual growth and healing. From our spirit guides from the west, from the courage, honesty and endurance of the north, from the knowledge and wisdom obtained from the east, we continue the circle to the south from which comes growth. It is from growth and maturing that healing comes.

At the completion of each round, the participants may emerge, if desired, to plunge into an adjacent pool or stream if one is available, or roll in the snow if the sweat is held in winter. In arid areas the participants roll in the sand to cool off and remove the sweat. Many participants maintain their places in the lodge until completion of the fourth round, while the cooled stones in the pit are removed and replaced with hot stones.

There are many different forms of sweat ceremonies in Indian country. Each people has their own tradition and this is especially clear when it comes to the sweat lodge ceremony. Many differences, depending on the people participating, occur during each ritual. For instance, many times rounds are held in complete silence and meditation as the participants feel the need. At other less intense times, a round may be devoted to story telling and recounting of the clan's creation stories. This is all part of spiritual and emotional healing and growth. Respect, sincerity, humility, the ability to listen and slow down are all key in the way you approach ceremony.

Who Sweats and Why?

The sweat lodge ceremony usually occurs before and after other major rituals like the "Vision Quest" for example. The aim of the ceremony is to purify one's mind, body, spirit and heart. It is also a "stand alone" ritual that it occurs whenever it is needed. Sweat lodge essentially translates into returning to the womb and the innocence of childhood. The lodge is dark, moist, hot and safe. The darkness relates to human ignorance before the spiritual world and so much of the physical world.

Traditionally it was only the men who would sweat. As time has passed and the lodge has evolved, other levels have been shown. The sweat lodge has given many gifts and shown itself as a way to not only cleanse, but to release anger, guilt and shame in a safe way, and to bring people together as ONE. These days women sweat also, provided they are not on their moon time or cleansing time already. Men can sweat separately and women can sweat separately, or there can be mixed sweats where men and women both participate. The Elder or Lodge Keeper running the ceremony according to their teachings will determine this.

Observing very strict protocols while in ceremony are key. Men and women must both practice modesty in their dress when they come to ceremony. Sweat lodge is not a fashion show, nor is it a place for vanity or to get a date. This is a sacred place to pray, meditate, learn and heal, and that must be the focus.

Unlike "New Age" sweats we do not go in naked when men and women are present. It has nothing to do with being uncomfortable with our bodies, as some would have us believe. Rather it is about not confusing spirituality with sexuality, and creating a safe place where all people feel comfortable. Men, women, boys and girls can all benefit from the lodges. Modesty is to be practiced in our dress, meaning that men wear shorts and bring a couple of towels to cover themselves and the women wear modest dress or long skirt with a loose T-shirt and a couple of towels.

We must always walk the Red Road in a way that honors others' views and teachings without sacrificing our own. All of these ways are good, none is better or worse than the other.

We need to unite all of the races and both of the sexes if we are going to be strong and the Sacred Hoop is to be mended. Every form of spirituality goes through change. This evolution reflects the changing needs of the community and of our environment. Anything that will not change risks isolating itself from the people. Water is life and changes everything, even the hardest stone. The change that is needed is turning towards each other instead of away from one another. If we ceremony together, we heal together, we laugh together, live and love together.

If you are invited to a sweat, the 24 hours previous to the sweat should be spent in cleansing, fasting, prayer and meditation on the intended purpose of the sweat, and you should be free from drugs and alcohol. For the greatest spiritual benefit, these conditions should be met.

If you would like to know more of what happens in a sweat lodge ceremony the answer is quite simple:
Attend one. It will be different than the last one you attended.

And so it is . . .
Hokh! Mitakuye o’yasin. Hecetu welo !! . . . All my relatives, it is indeed so..!!

Quote

Perhaps the most important piece of etiquette is gratitude. It is important to be thankful to the purpose of the sweat, the people joining you in the lodge, and those helping to support the sweat lodge.

The going "gratitude" for James Arthur Ray's "Spiritual Warrior" retreat, which was supposed to "absolutely change your life," and of which this sweat experience was part of, was roughly $9000. I believe that sums up to a gross of well over half a million $$$.

Quote from: "try another castle"

Quote
Oprah

Speaking of someone who needs to be in a sweat lodge.... for about a decade.

Problem is shell come back out talking about how great it was and then her advice will, once again, get a bunch of people killed.

:cheers:

Quote from: "Ursus"

Quote
Perhaps the most important piece of etiquette is gratitude. It is important to be thankful to the purpose of the sweat, the people joining you in the lodge, and those helping to support the sweat lodge.
The going "gratitude" for James Arthur Ray's "Spiritual Warrior" retreat, which was supposed to "absolutely change your life," and of which this sweat experience was part of, was roughly $9000. I believe that sums up to a gross of well over half a million $$$.

Sitting Bull spoke:
I am a red man. If the Great Spirit had desired me to be a white man he would have made me so in the first place. He put in your heart certain wishes and plans, in my heart he put other and different desires. Each man is good in his sight. It is not necessary for Eagles to be Crows. We are poor... but we are free. No white man controls our footsteps. If we must die...we die defending our rights.

Danny spoke:
Maybe if the White Man/Woman stopped trying to capitalized on "Native Traditions" then we could truly find gratitude.

:jawdrop:

Quote from: "Ursus"

Quote
Perhaps the most important piece of etiquette is gratitude. It is important to be thankful to the purpose of the sweat, the people joining you in the lodge, and those helping to support the sweat lodge.
The going "gratitude" for James Arthur Ray's "Spiritual Warrior" retreat, which was supposed to "absolutely change your life," and of which this sweat experience was part of, was roughly $9000. I believe that sums up to a gross of well over half a million $$$.

You need to consider the guys expenses before judging him. Although they are paying $9,000 a piece, you need to consider that the program lasts for several days at a time and they have to feed and lodge these 70 or so people. So Mr. Ray is kept very busy unless he hires help, which doesn’t come cheap. Say 10 people, to help out, at $15/hour, 10 hours a day for 3 days. That’s $4,500 he needs to pay his employees in salary for the 3 days. Say $5 dollars per meal @ 3 meals per day.. that totals $3,100 (maybe $10/meal thats $6,200) for the 3 days. The sweat lodge must cost a few hundred dollars a month to maintain. He probably donates a few thousand to local charities every summer.. sponsors a kids baseball team, donations to the local police drive, picks up the tab for a big part of the local town mayors campaign expenses, which can be overwhelming for a small town mayor who has to work a second job to keep things going with 2 kids facing college.
So he grosses $630,000 for a 3 day weekend and pays out about $10,000 in expenses. He doesn’t have to work every weekend during the year to make a decent living.

You really cant get too pissed at Mr. Ray because if you really think about it after a few years it must get pretty tiresome sitting in a hot sweaty tent with 70 people (weekend after weekend) trying to find themselves when you have an air conditioned villa in the Bahamas waiting for you on Tuesday night. Who the hell would want to sit in a sweat lodge with these people once the checks cleared?

...

Quote from: "Whooter"

Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote
Perhaps the most important piece of etiquette is gratitude. It is important to be thankful to the purpose of the sweat, the people joining you in the lodge, and those helping to support the sweat lodge.
The going "gratitude" for James Arthur Ray's "Spiritual Warrior" retreat, which was supposed to "absolutely change your life," and of which this sweat experience was part of, was roughly $9000. I believe that sums up to a gross of well over half a million $$$.

Whooter wrote:
You need to consider the guys expenses before judging him. Although they are paying $9,000 a piece, you need to consider that the program lasts for several days at a time and they have to feed and lodge these 70 or so people. So Mr. Ray is kept very busy unless he hires help, which doesn’t come cheap. Say 10 people, to help out, at $15/hour, 10 hours a day for 3 days. That’s $4,500 he needs to pay his employees in salary for the 3 days. Say $5 dollars per meal @ 3 meals per day.. that totals $3,100 (maybe $10/meal thats $6,200) for the 3 days. The sweat lodge must cost a few hundred dollars a month to maintain. He probably donates a few thousand to local charities every summer.. sponsors a kids baseball team, donations to the local police drive, picks up the tab for a big part of the local town mayors campaign expenses, which can be overwhelming for a small town mayor who has to work a second job to keep things going with 2 kids facing college.
So he grosses $630,000 for a 3 day weekend and pays out about $10,000 in expenses. He doesn’t have to work every weekend during the year to make a decent living.

You really cant get too pissed at Mr. Ray because if you really think about it after a few years it must get pretty tiresome sitting in a hot sweaty tent with 70 people (weekend after weekend) trying to find themselves when you have an air conditioned villa in the Bahamas waiting for you on Tuesday night. Who the hell would want to sit in a sweat lodge with these people once the checks cleared?

Dag'gum Whootie, smacks of American capitalism.
Anthony Robbins made a fortune in Bali and no I never attended.
Teminos Inc. out of San Francisco runs a 4 day workshop at $2500.00 a head, 200 people attend, 3 staff/owners administer and the other 30 are non-tendered past attendees. The net $500,000.00. Four days worth of work, 3 staff/owners split after expenses $425,000.00, thats $141,666.66 each. "They Get Paid".
Cherly, Joy and Eric actually run one of the best experiential workshops I've ever attended, though I did not have to pay.
I don't think I would give any company that runs experiential workshops $2500.00 for a weekend. Just sounds crazy to me.

danny

Quote from: "Whooter"

Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote
Perhaps the most important piece of etiquette is gratitude. It is important to be thankful to the purpose of the sweat, the people joining you in the lodge, and those helping to support the sweat lodge.
The going "gratitude" for James Arthur Ray's "Spiritual Warrior" retreat, which was supposed to "absolutely change your life," and of which this sweat experience was part of, was roughly $9000. I believe that sums up to a gross of well over half a million $$$.
You need to consider the guys expenses before judging him. Although they are paying $9,000 a piece, you need to consider that the program lasts for several days at a time and they have to feed and lodge these 70 or so people. So Mr. Ray is kept very busy unless he hires help, which doesn’t come cheap. Say 10 people, to help out, at $15/hour, 10 hours a day for 3 days. That’s $4,500 he needs to pay his employees in salary for the 3 days. Say $5 dollars per meal @ 3 meals per day.. that totals $3,100 (maybe $10/meal thats $6,200) for the 3 days. The sweat lodge must cost a few hundred dollars a month to maintain. He probably donates a few thousand to local charities every summer.. sponsors a kids baseball team, donations to the local police drive, picks up the tab for a big part of the local town mayors campaign expenses, which can be overwhelming for a small town mayor who has to work a second job to keep things going with 2 kids facing college.
So he grosses $630,000 for a 3 day weekend and pays out about $10,000 in expenses. He doesn’t have to work every weekend during the year to make a decent living.

You really cant get too pissed at Mr. Ray because if you really think about it after a few years it must get pretty tiresome sitting in a hot sweaty tent with 70 people (weekend after weekend) trying to find themselves when you have an air conditioned villa in the Bahamas waiting for you on Tuesday night. Who the hell would want to sit in a sweat lodge with these people once the checks cleared?

Lol. Always a question of finances for you, eh?

And... just going with your train of thought for the moment, and using your figures... wow. Somewhat over $600,000 minus $10,000 is ... still somewhat over $600,000. Huge difference, that, don't ya think? :D

That's not even taking into consideration that participants were on a 36-hour fast prior to the sweat fest. I imagine the costs to feed the herd were significantly less during that time period.

But... I digress too much.

Has it ever occurred to you that the primary source of ire might... not be the money per se? That loss of life, and the callous disregard for that, cannot be measured in dollars and cents?

Quote

Ursus wrote:
And... just going with your train of thought for the moment, and using your figures... wow. Somewhat over $600,000 minus $10,000 is ... still somewhat over $600,000. Huge difference, that, don't ya think? :D

That's not even taking into consideration that participants were on a 36-hour fast prior to the sweat fest. I imagine the costs to feed the herd were significantly less during that time period.

But... I digress too much.

Has it ever occurred to you that the primary source of ire might... not be the money per se? That loss of life, and the callous disregard for that, cannot be measured in dollars and cents?

Oh, Ursus please....drama class is not until Tuesday. :seg2:

Quote from: "DannyB II"

Dag'gum Whootie, smacks of American capitalism.
Anthony Robbins made a fortune in Bali and no I never attended.
Teminos Inc. out of San Francisco runs a 4 day workshop at $2500.00 a head, 200 people attend, 3 staff/owners administer and the other 30 are non-tendered past attendees. The net $500,000.00. Four days worth of work, 3 staff/owners split after expenses $425,000.00, thats $141,666.66 each. "They Get Paid".
Cherly, Joy and Eric actually run one of the best experiential workshops I've ever attended, though I did not have to pay.
I don't think I would give any company that runs experiential workshops $2500.00 for a weekend. Just sounds crazy to me.

Interesting. You're really into this "group experience" motif for self-improvement, eh? How come you "did not have to pay?" Were you a friend of theirs? Or, did you facilitate a portion of the weekend?

Quote from: "DannyB II"

Quote from: "Ursus"
And... just going with your train of thought for the moment, and using your figures... wow. Somewhat over $600,000 minus $10,000 is ... still somewhat over $600,000. Huge difference, that, don't ya think? :D

That's not even taking into consideration that participants were on a 36-hour fast prior to the sweat fest. I imagine the costs to feed the herd were significantly less during that time period.

But... I digress too much.

Has it ever occurred to you that the primary source of ire might... not be the money per se? That loss of life, and the callous disregard for that, cannot be measured in dollars and cents?
Oh, Ursus please....drama class is not until Tuesday. :seg2:

Ya really think so, Danny? Did you actually read the article? Some people died. A lot more of them got sick, and could have died. And all this happened over the course of a couple of hours.

What kind of slavish group-think was going on there, that people felt compelled to push themselves to the brink, and in a few tragic cases - over the brink, of multiple organ failure? And just how much of a "spiritual leader" was James Arthur Ray ... to not even comprehend the gravity of the situation ... before it was too late?

I'm tired of being tormented to hell, that's what I'm tired of.

(http://http://www.documentingreality.com/forum/attachments/f181/26313d1226505567-jonestown-massacre-photos-18-november-1978-jonestown_4.jpg)

Quote from: "Ursus"

Quote from: "DannyB II"
Dag'gum Whootie, smacks of American capitalism.
Anthony Robbins made a fortune in Bali and no I never attended.
Teminos Inc. out of San Francisco runs a 4 day workshop at $2500.00 a head, 200 people attend, 3 staff/owners administer and the other 30 are non-tendered past attendees. The net $500,000.00. Four days worth of work, 3 staff/owners split after expenses $425,000.00, thats $141,666.66 each. "They Get Paid".
Cherly, Joy and Eric actually run one of the best experiential workshops I've ever attended, though I did not have to pay.
I don't think I would give any company that runs experiential workshops $2500.00 for a weekend. Just sounds crazy to me.

Interesting. You're really into this "group experience" motif for self-improvement, eh? How come you "did not have to pay?" Were you a friend of theirs? Or, did you facilitate a portion of the weekend?

This explains soooo much. :nods:

Quote from: "Anne Bonney"

Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "DannyB II"
Dag'gum Whootie, smacks of American capitalism.
Anthony Robbins made a fortune in Bali and no I never attended.
Teminos Inc. out of San Francisco runs a 4 day workshop at $2500.00 a head, 200 people attend, 3 staff/owners administer and the other 30 are non-tendered past attendees. The net $500,000.00. Four days worth of work, 3 staff/owners split after expenses $425,000.00, thats $141,666.66 each. "They Get Paid".
Cherly, Joy and Eric actually run one of the best experiential workshops I've ever attended, though I did not have to pay.
I don't think I would give any company that runs experiential workshops $2500.00 for a weekend. Just sounds crazy to me.

Interesting. You're really into this "group experience" motif for self-improvement, eh? How come you "did not have to pay?" Were you a friend of theirs? Or, did you facilitate a portion of the weekend?

This explains soooo much. :nods:

I know Anne it is horrible isn't it Hilter, Idi Amin, who became known as the 'Butcher of Uganda, Saddam Hussein ect.....play this right Ursus and yourself just may win the Fornits Award for "Best Dramatic Post".
I get what happened and it is sad, I also know that Roy was and is raking in the money along with thousands other in this country and millions world wide. Folks want experiences and they will pay handsomely.

Quote from: "DannyB II"

Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "DannyB II"
Dag'gum Whootie, smacks of American capitalism.
Anthony Robbins made a fortune in Bali and no I never attended.
Teminos Inc. out of San Francisco runs a 4 day workshop at $2500.00 a head, 200 people attend, 3 staff/owners administer and the other 30 are non-tendered past attendees. The net $500,000.00. Four days worth of work, 3 staff/owners split after expenses $425,000.00, thats $141,666.66 each. "They Get Paid".
Cherly, Joy and Eric actually run one of the best experiential workshops I've ever attended, though I did not have to pay.
I don't think I would give any company that runs experiential workshops $2500.00 for a weekend. Just sounds crazy to me.
Interesting. You're really into this "group experience" motif for self-improvement, eh? How come you "did not have to pay?" Were you a friend of theirs? Or, did you facilitate a portion of the weekend?
This explains soooo much. :nods:
I know Anne it is horrible isn't it Hilter, Idi Amin, who became known as the 'Butcher of Uganda, Saddam Hussein ect.....play this right Ursus and yourself just may win the Fornits Award for "Best Dramatic Post".
I get what happened and it is sad, I also know that Roy was and is raking in the money along with thousands other in this country and millions world wide. Folks want experiences and they will pay handsomely.

So... did you facilitate or work as a non-paid volunteer at "Teminos Inc. out of San Francisco?"

Btw, re. the LGAT facilitator whose handiwork started this thread: his name is James Arthur RAY. Wasn't sure whether that was a typo on your part, or whether you were referring to someone else... ?

Quote

Ursus wrote:
So.. did you facilitate or work as a non-paid volunteer at "Teminos Inc. out of San Francisco?"

Danny wrote:
Ursus you still have not answered my question, "did you attend the Warrior Weekend Retreat".

Quote

Ursus wrote:
Btw, re. the LGAT facilitator whose handiwork started this thread: his name is James Arthur RAY . Wasn't sure whether that was a typo on your part, or whether you were referring to someone else...?

Danny wrote:
That was a typo on my part, thanks for the correction.

Here's another article with the same title, also the same publication date, but with a different author.

My guess is that the initial report was primarily taken from Associated Press (it's quite similar to the previous article), but that the update contained enough original material for a local reporter to put his byline on it.

The initial report follows the update directly below:

-------------- • -------------- • --------------

The Daily Courier
10/9/2009 12:06:00 PM
2 die, 19 overcome at Sedona retreat sweat lodge (http://http://www.dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&subsectionID=1&articleID=73288)

(http://http://www.dcourier.com/SiteImages/Article/73288a.jpg)
Investigators look over a "sweat lodge" on the grounds of Angel Valley Retreat Center near Sedona Friday where two people died and an estimated 19 others were taken to hospitals after being overcome while sitting in the sauna-like sweat lodge during a Sedona spiritual retreat, authorities said Friday.
Tom Tingle/The Associated Press

BY JON HUTCHINSON
Special to the Courier, Verde Valley News

UPDATE, 5:44 p.m.

SEDONA - Two people have died and a total of 19 received treatment at one of three medical centers Thursday night when participants collapsed after a New Age-type sweat lodge experience near Sedona.

As many as 68 reportedly crowded into a tarpaulin-covered dome at the remote retreat in Deer Pass Valley about 6.5 miles south of West Sedona along Oak Creek. The domed structure is about 30 feet long and about shoulder high, estimated Merry Shanks of the Verde Valley Fire District, the agency that commanded the rescue.

Angel Valley Retreat operators say they rented out the lodge to another group for the Thursday event. In addition to the 48 participants, three staff members and three members of the "Dream Team" were in the sweat lodge, where operators pour water over hot rocks to create steam in the enclosures.

James Arthur Ray played host for the event for a "Spiritual Warrior" phase of his "Journey of Power Experience" series of lectures presented across the country. Participants told Sheriff's Office investigators they paid $9,695 for the experience. Ray was in the shelter at the time of the illnesses. Investigators interviewed him, and he since has left the retreat center.

Shanks retreat participants said the "experience" had eight "rounds" over a two-hour period.

The Verde Valley Fire District initially responded about 5:19 p.m. to a reported emergency medical incident, but it quickly escalated as sweat lodge participants reportedly "coded."

"While we were there more and more people were getting sick," said Shanks, spokeswoman for the Verde Valley Fire District.

Eventually, three medical helicopters carried four victims to Flagstaff Medical Center. Ground ambulances responded from Sedona Fire, Montezuma-Rimrock Fire, Verde Valley Ambulance and Camp Verde Fire.

Doctors pronounced two of those taken to Verde Valley Medical Center dead shortly after arrival. They were a middle-aged man and a woman. Authorities are withholding their names pending notification of relatives.

A preliminary assessment by the Camp Verde Haz-Mat Team showed no hazardous materials. Camp Verde Fire Spokeswoman Barbara Rice notes that authorities conducted tests nearly an hour after the first call and when the structure had been ventilated. Crews found carbon monoxide traces in the "voids" between the covering blankets, and a lack of oxygen.

Five patients taken to Sedona Medical Center were treated and released. A total of 12 went to Verde Valley Medical Center. Seven were treated and released Thursday. Three more were admitted, treated and released Friday. Of four patients flown to Flagstaff Medical Center, four remained in critical condition Friday and one is in fair condition.

Robert Resendes, director of the Yavapai County Health Department, says the department inspects the kitchen at the retreat in another building, but does not have any authority over the sweat lodge.

Yavapai Sheriff's Office detectives arrived Thursday night to begin the unexplained death investigation. They interviewed principals in the activities and were to obtain search warrants to determine if evidence exists in other buildings at the retreat.

The 70-acre retreat lies at the end of a rough Forest Service Road on the east side of Oak Creek.

The retreat area has been closed to the press and public pending the investigation.

------------------------------------------

INITIAL REPORT:

(AP) - Two people died and an estimated 19 others were taken to hospitals after being overcome while sitting in a sauna-like sweat lodge at a Sedona retreat, authorities said Friday.

About 50 people were in a crudely constructed "sweatbox" next to an open sitting area at the 70-acre Angel Valley resort Thursday evening, Yavapai County sheriff's spokesman Dwight D'Evelyn said. The facility nestled in the forest about 20 minutes from Sedona provides spiritual retreats.

Many people began feeling ill after about two hours in the sweat box, emerging lightheaded and weak, said Verde Valley Fire District Chief Jerry Doerksen.

About 21 people were taken by ambulance or helicopter to area hospitals, where two were pronounced dead, D'Evelyn said. The dead were identified only as a man and woman, both middle-aged.

Three people taken to Flagstaff Medical Center were listed in critical condition Friday, and another was in fair condition. Three others who were admitted to a hospital in nearby Verde Valley recovered quickly; two of them were released overnight and one was reported in good condition Friday.

Sheriff's homicide investigators were working to determine what happened and whether any criminal actions might have been a factor in the incident, D'Evelyn said. They were at the resort Friday interviewing the retreat director, staff and guests.

D'Evelyn said authorities were checking into whether any of the attendees had preexisting medical conditions and the possibility that some of the people might have been fasting.

"There are a lot of issues that may have led up to these injuries and deaths," he said.

"It's not something you'd normally see at one of the resorts there," he added, "and it's unfortunate regardless of the cause."

Doerksen, whose fire district responded to emergency calls, said he sent a hazardous materials team into the sweat lodge to test for carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide and other contaminants.

"The test they ran didn't show anything out of the ordinary," he said.

Sedona is a resort town about 115 miles north of Phoenix famous for its red rocks. It is well-known as a center for the modern spiritual movement.

A woman who answered the phone at the resort Friday said its founders, Michael and Amayra Hamilton, would have no comment. The resort's Web site credits various vortexes, a creek and the surrounding vegetation as a way to transform, heal and nourish visitors.

© Copyright 2010 Western News&Info, Inc.® The Daily Courier is the information source for Prescott area communities in Northern Arizona.

Quote from: "DannyB II"

I know Anne it is horrible isn't it Hilter, Idi Amin, who became known as the 'Butcher of Uganda, Saddam Hussein ect.

Ummm..........what?

Quote

....play this right Ursus and yourself just may win the Fornits Award for "Best Dramatic Post".

"yourself just may win"? Do you read what you write? Can you?

Quote

I get what happened and it is sad, I also know that Roy was and is raking in the money along with thousands other in this country and millions world wide. Folks want experiences and they will pay handsomely.

And your point is........? That this guy is making tons of cash scamming gullible people and occasionally kills a few?

How sad that someone has to go thru life constantly in search of a new guru to lead them. Sheeple.

:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: Danny the main drama momma of fornits history has the utter gall to even suggest others are drama winners..Now that is absurd. Then again I believe we all are aware of that. Daniel you obviously wore out your welcome go intrude another website. :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:

Comments (http://http://www.dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&subsectionID=1&articleID=73288) for the above article, "2 die, 19 overcome at Sedona retreat sweat lodge (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=28923&p=367577#p367577)" (#2), (by Jon Hutchinson; October 09, 2009; The Daily Courier and Verde Valley News, AP):

Article comment by: Carl · Posted: Friday, October 09, 2009

60 naked people in close quarters, violating God's #1 Commandment... Something bad has got to happen!Article comment by: RandR · Posted: Friday, October 09, 2009

Looking for a "spiritual experience" in the wrong place. Sad...Article comment by: Wow · Posted: Friday, October 09, 2009

$9700? anyone else that wants the experience can come over to my place and spend time in the "spiritual shed" for $15 a head (limit 42)Article comment by: One chance... · Posted: Friday, October 09, 2009

You trust your spirituality to new agers, and you give up your life to people who are convinced they are the be-all and end-all to enlightenment. Don't sell yourself short. This is your only chance to get it right. I hope someone got the drift and won't risk their life to a sweaty experience.Article comment by: mike · Posted: Friday, October 09, 2009

The plural of vortex is "vortices" I can't fault the editor, as the Sedonites got it wrong...Article comment by: trippetta · Posted: Friday, October 09, 2009

Hey I need money, even have some crystals form childhood trips to the desert with my family, plus some knowledge of Native American spirituality; I'll set up a medicine circle in my bathroom for anyone interested and only charge $1,000.00, only no nudity please.(Seriously though, my condolences to the family, it's a shame some people are duped by bogus shaman and would be mystics)Article comment by: Chris Bergman · Posted: Saturday, October 10, 2009

Okay, I give in. If this is how they're gonna spend it; go ahead, tax the rich! bergman_blogs@yahoo.com (http://mailto:bergman_blogs@yahoo.com)[/list]
Article comment by: mike · Posted: Saturday, October 10, 2009

hey Jimbo, I did the human math after reading your comment... you didn't add upArticle comment by: CO2? · Posted: Saturday, October 10, 2009

They had to have inhaled something that killed them. Just the heat/sweat wouldn't kill 2 healthy persons. Carbon monoxide could do it and could have been gone by the time it was tested for by the fuzz. I bet the autopsy will show CO2 in their blood, and it stays for a long time after death. Tragic accident but my bet is that the sweatbox was unsafe.Article comment by: No name provided · Posted: Saturday, October 10, 2009

Shows non-native people why our ceremonies are scared to us, Native American people. You have to have great respect for Mother Earth and the powers she has... I hope these people get better.Article comment by: Realized too late · Posted: Saturday, October 10, 2009

Seriously, these who attend every "spiritual" meeting that comes down the pike are searching for what will satisfy their desire to understand the "universe". They are experimenting to find the ultimate experience, the unforgettable, whatever is far above the "ordinary", quite comparable to those who searched for the perfect, mind-blowing high back in the 60's. It's an unsavory comparison, but still gives us something to think about. They all put their lives on the line, and sometimes lose it. How deceived they are to think they are outsmarting their Creator.Article comment by: dressed and sweaty · Posted: Saturday, October 10, 2009

Carl: 60 NAKED people?!!? Count me in! For prurient reasons I read the article over and over, looking for the reference to nakedity (yeah, made up that word) -- but, alas, could not find it. Commandment #2, Carl: "learn to read accurately". (Sweat lodges, like lawn darts, will no doubt now be outlawed "so this terrible tragedy can never happen again.") ------ I did one of those sweat lodge things one time. There were about 20 of us, none naked, just sweaty and stinky and listening to some blather about journeys and warriorism or some such; and the "lodge" was well sealed with a fire heating the rocks for steam, which felt, indeed, like inhaling fire. Certainly there was a dearth of oxygen and plenty of CO and CO2. Figured I was probably gonna die, was surely courting heart attack, and didn't care because I was so depressed from the bad relationship that made me want to be there in the first place. A couple of people bailed after the first couple of "rounds", but I stuck it out because I'm an idiot. I emerged from the experience still heartbroken and feeling not a bit like a warrior, but more like a schmo. And for only $20! It's good to try everything at least once in life -- or maybe not.Article comment by: honkybrujo · Posted: Saturday, October 10, 2009

You teabaggers have no compassion at all. I bet you would be upset at the loss of lives and injuries if at your next cross-burning it fell and hit some Klan members.Article comment by: lesee... 5 + 2 am 59?? · Posted: Saturday, October 10, 2009

Hutchinson's article says there were "as many as 68" people and then in the next paragraph says 54 (48+3+3), then the AP article says "about 50", then Carl says "60 naked", then Chris makes it into "87" but sticks with the "naked" thing that's NOT in either article. I know numbers and reading are just real tricky for some people, but C'MON!Article comment by: No name provided · Posted: Saturday, October 10, 2009

to No name provided, I dont understand your comment "You have to have great respect for Mother Earth and the powers she has..." have you seen the empty beer cans/bottles/tires/ect blatenly discarded on reservation? From what I have seent you make that statement hard to belive. Now maybe there are some tribes/reservations that are not like that, but I havent seen them yet.Article comment by: Name Optional · Posted: Saturday, October 10, 2009

To "dressed and sweaty": If there was a fire under the rocks in the sweat lodge you were at, then there was a fire INSIDE the sweat lodge - which is never done in a sweat lodge, there is never supposed to be a fire going on as it gives off smoke and light, two things that shouldn't be in a sweat, so if you really were in a sweat with a fire and not just making this up, then you were not in one that was done correctly. Sweats have been going on for centuries, all over the world in different cultures, not just Native American. It is not a "new age" phenomenon and it is usually a safe and healthy thing to take part in. Let's wait and see what the investigation shows us. There could have been toxins abound somewhere, or there was some other source of illness.Article comment by: No name provided · Posted: Saturday, October 10, 2009

Perhaps I'm being simplistic, but doesn't the human body expel C02 naturally, combine that times 60...Article comment by: Sad · Posted: Saturday, October 10, 2009

The native lodges i've been to 1. never charge money , donations were optional never stressed and used to purchase wood or gas for person running the lodge. 2. The person who ran the lodge was not given the right to do so until he or she followed many ceremonies/ protocols that gave them the right to run the lodge from their peers. This is not a weekend workshop kind of thing it is a committment and takes usually several years before one is allowed to run one. 3. They NEVER used plastic to cover the lodge . The lodge was supposed to breathe . Sometimes in winter months it was lowered a little to hold in heat when its 32 degrees or lower out and raised in the summer months .They never overfilled the lodge with people everyone had adequate space and they were told if it got to hot to get low to the ground where it is cooler , even poke a hand under the bottom to let some cool air in. People were told also if they felt they were having difficulty to speak up . 4. The rounds never lasted more then maybe 20- 35 minutes then the flap was opened so the cool air would come in,water was passed to drink or juice, once again the lodge covering was breathable material (blankets , canvas tarps without water proofing etc.)There were four rounds total each had a significance as to what that round was about. 5. The lodge leader was always aware of the other people participating in the ceremony. 6. Everything used in the lodges were explained when newcomers participated . Oh and no one was naked nor was one ever asked to remove clothing, they did have sort of a dress code when mixed (men and women ) were in the lodge. This also i was told traditional . I think the misuse of the lodge in this case is a tragedy and hope it does not cast a shadow over the ceremonies that have been done safely for eons. I have participated in these with Lakota, Dakota, Northern Cheyenne, Crow , Navajo,Apache, and Shoshone running the lodges and NEVER has there been a bad incidence . These traditonal ways are done so for a reason ! While every culture may have some kind of sweat or sauna ceremony I feel it is the native americans who have carried this ceremony most honestly and NOT the new agers or wanna be's . It is unfortunate that those in Sedona ran into a situation that from my perspective put them at risk .Article comment by: dressed and sweaty · Posted: Saturday, October 10, 2009

To "Name Optional": Nope, didn't make it up. Could have been mistaken about the fire going on while we were inside, and apologies if I misremembered. (Seems the smoke from a fire would surely have killed us all, as there certainly was no ventilation.) The rest of it -- steam-searing of the lungs and so on -- was quite real. The heat was incredible -- much more intense than any sauna or steam room I've ever experienced -- and we were packed in very tightly. Whole thing felt like a recipe for heart failure. Worst to endure though was the hokum-smokem dialogue and the "channeling" or whatever it was supposed to be. I've had more moving spiritual experiences from going 130mph on a motorcycle. Maybe if we'd had some peyote...Article comment by: Got off track and admitted it! · Posted: Saturday, October 10, 2009

OMG, 'no name provided' is using this sad event to exert his opinion on the state of Indian reservations and the litter. I knew these comments couldn't go on without someone bringing up the race card. What a sad person. I feel sorry for you 'no name provided'. Why do you live in Arizona with its large population of Indians and reservations? Oh look, I did exactly what 'no name provided' did. I got off track!! Condolences to the families of the two dead and hope for fast healing for the survivors.Article comment by: Lizzard · Posted: Saturday, October 10, 2009

This is so sad. People cut down in the prime of life. I did have an experience with a sweat lodge many years ago. I stayed in there as long as I could, even after I got so over-heated that I could hear my own heart beating. I never would have thought that my life was in danger. I think that it will turn out that those unfortunate individuals were exposed to unacceptable levels of carbon monoxide. I just pray that God is helping their families.Article comment by: joy · Posted: Sunday, October 11, 2009

I've been in two sweat lodges in my life. It's very spiritual and run by a Native Am. It is clear after four flaps that you are to leave, and if clostrophobic you sit near the chief, and lower to the crowd allow air from the TPee to the ground. I cannot fathom 50 nor paying, it's all donation, it's all very kind and spirtual. This is a sad time, and sadder knowing the person charged almost 2,000, for a spirtual journey. This is NOT typical of any sweat lodge.Article comment by: CanWeKa · Posted: Sunday, October 11, 2009

Hello - I am sending this comment in hope that it gets out into the wider public or the people in the area where this happened. First of all, I know that the families that this happened to are probably not from this surrounding area where this happened. But my condolences go out to them. I am from the Oceti Sakowin Omniciye People, My bloodline comes from the Tintunwan, I am WaJaJe Oglala, and originally from this land we call Turtle Island. When I hear about misuse of not only our traditional ceremonial ways but also our traditional structures, this concerns me! I am not here to elevate anyone or elevate labels or tags people put on themselves. What I mean by that is whenever you give undo publicity to something of this nature it elevates the negative not the positive. This American society we live in today has never wanted to recognize the Native Cultures out right. Yet they imposed the totalness of their culture on us even their citizenship. We have not been given the right to be our own souvenir nations in our own homelands. This is why these things occur because our teachers are being oppressed. We don't have any rights to govern our own ceremonies so anybody can use/run the lodge/ ceremonies any way they want. And because they don't realize what it takes to live in the native way of life they abuse not only our ceremonies but also our laws. And that is apparent by charging people in this time when this recession has taken everyone down. The $9,000.00 and something that was charged for each individual taking this work shop, Which adds up to around $600,000.00 total just for this one workshop. Most so called Native Tribes here in the United States don't even see half of that amount for their budget yearly. These ceremonies should be given back to the rightful people of this Turtle Island and not be used by anybody of European decent without the proper understanding of what these ceremonies consist of which could take generations. I run Stones Peoples Lodges i.e. (sweat lodges). I don't charge people and this has been a handed down way of life. It was passed down generation to generation, for over 17 generations. So this gives me the right to run these ceremonies. My name is CanWeKa, (WaJaJe Tintunwan) Thank youArticle comment by: Karen · Posted: Sunday, October 11, 2009

Sweat lodges are also common in indigenous european cultures. But I do think this is not the time or the place to bring up the whole indian-nonindian thing. can we come together in support of those families who have lost loved ones, and for those struggling with loss at this time?Article comment by: Barbara Cargal · Posted: Sunday, October 11, 2009

I have sponsored sweat lodges at my farm for many years and never did we require anyone to give money. No real sweat lodge would require money to be given. This amount of greed has resulted in the same amount of grief.Article comment by: No name provided · Posted: Tuesday, October 13, 2009

"Bogus" Shamen? "Would be" mystics... Hey! News flash people: 100 percent of people claiming ANY connection to a non-existent "spirit world" or "supernatural" anything are bogus! Also: Should we have compassion for the families of the deceased or injured? of course! But for the dummies who participated? Heck no! No more than we should have compassion for anybody who is hurt or killed willfully doing something demonstrably stupid. Sure: Cook yourself in a steamer... How very transcendent... Also worthless and in some cases, very harmful.

© Copyright 2010 Western News&Info, Inc.® The Daily Courier is the information source for Prescott area communities in Northern Arizona.

Quote from: "Anne Bonney"

Quote from: "DannyB II"

I know Anne it is horrible isn't it Hilter, Idi Amin, who became known as the 'Butcher of Uganda, Saddam Hussein ect.

Ummm..........what?

Quote
....play this right Ursus and yourself just may win the Fornits Award for "Best Dramatic Post".

"yourself just may win"? Do you read what you write? Can you?

Quote
I get what happened and it is sad, I also know that Roy was and is raking in the money along with thousands other in this country and millions world wide. Folks want experiences and they will pay handsomely.

And your point is........? That this guy is making tons of cash scamming gullible people and occasionally kills a few?

How sad that someone has to go thru life constantly in search of a new guru to lead them. Sheeple.

No my whole point to this stupid thread is I "don't give a shit" what grown ups want to do, it is there choice. If they want to give Anthony Robbins $25,000.00 for a 4 hour motivational rehearsal, just before a big sale pitch, so be it, who gives a shit.
Like I said, ya bad things happen to good people, welcome to Mother Earth.
Yes I do listen to Guru's......Chiefs/Spiritual Healers/Psychiatrists/Psychotherapist/Dahlia llama/My significant other/Rabbi's/Priests/Buddists/ Hindu Spiritual Leaders/ My older Siblings/My Father ect.....of many different ethic groups, I do seek guidance from all over the world, I do explore the outer limits of my mind and soul.
I would rather be a sheeple then someone who is so lost they contemplate suicide everyday, live a unfulfilled life, who is alone and full of fear.
No Anne I am definitely not a follower, just someone that is not to big, I can't ask for help when I am stuck in life.

Quote from: "DannyB II"

No my whole point to this stupid thread is I "don't give a shit" what grown ups want to do, it is there choice. If they want to give Anthony Robbins $25,000.00 for a 4 hour motivational rehearsal, just before a big sale pitch, so be it, who gives a shit.
Like I said, ya bad things happen to good people, welcome to Mother Earth.

To a certain degree, you have a point. James Arthur Ray's "Spiritual Warrior" experience is certainly an enterprise that involved adults, presumably fully informed, consenting ones...

People join cults and participate in LGATs all the time. Perhaps some folk might even say that most of these ventures are pretty benign and have little long-lasting effects on participants, save perhaps a dip in disposable income and a reduction in critical thinking ability for a period of time. Of course, should anything bad happen to someone during that time ... then they are not so "benign."

Like all organizations that recruit followers or public participation, cults and LGATs operate on the continuum of persuasion. On one end of it, ya have pursuits like advertising and marketing, on the other, physical restraint and brutality.

As it so happens, LGAT recruitment and indoctrination are very similar to what goes on in the TTI. There are common tricks of the trade, involving physiological and psychological stressors, which help put the participants or recipients in a more easily indoctrinated or "teachable" state. In fact, LGATs and programs in the TTI have some of the same influences in their evolution. Moreover, certain programs featured on fornits also specifically utilize LGATs, to a greater or lesser degree, as part of their indoctrination of TTI parents.

So... like it or not, LGATs are "of interest" to some of us who post here. :D

Quote from: "DannyB II"

Like I said, ya bad things happen to good people, welcome to Mother Earth.
Yes I do listen to Guru's......Chiefs/Spiritual Healers/Psychiatrists/Psychotherapist/
Dahlia llama/My significant other/Rabbi's/Priests/Buddists/ Hindu Spiritual Leaders/ My older Siblings/My Father ect.....of many different ethic groups, I do seek guidance from all over the world, I do explore the outer limits of my mind and soul.
I would rather be a sheeple then someone who is so lost they contemplate suicide everyday, live a unfulfilled life, who is alone and full of fear.

(http://http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/70/Dahlia_blanc_rose.jpg/120px-Dahlia_blanc_rose.jpg) + (http://http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/83/Lama_Portrait_06072007_01.jpg/120px-Lama_Portrait_06072007_01.jpg)

I'm happy to hear that you're grounding yourself, Danny, in the teachings of Mother Earth.

;)

Quote from: "DannyB II"

No my whole point to this stupid thread is I "don't give a shit" what grown ups want to do, it is there choice. If they want to give Anthony Robbins $25,000.00 for a 4 hour motivational rehearsal, just before a big sale pitch, so be it, who gives a shit.

Sure, they're (contraction of "they" & "are") free to throw their (possessive) money away in any form they desire. I'm free to point and laugh at them when they do.

Quote

Like I said, ya bad things happen to good people, welcome to Mother Earth.

Yes, they do but being gullible makes it all that much easier for them to be preyed upon.

Quote

Yes I do listen to Guru's......Chiefs/Spiritual Healers/Psychiatrists/Psychotherapist/Dahlia llama/My significant other/Rabbi's/Priests/Buddists/ Hindu Spiritual Leaders/ My older Siblings/My Father ect.....of many different ethic groups, I do seek guidance from all over the world, I do explore the outer limits of my mind and soul.

Good for you. I do as well. I just don't lose myself in the process by following them around like some slobbering puppy dog or becoming some cheerleader/recruiter for them.

Quote

I would rather be a sheeple then someone who is so lost they contemplate suicide everyday, live a unfulfilled life, who is alone and full of fear.

And it's either one or the other, right? No in between, right? More black/white thinking that, I believe, comes from exposure to programs. It's either right or wrong, their (possessive) way or the wrong way...no grey area, no in between.

Quote

No Anne I am definitely not a follower,

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Quote

just someone that is not to big, I can't ask for help when I am stuck in life.

Me neither, I just seek my help from reputable sources and I don't "turn my will over" to anyone.

Quote from: "Anne Bonney"

Quote from: "DannyB II"

No my whole point to this stupid thread is I "don't give a shit" what grown ups want to do, it is there choice. If they want to give Anthony Robbins $25,000.00 for a 4 hour motivational rehearsal, just before a big sale pitch, so be it, who gives a shit.

Sure, they're free to throw their money away in any form they desire. I'm free to point and laugh at them when they do.

Quote
Like I said, ya bad things happen to good people, welcome to Mother Earth.

Yes, they do but being gullible makes it all that much easier for them to be preyed upon.

Quote
Yes I do listen to Guru's......Chiefs/Spiritual Healers/Psychiatrists/Psychotherapist/Dahlia llama/My significant other/Rabbi's/Priests/Buddists/ Hindu Spiritual Leaders/ My older Siblings/My Father ect.....of many different ethic groups, I do seek guidance from all over the world, I do explore the outer limits of my mind and soul.

Good for you. I do as well. I just don't lose myself in the process by following them around like some slobbering puppy dog or becoming some cheerleader/recruiter for them.

Quote
I would rather be a sheeple then someone who is so lost they contemplate suicide everyday, live a unfulfilled life, who is alone and full of fear.

And it's either one or the other, right? No in between, right? More black/white thinking that, I believe, comes from exposure to programs. It's either right or wrong, their (possessive) way or the wrong way...no grey area, no in between.

Quote
No Anne I am definitely not a follower,

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Quote
just someone that is not to big, I can't ask for help when I am stuck in life.

Me neither, I just seek my help from reputable sources and I don't "turn my will over" to anyone.

Quote
Anne,
Can we have a mature debate here without insulting one another, for having opposing views.
Well I am willing to try, so here goes.
Anne if you only knew who I am, believe me you would never confuse me with someone who follows or has black and white thinking.
In business I do have a tendency of seeing thing as black or red, there is no other way and the purple area can get you in a lot of trouble. So I guess this leaks out of my personality at times.
Personally with my family, friends and self I have a laid back approach for the most part.
I am on the periphery of the programs, workshops and others interests I have in regards to helping folks. I do not push, endorse or recruit anyone to do anything. I help where I can.
I allow most folks to have whatever experience they have had in their respective programs, I know over time the experience will have more clarity for them, as it has for me. This doesn't always mean that folks will condemn their treatment centers even after 30 years. I don't believe they are suffering from "Stockholm Syndrome" or anything else, they just were not scarred as others. Ya know, I really don't know why so many folks I know from Elan are not angry, scarred, pissed off or whatever but there not and they are not suffering either.
This also includes Daytop, Marathon House, Phoenix House, Straight, Synanon (yes I know folks from Synanon, actually introduced by my brother.) The Third Nail and various other programs. There are literally thousands upon thousands that are not walking around wounded and helpless.
Anne I think I know one thing, yourself and I had many of the same experiences with our Treatment Centers, I know this from talking extensively with folks from Georgia Straight and from making friends with Straights from Florida. So all this bickering I do with you is nothing more then bullshit because I agree with most of your experiences and opinions concerning programs of our past. I actually get where you are coming from, I just don't always agree with your opinions.
Last thing, "I don't turn my will over to anyone either". That's why I have a God. I was introduced to that spiritual lesson from, Old Pastor Herman Hanson, Pastor of the Carolina Free Baptist Church, Carolina R.I. A village of Charlestown R.I. Now, I am not a Baptist and never was (more Catholic growing up) but I do believe there is a God. A Just God who is looking over all of us, wondering when the hell were going to wake up and realize no version of God is better then the next.

[/color]

Quote from: "DannyB II's program propaganda team"

Anne,
Can we have a mature debate here without insulting one another, for having opposing views.
Well I am willing to try, so here goes.
Anne if you only knew who I am, believe me you would never confuse me with someone who follows or has black and white thinking.
In business I do have a tendency of seeing thing as black or red, there is no other way and the purple area can get you in a lot of trouble. So I guess this leaks out of my personality at times.
Personally with my family, friends and self I have a laid back approach for the most part.
I am on the periphery of the programs, workshops and others interests I have in regards to helping folks. I do not push, endorse or recruit anyone to do anything. I help where I can.
I allow most folks to have whatever experience they have had in their respective programs, I know over time the experience will have more clarity for them, as it has for me. This doesn't always mean that folks will condemn their treatment centers even after 30 years. I don't believe they are suffering from "Stockholm Syndrome" or anything else, they just were not scarred as others. Ya know, I really don't know why so many folks I know from Elan are not angry, scarred, pissed off or whatever but there not and they are not suffering either.
This also includes Daytop, Marathon House, Phoenix House, Straight, Synanon (yes I know folks from Synanon, actually introduced by my brother.) The Third Nail and various other programs. There are literally thousands upon thousands that are not walking around wounded and helpless.
Anne I think I know one thing, yourself and I had many of the same experiences with our Treatment Centers, I know this from talking extensively with folks from Georgia Straight and from making friends with Straights from Florida. So all this bickering I do with you is nothing more then bullshit because I agree with most of your experiences and opinions concerning programs of our past. I actually get where you are coming from, I just don't always agree with your opinions.
Last thing, "I don't turn my will over to anyone either". That's why I have a God. I was introduced to that spiritual lesson from, Old Pastor Herman Hanson, Pastor of the Carolina Free Baptist Church, Carolina R.I. A village of Charlestown R.I. Now, I am not a Baptist and never was (more Catholic growing up) but I do believe there is a God. A Just God who is looking over all of us, wondering when the hell were going to wake up and realize no version of God is better then the next.

Lol, like anyone who's read more than a few of your posts actually believes that is the real Danny speaking there! :rofl:

"I allow most folks to have whatever experience they have had in their respective programs..."[/list]
Ya really think so? That you're in a position to "allow" someone to have their own experience?

Quote from: "Ursus"

Quote from: "DannyB II's program propaganda team"
Anne,
Can we have a mature debate here without insulting one another, for having opposing views.
Well I am willing to try, so here goes.
Anne if you only knew who I am, believe me you would never confuse me with someone who follows or has black and white thinking.
In business I do have a tendency of seeing thing as black or red, there is no other way and the purple area can get you in a lot of trouble. So I guess this leaks out of my personality at times.
Personally with my family, friends and self I have a laid back approach for the most part.
I am on the periphery of the programs, workshops and others interests I have in regards to helping folks. I do not push, endorse or recruit anyone to do anything. I help where I can.
I allow most folks to have whatever experience they have had in their respective programs, I know over time the experience will have more clarity for them, as it has for me. This doesn't always mean that folks will condemn their treatment centers even after 30 years. I don't believe they are suffering from "Stockholm Syndrome" or anything else, they just were not scarred as others. Ya know, I really don't know why so many folks I know from Elan are not angry, scarred, pissed off or whatever but there not and they are not suffering either.
This also includes Daytop, Marathon House, Phoenix House, Straight, Synanon (yes I know folks from Synanon, actually introduced by my brother.) The Third Nail and various other programs. There are literally thousands upon thousands that are not walking around wounded and helpless.
Anne I think I know one thing, yourself and I had many of the same experiences with our Treatment Centers, I know this from talking extensively with folks from Georgia Straight and from making friends with Straights from Florida. So all this bickering I do with you is nothing more then bullshit because I agree with most of your experiences and opinions concerning programs of our past. I actually get where you are coming from, I just don't always agree with your opinions.
Last thing, "I don't turn my will over to anyone either". That's why I have a God. I was introduced to that spiritual lesson from, Old Pastor Herman Hanson, Pastor of the Carolina Free Baptist Church, Carolina R.I. A village of Charlestown R.I. Now, I am not a Baptist and never was (more Catholic growing up) but I do believe there is a God. A Just God who is looking over all of us, wondering when the hell were going to wake up and realize no version of God is better then the next.
Lol, like anyone who's read more than a few of your posts actually believes that is the real Danny speaking there! :rofl:

"I allow most folks to have whatever experience they have had in their respective programs..."[/list]
Ya really think so? That you're in a position to "allow" someone to have their own experience?

Ursus please don't hurt yourself making your point. Yes the above post was all me.
Somehow I knew that you would not be able to comprehend those few words. Let me see if I can help the "uber wordsmith".
Allow, in the context of my meaning is, to let someone voluntarily have a experience without any control on my part.
Jeesh I almost forgot, nite nite...
Oh Ursus make sure you email Anne, to discredit my post. I know you just could not let that post slide by. MY!! MY!!

see ya tomorrow, Danny...

Paul

Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010

Quote from: "DannyB II"

Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "DannyB II's program propaganda team"
Anne,
Can we have a mature debate here without insulting one another, for having opposing views.
Well I am willing to try, so here goes.
Anne if you only knew who I am, believe me you would never confuse me with someone who follows or has black and white thinking.
In business I do have a tendency of seeing thing as black or red, there is no other way and the purple area can get you in a lot of trouble. So I guess this leaks out of my personality at times.
Personally with my family, friends and self I have a laid back approach for the most part.
I am on the periphery of the programs, workshops and others interests I have in regards to helping folks. I do not push, endorse or recruit anyone to do anything. I help where I can.
I allow most folks to have whatever experience they have had in their respective programs, I know over time the experience will have more clarity for them, as it has for me. This doesn't always mean that folks will condemn their treatment centers even after 30 years. I don't believe they are suffering from "Stockholm Syndrome" or anything else, they just were not scarred as others. Ya know, I really don't know why so many folks I know from Elan are not angry, scarred, pissed off or whatever but there not and they are not suffering either.
This also includes Daytop, Marathon House, Phoenix House, Straight, Synanon (yes I know folks from Synanon, actually introduced by my brother.) The Third Nail and various other programs. There are literally thousands upon thousands that are not walking around wounded and helpless.
Anne I think I know one thing, yourself and I had many of the same experiences with our Treatment Centers, I know this from talking extensively with folks from Georgia Straight and from making friends with Straights from Florida. So all this bickering I do with you is nothing more then bullshit because I agree with most of your experiences and opinions concerning programs of our past. I actually get where you are coming from, I just don't always agree with your opinions.
Last thing, "I don't turn my will over to anyone either". That's why I have a God. I was introduced to that spiritual lesson from, Old Pastor Herman Hanson, Pastor of the Carolina Free Baptist Church, Carolina R.I. A village of Charlestown R.I. Now, I am not a Baptist and never was (more Catholic growing up) but I do believe there is a God. A Just God who is looking over all of us, wondering when the hell were going to wake up and realize no version of God is better then the next.
Lol, like anyone who's read more than a few of your posts actually believes that is the real Danny speaking there! :rofl:

"I allow most folks to have whatever experience they have had in their respective programs..."[/list]
Ya really think so? That you're in a position to "allow" someone to have their own experience?
Ursus please don't hurt yourself making your point. Yes the above post was all me.
Somehow I knew that you would not be able to comprehend those few words. Let me see if I can help the "uber wordsmith".
Allow, in the context of my meaning is, to let someone voluntarily have a experience without any control on my part.
Jeesh I almost forgot, nite nite...
Oh Ursus make sure you email Anne, to discredit my post. I know you just could not let that post slide by. MY!! MY!!

The point I was making DannyBoy, had to do with concepts and context, not words. Perhaps tomorrow morning, when you've had a good night's sleep, ya might give it another try for the good ol' mothership, eh? :D

Quote from: "DannyB II"

Oh Ursus make sure you email Anne, to discredit my post. I know you just could not let that post slide by. MY!! MY!!

He doesn't need to. You discredit yourself well enough.

Some more details of the previous days' events are noted in this next Daily Courier article:

-------------- • -------------- • --------------

The Daily Courier
10/10/2009 1:25:00 PM
No charges yet in sweat lodge deaths (http://http://www.dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&SubSectionID=1&ArticleID=73316)

(http://http://www.dcourier.com/SiteImages/Article/73316a.jpg)
Lt. David Rhodes of the criminal investigation bureau of the Yavapai County Sheriff's Office speaks to the media during a press conference Saturday at the Yavapai County Board of Supervisors Room in Prescott. Yavapai County Sheriff Steve Waugh, at left, also provided information.
Lisa Irish/The Daily Courier

(http://http://www.dcourier.com/SiteImages/Article/73316b.jpg)
Investigators look over a "sweat lodge" on the grounds of Angel Valley Retreat Center, near Sedona. Two people died and an estimated 19 others were taken to hospitals after being overcome while sitting in the sauna-like sweat lodge during a Sedona spiritual retreat.
Tom Tingle/The Arizona Republic, AP

By Lisa Irish · The Daily Courier

Yavapai County Sheriff Steve Waugh identified two people who died after participating in a sweat lodge ceremony that was the culmination of a "Spiritual Warrior" conference run by James Arthur Ray at the Angel Valley Retreat Center on Sedona Thursday.

James Shore, 40, of Milwaukee, Wis., and Kirby Brown, 38, of Westtown, N.Y., died at Verde Valley Medical Center at 6:36 p.m. Thursday, Waugh said at a Saturday press conference at the Yavapai County Board of Supervisors Room in Prescott.

More than 20 participants were transported by ambulance, air and private vehicles for care at the Verde Valley Medical Center, Flagstaff Medical Center and the Sedona Medical Center. Three patients remain in fair condition and one is in critical condition at the Flagstaff Medical Center, said Starla Addair-Collins, public relations specialist at Flagstaff Medical Center.

"Right now there are no criminal charges pending, and we do not know at this point if there ever will be," Lt. David Rhodes of the YCSO criminal investigation bureau said at the press conference. "We haven't encountered anything like this before."

Waugh also said Ray, who led the sweat lodge ceremony, refused to talk to investigators on site and returned to California.

"We will at some point in time schedule another interview with him," Waugh said.

"I do not know why he chose not to speak with us," Rhodes added. "Everyone else we have spoken with has been very forthcoming with information."

The sweat lodge ceremony Thursday afternoon was the culmination of a four-day retreat in the Sedona area, Waugh said. Ray had hosted events at the resort, including sweat lodges, before, and investigators are following up to see if any similar incidents had happened at previous events. Rhodes said the owners of the resort, the participants and Ray's staff on site are all part of the investigation.

"We are investigating it, at this point in time, as a death investigation," Waugh said. "If there are items that we are looking at that will turn this into a criminal investigation, I will not share it at this time."

A 911 call at 5 p.m. Thursday reported two people at the sweat dome had no pulse. When YCSO officers responded at 5:42 p.m., they found people in medical distress, complaining of illness, and two who were unresponsive and in critical condition.

Investigators interviewed 65 people of the 71 on site from the time they arrived until 3 a.m. Friday. Seven people were paid staff, including Ray, seven were volunteers, and 50 people were paying participants, Waugh said.

"We continue monitoring the condition of participants," Waugh said.

"We believe 50 to 60 people were in the lodge at the time that these deaths occurred," Waugh said.

Spiritual Warrior program participants attended lectures from Sunday to Tuesday, Waugh said. At 10 p.m. Tuesday, participants began a vision quest in surrounding canyons. The vision quest was a 36-hour period of fasting and spiritual exercises, Waugh said. Thursday morning, vision quest ended at daybreak and participants ate a buffet breakfast of eggs, fruit and cereal. Waugh said. Participants were also encouraged to drink water, he said. From midmorning until 3 p.m., participants attended lectures and seminars.

At 3 p.m., participants began the sweat lodge ceremony, with each sweat lodge session lasting from 15 to 30 minutes. Some participants said the original plan was for eight sweat lodge experiences, Waugh said.

In one round, Ray led the participants in various spiritual exercises, Waugh said. Many of the participants were from out of state, and one is from Canada, Rhodes said.

According to investigators, the first round began when 12 cantaloupe-sized rocks were brought into the lodge, water was put on the rocks to create steam and sandalwood was thrown on the rocks to give the effect of incense. At the end of each round, the door flap was raised and new rocks were brought in. Investigators found 58 rocks in the pit when they arrived at the lodge.

After the fourth round, two participants were dragged to the door by people in the lodge, Waugh said.

Ray's staff built the lodge, a temporary structure, with a frame of juniper and oak and covered it with many layers of blankets, comforters and tarps. The lodge is 415 square feet, just 53 inches high in the center, and 30 inches high on the edges. Fifty to 60 people were in the lodge during the ceremony, Waugh said.

"So literally no one could stand up in the lodge," Waugh said.

"We're estimating 50 to 65 people in an area 415 square feet - that is very tight quarters," Rhodes said. "The only ventilation was the door, the one entrance, when it was open."

Autopsies were conducted by the medical examiner of Yavapai County on Friday and results and toxicology are pending. Waugh said determining the actual cause of death may take up to 10 days.

Samples were taken from the fabric covering the roof, firewood, and other items inside and around the lodge to aid in the investigation.

Shore is survived by his wife and three children, a brother in Chicago, and other family members. Brown is survived by her parents, Waugh said.

© Copyright 2010 Western News&Info, Inc.® The Daily Courier is the information source for Prescott area communities in Northern Arizona.

Quote from: "Ursus"

Some more details of the previous days' events are noted in this next Daily Courier article:

-------------- • -------------- • --------------

The Daily Courier
10/10/2009 1:25:00 PM
No charges yet in sweat lodge deaths and "Right now there are no criminal charges pending, and we do not know at this point if there ever will be," Lt. David Rhodes of the YCSO criminal investigation bureau said at the press conference. "We haven't encountered anything like this before."

Danny wrote
Made some necessary corrections to the headline of this post, so we would have a more balanced headline.

(http://http://www.dcourier.com/SiteImages/Article/73316a.jpg)
Lt. David Rhodes of the criminal investigation bureau of the Yavapai County Sheriff's Office speaks to the media during a press conference Saturday at the Yavapai County Board of Supervisors Room in Prescott. Yavapai County Sheriff Steve Waugh, at left, also provided information.
Lisa Irish/The Daily Courier

(http://http://www.dcourier.com/SiteImages/Article/73316b.jpg)
Investigators look over a "sweat lodge" on the grounds of Angel Valley Retreat Center, near Sedona. Two people died and an estimated 19 others were taken to hospitals after being overcome while sitting in the sauna-like sweat lodge during a Sedona spiritual retreat.
Tom Tingle/The Arizona Republic, AP

By Lisa Irish · The Daily Courier

Yavapai County Sheriff Steve Waugh identified two people who died after participating in a sweat lodge ceremony that was the culmination of a "Spiritual Warrior" conference run by James Arthur Ray at the Angel Valley Retreat Center on Sedona Thursday.

James Shore, 40, of Milwaukee, Wis., and Kirby Brown, 38, of Westtown, N.Y., died at Verde Valley Medical Center at 6:36 p.m. Thursday, Waugh said at a Saturday press conference at the Yavapai County Board of Supervisors Room in Prescott.

More than 20 participants were transported by ambulance, air and private vehicles for care at the Verde Valley Medical Center, Flagstaff Medical Center and the Sedona Medical Center. Three patients remain in fair condition and one is in critical condition at the Flagstaff Medical Center, said Starla Addair-Collins, public relations specialist at Flagstaff Medical Center.

"Right now there are no criminal charges pending, and we do not know at this point if there ever will be," Lt. David Rhodes of the YCSO criminal investigation bureau said at the press conference. "We haven't encountered anything like this before."

Waugh also said Ray, who led the sweat lodge ceremony, refused to talk to investigators on site and returned to California.

"We will at some point in time schedule another interview with him," Waugh said.

"I do not know why he chose not to speak with us," Rhodes added. "Everyone else we have spoken with has been very forthcoming with information."

The sweat lodge ceremony Thursday afternoon was the culmination of a four-day retreat in the Sedona area, Waugh said. Ray had hosted events at the resort, including sweat lodges, before, and investigators are following up to see if any similar incidents had happened at previous events. Rhodes said the owners of the resort, the participants and Ray's staff on site are all part of the investigation.

"We are investigating it, at this point in time, as a death investigation," Waugh said. "If there are items that we are looking at that will turn this into a criminal investigation, I will not share it at this time."

A 911 call at 5 p.m. Thursday reported two people at the sweat dome had no pulse. When YCSO officers responded at 5:42 p.m., they found people in medical distress, complaining of illness, and two who were unresponsive and in critical condition.

Investigators interviewed 65 people of the 71 on site from the time they arrived until 3 a.m. Friday. Seven people were paid staff, including Ray, seven were volunteers, and 50 people were paying participants, Waugh said.

"We continue monitoring the condition of participants," Waugh said.

"We believe 50 to 60 people were in the lodge at the time that these deaths occurred," Waugh said.

Spiritual Warrior program participants attended lectures from Sunday to Tuesday, Waugh said. At 10 p.m. Tuesday, participants began a vision quest in surrounding canyons. The vision quest was a 36-hour period of fasting and spiritual exercises, Waugh said. Thursday morning, vision quest ended at daybreak and participants ate a buffet breakfast of eggs, fruit and cereal. Waugh said. Participants were also encouraged to drink water, he said. From midmorning until 3 p.m., participants attended lectures and seminars.

At 3 p.m., participants began the sweat lodge ceremony, with each sweat lodge session lasting from 15 to 30 minutes. Some participants said the original plan was for eight sweat lodge experiences, Waugh said.

In one round, Ray led the participants in various spiritual exercises, Waugh said. Many of the participants were from out of state, and one is from Canada, Rhodes said.

According to investigators, the first round began when 12 cantaloupe-sized rocks were brought into the lodge, water was put on the rocks to create steam and sandalwood was thrown on the rocks to give the effect of incense. At the end of each round, the door flap was raised and new rocks were brought in. Investigators found 58 rocks in the pit when they arrived at the lodge.

After the fourth round, two participants were dragged to the door by people in the lodge, Waugh said.

Ray's staff built the lodge, a temporary structure, with a frame of juniper and oak and covered it with many layers of blankets, comforters and tarps. The lodge is 415 square feet, just 53 inches high in the center, and 30 inches high on the edges. Fifty to 60 people were in the lodge during the ceremony, Waugh said.

"So literally no one could stand up in the lodge," Waugh said.

"We're estimating 50 to 65 people in an area 415 square feet - that is very tight quarters," Rhodes said. "The only ventilation was the door, the one entrance, when it was open."

Autopsies were conducted by the medical examiner of Yavapai County on Friday and results and toxicology are pending. Waugh said determining the actual cause of death may take up to 10 days.

Samples were taken from the fabric covering the roof, firewood, and other items inside and around the lodge to aid in the investigation.

Shore is survived by his wife and three children, a brother in Chicago, and other family members. Brown is survived by her parents, Waugh said.

© Copyright 2010 Western News&Info, Inc.® The Daily Courier is the information source for Prescott area communities in Northern Arizona. (http://http)

Quote from: "DannyB II"

Quote
The Daily Courier
10/10/2009 1:25:00 PM
No charges yet in sweat lodge deaths and "Right now there are no criminal charges pending, and we do not know at this point if there ever will be," Lt. David Rhodes of the YCSO criminal investigation bureau said at the press conference. "We haven't encountered anything like this before." (http://http://www.dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&SubSectionID=1&ArticleID=73316)
Danny wrote
Made some necessary corrections to the headline of this post, so we would have a more balanced headline.

Ya really think so?

I couldn't even see that he changed anything. Then again, I have difficulty reading his posts. Especially when he quotes (or attempts to quote) somebody else.

Quote from: "Anne Bonney"

I couldn't even see that he changed anything. Then again, I have difficulty reading his posts. Especially when he quotes (or attempts to quote) somebody else.

He took a couple of sentences from the text that there were no criminal charges pending, and that they didn't know if there ever would be any, and inserted that into the article's headline. Does Danny believe that James Ray shouldn't be held the least bit responsible in any way, shape, or form?

James Ray, fwiw, wasn't around anyway. He hightailed it back to California:

Waugh also said Ray, who led the sweat lodge ceremony, refused to talk to investigators on site and returned to California.

"We will at some point in time schedule another interview with him," Waugh said.

"I do not know why he chose not to speak with us," Rhodes added. "Everyone else we have spoken with has been very forthcoming with information."[/list]

Comments (http://http://www.dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&SubSectionID=1&ArticleID=73316) left for the above article, "No charges yet in sweat lodge deaths (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=28923&p=368052#p367851)" (by Lisa Irish, 10/10/2009, The Daily Courier):

Article comment by: Lorena Bathey · Posted: Saturday, October 10, 2009

(Site administrator's note: A portion of this comment was removed because it violated our Terms of Use Agreement, specifically paragraph one (1) of the Use of Service section: "You may not post, upload, or transmit any material or links to material that is libelous, defamatory, false, misleading, obscene, indecent, lewd, pornographic, violent, abusive, threatening, harassing, discriminatory, racist, vulgar, invasive of another's privacy, illegal, constitutes hate speech, or harms minors in any way.)[/list]
Article comment by: Chuck Cooper · Posted: Saturday, October 10, 2009

Thanks for the heads-up. Here's the latest. The fatalities are not Ed and Elena. But I do not know whether they were at that location or whether they were among the injured.Article comment by: Cuauhtemoc · Posted: Saturday, October 10, 2009

(Site administrator's note: A portion of this comment was removed because it violated our Terms of Use Agreement, specifically paragraph one (1) of the Use of Service section: "You may not post, upload, or transmit any material or links to material that is libelous, defamatory, false, misleading, obscene, indecent, lewd, pornographic, violent, abusive, threatening, harassing, discriminatory, racist, vulgar, invasive of another's privacy, illegal, constitutes hate speech, or harms minors in any way.)[/list]
Article comment by: So Sad · Posted: Saturday, October 10, 2009

James Ray ran to California to get his attorney. Why did he not stay and do some comforting to the people? Something is not right. I really feel sorry for the people that passed and the ones that are still ill. The American Indians are the only ones that know the proper way of the sweat lodge and they don't charge $10K. I hope everyone of these people get their money back.Article comment by: The herd instinct · Posted: Saturday, October 10, 2009

Probably not a criminal matter, said Lt. Rhodes ... so one must assume that you cannot criminalize utter stupidity in human beings.Article comment by: Ivan · Posted: Saturday, October 10, 2009

(Site administrator's note: A portion of this comment was removed because it violated our Terms of Use Agreement, specifically paragraph one (1) of the Use of Service section: "You may not post, upload, or transmit any material or links to material that is libelous, defamatory, false, misleading, obscene, indecent, lewd, pornographic, violent, abusive, threatening, harassing, discriminatory, racist, vulgar, invasive of another's privacy, illegal, constitutes hate speech, or harms minors in any way.)[/list]
Article comment by: sad · Posted: Saturday, October 10, 2009

That lodge was not done correctly . I guess he just made up his own version of how one should be done . While these types of lodges are in all cultures , there are similarities and safety and protocols through out the history of them as well . From my point of view these were not followed by this person who ran this thing.Article comment by: Deepest sympathy · Posted: Sunday, October 11, 2009

The loss of lives is very sad indeed. And I agree, this type of activity should not be undertaken by those that do not understand all the necessary precautions that should be taken. With that said, I still do not blame Ray for not wanting to be interviewed by local LEOs without his attorney present. Anyone who does in this type of investigation is a fool. (God bless America and God bless the 5th Amendment!) Waugh know this, so I'm somewhat perplexed by his statement declaring he didn't know why Ray didn't want to talk to them. Give me a break. The other individuals interviewed were not necessarily liable for the lodge and the accident. And anyone who has lived in Yavapai County who has a lick of common sense knows YCSO does not play fair. Once again, sorry to hear about the losses and my heart goes out to their family and friends. I wish a speedy recovery to those that are still in the hospital.Article comment by: Old Gringo · Posted: Sunday, October 11, 2009

I do not know why he chose not to speak with us," Rhodes added. "Everyone else we have spoken with has been very forthcoming with information. Okay, at $9,695.00 a head times 50 paying customers, he made $484,750.00. That may have some thing to do with it when you think about all the pending lawsuits ! What qualifies this (man) to even pretend to understand the Warrior Way ? If you want to understand the Native American experience, go do some volunteer work on one of the reservations, and leave their sacred ceremonies alone.Article comment by: Dr. Hollis · Posted: Sunday, October 11, 2009

I know James Ray's work and have attended several of his other conferences. James is a tracker of personal power and seeks to understand and share with his attendees all of the global cultural practices, concepts and philosophies that enhance personal power. With all due respect to the Native American commentator, the sweat lodge was just one of the many ceremonies and philosophies he has studied. I dare say James has probably studied it more than and understands it in even more depth and more intently than the commentator. The sweat lodge is just one part of the conference, albeit a potentially dangerous part of the conference. One critical problem seems to have been medical judgment and the lack of emergency preparedness. For the past 7 years James has had 50 people do the same event without loss of life. ... This kind of event should've demanded a higher level practitioner i.e. Physician Assistant, Nurse practitioner or Physician who could've acted more aggressively to prevent loss of life. There should've been on site: #1-Supplemental Oxygen available (38-40 y.o. healthy people succumbed to carbon DIOXIDE excess and hypoxia -(low available O2) from the shear number of people breathing in and out in the closed space as well as heat exhaustion due to the elevated temperature. As well the altitude should've required O2 availability to prevent altitude sickness after the hike. #2 IV Fluid availability. This is the treatment for dehydration from profuse sweating and heat exhaustion. #3 There should've been a Portable External Defibrillator available for such a time as this. Every second is critical when a person is in full arrest. This was a tragic event, but better medical preparedness would've prevented loss of life.Article comment by: No name provided · Posted: Sunday, October 11, 2009

Life is dangerous. These people made a choice to put themselves in a potentially dangerous situation, believing that the benefits outweighed the risks. Enough said.Article comment by: just courious · Posted: Sunday, October 11, 2009

I'm sure that Mr. Ray went to the Yavapai County Building Dept. with plans and obtained permits to build this temporary structure, and then have the county inspect the structure before it could be occupied. I'm also sure that the then posted occupancy load was not exceeded for monetary purposes(yeah right!). This sort of thing happens when individuals ignore building, health, and fire codes.Article comment by: PETE · Posted: Sunday, October 11, 2009

The deaths do not make sense ( two "healthy") people, I wonder what all they put on those heated rocks besides water , or in the water itself or if the plastic melting from the steam gave off something toxic ? It as if something created a allergic reaction or induced a respiratory failure , aside from the fact that this "lodge" was done completely wrong from my understanding of how they are done traditionally. I am glad the YCSO is looking into this.Article comment by: earth school · Posted: Sunday, October 11, 2009

May the blessings of the spirit be upon those who have suffered. May the light of love shine on all who were involved, and may each person find themselves stronger because of these sad circumstances. Any time there is a ceremony involved it is powerful. Whether or not the person leading the ceremony knows all the ramifications of the ceremony depends on how much time they have spent learning. Always research the person you want to learn from, and then take the ceremony or skill back to nature and test it thoroughly in every way. Always make sure that your intent is pure, and not self serving in any way. Please don't let this tragedy distract you from learning and seeking a more pure spiritual life.Article comment by: No name provided · Posted: Sunday, October 11, 2009

Native American Ceremonies are sacred events from the creator and should only be led by natives or those who have been given rights by the native people. True ceremony does not include a price tag! Unfortunately this appears to be another example of white mans greed. Each time I crawl I give myself to the creator with no expectations and receive huge spiritual benefits to share with all people.Article comment by: Money Does Not Buy Happiness · Posted: Sunday, October 11, 2009

I truly feel sorry for the two who passed away (and their families) along with all the others who were harmed; don't let my 'name' fool you to thinking otherwise. That said, it is still beyond me how people think they can buy their way to some greater understanding of life, or a greater appreciation of life, over just plain common sense and living and learning as you go along. Whatever happened to "I make my choices and live with the consequences?"Article comment by: Old Gringo · Posted: Monday, October 12, 2009

Dr Hollis speak with forked tongue ! In what universe would some phony-baloney self help guru be "more qualified and better understand the ceremony" than the People ?Article comment by: No name provided · Posted: Tuesday, October 13, 2009

I am in agreement with many who have commented on this unfortunate event especially with Dr. Hollis. I have participated in the vision quest, and sweat lodge ceremony. I am also a sundancer, yet in 20 plus years money has not exchanged hands for the honor "the people" have so graciously bestowed by accepting me as family. James Ray has dishonored his family and the ways of his people and I suspect there are those in his community who are deeply ashamed of his choices and at the same time are grateful for the gas that fuels their cars, the food they eat, cloths for the children, and more. As the Gringo said maybe go to the reservation of your choice and do some work for the community, a greater understanding could be yours.Article comment by: Disgust · Posted: Tuesday, October 13, 2009

In the 20 yrs I have attended Native American ceremonies / sweat lodges run by Native Americans I have never heard of such a thing as what was done in Sedona . Never was anyone ever taken to a hospital . Reading the comment on page two of this says a lot . A woman who participated in one of James Ray Arthur's bogus ceremonies felt ripped off and his office refused to contact her and taking her $7,000 pretty much says it all . She is alive to say it ! This guy should be stopped . I hope the civil suits pile up as high as his ego . For Dr Hollis' defense of such a practice as what went on in sedona is abominable. To say that it was merely a lack of trained medical professionals is ludicrous . What they did in sedona was not in any way related to native american sweat lodge or ceremony.Article comment by: Dont drink the kool aid · Posted: Tuesday, October 13, 2009

Jonestown had a guy like him.Article comment by: Rancher up north · Posted: Tuesday, October 13, 2009

Call me "old age" rather than "New Age" if you like, but in my eyes, this looks like a bastardization of what is traditionally a freely-given, purposefully small, sacred ceremony.Article comment by: W to the · Posted: Thursday, October 15, 2009

I feel for the families of the people who lost their lives. If Mr. Ray "studied" the ceremony he missed the part about not having 50 people in it for 2 hours. Having been in several sweat lodges (and being Native American) I have never heard of such. It doesn't cost 9-10 grand, and emergency staff was never warranted or needed. Hopefully, people will leave Native traditions alone.Article comment by: Ismira · Posted: Saturday, October 17, 2009

(Site administrator's note: A portion of this comment was removed because it violated our Terms of Use Agreement)

Just calculate how much money he will get out of it ... Do you really think you can buy spiritual growth ??? with $$$$$$ the more you pay the more you get???[/list]
Article comment by: No name provided · Posted: Monday, October 19, 2009

As pathetic as James Ray is, and as much as i would love to see him pay through the civil and criminal process, it is scary to know that people would actually pay someone $9695 for this nonsense.Wake up.He is a snake oil salesman, he needs to be stopped!

© Copyright 2010 Western News&Info, Inc.® The Daily Courier is the information source for Prescott area communities in Northern Arizona.

Quote from: "Ursus"

Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
I couldn't even see that he changed anything. Then again, I have difficulty reading his posts. Especially when he quotes (or attempts to quote) somebody else.
He took a couple of sentences from the text that there were no criminal charges pending, and that they didn't know if there ever would be any, and inserted that into the article's headline.

Does Danny believe that James Ray shouldn't be held the least bit responsible in any way, shape, or form?

No I don't obviously, Ursus. I'm just not sure what responsibility to lay at his feet.
I have read Anne and your opinion's, I agree there was malfeasance but what. I am acting naive on purpose because I just don't have enough info. The Police report said, James was not talking so once again, we have to wait.

James Ray, fwiw, wasn't around anyway. He hightailed it back to California:

Waugh also said Ray, who led the sweat lodge ceremony, refused to talk to investigators on site and returned to California.

"We will at some point in time schedule another interview with him," Waugh said.

"I do not know why he chose not to speak with us," Rhodes added. "Everyone else we have spoken with has been very forthcoming with information."[/list]

By the accounts of his own staff that guru-warrior James Ray stood by without rendering aid as participants were suffering and dying.

I watched the Primetime on that tonight. It was intensely disturbing.It was so ugly to see the ad hoc collection of all too familiar elements that were incorporated into those *teachings*.“Play full on” was their dissembling stop thought of the act as if variety. On it went from the (literal) haircut initiation to holotropic breath work and on to inane psychodramas (which resulted in a jump to suicide from a previous group and by the last had James Ray robed in the role of a mute god while participants simulated seppuku/hara-kiri pantomimed sacrifices) + circular-logic and an amalgam of metphyspsychological hocus-pocus. What those people went through was a panoply of more of the same, and it’s just so awful. It was a Grand-Guignol, all culminating into the rebirthing experience that resulted in such senseless deaths.

Best line from that profile was: "The Laws of Attraction are very different from the laws of the State of Arizona."

Reportedly, he's had some difficulty actualizing his bail provisions and the self-styled guru-warrior's secret included a stash of steroids.

This article from the UK went into more detail re. the physical suffering that folks endured in the name of spiritual warrioring: "burns, dehydration, respiratory arrest, kidney failure or elevated body temperature."

-------------- • -------------- • --------------

The Sunday Times
October 11, 2009
Two die at 'sweat lodge' retreat led by author (http://http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article6869857.ece)

Times Online

A self-help author who featured in the movie version of The Secret is at the centre of a police investigation into the deaths of two people at a "sweat lodge" that was meant to provide spiritual cleansing.

Yavapai County Sheriff Steve Waugh said his detectives were focusing on James Arthur Ray and his staff as they try to determine if there was any criminal negligence.

James Shore, 40, of Milwaukee and Kirby Brown, 38, of New York died after being overcome during a ceremony in which people were crowded inside a sauna-like tent. Nineteen other people were taken to area hospitals, suffering from burns, dehydration, respiratory arrest, kidney failure or elevated body temperature. Most were soon released, but one remained in critical condition on Saturday.

Authorities have not determined what caused the deaths and illnesses, but ruled out carbon monoxide poisoning.

"We will continue this investigation down every road that is possible to find out if there is culpability on anybody relative to the deaths of these individuals," Sheriff Waugh said.

He said it could be three to four weeks before they knew if criminal charges would be filed. Sherriff Waugh said Mr Ray refused to speak with authorities and has since left the state.

The resort is owned by Michael and Amayra Hamilton, who have declined to comment.

Often used in Native American ceremonies, a sweat lodge, similar to a sauna, is an enclosed space where water is poured on heated rocks. The retreat lodge was only four and a half feet tall at its highest point, Mr Waugh said.

Mr Ray rented the Angel Valley Retreat Centre just outside Sedona to hold a five-day "Spiritual Warrior" retreat that promised to "absolutely change your life". Participants, whose ages ranged from 30 to the 60s, paid between $9,000 and $10,000 to attend this year's event.

Between 55 and 65 people were crowded into the 38.5-square-metre sweat lodge during a two-hour period that consisted of eight 15-minute rounds and various spiritual exercises led by Mr Ray, Sheriff Waugh said. After each round, the flap to the crudely constructed structure was raised to allow more heated rocks to be brought inside.

Authorities said participants were highly encouraged but not forced to remain in the sweat lodge for the full two hours.

The participants had fasted for 36 hours as part of a personal and spiritual quest in the wilderness, then ate a breakfast buffet on Thursday morning. After various seminars, they entered the sweat lodge lightly dressed at 3pm.

Two hours later, a woman dialled the emergency dispatcher to say that two people, whom Sherriff Waugh identified as Ms Brown and Mr Shore, did not have a pulse and weren't breathing.

A nurse hired by Mr Ray was directing rescue efforts including cardiopulmonary resuscitation when emergency crews arrived, Sherriff Waugh said. Mr Shore and Ms Brown were pronounced dead when they arrived at a hospital.

Autopsies were conducted on Friday, but the results are pending additional tests.

Sheriff's Lt David Rhodes said authorities are looking into whether there was a lag time between the first signs of medical distress and the emergency call.

Mr Ray, who was in the sweat lodge for the ceremony, has been holding retreats there since 2003. He has appeared on Oprah Winfrey's television show and wrote a best-selling book, Harmonic Wealth: The Secret of Attracting the Life You Want.

In his most recent posting on his Twitter account Mr Ray said he was "shocked and saddened" by the tragedy.

"My deep heartfelt condolences to family and friends of those who lost their lives," he wrote. "I am spending the weekend in prayer and meditation for all involved in this difficult time; and I ask you to join me in doing the same."

© Times Newspapers Ltd 2010 Registered in England No. 894646 Registered office: 1 Virginia Street, London, E98 1XY

Quote from: "Inculcated"

By the accounts of his own staff that guru-warrior James Ray stood by without rendering aid as participants were suffering and dying.

I watched the Primetime on that tonight. It was intensely disturbing.It was so ugly to see the ad hoc collection of all too familiar elements that were incorporated into those *teachings*.“Play full on” was their dissembling stop thought of the act as if variety. On it went from the (literal) haircut initiation to breath work

holotropic:
Holotropic Breathwork is a form of breathwork developed by Stanislav Grof, M.D., Ph.D. and Christina Grof, that allows access to nonordinary states of consciousness. Holotropic breathing has some similarities to Rebirthing-Breathwork, but was developed independently. Holotropic Breathwork is an approach to self-exploration and healing that integrates insights from modern consciousness research, anthropology, various depth psychologies, transpersonal psychology, Eastern spiritual practices, and mystical traditions of the world. The name Holotropic means "moving toward wholeness" (from the Greek "holos"=whole and "trepein"=moving in the direction of something).

The method comprises five elements: group process, intensified breathing (so-called hyperventilation), evocative music, focused body work, and expressive drawing. The method's general effect is a non-specific amplification of a person's psychic process, which facilitates the psyche's natural capacity for healing.

Holotropic Breathwork is usually done in groups, although individual sessions are done. Within the groups, people work in pairs and alternate in the roles of experiencer ("breather") and "sitter". The sitter's primary responsibility is to focus compassionate attention on the breather. Secondarily, the sitter is available to assist the breather, but not to interfere or interrupt the process. The same is true for trained facilitators, who are available as helpers if necessary.

Originally developed as an adjunct to psychedelic psychotherapy, Holotropic Breathwork is an autonomous psychotherapeutic practice which, nevertheless, retains many of the clinical precautionary measures that were implemented in the medical use of LSD.

and on to inane psychodramas (which resulted in a jump to suicide from a previous group and by the last had James Ray robed in the role of a mute god while participants simulated seppuku/hara-kiri pantomimed sacrifices) + circular-logic and an amalgam of

metphyspsychological: is this misspelled, if not what dictionary or book can I find it in.

What those people went through was a panoply of more of the same, and it’s just so awful. It was a
Grand-Guignol:
Le Théâtre du Grand-Guignol (French pronunciation: [???? ?i??l]: "The Theater of the Big Puppet") — known as the Grand Guignol — was in the Pigalle area of Paris (at 20 bis, rue Chaptal). From its opening in 1897 until its closing in 1962 it specialized in naturalistic horror shows. Its name is often used as a general term for graphic, amoral horror entertainment, a genre popular from Elizabethan and Jacobean theatre (for instance Shakespeare's Titus Andronicus and Webster's The White Devil) to today's splatter films.
Rocky Horror Picture Show; ........1979 Los Angles

all culminating into the rebirthing experience that resulted in such senseless deaths.

Best line from that profile was: "The Laws of Attraction are very different from the laws of the State of Arizona."

Reportedly, he's had some difficulty actualizing his bail provisions and the self-styled guru-warrior's secret included a stash of steroids.

No offense Inculcate but why do you reject so many different forms of healing. I am not necessarily talking about your responses to James Ray's fiasco. I think your own views are coming through also. You sound like you work in the mental health industry, I was wondering what would you suggest for yourself or others for healing treatment.

The Daily Courier
10/10/2009 5:04:00 PM

Sweat lodge victim's family says she was in shape (http://http://www.dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&subsectionID=1&articleID=73317)
By FELICIA FONSECA · The Associated Press

(http://http://www.dcourier.com/SiteImages/Article/73317a.jpg)
This April 2008 photo provided by the family of Kirby Brown shows the 38-year-old woman from Westtown, N.Y. Brown was one of two people who died after being overcome in a sauna-like sweat lodge during a retreat just outside of Sedona. Family of Kirby Brown/
The Associated Press

PRESCOTT - A 38-year-old New York woman who died after sitting in a sauna-like sweat lodge at a scenic Arizona resort was an avid surfer and hiker who was "in top shape," took self-improvement seriously and had a passion for art, a family spokesman said.

Kirby Brown of Westtown, N.Y., had no pre-existing health conditions that would have kept her from participating in an otherwise safe activity, said cousin and family spokesman Tom McFeeley. That two people died and 19 others became ill indicates that "something went horribly wrong."

"Our only thought is shock, sadness and surprise," McFeeley said. "There will be plenty of time to react to the truth of what happened here, but we believe it is pointless to be angry or to place blame or to make assumptions before we understand what occurred here."

Brown was one of two people who died Thursday evening after being overcome in a crudely built sweat lodge during a spiritual cleansing ceremony at the Angel Valley Retreat Center. Authorities on Saturday identified the other victim as 40-year-old James Shore of Milwaukee.

A man who answered the door at Shore's address in Wisconsin said he had no immediate comment.

Nineteen other people were taken to hospitals, suffering from burns, dehydration, respiratory arrest, kidney failure or elevated body temperature. Most were soon released, but one remained in critical condition Saturday.

Autopsies on Brown and Shore were conducted Friday, but the results weren't disclosed pending additional tests.

Authorities haven't determined what caused the deaths and illnesses but ruled out carbon monoxide poisoning.

Yavapai County Sheriff Steve Waugh said Saturday his detectives were focusing on self-help expert and author James Arthur Ray and his staff as they try to determine if criminal negligence played a role. Waugh said Ray refused to speak with authorities and has since left the state. No charges have been filed.

"We will continue this investigation down every road that is possible to find out if there is culpability on anybody relative to the deaths of these individuals," Waugh said.

He said it could be three to four weeks before they knew if criminal charges would be filed.

Ray's recent postings on his Twitter account said he was "shocked and saddened" by the tragedy.

"My deep heartfelt condolences to family and friends of those who lost their lives," he wrote. "I am spending the weekend in prayer and meditation for all involved in this difficult time; and I ask you to join me in doing the same.

Ray's company, James Ray International, is based in Carlsbad, Calif. His publicist, Howard Bragman, declined to comment Friday and didn't return a call Saturday from The Associated Press.

The Angel Valley Retreat Center is owned by Michael and Amayra Hamilton, who have declined to comment.

Ray rented the resort to hold a five-day "Spiritual Warrior" retreat that promised to "absolutely change your life." Ray has held similar retreats at the resort in the past. Participants, whose ages ranged from 30 to the 60s, paid between $9,000 and $10,000 to attend this year's event.

Between 55 and 65 people were crowded into the 415-square-foot sweat lodge during a two-hour period that consisted of eight 15-minute rounds and various spiritual exercises led by Ray, Waugh said. After each round, the flap to the crudely constructed structure was raised to allow more heated rocks to be brought inside.

Authorities said participants were highly encouraged but not forced to remain in the sweat lodge for the entire two hours.

The participants had fasted for 36 hours as part of a personal and spiritual quest in the wilderness, then ate a breakfast buffet Thursday morning. After various seminars, they entered the sweat lodge lightly dressed at 3 p.m.

Two hours later, a woman dialed 911 to say that two people, whom Waugh identified as Brown and Shore, did not have a pulse and weren't breathing.

A nurse hired by Ray was directing rescue efforts including CPR when emergency crews arrived, Waugh said. Shore and Brown were pronounced dead when they arrived at a hospital.

Sheriff's Lt. David Rhodes said authorities are looking into whether there was a lag time between the first signs of medical distress and the emergency call.

McFeeley said Brown had attended similar retreats, although he wasn't certain whether any were hosted by Ray. He said Brown, who grew up in Brooklyn and Westtown, saw the outing as a chance to continue on a positive path in life.

Brown, a graduate of the State University of New York at Genesco, had two sisters who recently got married, two new nephews and a focus on "making the world more beautiful for someone, not only with her art but with her heart," McFeeley said. Although the family is saddened by her death, he said Brown created a roadmap by which others should live.

"She was the least selfish, kindest person I knew," he said.

© Copyright 2010 Western News&Info, Inc.® The Daily Courier is the information source for Prescott area communities in Northern Arizona.

Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010

Quote from: "Ursus"

The Daily Courier
10/10/2009 5:04:00 PM

Sweat lodge victim's family says she was in shape (http://http://www.dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&subsectionID=1&articleID=73317)
By FELICIA FONSECA · The Associated Press

(http://http://www.dcourier.com/SiteImages/Article/73317a.jpg)
This April 2008 photo provided by the family of Kirby Brown shows the 38-year-old woman from Westtown, N.Y. Brown was one of two people who died after being overcome in a sauna-like sweat lodge during a retreat just outside of Sedona. Family of Kirby Brown/
The Associated Press

PRESCOTT - A 38-year-old New York woman who died after sitting in a sauna-like sweat lodge at a scenic Arizona resort was an avid surfer and hiker who was "in top shape," took self-improvement seriously and had a passion for art, a family spokesman said.

Kirby Brown of Westtown, N.Y., had no pre-existing health conditions that would have kept her from participating in an otherwise safe activity, said cousin and family spokesman Tom McFeeley. That two people died and 19 others became ill indicates that "something went horribly wrong."

"Our only thought is shock, sadness and surprise," McFeeley said. "There will be plenty of time to react to the truth of what happened here, but we believe it is pointless to be angry or to place blame or to make assumptions before we understand what occurred here."

Brown was one of two people who died Thursday evening after being overcome in a crudely built sweat lodge during a spiritual cleansing ceremony at the Angel Valley Retreat Center. Authorities on Saturday identified the other victim as 40-year-old James Shore of Milwaukee.

A man who answered the door at Shore's address in Wisconsin said he had no immediate comment.

Nineteen other people were taken to hospitals, suffering from burns, dehydration, respiratory arrest, kidney failure or elevated body temperature. Most were soon released, but one remained in critical condition Saturday.

Autopsies on Brown and Shore were conducted Friday, but the results weren't disclosed pending additional tests.

Authorities haven't determined what caused the deaths and illnesses but ruled out carbon monoxide poisoning.

Yavapai County Sheriff Steve Waugh said Saturday his detectives were focusing on self-help expert and author James Arthur Ray and his staff as they try to determine if criminal negligence played a role. Waugh said Ray refused to speak with authorities and has since left the state. No charges have been filed.

"We will continue this investigation down every road that is possible to find out if there is culpability on anybody relative to the deaths of these individuals," Waugh said.

He said it could be three to four weeks before they knew if criminal charges would be filed.

Ray's recent postings on his Twitter account said he was "shocked and saddened" by the tragedy.

"My deep heartfelt condolences to family and friends of those who lost their lives," he wrote. "I am spending the weekend in prayer and meditation for all involved in this difficult time; and I ask you to join me in doing the same.

Ray's company, James Ray International, is based in Carlsbad, Calif. His publicist, Howard Bragman, declined to comment Friday and didn't return a call Saturday from The Associated Press.

The Angel Valley Retreat Center is owned by Michael and Amayra Hamilton, who have declined to comment.

Ray rented the resort to hold a five-day "Spiritual Warrior" retreat that promised to "absolutely change your life." Ray has held similar retreats at the resort in the past. Participants, whose ages ranged from 30 to the 60s, paid between $9,000 and $10,000 to attend this year's event.

Between 55 and 65 people were crowded into the 415-square-foot sweat lodge during a two-hour period that consisted of eight 15-minute rounds and various spiritual exercises led by Ray, Waugh said. After each round, the flap to the crudely constructed structure was raised to allow more heated rocks to be brought inside.

Authorities said participants were highly encouraged but not forced to remain in the sweat lodge for the entire two hours.

The participants had fasted for 36 hours as part of a personal and spiritual quest in the wilderness, then ate a breakfast buffet Thursday morning. After various seminars, they entered the sweat lodge lightly dressed at 3 p.m.

Two hours later, a woman dialed 911 to say that two people, whom Waugh identified as Brown and Shore, did not have a pulse and weren't breathing.

A nurse hired by Ray was directing rescue efforts including CPR when emergency crews arrived, Waugh said. Shore and Brown were pronounced dead when they arrived at a hospital.

Sheriff's Lt. David Rhodes said authorities are looking into whether there was a lag time between the first signs of medical distress and the emergency call.

McFeeley said Brown had attended similar retreats, although he wasn't certain whether any were hosted by Ray. He said Brown, who grew up in Brooklyn and Westtown, saw the outing as a chance to continue on a positive path in life.

Brown, a graduate of the State University of New York at Genesco, had two sisters who recently got married, two new nephews and a focus on "making the world more beautiful for someone, not only with her art but with her heart," McFeeley said. Although the family is saddened by her death, he said Brown created a roadmap by which others should live.

"She was the least selfish, kindest person I knew," he said.

© Copyright 2010 Western News&Info, Inc.® The Daily Courier is the information source for Prescott area communities in Northern Arizona.

Like I said these were not folks without smarts.

Quote from: "DannyB II"

Like I said these were not folks without smarts.

Often it is they who are the easiest to be duped. Precisely 'cuz they don't believe they can be.

Appealing to a mark's vanity on the basis of their intelligence, "spirituality," altruism, idealism, or even "manliness," to cite some examples, is the surest way to get a mark invested in getting him or herself hooked on the koolaid.

Quote from: "Ursus"

Quote from: "DannyB II"
Like I said these were not folks without smarts.
Often it is they who are the easiest to be duped. Precisely 'cuz they don't believe they can be.

Appealing to a mark's vanity on the basis of their intelligence, "spirituality," altruism, idealism, or even "manliness," to cite some examples, is the surest way to get a mark invested in getting him or herself hooked on the koolaid.

I will not argue this point, Ursus. Been guilty myself a few times.
I don't believe it is as sinister as you make it, though. Maybe I am reading
more into your posts, if I am I apologize.
I also don't believe this is your typical "kool-aid" drinking populace. They were
not there for the kool-aid, I think the experience they were looking for was like
a drug, they just wanted to get high.
I hope this makes some sense, it is the best way I can explain what I am trying to say.

Something else to think about......Its just a sweat lodge for most of these people. Like a trip to the spa. They see it as a weekend of cleansing, not a life style. It gets them away from their lives and gives them something to talk about at their next social event. The $9-10,000 cost is meaningless to most of them. The relatively high cost insures everyone attending that they will be hanging around with a certain social class and the cost eliminates the chances of having to sit next to some uneducated sweaty guys drinking beer they snuck into the lodge. If they charged only $500 for the weekend not one of those people would have signed up.

...

Quote from: "Whooter"

Something else to think about......Its just a sweat lodge for most of these people. Like a trip to the spa. They see it as a weekend of cleansing, not a life style. It gets them away from their lives and gives them something to talk about at their next social event. The $9-10,000 cost is meaningless to most of them. The relatively high cost insures everyone attending that they will be hanging around with a certain social class and the cost eliminates the chances of having to sit next to some uneducated sweaty guys drinking beer they snuck into the lodge. If they charged only $500 for the weekend not one of those people would have signed up.

Hmm. I disagree that it was "just a sweat lodge" for most of them, though I'd venture that your observation might well hold true for some of them.

If it was just a "weekend of cleansing," chances are, more than a few would have bailed when they began to believe they were dying. From what I've read, this sentiment was voiced by a number of folk during this experience. What caused them to stay, despite their bodies' signals of distress, and contrary to all common sense? James Ray's exhortations to push through the physical discomfort and to transcend it, that's what. And he — being the guru of "spiritual" wealth whose wisdom they were seeking — is who they listened to. Not to themselves.

IMO, for most of them, this was a several-day LGAT, filled more or less with 'round the clock indoctrination via a variety of means, in the company of "harmonic like-minded individuals." But sure, there *is* a certain elitism to that type of "spirituality."

Quote from: "Ursus"

they began to believe they were dying.

No pain, no gain. :clown:

A lot of people love that stuff. My inlaws still talk about how much it changed their lives and how good they felt for a few days after they attended est. They realize it was a “mind fuck” but they liked it. I am sure this guru had everyone on the hook and believing what he told them (not what their own bodies were). If you have confidence in someone then its not hard to let them take over for awhile. The LGAT, if it was used, was probably part of the high leading up to the sweat lodge. The guy just screwed up or didn’t know what he was doing.

We people who dropped acid in the 60’s and 70’s knew we risked flashbacks or a bad trip or even death. Maybe that was the lure. We were careful not to do it often as to preserve as many brain cells as possible. But it was fun looking forward to doing it again and recalling the experiences we had together.

...

Comments (http://http://www.dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&subsectionID=1&articleID=73317) left for the above article, "Sweat lodge victim's family says she was in shape (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=28923&p=368269#p368266)" (by Felicia Fonseca; Oct. 10, 2009; The Daily Courier/AP):

Article comment by: Cosmopolitan · Posted: Sunday, October 11, 2009

(Site administrator's note: A portion of this comment was removed because it violated our Terms of Use Agreement, specifically paragraph one (1) of the Use of Service section: "You may not post, upload, or transmit any material or links to material that is libelous, defamatory, false, misleading, obscene, indecent, lewd, pornographic, violent, abusive, threatening, harassing, discriminatory, racist, vulgar, invasive of another's privacy, illegal, constitutes hate speech, or harms minors in any way.)[/list]
Article comment by: my salvation is free and my God is with me always · Posted: Monday, October 12, 2009

True spiritual enlightenment doesn't carry a monetary price. A true spiritual leader doesn't hit the road after collecting the money when something like this happens. In fact, something like this wouldn't be happening at all...It's a shame these scams persist.Article comment by: Happy now? · Posted: Monday, October 12, 2009

I guess I don't get it. Isn't the whole purpose of this thing to "connect" with some higher level of existance? So why is everyone so upset? These people have achieved what they were looking for (we can only assume). I don't personally think there is anything more than what we have here and now, but from what I hear others saying they can't seem to wait to move on to the "afterlife" or whatever it may be. If it is so wonderful why is everyone so upset when someone dies?

© Copyright 2010 Western News&Info, Inc.® The Daily Courier is the information source for Prescott area communities in Northern Arizona.

This version published by CBS is pretty much the same (as the previous article); however, it does give some additional details on James Shore:

-------------- • -------------- • --------------

cbsnews.com CRIMESIDER
October 12, 2009 9:41 AM

Family Says New Yorker Kirby Brown was in Great Shape before Mysterious Sweat Lodge Death (http://http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-5378496-504083.html?tag=contentMain%3bcontentBody)
Posted by Edecio Martinez

(http://http://wwwimage.cbsnews.com/images/2009/10/11/image5377289x.jpg)
Photo: Kirby Brown.
(AP Photo/Family of Kirby Brown)

PRESCOTT, Ariz. (CBS/AP) Kirby Brown seemed to be in the prime of her life. Her family says the 38-year-old New York woman who died after sitting in a sauna-like sweat lodge at a scenic Arizona resort was an avid surfer and hiker who was "in top shape," took self-improvement seriously and had a passion for art.

Brown of Westtown, N.Y., was one of two people who died Thursday evening after being overcome in the crudely built hut during a spiritual cleansing ceremony. Authorities on Saturday identified the other victim as 40-year-old James Shore of Milwaukee, who served as director of business development at an Internet marketing company in his hometown.

Nineteen other people were taken to hospitals, suffering from burns, dehydration, respiratory arrest, kidney failure or elevated body temperature. Most were soon released, but one remained in critical condition Saturday.

Brown had no pre-existing health conditions that would have kept her from participating in an otherwise safe activity, said cousin and family spokesman Tom McFeeley. That two people died and 19 others became ill at the Angel Valley Retreat Center indicates that "something went horribly wrong."

"Our only thought is shock, sadness and surprise," McFeeley said. "There will be plenty of time to react to the truth of what happened here, but we believe it is pointless to be angry or to place blame or to make assumptions before we understand what occurred here."

Yavapai County Sheriff Steve Waugh said Saturday that his detectives were focusing on self-help expert and author James Arthur Ray and his staff as they try to determine if criminal negligence played a role. Waugh said Ray refused to speak with authorities and has since left the state.

Ray is a polished self-help guru who was appeared on Oprah and Larry King, according to his own website.

Ray rented the Angel Valley Retreat Center for a five-day "Spiritual Warrior" retreat that promised to "absolutely change your life." Ray has held an annual event at the resort for seven years without incident, according to property owner Amayra Hamilton.

Police are now looking at the large number of people who were asked to sit in a 415-square-foot super-heated structure. The 55 to 65 participants had fasted for 36 hours before sitting in the temporary sweat lodge. Authorities said participants were highly encouraged, but not forced, to remain in the sweat lodge for the entire time.

The group entered the structure at 3 p.m. Two hours later, a woman dialed 911 to say that two people, whom Waugh identified as Brown and Shore, did not have a pulse and weren't breathing.

Matt Collins, who knew Shore since seventh grade, described his friend as a wonderful husband and father whose life revolved around his three kids. "Everybody who got to know him absolutely loved him," Collins told The Associated Press.

Collins said he was stunned to hear of Shore's death, and the family remained in shock.

"Right now we're trying to focus on making sure that his wife, his children are comforted during this time," he said.

Autopsies on Brown and Shore were conducted Friday, but the results weren't disclosed pending additional tests. Authorities have ruled out carbon monoxide poising as the cause.

Brown, a graduate of the State University of New York at Geneseo, had two sisters who recently got married, two new nephews and a focus on "making the world more beautiful for someone, not only with her art but with her heart," McFeeley said. Although the family is saddened by her death, he said Brown created a roadmap by which others should live.

"She was the least selfish, kindest person I knew," he said.

Copyright ©2010 CBS Interactive Inc.

http://saltydroid.info/who-killed-colleen-conaway/ (http://saltydroid.info/who-killed-colleen-conaway/)
http://saltydroid.info/james-arthur-ray ... favorites/ (http://saltydroid.info/james-arthur-rays-television-favorites/)

Quote from: "minn kota"

http://saltydroid.info/who-killed-colleen-conaway/ (http://saltydroid.info/who-killed-colleen-conaway/)
http://saltydroid.info/james-arthur-ray ... favorites/ (http://saltydroid.info/james-arthur-rays-television-favorites/)

Such a contrast ... from what's on his website (!):

-------------- • -------------- • --------------

About James Ray (http://http://jamesray.com/company/about-james-ray.php)

(http://http://jamesray.com/skin1/images/james-08.jpg)

James Arthur Ray is transforming the way the world thinks. As an internationally-renowned Personal Success Strategist, Visionary and New York Times Best-Selling Author who has traveled the globe dedicating over two decades of his life to studying the thoughts, actions, and habits of those who create true wealth in every area of their life, James delivers his practical teachings to hundreds of thousands of individuals and business leaders every year.

James is President and CEO of his own multi-million dollar corporation, James Ray International (JRI), which was named to Inc. Magazine's coveted Inc. 500 list of America's fastest-growing private companies in the September 2009 issue, reaching a remarkable 547.4% growth over the previous three years. JRI is dedicated to mentoring individuals to create wealth in all areas of their lives: financially, relationally, mentally, physically and spiritually. James' most recent book, Harmonic Wealth: The Secret of Attracting the Life You Want, reached number five on the New York Times Best-Sellers list in its first week in print.

Throughout his life, James Arthur Ray has studied and been exposed to a wide diversity of teachings and teachers – from his collegiate learning and the schools of the corporate world, to the ancient cultures of Peru, Egypt and the Amazon. Armed with this comprehensive and diverse background in behavioral sciences, coupled with his experience as a successful, entrepreneur, and an avid thirst for spiritual knowledge, James boasts the unique and powerful ability to blend the practical and mystical into a usable and easy-to-access formula for achieving true wealth across all aspects of life.

Seeking to share his unique way of living with individuals around the world, James presents his insights at public appearances and seminars over 200 days each year. His Journey of Power® events fuse together the wealth-building principles, success strategies, and the teachings of all great spiritual traditions and practices that he has experienced and assimilated over the last 25 years.

James Arthur Ray has made multiple appearances on The Oprah Winfrey Show and Larry King Live, and is a recurring guest on NBC's top-rated national morning show, Today. He has been featured in numerous publications, both regionally and nationally, including a feature article in a March 2009 issue of The New York Times on the growing success of his Harmonic Wealth Weekends and an April 2008 profile in Fortune Magazine.

© 2010 James Ray

Here's an article from Wisconsin, from which James Shore originated...

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WISN.com
Milwaukee Man's Death At Sweat Lodge Still Under Investigation (http://http://www.wisn.com/news/21276855/detail.html)
Arizona Police Trying To Figure Out Cause Of Death

POSTED: 6:07 pm CDT October 12, 2009
UPDATED: 7:05 pm CDT October 12, 2009

(http://http://www.wisn.com/2009/1012/21277180_240X180.jpg)

MILWAUKEE -- The family of the Milwaukee man who died at an Arizona retreat last week is waiting for answers.

James Shore, 40, of Bay View, was one of two who died during a spiritual cleansing exercise called a sweat lodge.

Arizona police are still investigating and can't say if it was the heat or toxic fumes that killed Shore and a New York woman. James Shore attended the retreat run by popular motivational speaker James Arthur Ray. Ray called it the "spiritual warrior," which he described as "a heroic quest for higher consciousness."

More than 60 people paid $10,000 each to attend Ray's retreat at a resort near Sedona, Ariz. The retreat involved a 36-hour fast, followed by a sweat lodge. The sweat lodge is a Native American tradition, a spiritual sauna of sorts, where participants gather under a makeshift tent and pour water over hot rocks. 40 others ended up getting sick while at the retreat.

"We attempted to interview Mr. Ray at the scene. He refused to talk to us," said Sheriff Steve Waugh of Yavapai County, Ariz.

Shore was the married father of three who lived in Bay View. Shore also operated internet marketing businesses from an office on Capitol Drive in Milwaukee. No one there would comment.

"We are shocked and saddened by James' sudden death. Our primary focus now is to take care of our family and friends. We will continue to grieve for the loss of James and honor his memory as a dedicated husband, father, brother and son. We are awaiting the results of the investigation," Shore's younger brother said in a written statement.

The incident prompted criticism from some who question gathering that many people in such a small space, including Mario Black Wolf who owns a sweat lodge.

"Everybody has the right to believe and practice the way they wish to, but when it endangers the lives of others, or when you have to pay for it, that's not a spiritual belief," Black Wolf said.

Investigators say it will be weeks before they can determine if criminal charges are warranted against event organizers. They intend to interview Ray, who's only comment has been on his Facebook and Twitter pages where he wrote, "I am spending the weekend in prayer and meditation for all involved in this difficult time; and I ask you to join me in doing the same."

Copyright 2010 by WISN.com.

Comment (http://http://www.wisn.com/news/21276855/detail.html) left for the above article, "Milwaukee Man's Death At Sweat Lodge Still Under Investigation (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=28923&p=368470#p368470)" (Oct. 12, 2009, WISN.com):

manystarswoman · Oct. 14, 2009 2:08pm

OK- now I have heard it all- people paying 10 grand to go to a sweat lodge and fast. This guy is rediculous. You can attend a sweat lodge here in Alberta and all that is expected is an offering- not to the medicine man but to the "spirits" (or angels, grandfathers and grandmother spirits who help). The offering is something from the heart- not necessarily and very infrequently from the bank.....I have come with only a rock to offer, you give what you can. When you are asked for money BEWARE- this person is probably a fraudster....

Copyright 2010 by WISN.com.

CBSnews.com · CRIMESIDER
October 12, 2009 10:20 AM

Sweat Lodge Death Investigation Turns to Self-Help Guru James Arthur Ray (http://http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-5378668-504083.html)

Posted by Neil Katz

(http://http://wwwimage.cbsnews.com/images/2009/10/12/image5378574x.jpg)
Photo: James Arthur Ray. (JamesRay.com)

PRESCOTT, Ariz. (CBS/AP) Police have now turned their attention to television self-help guru James Arthur Ray in their investigation of an Arizona sweat lodge ceremony that left two dead and 19 hospitalized.

Yavapai County Sheriff Steve Waugh said Saturday that his detectives were focusing on the self-help expert and his staff as they try to determine if criminal negligence played a role in the tragic deaths at the Angel Valley Retreat Center in Sedona, Ariz., on Oct. 9.

The town is a desert vacation spot two hours north of Phoenix that is popular with those seeking meditation and spiritual health.

Waugh said Ray refused to speak with authorities and has since left the state.

"We will continue this investigation down every road that is possible to find out if there is culpability on anybody relative to the deaths of these individuals," Waugh said. He said it could be three to four weeks before they knew if criminal charges would be filed.

Ray's recent postings on his Twitter account (http://http://twitter.com/jamesaray) said he was "shocked and saddened" by the tragedy.

"My deep heartfelt condolences to family and friends of those who lost their lives," he wrote. "I am spending the weekend in prayer and meditation for all involved in this difficult time; and I ask you to join me in doing the same."

Ray claims to help people achieve both spiritual and financial wealth. "The real key to creating the life of your dreams is achieving true Harmonic Wealth?," he says on his Web site (http://http://jamesray.com/), trademark included.

The self-styled success guru, who has appeared on Oprah, Larry King and the movie "The Secret," says people are ready for his wisdom if "You simply (and deeply) want to make more money and become more successful" and "want to double, triple, even multiply by ten the size of your business."

It's not clear what type of financial wizardry was being taught inside the 415-square-foot homemade sweat lodge when a 38-year-old female surfer and a 40-year-old father of three dropped dead.

Ray's company, James Ray International, is based in Carlsbad, Calif. Ray's publicist, Howard Bragman, expressed condolences in a statement Friday but declined to speak about the deaths. Bragman didn't return a call for additional comment Saturday.

The Angel Valley Retreat Center is owned by Michael and Amayra Hamilton, who rented it to Ray for a five-day "Spiritual Warrior" retreat that promised to "absolutely change your life."

On Saturday, Amayra Hamilton said Ray has held the event at the resort for seven years, and there never have been any problems.

Hamilton said the resort remains closed to the public. The sweat lodge has been dismantled and a ceremony was conducted for those affected by Thursday's incident.

"The whole situation is very traumatizing for everybody," she said.

The people at Ray's retreat, whose ages ranged from 30 to the 60s, paid between $9,000 and $10,000 to attend.

Ray and his staff constructed the temporary sweat lodge with a wood frame and covered it with layers of tarps and blankets, Waugh said. The sweat lodge — a structure commonly used by American Indian tribes to cleanse the body and prepare for hunts, ceremonies and other events — was 53 inches high at the center and about 30 inches high around the outer edges.

Between 55 and 65 people were crowded into the 415-square-foot space during a two-hour period that included various spiritual exercises led by Ray, Waugh said. Every 15 minutes, a flap was raised to allow more volcanic rocks the size of cantaloupes to be brought inside.

Authorities said participants were highly encouraged but not forced to remain in the sweat lodge for the entire time.

Joseph Bruchac, author of "The Native American Sweat Lodge: History and Legends," called the number of participants in the lodge "appalling."

"If you put people in a restrictive, airtight structure, you are going to use up all oxygen," he said by phone Saturday from his home in Saratoga Springs, N.Y. "And if you're doing a sweat, you're going to use it up that much faster."

American Indian sweat lodges typically hold about 12 people and are covered with blankets made of natural materials, such as cotton or wool, and the air flow isn't restricted, he said.

"I don't see how the person running that lodge could have been aware of the health and well-being of that many people," he said.

The participants had fasted for 36 hours as part of a personal and spiritual quest in the wilderness, then ate a breakfast buffet Thursday morning. After various seminars, they entered the sweat lodge lightly dressed at 3 p.m.

Two hours later, a woman dialed 911 to say that two people, whom Waugh identified as 38-year old New Yorker Kirby Brown and 40-year-old James Shore of Milwaukee, did not have a pulse and weren't breathing.

According to a family spokesperson, Brown was an avid surfer and hiker who was "in top shape," before the mysterious sweat lodge death.

(http://http://wwwimage.cbsnews.com/images/2009/10/11/image5377289x.jpg)
Photo: Kirby Brown in undated family image. (AP Photo/Family of Kirby Brown)

A nurse hired by Ray was directing rescue efforts including CPR when emergency crews arrived, Waugh said. Shore and Brown were pronounced dead when they arrived at a hospital.

Sheriff's Lt. David Rhodes said authorities were checking whether there was a lag time between the first signs of medical distress and the emergency call.

Autopsies on Brown and Shore were conducted Friday, but the results weren't disclosed pending additional tests. Authorities have ruled out carbon monoxide poising as the cause.

Matt Collins, who knew Shore since seventh grade, described his friend as a wonderful husband and father whose life revolved around his three kids. "Everybody who got to know him absolutely loved him," Collins told The Associated Press.

Brown, a graduate of the State University of New York at Geneseo, had two sisters who recently got married, two new nephews and a focus on "making the world more beautiful for someone, not only with her art but with her heart," family spokesman Tom McFeeley said. Although the family is saddened by her death, he said Brown created a roadmap by which others should live.

"She was the least selfish, kindest person I knew," he said.

McFeeley said Brown had attended similar retreats, although he wasn't certain whether any were hosted by Ray. He said Brown, who grew up in Brooklyn and Westtown and spent time in Mexico, saw the outing as a chance to continue on a positive path in life.

Copyright ©2010 CBS Interactive Inc.

This set of comments includes not only a reference to the aforementioned mysterious suicide (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=28923&p=368658#p368321) of Colleen Conaway (whilst attending one of James Ray's seminars), but also former James Ray followers who want their money back!

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Comments (http://http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-5378668-504083.html) left for the above article, "Sweat Lodge Death Investigation Turns to Self-Help Guru James Arthur Ray (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=28923&p=368658#p368544)" (by Neil Katz; Oct. 12, 2009; CBS News Crimesider), #s 1-30:

• by RenHombre October 12, 2009 1:41 PM EDT

• by meroe_9 October 12, 2009 10:48 PM EDT

• by LightInformation October 14, 2009 9:41 AM EDT

[/list]
• by jntlw October 12, 2009 1:46 PM EDT

Any guru or preacher who professes to teach you the "how to get wealthy' is a crock. If you are a Chrisitan, money is not your goal and should never be first and foremost. These people were paying to get rich through some bogus guru offering bogus theories and methods and they end up dead. Stop looking to get rich and just be happy in life and work and produce at that which pleases you most and helps society - that is true riches.

• by Cheryl_Laures October 13, 2009 7:39 PM EDT

• by hogi2 October 20, 2009 11:58 PM EDT

Being a Christian has nothing to do with this.[/list]
• by all_father October 12, 2009 2:34 PM EDT

The numbers here are shocking. 60 people in a sweat room with less volume than a small living room! Someone needs to go to jail for this catastrophe. And Ray is first, followed by the Hamiltons. Sad, too, that the participants didn't think about their risk... proof positive that trusting any "guru" can be deadly.• by Awakened1 October 12, 2009 2:53 PM EDT

That's really sad. I knew that guy had bad karma written all over him. Just goes to show you that the "powers that be" don't like it when someone uses their spiritual awareness and rapport w/ people to take advantage of what's supposed to be the most sacred side of people. I hope James Ray has gotten his "message" through meditation he was seeking. Maybe if he stepped outside of himself or his ego for a moment, he would see it plain as day. Come on....9 to 10 GRAND for a spiritual weekend retreat??? 65 people = $650,000! I have also learned that NO ONE should conduct a "sweat" unless they are Native American or have a tribe's blessing to do so and are being assisted. Some Native American's don't do it until they are "called" to. I do have to say, he had it coming to him...James Ray that is. Those people gave their lives, I hope he learns the lesson that they sacrificed themselves for him to learn.

• by kwhitecloud October 12, 2009 10:50 PM EDT

With that kind of money, one would think these people could have bought some blankets to cover the lodge and maybe a few cases of WATER.[/list]
• by momofthreebo October 12, 2009 2:55 PM EDT

Self help guro, my butt...He is nothing but a money hungry idiot trying to make a pofit off sacred native traditions. My heart goes out to all the families involved.• by TwistedFeather12 October 12, 2009 3:37 PM EDT

Writer has been working with sweats for over 20 years and have not seen a death. With saying this writer has worked with Elders and people have to know there is a protocol to follow with sweats. Many people use native spirituality as a quick fix to make money.The regultions of having a sweat are earned and having a great abundence of people in the lodge is unnatural. It is with great sadness to the families who have lost their loved ones for a quick fix society for false healing. Please leave the native culture to the First Nations Elders and to the right people who earn the sweat rights. If needing to have a sweat for health please go to a reservation and give tabacco and monetary gift to an Elder for help. Thank you

• by kwhitecloud October 12, 2009 10:45 PM EDT

Well Said.[/list]
• by Thousandoaks October 12, 2009 7:22 PM EDT

• by Ahaseheset October 12, 2009 8:02 PM EDT

• by JaclyneW October 12, 2009 10:28 PM EDT

[/list]
• by clhs2007 October 12, 2009 7:24 PM EDT

55-65 people? WOW; Paying for a sweat? Wow, I'm at a loss of words. One of the dumbest things thats ever happened!• by Ahaseheset October 12, 2009 7:55 PM EDT

• by apachepat07 October 14, 2009 1:45 PM EDT

you cant stop it. know matter what they say. White men will run all kinds of ceremonies. some for money some not. I agree but the question is how do we deal with the problem because like the life it will go on. Believe me I've seen it all living on the west coast. Just pray.[/list]
• by parkrapidsmn October 12, 2009 8:39 PM EDT

• by JaclyneW October 12, 2009 10:34 PM EDT

• by ChristopherBlackwell October 12, 2009 10:38 PM EDT

Another greedy spiritual con man who making money was more important than reasonable safety of his followers. Anyone with sense would never keep anyone in a sweat lodge for so long. Fools running sweat lodges can kill people and con men are always fools when chasing enrichment.
• by willwalden October 12, 2009 11:09 PM EDT

Like others here in Sedona I live here and was saddened and angered by this tragedy which could have been avoided. I spoke to some local nurses about this tragedy and they told me there is some sort of loophole in the law that requires only "minimal" medical coverage for an event of this type. Apparently all that is required is to have one nurse on call, and not even necessarily on site, and the organizers are covered according to the insurance companies that deal with this sort of event. $600,000 plus revenue went to the guy and ONE NURSE was paid to be available. No equipment, no ambulance, nothing - just one poor nurse left to deal with whatever happens. This also needs to be looked at and fixed before another one of these guys shows up here.• by kwhitecloud October 12, 2009 11:21 PM EDT

• by SotaMabaTanke October 14, 2009 5:08 PM EDT

[/list]
• by kwhitecloud October 12, 2009 11:36 PM EDT

STOP SELLING TRADITIONS STOP SELLING TRADITIONS STOP SELLING TRADITIONS STOP SELLING TRADITIONS...that was four times. DOOR !• by DeleneSC October 13, 2009 12:31 AM EDT

• by jewelz33 October 13, 2009 12:44 AM EDT

Well said DeleneSC!!• by NikEst October 16, 2009 12:21 PM EDT

[/list]
• by jewelz33 October 13, 2009 12:42 AM EDT

• by sshakeri02 October 13, 2009 4:06 AM EDT

Quote from: "Ursus"

This set of comments includes not only a reference to the aforementioned mysterious suicide (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=28923&p=368658#p368321) of Colleen Conaway (whilst attending one of James Ray's seminars), but also former James Ray followers who want their money back!

Jeesh now we have a mysterious suicide attached to this, wow I wonder what next Tuesday episode will bring. :suicide: :suicide: :suicide: I see it is the 10 year reunion for Elian Rodriquiz, maybe Don Knotts will come back from the dead, Dick Chaney will become a Democrat, maybe Ron Paul became president after all.

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Comments (http://http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-5378668-504083.html) left for the above article, "Sweat Lodge Death Investigation Turns to Self-Help Guru James Arthur Ray (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=28923&p=368658#p368544)" (by Neil Katz; Oct. 12, 2009; Crimesider):

• by RenHombre October 12, 2009 1:41 PM EDT
It was just a matter of time before a disaster of this magnitude occurred. There are too many "white men playing Indians" today, and putting lots of unassuming people at risk.

Having been in sweat lodges run by QUALIFIED Native American elders, I know it is outright dangerous to put 60 people in a dark sweat lodge because there's no way to keep track of everyone, nor regulate the steam in a safe way (even if they had the right lodge coverings, which they clearly didn't).

It's no surprise the investigation is now on James Arthur Ray...negligence seems so apparent, and meanwhile, his ego and aggressive self marketing tactics are out there on the Web for everyone to see.

I would be fine if this guy would simply stay on a hotel stage like the rest of the self-help gurus, and take the easy money that comes their way from the new-age 'searchers.'

However, it's appalling to me that a guy like Ray can hijack once-sacred rituals of Native Americans and charge $10,000 for a retreat that is based on them.
• by meroe_9 October 12, 2009 10:48 PM EDT
Sweat Lodge is a sacred tradition of many indigenous cultures (including Eastern European). It is not exclusive to Native Americans. I am of Native American descent and I accept the coming together of all of my brothers and sisters no matter what race they are incarnated into.

I do feel a great loss because of this tragedy. This was a poorly thought out and executed event that lead to devastating consequences.
• by LightInformation October 14, 2009 9:41 AM EDT
I believe we all have essential and meaningful, and unique gifts to give and share with others in this life - gifts that are authentically ours - gifts we are born with, gifts we are given. I feel it is our responsibility to use these gifts for the increase of love, of awareness, of healing, and of connection.

This is a story of someone allowing their innate gifts to be guided by their lower nature and this always causes harm.

My heart goes out to all the loving, wonderful, open-hearted people who were impacted by this event - especially the attendees and their families, and those left behind the people who left their bodies.

They have provided such an important gift for all of us in the ending of their lives...Be fearless and follow the Knowingness of your OWN Heart, be guided by that which expands love and healing. Take your power back from those who seek to exploit you in the name of spiritual evolution or financial freedom, or whatever the buzzword of the day is!

It is so very revealing to see how people respond to tragic events we are responsible for creating...

how we respond essentially reveals our level of consciousness and our ability to live our Love, our Connection.

If I were pretending to be a GURU and "my followers" were willing to trust me to guide them into their transformation - I would stand by their side, regardless of the circumstances I created that actually led to people dying. I cannot believe that James would text such awful, disconnected, harmful responses to the tragedy that he caused -

Did you see the tweets that James left the night that his followers died?

These were posted on James Arthur Ray?s Twitter account during the Spiritual Warrior Event WHICH HE TRIED TO DELETE! Yet, these tweets can still be found on searching twitter!

"JamesARay: is still in Spiritual Warrior... for anything new to live something first must die. What needs to die in you so that new life can emerge?"

THIS WAS HIS TWEET THE NIGHT THAT HIS EVENT KILLED TWO PEOPLE! AND INJURED NEARLY 1/3 OF HIS "FOLLOWERS." Sounds like he was sitting comfortably in his hotel room while he left more than 60 of his followers traumatized, several- 29 or so injured and in the hospital, and two dead. He went to the comfort of his hotel, and his dis-connected mind to spout "spiritual" things - in complete denial of the damage he created!

" JamesARay: Day 5 of SPW. The Spiritual Warrior has conquered death and therefore has no enemies, and no fear, in this life or the next."

" JamesARay: SPW day 4. Your actions often speak louder than your words. A life of honor is living you values above and beyond your moods."

IF JAMES HAD ANY CONSCIOUSNESS OF LOVE WITHIN HIM HE WOULD HAVE REFUSED TO FOLLOW HIS FEAR AND REPTILIAN BRAIN INSTINCTS TO FLEE THE SCENE, ABANDON HIS FOLLOWERS AND TO GO INTO SPOUTING SPIRITUAL MUMBO-JUMBO AS YOU CAN SEE AND FEEL FROM HIS TWEETS THE NIGHT OF HIS SO-CALLED "SPIRITUAL WARRIOR" TRAINING.

IT IS SO EASY TO SAY "that was their destiny, they created their reality."

Yet, also just as true is the REALITY CHECK lesson that a charasmatic con-man who manipulates people into following him...his "wisdom"...his teaching...his program- promising innocent, vulnerable, good-hearted people that they will receive an end to their pain, a solution to their problems, a transformed life with higher brainwave frequencies, and "financial freedom!" all in the name of feeding his already ridiculous sense of masculine "power" or rather - force equating to dominance, control and the illusion of power.

listen to your own heart...dear Ones reading this!

follow the Knowingness within.

allow your self to be your own savior - as in the end it is only you who can save you and all the "leaders" will abandon you - just when you need them most! They are not here to protect you, save you, help you - they are here to get energy from you to fuel their ego dominant intentions - masked as "spiritual wisdom"

All is revealed through consciousness...and is palpably evident in response to the events they set in motion.
[/list]
• by jntlw October 12, 2009 1:46 PM EDT
Any guru or preacher who professes to teach you the "how to get wealthy' is a crock. If you are a Chrisitan, money is not your goal and should never be first and foremost. These people were paying to get rich through some bogus guru offering bogus theories and methods and they end up dead. Stop looking to get rich and just be happy in life and work and produce at that which pleases you most and helps society - that is true riches.
• by Cheryl_Laures October 13, 2009 7:39 PM EDT
So very true... someone teaching "Spiritual Precepts" is not all about "show me the money." However, Mr. Ray certainly thought his "brain-child-teachings" were worth 10K... probably because HE is so focused on the money. hummmm... makes you wonder just how altruistic and pure are his intentions.

His intentions seem rather ego-based to me. I've watched him from the sidelines and the "halo-effect" of media attention he received after The Secret was released. And I have only one comment about that, "Pride doth go before a fall."

As for the safety of his 10K program... As an RN I must say that the RN he hired definitely missed the mark on the schedule of events in the first place. You just DON'T have people fast for 36 hours, give them a buffet breakfast and expect the body to normalize itself after 36 hours of deprivation. Let alone... subject the body to profusely sweating in extreme heat, which pushes the body even further out of balance.

Sweat lodges or steam saunas are best tolerated when someone is well nourished and more than sufficiently hydrated... in order to tolerate the profound loss of fluids.

I would guess these folks got in a situation of electrolyte compromise along with their core temperature rising too high for way too long. TWO HOURS?... good grief!

And as a Spirit centered person, I think my biggest grief is that Mr. Ray hasn't even said he's sorry, or asked for forgiveness of the public on his Twitter posts. No.. instead he's still being the "guru" suggesting everyone join him in meditation. I guess asking for forgiveness would indicate blame and he doesn't want to incriminate himself.

It's a shame that he's so very willing to fleece people of 10K yet not take responsibility for his actions.

An author of a book, or cast member in a movie does NOT a Spiritual Adept make. Buyer beware, for there are many like this prowling the market, on the internet and elsewhere.
• by hogi2 October 20, 2009 11:58 PM EDT
Being a Christian has nothing to do with this.
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• by all_father October 12, 2009 2:34 PM EDT
The numbers here are shocking. 60 people in a sweat room with less volume than a small living room! Someone needs to go to jail for this catastrophe. And Ray is first, followed by the Hamiltons. Sad, too, that the participants didn't think about their risk... proof positive that trusting any "guru" can be deadly.
• by Awakened1 October 12, 2009 2:53 PM EDT
That's really sad. I knew that guy had bad karma written all over him. Just goes to show you that the "powers that be" don't like it when someone uses their spiritual awareness and rapport w/ people to take advantage of what's supposed to be the most sacred side of people. I hope James Ray has gotten his "message" through meditation he was seeking. Maybe if he stepped outside of himself or his ego for a moment, he would see it plain as day. Come on....9 to 10 GRAND for a spiritual weekend retreat??? 65 people = $650,000! I have also learned that NO ONE should conduct a "sweat" unless they are Native American or have a tribe's blessing to do so and are being assisted. Some Native American's don't do it until they are "called" to. I do have to say, he had it coming to him...James Ray that is. Those people gave their lives, I hope he learns the lesson that they sacrificed themselves for him to learn.
• by kwhitecloud October 12, 2009 10:50 PM EDT
With that kind of money, one would think these people could have bought some blankets to cover the lodge and maybe a few cases of WATER.
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• by momofthreebo October 12, 2009 2:55 PM EDT
Self help guro, my butt...He is nothing but a money hungry idiot trying to make a pofit off sacred native traditions. My heart goes out to all the families involved.
• by TwistedFeather12 October 12, 2009 3:37 PM EDT
Writer has been working with sweats for over 20 years and have not seen a death. With saying this writer has worked with Elders and people have to know there is a protocol to follow with sweats. Many people use native spirituality as a quick fix to make money.The regultions of having a sweat are earned and having a great abundence of people in the lodge is unnatural. It is with great sadness to the families who have lost their loved ones for a quick fix society for false healing. Please leave the native culture to the First Nations Elders and to the right people who earn the sweat rights. If needing to have a sweat for health please go to a reservation and give tabacco and monetary gift to an Elder for help. Thank you
• by kwhitecloud October 12, 2009 10:45 PM EDT
Well Said.
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• by Thousandoaks October 12, 2009 7:22 PM EDT
This is a heartbreaking tragedy and all affected deserve our sympathy. And, yes it should be investigated to learn what went wrong. But accusing or imprisoning someone will not make it better. We aren't 'at risk' because someone hasn't been jailed in this event. Put your focus where it deserves to be; sympathy and support for those affected. Not on a lynching quest to find someone to sacrifice.
It is so easy to trivialize the leader of this event, and to jealously demonize his success. I'd suggest you first consult those who he has helped through all of his teaching. This event is tragic but it is not James Ray's teaching that caused the deaths.
There may have been negligence but it is doubtful that it was criminal or with malicious intent. And certainly it was not that way with James Ray or his team. These are good people who have been leading other people to lead more meaningful lives for years now. Stop the bloodlust and just help the healing begin. Now is not the time for hatred.
• by Ahaseheset October 12, 2009 8:02 PM EDT
He was selling sacred traditions! If his arrest and conviction would put more of these cultural thieves out of business...good!
Hasn't "American culture" taken away enough from the Indigenous people of this continent???
They used to jail NDN's for practicing their religion and put their children in boarding schools (that still exist in some areas) to "americanize" them, now these New Agers want to steal the very things the people were crucified for!!
Enough is enough!
• by JaclyneW October 12, 2009 10:28 PM EDT
I think you are forgetting that he lead the ceremony. Which means he was the LEADER!! which means he was negligent!! Which means, in the world today, that he will have to be accountable for his actions!!

And to add Rocks every 15 mins. This was no real sweat. Which means he made it up! Which means it was his IDEA, Which means he is responsible for not clearly thinking this through or getting proper advice for this event.

And to convince people into believing that they have to get through the heat of the sweat!! Something that never, ever would have been done with those who are trained in the REAL Ceremony, which has been done for Thousands of Years!! Means HE IS RESPONSIBLE.

IF the man is ignoring REALITY, he and his team Are Super Negligent, and it doesn't matter if it was there conscious intentions or NOT. Negligence is Negligence if you are working at it or not!

We can have all the compassion in the world for him. But he still has to be responsible for his actions, words and where he is taking people who are paying him in TRUST!!
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• by clhs2007 October 12, 2009 7:24 PM EDT
55-65 people? WOW; Paying for a sweat? Wow, I'm at a loss of words. One of the dumbest things thats ever happened!
• by Ahaseheset October 12, 2009 7:55 PM EDT
It was with great sadness that I read about the people who died in AZ in a sweat lodge run by an individual who was charging a fair amount of money to his victims.
No charges have been filed against this person.

Not that he intended for this to happen. Not at all. His intent was to help these people in spiritual health and his own capital gain.

The trouble is he was using HIS vision of what is a sacred Native American ceremony. Now people have suffered for his lack of respect of Native traditions.
He was selling those traditions as if they were some sort of of commodity. I wonder if he also offered Holy Communion and Confession complete with Rosary and the prescribed numbers of Hail Marys?? For these traditions and ceremonies must also be for sale, in his eyes.

About five years ago, Arvol Looking Horse, a bundle keeper for the Lakota people and several other medicine people, elders and bundle keepers for many nations decreed that Native American ceremony is for NATIVE AMERICANS.
You may be invited to attend, but the ceremony is to be conducted by NATIVE AMERICANS who are trained. They came to this conclusion after a similar tragedy happened in Redding, CA.

I absolutely agree with this decree by the Plains Nations elders.

STOP STEALING TRADITIONS! STOP SELLING TRADITIONS!!
• by apachepat07 October 14, 2009 1:45 PM EDT
you cant stop it. know matter what they say. White men will run all kinds of ceremonies. some for money some not. I agree but the question is how do we deal with the problem because like the life it will go on. Believe me I've seen it all living on the west coast. Just pray.
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• by parkrapidsmn October 12, 2009 8:39 PM EDT
This is not the first time someone has died at a James Arthur Ray seminar.

On July 26 of this year Colleen died during a James Arthur Ray Creating Absolute Wealth Seminar in San Diego. She had been emotionally broken down, starved and kept awake ungodly amounts of time. During a group "field trip" to Horton Plaza Mall she plunged to the floor from a third level railing.

Colleen was a happy and succcessful woman. Prior to her death she had absolutely never given any of her friends and co-workers any signs of suicidal thoughts/intentions. She was making future plans...had a positive outlook on life...and was completely healthy.

Colleen was brainwashed. She fell victim to Large Group Awareness Training. I believe James Arthur Ray and his company completely covered up their involvement in her death.

There must be others who have been injured ect. by James Arthur Ray either physically, financially or mentally...please, please, please contact officials and tell your story. This must be stopped before more people are hurt!
• by JaclyneW October 12, 2009 10:34 PM EDT
I also feel that the Retreat Center should be held accountable for allowing a sweat of that large to be RENTED out to participants of, obviously anyone, who want to rent their Center!!!

They obviously built the structure, and rented it to Mr. Ray. So in all actuality, they all should be accountable.
• by ChristopherBlackwell October 12, 2009 10:38 PM EDT
Another greedy spiritual con man who making money was more important than reasonable safety of his followers. Anyone with sense would never keep anyone in a sweat lodge for so long. Fools running sweat lodges can kill people and con men are always fools when chasing enrichment.

• by willwalden October 12, 2009 11:09 PM EDT
Like others here in Sedona I live here and was saddened and angered by this tragedy which could have been avoided. I spoke to some local nurses about this tragedy and they told me there is some sort of loophole in the law that requires only "minimal" medical coverage for an event of this type. Apparently all that is required is to have one nurse on call, and not even necessarily on site, and the organizers are covered according to the insurance companies that deal with this sort of event. $600,000 plus revenue went to the guy and ONE NURSE was paid to be available. No equipment, no ambulance, nothing - just one poor nurse left to deal with whatever happens. This also needs to be looked at and fixed before another one of these guys shows up here.
• by kwhitecloud October 12, 2009 11:21 PM EDT
I have been working with sweat lodges for more than two decades. I have never seen a death. My Uncle told of this twenty years ago when people begin to sell sage. There was a time my Brothers would have visited this place and asked them to stop...or....?
Someone running a business like this one in Arizona, offered me thousands of dollars to work for them. This was not the only "warrior camp" to try to solicit this writer. They are dangerous. As for the plastic covering, I would not stick my head into a trash bag and expect to breathe, not for any amount of money...these people did just that. Air, like Traditions should not be sold. Ten Grand is NOT going to manifest air in a trash bag. Obviously, this guy thought he could sell it, and sadly there were people that believed it could be purchased.
• by SotaMabaTanke October 14, 2009 5:08 PM EDT
AHO MITAKUYE OYASIN,Pilamia
Thank you couldnt have said it better(plastic???come on folks,this is pure neglegents
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• by kwhitecloud October 12, 2009 11:36 PM EDT
STOP SELLING TRADITIONS STOP SELLING TRADITIONS STOP SELLING TRADITIONS STOP SELLING TRADITIONS...that was four times. DOOR !
• by DeleneSC October 13, 2009 12:31 AM EDT
My husband and I took a $750. weekend course from James Ray (not this particular 5 day retreat) and it was wonderful. We were shocked and saddened as everyone here is. James has been doing these retreats (of which the sweat is just one part) since 2003. I think there was carelessness and mistakes were made (too many people and session was too long), leading to tragic results. It is very unfortunate for everyone involved and my heart goes out to the families of the 2 people who died.

However, James is not a greedy "bad" person. He truly wants to help people achieve their dreams, but humans DO make mistakes. Tragic of course, but don't assume he is necessarily a bad person who just things of money. I think people here are making assumptions without knowing of his otherwise incredible integrity and knowledge about many different traditions, not just Native American. I also feel for him too because I see how he has improved so many people's lives.

Our hearts go out to ALL those affected by those terrible mistakes~yes, even James Ray.
• by jewelz33 October 13, 2009 12:44 AM EDT
Well said DeleneSC!!
• by NikEst October 16, 2009 12:21 PM EDT
If what James Ray preached actually worked, there would be more people talking about it. Instead, we hear "I spent thousands and now I'm just thousands poorer". Please do not say something like "You have to work at it!" because while true, the work you work on should show a glimmer of success early or what you're doing is probably a waste of time.

Also, James Ray isn't rich by his preached scheme. His rich because he preaches the scheme. Funny, he doesn't preach that get rich quick idea. He may not be a "bad" person, but he is greedy. Charging thousands per person just so they can hear you talk is greedy. Imagine if teachers could do that, they'd finally be paid something resembling the impact they have on the world.
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• by jewelz33 October 13, 2009 12:42 AM EDT
I send out my prayers and sympathies to all affected by this horrible situation, especially to the families of those who died.

I have to say it really amazes me that people use their time and energy to write things like so many of the above posts - no one even has all of the facts...we hear and see what the news reports and it may or may not be accurate and we don't even know 100% what caused this tragedy yet other than what appears to be the case. America is about innocent until proven guilty and you all are not the people to decide guilt, that is what the police and law were created to do - so I say leave your condemnation to the proper authorities and use your energy for something POSITIVE and helpful! How about putting energy into something like saying prayers or meditating for all involved or investigating how to send sympathies or something to soothe the families affected or maybe see if there is anything else you can do or say to help this situation versus spewing out negative words and judgments...this world is full of people who focus on retribution or anger about things and that doesn't help any situation...what helps is people taking action to help others rather than using their anger and words for negative purposes!! We're all allowed an opinion but use your minds and opinions wisely based on concrete facts and for the best possible use of the mind we've all been given. Don't get me wrong, I say let justice be served accordingly but by the people who understand & have all of the facts and were hired to do so!
• by sshakeri02 October 13, 2009 4:06 AM EDT
Thank you everyone for your posts. My prayers go out to the victims and their loved ones. I am one of the naive ones who has paid tens of 1000s of $$$ to attend many seminars of James Ray. I now realize what a big mistake I made. I must say that he is very charismatic and the energy really sucks a person in, especially during one of his high energy, high entertainment value seminars. Tomorrow (Tuesday) I am going to one of his free events to ask for my money back for the seminars since I no longer feel the seminars are in the best interest of my wife or myself. I am one of the few in the James Ray follower camp who actually has an authentic spiritual teacher. I was warned by my spiritual teacher about people like James Ray, but I did not listen... at least until now. My wife and I were oh so very close to attending the "Spiritual Warrior" event. That is the only event we did not purchase. We almost did. I am going to ask for my money back for the seminars in lieu of the recent tragedy. I will be interested to see how he or his office treats my request. Yes, they have waivers that say you are not entitled to a refund after purchasing the seminars, but I will be interested to see whether they honor my request with all the media attention and how everyone is watching his every move now.

As my spiritual teacher said when I told him about the $1000s I spent on James Ray's seminars which utilizes techniques drawing on the inner world such as visualizations to achieve worldly success, "...using visualizations and other inner techniques to get money is like raping the inner world. The inner world is for connecting with the sacred and not for making money."

I believe we must learn to differentiate between authentic, pure spirituality and pseudo-spiritual self-help techniques. In addition, I think we need to realize that this New Age eclecticism and superficial intermingling of spiritual traditions is for show and constitutes nothing but ego-trips.

I'll let you all know how it goes tomorrow at the James Ray event.

Blessings to all!

Copyright 2010 by WISN.com.

Comments (http://http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-5378668-504083.html) left for the above article, "Sweat Lodge Death Investigation Turns to Self-Help Guru James Arthur Ray (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=28923&p=368658#p368544)" (by Neil Katz; Oct. 12, 2009; CBS News Crimesider), #s 31-60:

• by bj1285 October 13, 2009 12:29 PM EDT

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• by COURAGEOUSGURL October 13, 2009 4:22 AM EDT

Being of Native American decent myself I appreciate the customs and traditions of the culture. I know many people who do. But I do not know where to go to experience things like a sweat lodge. This weeklong event included this ceremony and knowing myself I would be compelled to want to experience that. Even if I had to pay money. It is not the ceremony itself that creates the experience but the gathering of like minded individuals and what they each bring to it. It is so beautiful the comments made about the individuals who tragically died in what was meant to be a spiritual cleansing, healing. How they are described is as caring, giving, loving, joyous, and successful people. This is why they were there... to continue their spiritual journey. It is very unfortunate that this tragedy happened. The investigations are ongoing and there are so many questions and accusations being made. Patience is needed to get all the answers and people are still healing from injuries and families still grieving. I'm sure what ever caused this tragedy was an accident and nothing malicious was intended. Keep in my The leader of the event and his staff was in the sweat lodge right along with everyone else. I know if I had been a witness to this tragedy I would feel... such a sense of loss, grief and would be raking my brain if I could have done something to prevent it. If I could have seen a sign, acted more swiftly, etc. I am sure all the people involved are feeling this and much more. Battling their own inner demons. Really who is harder on us, than ourselves? Would this keep me from participating in a sweat lodge? Nope, but I will listen to my own intuition as to what is best for my body as well as be sure to be well hydrated and take breaks when needed. Maybe if native americans put up spiritual retreats like they do casinos I could experience something more beneficial for my money than just a gamble. Really why not, I think that could be amazing.• by mastereric1 October 13, 2009 8:12 AM EDT

The wave became the particle.• by photolex October 13, 2009 10:34 AM EDT

Could James Ray be a bigger coward? Instead of cooperating with the investigation, he refuses to talk to the authorities and flees out of state. He wasn't even considerate enough to stay around to monitor the condition of those who were hospitalized.• by bj1285 October 13, 2009 12:25 PM EDT

• by rsnchk October 13, 2009 1:12 PM EDT

• by parkrapidsmn October 14, 2009 3:05 PM EDT

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• by Susinn October 13, 2009 1:04 PM EDT

eyeofthesoul@live.com

• by fastrunningdog October 13, 2009 5:44 PM EDT

• by LightInformation October 14, 2009 9:28 AM EDT

• by januaryguy October 14, 2009 12:39 PM EDT

• by rahan77 October 17, 2009 12:46 AM EDT

Well nice guy or not, two people are dead. Some poeple are responsible for what happened and as the leader James Arthur Ray is the most responsible. Being sorry is not enought. When you make a mistake that cause death, well being saddened doesn't excuse you. This is not speculation, this is right in front of your eyes. 2 people died. James Ray is responsible for the death of those people. I'm sure some other people have also to blame, but Jams Ray is the first person to blame. He had the final word, he took all final decisions. He was supposed to know what he was doing and yet it seems he didn't have the necessery permit, the sweat lodge was covered with plastic, with material that does not breathe. 64 people packet in this inferno for 2 hours... For this kind of mistake you can't say "He's a nice guy". It could have been easily avoided. It would be fair enought for him to do some time in jail.[/list]
• by Thousandoaks October 14, 2009 1:12 PM EDT

• by AConscience October 14, 2009 1:13 PM EDT

• by chiefmtn October 14, 2009 5:28 PM EDT

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• by apachepat07 October 14, 2009 1:56 PM EDT

• by SotaMabaTanke October 14, 2009 5:36 PM EDT

• by Mahtowa October 15, 2009 11:42 AM EDT

It is sad that these 3 people have pass due to one mans greed. As kids learning the inipee ceremonies we were always told never play with or miss use the lodge. guess he didnt learn that or believe it. Now the creator has given another new-ager/neoshaman the message DONT MISS USE OUR SACRED TEACHINGS!!!! This is not the first time some one has died in a ceremony due to miss use. I pray for the families of those who have died. Susinn and Mahiwo ne'eshte 'my prayer are with you in the morning sky. aho• by AniRoseWalker October 15, 2009 4:25 PM EDT

• by BenjaminRamsey October 15, 2009 10:13 PM EDT

• by NikEst October 16, 2009 12:14 PM EDT

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• by hogi2 October 15, 2009 8:30 PM EDT

As children we are taught never to put our head in a plastic bag...Why would someone put that many people in a plastic bag? You can see by the picture that the lodge was covered in plastic. What elder told him to do that? If he did not go to an elder to learn about running a sweat then what the heck was he doing? I have read that James Ray was a good guy. Maybe so. I do not know him. He did however, do this and needs to step up to the plate and take responsibility for what he did.

• by rahan77 October 16, 2009 8:58 PM EDT

I couldn't agree more with you. If the leader of the event won't take responsability who will? Maybe some other people have to take some part of responsability but he's the one people trusted and blindly followed, he's the most responsible. That in my opinion is a second degree murder. I saw The Secret and can you imagine that for a few weeks i actualy believed it until i reslised it was total crap?! Ask, believe, receive, it's that simple. Well what about hard work and resiliance? I'ts not enought to ask, believe and magically receive. Somehow you control, you master the universe. "Your wish is my command" says the universe. Well I'm sorry but I doesn't work like that. Of course positive thoughts helps, but many times in life things will happen despite your positive thoughts. Now what actions are you going to take to face the situation? See what happened at the retreat. Did he asked that, believed it then it happened? No, I think he was just careless. His focus was more on the profit. Was he even there during the ceremony? I thin The secret did more harm to poeple then helped them. Some people suddenly believe that the universe is at their command and make bad decisions. They might lose a lot of money in bad business or worse. It's very sad what happened and I hope that James Arthur Ary will stand up and assume his responsability.[/list]
• by dalai_bunny October 15, 2009 9:42 PM EDT

• by zintkala October 17, 2009 2:42 AM EDT

• by fmason1 October 23, 2009 4:11 PM EDT

Oprah is just as guilty as she promotes stuff to get paid too. She tells everyone how to be thin when shes fat herself haha. She is popular as she exploits the weak minded people of the country into believing she is their "hope" and if they do what she says they will succeed. She is very good at hypnosis and is making our country dumb and stupid. We need principles back of truth and nonsense and manipulation like this WILL END that's what age of Aquarius is all about and predicted this. All these things like this will end. Oprah promoted this clown and got paid she should have to pay out of her billion to help these people. She got to shut down the street for her show when people are dying in Chicago and of course rest of the world with no food in the food banks. If she cares so much about doing good why doesn't she go feed the needy and "help" them LEARN a profession or skills. None of these people care they are all capitalistic people and I personally believe capitalism is good as it allows competition and more advancements and opportunities but this is the other side of the coin and must be kept in check by getting people like this and Oprah away from weak public who gets manipulated by them. I really truly feel sad for weak minded people and never post on websites nor use any networking sites but when I read this I had to really respond. Dr. Phil who tells you how to have good relationships was obviously not successful himself. All these people are manipulators that's it but they are not completely at fault its these weak gullible people who make people like Oprah and Dr. Phil become who they are. This is a very sad time for our country as far as knowledge and growth goes, this country was built upon Masonic principles of knowledge and wisdom and freedom but now its more like China with a different title. This is truly very very sad and the American Education system should be very proud of what they have done to our youth as as well as the older generation.[/list]
• by AniRoseWalker October 17, 2009 3:28 PM EDT

"Benjamin Ramsey" may be pen name for James Arthur Ray... ha ha! I believe you may be right! That delusional rant about how the poor should "thank" the rich was really... rich. LMAO!!!• by AniRoseWalker October 17, 2009 3:38 PM EDT

• by Crowman7 October 17, 2009 7:06 PM EDT

The Native peoples performed these ceremonies using certian guidelines, including the size of the lodge. After countless centuries they had come pretty close to perfecting all aspects of the lodge, including the safety of the participants. I have attended and even poured at lodges, and I would never participate in one where it is not possible to keep tabs on the well being of all participants. It's hard to imagine a lodge that size. Obviously this could not have been done in the Lakota or any other Native American tradition.• by didiwinyet October 19, 2009 1:24 AM EDT

Quote from: "Ursus"

Comments (http://http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-5378668-504083.html) left for the above article, "Sweat Lodge Death Investigation Turns to Self-Help Guru James Arthur Ray (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=28923&p=368658#p368544)" (by Neil Katz; Oct. 12, 2009; Crimesider), #s 31-60:
• by LightInformation October 14, 2009 9:28 AM EDT
It is so very revealing to see how people respond to tragic events we are responsible for creating...

how we respond essentially reveals our level of consciousness and our ability to live our Love, our Connection.

If I were pretending to be a GURU and "my followers" were willing to trust me to guide them into their transformation - I would stand by their side, regardless of the circumstances I created that actually led to people dying. I cannot believe that James would text such awful, disconnected, harmful responses to the tragedy that he caused -

Did you see the tweets that James left the night that his followers died?

These were posted on James Arthur Ray?s Twitter account during the Spiritual Warrior Event WHICH HE TRIED TO DELETE! Yet, these tweets can still be found on searching twitter!

"JamesARay: is still in Spiritual Warrior... for anything new to live something first must die. What needs to die in you so that new life can emerge?" :eek: :eek:

THIS WAS HIS TWEET THE NIGHT THAT HIS EVENT KILLED TWO PEOPLE! AND INJURED NEARLY 1/3 OF HIS "FOLLOWERS." Sounds like he was sitting comfortably in his hotel room while he left more than 60 of his followers traumatized, several- 29 or so injured and in the hospital, and two dead. He went to the comfort of his hotel, and his dis-connected mind to spout "spiritual" things - in complete denial of the damage he created!

" JamesARay: Day 5 of SPW. The Spiritual Warrior has conquered death and therefore has no enemies, and no fear, in this life or the next."

" JamesARay: SPW day 4. Your actions often speak louder than your words. A life of honor is living you values above and beyond your moods."

IF JAMES HAD ANY CONSCIOUSNESS OF LOVE WITHIN HIM HE WOULD HAVE REFUSED TO FOLLOW HIS FEAR AND REPTILIAN BRAIN INSTINCTS TO FLEE THE SCENE, ABANDON HIS FOLLOWERS AND TO GO INTO SPOUTING SPIRITUAL MUMBO-JUMBO AS YOU CAN SEE AND FEEL FROM HIS TWEETS THE NIGHT OF HIS SO-CALLED "SPIRITUAL WARRIOR" TRAINING.

IT IS SO EASY TO SAY "that was their destiny, they created their reality."

Yet, also just as true is the REALITY CHECK lesson that a charasmatic con-man who manipulates people into following him...his "wisdom"...his teaching...his program- promising innocent, vulnerable, good-hearted people that they will receive an end to their pain, a solution to their problems, a transformed life with higher brainwave frequencies, and "financial freedom!" all in the name of feeding his already ridiculous sense of masculine "power" or rather - force equating to dominance, control and the illusion of power.

listen to your own heart...dear Ones reading this!

follow the Knowingness within.

allow your self to be your own savior - as in the end it is only you who can save you and all the "leaders" will abandon you - just when you need them most! They are not here to protect you, save you, help you - they are here to get energy from you to fuel their ego dominant intentions - masked as "spiritual wisdom"

All is revealed through consciousness...and is palpably evident in response to the events they set in motion.

Yep... This comment below (from that latest collection (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=28923&start=60#p371503)) set off some firing neurons for me! Geezz... Another commenter mentioned that it might even be James Ray himself posting under pseudonym, though I think that possibility might be a bit far-fetched... Or, maybe not! :D

Quote

• by BenjaminRamsey October 15, 2009 10:13 PM EDT
The situation with the deaths during the sweat ceremony in Arizona is certainly tragic, and I can't speak to the leader James Ray's personal integrity. But what's more tragic than the sad loss of those two people is the widespread belief that wealth is not created but only taken from others. It's called the "fixed size pie" belief, that there is only a fixed set of wealth in the world, one set "pie", and in order to have a large piece of the pie someone else has to have less. Nothing could be further from the truth!!! Almost ALL wealth is created! It's a natural offshoot of the miracle of exchange, both parties are better off (or the exchange wouldn't happen). The more business one perpetuates, the more economic growth occurs, and the better off EVERYONE is, including that person. If more people could understand how this works (and I admit it sometimes can be hard to see it), the world would be a much better place. It's part of why you never hear about anyone starving to death in America, the great wealth we've generated here, in the end, SAVES LIVES!!!

As I work to create wealth for me and my family, I don't take it away from anyone. I must offer, or exchange, MORE value than I receive, plain and simple. In order to earn a million dollars, I have to put out MORE than a million dollars worth of value. Thus the overall economy is better off. You see?

Here's a simple example: I want $1, so do some work by going into the forest and pick an apple and come back and sell it at the market for $1. Whoever buys that apple values it MORE than $1, which is why they decide it's better to give up the $1 and get the apple. Thus, in the economy, there is MORE value than there was before: the man has something worth MORE than a dollar, AND I have a dollar! If I want $100 I have to work to produce something worth MORE than $100 so that the market will gladly pay me $100 for that something. If I want $10,000 it might be hard to pick 10,000 apples, so maybe I'll come up with a plan to magnify my efforts. I could plant 100 apple trees, invent a new kind of apple picker tool, and hire 10 people to pick all the apples in a fraction of the time. They would all receive fair worker's wages they agree to, and I would get the benefit of having CREATED all the new value of all those apples to trade in the market.

The whole entire economy works like this, wealth is CREATED one dollar's worth at a time. The only time it doesn't work like this is when people TAKE, such as when they steal, or when they receive welfare checks, or when they use up community pot resources without paying for them, etc. Takers expect the government or the community to provide benefits for them, they complain a lot, and they come up with false ideas about how the rich are somehow causing them to be poor. BALONEY! The poor should THANK the rich, because without them they would be POORER than they already are! It's thanks to the richest men in history, men who CREATED LOTS OF WEALTH, that the whole economy is as good as it is. We aren't starving. We aren't dying of malaria by the thousands like in Africa. We aren't literally freezing to death or being killed off by mudslides and tsunamis like they are in the poor nations of the earth. Hurricane in Florida? We EVACUATE! We have cars! We don't stay in little mud huts to die. It's mostly thanks to all the wealth which has been CREATED over the decades and centuries by entrepreneurs and businessmen. They are our greatest saving angels.

Almost all wealth is created. We should strive to create as much as we can, for ourselves and our families, and at the same time for the overall economies of the world, which helps everyone live longer happier lives.

This "JasonDaro" commenter is a real piece of work... :clown:

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Comments (http://http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-5378668-504083.html) left for the above article, "Sweat Lodge Death Investigation Turns to Self-Help Guru James Arthur Ray (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=28923&p=368658#p368544)" (by Neil Katz; Oct. 12, 2009; CBS News Crimesider), #s 61-90:

• by NewAgeRage October 19, 2009 2:05 AM EDT

Coming from someone who was deep into this New Age stuff at one time, I can really see this kind of thing happening. I read a comment from someone who had been there and he said that he was sad for the families of those who died but that he believed that they have chosen to die this way. This is the kind of garbage brain-washing that you commonly find in these types of settings. What the Secret people don't tell you is that they believe that every single thing that happens to you has been chosen by you....and that includes everything terrible. They insist that people who got raped chose to be raped. There are all sorts of sick and distorted ways of putting it. They will say things like "They signed a soul contract to be raped before they were born" or "They must have been the rapist's rapist in a past life." or "They chose it so that their soul could learn." or just the simple old "It's their karma" thing. The profound degree of cruelty, smugness, cold-heartedness, and spiritual superiority in the New Age movement was shocking to me. I had a friend who developed breast cancer and a so-called healer said to her "So what do you think you may have done to create this cancer in your life?" with a supposed loving tone of voice. This is some sick crap. I got out but not after an almost life-threatening depression. As for the guy who has no compassion for people who pay for this I can tell you that once you get sucked in it can be very confusing and hard to get out. The wealthy ones float through these programs and get special treatment from the leaders who are highly skilled at recognizing those with big cash flow and who will sign up for more future events, classes, retreats, etc...I am feeling strongly that this self help guru is sitting in meditation somewhere convincing himself that this whole thing is meant to teach something to the world and that he is the chosen messenger or "channel" for this great teaching.• by synaya October 19, 2009 2:48 AM EDT

A MESSAGE FOR JAMES RAY since his blog is blocked for comment: The recent Sweat Lodge incident reveals 5 areas of "Disharmonic" Wealth.....1) SPIRITUAL Arrogance, 2) FINANCIAL Greed, 3) MENTAL Manipulation, 4) PHYSICAL Lack of Safety, and 5) RELATIONAL Irresponsibility. James, why did you CHOOSE to run from the scene when your loyal participants - your JRI family - needed you most? Your actions speak louder than words. You exhibited self-centered preservation and lacked being a responsible and compassionate leader in the face of adversity. I'm still in shock and I wasn't even there. As a former participant of four workshops, I stopped attending upon sensing the dark energies of greed and arrogance taking over. I'm glad I trusted my intuition. Please know I do wish you well James because, despite these words, deep inside I know you are a good man on your spiritual path of learning and maturing... and quite frankly, this incident is a MAJOR wake up call. Regarding your deleted twitter message.....What in YOU, James Arthur Ray, needs to die in order for new life to emerge???? My deepest compassion and sympathy goes to the participants who trusted you and unknowingly were in harms way. Blessings to all involved on your journeys to harmonic health and healing. May truth, light and personal integrity prevail. Blessings.

• by cicibaby09 October 20, 2009 1:01 PM EDT

• by susannahsss October 20, 2009 9:04 PM EDT

Wow...thank you for saying all you did. I attended one of his seminars in San Diego Aug. 2008 and so much of what he said was great. But I do agree with all you said. I paid a lot of money and was trying to look past all the pressure etc. and get something out of the weekend. I had a great time. But, he became a little dark at the end (crying and all - just dark and weird) and I chose not to attend another one. I lost two friends at that seminar and two girls went home and asked for a divorce. I got the feeling James thinks he's (or wants to be) God. I got so much out of that weekend - I now completely understand that there is truly only one God. And I am going to save a lot of money and stick with Him!![/list]
• by arielne October 19, 2009 1:04 PM EDT

This is very frustrating.i am a native woman who has been raised aroud ceremony. this was the result of ignorance and greed. these people were exploited by someone who was uneducated and selfish. in my culture the men and women who run sweats have earned that position, trained thoroughly to properly lead our people through ceremonies.

• by sbendana October 21, 2009 9:38 AM EDT

Very well said Synaya! I stopped going to Jame's events a year ago when he turned the last one I attended, on a pure marketing campaign, very greedy and arrogant. Thanks, Sergio.[/list]
• by susannahsss October 20, 2009 9:05 PM EDT

I attended one of his seminars in San Diego Aug. 2008 and so much of what he said was great. I paid a lot of money and was trying to look past all the pressure etc. and get something out of the weekend. I had a great time. But, he became a little dark at the end (crying and all - just dark and weird) and I chose not to attend another one. I lost two friends at that seminar and two girls went home and asked for a divorce. I got the feeling James thinks he's (or wants to be) God. I got so much out of that weekend - I now completely understand that there is truly only one God. And I am going to save a lot of money and stick with Him!!• by BrooklynBombshell October 22, 2009 3:35 AM EDT

Clearly then, when he goes to jail, it's because he signed a contract to do so before he came down. OK, James, time to fulfill your part in this play called life. Get your soap on a rope....• by seeker108 October 22, 2009 12:38 PM EDT

• by rbaldwin143 October 22, 2009 2:16 PM EDT

Why would anyone think it is okay to restrict air to sixty people inside an enclosed heated structure? What a terrible tragedy and how dare you James Ray for leading this type of event.• by JensComments October 30, 2009 6:02 PM EDT

Perfect! Love the insight!!![/list]
• by fmason1 October 23, 2009 3:52 PM EDT

• by JasonDaro November 8, 2009 7:38 PM EST

• by JasonDaro November 8, 2009 7:47 PM EST

[/list]
• by fmason1 October 23, 2009 4:02 PM EDT

• by mjnaus October 23, 2009 6:46 PM EDT

This Arizona sweat lodge ceremony was another "hidden death trap"(the title of my book) which can be researched on amazon.com. Safety standards for hyperthermia were nowhere in place. My brother drowned in a hotel jetted bathtub from hyperthermia because the water temperature when he climbed in was 114 degrees fahrenheit. There were no safety standards in the hotel room warning of the impending hazard of hyperthermia due to an extended exposure in this tub. Those participants were in the sweat lodge too long.• by believerinHim October 26, 2009 11:39 PM EDT

There are many tragedies here, including fmason1. It's obvious that someone who is so determined to disprove God exists is simply insecure of himself and his eternity. That's ok, faith takes a strong person and a personal relationship with our Creator. Many like you have found their salvation after years or even a lifetime of defiance, such defiance being so lengthy simply for attention. It's there for you as it is for all who accept Him in their lives! I wish you well in whichever you choose, hoping of course you at least seek Him earnestly before completely writing Him off.• by JensComments October 30, 2009 5:47 PM EDT

• by JasonDaro November 8, 2009 3:24 PM EST

[/list]
• by yellow_haired_yankton October 31, 2009 1:40 AM EDT

I am a proud native american and take full offence as to what this group of individuals has done! Being Native I have gone through sweat lodge, and never have I, nor would I believe in a man that tries to teach wealth through sweat. Sweat is one of our most holiest rituals. To go through sweat, one must be prepared to expierence new and sometimes challenging moments, but by no means are we EVER encouraged to stay the entire time! Truthfully during sweat with the proper guidence, (Either a medicine man/woman or shaman), you are informed "should you feel the need to leave the sweat speak up, and a door (opening of the entrance) will occur". The reason for leaving is that, if you should become overwhelmed by the heat or anything else that may affect you, your prayer has been heard by the creator or GOD (to those of different religion).You would do no good by trying to prove, to either yourself or another, that you can "make it through". For a person that has no regard for the spiritual aspect of the sweat to do such an atrocity as to pose as a person that should be followed, because of wealth, deserves to be handled by the creator himself! I am in no position to judge the individual but will say here and now," James Ray you have misused our sacred ceremony to better yourself at the expense of those who have reached out to you in guidence.Wwith this knowledge and belief you shall come into your own demise!" By no means do I discredit the people involved that have lost their lives and been returned to the creator. I believe that we all shall learn from this one mans misuse of such a sacred ceremony and the loss of the innocents that had occured. To all my brothers and sisters, anties and uncles, grandmothers and grandfathers, mothers, and fathers, I ask that if you find a person doing something so mischievous as to prey on the needs of a person that may need the guidence of a REAL teacher, STOP THEM! There are many REAL guides in life, but one you have to pay for their knowledge, is not a guide but more a prankster (Coyote or Spider in many Native beliefs). Pranksters will harm you, while guides will help you learn from within. To the families that have been hurt or affected by this group or man I say "To all my relatives I pray, To the North, South, West, East, mother earth and the creator, watch over the people harmed by this one mans and groups ignorance!, Aho!"

• by darbunny October 31, 2009 2:56 AM EDT

YOU HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD YHF!!!! YOU PUT THAT BAD KARMA OUT THERE YOU SHOULD EXPECT BAD KARMA BACK!!!! HE IS A MURDERER N THE WORST FORM OF A TEACHER!!! THE CREATOR WILL SURELY TAKE CARE OF HIM IN THE HEREAFTER!!!!I AM SURE EVERY NATIVE AMERICAN OUT THERE IS ASHAMED OF WHAT HE HAS DONE!!!!!AS I AM MYSELF!!I FEEL FOR THOSE FAMILIES AS WELL....THEY ARE IN A FAR BETTER PLACE THAN WHAT TOOK THEM THERE!!!!• by JasonDaro November 8, 2009 3:12 PM EST

[/list]
• by LaurahLMT October 31, 2009 1:49 PM EDT

• by KThundercloud November 4, 2009 5:41 PM EST

For the record, Natives NEVER sell our spirituality. Charging 8 to 10 grand just verifies this guy is a hoax that has stolen our heritage, and unfortunately, incorrectly. At best this man is guilty of reckless endangerment. So, why hasn't he been arrested? Had it been some not so rich person doing this same thing, they would have been tried and convicte by now. Why was he allowed to run from the scene of his crime, and twitter away? Justice for his victims MUST be sought. He is nothing but a myrderer. For anyone considering any type of Native American ceremony, remember we don't sell it, we share it.

• by JasonDaro November 8, 2009 2:59 PM EST

How much money James Arthur Ray charges is not the issue. He is not forcing anyone to pay it. The issue here is what he does with the money. That is the issue he must deal with as he faces eternity. It is not my business OR YOURS to play God and judge the man. We don't know all the facts and would do well to wish him all the very best so that all the very best will come back around for us[/list]
• by JasonDaro November 5, 2009 4:44 PM EST

• by JasonDaro November 5, 2009 5:52 PM EST

• by JasonDaro November 6, 2009 3:02 AM EST

• by JasonDaro November 6, 2009 6:05 PM EST

• by JasonDaro November 6, 2009 6:12 PM EST

:poison:

Quote from: "Ursus"

Yep... This comment below (from that latest collection (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=28923&start=60#p371503)) set off some firing neurons for me! Geezz... Another commenter mentioned that it might even be James Ray himself posting under pseudonym, though I think that possibility might be a bit far-fetched... Or, maybe not! :D

Quote
• by BenjaminRamsey October 15, 2009 10:13 PM EDT
The situation with the deaths during the sweat ceremony in Arizona is certainly tragic, and I can't speak to the leader James Ray's personal integrity. But what's more tragic than the sad loss of those two people is the widespread belief that wealth is not created but only taken from others. It's called the "fixed size pie" belief, that there is only a fixed set of wealth in the world, one set "pie", and in order to have a large piece of the pie someone else has to have less. Nothing could be further from the truth!!! Almost ALL wealth is created! It's a natural offshoot of the miracle of exchange, both parties are better off (or the exchange wouldn't happen). The more business one perpetuates, the more economic growth occurs, and the better off EVERYONE is, including that person. If more people could understand how this works (and I admit it sometimes can be hard to see it), the world would be a much better place. It's part of why you never hear about anyone starving to death in America, the great wealth we've generated here, in the end, SAVES LIVES!!!

As I work to create wealth for me and my family, I don't take it away from anyone. I must offer, or exchange, MORE value than I receive, plain and simple. In order to earn a million dollars, I have to put out MORE than a million dollars worth of value. Thus the overall economy is better off. You see?

Here's a simple example: I want $1, so do some work by going into the forest and pick an apple and come back and sell it at the market for $1. Whoever buys that apple values it MORE than $1, which is why they decide it's better to give up the $1 and get the apple. Thus, in the economy, there is MORE value than there was before: the man has something worth MORE than a dollar, AND I have a dollar! If I want $100 I have to work to produce something worth MORE than $100 so that the market will gladly pay me $100 for that something. If I want $10,000 it might be hard to pick 10,000 apples, so maybe I'll come up with a plan to magnify my efforts. I could plant 100 apple trees, invent a new kind of apple picker tool, and hire 10 people to pick all the apples in a fraction of the time. They would all receive fair worker's wages they agree to, and I would get the benefit of having CREATED all the new value of all those apples to trade in the market.

The whole entire economy works like this, wealth is CREATED one dollar's worth at a time. The only time it doesn't work like this is when people TAKE, such as when they steal, or when they receive welfare checks, or when they use up community pot resources without paying for them, etc. Takers expect the government or the community to provide benefits for them, they complain a lot, and they come up with false ideas about how the rich are somehow causing them to be poor. BALONEY! The poor should THANK the rich, because without them they would be POORER than they already are! It's thanks to the richest men in history, men who CREATED LOTS OF WEALTH, that the whole economy is as good as it is. We aren't starving. We aren't dying of malaria by the thousands like in Africa. We aren't literally freezing to death or being killed off by mudslides and tsunamis like they are in the poor nations of the earth. Hurricane in Florida? We EVACUATE! We have cars! We don't stay in little mud huts to die. It's mostly thanks to all the wealth which has been CREATED over the decades and centuries by entrepreneurs and businessmen. They are our greatest saving angels.

Almost all wealth is created. We should strive to create as much as we can, for ourselves and our families, and at the same time for the overall economies of the world, which helps everyone live longer happier lives.

Ursus where are the articles that praise this man, did we lose them by mistake??????? Hhhhmmmmm.........

Same place as Ed Gein's fan club.

Quote from: "Pile of Dead Kids"

Same place as Ed Gein's fan club.

Man that dude was spooky, can't believe you would even think of him.

Quote from: "DannyB II"

Ursus where are the articles that praise this man, did we lose them by mistake??????? Hhhhmmmmm.........

Nope. I guess there aren't any. At least not in the main stream media.

Myself, I would looooovee posting examples of hardcore kool-aid guzzlers sousing it up. I guess those folk keep kinda quiet once their brethren-in-spirit start dropping off like flies ... on the spiritual warrior barbecue of life! Can't say that I blame them.

Danny, we're posting on a forum which prominently features parents willingly sending their own children to total isolation a thousand miles away, with extremely limited contact, to people with obviously sadistic goals, whose notion of what makes good therapy is like Jeffrey Dahmer's notion of what makes a good lunch.

And this particular topic features people doing it to themselves, willingly sitting in a sauna until they died of heat exhaustion.

Maybe it's just because it's been in so many movies, but Ed Gein's brand of crazy seems tame and textbook by comparison.

Quote from: "Pile of Dead Kids"

Danny, we're posting on a forum which prominently features parents willingly sending their own children to total isolation a thousand miles away, with extremely limited contact, to people with obviously sadistic goals, whose notion of what makes good therapy is like Jeffrey Dahmer's notion of what makes a good lunch.

And this particular topic features people doing it to themselves, willingly sitting in a sauna until they died of heat exhaustion.

Maybe it's just because it's been in so many movies, but Ed Gein's brand of crazy seems tame and textbook by comparison.

Ah, Pile, but Danny is a Spiritual Warrior... He did the New Warrior Training Adventure. :D

That is, at least one of the personages who posts under Danny's name claims to have done so...

He also dragged a girl behind his car, which probably makes him about average for the participants.

Quote from: "Pile of Dead Kids"

Danny, we're posting on a forum which prominently features parents willingly sending their own children to total isolation a thousand miles away, with extremely limited contact, to people with obviously sadistic goals, whose notion of what makes good therapy is like Jeffrey Dahmer's notion of what makes a good lunch.

And this particular topic features people doing it to themselves, willingly sitting in a sauna until they died of heat exhaustion.

Maybe it's just because it's been in so many movies, but Ed Gein's brand of crazy seems tame and textbook by comparison.

All this talk of Jeffery Dahmer and Ed Gein just creeps me out. I have sat in many of saunas and sweat lodges, people have died of heat stroke and heart attacks not necessarily when I have been there. So this is not some extraordinary circumstance, my friends.

Ah, so people self-Darwinating is normal. Okay. Carry on, then.

Hey, did you know that sitting around and having a chat at the lip of an extra-large, always-running meatgrinder is therapeutic?

Some more over-the-top vehemence offered by the Jason Daro character, also some interesting material quoted from one of the police interviews re. folks' possibly conscious attempts to have "out of body experiences" during James Ray's retreats...

-------------- • -------------- • --------------

Comments (http://http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-5378668-504083.html) left for the above article, "Sweat Lodge Death Investigation Turns to Self-Help Guru James Arthur Ray (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=28923&p=368658#p368544)" (by Neil Katz; Oct. 12, 2009; CBS News Crimesider), #s 91-118:

• by JasonDaro November 6, 2009 6:17 PM EST

• by JasonDaro November 6, 2009 6:39 PM EST

• by 281ballaz November 7, 2009 7:11 PM EST

• by JasonDaro November 8, 2009 1:55 AM EST

• by JasonDaro November 8, 2009 2:06 AM EST

• by JasonDaro November 8, 2009 2:19 AM EST

[/list]
• by JasonDaro November 8, 2009 1:07 PM EST

• by JasonDaro November 8, 2009 11:22 PM EST

• by CrystalGingras November 23, 2009 4:44 PM EST

Make sure if you are attending a "Sweat Lodge", or Native American Ceremony, that the "Leader" is taught by a traditional leader, that they are strong, honest, and practice the traditional ways. That you may offer him sacred tobacco, that they are a pipe carrier, and one is present and offered at Ceremony, that there is no money involved, and this person leading the Ceremony shall know when you need help, or a door opened, or water at the moment you do without words, I hope that the people sacrificed in this wooden, life-changing dome, that has been called a Sweat Lodge can move on in a good-way and help to save the lives, time and in this case, money of many others. Do not pay money for any Native American Ceremonies. At most, the people will pitch in and pay for travel expenses for an elder to come from another state or Canada, but traditionally you offer sacred tobacco, or other Medicines such as sage, sweetgrass and water. Love to the thousands hurt, angered and loved ones mourning. There are many Native American Elders alive and the culture is not dead. People are just informed and feel that this is the only way to experince, or to change thier life. There is tradition and there is a reason why it exists. Crystal Gingras. Wichita, KS.• by belgianwaffle February 8, 2010 1:30 PM EST

I totally agree with the fact that we need to look at the evidence before making any judgements. To what I have heard so far, and forgive me but I live in Europe and do not get the news as you guys do back in the US, is that out of the 55 people or so who attended that retreat, and after being told the risks of participating in the sweat lodge ceremony, 1) they signed a waver,2)one participant chose not to take part in it, 3) 20 of them came out of the sweat lodge, and 4) 5 of them chose to get back in. 6) It was a tent, not a room with a locked door...and finally, that guy was not pointing a gun at them. Added to that, these people were educated adults. I am still waiting to find out the rest of it but based on these first pieces of information...at no time did he force anyone to stay in nor to even participate.So at what point should he be considered a criminal? I am a 39 year old mom, and have been studying martial arts for as long as I can remember. My grand masters come from Japan and Korea...they always push us behond our limits. But regardless of how much respect I have for each of them, I never do anything I don't feel ready to do. Added to that, there were 55 people in that tent. When the first one passed out, why didn't the others do something if they knew something was wrong? If you look at that...everybody is as guilty as James ray! Anyway, many questions need to be answered and we all need to wait and see what will come out in court. But I do feel very sorry for the three people who died, and for their families. May they rest in peace!• by JasonDaro February 27, 2010 3:10 AM EST

• by Green582 March 19, 2010 3:40 PM EDT

People...you need to be aware that this "JasonDaro" person is also on many other sites about James Arthur Ray..."Lee Kuan", aka "LeeMajorMinor", aka "Lee Majorbig", aka "JasonDaro".....he cuts & pastes the same messages over and over...he has been banned form NYM site for rude,offensive, and threatening posts.....your best bet will be to ignore him....• by JasonDaro March 19, 2010 9:57 PM EDT

http://www.thoughts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32971 (http://www.thoughts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32971)[/list]
• by JasonDaro March 20, 2010 12:46 AM EDT

• by JasonDaro March 20, 2010 8:37 PM EDT

• by JasonDaro March 23, 2010 7:10 PM EDT

http://jamesray.com/docs/White_Paper_No._1.PDF (http://jamesray.com/docs/White_Paper_No._1.PDF)

?2 The reasons for this tragic accident may never be known, in part because we understand that Angel Valley subsequently destroyed the sweat lodge structure and coverings and buried the stones used in the ceremony. The loss of this critical environmental information may render determining the exact cause of death impossible, and the loss of this critical evidence from any ?crime scene? would itself undermine and criminal charges against Mr. Ray.?

MY RESPONSE:

WHAT????? The authorities investigating this case did not confiscate exhibit A???

The yokels in charge of this criminal investigation are going to have a very difficult time explaining to the judge why they did not confiscate EXHIBIT A, in this Sedona investigation, and allowed the OBVIOUSLY GULITY PARTY which is ANGEL VALLEY to destroy the evidence.

ANGEL VALLEY constructed that sweat lodge, not James Arthur Ray, and Angel Valley apparently destroyed the evidence OBVIOUSLY because they knew if they did not THEY would be proven the guilty party in this criminal investigation!

Can you imagine what the media would have said if James Arthur Ray was caught destroying exhibit A in the Sedona criminal investigation? We would still be hearing the repercussions all over the media. So, you who are so vocal about guilt in this matter consider that ANGEL VALLEY destroyed the evidence. Why? Because THEY are obviously the guilty party in the Sedona tragedy. If they were completely innocent in this matter they would NOT have destroyed exhibit A in this criminal investigation.

Those in charge of this criminal investigation are going to really get in trouble for not confiscating that evidence. You can bet they will! It?s going to be very (((VERY))) embarrassing for them as they try to explain why they did not confiscate the evidence and allowed the obviously guilty party, in this tragedy (Angel Valley), to destroy that evidence.

It?s going to be brutal! I hope they televise the trial so we can all watch those idiots trying to explain to the judge why they did not confiscate exhibit A as evidence and allowed Angel Valley to destroy it.[/list]
• by JasonDaro March 25, 2010 12:57 PM EDT

• by Green582 April 16, 2010 8:27 AM EDT

Lee Kuan is JasonDaro...he uses many other identities in many different forums and web site..LeeMajorMinor, Joseph Larch, LeeMajorBig....this is Lee Kuan...he has been banned from many forums.....offensive language, and threatening posts to other posters.....• by JasonDaro May 21, 2010 5:15 PM EDT

• by Green582 June 12, 2010 6:23 PM EDT

• by lltosta June 12, 2010 7:40 PM EDT

I read the comment that Mr. Ray stated he was like a coach to his people in the sweat lodge in the same way a marathoner has a coach, well he may have not intentionally murdered those people but he did not have a trained medical staff waiting outside the sweat lodge. It is disturbing that he did not do everything in his power to assist his people. I believe in the court of popular opinion the majority of people see him as a charlatan and will avoid his products and his advice.• by Green582 June 13, 2010 7:37 AM EDT

• by royalbow June 13, 2010 12:21 PM EDT

'The Secret' is that these and many other folks paid a snake oil salesman for $10K worth of 'enlightenment' and he's been laughing (and some crying I'd hope/suppose) all the way to the bank. I wouldnt suggest anything intentional for sure, but this seems like a Jim Jones scenario to me.. brainwashing of needy lemmings. If you need some real enlightenment, how about helping others - volunteer for a charity, etc, instead of spending your $10K on personal and self-centered 'fulfillment'. Geez. No offense intended - but you follow a gentleman like this and you get what you get. He's preyed on the weakness of the human condition for years, and now it's exposed. Anyone really surprised?• by catbyte June 18, 2010 1:59 PM EDT

• by weawakshte June 18, 2010 3:28 PM EDT

• by weawakshte June 18, 2010 3:37 PM EDT

• by weawakshte June 18, 2010 3:50 PM EDT

PS His chant appears to be a variation of hoka he - a warrior's battle cry loosely (or literally by some) translated to mean: IT IS A GOOD DAY TO DIE!• by weawakshte June 18, 2010 3:55 PM EDT

In English, my Lakhota name weawaste means: good woman.

Copyright 2010 by WISN.com.

Quote from: "DannyB II"

Quote from: "Pile of Dead Kids"
Danny, we're posting on a forum which prominently features parents willingly sending their own children to total isolation a thousand miles away, with extremely limited contact, to people with obviously sadistic goals, whose notion of what makes good therapy is like Jeffrey Dahmer's notion of what makes a good lunch.

And this particular topic features people doing it to themselves, willingly sitting in a sauna until they died of heat exhaustion.

Maybe it's just because it's been in so many movies, but Ed Gein's brand of crazy seems tame and textbook by comparison.
All this talk of Jeffery Dahmer and Ed Gein just creeps me out. I have sat in many of saunas and sweat lodges, people have died of heat stroke and heart attacks not necessarily when I have been there. So this is not some extraordinary circumstance, my friends.

Was entertainment provided in the saunas and sweat lodges, Danny? Did some Jim Jones stand-in have y'all push through the toxemia and altered mental state brought about when your liver and kidneys shut down, and have y'all chant "it's a good day to die" when the going got tough?

Quote from: "Ursus"

Quote from: "DannyB II"
Quote from: "Pile of Dead Kids"
Danny, we're posting on a forum which prominently features parents willingly sending their own children to total isolation a thousand miles away, with extremely limited contact, to people with obviously sadistic goals, whose notion of what makes good therapy is like Jeffrey Dahmer's notion of what makes a good lunch.

And this particular topic features people doing it to themselves, willingly sitting in a sauna until they died of heat exhaustion.

Maybe it's just because it's been in so many movies, but Ed Gein's brand of crazy seems tame and textbook by comparison.
All this talk of Jeffery Dahmer and Ed Gein just creeps me out. I have sat in many of saunas and sweat lodges, people have died of heat stroke and heart attacks not necessarily when I have been there. So this is not some extraordinary circumstance, my friends.
Was entertainment provided in the saunas and sweat lodges, Danny? Did some Jim Jones stand-in have y'all push through the toxemia and altered mental state brought about when your liver and kidneys shut down, and have y'all chant "it's a good day to die" when the going got tough?

Mr Breach, all I'm saying is folks have died while or after sweating at a lodges, I believe I forgot to mention the saunas too. This is horrible but not extraordinary. Though I believe we applaud your daily dose of dramatics. You should start you own news paper or Magazine, The DDD= Daily Dose of Dramatics.

Quote from: "DannyB II"

Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "DannyB II"
Quote from: "Pile of Dead Kids"
Danny, we're posting on a forum which prominently features parents willingly sending their own children to total isolation a thousand miles away, with extremely limited contact, to people with obviously sadistic goals, whose notion of what makes good therapy is like Jeffrey Dahmer's notion of what makes a good lunch.

And this particular topic features people doing it to themselves, willingly sitting in a sauna until they died of heat exhaustion.

Maybe it's just because it's been in so many movies, but Ed Gein's brand of crazy seems tame and textbook by comparison.
All this talk of Jeffery Dahmer and Ed Gein just creeps me out. I have sat in many of saunas and sweat lodges, people have died of heat stroke and heart attacks not necessarily when I have been there. So this is not some extraordinary circumstance, my friends.
Was entertainment provided in the saunas and sweat lodges, Danny? Did some Jim Jones stand-in have y'all push through the toxemia and altered mental state brought about when your liver and kidneys shut down, and have y'all chant "it's a good day to die" when the going got tough?
Mr Breach, all I'm saying is folks have died while or after sweating at a lodges, I believe I forgot to mention the saunas too. This is horrible but not extraordinary. Though I believe we applaud your daily dose of dramatics. You should start you own news paper or Magazine, The DDD= Daily Dose of Dramatics.

So... am I correct in understanding you to say ... that all this which went down in James "Death" Ray's sweating bonanza ... was all pretty much par for the course?

Quote from: "Ursus"

Quote from: "DannyB II"
Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "DannyB II"
Quote from: "Pile of Dead Kids"
Danny, we're posting on a forum which prominently features parents willingly sending their own children to total isolation a thousand miles away, with extremely limited contact, to people with obviously sadistic goals, whose notion of what makes good therapy is like Jeffrey Dahmer's notion of what makes a good lunch.

And this particular topic features people doing it to themselves, willingly sitting in a sauna until they died of heat exhaustion.

Maybe it's just because it's been in so many movies, but Ed Gein's brand of crazy seems tame and textbook by comparison.
All this talk of Jeffery Dahmer and Ed Gein just creeps me out. I have sat in many of saunas and sweat lodges, people have died of heat stroke and heart attacks not necessarily when I have been there. So this is not some extraordinary circumstance, my friends.
Was entertainment provided in the saunas and sweat lodges, Danny? Did some Jim Jones stand-in have y'all push through the toxemia and altered mental state brought about when your liver and kidneys shut down, and have y'all chant "it's a good day to die" when the going got tough?
Mr Breach, all I'm saying is folks have died while or after sweating at a lodges, I believe I forgot to mention the saunas too. This is horrible but not extraordinary. Though I believe we applaud your daily dose of dramatics. You should start you own news paper or Magazine, The DDD= Daily Dose of Dramatics.
So... am I correct in understanding you to say ... that all this which went down in James "Death" Ray's sweating bonanza ... was all pretty much par for the course?

Well now, I don't know if I would use your exact words. How about something similar to what I said yesterday. People have died from complications brought on by saunas and sweat lodges.
Ursus, I think if you go back in James Ray's, "Sweat Lodge" history, I believe this is the first time folks have died. How many sweats has he guided in his lifetime, literally thousands.
Why are you personally attached to this particular article, did something happen to you at a sweat lodge, you are not revealing here. Weird things can happen in there.
I am of the same opinion as you that these deaths are tragic. James fleeing the scene does not help either but if you know anything about law, you know that was a calculated move directed by his lawyer.

Quote from: "DannyB II"

Ursus, I think if you go back in James Ray's, "Sweat Lodge" history, I believe this is the first time folks have died. How many sweats has he guided in his lifetime, literally thousands.

Somehow, I have grave doubts about your figure. Lol. This is supposed to be a spiritual ceremony, eh? Not some activity you churn out as many times as you can drum up enough participants for. Besides, Ray hasn't been doing it all that long.

And... apparently, he had some of his own ideas which superseded the advice of American Indian elders. From Green582's comment above (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=28923&start=75#p371739) (June 13, 2010 7:37 AM EDT); these are three quotes taken from one of the police interviews, colored emphasis added:

"James sits at the door... and there is you know chanting and praying and that kind of stuff in between and blah-blah-blah.... and there is a saying that's called Haiyaha, it's like I don't know and some kind of Native American thing like you know that's cool.... We called these things radical spiritual experiences, okay, so anytime we did something like this... the idea is to give yourself an out of, not so much in it, but I know that word "out of body experience" has been used, but it's more about knowing that you are more, I mean normal people can't bend rebar with their necks, would you agree?"

"Okay so the sweat lodge, he borrows from everybody and that actually has been part of his brilliance in my opinion is that he had the ability to take material from all kinds of different sources and synthesize it together and deliver it in a very understandable way. So he would borrow from the Native American tradition, he borrowed from the Hawaiian traditions, he borrowed from the South American natives, and has read extensively and like weaves all this stuff together. So when you are doing the stuff in Arizona, you are of course heavily on the Native American side of things and you are experiencing the energy of Sedona which is why people go there and the red rocks, and okay now we are going to do a sweat lodge...."

"I do remember the first time we did it, he said, he called around to try to find somebody who would facilitate this, host it and facilitate it. He couldn't find anybody who was willing to do it, because he called some Native American places I guess that do this. And they said well how many stones or how many rounds did you want to do and I forget how many he said, but whatever his number was, they said no, white people can't do that. And he thought that was really funny then he said, well you don't know my white people, but yeah exactly you don't know my white people is what he said. So he took over and did it himself and found Angel Valley who was willing to let him do that, I guess."[/list]

It's almost as if James Ray set out to prove that his followers could do anything the Native Americans could do, and more.

Quote from: "Ursus"

Quote from: "DannyB II"
Ursus, I think if you go back in James Ray's, "Sweat Lodge" history, I believe this is the first time folks have died. How many sweats has he guided in his lifetime, literally thousands.
Somehow, I have grave doubts about your figure. Lol. This is supposed to be a spiritual ceremony, eh? Not some activity you churn out as many times as you can drum up enough participants for. Besides, Ray hasn't been doing it all that long.

This is true, I wrote my response wrong. I meant he has had thousands go through his sweat lodge experience.
Spritual ceremony, it definitely has the potential but it is up to the participants. James can only guide and witness their spiritual experience.

And... apparently, he had some of his own ideas which superseded the advice of American Indian elders. From Green582's comment above (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=28923&start=75#p371739) (June 13, 2010 7:37 AM EDT); these are three quotes taken from one of the police interviews, colored emphasis added:

There is no doubt he allowed for himself to venture out of the, "Native American" sweat experience.

"James sits at the door... and there is you know chanting and praying and that kind of stuff in between and blah-blah-blah.... and there is a saying that's called Haiyaha, it's like I don't know and some kind of Native American thing like you know that's cool.... We called these things radical spiritual experiences, okay, so anytime we did something like this... the idea is to give yourself an out of, not so much in it, but I know that word "out of body experience" has been used, but it's more about knowing that you are more, I mean normal people can't bend rebar with their necks, would you agree?"

"Okay so the sweat lodge, he borrows from everybody and that actually has been part of his brilliance in my opinion is that he had the ability to take material from all kinds of different sources and synthesize it together and deliver it in a very understandable way. So he would borrow from the Native American tradition, he borrowed from the Hawaiian traditions, he borrowed from the South American natives, and has read extensively and like weaves all this stuff together. So when you are doing the stuff in Arizona, you are of course heavily on the Native American side of things and you are experiencing the energy of Sedona which is why people go there and the red rocks, and okay now we are going to do a sweat lodge...."

"I do remember the first time we did it, he said, he called around to try to find somebody who would facilitate this, host it and facilitate it. He couldn't find anybody who was willing to do it, because he called some Native American places I guess that do this. And they said well how many stones or how many rounds did you want to do and I forget how many he said, but whatever his number was, they said no, white people can't do that. And he thought that was really funny then he said, well you don't know my white people, but yeah exactly you don't know my white people is what he said. So he took over and did it himself and found Angel Valley who was willing to let him do that, I guess."[/list]

It's almost as if James Ray set out to prove that his followers could do anything the Native Americans could do, and more.

Quote from: "Some dipshit"

their spiritual experience

Well, they're definitely having a "spiritual experience" now, aren't they?

Quote from: "Pile of Dead Kids"

Quote from: "Some dipshit"
their spiritual experience

Well, they're definitely having a "spiritual experience" now, aren't they?

Why are you hell bent on being as disgusting and ill-tempered as you can be.

My apologies Pile, my other personality was rude to you and I was wrong. I think we can all get along here so long as you all play by my rules. My cult is growing and with it my powerlessness. I recruited several new members from the gutter behind the AA meeting last night. I have rendered them as powerless as myself. They shall serve me in the afterlife.
Peace and Powerlessness
Danny

Two different understandings of the "spiritual chant" James Ray had his followers do whilst in the sweat lodge; from this set of comments (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=28923&start=75#p371739), color emphasis added:

James Ray follower, probably not Native American:

• by Green582 June 13, 2010 7:37 AM EDT

Haiyaha, it's like I don't know and some kind of Native American thing like you know that's cool.... We called these things radical spiritual experiences, okay, so anytime we did something like this... the idea is to give yourself an out of, not so much in it, but I know that word "out of body experience" has been used, but it's more about knowing that you are more, I mean normal people can't bend rebar with their necks, would you agree?"[/list][/list]

Native American, and not a James Ray follower:

• by weawakshte June 18, 2010 3:50 PM EDT

PS His chant appears to be a variation of hoka he - a warrior's battle cry loosely (or literally by some) translated to mean: IT IS A GOOD DAY TO DIE![/list][/list]

Quote from: "Ursus"

Two different understandings of the "spiritual chant" James Ray had his followers do whilst in the sweat lodge; from this set of comments (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=28923&start=75#p371739), color emphasis added:

James Ray follower, probably not Native American:

• by Green582 June 13, 2010 7:37 AM EDT
A woman in one of the police interviews has some interesting things to say about the Giant Plastic Death Tent:

"James sits at the door... and there is you know chanting and praying and that kind of stuff in between and blah-blah-blah.... and there is a saying that's called
Haiyaha, it's like I don't know and some kind of Native American thing like you know that's cool.... We called these things radical spiritual experiences, okay, so anytime we did something like this... the idea is to give yourself an out of, not so much in it, but I know that word "out of body experience" has been used, but it's more about knowing that you are more, I mean normal people can't bend rebar with their necks, would you agree?"[/list][/list]

Native American, and not a James Ray follower:

• by weawakshte June 18, 2010 3:50 PM EDT
PS His chant appears to be a variation of
hoka he - a warrior's battle cry loosely (or literally by some) translated to mean: IT IS A GOOD DAY TO DIE![/list][/list]

I agree, there will be a time when, "IT IS A GOOD DAY TO DIE", for everyone.

Oh FFS......this is nothing more than newage bullshit, run by a guy with a guru complex. People like this are called Malignant Narcissists and have a deep need to be 'adored' and the "goto guy".

Malignant Narcissism:

http://narcissistic-personality.suite10 ... narcissism (http://narcissistic-personality.suite101.com/article.cfm/malignant_narcissism)

Traits of Malignant Narcissism
Behavioral Pathology beyond Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD)
Aug 27, 2007 Tami Port

What is Malignant Narcissism? - public domain copywrt exp wikimediaMost of us have narcissistic traits, and a certain degree of self-interest is healthy. But at what point does self-absorption become pathological narcissism?

The term narcissism is derived from the Greek myth of Narcissus, a handsome youth who became obsessed with himself, falling in love with his own reflection. Some degree of narcissism is considered normal; however, when narcissistic traits are so predominant that they significantly impair an individual’s social functioning, this merits a psychological diagnosis of Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD). Yet, the spectrum of narcissistic behavior can extend far beyond NPD to include even more serious forms of self-obsession including malignant narcissism and psychopathy (Kernberg 2003, 2004).

What is Narcissistic Personality Disorder?
The DSM-IV-TR, a manual that psychologists use to diagnose NPD and other mental disorders, explains that NPD is a type of psychological personality disorder characterized by grandiosity, need for admiration, and lack of empathy. Narcissism occurs in a spectrum of severity, but the pathologically narcissistic tend primarily be men (75%) who are extremely self-absorbed, intolerant of others’ perspectives, insensitive to others’ needs and indifferent to the effect of their own egocentric behavior. NPD is one of a cluster of loosely-related personality disorders (Borderline PD, Antisocial PD and Histrionic PD), all based on dramatic, emotional or erratic behavior.
Diagnostic Overlap of Cluster B Disorders
Considerable overlap between the characteristics of different personality disorders can make diagnosis of NPD challenging. Grandiosity, lack of empathy and exploitative interpersonal relations are not unique to NPD, nor is the need to be seen as special or unique. The differential diagnosis of NPD is typically made based on the absence of certain behaviors.

Borderline Personality Concerned a loved one has it? 8 minute video. Non-profit. http://www.bpdfamily.com (http://www.bpdfamily.com)
Narcissistic Personality Traits Search multiple engines for narcissistic personality traits http://www.webcrawler.com (http://www.webcrawler.com)
Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD) has several conspicuous similarities, but unlike NPD is characterized by self-injury, whereas narcissists are rarely physically self-injurious. The need for constant attention is also found in Histrionic Personality Disorder, but HPD and BPD are both relationship oriented, whereas NPD is characterized by avoidance of intimacy. Psychopathy, or Antisocial Personality Disorder, is differentiated from NPD by psychopaths' willingness to use physical violence, whereas narcissists rarely commit crimes (Vaknin, 1999-2007).

How Is Malignant Narcissism Different from NPD?
Otto Kernberg MD, a legendary thought leader in the study of personality disorders, originated the term "malignant narcissism" to describe a syndrome of narcissism that went beyond Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD). Malignant narcissism is like NPD on pathological steroids, manifesting additional antisocial features, paranoid traits, and ego-syntonic aggression. Kernberg believed that malignant narcissism was part of a spectrum of narcissistic behavior; ranging from NPD, at the low end, to malignant narcissism, and with psychopathy representing the high end of narcissistic severity.

Spectrum of Narcissism
Psychopaths can almost be thought of as emotionally disabled in that they appear to experience a very limited range of emotion. They know the difference between what society considers “right” and “wrong,” but do not experience, and cannot empathize with, the feelings of suffering, remorse, elation and love that are normally part of the human experience.

Kernberg differentiated psychopathy from malignant narcissism based on his assessment that psychopaths are so resistant to external influences that they are unlikely to internalize even the values of the "aggressor." Psychopaths are unable to emotionally identify with others. In contrast, he believed narcissists to have the capacity to identify with and admire powerful people, “which permits at least some loyalty and good object relations to be internalized." However, all three levels of narcissistic behavior pathology share the common threads of extreme self-absorption and insensitivity that often result in a trail of victims--emotional wreckage left in the narcissist’s wake (Kernberg 2003, 2004).

Read on
Assessing Narcissistic Personality
Narcissistic Personality Disorder Diagnosis
Narcissistic Personality Disorder NPD
More Information on Narcissism

There are numerous on-line and in print resources with additional information on narcissism and personality disorders in general, including: Psychology Prof Online, The Mayo Clinic: Mental Health Center and the article Personality Disorders: Brief Summary of the Ten Disorders of Personality.

This article is a summary of narcissistic traits and disorders. The contents of this article are not meant to be a substitute for professional help and counseling.

Additional Narcissism Resources
Kernberg, Otto (2004) Aggressivity, Narcissism, and Self-Destructiveness in the Psychotherapeutic Relationship: New Developments in the Psychopathology and Psychotherapy of Severe Personality Disorders.

Kernberg, Otto and Akhtar, Salman. (2003) Broken Structures: Severe Personality Disorders and Their Treatment.

Vaknin, S (1999-2007). Malignant Self Love: Narcissism Revisited.

Wikipedia: Narcissism and Malignant Narcissism

American Psychiatric Association APA (2000) Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-IV-TR)

Read more at Suite101: Traits of Malignant Narcissism: Behavioral Pathology beyond Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) http://narcissistic-personality.suite10 ... z0vkp1yVvJ (http://narcissistic-personality.suite101.com/article.cfm/malignant_narcissism#ixzz0vkp1yVvJ)

I think a lot of the older program founders and similar movers and shakers (before this industry got populated by large companies like Aspen Ed) *do* qualify as being on the Narcissistic Personality Disorder spectrum... :D

Wow Anne, Well done and thanks! J.O.M.

Quote from: "justonemore"

Wow Anne, Well done and thanks! J.O.M.

WOW!!!! ya, real nifty, JOM . Like, "what if".
Ya well done Anne, like I bet you were just scrolling through the internet on your bosses time and found this, like, totally awesome take on narcissism. Like, fucking narley duse, totally fits in with the scene around here. This James Ray dude, is like, a total loser, man.
Guru, no way, man. There is only one, "Zen Meister" and that is Dr. Phil, totally wicked, dude.

Quote from: "DannyB II"

Quote from: "justonemore"
Wow Anne, Well done and thanks! J.O.M.
WOW!!!! ya, real nifty, JOM . Like, "what if".
Ya well done Anne, like I bet you were just scrolling through the internet on your bosses time and found this, like, totally awesome take on narcissism. Like, fucking narley duse, totally fits in with the scene around here. This James Ray dude, is like, a total loser, man.
Guru, no way, man. There is only one, "Zen Meister" and that is Dr. Phil, totally wicked, dude.

Do you really think of Dr. Phil as the "Zen Meister," Danny?

Quote from: "Ursus"

Quote from: "DannyB II"
Quote from: "justonemore"
Wow Anne, Well done and thanks! J.O.M.
WOW!!!! ya, real nifty, JOM . Like, "what if".
Ya well done Anne, like I bet you were just scrolling through the internet on your bosses time and found this, like, totally awesome take on narcissism. Like, fucking narley duse, totally fits in with the scene around here. This James Ray dude, is like, a total loser, man.
Guru, no way, man. There is only one, "Zen Meister" and that is Dr. Phil, totally wicked, dude.
Do you really think of Dr. Phil as the "Zen Meister," Danny?

Well, how do I answer this. Danny 1, did not post this but a lively and satirical young lady did.

Quote from: "DannyB II"

Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "DannyB II"
Quote from: "justonemore"
Wow Anne, Well done and thanks! J.O.M.
WOW!!!! ya, real nifty, JOM . Like, "what if".
Ya well done Anne, like I bet you were just scrolling through the internet on your bosses time and found this, like, totally awesome take on narcissism. Like, fucking narley duse, totally fits in with the scene around here. This James Ray dude, is like, a total loser, man.
Guru, no way, man. There is only one, "Zen Meister" and that is Dr. Phil, totally wicked, dude.
Do you really think of Dr. Phil as the "Zen Meister," Danny?
Well, how do I answer this. Danny 1, did not post this but a lively and satirical young lady did.

I would say ... that you're responsible for everything that's posted under your username. Claiming that it was really someone else... sounds like a bit of a cop-out.

Back to the story...

-------------- • -------------- • --------------

The New York Times
Arizona: Self-Help Expert Contests Police Statements (http://http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/13/us/13brfs-SELFHELPEXPE_BRF.html)
By JOHN DOUGHERTY
Published: October 12, 2009

A spokesman for James Arthur Ray, the self-help expert who was leading a sweat lodge ceremony in Sedona when two people died and three others were critically injured on Thursday, is contesting statements by the police that the lodge was built by Mr. Ray's staff. The spokesman, Howard Bragman, said Mr. Ray's contract with the Angel Valley spiritual retreat called for Angel Valley to "design and construct" the sweat lodge. Dwight D'Evelyn, a Yavapai County Sheriff's Office spokesman, said the office stood by its contention that members of Mr. Ray's staff built the sweat lodge. Angel Valley's owners declined to comment on the contract. Mr. Bragman also contested earlier police statements that Mr. Ray had left the area Thursday evening. He said Mr. Ray left Sedona on Friday. Mr. D'Evelyn said Mr. Ray was at Angel Valley as late as 10 p.m. Thursday when detectives began their investigation. Mr. Ray declined to give a statement to detectives on the case, the police said.

A version of this article appeared in print on October 13, 2009, on page A23 of the New York edition.

Copyright 2009 The New York Times Company

Quote from: "Ursus"

Quote from: "DannyB II"
Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "DannyB II"
Quote from: "justonemore"
Wow Anne, Well done and thanks! J.O.M.
WOW!!!! ya, real nifty, JOM . Like, "what if".
Ya well done Anne, like I bet you were just scrolling through the internet on your bosses time and found this, like, totally awesome take on narcissism. Like, fucking narley duse, totally fits in with the scene around here. This James Ray dude, is like, a total loser, man.
Guru, no way, man. There is only one, "Zen Meister" and that is Dr. Phil, totally wicked, dude.
Do you really think of Dr. Phil as the "Zen Meister," Danny?
Well, how do I answer this. Danny 1, did not post this but a lively and satirical young lady did.
I would say ... that you're responsible for everything that's posted under your username. Claiming that it was really someone else... sounds like a bit of a cop-out.

"You would say", :rofl: I'm responsible, claiming, cop out, all coming from someone who hides behind a fake name and a law of internet confidentiality, governing Web Sites.
Ursus go and pander your nonsense else where.

The Daily Courier
10/13/2009 10:23:00 PM

SWEAT LODGE DEATHS: Ray speaks out, says he's 'being tested' (http://http://www.dcourier.com/main.asp?Search=1&ArticleID=73429&SectionID=1&SubSectionID=1&S=1)
By DAISY NGUYEN and FELICIA FONSECA
The Associated Press

LOS ANGELES - The man in charge of a spiritual retreat last week in Arizona that left two people dead after they were overcome in a sweat lodge said Tuesday night he is facing a difficult time and is "being tested" by the tragedy.

The comments from self-help expert and author James Arthur Ray came during a seminar he held at a hotel in Marina del Rey, near Los Angeles. Ray broke down in tears as he addressed the deaths.

"This is the most difficult time I've ever faced," Ray told the crowd of about 200. "I don't know how to deal with it really."

An audience member asked Ray to describe what happened at the retreat, but he declined, saying only that he has hired his own investigative team and is cooperating with authorities.

"We're looking for answers," he said. "I'm as frustrated and confused as other people are."

Ray added that he wrestled with whether to go through with Tuesday's seminar, which he said was scheduled weeks before the sweat lodge deaths.

"My advisers told me, 'Don't do that. You don't know who'll show up. They're going to eat you alive,"' he told the audience. But he said it was important for him to keep his commitments.

"I'm grieving right now," Ray said. "I'm grieving for the families."

Ray led a group of more than 50 people last week through a five-day program at a resort near Sedona, Ariz., intended to push people beyond their limits. The course included a Thursday sweat lodge ceremony, which ended tragically in the deaths of Kirby Brown, 38, of Westtown, N.Y., and James Shore, 40, of Milwaukee.

Nineteen other people were hurt, and one remains in critical condition.

Ray's comments followed a demand earlier Tuesday from a spokesman for Brown's family for more accountability from Ray.

Tom McFeeley, Brown's cousin and family spokesman, called on Ray to assure that the retreat's participants "were not mistreated and not put in a reckless situation.

"He was someone people believed in, people paid good money to get his advice," McFeeley said. "It's a person we all wanted to believe had our best interest in mind. Quite simply, that didn't happen."

McFeeley also said he is concerned that Ray exhibited a "godlike complex" during the event that might have kept people from opting out of activities Ray acknowledged could cause "physical, emotional, financial or other injuries."

Fire department reports released Tuesday show the incident wasn't the first involving a sweat lodge ceremony at the resort. Verde Valley Fire Chief Jerry Doerksen said his department responded to a 911 call in October 2005 about a person who was unconscious after being in a sweat lodge.

Angel Valley resort owner Amayra Hamilton confirmed that Ray was leading the sweat ceremony during the 2005 event. Ray's spokesman declined to comment.

Meanwhile, the Yavapai County Sheriff's Office continued to investigate last week's ceremony to determine if criminal negligence played a role in the deaths or illnesses. Sheriff's spokesman Dwight D'Evelyn said Tuesday that authorities have not yet spoken with Ray.

Ray's spokesman, Howard Bragman, declined Tuesday to address the Brown family's concerns.

Authorities say 55 to 65 people attending the program were crowded into the 415-square-foot, crudely built sweat lodge during a two-hour period Thursday night. Participants paid between $9,000 and $10,000 for the retreat. They were highly encouraged, but not forced, to remain inside for the entire two hours, authorities said.

The participants had fasted for 36 hours as part of a personal and spiritual quest in the wilderness, then ate a breakfast buffet before entering the sweat lodge around 3 p.m. A 911 call two hours later said two people, who authorities said were Shore and Brown, had no pulse and weren't breathing.

Autopsies on Brown and Shore were conducted, but the results are being withheld pending additional tests. Carbon monoxide poisoning was ruled out as a cause of the deaths and illnesses.

A statement released by the family of Liz Neuman, who remains in critical condition at the Flagstaff Medical Center, said she is in a coma and doctors are working to stabilize damage to multiple organs.

Two others remained hospitalized. Fire officials say the victims exhibited symptoms ranging from dehydration to kidney failure after sitting in the sweat lodge.

Officials say the sweat lodge, built specifically for the five-day retreat, lacked the necessary building permit.

Resort owners Amayra Hamilton and her husband, Michael, asked Tuesday for prayers in hopes that something positive would come out of what they said was a tragic and unexpected event.

© Copyright 2010 Western News&Info, Inc.® The Daily Courier is the information source for Prescott area communities in Northern Arizona.

Comments (http://http://www.dcourier.com/main.asp?Search=1&ArticleID=73429&SectionID=1&SubSectionID=1&S=1) left for the above article, "SWEAT LODGE DEATHS: Ray speaks out, says he's 'being tested' (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=28923&p=373100#p373093) " (by Daisy Nguyen and Felicia Fonseca, 10/13/2009, The Daily Courier/AP):

Article comment by: You can't fix stupid · Posted: Wednesday, October 14, 2009

Gee, now doesn't everyone feels sorry for Mr. Ray - how he is being "tested" and all. Hard to believe people pay this moron good money to listen to his nonsense. Hopefully the one good thing that comes from this is this guy's 15 minutes are up.Article comment by: Maveth · Posted: Wednesday, October 14, 2009

"James Arthur Ray" = "Man Soon To Be Impoverished By Multiple Lawsuits". Self-help expert, eh? Guess he should have consulted some Indians about how to build a proper sweat lodge. Moron.Article comment by: AMAZED IN AZ · Posted: Wednesday, October 14, 2009

A dominant theme of Mr. Ray's reaction to this whole misbegotten motivational money-making venture seems to be thus: "It's all about me." The victims appear to be barely after thoughts by Mr. Ray and his advisors who are----what? Lawyers? Business partners? Members of Ray's entourage? Hopefully, investigators will be shedding some light on that question--- among others.Article comment by: Schools out · Posted: Wednesday, October 14, 2009

Tested ? After reading the article about how in 2005 another 911 call came in for the same thing , I think this time "Ray" failed the test . Its becoming increasingly clear he put people at risk on more than one occasion , to busy counting his money or whatever, to pay attention to what he was doing. Now as a increasing number of past participants are comming out and more will , Next press conference he'll probably claim to be a victim. Sorry "Ray", you're done . Test over you failed .Article comment by: No name provided · Posted: Wednesday, October 14, 2009

The editor has removed this comment because it violates the Terms of Use agreement for dCourier.com. The "Use of Service" portion states, "If you use the Service, including the Messages Boards or Blogs, or submit essays, e-mail messages or other information via http://www.courieraz.com (http://www.courieraz.com) or http://www.prescottaz.com (http://www.prescottaz.com), you agree to abide by and be bound by the following:
1. You may not post, upload, or transmit any material or links to material that is libelous, defamatory, false, misleading, obscene, indecent, lewd, pornographic, violent, abusive, threatening, harassing, discriminatory, racist, vulgar, invasive of another¹s privacy, illegal, constitutes hate speech, or harms minors in any way. You may not post content that degrades others on the basis of gender, race, class, ethnicity, national origin, religion, sexual preference, disability or other classification. Epithets and other language intended to intimidate or to incite violence will not be tolerated. Debate, but don¹t attack. The Daily Courier encourages vibrant discussions and welcomes active debate in its discussion forums. But personal attacks are not tolerated, and are a direct violation of these Terms of Use."[/list]
Article comment by: sauna owner · Posted: Wednesday, October 14, 2009

The sweat bath rule requiring people to exit the structure to cool off between rounds, usually in cold water, apparently was not followed. Organizers should have consulted someone about the health and safety of participants.Article comment by: BM · Posted: Wednesday, October 14, 2009

Is Arsenic released as vapor if in the rocks,or ground used.It could account for the deaths aside from having 65 or so suckers in one sweat lodge at $10,000 a pop.Article comment by: common sense · Posted: Wednesday, October 14, 2009

A severe lack of common sense has been exhibited here by one and all involved! It's very sad that there is this tragic ending to what was supposed to be an enlightening positive experience. My heart goes out to the families.Article comment by: Dumb! · Posted: Wednesday, October 14, 2009

This guy is only interested in one thing! His own wealth, not anyone elses! Anyone that follows this guy is lost and blinded by his false teachings! My condolences to thoes families who lost someone.Article comment by: I bet they ran out of oxygen. · Posted: Wednesday, October 14, 2009

They ran out of oxygen. A structure with the stated dimensions and 60 people would give each person 25 cubic feet of room air to breath in 2 hours. I don't think that's enough. This assumes no air came into the structure nor any of the exhaled carbon dioxide (not monoxide) left. That could happen I bet. And they can't test for CO2 like the can CO. It leaves the bloodsream asap.Article comment by: Oops · Posted: Wednesday, October 14, 2009

So many people seem to be so lost and in need of a leader. I see this with congregations giving thousands of dollars to TV preachers who live in mansions and who don't even bother to read the prayer requests submitted with the check. Besides "freely God has given, freely give." No one should be charging for anything they do in the name of "god." People are so gullible to be giving to these nut cases. Sedona makes its millions off the backs of people who need a guru to lead them by the ring in their noses. "Vortexes" and "Hot Spots" are calling cards to Sedona; get real! You should know this is all kids play - grow up! I've seen your circles of rocks its laughable and childish. Why not put that $10,000.00 into a homeless shelter instead of standing in a building and pouring out drops of sweat looking for some spiritual high. Can you be that needy? Hope you can all learn from this farce! When was the last time your fearless leader Ray stood two hours in a sweat house?Article comment by: One Born Every Minute... · Posted: Wednesday, October 14, 2009

This is simply nature weeding out the weakest in society. If you really need guidance like this, you're a drain on society anyway. Just like believing in some mythical god. Only the weak need someone to tell them how to live their lives...Article comment by: Eddie Eagle · Posted: Wednesday, October 14, 2009

Wake up Prescott, these people are coming up from Phoenix to prey on your wealth and good nature. Protect yourself, alarm your house, purchase a firearm from a local dealer. Help the local economy while keeping you and your family safe.Article comment by: Can't pass the smell test · Posted: Wednesday, October 14, 2009

Maybe Ray could self-heal himself by giving all of his "clients" their $10,000 back. They clearly didn't reach the level of "worship" that Ray promised themArticle comment by: Nancy Shelton · Posted: Thursday, October 15, 2009

I frankly despise any "religious" manifesto (whether New Age or Christian) that includes material wealth as a benefit of spiritual enlightment. This was professed by Ray, as well as some really "splinter" Christian groups. How could a reasoning human being believe that material wealth is bestowed on the spiritually enlighted or faithful? Ray played on these people and their own greed played into their reliance on Ray as their spiritual leader. I'm not sure who is more to blame morally, but I am pretty sure gross negligence (on the part of Ray) is responsible for their deaths.Article comment by: No name provided · Posted: Friday, October 16, 2009

The latest on how Ray's left town: http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/10/12 ... 8668.shtml (http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/10/12/crimesider/entry5378668.shtml)[/list]

© Copyright 2010 Western News&Info, Inc.® The Daily Courier is the information source for Prescott area communities in Northern Arizona.

Jeesh, this is all great and what not but your posts are almost a year old and what the hell does any of this have to do with the TTI. As written on the home page of Fornits.
Oh, that's right Ursus is off on one of his, Chronicles of Blarnia, well I sure do hope your entertained.

Quote from: "DannyB II"

Jeesh, this is all great and what not but your posts are almost a year old and what the hell does any of this have to do with the TTI. As written on the home page of Fornits.
Oh, that's right Ursus is off on one of his, Chronicles of Blarnia, well I sure do hope your entertained.

Oh, I think it has quite a lot to do with the TTI. There's more than a few of the same methodologies used ... when it comes to getting folks to give up their critical reasoning skills and "follow the leader."

I'm guessing you don't agree, and it's certainly within your rights to opine that-a-way. :D

CBSnews.com · CRIMESIDER
October 13, 2009 9:31 AM

Angel Valley Sweat Lodge Deaths: Owner Didn't Have Permits (http://http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-5381438-504083.html?tag=contentMain%3bcontentBody)
Posted by Edecio Martinez

FLAGSTAFF, Ariz. (CBS/AP) No permit. Not even an application.

A sweat lodge in central Arizona where two people were overcome and later died lacked the necessary building permit, an official said Monday.

Yavapai County building safety manager Jack Judd said there was no record of an application or permit for a temporary structure at the Angel Valley Retreat Center near Sedona.

At any one time, 55 to 65 people attending the "Spiritual Warrior" program hosted by self-help expert and author James Arthur Ray were crowded into the 415-square-foot space during a two-hour period Thursday night, Yavapai County sheriff's officials said.

Kirby Brown, 38, of Westtown, New York, and James Shore, 40, of Milwaukee died after being overcome in the sauna-like hut, which was built specifically for the five-day retreat. Nineteen other people were hospitalized with symptoms ranging from dehydration to kidney failure. One remained in critical condition Monday, and two others were in fair condition.

Sheriff's spokesman Dwight D'Evelyn said authorities believe Ray's staff either participated in erecting the structure or oversaw the construction. Ray's spokesman, Howard Bragman, declined to comment on the permit but said the resort's staff was under contract to build a sweat lodge to accommodate up to 75 people.

Resort owner Michael Hamilton declined to address the permit issue late Monday. His wife, Amayra Hamilton, said Saturday the sweat lodge, which was built with a wood frame and covered with layers of tarps and blankets, had been taken down.

Judd said no inspection of the structure was conducted before it was dismantled.

Verde Valley Fire Chief Jerry Doerksen, whose department responded to the initial emergency call of two people not breathing, said his department regularly inspects the Hamiltons' property. He said the couple never hesitates to ask questions, raise concerns or address issues brought up by fire officials.

An inspection of the fire area used to heat the cantaloupe-sized rocks that were taken into the sweat lodge determined it "would have been a legal fire," Doerksen said.

The sheriff's office is investigating to determine if criminal negligence played a role in the deaths or illnesses. Tests for contaminants ruled out carbon monoxide poisoning as a cause.

Autopsies on Brown and Shore were conducted, but the results are being withheld pending additional tests.

Sweat lodges — used by American Indian tribes to cleanse the body and prepare for hunts, ceremonies and other events — are a common practice in the area. Most are on private property and hold no more than a dozen people, Doerksen said.

Large-scale sweat lodges appear to create a "new challenge for us," he said.

Talks are planned between his department and county officials to consider issuing health warnings for events such as sweat lodges that would include suggestions on how long to stay in.

"It's the same with hot tubs and saunas," Doerksen said. "Most of the time in a motel, it will say do not stay in there more than 10 to 15 minutes. What we're looking at is the same kind of thing."

Copyright ©2010 CBS Interactive Inc.

Comments (http://http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-5381438-504083.html?tag=contentMain%3bcontentBody) left for the above article, "Sweat Lodge Deaths: Owner Didn't Have Permits (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=28923&p=373158#p373156)" (by Edecio Martinez; October 13, 2009; CBS News Crimesider):

by Ms_enza · October 13, 2009 11:20 AM EDT

these people were seeking a religious experience; they got one.by bearpaw5150 · October 13, 2009 12:03 PM EDT

by lwilson1952 · October 13, 2009 1:18 PM EDT

Once again, in the name of spirituality, greed raises it's ugly head. At $9000. a head, no less, this man sponsored a "spiritual experience" that should have never happened. It seems the emphasis was on quantity & not quality. The Elders were right, true spirituality has no price tag. Only those abusing it charge for it and the public who seeks TRUE spirituality will know the difference. Unfortunately, two people paid the ultimate price. Mr Ray has some SERIOUS soul searching to do, I hope he is capable.by Patrick-C · October 13, 2009 2:49 PM EDT

This is why there is a declared war by the Lakota spiritual community against blasphemers of our ceremonies and traditions. The permit is a technicality. The reason those people are dead is because a self-proclaimed self-help guru (I love that word) thought he knew how to run a sweat lodge. And that many people in one lodge is unheard of. He has more than the law to answer to now. We have a sweat lodge every week

by Ahaseheset · October 13, 2009 3:38 PM EDT

[/list]
by Ahaseheset · October 13, 2009 3:43 PM EDT

by Harden_Tar · October 13, 2009 4:47 PM EDT

People wanting to play "A Man Called Horse", and other people willing to take their money and let them do it. The people that do this for real have generations of experience and training and probably would not invite a group of wannabes into their ceremony in any event. These are "Self Help" snake oil salesmen preying on the poor souls that think they will gain some sort of spiritual enlightenment from some dude that is "hosting" their event. Sorry people died. Somebody needs to go to jail.

Copyright ©2010 CBS Interactive Inc.

Quote from: "DannyB II"

Ya well done Anne

Thanks, I thought it was pretty good myself.

:seg: :seg: :seg2: :seg2:

Quote from: "Ursus"

Quote from: "DannyB II"
Jeesh, this is all great and what not but your posts are almost a year old and what the hell does any of this have to do with the TTI. As written on the home page of Fornits.
Oh, that's right Ursus is off on one of his, Chronicles of Blarnia, well I sure do hope your entertained.
Oh, I think it has quite a lot to do with the TTI. There's more than a few of the same methodologies used ... when it comes to getting folks to give up their critical reasoning skills and "follow the leader."

I'm guessing you don't agree, and it's certainly within your rights to opine that-a-way. :D

No that would be the adult version, TAI.
There using the same methodologies, "folks giving up their critical reasoning skills and following the leader".
You can't be serious, Ursus.
Like you do when your busted by your wife for being on the computer, yet again. You explain to her, you have no
critical reasoning for being on the computer as much as you are and if she would intervene you would follow her out of the office.

Spoken like a douche as usual Danno
1605 | Search user’s posts
(0.46% of all posts / 10.56 posts per day) Most active forum: <b>Open Free for All</b>
(697 Posts / 43.43% of user’s posts) Most active topic: Fornits attitudes on AA border on the absurd....
(52 Posts / 3.24% of user’s posts)

The Daily Courier
10/13/2009 10:23:00 PM

SWEAT LODGE DEATHS: Victim's family seeks more details (http://http://www.dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&subsectionID=1&articleID=73432)
By FELICIA FONSECA · The Associated Press

(http://http://www.dcourier.com/SiteImages/Article/73432a.jpg)
A view of the Angel Valley Retreat Center Tuesday near Sedona shows a heart-shaped stone memorial on the site of last week's sweat lodge tragedy. Ross D. Franklin/The Associated Press

SEDONA - A spokesman for the family of one of two people who died after being overcome in an Arizona sweat lodge demanded more accountability Tuesday from the man in charge of the spiritual retreat that led to the deaths.

Self-help expert and author James Arthur Ray led a group of more than 50 people last week through a five-day program intended to push people beyond their limits. The course included a Thursday sweat lodge ceremony, which ended tragically in the deaths of Kirby Brown, 38, of Westtown, N.Y., and 40-year-old James Shore of Milwaukee.

Nineteen other people were hurt, and one remains in critical condition.

Tom McFeeley, Brown's cousin and family spokesman, called on Ray to assure that the participants "were not mistreated and not put in a reckless situation.

"He was someone people believed in, people paid good money to get his advice," McFeeley said. "It's a person we all wanted to believe had our best interest in mind. Quite simply, that didn't happen."

McFeeley also said he is concerned that Ray exhibited a "godlike complex" during the event that might have kept people from opting out of activities Ray acknowledged could cause "physical, emotional, financial or other injuries."

"We need to look at this way beyond the sweat lodge," McFeeley said. "If we could understand minute by minute what happened this week, I think we'll get a much greater view on what kind of event this was and the level of danger that existed."

Fire department reports released Tuesday show the incident wasn't the first involving a sweat lodge ceremony at the resort. Verde Valley Fire Chief Jerry Doerksen said his department responded to a 911 call in October 2005 about a person who was unconscious after being in a sweat lodge.

Angel Valley resort owner Amayra Hamilton confirmed that Ray was leading the sweat ceremony during the 2005 event. Ray's spokesman declined to comment.

No other details about the 2005 incident were immediately available.

Meanwhile, the Yavapai County Sheriff's Office continued to investigate last week's ceremony to determine if criminal negligence played a role in the deaths or illnesses. Authorities said Ray has refused to speak with authorities. No charges have been filed.

Ray's spokesman, Howard Bragman, has said Ray would speak when it's appropriate. He declined Tuesday to address the Brown family's concerns.

"The facts are going to come out," he said. "We're not going to conduct our investigation in the media. We're going to let the investigative bodies do their jobs."

Authorities say 55 to 65 people attending the program were crowded into the 415-square-foot crudely built sweat lodge during a two-hour period Thursday night. Participants paid between $9,000 and $10,000 for the retreat. They were highly encouraged, but not forced, to remain inside for the entire two hours, authorities said.

The participants had fasted for 36 hours as part of a personal and spiritual quest in the wilderness, then ate a breakfast buffet before entering the sweat lodge around 3 p.m. A 911 call two hours later said two people, who authorities said were Shore and Brown, had no pulse and weren't breathing.

Autopsies on Brown and Shore were conducted, but the results are being withheld pending additional tests. Carbon monoxide poisoning was ruled out as a cause of the deaths and illnesses.

A statement released by the family of Liz Neuman, who remains in critical condition at the Flagstaff Medical Center, said she is in a coma and doctors are working to stabilize damage to multiple organs.

"Liz is fighting hard and her family asks for everyone to keep her in their thoughts and prayers," the statement said.

Two others remained hospitalized. Fire officials say the victims exhibited symptoms ranging from dehydration to kidney failure after sitting in the sweat lodge.

Officials say the sweat lodge, built specifically for the five-day retreat, lacked the necessary building permit.

Resort owners Amayra Hamilton and her husband, Michael, asked Tuesday for prayers in hopes that something positive will come out of what they say was a tragic and unexpected event. The Hamiltons said that a prayer ceremony has been conducted at the sweat lodge site, and a heart-shaped memorial has been laid with stones for Brown and Shore.

Ray has expressed his condolences through social networking sites and said he is praying for the victims and their families.

McFeeley said the Hamiltons have been in contact with the Brown family, but did not receive a call from Ray until Tuesday.

© Copyright 2010 Western News&Info, Inc.® The Daily Courier is the information source for Prescott area communities in Northern Arizona.

Comments (http://http://www.dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&subsectionID=1&articleID=73432) left for the above article, "SWEAT LODGE DEATHS: Victim's family seeks more details (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=28923&p=373759#p373752)" (by Felicia Fonseca, 10/13/2009, The Daily Courier/AP):

Article comment by: Bill · Posted: Wednesday, October 14, 2009

If James Arthur Ray is such a visionary, why couldn't he see the danger he placed his followers in. He should be held accountable for those two deaths.Article comment by: No name provided · Posted: Wednesday, October 14, 2009

You got to wonder about people who would pay $9,000 to lay around in the dirt and not eat for 36 hours. How ironic that many homeless people do this minus the nine grand donation. If they want to listen to someone speak about their greatness, go to church. Sorry that people died and were injured. It just seems a little to self indulgent to me. Just go on a camping trip in the desert in the middle of the summer and for get the cooler with the food and you would have the same affect. Oh and bring a bible and pray.Article comment by: The Devil Guy · Posted: Wednesday, October 14, 2009

I agree; he should be held accountable. But what the heck is wrong w/these crazies paying big bucks to sweat in flippin' Sedona? I only charge $2,000 to come and have my shower in the bathroom on hot, close the doors, and sweat away...insanityArticle comment by: No name provided · Posted: Wednesday, October 14, 2009

I'm not a callous or mean spirited person, so of course I say it's sad that these deaths occured. The bottom line in my humble opinion, is that we are responsible for our own actions. Why must we always find someone else to blame for our own actions? Was Jim Jones at total fault for all the deaths of his followers? I have to say no. These people had families and friends. I have heard statements from some of them that they were aware of these folks' attendance at this event and what it entailed. People die just from being in a sauna, spa, or hot tub if it is too hot and are in too long. I know, because as an ex-medic, I responded to such deaths a few times. Doesn't any of these family members or friends realize the dangers that the participants are in, if the participants themselves are not intelligent enough or are too "spiritually" diminished to be aware? Spirituality is free. It doesn't come with an extravagant price tag. Anyone that would spend this amount of money to literally sweat to death, should be guarded and closely monitored by friends and family in the first place. When I hear of these ridiculous incidents, I always have to wonder if these folks are all there in the first place. My God never wants me to put myself in unnecessary harmful situations. If yours does, or your religious leaders say it does, then you might want to check out a different religion. May you all be blessed today!Article comment by: ran out of air? · Posted: Wednesday, October 14, 2009

Doing the math the structure was about 20 by 20 by 3 to 4 feet high. That's about 1400 cubic feet. Divide by 60 people gives each one about 25 cubic feet of room air to breath. That's the equivalent of a 3 foot cube to breath in 2 hours. I bet they ran out of oxygen. That would not produce carbon monoxide poising either, it's carbon dioxide that we breath out, oxygen that we consume.Article comment by: Judge not lest you be judged · Posted: Thursday, October 15, 2009

It seems very much that many of you are blaming these people for being on a spiritual quest instead of just believing in your god. Maybe the reason these people were searching is that they do not see god in your behavior.Article comment by: jim · posted: Thursday, October 15, 2009

Lets get real judge not. 60 people at 9 to 10 grand a pop? That should be a hint to those that are seeking God. Did you see the lodge? I made better forts than that when I was 9. I suppose believing in a God that tells you to kill as many other humans as possible is just another "quest" that should be understood and not exposed as false prophecy? Where is the common sense of it all? 9 grand to stand shoulder to shoulder in a makeshift whatever it is in a quest of spirituality while your body is void of nutrition and then sweat out every bit of hydration that remains is ludicrous. If my comment stops another insane act from another human being that would otherwise die because of it, then so be it. There are limits where one human being should step in to save another one from even religous stupidity.Article comment by: michael meloni · Posted: Monday, November 23, 2009

We conduct sweat lodges as part of our Healing Circle Programs. Our weekend programs change lives, but we only charge $100 per person. We bring many people back to God who were previously "Spiritual but not Religious." Sweat Lodges are intense by nature, but ogygen is a must. We put 10 -12 folks in a 10-12 foot diameter lodge made from birch branches and native hides. IT is clear that they put too many folks into too small a space and then sealed the tarps too tight. http://www.livingloa.com (http://www.livingloa.com)[/list]

© Copyright 2010 Western News&Info, Inc.® The Daily Courier is the information source for Prescott area communities in Northern Arizona.

CBSnews.com · CRIMESIDER
October 14, 2009 11:34 AM

Self-Help Guru James Arthur Ray "Frustrated and Confused" Over Angel Valley Sweat Lodge Deaths (http://http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-5368846-504083.html?tag=contentMain%3bcontentBody)
Posted by Edecio Martinez

(http://http://wwwimage.cbsnews.com/images/2009/10/14/image5383828x.jpg)
Photo: James Arthur Ray. (JamesRay.com)

LOS ANGELES (CBS/AP) James Arthur Ray, the man who led a spiritual retreat in Arizona where two people died after being overcome in a sweat lodge, broke down in tears as he said the tragedy has left him "frustrated and confused."

At a seminar outside Los Angeles, the self-help expert addressed the deaths of Kirby Brown, 38, of Westtown, N.Y., and James Shore, 40, of Milwaukee.

Authorities say Brown, Shore and more than 50 other people attending the retreat near Sedona, Ariz., were crowded into a 415-square-foot sweat lodge over two hours last Thursday Oct. 9.

Brown and Shore died, and 19 others were hurt. One remains in critical condition. Autopsy results are being withheld pending additional tests, but carbon monoxide poisoning was ruled out as a cause of the deaths and illnesses. Fire officials said the surviving victims exhibited symptoms ranging from dehydration to kidney failure.

"This is the most difficult time I've ever faced," Ray told a crowd of about 200 at a hotel in Marina del Rey Tuesday. "I don't know how to deal with it really."

An audience member asked Ray to describe what happened at the retreat, but he declined, saying only that he has hired his own investigative team and is cooperating with authorities.

"We're looking for answers," he said. "I'm as frustrated and confused as other people are."

Ray, who said he is "being tested" by the tragedy, added that he wrestled with whether to go through with Tuesday's seminar. He said it had been scheduled weeks before the Arizona retreat.

"My advisers told me, 'Don't do that. You don't know who'll show up. They're going to eat you alive,"' he told the audience. But he said it was important for him to keep his commitments.

"I'm grieving right now," said Ray. "I'm grieving for the families."

The comments followed a demand earlier Tuesday from a spokesman for Brown's family for more accountability from Ray.

Tom McFeeley, Brown's cousin and family spokesman, called on Ray to assure that the retreat's participants "were not mistreated and not put in a reckless situation."

McFeeley also said he is concerned that Ray exhibited a "godlike complex" during the event that might have kept people from opting out of activities that Ray acknowledged could cause "physical, emotional, financial or other injuries."

Ray's spokesman, Howard Bragman, declined Tuesday to address McFeeley's concerns.

Fire department reports released Tuesday show the incident wasn't the first involving a sweat lodge ceremony at the resort, the Angel Valley Retreat Center. Verde Valley Fire Chief Jerry Doerksen said his department responded to a 911 call in October 2005 about a person who was unconscious after being in a sweat lodge.

(http://http://wwwimage.cbsnews.com/images/2009/10/10/image5376265x.jpg)
Photo: Investigators look over a "sweat lodge" on the grounds of Angel Valley Retreat Center. (AP/Tom Tingle, Arizona Republic)

Angel Valley resort owner Amayra Hamilton confirmed that Ray was leading the sweat ceremony during the 2005 event. Ray's spokesman declined to comment.

Meanwhile, the Yavapai County Sheriff's Office continued to investigate last week's ceremony to determine if criminal negligence played a role in the deaths or illnesses. Sheriff's spokesman Dwight D'Evelyn said Tuesday that authorities have not yet spoken with Ray.

No charges have been filed.

Participants paid between $9,000 and $10,000 for the retreat, and police said they were highly encouraged, but not forced, to remain inside the crudely built sweat lodge the entire two hours, authorities said.

A statement released by the family of Liz Neuman, who remains in critical condition at the Flagstaff Medical Center, said she is in a coma and doctors are working to stabilize damage to multiple organs.

Two others remained hospitalized.

Officials say the sweat lodge, built specifically for the five-day retreat, lacked the necessary building permit.

Copyright ©2010 CBS Interactive Inc.

Not to be confrontational but what is the purpose of posting a incident that happened over a year ago, we are well aware of the story going back to your first posting. Is this for archival reasons for this Web Site. Some of the posting are redundant stories copied by the same poster, Ursus.
I am confused.

Quote from: "T-Rex"

Not to be confrontational but what is the purpose of posting a incident that happened over a year ago, we are well aware of the story going back to your first posting. Is this for archival reasons for this Web Site. Some of the posting are redundant stories copied by the same poster, Ursus.
I am confused.

See the following previous post, just a few back... Perhaps ya missed it! ;D

Originally posted (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=28923&start=105#p373149) on 09 Aug 2010:

Quote from: "Ursus"

Quote from: "DannyB II"
Jeesh, this is all great and what not but your posts are almost a year old and what the hell does any of this have to do with the TTI. As written on the home page of Fornits.
Oh, that's right Ursus is off on one of his, Chronicles of Blarnia, well I sure do hope your entertained.
Oh, I think it has quite a lot to do with the TTI. There's more than a few of the same methodologies used ... when it comes to getting folks to give up their critical reasoning skills and "follow the leader."

I'm guessing you don't agree, and it's certainly within your rights to opine that-a-way. :D

[/list]

The Daily Courier
10/14/2009 9:57:00 PM

Services set for 2 who died in Ariz. sweat lodge (http://http://www.dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&subsectionID=1&articleID=73479)
The Associated Press

SEDONA - Memorial services have been set for two people who died after being overcome in a sauna-like sweat lodge near Sedona.

Services are scheduled Saturday morning at Holy Name of Jesus Church in Otisville, N.Y., for 38-year-old Kirby Brown and late Saturday afternoon at the Hubbard Lodge in Milwaukee for 40-year-old James Shore.

Authorities say Brown, Shore and more than 50 other people attending a retreat were crowded into a sweat lodge for more than two hours on Oct. 8.

Nineteen others were treated at hospitals. One remains in critical condition and another was in good condition. A third patient was released.

Authorities are trying to determine if criminal negligence played a role. No charges have been filed.

© Copyright 2010 Western News&Info, Inc.® The Daily Courier is the information source for Prescott area communities in Northern Arizona.

Quote from: "Ursus"

Quote from: "T-Rex"
Not to be confrontational but what is the purpose of posting a incident that happened over a year ago, we are well aware of the story going back to your first posting. Is this for archival reasons for this Web Site. Some of the posting are redundant stories copied by the same poster, Ursus.
I am confused.
See the following previous post, just a few back... Perhaps ya missed it! ;D

Originally posted (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=28923&start=105#p373149) on 09 Aug 2010:
Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "DannyB II"
Jeesh, this is all great and what not but your posts are almost a year old and what the hell does any of this have to do with the TTI. As written on the home page of Fornits.
Oh, that's right Ursus is off on one of his, Chronicles of Blarnia, well I sure do hope your entertained.
Oh, I think it has quite a lot to do with the TTI. There's more than a few of the same methodologies used ... when it comes to getting folks to give up their critical reasoning skills and "follow the leader."

I'm guessing you don't agree, and it's certainly within your rights to opine that-a-way. :D
[/list]

OK I don't get it, please help me out. I asked a question and you sent me to a different poster that asked a question that somewhat resembles my question.
I am seriously asking a question, why are you cataloging all this material??
You have been redundant with your postings and this incident happened a year ago.
Does fornits have a purpose for all this information?
I will say this, you really did not answer Danny's question nor mine in so far as Fornits need for this information, is fornits going to move into the adult special workshop arena.
I have no judgment on this either way. I am not looking for confrontation, please I am just asking thoughtful questions, for my general knowledge.
Thanks for answering any questions, you can.

Quote from: "T-Rex"

Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "T-Rex"
Not to be confrontational but what is the purpose of posting a incident that happened over a year ago, we are well aware of the story going back to your first posting. Is this for archival reasons for this Web Site. Some of the posting are redundant stories copied by the same poster, Ursus.
I am confused.
See the following previous post, just a few back... Perhaps ya missed it! ;D

Originally posted (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=28923&start=105#p373149) on 09 Aug 2010:
Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "DannyB II"
Jeesh, this is all great and what not but your posts are almost a year old and what the hell does any of this have to do with the TTI. As written on the home page of Fornits.
Oh, that's right Ursus is off on one of his, Chronicles of Blarnia, well I sure do hope your entertained.
Oh, I think it has quite a lot to do with the TTI. There's more than a few of the same methodologies used ... when it comes to getting folks to give up their critical reasoning skills and "follow the leader."

I'm guessing you don't agree, and it's certainly within your rights to opine that-a-way. :D
[/list]
OK I don't get it, please help me out. I asked a question and you sent me to a different poster that asked a question that somewhat resembles my question.
I am seriously asking a question, why are you cataloging all this material??
You have been redundant with your postings and this incident happened a year ago.
Does fornits have a purpose for all this information?
I will say this, you really did not answer Danny's question nor mine in so far as Fornits need for this information, is fornits going to move into the adult special workshop arena.
I have no judgment on this either way. I am not looking for confrontation, please I am just asking thoughtful questions, for my general knowledge.
Thanks for answering any questions, you can.

Actually, I think I answered Danny's question quite well. It is certainly your and Danny's prerogative to disagree with my take on that issue. However, just because you don't like or agree with my answer ... doesn't mean that the question was not addressed.

See also Buzz's post in the Suicide thread, emphasis added:

Originally posted (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=30920&p=373983#p373894) on 16 Aug 2010:

Quote from: "BuzzKill"

Understanding LGAT, what it is, how it works and why it is so dangerous, is very important to understanding how some of these programs operate and grow. Its covered pretty well in the book: Cults in our Midst. There is quite a bit on Rick Ross' web site too. ISAC used to have a bunch of links on the topic. I guess someone needs to try and recreate that links resource.

[/list]

As far as posting articles is concerned, I'm just doing my wee part for the Cassandra Project (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/search.php?keywords=cassandra+project&terms=all&author=&sc=1&sf=all&sr=posts&sk=t&sd=d&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search), that's all... ;D

So... I take it this wasn't the first time that folk were carted off to the emergency room from one of James "Death" Ray's "Spiritual Warrior" bake-offs!

[There are a ton of comments on this article, too many to post. I also suspect that they've been heavily moderated...]

-------------- • -------------- • --------------

The Arizona Republic
Resort near Sedona had previous sweat lodge incident (http://http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2009/10/14/20091014sweatlodgerecords1014-ON.html)

By JJ Hensley - Oct. 15, 2009 12:00 AM

The scene that unfolded outside a sweat lodge at a remote compound near Sedona was not the first time paramedics responded to one of James Arthur Ray's seminars at the Angel Valley Spiritual Retreat Center.

Records released Wednesday show firefighters also were called to the center for a sweat-lodge-related illness in mid-October 2005.

Amayra Hamilton, one of the retreat's owners, said it was another Ray retreat.

The records show paramedics treated a 42-year-old man who was unconscious after spending time in a sweat lodge. The man was taken to Verde Valley Medical Center about 20 minutes later. Hamilton said the man returned the next day.

As for the events that left two dead and four hospitalized last week, records that the Verde Valley Fire District released Wednesday depict a scene that tested the resources of the emergency responders in the Sedona area.

By the time the legion of ambulances, fire engines and helicopters reached the remote area at about 7:40 p.m. Thursday, emergency workers found "multiple people lying on the ground around a sweat lodge needing medical condition," according to reports.

In addition to two patients in cardiac arrest, some were lying on the ground unconscious and others were "walking around not feeling well," according to reports.

Kirby Brown, 38, of Westtown, N.Y., and James Shore, 40, of Milwaukee, were later pronounced dead at Verde Valley Medical Center. Services for both will be Saturday.

More people who were in the sweat lodge had moved to the retreat center's dining hall and, according to Angel Valley and Ray's spokesman, didn't need any medical attention. Eight of those people later went to emergency rooms in Sedona and Cottonwood after paramedics assessed them.

Others were feeling ill, but the doctor in charge of the outdoor triage scene determined that those who were not critical were "all becoming better fast" and instead recommended they call 911 or go to the hospital if they started to feel sick.

The reports didn't say what caused all of the people to get sick, although authorities have ruled out carbon monoxide poisoning. Investigators have said there were more than 60 people in the 415-square-foot enclosure.

Kim Moore of Verde Valley Ambulance Co. was one of the emergency-medical people called to the scene last week. She said one of her patients had burns. People didn't want to talk about what happened because the event was intended to be a personal spiritual experience.

"The people weren't talking about it, the ones who could talk," she said.

Ray stuck to his schedule of events this week. He told a Los Angeles-area seminar Tuesday night that his advisers told him not to, but he wanted to keep his commitments.

Ray had another seminar scheduled for Wednesday and also was scheduled to begin his two-day World Wealth Summit in San Diego on Friday. His Web site says the two-day event costs nearly $1,000. Authorities said people at the Sedona event paid more than $9,000 for the five days of lectures and exercises that culminated with the sweat-lodge event.

Howard Bragman, Ray's spokesman, said Ray wouldn't comment on the ongoing investigation.

"There's more questions than answers right now," he said.

Of the four people hospitalized after Thursday's events, two remained at Flagstaff Medical Center on Wednesday afternoon, with one patient in good condition and one in critical condition.

The family of Liz Neuman released a statement that said she remained in a coma in critical condition.

"Liz is still fighting hard and her family asks for everyone to keep her in their thoughts and prayers," according to the statement.

Copyright © 2010, azcentral.com.

Ursus,
I am not disagreeing with what you are doing here or on any other thread my question is why are you doing the posting. Is this something that goes into a archive, wiki, or whatever. I really don't know. I have never asked the question before so I thought I would ask now.
I am genuinely interested.

Quote from: "T-Rex"

Ursus,
I am not disagreeing with what you are doing here or on any other thread my question is why are you doing the posting. Is this something that goes into a archive, wiki, or whatever. I really don't know. I have never asked the question before so I thought I would ask now.
I am genuinely interested.

And I thought I had addressed your question in my post (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=28923&p=374069#p374015) above. If you are asking about the organization of such material within this website, etc., you'd best take up such questions with Ginger...

Quote from: "Ursus"

Quote from: "T-Rex"
Ursus,
I am not disagreeing with what you are doing here or on any other thread my question is why are you doing the posting. Is this something that goes into a archive, wiki, or whatever. I really don't know. I have never asked the question before so I thought I would ask now.
I am genuinely interested.
And I thought I had addressed your question in my post (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=28923&p=374069#p374015) above. If you are asking about the organization of such material within this website, etc., you'd best take up such questions with Ginger...

I don't know if you actually stay up at night and practice being a dumbass but your darn good at it. Boy I bet you get a big woody just being as stubborn as you can be.
Once again, for you dumbass....no need to answer, just want to say it.
WHY DO YOU POST ALL THE SHIT YOU DO EVERYDAY???

Quote from: "DannyB II"

Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "T-Rex"
Ursus,
I am not disagreeing with what you are doing here or on any other thread my question is why are you doing the posting. Is this something that goes into a archive, wiki, or whatever. I really don't know. I have never asked the question before so I thought I would ask now.
I am genuinely interested.
And I thought I had addressed your question in my post (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=28923&p=374069#p374015) above. If you are asking about the organization of such material within this website, etc., you'd best take up such questions with Ginger...
I don't know if you actually stay up at night and practice being a dumbass but your darn good at it. Boy I bet you get a big woody just being as stubborn as you can be.
Once again, for you dumbass....no need to answer, just want to say it.
WHY DO YOU POST ALL THE SHIT YOU DO EVERYDAY???

Lol, Danny... Such vitriol! Do you really get that hot and bothered 'bout somebody's posts ... that have nothing to do with you?

Or... perhaps they do. In addition to being a diehard fan of the Mankind Project, do you also perchance subscribe to James "Death" Ray's brand of "spiritual warrioring?"

Quote

Ursus wrote:
Lol, Danny... Such vitriol! Do you really get that hot and bothered 'bout somebody's posts ... that have nothing to do with you?
Or... perhaps they do. In addition to being a diehard fan of the Mankind Project, do you also perchance subscribe to James "Death" Ray's brand of "spiritual warrioring?"

You do understand how stupid this post of your sounds. You started the threads and you post on them everyday.

I now have nothing to do with what you post, HHhhhhmmmmmm. Wow your universe is growing everyday.

The Daily Courier
10/15/2009 3:46:00 PM

Sweat Lodge deaths now a homicide case (http://http://www.dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=91&subsectionID=148&articleID=73486)
By Lisa Irish · The Daily Courier

The investigation into the two deaths and numerous injuries that occurred during a James Arthur Ray "Spiritual Warrior" seminar at the Angel Valley Retreat near Sedona has turned from a death investigation into a homicide investigation, said Yavapai County Sheriff Steve Waugh said.

"Because of information that we have obtained from interviews from participants in this most recent "Spiritual Warrior" seminar and from other past participants in them, we have elevated the investigation from an accidental death investigation to a homicide investigation," Waugh said.

Sheriff's detectives executed search warrants earlier this week at James Ray International's offices in Carlsbad, Calif., with help from Carlsbad Police Department officers, Waugh said.

"Detectives when they exercised that search warrant were looking for medical information on participants of the current Spiritual Warrior event and also other previous events," Waugh said. "We're also trying to determine if documentation exists on how to construct sweat lodges and the proper use of those lodges. Additionally, documentation on whether participants were advised of the risks before or during the Spiritual Warrior program," Waugh said.

Waugh said investigators will focus on Ray and any other person who may have played a role in the deaths of James Shore, 40, of Milwaukee, Wis., and Kirby Brown, 38, of Westtown, New York.

Waugh said his office would like all participants who have knowledge of the Spiritual Warrior seminar at Angel Valley Retreat, or who have experienced something similar, to contact the Yavapai County Sheriff's Office by e-mail at http://www.ycsoaz.gov (http://www.ycsoaz.gov) or Yavapai Silent Witness 1-800-939-3232.

© Copyright 2010 Western News&Info, Inc.® The Daily Courier is the information source for Prescott area communities in Northern Arizona.

I admit that I almost attended a sweat lodge two weeks ago. Then, during lunch the day before, a friend that had attended two years prior told me not to go due to my medical problems. I immediately canceled!

I have adrenal problems, and had asked the "doctor" that ran it if I should do it. He said, "Why yes, I see no reason for you not to".

Two nights ago I investigated this "doctor" further. I read between the lines of his CV, and guess what I found? It appears that he has been kicked out of every residency program he ever attended. I had asked him about his latest move to the NE, and he me brushed me off. I now know. He obviously, was discovered to be a QUACK, and I was damn near a SUCKER! The guy that discouraged me from doing the sweat lodge had gotten ill during the one he attended. August in the Southwest is hotter than Hell! Why make it even hotter. I am embarrassed to admit any of this. I think I would do damn near anything to get off of my numerous meds I take daily, but I don't want to die doing it. I actually like life too much for that! On top of it current state of residence is a constant sweat lodge!

I am sick of hearing about herbs, potions, etc. What do people think meds are derived from? Simply, look at penicillin!

I think as we all read through these posts we should try to separate out the sweat lodge from the person running the sweat lodge. Sweat lodges themselves can be very therapeutic. We use to vacation on the Canadian border and would build a Sweat Lodge. We covered it in old blankets after the fire was really hot and filled it with stones. We were all teenagers for the most part and others who were vacationing and also some locals. We use to smoke and try to solve all the world’s problems. If we got too hot we would jump in the lake and then go back in the lodge. I remember feeling so good afterwards. We slept like babies.

Looking back the magical effect was probably caused by heat, a lack of oxygen to the brain along with getting high.

I could see how someone would try to capitalize on that and try to make a buck, but I think this James Ray guy showed us all that there needs to be some controls placed around places like this. Its scary how people like him can get so many others to follow his directions like sheep.

...

Quote from: "Whooter"

I think as we all read through these posts we should try to separate out the sweat lodge from the person running the sweat lodge. Sweat lodges themselves can be very therapeutic. We use to vacation on the Canadian border and would build a Sweat Lodge. We covered it in old blankets after the fire was really hot and filled it with stones. We were all teenagers for the most part and others who were vacationing and also some locals. We use to smoke and try to solve all the world’s problems. If we got too hot we would jump in the lake and then go back in the lodge. I remember feeling so good afterwards. We slept like babies.

Looking back the magical effect was probably caused by heat, a lack of oxygen to the brain along with getting high.

I could see how someone would try to capitalize on that and try to make a buck, but I think this James Ray guy showed us all that there needs to be some controls placed around places like this. Its scary how people like him can get so many others to follow his directions like sheep.

Yes, but that's not what we're dealing with here. A simple sweat lodge without the psycho-babble LGAT bullshit isn't inherently dangerous, provided they have qualified medical help in case of heatstroke or the like. Just as there is a difference between a traditional boarding school or summer camp and what the TTI does. Get rid of the mindfuck and traditional boarding schools or regular summer camps aren't systemically harmful. Amazing! ::)

Quote from: "Anne Bonney"

Quote from: "Whooter"
I think as we all read through these posts we should try to separate out the sweat lodge from the person running the sweat lodge. Sweat lodges themselves can be very therapeutic. We use to vacation on the Canadian border and would build a Sweat Lodge. We covered it in old blankets after the fire was really hot and filled it with stones. We were all teenagers for the most part and others who were vacationing and also some locals. We use to smoke and try to solve all the world’s problems. If we got too hot we would jump in the lake and then go back in the lodge. I remember feeling so good afterwards. We slept like babies.

Looking back the magical effect was probably caused by heat, a lack of oxygen to the brain along with getting high.

I could see how someone would try to capitalize on that and try to make a buck, but I think this James Ray guy showed us all that there needs to be some controls placed around places like this. Its scary how people like him can get so many others to follow his directions like sheep.

Yes, but that's not what we're dealing with here. A simple sweat lodge without the psycho-babble LGAT bullshit isn't inherently dangerous, provided they have qualified medical help in case of heatstroke or the like. Just as there is a difference between a traditional boarding school or summer camp and what the TTI does. Get rid of the mindfuck and traditional boarding schools or regular summer camps aren't systemically harmful. Amazing! ::)

Anne, do you really know what is happening at a sweat??? Any idea????? Please, tell me your not just intellectualizing this whole experience with James Ray against a experience you had over 30 years ago. Is this all you got??
Honestly if you can be fair, you really don't know.

Quote from: "DannyB II"

Anne, do you really know what is happening at a sweat??? Any idea????? Please, tell me your not just intellectualizing this whole experience with James Ray against a experience you had over 30 years ago. Is this all you got??
Honestly if you can be fair, you really don't know.

Yes, Danny.....it's more of that "fancy book lernin'" that you seem to have so much of a problem with and apparently avoid like the plague.

Damn readers!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :twofinger: :twofinger:

Quote from: "Anne Bonney"

Quote from: "Whooter"
I think as we all read through these posts we should try to separate out the sweat lodge from the person running the sweat lodge. Sweat lodges themselves can be very therapeutic. We use to vacation on the Canadian border and would build a Sweat Lodge. We covered it in old blankets after the fire was really hot and filled it with stones. We were all teenagers for the most part and others who were vacationing and also some locals. We use to smoke and try to solve all the world’s problems. If we got too hot we would jump in the lake and then go back in the lodge. I remember feeling so good afterwards. We slept like babies.

Looking back the magical effect was probably caused by heat, a lack of oxygen to the brain along with getting high.

I could see how someone would try to capitalize on that and try to make a buck, but I think this James Ray guy showed us all that there needs to be some controls placed around places like this. Its scary how people like him can get so many others to follow his directions like sheep.

Yes, but that's not what we're dealing with here. A simple sweat lodge without the psycho-babble LGAT bullshit isn't inherently dangerous, provided they have qualified medical help in case of heatstroke or the like. Just as there is a difference between a traditional boarding school or summer camp and what the TTI does. Get rid of the mindfuck and traditional boarding schools or regular summer camps aren't systemically harmful. Amazing! ::)

That was exactly my point. We need to separate out the sweat lodge form the people that run it. There is nothing wrong with the sweat lodge itself. We use to do it as kids. Its people that try to make a buck off it that screw it up.

...

Sweat this, dirtbag.

Quote from: "Dysfunction Junction"

Well, there you have it. TheWho confesses to his deep self-loathing, while under the impression he can blame it on RB. (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=16007&start=3915#p335465)

Quote from: "TheWho"
Quote from: "Guest"
Quote from: "TheWho"
Hmmm, DJ has a point. What if RobertBruce is expressing this sickness of his outside of the internet where he is not just using aliases like TheWho and Little cats. At least if Bruce is contained to forums he cannot really hurt anyone. If Dysfunctions diagnosis is correct Bruce could be a danger to neighborhood children as well as family members.

It sickens me to think that this trolling is all just TheWho's transeference of his own twisted ideations onto RB. If you read TheWho's posts and understand he's revealing his innermost problems and thoughts it's very disturbing.

It seemed to all come out under TheWho postings. Somehow I think this was healing for RobertBruce to get this sickness out this way. But it has continued for years. Lots of self hatred is evident.

You're a sick freak.

Quote from: "Whooter"

Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "Whooter"
I think as we all read through these posts we should try to separate out the sweat lodge from the person running the sweat lodge. Sweat lodges themselves can be very therapeutic. We use to vacation on the Canadian border and would build a Sweat Lodge. We covered it in old blankets after the fire was really hot and filled it with stones. We were all teenagers for the most part and others who were vacationing and also some locals. We use to smoke and try to solve all the world’s problems. If we got too hot we would jump in the lake and then go back in the lodge. I remember feeling so good afterwards. We slept like babies.

Looking back the magical effect was probably caused by heat, a lack of oxygen to the brain along with getting high.

I could see how someone would try to capitalize on that and try to make a buck, but I think this James Ray guy showed us all that there needs to be some controls placed around places like this. Its scary how people like him can get so many others to follow his directions like sheep.

Yes, but that's not what we're dealing with here. A simple sweat lodge without the psycho-babble LGAT bullshit isn't inherently dangerous, provided they have qualified medical help in case of heatstroke or the like. Just as there is a difference between a traditional boarding school or summer camp and what the TTI does. Get rid of the mindfuck and traditional boarding schools or regular summer camps aren't systemically harmful. Amazing! ::)

That was exactly my point. We need to separate out the sweat lodge form the people that run it. There is nothing wrong with the sweat lodge itself. We use to do it as kids. Its people that try to make a buck off it that screw it up.....

.....by using the psycho-babble LGAT bullshit. Just like programs.

Anne, that was my point. I came home to find out that the guy running the sweat lodge was barely a doctor. It had taken him over thirty years and lots of states to finish his training. Do I want to do a sweat lodge with this guy? HELL NO! I don't trust anything about him anymore!

Quote from: "Anne Bonney"

.....by using the psycho-babble LGAT bullshit. Just like programs.

Even if it isnt psycho-babble LGAT stuff I think that the person running it needs to use a little common sense and allow people to leave and get hydrated or go to the bathroom when needed. To force them to stay in there for long period of time isnt good. When we were younger we could stay in there for hours. But now I wouldn't last 20 minutes probably. So you need to have someone who knows what they are doing and look at each individual differently.

...

Quote from: "Anne Bonney"

Quote from: "DannyB II"

Anne, do you really know what is happening at a sweat??? Any idea????? Please, tell me your not just intellectualizing this whole experience with James Ray against a experience you had over 30 years ago. Is this all you got??
Honestly if you can be fair, you really don't know.

Yes, Danny.....it's more of that "fancy book lernin'" that you seem to have so much of a problem with and apparently avoid like the plague.

Damn readers!

Well, then why don't you sit back and learn. Instead of running your mouth about something you have no experience.

Quote from: "Dysfunction Junction"

Sweat this, dirtbag.

Quote from: "Dysfunction Junction"
Well, there you have it. TheWho confesses to his deep self-loathing, while under the impression he can blame it on RB. (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=16007&start=3915#p335465)

Quote from: "TheWho"
Quote from: "Guest"
Quote from: "TheWho"
Hmmm, DJ has a point. What if RobertBruce is expressing this sickness of his outside of the internet where he is not just using aliases like TheWho and Little cats. At least if Bruce is contained to forums he cannot really hurt anyone. If Dysfunctions diagnosis is correct Bruce could be a danger to neighborhood children as well as family members.

It sickens me to think that this trolling is all just TheWho's transeference of his own twisted ideations onto RB. If you read TheWho's posts and understand he's revealing his innermost problems and thoughts it's very disturbing.

It seemed to all come out under TheWho postings. Somehow I think this was healing for RobertBruce to get this sickness out this way. But it has continued for years. Lots of self hatred is evident.

You're a sick freak.

DJ, you don't need to follow Whooter like your a tick on his ass. You are polluting this thread with your fanatical rubbish.
Get off the thread or stay on topic.

Quote from: "DannyB II"

Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "DannyB II"

Anne, do you really know what is happening at a sweat??? Any idea????? Please, tell me your not just intellectualizing this whole experience with James Ray against a experience you had over 30 years ago. Is this all you got??
Honestly if you can be fair, you really don't know.

Yes, Danny.....it's more of that "fancy book lernin'" that you seem to have so much of a problem with and apparently avoid like the plague.

Damn readers!

Well, then why don't you sit back and learn. Instead of running your mouth about something you have no experience.

Assuming facts not in evidence.

Quote from: "Anne Bonney"

Quote from: "DannyB II"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "DannyB II"

Anne, do you really know what is happening at a sweat??? Any idea????? Please, tell me your not just intellectualizing this whole experience with James Ray against a experience you had over 30 years ago. Is this all you got??
Honestly if you can be fair, you really don't know.

Yes, Danny.....it's more of that "fancy book lernin'" that you seem to have so much of a problem with and apparently avoid like the plague.

Damn readers!

Well, then why don't you sit back and learn. Instead of running your mouth about something you have no experience.

Assuming facts not in evidence.

I am not assuming anything. I have read enough of your posts to know. Please spare me the lawyer talk your not one. "That is a fact presented as evidence".

Quote from: "DannyB II"

I am not assuming anything. I have read enough of your posts to know. Please spare me the lawyer talk your not one. "That is a fact presented as evidence".

Poor thing..........Here, maybe you need the definition of what it means to assume:

as·sume
? ?/??sum/ Show Spelled [uh-soom] Show IPA verb, -sumed, -sum·ing.
–verb (used with object)
1.
to take for granted or without proof; suppose; postulate; posit: to assume that everyone wants peace.
2.
to take upon oneself; undertake: to assume an obligation.

Quote from: "Anne Bonney"

Quote from: "DannyB II"
I am not assuming anything. I have read enough of your posts to know. Please spare me the lawyer talk your not one. "That is a fact presented as evidence".

Poor thing..........Here, maybe you need the definition of what it means to assume:

as·sume
? ?/??sum/ Show Spelled [uh-soom] Show IPA verb, -sumed, -sum·ing.
–verb (used with object)
1.
to take for granted or without proof; suppose; postulate; posit: to assume that everyone wants peace.
2.
to take upon oneself; undertake: to assume an obligation.

Anne, many Straight folk who know you said, "she is a stubborn ignorant fool but don't mind her", I said at that time, "no I will assume she is flexible and understanding. Well as time has passed, I have come to know you post about topics with authority you have very little actual knowledge and when busted concerning your ignorance, you become stubborn and start calling people names.
This is what weknow about you, Anne.

Quote from: "DannyB II"

Anne, many Straight folk who know you said, "she is a stubborn ignorant fool but don't mind her",

:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:

Nice try though.

Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010

Quote from: "Anne Bonney"

Quote from: "DannyB II"

Anne, many Straight folk who know you said, "she is a stubborn ignorant fool but don't mind her",

:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:

Nice try though.

Anne, trust me unlike you I have no reason to lie. You are not well liked over there on the other site and you know this.

Quote from: "Joel"

Quote
Anne, many Straight folk who know you said, "she is a stubborn ignorant fool but don't mind her", I said at that time, "no I will assume she is flexible and understanding. Well as time has passed, I have come to know you post about topics with authority you have very little actual knowledge and when busted concerning your ignorance, you become stubborn. Start calling people names and trying to insult them.
This is what weknow about you, Anne.

Danny is your club foot in your mouth again? :D

How the hell would you know. When have you ever been been around Straight Folk unless it was here. Anne will not even venture certain places where there are Straight people because they will rip her head off.

Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010

Quote from: "DannyB II"

Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "DannyB II"

Anne, many Straight folk who know you said, "she is a stubborn ignorant fool but don't mind her",

:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:

Nice try though.

Anne, trust me unlike you I have no reason to lie. You are not well liked over there on the other site and you know this.

Aw, sweetie....... :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:

Seriously, just give it up. You're just embarrassing yourself.

Quote from: "Anne Bonney"

Quote from: "DannyB II"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "DannyB II"

Anne, many Straight folk who know you said, "she is a stubborn ignorant fool but don't mind her",

:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:

Nice try though.

Anne, trust me unlike you I have no reason to lie. You are not well liked over there on the other site and you know this.

Aw, sweetie....... :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:

Seriously, just give it up. You're just embarrassing yourself.

Well here is a interesting point, you are not disagreeing with me, at all. So keep laughing it off. I would be embarrassed also. Emoticans and sarcastic phrases usally help divert attention away.
Let me help, Anne. You are not well liked amongst your peers from Straight. Am I wrong???

Quote from: "Joel"

Quote from: "DannyB II"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "DannyB II"

Anne, many Straight folk who know you said, "she is a stubborn ignorant fool but don't mind her",

:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:

Nice try though.

Anne, trust me unlike you I have no reason to lie. You are not well liked over there on the other site and you know this.

Danny is falling back on staffer tactics. The staff provokes an emotional reaction to gain control over the said person. Moreover this is common throughout the troubled teen industry. Danny did you learn this from Joe Ricci at ELAN, your parents or in the Marine Corps? :D

NO. Actually it was Aaron and your mother, I learned this from. Remember when I talked with a member of your family a while back. How else did Aaron and yourself end up in the TTI.

Quote from: "DannyB II"

Let me help, Anne. You are not well liked amongst your peers from Straight. Am I wrong???

Yes, you are wrong. I can think of two people out of the approximately 100 that I've met that I had any kind of clashes with and that was because they were heavily into AA and, well...you know my feelings on the Stepcraft culture.

I'm starting to feel sorry for you DannyBoi. Poor dear.

Want some more emoticons? Here.....

:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :rocker: :rocker: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :rasta: :rasta: :rasta: :rasta: :rasta: :rasta: :seg: :seg: :seg:

Feel better now?

Quote from: "DannyB II"

Quote from: "Joel"
Quote from: "DannyB II"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "DannyB II"

Anne, many Straight folk who know you said, "she is a stubborn ignorant fool but don't mind her",

:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:

Nice try though.

Anne, trust me unlike you I have no reason to lie. You are not well liked over there on the other site and you know this.

Danny is falling back on staffer tactics. The staff provokes an emotional reaction to gain control over the said person. Moreover this is common throughout the troubled teen industry. Danny did you learn this from Joe Ricci at ELAN, your parents or in the Marine Corps? :D

NO. Actually it was Aaron and your mother, I learned this from. Remember when I talked with a member of your family a while back. How else did Aaron and yourself end up in the TTI.

Claiming you can speak to the dead now? Must have fallen off the wagon, again.

Quote from: "Che Gookin"

Quote from: "DannyB II"
NO. Actually it was Aaron and your mother, I learned this from. Remember when I talked with a member of your family a while back. How else did Aaron and yourself end up in the TTI.

Claiming you can speak to the dead now? Must have fallen off the wagon, again.

:eek: WTF?

As he is claiming to have learned something from my mother I can only suspect he's thinking he is speaking with the dead. My mother died of cancer when I was 12. Not sure how he thinks he's learned a damn thing from her.

Knowing Danno it'll be a long, poorly written, and semi-moronic response.

Quote from: "Che Gookin"

As he is claiming to have learned something from my mother I can only suspect he's thinking he is speaking with the dead. My mother died of cancer when I was 12. Not sure how he thinks he's learned a damn thing from her.

Knowing Danno it'll be a long, poorly written, and semi-moronic response.

Wow...it's like Whooter and DannyBoi are having a pissing contest to see how low the blows they through around can get.

I'm really sorry about you losing your mom at such a young age.

Quote from: "Anne Bonney"

Quote from: "DannyB II"
Let me help, Anne. You are not well liked amongst your peers from Straight. Am I wrong???

Yes, you are wrong. I can think of two people out of the approximately 100 that I've met that I had any kind of clashes with and that was because they were heavily into AA and, well...you know my feelings on the Stepcraft culture.

I'm starting to feel sorry for you DannyBoi. Poor dear.

Want some more emoticons? Here...

Anne your lying, lets you and I take a trip over to your Straight site and ask. I think if you are unaware (which your not) folks will let you know.

Quote from: "DannyB II"

Anne your lying, lets you and I take a trip over to your Straight site and ask. I think if you are unaware (which your not) folks will let you know.

Bring her on over there, Danny, thatta boy!! ::)

:ftard: ::evil:: :ftard: ::evil:: :ftard: ::evil:: :nods:

:feedtrolls: :feedtrolls:

:roflmao:

Quote from: "DannyB II"

Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "DannyB II"
Let me help, Anne. You are not well liked amongst your peers from Straight. Am I wrong???

Yes, you are wrong. I can think of two people out of the approximately 100 that I've met that I had any kind of clashes with and that was because they were heavily into AA and, well...you know my feelings on the Stepcraft culture.

I'm starting to feel sorry for you DannyBoi. Poor dear.

Want some more emoticons? Here...

Anne your lying, lets you and I take a trip over to your Straight site and ask. I think if you are unaware (which your not) folks will let you know.

DannyBoi, you're nothing more than a gnat, annoying the hell out of pretty much everyone here. "My" Straight site?? I don't have a Straight site and the only other one I am aware of, well I haven't posted there in a few years IIRC. But, if it makes you feel better to believe that, you go right ahead sweetheart. Joel called it (I think it was Joel)....this is nothing more than your usual Staff Syndrome rearing it's ugly, ugly head. Again.

Run along now to your sandbox little one. I'm sure Mommy will be by soon enough to pay some attention to you.

Quote from: "Che Gookin"

As he is claiming to have learned something from my mother I can only suspect he's thinking he is speaking with the dead. My mother died of cancer when I was 12. Not sure how he thinks he's learned a damn thing from her.

Knowing Danno it'll be a long, poorly written, and semi-moronic response.

Well then when your brother wants to talk about my mom who passed away, jack slap his stupid ass.

Quote from: "Dr Fucktard"

Quote from: "DannyB II"
Anne your lying, lets you and I take a trip over to your Straight site and ask. I think if you are unaware (which your not) folks will let you know.

Bring her on over there, Danny, thatta boy!! ::)

:ftard: ::evil:: :ftard: ::evil:: :ftard: ::evil:: :nods:

:feedtrolls: :feedtrolls:

:roflmao:

:rofl: :rofl: :cheers: ;)

Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010

Quote from: "Anne Bonney"

Run along now to your sandbox little one. I'm sure Mommy will be by soon enough to pay some attention to you.

I like the sound of this Anne, you dirty girl. :nods:

Y'know, Anne.. I've been thinking...we could really use a girl with your sort of moxie here at SIBS. (A couple of my female staff quit on me recently when they found out about my Philippina hooker.. Oops! :wall: ) :seg: Anyway, should you decide to take me up on it, please don't hesitate to get back to me! Gotta run, there's been another report of an escape attempt..and I like to take care of these cases personally! :whip: ::evil::

Quote from: "Joel"

Staffers have several ways of controlling people whether it be through provoking emotional reactions { like Danny is doing }

Well, he's trying but failing. I don't think he realizes that quite a few that post over there, are also here. :seg:

Quote

or creating a chaotic environment where peers attack each other verbally/physically. He is notorious for that on fornits. Danny acts out because his basic needs aren't being met, yes? I'm sure he'll chime in to tell us to fuck off. [/color][/b] :D

No doubt.

Quote from: "Anne Bonney"

Quote from: "DannyB II"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "DannyB II"
Let me help, Anne. You are not well liked amongst your peers from Straight. Am I wrong???

Yes, you are wrong. I can think of two people out of the approximately 100 that I've met that I had any kind of clashes with and that was because they were heavily into AA and, well...you know my feelings on the Stepcraft culture.

I'm starting to feel sorry for you DannyBoi. Poor dear.

Want some more emoticons? Here...

Anne your lying, lets you and I take a trip over to your Straight site and ask. I think if you are unaware (which your not) folks will let you know.

DannyBoi, you're nothing more than a gnat, annoying the hell out of pretty much everyone here. "My" Straight site?? I don't have a Straight site and the only other one I am aware of, well I haven't posted there in a few years IIRC. But, if it makes you feel better to believe that, you go right ahead sweetheart. Joel called it (I think it was Joel)....this is nothing more than your usual Staff Syndrome rearing it's ugly, ugly head. Again.

Run along now to your sandbox little one. I'm sure Mommy will be by soon enough to pay some attention to you.

No, Anne, I called you out on your inability to get along with anyone, you love confrontation. Yeah, staff syndrome, which ended at barely 19 years old. Nice try Anne. No one who really knows you likes you. You are a unforgiving, unrelenting brat that was kicked around and now must punish others. You are sick, you say you have been counseled, it does not show.
Stop harassing and abusing folks here. Many folks here are sick and tired of your bile being hurled at us. We are not your problem.
Anne you are not welcome on those other sites, that is why you are here. The only reason you have found success here is because folks like DJ are just as much a outcast as you are.
You are not radicals for this industry, you are the termites that continuously set us back by undermining are efforts to make us look credible.
Anne, find the time to get quiet and think about what I am saying. You know it to be true.

Quote from: "Anne Bonney"

Quote from: "Joel"
Staffers have several ways of controlling people whether it be through provoking emotional reactions { like Danny is doing }

Well, he's trying but failing. I don't think he realizes that quite a few that post over there, are also here. :seg:

Quote
or creating a chaotic environment where peers attack each other verbally/physically. He is notorious for that on fornits. Danny acts out because his basic needs aren't being met, yes? I'm sure he'll chime in to tell us to fuck off. [/color][/b] :D

No doubt.

You really are stupid or just dense. I know just about every poster from Straight, here on fornits. Talk with 10 -20 Straight folk on weekly to monthly bases from Atlanta to Tampa (where your from), so please Anne. If I have told you once or a hundred times, I don't say things that are not true.
Girl, you are not very well liked amongst your brethren and by all accounts here, it is understood.

Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010

Quote from: "DannyB II"

No, Anne, I called you out on your inability to get along with anyone, you love confrontation. Yeah, staff syndrome, which ended at barely 19 years old. Nice try Anne. No one who really knows you likes you. You are a unforgiving, unrelenting brat that was kicked around and now must punish others. You are sick, you say you have been counseled, it does not show.
Stop harassing and abusing folks here. Many folks here are sick and tired of your bile being hurled at us. We are not your problem.
Anne you are not welcome on those other sites, that is why you are here. The only reason you have found success here is because folks like DJ are just as much a outcast as you are.
You are not radicals for this industry, you are the termites that continuously set us back by undermining are efforts to make us look credible.
Anne, find the time to get quiet and think about what I am saying. You know it to be true.

:rofl: :rofl:

You really have no idea how much of a fool you're making of yourself, do you? You think you've latched onto something here....do you really not realize that I'm talking, at this very moment, with some of "those people"? Do you really not realize that some of "those people" are here as well?

Seriously, quit while you're behind. You're really terrible at this.

Quote from: "Anne Bonney"

Quote from: "DannyB II"
No, Anne, I called you out on your inability to get along with anyone, you love confrontation. Yeah, staff syndrome, which ended at barely 19 years old. Nice try Anne. No one who really knows you likes you. You are a unforgiving, unrelenting brat that was kicked around and now must punish others. You are sick, you say you have been counseled, it does not show.
Stop harassing and abusing folks here. Many folks here are sick and tired of your bile being hurled at us. We are not your problem.
Anne you are not welcome on those other sites, that is why you are here. The only reason you have found success here is because folks like DJ are just as much a outcast as you are.
You are not radicals for this industry, you are the termites that continuously set us back by undermining are efforts to make us look credible.
Anne, find the time to get quiet and think about what I am saying. You know it to be true.

:rofl: :rofl:

You really have no idea how much of a fool you're making of yourself, do you? You think you've latched onto something here....do you really not realize that I'm talking, at this very moment, with some of "those people"? Do you really not realize that some of "those people" are here as well?

Seriously, quit while you're behind. You're really terrible at this.

Anne, just like I said, you are either stupid or dense. No shit the folks who post here (not all) like you or put up with you. Most don't even bother with this site anymore and some post every once in a while.
What you underestimate is how many Straight Folk I know through many affiliations.
Here is how everyone knows you, "Oh the girl that put her ass out there". Yeah that's the one.

Quote from: "DannyB II"

Anne, just like I said, you are either stupid or dense. No shit the folks who post here (not all) like you or put up with you. Most don't even bother with this site anymore and some post every once in a while.
What you underestimate is how many Straight Folk I know through many affiliations.
Here is how everyone knows you, "Oh the girl that put her ass out there". Yeah that's the one.

Whatever makes you feel better babe.

So, what's your point in doing this then if not the Staff Syndrome? You're trying (and failing) to bully me or make me feel somehow hurt or inferior. Staff Syndrome indeed. G'head...keep proving us all right.

Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010

Quote from: "Joel"

Anne I think Danny perceives women are weak. Whereas Danny would back off from another male during a confrontation.

We've all seen him go after the women here, but you're right. He does back down from the guys. Wow...that must be some heavy duty insecurity there.

(http://http://inkville.typepad.com/.a/6a00e552233b8f88340133f03b3b84970b-800wi)

Quote from: "Joel"

Danny perceives women are weak. Whereas Danny would back off from a male during a confrontation. He will be back to bully you.

Geeesh, Joel, of all people to say that.

...

Whooter's minions are dropping away. Even Danny can only muster a half-hearted defense of his former-God Whooter. I am just glad to be here to witness this.

Quote from: "shaggys"

Whooter's minions are dropping away. Even Danny can only muster a half-hearted defense of his former-God Whooter. I am just glad to be here to witness this.

We must be entering yet another era. Hopefully the next one will be more improved than the last and people will have more tolerance towards those survivors who were helped by the industry, have positive stories and also tolerance towards proprogram people.

...

Quote from: "Anne Bonney"

Quote from: "DannyB II"

Anne, just like I said, you are either stupid or dense. No shit the folks who post here (not all) like you or put up with you. Most don't even bother with this site anymore and some post every once in a while.
What you underestimate is how many Straight Folk I know through many affiliations.
Here is how everyone knows you, "Oh the girl that put her ass out there". Yeah that's the one.

Whatever makes you feel better babe.

So, what's your point in doing this then if not the Staff Syndrome? You're trying (and failing) to bully me or make me feel somehow hurt or inferior. Staff Syndrome indeed. G'head...keep proving us all right.

No, Anne, what I am doing to you is exactly what you do to other posters on this web site. I am sticking up for them because apparently no one else will. Just because you and your cohorts do not like certain people here, y'all seem to think you can abuse them anyway you want. Ya know what this reminds me of, I had a black friend at Elan called Don Hampton, we used to get into it sometimes, we both boxed and did martial arts together in Portland Me. At the YMCA one evening we were sparring and one thing led to another and for about 2 mins. we went all out, to exhaustion. Right after the physical confrontation we started calling one another names, he ended up calling me a racist (in anger, he did not mean it)well I told him he was racist. He came back we a interesting statement he said, "he could not be racist because he was black, the crimes had been committed against his ancestors. This is how I view most of you folks here, concerning abuse. You really do not believe you are abusing Whooter, Suck-IT, and others when your doing it. It does not make a difference what there doing, it is what your doing and the motive behind it that is disturbing to me. Most folks just ignore Suck-it and Whooter, the ones who don't, not all...you know who I am talking about, you are abusive.
Back to the subject.
Well I am here to point out your short coming and parade you down the isle and see how you like it, Anne.
I read your posts on the Hyde Forum from years past, Anne you were brutal on some of those kids, you harassed Tim, you never stood up for Morgan openly with conviction and on and on.
I do not like people like you, Joel, DJ and others. You are nothing more then the staff and owners we left behind, you abuse and subject people here to demeaning ridicule at your whim.
Then cry foul when it is done to you. OH, whoa is me I am a survivor, your a ex-staffer, your suffering from a syndrome boo-hoo. You fuckers are sick, I mean it.
You are inferior, trust me on that one and you have no one to blame but yourself. You remain stuck in a time warp like so many here and act out feeling of 30 years ago. I am not your problem, I'm just pointing out a problem you folks have.
Anne, you and I both know this type of confrontational behavior does not help you on your journey to peace. Belittling and harassing people is not good for the soul.

Quote from: "Joel"

Quote
No, Anne, I called you out on your inability to get along with anyone, you love confrontation. Yeah, staff syndrome, which ended at barely 19 years old. Nice try Anne. No one who really knows you likes you. You are a unforgiving, unrelenting brat that was kicked around and now must punish others. You are sick, you say you have been counseled, it does not show.

Stop harassing and abusing folks here. Many folks here are sick and tired of your bile being hurled at us. We are not your problem. Anne you are not welcome on those other sites, that is why you are here. The only reason you have found success here is because folks like DJ are just as much a outcast as you are.

You are not radicals for this industry, you are the termites that continuously set us back by undermining are efforts to make us look credible. Anne, find the time to get quiet and think about what I am saying. You know it to be true.

Danny you have moved on to someone who you "perceive as weak." It appears to people that you think women are weak and easy to mentally control. These are signs of men who abuse their wives. Stalking is also another sign. The bully tactics and humiliation are also signs.

Joel, getting down and sucking Anne's ass is a sign that you are a pussy, so like your brother always tells you keep your faggotry to yourself. You are not a counselor or anything similar, what you did do is harass young children while you ran them through a obstacle course. Please sit back and learn.

Quote from: "Whooter"

Quote from: "shaggys"
Whooter's minions are dropping away. Even Danny can only muster a half-hearted defense of his former-God Whooter. I am just glad to be here to witness this.

We must be entering yet another era. Hopefully the next one will be more improved than the last and people will have more tolerance towards those survivors who were helped by the industry, have positive stories and also tolerance towards proprogram people.

...

Whooter, we are still hanging. Suck-It got off track there, I still don't know what that was all about. Maybe it was all the pressure, he did have many valid points. His writing was incredible, liked how he expressed himself through his writings.
One thing though I need to say, we all need to stay above board and have a certain respect for fairness.
What Art put this Site through back at the beginning of the year was crazy, uncalled for. Suck-It was showing signs of this behavior, we can harass, abuse, ridicule, demean, poke fun of, post nasty things ect....but the integrity of the site can not be fucked with.
When we get down to it, even though in anger at times I have said different, this site does help people, mothers, fathers, siblings, and kids. I know this to be true. We can fight with one another but we can not undermine the foundation of this site.
I will not stand for that. Just making myself crystal clear.
My opinion.

Quote

Re: aparently, adults want to go to programs too

Postby Joel » Today, 6:19 pm
Danny perceives women are weak. Whereas Danny would back off from a male during a confrontation. He will be back to bully you.

Joel

Re: aparently, adults want to go to programs too

Postby Anne Bonney » Today, 6:25 pm

Joel wrote:Anne I think Danny perceives women are weak. Whereas Danny would back off from another male during a confrontation.

We've all seen him go after the women here, but you're right. He does back down from the guys. Wow...that must be some heavy duty insecurity there.

Image

Thank you for that little therapy session. Would have been much more effective if either one of you had any training in psychology, Joel shut up, were not talking about harassing young boys on a jaunt up Camp Yahoo Mountain, in Exeter R.I.

Quote from: "DannyB II"

You are nothing more then the staff and owners we left behind,

:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:

Wow. Cognitive dissonance all around tonight, huh Warrior Man? (you might have to look that one up. It's more of that fancy book lernin' stuff you don't like)

(http://http://skeptico.blogs.com/photos/uncategorized/pot_kettle.jpg)

Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010

Quote from: "DannyB II"

Quote
I am sticking up for them because apparently no one else will. Just because you and your cohorts do not like certain people here, y'all seem to think you can abuse them anyway you want.

The Who / Suck it and all his other alter egos don't need help..

Quote
you and I both know this type of confrontational behavior does not help you on your journey to peace. Belittling and harassing people is not good for the soul.

Then why do you continue to come here and harass Anne and other suvivors... there are plenty of other websites for you to go to and spew your hate ... preferrably go to a pro-program website... You are only here to battle with people, not to heal.

Quote from: "Joel"

I'm just calling it how I see it Danny. No, I don't intend to shut up. Obviously I struck a nerve. I am not the only one who notices you try and intimidate women. It doesn't take a degree in psychology to figure out your actions. Your actions towards Anne are similar of Men who abuse their wives. The verbal intimidation, stalking {which you've done} etc.

Well then keep drumming because your solo. Joel your not even with someone and neither is your brother. DUh.....I have been with two women in my life, one passed on and I am currently with the second. She has posted here and has had some serious comments for Anne and Felice. I/we have absolutely no respect for them then again I have showed no mercy on Ursus, Che, DJ, Paul (lill johnny) and yourself dickwad. I don't give a flying fuck what you think of me, I'll kick Annes ass as sure as I will kick your ass. Don't like it, take your balls and go home.
Don't like what I have to say about Anne, go back and read and you will see who started the vulgar deprecating verbal attacks. You have always seemed to have no memory.
Don't come around with some moronic psycho-babble, you know nothing about.
Keep trying your diversion Joel, sorry though (3) of us have our feet planted right on Anne's ass.
You were just a snack during intermission.

Bye Bye sissyboy.

Quote from: "DannyB II"

Quote from: "Joel"
I'm just calling it how I see it Danny. No, I don't intend to shut up. Obviously I struck a nerve. I am not the only one who notices you try and intimidate women. It doesn't take a degree in psychology to figure out your actions. Your actions towards Anne are similar of Men who abuse their wives. The verbal intimidation, stalking {which you've done} etc.

Well then keep drumming because your solo. Joel your not even with someone and neither is your brother. DUh.....I have been with two women in my life, one passed on and I am currently with the second. She has posted here and has had some serious comments for Anne and Felice. I/we have absolutely no respect for them then again I have showed no mercy on Ursus, Che, DJ, Paul (lill johnny) and yourself dickwad. I don't give a flying fuck what you think of me, I'll kick Annes ass as sure as I will kick your ass. Don't like it, take your balls and go home.
Don't like what I have to say about Anne, go back and read and you will see who started the vulgar deprecating verbal attacks. You have always seemed to have no memory.
Don't come around with some moronic psycho-babble, you know nothing about.
Keep trying your diversion Joel, sorry though (3) of us have our feet planted right on Anne's ass.
You were just a snack during intermission.

Bye Bye sissyboy.

Dude... You have some issues, if there was ever a person who needs some professional counseling that person is you... do you realize that you made a cyber-threat which is punishable by law..I would choose words wisely before posting as you could end up in jail...

Quote from: "Anne Bonney"

Quote from: "DannyB II"
You are nothing more then the staff and owners we left behind,

Wow. Cognitive dissonance all around tonight, huh Warrior Man? (you might have to look that one up. It's more of that fancy book lernin' stuff you don't like)

Anne, you know what is really sad is, you throw all these wonderful phrases around and you really aren't going anywhere with them. Two conflicting thoughts that are happening simultaneously, no one needs to look this up. Come on Anne, my para-legal who all of sudden has placed herself in the intellectual crowd.
Baby you do not have the hardware to be there. You have not earned it, your a clerk, "wannbe".
Hey, don't worry about cognitive dissonance right now, get your issue with detachment worked out first. So at least you have a shot at becoming focused. Get into the present of who you actually are instead of who you want to be.
Get back to me, please.
Ciao....

Quote from: "Botched Programming"

Dude... You have some issues, if there was ever a person who needs some professional counseling that person is you... do you realize that you made a cyber-threat which is punishable by law..I would choose words wisely before posting as you could end up in jail...

LOL, why do you keep telling everyone that they need counseling? You may want to look inward with this constant request.

...

Quote from: "Botched Programming"

Quote from: "DannyB II"
Quote from: "Joel"
I'm just calling it how I see it Danny. No, I don't intend to shut up. Obviously I struck a nerve. I am not the only one who notices you try and intimidate women. It doesn't take a degree in psychology to figure out your actions. Your actions towards Anne are similar of Men who abuse their wives. The verbal intimidation, stalking {which you've done} etc.

Well then keep drumming because your solo. Joel your not even with someone and neither is your brother. DUh.....I have been with two women in my life, one passed on and I am currently with the second. She has posted here and has had some serious comments for Anne and Felice. I/we have absolutely no respect for them then again I have showed no mercy on Ursus, Che, DJ, Paul (lill johnny) and yourself dickwad. I don't give a flying fuck what you think of me, I'll kick Annes ass as sure as I will kick your ass. Don't like it, take your balls and go home.
Don't like what I have to say about Anne, go back and read and you will see who started the vulgar deprecating verbal attacks. You have always seemed to have no memory.
Don't come around with some moronic psycho-babble, you know nothing about.
Keep trying your diversion Joel, sorry though (3) of us have our feet planted right on Anne's ass.
You were just a snack during intermission.

Bye Bye sissyboy.

Dude... You have some issues, if there was ever a person who needs some professional counseling that person is you... do you realize that you made a cyber-threat which is punishable by law..I would choose words wisely before posting as you could end up in jail...

Don't like it don't read my posts, asswipe.

Quote from: "DannyB II"

, I'll kick Annes ass as sure as I will kick your ass.

Well, aren't you the big man.

Like I said....g'head and just keep proving what everyone's been saying here about you. This isn't the first time you've threatened me or other women here. Do ya feel like a big boy now?

Quote from: "Whooter"

Quote from: "Botched Programming"

Dude... You have some issues, if there was ever a person who needs some professional counseling that person is you... do you realize that you made a cyber-threat which is punishable by law..I would choose words wisely before posting as you could end up in jail...

LOL, why do you keep telling everyone that they need counseling? You may want to look inward with this constant request.

...

Because you guys are belligerent... all the time on here trying to cause some kind of battle... Why don't you go to another website that is in group unison with the way you think... (The reason being you guys are belligerent) and people with this kind of condition could lead happy lives if they got the proper help.

Belligerent definition

(1) A belligerent is an individual, group, country or other entity which acts in a hostile manner, such as engaging in combat. Belligerent comes from Latin, literally meaning "to wage war".

Quote from: "DannyB II"

, I'll kick Annes ass as sure as I will kick your ass.

Is this part of your New Warrior Training?

:rofl:

Quote from: "DannyB II"

Don't like it don't read my posts, asswipe.

Post your vulgar display of immaturity on a different website... Don't need a survivor basher on a site that was meant to be for the good of survivors healing.. and spreading the truth about the abuse that was encountered in our stays at these facilities.

PS If you don't like what I say don't read my responses that I post on your threads... I still recommend you go see a professional and talk to them honestly about your obsession with being belligerent.

Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010

Quote from: "Botched Programming"

Quote from: "DannyB II"

Don't like it don't read my posts, asswipe.

Post your vulgar display of immaturity on a different website... Don't need a survivor basher on a site that was meant to be for the good of survivors healing.. and spreading the truth about the abuse that was encountered in our stays at these facilities.

PS If you don't like what I say don't read my responses that I post on your threads... I still recommend you go see a professional and talk to them honestly about your obsession with being belligerent.

And this obsession with beating up women. Must be part of his New Warrior Training. Weird stuff.

Quote from: "Botched Programming"

Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Botched Programming"

Dude... You have some issues, if there was ever a person who needs some professional counseling that person is you... do you realize that you made a cyber-threat which is punishable by law..I would choose words wisely before posting as you could end up in jail...

LOL, why do you keep telling everyone that they need counseling? You may want to look inward with this constant request.

...

Because you guys are belligerent... all the time on here trying to cause some kind of battle... Why don't you go to another website that is in group unison with the way you think... (The reason being you guys are belligerent) and people with this kind of condition could lead happy lives if they got the proper help.

Belligerent definition

(1) A belligerent is an individual, group, country or other entity which acts in a hostile manner, such as engaging in combat. Belligerent comes from Latin, literally meaning "to wage war".

It seems you are the one that feels threatened. I am okay just discussing the issues and having a chat or two. If I didnt like it here or didnt feel comfortable I would move on (any of us would). If there are people who want to seek therapy that is their business, I dont need to be involved or suggest they need it.

...

Quote from: "Whooter"

It seems you are the one that feels threatened.

Gee...I wonder why?

Quote from: "DannyB II"

Well then keep drumming because your solo. Joel your not even with someone and neither is your brother. DUh.....I have been with two women in my life, one passed on and I am currently with the second. She has posted here and has had some serious comments for Anne and Felice. I/we have absolutely no respect for them then again I have showed no mercy on Ursus, Che, DJ, Paul (lill johnny) and yourself dickwad I don't give a flying fuck what you think of me,. I'll kick Annes ass as sure as I will kick your ass. Don't like it, take your balls and go home.
Don't like what I have to say about Anne, go back and read and you will see who started the vulgar deprecating verbal attacks. You have always seemed to have no memory.
Don't come around with some moronic psycho-babble, you know nothing about.
Keep trying your diversion Joel, sorry though (3) of us have our feet planted right on Anne's ass.
You were just a snack during intermission.

Bye Bye sissyboy.

Quote from: "Joel"

* FWIW> I don't have anything to say to Whooter.

That is really funny. You should write something and then wait ten minutes and delete it, then write it again, then delete... then say:

"I dont have anything to say to Whooter"

You have been doing this for months Joel. Whats up with that? There is no way you can be Che's brother, he would kick your ass for acting that way.

...

Quote from: "Whooter"

Quote from: "Joel"

* FWIW> I don't have anything to say to Whooter.

That is really funny. You should write something and then wait ten minutes and delete it, then write it again, then delete... then say:

"I dont have anything to say to Whooter"

You have been doing this for months Joel. Whats up with that? There is no way you can be Che's brother, he would kick your ass for acting that way.

...

Hey, if you can ignore the questions about your post making fun of a survivors accounts of abuse and selectively reply to only the posts you feel you can refute, then Joel can delete what he wrote.

Quote from: "Anne Bonney"

Quote from: "Whooter"

It seems you are the one that feels threatened.

Gee...I wonder why?

Quote from: "DannyB II"
Well then keep drumming because your solo. Joel your not even with someone and neither is your brother. DUh.....I have been with two women in my life, one passed on and I am currently with the second. She has posted here and has had some serious comments for Anne and Felice. I/we have absolutely no respect for them then again I have showed no mercy on Ursus, Che, DJ, Paul (lill johnny) and yourself dickwad I don't give a flying fuck what you think of me,. I'll kick Annes ass as sure as I will kick your ass. Don't like it, take your balls and go home.
Don't like what I have to say about Anne, go back and read and you will see who started the vulgar deprecating verbal attacks. You have always seemed to have no memory.
Don't come around with some moronic psycho-babble, you know nothing about.
Keep trying your diversion Joel, sorry though (3) of us have our feet planted right on Anne's ass.
You were just a snack during intermission.

Bye Bye sissyboy.

What you got to say about your Danny boy... Making threats... you would recommend putting a kid in treatment if he did this... what's the difference in me telling you and him you need it... people must have already mentioned that's why you are getting defensive..

Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010

Quote from: "Joel"

Quote
I'll kick Annes ass as sure as I will kick your ass.

There are ways to suppress freedom of speech. Physical violence, verbal threats, sexual harassment {stalking} and other means. People who threaten women cower when confronted about the said threats. I'm 100% certain Danny would do that outside of fornits. Obviously he isn't on this website. :D

One of the other times he threatened me, he said that he was near the town where I live at the time. So, ummmm - should something suddenly uh, happen to me....y'all know where to send the cops.

:eek: :deal: :nods:

Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010

You people do realize that absolutely nothing will ever be resolved here?

best to go with the old stand by:

fuck you danny..

and move on. You dopes are giving this gerbil too much of your bandwidth. Go mess with a program, seriously, go mess with a program today.

Quote from: "Anne Bonney"

Quote from: "Joel"
Quote
I'll kick Annes ass as sure as I will kick your ass.

There are ways to suppress freedom of speech. Physical violence, verbal threats, sexual harassment {stalking} and other means. People who threaten women cower when confronted about the said threats. I'm 100% certain Danny would do that outside of fornits. Obviously he isn't on this website. :D

One of the other times he threatened me, he said that he was near the town where I live at the time. So, ummmm - should something suddenly uh, happen to me....y'all know where to send the cops.

:eek: :deal: :nods:

The worst Danno will do is try to take you to an AA meeting, which in itself is pretty mean. Hardly life threatening though. Be the only reported case of kidnapping in history to be resolved by checking out all the local AA meeting spots.

Quote from: "Anne Bonney"

Quote from: "Whooter"

It seems you are the one that feels threatened.

Gee...I wonder why?

Quote from: "DannyB II"
Well then keep drumming because your solo. Joel your not even with someone and neither is your brother. DUh.....I have been with two women in my life, one passed on and I am currently with the second. She has posted here and has had some serious comments for Anne and Felice. I/we have absolutely no respect for them then again I have showed no mercy on Ursus, Che, DJ, Paul (lill johnny) and yourself dickwad I don't give a flying fuck what you think of me,. I'll kick Annes ass as sure as I will kick your ass. Don't like it, take your balls and go home.
Don't like what I have to say about Anne, go back and read and you will see who started the vulgar deprecating verbal attacks. You have always seemed to have no memory.
Don't come around with some moronic psycho-babble, you know nothing about.
Keep trying your diversion Joel, sorry though (3) of us have our feet planted right on Anne's ass.
You were just a snack during intermission.

Bye Bye sissyboy.

Anne, shut your pie hole and suck it up, ya baby. No, Anne, I said I would kick your ass.... :roflmao:
Oh, hear we go. Danny said he was going to kick my ass. OH boo hoo, I'm so scared I peed my pants. Would Anne, Joel and BP like some depends for your protection. Right now I am kicking your ass, how does it feel.
I just love how you folks make such a big deal out of what I say. That is why I say it. Because I love to see you folks cry.
Oh Danny is threatening me, Danny is sexually assaulting me, Danny is doing this, Suck-It is doing that, Tim is doing this, Whooter is doing that and bla bla bla.........
Guys step off you freaking pansies. Go cry to the authorities or other wise suck it up. You get what ya get because you give what ya give.

Quote from: "Anne Bonney"

Quote from: "DannyB II"
, I'll kick Annes ass as sure as I will kick your ass.

Well, aren't you the big man.

Like I said....g'head and just keep proving what everyone's been saying here about you. This isn't the first time you've threatened me or other women here. Do ya feel like a big boy now?

Absolutely, have no problem beating your ass like the skank you are. Actually I rather enjoy it. Thanks. I hope every swinging dick and vagina on this site reads everything I wrote twice before they go to bed. I hope I prove to everybody here and a far that I will not stand for the likes of you. I truly believe you make fornits a little less credible by being here, you phony.
Anne, please you should know by know I don't care what anybody thinks about what I say to you. I have lost all respect for you.
You prey on people and I don't like it. As long as I can, I will be right on your ass with my size 11 foot.

Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010

Quote from: "DannyB II"

Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "Whooter"

It seems you are the one that feels threatened.

Gee...I wonder why?

Quote from: "DannyB II"
Well then keep drumming because your solo. Joel your not even with someone and neither is your brother. DUh.....I have been with two women in my life, one passed on and I am currently with the second. She has posted here and has had some serious comments for Anne and Felice. I/we have absolutely no respect for them then again I have showed no mercy on Ursus, Che, DJ, Paul (lill johnny) and yourself dickwad I don't give a flying fuck what you think of me,. I'll kick Annes ass as sure as I will kick your ass. Don't like it, take your balls and go home.
Don't like what I have to say about Anne, go back and read and you will see who started the vulgar deprecating verbal attacks. You have always seemed to have no memory.
Don't come around with some moronic psycho-babble, you know nothing about.
Keep trying your diversion Joel, sorry though (3) of us have our feet planted right on Anne's ass.
You were just a snack during intermission.

Bye Bye sissyboy.

Anne, shut your pie hole and suck it up, ya baby. No, Anne, I said I would kick your ass.... :roflmao:
Oh, hear we go. Danny said he was going to kick my ass. OH boo hoo, I'm so scared I peed my pants. Would Anne, Joel and BP like some depends for your protection. Right now I am kicking your ass, how does it feel.
I just love how you folks make such a big deal out of what I say. That is why I say it. Because I love to see you folks cry.
Oh Danny is threatening me, Danny is sexually assaulting me, Danny is doing this, Suck-It is doing that, Tim is doing this, Whooter is doing that and bla bla bla.........
Guys step off you freaking pansies. Go cry to the authorities or other wise suck it up. You get what ya get because you give what ya give.

Ladies and gentlemen let me expose this as being one of Who's alter egos.. as Who is the only one who ever called me BP... :seg:

Sorry Botched, but sadly DB is an actual functioning person. Though an argument can be made for him functioning on the level of an amoeba, but none the less, he's actually is who he says he is.

Quote from: "Anne Bonney"

Quote from: "DannyB II"
, I'll kick Annes ass as sure as I will kick your ass.

Is this part of your New Warrior Training?

:rofl:

Ya know there is actually a warrior training program for both men and women, I would love to see your girly ass out there but I doubt it. Your the kind of person who picks the fight, talks shit until she gets her butt kicked, then runs crying to the authorities.
Anne, you started it, when you fight, people fight to win. You know this, you love to call people names. That is threatening someone, especially when you question there manhood, like several of you women like to do. Then when retaliated on, you start crying. Stop fighting people if you can't take it.

Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010

Quote from: "Joel"

Quote from: "DannyB II"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "DannyB II"
, I'll kick Annes ass as sure as I will kick your ass.

Well, aren't you the big man.

Like I said....g'head and just keep proving what everyone's been saying here about you. This isn't the first time you've threatened me or other women here. Do ya feel like a big boy now?

Absolutely, have no problem beating your ass like the skank you are. Actually I rather enjoy it. Thanks. I hope every swinging dick and vagina on this site reads everything I wrote twice before they go to bed. I hope I prove to everybody here and a far that I will not stand for the likes of you. I truly believe you make fornits a little less credible by being here, you phony.

Anne, please you should know by know I don't care what anybody thinks about what I say to you. I have lost all respect for you.
You prey on people and I don't like it. As long as I can, I will be right on your ass with my size 11 foot.

Recording

Thanks Joel, now record this. I also said I was kicking your sweet ass, honey boy. Are you still in Rhode Island, sweet cheeks. Because if you are, in Providence there is a place called, "federal hill" meet me up there. Bring your depends.

Quote from: "Joel"

Quote from: "DannyB II"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "DannyB II"
, I'll kick Annes ass as sure as I will kick your ass.

Is this part of your New Warrior Training?

:rofl:

Ya know there is actually a warrior training program for both men and women, I would love to see your girly ass out there but I doubt it. Your the kind of person who picks the fight, talks shit until she gets her butt kicked, then runs crying to the authorities.
Anne, you started it, when you fight, people fight to win. You know this, you love to call people names. That is threatening someone, especially when you question there manhood, like several of you women like to do. Then when retaliated on, you start crying. Stop fighting people if you can't take it.

http://www.newbeginningsnh.org/html/signs.html (http://www.newbeginningsnh.org/html/signs.html)

Abusive Personality Signs

Signs to Look for in an Abusive Personality, from the Project for Victims of Family Violence, Inc., Fayetteville, Az

I make all my women wear "depends". Yessiree, them X-large type.

Quote from: "DannyB II"

I make all my women wear "depends". Yessiree, them X-large type.

Dude... You are a sick man... Chubby chaser who like his women with a bladder control problem !!!! ::OMG::

Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010

Quote from: Joel

I found another interesting article about bullying :D

http://ezinearticles.com/?Bullying---Tw ... id=2659108 (http://ezinearticles.com/?Bullying---Twenty-Basic-Traits-of-the-Subtle-and-Not-So-Subtle-Serial-Forms-of-It&id=2659108)

Thanks, sweet cheeks.

Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010

Quote

"Joel" wrote:
Me thinks "sweet cheeks" was your childhood pet name? I can speculate who gave it to you but they would roll over .

Awe, that is so cute sweet cheeks, thank You. Not everyone can have your "pet name" Joel.

Quote from: "DannyB II"

Absolutely, have no problem beating your ass like the skank you are. Actually I rather enjoy it. Thanks. I hope every swinging dick and vagina on this site reads everything I wrote twice before they go to bed.

::) ::) ::)

Quote

Anne . . . You prey on people and I don't like it. As long as I can, I will be right on your ass with my size 11 foot.

Classic pot calling the kettle black,,, maybe you'd like to bend over for me, Dannyboi?

Quote from: "Queen Bitch"

Quote from: "DannyB II"
Absolutely, have no problem beating your ass like the skank you are. Actually I rather enjoy it. Thanks. I hope every swinging dick and vagina on this site reads everything I wrote twice before they go to bed.
::) ::) ::)

Quote
Anne . . . You prey on people and I don't like it. As long as I can, I will be right on your ass with my size 11 foot.
Classic pot calling the kettle black,,, maybe you'd like to bend over for me, Dannyboi?

No I stopped doing that 30 years ago, remember.

This is just DannyBoi trying to feel like a big man. He must have been picked on in high school and couldn't get a date, so he's an angry little man now and it makes him feel better to threaten women.

So, Whooter.....what do you think of DannyBoi's threats to me and others?

Quote from: "Anne Bonney"

So, Whooter.....what do you think of DannyBoi's threats to me and others?

I didnt see any threats, I have been looking at DJ's and my trolling posts in the old TheWho thread. So I havent kept up much here the last day.

...

Quote from: "Whooter"

Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
So, Whooter.....what do you think of DannyBoi's threats to me and others?

I didnt see any threats

:roflmao:

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

You are so full of shit.

.

Getting back to the story at hand...

-------------- • -------------- • --------------

CBSnews.com — CRIMESIDER
October 15, 2009 6:30 AM

Desperate 911 Call: First Glimpse Into Angel Valley Sweat Lodge Deaths (http://http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-5384310-504083.html?tag=contentMain%3bcontentBody)
Posted by Edecio Martinez

FLAGSTAFF, Ariz. (CBS/AP) A newly released 911 call is now offering a first glimpse into what really happened inside an Arizona sweat lodge, leaving two people dead and more hospitalized.

KPHO: 911 Calls From Sweat Lodge Incident (http://http://www.kpho.com/download/2009/1009/21255851.mp3) (Mp3)

"Two people aren't breathing," the caller said while panting. "Two have no pulse."

Those two people were 38-year-old Kirby Brown of Westtown, N.Y., and James Shore, 40, of Milwaukee. They died shortly after emergency workers removed them from the sweat lodge on Oct. 8.

Brown and Shore and more than 50 others had come to Angel Valley Resort in Sedona, Ariz., to listen to the teachings of spiritual and financial guru James Arthur Ray.

Participants had fasted for 36 hours as part of a personal and spiritual quest in the wilderness before entering a 415-square-foot makeshift structure of wood and fabric that was filled with fire-heated stones.

It's not clear what type of financial wizardry Ray was offering inside the super-heated tent. Perhaps he was explaining how it's possible to get scores of people to pay up to $10,000 for a two-day retreat in the desert.

At those rates, the deadly retreat earned around half-a-million in revenue. It's not clear if Ray returned the funds to the victims' survivors. Neither his company nor his press agency returned phone messages from Crimesider.

On the day in question, between 55 and 65 participants had eaten a breakfast buffet after a 36-hour fast, and entered the tent around 3 p.m.

Two hours later a 911 call was made which said two people had no pulse and weren't breathing.

"They're both unconscious, no pulse, they're not breathing," said the 911 caller. "There's a lot of people here."

Police said participants were highly encouraged, but not forced, to remain inside the crudely built sweat lodge for the entire two-hour ceremony.

Fire department reports released Tuesday show the incident wasn't the first involving a sweat lodge ceremony at the resort.

Verde Valley Fire Chief Jerry Doerksen said his department responded to a 911 call in October 2005 about a person who was unconscious after being in a sweat lodge.

Angel Valley resort owner Amayra Hamilton confirmed that Ray was leading the ceremony during the 2005 event.

Autopsies on Brown and Shore were conducted, but the results are being withheld pending additional tests. Carbon monoxide poisoning was ruled out as a cause of the deaths and illnesses.

Meanwhile, the Yavapai County Sheriff's Office continued to investigate last week's ceremony to determine if criminal negligence played a role in the deaths or illnesses. No charges have been filed.

Copyright ©2010 CBS Interactive Inc.

Interesting Comment (http://http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-5384310-504083.html?tag=contentMain%3bcontentBody) left for the above article, "Desperate 911 Call: First Glimpse Into Angel Valley Sweat Lodge Deaths (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=28923&p=377990#p377975)" (by Edecio Martinez; Oct. 15, 2009; CBS Crimesider):

by JosiahTapper · October 18, 2009 2:39 PM EDT

Im appauled at how the Media idiots depict James Ray and their refrences to him and what he charges for thte retreats. WHO CARES WHAT IT COSTS, "A MAN IS WORTH HIS WAGE" AND THE SAME THING GOES FOR THE NATURAL CURES FOR CANCER...EITHER U PAY MONEY NOW FOR A HEALTHY LIFE, OR YOU PAY MONEY LATER TO BE SICK....IF HE CHARGES A MILLION DOLLARS, SO WHAT?!?!?....

Copyright ©2010 CBS Interactive Inc.

Emphasis as per the original:

-------------- • -------------- • --------------

Examiner.com
Breaking news: Transcript of private call between James Ray and sweat lodge victims (http://http://www.examiner.com/x-11245-Philadelphia-Speculative-Fiction-Examiner~y2009m10d15-Breaking-news-transcript-of-private-call-between-James-Ray-and-sweat-lodge-victims)
October 15th, 2009 2:32 am ET · Cassandra Yorgey

Mind control is a subject commonly found in works of speculative fiction, but rarely in reality. Self-help guru James Arthur Ray (http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Arthur_Ray) is the latest to use mind-control, called coercive persuasion among psychologists, in the sweat lodge tragedy that occurred last week. James Ray is currently under investigation for two deaths and 19 additional hospitalizations (http://http://www.examiner.com/a-2261207~2_dead_after_hours_in_Ariz__sweat_lodge_identified.html) that occurred at his Spiritual Warrior Retreat last week in Sedona, AZ during the sweat lodge portion.

Last night James Ray made his first public statement regarding the tragedy and today he had a conference call that was only for the victims of his latest retreat-gone-wrong. Why does James Ray want to have private communication with his victims? What is he hiding (http://http://www.examiner.com/x-11245-Philadelphia-Speculative-Fiction-Examiner~y2009m10d16-Breaking-news-Inside-accounts-of-James-Ray-sweat-lodge-tragedy-and-retreat)? It would appear that he is psychologically tampering with witnesses as well as continuing to hit them up for money, trying to enroll them into more of his programs, and giving them bad advice. What proof do I have of this? Today I received a transcript of this call from a victim that wishes to remain anonymous. I have great respect and sympathy for all the victims, their families, and what they are going through in this trying time, so I will not post the transcript in its entirety. I want to protect the victims that are not yet ready to speak out but I will gladly post everything James Ray and his staff said though, because it is inexcusable and he must be brought to accountability.

The call started with Greg (a staff member) (http://http://www.examiner.com/x-11245-Philadelphia-Speculative-Fiction-Examiner~y2009m12d10-Breaking-news-James-Ray-employee-Greg-Hartle-has-his-own-death-tweets) explaining the purpose of the call was to bring closure to the retreat and to give James Ray a chance to interact with everyone. Next, Greg introduced Katie Carlson as an international follower of James Ray and strongly urged everyone to seek guidance about this tragedy with her, even though she is not certified as a counselor. I'd like to repeat that because of the crazy factor – he urged people to consult someone who is in no way certified in the fields of therapy. Why would he refer trauma victims to a non-professional to cope with this tragedy? Because James Ray and his staff kept stressing the importance of turning to others in the James Ray community for support, or as James Ray kept referring to his followers "Harmonic minded individuals". This is a huge warning sign of cult activities – turning to unqualified people for help only because they are members. Cults focus their members inwards in an attempt to cut off outside influences.

"Harmonic minded individuals" is bad enough but another phrase James Ray and staff kept using was "those who have fallen ill" apparently he is choosing to portray this as some sort of disease or sickness, as opposed to the reality - they are suffering from overexposure to dangerous levels of heat that is a direct consequence of James Ray's actions in the sweat lodge. Even more astounding is how many victims were agreeing with James Ray, even though they themselves are still recovering from injuries he imposed upon them. This raises serious questions about the levels of indoctrination James Ray has achieved among his followers – they are willing to support him even after he almost killed them. Some even espoused the near death experience as transformative and praised James Ray for it, even while they discussed the physical problems they are still struggling to overcome. I have heard similar sentiments from other people who suffered from the effects of coercive persuasion – cult members, abused teenagers from wilderness therapy programs, etc.

The words of the staff are bad enough, but barely scratch the surface of what James Ray himself stated. He starts by saying "I really wanted to be with you all on the final night and my thoughts were consisistenly with everyone who was having challenges." Of course, he neglects to mention why he wasn't there with everyone, because he was not in police custody – he was on his way out of the state. Doesn't seem like he really wanted to be there then, huh?

He goes on to say "I just kept thinking 'I have to take care of my people'." How he could even utter those words after his gross failure to take care of them during the retreat when they needed it is beyond me. James Ray insists to the callers that "this is something I have never been confronted with before" and George and Amayra Hamilton, the owners of Angel Valley Retreat (where the sweat lodge was held), have repeatedly backed him in news reports. However, "not been confronted" is not the same as "never happened before" and the fire department released information that something exactly like this has happened before. In 2005 a call was placed to 911 because of another sweat lodge being run by James Ray at the same Angel Valley Retreat center. Furthermore, the police are investigating James Ray's retreats at multiple other locations.

Another catch-phrase James Ray and staff kept using is "remember your teachings" and "remind you of what you know" which he used a lot while saying "just be good to yourself. This is the most important time, its always important, to practice what you know, eat right… You gotta eat and you gotta eat healthy. You gotta get your workouts in, speaking from experience, sometimes you don't feel like it but you gotta get rest and eat right." That's strange advice coming from James Ray, the very same person who deprived them of food, water, and sleep for 36+ hours right before shutting them in the sweat lodge.

James continued, "As restless as your mind might be, take 15 to 20 minutes to slow down and remember who you are. Next it's important to surround yourself with healthy harmonic minded individuals who support you and love you. Hopefully you've connected with support, and if you haven't please, please do because this community is coming together like never before and there is lots of support around the world. I'm sending [unclear] to all those who took ill and also those that transitioned and left this physical life, you can only give what you have and you can't give what you're not. Again lets all remind each other of what we know." The first part sounds like followers struggle with their sense of self unless they are around other followers, the last part of the quote doesn't even make sense, and he wraps up with more repetition.

"I have an incredible support group in my life and it's been invaluable. I know Greg and Megan left me a voicemail last Friday and I saved it and listen to it several times a day. It's important to do these things. That's why we have Katie, she has experience and knows how to do these things." Katie is present on the call and agrees that these things are important. I guess it's nice that James Ray listens to his friends' messages on repeat, but I am not sure that would qualify as important in the grieving process. It is also unclear as to what Katie has contributed to the exchange, other than agreement, which means very little as she is not a qualified therapist. Nor is James Ray, while we're discussing it.

"Now is the time to rise above the mood and use what you know. It's OK to grieve. I feel grief, but in the midst of that you have to do the things that will keep you healthy and that are best for every one of our family members who are still ill or deceased." Again, James Ray is heavy on the repetition. "Use what you know" is such a dangerous catchphrase because the very act of making it a catchphrase encourages people to replace actual thinking with oft spouted empty words. Notice also how he calls the victims "family members". Most of these people only met last week, hardly long enough to form bonds of friendship, let alone familial ties. I would think it would be healthier for the victims to turn to their actual families and loved ones, but like Katie and James Ray, I am not qualified to give counseling. It would be best to ask a licensed therapist about such things.

"We all know the power of prayer, studies prove it. [Let's have a] moment of silence for those who have taken ill and for those in recovery and for those that are family members of those who transitioned. A moment of silence to do what we will to send our brightest intentions and love to all those involved including ourselves. Envision all of us in a circle if you will. Let's take a deep breath in. Breathe in. And out. You know what to do. Be the light in the darkness for ourselves and each other for all involved. Envision ourselves standing together in a circle, as we have so many times before, and as we stay in that circle we can press *6 to mute out our line if we're being noisy."

Everyone beeps their line while they follow his command.

"Take a breath in. Out. Remembering who we are and what we know. Remembering that we are here in this special time in world history to make a major positive difference in a world that needs it so much. Knowing that we can and that we are. Next breath in. And out. Loving ourselves and allowing ourselves to experience whatever we experience and loving ourselves because the only way to go beyond it is to [unclear]. We [unclear] energy in this circle, breath in and out. Remembering all that we've learned and experienced and knowing the laws of the universe that every [unclear] chaos comes order that never existed before the chaos, moving elegantly through chaos to facilitate the order. Knowing a higher power than what we know conciously is guiding and directing us. No matter what we feel in the moment we are guided and protected always. Imagine ourselves standing in a pyramid of light and on the next breath take all intentionality and experience into the heart and crown chakra. Through the heart of each of us here now, into the crown, out through the heart, connecting all of us here and now. Breathe in and out. Irrelevant who is here, the unconscious mind knows and the universe knows. Now that we are connected I [unclear] to heartfelt energy [unclear] infinite [unclear] to still hospitalized. To their highest good and rapid healing at whatever level that may be. Breathe in and out through heart and all those who may still be hospitalized breathing in an out. Send out to all those how have taken ill for their rapid healing and breakthrough for new level - breathe in and out through the heart. We just feel the energy going out. Individuals who transitioned out of this physical life feel love and support of God and energy to assist them in this time of grief and challenge. Breathe in and out through the hearts of families, bathing them and supporting them in this moment. Final breath back to ourselves. Support each other, re-bond this community. In and out to the hearts of each other. Vibrating and pulsating through our bodies in this moment and we step forward acting upon this moment and the laws of the universe. So be it and it is."

"Let me say one more thing before I turn it over to Barb. Barb, *6 again to share. I did an event in L.A last night, last thing I wanted to do, would rather stay home and meditate and heal but it was the right thing to do. It was a commitment and same with San Diego tonight. Many are discussing [attending] summit, and the bottom line is i made a commitment and people are flying in. There has never been a more important time to stay dialed in to thoughts of hope, thoughts of possibility and to be reminded of the things all the greatest teachers [have taught]. I know most of you are going. It will help you to be there. It will feed your soul. What we're doing is necessary so I'm gonna be there and give it my best. Barb, will you now tell us a little about what you experienced during the closing ceremony?"

This, I think, is the worst part of the entire conference call. Barb is one of James Ray's staff members and she goes on to talk "of the two that had passed and they left their bodies during the ceremony and had so much fun they chose not to come back and that was their choice that they made." This is going to be really hard for James Ray and his people to explain when the autopsy results are released, because people do not cook themselves to death. They just don't. Barb implying they do is asserting James Ray's innocence and falsely supporting that the survivors are alive because they chose to live. In actuality, James Ray had to be interrupted and the participants were physically removed from the sweat lodge because they were not capable of transporting themselves.

The rest of Barb's words were less offensive, but still rather odd. "There were a number of us that were still there Friday afternoon. We had all been sharing and working through the processes and Angel Valley and [unclear] and Friday evening one of them did [unclear] with cleansing for various sights they had been on and a session with everyone still on site. I gotta say they opened up their hearts and [unclear] he opened up, got into her mode and I believe she was channeling some of the spirits from Angel Valley and she opened it up for questions that anyone wanted to ask, but I don't remember them all."

"This is bringing attention to how sweat lodges should be used. The next morning the police had cleared the site and then Angel Valley could take the shelter down and burn it."

"We were in the dining hall the next day and got a circle together and did prayer pouches to put on fire to honor the process the participants went through on their vision quest. We had tobacco, material, and strings that varied people had and Angel Valley gave cornmeal and we sat in a circle and talked about who and what we wanted to do with all the pouches. We made a pouch for those who passed, James Ray, James Ray International, the hospitalized, all the participants, and last is all encompassing for everyone on the globe being affected by this. Saturday in circle we held hands, took hot breath, and sand for each pouch took intentions and [unclear] that pouch for intentions and prayers for that particular person represented. Instead of leaving in the string we tied it in a circle to represent togetherness. After that we went to the sweat lodge area and everything had been taken off except the wooden structure. We gathered around and all the participants of the dream team who were left stood in the north, at that point some Angel Valley people spoke and opened up to anyone who [wanted to speak]. People really spoke about embracing the dark and the light."

"Some spoke of being next to those who were dead or sick, others of the teaching the rest of the week and [how] it was exactly what they needed to [unclear] higher evolution. Some spoke of the use of sweat lodges in the future. Everyone was quiet for a bit. Everyone spoke of embracing the light if anyone had anger or frustration [unclear] that they really need to not hold that within ourselves. I can't remember if anyone spoke but I think if [unclear] it was expressed in themselves and not spoken words."

Barb spoke of dismantling the sweat lodge. "The tradtional way is to cut or untie the strings that held the wood together. It took a while to take it down but we [unclear]. Ffter we had that kind of filled we took the grandfathers and put them in the shape of a heart around the pit. Participants [unclear] on the ground and that was tied through the circle of pouches we created that morning that [unclear] held up and put both pouches on [unclear] and that represented our intentions for [unclear] and the other string of pouches from [unclear] represented all of the participants that didn't make it to the fire [unclear]."

"And then matches were passed around for everyone and we all struck a match and helped to light the fire and watched the fire and said what was in their hearts."

James Ray ended Barb's story. "Hopefully all of you appreciate hearing that as well as I did reading it and hearing it again. Greg you were gonna say something?"

Greg chimes in. "Thank you very much Barb, that helps a lot. I did want to acknowledge Katie, she is available and [unclear] contact us to be in contact with Katie, everything you have she can help with. At this point Katie, is there anything you want to add or say?"

Katie, the not qualified to be counseling anyone on grieving follower of James Ray, says "For the most part it is OK to feel what you're feeling and don't do it alone. You guys really know how to journal, get those feeling out of you. Make sure you connect with anyone, especially Harmonic like-minded individuals. There's a ton of people out there for you."

"Thank you Katie"

"My pleasure."

Greg continues, "I would like to open up to anyone, I know there's a lot of you, I want to be sure that out of respect we stick with our own feelings and how we can best support each other."

This is when the survivors begin to share and I cannot in good conscience repeat their private feelings. I will say that many had difficulty recalling the experience clearly and many thanked the others for pulling them to safety while they were incapacitated.

James Ray wraps up the call with "I love you guys with all my heart. I've thought about each and every one of you. The families. Nonstop. I would have loved to have been with you that night. Please, please let me remind you since [retracted] said she was late, as a reminder, take care of yourself. Now more than ever stay plugged in. As hard as it was for me I told Megan and Greg it was every bit as healing to go speak to those people last night as it was for them. Stay plugged in, eat exercise, talk to Kaite and stay connected with this community. I give you 110% of what I have. Thank you so much for who you are and what you are doing for each other and the world. Highest prayers for the families and those taken ill and a speedy recovery. Love you lots."

Read part two: Inside accounts of James Ray sweat lodge tragedy and retreat (http://http://www.examiner.com/x-11245-Philadelphia-Speculative-Fiction-Examiner~y2009m10d16-Breaking-news-Inside-accounts-of-James-Ray-sweat-lodge-tragedy-and-retreat)

Read an interview: Brett Merle, former wilderness program owner speaks out about NLP and proper safety measures for programs such as James Ray's

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In case the FTC is wondering (http://http://www.examiner.com/x-11245-Philadelphia-Speculative-Fiction-Examiner~y2009m10d5-Federal-Trade-Commission-attacks-bloggers--fines-up-to-11K), I do not endorse James Ray and he has never compensated me in any way.[/list]

Copyright © 2009 Clarity Digital Group LLC d/b/a Examiner.com.

Comments (http://http://www.examiner.com/speculative-fiction-in-philadelphia/breaking-news-transcript-of-private-call-between-james-ray-and-sweat-lodge-victims) on the above piece, "Breaking news: Transcript of private call between James Ray and sweat lodge victims (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=28923&p=378533#p378350)" (by Cassandra Yorgey; October 15th, 2009; Examiner.com), #s 1-25:

by seminar junkie · 11 months ago

If you want a life-altering experience, I'd recommend you attend seminars and read books by self-help experts like Tony Robbins and James Arthur Ray.by Kyle · 11 months ago

If you knew James Arthur Ray and what he stands for, you would never say these hurtful things about him and classify him in the dangerous 'cult-like' figure. The man has dedicated his life to helping people learn about themselves because it is never taught to us in the fraudulent education system we all should be ashamed of. Again, media jumping to conclusions without all the facts. Typical, disgraceful journalism.by Chris · 11 months ago

I am not a "follower" of James Ray, but I have read his works and have attended one of his seminars. He offers what I consider to be good personal development advice in many areas. He can also get very esoteric when it comes to spiritual teachings, therefore I prefer to stick to more mainstream people like Tony Robbins. I do not understand why James Ray left the scene of this incident, however I think your "cult" portrayal of him and his followers is going way too far. You need to look at his entire body of work.by Gina · 11 months ago

I thank you for sharing this. I gave been in sweats run by real native Americans (becuz. Am native American). It is blatantly obvious to me that this lodge was poorly run. He pretty much ripped those people off. And to send people off on a visionquest?!!! He had a great lack of knowledge about what he was doing.by FT · 11 months ago

by Anonymous · 11 months ago

If James Ray had been so dedicated in his life with his teachings he wouldn't have been charging for it. It shouldve come from the pure joy of getting the word out there. But no. James got greedy and it became all about the money. Charging $9000 to show your dedication is not a worthy cause to say the least. James' gross neglegance with his power of influence and his desire to play God with other peoples lives is a severly distorted attempt at imperical rule, and again all because of the wealth. Not harmonic wealth but monetary wealth to sustain his very empire. The journalIsm here was spot on and I am sad to see that if so many of you were true believers you'd be a little more open minded to all sides of the story being told so that the truth may reveal itself! James has become lost among the souls of the world that bind themselves to monetary glory. He needs to held accountable for playing God with someone elses life.by t.golden · 11 months ago

good job getting hold of this transcript so that people can hear what is really going on rather than hearsay.i think its eye opening. i do wish you had included what the participants were saying as well and Ray's response to them, as i think thats an important part of the story, even though you could have changed their names.by John Curtis · 11 months ago

by Cassandra Yorgey · 11 months ago

Hi everyone, thanks for commenting. Even the one who called me 'disgraceful'. No, really. I think it is deeply awesome that we have a two sided discussion going on here. I strive for open communication and multi-sided conversations. Please feel free to keep talking about this here, I offer you all my comment space, to anyone who wants to discuss this openly. I do ask that we all treat each other with respect though. For those of you concerned I am not giving James Ray a fair shot, well, I can't wait for you to see the exclusive interview that I have going up next. I was familiar with James Ray's work before this retreat, and I cannot deny there is some value to parts of his work. If James Ray is uncomfortable with my pegging him as a cult leader, well, then he should stop ordering people to cook themselves alive, because then I will stop referring to him as a cult. I, however, will continue to look to Albus Dumbledore for my moral guidance.by Rachel · 11 months ago

by Eoghan · 11 months ago

by karen in baltimore · 11 months ago

Thanks for this information. Having grown up in a cultish religious family, I have learned to be Independent and cautious of all emotionally charged persuasion. I have attended retreats and gatherings and have enjoyed learning, but when my gut says 'something is wrong with that person', I back away. At times, I am the only one doing so as others 'praise' this so called dynamic spiritual person. Cons are good actors. They can charm so well we don't even know it is happening. I watched a whole church follow someone who was evil and ended up in jail. But oh my could he move with "the Holy Spirit". The Truth will become known. I'm glad this is being investigated. It needs to be. Let's pray for the wounded and the families of the deceased. Let's pray for that land upon which this tragedy occurred. Let's pray for ourselves, that we each learn what we need to from this. Namaste.by Asandra Lamb · 11 months ago

by Annie · 11 months ago

Very interesting article. I am personally stunned at James Ray's behavior. Two people DIED and 1 is still in a coma while many others likely suffered permanent organ damage. In the wake of this, the person responsible (yes, responsible) leaves the state and continues his business as usual! He has the audacity to say he is being tested! HE is being tested? (1) This isn't about HIM and (2) do you imagine that perhaps this is more about the people who died and the unbelievable suffering their families are going thru than about a self-righteous, greedy snake oil salesman? When are people going to realize that everything we need is within ourselves and we do not need to be relinquishing our personal power to idiots like this.by anon · 11 months ago

Kyle, it's my impression that people who truly "dedicate [their lives] to helping people" don't charge an arm and a leg for it. The people I know who dedicate their lives to others do so by giving of themselves, not taking from those who need help.[/list]
by David · 11 months ago

There are several things I find disturbing regarding this article. I'll limit it to a few. 1. Money has become such a hot topic due to the prices that are charged for an event such as this. I find it disturbing that we as a people feel it completely acceptable to pay a baseball player millions per year or football player the same and find that he is doing cock fighting or dog fighting or charged with assault or whatever. He finally gets out of jail or whatever the police charged him with and we can't wait so that he can get back out there and play again... Yet, when it comes to a person who has provided these OLD teachings in a new way so 21st century people can acclimate it we believe it is appalling that he actually have a nice lifestyle because of it. I personally don't enjoy being broke and find it difficult to listen to the teachings of someone who is. If you want to know how to make money don't ask a beggar. This world requires money. It's what we do with it that counts.by David · 11 months ago

I have determined that my posts are not being submitted and therefore realize that if you contradict the article too much it doesn't get posted. We will see if this one gets posted. If so, I'll submit my post again.by Realist · 11 months ago

I appreciate everything in your post, even though it may be brutal for followers of James Ray to swallow. I have been part of this movement and have attended Ray's events, as well as those of others. Unfortunately, it is painfully clear that the quiet, meditative time Ray has taken has been in part spent carefully crafting a legal defense. From what I have observed of him and attentively listened to him say, this is a man who leaves nothing to chance, but rather molds and shapes every iota of his life. He asks no questions for which he does not know the answer. Every phrase he utters, every word, is intended for a specific purpose. I know this is incredibly difficult for people who believe in James Ray to accept. The reason he left the scene and could not take the human and most natural step of being with those in his care who were in trouble was because he wanted to protect himself -- which he did brilliantly. This is unbelievably sad. But true.by SHFraud · 11 months ago

This is truly sickening. The man has no shame and it's obvious from some of the responses here and the responses of followers that these people are very deeply sucked in and really need to wake up. And Oprah also needs to wake up, develop some critical thinking skills and be more careful of who she promotes. I really hope that he is tried, convicted, and locked up for good so he cannot hurt anyone else. That would be justice although for every James Ray that gets removed from society (if we're lucky), there are plenty of others ready and willing to take his face, along with plenty of people who never learned to think critically and are easy marks. How very sad.by Former Employee · 11 months ago

As a former employee of James Ray, I can assure you that the man is a fraud. The "team" holds conference calls like these regularly to keep people who have attended events "plugged in". If he is the "teacher" that some think he is, why was he selling future events this week including next year's Spiritual Warrior event? The unmitigated arrogance is appalling and I think the man is guilty of criminal negligence.by David · 11 months ago

Weird browser issue apparently as my post is back. My apologies. 2. I have been to several JR events and find his information invaluable. However, unlike a sheep I also listen to several other teachers including Dr. Wayne Dyer, Deepak Chopra, Louise Hay, etc. They all have their own style of presenting what is pretty much the same material. Hearing it different ways allows a better integration but I would hardly call it brainwashing or mind control. The Sedona incident is truly a tragedy but we need to consider that accidents do happen. Kids have died on the football field due to heat exhaustion yet the coach didn't get charged with murder due to highly encouraging the child to stay on the field. I think to state that those at JR events are mind warped into doing things out of their control is ludicrous. I would say sitting in front of the TV drooling at an oreo then finding yourself eating one is far more mind-controlling and it happens daily.by David · 11 months ago

1. Harmonic minded.. If I were to talk to you about how to fly an ILS Approach into a specific airport and discuss the procedures that you would need to consider in order to make a successful landing would you have any idea what I was talking about? Not unless you were a pilot. So why would I go to a counselor who will not understand anything about native traditions, spiritual prayer ceremonies, toxin cleansing, etc. True, it is not necessary to talk to someone within the JRI community but talking with someone who can at least talk the language I think would be necessary. I say all of this and do not intend to mean that there is not responsibility on the event holder for something that affected this many people. However, we do need to back up a little bit and realize that most of the people writing these articles have little understanding of the topics that were covered in that call. Yes, it sounds odd or strange but so does another language if you don't speak it.by Realist · 11 months ago

by Cassandra Yorgey · 11 months ago

There are a lot of good points going on in these comments, thanks everyone! I want to let you know, I don't like to moderate comments and generally won't do so unless its pointlessly rude. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I prefer to convince people with facts, evidence, and critical thinking rather than ommission.by Realist · 11 months ago

I appreciate everything in your post, even though it may be brutal for followers of James Ray to swallow. I have been part of this movement and have attended Ray's events, as well as those of others. Unfortunately, it is painfully clear that the quiet, meditative time Ray has taken has been in part spent carefully crafting a legal defense. From what I have observed of him and attentively listened to him say, this is a man who leaves nothing to chance, but rather molds and shapes every iota of his life. He asks no questions for which he does not know the answer. Every phrase he utters, every word, is intended for a specific purpose. I know this is incredibly difficult for people who believe in James Ray to accept. The reason he left the scene and could not take the human and most natural step of being with those in his care who were in trouble was because he wanted to protect himself -- which he did brilliantly. This is unbelievably sad. But true.

Copyright © Clarity Digital Group LLC d/b/a Examiner.com.

Comments (http://http://www.examiner.com/speculative-fiction-in-philadelphia/breaking-news-transcript-of-private-call-between-james-ray-and-sweat-lodge-victims) on the above piece, "Breaking news: Transcript of private call between James Ray and sweat lodge victims (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=28923&p=378533#p378350)" (by Cassandra Yorgey; October 15th, 2009; Examiner.com), #s 26-50:

by JamesPossible · 11 months ago

by JamesPossible · 11 months ago

by Let's Be Honest Here · 11 months ago

by anon · 11 months ago

by Holly · 11 months ago

For those hounding JR for going forward with his commitment to hold the events you'd probably be the same people calling him a coward if he canceled them. Many of you think he was a coward and "left the scene." Consider that it was a police investigation at that time and he was most likely asked to leave so the participants could be interviewed outside of his presence. But, it's a much better story to speculate that he was trying to run and hide. Had he stayed you would be saying he was there to use his ?mind control? over the witnesses. You put a spin on the limited facts to make it read the way you want to read it. There is no denying that what happened is a tragedy, but all the added opinion, speculation & reports taken out of context only creates the rumors that take on a life of their own and serve no purpose but to ?brainwash? in another form. People love a good witch hunt. Any words added as speculation, opinion or hearsay are not facts and only enflame an a tragic situationby Just a thought · 11 months ago

by just a thought · 11 months ago

by Not Surprised · 11 months ago

I do not believe that James Ray set out to intentionally hurt anyone. However I am appalled at the greed that was exhibited in this matter. If he charged over 60 people 9,600.00 each he very easily could have hired professional Native Americans to not only build a quality lodge but also to oversee and/ or conduct the activities. He could have had oxygen, difibrilators and medical staff on hand in case of emergencies.He clearly did not want to spend any extra money on things he did not deem necessary. Its all so very sad, but it seems in this case the almighty dollar is what the focus was.by StpMmJY · 11 months ago

Call JY ASAP - a major news agency needs to talk with you, Cassandra. . .by cory many fingers · 11 months ago

by Saturn · 11 months ago

by Not Surprised · 11 months ago

I do not believe that James Ray set out to intentionally hurt anyone. However I am appalled at the greed that was exhibited in this matter. If he charged over 60 people 9,600.00 each he very easily could have hired professional Native Americans to not only build a quality lodge but also to oversee and/ or conduct the activities. He could have had oxygen, difibrilators and medical staff on hand in case of emergencies.He clearly did not want to spend any extra money on things he did not deem necessary. Its all so very sad, but it seems in this case the almighty dollar is what the focus was.by S.T. · 11 months ago

You and James are cut from the same cloth. Both of you impose your interpretations of reality and offer them as the Gospel truth. Please knock it off.by Mind Games · 11 months ago

James claims to have studied in three mystery schools. If that's the case, then he probably understands that by leading these victims in such a long, love+light meditation the other day, he was actually leading them through a kind of hypnosis. Being hypnotized by him, those people are much more likely to follow his orders and not question him. It is TOTALLY inappropriate for a criminal to be hypnotizing his victims like this. He's trying to influence them at a time when they need to be clear and objective about his criminal negligence. He gets worse and worse and worse every day this goes on. He's an absolute charlatan and scam artist. Keep this story alive until he's sitting in a jail cell for a long, long time.by Holly · 11 months ago

Saturn, you picked up on my point exactly - thank you. Speculation inflames a situation. There are at least two sides to everything and usually as many sides as there are people involved because everyone sees things differently to some degree. I have no problem with education, but stick to the facts without adding opinions and speculation. I've been to many JRI events. At the events you are highly encouraged to participate, but never forced to do anything beyond what you choose to do. I was never "starved" except at my own choosing for the experience. I've opted out of experiences that I personally wasn't ready to participate in and had no pressure from anyone to go against my gut decision. There is nothing wrong with exposing a situation as potentially dangerous to educate others, but when a person starts inserting their own opinions into the facts that goes beyond education and becomes persuasion.by judith · 11 months ago

The insensitivity of James Ray and his staff in the aftermath of two deaths and numerous injuries from the sweat lodge disaster is almost beyond words! These people have been traumitized and may have lasting physical and emotional problems from this "event". To have a generic conference call, throw in catch phrases like "stay plugged in" and lean on "harmonicly minded people", not to mention continuing to promote his events and facilitate them is unbelievable. Why couldn't he stay at Angel Valley and comfort both the injured and uninjured individuals who attended the ill-fated sweat lodge? Why didn't he talk to the police at the scene? Why hasn't he been to the hospital to visit those still there and spoken to the families? Where is his compassion? Is money, power, and his foundation more important than the people who trusted him? I feel for those affected by this retreat and hope they find closure and healing. His self-serving nature is very apparent.by Branden a Common Man · 11 months ago

I wanted to offer comment based upon 20 years of doing sweat lodges, vision quests and sun dances in the Lakota tradition. We do yearly vision quests where people go without food or water for three days and do sweats before and after the ceremony. These ceremonies require much preparation. It's not so much about the heat itself, although I was not there and it could have been too hot for too long. The two problems I see are the use of plastic tarps which do not breathe and a group size that is potentially unmanageable. As some have commented, how can a sweat leader tend to all those in a dark place such as a sweat lodge? While people can sometimes become weak on a vision quest or in a sweat lodge, we always check to see how all are doing and if anyone wants to leave, they can. Also, in the tradition of the red road we never charge a set fee. We suggest people offer a nominal donation from the heart, so we can cover our expenses. Some are able to give, others are not, all are welcome.by sis · 11 months ago

by Cheryl · 11 months ago

What a ridiculous article. James Arthur Ray did not intend for any harm towards the people attending his retreat. I think it is horrible that you are using this tragedy to produce ratings and numbers. Absolutely disgusting. James Arthur Ray is an incredible teacher, speaker, and author. This was just a horrible accident and nothing else.by Kurt · 11 months ago

by concerned · 11 months ago

by Saturn · 11 months ago

by Friend · 11 months ago

I have a friend that was burnt fairly badly in this incident. He has spend 10's of thousands of dollars and it takes a event like this for him to see what James really is. A confidence man. Let this be a lesson to all, if it seem too good (and too expensive) to be true, it is!!by Ruth · 11 months ago

by Realist · 11 months ago

I appreciate everything in your post, even though it may be brutal for followers of James Ray to swallow. I have been part of this movement and have attended Ray's events, as well as those of others. Unfortunately, it is painfully clear that the quiet, meditative time Ray has taken has been in part spent carefully crafting a legal defense. From what I have observed of him and attentively listened to him say, this is a man who leaves nothing to chance, but rather molds and shapes every iota of his life. He asks no questions for which he does not know the answer. Every phrase he utters, every word, is intended for a specific purpose. I know this is incredibly difficult for people who believe in James Ray to accept. The reason he left the scene and could not take the human and most natural step of being with those in his care who were in trouble was because he wanted to protect himself -- which he did brilliantly. This is unbelievably sad. But true.

Copyright © Clarity Digital Group LLC d/b/a Examiner.com.

Comments (http://http://www.examiner.com/speculative-fiction-in-philadelphia/breaking-news-transcript-of-private-call-between-james-ray-and-sweat-lodge-victims) on the above piece, "Breaking news: Transcript of private call between James Ray and sweat lodge victims (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=28923&p=378533#p378350)" (by Cassandra Yorgey; October 15th, 2009; Examiner.com), #s 51-75:

by Paul · 11 months ago

by rep · 11 months ago

by Bob · 11 months ago

by Lion Kimbro · 11 months ago

by The Explorer · 11 months ago

An aspect I don't believe anyone has commented on is to the extent the American culture is committed to the "warrior's way". I've seen several references to these people as "spiritual warriors" Why are our people so conditioned to the warrior's way" that we even use that way in our spiritual quests? Why do people feel they have to starve and torture themselves? Is it a type of penance for sins, or were they just like the leader Ray just there to figure out how to get more money. Until we turn from this greedy way of thinking, these types of things will continue to happen.by Dreamtimer · 11 months ago

I agree with the Explorer. The "warrior's way" is the problem. Our culture from movies and video games to how we treat other countries is colored by our assumption that the only way to deal with things or get what we want is the Warrior's Way. What happened to the people from the 60s? What happened to peace, love and flowers? not starving, sweating, and dying.by Realist · 11 months ago

I appreciate everything in your post, even though it may be brutal for followers of James Ray to swallow. I have been part of this movement and have attended Ray's events, as well as those of others. Unfortunately, it is painfully clear that the quiet, meditative time Ray has taken has been in part spent carefully crafting a legal defense. From what I have observed of him and attentively listened to him say, this is a man who leaves nothing to chance, but rather molds and shapes every iota of his life. He asks no questions for which he does not know the answer. Every phrase he utters, every word, is intended for a specific purpose. I know this is incredibly difficult for people who believe in James Ray to accept. The reason he left the scene and could not take the human and most natural step of being with those in his care who were in trouble was because he wanted to protect himself -- which he did brilliantly. This is unbelievably sad. But true.by Bob · 11 months ago

by Saturn · 11 months ago

by BREAKING NEWS · 11 months ago

http://www.ycsoaz.gov (http://www.ycsoaz.gov) or Yavapai Silent Witness 1-800-939-3232.[/list]
by Freddy · 11 months ago

by What? · 11 months ago

Large Group Awareness training? Cults? Interesting, that sounds exactly like every organized religion that is in existence. I am not a follower of James Arther Ray, but it is funny to me that people are so judgmental before they even know what happened. I understand though, you are being taught hate, fear, and judgment by your church's. If it is different from what you are told to believe by all means vilify it.by Realist · 11 months ago

I appreciate everything in your post, even though it may be brutal for followers of James Ray to swallow. I have been part of this movement and have attended Ray's events, as well as those of others. Unfortunately, it is painfully clear that the quiet, meditative time Ray has taken has been in part spent carefully crafting a legal defense. From what I have observed of him and attentively listened to him say, this is a man who leaves nothing to chance, but rather molds and shapes every iota of his life. He asks no questions for which he does not know the answer. Every phrase he utters, every word, is intended for a specific purpose. I know this is incredibly difficult for people who believe in James Ray to accept. The reason he left the scene and could not take the human and most natural step of being with those in his care who were in trouble was because he wanted to protect himself -- which he did brilliantly. This is unbelievably sad. But true.by rezgirl2002 · 11 months ago

Its a tragic loss when a human being is taken, but what ails me more is that non indians think that they can take our cermonies and proclaim that they can show you the way, Little do they know that this is a way of life for me and my people, its not ritual, its not to make money. It hurts me that lives were taken in the inipi because this ceremony is one of seven cermonies given to us to LIVE on this earth. Yet, these kind of incidents occur why? Materialistc? Gluttony? Greed? EGO? Its all a part of letting go and apparently James Arthur Ray has yet to believe in his own teachings. To the followers or supporters of this man, do not put man on a pedstal, always know that Creator is there cause man will always let you down, that advice was free and from the heart and passed on to me from my grandma and mom. My heart goes out to the family and friends and my family and I will pray hard for your healing....Jannellaby Paul · 11 months ago

by new age madness · 11 months ago

by Paul · 11 months ago

by NoMaya · 11 months ago

by Concerned · 11 months ago

by scary stuff · 11 months ago

by Saturn · 11 months ago

by Kurt · 11 months ago

by Rachel · 11 months ago

by Ex JRI Warrior · 11 months ago

i used to be one of James Ray's followers.....and I think it is very cult-like...i used to laugh about it when i was attending the events. but looking back on it, i am pretty shocked and a little scared about how I got sucked in and almost hypnotized by James and his teachings. For some reason I caught on to his hypocritical ways and decided to cut my losses...I even forfeited $4000 for one of his events that i signed up for and never attended. I guess that was my $4000 lesson....and thankfully so, otherwise I could have easily been one of the sweat lodge victims. I just hope that those that are currently under "the James Ray spell" can see the light and break free. My thoughts and prayers go out to the victims and the families...especially to my old friend Liz who is still in the hospital and was in a coma last time I checked.

Copyright © Clarity Digital Group LLC d/b/a Examiner.com.

Comments (http://http://www.examiner.com/speculative-fiction-in-philadelphia/breaking-news-transcript-of-private-call-between-james-ray-and-sweat-lodge-victims) on the above piece, "Breaking news: Transcript of private call between James Ray and sweat lodge victims (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=28923&p=378533#p378350)" (by Cassandra Yorgey; October 15th, 2009; Examiner.com), #s 76-100:

by The Stooge · 11 months ago

by robert · 11 months ago

by strange · 11 months ago

by The Truth · 11 months ago

Kurt, why pay for some fictional LGAT viral movie like WTB, when you can get a FREE opinion and education on the matter of James Ray's smoke lodge from the very people James Ray and others bastardized the idea from... THE NATIVE AMERICANS!by PrivateCall · 11 months ago

This was a PRIVATE CALL for the ones that were there - The ones that experienced this - Not the public - It is a sad thing this person did, A very Sad Thing ...selling out to the media for a buck.... you should be ashamed of yourself -- people have lost their lives and some are STILL in the hospital fighting to stay alive and you print this..............OMGby Cassandra Yorgey · 11 months ago

by NoMaya · 11 months ago

by doh · 11 months ago

by ceremonialist · 11 months ago

Sweat lodge is an amazing and beautiful ceremony given to the people for purification and connection to the great spirit. Ray was using it as propaganda to make money. My Native American grandfather always shakes his head at those who would charge money for these ceremonies or to capitalize on ceremony. It is disgusting that Ray would cram so many people into a "sacred space" to attempt to bend their will so to speak. Sad for the participants who paid $10,000 for an experience that should have been beautiful and free. Sadder still is that he had people going into the sweat lodge to pray for their improved financial well-being. That is not the point or purpose of this beautiful ceremony and I'm sad that people were so misguided by some cult leader that they looked up to. I hope this doesn't give sweat lodge ceremony a bad name.by Brian · 11 months ago

Congratulations to the article, it brings lots of great information to the public, hope the police is also reading it while they investigate. So James Ray has the audacity to say he was thinking he needs to take care of his people?! How sick is to learn this when I know that while the participants was pulling out those not capable of transporting themselves, performing CPR and fighting to survive, Mr Ray was looking at the scene like nothing was happening and drinking his energy stuff (taking care of HIMSELF). Where was the warrior in him at that moment? running to his room and hiding like a coward. For some one to think that because he was in it gives him any kind of excuse for abusing all the participants by going way out of control amazes me. He was in it because it was his show and his body was well care and prepared to be in it. If he really wants to take care of his people he could start now by answering the calls... to be continueby Brian · 11 months ago

one of the victims are still in critical condition in the hospital and where is Mr Ray? Is Mr Ray taking care of his responsibility and at least paying for the victims hospital bills? NO! his office does not even answer the calls. If he really mean what he says there are plenty of opportunities for him to practice responsibility and care. Maybe we need to help him to remember that his show end up with a widow and three children without a father. I bet all the victims and families are paying for all the expenses his action cased, he for sure is keeping each of their $9,000. I also bet that any one that offers any criticism to this article and to the person that gave Cassandra the transcript of the private call is part of his 'family'. While he gets rich and famous you 'followers' are getting powerless every minute. Can't you see it? its not that hard! He does not think of you for a second, all he thinks is himself. He putted your life in danger, run, hided, left you with all the damageby Brian · 11 months ago

and bills and you are still defending him? Please! Ending the call with "love you lots" is beyond manipulation. Walk your talk Mr Ray and show love, not by fake tears and empty words but actions of responsibility.by Ria · 11 months ago

I don't know James Ray and would never go to his seminars mostly because of the price. To me it's an outrageous amount of money. But, your article is simply you venting and dangerous in a world full of people spouting their opinions as if they had researched the issue enough to offer an opinion. You weren't there and I wasn't there and we don't know what happened, why it happened, how it happened, etc. In reading your article it also tells me that you are unfamiliar with the human growth movement. So you speak and write as an outsider, which is really easy to do. Not accurate and in my opinion dangerous. It's like commenting on a football game when you don't understand the game, think it's barbarous and it's something you've never spent anytime watching. If there is judgment to be made I believe it should be done by his peers, not someone who knows nothing about him or what he does. It's easy to pass judgment. It's wiser to shut up and listen and then decide.by hurt by James Ray · 10 months ago

by Brian · 10 months ago

Hi RIA! I do know James Ray and I offered allot of information in my post today that gives you a pretty good idea of his character. He is a selfish guy and has one thing in mind... his own success and recognition. For him, take people to extremes is a game, he looks for all the applauses he will get in the end, when they survive the game. To figure it out what happened is not that difficult. Look at the facts. Nothing about this sweat lodge was sacred and in the top of it the people was physically unprepared, what can one expect?by NoMaya · 10 months ago

by Brian · 10 months ago

Hi NoMaya, I think you are missing the point. Mr Ray did not offer his group of traumatized people free consultation with their counselor of choice, he brought in some one that will support his brain wash and as plus is not a certified professional. I think that CA is unique, to trust counseling with some one that self learn the process would not be my personal choice, for that reason we have Universities and years of devotion to develop tools. Self learned counselors are not different than James Ray when comes to leading Native America ceremony and look where it ended up.by Gaias Child · 10 months ago

Did these people fast for 36 hours, break it with a buffet breakfast, enter this overcrowded sweat for longer than two hours when their organs were managing a buffet breakfast? How is this delusional, conscienceless man not guilty of involuntary manslaughter? Now there are three people who did not survive and since when have these sacred ceremonies been used to gain wealth? Gross, criminal, and completely distorted.by Ellen · 10 months ago

by Saturn · 10 months ago

NoMaya... Great examples of people using oppressive tactics for evil! The Dalai Lama let torture (Such as eye gouging) and oppression go on in Tibet under his reign without even speaking up against it. And The Pope... Sorry I'm only allowed about 800 words of text. Not enough to cover that position! But great examples to compare James Ray to! Kudos!by Victoria · 10 months ago

NoMaya says there's no counselor licensing in California. This is not true. There are California State licenses issued for marriage and family therapists and for psychologists. California does not issue licenses for bachelor's level counselors, such as substance abuse counselors. But that doesn't mean that there are no licensed counselors. Marriage and family therapists are trained specifically to be counselors and have Master's degrees in counseing.by Attendee · 10 months ago

Ignorance breeds fear and contempt. Not everyone saw the events at this week the same. It is not a cult -- it is a group of individuals whose strongest desire is to improve their lives so they can be effective in the world. So mind your own damn business.by Wealthy Warrior · 10 months ago

My response to attendee is this - Is Howard's people talking to you? Or perhaps you are one of the Dream Team? Attendee said; "Not everyone saw the events at this week the same." How true! However I am inclined to respond to you in this way. I, too, am an attendee.... I, too, am one of a group of individuals whose strongest desire is to improve their lives so they can be effective in the world." Albeit I am VERY disturbed that you would tell anyone on this blog to "mind your own damn business". I personally want to heal and part of healing is not pretending it didn't happen or that I am ok - or others are ok. Part of healing is to say out loud, "I feel angry. I feel disappointed. I feel sad for all four of the people who are dead and I feel passionate James Ray is guilty of murder. That is my opinion. I am entitled to it. Please don't tell me or anyone on here to shut their mouth. I have a right to truth, reality and healing. If you don't like this conversation don't read it!

Copyright © Clarity Digital Group LLC d/b/a Examiner.com.

Comments (http://http://www.examiner.com/speculative-fiction-in-philadelphia/breaking-news-transcript-of-private-call-between-james-ray-and-sweat-lodge-victims) on the above piece, "Breaking news: Transcript of private call between James Ray and sweat lodge victims (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=28923&p=378533#p378350)" (by Cassandra Yorgey; October 15th, 2009; Examiner.com), #s 101-112:

by Ex JRI Warrior · 10 months ago

well said "wealthy warrior"....i was not there but I am a past participant of JRI events. and i think all that people are looking for on here is the truth....and preventing people from the same fate in the future. I think all the blaming, name calling and the rude comments are uncalled for.by andre · 10 months ago

by Steve · 10 months ago

by ScorpioMoon · 10 months ago

James Ray preaches The Secret, and that we each create our realities. He has created quite a reality. He is responsible for the death of three people, and the loss for countless others. He is a self-made guru, bases his teachings on financial gain. What person with integrity charges $9000 for a five day workshop, and put them in a situation like this, then forces them to push themselves beyond their physical limitations? Answer: Someone who is delusional, greedy, and has sold their soul to the proverbial devil. I'm not a Christian, but I know that the Bible speaks of wolves in sheep's clothing. Unfortunately, many of the self-made millionaire "spiritual" dynamos have become those wolves--selling at the back of the room.by been there · 10 months ago

wow. I am so glad for your work and critical and clear thinking. Abuse of people by un licensed non professionals is common. If you look up St Francis Adirondack Experience in Lake Placid NY and investigate that outfit, that may prove interesting to you.by Tracy · 10 months ago

By not including all the trascript, the author of this piece has guaranteed that the transcript parts quoted can be taken out of context, with the author's words influencing the reader's train of thought. In short, this author is doing exactly what the author claims James Ray is doing: directing people's thinking.by sneekysnake · 10 months ago

by Bryan · 9 months ago

Given what's happened, this was an extremely disturbing read for me, but the world needs to know. Thank you Cassandra and unnamed attendee.by objective1 · 6 months ago

this "cassandra" cleary is unconscious of her own intentions-what sick need in her is being fulfilled by calling the man names-She is obsessed with personally attacking him-I sense a very deep and personal hatred running through her articles-she is trying to start a lynch mob and has no knowlege whatsoever of spiritual growth or self improvement-Many of the principles James Ray taught are ancient truths-Clearly something went wrong in his teaching methods- The principles he teaches are sound-Nobody attacks christianity when a televangelist is caught using meth with a gay prostitute -Cassandra has appointed herself judge-jury-executioner-She is clearly trying to manipulate her "followers" in much the same way she claims JR is-what will you do Cassandra when your foolish and dangerous words fuel one of your followers to harm another-maybe you can share a cell with JR-by Cassandra Yorgey · 6 months ago

objective1: Why is my name in quotation marks? That makes no sense. Your "senses", by the way, are wrong. I have never attended a James Ray event of any sort and quite frankly, I haven't even met him. I also don't need a whole lot of spritual growth or studies in self-improvement to know "thou shalt not kill" is a damn good idea, regardless of who thought of it or currently enforces it. I have absolutely no say whatsoever in James Ray's trial or conviction, so I'm not sure how you think I get to be judge or jury and I certainly am not going to execute *anybody*. If you really want to call me names, a more accurate insult would be "opinionated little snot who gets access to heaps of evidence, information, and witness accounts before the general populace and has no problem using her professional column to tell everyone all about it".by Abby Isadora Haydon · 5 months ago

blissbabe2@gmail.com

by none · 3 months ago

You're an idiotic reporter. Just as sensational and uninformed as the accussed but on the opposite end of the spectrum.

Copyright © Clarity Digital Group LLC d/b/a Examiner.com.

Comments (http://http://www.examiner.com/speculative-fiction-in-philadelphia/breaking-news-transcript-of-private-call-between-james-ray-and-sweat-lodge-victims) on the above piece, "Breaking news: Transcript of private call between James Ray and sweat lodge victims (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=28923&p=378533#p378350)" (by Cassandra Yorgey; October 15th, 2009; Examiner.com), #s 101-112:

by Ex JRI Warrior · 10 months ago

well said "wealthy warrior"....i was not there but I am a past participant of JRI events. and i think all that people are looking for on here is the truth....and preventing people from the same fate in the future. I think all the blaming, name calling and the rude comments are uncalled for.by andre · 10 months ago

by Steve · 10 months ago

by ScorpioMoon · 10 months ago

James Ray preaches The Secret, and that we each create our realities. He has created quite a reality. He is responsible for the death of three people, and the loss for countless others. He is a self-made guru, bases his teachings on financial gain. What person with integrity charges $9000 for a five day workshop, and put them in a situation like this, then forces them to push themselves beyond their physical limitations? Answer: Someone who is delusional, greedy, and has sold their soul to the proverbial devil. I'm not a Christian, but I know that the Bible speaks of wolves in sheep's clothing. Unfortunately, many of the self-made millionaire "spiritual" dynamos have become those wolves--selling at the back of the room.by been there · 10 months ago

wow. I am so glad for your work and critical and clear thinking. Abuse of people by un licensed non professionals is common. If you look up St Francis Adirondack Experience in Lake Placid NY and investigate that outfit, that may prove interesting to you.by Tracy · 10 months ago

By not including all the trascript, the author of this piece has guaranteed that the transcript parts quoted can be taken out of context, with the author's words influencing the reader's train of thought. In short, this author is doing exactly what the author claims James Ray is doing: directing people's thinking.by sneekysnake · 10 months ago

by Bryan · 9 months ago

Given what's happened, this was an extremely disturbing read for me, but the world needs to know. Thank you Cassandra and unnamed attendee.by objective1 · 6 months ago

this "cassandra" cleary is unconscious of her own intentions-what sick need in her is being fulfilled by calling the man names-She is obsessed with personally attacking him-I sense a very deep and personal hatred running through her articles-she is trying to start a lynch mob and has no knowlege whatsoever of spiritual growth or self improvement-Many of the principles James Ray taught are ancient truths-Clearly something went wrong in his teaching methods- The principles he teaches are sound-Nobody attacks christianity when a televangelist is caught using meth with a gay prostitute -Cassandra has appointed herself judge-jury-executioner-She is clearly trying to manipulate her "followers" in much the same way she claims JR is-what will you do Cassandra when your foolish and dangerous words fuel one of your followers to harm another-maybe you can share a cell with JR-by Cassandra Yorgey · 6 months ago

objective1: Why is my name in quotation marks? That makes no sense. Your "senses", by the way, are wrong. I have never attended a James Ray event of any sort and quite frankly, I haven't even met him. I also don't need a whole lot of spritual growth or studies in self-improvement to know "thou shalt not kill" is a damn good idea, regardless of who thought of it or currently enforces it. I have absolutely no say whatsoever in James Ray's trial or conviction, so I'm not sure how you think I get to be judge or jury and I certainly am not going to execute *anybody*. If you really want to call me names, a more accurate insult would be "opinionated little snot who gets access to heaps of evidence, information, and witness accounts before the general populace and has no problem using her professional column to tell everyone all about it".by Abby Isadora Haydon · 5 months ago

blissbabe2@gmail.com

by none · 3 months ago

You're an idiotic reporter. Just as sensational and uninformed as the accussed but on the opposite end of the spectrum.

Copyright © Clarity Digital Group LLC d/b/a Examiner.com.

Here's the aforementioned (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=28923&p=379196#p378350) "part two." Emphasis as per the original:

-------------- • -------------- • --------------

Examiner.com
Breaking news: Inside accounts of James Ray sweat lodge tragedy and retreat (http://http://www.examiner.com/speculative-fiction-in-philadelphia/breaking-news-inside-accounts-of-james-ray-sweat-lodge-tragedy-and-retreat)
October 16th, 2009 3:36 pm ET · Cassandra Yorgey

People are flailing in seizures; others are vomiting violently, or foaming at the mouth. Bodies are lined up unconscious, some are blue from lack of oxygen, but for some it is too late, they are already dead. Survivors that are barely able to stand struggle to help the others, they have had almost no food or water for nearly three days, even longer without sleep. It looks like a war zone, but for the incongruent figure of James Arthur Ray (a contributing author to The Secret) who exits the sweat lodge and stands tall with a big smile, the only one able to stand on his own volition. He is not concerned with the medical emergency going on full swing around him. He is not worried about the health and well-being of his followers who have paid $10,000.00 (tack on an additional 5,000.00 or so if you include flights, room and board, and camping supplies) to attend his retreat. In fact, he and his team urge people to stop taking care of others and focus on their own journey, assuring them they are fine and only "purging". Someone finally realizes James Ray is not in control of the situation and calls 911.

It sounds like this is right out of a science fiction novel, doesn't it? But sadly, this is one of those rare times I pull my head out of a fantasy book and report on reality. How did a retreat aimed at spiritual growth and financial wealth go so horribly, tragically wrong? Those who were not present are pointing fingers at the physical experience of a sweat lodge – was it constructed properly by James Ray and his staff? Did they have the proper building permits? Did they use too many hot rocks or have too many participants? Does the government need to issue standardized guidelines for sweat lodge participants? After interviewing one of James Ray’s victims who was present at the retreat, I would argue no - although it is clear the technical specifications of the lodge were innapropriate. This is not an accident of negligence because a leader was untrained in the Native American sweat lodge practices. This tragedy is the consequence of a charismatic, megalomaniacal smooth-talker with undue influence and his own agenda – one that did not, at any point during the retreat, account for the safety of the participants, physically, mentally, or emotionally. This offends me as a backpacker and wilderness enthusiast, as a dabbler in psychological theory, and as someone who has an interest in bettering myself morally – but most importantly, it offends me as a human being who has compassion and empathy for my fellow humans.

Today I'm going to look deep into the soulless belly of the James Ray Spiritual Warrior retreat with thoughts and descriptions based on what I have learned from firsthand witnesses and participants. These brave victims are speaking in the midst of recovery (on the condition of anonymity) because of the urgency of the situation, as well as a moral obligation to the victims who passed away, Kirby Brown (38) and James Shore (40) and their families, and to those who can still be saved from this man. James Ray and the Angel Valley retreat have lied repeatedly, stating that they have never had any problems at previous retreats and that nothing like this has ever happened before - yet it is well documented that police are investigating multiple James Ray retreat locations and that a similar incident happened at the very same Angel Valley retreat center in AZ, at a James Ray retreat no less, in 2005. Why the lies? Well, there is no way these guys could tell you the truth without immediate prosecution, do not pass go, do not collect two hundred dollars, and proceed immediately to jail. Speaking of money, did you know neither James Ray nor Angel Valley has refunded any of the money they have collected from this retreat? I mean, obviously there will be lawsuits but it would be in good taste to refund the victims. It would be in better taste to also pick up the hospital charges, but James Ray is clearly not about accountability or decency to others. But enough about that, you want to know what the heck happened at this retreat and I am here to relay that to you.

Before the retreat even started, participants were advised to read The Holotropic Mind by Stanislav Grof and Hal Zina Bennett, as well as listen to a CD titled The Holosync Solution Awakening Prologue (the CD set is 175.00 dollars and not included in with the cost of the retreat, by the way). I have not read The Holotropic Mind personally, however Stanislav Grof is notable in the field of psychiatry for his studies on altered states of consciousness. After (briefly) searching Wikipedia and James Ray's personal website, I am unable to find any credentials that would qualify him to be using psychological techniques. His website only states he "has studied and been exposed to a wide diversity of teachings and teachers – from his collegiate learning and the schools of the corporate world, to the ancient cultures of Peru, Egypt and the Amazon." Pretty vague, huh? I mean, it's never killed James Ray to name-drop before *coughOprahcough*. Which schools? What teachers?

The first day or so of the retreat was mostly unremarkable as far as self-help retreats go – a lot of time spent in the "classroom" doing meditation and listening to other CD's as well as lectures. I say "mostly" because James Ray urged participants to forego sleep, insisting that working on their assignments all night would be more beneficial. Sleep deprivation is well-known to cause impairment of ability and of deductive reasoning, often times displaying comparable results to consumption of alcohol. Why would a self-help retreat supposedly focused on healing want to keep participants from thinking clearly? My guess is because the aim of the retreat was not self-improvement but coercive persuasion. If you are not familiar with the term it can be summed up as techniques used to produce ideological and behavioral changes in a fully conscious, mentally intact individual. Is this an acceptable practice? I would say it depends, like so many other things, on the execution. It certainly can be used to beneficial effect; however it can also employ means such as psychological pressure, hypnotic suggestion, undue influence, threats, anxiety, intimidation and/or stress in an unethical manner.

Some people might find it more alarming that immediately upon starting the retreat participants shaved their heads – before the sleep deprivation. Yes, even the women. This actually doesn't bother me at all. In fact, I think every woman should shave her head at least once in her life. Besides, all the kids are doing it. It's fashionable. It's also emotionally freeing. However, I know a lot of family members of the participants are upset about it – excuses such as "It looks dykey!" or "You're in a cult!" get tossed around, to which I roll my eyes. "Wait!" you're probably accusing me right now, "I read your transcript of the conference call James Ray made to these victims (http://http://www.examiner.com/x-11245-Philadelphia-Speculative-Fiction-Examiner~y2009m10d15-Breaking-news-transcript-of-private-call-between-James-Ray-and-sweat-lodge-victims), and you outright accuse him of being a cult leader!" Yes, you are absolutely right; I do state repeatedly that James Ray is a cult leader.

Many commenters chided me for using the term inappropriately, but I stand by my terminology. They were right to chide me though, because I didn't make clear that not all of James Ray's followers are cult members. Not even all of his victims could be considered cult members. This is a very important distinction that I want to take a moment to clear up. James Ray and his staff display cult-like qualities that are dangerous to the followers, from people who idly glanced at The Secret all the way through to the victims of his sweat lodge tragedy, but his followers are not a cult. One more time, for emphasis - James Ray's followers are not a cult. Reading his works, practicing some of his techniques at home by yourself, these things do not make a cult member. Not even attending the seminars guarantees membership into the ranks of cult. If James Ray spouted the crazy right up front no one would listen. Think of the tale of Hansel and Gretel – the Witch lured them in with a house made of delicious candy and then locked them in an oven. James Ray is smarter than the Witch though, because he stuffed Hansel and Gretel and their pockets full of candy and sent them back to the village to lure the others in. More people for the oven-oops-I-mean-sweat-lodge that way, you see. There is nothing wrong with sweat lodges, ovens, candy, or some of these teachings; it is all in how you use it. Now that we've cleared that up, let's get back to what happened at the deadly retreat.

Day Two the sleep deprivation has begun - but that by itself is not enough of a warning to foresee this tragedy. The real warning signs begin with the James Ray Games. One of the brave and recovering victims described a game they all had to play in which James Ray played God. Yep, you read that right; James Ray cast himself in the role of God and would then command participants to die. He would point at someone and they would have to fall down and play dead. They would be covered with a blanket and if they moved another person would "die".

Kirby Brown exemplified the dangerous psychological twisting behind these games. After the game she was seen standing in line for the outhouse, clutching herself and crying. After another participant ushered her to the front of the line they asked her "Why didn't you just get up and go?" She looked up sincerely and said she didn't want to ruin the game for others. It breaks my heart to know that James Ray took the life of such a compassionate woman away, a woman willing to suffer so others could benefit, but it also really pisses me off that he warped such a sweet motivation and used it masochistically. My inner neo-hippie rises up and shouts "Dude! No one should have to hold it so long it hurts!" That's just cruel.

"What was the motivation behind such games?" you are probably demanding of your computer screen right now. James Ray reasoned something along the lines of "it demonstrated the transcendental nature of death" and explained how it would allow participants to leave behind their fears of death. He spoke of honor, integrity, and strength. He spoke of being reborn (These are not direct quotes, they are adlibbed from the memories of participants).

At the end of the second day the James Ray Vision Quest began. I personally have done several vision quests in the desert so I do have an inkling of an idea of what I'm talking about here. I find the biggest red flags of dangerous indoctrination to be restriction of water, food, or bathroom breaks – So when I heard James Ray dropped everyone off in the desert with no food, no water, and nothing but a sleeping bag, the clothes on their back, and a notebook I start to sputter obscenities. No water, in the desert, for 36+ hours is dangerous. I've always been told to drink at least a gallon of water a day when hiking in the desert. Furthermore, even if the participants had been fully rested and cognitively ready to question the water restriction, it is still completely traditional (and uneccesary) to go without food on these solo journeys.

James Ray mixes a subtle combination of increasingly risky behavior with perfectly legitimate practices (http://http://www.examiner.com/x-11245-Philadelphia-Speculative-Fiction-Examiner~y2009m10d20-James-Ray-uses-teen-wilderness-program-techniques-on-adults-Interview-with-Brett-Merle) that leave these poor victims slightly confused and he keeps them physically in a hurry -preventing them from sitting down and taking the time to think these things through. We've all been in that state of mind. Who hasn't pulled an all-nighter studying just to be on autopilot the next day in class? Yeah, we can still function but it takes its toll. Now imagine before this all-nighter you've spent your classes working on trust exercises, being coddled by your professor and told how it's important to relearn trusting others. You will be taken care. You are provided for. Stop thinking about those things and focus on your inner journey. Just learn stuff. Of course, you've paid $15,000 dollars or so to be there, so you expect to be able to really relax and let go. This is why James Ray is such a dangerous man, anyone could fall into that trap. By the time the participants started to think "Hey, I should have really insisted on that canteen of sweet, delicious, life-giving water..." it's too late. They were stranded alone, in the dark, in an unknown location in the Arizona desert.

If you haven't done one of these vision quests it might be hard to understand how the participants didn't want to leave after that, but I assure you, it's a powerful experience even when you're fully rested and stuff yourself full of food and water. I imagine that sense of wonder and transformation is magnified when one is starving and dehydrated. Sleep was still hard to come by because most participants were not prepared for the devastating cold that comes over the desert at night. Participants were coerced into buying thickly woven Peruvian ponchos for additional charges of $250.00. While that price may seem exorbitant, one victim I interviewed was happy to have paid it, repeatedly stating that it was literally life-saving. The tightly woven material also kept out the intermittent rain, helping to keep participants dry. Still, sleep was hard to come by in those temperatures, being fitful at best and it hardly alleviated the impaired thinking that has become prevalent. It's easy to see how thinking could become distorted at this point – feelings of being ripped off by a leader and staff that didn't give proper information about necessary equipment are battling with rationalizations of how at least they pushed the extra gear on everyone instead of letting them freeze to death.

When James Ray's team finally returned to pick them up from their isolation (surprisingly enough, James Ray was not fasting on a vision quest during this period, nor were his staff – makes you wonder what they were doing, huh?) the participants were all so happy to be warm, with food and water, and thrilled to be surrounded by all their new friends who were all equally excited about their amazing transformative experiences, that the measly hour or so they had to eat and rehydrate themselves flew by. Food was hardly touched, most people opting to drink water first which quickly filled their newly shrunken stomachs. Before anyone had a chance to really recover the participants were whisked off to a group meditation (led by James Ray) and then to the final piece of the James Ray Spiritual Warrior Retreat. The sweat lodge.

We've painted a picture of the participants mental state leading up to the sweat lodge, and we know what happened when James Ray turned the relaxing Native American equivalent of a sauna into an endurance competition. He not only encouraged participants to stay and push past physical discomfort, he also actively dissuaded people that wanted to leave. The phrase "push through your threshold" was repeated often by James Ray. If participants didn't make it to the door fast enough they had to wait for the next round. James Ray would slam the tarp shut shouting "Too late! Door's shut!" and as he was sitting directly next to the door he was escalating it into a physical confrontation (not to mention he was the only one getting reprieve from the heat. Others could not feel a thing when the door was opened) – playing off something we are trained from birth to avoid. Throughout all this, James Ray is speaking words of encouragement. He speaks of how throwing up is good and actually purging (it isn't. it's actually a sign of dehydration and many other bad things), and explains that passing out is common (it isn't). He encourages people who find it too hot to bury their faces in the dirt, because it was cooler. This is like telling people to stay in a sauna and if it's too hot – hey, just stick your face by the bottom of the door!

These honorable participants tried time and time again to re-organize and keep everyone safe, but at every stage they were thwarted by James Ray and his staff. Participants who expressed concern over others were told time and time again to focus on their own journey, and not to interfere with another's. Once outside the enclosure some people were physically restrained from helping the rescue effort by staff members. One unconscious victim was dropped on their head while staff carried them out of the sweat lodge.

After paramedics responded, James Ray was escorted away by police; however he chose his right to silence. Police are reported to have released James Ray that evening, at which point he immediately left the state (this is based on other reports in the media).

This type of devastation isn't caused by a faulty sweat lodge, oh no, people will leave a faulty sweat lodge when left to their own devices. This is the fault of a leader who seems to think Jonestown was a super idea, and Hitler had some great technique. There are probably some who question my interpretations of the psychology here, and you should because I am not certified for this stuff in any way, so please contribute your own thoughts and research. My opinion is based on research of the following topics: Coercive persuasion, POW mind control studies, wilderness programs to rehabilitate delinquent youth as well as adult programs such as Landmark Education, the Milgram Experiment, Stockholm syndrome, Jonestown tragedy, cult psychology, and many other random topics that I've studied for my current work-in-progress.

What will other self-help gurus say about this kind of behavior? Will Oprah continue to endorse James Ray? When dealing with cult leaders and other dangerously charismatic people we must always remember to focus not on the beauty of one's words, but on the morality of one's actions.

For more info: I am not the only teen advocate speaking out. Shawna Bowen (http://http://teenandparentsupport.com/) is a licensed therapist who focuses on teens with substance abuse problems. I am not familiar with her body of work but the things she reveals in this interview seem to be supporting my own research. Click here (http://http://verdevalleyblog.com/2009/10/shawna-bowen-interviews-james-ray-sweat-lodge/) to see her on CBS.

Finally, I have been piecing this retelling together for days. Checking and re-checking to verify everything is as accurate as we can make it. I say "we" even though I was not there. This is not my story. I have offered my voice to victims that wish to remain faceless because, well, how can I not? These people are not only victims, but survivors. I offer them all my support, love, strength, and protection. It is my hope that in sharing this we can put an end to any victim-blaming and focus our efforts on providing a safe and loving place for victims to be able to come forth without fear, but until that time I ask everyone to respect the privacy of those affected by this tragedy. I feel honored by those who have stepped forth and extended me their trust, I know it is an amazing act of bravery and I will do my best to represent the honesty, integrity, and strength that James Ray failed to deliver.

Want to be notified of new articles? Subscribe to email notifications here (http://http://www.examiner.com/x-11245-Philadelphia-Speculative-Fiction-Examiner#fragment-3).

Follow me on Twitter here (http://http://twitter.com/CassandraYorgey).

In case the FTC is wondering (http://http://www.examiner.com/x-11245-Philadelphia-Speculative-Fiction-Examiner~y2009m10d5-Federal-Trade-Commission-attacks-bloggers--fines-up-to-11K), I do not endorse James Ray and he has never compensated me in any way.

Copyright © Clarity Digital Group LLC d/b/a Examiner.com.

Quote from: "Ursus"

Here's the aforementioned (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=28923&p=379196#p378350) "part two." Emphasis as per the original:

-------------- • -------------- • --------------

Examiner.com
Breaking news: Inside accounts of James Ray sweat lodge tragedy and retreat (http://http://www.examiner.com/speculative-fiction-in-philadelphia/breaking-news-inside-accounts-of-james-ray-sweat-lodge-tragedy-and-retreat)
October 16th, 2009 3:36 pm ET · Cassandra Yorgey

In case the FTC is wondering (http://http://www.examiner.com/x-11245-Philadelphia-Speculative-Fiction-Examiner~y2009m10d5-Federal-Trade-Commission-attacks-bloggers--fines-up-to-11K), I do not endorse James Ray and he has never compensated me in any way.

:rofl: :rofl:

ursus, it's time someone took a ball-peen hammer to your CTRL key. TL;DR :timeout:

I know you can write, Ive seen you do it. It's just been a while.

Ursus, are you bases this whole page after page of information solely on what, Cassandra Yorgey has to say, her opinion, she is not a expert, she is a journalist. You have thrown in some anecdotal opinions from around the country off of websites, ya know these sections they have at end of all sites at the bottom.
We can read them from the links you provide. The problem I have, is no hard evidence against the man. There is no pattern established as of yet, just some disgruntled participants spouting off.
Don't let me stop ya, I know your on a roll.

Quote from: "DannyB II"

Ursus, are you bases this whole page after page of information solely on what, Cassandra Yorgey has to say, her opinion, she is not a expert, she is a journalist. You have thrown in some anecdotal opinions from around the country off of websites, ya know these sections they have at end of all sites at the bottom.
We can read them from the links you provide. The problem I have, is no hard evidence against the man. There is no pattern established as of yet, just some disgruntled participants spouting off.
Don't let me stop ya, I know your on a roll.

Yah, well, I s'pose someone could say that your stories 'bout Elan being a hellhole are nothing but a whole lot of "anecdotal opinions" when you come right down to it, eh? I myself might not be so inclined, but someone with the kind of reasoning you just demonstrated above might well take such a tack...

Jes sayin', when it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

Quote from: "DannyB II"

Ursus, are you bases this whole page after page of information solely on what, Cassandra Yorgey has to say, her opinion, she is not a expert, she is a journalist.

Yes, she is a journalist and is doing her job.....reporting.

Quote

The problem I have, is no hard evidence against the man. There is no pattern established as of yet, just some disgruntled participants spouting off.

That's a matter of opinion. Apparently, the cops and the D.A.'s office felt there was enough evidence to file manslaughter charges against him. With a $5 million bond. That's a pretty significant bond, even for manslaughter. The "establishing a pattern" is what comes during the trial. Right now, they're still gathering and processing all the evidence.

And, sorry Danny but...the "disgruntled" participant bit is exactly how the TTI refers to anyone who dares to criticize them.

Quote

Don't let me stop ya, I know your on a roll.

I'm glad he's posting them and find it to be very interesting reading, especially the comments. I really think it's scary how so many people are so willing to hand themselves over to these self proclaimed "gurus" or "life coaches". It's ridiculous. Most of these people don't have the qualifications to be counseling my dog, let alone have that kind of influence over people. I think part of it is the goddamned "Oprah effect".

Quote from: "Ursus"

Quote from: "DannyB II"
Ursus, are you bases this whole page after page of information solely on what, Cassandra Yorgey has to say, her opinion, she is not a expert, she is a journalist. You have thrown in some anecdotal opinions from around the country off of websites, ya know these sections they have at end of all sites at the bottom.
We can read them from the links you provide. The problem I have, is no hard evidence against the man. There is no pattern established as of yet, just some disgruntled participants spouting off.
Don't let me stop ya, I know your on a roll.
Yah, well, I s'pose someone could say that your stories 'bout Elan being a hellhole are nothing but a whole lot of "anecdotal opinions" when you come right down to it, eh? I myself might not be so inclined, but someone with the kind of reasoning you just demonstrated above might well take such a tack...

Jes sayin', when it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

Well, there is just one problem with your analogy up there Anne, I have maybe 2 paragraphs of posts concerning Elan, spread out over 10 months. One would have to be very interested in reading my anecdotal opinions to find them.
Now maybe your bias for Ursus is leaking through your post, above.

Quote from: "DannyB II"

Well, there is just one problem with your analogy up there Anne, I have maybe 2 paragraphs of posts concerning Elan, spread out over 10 months. One would have to be very interested in reading my anecdotal opinions to find them.

Oh, it wasn't an analogy....it was a direct comparison. What you said about "disgruntled patients" is exactly what programs say about kids or their parents who dare to question their so-called "treatment" in the TTI.

Quote

Now maybe your bias for Ursus is leaking through your post, above.

Bias for Ursus? What, you seriously think I'm gonna base my opinion on this New Warrior bullshit on what Ursus says? I mean, sure I like the guy but c'mon....gimme credit for having my own mind. I find that newage garbage just as creepy, if not more, than the TTI - all by my little lonesome. Adults actually sign up for this crap...kids are forced into it.

Quote from: "DannyB II"

Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "Whooter"

It seems you are the one that feels threatened.

Gee...I wonder why?

Quote from: "DannyB II"
Well then keep drumming because your solo. Joel your not even with someone and neither is your brother. DUh.....I have been with two women in my life, one passed on and I am currently with the second. She has posted here and has had some serious comments for Anne and Felice. I/we have absolutely no respect for them then again I have showed no mercy on Ursus, Che, DJ, Paul (lill johnny) and yourself dickwad I don't give a flying fuck what you think of me,. I'll kick Annes ass as sure as I will kick your ass. Don't like it, take your balls and go home.
Don't like what I have to say about Anne, go back and read and you will see who started the vulgar deprecating verbal attacks. You have always seemed to have no memory.
Don't come around with some moronic psycho-babble, you know nothing about.
Keep trying your diversion Joel, sorry though (3) of us have our feet planted right on Anne's ass.
You were just a snack during intermission.

Bye Bye sissyboy.

Anne, shut your pie hole and suck it up, ya baby. No, Anne, I said I would kick your ass.... :roflmao:
Oh, hear we go. Danny said he was going to kick my ass. OH boo hoo, I'm so scared I peed my pants. Would Anne, Joel and BP like some depends for your protection. Right now I am kicking your ass, how does it feel.
I just love how you folks make such a big deal out of what I say. That is why I say it. Because I love to see you folks cry.
Oh Danny is threatening me, Danny is sexually assaulting me, Danny is doing this, Suck-It is doing that, Tim is doing this, Whooter is doing that and bla bla bla.........
Guys step off you freaking pansies. Go cry to the authorities or other wise suck it up. You get what ya get because you give what ya give.

See, whenever someone threatens DannyBoi's worldview, he gets upset and throws tantrums. He makes threats, hints that he has "inside info" about you and all sorts of other weird stuff. I wonder if they teach that at this New Warrior Training?

.

Quote from: "DannyB II"

Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "DannyB II"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "Whooter"

It seems you are the one that feels threatened.

Gee...I wonder why?

Quote from: "DannyB II"
Well then keep drumming because your solo. Joel your not even with someone and neither is your brother. DUh.....I have been with two women in my life, one passed on and I am currently with the second. She has posted here and has had some serious comments for Anne and Felice. I/we have absolutely no respect for them then again I have showed no mercy on Ursus, Che, DJ, Paul (lill johnny) and yourself dickwad I don't give a flying fuck what you think of me,. I'll kick Annes ass as sure as I will kick your ass. Don't like it, take your balls and go home.
Don't like what I have to say about Anne, go back and read and you will see who started the vulgar deprecating verbal attacks. You have always seemed to have no memory.
Don't come around with some moronic psycho-babble, you know nothing about.
Keep trying your diversion Joel, sorry though (3) of us have our feet planted right on Anne's ass.
You were just a snack during intermission.

Bye Bye sissyboy.

Anne, shut your pie hole and suck it up, ya baby. No, Anne, I said I would kick your ass.... :roflmao:
Oh, hear we go. Danny said he was going to kick my ass. OH boo hoo, I'm so scared I peed my pants. Would Anne, Joel and BP like some depends for your protection. Right now I am kicking your ass, how does it feel.
I just love how you folks make such a big deal out of what I say. That is why I say it. Because I love to see you folks cry.
Oh Danny is threatening me, Danny is sexually assaulting me, Danny is doing this, Suck-It is doing that, Tim is doing this, Whooter is doing that and bla bla bla.........
Guys step off you freaking pansies. Go cry to the authorities or other wise suck it up. You get what ya get because you give what ya give.

See, whenever someone threatens DannyBoi's worldview, he gets upset and throws tantrums. He makes threats, hints that he has "inside info" about you and all sorts of other weird stuff. I wonder if they teach that at this New Warrior Training?

So you came all the way over here to make this point. Yah, one of those real got 'cha posts. :rofl:

Ummm, yeah...it is. You physically threaten women who you feel intellectually threatened by.

.

Quote from: "DannyB II"

Really, I think instead of hurling accusations around of me threatening you,

It's not just an accusation. You admitted and and expanded on it.

Quote

maybe we should be asking ourselves what is going on with Anne, that she always runs to the victim role. Anne, you are a big girl now and I am not your father.

Thank FSM!!

Quote

This is not a LGAT and I am not a staff member anymore

.

Coulda fooled me cuz you sure do act like one. But I guess that's what comes from a lifetime of following LGATs and chasing after wannabe gurus.

Quote

Please repeat after me.....I am a big girl, I am not a victim, this is not a LGAT, Danny is not my father.
Keep going on your own, you'll get there.

You're a very odd man DannyBoi.

.

Quote from: "DannyB II"

Anne, ADHD is a problem I know but hey, work with me here.

You have ADHD? I'm sorry. I should have guessed.

.

Getting back to the last article, here are comments (http://http://www.examiner.com/speculative-fiction-in-philadelphia/breaking-news-inside-accounts-of-james-ray-sweat-lodge-tragedy-and-retreat) left for the above piece, "Breaking news: Inside accounts of James Ray sweat lodge tragedy and retreat (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=28923&start=225#p379196)" (by Cassandra Yorgey; October 16th, 2009; Examiner.com), #s 1-25:

by Trish · 11 months ago

My heart is literally pounding out of my chest reading this! I am outraged at James Ray and his cult leaders. These people were like lambs to the slaughter, but they had to pay thousands for it. He should be sued for everything he has but that will not bring back the dead. You have people attending his meetings who have been abused, who have self-doubt, who are trying to become stronger and more powerful AND THIS IS WHAT THEY GET? I dont' even know what to say after this except that the universe rights itself James, so watch out...by native woman · 11 months ago

by native woman · 11 months ago

I say this because no one seems to question people that do this. I believe those people died and got hurt because James Ray didn't know how to properly run that lodge. Did anyone ask questions?by Mary Ann · 11 months ago

Breaks my heart that they went through this. I too offer love and support to them as they work to learn to trust again.by Lynn · 11 months ago

by A friend · 11 months ago

by Duff · 11 months ago

Thank you, thank you, thank you. You are a hero.by Critical Thinker · 11 months ago

Questioning such people are discouraged. They mock the questioner as being "negative" and imply even the slightest criticism is "proof" of the questioner's heresy. You see this all the time among the Secret "teachers"--Vitale, Schirmer, Ray--they all spout the same money-cult blame-the-victim lines. Ask 'em a question they don't want to answer, and time by the second hand on your watch how quickly it's turned on the questioner. Give 'em extra points if they use any of the following terms: "negative" "jealous" "destructive" or the ever-popular "I feel sorry for (the questioner)".by Dave · 11 months ago

by Incredulous · 11 months ago

by Bob Schnebly · 11 months ago

by Curious · 11 months ago

by Incredulous · 11 months ago

by Disturbed · 11 months ago

I was at CAW July 24-26 and was never made aware that any of the participants were missing much less dead despite the fact a "buddy" system was in place. I found out due to this recent tragedy that there was in fact a tragedy at my event too. I have only received good from the teachings that I have learned at events however I realize now that safety and concern of the participants is left at the door. There is definitely an air of time limited preparation if any and you never know where you are going to go. Granted this creates an aire of concern for your safety and does get you out of your comfort zone which is good. Many never reach their potential due to being stuck in "the same". But again, it must be done properly so there is only a belief you are in danger not actual danger. Less than that is a careless act of the host & means tragedy is just a matter of time. His lessons are destroyed by his actions regardless of how true they may be.by MLWilde · 11 months ago

by DJ · 11 months ago

by Karin Hiebert · 11 months ago

by Corinne · 11 months ago

I was a member of Seaside Church in Encinitas, CA where James Ray's Parents both attend regularly. James Ray brought his "building wealth" seminar to us for a nominal fee, and when I went up to talk to him about my hesitation to pay $750 (after I'd already spent close to 10k on Judith Kravitz's Transformational Breathwork, as well as on Byron Katie's The Work, I was about "GURU'd" "Motivational Speakered" OUT! When I said I couldn't afford it now, he immediately dismissed me & moved his eyes from me and on to the next person he could convice. I realized then that all these types of people who offer seminars are just unable to work in the "regular sector" and it is most unfortunate that so many are looking outside thenselves for what can ONLY be found from within, because all the answers you are looking for are already available to YOU by YOURSELF, no anyone else! Build your network for support amongst family and friends, not motivational speakers & workshop leaders--Love Yourselfby Henry · 11 months ago

by Ruth · 11 months ago

by Julie · 11 months ago

Thank you for this information. I attended last year and I'm stunned and heartsick to hear James would not let them out. That's inexcusable! Our event was similar but also VERY different because we were all able to go out when we felt we needed to. Oh my God, no wonder it ended so badly! I was not aware they were actually trapped or blocked from leaving. If that is the case, it makes the tragedy even worse. Mental coersion is bad enough but also physically preventing them from leaving? My heart breaks for these people.by Dan · 11 months ago

Great rememberance of the event. One mistake, the Vision Quest was 24 hours in 2005. Otherwise reading this article was accurate. I chose to leave early in 2005. I was the first to exit and thank God that others followed me.by Cassandra Yorgey · 11 months ago

by Mourning. · 11 months ago

Quote from: "Ursus"

Getting back to the last article, here are comments (http://http://www.examiner.com/speculative-fiction-in-philadelphia/breaking-news-inside-accounts-of-james-ray-sweat-lodge-tragedy-and-retreat) left for the above piece, "Breaking news: Inside accounts of James Ray sweat lodge tragedy and retreat (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=28923&start=225#p379196)" (by Cassandra Yorgey; October 16th, 2009; Examiner.com), #s 1-25:

by Trish · 11 months ago
My heart is literally pounding out of my chest reading this! I am outraged at James Ray and his cult leaders. These people were like lambs to the slaughter, but they had to pay thousands for it. He should be sued for everything he has but that will not bring back the dead. You have people attending his meetings who have been abused, who have self-doubt, who are trying to become stronger and more powerful AND THIS IS WHAT THEY GET? I dont' even know what to say after this except that the universe rights itself James, so watch out...

Quote

by native woman · 11 months ago

Do any of you James Ray followers ask him if he knows what he is doing in that lodge? Whats the name of the person who taught him that and would they vouch for him? Did he ask if anyone had any health concerns before they went in? Did you EVEN ask questions? Are you discouraged from asking questions or looked down on if you do? Are you given real answers that you are satisfied with?
Before you went into that lodge did you feel you could trust that man with your life?

If I dont feel any safe answers to these questions about someone who says they can run a sweat. I DON'T go in.

ANYONE CAN TELL YOU THAT THEY ARE CAPABLE OR ALLOWED TO RUN A SWEAT!! Not everyone is telling you the truth.

Look up "New age Fraud" before you try to attend one of these things you call a "native american ritual" run by some nonnative who was taught by some white guy who was taught by his mom who was adopted into the XXX tribe became their medicine woman!!! why? cuz that's a lie!!!

by native woman ·11 months ago

say this because no one seems to question people that do this. I believe those people died and got hurt because James Ray didn't know how to properly run that lodge. Did anyone ask questions?

For all here, read the comments, "native women" makes, then maybe you will stop being a follower of the, "I blame every one else in my life for my decisions, crusade".
Ursus the originator of this thread is a strong believer in this and would like to convince you that with a fist full of money and a lawyer you too can be like me. Make any decision you want and not worry about the consequences, it is not your fault. I know doesn't make any sense.

by Mary Ann · 11 months ago
Breaks my heart that they went through this. I too offer love and support to them as they work to learn to trust again.
by Lynn · 11 months ago
Woooowww. That man needs to be put out of commission.

Excellent article, Cassandra. The description by attendees (finally!) closely matched what I had imagined in my mind after researching the kind of man James Ray appears to be and getting some insight into his ego and his almost sociopathic responses to people's suffering, both now and in the past. It's aaaallll about him, after all, isn't it? Scary and sad.
by A friend · 11 months ago
Typo you can easily repair:
>>You will be taken care. You are provided for.
Thank you -- too astonished to comment right now.
by Duff · 11 months ago
Thank you, thank you, thank you. You are a hero.
by Critical Thinker · 11 months ago
Questioning such people are discouraged. They mock the questioner as being "negative" and imply even the slightest criticism is "proof" of the questioner's heresy. You see this all the time among the Secret "teachers"--Vitale, Schirmer, Ray--they all spout the same money-cult blame-the-victim lines. Ask 'em a question they don't want to answer, and time by the second hand on your watch how quickly it's turned on the questioner. Give 'em extra points if they use any of the following terms: "negative" "jealous" "destructive" or the ever-popular "I feel sorry for (the questioner)".
by Dave · 11 months ago
Excellent work. This guy, and others like him, are truly despicable and dangerous, yet they always seem to carry on with their programs unencumbered by guilt or shame, regardless of any evidence of their immoral, often criminal actions. Amazing. There has to be some way to hold them accountable.

I wish the best for the victims of his abuse, and I can only hope they reject his sliminess and come out in force to testify against him. Never mind lawsuits - this creep needs to go to prison.
by Incredulous · 11 months ago
I've watched and both liked and not liked James Ray for a few years now. I despised his pompous, arrogant, I'm so great talk, "I can help you - let me help you" in his videos, teleseminars, radio interviews. I think he truly believes he is annointed to raise up "the masses". Problem is NO ONE OTHER THAN ONESELF CAN RAISE UP ONESELF.

That's what all Spiritual Warrior was about, to create an experience that participants would identify as enlightenment so they would "attach" to James Ray and rave about his expensive events.

Megalomaniac describes it well. It also explains ALL that behavior that turned me off so many times I observed it.

Pure and simple, this man killed those people. To play with the flap door like that, physically stopping emergency exits? I'm speechless, ONLY a megalomaniac could do such a thing.

In this Universe one always gets back what one puts out. It's James turn to receive back that which he has wrought upon others.

My heart is with the surv
by Bob Schnebly · 11 months ago
This man James Ray needs to be held accountable for this in no uncertain terms... We need to get him off the streets. NOW!!!

Bob
by Curious · 11 months ago
Hi Cassandra, Can you check this out please? Did Colleen Marian Conaway die while attending a James Arthur Ray, Creating Absolute Wealth Seminar in San Diego CA Jul 24-26 2009?
Did she die while attending a "group field trip to Horton Plaza Mall" as part of the seminar?
by Incredulous · 11 months ago
I've watched and both liked and not liked James Ray for a few years now. I despised his pompous, arrogant, I'm so great talk, "I can help you - let me help you" in his videos, teleseminars, radio interviews. I think he truly believes he is annointed to raise up "the masses". Problem is NO ONE OTHER THAN ONESELF CAN RAISE UP ONESELF.

That's what all Spiritual Warrior was about, to create an experience that participants would identify as enlightenment so they would "attach" to James Ray and rave about his expensive events.

Megalomaniac describes it well. It also explains ALL that behavior that turned me off so many times I observed it.

Pure and simple, this man killed those people. To play with the flap door like that, physically stopping emergency exits? I'm speechless, ONLY a megalomaniac could do such a thing.

In this Universe one always gets back what one puts out. It's James turn to receive back that which he has wrought upon others.

My heart is with the surv
by Disturbed · 11 months ago
I was at CAW July 24-26 and was never made aware that any of the participants were missing much less dead despite the fact a "buddy" system was in place. I found out due to this recent tragedy that there was in fact a tragedy at my event too. I have only received good from the teachings that I have learned at events however I realize now that safety and concern of the participants is left at the door. There is definitely an air of time limited preparation if any and you never know where you are going to go. Granted this creates an aire of concern for your safety and does get you out of your comfort zone which is good. Many never reach their potential due to being stuck in "the same". But again, it must be done properly so there is only a belief you are in danger not actual danger. Less than that is a careless act of the host & means tragedy is just a matter of time. His lessons are destroyed by his actions regardless of how true they may be.

Quote
by MLWilde · 11 months ago

Like Incredulous, I have been both intrigued and repelled by James Ray. I met him in person with my infant daughter and his energy was like a block of lead - nothing inside. Sort of a locked energy and it was not very authentic. For someone like me, who is an empath, that said a lot.

I do not presume (like the author) to make assumptions about the retreat or Ray's ultimate intentions for his work. I am saddened that people will put unwavering faith in such guru figures.

We are all messengers for one another. We all respond to different packaging. I didn't like Rays overall packaging but I don't necessarily see him as inherently evil or as a megalomaniac. His intentions now are irrelevant, however telling his subsequent actions seem to be.

Teachers are just that, teachers. Take their words, find your truth and always listen to your inner voice. I don't think we need to point fingers at James Ray but to find the compassion to educate others and heal our own hearts.
[/b]

Another story for the sheep to read. Stop blaming others for your decisions.

by DJ · 11 months ago
Ditto!

I am speechless. What are the authorities in the USA and Australia doing about these people? People have been crying out for help for years without anyone listening. People have been intimidated, manipulated, abused, threatened, silenced, deceived, stolen from, told they were so negative just because they have an opinion or question someone and the list goes on and on and not one authority has done anything about it. Now we have several deaths that have made it to the media both in the US and Australia but WHAT ARE THE AUTHORITIES DOING? These people need shutting down immediately, at least until a full investigation has been conducted into the teachers qualifications, students interviewed (and not the ones that these teaches think should be interviewed, the ones who have walked away in disgust which actually seems to be the majority now) and the business accounts of these people thoroughly and forensically investigated. I would be a very very willing participant,thanks
by Karin Hiebert · 11 months ago
Ditto -- to what Duff SAID!

Read more;

saltydroid.info

by Corinne · 11 months ago
Quote

I was a member of Seaside Church in Encinitas, CA where James Ray's Parents both attend regularly. James Ray brought his "building wealth" seminar to us for a nominal fee, and when I went up to talk to him about my hesitation to pay $750 (after I'd already spent close to 10k on Judith Kravitz's Transformational Breathwork, as well as on Byron Katie's The Work, I was about "GURU'd" "Motivational Speakered" OUT! When I said I couldn't afford it now, he immediately dismissed me & moved his eyes from me and on to the next person he could convice. I realized then that all these types of people who offer seminars are just unable to work in the "regular sector" and it is most unfortunate that so many are looking outside thenselves for what can ONLY be found from within, because all the answers you are looking for are already available to YOU by YOURSELF, no anyone else! Build your network for support amongst family and friends, not motivational speakers & workshop leaders--Love Yourself
[/b]

These are messages underlined here that Corinne is so passionately saying, stop being followers, do not abandon yourself to anyone.

by Henry · 11 months ago
This is one of the best written report on this desateer event
Iam a student of Stanislav Groff ..and its is shoking that he as
mix the good name of dr Groff to this desaster
Shoking ...and many more seminar are advertize James ray web sites who will stop him
by Ruth · 11 months ago
While interesting, there's an awful lot of opinion and hearsay in this article. It's unfortunate that Cassanadra cannot name her sources, as I find it odd that no one else, anywhere that I've looked, has interviewed and reported on the personal experiences of the participants, including the participants themselves.

None of us were there, and therefore, it's all speculation. It's a big fat mess, and we can only wait and see what happens next.

Having said that, I will say I've been to two of James' seminars, and they were, literally, life-changing. My life and outlook has changed and for that I owe a huge thanks to James, because his work helped facilitate that change I so wanted and needed. I had no plans to go to any further seminars, not because I think he's a charlatan, snake oil salesman, etc, but because I got what I needed from him, and my lessons are taking me in a different direction.
by Ruth · 11 months ago
Prt 2: And while the prices he charges are really outrageous, I still think the money I paid was completely worth it. What's is it worth to change your life around? Can you put a price on that? A powerful teacher indeed.
But just because the teacher has failed spectacularly does not mean the teachings are not valid. Don't confuse the teachings with the teacher.
I'm sure James' lawyers are saying, "Admit nothing!" but it doesn't matter whether he would increase his chances of going to jail by admitting any culpability--it was/is the right thing to do. Be accountable--that's James' mantra, and one I agree with. I cannot understand how leaving the scene, not being with those who were injured, refusing to talk to the police and refusing to say anything about his responsibility, is accountable. Yet, ultimately, I believe he will step up and be counted.
And even though some of his devotees believe James is innocent, I'm quite sure this is going to haunt him for the rest of his days.
by Julie · 11 months ago
Thank you for this information. I attended last year and I'm stunned and heartsick to hear James would not let them out. That's inexcusable! Our event was similar but also VERY different because we were all able to go out when we felt we needed to. Oh my God, no wonder it ended so badly! I was not aware they were actually trapped or blocked from leaving. If that is the case, it makes the tragedy even worse. Mental coersion is bad enough but also physically preventing them from leaving? My heart breaks for these people.
by Dan · 11 months ago
Great rememberance of the event. One mistake, the Vision Quest was 24 hours in 2005. Otherwise reading this article was accurate. I chose to leave early in 2005. I was the first to exit and thank God that others followed me.
by Cassandra Yorgey · 11 months ago
Great comments everyone!

Just to be clear, the above article is in reference to the October 2009 Spiritual Warrior retreat. While there is discussion on the 2005 event going on, I do not yet have enough information to speak authoratatively on that.
by Mourning. · 11 months ago
Thank You.

Copyright © Clarity Digital Group LLC d/b/a Examiner.com.

Quote from: "DannyB II"

Quote
by native woman · 11 months ago

Do any of you James Ray followers ask him if he knows what he is doing in that lodge? Whats the name of the person who taught him that and would they vouch for him? Did he ask if anyone had any health concerns before they went in? Did you EVEN ask questions? Are you discouraged from asking questions or looked down on if you do? Are you given real answers that you are satisfied with?
Before you went into that lodge did you feel you could trust that man with your life?

If I dont feel any safe answers to these questions about someone who says they can run a sweat. I DON'T go in.

ANYONE CAN TELL YOU THAT THEY ARE CAPABLE OR ALLOWED TO RUN A SWEAT!! Not everyone is telling you the truth.

Look up "New age Fraud" before you try to attend one of these things you call a "native american ritual" run by some nonnative who was taught by some white guy who was taught by his mom who was adopted into the XXX tribe became their medicine woman!!! why? cuz that's a lie!!!

by native woman ·11 months ago

I say this because no one seems to question people that do this. I believe those people died and got hurt because James Ray didn't know how to properly run that lodge. Did anyone ask questions?
For all here, read the comments, "native women" makes, then maybe you will stop being a follower of the, "I blame every one else in my life for my decisions, crusade".
Ursus the originator of this thread is a strong believer in this and would like to convince you that with a fist full of money and a lawyer you too can be like me. Make any decision you want and not worry about the consequences, it is not your fault. I know doesn't make any sense.

Danny, I fully agree with your resonance with native woman's advocating for common sense and critical assessment. If more people approached important decisions in their life this way, then maybe we'd have a lot less of these unfortunate incidents brought about by the greed of irresponsible quacks and hucksters (kinda like what happens in a lot of these programs in the TTI, if you ask me).

However, lack of common sense and critical thought does not necessarily equate to a "blam[ing] every one else in my life for my decisions crusade." Nor does lack of common sense and critical thought on the part of James Ray sweat lodge participants, if such is what it was, in any way lessen or even impact the moral culpability of James Ray and James Ray International for running the sweat lodge the way it was apparently run.

Incidentally, speaking of a "blam[ing] every one else in my life for my decisions crusade," where on earth do you get the idea that *I* ... am a "strong believer in this?" And where, pray tell, does the picture of "a fist full of money and a lawyer" come from? Have your sooper seekret "sources" been bending your ear too much? :rofl: Be careful where those "voices" from, ol' chap, you don't wanna get played for a fool.

Btw, I am also not the originator of this thread, although I kinda doubt that this fact will in any way sway your belief. I am under few illusions, at this point, that such a minor detail could possibly impact the sheer magnitude of your apparently quite strongly held preconceptions. ;)

duplicate

Ursus the originator of this thread is a strong believer in this and would like to convince you that with a fist full of money and a lawyer you too can be like me. Make any decision you want and not worry about the consequences, it is not your fault. I know doesn't make any sense.

Quote

Ursus wrote:
Danny, I fully agree with your resonance with native woman's advocating for common sense and critical assessment. If more people approached important decisions in their life this way, then maybe we'd have a lot less of these unfortunate incidents brought about by the greed of irresponsible quacks and hucksters (kinda like a lot of these programs in the TTI are run, if you ask me).

I did too, native women nailed it as far as I see it.
Adults Ursus, these are adults. Maybe if we stopped coddling adults for their irresponsible quackery, "I want to get better now" huckster routine, then your right, unfortunate incidents would not happen. These hucksters are on both sides.
Zanxax became poplar this way, hey pop a pill and you'll be fine. Go to James, your life changes. They believe this crap before they leave their living rooms because they want to.

Quote

Ursus wrote
However, lack of common sense and critical thought does not necessarily equate to a "blam[ing] every one else in my life for my decisions crusade." Nor does lack of common sense and critical thought on the part of James Ray sweat lodge participants, if such is what it was, in any way lessen the moral culpability of James Ray International for running the sweat lodge the way it was apparently run.

We will have to see, (trial, judicial process) we already know something went wrong, folks died and were injured. So lets run the that, I have a major issue with common sense and critical thought and the lack of responsibility to use them, then when it is evident you did not, well, then we switch to hey, James Ray is morally deficient.

Ursus, you like to play that moral card little to much, very quick to pull it out.

Yah, Ray may be full of himself like any other person that has had large success (Bill O'Reily and Oprah Winfrey) moral ineptness (maybe) but down right screwing people (lying) com'on.

Quote

Incidentally, speaking of a "blam[ing] every one else in my life for my decisions crusade," where on earth do you get the idea that *I* ... am a "strong believer in this?" And where, pray tell, does the picture of "a fist full of money and a lawyer" come from? Have your sooper seekret "sources" been bending your ear too much? :rofl: Be careful where those "voices" from, ol' chap, you don't wanna get played for a fool.

Is there ever going to be a time when you can mind your own business and just comment on quotes that were specifically made to you. You love to run around this board snatching comments from everywhere and hurling them back at posters.
You wonder why we say the things about you, you act like a neglected housewife.
My comments were to Anne, tongue and cheek or not but still for Anne.

Ursus, this is you whole spiel here, the great defender for the irresponsible. You advocate for folks who make decisions based on their sense of helplessness (laziness, procrastination, slothfulness) and when they don't work out (self fulfilling prophesy) you come in to enable them to find an excuse.
Great a perpetuating circle of deniable actions.
Problem, nobody really benefits.
Hmmmm.......James Ray, MKP, Programs (TTI) it is all their fault, they set it all up, to swindle, terrorize and kill.
My man Ursus, has it all figured out.
Ursus, your crazy as most of your beliefs...... :D have you forgotten that there are mainstream thoughts, come back.

Quote

Btw, I am also not the originator of this thread, although I kinda doubt that this fact will in any way sway your belief. I am under few illusions, at this point, that such a minor detail could possibly impact the sheer motherlode of your apparently quite strongly held preconceptions.

Nope, Ursus, not preconceptions. They are monitored daily. You can sway my belief, you just choose not to.
Illusions, your right but can we bring in the delusional behavior you show, at times. :rofl:

Got'ta admit that was funny.

Onwards... to some more comments (http://http://www.examiner.com/speculative-fiction-in-philadelphia/breaking-news-inside-accounts-of-james-ray-sweat-lodge-tragedy-and-retreat) left for the above piece, "Breaking news: Inside accounts of James Ray sweat lodge tragedy and retreat (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=28923&start=225#p379196)" (by Cassandra Yorgey; October 16th, 2009; Examiner.com), #s 26-50:

by Mourning. · 11 months ago

by Former employee · 11 months ago

A third person has passed away from this tragedy. When are the authorities going to act??by Kay · 11 months ago

This is a lesson for all of us who seek truth and wisdom within for the coming times. I agree with Corinne. This is telling us that we are to look within at this time, rather than at Gurus for guidance. This was not LOVE-BASED, it was greed-based, unfortunately. We can create this new world together, simply, by helping each other and believing in the best....building a world that reflects community and love. There is no longer a need to SUFFER. We need only REMEMBER.by James Possible · 11 months ago

by phil · 11 months ago

Thanks for the warning now that was "harmonic"by James Possible · 11 months ago

by James Possible · 11 months ago

by Tennis Boy · 11 months ago

by Ex JRI Warrior · 11 months ago

healing thoughts and my condolences go out to the victims, now 3 of them. The latest victim Liz was a friend of mine in the past...and she was an amazing person who truly believed in James and his teachings.... She was probably one of the sweetest and most energetic person I knew...such a tragic ending. I know she is in a good place tho....and will be coming back soon in a new vehicle to experience a new life's journey.by Old Vehicle · 11 months ago

I hope her new vehicle runs over your foot.by Witch Hunt · 11 months ago

Not only do I hope we go on a "hunt", I further hope for a "capture".by Is James Human? · 11 months ago

If by human, you mean criminally negligent.by Sarah · 11 months ago

Dan above had the strength to leave in 2005, and he said, "Thank God that others followed me." People, you are sheep following the wrong leaders. Dan, spread the word - more should be following those who leave. So many followers are brainwashed victims. My dear friend died, brainwashed and believing lies.by insider · 11 months ago

James is a charming, wayward Christian, went to darker beliefs. He needs to understand God is calling him back to his Christian beliefs. Only thru Christ can one obtain peace and tranquility in life. James, God wants your heart again.by Ex JRI Warrior · 11 months ago

just for the record... i am one of the people that saw James for who he was and got out before I could be brainwashed any futher... My friend Liz was not so lucky... It is so scary to know that even after this tragic incident and other incidents in the past, people are still standing by James and sticking up for him and signing up for his events and forking out money they don't have!by Cassandra Yorgey · 11 months ago

by Cassandra Yorgey · 11 months ago

Everyone's kind words mean a lot to me, and everyones critical discussions that point to where I can respond and help continue the discussion in new directions are just wonderful. To those that would brand me a hero, I am flattered but that's just silly. I'm merely participating in an effort to spread knowledge and improve the community.by Sundancer01 · 11 months ago

by Anonymous · 11 months ago

Olivia Truthe publishes the corporate email address for contacting James Arthur Ray. Follow the link to get the address: http://www.facebook.com/oliviatruthe (http://www.facebook.com/oliviatruthe)[/list]
by henry · 11 months ago

by Dylan · 11 months ago

rushofwind456@aol.com

by gurugirl · 11 months ago

by badbob · 11 months ago

by Melonie · 11 months ago

Quote from: "Ursus"

Onwards... to some more comments (http://http://www.examiner.com/speculative-fiction-in-philadelphia/breaking-news-inside-accounts-of-james-ray-sweat-lodge-tragedy-and-retreat) left for the above piece, "Breaking news: Inside accounts of James Ray sweat lodge tragedy and retreat (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=28923&start=225#p379196)" (by Cassandra Yorgey; October 16th, 2009; Examiner.com), #s 26-50:

by Mourning. · 11 months ago
Facebook Page for JAR: Blog Commenter:

Danielle Hahn-Koprowski
I was at the Spiritual Warrior (SW) event in 2008 and I know exactly how this tragedy occurred

Since I had participated in more than 25 sweat lodge ceremonies prior to attending SW I had a different perspective than many who were there. I have never been to a lodge where anyone got sick except at SW. Last year, at least 20 people were sick and at least 1 person was dragged out unconscious at the end.

At a normal lodge no one is ever encouraged to stay, especially if they feel unwell in any way. James did not conduct the ceremony in the way that it was intended.... Read More
by Former employee · 11 months ago
A third person has passed away from this tragedy. When are the authorities going to act??

Quote
by Kay · 11 months ago
This is a lesson for all of us who seek truth and wisdom within for the coming times. I agree with Corinne. This is telling us that we are to look within at this time, rather than at Gurus for guidance. This was not LOVE-BASED, it was greed-based, unfortunately. We can create this new world together, simply, by helping each other and believing in the best....building a world that reflects community and love. There is no longer a need to SUFFER. We need only REMEMBER.

People, stop blaming others for your stupidity. Your father does not hold the key, you do. Find it inside.
Quote

by James Possible · 11 months ago
If we are to take to heart what I feel Cassandra is conveying, would it not be equally inappropriate to hold Cassandra as hero?

What are the facts, where does Cassandra speak with HER bias? There is a lot of emotion in her writing, I would not be inclined to call it a subjective piece.

Saying things like "Thank you, thank you, thank you. You are a hero." is in fact the very mentality that leads people to hold others as an authority ultimately giving them undue influence on their lives. Leaving many to feel powerless over their own lives.

Personally, there is a lot to process here as there are many comments being shared that do seem to hit home in some way. What is there to learn from this, what can this experience tell me about me and my past choices with others of influence?

As one commenter offered, indeed the messenger may have made a mistake, still, the message is worth understanding. Read more...[/list]

Bravo Bravo!!!!!!! Please everyone read again. So many want to be sheep and then howl like a wolf.

by phil · 11 months ago
Thanks for the warning now that was "harmonic"
Quote

by James Possible · 11 months ago
Going on a witch hunt, wanting to blame one person for EVERYTHING, using absolutes such as ALL, ALWAYS, etc. speak more about the commenter and fear than the facts.

Speaking as if the intent of another person is known to them again says more about the speaker than than the facts.

Understanding how coercive persuasion works or even that it is something to know when attending such events is quite valuable. As well as understanding how depriving yourself of such things as sleep, food and water can have the unintended outcome of making you more likely to accept what you might not accept otherwise.

Knowing your limits is critical and unfortunately for far to many people their limits are rarely tested. In the book "The Four Agreements" it is called domestication. Knowing that you are influenced and understanding how that influence impacts you and being able to make a choice thereafter is priceless.

It is tragic that the price being paid at this event was someones life. Read m[/list]

Quote
by James Possible · 11 months ago
In the end I would encourage you not to blame, rather to look at your own life and to observe where you are doing the same i.e., giving someone else authority over your life and choices. Even in small ways it comes with to high of a price.

Remember, not all teachers, trainers, coaches, mentors or therapists are created equal. Each will no doubt have an occassion where they are acting with authority and blindly recognizing it is happening and therefore missing how they are in fact creating the outcome for the one seeking their counsel.

I'll leave you with this final thought...

Pay attention, pay attention, pay attention!

Your life is your's to live, no one else can do it for you![/list]
[/color]

by Tennis Boy · 11 months ago
Is James human? Do accidents happen? Do we all have egos? Only if you have a body. Do egos become negligent? Do we all eventually transition (die)? Is this article filled with half truths? YES.
As a former spiritual warrior and journey of power graduate, the cost of the teachings, realizations, spiritual growth, and friendships? PRICELESS! Heal on!
by Ex JRI Warrior · 11 months ago
healing thoughts and my condolences go out to the victims, now 3 of them. The latest victim Liz was a friend of mine in the past...and she was an amazing person who truly believed in James and his teachings.... She was probably one of the sweetest and most energetic person I knew...such a tragic ending. I know she is in a good place tho....and will be coming back soon in a new vehicle to experience a new life's journey.
by Old Vehicle · 11 months ago
I hope her new vehicle runs over your foot.
by Witch Hunt · 11 months ago
Not only do I hope we go on a "hunt", I further hope for a "capture".
by Is James Human? · 11 months ago
If by human, you mean criminally negligent.
by Sarah · 11 months ago
Dan above had the strength to leave in 2005, and he said, "Thank God that others followed me." People, you are sheep following the wrong leaders. Dan, spread the word - more should be following those who leave. So many followers are brainwashed victims. My dear friend died, brainwashed and believing lies.
by insider · 11 months ago
James is a charming, wayward Christian, went to darker beliefs. He needs to understand God is calling him back to his Christian beliefs. Only thru Christ can one obtain peace and tranquility in life. James, God wants your heart again.
by Ex JRI Warrior · 11 months ago
just for the record... i am one of the people that saw James for who he was and got out before I could be brainwashed any futher... My friend Liz was not so lucky... It is so scary to know that even after this tragic incident and other incidents in the past, people are still standing by James and sticking up for him and signing up for his events and forking out money they don't have!
by Cassandra Yorgey · 11 months ago
All my sci-fi peeps feel free to join me...
"I will not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain."

Everyone's kind words mean a lot to me, and everyones critical discussions that point to where I can respond and help continue the discussion in new directions are just wonderful. To those that would brand me a hero, I am flattered but that's just silly. I'm merely participating in an effort to spread knowledge and improve the community.
by Cassandra Yorgey · 11 months ago
As always, lovely discussions continuing. I remind everyone to PLAY NICE WITH EACHOTHER.

I would also like to remind everyone we are NOT going on a witch hunt. Wiki defines a witch hunt as a search for witches or evidence of witchcraft, often involving moral panic, mass hysteria, and lynching. The only relevant word in that entire definition is "moral". Using fear to motivate is James Ray's technique - fear of missing the next lesson, fear of his disapproval, fear of inadequacy.

I WILL NOT ACT IN FEAR. I act with purposeful deliberation to open a discussion about the unethical use of different types of power.

All my sci-fi peeps feel free to join me...
"I will not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain."
by Cassandra Yorgey · 11 months ago
Everyone's kind words mean a lot to me, and everyones critical discussions that point to where I can respond and help continue the discussion in new directions are just wonderful. To those that would brand me a hero, I am flattered but that's just silly. I'm merely participating in an effort to spread knowledge and improve the community.
by Sundancer01 · 11 months ago
Wow, What a wide spectrum.
I walk a beautiful path with the Creator,and never has he asked me for monetery gift's. I sweat and pray regulary and the description's I read are so far off it is heartbreaking. We need to seek true native leader's and offer tabacco in a good way. This is how the teaching's are shared after we as common human being's approach the spiritual side of living. We have several native leaders in this country that are willing to share this path. They do it for the health of our youth and our planet, and our own health . Money can't buy happy
by Anonymous · 11 months ago
Olivia Truthe publishes the corporate email address for contacting James Arthur Ray. Follow the link to get the address:
http://www.facebook.com/oliviatruthe (http://www.facebook.com/oliviatruthe)[/list]
by henry · 11 months ago
Thank you so much for the the blog radio info
So much precious informations from MR Tree.
As a member of the native American church myself
It is clear that this disaster was an abortion
of what a native American ceremony should be conducted.
Native elders had told James Ray that this was wrong
misuse of a very sacred native American ways .According to participants like Mourning ..already in 2008
20 people where sick....and James Ray ...still kept doing the same plastic cover sweat dome ....stupid ...criminal...greedy$$$
Like Mickey mouse in the movie Fantasia...The Sorcerer in the Apprentice ...Mickey mouse created created a disaster.
You do not play with sacred energy that native American
have been teaching from generations to generations.
Combine this with the teaching of James Ray
"To play full on " Trust me I know
May he be stop ASAP
by Dylan · 11 months ago
If anyone who has been involved in the James Ray scene is willing to go on the record - please email me rushofwind456@aol.com

I am a reporter. Thanks.
by gurugirl · 11 months ago
D I S C E R N M E N T

At this time of transition, be very careful about who and what you are following. In fact, if you are following at all, that is the first indication that you are off track. For those of you who are still students of gurus, we recommend discernment.

This is no longer a time of great spiritual teachers. It is now the time of great spirits instead. This shift from master/student to just plain master may cause a temporary unemployment problem in India and elsewhere, but do not be alarmed.

The true masters of light will make the shift with ease and will welcome your upcoming graduation with the same relief that they welcome their much deserved retirement.[/list]
by badbob · 11 months ago
birds of a feather? remember the Secret?
google this:
vimeo exposed national television schirmer 1 of 6

Quote
by Melonie · 11 months ago

I attended this event Sept-07 and left before the Vision Quest. I couldn't believe the brainwashing that was taking place and I wanted no part of it. If you didn't shave your head, it meant you were not giving up your attachments? WHAT? Do you know how ridiculous these women looked when they went back to the real world of family, friends and work! The final straw was when I learned that we had to sleep in the desert for 36 hours with no food and water,

This is a total fabrication and over dramatization of the experience she was going to attend. No one is denied water, food or shelter, you push yourself as far as you can go.
Now paying $20,000.00 for these experiences only goes to her ignorance and down right stupidity. I paid $150.00 and spent 11 days in the desert with limited provisions. (I mean very little)
I understand they are also paying for James Ray educational expertises, well I was told a long time ago, teachers are everywhere.

if this was told to me in advance I could have saved myself a lot of money. There was no way I would go without water for 36 hrs! I left, and never attended another event, even though I bought the $20,000 package and still had 2 events to attend, of which he offers NO REFUNDS. I knew James was a fraud and a complete ego-maniac at that time and have warned many others over the last 2 years.
My sincerest condolences to the families of the three deceased people.[/list]

Copyright © Clarity Digital Group LLC d/b/a Examiner.com.

Quote from: "DannyB II"

Understanding how coercive persuasion works or even that it is something to know when attending such events is quite valuable.

Maybe, but Ray sure didn't inform his clients of this now, did he?

Quote

As well as understanding how depriving yourself of such things as sleep, food and water can have the unintended outcome of making you more likely to accept what you might not accept otherwise.

Yeah, it's called brainwashing.

Quote

Knowing your limits is critical and unfortunately for far to many people their limits are rarely tested. In the book "The Four Agreements" it is called domestication. Knowing that you are influenced and understanding how that influence impacts you and being able to make a choice thereafter is priceless.

But when you sign yourself over to some wannabe guru who tells you to follow and trust him, no matter what then it's the responsibility of the supposed guru to keep you safe during your "treatment". This guy couldn't have cared less about the safety of the people he was supposed to be helping.

Quote

This is a total fabrication and over dramatization of the experience she was going to attend. No one is denied water, food or shelter, you push yourself as far as you can go.
Now paying $20,000.00 for these experiences only goes to her ignorance and down right stupidity. I paid $150.00 and spent 11 days in the desert with limited provisions. (I mean very little)
I understand they are also paying for James Ray educational expertises, well I was told a long time ago, teachers are everywhere.

You feel qualified to tell some woman whom you've never met that her experience is a "total fabrication", yet you get upset when people dare question your very strange worldview. Interesting.

Quote from: "Anne Bonney"

Quote from: "DannyB II"
Understanding how coercive persuasion works or even that it is something to know when attending such events is quite valuable.

Maybe, but Ray sure didn't inform his clients of this now, did he?

It does not make any difference if he told them or not, (many LGAT's are confidential until you do them)if you really want to get down to it, we are adults. Just the fact people read or studied to find out about Ray go to their awareness of at least some info on what they were going to be doing.

Quote
As well as understanding how depriving yourself of such things as sleep, food and water can have the unintended outcome of making you more likely to accept what you might not accept otherwise.

Yeah, it's called brainwashing.

Anne, it is critical that we understand that the attendees are engaged and willingly accept as part of the exercise the lack of essentials. This feeling of desperation is part of the experience. It is very important that folks understand their bodies.
It is not for everyone. I did a Vision Quest in the Desert of California and on Bali. Both were extremely challenging.

Quote
Knowing your limits is critical and unfortunately for far to many people their limits are rarely tested. In the book "The Four Agreements" it is called domestication. Knowing that you are influenced and understanding how that influence impacts you and being able to make a choice thereafter is priceless.

But when you sign yourself over to some wannabe guru who tells you to follow and trust him, no matter what then it's the responsibility of the supposed guru to keep you safe during your "treatment". This guy couldn't have cared less about the safety of the people he was supposed to be helping.

No No No, that is not how it is set up or how it works, nobody is encouraged to sign themselves over to anybody, it is the experience or exercise that your signing up for. Only you know how far your body can go.
Anne, I have to disagree with you, it is not the guides job to make sure you are safe only that the experience/exercise is relatively safe for all. My job as a participant is to monitor my well being and safety.

Quote
This is a total fabrication and over dramatization of the experience she was going to attend. No one is denied water, food or shelter, you push yourself as far as you can go.
Now paying $20,000.00 for these experiences only goes to her ignorance and down right stupidity. I paid $150.00 and spent 11 days in the desert with limited provisions. (I mean very little)
I understand they are also paying for James Ray educational expertises, well I was told a long time ago, teachers are everywhere.

You feel qualified to tell some woman whom you've never met that her experience is a "total fabrication", yet you get upset when people dare question your very strange worldview. Interesting.

I do to a certain degree because I have done (2) Vision Quests and Ray does his very similar. I never even paid close to $20,000.00 for both and for one I went to Bali.

Quote from: "DannyB II"

[
It does not make any difference if he told them or not, (many LGAT's are confidential until you do them)if you really want to get down to it, we are adults. Just the fact people read or studied to find out about Ray go to their awareness of at least some info on what they were going to be doing.

Informed consent. Especially if there is any form of "treatment" or "counseling" or "therapy" involved.

Quote

Anne, it is critical that we understand that the attendees are engaged and willingly accept as part of the exercise the lack of essentials. This feeling of desperation is part of the experience. It is very important that folks understand their bodies.
It is not for everyone. I did a Vision Quest in the Desert of California and on Bali. Both were extremely challenging.

Again, informed consent. They deserve to know what they're getting themselves into.

Quote

No No No, that is not how it is set up or how it works, nobody is encouraged to sign themselves over to anybody, it is the experience or exercise that your signing up for. Only you know how far your body can go.
Anne, I have to disagree with you, it is not the guides job to make sure you are safe only that the experience/exercise is relatively safe for all. My job as a participant is to monitor my well being and safety.

Safely....there's a key word. and the hell it isn't the organization's responsibility to make sure the participants have informed consent, and I believe, from what the D.A./S.A's office has determined so far, that I'm right. We'll see what the court decision is.

Quote

I do to a certain degree because I have done (2) Vision Quests and Ray does his very similar. I never even paid close to $20,000.00 for both and for one I went to Bali.

So, I'll ask again....you feel qualified to completely dismiss this woman's view, her experience, as a "total fabrication"? People pay all kinds of money to all kinds of snakeoil salesmen to give them "the answer" to life. The sad, yet wonderful truth is, we all have to figure it out for ourselves.

Quote from: "Anne Bonney"

Quote from: "DannyB II"
[
It does not make any difference if he told them or not, (many LGAT's are confidential until you do them)if you really want to get down to it, we are adults. Just the fact people read or studied to find out about Ray go to their awareness of at least some info on what they were going to be doing.

Informed consent. Especially if there is any form of "treatment" or "counseling" or "therapy" involved.

No they don't.

Quote
Anne, it is critical that we understand that the attendees are engaged and willingly accept as part of the exercise the lack of essentials. This feeling of desperation is part of the experience. It is very important that folks understand their bodies.
It is not for everyone. I did a Vision Quest in the Desert of California and on Bali. Both were extremely challenging.

Again, informed consent. They deserve to know what they're getting themselves into.

Once again not to be argumentive. They do not have to.

Quote
No No No, that is not how it is set up or how it works, nobody is encouraged to sign themselves over to anybody, it is the experience or exercise that your signing up for. Only you know how far your body can go.
Anne, I have to disagree with you, it is not the guides job to make sure you are safe only that the experience/exercise is relatively safe for all. My job as a participant is to monitor my well being and safety.

Safely....there's a key word. and the hell it isn't the organization's responsibility to make sure the participants have informed consent, and I believe, from what the D.A./S.A's office has determined so far, that I'm right. We'll see what the court decision is.

Whatever.....what's the point, it is all about you. I am sure James Ray will be held accountable for negligence, folks died.
Whether the workshops will have informed consent on the level you want it , I doubt it will ever work out that way.
Yes Anne, more people will die pushing themselves, part of life.

Quote
I do to a certain degree because I have done (2) Vision Quests and Ray does his very similar. I never even paid close to $20,000.00 for both and for one I went to Bali.

So, I'll ask again....you feel qualified to completely dismiss this woman's view, her experience, as a "total fabrication"? People pay all kinds of money to all kinds of snakeoil salesmen to give them "the answer" to life. The sad, yet wonderful truth is, we all have to figure it out for ourselves.

Women and men views I have dismissed as completely fabricated nonsense, yes absolutely.
Problem, the only snakes are those in the desert.

Quote from: "DannyB II"

It does not make any difference if he told them or not, (many LGAT's are confidential until you do them)if you really want to get down to it, we are adults. Just the fact people read or studied to find out about Ray go to their awareness of at least some info on what they were going to be doing.

Quote from: "Anne Bonney"

Informed consent. Especially if there is any form of "treatment" or "counseling" or "therapy" involved.

Quote from: "DannyB II"

No they don't.

Wait....you're seriously saying that anyone that enters into this kind of "treatment" or "counseling" or "therapy" is NOT entitled to informed consent??? Really?

Quote

Once again not to be argumentive. They do not have to.

You don't believe they should be informed of what they're getting into? Seriously?

Quote from: "Anne Bonney"

Safely....there's a key word. and the hell it isn't the organization's responsibility to make sure the participants have informed consent, and I believe, from what the D.A./S.A's office has determined so far, that I'm right. We'll see what the court decision is.

Quote from: "DannyB II"

Whatever.....

That's your response to the fact that the D.A./S.A. disagrees and had filed charges?

Quote

what's the point, it is all about you.

Huh?

Quote

I am sure James Ray will be held accountable for negligence, folks died.

Yeah, let's hope so.

Quote

Whether the workshops will have informed consent on the level you want it , I doubt it will ever work out that way.
Yes Anne, more people will die pushing themselves, part of life.

I don't have a problem with people dying while pushing themselves to their limits. I do, however, believe...as do the courts.....that they have the right to informed consent to what they're getting into. It's such a basic part of the standard of care that I can't believe you'd advocate for anything less.

Quote

Women and men views I have dismissed as completely fabricated nonsense, yes absolutely.
Problem, the only snakes are those in the desert.

I'm sorry.....what?

Quote from: "Anne Bonney"

Quote from: "DannyB II"
It does not make any difference if he told them or not, (many LGAT's are confidential until you do them)if you really want to get down to it, we are adults. Just the fact people read or studied to find out about Ray go to their awareness of at least some info on what they were going to be doing.

Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Informed consent. Especially if there is any form of "treatment" or "counseling" or "therapy" involved.

Quote from: "DannyB II"
No they don't.

Wait....you're seriously saying that anyone that enters into this kind of "treatment" or "counseling" or "therapy" is NOT entitled to informed consent??? Really?

This is not treatment, counseling or therapy. It is a guided experiential workshop. I don't presume any Psychiatrists, Doctors or educated counselors will be there or have to be there. I am not demanding informed consent because it is not needed.

Quote

Once again not to be argumentive. They do not have to.

You don't believe they should be informed of what they're getting into? Seriously?

Of course I do, to a certain degree. Anne in all the workshops, sweats and challenges I've done, there was a certain amount of responsibility placed on me (I placed it there) to read and educate myself. I informed myself, then heard from the leaders of the workshop what they wanted from me.
I have walked away from 3 workshops in my time due to either being lame or they were irresponsible in what they were doing.

Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Safely....there's a key word. and the hell it isn't the organization's responsibility to make sure the participants have informed consent, and I believe, from what the D.A./S.A's office has determined so far, that I'm right. We'll see what the court decision is.

Quote from: "DannyB II"
Whatever.....

That's your response to the fact that the D.A./S.A. disagrees and had filed charges?

They are doing there JOB. No problem.

Quote
what's the point, it is all about you.

Huh?

Quote
I am sure James Ray will be held accountable for negligence, folks died.

Yeah, let's hope so.

Quote
Whether the workshops will have informed consent on the level you want it , I doubt it will ever work out that way.
Yes Anne, more people will die pushing themselves, part of life.

I don't have a problem with people dying while pushing themselves to their limits. I do, however, believe...as do the courts.....that they have the right to informed consent to what they're getting into. It's such a basic part of the standard of care that I can't believe you'd advocate for anything less.

Anne, they were informed.

Quote
Women and men views I have dismissed as completely fabricated nonsense, yes absolutely.
Problem, the only snakes are those in the desert.

I'm sorry.....what?

Quote from: "DannyB II"

This is not treatment, counseling or therapy. It is a guided experiential workshop. I don't presume any Psychiatrists, Doctors or educated counselors will be there or have to be there. I am not demanding informed consent because it is not needed.

Yup....and like I said in another thread.....any ole jackass can "lead" on of these.

Quote

Of course I do, to a certain degree. Anne in all the workshops, sweats and challenges I've done, there was a certain amount of responsibility placed on me (I placed it there) to read and educate myself. I informed myself, then heard from the leaders of the workshop what they wanted from me.
I have walked away from 3 workshops in my time due to either being lame or they were irresponsible in what they were doing.

Safety is the key for me. These people put their trust in this guy and he not only let them down, he's downright proud of it and really doesn't seem to give a goddamn. Which is why I've asked if the vileness you spew out here is a result of your "New Warrior Training", which you've never answered. That's an honest question too, given what I've read in regards to how this guy views women.

Quote

Anne, they were informed.

Apparently not well enough given that part of the plan is that they don't know what they're to expect.

Hey, I don't know what else to tell you. This conversation is going in circles. So at this point I will just agree to disagree with you. Good nite.

Comments (http://http://www.examiner.com/speculative-fiction-in-philadelphia/breaking-news-inside-accounts-of-james-ray-sweat-lodge-tragedy-and-retreat) left for the above piece, "Breaking news: Inside accounts of James Ray sweat lodge tragedy and retreat (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=28923&start=225#p379196)" (by Cassandra Yorgey; October 16th, 2009; Examiner.com), #s 51-75:

by sedona · 11 months ago

by CC · 11 months ago

Continued from above: The leader not allowing and/or discouraging people from exiting the lodge (and cooling down) between rounds, encouraging participants to IGNORE THEIR BODIES WARNINGS, a lodge constructed with plastic as a covering that did not ?breathe?, too many Rounds (6 instead of 4) leading to excessive over-heating, the possible burning of substances (incense) inappropriate inside a sweat lodge (traditionally only sweet grass, sage and/or cedar are placed on the hot rocks).by CC · 11 months ago

The news media has focused on the Sweat Lodge as the primary reason for this tragedy, but there are many contributing factors to consider: sleep deprivation, 36 hours of no water or food, a night on a cold desert with no shelter and insufficient clothing, breaking the fast and EATING before a sweat lodge (not good! usually an empty or near-empty stomach is the norm), over-crowded conditions in a lodge of the wrong shape for adequate ventilation and participants sitting in the area farthest from the door (which was proportionally too small for the over-sized lodge) having little or no ventilation when the door was opened between Rounds (leading to depletion of available oxygen, compounded by the creation of carbon dioxide by the breath of 60+ people), (continued below)by amstar · 11 months ago

Having assisted a Native American Elder in putting people through fasts for a number of years (I am a veteran of 8 four-day fasts myself), I can tell you that Ray's participants were not prepared properly for such an undertaking. The Elder would require that people who wished to fast had to undergo a number of teachings so they could be clear on the reasons for their fast and be taught how to deal with the physical, emotional and spiritual challenges they would face. He allowed people to fast with tents and sleeping bags (but no food or water) and stayed at the fasting ground to offer counseling and make sure everyone was okay. He believed that most people nowadays could not survive the traditional way of fasting (basically you and a blanket) and did not expect it. When the fast was over, he would have us eat something and throw it up to clean the "poisons" out of our stomachs. We would not eat until after our final sweat lodge; he would have us drink water and medicine tea only.by Instant Karma · 11 months ago

by 'Journey of Power' Participant · 11 months ago

I've attended all of James Rays other events, with the exception of this one in Sedona. What happened there was always held secret by past attendees and it was held up as the most transformative experience, hence the high price tag. This is an incredibly difficult situation. JR's teachings are top notch. I've used them to transform my life and continued to study based on his recommended readings, branching off to more and more and I've realized the great works he's used as source for his teachings. I agree with someone else who said not to confuse the teachings with the teacher. Having said that, he is VERY charismatic and I noticed over the course of two years of attending his events that his ego is massive. It was hard to marry that with the sincerity he projected while speaking. I appreciated his hard line approach to play full-on, to push yourself. But it took alot not to cave to the peer pressure at his events and to remember to do MY best. I'm not pretending to be (continued)by 'Journey of Power' Participant · 11 months ago

better than anyone else - who knows what I would have done if there. I like to think my strong-willed nature would have won out. The problem here is the tactics used to manipulate people. I think JR has used them to help alot of people in the past and it finally came around to bite him in the you know what. It's heartbreaking that people had to die to signal that he needs to check his ego. I don't think his people are in a cult (I still count myself among them - I have made many friends I still keep in contact with and I still use and would recommend his materials) and I fear that this will turn people off to the true essence of healthy spiritual yearning for more. My hope is that people will realize it's an individual journey and shouldn't be twisted to fit into exercises where everyone is pressured to perform the same - kinda contradictory, huh? I neither wish JR harm nor blessings, whatever consequences he faces will be what he brought on himself.by Sage · 11 months ago

by Orchid · 11 months ago

by Hurt by James Ray · 11 months ago

by justababe · 11 months ago

by Jane · 11 months ago

Why did it take me so long to find this site? I wanted to know what really happened. Thank you! Why isn't this on FOX or Larry King? This is a real story people need to hear about! This is not just an accident! Please get this out there!by ACE · 11 months ago

Hurt by James Ray?, the Horton Plaza Mall exercise is most likely the one where JR dresses everyone up in ripped up and tattered clothes with dirt and gunk smeared on their faces and in there hair to pose as homeless people on the streets of SD for a couple of hours. People are asked to play full on as if they were homeless; meaning some asked for food and money while other did not. Others were there but at the CAW I was at in 2004 we were told to avoid other participants. It was suppose to be an individual challenge. After the fact as some of us talked about our experience amongst ourselves it was reveled that some people faced dangerous situations. That is why when I first read about this I wondered if she had been harmed by someone she encountered during her time on the streets. My wife had a rather large man pursuing her to go home with him if he was more aggressive who know what would have happen and I was threatened because I was in another homeless person?s turf.by ACE · 11 months ago

Great point Jane and one I have wondered myself. If you Google this story you see quite a few articles but not many from the ?main stream? media outlets. They are too concerned over the hoax balloon story to focus on real news. Its up to us to let them know they need to focus energy on this story. Please let them hear your voice to get this story the recognition it deserves.by Joan · 11 months ago

I was with you up until you lumped Landmark Education in with the Jonestown tragedy in your summation paragraph. Ridiculous association, which now makes me question the entire article. Back in the 70's in Landmark's infant stages, then called the EST program, yes, there were some questionable psychological methods used (limited bathroom breaks), but the Landmark Education of today is NOT that AT ALL. While, yes, there is a captive audience of those seeking transformation, it is inspirational and effective, NOT at ALL harmful, with choices to leave at any time. The only thing that ever hurt was my backside from sitting so long in a conference chair. And, everyone was given the option to bring their own chair, or pillows, whatever they wanted for their comfort. Personal WELL-BEING was stressed, and being responsible for helping fellow man. In fact our family was strengthened greatly with what we learned from the two years we attended a variety of Landmark Education forum and seminars.by Cassandra Yorgey · 11 months ago

Joan: James Ray is using a self-created mixed modality that draws on many different techniques. I am NOT relating Landmark Education to Jonestown, I am merely citing subjects I believe have contributed to James Ray's technique. I continue to maintain that it is not the techniques that are the problem, it is the way in which they are being used.by brainwashed · 11 months ago

by brainwashed · 11 months ago

You write every woman should shave her head, it's very liberating- until they go home from a brainwashed seminar and face the world. WHAT IS IT, liberating, or brainwashing? And is the ONLY reason to shave your head because it's liberating? And that makes it MUCH easier to face the world, "if you're liberated versus brainwashed!" And since you're so liberated, did you offer support to the traumatized victims of the event. Did you tell them, "I did it!" And here's what happened to me as a result of it.... no, you just wrote it on paper as if they did it and now they MUST believe they are following a cult leader.by brainwashed · 11 months ago

You've done vision quests- but with water. Are the new movie stars on survivor drinking a gallon of water on national television a day? What about their out houses? OMG, and if they have to pee while standing on one leg for hours to win a million bucks, we definitely should take a commercial and NOT let America see how MEAN we really are for NOT letting them pee. Cause GOSH that hurts, but not enough for a $1,000,000.00.by brainwashed · 11 months ago

Ever watch Biggest Loser? Jillian YELLS, I MEAN YELLLLLSSSS at the losers. She YELLS, "You're MORE, DON'T GIVE UP!" I've even heard the losers say back, "I can't breathe." CAMERA 1 NOW SWITCHED TO CAMERA 2- wait is that person going to have a heart attack? She's making millions with her loser promises. But, since people are only paying $10.00 for a home video, and $60.00 a month for cable, she's a good person. People get hurt on that show all the time, never mind the pain people feel at home with her videos. OK, so some are medically supervised, however, her attitude is similar of that of James- She HELPS people OVERCOME-- but pushing, yelling, and making the losers feel stupid for giving up- I mean seriously, the losers talk about it on television, "I don't want to upset my trainer!" I KNEW the LOSERS were brainwashed.by brainwashed · 11 months ago

by Cassandra Yorgey · 11 months ago

by Ex JRI Warrior · 11 months ago

James Ray's current mission in life is to make as much money as he can. His EGO has gotten SO out of control....I think he has lived through some amazing things and he has great stories and is a great motivator....but his EGO and his love of power has taken over! His teachings for the most part are good teachings....but when the teacher is exposed as a hypocrite and doesn't care about anyone but himself....well that's just something i can't continue to be a part of....by Tonya · 11 months ago

by Joanne · 11 months ago

you....jbaskets@comcast.net

Comments (http://http://www.examiner.com/speculative-fiction-in-philadelphia/breaking-news-inside-accounts-of-james-ray-sweat-lodge-tragedy-and-retreat) left for the above piece, "Breaking news: Inside accounts of James Ray sweat lodge tragedy and retreat (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=28923&start=225#p379196)" (by Cassandra Yorgey; October 16th, 2009; Examiner.com), #s 76-91:

by JRweekend · 11 months ago

It's Terrible what happened.His behavior seems bizarre.I went to the JR warrior event in 2006. Some highlights I recall are james bragging about selling a program that didn't exist yet and how he made 40k in a day. Lots of pressure to "raise our consciousness" by attending the future events. Of course- the only way to do it was by going. Volunteer staff encouraging the use of your credit card. james announcing the percentage of signups for the "quantum leap" live from the stage. Dorky pictures of himself as a kid with buck teeth and big glasses. I guess the implication is that if you do what he says you can be like him. james also liked people to know about his three homes in Hawaii, Vegas, and CA. All places where there are events BTW.. I think james should stop helping others and get help himself.by Hippo · 11 months ago

by Steve · 11 months ago

by Stacy Goldring · 11 months ago

Most thoughtful and informative conversation I've heard around this issue. Thank-youby Kaleah · 11 months ago

http://www.narcissismfree.com (http://www.narcissismfree.com)[/list]
by Mel · 11 months ago

hope there is a full investigation into this incident. Clearly, there should be stiff consequences for the leader(s) and their role in this tragedy. My thoughts and prayers go out to the innocent victims. Great job, Cassandra!by Ex JRI Warrior · 11 months ago

from the sounds of it, MN Senator Klobuchar is calling for a federal investigation, there is a local investigation going on in AZ and well as multiple lawsuits being filed and I just also heard that Green Valley Ranch Resort just cancelled JRI's block of rooms for the upcoming Quantum Leap event next month.... it's all adding up, we will see what happens.by reader · 11 months ago

Thank you for looking at this issue from a psychological perspective - not enough people are doing that. I highly recommend anyone interested in spiritual teachings and teachers to read The Guru Papers: Masks of Authoritarian Power by Kramer and Alstad - it doesn't reject spiritual pursuits at all, it helps to understand how to approach them critically (besides being a brilliant, highly literate and fascinating read).by dataohmu man · 11 months ago

by t00lz · 11 months ago

by wade crowe · 11 months ago

The native tribal members will now keep an eye on James Arthur Ray and his followers. Expect us to push and fight to keep them from exploiting our traditions. We will fight until the end.by trishmon · 10 months ago

by tahoe geminii · 10 months ago

Brainwashed-obviously a mindless JAR sheep cruising the internet on damage control-I am so sick of seeing the blog entries made by the James Ray robots-you try to discredit the journalist and make some big deal over something someone said you find offensive-you actually are trying to still get people to pay to see this murderer!"He won't hurt you" I think the dead would dispute this statement-IF they could-ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS AND THE ONLY BACK J RAY HAS IS HIS OWN-You want proof-why has he not refunded the dead's money? or why did he charge Collen Conway for Spiritual Warrior when she was pronounced dead at one of his seminars in SD a month earlier. Dead for a month and still charged for the seminar she died at and for Spiritual Warrior.COME ON-how much of a sheep do you want to be-TRISHMON you aren't fooling anyone either-putting down the writer don't pay any attention to the fact that people died-let's target the writer.by tahoe geminii · 10 months ago

I guess I haven't finished with TRISHMON yet--TRISHMON you quit watching the news because your are a mindless idiot who let's someone that is good looking and charismatic TELL YOU what you should think-Please don't try to pass off your damage control for James Ray as a unbiased comment from someone not in your little cult--BEWARE OF THE KOOLAID-hope you think your soooo smart falling for the oldest scam in the book--The only agenda here is from you--and for the record the difference is that the writer of this article is saving lives not ripping the innocent off and then leaving them for dead. Save your negativity insults for some one who sees the Emperor's New Clothes-at least some of us still have the brains to say-"Hey why is the Emperor naked?" Always the last defense of the LOA and Positive Thinking SCAMS is if you don't believe this malarkey-your just a negative person. BAAAA BAAAA TRISHMON-be careful now cause you could be J Ray's next victim-only if you pay up first thoughby sedona resident · 10 months ago

James Ray usually goes to a popular coffee chain & check his email on their free wi-fi while the rest are on the vision quest.by friend of deceased · 10 months ago

Quote from: "Ursus"

Comments (http://http://www.examiner.com/speculative-fiction-in-philadelphia/breaking-news-inside-accounts-of-james-ray-sweat-lodge-tragedy-and-retreat) left for the above piece, "Breaking news: Inside accounts of James Ray sweat lodge tragedy and retreat (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=28923&start=225#p379196)" (by Cassandra Yorgey; October 16th, 2009; Examiner.com), #s 76-91:

by JRweekend · 11 months ago
It's Terrible what happened.His behavior seems bizarre.I went to the JR warrior event in 2006. Some highlights I recall are james bragging about selling a program that didn't exist yet and how he made 40k in a day. Lots of pressure to "raise our consciousness" by attending the future events. Of course- the only way to do it was by going. Volunteer staff encouraging the use of your credit card. james announcing the percentage of signups for the "quantum leap" live from the stage. Dorky pictures of himself as a kid with buck teeth and big glasses. I guess the implication is that if you do what he says you can be like him. james also liked people to know about his three homes in Hawaii, Vegas, and CA. All places where there are events BTW.. I think james should stop helping others and get help himself.

All this bullshit is just one more of the line of many scams that prey on people who are searching the "the answer" to life, and they know it. The wannabe gurus of this industry know very well what they're doing and exactly how much money people are willing for fork because they're desperate for someone, ANYone to follow. This isn't about helping people. It's about hijacking a cultural tradition from the Native Americans and pretending that they're doing anything near that all in search of the almighty dollar.

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by Kaleah · 11 months ago
Great Article and comments! I think we are dealing with "Spiritual Narcissism." There is a lot of it out there and I hope this tragedy will bring it more to light. I deal with Narcissistic abuse every day and it was easy to spot the narcissism in this man's behavior. My greatest concern is that the abuse survivors recognize and deal with the trauma they have faced. My second concern is that James Ray be accountable for leading so many people into a deadly dangerous situation. What I would have liked to hear from him is: "I was wrong! I was inexperienced and pushed too hard. I was not compassionate to the needs of the people in the lodge! It was my fault! I should have stopped the lodge when people were fainting and getting sick!" But narcissistic people don't admit fault or take responsibility. Whoever said we shouldn't focus on the leader, I have to question that. Why not? Lets not turn a blind eye here! The man needs to be accountable!

That's an excellent way of putting it! Spiritual Narcissism. These wannabe gurus seem to truly need followers. They can't live without the adoration of the sheep. It's like life giving air to them. It's absolutely true with Newton. He still can't stop himself from trying to start some kind of a program.....even in his own house. Thankfully, we knocked that one out of the park! :deal: :twofinger:

These fucking "spiritual warriors" make me ill.

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by trishmon · 10 months ago
What exactly about this article makes it so fabulous? As far I'm concerned this is nothing but a sensationalized, inflamatory, wanna be professional journalism piece of crap.

This kind of news reporting is exactly why I choose to not watch the News anymore. The account of events are completely biased and the writer out right admits it. It's one thing you express your views, opinions and feelings on the situation but PLEASE don't try to pass it off as journalism.

Cassandra, it seems you had a very negative experience with JRI and you are using this unfortunate and horrible situation as an excuse to vent. Me thinks thou protesth too much...you claim James was only concerned about himself - I don't see much difference in your pathetic rant.

I care about the families who experienced such a devastating lose but please don't use their pain as an opportunity to promote your own agenda.

Sound familiar to any of us??

Quote

by tahoe geminii · 10 months ago
Brainwashed-obviously a mindless JAR sheep cruising the internet on damage control-I am so sick of seeing the blog entries made by the James Ray robots-you try to discredit the journalist and make some big deal over something someone said you find offensive-you actually are trying to still get people to pay to see this murderer!"He won't hurt you" I think the dead would dispute this statement-IF they could-ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS AND THE ONLY BACK J RAY HAS IS HIS OWN-You want proof-why has he not refunded the dead's money? or why did he charge Collen Conway for Spiritual Warrior when she was pronounced dead at one of his seminars in SD a month earlier. Dead for a month and still charged for the seminar she died at and for Spiritual Warrior.COME ON-how much of a sheep do you want to be-TRISHMON you aren't fooling anyone either-putting down the writer don't pay any attention to the fact that people died-let's target the writer.
by tahoe geminii · 10 months ago

I guess I haven't finished with TRISHMON yet--TRISHMON you quit watching the news because your are a mindless idiot who let's someone that is good looking and charismatic TELL YOU what you should think-Please don't try to pass off your damage control for James Ray as a unbiased comment from someone not in your little cult--BEWARE OF THE KOOLAID-hope you think your soooo smart falling for the oldest scam in the book--The only agenda here is from you--and for the record the difference is that the writer of this article is saving lives not ripping the innocent off and then leaving them for dead. Save your negativity insults for some one who sees the Emperor's New Clothes-at least some of us still have the brains to say-"Hey why is the Emperor naked?" Always the last defense of the LOA and Positive Thinking SCAMS is if you don't believe this malarkey-your just a negative person. BAAAA BAAAA TRISHMON-be careful now cause you could be J Ray's next victim-only if you pay up first though[/list][/list]

:notworthy: :notworthy:

This is why this crap holds an interest for me. It's got so much in common with programs.

From the above article, "Breaking news: Inside accounts of James Ray sweat lodge tragedy and retreat (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=28923&start=225#p379196)":

Quote from: "Cassandra Yorgey"

For more info: I am not the only teen advocate speaking out. Shawna Bowen (http://http://teenandparentsupport.com/) is a licensed therapist who focuses on teens with substance abuse problems. I am not familiar with her body of work but the things she reveals in this interview seem to be supporting my own research. Click here (http://http://verdevalleyblog.com/2009/10/shawna-bowen-interviews-james-ray-sweat-lodge/) to see her on CBS.

Here's that piece. You'll need to click on the link (below) to watch the 3:51 CBS news clip entitled "Sweat Lodge Horror - Eyewitness Recalls Arizona Tragedy."

There are also two more in-depth Blog Talk Radio Interviews: "The James Ray Incident: Let's Talk About..." and "The James Ray Incident: A Discussion about..." The latter one is also available on the original link (http://http://www.examiner.com/speculative-fiction-in-philadelphia/breaking-news-inside-accounts-of-james-ray-sweat-lodge-tragedy-and-retreat) of the above quoted Cassandra Yorgey piece.

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Verde Valley Blog and Independent News Source
Shawna Bowen Interviews About James Ray Sweat Lodge (http://http://verdevalleyblog.com/2009/10/shawna-bowen-interviews-james-ray-sweat-lodge/)
by Jason Shultz on October 16, 2009

(http://http://teenandparentsupport.com/images/Shawna-Bowen-2.jpg)
Shawna Bowen, Motivational Speaker and Therapist

Shawna Bowen interviews with Harry Smith of the CBS Early Show about what she saw at the James Ray Sweat Lodge in Sedona, Arizona where two people died. Shawna Bowen is a Therapist, Author, and Motivational Speaker. You can find out more about her at FromRockStarToTherapist.com (http://http://fromrockstartotherapist.com/).

# #

Spiritual Narcissism...nifty little catch phrase word. Very fad coming from seasoned work shop junkies covering the circuit. One thing you must understand 90% of these people posting negative comments will be in another workshop within the year. They are addicted to them, they bring structure and organization to there lives. They want James Ray and others to be where they are. Cause and effect, leaders and followers and life goes on.
Yes Anne these people want their Gurus and when one fails and is cast aside they find another to replace them and life goes on.

CBS News · Crimesider
October 16, 2009 9:33 AM

Self-Help Guru James Arthur Ray in Crosshairs of Angel Valley Sweat Lodge Homicide Investigation (http://http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-5233225-504083.html)
Posted by Edecio Martinez

(http://http://wwwimage.cbsnews.com/images/2009/10/14/image5383828x.jpg)
James Arthur Ray. (JamesRay.com)

PRESCOTT, Arizona (CBS/AP) The deaths of two people during the Angel Valley Retreat sweat lodge ceremony led by self-help guru James Arthur Ray are now being investigated as homicides, authorities said. And the "Spiritual Warrior" who earned around half-a-million dollars from the deadly retreat is in the crosshairs.

Yavapai County Sheriff Steve Waugh said the deaths last week of Kirby Brown, 38, and James Shore, 40, were not accidental.

"A combination of circumstances led to the deaths," Waugh said Thursday. "Whether or not we can prove a criminal case, that has yet to be determined."

Waugh said investigators are looking at the way the sweat lodge was built, the fact that people had fallen ill at previous sweat ceremonies led by Ray, and questionable medical care on site. Authorities have said a nurse hired by Ray was directing rescue efforts including CPR when emergency crews arrived.

Ray is the primary focus of the probe but others also are being investigated, the sheriff said.

Ray's spokesman, Howard Bragman, said the sheriff's use of "homicide" to characterize the investigation was irresponsible and a rush to judgment.

"I find it very interesting the police are trying to escalate the case in the media, and frankly, I think the escalation should be in getting the facts," he said. "We have one goal and that is to find out what happened so that it never happens again."

Ray led more than 50 people into a makeshift sweat lodge at a rented retreat outside Sedona on Oct. 8. After about two hours, Brown and Shore were pulled out. Nineteen other people were taken to hospitals, and one remains in critical condition.

"He's a motivational speaker who tried his hand at very dangerous physical things, and it was reckless," Brown's cousin and family spokesman Tom McFeeley said of the sheriff's announcement. "It doesn't surprise us in the least."

Sheriff's Lt. David Rhodes said investigators have spoken to most of the sweat lodge participants, but they're not sure how much of what they're hearing is accurate. It was pitch black inside the structure and possible that no one noticed that Shore and Brown were passed out, authorities said.

"You have two people who died in the presence of 50 other people in an environment in which no one seems to understand what happened," Rhodes said.

Ray declined to be interviewed by the sheriff's office on the night of the incident and has not spoken with Arizona authorities. He hired his own investigative team to determine what went wrong, and Bragman said that team and Ray's attorney are cooperating with the sheriff's investigators.

A search warrant was served Wednesday at Ray's Carlsbad, California-based company, James Ray International. Deputies were looking for medical records of those attending the Sedona retreat, documents on the sweat lodge's construction and use, and any warnings of health risks, Waugh said.

The motivational speaker, author and self-help guru offers clients the promise of spiritual and financial wealth in his programs. The five-day "Spiritual Warrior" course during which the deaths occurred had about 50 participants who paid more than $9,000 each.

Do the math. Ray raked in around half a million dollars. It's not clear if he has returned any of the money.

The culmination of the retreat was the sweat lodge ceremony. Records obtained by The Associated Press on Tuesday showed local fire officials responded to the same retreat for a person who fell unconscious during a Ray-led sweat ceremony in 2005.

Copyright ©2010 CBS Interactive Inc.

Quote from: "Ursus"

(http://http://wwwimage.cbsnews.com/images/2009/10/14/image5383828x.jpg)
James Arthur Ray. (JamesRay.com)

I like this one better.

(http://http://www.anorak.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/jamesraymugshot.jpg)

Ursus, if below has already been posted, please let me know and I'll delete it. Thx!

Edited: Deleted for duplication.

Quote from: "Anne Bonney"

I like this one better.

Ah, but there you're jumping a lil ahead in the story! ;)

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Comments (http://http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-5233225-504083.html) left for the above article, "Self-Help Guru James Arthur Ray in Crosshairs of Angel Valley Sweat Lodge Homicide Investigation (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=28923&p=384796#p384762)" (by Edecio Martinez; October 16, 2009; CBS News Crimesider):

by Hosheen · October 16, 2009 10:40 AM EDT

Considering that James A. Ray is, and always has been, a con man and a phony, it's time someone threw the BS flag on this faker and brought him to account for his actions. He has defrauded so many and so irresponsibly, that he should spend the rest of his life in prison.

by docpeter1953 · October 16, 2009 12:44 PM EDT

Maybe so, but for murder or fraud? Two entirely different accusations. Is he a killer like Manson, or a fraud like Made-off?[/list]
by quapawsix · October 16, 2009 1:06 PM EDT

Self help??? How is it self help when you have to pay someone for what the Creator gave each and everyone of us. Why is it easier to believe someone else and not believe in yourself?by skeetchamp · October 16, 2009 3:17 PM EDT

Just shows what kind of stuff people are willing to waste $5,000 on. If not for the dead people I'd say that if he could con people out of money they should be left to themselves. Now, taxpayers have to pay for an investigation and that really seems unfair.by geminispyder-2009 · October 16, 2009 4:54 PM EDT

"The motivational speaker, author and self-help guru offers clients the promise of spiritual and financial wealth in his programs. The five-day "Spiritual Warrior" course during which the deaths occurred had about 50 participants who paid more than $9,000 each" If his clients want spiritual and financial health, 5 of those participants could've just banded together and opened up a coffee shop in the middle of a populated downtown area.by jamesrandydov · October 19, 2009 4:24 PM EDT

Its sad to see the media pigpile develop, fueled by comments from many people who likely couldn't tell you one sentence about James Ray's teachings and how many people have been helped. While calling him a fraud and huckster, how many of them realize they just dissed the Bible and various other major religious figures, from whom a lot of his teachings are derived? This is a horrible tragedy that occurred during an event by a person who spends over 200 days a year on the road, helping others. His teaching sources? Are all the following hucksters? Jesus, Buddha, Krishna ? A 'little' knowledge is a dangerous thing. My heart goes out to the families who have lost loved ones and to James Ray.by zzazzannii · November 27, 2009 1:31 PM EST

I recently learned of these tragedies when my friends started asking me to stop attending sweat lodges, which I have done with only positive effects for a decade. I feel very compelled to offer some observations, as well as my regret that this has happened. My prayers and thoughts are with family and friends of the victims. If you ever attend a sweat lodge ceremony and find the lodge covered in any way with plastic materials, do not participate. The lodge and people within it must breath and plastic makes this difficult if not impossible. Plastic should never be used to cover lodges while they are in use. Some may put plastic over them to keep them dry when they are not in use, but this should be removed before using the lodge. It is the responsibility of a lodge leader to track the welfare of all those who have entered the lodge. If the group of people is so large as to make this impossible, as was the case here, do not enter. If you feel at all like you need to get out of the lodge, whether it is between rounds or not, whether the door is open or not, whether you have "permission" from the lodge leader or not, you should go. Go through the soft sides of the lodge if you must, if you are being barred exit through the door. At least open the side of the lodge and breath. Sweat lodges are beautiful and cleansing experiences, and I would hate to see lodges in general, as I have in the last few days, held responsible for the neglectful way in which this one was run. The moment I saw the picture of this lodge I knew immediately at least two problems were evident. IMHO, this is definitely at least a case of criminal neglect and involuntary manslaughter by the man who lead this lodge. Blessings of health and awareness. Most sweat lodges are healthy, safe and wonderful. Aho.by starrangelsw · December 9, 2009 2:46 PM EST

Lizbeth Neuman never made it out of her coma, and has died. This is now the third death directly attributable to the James Ray sweat lodge tragedy.

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The Daily Courier
10/17/2009 8:51:00 PM

Third victim of sweat lodge dies (http://http://www.dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&subsectionID=1&articleID=73597)
The Daily Courier

A third victim of the Angel Valley Retreat Center's sweat lodge event has died, the Yavapai County Sheriff's Office announced late Saturday night.

Lizbeth Neuman, a 49-year-old resident of Prior Lake, Minn., died at Flagstaff Medical Center. Neuman was hospitalized after participating in the sweat lodge hosted by James Arthur Ray on Oct. 8 near Sedona.

Neuman marks the third death from the incident. James Shore, 40, of Milwaukee, Wis., and Kirby Brown, 38, of Westtown, N.Y., died on Oct. 8. The Yavapai County Medical Examiner conducted autopsies the next day and the results are still pending. To help investigate the cause of death, authorities have obtained samples of the fabric constructing the lodge roof and also samples of rock, firewood and the wooden dome frame.

There are no other retreat participants remaining hospitalized.

The Yavapai County Sheriff's Office has elevated this investigation from an accidental death inquiry to a homicide investigation.

© Copyright 2010 Western News&Info, Inc.® The Daily Courier is the information source for Prescott area communities in Northern Arizona.

Comment (http://http://www.dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&subsectionID=1&articleID=73597) left for the above article, "Third victim of sweat lodge dies (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=28923&p=384987#p384986)" (10/17/2009, The Daily Courier):

Article comment by: Bad news for Mr. Ray · Posted: Sunday, October 18, 2009

I bet she died of multiple organ failure (brain mainly) due to hypoxemia (lack of oxygen in the bloodstream). That was due to these 60 people being crammed into a low structure that was 400 square feet, breathing hard due to the hot stones and sweating at 3000 foot elevation and no ventilation. They used up too much oxygen. Not exactly rocket science to predict something bad could happen here, and it did. Mr. Ray and his cache of spiritual people had better be praying real hard, and had better have good legal representation. And his cadre of spiritually saavy financial wizards had better have saved up a bunch of coin, he's gonna need that too.

© Copyright 2010 Western News&Info, Inc.® The Daily Courier is the information source for Prescott area communities in Northern Arizona.

CBS News · Crimesider
October 18, 2009 10:30 AM

Third Death from Sweat Lodge Ceremony Led by James Arthur Ray (http://http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-5394208-504083.html)
Posted by Neil Katz

FLAGSTAFF, Ariz. - A third person has died a week after she attended a sweat lodge ceremony at the Angel Valley Retreat Center that has already left two dead and nearly two dozen hospitalized.

The deaths are being investigated as homicides and James Arthur Ray, the self-help guru that led the retreat is in the crosshairs.

Liz Neuman of Minnesota died Saturday at a Flagstaff hospital, Yavapai County sheriff's spokesman Dwight D'Evelyn said.

The 49-year-old suffered multiple organ damage during the Oct. 8 ceremony at a resort near Sedona, a resort town 115 miles (185 kilometers) north of Phoenix that draws many in the New Age spiritual movement.

Authorities were treating all three deaths as homicides, but no charges have been filed.

Neuman was among more than 50 people crowded inside the sweat lodge run by self-help guru James Arthur Ray. An emergency call two hours after they entered the lodge reported two people not breathing.

Twenty-one people were taken to area hospitals with illnesses ranging from dehydration to kidney failure. Kirby Brown, 38, and James Shore, 40, died upon arrival at a hospital.

No one else remains hospitalized.

Authorities haven't determined what caused the deaths. Autopsy results on Brown and Shore are pending further testing.

The Rev. Meredith Ann Murray, who has completed all of Ray's retreats, said Neuman was among Ray's earliest followers and had attended dozens of his events.

According to Ray's Web site, Neuman was the leader of the Minneapolis-area "Journey Expansion Team." The teams, developed by Ray's friends and followers around the country, meet to exchange ideas on his principles. The next Minneapolis-area meeting is scheduled for Oct. 23.

Ray had rented the Angel Valley Retreat Center for his five-day "Spiritual Warrior" event that culminated in the sweat lodge ceremony. Participants paid between $9,000 and $10,000 to attend the retreat.

Ray declined to be interviewed by the sheriff's office on the night of the incident and Arizona authorities said he had not spoken to them as of Thursday. In his first public appearance Tuesday in Los Angeles, Ray told a crowd of about 200 that he has hired his own investigative team to determine what went wrong.

His spokesman, Howard Bragman, has said that Ray's team and Ray's attorney are co-operating with the sheriff's investigators.

More than 100 people attended the funeral for Brown on Saturday at Holy Name of Jesus Church in Otisville, New York, according to The Times Herald-Record newspaper. The avid hiker and surfer who had a passion for art was remembered as a spiritual seeker.

Services for Shore were held late Saturday afternoon at the Hubbard Lodge in Milwaukee.

Copyright ©2010 CBS Interactive Inc.

Comments (http://http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-5394208-504083.html) left for the above article, "Third Death from Sweat Lodge Ceremony Led by James Arthur Ray (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=28923&p=385001#p385001)" (by Neil Katz; October 18, 2009; CBS News Crimesider):

by pete_in_az · October 18, 2009 11:13 AM EDT

Services were held at the Hubbard lodge? Like L. Ron Hubbard?by tuffyturf · October 18, 2009 11:21 AM EDT

What a scam James Arthur Ray is perpetrating. The man is responsible for the deaths of 3 people, and there are more! People have been injured and dying in these "Sweat Lodges" for years. This individual belongs in jail. He was so broken up about news of the deaths that he just had to do back to back speaking engagements at Rancho Bernardo and La Jolla, in California. ( By the way La Jolla is the richest city in America ) He was again pushing his Scam, and trying to sell his products etc. to further enrich him, with your hard earned money! James Arthur Ray was so grief stricken, that he just had to do these engagements the day after people died, under his tutelage! Also, he refuses to cooperate with authorities, or even give a statement. I hope the families of the 3 people, who died, sue him civilly and bankrupt his cult. Then he can tell all his fellow cons about how people paid him $10,000 to be locked in a sauna, in the middle of the desert, while they slowly cooked and suffered brain damage and death! Come on America- wake up! How do people fall for this type of scam? If you want, you can pay me $5,000 and I'll give you a Karate Chop across the bridge of the nose, then I'll whisper inspirational clichés in your ear, and you will come away with the exact same experience that James Arthur Ray offers, at half the price....by dragon8me · October 18, 2009 11:24 AM EDT

I think these people felt obligated to stay until told to leave, instead of leaving when they had enough , especially after paying a lot of money, which is crazy. Noramlly a person wouldn't stay if they started feeling sick. It can be dangerious and I wonder if they were told of the dangers. And then, it was done for profit, so how can it be a spiritual event. I don't know about you but I would never trust the money grubbing types.by vancouverboo · October 18, 2009 11:58 AM EDT

If you die do you get a tuition refund?

by lmartink · October 18, 2009 12:22 PM EDT

Was this the new Jonestown? Why do people fall for nut jobs like this? And as one who has spent a little bit of time in sweat lodges, I know that 2 hours is an incredibly long time in a dangerous and hazardous environment. I'm glad this is being taken seriously, and I've got a hunch the story is going to be fascincating, just like the story at Jonestown.[/list]
by BrianSchider · October 18, 2009 1:20 PM EDT

I live in Sedona and this story disturbs and saddens me. There are many great people that host sweat lodges in Sedona. Everyone of those people that I have met are native american and Know the do's and do not's to providing a save experience. The owners of Angel Valley are great people. It is people like these so called self proclaimed guru's that give the real spiritual people a bad name. Lock this guy up. Show the public that we will not tolerate non natives from exploiting sacred ceromonies for large sums of money. I have been in several sweats and never have I heard of that many people in one sweat. Dehydration should not be a factor considering that natives who hold these sweats stress the importance of drinking plenty of water before the sweat. The right people do not allow weak bodies in a sweat. I hope this sends a message to the rest of the fakes that have blind followers. James Ray was right about one thing. It was a life changing experience. Now he can retire in prison. If he is truly spiritual he will accept a prison sentence, get sued from the families and lose everything he has taken from people. I hope you read this James, get out of your denial, throw the towel in and prepare for a life of making license plates. It's time you find god and prison will show you the way. When spiritual guru's have a team of lawyers that should also say something to the public. When you operate in purity chance will favor you. It's over James, get a new day job.

by doreenpowell · October 18, 2009 7:57 PM EDT

Amen - time for you to begin listening to your own guru - YOURSELF! I have participated in many sweats and have never been asked for one cent. These 'sweats were run by pipe carriers and lodge keepers - not some greedy fake self-professed spiritual guy. The fact that he left the site tells me who he really is. Shame on him and his abundance quackery![/list]
by rsamps1 · October 18, 2009 2:17 PM EDT

Jimmy Ray is a complete whack-job- why was he allowed to leave the state? Clearly he was responsible for these deaths- if not homicide, clearly manslaughter. He's going around acting like nothing much happened, "helping people." It's safe to say that nobody needs James Ray's help...BTW, paying to sit in a "sweat lodge"? Come on people, get a life-by credibility2 · October 18, 2009 4:12 PM EDT

Too many gullible and weak people search for spirituality based on an ad or marketing gimmick. Ray took advantage of these delusional low-esteemed individuals.by SpiritualShow · October 18, 2009 6:23 PM EDT

This is why it's so important for people to realize that they need to follow their own inner guidance rather than that of some guru. These spiritual leaders — teachers have awesome information to share, but take what resonates with you — leave the rest. And do what feels right for you, whether or not it complies with the teachings of whatever practice you follow. Clearly, proper safety measures were not taken — people lost their lives. I don't think it's murder but it's certainly negligent. While there is probably some fault with the organizers of the event, and perhaps criminal negligence, people do need to take responsibility for themselves. I'm not saying the people who suffered injuries or death are at fault, this is a very sad and unfortunate situation. But when we put our faith in some other person, and blindly follow whatever they say rather than following what we know in our hearts to be our own best path, things like this can happen very easily.by fedup12 · October 18, 2009 7:44 PM EDT

by credibility2 October 18, 2009 4:12 PM EDT Too many gullible and weak people search for spirituality based on an ad or marketing gimmick. Ray took advantage of these delusional low-esteemed individuals. ---------------------------------- Good thing the regular low esteemed, gullible people dont have 10G to spend on this updistay itshay...by rwsmith29456 · October 18, 2009 10:46 PM EDT

Three people killed and other people burned? This wasn't a sweat lodge or sauna, it was a furnace.by rtlhaz · October 19, 2009 4:39 PM EDT

since ray might be charged with homicide are the race organizers in detroit going to be charge with murder of the three runners that died?...apples for apples???. it was an accident nothing more.by rtlhaz · October 19, 2009 4:43 PM EDT

since ray might be charged with homicide are the race organizers in detroit going to be charge with murder of the three runners that died?...apples for apples???. it was an accident nothing more.by skysinger1 · October 20, 2009 5:47 AM EDT

An "accident"? That is ignorant. I have attended Inipi (sweatlodge) in northern Colorado for years. Only a person who is honored and earns the rank of Pipe Carrier can lead these ceremonies, legitimately, in Native traditions (at least Lakota). They know to take care of their people during this. Seems like this guy thinks his fabulous spray tan and bleached teeth qualified him. Get real. I used to LIKE this guy actually, but I am off all his lists now.

by rtlhaz · October 20, 2009 11:23 AM EDT

has nothing to do with liking this guy or not...he did not want these people to die...get real..........................[/list]
by yalatanza · October 20, 2009 10:20 AM EDT

Sorry Oprah Winfrey wasn't there because she has turned on a lot of American to this falsehood, the Secret. What would you gain from this gimmick anyway? There are many of them out there making money off insecure people who are looking for that something that has eluding them. They have rejected the true god who has power over all the universe. These Gurus, including Eckhart Toole, and his book of lies "A New Earth" are just fooling people to make money off them. Where in the world can you wish riches and all of a sudden there are millions in your bank account. These are some of foolishness that Oprah was teaching on her web cast all over the world. To those who are being misled, don't feel too bad because you have compnay in Oprah Winfrey and Gale, Jim Carey and his girlfriend Jenny McCarthy, Denzil Wishington and a lot of those hollywood misfits.by manzplan · October 21, 2009 2:52 PM EDT

to yalatanza and the other who choose to use these people's death to promote their agenda of hammering a dying repressive religion back down the throat of the world. Stop it right now. These deaths are a sad thing and have nothing to do with the belief system that Mr Ray promotes or Oprah for that matter, or the many many Physicists who also tell us this is the closet to the truth we have come. You say people should come back to the "One True God" assuming you are speaking of the Christian one, since people who are so narrow minded and bigoted usually are when they make such a statement. How many people have died or become ill at camp meetings and tent revivals from heat exhuastion? Answer many and I have seen quite few in my day when I was forced to go to them. No one forced these folks into the sweat lodge they went willingly. How many people have gotten sick or died from tainted pot luck dinner foods at churches? Answer many not to mention those who died from obesity because of that lifestyle. How many people have died at church camps? on church trips? etc etc etc etc. How many people have been murdered in the name of "The one True God" The list goes on and on for people dying at or on their way to Christian events is very long. The list for deaths "related" to "The Secret" is the 3 people on this page. Guess what? These deaths are not related to "The Secret" or any belief system anymore than those kids who died on a church camp bus a couple years ago is related to Christianity. It just happened and it is sad. Just like a friend of mine's dad who died at a church baseball game. Is that God's fault or the fault of that churches belief system? Grow up. My only problem with Ray's beliefs is that he tries to still fit in the nicey nice crap of Do gooding in an attempt to get people to act nice to others. If you truly understand "The Secret" it has nothing to do with that. It is just your thoughts creating reality. That is all and that in being proven daily in science and in the market place.by gifthorsie · October 26, 2009 9:32 PM EDT

This is such a sad and disturbing story. I feel so badly for the poor people and their families. James Arthur Ray and his 'movement' hints somewhat of brainwashing cults like est that keep people uncomfortable for long periods (stop folks from going to the bathroom, etc) so they can gain control over them. They break them down over a short period, and then build them back up with a sense of euphoria. This is extremely distructive. I trust the government is looking into Mr. James Arthur Ray's personal finances. Someone who would let his own followers die like this is might do other illegal activities like, say, tax evasion? Where there's a Sweat Lodges, there's undoubtedly Fire.

Copyright ©2010 CBS Interactive Inc.

And... here's another article about this news, this one from The Guardian (UK). It seems to be pretty similar to the one published by CBS News Crimesider (above (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=28923&p=384628#p385001)):

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guardian.co.uk
Arizona sweat lodge death toll rises to three (http://http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/oct/18/third-sweat-lodge-death)
Woman, 49, dies of multiple organ failure a week after new age ceremony that left two dead
Associated Press
Sunday 18 October 2009 16.22 BST

A third person has died following a ceremony in a so-called "sweat lodge" modelled on Native American traditions.

A man and a woman died and nearly two dozen people were left needing hospital treatment as a result of the ceremony in Arizona more than a week ago.

Liz Neuman of Minnesota died on Saturday at an Arizona hospital, Yavapai county sheriff's spokesman Dwight D'Evelyn said.

The 49-year-old suffered multiple organ damage during the 8 October ceremony at a resort near Sedona, a town 115 miles north of Phoenix that draws many in the new age movement. The lodge forms part of a new age centre which advertises services of "spiritual cleansing."

Authorities were treating all three deaths as homicides but no charges have been filed.

Neuman was among more than 50 people crowded inside the sweat lodge run by self-help guru James Arthur Ray.

The crowd had been packed for up to two hours inside the lodge, which was a little over 1.5m high in its centre and less than 1m high at the sides.

An emergency call two hours after they entered the lodge reported two people not breathing.

Twenty-one people were taken to area hospitals with illnesses ranging from dehydration to kidney failure. Kirby Brown, 38, and James Shore, 40, died upon arrival at hospital.

All the other victims have now been discharged from hospital.

Authorities have not yet determined what caused the deaths but autopsy results on Brown and Shore will be subject to further testing.

The Rev Meredith Ann Murray, who has attended Ray's retreats, said Neuman was among Ray's earliest followers and had attended dozens of his events.

According to Ray's website, Neuman was the leader of the Minneapolis-area "journey expansion team". The teams, developed by Ray's friends and followers around the US, regularly meet to exchange ideas on his principles.

Ray had rented the Angel Valley Retreat Center for a five-day "spiritual warrior" event that culminated in the sweat lodge ceremony. Participants paid between $9,000 (£5,500) and $10,000 to attend.

Ray declined to be interviewed by the sheriff's office on the night of the incident and Arizona authorities said he had not spoken to them as of Thursday. But, in a public appearance in Los Angeles, Ray told a crowd of about 200 that he had hired his own investigative team to determine what went wrong.

His spokesman, Howard Bragman, has said Ray's team and his lawyer are cooperating with the sheriff's investigators.

More than 100 people attended the funeral for Brown on Saturday at Holy Name of Jesus Church in Otisville, New York, said The Times Herald-Record newspaper. The avid hiker and surfer was remembered as a spiritual seeker.

Services for Shore were held on Saturday afternoon in Milwaukee.

guardian.co.uk © Guardian News and Media Limited 2010

From the above article, "Arizona sweat lodge death toll rises to three (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=28923&p=385075#p385034)":

The Rev Meredith Ann Murray, who has attended Ray's retreats, said Neuman was among Ray's earliest followers and had attended dozens of his events.[/list]

Here's another article, which also mentions Rev. Meredith Ann Murray:

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The Daily Courier
10/17/2009 10:00:00 PM

Sweat lodge deaths cast negative spotlight on guru (http://http://www.dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&subsectionID=1&articleID=73584)
By FELICIA FONSECA and BOB CHRISTIE · The Associated Press

(http://http://www.dcourier.com/SiteImages/Article/73584a.jpg)
This Sept. 2007 picture provided by Rev. Meredith Ann Murray shows her with James Arthur Ray at the Spiritual Warrior Course at Angel Valley Retreat Center in Sedona. Murray said she spent three hours in a sweat lodge led by Ray in 2007 that she said was done safely and helped her conquer claustrophobia. Courtesy of Meredith Ann Murray/AP

SEDONA - James Arthur Ray led a group of more than 50 followers into a cramped, sauna-like sweat lodge in Arizona last week by convincing them that his words would lead them to spiritual and financial wealth.

The mantra has made him a millionaire. People routinely pack Ray's seminars and follow the motivational guru to weeklong retreats that can cost more than $9,000 per person.

But Ray's self-help empire was thrown into turmoil when two of his followers died after collapsing in the makeshift sweat lodge near Sedona; a third died a week later, and 19 others were hospitalized. A homicide investigation that followed has cast a critical spotlight on Ray's company.

Critics are citing the sweat lodge tragedy as evidence that Ray is a charlatan who is not to be trusted. A relative of one victim accused Ray of exhibiting a "godlike complex" during the event that he said recklessly abandoned the safety of participants. Dedicated followers say they fully trust Ray to lead them through exercises that greatly improve their lives.

Shawna Bowen, once a James Ray fanatic who was among those who tended to the ill, has had a change of heart since the deaths.

"I could not imagine people looking to him after he made such egregious errors with human life," she said. "I don't think he has the right to be leading others right now. I think he needs to take a good look at where his ego, where his power trip got in the way."

Ray wept openly during his first public appearance after the deaths. During a free recruiting seminar for his program Tuesday in Los Angeles, he broke down in tears, the confident pitchman momentarily gone.

"This is the most difficult time I've ever faced," Ray told a crowd of about 200 at a hotel in Marina del Rey. "I don't know how to deal with it, really."

Ray has become a self-help superstar by packaging his charismatic personality and selling wealth. Those who first attend his free seminars hear a motivational mantra that promises that they can achieve what he calls "Harmonic Wealth" - on a financial, mental, physical spiritual level.

But his technique is not just motivational speaking. It's a combination of new age spiritualism, American Indian ritual, astrology and numerology. The sweat lodge experience was intended to be an almost religious awakening for the participants.

Ray uses free seminars to recruit people to his expensive seminars, starting with $4,000 three-day "Quantum Leap" workshops and moving on to the weeklong $5,300 "Practical Mysticism" events and the $9,000-plus "Spiritual Warrior" retreats like the one that led to the sweat lodge tragedy.

About 50 people attended the retreat near Sedona, the center of the new-age movement where practitioners draw energy from the surrounding Red Rocks and various vortexes to heal others.

Sweat lodges, commonly used by American Indian tribes, also can be part of the healing process. Stones are heated up outside a lodge, brought inside and placed in a pail-sized hole. The door is closed, and water is poured on the stones, producing heat aimed at releasing toxins in the body.

The ceremonies have been part of Ray's "Spiritual Warrior" retreats for years.

Few details of what actually transpired during the two hours participants were inside the 415-square foot sweat lodge have emerged. Sheriff's deputies in Yavapai County are investigating whether Ray or his staff may have been criminally negligent. No charges have been filed.

The Rev. Meredith Ann Murray spent three hours in a sweat lodge led by Ray in 2007 that she said was done safely and helped her conquer claustrophobia.

"You're warned about all the possible things that might happen, how to take care of yourself, how to listen to your body," said the 56-year-old real estate agent from Bellingham, Wash. "I've done some amazing things I never thought I could do."

But in 2005, during a previous "Spiritual Warrior" retreat at the same resort, a man had to be taken to the hospital after falling unconscious during a sweat lodge ceremony.

Ray, 51, grew up as the son of a Tulsa preacher. Bored with college, he says he pursued a career as a telemarketer and began leading training classes for his employer, AT&T. He began honing his self-help business in the early 1990s.

In a 2008 profile in Fortune magazine, Ray said 5,500 people paid for his seminars in 2007. His books also are major sales drivers, and he told the magazine his revenues went from $1 million in 2005 to an estimated $10 million in 2006.

He soared in popularity after appearing in the 2006's Rhonda Byrne documentary "The Secret," and he later was a guest on "The Oprah Winfrey Show" and "Larry King Live" to promote it. His 2008 book "Harmonic Wealth" made the New York Times bestseller list.

Whether Ray manages to maintain his success in the wake of the deaths depends in part on his supporters, and how long the tragedy dogs him as he goes from city to city recruiting paying customers for his wealth creation/spiritual harmony philosophy.

Critics point to the Sedona events as yet more evidence that Ray is a huckster, who, like other motivational speakers, present their philosophies as a magic bullet to all of life's problems.

"It's honing in on peoples' needs, their hopes and desires, telling them what they want to hear," said Rick Ross, founder of a virtual library of information on controversial groups and movements. "That's how any good con man makes his mark."

Linda Jackson of Brentwood, Calif., already is looking forward to an event Ray has scheduled in the San Francisco Bay area later this year. The 59-year-old says Ray has a rare gift that coupled with charisma, power and a "walk the talk" attitude only helps mankind.

Only God knows whether the recent tragedy will help or hurt Ray, she said. "Maybe it was necessary because he has to be cautious about something."

Ray has no plans to slow down, said his spokesman, Howard Bragman. He'll continue conducting seminars and be a leader, educator and mentor to the thousands who seek his help.

"One of his messages is about dealing with adversity," he said. "He's very clear and his team is very clear that we're going to continue his important work."

© Copyright 2010 Western News&Info, Inc.® The Daily Courier is the information source for Prescott area communities in Northern Arizona.

Quote from: "Ursus"

And... here's another article about this news, this one from The Guardian (UK). It seems to be pretty similar to the one published by CBS News Crimesider:

-------------- • -------------- • --------------

guardian.co.uk
Arizona sweat lodge death toll rises to three (http://http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/oct/18/third-sweat-lodge-death)
Woman, 49, dies of multiple organ failure a week after new age ceremony that left two dead
Associated Press
Sunday 18 October 2009 16.22 BST

A third person has died following a ceremony in a so-called "sweat lodge" modelled on Native American traditions.

A man and a woman died and nearly two dozen people were left needing hospital treatment as a result of the ceremony in Arizona more than a week ago.

Liz Neuman of Minnesota died on Saturday at an Arizona hospital, Yavapai county sheriff's spokesman Dwight D'Evelyn said.

The 49-year-old suffered multiple organ damage during the 8 October ceremony at a resort near Sedona, a town 115 miles north of Phoenix that draws many in the new age movement. The lodge forms part of a new age centre which advertises services of "spiritual cleansing."

Authorities were treating all three deaths as homicides but no charges have been filed.

Neuman was among more than 50 people crowded inside the sweat lodge run by self-help guru James Arthur Ray.

The crowd had been packed for up to two hours inside the lodge, which was a little over 1.5m high in its centre and less than 1m high at the sides.

An emergency call two hours after they entered the lodge reported two people not breathing.

Twenty-one people were taken to area hospitals with illnesses ranging from dehydration to kidney failure. Kirby Brown, 38, and James Shore, 40, died upon arrival at hospital.

All the other victims have now been discharged from hospital.

Authorities have not yet determined what caused the deaths but autopsy results on Brown and Shore will be subject to further testing.

The Rev Meredith Ann Murray, who has attended Ray's retreats, said Neuman was among Ray's earliest followers and had attended dozens of his events.

According to Ray's website, Neuman was the leader of the Minneapolis-area "journey expansion team". The teams, developed by Ray's friends and followers around the US, regularly meet to exchange ideas on his principles.

Ray had rented the Angel Valley Retreat Center for a five-day "spiritual warrior" event that culminated in the sweat lodge ceremony. Participants paid between $9,000 (£5,500) and $10,000 to attend.

Ray declined to be interviewed by the sheriff's office on the night of the incident and Arizona authorities said he had not spoken to them as of Thursday. But, in a public appearance in Los Angeles, Ray told a crowd of about 200 that he had hired his own investigative team to determine what went wrong.

His spokesman, Howard Bragman, has said Ray's team and his lawyer are cooperating with the sheriff's investigators.

More than 100 people attended the funeral for Brown on Saturday at Holy Name of Jesus Church in Otisville, New York, said The Times Herald-Record newspaper. The avid hiker and surfer was remembered as a spiritual seeker.

Services for Shore were held on Saturday afternoon in Milwaukee.

guardian.co.uk © Guardian News and Media Limited 2010

How do you explain to people they don't need someone like James Ray and his price tag $9000.00. That the peace they are looking for is free, you can "sweat" for free, safely. I don't get it.

Comments (http://http://www.dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&subsectionID=1&articleID=73584) left for the above article, "Sweat lodge deaths cast negative spotlight on guru (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=28923&p=385079#p385075)" (by Felicia Fonseca and Bob Christie, 10/17/2009, The Daily Courier/AP):

Article comment by: Mr. Ray is guilty · Posted: Sunday, October 18, 2009

He's going to be convicted of criminal negligence resulting in manslaughter and go to prison is my prediction. Why do I predict that? Because there's no way that 3 previosly healthy people can die within 2 hours if there was not something seriously wrong inside that sweatlodge. You put those 60 on a bus ride to Phoenix and are 3 going to die? Of course not. I think those 60 people consumed too much of the oxygen inside and their tissues became hypoxic and they had brain damage and organ damage. I think putting 60 people into a 20 X 20 low ceiling home made sweatlodge is negligent. I think this guy suggested that they do this and implied that it was safe. He was very wrong. His financial empire is over and he will go to prison. You heard it here first.Article comment by: No name provided · Posted: Sunday, October 18, 2009

Although some of them are quite wealthy and rather accomplished in their careers, I still feel a true sense of pitty for those who would actually seek out a better life by attending something such as this. That seems like a real lost person who will spend such large amounts of money to go and be purely miserable for days on end in order to "cleanse" or "heal" themselves spiritually. In fact, it's pathetic. To seek clarity and purpose in one's life by suffering through some daily torture sessions because some guy says it's the way to do it, is a virtually mindless process.Article comment by: No name provided · Posted: Sunday, October 18, 2009

Really? This guy is a coward and snake oil salesmanArticle comment by: outraged · Posted: Sunday, October 18, 2009

Unfortunately, the tears of James Arthur Ray will not undo the damage that he has done, three deaths now as the result of his reckless "leading". I agree that he does not need to be leading anyone at anything right now.Article comment by: Jeff · Posted: Sunday, October 18, 2009

I figured out how I can supplement my retirement! I can go to Sedona twist myself around, call myself a vortex and boneheads from all over can pay to "experience" whatever it is you experience from vortexs. Good thing Kool Aid wasn't served by this so called guru. Are people really this gullible?Article comment by: R · Posted: Sunday, October 18, 2009

It is disturbing in the extreme that in this country if a man like this can manage to get on the Oprah Winfrey or Larry King show it immediately lends him some unearned seal of approval and credibility. And I am constantly amazed at the huge number of needy, weak, trusting souls out there that so yearn for success and inner peace and power that they will still hop on this guy's very lucrative bandwagon even after he has snuffed three of his followers. What a world we live in!Article comment by: tom.t@commspeed.net · Posted: Sunday, October 18, 2009

Great con man. "I don't know how to deal with it , really". I thought his pitch was to help people in all of life's areas but now he doesn't know how to deal with it? This punk was supposed to have all the answers!! He best start selling all the books & tapes for the settlements will be coming. Go to So Cal where you belong!Article comment by: Paul · Posted: Sunday, October 18, 2009

Bad news for Ray.. the death toll is up to 3 folks now! I sure hope this mounting pressure doesn't collapse this precious man's ability to do good. Not!Article comment by: No name provided · Posted: Sunday, October 18, 2009

I think we should wait to see what exactly happened on that unfortunate day. Why are we always so quick to blame. It would be nice to hear from someone who was actually there to see what actually happened. James Ray has inspired a lot of people. I do not believe he has ever told anyone that his "words" would free them. This article is very loose and nonfactual. But as we all know, this is The Prescott Daily Courier. How about a hot tip? Something that IS important. Why not follow the story of Joe Cervantes, the child molester that will be going to trial in early 2010? This is something that really needs to be covered correctly.Article comment by: No name provided · Posted: Sunday, October 18, 2009

Editor, again your headline is a giant understatement.Article comment by: question · Posted: Sunday, October 18, 2009

I wonder what he reports and pays in taxes....Article comment by: Whoa, this is quite an act. · Posted: Sunday, October 18, 2009

I just visited his website. Talk about selling a bunch of hooey. Snake oil is too good for this dude, makes Professor Harold Hill (of The Music Man) look like Abraham Lincoln. The seminars are between 4 and 10 grand for 3-6 days each. And there are a lot to choose from. Plus he does a load of "free" 2 hour pitches all over California probably to sell you on a high dollar weekend. I guess if you can get on Oprah and TV shows and pimp your act well enough in books you can get rich quick. He sure did, had his 2 minutes of fame. Time for the courtroom.Article comment by: Danny · Posted: Monday, October 19, 2009

I'm a Native American and have been doing the sweatlodge ceremony for 40 yrs. It is one of our sacred ceremonies. We do not 'charge' people to attend nor do we promise financial wealth. Our Sweatloges is for purification and cleansing the body. We pray to the one Creator Tunkasila Wakan Tanka ( Grandfather, Great Mystery or Spirit). Its sad that there are so many non-Indians who pass themselves off as healers and such who use our religion(s) to make money for themselves. Unfortunately, GREED is a great motivator and. The sad part is is that so many good people are looking for quick ways to financial freedom and physical and spiritual healing, this allows these kinds of charlatans to feed off of these people. Our Native ceremonies are thousands of years old and are not meant to be combined with 'New Age" doctrines or beliefs. I hope people out there learn from this and please keep away from these kinds of people who are not Native American and attempt to use our ceremonies and medicines for their own profit. If you need healing, contact a tribe or Native American elder who can direct you to a reputable medicine man or woman. Ask questions about that persons background and if possible talk to people who have been doctored by that person. Beware of fake medicine people both white and non white. I have yet to meet a non Native who uses Native ceremonies to heal people. It's just unheard of.Article comment by: Lost Souls · Posted: Monday, October 19, 2009

Spirituality and financial gain have never mixed. Always give from the heart and never ask for anything in return. We are all on our own journey.Article comment by: It takes two · Posted: Wednesday, October 21, 2009

The part that never ceases to amaze me is that we feel free to blame others for our own ignorance. What about individual responsibility? I don't disagree this man made himself rich and played off of those that need to find something or someone that makes them whole. I am not the sharpest tool in the shed but I took one look at that tent and knew that could be a dangerous situation. I just don't understand why this is totally his fault - I believe that he should have known or seen the dangers but those that attended should have not been so blind by placing all of their eggs in one basket (an expensive one at that). It is called comparative negligence.

© Copyright 2010 Western News&Info, Inc.® The Daily Courier is the information source for Prescott area communities in Northern Arizona.

Quote from: "heretik"

How do you explain to people they don't need someone like James Ray and his price tag $9000.00. That the peace they are looking for is free, you can "sweat" for free, safely. I don't get it.

What don't you get? Just tell them. Show them the articles, both pro and con, about Ray and his cashcow....then show them what a real sweat is and I think they'll be able to figure it out.

Another article about the third death from the sweat lodge tragedy...

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The New York Times
Third Death After Sweat Lodge Ceremony (http://http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/19/us/19lodge.html?fta=y)

By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Published: October 18, 2009

FLAGSTAFF, Ariz. (AP) — A Minnesota woman died Saturday, more than a week after being overcome in an Arizona sweat lodge ceremony.

(http://http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2009/10/19/us/19lodge.inline.jpg)
Liz Neuman

The woman, Liz Neuman, 49, of Prior Lake, suffered multiple organ damage and was in a coma before she died at a hospital in Flagstaff. She was among dozens of people crowded into the sweat lodge on Oct. 8 at a resort just outside Sedona, a town 115 miles north of Phoenix, that draws many in the New Age spiritual movement.

Louis Diesel, a lawyer for Ms. Neuman's family, said it was clear that appropriate measures were not taken to prevent her death. Mr. Diesel said Sunday that he planned to file a lawsuit over her death.

Ms. Neuman, a divorced mother of three who worked as a computer data programmer, was "extremely athletic" and did not suffer from any medical problems, Mr. Diesel said.

A self-help expert and author, James Arthur Ray, had rented the Angel Valley Retreat Center for a five-day "Spiritual Warrior" event that culminated in a sweat lodge ceremony.

Fifty-five to 65 people were in the makeshift sweat lodge over a two-hour period. An emergency call reported two people without a pulse and not breathing.

Twenty-one people were taken to area hospitals with ailments including dehydration and kidney failure. Two people, Kirby Brown, 38, of Westtown, N.Y., and James Shore, 40, of Milwaukee, died at a hospital.

The authorities were treating the deaths as homicides but have yet to determine the cause. Autopsy results for Ms. Brown and Mr. Shore were pending.

Mr. Ray wrote on his Facebook page on Sunday that he was deeply saddened by the news of death of Ms. Neuman, whom he had known for more than seven years.

"Liz was an amazing woman who touched so many lives," he wrote. "She'll be cherished and remembered by all. Liz, you're in our hearts forever. My continued love, prayers and support go out to her family in this time of grief and loss."

Ms. Neuman had attended Mr. Ray's events in the past and served as the leader of a Minneapolis-area "Journey Expansion Team," according to Mr. Ray's Web site. The teams, developed by Mr. Ray's friends and followers around the country, meet to exchange ideas on his principles.

A version of this article appeared in print on October 19, 2009, on page A17 of the New York edition.

Copyright 2009 The New York Times Company

Back to Cassandra Yorgey...

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Examiner.com
Progress report: James Ray sweat lodge scandal (http://http://www.examiner.com/speculative-fiction-in-philadelphia/progress-report-james-ray-sweat-lodge-scandal)
October 19th, 2009 9:01 pm ET · Cassandra Yorgey

Many of you have wondered why I was not the first to post the news about the third death of a James Ray sweat lodge participant - Liz Neuman. I was made aware of it almost immediately and I continue to offer my condolences to her friends and family. Traditional media is all over covering that, so I did not feel I was needed or could really contribute to that conversation in a meaningful way. Sure, I have questions about James Ray's remarks that he had a friend looking over those who were still hospitalized, but I can't be the only one who noticed that. That is a worrisome response to accusations of undue influence over the mental state of others.

Many of you have also pointed out that I write for the internet and have exercised the opinion I am an unreliable source, especially since I continue to respect the anonymity of my sources. That's just fine with me. Most science-fiction and fantasy fans have a habit of turning up in unexpected places. It goes with the territory of having a wide range of interests that are not always related. We are the nerds, the geeks, the thinkers and the speculators. We toss around ideas like others toss around something I've heard termed a "football", whatever that is. Sure, there was some breaking news here, maybe there will be more, but now we get to the heart of the matter – the discussions.

I have publicly accused (http://http://www.examiner.com/x-11245-Philadelphia-Speculative-Fiction-Examiner~y2009m10d16-Breaking-news-Inside-accounts-of-James-Ray-sweat-lodge-tragedy-and-retreat) James Ray of indoctrinating minds (http://http://www.examiner.com/x-11245-Philadelphia-Speculative-Fiction-Examiner~y2009m10d15-Breaking-news-transcript-of-private-call-between-James-Ray-and-sweat-lodge-victims) and using that power unethically and I do not hide my contempt of such behavior. It is now in police hands to investigate, speak with experts in the field, etc. They will deal with him, but it is us that are left to clean up the mess James Ray left behind. Am I getting paid to do this? Well, yeah, but I get paid regardless of what I choose to discuss.

I am a nerdfighter (http://http://nerdfighters.ning.com/) and that means I have a vested interest in spreading awesome and decreasing world suck levels. When I sat around with my nerdfighter hat on, it occurred to me that the best way to fight any dangerous leader is by promoting information, awareness, and discussion. The best way to combat mind-control is with critical thinking. That is why I value the diverse discussion that has been going on in the comments. There are a lot, I mean a really, seriously, huge amount of things to discuss in relation to the James Ray tragedy. James Ray uses what appears to be a brilliant mixed modality that may be self-created. We can discuss the validity of his techniques - heck, the origin of the techniques – other organizations and individuals that use similar information, warning signs that unethical use is going on, what we should do about it. I mean there are literally as many ways to discuss this as there are people in the world. How do we distinguish the facts from the commentary and opinion? We use our own critical thinking skills and research and see what the experts are saying, of course.

In many ways I can identify with James Ray. I am a dabbler in many things and can discuss a wide variety of subjects with limited knowledge or expertise – but unlike him, I do not claim to have all the answers, quite the opposite. I like to learn stuff, all kinds of stuff, and I welcome everyone to join in the discussions I am going to continue to post. I do this because I do not fear having my ideas questioned. My ideas will either hold up under scrutiny or they will not. People are constantly thinking up things I have not, or bringing new information to my attention, or showing me a side of something I hadn’t thought about before. Those with well-reasoned ideas based on factual knowledge tend to be the best at changing my opinion on something or at least bringing to light a new challenge we have to look at while formulating a solution. Do I know everything that is going on right now? No, and I mean no! I am still sorting through fact and fiction to the best of my ability to contribute to this discussion in the most factual and helpful manner possible. Since I have started discussing James Ray and his sweat lodge tragedy many new leads and sources have come forward with things they would like me to look at and start a conversation about. I am continuing to look at it.

What can you do while you are waiting for me to post again? You can read the comments on my previous posts and join in the continuing discussion there or you can check out the links I put up in the sidebar to discussions I think are worth looking at, although I may not necessarily agree with everything (or anything) in them. Better yet, start your own discussions relating to an aspect of the case you are familiar with or recall your own good and bad experiences with James Ray and/or his teachings. In between writing, researching, and sleeping I will continue to sabotage my own paycheck by offering free advice on how best to cover this story to the traditional-media-type-people contacting me with offers of interviews; Offers that are then withdrawn, only to use my "pre-interview" information to find a new angle. Maybe they do not know I offer this advice for free to everyone, right here. I also offer a wide variety of opinions for free over on my LiveJournal, because (as you’ve no doubt noticed) sometimes I have opinions on things that do not relate to speculative fiction. Seriously, I could mine the James Ray scandal for years and compare and contrast his techniques to fact and fiction. It’s possible I just might. Either way, I am not nearly done on the subject.

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Comments (http://http://www.examiner.com/speculative-fiction-in-philadelphia/progress-report-james-ray-sweat-lodge-scandal) left for the above piece, "Progress report: James Ray sweat lodge scandal (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=28923&p=386213#p386212)" (by Cassandra Yorgey; October 19th, 2009; Examiner.com):

by Realist · 12 months ago

Cassandra, thank you for the explanation which I regret that you felt compelled to write. I have been consumed with this story ever since it broke. My interest is stoked by personal experience that left me turned off, suspicious, and angry. Of all the blogs and direct news source articles I've heard or read in the past week, I always come back to yours. It is the most comprehensive, the most informative, and you examine and probe more angles than any other single source. Plus, the comments people leave in response to what your articles bring up for them are more thoughtful than those on practically any other site that deals with this man, and there are many digging for information and hoping to uncover more clues to his counterintuititive behavior.by Realist · 12 months ago

Cassandra, thank you for the explanation which I regret that you felt compelled to write. I have been consumed with this story ever since it broke. My interest is stoked by personal experience that left me turned off, suspicious, and angry. Of all the blogs and direct news source articles I've heard or read in the past week, I always come back to yours. It is the most comprehensive, the most informative, and you examine and probe more angles than any other single source. Plus, the comments people leave in response to what your articles bring up for them are more thoughtful than those on practically any other site that deals with this man, and there are many digging for information and hoping to uncover more clues to his counterintuititive behavior.by Hurt by James Ray · 12 months ago

by Ace · 12 months ago

Hurt by James Ray?, the Horton Plaza Mall exercise is most likely the one where JR dresses everyone up in ripped up and tattered clothes with dirt and gunk smeared on their faces and in there hair to pose as homeless people on the streets of SD for a couple of hours. People are asked to play full on as if they were homeless; meaning some asked for food and money while other did not. Others were there but at the CAW I was at in 2004 we were told to avoid other participants. It was suppose to be an individual challenge. After the fact as some of us talked about our experience amongst ourselves it was reveled that some people faced dangerous situations. That is why when I first read about this I wondered if she had been harmed by someone she encountered during her time on the streets. My wife had a rather large man pursuing her to go home with him if he was more aggressive who know what would have happen and I was threatened because I was in another homeless person?s turf.by Hurt by James Ray · 12 months ago

by Ace · 12 months ago

Hurt by James Ray?, the Horton Plaza Mall exercise is most likely the one where JR dresses everyone up in ripped up and tattered clothes with dirt and gunk smeared on their faces and in there hair to pose as homeless people on the streets of SD for a couple of hours. People are asked to play full on as if they were homeless; meaning some asked for food and money while other did not. Others were there but at the CAW I was at in 2004 we were told to avoid other participants. It was suppose to be an individual challenge. After the fact as some of us talked about our experience amongst ourselves it was reveled that some people faced dangerous situations. That is why when I first read about this I wondered if she had been harmed by someone she encountered during her time on the streets. My wife had a rather large man pursuing her to go home with him if he was moreaggressive who know what would have happen and I was threatened because I was in another homeless person?s turf.by Saturn · 12 months ago

by Andrea de Michaelis · 12 months ago

I just discovered your pages about James Ray n am enjoying your writing. I may not agree with everything you say but you make me think n see things from another angle. In the past 17 years I've published Florida's new age magazine, Horizons, n I've seen lots of people get wrapped up in this guru n that; even smart people, even knowledgeable, informed people. Folks are so ready for change n deliverance from their boring n routine lives that they gladly place their trust in whoever has the most compelling spiel. They want to die to their old selves n be re-born again. It's not that they're willing to risk their lives for it, it's that they haven't seriously contemplated the consequences of their choices. They frantically go from one guru to another, one workshop to the next, waiting for someone to magically make it all better. They don't take much time for critical thought or inner work. Then they attract situations they resonate in "vibrational" harmony with and don't know why.by Ex JRI Warrior · 12 months ago

by Cynthia Gracie · 12 months ago

by Dianne · 12 months ago

Cassandra--thanks for what you are doing here. I'd appreciate some advice about how to get the mainstream media to do more investigating. Why isn't the media following this guy? There should have been cameras outside his recent event this past weekend that he continued to put on in spite of Liz Neuman's death. Why are dozens of camera men outside the 'balloon guy's' house, but no one outside JR's house? I'm really confused as to why no one seems to be following this story as deeply as you are. Please go into more detail about this man's brainwashing techniques--I'm sure you've already discovered rickross.com which has a lot of interesting information on how men like JR hold people in their sway. Please also check out an article on Narcissistic Personality Disorder in spiritual gurus by Linda Martinez-Lewi in ezinearticles.com. Fits James Ray perfectly. Dr. Martinez-Lewi might be a great person to interview.by John · 12 months ago

by Cassandra Yorgey · 12 months ago

The triple manslaughter trial AZ v. James Ray continues to be covered on court TV this week, showing footage of testimony heard on Friday. Clips of testimony include descriptions of his responses and lack of response. One woman tells of him ignoring an injured woman who was calling out for him, adding “He just kept walking, he was completely out of touch”
Another clip tells of a man who had suffered from the heat and who had quieted after screaming “I don’t want to die”. When this man saw James Ray he told him “James, I died and I came back”. James reportedly did elect to respond to this person and he is said to have congratulated him.

Strangely their (CTV) question of the day for viewers to text their answers to was “What sort of power do think James Ray had inside that sweat lodge?”

Quote from: "Inculcated"

The triple manslaughter trial AZ v. James Ray continues to be covered on court TV this week, showing footage of testimony heard on Friday. Clips of testimony include descriptions of his responses and lack of response. One woman tells of him ignoring an injured woman who was calling out for him, adding “He just kept walking, he was completely out of touch”
Another clip tells of a man who had suffered from the heat and who had quieted after screaming “I don’t want to die”. When this man saw James Ray he told him “James, I died and I came back”. James reportedly did elect to respond to this person and he is said to have congratulated him.

Strangely their (CTV) question of the day for viewers to text their answers to was “What sort of power do think James Ray had inside that sweat lodge?”

Jeesh!!!! IDK, maybe that of the tsunami that rolled over Japan. Like I said though IDK. :wall:

(http://http://beyondgrowth.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/jamesray349-200px.jpg) (http://http://i.i.com.com/cnwk.1d/i/tim/2011/03/01/image6172272x_244x183.jpg)

Sweat Lodge "guru" convicted on 3 counts!!!!!!

Looks like it didn't take the jury long either. They started deliberations on Tuesday, came back with the guilty verdicts Wednesday. Of course, like Miller Newton, nothing seems to stop these malignant narcissists. Wait til you get to the last sentence.

http://http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/06/22/national/main20073479.shtml

(AP)

CAMP VERDE, Ariz. — A self-help author who led a deadly sweat lodge ceremony in Arizona was found guilty of three counts of negligent homicide Wednesday.

Jurors in the case against James Arthur Ray began deliberating Tuesday after a four-month trial.

Ray showed no reaction as the verdict was read. His parents and brother sat behind him, while victims' family members and friends held hands and looked on from across the courtroom.

Prosecutors asked that Ray be taken into custody immediately, but the judge denied the request.

More than 50 people participated in the October 2009 sweat lodge that was meant to be the highlight of Ray's five-day "Spiritual Warrior" seminar near Sedona.

Three people died following the sauna-like ceremony meant to provide spiritual cleansing. Eighteen were hospitalized, while several others were given water to cool down at the scene. Prosecutors and defense attorneys disagreed over whether the deaths and illnesses were caused by heat or toxins.

Ray's attorneys have maintained the deaths were a tragic accident. Prosecutors argued Ray recklessly caused the fatalities.

Ray used the sweat lodge as a way for participants to break through whatever was holding them back in life. He warned participants in a recording of the event played during the trial that the sweat lodge would be "hellacious" and that participants were guaranteed to feel like they were dying but would do so only metaphorically.

"The true spiritual warrior has conquered death and therefore has no fear or enemies in this lifetime or the next, because the greatest fear you'll ever experience is the fear of what? Death," Ray said in the recording. "You will have to get a point to where you surrender and it's OK to die."

Witnesses have described the scene following the two-hour ceremony as alarming and chaotic, with people dragging "lifeless" and "barely breathing" participants outside and volunteers performing CPR.

Two participants — Kirby Brown, 38, of Westtown, N.Y., and James Shore, 40, of Milwaukee — died upon arrival at a hospital. Liz Neuman, 49, of Prior Lake, Minn., slipped into a coma and died more than a week later at a Flagstaff hospital.

In court Wednesday, members of Neuman's family and a friend of Brown held hands while the verdict was read.

Ray's attorneys maintained the deaths were nothing but a tragic accident, and said Ray took all the necessary precautions to ensure participants' safety. They contend authorities botched the investigation and failed to consider that toxins or poisons contributed to the deaths and called two witnesses to support that argument.

Prosecutors relied heavily on Ray's own words to try to convince the jury that he was responsible for the deaths. They said a reasonable person would have stopped the "abomination of a sweat lodge" when participants began exhibiting signs of distress about halfway through the ceremony.

Sweat lodges typically are used by American Indians to rid the body of toxins by pouring water over heated rocks in the structure.

Ray became a self-help superstar by using his charismatic personality and convincing people his words would lead them to spiritual and financial wealth. He used free talks to recruit people to expensive seminars like the Sedona retreat that led to the sweat lodge tragedy. Participants paid up to $10,000 for the five-day program intended to push people beyond their physical and emotional limits.

Ray's popularity soared after appearing in the 2006 Rhonda Byrne documentary "The Secret," and Ray promoted it on "The Oprah Winfrey Show" and "Larry King Live."

But his multimillion-dollar self-help empire was thrown into turmoil with the sweat lodge deaths. Ray ended his seminars shortly after but has continued to offer advice throughout his trial via the Internet and social networking sites.

Read more: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/06/ ... z1Q679cedX (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/06/22/national/main20073479.shtml#ixzz1Q679cedX)

Welcome back, Anne. Glad to see you here getting into the discussion. I think this will be overturned on appeal. Those people could have walked out whenever they wanted to but they choose to stay.

...

Awwww, where's DannyB to defend this piece of shit?? :roflmao: This was his guy! His mentor, his guru. Who he wanted to be, IMO.

New Warrior Men!!!!

(http://http://bestnetguru.com/storyforchildren/gorilla.gif)

Shitbag gave the families $5k. 1/2 of what they paid to die and a fraction of what he's made off of these vulnerable people seeking real spiritual advice.

I must confess, I haven't kept up with my news coverage of this case. I got burnt out.

:suicide:

Fornits

Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Anonymous on October 09, 2009, 05:44:55 PM