Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Anonymous on October 01, 2009, 11:22:41 AM
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I'll be damned if I'd ever handle well, a life involving my fellow Americans' tax dollars supporting programs on the lobbying advice and subsequent government decisions based (in part) on approvals set forth by CAFETY and its management!!
Sure, these people are survivors, lawyers, politicians, whatever.... yeah, they spoke on CapHill. But, it seems to me that a significant amount of hard work to STOP the abuse/fraud is being circumvented by these lobbying efforts. That smacks of a "can't beat em, join em" attitude.
When does Scheff get her voice back? :roflmao: What a mess!!! :smashcomp:
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Could you be more specific?
How exactly is this happening and what exactly is happening?
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Yeah....very confused what you mean here.
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Well, let's see here... the hubub generated by CAFETY and HR911 give the appearance that very concerted efforts are being made by CAFETY to have this bill passed. That sounds like lobbying... Correct me if this is not true.
It seems that if HR911 were passed, folks like Sue Scheff would have yet another shield to hide behind and the door to "illegitimate" treatment would get wider. Every time laws are passed, people and companies find ways around them. Although not a cure-all by any standards, the original bill was the best rendition. All subsequent bills have had very little teeth.
Call this HR911 a license to pollute, so to speak, like the EPA charges fines and hefty permit fees for industries to pollute water, ground, air, etc...
It would be very discouraging for me to live in a country that supports systematic abuse and torture of kids, in part due to the efforts of the "victims" of same to sway the government into such law. Perplexed is how I feel right now. Been that way for a long time.
Last but not least,
Presenting ISAC Corporation as a "survivor group" instead of an "organization" on CAFETY.org, well, that is an incorrect classification. FYI: ISAC became a 501c3 organization in 2003...
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Still confused, lobbying simply means dialoguing w/ politicians and hoping to sway them to your point of view. Whats the problem?
Also, I don't see where ISAC is listed as a group? Or why it matters, frankly.
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It's easy... its all about the issues of supporting and opposing programs, many of whom are abusive, fraudulent, etc... scroll back in the forums here, you'll see what I mean. If you're new here, it may take a while.
analogy:
The DFAF talks about how bad drugs are, etc... all the while lobbying Congress to make rules about drugs... like they are some kind of experts. They have doctors, lawyers, "professionals" etc... on board that make them appear as some kind of formidable force in the drug war.
BTW, How did CAFETY get involved in this lobbying business? The original bill came out a couple years or so before CAFETY became of age... so to speak.
As far as the org/group thing... http://cafety.org/sites-we-like (http://cafety.org/sites-we-like) well, you're right... who cares? :roflmao:
My personal opinion is that as long as John Boehner is in Congress, this bill will never become law. I'm pretty sure he's the one that killed the first rendition. Yep, him and his buddies from Ohio.
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It's easy... its all about the issues of supporting and opposing programs, many of whom are abusive, fraudulent, etc... scroll back in the forums here, you'll see what I mean. If you're new here, it may take a while.
analogy:
The DFAF talks about how bad drugs are, etc... all the while lobbying Congress to make rules about drugs... like they are some kind of experts. They have doctors, lawyers, "professionals" etc... on board that make them appear as some kind of formidable force in the drug war.
BTW, How did CAFETY get involved in this lobbying business? The original bill came out a couple years or so before CAFETY became of age... so to speak.
As far as the org/group thing... http://cafety.org/sites-we-like (http://cafety.org/sites-we-like) well, you're right... who cares? :roflmao:
My personal opinion is that as long as John Boehner is in Congress, this bill will never become law. I'm pretty sure he's the one that killed the first rendition. Yep, him and his buddies from Ohio.
I agree with you, especially on the Ohio John Boehner point.
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It's easy... its all about the issues of supporting and opposing programs, many of whom are abusive, fraudulent, etc... scroll back in the forums here, you'll see what I mean. If you're new here, it may take a while.
I'm no CafetyFAN but I don't think I've ever seen them actually support a program. Could you clarify this point some with specific references?
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It's easy... its all about the issues of supporting and opposing programs, many of whom are abusive, fraudulent, etc... scroll back in the forums here, you'll see what I mean. If you're new here, it may take a while.
I'm no CafetyFAN but I don't think I've ever seen them actually support a program. Could you clarify this point some with specific references?
Why did you abuse children at Three Springs? Did you feel that was the only way to gain control?
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Ow gawd, this is freakin me out a li'll. I went looking for recent John Boehner (?b?-n?r) news cause I know that he has the distinction of being the first and, likely, only congress-critter crazy enough to come out publicly advocating torture by that name. Instead, I find this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7iY5P7woO8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7iY5P7woO8)
Rick Sanches holds a special place in the hearts of So. Floridians. Back when the first wave of the BÜsh Reich started bombing the fuck out of Iraq, Rick Sanches hit a pedestrian on the way home from a football game. Unlike the rest of us, the cops let him go home, show, have a cup of coffee and some mouth wash and then return to the scene hours later for a pretend drunk test. Next thing ya know, he's promoted from half assed, half drunk local talking head to National Blow Dried Media Darlin on CNN. The joke of the day was if you found yourself trapped in an elevator with Sadam, Rick Sanches and only had one gun and two bullets, what would you do? Shoot Sanches twice and talk philosophy with Sadam till the firemen came.
That's it. I'm goin ta bed. Wish me happy dreams. :suicide:
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BTW, How did CAFETY get involved in this lobbying business? The original bill came out a couple years or so before CAFETY became of age... so to speak.
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My understanding is that Kat Whitehead, who founded CAFETY, went to Capitol Hill in 2005 when the first bill was introduced, as a member of ASTART and working alongside Bazelon Center for Mental Health Law for a press briefing and met with George Miller then. After that, I guess after founding CAFETY, that continued under the auspice of CAFETY and sometimes ASTART.
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I think CAFETY does good work both broad anf narrow in scope. They do a lot to get FFS to be held accountable and overlapping members work with FFS Truth. I also think MMS got shut down. And didn't Phil Elberg help get Thayer? He works with CAFETY also. :rocker:
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I'll be damned, I get what you're saying. By having a codified, legal set of guidelines by which the torture can legally continue the torture will continue with even more cover. And we all know there is no way to codify what we're talking about out of existance. I'm sitting here talking to a recent war vet, comparing notes.
The object of the Program is to break us. The object of minitary training is to make the recruit tough, high functioning and capable. Same tactics until you get down to the nitty gritty.
But I don't think we can stop it. Americans' first response to anything lately is "There ought to be a law and more public funding". It's shameful, but it's so. So since we can't stop it we may as well salvage what we can out of it. The process of making legislation and pursuing litigation always generate discussion. They serve to bring these issues to the attention of at least some of the public. Some years down the road the public concience may do the right thing. In the mean time, all we can do is get people to start thinking about it any way we can.
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The piece that may be missing is how many kids are being abused and tortured compared to the number being helped by the industry? It may sound insensitive but if this ratio can be improved then we are heading in the right direction and putting good efforts to work.
Do kids get raped by their teachers in public school? Of course they do (we have all read the articles) but the number being raped pales to the number who benefit the school system. So it continues forward. The same should be true of the programs. You will never get there unless you step back and look at the bigger picture and measure the positive effects (not just the negative). Fornits focuses only on the negative aspects of programs and I think that is where many at fornits miss the message and will never be part of the overall solution.
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The piece that may be missing is how many kids are being abused and tortured compared to the number being helped by the industry? It may sound insensitive but if this ratio can be improved then we are heading in the right direction and putting good efforts to work.
Do kids get raped by their teachers in public school? Of course they do (we have all read the articles) but the number being raped pales to the number who benefit the school system. So it continues forward. The same should be true of the programs. You will never get there unless you step back and look at the bigger picture and measure the positive effects (not just the negative). Fornits focuses only on the negative aspects of programs and I think that is where many at fornits miss the message and will never be part of the overall solution.
Blah blah blah, same ol' refrain, one more time, probably for the benefit of newer marks.
Bunson, the flame in yer burner has gone out, and ya got left is gas escaping.
Rapes often happen in programs because kids' natural boundaries are eroded to abnormally low levels. That erosion is intentionally induced by the programs. "Break 'em down, to build them back up." Remember? Rapes which happen in public schools generally occur for different reasons.
Moreover, programs generally punish the victim for the rape, blaming her or him for somehow causing the event, or, at the very least, for being in some way responsible for it. The perpetrator generally gets off with a slap on the wrist, if not scot free. Not so in public schools. Plus, legal access is not denied to kids raped in public schools.
No comparison here, Bunson.
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The piece that may be missing is how many kids are being abused and tortured compared to the number being helped by the industry? It may sound insensitive but if this ratio can be improved then we are heading in the right direction and putting good efforts to work.
Do kids get raped by their teachers in public school? Of course they do (we have all read the articles) but the number being raped pales to the number who benefit the school system. So it continues forward. The same should be true of the programs. You will never get there unless you step back and look at the bigger picture and measure the positive effects (not just the negative). Fornits focuses only on the negative aspects of programs and I think that is where many at fornits miss the message and will never be part of the overall solution.
Blah blah blah, same ol' refrain, one more time, probably for the benefit of newer marks.
Bunson, the flame in yer burner has gone out, and ya got left is gas escaping.
Rapes often happen in programs because kids' natural boundaries are eroded to abnormally low levels. That erosion is intentionally induced by the programs. "Break 'em down, to build them back up." Remember? Rapes which happen in public schools generally occur for different reasons.
Moreover, programs generally punish the victim for the rape, blaming her or him for somehow causing the event, or, at the very least, for being in some way responsible for it. The perpetrator generally gets off with a slap on the wrist, if not scot free. Not so in public schools. Plus, legal access is not denied to kids raped in public schools.
No comparison here, Bunson.
Rape is the least of your problems in a program. Rape is worse for your brain than 6 months at CEDU. Teen torture cults: making rape seem comparably good since Synanon, 1950(?).
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Link? We see evidence of studies which show these programs to be very effective and when posted here on fornits everyone kicks up a dust storm trying to discredit each study...i.e author linked to a program, study not published in a journal, not sure where the funding came from,didnt have a PhD. So why should you expect others to take your stories at face value without even an attempt at providing a link or independent evaluation to back up your claims?
I mean even if someone did a study who was linked to a program by being a survivor, we could beat it down a little, but it would at least be a start. But you never provide anything to support yourselves.
Always been curious of this double standard.
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Link? We see evidence of studies which show these programs to be very effective and when posted here on fornits everyone kicks up a dust storm trying to discredit each study...i.e author linked to a program, study not published in a journal, not sure where the funding came from,didnt have a PhD. So why should you expect others to take your stories at face value without even an attempt at providing a link or independent evaluation to back up your claims?
I mean even if someone did a study who was linked to a program by being a survivor, we could beat it down a little, but it would at least be a start. But you never provide anything to support yourselves.
Always been curious of this double standard.
Lol. You are so hell-bent on recycling all your talking points, Whooter, you've lost track of which conversation you're participating in.
My guess is this is the wrong thread, Whooter Bunson. This is the "Cafety Issue" thread. There was no link nor study mentioned prior to your post.
The trauma study thread is HERE (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=28915). Fourteen years in the making so far, close to 18,000 subjects, and links up the whazoo. Knock yourself out.
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Blah blah blah, same ol' refrain, one more time, probably for the benefit of newer marks.
Bunson, the flame in yer burner has gone out, and ya got left is gas escaping.
Rapes often happen in programs because kids' natural boundaries are eroded to abnormally low levels. That erosion is intentionally induced by the programs. "Break 'em down, to build them back up." Remember? Rapes which happen in public schools generally occur for different reasons.
Moreover, programs generally punish the victim for the rape, blaming her or him for somehow causing the event, or, at the very least, for being in some way responsible for it. The perpetrator generally gets off with a slap on the wrist, if not scot free. Not so in public schools. Plus, legal access is not denied to kids raped in public schools.
No comparison here, Bunson.
Lol. You are so hell-bent on recycling all your talking points, Whooter, you've lost track of which conversation you're participating in.
My guess is this is the wrong thread, Whooter Bunson. This is the "Cafety Issue" thread. There was no link nor study mentioned prior to your post.
The trauma study thread is HERE (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=28915). Fourteen years in the making so far, close to 18,000 subjects, and links up the whazoo. Knock yourself out.
I luvs the bear :hug:
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Yea, I think our OP has his brain on backwards, but ya know if you go looking for some reason to hate anything you'll find it.
I think CAFETY is doing what they can, they certainly are not a lobbyist group, and were not created for that reason, they are simply a conglomerate of people who through personal experience believe there NEEDS to be change in the TTI and are the only ones willing to do something about it. Even if HR911 didn't exist they would still be out there spreading awareness about these issues and doing the footwork to get this cause into the mainstream. You can disagree with their methods all you want but at least they are doing something, which is much more than can be said about most people who just want to sit around and whine and complain about it.
Like Ive said before HR911 is just a step forward, whether it passes or not it has opened many many peoples eyes to our cause already, a few years ago barely one person in Washington even knew about this issue and now, this information has passed through a committee, the house of representatives, its currently in the senate and hopefully soon will cross the desk of the President of the United States. Not even CAFETY's toughest critics can deny that that sounds like progress.
HR911 might be a gummy mess only reminiscent of their initial intentions when they started on this road to reform, but as soon as that door is opened, I can assure you there will be bill after bill after bill (not to mention lawsuits) until we can finally sleep well at night knowing that children and adults are safe from systematic abuse in residential institutions. You may not be able to see the forest through the trees but I can assure you CAFETY is devoted to pushing, fighting and putting in the work to make this world just a little bit of a better and safer place, and for that, we should all be grateful.
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Fem... you think the only ones doing anything about this TTI are CAFETY? It would be best if it doesn't pass. For me it's all or nothing, even with my brain on backwards... This isn't about hating things.....
BTW, lots of people in Washington knew about this issue LONG ago... they are part of it. Does this rendition include kids in the offshore programs? And who will benefit from the lawsuits?? :eek:
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Fem... you think the only ones doing anything about this TTI are CAFETY? It would be best if it doesn't pass. For me it's all or nothing, even with my brain on backwards... This isn't about hating things.....
BTW, lots of people in Washington knew about this issue LONG ago... they are part of it. Does this rendition include kids in the offshore programs? And who will benefit from the lawsuits?? :eek:
Well, I cant say they are the ONLY ones doing ANYTHING... but as far as tangible results I think they have made significant headway. AS well, their actions have served as a catalyst for other groups to even be heard. I think there are many groups out there with different strategies, some successful and others seem to be doing nothing more than pissing in the wind. Honestly its all the infighting, If were are all against the TTI and the torture of underage citizens then we are all on the same side, yet some of us waste most of our time and energy we have available to devote to the cause just arguing amongst ourselves about difference in forecasts for what will "eventually" work to solve this problem. Meanwhile the programmies have gathered an army of zealous cult supporters to oppose us.
Fuck the differences you may have with CAFETY, if you support the movement against the TTI then you need to realize they are doing their best to fight that fight FOR YOU. You can dissagree with their methods but you can't knock them for a lack of effort. I hooked up with a CAFETY member about a year ago and we went to an event where all we did was talk about the issue, pass out brochures and spread awareness. That wasn't lobbying, that was FOOTWORK. I also work pretty closely with CAFETY, despite the fact that they are a start up organization their progress is impressive and to tell you the truth, their efforts supporting the bill HR911 is really only about 15% of what they do.
You can take what you hear or think you know about CAFETY on face value, but unless you have worked closely with them you have very little room to complain about what efforts they are taking, at least they are doing something. I personally believe they are doing a fantastic job and are a valuable asset to the cause. Of course you don't have to agree with me, all I hope you can realize is that we don't have any room to be impeding upon the progress of our own team members when we have such a mountain of an enemy to overcome in front of us.
and to answer your question, the lawsuits should benefit the survivors, the very people whose lives have been destroyed by the recklessness of these programs and their staff members. If laws are passed then people have the law on their side when the program slips through the cracks of reform and continues to abuse patients. At this point, most personal injury lawyers wont even TOUCH this kind of case. AS WELL this law being passed opens a door for criminal charges being pressed against those program staff who choose to defy regulation. An influx of lawsuit and criminal charges would make the biggest impact on a programs decision to comply with regulation or not. The thing is, we can sit here and speculate the pros and cons of this bill passing, which would be a constructive thing to do in a more formal and cooperative context, but blasting an organization for their efforts supporting something they believe will help our cause is just being counter-productive.
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It would be helpful for them if they could take the time to talk about these activities a bit more. They really ought to take the time to create a monthly or even weekly newsletter of sorts relating what events took place over the past month. Heal does this and its quite nice to keep up with what is going on with the organization. The only time I've heard from Cafety is when they wanted to vote for a new board of directors.
Communicating with their own community is a good start and communicating with a larger audience of survivors and other anti-program activists couldn't hurt either. I truly did not know anything about their footwork. They could easily resolve this problem by making these activities a bit more known to us proles.
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Ok, well, I do not support settling for less. How many chances do you get in life? After all, Miller started all this bill stuff after he read the ISAC WWASP Crimes Report which was hand delivered to him out there in CA in 2004. I think it's great that he started this effort, but since then it's been chopped up so much it's better left dead at this point. I don't see CAFETY in the "Referral Free Zone" yet they are on this "bandwagon". I find it odd how all these "EXPERTS" came on board after the work was done and are pressing so hard for regulations with dull teeth. The fact that survivors are involved, well, it's disturbing to me. The adage something is better than nothing is not good for this situation, IMO.
FOOD for thought:
In Ohio, MI and IN for example, it was found that the public "knows better" when dealing with licensed/accredited/abusive/fraudulent programs like PFC/KHK. The customer base was derived from deceptive marketing and parents who claimed this treatment to be good, even though the vast majority of customers there left early or never started treatment. Once the cats were out of the bag, (websites, protests, education efforts) the collective consciousness of the people took over and well, the program couldn't hide anymore. Donors dried up and potential customers steered clear. Antigen has touched on this aspect many times over the years. Rampant Talking Out In Group.
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Rampant Talking Out In Group, is worthy name for a group on its own.
bbl, trying to decide if Elvis's Burning Love Song is a reference to venereal disease or not.
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You will never get there unless you step back and look at the bigger picture and measure the positive effects (not just the negative). Fornits focuses only on the negative aspects of programs and I think that is where many at fornits miss the message and will never be part of the overall solution.
Bunson, you're probably operating on some misconceptions about the makeup of regulars around here. Most of us are program graduates. Many of us were considered successful graduates (i.e. in good standing, not hostile to the program, in compliance) for years or decades after graduation. Many of us were never clients, but parents, friends or relatives to program clients or former staff. Some very few of us (myself included) didn't finish a program (though I was on the final phase and taking the pre-training course for staff, which included a lot of staff duties when I left). That leaves a very, very few of us who split, got pulled or for whatever reason could be considered program failures.
And the overwhelming vast majority of us consistently report a lot of negative effects and very little, if any, benefit. Now, I'm talking about "us"--a group of people loosely defined by having become habitual participants in this forum. There is no entity called "Fornits". It's just the name of a website. If the content of this site is overwhelmingly negative toward programs maybe it's because programs produce overwhelmingly negative effects. That would be the most obvious explanation. Think horses, not zebras.
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Rape is the least of your problems in a program. Rape is worse for your brain than 6 months at CEDU. Teen torture cults: making rape seem comparably good since Synanon, 1950(?).
I have to throw in my .02 here. I actually was raped while I was on the run from the program. I so thoroughly conditioned to constant trauma that it didn't even phase me emotionally at the time. I made a conscious decision to turn down an offer from a bystander to call the police or take me to a hospital. I just weighed the options; chance of pregnancy or std against the certainty of being sent back and tortured. I have not regretted that decision.
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Oh, hon...I'm so sorry. How awful.
Auntie Em