Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Carey on August 30, 2003, 09:40:00 AM
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Subj: Class Action Lawsuit against WWASP
Date: 12/31/02 4:02:07 PM Central Standard Time
From: SLS1262
To: xxxxxxxxxx
2003 will be the year that the class action if finally forming.
If any of you are interested in joining, please let me know and I will put you in touch with the attorney that is preparing the affidavits.
With a class action lawsuit, you will not have to keep involved. I know many of you want to forget much of it, however all that is needed for now is your sworn affidavit. After that, it will be a while before it ever goes to trial or if it goes to trial.
If you are an ex student and are 18 years or older, you can file on your own with our attorney. There is no fees for any of you. The Attorney is preparing a file to give to a very large law firm.
I fully respect any decision you make.
Happy New Year to all of you.
Sue Scheff
954-xxx-xxxx
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carey remember it's puff puff pass don't bogart that sweet.
your point? i didn't see mention of pure in any of your email? i see addys and sue scheff's name? how does this make it pure? are you jealous that your media attention has ended? to bad you can't join the class action? or maybe you should call huron?
what happen to your signing off? oh, that's right you had to come back to spread the "scarey carey" story and how pure beat you up. what a joke.
now remember, puff puff pass then exhale.
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Subj: Confidential
Date: 2/28/03 8:23:53 PM Central Standard Time
From: SLS1262 aka Sue Scheff
To: Careycbock
I am sending you this because it yanks at my heart! The entire thread on the BBS is justifying it telling the guy their kids have been there months, years.... and not to worry he will thank you...NOT. He has only been at Dundee for about a month and a half. Use caution if you write, and always say it was just sent to you from another parent that doesn't want their name told. My God the kid is only 14!
(The above is Sue's message to me.)
****************
(Below is what someone had cut and copied from the BBS and sent it to Sue. Sue then sent the above and below to me all as one email.) Hope this helps to explain what this is all about.
Gil L.
Member
Member # 4495
posted February 26, 2003 01:20 PM I just had our call with our FR today and it was a tough one. Our son is very emotional and has been now for a couple of weeks. Boy, it sure is hard to hear that you kid is just crying all the time.
I so wish I could make it better, but the only thing I know to say to make him stop is something that we can't do (take him home) right now.
I know he is there to help with his behavior issues, but man this is hard. I sure hope it starts getting easier at some point in the future. Our FR suggested writing letters to him that call him out on his denial about why he is there, and It is hard to bring myself to do that. I want him to know, but don't want to cause him any more pain then what he is being challenged with right now in the program.
6 weeks and level 1 0 points. When does it start to get better? (I know, it starts getting better at Discovery, but that is still a month away)
I am venting more then anything, but feedback is always welcome.
--------------------
Registered for Discovery - 3/21
Son Spencer, 14 enrolled in DRA since 1/11/03
Profile for Gil L.
Member Status: Member
Member Number: 4495
Registered: January 13, 2003
Posts: 79
Email Address: g.XXXXX@verizon.net
Location: Dallas, TX
Your Full Name: Gil XXXXX
Student's ID # (Not your billing #): N/A
[ This Message was edited by: Carey on 2003-08-30 17:27 ]
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Carey,
You need to find a hobby. Do you sit around all day and dig into your old e-mails to find things to expose to get attention?
Are you now on WWASP payroll? Why don't you just post all your e-mails concerning them so that they know what all of us have been doing over the past year....... They probably have a full time person dedicated to this site to find out what Carey will share with them.
You are hurting everyone, including the children that are still in these facilities, by exposing things that have happened in the past. The school in Costa Rica was closed with alot of hard work from many, including yourself. Why are you digging up old e-mails? Look to the future and help the kids that are still in these hell holes.
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Subj: Re: [Trekkers] From DT's Board-To Charlotte and all
Date: 10/20/02 8:42:18 PM Central Daylight Time
From:
Reply-to: intrepid-l@fully-baked.org (http://mailto:intrepid-l@fully-baked.org)
Sent from the Internet (Details)
Charlotte and all,
I have been in touch with Deborah Thomas (DT). I am not 100% on her mission, and Donna H. and I felt she was all over the map, with an agenda that is not exactly clear. She is at times, very anti all programs, when in fact some children really do need help. Just the right help. And then she can go into the medication, school districts and other issues of discern "to her." I am glad Jeff is there monitoring it for us, just in case they do get some good information for us.
The fact that she has both Barbe Stampe and Alexia Parks (both woman that Donna H. had a bad taste for, with good reason) on her board, makes me wonder. I am not sure who you are sending Phil's diary to, but please let me know first. I don't want it to end up in the wrong hands. Some people are in this for monetary reasons, while we are here for the children. That is the difference in a nutshell.
Sue
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Carey, while it's not clear that Sue and PURE started the class action, one thing is clear, and that's they are heavily involved in it. The e-mail was dated New Years Eve last year, so it seems likely they started the ball rolling right around the time of the court hearing between them and wwasps: http://www.purerebuttal.com (http://www.purerebuttal.com)
Thank you for sharing the e-mails, however the second one from the bbs doesn't make a lot of sense to me personally.
Those that don't want to share what you know are sure slamming on ya, girl! Hang in there.
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Thanks, I will. They are now posting lies that I have proof of. I do not believe a word they say! I have seen them for what they really are.
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On 2003-08-30 13:20:00, Carey wrote:
"Thanks, I will. They are now posting lies that I have proof of. I do not believe a word they say! I have seen them for what they really are. "
BUSTED, SCARED, PANICKED, WICKED!!?? :wink:
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On 2003-08-30 11:00:00, Carey wrote:
"Subj: Re: [Trekkers] From DT's Board-To Charlotte and all
Date: 10/20/02 8:42:18 PM Central Daylight Time
From: intrepid-l@fully-baked.org (http://mailto:intrepid-l@fully-baked.org)
To: intrepid-l@fully-baked.org
Sent from the Internet (Details)
Charlotte and all,
I have been in touch with Deborah Thomas (DT). I am not 100% on her mission, and Donna H. and I felt she was all over the map, with an agenda that is not exactly clear. She is at times, very anti all programs, when in fact some children really do need help. Just the right help. And then she can go into the medication, school districts and other issues of discern "to her." I am glad Jeff is there monitoring it for us, just in case they do get some good information for us.
The fact that she has both Barbe Stampe and Alexia Parks (both woman that Donna H. had a bad taste for, with good reason) on her board, makes me wonder. I am not sure who you are sending Phil's diary to, but please let me know first. I don't want it to end up in the wrong hands. Some people are in this for monetary reasons, while we are here for the children. That is the difference in a nutshell.
Sue "
Who is Deborah Thomas and what "board" is Sue Scheff referring to?
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Is Deborah T the same Deborah that posts her novels that are of very little interest to most other than the blatant attack on a religious group? If so, and she has her own board, what's the board and link? So she does have or did have contact with PURE at one time or is she still?
I find this thread very enlightening. Thank you Carey for once again showing us what PURE is all about- and it doesn't seem like it's FOR the kids OR the parents that want REAL help.
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P.S. - what a news story this would all make! This one would be based on verifiable facts! :rofl:
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This is very interesting.
Let's get a few things straight. I appreciate the opportunity to address this.
I don't have a BOARD, never have. I do have a highly screened LISTSERVE that I sat up over two years ago with some very distinguished members- ex-parents, advocates, authors, and activists, some who have not had any direct contact with the industry at all; but who were interested in exploring and discussing the atrocities of "Teen Help Industry" in general. It is called Teen Help Activism. Hence, the reason Sue may have had an interest in what was happening there.
At the time of its inception, I knew very little about the industry, but wanted to understand more about the warped individuals who had seized control of my son and my rights. I had no idea there was an arm of WWASP refered to as Teen Help and never intended the list to be focused on WWASP. My son was in a non-WWASP facility- I used the term Teen Help to describe the entire industry, as many did and do. The idea for a listserve was hatched on the "We've Been There" message board, and is still posted there.
Jeff has been a member of that list from very early on, but at no time identified himself as a Pure representative. His membership to the list was approved by the other members. Several said he would definitely be an asset to the group and no one opposed. And honestly, when the day is done, I don't care if he is there. I have no private or hidden agenda. I wanted a private place to share information with others without being subjected to miserable pro-program messages that made their way onto every message board I had found. I didn't want to hear one more person tell me to relax, all was well, let the program work. Although Jeff never disclosed much about himself, he has shared some important information with others and has never once promoted or mentioned Pure. Under those conditions he is welcomed to remain a member, as the purpose of the listserve is to share information.
Over the months I did notice that all Jeff's post were pertaining to WWASP, but thought, of well, that's who his beef is with. I still support any effort he makes in the direction of exposing the truth about that particular program/conglomerate.
A number of other members of my listserve who will remain unnamed, post here regularly and absolutely know that I am anti-any program or ed con and have no affiliation with anyone. They are not anonomous posters and have no affiliation with anyone either.
As to Sue's comment that she had been in contact with me- IF she ever had any contact with me she either used an alias or did so via another person. I don't know who Donna H is?? I assume Sue was attempting to case me out to see if I was friend or foe, and APPREARS (according to this email) to have had Jeff keeping tabs on my listserve.
Oh well, I'm sure they all found out soon enough, as she states, that I was "all over the map, with an agenda that is not exactly clear". That's because there was NO AGENDA, but to share information, vent, and vision. She might have mentioned the lengthy discussion that occured regarding the creation of an alternative to the illegal incarceration of youth. Something along the lines of a free safe house for teens who were having problems with their parents. I'm sure that one blew her mind.
I obviously wasn't a candidate for the Pure camp, but Sue was apparently interested in any information that may have been shared on my LISTSERVE (not a board) which might serve her agenda.
There was a time, in dire desperation, that I emailed any and everyone who had any connection to the industry and appeared to be speaking the truth about it. I was seeking information, advice or referals to attorneys. I remember mailing Ginger, Wes, Barbe, Alexia, and others I've forgotten, and several attorneys- but never Lon or anyone else in the business of placing teens. I wanted help getting my son out, not in finding a placement. And I trusted no one who played any role in the industry. It could've happened that I stumbled onto her website in a search, but I feel certain I would not have sought advice from an Ed Con. If I did, I do not remember it and it would not have been more than a request and response, because we are absolutely not on the same page, in terms of what constitutes "helping" teens.
And, as I've said here before, aside from despising what she does for a living- I don't have any personal beef with her. What I know about her is what I have read here. If she instigated the class action, I really don't care. If it is successful, I will be pleased. If the entire industry goes down, even better still.
Deborah
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Deborah - have you ever heard the term - KISS - keep it simple sweetie - again, you've just said a lot of nothing. :wink:
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:rofl:
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[ This Message was edited by: KarenZ on 2003-10-17 18:13 ]
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There is one last thing I want to point out about one of the posts on this link.
No were could I find a reference to tell the worried dad to contact anyone for alternative placement; or anything at all, besides giving him information over and above what he?d get on the BBS.
He would certainly have been free to disregard it and follow the advice he got from the legions of Faithful; But at least he would have had the opportunity to consider a wider span of information, upon which to make life altering decisions.
Don't worry Karen, he and I talked. I told him what I had run into with Dundee and why I was concerned. We exchanged several emails about Dundee. I won't share them here, as he is an innocent bystander, unlike those affiliated with Sue.
Karen, why am I not surprised that you make reference to offering "alternative placement?"
You and Sue are just a like. This is how it works: Pull the teens from the WWASP programs so that you and Sue can find them "alternative placement" and yet you know nothing about this kid.
It is not my place to tell anybody else what is in the best interest of their child and you know what, it is not yours either. It is my responsibility to share what I have personally seen and heard...that is what being a witness is all about. But it is not my place to whitewash or bloat the truth.
I would like to note that when I first put that email on the web I forgot to delete his last name and his email address. I owe him an apology for that. Gil, I am sorry.
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This whole business of professional (sic) parents referring kids into programs for a "finders fee" ($$$$ paid by the referred program) is despictable. Bravo to Carey and others for taking a stand against these scumbags.
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Question:
How would you and the other members of your list serve feel about a one time member posting the private messages on public forums?
That depends on the context of the discussion.
An informational message would be acceptable. If the message included anyone's name or personal information, I don't believe it is appropriate to do so without permission from that individual.
As to Carey's purpose for posting the message from Sue, I can only imagine her intention.
Perhaps her sole intention was to show more of the behind-the-scenes dialogue with the Pure people, and establish that Jeff has an affiliation with Pure and was "monitoring" me and my "board". If that is the case, great, thanks Carey for the heads up. I believe it would've been more appropriate to send it to me privately, but, so much for lack of internet etiquette.
Still, its neither here nor there. My list is not consumed with disiphering who's who in the ongoing debate about Pure. I don't think the members have ever discussed Pure, pro or con.
If it was an attempt to prove I have an affiliation with Pure, it was lame. I believe she is consumed with identifying us and them- who is with Pure and who is against. If that is how she wants/needs to spend her time right now, I say go for it- best case scenerio, some good will come from it. Worst case scenerio- she will loose credibility due to her methods and/or have some apologies to make in the future.
If she continues to think that I have any connection to Pure, she will have to sit with her distressed imaginings until a time when she is able to be more objective, as I believe that nothing I could say at this point would matter. Time, if nothing else, will expose the truth about us all.
Deborah
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Actually Deborah, my reason for posting that email had nothing to do with you. My point was, as it was titled "This one is a joke...Sue's not in it for the money...right."
Though it does tend to tell more than just that. It says something about Jeff and Sue and how they operate.
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[ This Message was edited by: KarenZ on 2003-10-17 18:16 ]
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Karen, wrong again.
No were could I find a reference to tell the worried dad to contact anyone for alternative placement; or anything at all, besides giving him information over and above what he?d get on the BBS.
Are you saying you did not make the above statement? Is that not you saying "no where (although you did not spell the word correctly) could I find a reference to tell the worried dad to contact anyone for alternative placement." Then you go on to say "or anything at all, besides giving him information over and above what he'd get on the BBS." Let me explain it to you. The second part of the post is taken from the BBS. Do you get it now?
Your point was, why did I not try to help this dad. FYI, I did. I shared with him my issues and concerns with Dundee. That is how I try to help parents and teens. I don't try, as you and Sue do, to find or suggest "alternative placement."
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Actually Deborah, my reason for posting that email had nothing to do with you. My point was, as it was titled "This one is a joke...Sue's not in it for the money...right."
Carey,
I'd like to believe you, but I don't.
If it had nothing to do with me, you would have eliminated my name or just left initials.
Further, leaving my name in the message was not necessary to expose what you claim you were exposing. Probably one of the reasons people get angry with you- drawing third parties into things when its not appropriate or necessary.
Perhaps I missed it, or was expected to read between the lines again, but which statement in her email is an example of or proves she's "in it for the money"? It doesn't seem to be a good example of that, unless her reference to the "diary" infers something that I/we know nothing about.
Everyone knows she's in it for the money, placing teens is her livelihood. That's not a point that needs to be proven or clarified.
Deborah
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//Let me explain it to you. The second part of the post is taken from the BBS. Do you get it now? //
I can see that - and No, I don't get it now. Once more I am thinking, So what?
//Your point was, why did I know try to help this dad//
Honestly, Carey - I think I would be the better judge of what my point was/is.
You did as you tend to do - scanned over something very superficially, jumped to the conclusion your paranoid imaginings dictated, and made a statement based on just that.
My Point is; No body asked you to write this man about anything other than your experience. No body said ?have him call me? - or anything else - at all associated with trying to make a buck. In fact anonamy was requested.
I in no way ment to be commenting on weather or not you wrote him. I assumed you had. I?m saying thats ALL that was suggested you might want to do.
I'm just pointing out, what you posted here, in no way makes the case you clam it dose.
Thats my point.
And I?m not even trying to point it out to you, but to others, who might not take the time to read it, and assume you know what your talking about b/c you posted it.
I know trying to reason with you to be as foolish a waste of time as singing to cats in the rain.
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Karen Z., for someone who claims to be such a thorn in PURE's side, how is it that you know so much about the founder, Sue Scheff? Don't you think people are wise to you, by now, and know not to trust a word you say because come another day, you will sing another tune?
Can we say F.L.A.K.Y. here?????
:scared:
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I'd like to believe you, but I don't.
If it had nothing to do with me, you would have eliminated my name or just left initials.
I did not know that the Deborah in that email was you. That is why when the anon asked if it were the same Deborah or not, I did not answer. However, knowing now that it was you, helps to explain some of the other emails that I had also recieved in the past.
Further, leaving my name in the message was not necessary to expose what you claim you were exposing. Probably one of the reasons people get angry with you- drawing third parties into things when its not appropriate or necessary.
Who gets to deem what is necessary or appropriate? You? Sue? Who? Not me. I just tell what I know firsthand. Besides I did not drag you into this conversation, Jeff and Sue did.
I have made a lot of people angry over the past year in my attempt to expose the truth. I am not telling what I know to win friends, I am telling what I know because it is necessary.
Perhaps I missed it, or was expected to read between the lines again, but which statement in her email is an example of or proves she's "in it for the money"?
I believe I titled that post "its a joke" not "here is proof".
Just like you yourself state: "Everyone knows she's in it for the money, placing teens is her livelihood." She, Sue that is, thinks she is convincing others that she is in it because she cares. She said she is not in it for the money. That is the joke! Get it?
Karen, How do you know so much about Sue? That is a very good question? Especially since you claim to have such a limited association with her, or so you say.
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[ This Message was edited by: KarenZ on 2003-10-17 18:21 ]
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[ This Message was edited by: KarenZ on 2003-10-17 18:22 ]
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Whether or not Sue Scheff is in it for the money or not, is not important. There are many others that are helping families because they really do care and are also paid for what they love to do. That's NOT a bad thing. :wink:
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My assocation with Sue was/is exactly what your was/is; except as I pointed out before, You were let go (twice) and I quit.
I believe you referred to it as "kicked off" when you were "let go" from the WWASP BBS for expressing your own opinion, one in which did not parrallel WWASP's views. You can call it what ever you would like, it is all the same to me. Anyway, it was necessary. You know why? Because, IT WAS AN EYE OPENING EXPERIENCE. This helped me to see who and what kind of people were associated with "the group." I would much rather be able to express my views and opinions than to have to keep them to myself just so I could belong to "the group."
You quit. That is funny. Does that mean you were working for them? Sounds like it. Of course you are still gumming for them, every chance you get. Defending PURE to the bitter end.
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Karen's song and dance is nothing but a smoke screen to cover up her inconsistencies.
:flame:
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Who gets to deem what is necessary or appropriate? You? Sue? Who? Not me.
Carey,
Not you? Of course you are deeming it appropriate to post private communications, you did. And you chose to leave a third party's (my) name in the email, whether you knew it was me or not. It was "some" third party, and if you didn't know who that third party was, then all the more reason to delete the name. It doesn't matter that it was me. Their musings about me and what I was about had nothing to do with the reason you gave for posting it.
**I just tell what I know firsthand. Besides I did not drag you into this conversation, Jeff and Sue did.
Actually Carey, they were having a PRIVATE conversation, trying to figure out what I was about. That's what groups of people who are aligned do. Ever worked in a group? It's to be expected. If they'd have asked, I'd have told them.
Neither of them "drug me into" the PUBLIC conversation on this message board.
You did.
Carey you said:
My point was, as it was titled "This one is a joke...Sue's not in it for the money...right."
then,
"I believe I titled that post "its a joke" not "here is proof".
She, Sue that is, thinks she is convincing others that she is in it because she cares. She said she is not in it for the money. That is the joke! Get it?
No Carey, I don't get it.
I've read that email three times now and I can not see anything in that message that validates THE REASON YOU STATED FOR POSTING IT. I asked you which statement indicated, alludesd to, proved, (whatever word fits here for you) that she's in it for the money- your stated reason for posting it. You didn't answer the question.
Because your responses don't make sense and are irrational, I continue to believe you had other motives.
Deborah
[ This Message was edited by: Deborah on 2003-08-31 21:56 ]
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On 2003-08-30 20:43:00, Deborah wrote:
"This is very interesting.
Let's get a few things straight. I appreciate the opportunity to address this.
I don't have a BOARD, never have. I do have a highly screened LISTSERVE that I sat up over two years ago with some very distinguished members- ex-parents, advocates, authors, and activists, some who have not had any direct contact with the industry at all; but who were interested in exploring and discussing the atrocities of "Teen Help Industry" in general. It is called Teen Help Activism. Hence, the reason Sue may have had an interest in what was happening there.
At the time of its inception, I knew very little about the industry, but wanted to understand more about the warped individuals who had seized control of my son and my rights. I had no idea there was an arm of WWASP refered to as Teen Help and never intended the list to be focused on WWASP. My son was in a non-WWASP facility- I used the term Teen Help to describe the entire industry, as many did and do. The idea for a listserve was hatched on the "We've Been There" message board, and is still posted there.
Jeff has been a member of that list from very early on, but at no time identified himself as a Pure representative. His membership to the list was approved by the other members. Several said he would definitely be an asset to the group and no one opposed. And honestly, when the day is done, I don't care if he is there. I have no private or hidden agenda. I wanted a private place to share information with others without being subjected to miserable pro-program messages that made their way onto every message board I had found. I didn't want to hear one more person tell me to relax, all was well, let the program work. Although Jeff never disclosed much about himself, he has shared some important information with others and has never once promoted or mentioned Pure. Under those conditions he is welcomed to remain a member, as the purpose of the listserve is to share information.
Over the months I did notice that all Jeff's post were pertaining to WWASP, but thought, of well, that's who his beef is with. I still support any effort he makes in the direction of exposing the truth about that particular program/conglomerate.
A number of other members of my listserve who will remain unnamed, post here regularly and absolutely know that I am anti-any program or ed con and have no affiliation with anyone. They are not anonomous posters and have no affiliation with anyone either.
As to Sue's comment that she had been in contact with me- IF she ever had any contact with me she either used an alias or did so via another person. I don't know who Donna H is?? I assume Sue was attempting to case me out to see if I was friend or foe, and APPREARS (according to this email) to have had Jeff keeping tabs on my listserve.
Oh well, I'm sure they all found out soon enough, as she states, that I was "all over the map, with an agenda that is not exactly clear". That's because there was NO AGENDA, but to share information, vent, and vision. She might have mentioned the lengthy discussion that occured regarding the creation of an alternative to the illegal incarceration of youth. Something along the lines of a free safe house for teens who were having problems with their parents. I'm sure that one blew her mind.
I obviously wasn't a candidate for the Pure camp, but Sue was apparently interested in any information that may have been shared on my LISTSERVE (not a board) which might serve her agenda.
<
And, as I've said here before, aside from
Deborah"
Wise up Deborah, Donna H. is the late Donna Headrick, founder of Intrepid Net Reporter (now known as Intrepid Net Reporters).
:rofl:
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Deborah,
You don't have to get it. It is not necessary that you do. You do not have to like that I posted it. Like I already said, I have posted a lot of things that have upset a lot of people. I do not remember asking for approval from you and your listserv anymore than I remember asking for Sue and her listserv's approval. Nor do I remember asking for WWASP's approval or Dundee's approval when I have posted things about them. That is not what these forums are about.
These forums are about sharing your experience so that others can learn from them and possibly avoid making the same types of mistakes. Of course there is one big difference that you and I share, we did not make the mistake, our ex's made the mistake. But still, we can share with others what has happened to our families and hopefully others will be able to avoid the pain.
You see those who don't have things to hide, do not have a problem with what I post. Those who do are afraid of what I know.
I am going to say this again, as I know I have stated it in the past, WWASP did not hurt me and my boys, Dundee, PURE, Bozak, Amberly and Joe are the ones who are responsible for that. These are the individuals who exploited my families situation.
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[ This Message was edited by: KarenZ on 2003-10-17 18:26 ]
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Karen,
How about letting Sue and the others who exploited me speak for themselves. You were not a part of any of that. So you do not know anything about it other than what THEY/SUE tells you.
Yes, I could have brought my boys home without their help. Did I know that at the time. NO. I was doing what I did the way that I did based on what I was being told.
Let me ask you Karen, why do you think I could not have done it without their help? You seem to imply that I could not have brought my boys home with out their help. Explain that...with all your intimate knowledge of the situation.
Let me also ask you this, how do you think they helped? In what way? Once again with all of your intimate knowledge of the experience. Share with us...please!
I can assure you, you have no idea!
By the way, when we were in Costa Rica, you know what Bozak asked me, "What in the world has Sue been telling you about this place?" Karen, what do you think he was getting at?
I would love to share his and my contract. The one he and I signed. I can assure you had nothing to do with what we did. Why? He and Sue are connected. I have the email to prove that. Why did he not want to talk to the reporter? Can you answer that? Didn't think so. I did what I did because I was scared shitless for my boys. THEY took advantage of that! Did they do what they did because they cared, no they did it for the money!
Karen what do you really know about anything?
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Don't worry Carey, not everybody following this dialogue is stupid enough to buy into Karen's version of the truth when it's obvious she has a vested interest in promoting PURE's agenda (even if she isn't a REAL MEMBER). LOL
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Yeah, why doesn't the great and powerful OZ come out from behind the curtain and enlighten us with her PURE vision of reality?
:rofl:
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Karen Z writes: "I don?t think green fever is one of them. I just never saw any indication of it."
Because YOU have NOT been open to seeing it. Your awareness seems very selective - if it's NOT about money, what is it? Uh, okay, maybe it could also be because wwasps shut her out - b/c maybe they saw how she operates and wanted nothing to do with it?? :wink:
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So Karen, are you suggesting that others should view Sue as a philanthropist? Whose mission is saving American Youth by assisting their parents with placements into teen warehousing facilites?
One thing I've noticed, people never get "enough" money or status.
Deborah
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[ This Message was edited by: KarenZ on 2003-10-17 18:28 ]
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the joke is the fact that crazy carey is derranged enough to think the class action is about her obbession. get a life carey.
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On 2003-09-01 16:25:00, Anonymous wrote:
"the joke is the fact that crazy carey is derranged enough to think the class action is about her obbession. get a life carey."
No stupid head, you are the crazy one. The proof is in the pudding (the emails shared by Carey which reveal the truth about PURE). But go ahead, try to unring the bell anyway. Nothing else to do ....
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Carey, in a post made today, Labor Day, said:
"I am going to say this again, as I know I have stated it in the past, WWASP did not hurt me and my boys, Dundee, PURE, Bozak, Amberly and Joe are the ones who are responsible for that. These are the individuals who exploited my families situation."
Ms. Bock has every right to wish vengence on whoever she thinks did her wrong. I was just very surprised by her statement.
About this statement, that WWASP did not hurt her... My feeling about this Teen Help board was that the WWASPS modality, being so similar to Straight, etc., was the culprit, and that it was the greater evil to be targeted. While each facility trumpets individual ownership, they all state, loud and clear, that they all use the same model of behavior modification. That model is what I personally feel is wrong, abusive, and fraudulent.
I have a different perspective now as Ms. Bock has explained her argument is with individuals and small companies who individually and personally affronted her and her children. I now understand why Ms. Bock keeps bringing back every thread to her personal issues with this small group. By reminding myself that I am personally hurt by WWASPS, and Ms. Bock has been personally hurt by [the whole raft of complainants], I may be able to distance myself from Ms. Bock's very different goals. My goal is to make a better safety net for teenagers and their parents who expect one thing, and get another. It is very apparent now that Ms. Bock and I are not on the same mission. As long as her mission doesn't smother mine, go for it, Carey.
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Spots, you are just now figuring out that you and I are not on the same mission. I knew that about 50 posts ago and several emails ago.
I am going to hold accountable those who have hurt my family. Like I said, that being Dundee, PURE/Sue, Bozak, Amberly and Joe. You see what has been done to me is fact.
If you have a beef with Casa, WWASP and whoever else, go get em' tiger. But I am not going to jump on the bandwagon with a bunch of others who make accusations and then don't have shit to back them up with. If people like Chris want to tell me they have pictures of kids in dog kennels...then show them to me. Do not just make the claim and expect me to believe it just because you say it so. Thats not right. You and I have had this conversation before, privately. If there are pictures of kids in dog kennels and people like Chris are holding them out for revenge in a court case while children are suffering (if it really is so) then shame on them. I would hate to think that if what Chris says is true, that your granddaughter could be in one of those cages right now as a result of Chris keeping them secret for a case in court that could take months. Wouldn't you? Either its a crock of shit, or those people with the pictures are pretty ruthless and self centered.
No we are not on the same page, you are right about that. Never will be. You see, I am kind of a "show me the money" kind of person. I want proof. Not accusations. I will be the first to say "oh my god, unbelievable" when I see proof. Until then you can rant and rave all you want about what you want and I will do the same myself.
You go after your boogie man and I will go after mine. Obviously, the two are not one in the same.
By the way, there was nothing hidden inside the post. It was right there in black and white just like everything else I stated.
[ This Message was edited by: Carey on 2003-09-01 18:14 ]
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I know that if someone has pictures of kids in dog cages, they weren't taken at Casa by the Sea! That would have been exposed many times over! There's been too many kids, too many parents and too many government inspections to not have found that. What intelligent person would even latch on to something so outrageous?
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No it wasn't at CBS, it was at Dace's dumping ground, High Impact.
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[ This Message was edited by: KarenZ on 2003-10-17 18:30 ]
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Karen, have you personally seen this evidence? I mean, your understanding has been wrong before (voy forum where you said someone was killed at High Impact only to change your story (after someone challenged you)to say you were "mixed up" and that a kid died at another program). The ole' oops, I was wrong, so what excuse, seems to be a pattern with you.
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Hey I'm not a Mentat; I do sometimes make mistakes.
At least I make an effort to rectify the situation when it happens.
As for the cages - Its my understanding, and its based on what I believe to be true information - but I could be mistaken - Thus the phrase 'thats My understanding.'
I didn't proclaim it as true just because I believe it to be so.
You are certainly free to believe me crazy to think this could be true.
Someday, maybe, one of us will be proven wrong.
I don't *think* it will be me.
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Hasn't High Impact been closed for over two years?
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On 2003-09-02 08:22:00, KarenZ wrote:
"Thats what my understanding is as well - the dog crates were at High Impact, and there is evidence students spent time in them.
"
Okay, if there is evidence to support your contention that students spent time in these dog-cages, then it seems Carey has a good point about how suppressing this "evidence" could be considered unfair or even wrong. What do you think? Personally, I think this whole affair is messed up.
:???:
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Kids WERE put into cages at Hi Impact.
It has been confirmed over and over again.
Do you think we fight this fight because we have nothing beter to do.
We fight because children have been mistreated, abused.
No need to share the pictures with people who would neglect to put them to purposeful use.
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No need to share the pictures with people who would neglect to put them to purposeful use.
What a crock..."purposeful use." Whose purpose, YOURS?
If there are pictures of kids in cages and someone is holding on to them for a "purposeful use" I hope to hell they go to jail for not handing them over to the proper authorities. Who are you anon (Christine) or the holder of the pictures the ones who should determine what a "purposeful use" is. That is like having proof of child abuse and keeping it hidden allowing it to continue.
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The pictures came from High Impact.Not Casa.
As you may or may not know Hig Impact has been closed for almost two years. Dec 2003 will be two years.
Carey expalin to the nice people why you continue to harp on this subject.That YOU wanted to place the pictures on Lon Woodbury's site.(Mr. WWASP's friend,WWASP advertiser himself).That does'nt make a whole hell of a lot of sense.
Spare the crap about saving kids. You don't care about helping the kids.Yourself, your image, your precievd notion of being harmed by everyone other than WWASP. Get real.
You continue to sing the same song over an over.
Your voice is getting raspy,like an old shrew....
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Who confirmed Hi Impact put kids in cages? PURE? That would be BIG news, don't you think, and since they've been closed two years, and no one has SEEN these supposed pictures, it isn't true, in my view. Think how STUPID that story sounds!! :wink:
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On 2003-09-02 20:51:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Kids WERE put into cages at Hi Impact.
It has been confirmed over and over again.
Do you think we fight this fight because we have nothing beter to do.
We fight because children have been mistreated, abused.
No need to share the pictures with people who would neglect to put them to purposeful use."
How could anyone in their right mind subscribe to such PURE lunacy? And this is insane! Hoarding evidence, plotting revenge, manipulating parents and even kids, all for the sake of promoting the ill-fated agenda of your "fearless" (sic) leader. Do you have any idea who you sound like???? Look in the mirror. The enemy is YOU.
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Carey,
eever heard of karma or what goes around comes around? or you reap what you sow? can't imagine you being a mom with your vindictive attitude-poor boys- perhaps you got what you put into your children, your marriage, and your not helping kids here when you profess to. It's all about Carey and what everyone did to me! wake up and take care of yours before trying to "HELP" anyone else.
some people go on and on to cover up what they do not want to face themselves.
Do you have any long term friends? How do you get along at your job?
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All you pure fanatics would be wise to worry about the skeletons in your own closets.
:scared:
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Fearless leader?
Again your facts are inaccurate.
The pictures BELONG to someone who has chosen not to share them on Public forum.That IS their perogative.
They will be available to view eventually.Maybe...
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The ENEMY is a huge moneymaking "nonprofit" empire who professes to helping kids and families.
My family was better off prior to our involement with WWASP. That is a fact I experienced.
Describe a Pure fanactic? That's so off base it's ridiculous.
WWASP fanactics I am familiar with .
Brainwashed,cult like, skillful Vision's marketing Program experts. That I am familiar with .
I have experienced that fanatical group(s).
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Seeking justice for injuries received would be more appropriate.Oppose to seeking revenge. Justice not revenge. There is a difference.
You Anon, cotinue to discredit my assertion kids,families have bben harmed. Why do you do so?
Do you think it is made Up?
I'm curious to better understand where you are coming from.
Do YOU have a child in the WWASP Program ?If so which?
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Who are wwasps leaders? Aren't all the parents and kids given the knowledge to be their own leaders, within their families and in their own life? Ken Kay is the President and seems to encourage leadership not so much to be with him, but with each individual to make their own choices. Whereas, it seems Sue Scheff "leader" of PURE does not encourage this in her entourage.
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As I understand it, the pictures allegedly taken at High Impact were of dog kennels. While these pictures may be shocking to a jury, they can also be assailed as being simply pictures of dog kennels...having nothing to do with this particular case, this particular location, this particular set of children locked in these cages. The pictures may be tremendously valuable as "circumstantial" or supplementary evidence, but they are CERTAINLY NOT earth-shattering, nor the stuff of make-it-or-break-it in a law case. Contrary to what Carey thinks, they do absolutely nothing to "PROVE" anything. The pictures are private property, belong to a former WWASP victim, and no one has the right to demand they be handed over for Carey to publish on the Internet! If she thinks her integrity and moral indignation give her the right to demand, she hasn't checked on her own integrity and morals lately.
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Spots,
I've been trying for days how to respond to this board with out the usual comments..."P.U.R.E., WWASPS, etc..."
You just summed up the whole controversy between Carey & everyone she claims is out to harm her. The picture incident; shouldn't concern anyone but the photographer & whoever owns them! That has been hard to convey to Carey...she seems to think by harassing people & posting everyone's private life, the photos will magically appear. Has anyone ever seen these so called pictures? Do they even exsist?
Then the misfortune of a staffer being raped was her next escapade...unless the victim comes forward, to my knowledge legally there has been no crime. I don't know, how one goes about explaining this to Carey? If those involved do not come forward, charges will never be filed. For someone to stalk, attack, again post personal emails, etc...Will this tactic eventually make the victim come forward? I personally do not think so, I didn't take it well when it was swept under the rug either, but I move on.
As for her beef with Sue, she should take that up with her personally. As for the Bozak character mentioned in her get even scheme, I don't have a clue as to who this person is. I do know that Joe & Amberly worked for wwasps at one time, I've never spoken to either one of them, but to badger them into submission again would be very difficult for someone once they have witnessed the wrath of Carey. It's a no holds bar match...for what HER self preservation!!!
She hasn't figured all of this out yet, just thinks she has...it's not just about HER. The old adadge; about climbing up a ladder & being careful not to damage any rungs on they way up comes to my mind!!! Thanks for the comments.
Regards,
Lee
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The picture incident; shouldn't concern anyone but the photographer & whoever owns them! That has been hard to convey to Carey...she seems to think by harassing people & posting everyone's private life, the photos will magically appear.
Why was I told about the pictures? You tell me!
Why was I told about the rape? You tell me!
Oh, you all were just passing information? Is that what the listserv is for. Do you say oh by the way, kids were in dog kennels and a girl was raped, but don't worry about...just and FYI. Is that how it works? Maybe for you but not for me. You know why those things were said to me...to get me to react. Well you got it...reaction! You are still getting it, its just not working the way you want it to anymore.
Lee, I am not badgering anyone. I am just telling everyone what I know! What I know is what I have experienced. It is not what you or anyone else has experienced and told me, it is what I have experienced. You see it is these things which you just stated, the pictures, the rape...etc etc., that are the reason why I did what I did. Were my actions justified? Yes they were, I was scared to death. Should I have been? I don't know. Are they true? I don't know?
I now have to consider the source of my information and I have to consider all that I have learned since that experience. I was caught up in panic and fear because of what I was being told. Knowing what I know now, would I have approached the situation differently? Yes, most defintly!
[ This Message was edited by: Carey on 2003-09-03 12:23 ]
[ This Message was edited by: Carey on 2003-09-03 13:29 ]
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Carey,
I received the same info you received, heard the same stories you were told. Can we agree that each of us interpreted this information differently?
If there are pictures, I?ve never seen them. If there are pictures, they don?t support my allegations towards wwasps. You?ve read my story! The pictures, if there are any, are for those individuals who posses them, in my opinion. If they wanted you to have the photos, would they not be in your possession now. I don?t have them, so whoever does have them doesn?t want me to see them either.
The rape ordeal; I believe it was posted on the list; as a staffer at what ever facility had been raped. In my opinion it?s no different that picking up any day of the weeks news paper & reading the headlines where you live or I reside. I like you was very upset & would have graciously been satisfied if charges were filed. Apparently, as both you & I know, the parent of this child assisted in the cover up like nothing ever happened. Why, hell I don?t know! Yes, I feel very bad for this child, but the sad part about it was neither you nor I could do anything to support this victimized child. That?s the hardest part to swallow!!!
I?ve never informed anyone to remove their child from any facility. I have spoken to many concerned parents & explained what my family?s concerns are with wwasps. You?ve bashed me as being a ?pure volunteer?, what ever that entails??Do you know what that even means? I don?t refer anyone to P.U.R.E. for enrollment in any school; I ain?t qualified in my opinion. Can I tell them what happen to my family though? I have sent individuals to P.U.R.E.?s website to peruse the many documents supporting many allegations. I have sent people to intrepid-reporters to review other people?s opinions other than mine. Yes, I do speak with individuals on a list serve. Yes, I do converse with Sue from time to time. How does that make me or anyone else responsible for your concerns with P.U.R.E.?
As far as any list serves; they are what they are. My perception of a list serve is people with common interests or dislike interests; discussing goals, incidents, etc? or just harmless chit chat. That?s all!!! When someone disagrees with other members so be it. When they agree, so be it. But to continue to state just YOUR opinion over & over & never let up, apparently violated your position on such a list. No one had any hard feelings for you; they just became tired of your out of control mannerisms. YOU can not blame anyone for your actions but your self. YOU had two chances & were twice removed. Imagine that; YOUR actions & words must have offended someone on the list. That?s all there is to it!!!
Regards,
Lee
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The rape ordeal; I believe it was posted on the list; as a staffer at what ever facility had been raped. In my opinion it?s no different that picking up any day of the weeks news paper & reading the headlines where you live or I reside. I like you was very upset & would have graciously been satisfied if charges were filed.
I think it is way different. My boys were being held in the place where this "incident" occured. The details were very specific.
But to continue to state just YOUR opinion over & over & never let up, apparently violated your position on such a list.
You are right. I won't let up. Ed "CONS' like Sue need to be exposed. Parents have a right to know!
Apparently, as both you & I know, the parent of this child assisted in the cover up like nothing ever happened.
Of course now, things are being told differently. According to Amberly and Martha, it didn't happen exactly as I was originally told. There was a relationship between the two parties. Who knows what really happened?
I received the same info you received, heard the same stories you were told. Can we agree that each of us interpreted this information differently?
Yes Lee, you heard the same stories I heard. The difference is, you heard the stories while your child was home safe in your care. I heard the stories while my boys were in the very place the assault and rape incident occurred. My boys were in the place where the new "high impact" was being built. I heard the stories while my boys were still incarcerated. BIG DIFFERENCE in how things are interpretated, don't ya think?
[ This Message was edited by: Carey on 2003-09-03 15:10 ]
[ This Message was edited by: Carey on 2003-09-03 15:12 ]
[ This Message was edited by: Carey on 2003-09-03 15:18 ]
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I agree Carey! BIG difference in the interpretations. And isn't that what all this class action stuff is about? One parent interprets something that another interprets in a completely different way. So the class action is based on interpretations not facts? :wink:
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anon your an idiot!! she is talking about stories, e-mails, what someone told her. the class action is about experiances, what people had to deal with, the families that were lied to, the kids that were hurt, hungry, not given medical attention, restrained for pain,that were hit, humiliated, laughed at when they cried, put in op for looking at someone, talking, smiling, itching, the class action is for justice, wwasp thought they were to big for anyone to stand up against them. someone on another thread said wwasp was getting there own big guns (attorneys) i wanted to ask who RALP ATKINS!!!
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That's quite an imagination. Sounds very much like the PURE propaganda that's posted everywhere here or should I say on their website? And I suppose all the kids there now are the product of brainwashed parents thinking it's okay to abuse their kids. You forgot to add that. :wink:
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[this thread had a subtitle of "Nailed It!". What the hell does that mean?]
Carey, like Louis XIV, you pretend like you are the Sun King, the center of the universe, the pivot around which all else revolves. You were told by someone about the HI pictures, and the Dundee rape? Like telling you was tantamount to telling J. Edgar Hoover about a meeting of communists converging into, say, Chicago? Like somebody needs to "leak" a story to you, an equal to a reporter for the New York Times or the Washington Post. Carey, you are not Woodward and Bernstein; nor are you Tim Weiner. You are a loose cannon. YOU ARE NOT VERY IMPORTANT, IN THE GREATER SCHEME OF THINGS.
My kid in Casa doesn't bring floods of informers tattling about this and that at Casa. MY ONLY PERSONAL EMAIL (you remember what personal is, don't you???) from Sue Scheff was a very nice note, very early on, giving me the contact name of another grandmother who was able to retreive her grandaughter from Casa. Simply that,"...I know of a grandmother who was able to get her grandaughter out...", which I thought was very nice. I contacted this grandmother, and found circumstances a little different, but learned from her that it took 6+ months and nearly $100K to get the girl. For this contact, I truly thank Sue Scheff. It made our burden more bearable.
You say "...ED CONS need to be exposed". Well, maybe. One man's exposed is another man's full knowledge, so one can make an informed decision depending on what works for him. IOW, SOME FOLKS WANT TO USE AN ED CON, INCLUDING SUE SCHEFF, regardless of her "credentials". It is not for you to decide. You can inform, BUT YOU CANNOT DECIDE, EXPOSE, PROSECUTE, SENTENCE, EXECUTE. If someone talks with Sue Scheff and likes her personally, likes which facilities she suggests, likes the whole concept of personal imprisonment for their children, likes to throw money into that slimy pit...that's their choice. They should not, however, be allowed to imprison their children in harmful places, and my personal opinion is that laws are the way to ensure that. [Ginger and some ex-Straights disagree, but that's just a disagreement.]
I did want to tell you that there were very neat thunder storms here in Northern California today...and that I say this because PURE told me to say that. Oh, and they also told me to breathe in and breathe out. God Damn, where would I be without them?
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What class-action-lawsuit? Sounds to me like if there is one, it's been put on the back burner, indefinitly.
:eek:
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[this thread had a subtitle of "Nailed It!". What the hell does that mean?]
Anon your asking me "what the hell does that mean?" Don't ask me, ask Lee. He is the one that subtitled this thread "Nail It." If you want to know what someone means by what they say, well then, go to the horses mouth for the answer.
If I am not very important, as you say, then don't worry about what I say. ::crybaby::
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Spots, you definitly have some issues --- not the least of which is your own daughter does not seem to give a damn what you think or how you feel about her child-rearing decisions. Why not focus all your time and energy on changing her heart and mind instead of hanging your hopes on a yet-to-be-filed class action lawsuit, a yet-to-be-made-movie, dozens of news articles, ISAC reports, even the closure of a program, all of which while promising, have not changed your situation for the better?
Second, all this "bitchin and bashin" of Carey and virtually anyone else who does not share your same point of view about Pure and it's founder is not helping "your cause" either. If you feel Scheff and the PURE people have your best interests at heart, more power to you. Let others speak their truth.
:cool:
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On 2003-08-30 09:03:00, Carey wrote:
"Subj: Confidential
Date: 2/28/03 8:23:53 PM Central Standard Time
From: SLS1262 aka Sue Scheff
To: Careycbock
I am sending you this because it yanks at my heart! The entire thread on the BBS is justifying it telling the guy their kids have been there months, years.... and not to worry he will thank you...NOT. He has only been at Dundee for about a month and a half. Use caution if you write, and always say it was just sent to you from another parent that doesn't want their name told. My God the kid is only 14!
(The above is Sue's message to me.)
****************
(Below is what someone had cut and copied from the BBS and sent it to Sue. Sue then sent the above and below to me all as one email.) Hope this helps to explain what this is all about.
Gil L.
Member
Member # 4495
posted February 26, 2003 01:20 PM I just had our call with our FR today and it was a tough one. Our son is very emotional and has been now for a couple of weeks. Boy, it sure is hard to hear that you kid is just crying all the time.
I so wish I could make it better, but the only thing I know to say to make him stop is something that we can't do (take him home) right now.
I know he is there to help with his behavior issues, but man this is hard. I sure hope it starts getting easier at some point in the future. Our FR suggested writing letters to him that call him out on his denial about why he is there, and It is hard to bring myself to do that. I want him to know, but don't want to cause him any more pain then what he is being challenged with right now in the program.
6 weeks and level 1 0 points. When does it start to get better? (I know, it starts getting better at Discovery, but that is still a month away)
I am venting more then anything, but feedback is always welcome.
--------------------
Registered for Discovery - 3/21
Son Spencer, 14 enrolled in DRA since 1/11/03
Profile for Gil L.
Member Status: Member
Member Number: 4495
Registered: January 13, 2003
Posts: 79
Email Address: g.XXXXX@verizon.net
Location: Dallas, TX
Your Full Name: Gil XXXXX
Student's ID # (Not your billing #): N/A
[ This Message was edited by: Carey on 2003-08-30 17:27 ]"
What does FR mean?
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FAMILY REP
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Why all the deletions on this thread?
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What was deleted?
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Ok. I went back and looked. Karen has edited out everything she had posted.
Why on earth would she need to take back what she had said?
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Carey - could be because I read that she was "advised" to not post here anymore. Most of what she writes doesn't come from the truth, so that tells me that she deleted her posts because she could be in some hot water legally?? Defamation is an ugly result of posting lies.
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That would make sense.
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On 2003-10-22 12:22:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Carey - could be because I read that she was "advised" to not post here anymore. Most of what she writes doesn't come from the truth, so that tells me that she deleted her posts because she could be in some hot water legally?? Defamation is an ugly result of posting lies."
Lies? Are you sure? Or true statements that are difficult to prove?
Keep close to Nature's heart... and break clear away, once in awhile, and climb a mountain or spend a week in the woods. Wash your spirit clean.
-- John Muir
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Ginger,
I don't think Karen is a liar...but, I also don't think she knows what the truth is. I think she is very easily convinced of what others tell her. I think she like a lot of other parents who chose a program such as Dundee are very, let me try to say it nicely, "gullible". What someone else feeds her, she easily accepts as truth. I think she is probably now having to back track based on that fact.
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gullible like you Cary? you must have gotten sucked into the program shit too, oryou would not have locked your children up either.
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Carey never did that. Her ex locked their sons up at Dundee without telling her, even after the fact.
After all, who wouldn't prefer Middle Earth, unless they've been corrupted by a Ring of Power?
December 24, 2002
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gullible like you Cary? you must have gotten sucked into the program shit too, oryou would not have locked your children up either.
Ginger, I don't even bother responding to comments like the one Anon made. I know that someone who makes such a remark has no clue as to what is really going on.
[ This Message was edited by: Carey on 2003-10-23 15:13 ]
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At the time of her death she was being sued by WWASPS in what some observers would call a SLAPP suit. Today there is a class action suit against WWASPS by former parents and students in this program. Donna Headrick is the architect of that suit.
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The Intrepid Trekkers http://www.intrepidnetreporters.com/Tee ... nhelp.html (http://www.intrepidnetreporters.com/TeenHelp/teenhelp.html)
ginger, another one that was right at your finger tips...trekkers was donna hendricks intrepid trekkers, nothing to do with PURE.
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I don't have every detail. But I do know and have said all along that these complaints against WWASP and many other similar programs started long before Sue ever sent her daughter to CSA.
That the class action is is all about PURE is pure fantasy that WWASP would like parents to believe. But even a quick and dirty glance around the net and mainstream news sources and/or past court cases will show that WWASP has created a huge pool of potential plaintiffs. PURE doesn't even do as good a job of describing the abuse because they actually support and promote some of the same abusive practices.
So, from WWASP's point of view, they're a tempting straw man. They can tell the judge and jury that PURE made up all these "lies" just to steal business from them, out-lawyer them so they can't prove the truth and tell their followers "See, it was all just a pack of lies".
But that won't solve the problem of all these kids, now college age and older, who are finding all these discussions in public forums that are springing up all over the wilds of Cyberia in response to the NYT and London Guardian coverage.
That's why I think that, in the end, the whole industry is going to lose out in this arena. The net responds to censorship like damage and routes around it. The Program absolutely depends on a high degree of information control. It just can't compete in a free market of ideas.Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its
best state is but a necessary evil ---in its worst state an
intolerable one; for when we suffer, or are exposed to the same
miseries by a government, which we might expect in a country without
government, our calamities is heightened by reflecting that we
furnish the means by which we suffer!
Thomas Paine, Common Sense
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You're one to talk about telling the truth. :lol:
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:question: :question: :question:
You know, if Mama Cass Elliot would have shared that damn sandwich
with Karen Carpenter, they would both still be alive today!!!!!!!
--chongo
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On 2003-09-04 22:21:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2003-08-30 09:03:00, Carey wrote:
"Subj: Confidential
Date: 2/28/03 8:23:53 PM Central Standard Time
From: SLS1262 aka Sue Scheff
To: Careycbock
I am sending you this because it yanks at my heart! The entire thread on the BBS is justifying it telling the guy their kids have been there months, years.... and not to worry he will thank you...NOT. He has only been at Dundee for about a month and a half. Use caution if you write, and always say it was just sent to you from another parent that doesn't want their name told. My God the kid is only 14!
(The above is Sue's message to me.)
****************
(Below is what someone had cut and copied from the BBS and sent it to Sue. Sue then sent the above and below to me all as one email.) Hope this helps to explain what this is all about.
Gil L.
Member
Member # 4495
posted February 26, 2003 01:20 PM I just had our call with our FR today and it was a tough one. Our son is very emotional and has been now for a couple of weeks. Boy, it sure is hard to hear that you kid is just crying all the time.
I so wish I could make it better, but the only thing I know to say to make him stop is something that we can't do (take him home) right now.
I know he is there to help with his behavior issues, but man this is hard. I sure hope it starts getting easier at some point in the future. Our FR suggested writing letters to him that call him out on his denial about why he is there, and It is hard to bring myself to do that. I want him to know, but don't want to cause him any more pain then what he is being challenged with right now in the program.
6 weeks and level 1 0 points. When does it start to get better? (I know, it starts getting better at Discovery, but that is still a month away)
I am venting more then anything, but feedback is always welcome.
--------------------
Registered for Discovery - 3/21
Son Spencer, 14 enrolled in DRA since 1/11/03
Profile for Gil L.
Member Status: Member
Member Number: 4495
Registered: January 13, 2003
Posts: 79
Email Address: g.XXXXX@verizon.net
Location: Dallas, TX
Your Full Name: Gil XXXXX
Student's ID # (Not your billing #): N/A
[ This Message was edited by: Carey on 2003-08-30 17:27 ]"
What does FR mean?
"
Bump ....
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On 2003-08-30 11:00:00, Carey wrote:
"Subj: Re: [Trekkers] From DT's Board-To Charlotte and all
Date: 10/20/02 8:42:18 PM Central Daylight Time
From:
Reply-to: intrepid-l@fully-baked.org (http://mailto:intrepid-l@fully-baked.org)
Sent from the Internet (Details)
Charlotte and all,
I have been in touch with Deborah Thomas (DT). I am not 100% on her mission, and Donna H. and I felt she was all over the map, with an agenda that is not exactly clear. She is at times, very anti all programs, when in fact some children really do need help. Just the right help. And then she can go into the medication, school districts and other issues of discern "to her." I am glad Jeff is there monitoring it for us, just in case they do get some good information for us.
The fact that she has both Barbe Stampe and Alexia Parks (both woman that Donna H. had a bad taste for, with good reason) on her board, makes me wonder. I am not sure who you are sending Phil's diary to, but please let me know first. I don't want it to end up in the wrong hands. Some people are in this for monetary reasons, while we are here for the children. That is the difference in a nutshell.
Sue "
And the beat goes on ...
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Here are some of the documents referenced in that docket.
http://fornits.com/anonanon/docs/wwasp/WvPURE/ (http://fornits.com/anonanon/docs/wwasp/WvPURE/)
The original complaint is there along with an update adding defendants (none of whom appear to be the same folks allegedly harmed by disclosed emails, but different people entirely) It also lists SOME of the schools to which PURE refers children. Don't know much about any of them yet, except for Skyline Journey, and Lee Ann claims that they never got a referal from PURE or Sue, so who the hell knows?
Wicked men obey from fear, good men from love.
--Aristotle
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(none of whom appear to be the same folks allegedly harmed by disclosed emails, but different people entirely)
Ginger,
Your a smart gal; you can figure out that the document in question is what you might call a living document, and therefor subject to being updated and changed.
However, there may be some good news and the fall out from the bock bomb may blow away on the wind.
We shall see what we shall see.
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That was directed at Carey, not you Ginger...look at the Sub Topic. It indicates that the response was to her, not you.
Love ya Carey, you slippery bitch!
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Frog, what did I lie about?
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How many times to I have to ask you the SAME question - why did you sell out to WWASP? God, I'm really getting beyond the point of caring anymore...if you would just come clean, we'd all shut up. I may shut up anyway, because I'm so tired of all this crap.
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You're one to talk about telling the truth.
Frog, this was your post.
What did I lie about?
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By lying I mean that you're not telling us everything. You're more slippery than Bill Clinton. "That depends on what your definition of "is" is..." I guess I have to spell it out AGAIN for you...
Why did you sell out to WWASP?
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Frodick - Get a grip.
:smokin:
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Frog,
It's not that difficult to understand why Carey gave,maybe sold trekkers emails to WWASP attorneys.
Last year when she was struggling with her sons situation at Dundee,the following court dates between the boys ex husband etc.
Carey blames trekkers for not providing the rape,dundee info.It was not theirs to share.Trekkers were willing and able to go to court with Carey to share their stories.Carey never asked. Carey is not a team player. Hence the situation was hectic.The boys were stoned in court and so on.
Carey please fill in the blanks.
Because Carey was asked to leave trekkers she got mad . Really vengeful,hate kind of mad. Instead of being accountable for her personal problems she transferred her anger ,frustration,lack of accountabilty to others.
Her singular slander against Pure, Sue S can attest to that fact.
If Carey cared about boarding schools ,programs and such she would attack,slander many, many others, oppose to the one she has been maliciously slandering for months and months and months.
Carey giving thousands of emails to wwasp attorneys is about personal vendetta.
Nothing more nothing less.
The speel about "information" is self serving to justify her malicious actions.
It will come back to bite her in the ass.
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Honestly, I hope it does just blow over.
I don't really think PURE is significantly different or better than WWASP. But I think they're sincere in believing that they are and so are their supporters. Time will tell.
If there's truth to the more serious allegation against Carey, I think she'll regret that action if she doesn't already. Not for bringing the truth out about PURE but for the civilian casualties.
Trouble is, most of us talking about it just don't have all the facts and we won't till the litigation is all over.
So don't jump the gun, k? Better to miss your boat and find another way than to jump too soon onto the wrong one headed somewhere you don't want to go. Know what I mean?Being a street cop, witnessing the tragedy firsthand, I've become
convinced that drug prohibition -- not drugs themselves -- are driving the HIV epidemic and the systemic crime that has swamped our criminal justice systems.
--Vancouver Police Const. Gil Puder
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Truth is, I was exploited by PURE, Bozak and Trekkers. I was used by them, not helped by them. I bought into what they professed. It took me a while to see that what they were doing was no different than what they were accusing others of doing.
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LIE'S, LIE'S, LIE'S Carey!!!! All Lie's You were never exploited by anyone! You asked for help and you were given help. You were tossed out of trekkers on your ass because you were like a time bomb ready to go off and you could not be TRUSTED. So you started spouting BS about being exploited......You weren't allowed on the ISAC board and what do you do? You come on here and start bashing on ISAC ::crybaby:: . Doesn't anyone see a pattern here? If Carey can't play, she starts having a temper tantrum. ::deal::
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Carey,
You ASS.
FYI I recently (again) spoke with Gil from this post .He and his son are doing very well. He truly appreciated my honesting in sharing our wwasp experience. It just so happened Dundee closed shortly thereafter.He was able to make an informed decision on his family's behalf.
The boy did not go to TB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
What is your point? You are OUT THERE!
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What about this preliminary injunction against PURE that is part of the court record? Got an opinion on that, Froderick, or are you too busy playing judge, jury and executioner in your own little kangeroo court?
http://fornits.com/anonanon/docs/wwasp/WvPURE/ (http://fornits.com/anonanon/docs/wwasp/WvPURE/)
Harold Hill: A man can't turn tail and run just because a little personal risk is involved. What did Shakespeare say? "Cowards die a thousand deaths, the brave man... only 500"?
:flame:
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OLD NEWS! Find something else to sing about. This is not a CAREY VS. PURE issue....it's a Carey VS. Sue issue and Carey can't give it a rest.
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On 2003-11-17 07:51:00, Anonymous wrote:
"LIE'S, LIE'S, LIE'S Carey!!!! All Lie's You were never exploited by anyone! You asked for help and you were given help. You were tossed out of trekkers on your ass because you were like a time bomb ready to go off and you could not be TRUSTED. So you started spouting BS about being exploited......You weren't allowed on the ISAC board and what do you do? You come on here and start bashing on ISAC ::crybaby:: . Doesn't anyone see a pattern here? If Carey can't play, she starts having a temper tantrum. ::puke::
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On 2003-11-17 08:22:00, Anonymous wrote:
"OLD NEWS! Find something else to sing about. This is not a CAREY VS. PURE issue....it's a Carey VS. Sue issue and Carey can't give it a rest."
OLD NEWS? I don't think so and neither do you, why else would you try to divert attention away from something that is anything but OLD NEWS?
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On 2003-11-17 08:17:00, Anonymous wrote:
"What about this preliminary injunction against PURE that is part of the court record? Got an opinion on that, Froderick, or are you too busy playing judge, jury and executioner in your own little kangeroo court?
http://fornits.com/anonanon/docs/wwasp/WvPURE/ (http://fornits.com/anonanon/docs/wwasp/WvPURE/)
What the fuck does this have to do with PURE? What are you trying to say? All I know is that Carey sold out to WWASP for some reason and still refuses to come clean as to WHY. Sorry asswipe, but this rubs me the wrong way. Stop trying to muddy the waters. And, who the fuck are you anyway? What organization are you with? I'm with no goddamn org. All I want is to put an end to this distracting pile of shit stinking up this board for far too long... I'm not gonna read all that shit about pure. I could give a NY rat's ass about all that. I don't want to keep repeating myself...it's not so hard to understand. So go fuck yourself, you anonymous asshole. :flame:
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So that's what this is about, M.O.N.E.Y. disguised as a fight for justice. Gee, maybe you will win and then what? You can sue ALL your critics and promote yourself as a modern day saint? Well I got news for you pal. Kicking somebody off a private listserve because of a power-struggle is not heroic or saintly. It was downright stupid as evident by what's been going on on this public forum for months. You reap what you sow ...
Read into it what you want you fucking moron! I don't think anyone has tried to portray themselves as saints. There was no powerplay involved.....Get this through your thick skull....she could not be "TRUSTED" with valuable information! What's so damned hard about that?
And Gee, NO it's not about M.O.N.E.Y, it's about making the bitch accountable for the pain she has inflicted on innocent people and hindering the process of the release of thousands of kids from abusive facilities. Put that in your pipe and smoke it you fucking crack head. :smokin:
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Ignorance is bliss, eh Frodick? Go on now, throw some more grease on the fire before another intelligent mind figures out your M.O.
:silly:
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Ok, whoever you are...you just want to keep the flames going, don't you? What about the fact that Carey won't come clean? No comments on that, dumbass? Surely an "intelligent mind" would have a little more to say than you do, shithead! ::bangin::
[ This Message was edited by: Froderik13 on 2003-11-17 10:16 ]
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On 2003-11-17 09:54:00, Anonymous wrote:
"So that's what this is about, M.O.N.E.Y. disguised as a fight for justice. Gee, maybe you will win and then what? You can sue ALL your critics and promote yourself as a modern day saint? Well I got news for you pal. Kicking somebody off a private listserve because of a power-struggle is not heroic or saintly. It was downright stupid as evident by what's been going on on this public forum for months. You reap what you sow ...
Read into it what you want you fucking moron! I don't think anyone has tried to portray themselves as saints. There was no powerplay involved.....Get this through your thick skull....she could not be "TRUSTED" with valuable information! What's so damned hard about that?
And Gee, NO it's not about M.O.N.E.Y, it's about making the bitch accountable for the pain she has inflicted on innocent people and hindering the process of the release of thousands of kids from abusive facilities. Put that in your pipe and smoke it you fucking crack head. :smokin: "
Oh so it's a T.R.U.S.T. issue? Well, if ya'll thought she was so untrustworthy, maybe instead of cutting her loose to inflict pain upon innocent people, you should have found a way to keep her onboard for the sake of the greater good?
DUH!!!!
:wave:
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Oh so it's a T.R.U.S.T. issue? Well, if ya'll thought she was so untrustworthy, maybe instead of cutting her loose to inflict pain upon innocent people, you should have found a way to keep her onboard for the sake of the greater good?
DUH!!!!
You are too stupid to deserve an answer. :wstupid:
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On 2003-11-17 10:31:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Oh so it's a T.R.U.S.T. issue? Well, if ya'll thought she was so untrustworthy, maybe instead of cutting her loose to inflict pain upon innocent people, you should have found a way to keep her onboard for the sake of the greater good?
DUH!!!!
You are too stupid to deserve an answer. :wstupid: "
Nah, just a bigger wise-ass than you know how to deal with.
:smokin:
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If that's what you think "wise-ass" Your stupidity boggles the mere mortal mind. Which rock did you crawl out from and what's your stake in this game? :wstupid:
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Its been said:
Well, if ya'll thought she was so untrustworthy, maybe instead of cutting her loose to inflict pain upon innocent people, you should have found a way to keep her onboard for the sake of the greater good?
I have actually thought about this. I have wished something along these lines had been possiable; but it wasn't. You've seen how she is. She just will not stop. She can't believe she could possibly be wrong or that something in her head might not be true; and when she gets stuck in gear there is no putting on the brakes.
This is a poisen person we are talking about. No way to interact with her and not be made sick at some point.
When you get sick enough; you vomit her out and try and clean up the mess.
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Here's my problem with all of this.
No evidence. I haven't seen Carey act the way you say she is. I've seen you guys say all kinds of outrageous things about her. But I haven't actually seen her do any of this stuff.
Now, maybe if ya'll had not completely destroyed your credibility with me with all the attacks thinly disguised as psycho-babble and all the outright slander and vindictiveness, well then maybe I'd figure you're sane, credible people and probably know what you're talking about.
But that still doesn't change the fact that the best way to respond to someone who's betrayed a trust is to not trust them. That's not what you people have done, not at all! Instead, you've come over here, sucked up gigs of bandwidth and untold hours of people's time trying to convince everybody that this woman is to be hated and abused with impunity.
Sorry, not buying any today. Nor tomorrow or probably ever.
Unfortunately, your efforts have been quite effective. It's damned near impossible to have any kind of meaningful discussion about anything without you crack-heads pissing everyone off with your vindictive bullshit.
Thanks for sharing your opinion. But I really don't need you or anyone else to tell me what to think about anyone or anything. I'll draw my own conclusions. If that pisses you off, well have another Prozac and relax. This method has worked a whole lot better for me over the years than joining the angry mob in attacking someone else's perceived enemy. So I plan to keep doing it.
Someone very calm, patient and intelligent suggested that both factions set up a web page laying out your respective positions and, whenever the topic comes up, refer the newbies to those prepared pages.
I think that's good advice. I hope you'll follow it. Just let me know and I'll add the new questions to the FAQ page.
Our Constitution is in actual operation; everything appears to promise that it will last; but in this world nothing is certain but death and taxes.
Ben Franklin Letter to M. Leroy, 1789.
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Anyone who disagrees with you is wrong. No one else is allowed to "consume bandwith" to argue a point. You may be glad to hear that I (for one) am about DONE with this Carey bullshit now anyway... :smokin:
[ This Message was edited by: Froderik13 on 2003-11-17 18:24 ]
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You may be glad to hear that I (for one) am about DONE with this Carey bullshit now anyway...
Christ...I guess I spoke too soon. Oh well...
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On 2003-09-03 15:09:00, Carey wrote:
"The rape ordeal; I believe it was posted on the list; as a staffer at what ever facility had been raped. In my opinion it?s no different that picking up any day of the weeks news paper & reading the headlines where you live or I reside. I like you was very upset & would have graciously been satisfied if charges were filed.
I think it is way different. My boys were being held in the place where this "incident" occured. The details were very specific.
But to continue to state just YOUR opinion over & over & never let up, apparently violated your position on such a list.
You are right. I won't let up. Ed "CONS' like Sue need to be exposed. Parents have a right to know!
Apparently, as both you & I know, the parent of this child assisted in the cover up like nothing ever happened.
Of course now, things are being told differently. According to Amberly and Martha, it didn't happen exactly as I was originally told. There was a relationship between the two parties. Who knows what really happened?
I received the same info you received, heard the same stories you were told. Can we agree that each of us interpreted this information differently?
Yes Lee, you heard the same stories I heard. The difference is, you heard the stories while your child was home safe in your care. I heard the stories while my boys were in the very place the assault and rape incident occurred. My boys were in the place where the new "high impact" was being built. I heard the stories while my boys were still incarcerated. BIG DIFFERENCE in how things are interpretated, don't ya think?
[ This Message was edited by: Carey on 2003-09-03 15:10 ]
[ This Message was edited by: Carey on 2003-09-03 15:12 ]
[ This Message was edited by: Carey on 2003-09-03 15:18 ]"
Sounds to me like Carey very much deserves empathy, not hatred. What parent would not be frightened (read scared shitless) by the things these people were telling her about the very place her 2 boys had been sent to by her ex? Froderick and the other anons who have attacked Carey without mercy are just plain mean-spirited, not misguided.
I hope Carey and her boys are doing well, and that the coming holidays are the best ever! Same to Su Flowers and her family!
Peace,
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Gosh I'm sorry...I guess we were wrong about her all along. Nevermind that she won't tell us why she sold out to WWASP when asked about it time and time again. You didn't nail shit.
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Frauderick, you are a hypocrite. How many times has Ginger asked Sheff (or one of her supporters) to tell her the names of the programs she refers kids to? Did she or anyone ever answer? Hell no. Ginger had to find the answer to her question in a court document.
:flame:
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So what. Two wrongs don't make a right.
(That's not the point.) :skull:
[ This Message was edited by: Froderik13 on 2003-11-18 08:33 ]
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Frauderick, you are a Frod. Of course 2 wrongs do not make a right. That isn't the issue. The issue is you have led a smear campaign for no better purpose than to direct attention away from the transgressions of certain other people, maybe even yourself, for all anybody knows.
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Piss off. I'm not with any org, as I have stated prior to this. :wave:
[ This Message was edited by: Froderik13 on 2003-11-18 09:15 ]
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OK, you're not with any org. Neither am I. I don't even belong to a political party, church or PAC of any kind. My only formal membership is in Clan Warbis. That's how I like it.
As to the burning indictment in question, I've told you several times in several venues exactly why I have my doubts. You believe it, I reserve judgement. Unless and until some new info surfaces, I don't forsee changing my position. You get a MUCH better view from the fence, especially when the fence seperates two packs of hungry junkyard dogs.
So let's just drop this question for now. OK?
You asked two other, more relavent and interesting questions a couple of days ago.
The questions were "Couldn't PURE be seen at least as the "lesser of two evils?" and "
If not PURE, then what would you propose be done to get these kids out of the clutches of their duped parents and WWASP?"
I put a lot of time and though into my answer. But you abandoned that conversation and fell back to "Carey is a __________".
Here's the thread.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=10#25256 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=3459&forum=9&start=10#25256)
Can we talk get back to this and talk about what we actually know?Everybody's lost just waiting to be found. Everyone's a thought just waiting to fade.
-- Billy Corgan of The Smashing Pumpkins
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Sure, let's talk about something else. But, my response was to anon - not to you Ginger.. unless that WAS you..(?)
[ This Message was edited by: Froderik13 on 2003-11-18 10:47 ]
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Sorry, I thought we were all talking together about the same thing?
Anyway, as to the lesser of two evils and other alternatives, I put my heart into answering those questions. Any thoughts?If life were fair, Dan Quayle would be making a living asking 'Do you want fries with that?'
John Cleese
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http://teenliberty.org/RMA.htm (http://teenliberty.org/RMA.htm)
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On 2003-11-18 10:59:00, Antigen wrote:
"Sorry, I thought we were all talking together about the same thing?
Anyway, as to the lesser of two evils and other alternatives, I put my heart into answering those questions. Any thoughts?If life were fair, Dan Quayle would be making a living asking 'Do you want fries with that?'
John Cleese
"
Ginger, would you please re-post your response to those questions? I've looked around a bit but must have overlooked your original post.
Thanks!
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Sure, here it is
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=10#25256 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=3459&forum=9&start=10#25256)The right of self-defense is the first law of nature . . and when the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any color or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction.
--St. George Tucker, in his edition of Blackstone's Commentaries
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Sorry, I thought we were all talking together about the same thing?
Anyway, as to the lesser of two evils and other alternatives, I put my heart into answering those questions. Any thoughts?
Sorry, but I was addressing this (what's quoted below.) I don't see how this was talking about the same thing at all. I had to respond to this jerk, and I doubt that you or anyone would blame me. Anyway, that was a good post about the old Seed. Very eloquent, and I liked reading it, except for the part talking about you-know-who. We may never agree on that subject, but oh well, whatever. It's high time to move on from that subject anyway...
Frauderick, you are a Frod. Of course 2 wrongs do not make a right. That isn't the issue. The issue is you have led a smear campaign for no better purpose than to direct attention away from the transgressions of certain other people, maybe even yourself, for all anybody knows.
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frod...ask your favorite person when she is going to utah next?
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On 2003-11-18 20:12:00, Froderik13 wrote:
"Sorry, but I was addressing this (what's quoted below.)
Why? It was an obvious canard (troll).
Thanks for the compliment.
Froderick couldn't possibly be the ringleader here. This started back in May and he was asking for the basic plot line just a few weeks ago.
And, btw, the class action isn't about PURE either (a nod back to the topic line). If there is a class action to be filed, the seeds of that were planted long before Sue ever got involved with WWASP.
So do you see what I see about PURE looking, walking and smelling a whole lot like just another incarnation? It doesn't look like the lesser or two evils to me at all. It looks like the same shit with a new label.
Don't sweat the
- Petty Things
Don't pet the
- Sweaty Things
Water what you want to grow.
--Curiosity
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Start at the beginning, it is worth the reading. I think it tells us a little more of Bock's side of the story.