Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Anonymous on September 19, 2009, 08:32:57 PM
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Crack addict says Minnesota Teen Challenge saved her life
It’s not too often that someone is grateful for being arrested. Nikol Foss was. If the police hadn’t pulled her over, searched her car and arrested her, she would probably be dead.
ALEXANDRIA — It’s not too often that someone is grateful for being arrested. Nikol Foss was.
If the police hadn’t pulled her over, searched her car and arrested her, she would probably be dead. That one fateful evening was the beginning of the end of a lifetime of drug addiction.
Starting early
When Foss was 7 years old, her babysitter got her stoned for the first time. By age 12 she had it in her head that she didn’t matter. She didn’t fit in and she knew she “wasn’t the same as everybody else.” So she started making bad decisions – like smoking cigarettes and “reefer.”
“By the time I was 13 I was a full-blown addict,” said Foss, a Carlos resident.
Foss graduated from Jefferson High School in Alexandria but took off as soon as she could for the Twin Cities. She hung out with the wrong people, worked one dead end job after another, and progressed from marijuana and drinking to cocaine.
By age 19 she was a crack cocaine addict. From snorting cocaine she progressed to snorting meth. The snorting caused her nose to bleed at the slightest touch, so she ate the meth instead. When she felt it eating away at her stomach she smoked it. Breathing became difficult and she started “coughing up black stuff” so she started injecting it into her veins.
“I progressed from one way to another,” she recalled. “I was doing it every day all day. I knew I was out of control. The sick part about it is you think you are OK to a point. You really believe ‘I’m not as bad as so-and-so.’ But you get to be ‘so-and-so.’ ”
All her money was going toward drugs instead of food. She would go three or four days without food. She had blisters in her mouth and her jaw couldn’t even move to chew.
“It became consuming and kept getting worse and worse,” she said.
For about four years, thoughts of suicide were never far from her mind. After almost 15 years of addiction she decided to quit.
It lasted two months – the longest she had been clean since she was 12 years old. With her new resolve to stay clean, her drug-addict friends disappeared and she was alone. Thinking that a life of drugs was better than a life of loneliness, she soon fell right back into her old habits.
I’m going to the bar
Even after years of blatant drug use, Foss had never been caught. That changed on August 21, 2004.
She was on her way to a bar with a friend who had a warrant out for his arrest. A police officer pulled her over – and there were drugs in the car.
“I dropped them on the floor between my feet,” she recalled. “I was putting on my mascara, because he’s going to jail, I’m not. I’m going to the bar!”
Because of the warrant, the officers informed Foss that they were going to search her car.
“They asked me if they were going to find anything,” Foss said. “I told them yes.”
Although she was “messed up,” Foss knew that this was the moment she had been waiting for. She knew it could be her chance to finally escape her sordid life of drugs. It was a relief when the officer told her she was going to jail.
“I was desperate for help,” she said. “When he said I was going to jail, I said thank you to the cop.”
Foss pleaded guilty and was given two years of probation but no jail time. She was also ordered to undergo treatment. Even while on probation, she continued her drug use.
“I would go to probation meetings high,” she said, knowing her drug use would soon come to an end in treatment. “I had two months and I did my best to do every drug I could get my hands on.”
The truth
When Foss began her search for a treatment program, her probation officer suggested Minnesota Teen Challenge (MnTC), a faith-based residential drug and alcohol program that serves teens and adults from all ethnic, socioeconomic and religious backgrounds. But she wanted nothing to do with God so she refused.
Finding a program was not an easy task. She had no health insurance and she resided in a county that would only pay for outpatient treatment.
At a meeting with county officials, she lifted up her sleeves and started sobbing.
“The tracks were here and here and here,” she said as she pointed to where she used to inject drugs. “I’m dying and you are going to give me outpatient treatment?”
They relented and so did she. Foss agreed, skeptically, to go to MnTC.
When she arrived on November 2, 2004 for her year-long treatment, she was in rough shape. Her 5’10” frame carried only 115 pounds. Every bone in her body protruded. She picked at her face, arms, hands and fingers. She was terrified that she couldn’t live without drugs. She was cynical and suspicious.
“I was going to be tough,” she said. “I wasn’t going to let Jesus into my life, but I’d take the treatment.”
That mindset lasted 10 days.
“I decided that if I accepted Jesus, it was going to be better, so I accepted Jesus,” she said. “I was happy immediately.”
Foss complied with the rules of the program and her life began to turn around. She attended Bible study and listened only to Christian radio. She cut ties with all the bad influences in her former life. And she thrived on what the program provided – affirmation.
“They make you feel like you matter and that you are worth something,” she said. “If anybody believes they don’t matter, that’s a lie. They have to know that. Teen Challenge is a pivotal part of my life. It gave me hope, it told me the truth.”
A life she never imagined
Foss left MnTC in November 2005 a changed person. She moved in with her grandmother in Long Prairie and got a job. She took a keyboarding course at Alexandria Technical College (ATC). She attended Bible study and talked to God on a frequent basis.
And then she met her future husband, Mark, at a coffee shop – a place he had never been before and a place where she usually only went to the drive through. She insists that on that day, God told her to go in.
They married 10 months later.
Foss attended the finance and credit management program at ATC and graduated June 2008 with straight As. She now has a part-time job at Neighborhood National Bank in Alexandria. She goes to church and Bible study. She is a volunteer at Miracle Horse Riders.
It’s a life she never would imagine she would be living – drug-free and filled with hope. She credits MnTC with saving her life.
“Without Teen Challenge I would have died. If not from an overdose, I would have killed myself,” she concluded. “I thank God every day. I have a house in the country. I’m canning fruits and vegetables. I have good friends. I volunteer my time.
“It’s the best life I could ever have hoped for.”
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link?
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Crack addict says Minnesota Teen Challenge saved her life
It’s not too often that someone is grateful for being arrested. Nikol Foss was. If the police hadn’t pulled her over, searched her car and arrested her, she would probably be dead.
Classic case of DEADINSANEORINJAIL brainwashing.
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You really think this person was brainwashed? It sounds accurate to me. as someone who had a close family member die of a drug overdose I know that it's a reality many of us are forced to live with
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Registered Sex offender and Teen Challenge Maine leader, Shondi Fabiano
http://www.nsopw.gov/Core/Conditions.aspx (http://www.nsopw.gov/Core/Conditions.aspx)
Individual Profile
Shondi Daria Fabiano
Date of Birth: 10/27/1973
Residence: Litchfield ME, 04350
Address last verified on: 04/06/2009
Place of employment: Teen Challenge
Employment Location:
11 Hudson Lane
Winthrop, ME 04346
SORA #: 4690
Out of State Sentencing
Statute: Sexual Assault In 3rd Degree
Court: Kent County Court
Docket #: K1-1996-0384A
Statute: 2nd Degree Child Molestation
Court: Kent County Court
Docket #: K1-1996-0384A
http://www.teenchallengeexposed.com/index.html (http://www.teenchallengeexposed.com/index.html)
http://www.teenchallengeexposed.com/suicide.html (http://www.teenchallengeexposed.com/suicide.html)
Sanford, Fla. Teen Challenge Scam Exposed!
Action 9 reporter Todd Ulrich in Orlando, Fla. uncovered an unlicensed telemarketing operation at the Sanford TC. Men convicted of financial crimes took customers' credit card information over the phone. They were paid 33 cents a day for a 40-hour work week. They were instructed to lie to potential customers about timeshare vacations from the "Disney Planning Center Resort." Further investigation revealed that the timeshare company has no relationship to Disney. Sanford Teen Challenge director Wayne Gray resigned in the wake of the scandal, and then fled when approached by Todd Ulrich for a follow-up story. Florida's Division of Consumer Services, which regulates telemarketing, is continuing its investigation
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You really think this person was brainwashed? It sounds accurate to me. as someone who had a close family member die of a drug overdose I know that it's a reality many of us are forced to live with
ever heard of self-fulfilling prophecy?
or how about parental responsibility?
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the problem with the whole "if it wasnt for the program i'd be deadinsaneorinjail" brainwashing is this:
Programs teach total abstinence, not responsibility and moderation. Fact is, people who have done drugs in the past, especially addicts, will more than likely do them again in the future. they will "relapse". AA and programs dont teach people responsibility and moderation, and instead drill into people's heads that when you relapse, you relapse BAD (like the classic "i was sober for ten years, then i had a glass of wine and woke up in a park three days later" story). Relapses dont have to be bad. drug use in general...if moderated and done responsibly...is not bad either. When you teach someone that if it wasnt for the program...deadinsaneorinjail....they expect that when they do relapse they will be deadinsaneorinjail...and then the self-fulfilling prophecy is fulfilled and they end up...you guessed it...deadinsaneorinjail.
and there is a caveat too: according to programs, insanity is repeating the same thing over and over expecting different results. After struggling to develop a viable electric light-bulb for months and months, Thomas Edison was interviewed by a young reporter who boldly asked Mr. Edison if he felt like a failure and if he thought he should just give up by now. Perplexed, Edison replied, "Young man, why would I feel like a failure? And why would I ever give up? I now know definitively over 9,000 ways that an electric light bulb will not work. Success is almost in my grasp." And shortly after that, and over 10,000 attempts, Edison invented the light bulb.
Insanity, essentially, is thinking in any way that goes against the program's belief system. So "Deadinsaneorinjail" subconciously predisposes an individual to believe that Insanity (thinking against the program) is equal to being dead or in jail, therefore only through sanity (conforming to established thought-principles) does one stay alive and out of jail.
Where there is a will, there is a way. moderating drug use is all about willpower, and the AA/NA idea that addiction is a disease only treatable through self-sacrifice to a higher power is absolutely ridiculous to say the least. Addiction is not a disease, it's a habit run out of control, and it's something that's very controllable. I have to give a big :twofinger: to anyone who thinks otherwise.
Before my program, i only smoked weed. to make a long story short, after i left the program I decided that since i'm smoking weed again, i might as well try coke and oxy and meth and any other drug i could get my hands on....because drugs are all the same and drugs are all bad, right? i'm not doing anything worse than weed by snorting coke, right? it's because I'm already relapsed, why not just have fun? i'm already headed to death or jail, right? might as well enjoy myself... one thing led to another, and i found myself heavily addicted to various forms of speedballing (combining any stimulant like coke, meth, adderall, ritalin, with any opiate like heroin, oxycontin or hydromorphone). I overdosed once, and after that i decided to quit cold turkey. i sat in bed for a month smoking weed to take the edge off. Dispite the fact that i was craving the stuff like mad, i swore not to touch it. I didnt...for a while. I stayed clean (other than with marijuana) for a year, and then the oprotunity came up again to do a speedball...and i did. But you know what? i just did a tiny bit, and the memories of how bad i got in the past prevented me from doing any more. I still do it from time to time, but in small doses just to remind myself of what it was like...and that's it. In order to do this, i had to completely shed my brainwashing, the whole deadinsaneorinjail AA/NA mentality. I've been healthy and happy ever since. so what i smoke weed and do an occasional line? i'm not even a regular user, i'm responsible and i function perfectly...and i am someone who was considered a hopeless lifer drug addict by the programmies because i had a minor issue with marijuana when i was 15, and I was considered a full-fledged junkie at 17 after my program. Everyone thought i was going to be one of those guys on methadone wandering the street if i didnt get into meetings then. I got clean on my own, and now i'm one of those guys with a big house, three kids, gorgeous wife, and a job i love that pays very generously.
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I hear ya'! I have a daughter who was never in a TBS or AA or anything who developed an opiate habit. I don't believe in the disease theory but I do know that a true addiction is a medical issue and should be treated as one. For instance getting methodone to cope with an opiate habit is a very demeaning, debasing experience. People are forced to line up in a public place where people can drive by and see all the "junkies". Then the clinic people treat you like shit and tell you you have to take methadone the rest of your life and give the old deadinsaneorinjail speeches. They treat you with contempt. Because they want you to believe you will need it forever they won't help you titrate your dosage so you can get off of it. A person should be able to get a script from their doctor and have it filled in privacy and be treated with respect. My daughter had to titrate her own dosage down to zero but she did it. Today she is healthy, happy, employed, pursuing creative interests and enjoying life. It can be done; you just have to see past the bullshit. If she had to do a "program" or be in AA I am sure she would have had a much harder time quiting.
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I hear ya'! I have a daughter who was never in a TBS or AA or anything who developed an opiate habit. I don't believe in the disease theory but I do know that a true addiction is a medical issue and should be treated as one. For instance getting methodone to cope with an opiate habit is a very demeaning, debasing experience. People are forced to line up in a public place where people can drive by and see all the "junkies". Then the clinic people treat you like shit and tell you you have to take methadone the rest of your life and give the old deadinsaneorinjail speeches. They treat you with contempt. Because they want you to believe you will need it forever they won't help you titrate your dosage so you can get off of it. A person should be able to get a script from their doctor and have it filled in privacy and be treated with respect. My daughter had to titrate her own dosage down to zero but she did it. Today she is healthy, happy, employed, pursuing creative interests and enjoying life. It can be done; you just have to see past the bullshit. If she had to do a "program" or be in AA I am sure she would have had a much harder time quiting.
EXACTLY! it's all about shame and dehumanization. Unfortunately, Drug use - any use of certain drugs - is a "shameful" act by social standards across the globe. When someone is shamed for doing something that is a perfectly natural, normal, human desire; they begin to feel worthless. The desire to augment conciousness is as normal as the desire for food. different people find different ways of augmenting consciousness - some healthy, such as excersize, sex, meditation, social discourse; and some not, through drugs. society and families when shaming someone, dehumanize them. This robs people of self-esteem and self-worth and only pushes people deeper down the downward spiral because a lack of self-worth equals a lack of motivation and willpower to be a functional member of society. This dehumanization, combined with other factors such as absentee parents and the inevitable teen rebellion, is a recipe for disaster. This is why the girl in the article became who she was, and the "program" only perpetuated the same thing.
To for the rehabilitation of society, to eliminate the need for such programs (and overcrowded jails) there has to be first of all, a defined limit recognized by both the government, health authorities, and society, between drug USE and drug ABUSE for ANY drug. The principle that drug users are lesser people must be eliminated from the people's worldview - they must be recognized as people with a medical condition, not dangerous satan-worshipping lunatics [which will be difficult, given America's puritanical mindset]. Then first and foremost PARENTS must begin to teach their kids the difference between responsible recreational, medical, or spirtitual use of drugs .vs. drug abuse. Simple drug use should be considered acceptable, while drug abuse should be treated as a medical issue.
this has been discussed on the board before, but i want to bring up this example again:
Cultures and individual families who support responsible drinking in children from early teen hood onwards have much, much lower rates of alcoholism than cultures and families that have a policy of total abstinence until 18/21. This is because teens learn to manage and moderate alcohol responsibly under the supervision of their parents a long time before they begin drinking with their friends on their own, where they may be pressured by individuals [who did not receive a proper upbringing] to drink to get drunk and go on binges. Kids must be taught and given the tools to manage various situations before they face them; parents should not pretend such a thing will never happen to their child and then expect their child to deal with it on their own. Banning all drug use and teaching abstinence is just a reflection of ignorance to the reality that sooner or later most kids will try them an/or do them again.
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Then first and foremost PARENTS must begin to teach their kids the difference between responsible recreational, medical, or spirtitual use of drugs .vs. drug abuse.........................Cultures and individual families who support responsible drinking in children from early teen hood onwards have much, much lower rates of alcoholism than cultures and families that have a policy of total abstinence until 18/21. This is because teens learn to manage and moderate alcohol responsibly under the supervision of their parents a long time before they begin drinking with their friends on their own, where they may be pressured by individuals [who did not receive a proper upbringing] to drink to get drunk and go on binges. Kids must be taught and given the tools to manage various situations before they face them; parents should not pretend such a thing will never happen to their child and then expect their child to deal with it on their own. Banning all drug use and teaching abstinence is just a reflection of ignorance to the reality that sooner or later most kids will try them an/or do them again.
one issue is families with multiple generations of alcoholics. How can an alcoholics teach their children responsible use by example? You're example would only work for families who already use alcohol/drugs responsibly.
Simple drug use should be considered acceptable, while drug abuse should be treated as a medical issue.
define "simple drug use".
I dont think the use of Crack cocaine or heroin is acceptable at any level, while what can be considered as acceptable use of marijuana, psychedelics, and alcohol can vary from person to person, from situation to situation. But i see what you are saying. since drugs like crack are often held at the same level of "badness" as other, less damaging drugs, people figure that when they go from smoking weed to popping pills, or popping pills to shooting heroin, they are not doing anything any worse in relation to defined cultural norms.
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"i might as well try coke and oxy and meth and any other drug i could get my hands on....because drugs are all the same and drugs are all bad, right? i'm not doing anything worse than weed by snorting coke, right?"
My five year old little sister knows coke or meth is worse than weed. If you believe this then you are an idiot, but I think you know that. It's obvious you just want to blame the program for your drug problems and future avoidance of help.
"now i'm one of those guys with a big house, three kids, gorgeous wife, and a job i love that pays very generously."
and yet, you feel the need to post on fornits and tell people this. which 99% is not true, lol. something must be wrong with ya.
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I knew coke was worse than weed...until the program brainwashed the shit out of me and made me believe that any and all drugs lead to deadinsaneorinjail.
dipshit.
You have no clue what it's like to be brainwashed until you go through it yourself and then break free from it.
dipshit
I post on fornits because i have a very, very, strong hatred towards programs and AA. and BTW, fornits is actually quite pertinent to my job, as i am an attorney specializing in juvenile drug offenders.
dipshit.
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I knew coke was worse than weed...until the program brainwashed the shit out of me and made me believe that any and all drugs lead to deadinsaneorinjail.
dipshit.
You have no clue what it's like to be brainwashed until you go through it yourself and then break free from it.
dipshit
I post on fornits because i have a very, very, strong hatred towards programs and AA. and BTW, fornits is actually quite pertinent to my job, as i am an attorney specializing in juvenile drug offenders.
dipshit.
I think its really funny when people claim they were brainwashed, its really just a way for you to cop out of your own responsibility for your choices. But you fit in at fornits well, with your irrational hatred of AA and witty repetitive 1990's insults. by the way, do you think posting on fornits somehow keeps the thousands of AA meetings going on right now from taking place? you are a nobody posting on a nothing website, congratulations !
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choices come as a result of a thinking process that is directly connected to a worldview. When you are trained like a dog to accept a different worldview, your choices change, because you are thinking differently. When you are brainwashed, you are not thinking for yourself, you are allowing others to think for you. when you are trained to not even consider allowing yourself to think for yourself, your choices become not yours but other's.
My hatred for AA is not irrational. I have alot of rationale to hate it, primarily because the AA belief system, the cultish idea that addiction is a disease and that only a higher power can keep you clean (an oxymoronic statement to begin with), has made it's way into mainstream thought and has corrupted our society and destroyed many, many lives. Then there is the despicable standard that says that alcoholics are not responsible for their actions when drunk....something widely accepted by AA and against what you yourself said. Alcoholics (non-brainwashed) are completely responsible for their actions no matter what, because they CHOOSE to drink. Those that are in the AA program, strongly believe that they are not responsible for drunk actions because they did not choose to drink - and they in fact are not truly responsible for their actions because they have been brainwashed by AA to believe that they are not in control - and therefore do not have any self-control because they believe such a thing does not exist; they do not recognize the existence of willpower against substance abuse within themselves. essentially, they are being misled.....and this has consequences for society as a whole because alcoholics are not held responsible for their actions (offered "treatment" in the form of even more AA instead) which only perpetuates their own helplessness. Using or not using drugs is a choice only if you believe it's a choice. as long as you believe that you are powerless, you will be powerless and you will have to resort to praying to your higher power (9/10 the higher power is effectively the groupmind/collective consciousness of the AA group).
no, posting on fornits does not stop meetings. I understand that. but hopefully, someone who does go to AA will read this and think for themselves for the first time, and realize that they are being misled. In this context, this is not a nothing website because Fornits receives thousands of hits a day, most of which are by individuals were either in treatment once, are in it now, parents looking for treatment for their kids, and attorneys researching leads for cases.....such as myself.
you my freind, are just a brainwashed programmie so i really dont hold you're trolling against you. You have been misled yourself, you are brainwashed, and you dont know any better. You are not responsible for my actions.
I on the other hand, am fully aware of my actions and have been since the day i decided that no higher power, no group consciousness, no drug could ever control me as long as i did not allow it/them to.
Despite the fact that i smoke weed weekly, i can honestly say that i am %100 sober. Sobriety is not a chemical state, it's a state of mind. You are most definitely not sober, even if you have never done a drug in your life. You are intoxicated with extremist ideology. NO ONE, i repeat NO ONE who is an avid AA member is sober, regardless of how long it's been since their last drink. WHY? because they are not in control, they have surrendered their right to power over themselves to a higher power, and therefore are unable to make choices or think for themselves.
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you my freind, are just a brainwashed programmie so i really dont hold you're trolling against you. You have been misled yourself, you are brainwashed, and you dont know any better. You are not responsible for my actions.
TYPO meant to say "you are not responsible for YOUR actions"
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choices come as a result of a thinking process that is directly connected to a worldview. When you are trained like a dog to accept a different worldview, your choices change, because you are thinking differently. When you are brainwashed, you are not thinking for yourself, you are allowing others to think for you. when you are trained to not even consider allowing yourself to think for yourself, your choices become not yours but other's.
My hatred for AA is not irrational. I have alot of rationale to hate it, primarily because the AA belief system, the cultish idea that addiction is a disease and that only a higher power can keep you clean (an oxymoronic statement to begin with), has made it's way into mainstream thought and has corrupted our society and destroyed many, many lives. Then there is the despicable standard that says that alcoholics are not responsible for their actions when drunk....something widely accepted by AA and against what you yourself said. Alcoholics (non-brainwashed) are completely responsible for their actions no matter what, because they CHOOSE to drink. Those that are in the AA program, strongly believe that they are not responsible for drunk actions because they did not choose to drink - and they in fact are not truly responsible for their actions because they have been brainwashed by AA to believe that they are not in control - and therefore do not have any self-control because they believe such a thing does not exist; they do not recognize the existence of willpower against substance abuse within themselves. essentially, they are being misled.....and this has consequences for society as a whole because alcoholics are not held responsible for their actions (offered "treatment" in the form of even more AA instead) which only perpetuates their own helplessness. Using or not using drugs is a choice only if you believe it's a choice. as long as you believe that you are powerless, you will be powerless and you will have to resort to praying to your higher power (9/10 the higher power is effectively the groupmind/collective consciousness of the AA group).
no, posting on fornits does not stop meetings. I understand that. but hopefully, someone who does go to AA will read this and think for themselves for the first time, and realize that they are being misled. In this context, this is not a nothing website because Fornits receives thousands of hits a day, most of which are by individuals were either in treatment once, are in it now, parents looking for treatment for their kids, and attorneys researching leads for cases.....such as myself.
you my freind, are just a brainwashed programmie so i really dont hold you're trolling against you. You have been misled yourself, you are brainwashed, and you dont know any better. You are not responsible for my actions.
I on the other hand, am fully aware of my actions and have been since the day i decided that no higher power, no group consciousness, no drug could ever control me as long as i did not allow it/them to.
Despite the fact that i smoke weed weekly, i can honestly say that i am %100 sober. Sobriety is not a chemical state, it's a state of mind. You are most definitely not sober, even if you have never done a drug in your life. You are intoxicated with extremist ideology. NO ONE, i repeat NO ONE who is an avid AA member is sober, regardless of how long it's been since their last drink. WHY? because they are not in control, they have surrendered their right to power over themselves to a higher power, and therefore are unable to make choices or think for themselves.
what i'm trying to say....is (holding you to your own standards) a cop-out for alcoholics, addicts, and their families to believe that they are powerless over substances and therefore not responsible for their drug/alcohol-induced actions and lack of self control. the responsibility is shouldered on the group, which cannot be held accountable.
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another thing i forgot to mention:
Alcoholics are responsible because they choose to drink.
I did not choose to be brainwashed. Most people who join AA also do not choose to be brainwashed, they choose to make themselves sober and are misled then brainwashed when they attend AA.
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relax dude. you really are wasting your time. most programmies will never be able to wrap their minds around what you just said. Thats why they are programmies, not philosophers or lawyers.
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choices come as a result of a thinking process that is directly connected to a worldview. When you are trained like a dog to accept a different worldview, your choices change, because you are thinking differently. When you are brainwashed, you are not thinking for yourself, you are allowing others to think for you. when you are trained to not even consider allowing yourself to think for yourself, your choices become not yours but other's.
My hatred for AA is not irrational. I have alot of rationale to hate it, primarily because the AA belief system, the cultish idea that addiction is a disease and that only a higher power can keep you clean (an oxymoronic statement to begin with), has made it's way into mainstream thought and has corrupted our society and destroyed many, many lives. Then there is the despicable standard that says that alcoholics are not responsible for their actions when drunk....something widely accepted by AA and against what you yourself said. Alcoholics (non-brainwashed) are completely responsible for their actions no matter what, because they CHOOSE to drink. Those that are in the AA program, strongly believe that they are not responsible for drunk actions because they did not choose to drink - and they in fact are not truly responsible for their actions because they have been brainwashed by AA to believe that they are not in control - and therefore do not have any self-control because they believe such a thing does not exist; they do not recognize the existence of willpower against substance abuse within themselves. essentially, they are being misled.....and this has consequences for society as a whole because alcoholics are not held responsible for their actions (offered "treatment" in the form of even more AA instead) which only perpetuates their own helplessness. Using or not using drugs is a choice only if you believe it's a choice. as long as you believe that you are powerless, you will be powerless and you will have to resort to praying to your higher power (9/10 the higher power is effectively the groupmind/collective consciousness of the AA group).
no, posting on fornits does not stop meetings. I understand that. but hopefully, someone who does go to AA will read this and think for themselves for the first time, and realize that they are being misled. In this context, this is not a nothing website because Fornits receives thousands of hits a day, most of which are by individuals were either in treatment once, are in it now, parents looking for treatment for their kids, and attorneys researching leads for cases.....such as myself.
you my freind, are just a brainwashed programmie so i really dont hold you're trolling against you. You have been misled yourself, you are brainwashed, and you dont know any better. You are not responsible for my actions.
I on the other hand, am fully aware of my actions and have been since the day i decided that no higher power, no group consciousness, no drug could ever control me as long as i did not allow it/them to.
Despite the fact that i smoke weed weekly, i can honestly say that i am %100 sober. Sobriety is not a chemical state, it's a state of mind. You are most definitely not sober, even if you have never done a drug in your life. You are intoxicated with extremist ideology. NO ONE, i repeat NO ONE who is an avid AA member is sober, regardless of how long it's been since their last drink. WHY? because they are not in control, they have surrendered their right to power over themselves to a higher power, and therefore are unable to make choices or think for themselves.
Your logic fails. Proof of this is in the original article in this posting x countless others = you are a lone nut. But hey, maybe you should consider donating money to fornits since they give you an outlet for this bullshit. I know nobody else would leave it up on their website, talk about a waste of bandwith.
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So why are you wasting your time on this "nothing" website? What does that say about YOU? :rofl:
Programs and AA are just a way to trade one addiction for another. There is not much difference. I've seem 'em feeding their nicotine and caffeine addictions, telling themselves they are powerless over alcohol while sitting in a meeting NOT DRINKING :rofl:
The both want to keep you disempowered. I have seen first hand what happens when a person with a drug or alcohol habit learns to value their own life and accept their personal power instead of turning it over to a program or so-called highter power. Usually they become more responsible and more likely to give up substances. Not everyone does but that is their choice and they are responsible for those choices and the consequences thereof. There is no "higher" power or "lower power", there is only the personal power of personal acceptance and responsibility.
So toddle along now to your AA meeting. :dose:
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Your logic fails. Proof of this is in the original article in this posting x countless others = you are a lone nut. But hey, maybe you should consider donating money to fornits since they give you an outlet for this bullshit. I know nobody else would leave it up on their website, talk about a waste of bandwith.
saying such a thing just propels you further into idiocracy. Just because alot of people believe something does not make it true. You have just proven that you barely graduated high school and probably never attended college, otherwise you'd be able to pick apart my logic easily without resorting to Argumentum ad populum....i left plenty of holes and fallacies in there on purpose to see if you would go for them, and you didnt, instead resorting to your carnal social instincts....your brainwashing...without a single independent thought popping into your head. have you even ever head of "Argumentum ad populum"? of course not....if you did, you wouldnt use it.
heres a primer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum)
To the other above poster: you are mostly correct, except for that "there is no higher power" part. It doesnt matter if you believe in god or angels or whatever, the "higher power" as you've probably been told in countless AA meetings...has nothing to do with a spiritual deity unless you choose for it to be that (in which case the deity is simply a figurehead, a puppet on strings for whatever the AA group believes in). the higher power is the group itself.
here is some stuff to think about for all the flatlanders:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_consciousness (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_consciousness)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_intelligence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_intelligence)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consensus_reality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consensus_reality)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abilene_paradox (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abilene_paradox)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_unconsciousness (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_unconsciousness)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crowd_psychology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crowd_psychology)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_behaviour (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_behaviour)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bandwagon_effect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bandwagon_effect)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peer_pressure (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peer_pressure)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_comparison_theory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_comparison_theory)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_fear (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_fear)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_constructionism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_constructionism)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_construction (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_construction)
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I know nobody else would leave it up on their website, talk about a waste of bandwith.
YAY! LETS ALL DANCE AROUND THROWING BOOKS IN BONFIRES! YAY! DONT YOU KNOW ANYTHING EXCEPT GOD'S EXACT WORDS (THE BIBLE) AND THE BIG BOOK (THE OTHER BIBLE) ARE THE WORK OF SATAN!? DONT YOU KNOW ALL THESE EDUCATED THINKERS ARE SATANISTS? THEY SHOULD ALL BE BURNED AT THE STAKE JUST LIKE THEIR BOOKS WITH ALL THE OTHER JEWS AND NIGGERS! YAY! PRAISE JESUS! HAIL MARY! GYEDERDONE!
p.s, would someone pass me a bud light? i'm thirsty for some piss. and while you're at it, can you adjust my bedsheet? the eye holes are misaligned.....
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Your logic fails. Proof of this is in the original article in this posting x countless others = you are a lone nut. But hey, maybe you should consider donating money to fornits since they give you an outlet for this bullshit. I know nobody else would leave it up on their website, talk about a waste of bandwith.
welcum back. you must be the sarah palin lover we all love to ream. enjoying your stay? why do you bother coming around here anyway? maybe you should donate some money...you're obviously getting quite a bit of satisfaction spreading your ignorant bullshit all over here yourself.
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I know nobody else would leave it up on their website, talk about a waste of bandwith.
YAY! LETS ALL DANCE AROUND THROWING BOOKS IN BONFIRES! YAY! DONT YOU KNOW ANYTHING EXCEPT GOD'S EXACT WORDS (THE BIBLE) AND THE BIG BOOK (THE OTHER BIBLE) ARE THE WORK OF SATAN!? DONT YOU KNOW ALL THESE EDUCATED THINKERS ARE SATANISTS? THEY SHOULD ALL BE BURNED AT THE STAKE JUST LIKE THEIR BOOKS WITH ALL THE OTHER JEWS AND NIGGERS! YAY! PRAISE JESUS! HAIL MARY! GYEDERDONE!
p.s, would someone pass me a bud light? i'm thirsty for some piss. and while you're at it, can you adjust my bedsheet? the eye holes are misaligned.....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law).
Because telling a repetitive internet idiot to shut up is not analogous to burning Jews.
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Your logic fails. Proof of this is in the original article in this posting x countless others = you are a lone nut. But hey, maybe you should consider donating money to fornits since they give you an outlet for this bullshit. I know nobody else would leave it up on their website, talk about a waste of bandwith.
saying such a thing just propels you further into idiocracy. Just because alot of people believe something does not make it true. You have just proven that you barely graduated high school and probably never attended college, otherwise you'd be able to pick apart my logic easily without resorting to Argumentum ad populum....i left plenty of holes and fallacies in there on purpose to see if you would go for them, and you didnt, instead resorting to your carnal social instincts....your brainwashing...without a single independent thought popping into your head. have you even ever head of "Argumentum ad populum"? of course not....if you did, you wouldnt use it.
heres a primer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum)
To the other above poster: you are mostly correct, except for that "there is no higher power" part. It doesnt matter if you believe in god or angels or whatever, the "higher power" as you've probably been told in countless AA meetings...has nothing to do with a spiritual deity unless you choose for it to be that (in which case the deity is simply a figurehead, a puppet on strings for whatever the AA group believes in). the higher power is the group itself.
here is some stuff to think about for all the flatlanders:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_consciousness (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_consciousness)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_intelligence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_intelligence)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consensus_reality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consensus_reality)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abilene_paradox (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abilene_paradox)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_unconsciousness (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_unconsciousness)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crowd_psychology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crowd_psychology)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_behaviour (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_behaviour)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bandwagon_effect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bandwagon_effect)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peer_pressure (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peer_pressure)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_comparison_theory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_comparison_theory)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_fear (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_fear)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_constructionism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_constructionism)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_construction (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_construction)
Those are some impressive links, but they change the fact you are an extremist. I see this post and read it and take it at face value. This woman had a big problem with drug addiction, and she says that the treatment saved her life. I'm happy for her that she found what worked. You read this story and you make fun of people for admitting if they didn't quit drugs they'd be dead or in jail. Guess what? This ends up being reality for a large number of people, despite your ridicule. AA is a huge organization with thousands of meetings going on all over the world 24 hours a day. Obviously they are doing something right.
But no, because you had a bad experience at AA or weren't willing to do the work, you've declared it irrelevant to everyone. Instead of accepting that AA works other people, lots of people, you make up some grand delusion about mass brainwashing and post a bunch of links. You are just like the 'programies' you claim to fight, they are unable to see both sides of an argument and think everyone who says programs are bad is, guess what, brainwashed. All of you extremists are exactly alike, even in the way you posts your manifestos all over the internet as if anybody cares. But your extremist arrogance convinces you that you are 'saving lives' and all that, just like the rest. AA works for a hell of a lot more people than it doesn't work for, the free market has spoken., Get over it.
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I never said AA doesnt stop people from drinking or doing drugs.
i said that they never get truly sober, because AA/NA never gets them truly sober, they stop doing drugs by tricking themselves and devolving psychologically. you are ignoring the meat of my post and just tearing at the skin, and yet again, you use argumentum ad populum (free market has spoken... :roflmao: ). according to you, the means justify the ends; you are the extremist here. To me, no means justify the ends, and i feel to get to that end, the only way is through personal willpower, not through sacrifice of independent thinking to a higher power.
and sorry to burst your bubble, but AA/NA actually doesnt work for more people than it does, and it's recidivism/relapse rates, and the number of individuals who add marks to their rap sheets while in the program, are higher than in any other treatment methodology. Furthermore....how many people are actually helped by AA, and how many people are tricked into thinking they were helped by AA? afteall...as another poster pointed out, they go to meetings and sit there NOT DRINKING. no higher power gets you to stop drinking. you stop yourself from drinking, but sometimes it takes tricking someone into thinking a higher power helped them stop, when it was really themselves.
just by going by the phrase "...you refused to do the work" i can tell you're just a programmie. You're right, i didnt do the work. Instead, i decided to become TRULY honest with myself and quit on my own. did you hear that? i recovered from a SERIOUS physical and mental addiction to both heavy opiates and stimulants, without the need for a false higher power or group meetings. Everyone i know that did likewise....is clean as a whistle and have not looked back. relapse is not in their vocabulary. my friends that joined NA....the're all still stuck thinking they are addicts and relapsing regularly. so there you go...the free market has spoken. :sue: .
also, AA sure as hell (as admitted by anyone who read the book) doesnt help anyone forced into the program. then why, tell me, do programs force people into AA? why does the legal system consider AA a viable method of treatment in leu of jail for some offenses? How many people are at AA that actually want to be there, and how many people are there because they are forced to go by their parents/probation officer/judge/residential treatment center?
You need to learn how to look between the lines, and not accept everything you are told at face value.
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-effectiveness.html (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-effectiveness.html)
http://www.addictioninfo.org/articles/1 ... Page1.html (http://www.addictioninfo.org/articles/1587/1/Estimates-of-AAs-Effectiveness/Page1.html)
http://www.morerevealed.com/library/coc/chapter7.htm (http://www.morerevealed.com/library/coc/chapter7.htm)
furthermore, not one single respectable medical society supports, endorses, reccomends, or even recognizes alchoholics/narcotics anonymous. It is not, by the medical field, considered viable treatment. go wrap your mind around that, Mr truth is found in argumentum ad populum (free market).
also, you might want to consider the fact that you are the extremist here, and i'm the realist. You have undying loyalty for a cult program and your only defense towards it is that i am lazy and crazy and argumentum ad populum will prove it works (it actually proves it doesnt....read the links), I have a very logical set of reasons why AA does not work, or if it does, works through dishonest means. If you actually talk to some non-AA-brainwashees for once in your life (i know, it's hard, "they dont understand you"), you will find that you are actually the minority and extremist. No one with a head on their shoulders considers AA to be an honest and effective way to get sober.
you should also consider facts that public AA meeting attendance AND retention is lower in places like NYC and LA than it is in places like Knoxville TN or Tallahassee FL. educated people know better than to allow someone to convince them to lie to themselves.
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I have yet to see any AA attendee get sober and stay sober while attending meetings.
Going to AA meetings regularly is considered relapsing in my book. Just trading one addiction for another. The idea that addiction is an incurable lifelong disease is horseshit. I know countless individuals just like the above guest who recovered from heavy addictions purely with their own willpower, without the need for AA, and never looked back. If you need AA to make you think you've solved your problems, you're a brainless spineless weakling and deserve to be naturally selected out of the gene pool via your addiction be it heroin or coffee and cigarettes.
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I have yet to see any AA attendee get sober and stay sober while attending meetings.
Going to AA meetings regularly is considered relapsing in my book. Just trading one addiction for another. The idea that addiction is an incurable lifelong disease is horseshit. I know countless individuals just like the above guest who recovered from heavy addictions purely with their own willpower, without the need for AA, and never looked back. If you need AA to make you think you've solved your problems, you're a brainless spineless weakling and deserve to be naturally selected out of the gene pool via your addiction be it heroin or coffee and cigarettes.
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I know I'm way behind on this argument, but may I interject this theory...
I believe addiction is simply a symptom of a combination of pre- existing disorders and self-harming decision making... yet you can go your whole life without even trying drugs and still be an addict. We've all heard of the "addictive personality" well why haven't they come up with a disorder to correctly categorize this behavior pattern? Furthermore why is there no psychological or medical treatment for such a disorder?
Instead the accepted theory is that addiction to just about anything under the sun is a disease?... I'm sorry but that simply makes no logical sense. The only reason this assumption came to be is because sympathetic doctors wanted addiction to be considered a medically treatable affliction, that does not mean that it meets any of the requirements to be categorized as a disease.
Yet people are led to believe that something as serious as a disease can be managed by weekly group meetings? I don't understand how this misconception has become so widely accepted, and furthermore pushed into mainstream by our judicial system, its almost like people actually prefer to be ignorant.
This woman who the press so lovingly coins a "crack head" was definitely on her way down a slippery slope, and her arrest did throw a wrench in that progress but does that prove that the methods of addiction treatment is successful? Where is she today and has she really abstained from drugs? or has she relapsed and is now deadinsaneorinjail? My guesstimate is that she is probably smoking a doob right now... and that she did relapse as most do and only after did she start to re-teach herself moderation and responsible usage.
I really think there is a way to successfully TREAT addiction problems but from experience I've come to believe that the way of AA/NA has just got it all wrong... unfortunately no one has really come up with a competing theory/ practice because of the state of our countries no tolerance polices fueled by the "war on drugs". I'm really hoping we as a society are willing to shed the shadow of our previous generations misconceptions and start enacting new and more effective policies. Unfortunately there are many many people who bullheadedly choose to live in the dark and make life as miserable as possible for everyone around them...
so thanks a lot sarah palin.
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Yet people are led to believe that something as serious as a disease can be managed by weekly group meetings? I don't understand how this misconception has become so widely accepted, and furthermore pushed into mainstream by our judicial system, its almost like people actually prefer to be ignorant.
n.
they choose to be ignorant, they choose AA over willpower and moderation because it gives them a sense of power, it shoulders their responsibility on the higher power, the group, and the unseen force of their "addiction disease". AA makes life easy and keeps addicts empowered to do anything they want in the name of addiction.... because it's the addiction's fault, not theirs. It's not necessarily because of ignorance, it's because of laziness and lack of motivation to hold oneself accountable, and honest to oneself.
if you were to chose between these two things, what would you choose?
A. The fact that i drink a bottle of jack everyday is not my fault. i am not a bad person. I am not a weak person. i am a diseased person, and as long as I fulfill these twelve steps, my disease will be under control - not under my control, but under god's control. I am not responsible for anything i do drunk.
or
B. the fact that i drink a bottle of jack everyday IS my fault. I am a bad person, i have done horrible things as a result. they are all MY fault, not the alcohol's. I am weak because i can't force myself to stop easily. I am not diseased, I simply lack self-control. I am responsible for everything i do while drunk.
most people will pick A, because it's the easier choice. It keeps them from facing their own problems head-on. It limits their liability both socially and legally, and preserves their feeling of self-worth and social standing through sympathy. It also helps with legal defense...which is why it's accepted legally. Sometime within the last century some smart lawyer figured out that through the AA belief system, one's liability is limited if one performs an illegal act while drunk and while an alcoholic. This defense probably didnt work for a while...until a single judge or jury (probably an alcoholic himself/themselves, possibly also in AA) felt sympathetic and went for the defense. that set a precedent, and now half the municipalities in the US accept some form of the "AA" defense for things such a DUI first/second time offenders, drunk and disorderly, lewd public acts, child neglect, etc.
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the fact that i drink a bottle of jack everyday IS my fault. I am a bad person, i have done horrible things as a result. they are all MY fault, not the alcohol's. I am weak because i can't force myself to stop easily. I am not diseased, I simply lack self-control. I am responsible for everything i do while drunk.
the fact that i am in a program IS my fault. I am a bad person, i have done horrible things as a result. they are all MY fault, not my parent's. I am weak because i can't force myself to follow the rules. I really am a troubled teen, and I lack self-control. I am responsible for everything I do.
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no shit. but that doesnt take away the fact that i was abused at the program, and i had to hold my program accountable for the rape, beatings, and fraud at provo and cedu. not that that even applies to this conversation... people should not get sent away to be abused just because they do drugs (in my case, just for smoking weed).
so take your "double standard" and shove it. you prove yourself to be more of a brainless hypocrite with every word you say.
btw, im not a teen. im a law school grad with kids... and you better pray i never see you in court because my specialty is prosecuting programs like the one you work for.
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See also:
Evangelical treatment program gets $2.4 million from state
"Public funding of Minnesota Teen Challenge raises constitutional questions"
viewtopic.php?f=57&t=28760 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=57&t=28760)[/list]
Former crack addict: MN Teen Challenge saved her life
Same article as OP, but with link
viewtopic.php?f=57&t=28777 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=57&t=28777)[/list]
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You guys are not open to the fact a program saved this child's (detainee politically correct for child at a program) life. Why are you so negative?
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- the article perpetuates the bad faith and bad logic of the war on drugs. The world's drug problems would be solved through legalization, regulation, and honest education. Instead, the world focuses on treatment or incarceration enforcing a societal and cultural stigma on drug users as the solution, which, as described in detail throughout this thread, only perpetuates the problem and only creates more of a need for treatment and incarceration. Because of this, any piece of public communication in support of the continuance of the current system, knowingly or not, is putting money into the pockets of people who feed off of the misery of the ignorant, unfortunate, and weak.
- the program is claiming undeserved credit and the kid has been brainwashed to agree.
-the article is just a big puff piece paid for by the TTI to boost business. In layman's terms, it's just an ad, not serious journalism.
-The article is inherently and obviously biased, since opinions are presented as facts, no fact presented can be trusted to be true.