Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Anonymous on September 05, 2009, 10:05:58 AM
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The typical life cycle for a fornits poster seems to be like this. They find fornits and start remembering way back when they were in a program that sucked. They naturally get angry and realize what happened was wrong. They vent and post about what happened. Then they decide to 'do something about it'. They try for a little while and nothing happens. Then they disappear, never to be heard from again.
There' s a long list of wannabe activists who have made there way through here, making grandiose claims about their intentions and what they will do to stop programs. Usually the more grand the claims the quicker they seem to vanish. I don't mean to harp on survivors only, probably more of these types of people are just regular people who never went to a program and are just outraged by a news article they read or something, or a family member of a survivor.
Why does this happen so much? Do they get disillusioned with fornits? Do they realize their efforts are fruitless?
Why is it that every attempt to organize an anti-program movement, in any way, has resulted in complete and utter failure?
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Um, it's not. Bunch of programs have been shut down. There's an ongoing (into it's third year now) Government Accountability Office investigation. There are a couple of movies out and more and more references popping up in mainstream culture.
I suppose it depends on what you're after. If you wanted to see fire bombing raids a la Waco, well, I'm glad you're not getting what you want. What I would like to see is our culture recognize and soundly reject the very notion of thought reform. It'll take some time. But I honestly think we'll get there or at least pretty near there.
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Your point is so demonstrably false it's kind of absurd.
While correlation does not imply causation, let's take a look at some of the relatively well organized "campaigns" and the results so far:
Anti-WWASP and the various other anti-wwasp websites - Less than half it's size at it's peak
Kat Whitehead - Mission Moutain School closed
Closethayernow - Thayer closed
Family Foundation School Truth Campaign - enrollment down from 260 to 170
Hiddlen Lake Academy - on the brink of closing
There are numerous other examples, but a well focused, well organized campaign against a program has had success in closing or downsizing a school or set of programs.
The key is persistence. If nothing else, parents who would have picked program x will choose program y if there's enough red flags raised about program x. Unfortunately, then we're just playing whack-a-mole.
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The typical life cycle for a fornits poster seems to be like this. They find fornits and start remembering way back when they were in a program that sucked. They naturally get angry and realize what happened was wrong. They vent and post about what happened. Then they decide to 'do something about it'. They try for a little while and nothing happens. Then they disappear, never to be heard from again.
There' s a long list of wannabe activists who have made there way through here, making grandiose claims about their intentions and what they will do to stop programs. Usually the more grand the claims the quicker they seem to vanish. I don't mean to harp on survivors only, probably more of these types of people are just regular people who never went to a program and are just outraged by a news article they read or something, or a family member of a survivor.
Why does this happen so much? Do they get disillusioned with fornits? Do they realize their efforts are fruitless?
LOL. You're seeing it all wrong. Or is that the obfuscation you're trying to accomplish? :D
What exactly reads as "fail" for you when someone comes on here, posts a bit, and then gets on (or doesn't) with other of their life's endeavors, pleasures, and responsibilities? What remains is their story, their efforts. What remains is many folks' stories and efforts. The database builds, for others to learn and gain insight from. How is this "fruitless?"
Why is it that every attempt to organize an anti-program movement, in any way, has resulted in complete and utter failure?
While correlation does not imply causation, let's take a look at some of the relatively well organized "campaigns" and the results so far:
Anti-WWASP and the various other anti-wwasp websites - Less than half it's size at it's peak
Kat Whitehead - Mission Moutain School closed
Closethayernow - Thayer closed
Family Foundation School Truth Campaign - enrollment down from 260 to 170
Hiddlen Lake Academy - on the brink of closing
There are numerous other examples, but a well focused, well organized campaign against a program has had success in closing or downsizing a school or set of programs.
Some more examples of program closures in the recent past, which followed on the heels of anti-program activity:
Pathway Family Center
Darrington Academy
Tranquility Bay
White Rock Academy
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Accoring to recent residents....it still totally sucks to be there.
Still uses "humiliation Therapy" ect.
I like to call it "Shame and Blame."
Sorta like "Shake and Bake." :D
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The economy is slow, enrollment is down. People will want to take credit for this, whether they had anything to do with it or not. Evolution in the marketplace of programs is taking place, old programs are being replaced by new and more innovative programs. Enrollment will pick up as the economy improves, and parents will choose the best programs out there and will naturally avoid the seemingly primitive choice. But then there will always be parents like Pam who manage to find the worst programs despite all the information on the internet. Overall I'd say the number of kids subjected to programs will continue to increase, although the type of programs might change over time.
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No doubt guest, people are lining up to take credit for the economy being slow. In fact it's hard to know who is responsible with so many taking credit for the economic decline. Great post.
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The economy is slow, enrollment is down. People will want to take credit for this, whether they had anything to do with it or not. Evolution in the marketplace of programs is taking place, old programs are being replaced by new and more innovative programs. Enrollment will pick up as the economy improves, and parents will choose the best programs out there and will naturally avoid the seemingly primitive choice. But then there will always be parents like Pam who manage to find the worst programs despite all the information on the internet. Overall I'd say the number of kids subjected to programs will continue to increase, although the type of programs might change over time.
I personally cannot attest to movements against other programs, but HLA being exposed and shut down started long before the down turn in the economy. We forced the GAO to do their job, we forced licensure upon them, we began a viral campaign letting ed cons all over the country know what was really going on there, and members of fornits were knee deep in the law suit. About the only thing we didnt do was start the fire.
There has been a downward trend in this industry for years, it is slowing and thankfully dying. Although it is because of the actions of posters on fornits and other such places, the program owners and those who support child abuse, have only themselves to blame.
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Well. To take one program as an example: Bechmark's enrollment was in the toilet a whole year before the economy turned to shit. I doubt they would have sued me if I didn't have anything to do with that. After suing me, they ended up in an even worse situation, having to pay both my lawyers and their own. That probably ended up being 500-750k. That's the cost (for them) of about 20+ student enrollments. There are lots of similar stories about programs all over. Whether you want to believe it or are too depressed to, speaking out against these places and setting up websites does work. Benchmark claimed in the lawsuit their enrollment went from 65/year to around 16/year. I doubt they'll survive much longer, even after changing their name to "Benchmark Transitions". Look at the number of other schools (Thayer, etc) that have changed names as well (and shut down). Negative publicity *does* hurt them. The wouldn't sue or even respond at all if it didn't.
I can list off about 25+ programs that have shut down this year. Sure the economy had something to do with speeding up the process, but they wouldn't be in a bad situation in the first place if it weren't for people speaking out, the GAO's reports, websites like ISAC, the posters on Fornits and their activities outside fornits, etc. This isn't even to mention that programs were shutting down before the economy went belly up. Fornits itself might not do much directly in the scheme of things but a lot of projects are started here and a lot of ideas are sparked. Without that spark nothing would go anywhere.
I see two possibilities here. Either you're on the anti-program side and are just beaten up and depressed, or you're a program supporter who is here to convince others that resistance is futile. Either way, you're wrong. If hope fails you, you should still fight. Not necessarily because you see a possibility of "winning" (that exists), but because it's the right thing to do and every kid that's kept out of a program helps. Better than the shame of giving up and figuring out later you had them to the wall when you did. Now that they're weakened is the time to strike hardest.
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The people who post here only care about the one program they were in. They will wait years, and even decades until their program finally closes, after which they promptly declare victory and close up shop. Meanwhile they tend to ignore the hundreds of new programs that opened up in the meantime. Fornits is an exercise in selfishness mixed with a healthy dose of futility.
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Now that you mention it, the PFC story is a wonderful example of how completely off base the OP really is. Let me give yunz a little background.
Moves against PFC started way, way back in the early days of Fornits. One of the first one man protests was a nifty idea by a dude who had been in Straight, Cinci. before the name change to PFC. All he did was make up a flyer with some interesting facts and inconvenient questions, printed it out on orange paper with the headline "Halloween Saving Pac" and just stuck them on windshields near the building during an open meeting. At the same time, Bill and Shelby had already started documenting everything about the organization and relentlessly pestering various authorities to earn their damned paychecks along with the occasional in person visit. This continued on when Deprogrammed, who is local to the area, started organizing semi-regular protests and then WDTony picked up the banner. He and his merry crew of lovable misfits not only shut down the Milford location (I had a blast both times I attended those protests) but followed them across state lines and kept after them till the entire outfit finally went under. This along with continued "back stage" efforts by Bill and Shelby and who knows what else that I haven't been privy to.
Here's the really interesting part of it all and why the Fornits experiment still fascinates me. ISAC started out as an alternative to SAFETY because we couldn't get along or agree on much of anything. Deprogrammed and Tony have had their head butting and run ins just about non stop. CAFETY and various Fornisticators have viewed one another with loathing and suspicion since the beginning. There has been no organized, concerted effort. It's all been individuals doing what they choose, how they think it ought to be done and of their own volition. The only thing Fornits had to do with any of this has been to cause certain key words to turn up in a google search so that all these very different thinking people could find one another and play off of one another's efforts.
Why post to Fornits? I dunno. Not my call. I guess because people find some value in it. If not, why then by all means :boycott:
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The people who post here only care about the one program they were in. They will wait years, and even decades until their program finally closes, after which they promptly declare victory and close up shop. Meanwhile they tend to ignore the hundreds of new programs that opened up in the meantime. Fornits is an exercise in selfishness mixed with a healthy dose of futility.
I used the example since i'm familiar with it and personally visited to check out the enrollment decline. I have no intention of "closing up shop" once Benchmark closes. Yes, new programs open, and the same thing will happen to them as happened to the old ones. Just because you can't see the end doesn't mean it's a never-ending battle, and even if it was it would still be worth fighting. Even if the result was just to keep a single kid out of a program it would be worth it. Thankfully, the results are a lot better than that, even if you're too depressed or tired to admit it. You want to give up... go ahead. It's your choice, but don't try to make yourself feel better in you inaction by claiming no good ever comes out of fighting programs.
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The people who post here only care about the one program they were in. They will wait years, and even decades until their program finally closes, after which they promptly declare victory and close up shop. Meanwhile they tend to ignore the hundreds of new programs that opened up in the meantime. Fornits is an exercise in selfishness mixed with a healthy dose of futility.
I used the example since i'm familiar with it and personally visited to check out the enrollment decline. I have no intention of "closing up shop" once Benchmark closes. Yes, new programs open, and the same thing will happen to them as happened to the old ones. Just because you can't see the end doesn't mean it's a never-ending battle, and even if it was it would still be worth fighting. Even if the result was just to keep a single kid out of a program it would be worth it. Thankfully, the results are a lot better than that, even if you're too depressed or tired to admit it. You want to give up... go ahead. It's your choice, but don't try to make yourself feel better in you inaction by claiming no good ever comes out of fighting programs.
Like many people on fornits you make too many assumptions about who you are talking to. Give up? I love fornits, as I know it hampers the anti program cause rather than help it. You are your own worst enemy. Why does this please me? Because I know programs save lives, whether you know it or not. What makes me feel better about myself is knowing that you will continue to keep fornits online and discredit yourselves using your own funds. That makes me smile from ear to ear.
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Like many people on fornits you make too many assumptions about who you are talking to. Give up? I love fornits, as I know it hampers the anti program cause rather than help it. You are your own worst enemy. Why does this please me? Because I know programs save lives, whether you know it or not. What makes me feel better about myself is knowing that you will continue to keep fornits online and discredit yourselves using your own funds. That makes me smile from ear to ear.
Well then you make your motivations very clear. You're pro program and are trying to convince people to stop posting here. If Fornits really did what you claim (hurt the "anti-program cause"), you wouldn't bother trying to dissuade us. You'd probably donate!
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake." - Napoleon Bonaparte
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"Well then you make your motivations very clear. You're pro program and are trying to convince people to stop posting here. "
You continue to make assumptions, this time about my motivations, and somehow you managed to get it wrong. Read what I wrote again and you might realize how ridiculous your accusation of me 'trying to convince people to stop posting here' really is. I love fornits! I wish you and everyone else would post more often. We have the same interest, the continuation of fornits existence. The only difference is that I better understand the impression on the average person after viewing fornits for the first time. You don't.
"You're pro program and are trying to convince people to stop posting here. If Fornits really did what you claim (hurt the "anti-program cause"), you wouldn't bother trying to dissuade us."
That's why I started a thread that provokes discussion, right? Keep up the good work, psy.
"If Fornits really did what you claim (hurt the "anti-program cause"), you wouldn't bother trying to dissuade us. You'd probably donate!"
Lucky for me you publicize your funding status on the bottom of the page. If you were about to go offline, I might have to donate then. But I'm sure you have plenty of suckers from your own side lined up to take care of that.
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake." - Napoleon Bonaparte
Now you get it!
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"Well then you make your motivations very clear. You're pro program and are trying to convince people to stop posting here. "
You continue to make assumptions, this time about my motivations, and somehow you managed to get it wrong. Read what I wrote again and you might realize how ridiculous your accusation of me 'trying to convince people to stop posting here' really is.
Why else would you be telling us that posting here is futile and self destructive? So we'll continue doing it? (something you claim to desire)
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake." - Napoleon Bonaparte
Now you get it!
But you don't. If you truly feel this site harms your enemy, why try to convince us of that? If people stop posting here as a result of your works we cease to hurt ourselves by your logic. That's not something you claim to want. Interrupting is precisely what you are doing right now.
It seems to me that this site is somehow a genuine thorn in your side and you are trying to tell us that we're being self destructive in order to get us to stop using a strategy that is working. It's like saying "that doesn't hurt" (when it really does) if you know a person is trying to hurt you and you want them to stop.
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Why else would you be telling us that posting here is futile and self destructive?
Because that's how I see it. Obviously, you see it another way. Do you think my thoughts are somehow translated into other people's brains and takes hold of their opinions? I'm sorry to break it to you but I'm not that powerful.
"But you don't. If you truly feel this site harms your enemy, why try to convince us of that? If people stop posting here as a result of your works we cease to hurt ourselves by your logic. That's not something you claim to want."
Why would me asking questions keep people from posting here? Questions generate answers, one of which was yours. I encouraged you to post. Had I not posted, you would of not posted. You see? I created your post by asking a question. If my intention was to keep people from posting here, as if that were even possible, why would I ask questions or post at all? If my intent was to disrupt discussion, why not just post a bunch of garbage over and over instead of thought provoking ideas?
The question asked in this thread has an obvious answer. The answer that 99% of those reading it will conclude within microseconds. The reason why the anti program has not achieved anything because it is invalid. The entire anti program 'movement', and believe me that term is being extremely generous, is based on faulty ideology. You are an small minority, yes a vocal minority, but still a minority. To every one of you claiming abuse is twenty ready to stand up and declare themselves saved. I think you know this on some level, so I present you with questions to which your answer will be nonsensical. The logical, and instinctual answer to the original question is programs work. That is why it is this type of question that generates such quick, thorough, intricate, intense response. Since the obvious answer is so, well, obvious. You must quickly and vigorously defend your ideology, not against me, or any program. You are fighting against common sense, and frankly, that sort of counter logic makes for an interesting read.
This is hardly the prevention of the discussion of ideas, it's actually the opposite.
"It seems to me that this site is somehow a genuine thorn in your side and you are trying to tell us that we're being self destructive in order to get us to stop using a strategy that is working. It's like sayign "that doesn't hurt" (when it really does) if you know a person is trying to hurt you and you want them to stop."
You know what is sad? That you think so little of yourself and those who post on your website. I know that my views will not change the views of any of those people who post on this forum. You seem to suggest that what I 'tell you' , will happen. I am not so arrogant to think this is true, and I have enough common sense to know it is definitely not true. Me posting here wil change nothing and nobody and things will continue on whether I had posted this idea or not. Keep doing what you're doing, psy.
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Apparently Aspen's current troll went too insane so they had to send in a new one.
More counterexamples...
CEDU.
PFC.
PV.
WP/Che Gookin's mauling of CALO right here on this board. It's a milestone when program owners actually come crawling here and very literally beg us to stop (the answer, naturally, is no).
And the off-Fornits activity by regulars depleting potential enrollment.
When it comes to cults, "the economy" doesn't have a lot to do with it. People will fork over their last dimes to these places and take out second mortgages. They even have their own loan systems. Anyone can blame "the economy". It's a reed. The standard bust-and-boom cycle of general capitalism doesn't remotely explain what's happening.
The entire culture that allows programs to happen is slowly shriveling and drying up, while Fornits stands around with a heat lamp.
The trolling (compare: teabagger protests) is just gas escaping.
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Wow. Four whole programs? Color me impressed. Woop, dee, doo.
Wake up, there are hundreds of programs open right now. Better ones than the ones that close, that's why parents choose the better ones. The free market works. Yay!
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why not just post a bunch of garbage over and over instead of thought provoking ideas?
But that's exactly what this is. Garbage. The entire concept of "saving" is complete nonsense, originating from a ridiculous book with unclear morals and a retarded ending. No kid can "be saved". Human psychology simply does not work that way. Having a psychological block forcing them to say they were saved, no matter what, is what actually happens.
Me posting here wil change nothing and nobody and things will continue on whether I had posted this idea or not.
Then why are you wasting your time? Go back to ST and huddle helplessly, awaiting the end.
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"No kid can "be saved". "
Incorrect.
"Then why are you wasting your time? Go back to ST and huddle helplessly, awaiting the end."
To give people like you something to do. I should charge a moral superiority surcharge, I'd make a killing.
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`Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe:
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.
"Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
The frumious Bandersnatch!"
He took his vorpal sword in hand:
Long time the manxome foe he sought --
So rested he by the Tumtum tree,
And stood awhile in thought.
And, as in uffish thought he stood,
The Jabberwock, with eyes of flame,
Came whiffling through the tulgey wood,
And burbled as it came!
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back.
"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.
`Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe;
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.
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Why would me asking questions keep people from posting here? Questions generate answers, one of which was yours.
Your questions were leading. Example: "Every anti-program project, protest or idea has failed. Why?" and "Do they realize their efforts are fruitless?" and "Why is it that every attempt to organize an anti-program movement, in any way, has resulted in complete and utter failure?". They're more statements than questions. They presuppose failure. If "every anti-program project" had actually been a failure you might have a valid question there. I'm not going to even bother quoting your original post.
why not just post a bunch of garbage over and over instead of thought provoking ideas?
"thought provoking" is extremely relative, as is "garbage". The reason this site is unmoderated is because a reader should be the one to decide that.
The question asked in this thread has an obvious answer. The answer that 99% of those reading it will conclude within microseconds. The reason why the anti program has not achieved anything because it is invalid.
Again, you're claiming that nothing has been achieved, which is false.
The entire anti program 'movement', and believe me that term is being extremely generous, is based on faulty ideology. You are an small minority, yes a vocal minority, but still a minority. To every one of you claiming abuse is twenty ready to stand up and declare themselves saved.
Show me those 20 for every 1. Statements written inside the program don't count. Show me 20 people who have been out of a program discussed here for several years who still think it saved their lives (or every one who has been harmed). There is nothing preventing those people from posting here. The only reason why most of the stories on this site are negative in regards to a specific program is because most of the experiences were negative. There is nobody moderating the dialogue here and preventing positive experiences from being talked about. If over 95% of people had positive experiences in the programs discussed here as you claim, this site would be overflowing with praise.
I think you know this on some level, so I present you with questions to which your answer will be nonsensical. The logical, and instinctual answer to the original question is programs work. That is why it is this type of question that generates such quick, thorough, intricate, intense response. Since the obvious answer is so, well, obvious. You must quickly and vigorously defend your ideology, not against me, or any program. You are fighting against common sense, and frankly, that sort of counter logic makes for an interesting read.
This is hardly the prevention of the discussion of ideas, it's actually the opposite.
If you say so. Me? I think you're logic is based on so many false assumptions it's not even worth my time to point them all out. I'll leave it up to the reader to decide.
You know what is sad? That you think so little of yourself and those who post on your website. I know that my views will not change the views of any of those people who post on this forum.
That statement contradicts your previous one "The answer that 99% of those reading it will conclude within microseconds. The reason why the anti program has not achieved anything because it is invalid.". Make up your mind.
Me posting here wil change nothing and nobody and things will continue on whether I had posted this idea or not. Keep doing what you're doing, psy.
Will do.
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"Your questions were leading. Example: "Every anti-program project, protest or idea has failed. Why?" and "Do they realize their efforts are fruitless?" and "Why is it that every attempt to organize an anti-program movement, in any way, has resulted in complete and utter failure?". They're more statements than questions. They presuppose failure. If "every anti-program project" had actually been a failure. You might have a valid question there. I'm not going to even bother quoting your original post."
I read through the bottom forum on this website dedicated to projects and protests. Nothing came of any of those, my question is valid. I clicked on the websites in your signature, that forum looks empty to me. I heard you protested, yet your targeted programs stands. I want to know, from your perspective, why you think that is. If you can't answer these simple questions without feeling intimidated by them, then it proves how faulty your ideas really are.
"thought provoking" is extremely relative, as is "garbage". The reason this site is unmoderated is because a reader should be the one to decide that."
You accused me of trying to keep people from posting. I'm asking you, if that were true why wouldn't I just hire someone to post spam all day long on your website? Instead I ask relevant, to the point questions and you somehow interpret it as a threat. Paranoid? Nervous your ideas don't hold water against a common sense question?
"Again, you're claiming that nothing has been achieved, which is false."
You haven't achieved anything. Parents can still choose to send their kids wherever they want. No regulation has been passed, which means, at best, you are asking parents to pwitty pwease don't send your kid to the mean progwam that hurt me. What has worked, is the free market. Parents don't pay money to have their kids treated badly, they want them to be helped, treated and saved. Better programs attract these parents, and older programs fall. You are attributing the natural evolution of the industry as your own personal achievement. I'm calling bullshit on that.
"Show me those 20 for every 1. Statements written inside the program don't count. Show me 20 people who have been out of a program discussed here for several years who still think it saved their lives. "
Show me 20 kids that say Benchmark abused them.
"There is nothing preventing those people from posting here. "
Yet there are only a small number of you claiming abuse. If the majority of the tens or hundreds of thousands of kids that have been in some sort of treatment were abused, I'm sure fornits would be a bit busier, don't you think?
"The only reason why most of the stories on this site are negative in regards to a specific program is because most of the experiences were negative. "
If you start an anti-whatever site the people who show up are all going to post stories to reinforce your belief. You claim this site is open to everyone, but you are hardly welcoming to those who feel programs had a positive impact on them. The silent majority disagrees with your incorrect assertion.
"There is nobody moderating the dialogue here and preventing positive experiences from being talked about. If over 95% of people had positive experiences in the programs discussed here as you claim, this site would be overflowing with praise."
They don't spend their time, years after getting out of the program, talking to the damaged individuals who never quite moved on with their life. Do you spend your time googling, say, anti-automobile forums? Because people die in car accidents, so there's probably a small minority of people who want all cars banned to prevent the auto holocaust from continuing. When's the last time you googled that? You have to get some perspective. While this occupies your thoughts, it's just a memory to most people.
"If you say so. Me? I think you're logic is based on so many false assumptions it's not even worth my time to point them all out. I'll leave it up to the reader to decide."
How brave of you to leave it up to the reader. Are you sure you don't want to interpret our conversation for them, and tell them what to think? I'm sure that bright red name of yours carries some weight around here with enough suckers.
Think about what compelled you to post such a lengthy explanation to this thread. Common sense is dangerous to faulty ideas.
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:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:
OP has a very deep-seated need to argue these points!
Btw, I found this Freudian slip to be quite telling (OP/Guest responding to Psy):
"Why would me asking questions keep people from posting here? Questions generate answers, one of which was yours. I encouraged you to post. Had I not posted, you would of not posted. You see? I created your post by asking a question."[/list]
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Not a slip. I created your post too. If my original posts did not exist, you would have nothing to respond to. I created them. I created all the posts in response to my ideas and questions, psy's and yours not included.
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I read through the bottom forum on this website dedicated to projects and protests. Nothing came of any of those, my question is valid. I clicked on the websites in your signature, that forum looks empty to me.
So not all ideas turn out as fantastic as some others. Trial and error is what it's all about. In that specific case there just isn't much of a "market" for a moderated forum, apparantly, especially when there is already the facilities questions forum and the CAN forum on this site.
I heard you protested, yet your targeted programs stands. I want to know, from your perspective, why you think that is.
I think at this point they're hanging on by a thread. Their claims in court seemed to indicate that, unless they were playing possum. What did the protest do? It lead to what they perceived as compromising video tape which they sought to suppress through legal action which ended up being self destructive for them.
If you can't answer these simple questions without feeling intimidated by them, then it proves how faulty your ideas really are.
But as I pointed out, youre questions were leading and more false statements than anything else.
No regulation has been passed, which means, at best, you are asking parents to pwitty pwease don't send your kid to the mean progwam that hurt me.
Regulation isn't the solution. I'll agree with you there. Unless your going to give kids above 13 or so the right to refuse medical treatment (granting rights of self ownership and self determination they should have), anything else is going to be ineffective.
What has worked, is the free market. Parents don't pay money to have their kids treated badly, they want them to be helped, treated and saved.
And those parents wouldn't know what programs were the worst if it wasn't for sites like this and ISAC. In order for the free market to work there has to also be a free marketplace of ideas (here)
If you start an anti-whatever site the people who show up are all going to post stories to reinforce your belief
But this site isn't an anti or pro anything site. It's an open unmoderated discussion forum. You seem to be forgetting that.
Show me 20 kids that say Benchmark abused them.
Check out the Benchmark Surviors group on Facebook.
Because people die in car accidents, so there's probably a small minority of people who want all cars banned to prevent the auto holocaust from continuing.
That's a consensual activity (driving a car). I have no problem with just about anything from prostitution to drugs to assisted suicide as long as there's consent there. Kids are sent to programs and changed permanently (often for the worse) without their consent. That, not to mention the abuse, is what I have a problem with.
How brave of you to leave it up to the reader. Are you sure you don't want to interpret our conversation for them, and tell them what to think? ... Think about what compelled you to post such a lengthy explanation to this thread.
Good point. Based on how weak your arguments were the explanation was unnecessary. I have no desire to go round and round with you. Let's agree to disagree and let the reader decide. As far as I'm concerned I'm basically done here. Those who have been around here for a while know for a fact that speaking out about their experiences in program *does* work.
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Not a slip. I created your post too. If my original posts did not exist, you would have nothing to respond to. I created them. I created all the posts in response to my ideas and questions, psy's and yours not included.
Ok mister master of the universe. Try and create another one.... cause i'm done on this thread.
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You haven't achieved anything. Parents can still choose to send their kids wherever they want. No regulation has been passed, which means, at best, you are asking parents to pwitty pwease don't send your kid to the mean progwam that hurt me. What has worked, is the free market. Parents don't pay money to have their kids treated badly, they want them to be helped, treated and saved. Better programs attract these parents, and older programs fall. You are attributing the natural evolution of the industry as your own personal achievement. I'm calling bullshit on that.
Why is it you personally think those other programs failed?
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Thanks psy. It's not so much what you have to say, since that is fairly predictable. What's more interesting is the speed and length to which people will go to defend against a common sense question. You seem to acknowledge the reality that programs will continue to exist, so what exactly is your goal say in taking the time to refute my ideas, or even long term.
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Show me those 20 for every 1. Statements written inside the program don't count. Show me 20 people who have been out of a program discussed here for several years who still think it saved their lives (or every one who has been harmed). There is nothing preventing those people from posting here. The only reason why most of the stories on this site are negative in regards to a specific program is because most of the experiences were negative. There is nobody moderating the dialogue here and preventing positive experiences from being talked about. If over 95% of people had positive experiences in the programs discussed here as you claim, this site would be overflowing with praise.
Actually, I need to disagree here, when there is failure people search for reasons why it failed more often then the successful ones search for why it was successful. Its human nature. If you had a bad experience with a dentist or cosmetic procedure you are very motivated to get out there and rattle some cages because you are pissed. The ones who had experienced successful procedures are off looking good and feeling good about themselves. How many times have you called Wal-Mart to tell them your Television is working great? Now how motivated would you be to call if you got your set home and it didn’t work?
Look at PETA,SPCA they focus mostly on all the negative experiences that animals are subjected to. They are targeting a very small minority. Most people treat animals very well and I dont think I could name one industry which is dedicated to just talking about the positive side of animal treatment. Very little money is used to look at the positive side of how people treat their animals. The reason is that this is the norm. The same with the Struggling teen industry. The norm is that kids get the help they need and if something goes wrong with a few of them then forums are created, like this one,to discuss it.
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Whooter stay out of this conversation, you have nothing to add as you have never experienced the negative side of this industry or the imaginary postive side. You brought up this point years ago and I proved to you then that your point was invalid. This industry isnt creating a product, there are no exchanges or rain checks, a child being coerced, abused, and brainwashed is not the same thing as a faulty microwave. If that wasnt enough I showed you where the majority of rape victims do not report having been attacked, its human nature to often want to simply try and forget about horrific things that are done to you on an individual basis.
To the OP my question remains; Why do you believe the programs that have failed did so? Also, would you consider getting a username. It makes communication much easier. :soapbox:
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tl;dr
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:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:
OP has a very deep-seated need to argue these points!
Btw, I found this Freudian slip to be quite telling (OP/Guest responding to Psy):
"Why would me asking questions keep people from posting here? Questions generate answers, one of which was yours. I encouraged you to post. Had I not posted, you would of not posted. You see? I created your post by asking a question."[/list]
Not a slip. I created your post too. If my original posts did not exist, you would have nothing to respond to. I created them. I created all the posts in response to my ideas and questions, psy's and yours not included.
"Inspiration," "instigation," "provocation," etc. ... perhaps. But "creation?" Only an arrogant fool, and/or someone with a poor grasp of the English language, would claim that.
:roflmao:
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Show me those 20 for every 1. Statements written inside the program don't count. Show me 20 people who have been out of a program discussed here for several years who still think it saved their lives (or every one who has been harmed). There is nothing preventing those people from posting here. The only reason why most of the stories on this site are negative in regards to a specific program is because most of the experiences were negative. There is nobody moderating the dialogue here and preventing positive experiences from being talked about. If over 95% of people had positive experiences in the programs discussed here as you claim, this site would be overflowing with praise.
Actually, I need to disagree here, when there is failure people search for reasons why it failed more often then the successful ones search for why it was successful. Its human nature. If you had a bad experience with a dentist or cosmetic procedure you are very motivated to get out there and rattle some cages because you are pissed. The ones who had experienced successful procedures are off looking good and feeling good about themselves. How many times have you called Wal-Mart to tell them your Television is working great? Now how motivated would you be to call if you got your set home and it didn’t work?
Look at PETA,SPCA they focus mostly on all the negative experiences that animals are subjected to. They are targeting a very small minority. Most people treat animals very well and I dont think I could name one industry which is dedicated to just talking about the positive side of animal treatment. Very little money is used to look at the positive side of how people treat their animals. The reason is that this is the norm. The same with the Struggling teen industry. The norm is that kids get the help they need and if something goes wrong with a few of them then forums are created, like this one,to discuss it.
Interesting point, but the reason there is very little money spent on the positive side is that is not the side that needs changing. PETA is focusing on the side that needs to change. I agree with you that it is a small piece compared with the number of people who treat their animals well. The same can be said with the teen enslavement industry. We focus on the negative because we want change in that area. Like you said the majority of the kids may be helped and you may be right, but there are no statistics to support that. It wouldnt matter anyway, even if one kid is abused wouldnt you want to prevent that?
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Oh wow, missed this..
Look at PETA,SPCA they focus mostly on all the negative experiences that animals are subjected to.
lol. You should have your anus smoked for comparing PETA to SPCA. PETA = crazy, self-important hippies who spend their funding on gimmicky ad campaigns instead of actually helping animals, and actually deserve a big fat syringe full of the "pink juice of death" themselves. SPCA = animal rescue organization that seeks to adopt strays and rescues out, and works closely with local animal care and control.
They are targeting a very small minority. Most people treat animals very well
Is that the same as Bill O'Retard's "some say" rule? most people = people who I know who have pets.. which really isnt most people.. that's a bit of people. I have no idea whether most people treat pets well, and also have no idea on how something like that would be measured, unless someone is convicted for animal abuse and has a record. Do you have access to such records?
Anyway, I find this to be far more interesting than whatever the original topic was.
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Dam those southern California women who have no reason to ever wear a fur coat or any coat. What do they have to give up? They have unfulfilling home lives with their husbands so they get naked and draw stripes on themselves and sit in cages all day to get the attention they would like to get at home. Most of them could care less about fur coats because it never gets below 70 degrees in their area of the country. Put them up in Alaska for a few weeks and I am sure they would suffocate a Walrus with their bare hands to build a coat. They are the most useless organization I have ever seen. What hypocrites.
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Whooter stay out of this conversation, you have nothing to add as you have never experienced the negative side of this industry or the imaginary postive side. You brought up this point years ago and I proved to you then that your point was invalid. This industry isnt creating a product, there are no exchanges or rain checks, a child being coerced, abused, and brainwashed is not the same thing as a faulty microwave. If that wasnt enough I showed you where the majority of rape victims do not report having been attacked, its human nature to often want to simply try and forget about horrific things that are done to you on an individual basis.
To the OP my question remains; Why do you believe the programs that have failed did so? Also, would you consider getting a username. It makes communication much easier. :soapbox:
Robert Bruce,
Were you involved in the "negative side" of the industry? Please discuss in detail.
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It wouldn't be the first program survivor on fornits who did their fair share of abusing.
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funny, how an already weak PFC,went bu-bye,once some 'program vets' started telling some truth to parents.Funny how obvious fact erodes bullshit.
See its one thing to rant on& on in a forum,protesting is the next step up,and yet others in a more,less obvious way,find "access" to parents and sow seeds of doubt and instead of a rant/rave,do things in a more deliberate,less obvious way.
hmm.......what would miller newton do?????
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OP you still havent answered the question.
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Bruce, you post this on every thread. What was the question?
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If you aren't the OP then the question wasn't directed towards you anyway, so why do you care? If you are its on the bottom of page 2. So then what's your answer?
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You haven't achieved anything. Parents can still choose to send their kids wherever they want. No regulation has been passed, which means, at best, you are asking parents to pwitty pwease don't send your kid to the mean progwam that hurt me. What has worked, is the free market. Parents don't pay money to have their kids treated badly, they want them to be helped, treated and saved. Better programs attract these parents, and older programs fall. You are attributing the natural evolution of the industry as your own personal achievement. I'm calling bullshit on that.
Why is it you personally think those other programs failed?
If you aren't the OP then the question wasn't directed towards you anyway, so why do you care?
Some of this thread has yielded some interesting contributions. You might not be aware of how much like the who you seem when you get vague and perseverate.
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Robert Bruce,
Do you still rape goats? You still have not answered the question.
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Some of this thread has yielded some interesting contributions. You might not be aware of how much like the who you seem when you get vague and perseverate
I havent been vauge by any means, I'm just still waiting on you to answer the question.
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Robert Bruce,
You have still not answered the question. Do you rape goats? Are you "The Who?"
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The typical life cycle for a fornits poster seems to be like this. They find fornits and start remembering way back when they were in a program that sucked. They naturally get angry and realize what happened was wrong. They vent and post about what happened. Then they decide to 'do something about it'. They try for a little while and nothing happens. Then they disappear, never to be heard from again.
There' s a long list of wannabe activists who have made there way through here, making grandiose claims about their intentions and what they will do to stop programs. Usually the more grand the claims the quicker they seem to vanish. I don't mean to harp on survivors only, probably more of these types of people are just regular people who never went to a program and are just outraged by a news article they read or something, or a family member of a survivor.
Why does this happen so much? Do they get disillusioned with fornits? Do they realize their efforts are fruitless?
Why is it that every attempt to organize an anti-program movement, in any way, has resulted in complete and utter failure?
Not going to read the entire thread, but I'll point out that Psy's website and protest of Benchmark cost them a shit ton of money. I do see where you are going and I'll address some of what you are saying from my own point of view about wannabe activists.
Activism probably has more downsides than it does upsides. You spend most of your time underfire from every asshole under the sun that is against and supposed to be with you. Hell I've taken my fair of shots and given many more of them as well to both sides. The YLF drove me to a near date with a mental asylum, but I don't regret trying to make a go of it. Though my heart was in the job of protesting programs the fact that I'm also a horrendously notorious asshole and random flake that found it hilarious to troll my own members makes me the least likely canidate to run any sort of activism group.
The qualities of a true activist, I think anyway, are those with complete willingness to ignore majority of the population of the crowd thinks. You really have to be a tough son of a bitch who is willing to stick to those principles that you truly believe in. Take a true died in the wool hell raiser like Rich Bradbury and you'll find a guy who is willing to piss in the face of most of Florida's Republican establishment.
That guy really doesn't give a fuck what the mainstream thinks. Good for him because he's right and the mainstream is dead wrong.
Those who truly care about this issue tend to work on quietly or they are incredibly determined.
Take Cafety, I don't much agree with where they are going with it, but I'll give them credit for not pussing out when half the universe was trying to kick them in the face. You don't often find that kind of persistence these days (btw... thank you for not electing Alex P to your board of directors ).
FICA, under the helm of Kathy Moya, was practically trolled off the forums for proposing to take a bit of money for investigating programs. On her behalf she was only trying to find ways to keep her website afloat. But other minds, like mine (bleh not one of my finer moments), decided to go at the lady hammer and tongs rather than trying to find ways to help her out. Luckily for all of us Kathy is one of those rare gems that isn't easily discouraged and we are all fortunate to still have her out there with FICA.
Now people get all up in arms about activists and such needing to work together. We tried to create a united from with www.troubledteens (http://www.troubledteens) (?) and that blew up with that nutty kid Kevin doing a naughty dance on youtube. Despite this Anti-wwasp is still up and running and they are still beating the drum about WWASP being one of the pits of hell. Also, despite the eternal flame wars of fornits people are still quietly working away on their own projects.
They don't get half the recognition that they really ought to be getting either.
If you want to make a change against programs you don't need belong to an organization. I tried that myself and I don't play well with others. You don't need to start your own organization either. I did that number and again I figured out quickly it wasn't my cup o' tea. If you really want to help be ready to help when others need it. Lots of organizations like CAFETY, HEAL, ISAC, FICA and so forth do need man power.
Us dwellers of cyberia have the choice of helping with those projects we see fit to assist with. What would be really damn cool is if we had like a help wanted sort of listing here on fornits where the orgs could put up requests for assistance.
Help if you want, or fap to porn if you don't wanna.
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To the original poster: you bojangle too much, give it a rest. You and dickheads of your ilk are the reason longtime posters quit logging in. The post program anger you mention? It doesn't go away, even if the poster is run off by abusive trolls. Why identify yourself when assholes like John D. Reuben and his STICC pal Lon Woodbury can exploit that information in an attempt to silence victims?
I avoid the TTI forum. If you want to maintain your focus on shutting down the industry, stick to the moderated forums where John and Lon are too scared to spew their black bile.
OP, I thought the idea of posting planned protests and actions had to be the brainchild of a program backing kid pimp. Who else would want advance notice? A lesson was learned - organize off the forum and write it up afterward. These days I post choice misinformation for people like ... you, OP.
Let me end with a question to the OP: Why is it the TTI is unable to prevent the wave of program closures that are decimating the incomes of noble individuals like Lon Woodbury and Sue Scheff? Don't worry about Fornits, you have worse troubles. Isn't it amazing how RTC's are no longer the "life or death" solution when parents don't want to spend the money. It makes you realize how "necessary" program placements really are. When cash was not an issue, parents shipped their kids off and out of their hair. Now the money well is a piss puddle and parents are having to raise their teens. I would consider that a positive change, except there are too many parents out there like John D. Reuben.
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Fornits Home for Wayward Web Fora, in my opinion, has affected few programs. How many programs has this website seriously affected? I cannot think of many. There are few Fornits members who think there are positive aspects of programs. The general view is, "They are all gulags." People who think like this hold on to their resentment. I think there are several forum members who should get therapy because they have nothing better to do than protest programs.
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Fornits Home for Wayward Web Fora, in my opinion, has affected few programs. How many programs has this website seriously affected? I cannot think of many. There are few Fornits members who think there are positive aspects of programs. The general view is, "They are all gulags." People who think like this hold on to their resentment. I think there are several forum members who should get therapy because they have nothing better to do than protest programs.
I think you have far too much time on your hands, and should seriously consider a career more appreciative of your righteous indignation and pulp psychology background.
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I think you have far too much time on your hands, and should seriously consider a career more appreciative of your righteous indignation and pulp psychology background.
What state do you live in?
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Fornits Home for Wayward Web Fora, in my opinion, has affected few programs. How many programs has this website seriously affected? I cannot think of many. There are few Fornits members who think there are positive aspects of programs. The general view is, "They are all gulags." People who think like this hold on to their resentment. I think there are several forum members who should get therapy because they have nothing better to do than protest programs.
k.
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Fornits Home for Wayward Web Fora, in my opinion, has affected few programs. How many programs has this website seriously affected? I cannot think of many. There are few Fornits members who think there are positive aspects of programs. The general view is, "They are all gulags." People who think like this hold on to their resentment. I think there are several forum members who should get therapy because they have nothing better to do than protest programs.
How many programs has this website seriously affected? This is a fair question. Will trolls provide proof or take their pot shots?
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How many programs has this website seriously affected?
Not exactly sure how HTML, cascading style sheets, or javascript can affect a program. Not even sure how one could catalog that. "I would have gotten away with it, too, if it weren't for that damn pesky website."
Normally people do these sorts of things, and I can only account for myself, not a website I frequent, which was authored by someone else, and is visited by lots of other people whom I have no control over, nor desire to. (It's a goddamn forum, not a political organization.)
I can safely say that I have affected no programs whatsoever.
I have affected people who were thinking on sending kids to programs, or who had a kid in one.
I have affected my friends who are parents (two of whom are also teachers), who know of my history, and who have carried on that understanding to people contemplating sending kids away.
I've written a couple of things, filmed stuff, etc. Maybe it resonated with someone. Maybe not.
Due to the fact that I am a crazy fuck, there are a couple of therapists and one shrink who now are aware of these places and would never recommend one to a troubled parent.
I haven't done shit to programs, because I don't care about them.
I care about the people who are affected by them, or who could be affected by them.
I refuse to be a crusader. Let other people deal with that shit.
I just hang out with my peeps.
Maybe, hopefully, that did something, somewhere.
Maybe not.
Maybe.. you should be asking yourself what YOU have done, not some website. And if you don't want to do anything, well, then, why the fuck do you care what happens to these places, anyway? Unless you just want to be snotty and try to ruffle some feathers and piss people off. (Not like thats ever happened here.)
All I know is. Im hungry, and Im going to have a sandwich now.
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How many shcools has this website seriously affected?
TAC wrote, "I can safely say that I have affected no programs whatsoever." You, I suspect SEVERAL OTHERS, will say "I have not affected programs whatsoever." Thanks for answering my question.
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"I would have gotten away with it, too, if it weren't for that damn pesky website."
This is pretty much what they all say when they see ISAC and what Benchmark said when they got reamed by Psy.
People do things. Websites are only informative, or disinformative when people like the OP come around. The OP is probably whining hard because a potential victim's parents saw Fornits and bailed. (And no, 99% of the parents who read Fornits will not post here under any circumstances. Why the fuck would they?) Fornits members file lawsuits, begin protests, hack e-mail, personally or online pull parents aside and go "Yeaaah... you really don't want to do this. Here's why.", and warn kids. Fornits members are the reason no pro-program discussion board stays even *visible* to the public for long, as most of us have no problems mocking them mercilessly (a thing they cannot stand, to be sure) and some of us drop dox on everyone and anyone we can find.
Aside from the already-enumerated attacks on programs (mayhaps the most recent troll simply forgot how to read previous pages of this topic?) Fornits members deplete enrollment, and then the program owners, who can never, ever admit anything might be going wrong, not even to themselves, blame the economy.
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Fornits members file lawsuits, begin protests, hack e-mail, personally or online pull parents aside and go "Yeaaah... you really don't want to do this.
How many Fornits members have filed lawsuits? How any Fornits members have protested? How many Fornits members have hacked e-mal accounts?
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Lawsuits are fairly common. A number of parents whose kids were murdered showed up here (No. Seriously. Parents with murdered kids show up here. That's no joke. (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=278502#p278502) Read the whole thread.), file a lawsuit, and then usually don't show up here again. Fornits members also encourage non-members to file suit. Who cares? Websites don't do things, people do things.
Protests? Dozens of people here. Go trawl the Straight board.
Email hacking? Just one, or two, it isn't very clear whether Well Proxied is Gookin's butt buddy or just his imaginary friend.
I notice you didn't ask about who here depletes enrollment or warns kids; that would be about everyone here except for the ed-cons, program employees, mentally maimed parents, and the really, really evil assholes who send parents of kids they don't like WWASPS literature...
Watching you try to convinct yourself that the hatred you've spawned isn't circling back at you is fun, but needs to be dismissed. Because it is. People systematically, intentionally destroying you is a direct result of what you do to children. Tough love leads directly to tough hate. You do evil, you spawn evil, you get hit by the results of your evil. Whoops. Why do you think it's whack-a-mole? Why do you think programs need to change their names so often? They're trying to dodge responsibility for their actions. Unfortunately, this is the age of the Internet and eternal logs. Nothing you do will get swept under the rug anymore, no matter how much time has passed. (Please don't pretend "but we don't do that anymore" means anything. It doesn't work.)
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You, I suspect SEVERAL OTHERS, will say "I have not affected programs whatsoever." Thanks for answering my question.
lol. I didn't answer your question. I said what *I* have not done, not what this website has or has not done.
Unless you think I'm some sort of mouthpiece for everyone else here, which Im not.
You're silly. You think you get answers to questions that are stupid. I go to all the trouble to point out the fallacy of your logic and it goes right over your head.
Do you view the forum as this single entity where everyone is joined in solidarity to eradicate programs under the name of the fornits flag?
My response to that is: LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
What fucking world do you live in?
This is what people call a forum. It is a place on the internet (i.e. a series of tubes) where folks, bots, and mudkips of all opinions and stripes come to troll each other or just talk shit. Normally it is run by some sort of script or code which allow people to write out their responses and post them so others can read and respond if they feel like it, from the comfort and safety of their own cum-encrusted keyboards. The information is stored in a database on a server which is stored on a satellite orbiting a planet whose identity has yet to be disclosed.
Forums *can* do a few things, however.
1. Create butthurt
2. Force memes
3. Humiliate some idiot who fucked a dog or posted a video of themselves baaawing about Brittney
4. Introduce everyone to people who can stretch their assholes wide enough to hold a lawn jockey
5. Close swimming pools
6. Demonstrate how to fuck up homophones or misplace apostrophes
7. Provide a safe place for furfags, yaoi whores, Internet Tough Guys, and people who think they are Special (i.e. have aspergers) to revel in their general retardedness behind the safety of anonymity
8. Swing the banhammer
9. ??????????
10. Profit!
I hope this has helped you understand what a forum is, and will also demonstrate that no forum, anywhere, can do shit about anything. All political activities are strictly extracurricular and optional.
Also, my sandwich was very good. :rasta:
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Unless you think I'm some sort of mouthpiece for everyone else here, which Im not.
You're silly. You think you get answers to questions that are stupid. I go to all the trouble to point out the fallacy of your logic and it goes right over your head.
Do you view the forum as this single entity where everyone is joined in solidarity to eradicate programs under the name of the fornits flag?
My response to that is: LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
What fucking world do you live in?
This is what people call a forum. It is a place on the internet (i.e. a series of tubes) where folks, bots, and mudkips of all opinions and stripes come to troll each other or just talk shit. Normally it is run by some sort of script or code which allow people to write out their responses and post them so others can read and respond if they feel like it, from the comfort and safety of their own cum-encrusted keyboards. The information is stored in a database on a server which is stored on a satellite orbiting a planet whose identity has yet to be disclosed.
Forums *can* do a few things, however.
1. Create butthurt
2. Force memes
3. Humiliate some idiot who fucked a dog or posted a video of themselves baaawing about Brittney
4. Introduce everyone to people who can stretch their assholes wide enough to hold a lawn jockey
5. Close swimming pools
6. Demonstrate how to fuck up homophones or misplace apostrophes
7. Provide a safe place for furfags, yaoi whores and Internet Tough Guys to revel in their general retardedness behind the safety of anonymity
8. Swing the banhammer
9. ??
10. Profit!
I hope this has helped you understand what a forum is, and will also demonstrate that no forum, anywhere, can do shit about anything. All political activities are strictly extracurricular and optional.
Also, my sandwich was very good.
:waaaa:
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96 tears
I'm sorry, I didnt know that you wanted a sandwich, too.
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The typical life cycle for a fornits poster seems to be like this. They find fornits and start remembering way back when they were in a program that sucked. They naturally get angry and realize what happened was wrong. They vent and post about what happened. Then they decide to 'do something about it'. They try for a little while and nothing happens. Then they disappear, never to be heard from again.
There' s a long list of wannabe activists who have made there way through here, making grandiose claims about their intentions and what they will do to stop programs. Usually the more grand the claims the quicker they seem to vanish. I don't mean to harp on survivors only, probably more of these types of people are just regular people who never went to a program and are just outraged by a news article they read or something, or a family member of a survivor.
Why does this happen so much? Do they get disillusioned with fornits? Do they realize their efforts are fruitless?
Why is it that every attempt to organize an anti-program movement, in any way, has resulted in complete and utter failure?
it is true, but not in my case.
Fornits was instrumental in helping expose hidden lake academy, which eventually led to a lawsuit, bankruptcy, and general turmoil and hardship for the school's proprietors and administrators. There were a few posters who have been coming to fornits since the day they left hidden lake, and remained true to the mission until they saw that the school was on it's deathbed [5 years in some cases].
but hidden lake is a special case, and what you said is pretty true for most other schools. hidden lake, in the headmaster's words, was "the harvard of therapeutic boarding schools". they never delivered on their promises, yet charged insane amounts of money. it was like a candy-coated rotten egg. they tried to make things look nice on the surface, but on the inside the place was an ugly hellhole run by truly soulless people. Because of the high tuition, usually only the really rich kids attended, with really rich parents that had resources. rich kids are spoiled kids, they like to complain alot. poor kids are used to being shat on so they take it in stride. but rich kids are a different breed. you get them angry, you'll never hear the end of it. that was hidden lake's problem, their formula for long term financial success was waay off. if you want to survive, you have to prey on the ignorant middle-class, not the upper class.
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if you want to survive, you have to prey on the ignorant middle-class, not the upper class.
Tell that to Scientology. Truth is everybody's a potential mark.
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scientology is an international cult with billions of dollars in assets and hundreds of thousands of followers, along with very high-profile celebrity figureheads. they have a support system and heirarchy that rivals many corporations. they can prey on the rich because they are equipped to do so.
Hidden lake was a small business which is most definitely not equipped to deal with the demands of the upper-class clientele it desired.
comparing the two is like comparing your local computer repair shop to Microsoft.
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The typical life cycle for a fornits poster seems to be like this. They find fornits and start remembering way back when they were in a program that sucked. They naturally get angry and realize what happened was wrong. They vent and post about what happened. Then they decide to 'do something about it'. They try for a little while and nothing happens. Then they disappear, never to be heard from again.
There' s a long list of wannabe activists who have made there way through here, making grandiose claims about their intentions and what they will do to stop programs. Usually the more grand the claims the quicker they seem to vanish. I don't mean to harp on survivors only, probably more of these types of people are just regular people who never went to a program and are just outraged by a news article they read or something, or a family member of a survivor.
Why does this happen so much? Do they get disillusioned with fornits? Do they realize their efforts are fruitless?
Why is it that every attempt to organize an anti-program movement, in any way, has resulted in complete and utter failure?
it is true, but not in my case.
Fornits was instrumental in helping expose hidden lake academy, which eventually led to a lawsuit, bankruptcy, and general turmoil and hardship for the school's proprietors and administrators. There were a few posters who have been coming to fornits since the day they left hidden lake, and remained true to the mission until they saw that the school was on it's deathbed [5 years in some cases].
but hidden lake is a special case, and what you said is pretty true for most other schools. hidden lake, in the headmaster's words, was "the harvard of therapeutic boarding schools". they never delivered on their promises, yet charged insane amounts of money. it was like a candy-coated rotten egg. they tried to make things look nice on the surface, but on the inside the place was an ugly hellhole run by truly soulless people. Because of the high tuition, usually only the really rich kids attended, with really rich parents that had resources. rich kids are spoiled kids, they like to complain alot. poor kids are used to being shat on so they take it in stride. but rich kids are a different breed. you get them angry, you'll never hear the end of it. that was hidden lake's problem, their formula for long term financial success was waay off. if you want to survive, you have to prey on the ignorant middle-class, not the upper class.
LoL@ spoiled rich kids taking down programs. You sure come up with creative ways to pat yourselves on the back here at fornits, when all you really are is complainers and quitters.
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really? i was a staff. I'm speaking out of personal observation from both inside and outside confines of the program. The students were rich kids, and the students are the ones primarily responsible for the damage done. Rich kids like to be heard. they go from luxury to shit, so they have something to complain about. poor kids go from shit to slightly shittier, so they have little complain about. Rich kids have rich parents who have money to pay to sic lawyers on people that wrong them. it's simple logic, and the facts are well-established. Without the students, parents would not have been involved. without parents, the lawyers would not have been involved. without the students information, inter-parent communication, and the lawyers, the enrollment would not have gone down to the current levels (about 10 kids, in a school that used to have 200).
complainers and quitters are everywhere. A group's effectiveness is not determined by the people who quit, it's determined by the people who stay and finish the job. You dont need a hundred lazy rich kids typing out one post a month, all you need is half a dozen dedicated individuals, which is what there was on the HLA board.
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really? i was a staff. I'm speaking out of personal observation from both inside and outside confines of the program. The students were rich kids, and the students are the ones primarily responsible for the damage done. Rich kids like to be heard. they go from luxury to shit, so they have something to complain about. poor kids go from shit to slightly shittier, so they have little complain about. Rich kids have rich parents who have money to pay to sic lawyers on people that wrong them. it's simple logic, and the facts are well-established. Without the students, parents would not have been involved. without parents, the lawyers would not have been involved. without the students information, inter-parent communication, and the lawyers, the enrollment would not have gone down to the current levels (about 10 kids, in a school that used to have 200).
complainers and quitters are everywhere. A group's effectiveness is not determined by the people who quit, it's determined by the people who stay and finish the job. You dont need a hundred lazy rich kids typing out one post a month, all you need is half a dozen dedicated individuals, which is what there was on the HLA board.
SHAME ON YOU
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sorry, i dont believe in shame. shame leads to addictions (accoring to billybob's big tome of addiction "truths" :roflmao: ). being a pro-program troll and likely program employee or administrator, you know damn well all about shame.
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sorry, i dont believe n shame
Only a true sociopath could declare such a thing.
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shame and remorse are two different feelings.
shame is brought on by society.
remorse is brought on by one's own conscience.
one is relevant, the other is not.
to be a psychopath, you must have no remorse, not shame.
i have no shame for anything. i do have remorse. I do not have any remorse for taking away len buccelatto's money-making potential.
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sorry, i dont believe n shame
Only a true sociopath could declare such a thing.
Well... personally, I do think the ability to feel "shame" is a natural part of moral development. However, what is practiced in programs has often absolutely no relation to moral development, and is far more focused on subjugation by whatever means. You could say it actually retards genuine moral development.
"Shame and Blame... kinda like Shake and Bake, 'cept for children."
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You idiots will use whatever excuse needed to make yourselves feel better. I've never seen such a deluded set of cultees as right here on fornits. The reality is you are worse than the people you claim to be fighting. Worse by far!
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You idiots will use whatever excuse needed to make yourselves feel better. I've never seen such a deluded set of cultees as right here on fornits. The reality is you are worse than the people you claim to be fighting. Worse by far!
Hello from the "PROBLEM SLEEPING" thread!
I see you are making your rounds.
Tell me something, truthfully. Do you by any chance look like Millhouse?