Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Anonymous on August 15, 2003, 07:12:00 PM
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DO YOUR RESEARCH, PARENTS THAT SENT THEIR KIDS TO HIGH IMPACT PAID R&B BILLING (ROBERT AND BRENT) SAME AS ALL THE OTHER PARENTS THAT SEND KIDS TO THE OTHER PROGRAMS. ISNT TRUE THAT MOST OF THE WWASPS SCHOOLS REFERRED ALL THEIR SO CALLED HARD KIDS TO HIGH IMPACT? NOW THEY GO TO TB. ALL THE SAME BS.
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Yes, I'm sure they did pay WWASPS billing people. Their kid was still enrolled at their program while they attended the boot camp.
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Please see my post under the PURE Rebuttal - It All Makes Sense Now thread, page 7
judy
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Rocky Mountain News:
Lou Kilzer
News Staff Writer
Mexican officials have removed a 14-year-old Colorado girl and seven other teens from a compound connected to Utah-based Teen Help, the latest in a series of crackdowns on the organization.
Child welfare workers found the conditions deplorable at the High Impact locked compound near Tecate in Baja California, Mexico, according to authorities at the United States Consulate in Tijuana.
``They were all extremely dirty,'' consulate spokesman Clint Wright said of the teens living there. ``Some of the kids had calluses and blisters on their feet from being made to do a lot of laps around the place without wearing proper shoes.''
He said the teens were forced to lie on their stomachs, with their chins on the ground, for hours at a time.
Mexican authorities said they found that tents had blown down and children had been forced to sleep in bathrooms, according to U.S. diplomats.
The Colorado girl complained of blisters and a sunburn, officials said. They would release no details about the girl, who was one of the last to leave High Impact.
The Teen Help organization offers services to parents of troubled children. The parents often attend rigorous psychological encounter sessions, while their children are sent to behavior modification camps in the United States and overseas.
Some mental health professionals have described some of the techniques in the adult seminars and at the compounds as ``coercive persuasion.''
Parents often pay more than $3,000 a month for tuition. A typical stay can last 18 months or longer.
Parents said High Impact is an integral part of the Teen Help empire - a place to send kids who are ``not working the program.''
Officials first inspected the High Impact facility Dec. 5. The World Wide Association of Specialty Schools - an umbrella group for many Teen Help-related programs - immediately began withdrawing its clients from High Impact. When the compound was revisited on Dec. 8, eight remained. WWASP said one of the eight had come from its program.
The teens were taken into protective custody, according to the consulate. Allegations of unsanitary conditions at High Impact are untrue, said Ken Kay, head of the WWASP. ``I mean, it was the cleanest place I ever saw,'' he said.
But Chris Goodwin of San Francisco said his son was forced to stay outside in his underpants for three nights, lying on his stomach with his chin on the ground. If he moved to try to brush off fire ants that roamed over him, he was threatened with a cattle prod, said Goodwin. The punishment left scars on his son's chin, he said.
The Utah organization tried last week to distance itself from High Impact. Kay said the only association WWASP had with High Impact was that it occasionally sent children there. ``I know you probably think I'm playing dumb,'' said Kay. ``And that's good, because I probably am dumb.''
Records suggest that WWASP has a closer relation to High Impact. High Impact's Web page is on a Web service called parentresources.net. That site advertises Teen Help and WWASP programs, and its phone number connects to Teen Help in Utah. The person who manages the Web site has managed Teen Help.
High Impact's billing is controlled by R&B Billing, a company owned by Robert Lichfield in Utah, according to records obtained by the News. Lichfield created the Teen Help programs.
Payments to WWASP and High Impact have the same St. George, Utah, mailing address. And parent identification codes remain the same when a child goes from a WWASP program to High Impact, and vice versa, according to internal records.
Though the facilities are owned by various individuals, the money first passes through Lichfield's concerns in southern Utah, where most of it remains, Kay told the News.
But Dace Goulding, who runs Casa by the Sea, a WWASP program in Ensanada, Mexico, said he doesn't know of any relationship between High Impact and WWASP. He also said he had no knowledge of teens from Casa by the Sea going to High Impact.
That was news to Goodwin. He said that after his son was having troubles at Casa, Goulding called and told him to send his son to High Impact. He said Goulding sold it to him as a camping experience.
What his son found, instead, was ``torture,'' according to Goodwin. After his son and another boy got into a fight, the staff beat both and then put them in the High Impact position, he said.
``They were flat on their stomachs, hands behind their back as if they're handcuffed, chin out straight, resting on the ground. My kid said he stayed like that in a pool of blood all night long on the first night. They were freezing their butts off.''
Goodwin said his son spent three nights in the High Impact position.
Goulding said he didn't know Chris Goodwin or his son.
Stephanie Hecker of Kansas City said her son experienced the same treatment.
High Impact isn't the first Teen Help-related program to run into trouble with authorities.
* A compound near Cancun, Mexico, was closed after a newspaper reported child abuse allegations.
* Police in the Czech Republic closed WWASP's Morava Academy, again citing abuse allegations. Police alleged kids were sometimes isolated, denied food and handcuffed.
* A Teen Help psychiatric hospital in St. George was shut following an investigation into an abuse complaint.
* A WWASP program in Western Samoa closed after American diplomats received what they called ``credible'' allegations of abuse.
* And last Monday, child welfare officials made an unannounced visit to Casa by the Sea, removing five children for private interviews.
Goulding, the director of the program, said he was unaware of the event. But Kay was.
``I just can't believe that they came in . . . with armed federales, removed five of the kids without the parents' permission or anything, and took them off to question them, and then brought them back,'' said Kay. ``The mayor of Ensanada is highly incensed.''
Of the Rocky Mountain News, which has raised questions about the program in recent years, Goulding said: ``Because of the work that you do, Casa by the Sea is thriving. I was going to send you a thank-you letter for that.''
He hung up the phone after telling a reporter: ``Please don't call me. I'll call you.''
Reread this paragraph. It is what I was referring to:
But Dace Goulding, who runs Casa by the Sea, a WWASP program in Ensanada, Mexico, said he doesn't know of any relationship between High Impact and WWASP. He also said he had no knowledge of teens from Casa by the Sea going to High Impact.
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Judy - haven't you figured out by now that newspapers kinda tend to slant their reports. Do you honestly believe Dace would deny sending kids to High Impact? Think about it. He may not be one of my favorite people, but that does not sound like him.
After the invasion - unannounced, the federales found nothing that would indicate abuse. Forgot to add that huh?
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Yeah I believe he said it. If he hadn't I'm certain he would have posted a statement on the BBS informing everyone that he had been "misquoted". You can also bet there would have been a lawsuit against the newspaper.
Judy
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High Impact was closed, must have found something.
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That's not exactly what I would say. There have been tons of misquotes of late and none of the parties involved have posted anything other than Ken Kay asking for our support in writing to Tim Weiner if we felt we wanted to. I haven't written to him, but a few have, I'm sure. Narvin, Jay, Dace, etc., have posted nothing on the BBS. What's your story, you sound so defensive and angry? Where was your kid and is he/she doing okay now?
Darlene
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How do you know they are being misquoted if they aren't posting anything? Did you personally hear the interviews?
Judy
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Judy-
I've read the newspaper articles. Clearly they have been either misquoted or a lot of information has been left out to suit the stories making it look like a misquote. But you know it really doesn't matter except to PURE and others that want to take at face value what they read.
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On 2003-08-15 17:07:00, Anonymous wrote:
After the invasion - unannounced, the federales found nothing that would indicate abuse. Forgot to add that huh?"
Is the same program where the parents of Ryan F, (Coldwater, The Movie) were allegedly forced to pay a $60,000 bribe as a condition for removing their child from the program?
:???:
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http://www.ryanfraidenburgh.com (http://www.ryanfraidenburgh.com)
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No connection between HI and WWASP, huh? BS !
How can such a unscrupulous organization even pretend to help teens?
Deborah
http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives/2001/8/np4.html (http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives/2001/8/np4.html)
Aug 2001 HIGH IMPACT BOOT CAMP Baja California, Mexico
Dwayne Lee, Admissions Coordinator ? Parent Resources Hotline
Hurricane, Utah 800-793-5156
[I called their web site number to ask some questions about the Parent Resources Hotline, identifying myself as an educational consultant. The person answering the phone informed me he was only authorized to send a packet of information and did not answer any of my questions. The packet I received included a photocopy of a letter from Dwayne Lee of Parent Resources Hotline, a Sample Daily Schedule for WWASP Programs, a brochure for High Impact, a Video Tape and a brochure for the World Wide Association of Specialty Programs: Casa by the Sea, Carolina Springs Academy, Cross Creek Academy, Spring Creek Lodge and Tranquility Bay. Apparently Parent Resources Hotline exclusively markets High Impact and WWASP programs.-Lon]
The audiotape sent with the promotional packet consisted of a number of testimonials by parents and ex-students, mostly, however, apparently referring to the long-term WWASP programs rather than High Impact. A price list was included for the various WWASP programs, but none for High Impact.
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And the HI website. There is no link to "About Us". No mention of staff, who they are, or anything... except links to WWASP programs.
http://www.parentresources.net/bootcamp ... tCamp.html (http://www.parentresources.net/bootcamps/highimpact/BootCamp.html)
28 Day High Impact Program
90 Day Boot Camp
Tranquility Bay
Renowned Specialty Boarding Schools
Casa by the Sea
Carolina Springs Academy
Spring Creek Lodge
Cross Creek Manor
Streaming Videos
Parent Resource Video
World Wide Association Video
Parent Resource Booklets
How to deal with defient teens
How to tell if your teen is using drugs
Copyright © 2001 Parent Recources Hotline
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Deborah ::rocker::
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The federales found abuse. That is why it was closed.
Dace asked all Casa parents to write to the American Emassy in Mexico expounding on how much they like their child's "school."
Jay Kay did the same thing recently when Dundee closed.
They have to ask the Cult followers to write.
Lies, lies more lies.
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Is Ryan, Chris Goodwin's son?
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Deborah - you have an abundant amount of information that you have no personal experience of. Anyone can write a story, but until you've had personal experience, you may want to stick to that which you do have experience of. By the way, where is YOUR child? I don't see where you've ever shared that tidbit.
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carey for someone that thinks she knows it all, you dont know the goodwins son? figure it out. why dont you email goodwins, oh thats right they wont communicate with you. :silly: . isnt that the words they used.
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Of course they think Carey is LOCO. She knows too much about the lies PURE has been spreading.
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Anon wrote:
Deborah - you have an abundant amount of information that you have no personal experience of. Anyone can write a story, but until you've had personal experience, you may want to stick to that which you do have experience of. By the way, where is YOUR child? I don't see where you've ever shared that tidbit.
*********
Direct experience with WWASP is not necessary to read and post articles and state my opinions. When you've seen one, you've seen them all. The differences are minor. It is obviously irritating to you WWASPers. The information I share is available on the internet for anyone who choose to look for it.
How would you know what experience I have?
And, you anon, seem to have personal experience but no information. Read up.
If you want to know about me, dig through the archives. I'm not about to serve it up for you.
Deborah
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Deborah - care to share where your child is incarcerated? Simple request.
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Is Ryan Chris Goodwin's son?
If I was asking a question, doesn't that mean I don't know? In my books that is what that means. You see, when I don't know something, I ask a question...I don't make it up as I go along. SOME PEOPLE DO!!
But then, it is not what I don't know that bothers you...no, it is what I do know that gets your goat.
carey for someone that thinks she knows it all, you dont know the goodwins son? figure it out.
By the way, why not just give a straight forward answer. Is Ryan Chris's son? Yes or No. This question is similar to "has the class action law suit been filed yet...if so, when and where."
Really simple question, is Ryan Chris's son?
This question is worth its weight in gold!
[ This Message was edited by: Carey on 2003-08-20 20:32 ]
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Carey asks:
"Is Ryan Chris's son? Yes or No. This question is similar to "has the class action law suit been filed yet...if so, when and where."
ANSWER: No
Carey also says:
"This question is worth its weight in gold!"
Really? Why?
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This was in my email this morning:
Jeez, Carey, I hoped you had dropped dead. Are we in for another wasted 2 or 3 weeks in the war against WWASP because you twist this into your own vendetta? And I thought for months you were a valuable ally because you wanted WWASPS destroyed. Boy, was I wrong. Oh, and if you forward this email to the forum, be sure and include all of it.
Sue Kolbo
Sue, would you mind telling me what part of what email I was not copied and pasted in its entirety?
Also, could you please provide the reasons for your statements above, outside of the fact that my opinions don't mirror yours?
And you asked why is it worth its weight in gold? I am trying to determine who is actually the lead plantiff. At one point it is stated that it is Ryan and in other places it is stated that it is Chris. Maybe there is more than one lead plantiff, I don't know. That is the reason why I ask questions, because I do not have all of the answers. But I can promise you this, what I do know and what I do say only states and deals with my very own personal experience, not that of what others tell me. I do not talk about things that I have not experienced first hand.
By the way Spots, I am not going anywhere.
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I forgot to put in my name and password.
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What the heck has Ryan F. done to help anybody besides himself? Take a look at his website. It's all about a 16 year old kid promoting himself as the hero of a FICTIONAL MOVIE.
:eek:
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[ This Message was edited by: KarenZ on 2003-10-17 17:03 ]
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That is a pretty general statement, Karen. Can you speak specifically about the "class action" suit against WWASP? Because I am not asking about "a" class action, I am asking about "the" class action that is being discussed on this forum.
[ This Message was edited by: Carey on 2003-08-21 08:10 ]
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On 2003-08-21 07:59:00, Anonymous wrote:
"What the heck has Ryan F. done to help anybody besides himself? Take a look at his website. It's all about a 16 year old kid promoting himself as the hero of a FICTIONAL MOVIE.
:eek:
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When and how did Ryan hear about this movie?
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I am totally confused. Ryan says his parents had to pay a "negotiated" bribe of $60,000.00 to get him out of the program he was in. WHY WOULD ANY PARENT HAVE TO DO SUCH A THING?
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There are two things that come to mind: 1- he was court ordered and they didn't pay "the program" but court fees?
Second - for sensationalism to sell the movie, cuz it didn't happen, wouldn't happen, can't happen.
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I definitly did not get the impression Ryan F. was court ordered into any treatment program. In fact, I believe the press reports said his parents heard about the program from friends at church and decided to enroll him in the program.
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So, what's the reason for the bribe? If it really took place then both parties are guilty of wrong doing.
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Yes, Ryan's parents were recruited by a member of their church (see link below) but reportedly didn't come to believe they had made a mistake until a couple of former residents contacted them and urged them to take Ryan out. As for the "ransom" payment of $60,000.00, it's hard to believe any parent would consent to such a thing, must less have the cash-on-hand. Guess we will just have to wait for the movie, but even then, since the movie is a fictional account based on a true story, there is no way to separate fact from fiction without additional documentation and verification. As for the media, one can only guess if Weiner triple-checked the credibility of his sources.
:eek:
http://www.coldwaterthemovie.com/ryan/index.html (http://www.coldwaterthemovie.com/ryan/index.html)
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It seems to all be a farce...Ryan's story, that is. Fiction...based on fact, how does that make any sense? Kinda seems like an oxymoron to me.
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I doubt if a Bribe is the correct scenerio. I would guess Ryan's parents paid for his 12 month tuition ,escort fee etc. His parents may have believed the wwasp fallacy of needing to give 120 day notice, an additional($3,000x4 months). The dollars add up fast.
Ryan is a kid .Give him a break.If he makes the big screen, big time,good for him. He has earned it.
My child is not aware of the massive dollars we spent on his "schooling" with wwasp either. Not his problem.
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[ This Message was edited by: KarenZ on 2003-10-17 17:05 ]
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Karen Z., you have said you removed your child from one of these programs. How long was your son in the program before you pulled him, why did you take him out and how much (if anything) did the program charge you to take your son out?
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Wait a minute, isn't it on Ryan's website. Isn't Ryan the one calling it a bribe? Shouldn't Ryan know whether or not it was a "bribe". Oh, I get it, that is part of the fiction that he is attesting to. ??????????? We are all just going to have to try and figure out when he is telling the truth and when he is not.
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There are many ways that a program will attempt to keep pre-paid tuition. They offer parents a discount for pre-paying, and it might be inticing, but parents should avoid it.
I took my ex to court demanding he bring our son home for Xmas, he'd been incarcerated since early Nov. I felt if I could get him back to our home state my chances of getting an injunction would be better.
The program (not WWASP) rep testified via telephone that my ex would loose $110K in pp tuition if our son left the program.
Their policy states that all pp tuition will be refunded whether the child is withdrawn or dismissed, minus that months tuition.
Well, I later spoke to several parents who were hiring attorneys to recover their pp tuition.
One mom told me that she had challenged them on their decision to send her son to their newly opened wilderness camp. She was labled adversarial and told her son would have to leave because she wasn't supporting the program.
A rendezvous was arranged at WalMart. He left with the clothes on his back.
They refused to refund her money, stating that he had been withdrawn.
Never pay in advance. They certainly aren't going to offer to refund if the parent doesn't know their rights.
Deborah
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When was Ryan taken out of the program? 2 years ago? WHEN and HOW did the NY Times hear about Ryan?
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Look, if it is Ryan calling it a bribe, then who and why should anyone else keep trying to explain it as something other than that.
If Ryan calls it a bribe, as he has on his website, then turns around and says it really was not a bribe, but tuition paid in full for the one year contract that his parents signed, then he is changing his own words to fit that of someone elses. He can't keep changing his words and his actions, he will lose whatever little bit of creditability he may have left. (Ex. He had his story posted on the PURE website, but then took it down upon request. He took it down because of the fact that his association with PURE could be seen as a conflict of interest.) Now if he changes his statement that the "bribe" was anything other than a "bribe", especially now with all of the contraversy surrounding his story, well then...what is his word worth?
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On 2003-08-21 19:25:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Karen Z., you have said you removed your child from one of these programs. How long was your son in the program before you pulled him, why did you take him out and how much (if anything) did the program charge you to take your son out?"
You said you got the referral off Woodbury's website. Can you be more specific????
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Has it occured to you that WHATEVER happened there was perceived as a "bribe" to him. May not fit the technical definition or your personal defintion, but obviously that's how he experienced it.
Why don't you go over to Voy, where he has posted, and ask him. Maybe he'll provide an explanation, or email him at his website. Since he's a plantiff he might not be able to share, but it's worth a try.
God forbid we have to endure the ongoing imaginings about the Ryan "bribe" until the lawsuit is over. What a curse that would be.
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Ryan stated he was at Casa by the Sea. The tuition was around $2,000/month - $24,000/year. No bribe - a parent could bring the munchkin home anytime they wanted. Time to put it to rest, he's sensationalizing for the movie ::argue:: - posting on other forums, talking to newspapers, and anyone who will pay him or build up interest in his abuse allegations. Must be tough living life as a victim.
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Deb - God forbid we are subjected to your expertise in surfing the web for quotes, links and your "in the box" insights to life.
I think you're a liar. You said you had kids in a "program." Bullshit! Where? I think your just another of PURE's alter egos making up stories.
Get off your ass and actually do something besides sit at this site 24/7. Got kids?? Bet they feel like little orphans next to your computer.
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Deborah's not a liar, nor a PURE alter ego. She has posted the account of what happened to her son on this forum and elsewhere enough times to where if you tried, you would have no trouble finding them. Second, you may not appreciate the topics that interest Deborah nor agree with her strong opinions and/or values and beliefs but that's your choice. Personally, I am open-minded and view her posts as opportunities to learn (or unlearn, as the case may be) and hope that others feel the same way. Lastly, this is a forum where it is rare to find anyone with an opinion that isn't subject to the same "in the box" insights to life you accuse Deborah of posting. In fact, you are reading one now.
:grin:
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On 2003-08-21 21:16:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2003-08-21 19:25:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Karen Z., you have said you removed your child from one of these programs. How long was your son in the program before you pulled him, why did you take him out and how much (if anything) did the program charge you to take your son out?"
You said you got the referral off Woodbury's website. Can you be more specific????"
Yes, it would be nice to know the answers to these questions in addition to any other information you can share about your experience.
:smile:
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[ This Message was edited by: KarenZ on 2003-10-17 17:08 ]
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See #8 Re: Karen Burnett (aka Karen Z.)
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=s ... 03consacti (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/sm/20030812/bs_sm/tenthingsseptember03consacti)
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Anon,
"My experience of you": You're rude and disrespectful.
You sound like a Task Seminar Sherpa. Back off. Your feedback is not welcome.
I enjoy Deb's post.Thank you Deborah for sharing your "in the box" posts.
I learn from them.
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carey,
Get over yourself! Tell the truth.
Ryan took his story off Pure because YOU harrassed him to.
Credibility? Practice what you preach.
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Carey,
I dont understand your ENVY with Ryan's success.
I dont see any one critizing you for your claim to fame in People's Magazine.
Share the spot light. There is plenty of roon for everyone.
The story needs to be told.
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Sorry to upset you ANON, however, Ryan is a problem, especially given he is a lead plantiff in the "class action". You know it and I know it. That is why it seems to upset you so badly.
Ryan took his story off Pure because YOU harrassed him to.
Are you saying that Ryan shifts his ties and , connections because people pressure him to do so?
Well if that is the case, then he can be pressured into making false statements too, don't you think? Who knows maybe he has already done so. It is possible given what you are saying.
First of all, I did not harrass him to do so. I simply told him Sue was very much one to be avoided, given her profession and all. Why do you people keep making things up? Why do you think "programmed parents" don't believe you. Well, that is why. You make constant accusations that are so far from the truth. Learn to be more careful about what you say and what you accuse people of, then maybe someone will believe you.
[ This Message was edited by: Carey on 2003-08-22 10:30 ]
[ This Message was edited by: Carey on 2003-08-22 10:30 ]
[ This Message was edited by: Carey on 2003-08-22 10:32 ]
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Educate me Carey.
What is the definition of a "lead plantiff" in a class-action?
And who, besides you, has identified him as such?
Deborah
PS I just went to his website. It reads:
"$60,000 RANSOM payment".
Who first refered to it as a "bribe"? Has his site been edited?
"Ransom" puts a whole different spin on it.
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From a conversation with Richard Wilf, Huron Law Group:
A class action suit is brought by all plaintiffs equally, no matter the number involved or even the identification of those plaintiffs before the action is filed. Ever see those newspaper ads or TV ads suggesting that you, John Q. Public, may be a bona fide plaintiff after the fact if you have such-and-such a set of circumstances? This suit welcomes any person who feels he has a legitimate claim, the legitimacy to be determined by The Court.
There is no "lead" plaintiff. The attorneys for the plaintiffs present their evidence, gathering whatever they feel pertinent, identifying the source as required by law for cross-examination.
Huron is a big-deal law firm, spending tons of their own money so far. Give them some credit! They, or The Court, are not going to let some kid rant and rave and "spoil" their case. Nor are they going to let some two-bit ed consultant-type company influence their decision. I'd be much more inclined to go with Huron's advice than I would from a bank employee whose claim to fame was a picture in People magazine.
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On 2003-08-21 22:56:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Deb - God forbid we are subjected to your expertise in surfing the web for quotes, links and your "in the box" insights to life.
I think you're a liar. You said you had kids in a "program." Bullshit! Where? I think your just another of PURE's alter egos making up stories.
Get off your ass and actually do something besides sit at this site 24/7. Got kids?? Bet they feel like little orphans next to your computer. "
Someone sure hit the nail on the head! LOL!
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Deborah, Ryan's website has been altered. He goes where the wind blows. Not surprisingly though. He learned from the best, PURE and Sue Scheff.
Spots, I understand exactly where you are coming from, you are feeling desperate. I have empathy for you. I was just as frightened for my boys as you are for your grandaughter.
[ This Message was edited by: Carey on 2003-08-22 12:00 ]
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Deborah, one more thing, changing it to ransom, is even more interesting. Ransom, defined as - the release of a detained person or property in return for payment. Detained, defined as - to hold in custody. Well, was Casa awarded custody of Ryan? Don't think so. Could not the parents have withdrawn him at any time?
Was Ryan kidnapped? Why did the parents need to pay a randsom? If the child was handcuffed and taken to Casa, via kidnapping, who paid for that? Are the parents guilty of kidnapping their own child and then turning around and paying a randsom to have him released? Come on...lets get real about all of this BS.
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There's a lot of speculating going on. Since no one here has direct knowledge of the details, the comments are just imaginings.
Why doesn't someone f-in ask him? What is so hard about that? Or would it draw an end to the endless debate, which many seemingly enjoy and the rest of us are tired of. The slams on Ryan and/or the "bribe" finds its way into totally unrelated threads.
And so he provides an answer. Would you believe it or if he didn't respond to your liking, he'd then be lying. What then, do we have to hear the imaginings until the record is completely worn out?
Whatever the word they/he decided to use, it would not surprise me if the program pulled some shit around money.
As for the TRUTH, no one here knows the truth, only Ryan and his folks. No one here is going to "prove" anything, just debate and debate and debate.
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Deborah, isn't that what you are doing on this forum, debating? Excuse me for not debating the topic of your choice.
You know, Ryan can do what ever he so wishes. If he wants to jump in and explain what in the hell he has meant by a "bribe" or "ransom" he is free to do so. Don't think for a minute he is not reading what is being posted here on this site. You would only be kidding yourself, if you do.
[ This Message was edited by: Carey on 2003-08-22 12:39 ]
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Carey,
Your information about lead plaintiff is inaccurate. Non of your business either.
My facts came form the horses mouth.
Your jealousy of Sue is boring. The horse has died quit beating it.
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To the anonymous with the facts straight from the horse's mouth ....
Obviously you have your facts confused with some major B.S. that came out of the mouth of a donkey's ass.
:smokin:
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Carey,
THIS debate is going nowhere and it doesn't appear that there will ever be a resolution. No new information is presented, no "proof" (is that possible?), and most importantly, no first-hand information from the horse's mouth. Just the same tired comments and imaginings repeated, ad nauseum.
The "debate" consists of you and your advarsaries calling each other liars. That's not a debate- in fact it's an arguement, a fued, a conflict, with no end in sight.
Personally, I don't care if the argument wages on forever- but out of common curteousy for others here, might you and your advarsaries consider containing the argument to its own thread titled "The ongoing Carey/Pure/Ryan/Karen? Argument". The rest of us could check in every month or two to see if anything pertinent has been posted.
Have you considered building your own website or creating your own forum? Would you allow your advarsaries to post there? Or would the lack of a public audience diminish the enthusiam, for both sides?
If you're trying to educate the public, it's not working well, in my opinion. Half the comments from both sides, make no sense to the general public, whom are not privy to the history of this fued.
You Pure folks- I resent you for banning Carey, then following her here, taking up space on someone else's server to continue the arguement.
And, I ask you with all sincerity-
Do you think you're ever going to "prove" that Ryan is lying?
What will have to occur for you to feel satisfied, resolved?
And, is there a liklihood of that ever happening?
You make the comment, "Don't think for a minute he is not reading what is being posted here on this site. You would only be kidding yourself, if you do."
Don't kid yourself. I could not care less if Ryan is reading here and not posting. It just doesn't matter to me, or alot of other people. And I can't imagine why you feel that should be important to me.
And so, if he was? What would that imply? Is he secretly gathering information? Is he a spy? If so, for who? Don't assume that I and others can read between the vague lines you provide. Stop hem-hawing and spit things out, don't attempt to give information to the public in the form of questions. Questions that lead to dead ends for most of us. The only people who might have an inkling about what you're inferring is you, and a handful of other people.
It's like this: I come on this board and I say Joe Scum is a dirt bag. I can't really expose all I know. I'll throw out questions every now and then- that the majority reading could not follow to any meaningful conclusion. But for the most part, I just want you to take my word. He's a liar and a sensationalist, and he's been manipulated by some evil people.
Does this make any sense to you at all?
Is your story, in its entirity, start to finish, including all your interactions with the different entities and personalities, posted in ONE place anywhere? If it is, you might consider adding the link to your signature. It could be helpful to those who attempt to understand.
Deborah
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[ This Message was edited by: KarenZ on 2003-10-17 17:12 ]
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On 2003-08-22 18:34:00, KarenZ wrote:
"Deb writes:
"The ongoing Carey/Pure/Ryan/Karen? Argument".
Please leave me out of this.
I am trying so very hard not to engage in any more of this; because your right, and I know it, and I want nothing more to do with it."
This coming from the person who initiated the smear campaign against Carey in retaliation for her anti-pure statements. What's wrong Karen Z., finally had enough of your own crap??!!
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Deborah,
When you start talking about things that do not interest me, I do not jump in and ask you to take your conversation somewhere else, as I am not interested in hearing it. Ex. the conversation on Mormons and abuse. I think that is far fetched and a very racist way of looking at the problem however, you and others seem to want to discuss, debate, whatever else you may want to call it. Discuss it to your hearts content. You want to talk about it and others seem to want to join in. No problem, So be it, go ahead. I am not interested, therefore I have nothing to add or take away from your converstation. And you know what, I am not going to tell you to take your conversation somewhere else. Start your own thread about you and your obsession with Mormons as I find it confusing and boring.
Stop hem-hawing and spit things out, don't attempt to give information to the public in the form of questions. Questions that lead to dead ends for most of us. The only people who might have an inkling about what you're inferring is you, and a handful of other people.
Exactly what don't you understand about anything I have said? You know exactly what I am talking about when I address topics such as Ryan, PURE etc. You may not have an interest and that is fine...DON'T READ IT. My feelings won't be hurt.
I ask questions for two reasons. One, because I don't have all of the answers. Two, because sometimes I think others need to be challenged to think for themselves. I am not here to just state a fact as I may know it and expect programed parents to believe me, just because I said so.
I really do not care if you do not want to hear what I have to say. If you are looking for a place where everyone is on the same page then join the BBS or join PURE's listserv. This is an open forum and you can choose to write what you want to write and read what you want to read. This holds true for both you and me.
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Deborah that was from me.
One more thing, when did I ever say Ryan was a liar? Never. I don't know whether or not the kid is telling the truth. I don't claim to know that. I am just giving people something to think about. Why is that so threatning to everyone?
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Yes Karen, you better stay out of it, you don't want to end up putting your foot in your mouth again.
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***This coming from the person who initiated the smear campaign against Carey in retaliation for her anti-pure statements. What's wrong Karen Z., finally had enough of your own crap??!!
Perfect example. Can you provide a link where others might read about the smear campaign? Or are we just supposed to take your word for it? Hell, we don't even know who you are. Why would we?
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I haven't been reading this site or following this thread closely...I have don't have much time or patience for the on-going saga of the teen-help section of Antigen's larger site. I am not privy or informed on Ryan's experiences. But I'll tell you this, the shit that I personally endured and witnessed at Straight, Inc in the 1970's was far above most things people could even believe. When I tell people things like seeing an an 11 year old boy hog tied and hoisted upside down. And witnessesing staff call out kids from the group to smack him with a broom. While it didn't appear that he was getting hit terribly hard, the terror on that childs face is something I will never forget. So if a survivor tells me that they saw this or say that this happended to him or her, I believe 'em. Guess its one of those, you had to be there things.
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i think it wwasp people trying to get others to keep posting diverting the real subject, now that im posting i wanted to say i think that ryan is doing a great job!! keep up the great work!! you are headed in the right direction!! you do what ever you have to make things right and get a head in life!!!! to all the anons would you be happier if he turned out to be a junkie going nowhere?? i dont think he would be a topic if this were the case!!! wwaspies only want to belittle someone who had a bad memory of wwasp! and is doing everything to make sure people see them for what they are! my postion is against wwasp not pure, carey ryan, karen, or sue. i feel they have frauded, manipulated, and flat ass lied to me!!(for real) if you anon people would sit down and simply ask your children, what did you eat? (show them the menu) ask them did you hear screaming coming from O.P?(most didnt see) were you able to talk to the government? did you get your meds? did you ever get sick while in the program? why? was it the water? was someone ever treated badly? (not talking about the child themselves) did you have soap , shampoo and laundry soap, (everyday)? did you ever sleep on the floor? did you see a doctor when you were sick? (if a girl) did you have regular periods?( alot of girls didnt) this list goes on and on let me know if you want more questions to ask, if you the program parent simply asks were you abused most of the long time student say no,( my own thoughts) they think they deserve what they got!!!
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**Start your own thread about you and your obsession with Mormons as I find it confusing and boring.
Carey,
Do you know what a thread is? I did start my own thread for that discussion... and I can assure you that it won't be seeping into every other thread that is posted here. Get the point?
I'm certainly not obsessed with mormons. It was a discussion. Not an ongoing arguement between a handful of new people here. I'm not sure why it was confusing for you but I certainly can imagine that it was boring, it didn't contain anything about Pure or Ryan. And there was not an opening for you to engage in another repetitive arguement with your foes in that thread. Might you have been the anon who suggested it was racists? Better go to the dictionary.
**You know exactly what I am talking about when I address topics such as Ryan, PURE etc.
And that is not the issue Carey. WHEN your post contains information, they can be useful. When you post things like, "Yes Karen, you better stay out of it, you don't want to end up putting your foot in your mouth again." The later is the most common. How is that useful to anyone? How does that "challenge others to think for themselves"?
You have, at the very least, implied, alluded to, or beat around the bush to say that Ryan is a liar. I didn't have to look far. This thread contains one, "Well if that is the case, then he can be pressured into making false statements too, don't you think?"
Hmmm. Sounds like you're calling him a liar to me. Have I misunderstood yet another of your indirect communications? Making false statements=liar. Or is this one of your questions posed "to make people think"? To make people think he's a liar?
**This is an open forum and you can choose to write what you want to write and read what you want to read. This holds true for both you and me.
That's right Carey, this is an open, PUBLIC forum. You came here, followed by a group of people who were angry at you, and engaged in an ongoing arguement with them, that did not involve the PUBLIC. You/they moved the arguement here and have dominated this board for sometime now with a PRIVATE arguement- the PUBLIC is not privy to the history. It's not a PUBLIC debate or discussion, but an arguement between a handful of people and it seeps into the majority of the posts. That is the point, which I think was missed.
Deborah
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Deborah,
This thread and every other thread that I have posted under has to do with WWASP. Everything thing I have said has to do with WWASP. I know your knowledge of WWASP is limited as you have no personal experience with them at all. The only thing you know about WWASP is what you read. I hate to burst your bubble, but not everything you read is accuarate. Don't put words in my mouth, I am not saying this person lied or this person did not lie, but I know personally that not everything that you have read about this topic is accurate. When I talk about PURE, Karen, Ryan and his movie, it is totally relevant to the topic. You just don't know how relevant. They do. That is why it is such a thorn in their side. Maybe you should stay on threads that apply to that which you do have first hand knowledge of. Then maybe you won't try and decide what is important and what is worthy of conversation on this subject matter, a subject matter that some have experienced first hand.
"Well if that is the case, then he can be pressured into making false statements too, don't you think?"
Do not put words in my mouth. I did not call him a liar. If you draw that conclusion from what I have said, then maybe the fear for you is that others may draw that same conculsion. If they do, well, that is not what I said.
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I do not think you are understanding what I'm saying. For what it's worth, here's one more try.
This thread was on the topic of whether or not there was a connection between WWASP and High Impact.
Some anon person unfortunately asked:
Is the same program where the parents of Ryan F, (Coldwater, The Movie) were allegedly forced to pay a $60,000 bribe as a condition for removing their child from the program?
And the door opened. We are back to the endless discussion about Ryan, the class action, who the "lead" plantiff(s) are.....I fail to see how this was relevant the topic of the thread?
As for never calling Ryan a liar:
"It seems to all be a farce...Ryan's story, that is. Fiction...based on fact, how does that make any sense? Kinda seems like an oxymoron to me."
"Oh, I get it, that is part of the fiction that he is attesting to. ??????????? We are all just going to have to try and figure out when he is telling the truth and when he is not."
"If Ryan calls it a bribe, as he has on his website, then turns around and says it really was not a bribe, but tuition paid in full for the one year contract that his parents signed, then he is changing his own words to fit that of someone elses."
And that's just in this one thread.
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Carey, it is so plainly obvious, here's a question for you- Do you think the rest of us here (Pure and Public) do not interpret those comments to mean that you think Ryan is lying? The least you could do is be honest.
**When I talk about PURE, Karen, Ryan and his movie, it is totally relevant to the topic. You just don't know how relevant. They do.
THIS IS THE FUCKING POINT. NO, I don't know how relevant this is because you have not provided anything that might give an indication of the relevance.
And, "they do". Fuck they. Send them a message. The rest of us are wondering what the fuck point you are trying to make.
What are you alleging? Why is it relevant to them? That's what the PUBLIC wants to know. Your questions to your enemy are not helping the PUBLIC, the majority here, understand one bit.
Do you know who your audience is? It is not solely Pure supporters who know the inside skinny. That has been stated a number of times, yet you continue to direct your comments to the handful of Pure people who might be posting under anon. You'd probably get a lot less flack if you'd speak to the PUBLIC and not your advarsaries.. and stay on topic for the thread, rather, stop diverting every thread to the topic of your choice... Ryan, the movie, Pure, the class action. Is that any clearer? Does/will it make a difference?
Deborah
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Carey - Deborah is an energy suck, she has to think she knows everything about everything and have the last word - She's always right, didn't you know?? Is it just me, or doesn't anybody care if she really had a child in a program? She seems to be an authority on WWASP when she has ZERO first hand knowledge but seems to read a lot! If that makes her an expert on WWASP then I guess she is always right. Perfection sucks too.
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On 2003-08-22 22:25:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Carey - Deborah is an energy suck, she has to think she knows everything about everything and have the last word - She's always right, didn't you know?? Is it just me, or doesn't anybody care if she really had a child in a program? She seems to be an authority on WWASP when she has ZERO first hand knowledge but seems to read a lot! If that makes her an expert on WWASP then I guess she is always right. Perfection sucks too. "
God, is that the gospel truth!!
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What are you alleging? Why is it relevant to them? That's what the PUBLIC wants to know. Your questions to your enemy are not helping the PUBLIC, the majority here, understand one bit.
I disagee. My questions ARE helping the public. I am helping others to see that not everything said here is gospel. I am helping others to think independent of ANY so called group.
I am NOT here saying to others think what I think and believe what I believe, because I am all knowing and I am right!
This forum does not have an "editor" so to speak. It is open for people to share their thoughts, ideas and feelings, whehter you like them or not. So, ii you don't like what I write about, then don't read it. But keep in mind that just because you don't feel like I am helping you, does not mean that I might not be helping others.
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That was my post.
One more thing, I personnaly do have doubts about some of the things Ryan has said on his website. I think some of it may be made up to help to promote the movie. Do I know that for sure, no I don't. Therefore, I am not going to call Ryan a liar. (Remember now, my kids were in a WWASP school in which I believe was abusive. So don't twist what I am saying.) You are free to believe what ever you want to believe about it. If when this case goes to court and if WWASP is found guilty of abuse and or any wrong doing, I still will have doubts about everything Ryan has said. Will I ever know for sure if what he claims is totally true, probably only if he has hard evidence.
I am sorry if that makes a lot of people mad, but I am only being honest.