Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Che Gookin on June 21, 2009, 08:41:37 PM
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I don't like to beg... It isn't something I'm good at doing. I really don't much have anything to say about the list of names. That's something that can avoided in the following creative format:
employer: hey is this you the guy listed on fornits who went to Calo?
ex-resident of torture farm: Nope, some other guy with the same name. Hmm.. lemme read that... daaaaaaaamnn.. sucks to be him.. that place looks harsh.
The treatment profiles are another deal. They are a lie, but a dangerously compelling lie. You, Well Proxied, I'm sure know these Internets far more than I ever will. You know how something like that has potential to do those three kids some serious harm after they come home.
How can they defend themselves against that sort of thing with their pictures and full names and every trumped up worthless diagnosis under the sun? How can they fight the lies of CALO with a quick simple lie of their own?
I mean it's pretty easy for them as most of them graduate from their home district high schools. I think..
Even if they don't.. they don't go home with a CALO high school diploma. It is some quicky BYU Extension program that I understand most of the kids cheat on in some way. (Sorry won't say... you CALO folks will have to do your own work.)
The end result here is those documents they can't defend themselves against. Well proxied, you have to be a regular member of this forum. I can't imagine you not being a well read member with some of your insights.
YOU know that most adults will take one look at something like those documents and form exactly the wrong impression.
You know the FBI told CALO to hump the local licensing gang.
You know the DA told CALO to go hump the FBI.
And so on..
Whatever possible motivation you have for getting those documents recognized isn't going to happen.
THE FBI didn't even care when KEN called them.
So that venue is out of the question, if indeed that was your plan. It seems the most likely to me that is what you might have been aiming for given the GAO investigation. Thayer, and the recent ex-president setting up that back-channel from ISAC to the feebs.
Look, I have no real idea what you are out to do. You've apparently caused more havoc than any single fornits poster put together inside a facility in the last three years put together.
What I'm asking and even begging you to do is please take down those treatment profiles. PLease... The more I look at them the more I feel completely overwhelmed by them. Overwhelmed that the three kids are literally going to be branded with a Scarlett Letter. Branded with that letter when they didn't even do anything to deserve it.
I sense that deep down you really do want to help them. I just can honestly sit on the fence and waffle around anymore. If you want to help those kids in CALO please, for the love of god don't do it by posting garbage like that about them.
This next message is to Ken Huey.
I posted a thread spoofing your family. I had two goals here and from the discussion I had with Psy in private it seems I accomplished one of them with his warning you to remove anything of your family.
The other goal was to annoy people here on fornits. I do that from time to time, and I quite enjoy it.
I don't like you, and I don't like what you do. But I don't believe your children should ever be drug into the middle of this. Psy tells me you really do believe you are helping those kids.
I can believe that. I was you once upon a time, minus the hot looking wife, and minus your much bigger salary.
If you really believe you are helping those kids please.. please.. please... please... please... please... stop using PCS on the children. If you can manage this one thing you'd be about 1/10th of the way redeemed as a human being.
Further, I'd like you to Email me so we can talk back and forth. I think we could have a good conversation about restraints and maybe you can see some of my outrage as a former staffer of another program and a brother to a survivor of an abusive program.
These conversations will be absolutely private.
I give Psy permission, as of right now, to delete them on sight should they ever be posted up on fornits..
Back to Well Proxied...
Please.. I'm begging you.. Please take down the treatment profiles. It isn't about informed consent to me, it isn't about abuse, it is about a kid being labeled by a pack of lies for the rest of their life and not being able to defend themselves.
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@ Well Proxied:
It's not just that. One of the kids says "sexual" issues. We all know on fornits that probably means "gay", but to the rest of the public browsing casually or stumbling on his name through google, it means "pedobear". That sort of thing can ruin a person's life or drive them to suicide (even just being outed as gay). Not only is his full name there, but his picture and everything else. The images could have been blurred and the names redacted but they weren't. That demonstrates to me that you, well proxied, really don't care about the kids and are either doing this for the lulz or to try to drag fornits into some kind of fight and make fornits as a whole look bad. It's not going to work. Ken knows the situation we're in and he's not taking your bait. At this point, all you're hurting are those kids, and regardless of your motivation, the kids don't deserve that.
I feel for the kids being labeled with this crap, I really do, as I was labeled with lots of embarrassing stuff in program. Regardless of how open I am, and i'm probably one of the most open on this forum, I would never want half that shit out there. I know it's not true, but I don't want to have to explain that to an employer, clients, friends, a girl/boyfriend etc etc etc... I chose to fight. I choose what information from the program gets out there. You took that choice out of those kids hands, and for what? It's not hurting CALO. The only reason why the owner is begging, if you find that funny, is because he still has some shred of humanity in him and despite his twisted ways of dealing with kids, actually does care for their wellbeing. You aren't showing that, and frankly, out of the two sides in this, i'd go so far as to say the program is coming out looking "cleaner" to the public in the way this is handled. You're doing more damage to "our side" than anybody else. Don't fool yourself.
Hell. If' you're too lazy, I'll redact and blur the PDFs myself if you'll remove the originals.
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Not saying you are, but both of you give the distinct impression of being ethically rudderless "attention whores" and "drama queens." Can the heart-felt pleas to the internet, they're pointless and fake--if you REALLY wanted to remove the profiles, you could.
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if you REALLY wanted to remove the profiles, you could.
And they would get reposed in 10 times the volume. The only way to get rid of it and stay rid of it is to change the mind of well proxied and those who would follow him.
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if you REALLY wanted to remove the profiles, you could.
And they would get reposed in 10 times the volume. The only way to get rid of it and stay rid of it is to change the mind of well proxied and those who would follow him.
They have a way to change his mind, it's called a "program". Well proxied wants no part of it, obviously.
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At least Well Proxied can post an email account for the kids who want to get off his list.
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if you REALLY wanted to remove the profiles, you could.
And they would get reposed in 10 times the volume. The only way to get rid of it and stay rid of it is to change the mind of well proxied and those who would follow him.
They have a way to change his mind, it's called a "program". Well proxied wants no part of it, obviously.
A program changes your mind, thinking, code of ethics, and very identity without your knowledge or consent in a deceptive process called "thought reform". This is simple persuasion.
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At least Well Proxied can post an email account for the kids who want to get off his list.
I don't think he ever intended on following through on that, given there is no way to contact him.
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Then he should post an email because I sure am sure as hell not his go between.
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WP, I really wish you would take the kids' pics and surnames down. Ficticious treatment progress reports, as they are minus the connection to the real live people, would be great!
That's my 2 bits
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Then he should post an email because I sure am sure as hell not his go between.
Of course you're not
:roflmao: O0
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WP, don't bother with these idiots.
Let me describe my new video game I've been playing instead. It's called "Red Faction: Nobody Does Shit Edition". It's coop multiplayer, but one of its flaws is some truly decrepit enemy AI. (It is argued that it's intentional, as exploiting it is a strong gameplay element.)
The goal of the game is to rescue captives from Chambers before the Chambers are finished with them. It's fairly standard RPG fare: captives in, roboticized victims out. (Some of the most powerful players play as ex-victims, though.) Captives have Units who cooperate with Chamber operatives to keep them held prisoner; breaking a Chamber's hold on the Units in question rescues the captive and awards the player points. Of course, the very most common way of getting points is to prevent would-be captives from being sent to a Chamber in the first place, usually by acting on their Units the moment the Chamber operatives begin their foul work.
There is also a sort of over-watch group, The Authorities. They can also shut Chambers down but rarely do so; bringing in The Authorities is almost impossible but rescues all the captives and nets the player a special trophy, lots of points, and immense props from the other players. The Authorities are also the same group that responds in force whenever you attempt to do something like drive into one of these Chambers with a bus and kill all the guards. Keeps things balanced; after all, it'd be way too easy if players could just go do things like that. But The Authorities don't really care about most of the stuff that happens, and their attention- or lack thereof- is one of the key gameplay elements.
It has the common video game caveat of "Safe base"; that is, the enemy can't attack you at home no matter how much their AIs want to. (You can see them across the line sometimes, shouting things and seething.) It also has some standard Shadowrun-style thematic elements- meatspace vs. dataspace (much easier to get things done in dataspace, maybe they'll patch that), various corporations involved, government corruption, etc.
There are lots of players, some casual and some serious, but one of them is an apparently very experienced, top-ranked player we call Many Masks Dude. The guy goes into dataspace and comes back out with a full prisoner roster and three detailed dossiers, from what he says was an open data-access point. He posts them to the public bulletin board, in hopes that the information can be sent to The Authorities and used by other members to contact The Units. (One, just one, of those Units' information was posted to the same bulletin board afterwards.)
Guess what, the rebel leadership has shitty AI too! So they respond with preset comments like "What, are you crazy, that information could follow them for the rest of their lives!" and "Please take that down!" They don't actually do that themselves, of course, they just stare at it and make the same repetitive comments to the point where they don't do anything else. Seriously, they kept doing this for weeks, and they were still doing it when I turned the game off.
I ended up taking it back to the store; it was too damn unrealistic. How the fuck did this make it out of beta?
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To Previous: Well, that clears up any doubt. It’s not some madness to be pitied.
Something is very wrong with you and something vital is missing from your soul.
At least you underscore an opportunity to allow Well Proxied to consider just such repugnant creatures as yourself and hopefully reconsider.
(Edited for clarification) :rose:
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WP, don't bother with these idiots.
Let me describe my new video game I've been playing instead. It's called "Red Faction: Nobody Does Shit Edition". It's coop multiplayer, but one of its flaws is some truly decrepit enemy AI. (It is argued that it's intentional, as exploiting it is a strong gameplay element.)
The goal of the game is to rescue captives from Chambers before the Chambers are finished with them. It's fairly standard RPG fare: captives in, roboticized victims out. (Some of the most powerful players play as ex-victims, though.) Captives have Units who cooperate with Chamber operatives to keep them held prisoner; breaking a Chamber's hold on the Units in question rescues the captive and awards the player points. Of course, the very most common way of getting points is to prevent would-be captives from being sent to a Chamber in the first place, usually by acting on their Units the moment the Chamber operatives begin their foul work.
There is also a sort of over-watch group, The Authorities. They can also shut Chambers down but rarely do so; bringing in The Authorities is almost impossible but rescues all the captives and nets the player a special trophy, lots of points, and immense props from the other players. The Authorities are also the same group that responds in force whenever you attempt to do something like drive into one of these Chambers with a bus and kill all the guards. Keeps things balanced; after all, it'd be way too easy if players could just go do things like that. But The Authorities don't really care about most of the stuff that happens, and their attention- or lack thereof- is one of the key gameplay elements.
It has the common video game caveat of "Safe base"; that is, the enemy can't attack you at home no matter how much their AIs want to. (You can see them across the line sometimes, shouting things and seething.) It also has some standard Shadowrun-style thematic elements- meatspace vs. dataspace (much easier to get things done in dataspace, maybe they'll patch that), various corporations involved, government corruption, etc.
There are lots of players, some casual and some serious, but one of them is an apparently very experienced, top-ranked player we call Many Masks Dude. The guy goes into dataspace and comes back out with a full prisoner roster and three detailed dossiers, from what he says was an open data-access point. He posts them to the public bulletin board, in hopes that the information can be sent to The Authorities and used by other members to contact The Units. (One, just one, of those Units' information was posted to the same bulletin board afterwards.)
Guess what, the rebel leadership has shitty AI too! So they respond with preset comments like "What, are you crazy, that information could follow them for the rest of their lives!" and "Please take that down!" They don't actually do that themselves, of course, they just stare at it and make the same repetitive comments to the point where they don't do anything else. Seriously, they kept doing this for weeks, and they were still doing it when I turned the game off.
I ended up taking it back to the store; it was too damn unrealistic. How the fuck did this make it out of beta?
I concur.
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I'm still not convinced some kids who will never know some strangers saw that they were trapped in a place they hate and want to escape is going to hurt them.
Even if it were, the fact that they might get out of the duckfarm would kind of outweigh the embarrassment. "So yeah, hrm, I have a shot to get out if I understand I might be embarrassed by being anonymously outed as being trapped in a torture camp. Thats one fucking TOUGH decision".
:beat:
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To previous: Well, that clears up any doubt. It’s not some madness to be pitied.
Something is very wrong with you and something vital is missing from your soul.
At least you underscore an opportunity to allow Well Proxied to consider just such repugnant creatures as yourself and hopefully reconsider.
I don't think anything vital is missing from one's soul here. We needn't this hyperbole. You and guest(and me) just have different ideas about how to approach the abduction, imprisonment, and torture of American Citizen's issue. Personally, when I was imprisoned and getting tortured, I'd have no problem with this crap being posted, as anyone with the slightest bit of education, or even intuition can recognize it for what it is. It could hasten in my rescue. Honestly, those concerned could forward these “profiles” to real psychiatric clinicians and thusly, establish a need for immediate intervention due to immediate danger.
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I must agree, while I respect the bold strategy I think having these documents tied to these individuals provides a great disservice for them. After all these documents are just the lies and ramblings of this torture-cult, yet jobs, potential girlfriends, family and friends might not be able to distinguish this.
The purpose is to out the program not the kids, and bare in mind that these issues do require some discretion. Were the good guys remember?... I'm all for taking risks but when the result is more harm than good I suggest you revise your attack.
Well Proxied, If you have any heart at all for these kids you would blur their names and photos... and do this for any other treatment plans posted in the future. Its just not fair to them otherwise, and I'm hoping that making these kid's life any harder wasn't your intention.
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Keep the "playing doctor" profiles up, and add some more! Add the actual names of the program failures-to-be-decent parents, as well.
Hurumph, hurumph
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WP, don't bother with these idiots.
Let me describe my new video game I've been playing instead. It's called "Red Faction: Nobody Does Shit Edition". It's coop multiplayer, but one of its flaws is some truly decrepit enemy AI. (It is argued that it's intentional, as exploiting it is a strong gameplay element.)
The goal of the game is to rescue captives from Chambers before the Chambers are finished with them. It's fairly standard RPG fare: captives in, roboticized victims out. (Some of the most powerful players play as ex-victims, though.) Captives have Units who cooperate with Chamber operatives to keep them held prisoner; breaking a Chamber's hold on the Units in question rescues the captive and awards the player points. Of course, the very most common way of getting points is to prevent would-be captives from being sent to a Chamber in the first place, usually by acting on their Units the moment the Chamber operatives begin their foul work.
There is also a sort of over-watch group, The Authorities. They can also shut Chambers down but rarely do so; bringing in The Authorities is almost impossible but rescues all the captives and nets the player a special trophy, lots of points, and immense props from the other players. The Authorities are also the same group that responds in force whenever you attempt to do something like drive into one of these Chambers with a bus and kill all the guards. Keeps things balanced; after all, it'd be way too easy if players could just go do things like that. But The Authorities don't really care about most of the stuff that happens, and their attention- or lack thereof- is one of the key gameplay elements.
It has the common video game caveat of "Safe base"; that is, the enemy can't attack you at home no matter how much their AIs want to. (You can see them across the line sometimes, shouting things and seething.) It also has some standard Shadowrun-style thematic elements- meatspace vs. dataspace (much easier to get things done in dataspace, maybe they'll patch that), various corporations involved, government corruption, etc.
There are lots of players, some casual and some serious, but one of them is an apparently very experienced, top-ranked player we call Many Masks Dude. The guy goes into dataspace and comes back out with a full prisoner roster and three detailed dossiers, from what he says was an open data-access point. He posts them to the public bulletin board, in hopes that the information can be sent to The Authorities and used by other members to contact The Units. (One, just one, of those Units' information was posted to the same bulletin board afterwards.)
Guess what, the rebel leadership has shitty AI too! So they respond with preset comments like "What, are you crazy, that information could follow them for the rest of their lives!" and "Please take that down!" They don't actually do that themselves, of course, they just stare at it and make the same repetitive comments to the point where they don't do anything else. Seriously, they kept doing this for weeks, and they were still doing it when I turned the game off.
I ended up taking it back to the store; it was too damn unrealistic. How the fuck did this make it out of beta?
This is very hilarious and speaks to me on many levels. Please continue description of this ridiculous video game!
How does it end? Do The Authorities ever show up?
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This is very hilarious and speaks to me on many levels. Please continue description of this ridiculous video game!
I'll try, but it's weird beyond comprehension.
One of the really strange parts of it is how much players tend to talk about it rather than actually play it. Imagine, if possible, a WoW guild that goes on raids every two months and spends the rest of their time discussing it. Some of them don't even play at all, they just talk about people who play it, and how other people should play it, and how much they'd like to play it.
This includes conversation with Eliza-like chatbots too. This was put in as an April Fool's joke by the coders and they weren't expecting to still be laughing. Randomly some bot comes on and starts replying to various stuff on the discussion board. Players on most game boards would twig pretty fast and start laughing at it. Here? Players (or non-players, or whatever) actually go and try to have meaningful conversation with it! Of course it replies in a predictable fashion, you retards, it's a fucking bot! Stop talking to it!
Sometimes AI messages pop up whenever a big hit is delivered, too. Normally this is a very strong sign that you are doing something right! The logical approach would be to chalk it up as "Whatever you're doing, it's WORKING! Do more!" And yet people try to have conversation with THAT, too! Seriously, what are you expecting it to say?
I mean, seriously, do you do this when you're playing Red Faction: Guerilla? When you've just stuck your sledgehammer through the last support of a High Importance EDF building and you hear the drones parroting their usual lines about "You cannot escape", "You are in violation of EDF regulations", etc, do you actually stop and LISTEN to them?! Or do you just jump in your armored truck and GTFO to your next objective?
How does it end? Do The Authorities ever show up?
It never ends. New Chambers respawn pretty much constantly. The game can probably be won, but with this playerbase it won't be.
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WP, I really wish you would take the kids' pics and surnames down.
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Yes, particularly since the site's "Terms of Service" gives the site that right to remove the content at issue, it almost becomes an obligation, no? At this point, Fornits is clearly participating in this event; they're no longer a pure publisher / distributor.
Consider: Getting access to the forum requires one to enter into a contractual arrangement with fornits.com. You've got to acknowledge the following: "You agree not to post any abusive, obscene, vulgar, slanderous, hateful, threatening, sexually-orientated or any other material that may violate any laws be it of your country, the country where “Fornits Home for Wayward Web Fora” is hosted or International Law...You agree that “Fornits Home for Wayward Web Fora” have the right to remove, edit, move or close any topic at any time should we see fit." This language, which every poster has to accept before being allowed to post, means this site has the unquestioned right and ability to remove the items; it's codified in the legally binding contract one has to acknowledge before posting. Oh, and yes, that is a contract; sorry the claim that you were too inept to edit the boilerplate language everybody has to acknowledge before posting on the site does not make this any less of a contract. The TOS clearly states that the site has the right -- and, a court might say, given the nature of the events at issue, both a moral and legal obligation -- to remove posts specifically designed to incite others to threatening, stalking, and similar assaults on third parties.
You may be under the impression that the Communications Decency Act immunizes the site and its operators from adverse legal judgments so long as the site's operators make no attempt to edit content (assuming this winds up in a US court, which, believe me, is not at all a sure thing; did you know there's no First Amendment protection in Canada, which is where the server for this site is allegedly in situ? Here's a tip: When you're trying to immunize yourself against legal action in your own country, put your stuff someplace where legal protections are *stronger* than where you live; Canada has a long and glorious history of sending people to jail for saying things Canadians don't like, such as denying the Holocaust occurred). The operator immunity offered by the CDA is generally true and its a very good and important thing for our society, but there are some very straightforward exceptions The CDA protection ceases to exist when the site operator is fully informed of the offending material -- illegally distributed intellectual property, for example, such as, I don't know, private treatment records -- and does nothing to mitigate the situation. Likewise with material that's illegal on its face, like child pornography. And likewise, material that has been posted here which is obviously designed specifically to violate privacy, incite harassment and stalking, and cause pain and mental anguish to children in the facility upon their release, as well as their parents and siblings. (Siblings. Seriously. There are people who are members of this forum who have posted information designed to be used to harass / stalk the siblings of those children who have been placed in a facility. And the site won't stop it. This is, in a word, indefensible.) The CDA is most especially not applicable *when the Terms of Service explicitly state the that CDA protections do not apply*. Get it? Yes, I understand your argument that you don't enforce the TOS; unfortunately the fact that they are present in your current enforceable contract doesn't give you any place to hide on this issue. Talk to your lawyer. Be sure and mention the multiple postings from site operators clearly demonstrating that they are fully aware of the material at issue and that they have thus far simply refused to remove the material, thereby inviting continued abuse and harassment upon completely innocent third parties, such as the siblings of the children identified in postings.
So if you're not deleting the material at issue out of misplaced concern that doing so will eliminate your safe harbor protection under the CDA, you are most seriously wrong. Talk to your lawyer. Like, now.
Oh, and that bit about no laws being broken since the files were allegedly obtained because an account lacked a password? Really? No laws at all? Not even the federal Computer Fraud and Abuse Act? I ask because the feds bring thousands -- literally thousands -- of charges every year under exactly the circumstances described, because unauthorized access to a US computer system, whether its authentication mechanisms are implemented properly or not, is a federal felony baby. No lie. Hell, under the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act a Los Angeles jury last year found a woman guilty of two felonies for setting up a MySpace account under a false name ; it's an extremely broad statue. The poster is basically trying to argue that because security wasn't implemented properly on the site there can never be a crime with regard to any external interaction with those computers; it's basically arguing that because I left the door to my house unlocked you have every right in the world to stroll in and watch a DVD; you can make a claim like that, but it's not going to be a successful one. And because the operators of this site have been informed that this information was obtained in the commission of a felony, well, that's on them too.
I know many of the people here are effectively judgment proof; they have no significant assets to seize. Still, it's gonna be painful if you wind up handing over ten percent of whatever you've got to the court for the next five years. And that's just a civil action; even assuming you don't get some huge fine, you'll be forced to hire a defense attorney (and good luck finding somebody to handle a case like this without a five-figure retainer; there's a big difference between suing somebody and being sued in terms of your up front costs). But, hey, lets not worry about civil action right now: You're looking at a federal felony conviction (prosecutors aren't likely to pursue this unless somebody actually gets hurt as a result of this, but if that happens, well, you're done). The good news there is at least you can get free legal representation for your criminal trial; you might even be able to stay out on bail until the trial starts a year or two down the road, assuming you can raise the necessary cash. Oh, and if you think it costs the other side out of pocket money for that civil suit, think again: They've got liability insurers who will throw money at very high-priced talent, since getting a judgment against you will help immunize them against future claims against them and will of course be used as prima facie evidence in any criminal case. You're the low hanging fruit here that everybody involved would like to crush, ferment, and get blitzed thereupon. The truth is, you've never been this popular: everybody wants to be the first to nail your asses to the wall, because it either burnishes their claim or improves their defense.
If you don't act, this is going to end very badly.
Note that I'm not associated with any of these programs. I have no idea if any of these programs are any good (I gather from the comments that few people here think any of them are). I was asked to examine this situation by a third party (pro bono) and provide a framework for action, which I've done. I have no dog in this fight, which is why I felt comfortable weighing in here. I make my living catching Bad Guys (really, really bad guys). I feel very good about it and I make a decent living. I can't tell you how many of them work behind international proxies and think they're fine. Or they use encrypted email and think nobody can read it. Here's a tip: Every single commercial version of encryption software available in the United States has an implementation flaw in it. All of them. Seriously. And that's when it's used perfectly; how many people do that? You really need to transmit code, you've got to go with the only things that work: One time pads. Proxies are typically only as effective as the type of speech they're being used to protect. Which is to say, in this case they're not likely to be very effective, particularly if one of the people in a facility or a member of their family comes to harm as result of these postings.
My point is: I don't think you're bad guys. I think you have a point. I also think you are in a bind, since the rules you operate under have allowed someone to expose you to significant liability. And, rest assured, if you don't demonstrate your rejection of this behavior with some alacrity, you will be held accountable. Since I'm (relatively) neutral here, and would just like to see this resolved in an equitable fashion, perhaps you'll take some advice from a stranger: Take the stuff down, then argue about whether to put it back up. Doing it the way you're doing it now guarantees a negative outcome.
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Sometimes AI messages pop up whenever a big hit is delivered, too.
Eight paragraphs of utter bullshit
Quid erat demonstratum.
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WP, I really wish you would take the kids' pics and surnames down.
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Yes, particularly since the site's "Terms of Service" gives the site that right to remove the content at issue, it almost becomes an obligation, no? At this point, Fornits is clearly participating in this event; they're no longer a pure publisher / distributor.
Consider: Getting access to the forum requires one to enter into a contractual arrangement with fornits.com. You've got to acknowledge the following: "You agree not to post any abusive, obscene, vulgar, slanderous, hateful, threatening, sexually-orientated or any other material that may violate any laws be it of your country, the country where “Fornits Home for Wayward Web Fora” is hosted or International Law...You agree that “Fornits Home for Wayward Web Fora” have the right to remove, edit, move or close any topic at any time should we see fit." This language, which every poster has to accept before being allowed to post, means this site has the unquestioned right and ability to remove the items; it's codified in the legally binding contract one has to acknowledge before posting. Oh, and yes, that is a contract; sorry the claim that you were too inept to edit the boilerplate language everybody has to acknowledge before posting on the site does not make this any less of a contract. The TOS clearly states that the site has the right -- and, a court might say, given the nature of the events at issue, both a moral and legal obligation -- to remove posts specifically designed to incite others to threatening, stalking, and similar assaults on third parties.
You may be under the impression that the Communications Decency Act immunizes the site and its operators from adverse legal judgments so long as the site's operators make no attempt to edit content (assuming this winds up in a US court, which, believe me, is not at all a sure thing; did you know there's no First Amendment protection in Canada, which is where the server for this site is allegedly in situ? Here's a tip: When you're trying to immunize yourself against legal action in your own country, put your stuff someplace where legal protections are *stronger* than where you live; Canada has a long and glorious history of sending people to jail for saying things Canadians don't like, such as denying the Holocaust occurred). The operator immunity offered by the CDA is generally true and its a very good and important thing for our society, but there are some very straightforward exceptions The CDA protection ceases to exist when the site operator is fully informed of the offending material -- illegally distributed intellectual property, for example, such as, I don't know, private treatment records -- and does nothing to mitigate the situation. Likewise with material that's illegal on its face, like child pornography. And likewise, material that has been posted here which is obviously designed specifically to violate privacy, incite harassment and stalking, and cause pain and mental anguish to children in the facility upon their release, as well as their parents and siblings. (Siblings. Seriously. There are people who are members of this forum who have posted information designed to be used to harass / stalk the siblings of those children who have been placed in a facility. And the site won't stop it. This is, in a word, indefensible.) The CDA is most especially not applicable *when the Terms of Service explicitly state the that CDA protections do not apply*. Get it? Yes, I understand your argument that you don't enforce the TOS; unfortunately the fact that they are present in your current enforceable contract doesn't give you any place to hide on this issue. Talk to your lawyer. Be sure and mention the multiple postings from site operators clearly demonstrating that they are fully aware of the material at issue and that they have thus far simply refused to remove the material, thereby inviting continued abuse and harassment upon completely innocent third parties, such as the siblings of the children identified in postings.
So if you're not deleting the material at issue out of misplaced concern that doing so will eliminate your safe harbor protection under the CDA, you are most seriously wrong. Talk to your lawyer. Like, now.
Oh, and that bit about no laws being broken since the files were allegedly obtained because an account lacked a password? Really? No laws at all? Not even the federal Computer Fraud and Abuse Act? I ask because the feds bring thousands -- literally thousands -- of charges every year under exactly the circumstances described, because unauthorized access to a US computer system, whether its authentication mechanisms are implemented properly or not, is a federal felony baby. No lie. Hell, under the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act a Los Angeles jury last year found a woman guilty of two felonies for setting up a MySpace account under a false name ; it's an extremely broad statue. The poster is basically trying to argue that because security wasn't implemented properly on the site there can never be a crime with regard to any external interaction with those computers; it's basically arguing that because I left the door to my house unlocked you have every right in the world to stroll in and watch a DVD; you can make a claim like that, but it's not going to be a successful one. And because the operators of this site have been informed that this information was obtained in the commission of a felony, well, that's on them too.
I know many of the people here are effectively judgment proof; they have no significant assets to seize. Still, it's gonna be painful if you wind up handing over ten percent of whatever you've got to the court for the next five years. And that's just a civil action; even assuming you don't get some huge fine, you'll be forced to hire a defense attorney (and good luck finding somebody to handle a case like this without a five-figure retainer; there's a big difference between suing somebody and being sued in terms of your up front costs). But, hey, lets not worry about civil action right now: You're looking at a federal felony conviction (prosecutors aren't likely to pursue this unless somebody actually gets hurt as a result of this, but if that happens, well, you're done). The good news there is at least you can get free legal representation for your criminal trial; you might even be able to stay out on bail until the trial starts a year or two down the road, assuming you can raise the necessary cash. Oh, and if you think it costs the other side out of pocket money for that civil suit, think again: They've got liability insurers who will throw money at very high-priced talent, since getting a judgment against you will help immunize them against future claims against them and will of course be used as prima facie evidence in any criminal case. You're the low hanging fruit here that everybody involved would like to crush, ferment, and get blitzed thereupon. The truth is, you've never been this popular: everybody wants to be the first to nail your asses to the wall, because it either burnishes their claim or improves their defense.
If you don't act, this is going to end very badly.
Note that I'm not associated with any of these programs. I have no idea if any of these programs are any good (I gather from the comments that few people here think any of them are). I was asked to examine this situation by a third party (pro bono) and provide a framework for action, which I've done. I have no dog in this fight, which is why I felt comfortable weighing in here. I make my living catching Bad Guys (really, really bad guys). I feel very good about it and I make a decent living. I can't tell you how many of them work behind international proxies and think they're fine. Or they use encrypted email and think nobody can read it. Here's a tip: Every single commercial version of encryption software available in the United States has an implementation flaw in it. All of them. Seriously. And that's when it's used perfectly; how many people do that? You really need to transmit code, you've got to go with the only things that work: One time pads. Proxies are typically only as effective as the type of speech they're being used to protect. Which is to say, in this case they're not likely to be very effective, particularly if one of the people in a facility or a member of their family comes to harm as result of these postings.
My point is: I don't think you're bad guys. I think you have a point. I also think you are in a bind, since the rules you operate under have allowed someone to expose you to significant liability. And, rest assured, if you don't demonstrate your rejection of this behavior with some alacrity, you will be held accountable. Since I'm (relatively) neutral here, and would just like to see this resolved in an equitable fashion, perhaps you'll take some advice from a stranger: Take the stuff down, then argue about whether to put it back up. Doing it the way you're doing it now guarantees a negative outcome.
This is the internet. If it is taken down here, it will pop up somewhere else. Guarantee it. Posts like this remind me how valuable and brave our administrators are.
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Ken Huey's lawyer "I pump the neighbors dog" most likely drafted a statement for Ken to write on Fornits Home for Wayward Web Fora.
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This is the internet. If it is taken down here, it will pop up somewhere else. Guarantee it. Posts like this remind me how valuable and brave our administrators are.
That is precisely my point; given that removing it from this forum does not prevent access to it (since it will just be published elsewhere) what purpose is served by allowing it to stay up on this site (especially given the apparent opposition of site operators to posting such material?). Leaving it here simply puts the site and its operators in danger. Moving it to another site preserves this site and the operators from legal liability. What exactly is the downside?
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This is the internet. If it is taken down here, it will pop up somewhere else. Guarantee it. Posts like this remind me how valuable and brave our administrators are.
That is precisely my point; given that removing it from this forum does not prevent access to it (since it will just be published elsewhere) what purpose is served by allowing it to stay up on this site (especially given the apparent opposition of site operators to posting such material?). Leaving it here simply puts the site and its operators in danger. Moving it to another site preserves this site and the operators from legal liability. What exactly is the downside?
Good luck with you courageous strategy of anonymously posted, vaguely worded threats, CALO!
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Likewise with material that's illegal on its face, like child pornography. And likewise, material that has been posted here which is obviously designed specifically to violate privacy, incite harassment and stalking, and cause pain and mental anguish to children in the facility upon their release, as well as their parents and siblings. (Siblings. Seriously. There are people who are members of this forum who have posted information designed to be used to harass / stalk the siblings of those children who have been placed in a facility. And the site won't stop it. This is, in a word, indefensible.)
Material "that's illegal on its face"? That's something of a stretch.
And it"s "obviously intended to incite stalking and cause mental anguish to children upon their release?" And the sibling's material "was posted to incite stalking"?
Really? I thought it was specifically posted so the sibling could be informed of what was being done to her sister and by who. (ken Huey of Provo canyon, Nicole Fuglsang of hidden lake academy)
If you are the best Ken Huey can do, Ken Huey can't do too well. I am not a lawyer, but it really sounds like you are simply randomly stringing negative sounding ideas together at random as they do not make sense in the context you use them
I think you will have to try harder if you are interested in intimidating the admins
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Likewise with material that's illegal on its face, like child pornography. And likewise, material that has been posted here which is obviously designed specifically to violate privacy, incite harassment and stalking, and cause pain and mental anguish to children in the facility upon their release, as well as their parents and siblings. (Siblings. Seriously. There are people who are members of this forum who have posted information designed to be used to harass / stalk the siblings of those children who have been placed in a facility. And the site won't stop it. This is, in a word, indefensible.)
Material "that's illegal on its face"? That's something of a stretch.
And it"s "obviously intended to incite stalking and cause mental anguish to children upon their release?" And the sibling's material "was posted to incite stalking"?
Really? I thought it was specifically posted so the sibling could be informed of what was being done to her sister and by who. (ken Huey of Provo canyon, Nicole Fuglsang of hidden lake academy)
If you are the best Ken Huey can do, Ken Huey can't do too well. I am not a lawyer, but it really sounds like you are simply randomly stringing negative sounding ideas together at random as they do not make sense in the context you use them
I think you will have to try harder if you are interested in intimidating the admins
Sorry if I was unclear; my intent was to sketch a broad array of situations in the CDA provided no safe haven. Child pornography is one of them. In the United States, such material is illegal at all times. It was not my intent to suggest that such material is posted here; rather that was an example of material that is never protected by the CDA, as child pornography is always illegal in all circumstances in the United States (it's really the only universal exception to the First Amendment).
As for intimidating anybody, nope, not explicitly my intent (at least not in the way I believe you intend). I have no power -- absolutely zero -- and never will have any power in this matter. As I said, my role in this little thing is completely finished. I was hoping that perhaps if someone knowledgeable laid out the facts of the situation, everybody could avoid a very unpleasant episode with fairly serious consequences for people who are actually committed to doing good work. Here's what I would have liked to have happened in the best of all possible worlds: The site admins took my analysis to their lawyers, and their lawyers looked at it and said, "Yes, this is a very straightforward description of the situation. What do you want to do?" I'm not actually trying to intimidate anybody. I'M TRYING TO GET PEOPLE TO TALK TO THEIR LAWYER. Seriously. Get legal counsel. Write me off as a troll or whatever the hell you want, but talk to a lawyer. Soon. Get some legal guidance in the matter before you get served and you can minimize the fallout. Your lawyers might look at my little missive and burst out laughing; maybe I don't have any idea what I'm talking about. Or maybe I've just passed along a critical document that can be used to mitigate what will otherwise turn into something rather awful. There's only one way to find out: Ask your lawyer.
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WP, I really wish you would take the kids' pics and surnames down.
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Yes, particularly since the site's "Terms of Service" gives the site that right to remove the content at issue, it almost becomes an obligation, no? At this point, Fornits is clearly participating in this event; they're no longer a pure publisher / distributor.
Consider: Getting access to the forum requires one to enter into a contractual arrangement with fornits.com. You've got to acknowledge the following: "You agree not to post any abusive, obscene, vulgar, slanderous, hateful, threatening, sexually-orientated or any other material that may violate any laws be it of your country, the country where “Fornits Home for Wayward Web Fora” is hosted or International Law...You agree that “Fornits Home for Wayward Web Fora” have the right to remove, edit, move or close any topic at any time should we see fit." This language, which every poster has to accept before being allowed to post, means this site has the unquestioned right and ability to remove the items; it's codified in the legally binding contract one has to acknowledge before posting. Oh, and yes, that is a contract; sorry the claim that you were too inept to edit the boilerplate language everybody has to acknowledge before posting on the site does not make this any less of a contract. The TOS clearly states that the site has the right -- and, a court might say, given the nature of the events at issue, both a moral and legal obligation -- to remove posts specifically designed to incite others to threatening, stalking, and similar assaults on third parties.
You may be under the impression that the Communications Decency Act immunizes the site and its operators from adverse legal judgments so long as the site's operators make no attempt to edit content (assuming this winds up in a US court, which, believe me, is not at all a sure thing; did you know there's no First Amendment protection in Canada, which is where the server for this site is allegedly in situ? Here's a tip: When you're trying to immunize yourself against legal action in your own country, put your stuff someplace where legal protections are *stronger* than where you live; Canada has a long and glorious history of sending people to jail for saying things Canadians don't like, such as denying the Holocaust occurred). The operator immunity offered by the CDA is generally true and its a very good and important thing for our society, but there are some very straightforward exceptions The CDA protection ceases to exist when the site operator is fully informed of the offending material -- illegally distributed intellectual property, for example, such as, I don't know, private treatment records -- and does nothing to mitigate the situation. Likewise with material that's illegal on its face, like child pornography. And likewise, material that has been posted here which is obviously designed specifically to violate privacy, incite harassment and stalking, and cause pain and mental anguish to children in the facility upon their release, as well as their parents and siblings. (Siblings. Seriously. There are people who are members of this forum who have posted information designed to be used to harass / stalk the siblings of those children who have been placed in a facility. And the site won't stop it. This is, in a word, indefensible.) The CDA is most especially not applicable *when the Terms of Service explicitly state the that CDA protections do not apply*. Get it? Yes, I understand your argument that you don't enforce the TOS; unfortunately the fact that they are present in your current enforceable contract doesn't give you any place to hide on this issue. Talk to your lawyer. Be sure and mention the multiple postings from site operators clearly demonstrating that they are fully aware of the material at issue and that they have thus far simply refused to remove the material, thereby inviting continued abuse and harassment upon completely innocent third parties, such as the siblings of the children identified in postings.
So if you're not deleting the material at issue out of misplaced concern that doing so will eliminate your safe harbor protection under the CDA, you are most seriously wrong. Talk to your lawyer. Like, now.
You're very confused. Fornits is not hosted in Canada. IT's hosted in California. The TOS is not easily changeable in phpbb. If it was, we'd change it. Read the TOS carefully, again and again, until who is responsible for posts is clear in your mind. Actually fucking read the CDA section 230 instead of talking out your ass and do the same with the DMCA section 512 with special attention to safe harbor (in the case of copyright infringement claims). Fornits *is* a service provider, not a content provider. We're immune. If Fornits staff started changing around the content, that could make us a content provider (read the caselaw on this, as it varies and isnt' fully written, so to speak).
This information posted by "well proxied" is not ilegal no it's face like child pornography. It's up to great debate as to whether or not it's illegal at all or even civilly actionable. It's obvious the feds don't care since they told CALO to go to the licensing authorities. Who exactly are you trying to scare? I want the info down too, but it's simply not my decision or gingers, and even if we did delete them, they would simply be re-posted.
Oh, and that bit about no laws being broken since the files were allegedly obtained because an account lacked a password?
I've heard different stories as to how the orignial leak happened. IF indeed there is a criminal case, which there does not appear to be since the feds are not interested, it's not my business or my responsibility. IF Well proxied broke the law, he and nobody else, will pay the consequences. Furthermore, if, indeed his posings were a criminal matter, wouldn't deleting the posts would be destruction of evidence/obstruction of justice?
Really? No laws at all? Not even the federal Computer Fraud and Abuse Act? I ask because the feds bring thousands -- literally thousands -- of charges every year under exactly the circumstances described, because unauthorized access to a US computer system, whether its authentication mechanisms are implemented properly or not, is a federal felony baby. No lie. Hell, under the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act a Los Angeles jury last year found a woman guilty of two felonies for setting up a MySpace account under a false name ; it's an extremely broad statue. The poster is basically trying to argue that because security wasn't implemented properly on the site there can never be a crime with regard to any external interaction with those computers; it's basically arguing that because I left the door to my house unlocked you have every right in the world to stroll in and watch a DVD; you can make a claim like that, but it's not going to be a successful one. And because the operators of this site have been informed that this information was obtained in the commission of a felony, well, that's on them too.
I know many of the people here are effectively judgment proof; they have no significant assets to seize. Still, it's gonna be painful if you wind up handing over ten percent of whatever you've got to the court for the next five years. And that's just a civil action; even assuming you don't get some huge fine, you'll be forced to hire a defense attorney (and good luck finding somebody to handle a case like this without a five-figure retainer; there's a big difference between suing somebody and being sued in terms of your up front costs). But, hey, lets not worry about civil action right now: You're looking at a federal felony conviction (prosecutors aren't likely to pursue this unless somebody actually gets hurt as a result of this, but if that happens, well, you're done). The good news there is at least you can get free legal representation for your criminal trial; you might even be able to stay out on bail until the trial starts a year or two down the road, assuming you can raise the necessary cash. Oh, and if you think it costs the other side out of pocket money for that civil suit, think again: They've got liability insurers who will throw money at very high-priced talent, since getting a judgment against you will help immunize them against future claims against them and will of course be used as prima facie evidence in any criminal case. You're the low hanging fruit here that everybody involved would like to crush, ferment, and get blitzed thereupon. The truth is, you've never been this popular: everybody wants to be the first to nail your asses to the wall, because it either burnishes their claim or improves their defense.
If you don't act, this is going to end very badly.
Note that I'm not associated with any of these programs. I have no idea if any of these programs are any good (I gather from the comments that few people here think any of them are). I was asked to examine this situation by a third party (pro bono) and provide a framework for action, which I've done. I have no dog in this fight, which is why I felt comfortable weighing in here. I make my living catching Bad Guys (really, really bad guys). I feel very good about it and I make a decent living. I can't tell you how many of them work behind international proxies and think they're fine. Or they use encrypted email and think nobody can read it. Here's a tip: Every single commercial version of encryption software available in the United States has an implementation flaw in it. All of them. Seriously. And that's when it's used perfectly; how many people do that? You really need to transmit code, you've got to go with the only things that work: One time pads. Proxies are typically only as effective as the type of speech they're being used to protect. Which is to say, in this case they're not likely to be very effective, particularly if one of the people in a facility or a member of their family comes to harm as result of these postings.
My point is: I don't think you're bad guys. I think you have a point. I also think you are in a bind, since the rules you operate under have allowed someone to expose you to significant liability. And, rest assured, if you don't demonstrate your rejection of this behavior with some alacrity, you will be held accountable. Since I'm (relatively) neutral here, and would just like to see this resolved in an equitable fashion, perhaps you'll take some advice from a stranger: Take the stuff down, then argue about whether to put it back up. Doing it the way you're doing it now guarantees a negative outcome.
Myself and ginger have already been through tougher legal action and won (than the fantastical fictional implausible case you spin), and CALO is not, i repeat not, going to sue us. I have very good lawyers and i'm not in the least even slightly nervous, and neither is ginger, who has her own program killing bulldog. In fact, when Ginger and I were talking the other day she was sort of disappointed CALO wasn't suing us, since it draws attention to this issue. If you're trying to threaten us, you should know we don't view legal action in the same light you do. It's not necessarily a negative thing. It's an opportunity to do battle.
Look. You want somebody to go after. Good. If you claim Well Proxied isn't secure. Fantastic! Personally, i'd like to see him rot for outing those kids treatment profiles like he did. If you truly are LEO, why not do something about it and go after him if he's truly broken the law. Fornits isn't responsible if idiots and assholes post here so don't blame us. We dont get into it. We are not the arbiters of what is ok to say and what isn't. That's for the courts and it'll be a cold day in hell before ginger and I get into that.
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OK, well you know more about your business than I do. For what it's worth, I think it's indeed possible -- and even likely -- that the corporate entity will attempt to avoid litigation, unless its counsel / insurance company decides that litigation offers them some protection going forward. Protection from, you know, the families.
I think your pain point is going to be the families. They've been content to let the corporate entity proceed, but I have little doubt that if and when the corporate entity doesn't do anything at least one member of one family will act. Here's another tip: I don't know anything at all about the corporate entity; nothing whatsoever. Never had any contact with them and wouldn't be interested if somebody inquired. Don't know and don't care. Follow me here? Yes, the corporate entity is almost certainly going to argue to the families that the best way to handle this is to not engage in legal action, as that runs the risk of simply bringing further attention to these events. It's not clear whether every member of every family involved will accept that guidance. Yeah, I'd say your issue is going to be with the families.
Anyway, I've done what I think is right at this juncture and I don't feel there's anything more I can do. Now I've brought this matter to your full attention I can stop thinking about it. Best of luck. Keep the jerks honest. I won't be back.
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You *really* think calo will tell the families?
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You *really* think calo will tell the families?
Heh. I was just about to shut down my box and head in to the office and saw this response. Okay, my last post and then I'm done here.
I've already told you I have no connection, at all, to the corporate entity, yes? How clear to I have to be here? The corporate entity has (thus far) successfully told the families that it will take legal action. The families *believe* that so they're not doing anything themselves. Or at least some of them believe it. Not those who have asked me for an opinion, obviously, but they're willing to wait and see what happens. The families know what's going on, whether the corporate entity is keeping them informed officially or not. You follow?
Some of these families have lawyers in them. At least one of them that I am aware of is a not a civilian. Still with me? Am I communicating effectively here? These people are not going to just walk away without a pound of flesh, whether its from the corporate entity or from you. Maybe both. Add in the fact that some of these people are pretty damned dysfunctional, and...well you understand my concern.
Take my advice: Talk to your lawyer about this. This is not about a program, this is about people who have no connection whatsoever personally with that program, but they're being publicly traumatized. Kids, the people you are allegedly trying to help. It's an unprecedented situation here; you need to re-examine your policies. I would strongly urge a public act of contrition; it will go a long way toward avoiding any unpleasantness.
Again, best of luck. Don't screw up. You've got my best opinion here. No charge.
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I completely understand where you're coming from and I feel for those families, but the policies must remain the same. Once again, what people post here is not our responsibility, legally or otherwise. Whether or not a message posted here is illegal, defamatory, infringing on copyright, etc, is a matter for the courts, and not us. Check for caselaw relating to usenet postings. Usenet (kind of forum) providers are not responsible for the postings of their users and neither are we. All we do is provide a service, a piece of paper for people to write on and exchange messages, exchange data, and we don't interfere with that dataflow. That makes us almost a perfect definition of a service provider. A service provider that operates *exactly* like we do is google newsgroups. If we start moderating, we change that dynamic and it makes us liable to all sorts of things. If we remove what is "offending" we are implicitly stating that everything else on the forum is A-OK. Not to mention it implies we know better than the courts. Not to mention it takes away a poster's right to due process.
I understand people are angry, but if they're angry at this forum, whose admins are sympathetic to the privacy of the kids, they're attacking the wrong people. We aren't responsible and our hands are tied to do anything about the postings. Sorry, but that's the way it is. If you think differently, you're welcome to bring it to court, but I suggest, instead, you take it up with those who are actually responsible: well proxied and CALO, for being irresponsible for the information in the first place.
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And likewise, material that has been posted here which is obviously designed specifically to violate privacy, incite harassment and stalking,
These people’s objection to “harassment” is comical. CALO parents: aren’t you such fans of harassment that you want it used on your kid?
“Staff or student led accountability groups, power groups, or transition groups have also been very helpful in keeping the student community honest, open, and regulated.”
CALO parents: What do you think that means?
Well, that means CALO is using synanon/Chinese thought reform methods of peer denunciation ---“inescapable, organized harassment”--to fracture your child’s mind.
http://www.culthelp.info/index2.php?opt ... =1&id=3090 (http://www.culthelp.info/index2.php?option=com_content&do_pdf=1&id=3090)
These methods were used at Synanon, which divided into CEDU, which divided into Hidden Lake academy, which hired Nicole Fulsgang who visits these torments upon your kid. These torments were used at Provo Canyon and Westridge academy which Ken Huey visits upon your kid.
http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:AXT ... clnk&gl=us (http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:AXTatRdXeKAJ:www.motherjones.com/politics/2007/08/cult-spawned-tough-love-teen-industry+synanon+cult+that+spawmed+tough+love+industry&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us)
http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:nJu ... clnk&gl=us (http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:nJuqlRTAQPQJ:www.heal-online.org/hiddenlake.htm+hiden+lake+acedmy+cedu&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us)
http://www.isaccorp.org/documentsam.asp#hla (http://www.isaccorp.org/documentsam.asp#hla)
If a 100 protestors show up on your lawn demanding you “get honest” about being wretched child abusers remember, that’s the “therapy” you are forcing on your own child.
Well, not really. No protest group can abduct and imprison you and force you to sit there whilst a group of them “hold you accountable.”
No protest group can bend your wrists if you try to “escape,” "for your own safety," and only allow to speak during a “monitored” phone call once a week with anyone but us, and only to people who pay us to imprison and "treat" you, until we decide you BELIEVE you are a child abuser, so it’s not really equitable.
Hint: Ask a psychiatrist if making an adolescent, supposedly too insane to remain at large, or "staff" (notice the lack of the word, "psychiatrist") lead an “accountability group” focusing on keeping another adolescents “honest, open, regulated, and accountable” is a tried and true therapeutic technique. Or if CALO's system of using group pressure, which they so mush as admit to in their materials, to "create change" and control (nonconsenting) participants has been proved effective by research. Ask her to visit this website, look over some of the links and tell you she thinks. I can tell you, according to their own materials, CALO is not offering anything that is recognized clinically as "therapy."
Or.,let this guy tell you more about CALO's techniques."
http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:s0H ... clnk&gl=us (http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:s0HYHBRnREsJ:www.rickross.com/groups/teenboot.html+rick+ross+boot+camps+teen+help&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us)
http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:cSN ... clnk&gl=us (http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:cSNDSJWaxm0J:www.cultnews.com/%3Fcat%3D136+rick+ross+boot+straight+synanon&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us)
http://www.rickross.com/ (http://www.rickross.com/)
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WP, I really wish you would take the kids' pics and surnames down.
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Yes, particularly since the site's "Terms of Service" gives the site that right to remove the content at issue, it almost becomes an obligation, no? At this point, Fornits is clearly participating in this event; they're no longer a pure publisher / distributor.
....
My point is: I don't think you're bad guys. I think you have a point. I also think you are in a bind, since the rules you operate under have allowed someone to expose you to significant liability. And, rest assured, if you don't demonstrate your rejection of this behavior with some alacrity, you will be held accountable. Since I'm (relatively) neutral here, and would just like to see this resolved in an equitable fashion, perhaps you'll take some advice from a stranger: Take the stuff down, then argue about whether to put it back up. Doing it the way you're doing it now guarantees a negative outcome.
Thanks for starting a fire under my arse. I really should have updated that eons ago.
Not too sure about your legal advice, however, as this question has played out again and again, twice actually making it to the point of litigation. So long as we don't tamper with the content except for spam, hacking/flooding, at the request of the poster or in response to a legally binding demand we are not obliged to tamper with the content for any other reason. But I do appreciate your taking the time to write all that out.
And it's important! At least to some of us. As admin, it is absolutely impossible for me to determine whether a statement is fiction, delusion, exaggeration or some other species of bullshit or if it is, in fact, fact. Look around a little bit and you'll see what I mean. Would you believe that in the early days of Elan the staff led the kids in water boarding a girl and then burying her alive? That story first emerged when the Michale Skakel trial was in the headlines. Within about 10 minutes I was receiving demands to delete said defamatory information along with legal threats and all kinds of other harassment. Turns out it wasn't precisely true. The truth is that the staff (or somebody) quickly unburied the girl as soon as soon as they had sent the other kids inside. But these poor folks had lived out 20 odd years of their adult lives believing that they had been forced by a Mafia connected cult leader to take part in a murder. Some of them were very much relieved to have the other side of the story. More than that, maybe, to see demonstrated that we can, indeed, stand up to these sadistic lunatics and not be struck by lightening or sent to sleep with the fishes.
My point is that the area of interest for which I initially set up this forum is so bizarre, so brutal at times there is just no way to discuss it in any meaningful depth without getting pretty damned ugly. In my view, the primary reason that this American gulag archipelago has been able to continue in operation unchecked is because of the secretive nature of cults and high demand groups. When a kid is held incommunicado they can't tell. When they get out, no one will believe them (I actually think that is less true today than it was 10 years ago when I first jumped on Rich Bradburry's, Wes Fager's and Arnold Trebach's train and got involved in this issue). The only other people who "know" what's going on are program staff and operators. And, generally speaking, they are a clannish group who keep themselves somewhat socially insulated from anyone who does not share their views. For the most part, they believe just as steadfastly in the rightness of what they do as any Muslim who ever stoned a woman to death or father who daily beat his son bloody with a belt. One way to get these folks to re-examine their beliefs is to piss them off enough so that they come out and have this conversation out in the more commonly accepted reality outside the walls of their cloistered programs.
I try to operate this server in such a way as to facilitate a broader dialog on topics relating to the troubled parent industry specifically and thought reform, undue influence, mind control generally for as long as we can keep it going. But if, in the end, there be a crushing, stinking pile of liability fallin' down on my head, so be it. I owe for my own involvement when I was a kid and for walking away and not looking back for damned near 20 years. They can only take money from me. These kids, hell their whole families, have suffered far greater loss due, in part, to my sin of silence than any amount of money I could possibly lose.
This is the internet. If it is taken down here, it will pop up somewhere else. Guarantee it. Posts like this remind me how valuable and brave our administrators are.
Thanks, that's sweet! :-*