Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Anonymous on August 14, 2003, 12:10:00 PM
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Come on Betsy, bring it on.
What OUTSIDE or third party did WWASPS hire to determine this rating? In house doesn't count, it seems it is far from objective. You know who they hired? Of course you don't, because they didn't hire any outside satistical firm for a FACTUAL survey. Please, you can't count Randy Cooks little email survey as credible. Well, I guess WWASPS does.
So until you name the objective firm that was hired to determine this success rate, get off your high horse there is NO success rate. The operative word is objective.
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http://www.purerebuttal.com/Satisfaction.pdf (http://www.purerebuttal.com/Satisfaction.pdf)
Looks like this poster didn't read that it's not a "success rate" but a "parent satisfaction rate"
Maybe that would be a question for the Wall firm?
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thanks betsy for leading us to pure again. that dated rebuttal is getting old, the success rate stays a constant. oh sorry parent satisfaction rate. you are right there is a slight difference so answer the quesiton, who is the 3rd party firm that did this rating?
what woudl a pr firm know about this? are they hiring a firm that dose satistics? pr is public relations not surveys. pr is to make them look good, sure htey will use the ken kay randy cook method.
spots is right on. hope you post the story here.
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Quoted from WWASP letter:
"Our high parent satisfaction rate is further evidenced by the fact that we received 1,344 Letters of Appreciation from parents during 2001 and 1,739 Letters of Appreciation from parents during 2002."
What they left out is the fact that one of the seminar homework assignments is to write a letter of appreciation to your child's school, or to WWASP, or to your Family Rep or to all of the above.
So let's recap: There is no independent research that confirms the "satisfation rate" and one of the seminar requirements is to write a letter to the program telling them how wonderful they are. Talk about manipulative....
Judy
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Thanks Judy. Imagine the people when they are tired exhausted etc. from the seminar and then they need to write a letter of appreciation to the program. Write whatever and go to bed. A great article about the seminars is Breaking the Vow of Secrecy. I think it was on the Intrepidnet site. Can anyone find it for us. I read it a year or so ago.
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Judy - First, I'm not Betsy - I attended all the seminars, staffed all the seminars and unless requiring parents to write a "satisfaction" letter has started in the past couple of weeks, you have just confirmed you have not attended.
As far as the vow of secrecy, it's not a secret seminar voodooing everyone into submission to say whatever they tell you say. Get a grip!
The purpose of not sharing the processes with those that have not attended is it would spoil it for them, plain and simple. The seminars are public and many, many people that don't have a kid in a wwasps school program attend for their own personal growth. It's not about the program and if you ever attended you would know that. Maybe it's time????
I personally received a phone call from someone around 6 months after graduation and then around 2 years later. From what I remember, the first was satisfaction, the second was success and included talking with my daughter. They could have been from wwasps, but it seemed like they were from an outside company. I don't know what the success rate is for graduates, but from all the grads I know, it's probably pretty high. The numbers aren't important to me personally.
But, hey, don't take my word for it. I only have about 4 years of experience.
By the way, I won't post my e-mail address here, for obvious reasons. Nothing I say will change your minds, and that's okay. I clicked on the link to this site when I was looking for something related. I find myself wanting to defend my experience...but won't go there.
Darlene
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On 2003-08-14 13:16:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Judy - First, I'm not Betsy -
Darlene - You may want to read my post again. You seem to be attributing comments to me that were not made by me. I said nothing to or about Betsy, nor did I mention any secret seminar voodoo.
I attended all the seminars, staffed all the seminars and unless requiring parents to write a "satisfaction" letter has started in the past couple of weeks, you have just confirmed you have not attended.
I attended Discovery in Concord, California in July of 2000, Bill was facilitator; Focus also in Concord in September of 2000, Lou was facilitator; Visions in San Diego November-December 2000, and as you know Barbara was the facilitator since she is the only one who facilitates Visions. I also staffed Discovery with Bill and Focus with Joyce in the Spring of 2001. I attended Parent Weekend at TB in July 2001 with Jan facilitating. In my Discovery seminar we were all given sheets of stationary to write letters of appreciation and were instructed to give them to the staffers and they would be sent collectively to the programs. I also handed out stationary at the Discovery seminar that I staffed for the same purpose and heard the same instructions. I still have my notes from the Focus I staffed and the following is on one of my notecards "collect letters first, check child's name & facility name".
Tell me Darlene, how has denying truth worked for you in the past? How is it a reflection in your life? What is the pay off for you? How does this show up in your life? What results have you created here by calling me a liar? My coaching to you is to take a BIG step left and trust others, Darlene.
As far as the vow of secrecy, it's not a secret seminar voodooing everyone into submission to say whatever they tell you say. Get a grip!
The purpose of not sharing the processes with those that have not attended is it would spoil it for them, plain and simple. The seminars are public and many, many people that don't have a kid in a wwasps school program attend for their own personal growth. It's not about the program and if you ever attended you would know that. Maybe it's time????
I personally received a phone call from someone around 6 months after graduation and then around 2 years later. From what I remember, the first was satisfaction, the second was success and included talking with my daughter. They could have been from wwasps, but it seemed like they were from an outside company. I don't know what the success rate is for graduates, but from all the grads I know, it's probably pretty high. The numbers aren't important to me personally.
But, hey, don't take my word for it. I only have about 4 years of experience.
By the way, I won't post my e-mail address here, for obvious reasons. Nothing I say will change your minds, and that's okay. I clicked on the link to this site when I was looking for something related. I find myself wanting to defend my experience...but won't go there.
Darlene
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Forgot to sign my name to previous comments.
Judy
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He said/ she said??
Did it ever occur to either one of you that you're both telling the truth?
Betsy
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:???: Guess I'll read some of the postings, but looks like I'm being credited with some posts I didn't make :???:
In answer to your inquiry about the satisfaction rate - what does that have to do with me? I don't think unless I'm a parent, graduate, employee or PR that information would be available to me.
Betsy
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http://www.intrepidnetreporters.com/Tee ... eaking.htm (http://www.intrepidnetreporters.com/TeenHelp/breaking.htm)
http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/des ... rate.shtml (http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/desperate/site-desperate/mpg9-desperate.shtml)
[ This Message was edited by: KarenZ on 2003-10-17 15:59 ]
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Hell, Karen - just send them over to the PURE site - it's all there. Looks like Judy is one of you, so why not ask her what they said. Confrontational? Hehehehehehe :rofl:
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Thanks Karen. I think that article says it all.
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On 2003-08-14 16:39:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Hell, Karen - just send them over to the PURE site - it's all there. Looks like Judy is one of you, so why not ask her what they said. Confrontational? Hehehehehehe :rofl: "
Why don't you ask me directly instead of going through Karen?
Quote from page 16 of the TB parent manual:
"At times the seminar will seem confrontational and emotional, at other times, joyful and loving."
The TASKS Program Office uses the word "confrontational" and I think they would know.
Judy
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Judy - There I go again jumping to conclusions. Yep, I know better! I just "assumed" that each seminar in the different areas had the same homework. I was in LA and San Diego for the seminars and the letter writing to the schools has never been a part of this.
My response to the voodoo, etc., was something I had read on another post. The confrontational part sounded negative from the poster. That was my filter. Counselors are confrontational, the seminars are confrontational in a "get out of your comfort zone" way, but I don't view that as negative. As you know, if it fits take a look at it, if not let it fly!"
How else does my jumping to conclusions show upin my life? More often than I'm conscious of - that's for the feedback.
I don't use "My coaching to you is...., as i've learned that's not coaching in the true sense of the word, it's advice, so thanks for the advice.
Darlene
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" I was in LA and San Diego for the seminars and the letter writing to the schools has never been a part of this. "
The following link is on the Casa by the Sea official page. It contains 12 Letters of Appreciation, with several accompanied by pictures of the writers. All are posed singley in front of a potted plant in a hotel corridor-type setting...pretty obvious it's right after a seminar. All letter-writers are from California, most from within 100 miles of San Diego.
http://www.casabythesea.org./images/pag ... lades.html (http://www.casabythesea.org./images/pages/accolades.html)
If it walks like a duck, and talks like a duck....
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anon -
I don't know what PURE has up and what it dosen't. I pulled the links off intrepid net, and the dsperate messures sites, both of which I have saved in my favorites, as they often come in useful.
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Darlene you wrote:
"It's (attending seminars) not about the program..."
How can you say that?
If it's not about the program, then why are seminars required in order to get out of the program? Why aren't seminars optional? Why are parents "forced" into WWASPs brand of personal growth?
What's the financial arrangement between WWASP and Gilcrease? I've read that Gilcrease designed the seminars specifically for WWASP. If they are for the public, was that a lie?
Why is Gilcrease listed as a defendent in lawsuits against WWASP?
http://www.sltrib.com/2003/Mar/03012003/utah/34117.asp (http://www.sltrib.com/2003/Mar/03012003/utah/34117.asp)
Why do program parents STAFF seminars, collect the letters? Do WWASP parents also receive a fee for referring non-program parents to seminars?
Are non-program parents who wander in off the street, refered to WWASP if they happen to have an "at-risk" teen. Is this part of the arrangement?
And:
"Counselors are confrontational."
Counselor is a professional term that can not be used by persons who do not possess a degree. Are the confrontational "counselors" at WWASP facilities licensed? Are the confrontational "counselors" in the seminars licensed?
Everything I've read indicates that they aren't.
Pretty hefty price tag for non-professional, confrontational "advice".
http://www.resourcerealizations.com/files/cpamphlet.pdf (http://www.resourcerealizations.com/files/cpamphlet.pdf)
"The coaching process stimulates clients to seek answers to questions such as: What do we want to create as a family?"
Family? How do you create anything as a family when one member of the family isn't present, not even available by phone? How do you resolve things with your teen under these conditions? Communication is key in resolution, and seems impossible given you might not speak to your but 2 or 3 times during their sentence.
Re: the Ontological coaching:
Is it divulged to participants that they are participating in a methapysical program? Are the WWASP parents who are forced to attend, made aware of this?
May not matter, but what IF it happened to conflict with their personal or religious belief?
Deborah
_________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
The Dangers of Isolation, Coercion and Torture
http://www.jinxmagazine.com/cia_torture.html (http://www.jinxmagazine.com/cia_torture.html)
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Deborah - To my knowledge parents do not receive any referral fees for the seminars.
You are correct about the use of the title counselor. The seminar facilitators know better than to use that title. To my knowledge, Lou Dozier is the only facilitator with any credentials. She has a masters in psychology.
Judy
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Darlene, When did your child graduate? How long did it take? Do both of you still attend seminars? If so, have you found them to be helpful? Are they only available in Ca?
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The state of transition from childhood to adulthood is, and has always been, wrought with danger. The term "At-risk teen" is redundant. Fact is, anyone who's got a teenaged kid and who's gullible enough to buy into the WWASP world view is a good mark as far as they're concerned.
Time's fun when you're having flies.
--Kermit the Frog
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Ginger,
That was great!!
You should make that one of the "random quotes".
Deborah
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So who was that independent study done by for WWASPS? How did they get 97.4% adn some say 98%, I have seen 96% on some of there stuff.
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I HATE THE PROGRAM I GRADUATED AND I WENT THROUGH HORRIBLE THINGS TO LIVE MY LIFE. THIS PROGRAM FUCKING SUCKS I HATE IT!
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Ryan why do you always have to use such bad language?
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RYAN WHO? WHERE DID IT SAY RYAN? IT SOUNDS LIKE A KID OR FORMER INMATE THAT SUFFERED FROM WWASPS. HOPE HE/SHE CALLS HURON LAW GROUP. 310-284-3400. TAKE THAT ANGER TO THE JUDGE. JUDGEMENT DAY WILL COME SOONER THAN YOU THINK. :wave:
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isnt this funny, WWASPS and success in the same sentence. i wonder if any of the straight people can tell us if straight had bogus success rates too. it seems there are many similiar patterns what about this?
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On 2003-08-15 09:44:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
Darlene, When did your child graduate? How long did it take? Do both of you still attend seminars? If so, have you found them to be helpful? Are they only available in Ca?"
My "child" graduated in early 2001. As for how long it took - it took not one day less than was needed. To be more specific - 14 months. We don't staff seminars on a regular basis, but have twice this year. I staffed a Visions, and he staffed a Focus at his former school. We staffed a Discovery together recently. Do they help? I know I wouldn't be living my life the same way if I hadn't experienced them. Again, they are open to the public so sign up, go and enjoy.
Someone said the seminars are required. The only one that is required is the first one and only if you want to join your child for the parent/child seminars. I sometimes think it's because it sends a clear message to your child you're also willing to let go of what hasn't been working for you personally and within the family. If your life is perfect and everything is working out great, there's no reason to waste your time. If it's against their beliefs, then they need to choose a program that doesn't base it's philosophy on personal growth.
To my knowledge the facilitators don't call themselves counselors. Their life experience speaks volumes and all the degrees in the world won't change that. Anyone that has been in a seminar with them will be better for it if they choose to be. I don't even think the first one should be required. Let the parents see what they're missing when the are face to face with their child.
Gotta go - Darlene
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SPOTS - that's 10 or so out of the hundred + that were there. Did other seminars do this on the spot or was there a staff member attending the seminar that wanted to take some photos back to the kids and got a little happiness from the parents tp post on their website in the process?
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On 2003-08-15 10:09:00, Antigen wrote:
"The state of transition from childhood to adulthood is, and has always been, wrought with danger. The term "At-risk teen" is redundant. Fact is, anyone who's got a teenaged kid and who's gullible enough to buy into the WWASP world view is a good mark as far as they're concerned.
Time's fun when you're having flies.
--Kermit the Frog
"
So one teen get pissed at their parents for not letting them drive the car, dabbles a bit in drinking or smoking, grades slip now and then, lies some. That is normal teenage growing and learning.
On the other had you have one that is destroying property, hitting the parents, running away, hooked on drugs, quitting school, stealing on a regular basis, gets arrested or kicked out of school, the parents can no longer enforce rules of any kind...are you saying this is okay and that a wwasp or similar program wouldn't benefit?
Betsy
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On 2003-08-15 19:00:00, Anonymous wrote:
...are you saying this is okay and that a wwasp or similar program wouldn't benefit?
Betsy
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I think we are all in agreement that wwasp benefits. :lol:
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I did a little keyword search on Ontological Coaching and it's pretty much the same information. I looked at the Resource Realizations course for certification and it looks like their coaches have studied these principles.
Interesting stuff - I don't see where it's new age or metaphysical completely. It looks pretty down to earth and fits into "being human." Here's just one of the web sites I found that explains it.
http://www.newfieldaus.com.au/articles/ ... aching.htm (http://www.newfieldaus.com.au/articles/MethodologyOfOntologicalCoaching.htm)
Betsy
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Main Entry: on·tol·o·gy
Pronunciation: än-'tä-l&-jE
Function: noun
Etymology: New Latin ontologia, from ont- + -logia -logy
Date: circa 1721
1 : a branch of metaphysics concerned with the nature and relations of being
2 : a particular theory about the nature of being or the kinds of existents
http://216.239.37.104/search?q=cache:2N ... n&ie=UTF-8 (http://216.239.37.104/search?q=cache:2NaWiBAdWNAJ:www.sbg.ac.at/phil/kriterion/documents/16/16daigle.pdf+ontology+%2B+metaphysics&hl=en&ie=UTF-8)
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Interesting stuff! Heidegger is a bit deep, and is a course of study at universities around the world! Thanks for the info. WWASPS has certified ontological coaches. Far and above anything else out there.
B
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Just a little excerpt from one of the coaches off the http://www.resourcerealizations.com/coaching (http://www.resourcerealizations.com/coaching) website:
Ontological Coaching focuses on coaching to our way of being. Our way of being is the underlying driver of our communication and behavior. A persons communicative competence and behavioural effectiveness is shaped by their way of being and who they are in their world.
Way of being is seen as a dynamic interplay between three interrelated spheres of human existence - language, emotions and body. An ontological coach seeks to generate learning in all spheres as the catalyst for substantial and sustainable change.
Our way of being shapes our perceptions and worldview. An ontological coach is able to uncover beliefs that keep us trapped in obsolete ways of being, which limit learning, reduce effectiveness and compromise the quality of life. Together we will create processes that allow for a shift in being and create opportunity to evolve in who you are as an individual, family, and in this world. This includes what is possible for creating a better future.
I like the neufeld site which explains it more indepth. Really good stuff!
B