Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Tengu on April 03, 2009, 11:01:45 PM
-
Hello all,
Some of you may remember research that I provided for public critique back at the beginning of February. I have since done further research, and have found rather intriguing points of law that may apply.
In addition, I have now talked with federal authorities (FBI) who may be interested in being our enforcement on the matter. As you might recall, that was the biggest problem with the research I provided – a lot of it was impossible or, at the very least, extremely difficult to enforce. Regardless, the FBI is now interested.
What I need now is corroborating support: people who are willing to talk to federal officials about what they endured and/or witnessed. The key thing here is this: we need to keep to the facts. We need to let the facts speak, and not “bash” any facility or program (regardless of however much they deserve it). So again, stick to the facts of the situation.
If you’re willing to talk to the Feds on this matter, please email me at thunderhawk255@yahoo.com with:
1) Your full name,
2) Facility/program you attended,
3) Dates when you were at the facility,
4) Any position of authority you hold with any anti-gulag organization,
5) Any psychological disorder (i.e. PTSD) that has been medically diagnosed and deemed to be caused by time spent in the program/facility (if you do not want to provide this, I understand),
6) Email address,
7) Your day-time phone number.
If you were the victim of a “teen escort” service, please provide that information as well. Make the subject of the email “WITNESS” (all caps, no quotations) so that I do not accidentally trash your email.
Folks, I cannot promise you that this will not fall through, but we do have a significant chance here to Nagasaki the industry. I have the hard evidence already compiled and contact is secure with the officials, but I am going to need supporting witnesses in order to make this go through.
I cannot overstate the value of corroborating witnesses/victims here. There’s a big difference between handing an agent all the evidence and saying “here’s your case. Call me if you have problems” and handing them the evidence plus a nice long list of people who they can talk to who in turn can back up everything I just handed them. Corroborating eyewitnesses completely change the game and lend strength to the evidence that it otherwise would not have had (and, further, can provide the grounds for pressing specific charges, etc). The case shifts from being a case of intelligence brought by one single person who may not know what they’re talking about to a case where everything can be validated by firsthand eyewitnesses – the dynamic of the public/investigator interaction is completely shifted.
We have a very good chance here to make some great progress (but again, no promises). If you want to be a part of it, all it takes is a simple email and a possible conversation with a federal agent. That’s it. So please, shoot me a quick email. There is no such thing as too many witnesses here.
Please note that I also need “expert witnesses” to refer the FBI to – ex. someone who’s studied the industry and has published a book on the problems, have a “Dr.” in front of their name, etc. If you have someone like this in mind, please send them my information and encourage them to get in touch with me (as I will NOT give the FBI a person’s contact information without that person’s expressed consent to do so).
Best regards to all,
Adam Zarnowski
-
Needs more Phil Elberg (attorney), if the feds haven't talked to him yet.
Tengu, you have an account with three posts, asking people to send their personal information to an @yahoo.com email address, on a board notable for its high troll count. You might want to rethink that strategy.
-
Come on, lay off Adam. Perhaps he is the savior we have all been waiting for. Lead us to the promised land Adam, a world without programs!
-
Yup Adam zarnowski is definitely a troll.
someone doing a serious investigation would not ask question 4 or 5. only a troll working the industry would want that info. the fbi would ask different questions.
Furthermore, if adam really is in touch with the FBI, asking question 4 indicates that he is still on the other side. the FBI is no doubt investigation this site. keep that in mind my fellow forni.
adam, if your not a troll do this:
talk to your fbi agent and have a secure .gov or .fbi email adress set up to receive strictly witness information on this case. have an agent come on here and give out his contact information so i can call him myself (annon first) and ascertain that this is not a set up. then i'll send my information to a .gov address. not yahoo.
do you really expect a "real" witness who is willing to actually show up to court anywhere in the country to send out their information to a yahoo account to someone they dont know? phulease.....
-
Fine. I have no problem with directing the agent to here when I submit my data to him.
However, I would ask that you take a look at my "other 2 posts" - actually, you needn't see the second one as it was a simple reply about a YouTube video. So look at the first one before calling me a troll. A troll would not have spent nearly 3 months compiling research that intricately detailed to submit for review by people on this forum (and other survivor groups) before acting on it's findings. So please, reconsider my motivations.
I also understand your concerns - I can also see why question four would raise flags (five I'm a little perplexed over, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on that one). Yes, I have a Yahoo account and I'm having data sent there. I also have a Suddenlink account that I don't use - would that be any better? The only person who's seeing or is going to see the data that I've asked for is 1) me and 2) any federal agents who get involved with this case. Everything gets trashed and deleted after I've put it into my summary to the FBI. But if you are certain you do not want to send it to me then, as I said before, I can get the FBI to come on this site or provide me with an .gov address to send data to after I've submitted the evidence.
Folks, I'm not the enemy here - I'm trying to help.
Also, I'm not with the FBI. I am not a federal agent. The data I'm asking for is to reinforce my hard evidence that the FBI is interested in seeing and possibly pursuing - reread my above post if you need to before telling me what kind of questions I should be asking.
-
You may want to ask your FBI contact to reference the Government Accountability Office (FKA Government Accounting Office) Committee on Education and Labour http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkmGgH11Dmk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkmGgH11Dmk)
-
You may want to ask your FBI contact to reference the Government Accountability Office (FKA Government Accounting Office) Committee on Education and Labour http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkmGgH11Dmk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkmGgH11Dmk)
I have one important segment from the Oct. 2007 hearing that illustrates a portion of the legal avenues I'm pursuing, but the GAO report completely slipped my mind... thank God I haven't sent anything substantial in just yet.
Thank you for the link - I'll add that in ASAP. That can go a long ways towards credibility of the evidence and showing the scope of the problem.
Folks, if you see something that you think could help, please provide it. I'm not discussing what legal angles I'm using to go after the bad guys, but if 1 out of 100 (exaggerated figures, but you get the point) suggestions can improve my case, I want it.
-
Come to think of it, you can even tell the FBI guy to reference their own organization.
35. The FBI investigated Straight in 1993 for insurance fraud. There have been no indictments to date. Contact FBI Special Agent Charlotte Brazil, St Petersburg, Fl.
http://thestraights.com/the-straights/k ... buses2.htm (http://thestraights.com/the-straights/kids-nj/newton-abuses2.htm)
-
Come to think of it, you can even tell the FBI guy to reference their own organization.
35. The FBI investigated Straight in 1993 for insurance fraud. There have been no indictments to date. Contact FBI Special Agent Charlotte Brazil, St Petersburg, Fl.
http://thestraights.com/the-straights/k ... buses2.htm (http://thestraights.com/the-straights/kids-nj/newton-abuses2.htm)
Thanks for the suggestion; however, I prefer not to comment on this issue at this time.
-
Tengu, i have an idea:
start a blog where people can submit their testimony minus their names, after signing an agreement that they submit them under penalty of perjury. Then when the feds get interested we can foward our names and dates to the fed agent interested.
That would be something most people would be willing to submit their expereinces on, i would
-
Tengu, i have an idea:
start a blog where people can submit their testimony minus their names, after signing an agreement that they submit them under penalty of perjury. Then when the feds get interested we can foward our names and dates to the fed agent interested.
That would be something most people would be willing to submit their expereinces on, i would
oh yes, that blurb we sign should include the stipulation that we are willing to testify to our experiences in court and to investigators.
I'm pretty sure youre genuine, but the people behind these cults are sociopaths and pretending to be a decent, caring person to get our names to head off lawsuits is certainly not beneath them, they do torture and murder young people by the 10s of thousands.
If you like, add your general address (state) and phone #, so people can see you really exist. You dont have to worry about crank calls. People's full names and telephone #s, including those of a group of wwasp refferrers, have been posted and no one has ever had problems--except maybe miller newton
-
start a blog where people can submit their testimony minus their names, after signing an agreement that they submit them under penalty of perjury.
That’s a GREAT idea. I’ll get it all setup in the morning (I’m dead beat tonight) and post the link here ASAP.
However, if someone here wants to take the initiative and set one up (with a blurb reading, word for word, “I agree that the information I am providing here as testimony is true to the best of my knowledge and agree that I submit them under penalty of perjury. I am willing to testify to investigators and in courts of law as to that which I have submitted.”) on their own tonight I would have no objections whatsoever – just provide me the link here and I can pass it along to the Feds when I turn everything in. I don't know how anyone can actually sign the agreement, but... the blurb should be binding enough to stick.
I'm pretty sure youre genuine, but the people behind these cults are sociopaths and pretending to be a decent, caring person to get our names to head off lawsuits is certainly not beneath them, they do torture and murder young people by the 10s of thousands.
I understand everyone's concern on this matter completely – someone who can torture children and teens for fun and profit can certainly present a fake identity online without a flinch.
People's full names and telephone #s, including those of a group of wwasp refferrers, have been posted and no one has ever had problems--except maybe miller newton
I must say that I thoroughly enjoyed reading the thread with Newton’s phone number in it.
I live in San Angelo, Texas. I’m formerly a Director of NYRA and my posts can be read on the NYRA forums (same screen name: Tengu). Although I started out in NYRA, I prefer to think of myself as “freelance” now, and not associated with any group or organization (no bad blood, I just operate better and accomplish more this way).
I am hesitant to post my phone number publicly, but you can email me or message me over the forums to request it and I’ll happily oblige (as it would be rather hypocritical for me to ask everyone else to send me their number to forward to the Feds while I keep mine clandestine from everyone).
-AZ
-
I'm not sure you can say "under penalty of perjury" here because the writer is not under oath. Not sure why you'd want to, either, as they will be placed under oath if/when interviewed by investigators. Here's how Arnold Trebach asked us to do it. Write up your story in affidavit form, have several copies notarized and then file them with each tier of authority; local DAs (both local to the program and one to the DA in your jurisdiction of residence), state(s) (same) and Federal. But even if you're not ready to do this, still post the story on the blog.
I also think you should provide several options wrt willingness to testify under oath; Yes, no, possibly. This way you get the stories out and make contact with the writers but without requiring a serious commitment up front.
-
I'm not sure you can say "under penalty of perjury" here because the writer is not under oath. Not sure why you'd want to, either, as they will be placed under oath if/when interviewed by investigators. Here's how Arnold Trebach asked us to do it. Write up your story in affidavit form, have several copies notarized and then file them with each tier of authority; local DAs (both local to the program and one to the DA in your jurisdiction of residence), state(s) (same) and Federal. But even if you're not ready to do this, still post the story on the blog.
I also think you should provide several options wrt willingness to testify under oath; Yes, no, possibly. This way you get the stories out and make contact with the writers but without requiring a serious commitment up front.
Everything Antigen just said is the way to go in my opinion. A blog and affidavits (if you’re willing to provide one) would settle everything here. Follow what he said here – it allocates for everything.
Now this part is a bit… humiliating. I have tried to set up the blog we were discussing, but I’m having a little trouble getting it to match the parameters we wanted to include. I’m far from a blog expert – I’ve only set one up to where it’s fully functional (the one where I published my research) and so I am bowing out at this point in regard to the blog due to sheer frustration.
However, this may be for the best. It probably should be operated by survivors only for survivors – this would, in my estimation, increase its value further down the line when I provide the link to the FBI. If it is not too much to ask, I’d appreciate being provided a link when someone sets it up.
Also, please note that I will no longer accept the requested emailed information in my first post in this thread after 24 hours of this post. This is due to the possibility of industry members posing as survivors in order to tell the feds how absolutely astounding their program was. After the 24-hour mark, I ask that you set up the blog as Antigen suggested, post there and/or file affidavits unless I can otherwise verify your identity somehow.
Sorry folks, but this was the plan long before I posted or sent out anything.
I hope everyone will understand now why I understood your concerns over my motivations/loyalties – we’re all looking over our shoulders for fear of the same thing.
-AZ
-
However, this may be for the best. It probably should be operated by survivors only for survivors – this would, in my estimation, increase its value further down the line when I provide the link to the FBI. I
You can set it up, i dont really care if its operated by a survior or not. I doubt anyone cares either :)
But, if u can't figure out how to do it...maybe Antigen, you could set up a forum, here, for it, where submissions need your "approval" (weed out trolls)?
-
The FBI? You guys are too much. :roflmao:
-
When reporting your experience to the authorities--whenever and however you choose--I recommend you also tell them about any disability you may have had prior to going into the program, such as ADD/ADHD, dislexia, or mental illness, such as depression, bipolar, etc. This information is of material significance to law enforcement because the Americans with Disabilities Act contains enforcement provisions that may apply and may give the authorities greater ability to intervene/investigate.
Auntie Em
-
However, this may be for the best. It probably should be operated by survivors only for survivors – this would, in my estimation, increase its value further down the line when I provide the link to the FBI. I
You can set it up, i dont really care if its operated by a survior or not. I doubt anyone cares either :)
But, if u can't figure out how to do it...maybe Antigen, you could set up a forum, here, for it, where submissions need your "approval" (weed out trolls)?
-
maybe Psy can help set this blog up on www.troubled-teen-industry.com (http://www.troubled-teen-industry.com) we could password protect it in order to protect our identities but I would still only recommend posting our emails and letting the authorities get a hold of us (via a verifiable email address)
-
When reporting your experience to the authorities--whenever and however you choose--I recommend you also tell them about any disability you may have had prior to going into the program, such as ADD/ADHD, dislexia, or mental illness, such as depression, bipolar, etc. This information is of material significance to law enforcement because the Americans with Disabilities Act contains enforcement provisions that may apply and may give the authorities greater ability to intervene/investigate.
Auntie Em
:wall: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:
come on! get real for a second here. what do you think the FBI would do with a letter like this...
Dear Mister FBI Agent Man,
When I was a teenager I had a mental illness and drug problem. (what a great way to start a letter, basically discredit yourself before even starting ) My parents sent me to a behavior modification facility where I was abused. This was six years ago, and I don't remember the names of the people who abused me. They also brainwashed me. Please help shut down this facility as soon as possible. Now that you are aware of this problem, I will expect the problem to be solved very quickly. Thank you mista FBI agent man,
Yours Truly,
Program Survivor #5
That letter is going straight in the trash, if they even read it.
-
maybe Psy can help set this blog up on http://www.troubled-teen-industry.com (http://www.troubled-teen-industry.com) we could password protect it in order to protect our identities but I would still only recommend posting our emails and letting the authorities get a hold of us (via a verifiable email address)
You could have a blanket "I was victimized by and witnessed an organized, top-down, system of torture and thought reform." i will testify to that under penalty of perjury," statment and everyone's email next to it who was willing to provide background.
-
maybe Psy can help set this blog up on http://www.troubled-teen-industry.com (http://www.troubled-teen-industry.com) we could password protect it in order to protect our identities but I would still only recommend posting our emails and letting the authorities get a hold of us (via a verifiable email address)
You could have a blanket "I was victimized by and witnessed an organized, top-down, system of torture and thought reform." i will testify to that under penalty of perjury," statement and everyone's email next to it who was willing to provide background.
a petition of sorts, maybe with room to elaborate on certain details.
-
maybe Psy can help set this blog up on http://www.troubled-teen-industry.com (http://www.troubled-teen-industry.com) we could password protect it in order to protect our identities but I would still only recommend posting our emails and letting the authorities get a hold of us (via a verifiable email address)
You could have a blanket "I was victimized by and witnessed an organized, top-down, system of torture and thought reform." i will testify to that under penalty of perjury," statement and everyone's email next to it who was willing to provide background.
a petition of sorts, maybe with room to elaborate on certain details.
Yes. A blog of sorts with a statement that relates that the undersigned witnessed, or participated in, or were victims of, organizations which practiced organized systems of torture, thought reform or other abuses and we are willing to speak to agents about it.
we could even dedicate a forum in fornits to that.
-
When reporting your experience to the authorities--whenever and however you choose--I recommend you also tell them about any disability you may have had prior to going into the program, such as ADD/ADHD, dislexia, or mental illness, such as depression, bipolar, etc. This information is of material significance to law enforcement because the Americans with Disabilities Act contains enforcement provisions that may apply and may give the authorities greater ability to intervene/investigate.
Auntie Em
:wall: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:
come on! get real for a second here. what do you think the FBI would do with a letter like this...
Dear Mister FBI Agent Man,
When I was a teenager I had a mental illness and drug problem. (what a great way to start a letter, basically discredit yourself before even starting ) My parents sent me to a behavior modification facility where I was abused. This was six years ago, and I don't remember the names of the people who abused me. They also brainwashed me. Please help shut down this facility as soon as possible. Now that you are aware of this problem, I will expect the problem to be solved very quickly. Thank you mista FBI agent man,
Yours Truly,
Program Survivor #5
That letter is going straight in the trash, if they even read it.
a prime example of how programs underestimate survivors. they think were all broken down, reclusive, mentally ill drug addicts. they think that we have always and will always be somehow beneath them.
they couldn't be more wrong....
-
OK, here’s an update:
I’ve heard back from the FBI and spoke to several individuals at the DoJ (there was a time that I never thought I’d say that).
I do not want to go into details out of concern of who’s reading this, but I can readily state that both the FBI and DoJ are taking us seriously, taking this issue very seriously, and are pursuing everything that I handed them with extreme interest.
Again, I am not saying we won here as we have not, and things could still turn south; however, everything looks very promising. Nonetheless, I don’t want anyone to think that this battle is far from over – we still have a lot of ground to cover here. But again, everything looks very promising.
I’d recommend getting some system of collecting testimony up and running on these forums as has been discussed previously in this thread ASAP.
-AZ
-
OK, here’s an update:
I’ve heard back from the FBI and spoke to several individuals at the DoJ (there was a time that I never thought I’d say that).
I do not want to go into details out of concern of who’s reading this, but I can readily state that both the FBI and DoJ are taking us seriously, taking this issue very seriously, and are pursuing everything that I handed them with extreme interest.
Again, I am not saying we won here as we have not, and things could still turn south; however, everything looks very promising. Nonetheless, I don’t want anyone to think that this battle is far from over – we still have a lot of ground to cover here. But again, everything looks very promising.
I’d recommend getting some system of collecting testimony up and running on these forums as has been discussed previously in this thread ASAP.
-AZ
Great. Why not set up a moderated forum on this board for that?
-
Great. Why not set up a moderated forum on this board for that?
We have one: Facilities Questions and answers
-
Great. Why not set up a moderated forum on this board for that?
We have one: Facilities Questions and answers
That's a general question and answer forum.
Set up a forum that let's people know that it is where posters, who are interested, can give a run-down of their experience and stipulate that they willing to talk to people at a govt agency about it.
-
Great. Why not set up a moderated forum on this board for that?
We have one: Facilities Questions and answers
That's a general question and answer forum.
Set up a forum that let's people know that it is where posters, who are interested, can give a run-down of their experience and stipulate that they willing to talk to people at a govt agency about it.
I'm not sure a forum format would be appropriate for what you're suggesting (but the final decision is up to Ginger). Probably the best option for somebody wanting to tell their story on the record is to submit a sworn statement to ISACcorp. From there, ISAC can act as an intermediary if a person wants to get in contact with the authorities... For example, if I went to TBS A, I write out my experience as a sworn statement, submit it to isaccorp and let them know i'd be willing to speak to the authorities if they are contacted about the statement (of they can ask me if they are contacted). ISACcorp generally publishes statements anonymously, but since they're sworn statements, they do keep signed copies on file.
Regardless of the approach, the problem your going to run into is taht although people are sometimes willing to tell their story publicly, they're far less likely to want to get into an open battle with a school by contacting the authorities (asking somebody to tell their story anonymously is difficult as it is, but it's still far easier than asking a person to go on public record and testify in court in front of those who hurt them). Many just want to move on and try to forget. Few believe that if they go to the authorities anything will get done anyway (and sometimes they're right)... There are many factors here. Maybe if somebody came forward and had sucess with the authorities things might be different, but the general trust in authority of ex-program participants tends to be very low (and with good reason). If it's one thing program taught me, is how might does not make right, how power corrupts, and how those in authoritiy often shouldn't be. I can't say I have much faith in the state, and studying the history of programs has only reinforced this view (I feel media, and speaking out does the most). If you think the state is the best way to go, however, CAFETY would be a good start.
-
You are definitely flexing your right wing extremist muscles tonight. :eek:
-
Great. Why not set up a moderated forum on this board for that?
We have one: Facilities Questions and answers
That's a general question and answer forum.
Set up a forum that let's people know that it is where posters, who are interested, can give a run-down of their experience and stipulate that they willing to talk to people at a govt agency about it.
I'm not sure a forum format would be appropriate for what you're suggesting (but the final decision is up to Ginger). Probably the best option for somebody wanting to tell their story on the record is to submit a sworn statement to ISACcorp. From there, ISAC can act as an intermediary if a person wants to get in contact with the authorities... For example, if I went to TBS A, I write out my experience as a sworn statement, submit it to isaccorp and let them know i'd be willing to speak to the authorities if they are contacted about the statement (of they can ask me if they are contacted). ISACcorp generally publishes statements anonymously, but since they're sworn statements, they do keep signed copies on file.
Regardless of the approach, the problem your going to run into is taht although people are sometimes willing to tell their story publicly, they're far less likely to want to get into an open battle with a school by contacting the authorities (asking somebody to tell their story anonymously is difficult as it is, but it's still far easier than asking a person to go on public record and testify in court in front of those who hurt them). Many just want to move on and try to forget. Few believe that if they go to the authorities anything will get done anyway (and sometimes they're right)... There are many factors here. Maybe if somebody came forward and had sucess with the authorities things might be different, but the general trust in authority of ex-program participants tends to be very low (and with good reason). If it's one thing program taught me, is how might does not make right, how power corrupts, and how those in authoritiy often shouldn't be. I can't say I have much faith in the state, and studying the history of programs has only reinforced this view (I feel media, and speaking out does the most). If you think the state is the best way to go, however, CAFETY would be a good start.
What are you talking about? This guy says he has the Feds interested in helping survivors press charges against criminals, and whatever else they're interested in.
This opprotunity shouldnt be used as a channel for anyone to push their philosophical theories about “the state.”
Maybe some people aren’t willing to talk to the Feds. So what? Some people are.
Why not have forum HERE so that can be facilitated?
If its just going ot be ISAC put a sticky up so people know about it at least.
-
You are definitely flexing your right wing extremist muscles tonight. :eek:
Right wing and left wing are oversimplifications. There are more than two modes of political/social/philosophical thought.
-
What are you talking about? This guy says he has the Feds interested in helping survivors press charges against criminals, and whatever else they're interested in.
This opprotunity shouldnt be used as a channel for anyone to push their philosophical theories about “the state.”
IN no way am I saying people shouldn't be prosecuted for their crimes. Alls i'm saying is that there are organizations already dedicated to the purpose, and creating a separate forum here would be redundant. Ginger will probably be willing if there is enough support (it would be unreasonable to create a forum for everybody who asked... it would flood the main page, which is stuffed as it is.)... but you'll probably have to come up with a solid rationale... a reason why something is needed and what it can provide that nobody else currently does. What, exactly, did you want the purpose of this new forum to be? How would it be organized, how would it work? Would each thread be per-testimony or per-program. Would people provide contact information or would the feds contact people through PMs or emails (probably preferable). Ultimately the decision is up to Ginger, and not me. She's said in the past, though, that she'll create a forum for anybody who wants it
Maybe some people aren’t willing to talk to the Feds. So what? Some people are.
And currently there are ways of doing that... the simplest being to call up the FBI or contact the OP to get in touch with the investigating agent (who should also be aware of agents provocateurs who I guarantee would likely try to contact the feds as "survivors" and act purposefully crazy to detract from the reality of the situation...)
Why not have forum HERE so that can be facilitated?
If its just going ot be ISAC put a sticky up so people know about it at least.
Well. You have to understand that Fornits isn't an organization per-se, but rather an open forum where people can hang out and talk about stuff that would likely be censored elsewhere.
-
O.K. So what's the next step? Tengu, the admin doesn't seem interested in hosting a forum here. How would you like people to proceed from this point?
-
You can have Psy move this thread over to FQA -- which is moderated -- if you want... The CAN forum might seem appropriate save for the issue of Guest posts getting stuck in limbo; that is, until a Moderator gets around to approving them.
If you have a forum with not enough activity, it tends to discourage posting to some degree. I think your best bet is to be in a forum with some activity, but not as much as TTI (so your thread(s) will tend to stay on the first page). Just my 43¢, FWIW...
—•?•0•?•—
I have a question for the Feds about what kind of statutes of limitation we are dealing with here. How recently must the abuse have occurred? I guess it would depend on the crime, eh? Although some might call crimes of this nature against children to be "crimes against humanity," to which there are no statutes of limitation, if I recall correctly...
-
I'm rarely one to don the tin hat, but in this case, if the feds are truly interested in hearing this stuff, I would sure as golly cunt like to know why, because that, I feel, is certainly relevant. Feds are NOT people I trust, and I never will.
p.s. I didnt read this whole thread because I am lazy, so sorry if this has already been addressed.
-
O.K. So what's the next step? Tengu, the admin doesn't seem interested in hosting a forum here. How would you like people to proceed from this point?
That's not what I said. I also said the final say was up to ginger. All I asked for was a bit more justification. If the same thing is provided elsewhere, doing it here would be redundant.
Look. There are already hundreds on thousands of survivor stories on this board, but they're hard to find because this is a forum format. I can see the same thing happening on a new subforum if there aren't some constraints in place. If you have a solid plan on how the board would be run, what would be the rules, etc, then let's hear it.
-
O.K. So what's the next step? Tengu, the admin doesn't seem interested in hosting a forum here. How would you like people to proceed from this point?
That's not what I said. I also said the final say was up to ginger. All I asked for was a bit more justification. If the same thing is provided elsewhere, doing it here would be redundant.
Look. There are already hundreds on thousands of survivor stories on this board, but they're hard to find because this is a forum format. I can see the same thing happening on a new subforum if there aren't some constraints in place. If you have a solid plan on how the board would be run, what would be the rules, etc, then let's hear it.
Yes, yes, my friend.
I just wanted to get some feedbacl from Tengu about the technical issues you raised and what he thinks is the next step should be, with these considerations in mind, since this is something he's initiating. I think a sticky thread on the top of the TT industry might be worth a try.
i wasn't trying to make you out to be a tyrant. You made relevent points about the problems of having a new forum just for this. Trolls will be a concern, (though considering its quite dangerous to "troll" the FBI, hopefully they'll stay out of this.)
-
It's just that I can't make a new forum for everybody who asked or the front page would get too cluttered (it's pretty bad as it is). I'd also hate to set up a forum and then not have it used. The FBI also might have some constraints on how they want this done. If they want people to just contact them directly and no agents will check the forum, then there is really no point... but that's up to them.
-
I thought I'd toss this out for chewing over: the forum is public. Since when do you want the product of a criminal investigation public? Might it not be better to have testimony provided in a private fashion? If the FBI wants to read Fornits they certainly can - but I can't see random and largely anonymous postings being useable evidence in a court of law. Maybe I am wrong. And maybe they just need to show there is a reasonable suspicion of abuse and fraud to justify doing an investigation - and the forum could help a lot with that. But look- kid - why not have people who want to provide testimony write you up an account, have it notarized as an affirmation and send it to you - or maybe ISAC if they are able to take on the job - Or, have people contact you and you can then forward their contact info to the interested agent - who can follow up when they are able. ISAC already has a declaration page up. That might be a good way to go about gathering statments for the investigation; and they no doubt have years worth of statements already on file. Have you contacted ISAC?
I have a lot of statements that might be of interest - but in many cases I am no longer in contact with the authors. Still, if they would be of interest PM me - or email. Email is better. Actually, I once spoke with an FBI agent. If you have one who'd like to look at that case file get us in touch and I'll tell him the agents name and what office the file is in.
-
I was actually just getting on here to say that I think sending everything to ISAC is the way to go. This makes far more sense than anything that I can think of. We just need to compile testimony so we are ready to hand it over at a moment’s notice in the future.
In addition, I need to make one urgent point clear, as I was kicking myself all day yesterday in the car for not having said it in my “update” post: I am no longer in the “need to know” circle of this; it’s no longer my game. The FBI and the DoJ have the ball, and I will, if this goes the way it did last time, most likely not be told anything more than what I already know until I hear about it in the news. The data has left the San Angelo office for investigative purposes, and so I am left with what I have been told and the picture that that knowledge paints.
I can forward information on to the FBI and direct people in the right direction, but there is absolutely no information flow in the other direction. It’s a one-way street, just as it should be.
And, essentially, you’re all as capable of getting testimony/sworn affidavits to the FBI as I am at this point. It’s no longer a lone wolf operation as the lone wolf has no greater “need to know” than anyone else.
So again, it’s no longer my carefully-planned, carefully-executed ballgame. That part’s over. The people with the guns and badges have the ball.
I feel I must also state that the individuals I spoke with at the DoJ seemed to know a lot about these places, and as such, probably know about their distraction methods and “agent provocateurs”. Moreover, the industry doesn’t even know precisely where to go to hamper investigations as I built a figurative dam on the information flow when it comes to public knowledge from day 1. Even the people who helped me with this don’t know the full story. The people who do know work for federal investigative agencies or are the person who is typing this. This was all carefully planned and orchestrated.
Besides, toying with the investigation at this time constitutes interfering with a federal investigation and/or lying to federal officials. In all honesty, I hope that the industry does attempt to mess with things so we get guaranteed arrests :)
-
I was actually just getting on here to say that I think sending everything to ISAC is the way to go. This makes far more sense than anything that I can think of. We just need to compile testimony so we are ready to hand it over at a moment’s notice in the future.
In addition, I need to make one urgent point clear, as I was kicking myself all day yesterday in the car for not having said it in my “update” post: I am no longer in the “need to know” circle of this; it’s no longer my game. The FBI and the DoJ have the ball, and I will, if this goes the way it did last time, most likely not be told anything more than what I already know until I hear about it in the news. The data has left the San Angelo office for investigative purposes, and so I am left with what I have been told and the picture that that knowledge paints.
I can forward information on to the FBI and direct people in the right direction, but there is absolutely no information flow in the other direction. It’s a one-way street, just as it should be.
And, essentially, you’re all as capable of getting testimony/sworn affidavits to the FBI as I am at this point. It’s no longer a lone wolf operation as the lone wolf has no greater “need to know” than anyone else.
So again, it’s no longer my carefully-planned, carefully-executed ballgame. That part’s over. The people with the guns and badges have the ball.
I feel I must also state that the individuals I spoke with at the DoJ seemed to know a lot about these places, and as such, probably know about their distraction methods and “agent provocateurs”. Moreover, the industry doesn’t even know precisely where to go to hamper investigations as I built a figurative dam on the information flow when it comes to public knowledge from day 1. Even the people who helped me with this don’t know the full story. The people who do know work for federal investigative agencies or are the person who is typing this. This was all carefully planned and orchestrated.
Besides, toying with the investigation at this time constitutes interfering with a federal investigation and/or lying to federal officials. In all honesty, I hope that the industry does attempt to mess with things so we get guaranteed arrests :)
thank you adom. Amazing to me that anyone is as decent as you. So, i send my testimony over to ISAC, then?
-
O.K. So what's the next step? Tengu, the admin doesn't seem interested in hosting a forum here. How would you like people to proceed from this point?
That's not what I said. I also said the final say was up to ginger. All I asked for was a bit more justification. If the same thing is provided elsewhere, doing it here would be redundant.
Look. There are already hundreds on thousands of survivor stories on this board, but they're hard to find because this is a forum format. I can see the same thing happening on a new subforum if there aren't some constraints in place. If you have a solid plan on how the board would be run, what would be the rules, etc, then let's hear it.
Tell ginger to make a subforum on the FQA forum and I'll keep an eye on it myself, but I'll need my mod privelages back for the FQA.
-
I see most everyone is leaning towards having ISAC handling the reports. Disregard my last message, I like the ISAC idea better than using an open forum.
The only question that I have is does ISAC know and agree to the role they are being asked to play?
-
That is a perfectly valid question that needs to be addressed. Thank you for raising it, as I feel like an idiot for not even thinking about it.
ISAC should be consulted about playing a part in this matter before we automatically assume they are willing and assign them a role.
-
At this point I should send my testimony to ISAC then? I am confused now. I should wait until you speak to them TENGU?
I have major medical issues and this sort of thing (writing a coherent account of my expereince) is actually very hard for me to do--and this will be the first time for me.
-
At this point I should send my testimony to ISAC then? I am confused now. I should wait until you speak to them TENGU?
No, go ahead and send it on in to ISAC. They can always use more victim statements, regardless of whether they want a part in this matter; I can get in touch with them tomorrow (I'm dead beat tonight) and address the issue of providing said statements to the FBI/DoJ upon request (should those investigative agencies ever request it). I greatly appreciate your courage in being willing to tell your story.
Please accept my apologies for causing confusion on this issue; I was in a rush as I was already late for an appointment but felt I needed to address the issue ASAP.
-
Cool, it wouldn't hurt to call them and ask if they mind acting as a conduit between survivors and law enforcement. I can think of good reason for them to say no as well as good reasons for them saying yes.
If they do say no then I suggest that you, tengu, take on the role of passing on the statements to the FBI directly. I know if I was in public service I'd be highly annoyed with my email or name being given out on a public forum. So far you have not shown the inclination to name any names or give out any .gov email addresses.
Please don't...
Some of the problems with the GAO investigation stemmed from early disclosure of the investigation. I'm highly certain that CAFETY had absolutey no intention or idea that releasing the information of an investigation would kick off the troll fest that it did. However, the unfortunate consequence, was that is exactly what happened.
So please.. don't be posting email addresses, phone numbers, or names unless those involved consent to it ahead of time.
-
ISAC has agreed to serve as a conduit between law enforcement and survivors. From here on, send all statements to ISAC.
I apologize for not getting this fact posted sooner; I fell tremendously ill and was not able to use a computer until today.
-
Sorry you were so sick! What was wrong? But its good news your feeling better - and good news about ISAC too :)
-
Two thumbs up mate! Lay off the piss and you won't feel so sick.
-
Sorry you were so sick! What was wrong? But its good news your feeling better - and good news about ISAC too :)
We all agree, more people in the world like Adam are needed. :karma: :tup: :rose: :nods: :notworthy: :-* :-*