Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => News Items => Topic started by: Anonymous on March 24, 2009, 10:09:51 AM
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http://parents-of-a-troubled-teen.blogspot.com/ (http://parents-of-a-troubled-teen.blogspot.com/)
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::OMG:: ::puke::
Wow...that is really, really sad.
It has been a little less than four years since the troubles really began with Katie. Therapy, three inpatient trips to local hospital teen programs, the summer with her mother, and then moving her to the school. Ups and downs there, but most of it being her resistance to the program - she is nothing if not stubborn.
Diane and I were given a great gift in the adult seminars, graduating Discovery, Focus, and the Keys to Success to become Keyholders, though because the actual 'keys' are now given out only at PC IV we will never receive ours. Giving her brothers the opportunity to go to Discovery, and Focus for the younger ones (coming up next month at the Youth Leadership Camp they will be attending) will, I hope, help them as they get older. Ugh, I think I'm gonna be sick. They put the younger siblings through shit like Discovery? Assholes.
I do believe that Katie would have only have gotten in more trouble had we not sent her to the program. I do fear that she would have gotten pregnant, and probably gotten into drugs, as well as much more alcohol. And she could have ended up dead. Jeeez, this kid wasn't even doing drugs.
Have we stopped that? I dunno. Postponed it definitely. We have tried to give her tools to live her life, and she has fought us on that. She will not graduate the program, but that is her choice. She will have spent exactly 34 months there when I pick her up - not the longest stay by any means, but way past any 'average', if that existed.
I hope that someone has been able to benefit from my ramblings here. I have tried to be open and honest about what we are going through - just for other parents who might be going through the same thing. I plan to continue to update this, though I don't know the frequency (and eventually she will be on her own, one way or another, and there will be nothing left on my part but the worrying).
So thanks to anyone who has joined us for this journey, and it continues on.
Posted by puggimer at 10:04 AM 1 comments Links to this post
Wednesday, June 18, 2008
Firming up plans
I bought the airline tickets yesterday to go pick up Katie. While not the appropriate blog for it, I am amazed at how some airlines price things - wanting to charge more for a one-way ticket than for a roundtrip!
Anyway, I fly out on July 22nd and back with her on the 23rd. Our flight out of Las Vegas is at 3, and it is a two hour drive (plus time change in our favor), so we will have to be out of there no later than noon, preferably by 11:00 am. Since I get in early enough to actually get some sleep (I get into Vegas a little afte 2 on Tuesday, putting me in Utah easily by 6 (as opposed to getting in at 12:30 am as one flight had it - putting me in Utah just in time for dawn!)) then I can be at the school first thing - I'm not sure how long it will take. So the countdown begins. 15 days until she turns 18, 35 days until she is home.
One thing we have to do is get them an exit plan for when she turns 18 - if she decides to just up an leave. We don't want to tell her we are picking her up - but I really don't want to end up having to get last minute bus tickets a week before the flight, and waste the airline tickets.
We have to get her room ready - her older brother is in it for the summer, and we need to clean his stuff out and make room for her. He moves into an apartment in August, so will have about three weeks of bunking with his younger brother.
This is going to take some adjustment. She hasn't lived at home since she left in May of 2005 - she will have been gone (except for one week) for 38 months, 34 of them in the program). A cost of roughly $150K. And that doesn't include any of the travel or seminar costs for Diane and I. A big part of me wonders if it was worth it. Is worth it - I'll be paying on the student loans for the next 30 years - which is basically the rest of my life. But I guess the real question is what would have happened if we hadn't done this? Your daughter would have grown up, like most kids.
Posted by puggimer at 7:11 AM 0 comments Links to this post
Monday, June 02, 2008
Change in plans / expectations
After our call with 'S' last week, Diane and I have talked a bit. It really looks like that we won't be doing PC III in June, and I'm feeling now that even if she were to make level 4 I don't want her special case'd in. I think that she has gotten all she is going to get out of the school. One more month won't make any difference, except for costing us money we truly don't have.
So we are going to talk to 'B' on Thursday as normal, but our plans have changed. Katie turns 18 a month from tomorrow. We are paid up through July 22nd - but we are probably going to go get her the weekend before that. I just don't see where spending another 4200 bucks for another month will make any difference - and we can use that to instead actually play for the tickets out there to get her, as well as get her a new wardrobe (she has lost 30 lbs, and it has been three years since she was home, so when we cleaned out her room we basically didn't keep ANY of her old clothes (or much of anything else)).
I'm a bit bothered that Diane and I will never receive our Keys as Keyholders since they have now moved that to PC IV, but there is absolutely nothing I can do about that either.
We talked with one of our keys family members this weekend whose son graduated from another school, and that helped a bit as well. So it looks like probably 7 weeks to go. Of course that assumes she doesn't decide to walk out on her birthday, but I don't see that happening. If she does, it will be a bus ticket home for her, but otherwise pretty much the same plan.
We are going to work up a contract, and will make it clear that she can either follow our rules or live somewhere else. There will be some simple no-tolerance points (such as violence, cutting, etc), but it is the little ones that are more difficult that we need to work on the next few weeks.
Posted by puggimer at 7:21 AM 0 comments Links to this post
Friday, May 23, 2008
It doesn't seem to be getting any easier
I've been very frustrated lately. Katie is still not working like she should, and it has been 32 months as of today. She, of course, doesn't know that she only has three months left there before all our money is gone.
Right now it really looks like we will be going to PC III in June, though she won't have fully earned it. To fully earn it she has to be level 5 by next week, and she is still at 3. However when we talked with 'B' last night before she was on the call he said that it would probably be much better for us to do it in June instead of August, as if we did it in August then we would bring her home immediately afterward, which would not be good.
I haven't been writing much ( and haven't gotten many letters either), and again she called me on that. I'm bothered, both by the fact that I am not wanting to write much, and by the idea of her calling me on this, when she has been sitting there for so long.
At one point she asked about my expectations, and I said that I gave up any expectations long ago - letting this be her program. It came through that any expectations had been missed quite some time ago though. She is getting real concerned about turning 18, and asked what our plans were. In response I simply asked if I had every said anything to her other than that she has to graduate, and she said no.
I'm a bit concerned about her coming home, but it is still three months off, and I haven't really worked it up in my head yet. Her older brother moves into his first apartment the weekend before that.
To top things off, it appears that AirTran has stopped their non-stop flights between Dayton and Vegas - which is a real bummer, because that means the airline tickets we are going to need for that this summer may be twice as much as we were expecting - could be close to a thousand for a pair - OUCH!!!
Posted by puggimer at 2:14 PM 0 comments Links to this post
Thursday, May 08, 2008
Another heavy sigh
We had our call with Katie and B again tonight, and unfortunately it wasn't a good or happy one. She is once again not working, and once again falling into the same old patterns. It gets very frustrating dealing with the same thing over and over again.
The irony is that it isn't big things, but her responses to them. She now claims to be writing a novel - which is an excuse to not be working. She tried to manipulate several people today in order to check out a book from the library, after she had already gone for the day. Dumb, stupid little things. And then denying she did them.
*sigh*
Posted by puggimer at 7:28 PM 0 comments Links to this post
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Katie had taken level 2 on Monday, without support. She is allowed to do that, but he wanted to give her a bit of a reality check. She thought she met all but one of the requirements. He went around the group, and had each girl list the requirements, if they supported her on it, and if not, why not. Pretty rude awakening for her - as there there 3 of the 11 requirements that she had no support at all - none of the 16 girls. A couple she had full support of, a few that were a bit mixed, and the rest were generally not supported. Then we left immediately after group, but not before giving the girls a lot of hugs - most of them wanted 'mom' hugs from Diane - basically having her stand in as a surrogate for their own mothers. :-
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I think my favourite is the part where Katie comes home, and the parents discover that 34 months in Cross Creek Manor didn't make their child more socially mature-- just the opposite.
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This is great. It is interesting getting a parents perspective. It is more stressful on the family than I had originally thought.
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I've heard the advise before, and given it myself many times, but so often we forget this in the middle of a crisis, or when we are overwhelmed. Just Breathe. In and Out. A couple of deep breaths and everything becomes much clearer……..
I finally get my first letter from Katie. Very brief, but filled with a bunch of attempts to induce guilt. Lines like "I guess now you can have a happier time with your wife" - made me want to tear my heart out, and at the same time made me angry at the manipulation I felt behind it. It is also very frustrating that letters take a week to get here - this was dated 9/24 - the day after she arrived. It will be really hard to keep up any kind of corespondence with that big of gaps in it.
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If you took the time to read that blog, you are a loser who will forever be trapped within the constraints of your self imposed victimhood.
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If you took the time to read that blog, you are a loser who will forever be trapped within the constraints of your self imposed victimhood.
You should step back a bit and look at the larger picture. This is a family issue, not just Katies or the parents. You will never understand any of this until you let go of the need to take sides.
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I can't stomach reading too much of this garbage, but it looks like they indoctrinated her into Mormonism.
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CAN SOME OF US CONTACT THESE PARENTS PLEASE!!!!
PARTICULARLY A WWASP SURIVOR!!!!!!!!
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CAN SOME OF US CONTACT THESE PARENTS PLEASE!!!!
PARTICULARLY A WWASP SURIVOR!!!!!!!!
did anyone contact them? Or did people just bitch?
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well what exactly would we say?
the litersture is out there, at this point its hard for me to imagine a parent who would send their child to a private prison despite the fact that the girl doesnt do drugs, will be willing to listen to reason. I can try, but I can also promise that we will hear all the same excuses wev'e heard time and time again and they will just run back to the program which will make a concerted effort to discredit anything I say to them.
I actually didnt read this blog so anyone want to provide cliff notes?
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I actually didnt read this blog so anyone want to provide cliff notes?
I read it....typical teenager stuff...IMHO
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I actually didnt read this blog so anyone want to provide cliff notes?
I read it....typical teenager stuff...IMHO
It shows the parents point of view during the time a child is in a program. I find it interesting, I am still reading it.
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Katie is in Orange - basically orange colored scrubs to designate the lowest and most restrictive level. She is not allowed to talk to anyone else in orange, and must be with a buddy at all times. She scared her 'hope buddy' (another, higher level girl) by not responding at all (the older girl had this happen with another girl who had actually gone catatonic - so this really upset her), so Katie is on 'staff buddy' - meaning she has to have a staff member present with her at all times.
This didn't seem to set off any alarms.
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Katie is in Orange - basically orange colored scrubs to designate the lowest and most restrictive level. She is not allowed to talk to anyone else in orange, and must be with a buddy at all times. She scared her 'hope buddy' (another, higher level girl) by not responding at all (the older girl had this happen with another girl who had actually gone catatonic - so this really upset her), so Katie is on 'staff buddy' - meaning she has to have a staff member present with her at all times.
This didn't seem to set off any alarms.
Not sure I follow you. From reading I believe "all" the kids start at orange. They need to earn their way up, just like everything else in life. Seems like a good system. I havent read the whole thing yet so my comments are preliminary.
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Look at the next post (October1)
I finally get my first letter from Katie. Very brief, but filled with a bunch of attempts to induce guilt. Lines like "I guess now you can have a happier time with your wife".........
You can see that Katie is a big time manipulator and her "Buddy" didnt know this. That is why she was freaked out by her not responding. The parents are use to this behavior from Katie. That is also why they probably were not fazed by it.
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Check this out also:
Finally had a chance to talk with her therapist. He seems like a real good guy. His first impression of Katie - "she is a trip". I think that is a clinical term :-). It does help a little bit to get some validation that hey, maybe we aren't crazy and she really can use this.
This shows also that the parents know Katies tactics all too well and is validated by her therapist.
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Look at the next post (October1)
I finally get my first letter from Katie. Very brief, but filled with a bunch of attempts to induce guilt. Lines like "I guess now you can have a happier time with your wife".........
You can see that Katie is a big time manipulator and her "Buddy" didnt know this. That is why she was freaked out by her not responding. The parents are use to this behavior from Katie. That is also why they probably were not fazed by it.
God you people are sick. And, child murderers, forcing someone to wear clothes meant to demonstrate their lowliness is degradation.
Anyone contact this sicko dad?
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God you people are sick. And, child murderers, forcing someone to wear clothes meant to demonstrate their lowliness is degradation.
Anyone contact this sicko dad?
You have got to be efing kidding me. Now we define the color orange as abusive? If they had them wear white you would be accusing them of being too religious. Maybe black would be too morbid and you would blame suicide attempts on the fact they are forced to wear black and think dark thoughts.
You read too far into everything. I dont think NASA tries to degrade their people just before a flight and force them to wear orange just to keep them in line and lower their self asteem.
NASA Crew (http://http://quest.nasa.gov/projects/spacewardbound/mojave2007/bios/sperling4.jpg)
Quit trolling this thread, guest.
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God you people are sick. And, child murderers, forcing someone to wear clothes meant to demonstrate their lowliness is degradation.
Anyone contact this sicko dad?
You have got to be efing kidding me. Now we define the color orange as abusive? If they had them wear white you would be accusing them of being too religious. Maybe black would be too morbid and you would blame suicide attempts on the fact they are forced to wear black and think dark thoughts.
You read too far into everything. I dont think NASA tries to degrade their people just before a flight and force them to wear orange just to keep them in line and lower their self asteem.
NASA Crew (http://http://quest.nasa.gov/projects/spacewardbound/mojave2007/bios/sperling4.jpg)
Quit trolling this thread, guest.
You peice of shit, the color orange isn't abusive, forcing a child to wear some sort of uniform of any color that is meant to indicate that they are lowly, "untrustworthy" manipulative or lesser than they should be is abusive.
But being evil and stupid you might not pick up on that.
What gulag you work for? I get a Carlbrook vibe from you.
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LOLs. The garb is orange as in "prison duds orange," and for the same reason: if they try to flee, they stand out like a fluorescent elephant in the surrounding landscape.
And yeah, there are all sorts of negative connotations and implications of powerlessness involved in the wearing of that color (while there), which is intentional. It's all part of the "break them down before ya build 'em back up" mentality, inherent to all of these programs.
Looks like Hooter or his clone is just trying to get your goat, Guest. This kind of obfuscation and sidetracking is right up his alley.
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No its not dickwad. Many places have uniforms to tell others what level they are. It isn’t abusive. Private high schools do it. Some colleges have freshmen wear (or use to wear) scarves or hats. Kids who are practicing to get their license have a big sign on their roof “Student driver”. Waitresses, waiters Etc.
The color makes it easier to identify which level each person is. Everyone probably had to start with orange so it isn’t shameful or anything (maybe just to you because you don’t understand it). Christ, you shallow piece of shit, we got kids and families struggling thru this crisis and you are trying to make an issue about the clothing they are given, cut me a friggin break this isn’t the prom.
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4/10
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Katie is in Orange - basically orange colored scrubs to designate the lowest and most restrictive level. She is not allowed to talk to anyone else in orange, and must be with a buddy at all times. She scared her 'hope buddy' (another, higher level girl) by not responding at all (the older girl had this happen with another girl who had actually gone catatonic - so this really upset her), so Katie is on 'staff buddy' - meaning she has to have a staff member present with her at all times.
This didn't seem to set off any alarms.
Not sure I follow you.
I'm not surprised.
From reading I believe "all" the kids start at orange.
It's not the orange...it's the catatonia dipshit.
They need to earn their way up, just like everything else in life. Seems like a good system. I havent read the whole thing yet so my comments are preliminary.
Oh gee. I can't wait for your next installment. ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
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Looks like TheWho must be bored again.
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It's not the orange...it's the catatonia dipshit.
Either way I don’t see that it should set off any alarms. The orange jumpsuit isn’t degrading, is comfortable and the color serves to let people be aware that the person wearing it is new or in their initial phase. As someone pointed out earlier the bright orange would assist in finding them if they happen to run away. So that is another reason for something bright in color. Sitting around in group or exercising it is better to have a jump suit than some tight jeans climbing up your butt all day.
As far as Katies “Hope Buddy” being scared because Katie was unresponsive. You have to understand that the hope buddy had just been thru a situation with another girl who had catatonia and so she would be hyper sensitive to anyone not responding in a very short time. The parents knew that Katie did not suffer from catatonia, but the “hope buddy” did not. So there is reason for her to be alarmed but no one else was alarmed by this.
You are looking for problems where none exist.
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What should have set off alarms is that there was a girl there that was catatonic IN THE FIRST FUCKING PLACE. Why was she catatonic? How long did they allow her to remain in that state without receiving medical or real psychological attention? What actions did the place take to have the girl seen by a medical doctor?
Jesus christ you people are some sick fucks.
Let's all remember that the original girl was sent to this place didn't even have a drug problem. Why do parents nowadays feel the need to outsource their job?
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What should have set off alarms is that there was a girl there that was catatonic IN THE FIRST FUCKING PLACE. Why was she catatonic? How long did they allow her to remain in that state without receiving medical or real psychological attention? What actions did the place take to have the girl seen by a medical doctor?
Jesus christ you people are some sick fucks.
Its a blog entry for christs sake. The parents (writing the blog) have no idea how long the kid was catatonic or if the child was ever diagnosed with Catatonia. Why would someone ask that? The school would not be allowed to give out that information to just anyone any way even if they did ask. Maybe it was the childs first episode and was not previously diagnosed with catatonia, maybe they received an award for being the fastest program to respond to kids in this situation, maybe a helicopter flew in to transport her to a special team of doctors and we will all see it on 20/20 someday. But all that aside I think we can safely say that she was better off having that epsisode there at the school (with a 24/7 buddy watching over her) then some back alley where her friends may freak out and leave her there alone.
Let's all remember that the original girl was sent to this place didn't even have a drug problem. Why do parents nowadays feel the need to outsource their job?
What, are you wacked, The girl that was catatonic may not have had a drug problem either. Why does everyone have to have a drug problem to need help? There are plenty of people with problems that never used drugs.
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This NeilW guy is hilarious.
Neil: "What, you're saying forcing a kid to wear orange scrubs intended demark she is subhuman is abusive? Crazy Talk!
There’s Nothing wrong with forcing a girl into orange scrubs [if she refuses the other adolescent-prisoner-guards will strip her nude and force the uniform onto her, along with other tortures] which enable the adolescent-prisoner-guards to immediately identify her as at the very subhuman “level”—the “level” at which she isn’t allowed to be without an adolescent-prisoner-guard, or speak to other girls at her “level”, and various other escape prevention, mind control and debasement oriented cruelties—and enforce the “rules” of that level.
There’s nothing wrong with forcing a child to wear a uniform meant to convey to her and others that she is subhuman and needs/deserves/must receive constant degradation!
There’s nothing wrong with forcing her to wear a uniform that mimics prisoner garb thus, should she escape, impress upon her potential helpers that she is some sort of deviant, like the striped uniforms forced onto victims of Auschwitz!
There’s nothing wrong with forcing her to wear dehumanizing, “uglyfying” garb meant to undermine her confidence her sense of self worth! The staff at CEDU called it 'breaking an image.' "
I’m guessing your sudden appearance, Neil, has something to do with convincing the particular child abuser-via-proxy who is responsible for this blog that he/you did nothing wrong to his daughter until the statute of limitations passes? Or are you merely one of the myriad of child torturers and parents who employ them who come to justify your warped desires and lifestyle. Whats your favarorite part of "reforming" kids NeilW, the part where you strip search them, or force them to bathe in front of you? Or maybe its destroying their potential and dreams,
those brats who think they're better than you?
What is your connection to the gulags exactly, Neil? You forgot to answer the question. OOPS!
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So yeah, hope some of you contacting this parent. I did, but did anyone else?
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What, are you wacked, The girl that was catatonic may not have had a drug problem either. Why does everyone have to have a drug problem to need help? There are plenty of people with problems that never used drugs.
Corrected:
I torture kids for money and/or because I'm a sadistic sociopath. I'm going to confuse the fact that this Katie wasn't catatonic when she arrived but ‘WENT’ catatonic after being tortured by WWASP (or is this place ASPEN?) like another detainee who ‘WENT’ catatonic under this particular adolescent prisoner guard I'm also going to overlook that an adolescent who is supposedly too mentally ill to be allowed to remain at large is being forced to guard Katie in exchange for the eligibility for release and for a lesser degree of constant torture.
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This NeilW guy is hilarious.
Neil: "What, you're saying forcing a kid to wear orange scrubs intended demark she is subhuman is abusive? Crazy Talk!
There’s Nothing wrong with forcing a girl into orange scrubs
We agree here? The color is not an issue. You changed your mind, read on.
[if she refuses the other adolescent-prisoner-guards will strip her nude and force the uniform onto her, along with other tortures] which enable the adolescent-prisoner-guards to immediately identify her as at the very subhuman “level”—the “level” at which she isn’t allowed to be without an adolescent-prisoner-guard, or speak to other girls at her “level”, and various other escape prevention, mind control and debasement oriented cruelties—and enforce the “rules” of that level.
You forgot cutting her arms and legs off and throwing her into a ditch. What does this have to do with the color of the suit?
There’s nothing wrong with forcing a child to wear a uniform meant to convey to her and others that she is subhuman and needs/deserves/must receive constant degradation!
That is something you are having trouble with, not Katie or her parents. NASA uses the same jump suits. Are we suppose to believe that NASA forces their astronauts to wear them so that they can lower their self esteem and be able to identify them as lowly and be able to track them better in case they try to run away just before launch time (T minus 7? LOL)
There’s nothing wrong with forcing her to wear a uniform that mimics prisoner garb thus, should she escape, impress upon her potential helpers that she is some sort of deviant, like the striped uniforms forced onto victims of Auschwitz!
How about if they chose to identify the new kids by having them to wear Mudd jeans and Holister tops, would this be worse than Auschwitz? Or maybe a little better. How about the one kid who throws a fit because they like the Goth look, would their self esteem be lowered? Would this be cruel? Maybe we could just give them all gift cards and let them go to the mall.
There’s nothing wrong with forcing her to wear dehumanizing, “uglyfying” garb meant to undermine her confidence her sense of self worth! The staff at CEDU called it 'breaking an image.' "
My God, you really hate orange don’t you. Have you ever considered that you are the only one with this problem? Is all of NASA in therapy over this? Do we force our astronauts to wear them as a reminder that we are losing the space race to China?
Maybe you do have a point!
I’m guessing your sudden appearance, Neil, has something to do with convincing the particular child abuser-via-proxy who is responsible for this blog that he/you did nothing wrong to his daughter until the statute of limitations passes? Or are you merely one of the myriad of child torturers and parents who employ them who come to justify your warped desires and lifestyle. Whats your favarorite part of "reforming" kids NeilW, the part where you strip search them, or force them to bathe in front of you? Or maybe its destroying their potential and dreams,
those brats who think they're better than you?
Dont go to Vegas, you are a terrible guesser.
What is your connection to the gulags exactly, Neil? You forgot to answer the question. OOPS!
I did not forget.
Get over it already. So you have gotten to the point where you have to resort to the color of the kids clothes to find something abusive about the programs. How about if they paint all the kids rooms White, with black curtains! Is that abusive?
"In the white room with black curtains near the station.
Blackroof country, no gold pavements, tired starlings.
Silver horses ran down moonbeams in your dark eyes.
Dawnlight smiles on you leaving, my contentment.
....... Shes just dressing, goodbye windows, tired starlings."
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There’s nothing wrong with forcing a child to wear a uniform meant to convey to her and others that she is subhuman and needs/deserves/must receive constant degradation!
That is something you are having trouble with, not Katie or her parents. NASA uses the same jump suits. Are we suppose to believe that NASA forces their astronauts to wear them so that they can lower their self esteem and be able to identify them as lowly and be able to track them better in case they try to run away just before launch time (T minus 7? LOL)
NeilW, uniforms are used for different of purposes depending on the institution, right? Prisons, gulags and Auschwitz use uniforms for different purposes than NASA, right?
What are the differences between the purposes of the uniforms at Auschwitz and the purposes of the uniforms at NASA? Think these differences up, and write them down
Now, is NASA an organization devoted to holding people prisoner without due process on the rationale that they're bad i.e. "manipulative," "entitled," "disobedient"?
What sort of organizations do that, Neil? What? Did you say gulags. Auschwitz, prisons? Wow, You’re right, NeilW!
Since that is what WWASP does wouldn't the purpose of THEIR uniforms be in line with the purposes of the uniform of a gulag, Auschwitz and prisons, and not NASA?
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Also, do you think when a civilian sees a haggard, distraught teenager in an orange jump suit they are more likely to think that the kid is an astronaut, or some kind of runaway prisoner?
How will that manipulate their response to an escaped child begging for help? Is an orange jumpsuit more associated with prisoner garb or astronauts, whose uniforms come in a va of colors? http://www.thespacestore.com/nasadfligsui.html (http://www.thespacestore.com/nasadfligsui.html)
How will being forced to dress identically to a convicted prisoner under the justification tehy are bad affect a young adult's self concept?
And Still refusing to answer what your connection to these guags is, you child torturing bitch? Child torturer and a coward--nice combo
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Neil: "What, you're saying forcing a kid to wear orange scrubs intended demark she is subhuman is abusive? Crazy Talk!
There’s Nothing wrong with forcing a girl into orange scrubs
We agree here? The color is not an issue. You changed your mind, read on.
[if she refuses the other adolescent-prisoner-guards will strip her nude and force the uniform onto her, along with other tortures] which enable the adolescent-prisoner-guards to immediately identify her as at the very subhuman “level”—the “level” at which she isn’t allowed to be without an adolescent-prisoner-guard, or speak to other girls at her “level”, and various other escape prevention, mind control and debasement oriented cruelties—and enforce the “rules” of that level.
You forgot cutting her arms and legs off and throwing her into a ditch. What does this have to do with the color of the suit?
Are you implying WWASP doesn't force its prisoners to torture other prisoners in return for eligibility for release and in exchange for enduring a lesser degree of torture? How do you think WWASP got Katie's adolescent guard to watch her and that other detainee who "went" catatonic? How do they manage to keep Katie from leaving, orange suit or no?
http://nospank.net/complaint2tc.pdf (http://nospank.net/complaint2tc.pdf)
http://www.caica.org/NEWS%20BBA%20Main.htm (http://www.caica.org/NEWS%20BBA%20Main.htm)
“16. Cadets at Bethel Boys Academy[wwasp gulag] are forced to guard, harass, mock, assault, and physically injure other cadets on command. They are not given a meaningful choice concerning whether to commit such acts against other cadets. They are forced to commit violent crimes against other cadets as a matter of survival. The choice is one between doing the beating, or receiving the beating.”
There are documents like this, and survivor and staff testimony detailing this at each WWASP and ASPEN gulag.
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NeilW, uniforms are used for different of purposes depending on the institution, right? Prisons, gulags and Auschwitz use uniforms for different purposes than NASA, right?
What are the differences between the purposes of the uniforms at Auschwitz and the purposes of the uniforms at NASA? Think these differences up, and write them down
So if the program wanted the kids to feel like lowly prisoners in gulags they would put them in chains and make them wear stripes. But they don’t.
Now, is NASA an organization devoted to holding people prisoner without due process on the rationale that they're bad i.e. "manipulative," "entitled," "disobedient"?
No they are not and either do programs. The kids are not prisoners. The places are more like NASA then any prison
Also, do you think when a civilian sees a haggard, distraught teenager in an orange jump suit they are more likely to think that the kid is an astronaut, or some kind of runaway prisoner
It makes them stand out. If the kids all wore blue pants and yellow shirts the locals would identify them just as easily if they ran away. Orange isn’t degrading as you think.
And Still refusing to answer what your connection to these guags is, you child torturing bitch? Child torturer and a coward--nice combo
So you feel everyone who works to help kids and find better ways to make their lives better is a torturer. You judge programs by the color of their clothes. Just because it didn’t work out for you doesn’t mean it doesn’t for others. Sorry you cant see beyond the colors
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I don't think this argument has anything to do with the color Orange at all... its the symbolism of that jumpsuit in general. When I was in a WWASP school the sweatsuit they gave me was blue, but no less humiliating than if they were orange. I stuck out like a sore thumb wearing blue sweatpants that were about 4 sizes too small and just about the most uncomfortable and ugliest looking sweatpants EVER! and of course they were hand me downs, I guess that $2000 a month couldn't afford me my own pair of sweatpants. Regardless of the color the same degradation existed, it goes without saying that I was treated differently but the difference is how I felt about myself. I really can't explain to you how embarrassing and nerve wracking it is to be attending a seminar (co ed, unlike the facility) wearing that ridiculous outfit, not to mention we couldn't shave our legs or pluck our eyebrows, put any product in our hair or cover up our acne. It was truly a mortifying experience, I felt so ugly, so un-kept, disgusting. Considering what I was forced to wear, I would have actually preferred that they just put me in an orange jumpsuit.
I think that the issue here is that these schools have their way of degrading the students in every possible way, weather that be physically or mentally... its really a miserable experience for the kid, I just don't understand how they can justify this treatment when only rarely does the ends justify the means.
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[NeilW, uniforms are used for different of purposes depending on the institution, right? Prisons, gulags and Auschwitz use uniforms for different purposes than NASA, right?
What are the differences between the purposes of the uniforms at Auschwitz and the purposes of the uniforms at NASA? Think these differences up, and write them down
So if the program wanted the kids to feel like lowly prisoners in gulags they would put them in chains and make them wear stripes. But they don’t."
Yes, they could make them wear stripes to degrade them. But since stripes were largely phased out of prisons ages ago and replaced with orange jumpsuits, forcing them to wear those orange jumpsuits is more effectively degrading and dehumanizing.
Phsycally forcing someone to wear any uniform that designates they're bad and must be subject to certain tortures, as are indicated in Dad's own blog: the constant precense of an adolescant guard, no speaking to other kids on "her level" the "lowest level," is degrading and abusive.
And lets not forget how that uniform got on her: she was physically forced to put that uniform on by other adolescent detainees or staff, or threatened with being physically forcefully stripped and re-clothed or with other torture.
Now, is NASA an organization devoted to holding people prisoner without due process on the rationale that they're bad i.e. "manipulative," "entitled," "disobedient"?
No they are not and either do programs. The kids are not prisoners. The places are more like NASA then any prison"?
Are you so absurd as to assert that WWASP and ASPEN does not hold kids prisoner without due process or habeas corpus?
http://74.125.93.104/search?q=cache:Q-P ... clnk&gl=us (http://74.125.93.104/search?q=cache:Q-Pw_7-HvXAJ:tbfight.com/index.php%3Fpage%3DThe-Case-Against-Tranquility-Bay-and-WWASPS+wwasp+private+prison&cd=8&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us)
Also, do you think when a civilian sees a haggard, distraught teenager in an orange jump suit they are more likely to think that the kid is an astronaut, or some kind of runaway prisoner
It makes them stand out. If the kids all wore blue pants and yellow shirts the locals would identify them just as easily if they ran away.
A kid who ran away wearing blue pants and yellow shirts would be assumed to be a poorly dressed kid. A kid in an orange jumpsuit would be assumed to be a runaway from some sort of official institution, most likely a prison.
http://www.witnesstorture.org/jumpsuit (http://www.witnesstorture.org/jumpsuit)
And Still refusing to answer what your connection to these guags is, you child torturing bitch? Child torturer and a coward--nice combo
So you feel everyone who works to help kids and find better ways to make their lives better is a torturer. You judge programs by the color of their clothes. Just because it didn’t work out for you doesn’t mean it doesn’t for others. Sorry you cant see beyond the colors
So which orgainization do you work for? let's see if your program stand up to scrutiny. Truth be told, you sound an awful lot like thewho, to me.
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Also, do you think when a civilian sees a haggard, distraught teenager in an orange jump suit they are more likely to think that the kid is an astronaut, or some kind of runaway prisoner?
Agreed, and this is of course the intention of the facility, not only to prevent successful runaways but also to psychologically imprison these kids. Make them feel hopeless, worthless and terrorize them to the point they wouldn't have the will to escape.
It's sad how this system is based on a philosophy that only intends to use fear and misery as force to comply to an abusive system. I'm actually surprised that it even works.... but I guess you can't underestimate the power of thought reform, regardless of the tactics used.
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I don't think this argument has anything to do with the color Orange at all... its the symbolism of that jumpsuit in general. When I was in a WWASP school the sweatsuit they gave me was blue, but no less humiliating than if they were orange. I stuck out like a sore thumb wearing blue sweatpants that were about 4 sizes too small and just about the most uncomfortable and ugliest looking sweatpants EVER! and of course they were hand me downs, I guess that $2000 a month couldn't afford me my own pair of sweatpants. Regardless of the color the same degradation existed, it goes without saying that I was treated differently but the difference is how I felt about myself. I really can't explain to you how embarrassing and nerve wracking it is to be attending a seminar (co ed, unlike the facility) wearing that ridiculous outfit, not to mention we couldn't shave our legs or pluck our eyebrows, put any product in our hair or cover up our acne. It was truly a mortifying experience, I felt so ugly, so un-kept, disgusting. Considering what I was forced to wear, I would have actually preferred that they just put me in an orange jumpsuit.
I think that the issue here is that these schools have their way of degrading the students in every possible way, weather that be physically or mentally... its really a miserable experience for the kid, I just don't understand how they can justify this treatment when only rarely does the ends justify the means.
The end never justifies the means. Organized degradation doesnt help people; it drives them insane This is indisputable medical fact. At WWASP were you strip searched, did you have to deal with constant forced public nudity: being "watched" by other kids deemed 'more reformed' while you went to the bathroom or forced to bathe publicly? Who performed the strip searches or the 'muscle' behind them? From what I've read, it's the other teen detainees forced into abusing others to save themselves abuse. That, by the way, is psychological torture and sexual abuse.
http://humanrights.ucdavis.edu/projects ... -for-a-day (http://humanrights.ucdavis.edu/projects/the-guantanamo-testimonials-project/testimonies/testimomies-of-lawyers/life-in-guantanamo-for-a-day)
"If a prisoner does something wrong in the guard’s point of view, he’s taken to a small room where his beard is shaved off.
Humiliations like these and others cause the men living in these conditions day after day and year after year eventually to become mentally ill, Remes claims. To show what Gitmo detainees go through during searches and how humiliating such treatment is, Remes then pulled down his pants, explaining that the guards search every part of a prisoner’s body – even their private parts. “You can’t imagine how humiliating this is [for them] unless you see it,” he explained as the reason for removing his own pants. He continued, “They punish them by taking them into a small room completely naked."
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Yes, they could make them wear stripes to degrade them. But since stripes were largely phased out of prisons ages ago and replaced with orange jumpsuits, forcing them to wear those orange jumpsuits is more effectively degrading and dehumanizing.
Phsycally forcing someone to wear any uniform that designates they're bad and must be subject to certain tortures, as are indicated in Dad's own blog: the constant precense of an adolescant guard, no speaking to other kids on "her level" the "lowest level," is degrading and abusive.
And lets not forget how that uniform got on her: she was physically forced to put that uniform on by other adolescent detainees or staff, or threatened with being physically forcefully stripped and re-clothed or with other torture..
Sorry, I just don’t buy it. Its a friggin jump suit which is color coded to show the person is new or on level one etc. All the kids went thru it, the others wouldnt judge her.
Are you so absurd as to assert that WWASP and ASPEN does not hold kids prisoner without due process or habeas corpus?
Look, Katie isn’t in prison. It’s a program. She is underage and under the care of her parents until she is 21 (18). She will get her freedoms then like everyone else.
A kid who ran away wearing blue pants and yellow shirts would be assumed to be a poorly dressed kid. A kid in an orange jumpsuit would be assumed to be a runaway from some sort of official institution, most likely a prison.
Yes, but the locals know what the kids wear and would spot them easy enough. But the orange suit would stand out more, I agree. But if the child is a flight risk then this would be beneficial and would assist in catching the child more quickly.
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Look, Katie isn’t in prison. It’s a program.
Aside from the word, what's the difference?
Oh... I see. There is due process for those sent to prison. They also have contact with the outside world an access to an attorney. I see. In prison they aren't trying day in and day out to break you down and strip you of your identity.
I know quite a few people who have been to Juvie and a program. Guess which one they say is worse, unanimously?
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But if the child is a flight risk then this would be beneficial and would assist in catching the child more quickly.
Flight risk? Let me ask you something. If you, without due process (meaning it could be because of who you dated or what your religious preference was), were grabbed in the middle of the night out of your bed, handcuffed, and taken away screaming to a facility where you can't even talk to your parents... Would you not try to escape?
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Are you so absurd as to assert that WWASP and ASPEN does not hold kids prisoner without due process or habeas corpus?
Look, Katie isn’t in prison. It’s a program. She is underage and under the care of her parents until she is 21 (18). She will get her freedoms then like everyone else.
.[/quote]
Oh, I see. You are not saying that WWASP and ASPEN do not hold young adults captive. You are saying holding a human being prisoner "doesn't count" when the human being is under 21.
Just curious, If you raped a 20 year olds after her parents asked you to, since it wouldnt be rape because she doesn't have her "freedoms," what do you call it?
Youre like a Nazi who thinks he really isn't "murdering" Jews because you can't muder a Jew anymore than you can "murder" bacteria. And you can't "imprison" a 20 year old anymore than you can imprison bacteria, right, Who?
http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/1219.htm (http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/1219.htm)
"When slaves begin to accept their role and identify with their master, constant physical bondage becomes unnecessary. They come to perceive their situation not as a deliberate action taken to harm them in particular but as part of the normal, if regrettable, scheme of things."
I guess that "masters" can come to see what they do as normal, too.
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Look, Katie isn’t in prison. It’s a program.
Aside from the word, what's the difference?
Oh... I see. There is due process for those sent to prison. They also have contact with the outside world an access to an attorney. I see. In prison they aren't trying day in and day out to break you down and strip you of your identity.
I know quite a few people who have been to Juvie and a program. Guess which one they say is worse, unanimously?
100% agree. You cant seriously think that the program is any better than jail... its not, its much much worse. despite what Psy mentioned that there is no due process and the systematic abuse is much much more prominent, at least in jail you are an adult who has already lived your life, mistakes and all. The teen years are so delicate, the years when the kid starts to realize who they are, separate from their parents and form the basis for the rest of their lives. Subjecting an impressionable teen to an extended period of duress is in no medical or moral sense acceptable. I dont understand how, even in the deepest pit of ignorance and denial, that these kinds of tactics are assumed to be any good for any reason to a human who is in such a delicate phase in their life.
I can understand that some teens need an intervention, and specifically because of these "impressionable years" but If I were running a center for adolescents I would not be providing the same program for a child with a "behavioral problem" as I would a child with a serious drug addiction. The problem is that adolescence has become demonized and criminalized and kids who are simply learning life lessons are being seen as having serious problems. I don't understand how a child who does not do drugs and does not have any significant mental problems should need any "help" especially when the basis of that "help" is considered punishment or so called "Tough Love".
I don't understand why tough love has to be the answer to adolescent behavior... There is no evidence to show that this method does any long term good. Sure, if you frighten a child into behaving they will but it wont help them with their decision making process when they are older. In fact evidence would suggest that instilling the obedient mind state in a child early on only leads them to be more susceptible to fall victim to peer pressure and abuse in the future. Why is it that in order to keep a kid off drugs you cant just separate them from their environment and educate them about the real world? Why do conditions have to be so harsh? What is the point of breaking someone down in order to "help" them to change? and what justifies abuse having any hand in this process? the answer is because these programs are not teaching these kids anything, they are simply beating them into submission to a doctrine that is immoral and unnatural. In most cases they are simply teaching children to be cruel to each other, and utilizing peer pressure to accept and inflict misery as "treatment". All aspects of this system are wrong, not just the jumpsuits, especially considering that they are just one of the thousands of ways that the program breaks you down to a miserable existence.
I know it takes a half way intelligent person to be able to link the tactics used in programs to the long term negative effects (consider doing some research on cptsd) but even the dumbest of the dumb are able to recognize that demoralizing a child is not a medically or morally accepted form of rehabilitation. In fact the only psychological basis that these methods can be traced back to is Thought Reform, which is recognized as a form of torture. There are other, healthy and progressive ways to encourage change in a teens life and until these programs denounce the "Tough Love" system I think its safe to assume they are just being abusive in the name of behavior modification (or more appropriately in the name of a paycheck). I don't understand why these parents aren't able to recognize that the mere existence of these draconian methods is only evidence of incompetence. Maybe if the programs hired professionals instead of basing their program model on the system's created by their now defunct cult-like predecessors, this wouldn't really be a problem now would it? but I must add that in a program that was centered on a helpful, healthy and professional environment, No one would be in jumpsuits, orange or otherwise.
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I just don't understand how they can justify this treatment when only rarely does the ends justify the means.
The end never justifies the means.
I actually didn't mean it like that, I was referring to the opinion of former clients, as in people rarely deem the experience worth the outcome.
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So if the program wanted the kids to feel like lowly prisoners in gulags they would put them in chains and make them wear stripes. But they don’t.
So what is the purpose?
No they are not and either do programs. The kids are not prisoners.
So then the kids are free to leave or to call a state agency at any time, right? Or in the alternative, they've received a diagnosis that states they are an immediate danger to themselves or others....because that's the criteria for committing someone.
So you feel everyone who works to help kids and find better ways to make their lives better is a torturer.
No, just the ones who use these treatment modalities. The ones who admit kids into their program without due process. The ones who use level systems, where the progress of inmates is controlled by other inmates as well as staff (who are quite frequently former inmates). The ones who feel confrontation breeds a breakthrough. The ones who won't allow children to speak to their parents unmonitored.
You judge programs by the color of their clothes. Just because it didn’t work out for you doesn’t mean it doesn’t for others. Sorry you cant see beyond the colors
It's not about the colors, but you know that.
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Oh, I see. You are not saying that WWASP and ASPEN do not hold young adults captive. You are saying holding a human being prisoner "doesn't count" when the human being is under 21.
It all counts. You need to experience it from the childs point of view. I drive past one of our local Gulags every day and look at all the little noses pressed against the fence. They are in there for various reasons, some have both parents who decided to pursue money rather than parenting, others come from a single parent back ground. Each one has a unique story. What they have in common is the wish that the fence could come down so that they could run free.
Another time at the Zoo, I experienced a group of high schoolers who were walking thru the Zoo and they were all forced to wear bright colored tee shirts. I could see how humiliated they must have been being stripped of their autonomy and being forced to be part of a group, with repeated brain washing of “Stay together for your own good”, “Check in with your assigned buddy”. I am sure they all attended Auswitchz academy and had very little self esteem left.
Just curious, If you raped a 20 year olds after her parents asked you to, since it wouldnt be rape because she doesn't have her "freedoms," what do you call it?
If you rape anyone it is a crime. It would also be a crime to walk over to “First steps academy” and open the gate to let all the toddlers run free into the world. If I walked over to the teenagers on their class trip and removed their tee shirts and gave them a chance to chose their own colors they would jump at the chance, but I am sure I would end up being arrested.
Youre like a Nazi who thinks he really isn't "murdering" Jews because you can't muder a Jew anymore than you can "murder" bacteria. And you can't "imprison" a 20 year old anymore than you can imprison bacteria, right, Who?
Wow, now I am the nazi!. You can murder Bacteria by using antibiotics. Some believe you can murder a baby by taking the morning after pill. So it is your choice of what you want to believe and how you define it for yourself. Pro choice or abortionist... which one sounds nicer.
"When slaves begin to accept their role and identify with their master, constant physical bondage becomes unnecessary. They come to perceive their situation not as a deliberate action taken to harm them in particular but as part of the normal, if regrettable, scheme of things."
I guess that "masters" can come to see what they do as normal, too.
Exactly right brother. That is why daycares have fences and middle schools do not because they kids are condition by years of internment and indoctrination not to run because the consequences are too high. If the kids resist this social norm then they need to be reprocessed and placed into programs until they comply or they age out of the system and be held accountable by their own actions within the judicial system.
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I know quite a few people who have been to Juvie and a program. Guess which one they say is worse, unanimously?
My son was in both...juvie (multiple times) and a program. He would go back to juvie instead of a program without a moments hesitation. He was detained for a short time at the adult jail here in LA County and said it was like looking thru the gates of hell.
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Actually that brings up a good point. If we could get this information out to the kids it may help to prevent some of them from being placed. If the kids feel having to follow the rules at home and go to school everyday is too tough and abusive they should experience the structure of a program for a few weeks, I am sure many of them would go back to school and straighten up. These kids don’t know how good they have it until it is too late.
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Actually that brings up a good point. If we could get this information out to the kids it may help to prevent some of them from being placed. If the kids feel having to follow the rules at home and go to school everyday is too tough and abusive they should experience the structure of a program for a few weeks, I am sure many of them would go back to school and straighten up. These kids don’t know how good they have it until it is too late.
This state of mind is exactly what makes parents (or program owners) like you the abusive kind. You think your teenager MUST follow the rules, must obey you at all times and must attain to every social norm... well sorry to break it to you but the teen years are exactly opposite of normal. You really believe that punishment will teach them some kind of lesson, but once you cross the line between consequences and abuse (ie a program) you have gone way to far just to try to keep your kid in line. I just don't understand why parents think they are allowed to fuck with their kids psyche... it just doesn't make sense.
I wish you people would just stop breeding.
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Actually that brings up a good point. If we could get this information out to the kids it may help to prevent some of them from being placed. If the kids feel having to follow the rules at home and go to school everyday is too tough and abusive they should experience the structure of a program for a few weeks, I am sure many of them would go back to school and straighten up. These kids don’t know how good they have it until it is too late.
This state of mind is exactly what makes parents (or program owners) like you the abusive kind. You think your teenager MUST follow the rules, must obey you at all times and must attain to every social norm... well sorry to break it to you but the teen years are exactly opposite of normal. You really believe that punishment will teach them some kind of lesson, but once you cross the line between consequences and abuse (ie a program) you have gone way to far just to try to keep your kid in line. I just don't understand why parents think they are allowed to fuck with their kids psyche... it just doesn't make sense.
I wish you people would just stop breeding.
So you would just let you kid not go to school and sit around all day at home? Would picking up the hypodermics off the floor so the toddlers dont play with them too strict or should we just all learn to step over them so Johnny doesnt get upset again when confronted with the rules.
I am sure your kids turned out well if you have any.
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Actually that brings up a good point. If we could get this information out to the kids it may help to prevent some of them from being placed. If the kids feel having to follow the rules at home and go to school everyday is too tough and abusive they should experience the structure of a program for a few weeks, I am sure many of them would go back to school and straighten up. These kids don’t know how good they have it until it is too late.
This state of mind is exactly what makes parents (or program owners) like you the abusive kind. You think your teenager MUST follow the rules, must obey you at all times and must attain to every social norm... well sorry to break it to you but the teen years are exactly opposite of normal. You really believe that punishment will teach them some kind of lesson, but once you cross the line between consequences and abuse (ie a program) you have gone way to far just to try to keep your kid in line. I just don't understand why parents think they are allowed to fuck with their kids psyche... it just doesn't make sense.
I wish you people would just stop breeding.
So you would just let you kid not go to school and sit around all day at home? Would picking up the hypodermics off the floor so the toddlers dont play with them too strict or should we just all learn to step over them so Johnny doesnt get upset again when confronted with the rules.
I am sure your kids turned out well if you have any.
No, actually my parenting style is much more involved, one that involves building trust and respect between you and your children and being more of a mentor than a punisher. You would really be surprised how well behaved a child will be when they are happy at home.
To tell you the truth I don't have kids, however I have been a Professional Nanny for 4 years and have taken more child development, child psychology and parenting classes than more than most parents I know. I have successfully raised 3 (2 of which would be considered struggling) teenagers who's main problems are that their parents are too self absorbed and self righteous to ever show them love or give them proper parenting. Perhaps if you were actually willing to listen I would be able to give you some parenting pointers but from the looks of it you already get yours straight from the program.
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No, actually my parenting style is much more involved, one that involves building trust and respect between you and your children and being more of a mentor than a punisher. You would really be surprised how well behaved a child will be when they are happy at home.
To tell you the truth I don't have kids, however I have been a Professional Nanny for 4 years and have taken more child development, child psychology and parenting classes than more than most parents I know. I have successfully raised 3 (2 of which would be considered struggling) teenagers who's main problems are that their parents are too self absorbed and self righteous to ever show them love or give them proper parenting. Perhaps if you were actually willing to listen I would be able to give you some parenting pointers but from the looks of it you already get yours straight from the program.
Nothing personal but Nannies are basically baby sitters on steroids. They are not (or should not be) a replacement for parents. Also, parents cannot adjust their parenting style to create a desired outcome. Each child is not a clean slate when they come into this world and each will react differently to identical external stimuli. So mutual respect and nurturing are both good things but not all kids will respond to them the same way. Hiring a Nanny is no replacement for parenting as well as a program is no suitable replacement either. But they are both necessary sometimes.
My parenting did not come from any of the programs. In fact most parents are not even introduced to programs until the parenting cycle is near completion and the child is in their teen years. The program may help the parents adjust a few things to help facilitate the childs transition back into the family, but that is about all I have seen.
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It all counts. You need to experience it from the childs point of view.
What makes you think we haven't? You obviously never have.
I drive past one of our local Gulags every day and look at all the little noses pressed against the fence. They are in there for various reasons, some have both parents who decided to pursue money rather than parenting, others come from a single parent back ground. Each one has a unique story. What they have in common is the wish that the fence could come down so that they could run free.
Those little ones out for recess get to go home with their families at the end of the day.
Another time at the Zoo, I experienced a group of high schoolers who were walking thru the Zoo and they were all forced to wear bright colored tee shirts. I could see how humiliated they must have been being stripped of their autonomy and being forced to be part of a group, with repeated brain washing of “Stay together for your own good”, “Check in with your assigned buddy”. I am sure they all attended Auswitchz academy and had very little self esteem left.
Mmm hmm....those are small children who could easily wander away and get lost, not intending to do so. That's very different from putting teens in orange prison garb so they're easier to spot if they try and run from a place that locks them down without due process, halts communication with family and the outside world and forces the kids into all kids of "confessions" so they can realize how "bad" they were.
If you rape anyone it is a crime.
So is forcibly locking someone away in an institution without due process.
"When slaves begin to accept their role and identify with their master, constant physical bondage becomes unnecessary. They come to perceive their situation not as a deliberate action taken to harm them in particular but as part of the normal, if regrettable, scheme of things."
I guess that "masters" can come to see what they do as normal, too.
Exactly right brother. That is why daycares have fences and middle schools do not because they kids are condition by years of internment and indoctrination not to run because the consequences are too high. If the kids resist this social norm then they need to be reprocessed and placed into programs until they comply or they age out of the system and be held accountable by their own actions within the judicial system.
So, you're advocating re-education camps? Do you not see a difference between a fence keeping a 3 year old from running into the street because they have no concept of what a car is and what an impact with one will do, and a facility for teens in the middle of nowhere, with zero communication between parent and child and no due process? Really? Wow, what color is the sky in your world?
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This state of mind is exactly what makes parents (or program owners) like you the abusive kind. You think your teenager MUST follow the rules, must obey you at all times and must attain to every social norm... well sorry to break it to you but the teen years are exactly opposite of normal. You really believe that punishment will teach them some kind of lesson, but once you cross the line between consequences and abuse (ie a program) you have gone way to far just to try to keep your kid in line. I just don't understand why parents think they are allowed to fuck with their kids psyche... it just doesn't make sense.
I wish you people would just stop breeding.
:notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy:
So you would just let you kid not go to school and sit around all day at home? Would picking up the hypodermics off the floor so the toddlers dont play with them too strict or should we just all learn to step over them so Johnny doesnt get upset again when confronted with the rules.
I am sure your kids turned out well if you have any.
No, and you know that's not what we're saying. What I"M saying is quit outsourcing your job as a parent to strangers who are no more qualified to dogsit than they are to "counsel" kids.
BTW.....Don't know about Fem having kids, but I agree exactly with what she said up there ^^ and I've got two grown kids who are doing just fine, despite me letting them develop ideas of their own and making sure they developed critical thinking skills. That's just it...these parents FREAK OUT when they discover that the kids actually DO have minds and thoughts of their own. Again, I refer you to the child in this parent's blog. She wasn't really doing anything dangerous or horrible. Typical teen stuff from what they posted. No drugs, no imminent danger yet she gets shipped off for YEARS. Un-fucking-believable.
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Mmm hmm....those are small children who could easily wander away and get lost, not intending to do so.
Exactly, the fence is meant to keep them in and keep them safe.
That's very different from putting teens in orange prison garb so they're easier to spot if they try and run
No its not. You cant have kids under age running around the town un supervised at all hours.
from a place that locks them down without due process, halts communication with family and the outside world and forces the kids into all kids of "confessions" so they can realize how "bad" they were.
The daycare kids were never asked if they would rather stay with their family or go to an institution during the day. I would guess the majority would rather be home with mom and dad. They have no communication with them and if something gets broken they need to find out who did it and be reminded how bad they are. Awful places!!
So is forcibly locking someone away in an institution without due process.
So at what age do the kids get to decide? Age 5, 9, 12, 15, 18 or 21?
So, you're advocating re-education camps? Do you not see a difference between a fence keeping a 3 year old from running into the street because they have no concept of what a car is and what an impact with one will do, and a facility for teens in the middle of nowhere, with zero communication between parent and child and no due process? Really? Wow, what color is the sky in your world?
There isn’t a difference. Different ages, different dangers The law is set up to keep kids out of danger until they are of age. Whether that be at age 5 or age 17. The law dictates the kids cannot be out on their own until they are of age.
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Mmm hmm....those are small children who could easily wander away and get lost, not intending to do so.
Exactly, the fence is meant to keep them in and keep them safe.
Again...there is a difference between keeping a child from running into the street and keeping a teenager locked in a facility for years at a time. It's truly sad that you can't acknowledge the difference. I think even most other pro-program parents would, but then again....you're not really hear to "discuss" anything are you?
The daycare kids were never asked if they would rather stay with their family or go to an institution during the day. I would guess the majority would rather be home with mom and dad.
The daycare kids were put there for the DAY while their parents work. The teens in lockdown facilities are there for thought reform and rehabilitation without ever really finding out if they indeed NEED rehabilitation. AGain, if you can't acknowledge the difference, then you're one ignorant, sick fuck.
So at what age do the kids get to decide? Age 5, 9, 12, 15, 18 or 21?
I never said anything about the kids deciding. How 'bout just a diagnosis that states that they are an IMMINENT danger to themselves or others, as that's the requirement for committment?
So, you're advocating re-education camps? Do you not see a difference between a fence keeping a 3 year old from running into the street because they have no concept of what a car is and what an impact with one will do, and a facility for teens in the middle of nowhere, with zero communication between parent and child and no due process? Really? Wow, what color is the sky in your world?
There isn’t a difference.
You're a sick fuck.
Different ages, different dangers The law is set up to keep kids out of danger until they are of age. Whether that be at age 5 or age 17. The law dictates the kids cannot be out on their own until they are of age.
The law also dictates that you can't forcibly commit someone without due process, but I guess you guys cherry pick the laws you want to follow.
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Look, STFU, we seem to disagree on various aspects of this and I respect you right to disagree. But this doesn’t make you right. In fact you are far from it. Kids need to be kept safe until they are able to fend for themselves. Programs don’t decide this the law does. If you get out and vote then you can lower the age to age 5 if you like. You probably were in a program yourself and never finished so you are unable to see the larger picture or the benefits and I am sorry you were hurt by the system if you were. The majority of the kids in programs have siblings at home who are doing fine do to great parenting skills. Program parents are parents that are engaged with their kids and want the best for them. They are not absentee parents like many want to believe. Their kids are the ones on the street corners or collecting welfare someplace. The problem lies with the child and sometimes the family dynamics. This is hard to swallow for you but it is the common denominator. The process of helping these kids may not be perfect but at least they are doing something to help. You don’t seem to be contributing much by just dumping anger.
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Hey TheWho.. *cough* *cough*, I mean "NeilW". how's it going? looks like you still got people running in circles.
thewho: JUMP!
fornits posters: how high?
:roflmao:
Priceless
I just hope TheWho can replicate his troll when Psy was 100% convinced he figured out his identity, letting people bid on his identity info, and then outing some random (the wrong) guy. That had to be one of the funniest fornits moments evar.
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The majority of the kids in programs have siblings at home who are doing fine do to great parenting skills. Program parents are parents that are engaged with their kids and want the best for them. They are not absentee parents like many want to believe... The problem lies with the child and sometimes the family dynamics. This is hard to swallow for you but it is the common denominator. The process of helping these kids may not be perfect but at least they are doing something to help...
These fine program-parenting skills didn't seem to help so much in your case, did they? What is it now... one down, one to go?
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I drive past one of our local Gulags every day and look at all the little noses pressed against the fence. They are in there for various reasons, some have both parents who decided to pursue money rather than parenting, others come from a single parent back ground. Each one has a unique story. What they have in common is the wish that the fence could come down so that they could run free.
lol. So, who, there is no difference between a middle school and abu garib?
International human rights lawyers and sane people beg to differ.
Heres some questions for ya, who:
If a middle school student tried to leave campus, would she be physically prevented from doing so by staff?
If a detainee at Abu Garib or chinese thought refrom prison tried to leave he would be physically prevented by staff?
At Abu Garib or at a chinese thought refrom prison are detainees left unchained, unlocked, or physcially prevented by gurads from unwanted movement?
At a middle school there is EVER time when a student is chained, locked, or under guard charged with physically preventing the student from unwanted movement?
When you answer those questions you will have written some differences between Abu Gharib and a chinese thought refrom prison and a middle school.
Since you cant tell the difference, I can see how it is hard for you to object to the torture of human beings under 21. You are a very confused fella.
Neil=WHO.
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AGAIN, how many of us contacted this parent. This who person is worthless. Contacting the parent makes more sense. They need to be introduced to the reality of what they did to their kid
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Look, NeilW, we seem to disagree on various aspects of this and I respect you right to disagree. But this doesn’t make you right. In fact you are far from it. Kids don't need to be kept away from their families for years on end. Programs don’t make kids safe. If you get out and vote then you can raise the age of majority to age 50 in order to maintain control of your child's life if you like. You probably have a couple of kids in a program yourself and it's dawning on you that you made a serious mistade so you are unable to see the larger picture or the dangers and I am sorry you can't stand the thought of your children growing into adults with thoughts and ideas of their own. The majority of the kids in programs are there with no real diagnosis or due process. Program parents are parents that are enraged with their kids. They are absentee parents who are outsourcing their parenting jobs to strangers. Their kids are the ones who are going to pay the ultimate price. The problem lies with the parents and the family dynamics. This is hard to swallow for you but it is the common denominator. The process of mindraping these kids may not be perfect but at least they are doing something. You don’t seem to be contributing much by just shilling for programs.
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Look, NeilW, we seem to disagree on various aspects of this and I respect you right to disagree. But this doesn’t make you right. In fact you are far from it. Kids don't need to be kept away from their families for years on end. Programs don’t make kids safe. If you get out and vote then you can raise the age of majority to age 50 in order to maintain control of your child's life if you like. You probably have a couple of kids in a program yourself and it's dawning on you that you made a serious mistade so you are unable to see the larger picture or the dangers and I am sorry you can't stand the thought of your children growing into adults with thoughts and ideas of their own. The majority of the kids in programs are there with no real diagnosis or due process. Program parents are parents that are enraged with their kids. They are absentee parents who are outsourcing their parenting jobs to strangers. Their kids are the ones who are going to pay the ultimate price. The problem lies with the parents and the family dynamics. This is hard to swallow for you but it is the common denominator. The process of mindraping these kids may not be perfect but at least they are doing something. You don’t seem to be contributing much by just shilling for programs.
Ping!! Sorry I upset you so much, STFU, I take it you understood my point. Your imitation is very flattering.
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Mmm hmm....those are small children who could easily wander away and get lost, not intending to do so.
Exactly, the fence is meant to keep them in and keep them safe.
Again...there is a difference between keeping a child from running into the street and keeping a teenager locked in a facility for years at a time. It's truly sad that you can't acknowledge the difference. I think even most other pro-program parents would, but then again....you're not really hear to "discuss" anything are you?.
Even the most abusive deluded staff, and guardians who finance their wards’ captivity comprehend the difference between gulag-“schools” or Abu Gharib and middle schools. Not Who.
I think that goes to his needing to justify, on an emotional level, his role in abduction and false imprisonment.
He handles his role in evil with an amazing level of cognitive dissonance akin to a Auschwitz guard's understanding that he wasn't really “murdering” people, he was just cleansing the world of Jews.
A lot of people suggest thewho is lon woodbury, which I don’t doubt. Same idiotic writing style and cultic and zealous irrationality.
So, you're advocating re-education camps? Do you not see a difference between a fence keeping a 3 year old from running into the street because they have no concept of what a car is and what an impact with one will do, and a facility for teens in the middle of nowhere, with zero communication between parent and child and no due process? Really? Wow, what color is the sky in your world?
There isn’t a difference.
You're a sick fuck.
totally
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I think that goes to his needing to justify, on an emotional level, his role in abduction and false imprisonment.
Truer words were never spoken.
He handles his role in evil with an amazing level of cognitive dissonance akin to a Auschwitz guard's understanding that he wasn't really “murdering” people, he was just cleansing the world of Jews.
I see your point, but in a way program parents are even more insidious. The nazis believed they were helping one group by destroying another. These freaks think they're helping the very group they're destroying. But yeah, I get your point. They're so dangerous because they actually believe their own bullshit. To even entertain the flip side is too much for them to handle. In a way I can understand that. If I had done to my kids what was done to me and thousands of others I'd have a hard time living wiht myself too.
A lot of people suggest thewho is lon woodbury, which I don’t doubt. Same idiotic writing style and cultic and zealous irrationality.
I have no idea if this guy is the same as who or not. don't care. they're all pretty interchangeable. I still find it worthwhile to dispute what they say sometimes. Even if it doesn't do anything for anyone else, it helps me understand how they think and how what happened to me happened.
[
You're a sick fuck.
totally
:tup:
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""Thursday, May 08, 2008
Another heavy sigh
We had our call with Katie and B again tonight, and unfortunately it wasn't a good or happy one. She is once again not working, and once again falling into the same old patterns. It gets very frustrating dealing with the same thing over and over again.
The irony is that it isn't big things, but her responses to them. She now claims to be writing a novel - which is an excuse to not be working. She tried to manipulate several people today in order to check out a book from the library, after she had already gone for the day. Dumb, stupid little things. And then denying she did them.
*sigh*"""
These parents are simply abusive monsters. Their response to their daughter writing a novel is not encouragement but annoyance at her 'not working'? Their response to their daughter supposedly lying in such an absurd way is not concern for her mental state, but *sigh* poor us contemptful displeasure?
These people are disgusting. I hope Katie finds fornits before her monster parents destroy her completely. I'm sure some poster here would even lend her a room to get her out of that destructive environment. Her parents don't deserve children. Monsters
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These parents are simply abusive monsters. Their response to their daughter writing a novel is not encouragement but annoyance at her 'not working'? Their response to their daughter supposedly lying in such an absurd way is not concern for her mental state, but *sigh* poor us contemptful displeasure?
These people are disgusting. I hope Katie finds fornits before her monster parents destroy her completely. I'm sure some poster here would even lend her a room to get her out of that destructive environment. Her parents don't deserve children. Monsters
Its clear you do not understand what is going on. You dont know Katie but her parents do. If you had ever parented a child you would know that consistency, rules and structure are all very important. Katie is going to be in the program for some time, another day without the book isn’t a big deal. She left for the day and is trying to manipulate people and test the rules to see what she can get away with and she is going to find out that she cant do that there or in the real world when she gets older. It is a good lesson for her.
Reading peoples responses to this blog helps to clear up why many here view programs and program parents so harshly. Interesting how you view the parents and programs as evil and view Katie as the victim when she is the one trying to pull the strings and being dishonest.
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It's pretty obvious when people are being sarcastic and masquerading as something they're not, guest. People tend to hate in others what they see in themselves. hmm...
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These parents are simply abusive monsters. Their response to their daughter writing a novel is not encouragement but annoyance at her 'not working'? Their response to their daughter supposedly lying in such an absurd way is not concern for her mental state, but *sigh* poor us contemptful displeasure?
These people are disgusting. I hope Katie finds fornits before her monster parents destroy her completely. I'm sure some poster here would even lend her a room to get her out of that destructive environment. Her parents don't deserve children. Monsters
Interesting how you view the parents and programs as evil and view Katie as the victim when she is the one trying to pull the strings and being dishonest.
Yes, these parents are evil.
They funded Kaitie's imprisonment and torture in a wwasp or aspen gulag for 3 YEARS, solely because they are abusive monsters[nothing makes locking a kid in WWASP or ASPEN alright but at some circumstances semi-excuse a parent's confusion, ignorance and cruelty: parents are mentally ill, not computer literate, kid is a genuine heroin addict..and not driven to that state through abuse by parents), they are obviously computer literate, the info about wwasp and ASPEN is available to them, and knowing what they did to their child they are still abusing her, still punishing and finding fault over petty concerns instead of loving and accepting and helping her.
Yes. They ARE evil. yes Katie IS a victim. Just like your kid, who.
Will someone subpoena their IP and contact Katie somehow? Their blog is proof of abuse and various crimes. God, if only activists had $.
btw, is "discovery" a wwasp lgat or aspen? I don’t know.
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These parents are simply abusive monsters. Their response to their daughter writing a novel is not encouragement but annoyance at her 'not working'? Their response to their daughter supposedly lying in such an absurd way is not concern for her mental state, but *sigh* poor us contemptful displeasure?
These people are disgusting. I hope Katie finds fornits before her monster parents destroy her completely. I'm sure some poster here would even lend her a room to get her out of that destructive environment. Her parents don't deserve children. Monsters
Interesting how you view the parents and programs as evil and view Katie as the victim when she is the one trying to pull the strings and being dishonest.
Yes, these parents are evil.
They funded Kaitie's imprisonment and torture in a wwasp or aspen gulag for 3 YEARS, solely because they are abusive monsters[nothing makes locking a kid in WWASP or ASPEN alright but at some circumstances semi-excuse a parent's confusion, ignorance and cruelty: parents are mentally ill, not computer literate, kid is a genuine heroin addict..and not driven to that state through abuse by parents), they are obviously computer literate, the info about wwasp and ASPEN is available to them, and knowing what they did to their child they are still abusing her, still punishing and finding fault over petty concerns instead of loving and accepting and helping her.
Yes. They ARE evil. yes Katie IS a victim. Just like your kid, who.
Will someone subpoena their IP and contact Katie somehow? Their blog is proof of abuse and various crimes. God, if only activists had $.
btw, is "discovery" a wwasp lgat or aspen? I don’t know.
So if Katie was a heroin addict then her parents would be sane and not evil abusive monsters. Its amazing how the actions of the child can make or break the parents. LOL
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These parents are simply abusive monsters. Their response to their daughter writing a novel is not encouragement but annoyance at her 'not working'? Their response to their daughter supposedly lying in such an absurd way is not concern for her mental state, but *sigh* poor us contemptful displeasure?
These people are disgusting. I hope Katie finds fornits before her monster parents destroy her completely. I'm sure some poster here would even lend her a room to get her out of that destructive environment. Her parents don't deserve children. Monsters
Its clear you do not understand what is going on. You dont know Katie but her parents do. If you had ever parented a child you would know that consistency, rules and structure are all very important. Katie is going to be in the program for some time, another day without the book isn’t a big deal. She left for the day and is trying to manipulate people and test the rules to see what she can get away with and she is going to find out that she cant do that there or in the real world when she gets older. It is a good lesson for her.
Reading peoples responses to this blog helps to clear up why many here view programs and program parents so harshly. Interesting how you view the parents and programs as evil and view Katie as the victim when she is the one trying to pull the strings and being dishonest.
Not to be rude, but I think you are both wrong.... in most ways seeing this from two extreme angles.
I honestly don't think that what was translated in that call is the truth, what it sounds like to be is the program lingo, and the way that normal things in the program are manipulated (almost for the sake of creating drama) into being some form of disobedience or manipulation. Think of it this way, if this Katie girl were in class in a high school and she was writing a novel on her own time (and yes even if it was to avoid dealing with her home life) and trying to check out an extra, (or possibly different) book at the library, this kind of action would be praised at home. However the program, and mainly the case manager needs something to "bring up" and use some excuse to call this girl out on her behavior, even if its nothing even close to real disobedience.
However I don't think these parents are evil or monsters, however I am shocked that these things aren't red flags and that they are willing to put unquestioning faith into this program when their methods are so obviously unorthodox. Do they really see their teen as such a deviant?... whatever happened to the maternal instinct? shouldn't these parents reserve a question in their minds about how this is all playing out, if not to protect their child at least to keep a close eye on their investment? It seems to me the program is just feeding them this warped perception of their daughter, and since its drama that feeds into their fears they just buy it without any consideration. I just don't understand how two grown adults can be so easily convinced, especially when using common sense these things are unrealistic. I'll say it again, it just doesn't make sense.
To be honest this situation is all to familiar. Although I never got to speak with my mother on the phone, in the program it was my case manager who made it the hardest for me. She was trained to report on the way the program made things look and not the way they actually were. This woman spent all of an hour with us a day (as a group) yet she for some reason had the authority to talk to my mom every week and tell her how I was such a disobedient kid because I was still getting consequences. What that woman didn't even care to find out was that I have medical problems that caused me to unintentionally break those "rules" (that were actually not rules at all, just the way they controlled us). I can remember feeling so frustrated, (in fact thinking about it now I feel a knot in my throat), because no matter what I did or how hard I tried the program always found ways to make it impossible for me, and make me out to be some deviant that I never was. I don't know if that is entirely the case here, but knowing the way the system works at these places I would put my money on the fact that the case manager is over-dramatizing the situation in order to make it seem like shes doing her job. I think its more evidence of that fact that Katie felt strongly enough to dispute the matter, because if she was in the wrong she wouldn't risk punishment to "manipulate". She's probably crying out to her parents for help, but they are too blinded (successfully manipulated) by the case manager (and maybe the seminars?) to truly see how their daughter's life at the program really is.
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These parents are simply abusive monsters. Their response to their daughter writing a novel is not encouragement but annoyance at her 'not working'? Their response to their daughter supposedly lying in such an absurd way is not concern for her mental state, but *sigh* poor us contemptful displeasure?
These people are disgusting. I hope Katie finds fornits before her monster parents destroy her completely. I'm sure some poster here would even lend her a room to get her out of that destructive environment. Her parents don't deserve children. Monsters
Interesting how you view the parents and programs as evil and view Katie as the victim when she is the one trying to pull the strings and being dishonest.
Yes, these parents are evil.
They funded Kaitie's imprisonment and torture in a wwasp or aspen gulag for 3 YEARS, solely because they are abusive monsters[nothing makes locking a kid in WWASP or ASPEN alright but at some circumstances semi-excuse a parent's confusion, ignorance and cruelty: parents are mentally ill, not computer literate, kid is a genuine heroin addict..and not driven to that state through abuse by parents), they are obviously computer literate, the info about wwasp and ASPEN is available to them, and knowing what they did to their child they are still abusing her, still punishing and finding fault over petty concerns instead of loving and accepting and helping her.
Yes. They ARE evil. yes Katie IS a victim. Just like your kid, who.
Will someone subpoena their IP and contact Katie somehow? Their blog is proof of abuse and various crimes. God, if only activists had $.
btw, is "discovery" a wwasp lgat or aspen? I don’t know.
So if Katie was a heroin addict then her parents would be sane and not evil abusive monsters. Its amazing how the actions of the child can make or break the parents. LOL
Nice work around but no, If Katie were a genuine heroin addict, a WWASP school would really be that last place that an addict would find proper care therefore the parents would then be liable for charges of maltreatment. You fail to realize that these programs are not for ANY teens no matter what problem they may have. The methods are not medically sound, they cause physical and psychological trauma and the staff who work there are unqualified, therefore the only standing authority is the program, which as we can tell from the blogs is completely warped. and not sure if your aware of this, but what they do at these programs is NOT treatment.
HOWEVER we have already established that Katie is not on drugs, and in that sense, yes the child's lack of bad behavior makes these parents decision all the more heinous.
BTW yes Discovery is a WWASP LGAT seminar. I just want to ask how far into this blog are you guest, and im confused as to if this family has already passed through the program or if they are in the process.
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They seem to have her home..but are kind of enacting WWASP at home?
Just follow the link at the start of this sting
Back up to level 3
Well, things are going, if not as well as I'd like, they are at least going. Katie is back up to level three as of yesterday. She is still smoking unfortunately, but there isn't much I can do there.
Katie is starting to learn some of the harsh realities of economics in the real world. With her job, she needed bank accounts. Yep, she already bounced some. First she ordered some CD's online (at Amazon) and had it come from her savings - the first mistake. Then she didn't have enough to cover it, so had to deal with the bank charges, and then the vendor charges as well. Of course she didn't have that kind of money - so now her allowance goes to me until it is taken care of. I said that I would help her this once, and have also started doing a check on her accounts to make sure she is actually writing EVERYTHING down in her register - or she earns a Cat 2.
It is very frustrating as a parent to watch your children insist on making the same stupid mistakes, and not listening when we tell them how to avoid them.
It must be very frustrating to have such a miserable life, bitch. Thank god you have Katie to take it out on! Waaa Waaa. My kid isnt absolutely perfect at all times. Shes so BAD! Maybe if you hadnt paid professional torturers to drive Katie insane for 3 years, handling money wouldnt be challenging for her. Yeah, she kind of missed picking up on those life skills on account 'a getin' tortured !
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....the child's lack of bad behavior makes these parents decision all the more heinous
I can see why the posters here feel the way they do. Katie is innocent in all of this! Why didnt someone mention this earlier? These kids are just randomly plucked out of society and sent to programs for no reason. All these kids are victims of a cruel random occurance.
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http://parents-of-a-troubled-teen.blogs ... stmas.html (http://parents-of-a-troubled-teen.blogspot.com/2008/12/merry-fricken-christmas.html)
Katie's apparently been removed after 3 YEARS at WWASP. I'd say Katie will be at high risk for suicide and death because of what was done to her over the next 5-10 years, possibly longer. She has a probability of having lost vital abilities and talents permanently.
No, femanon, these 'parents' are evil. Its time 'parents' are alloted respobsibility for their crimes
Not surprisingly one of these "parents" is a Katie's step mom. Katie’s step mom comments on how Katie is not really her daughter which is why she doesn’t go easy on her like her husband. Also, katie is soooo bad, she's checked out of the relationship.
Rot in hell 'Diane,' child abuser. Mike, youre a sick child torturing freak for what you did to your kid.
"Merry Fricken Christmas
this is Diane. [The evil step-mother]
As Mike [the abusive dad] has noticed I have "checked out" regarding Katie's and my relationship. I really tried to make it work when she got home, and there were some nice moments, but sadly that's all they were, moments. [/color]
. Christmas day was fine until around dinner when she reverted back to screaming about things and making everyone miserable. Even Scout has gone back to hiding again when she starts her fits.
The lies have returned and its almost like she wasn't gone for three years, and has not retained anything that they tried to teach her there. The "real" reason she quit Frisches came out when she was talking to one of Erik's friends yesterday. She was sitting on the couch talking like no one else was around when Mike and I were just steps away. Though she exclaimed to us the "real" reason she quit her job was because her grades were being affected, we all knew that was a lie.
I even went so far as to talk with her manager to make sure she wasn't fired. No, she quit. No two week notice and at the beginning of Christmas break when she could have been pulling in the dough. Just another of her extremely bad choices in life. It seems that she thrives on negativity. Oh, and if you're wondering, the "real" reason was because she didn't like some girl there. Big fricken deal. Put your big girl panties on and deal with it. You will go through life and every job you have there will be someone that rubs you the wrong way.
Today we had our big family meeting before Mike left. We didn't have one when he wasn't here because he is the calming person in it all. It can very quickly break down to a screaming match -- with Katie doing the screaming and then she storms off and cries in her bedroom, playing the victim and drama queen to the hilt.
When it was Katies turn she came out and asked "of the two family leaders sitting here" [she's calling her parents family leaders, like at wwasp] why she hadn't been kicked out yet! I asked her if that was her goal because she truly has been acting like it. She has been making sure to push every button she can to see if we will. And I guess if it were just my decision -- which I'm very glad it's not -- she would be out of here. But luckily Mike has the solid, calm head in the family. Plus it's HIS daughter, it's not my blood daughter and I would maybe feel differently if she was.
I spend my days longer at work, or up in my room again just to make sure there is no fight or confrontation. But then since I'm not around she'll start picking a fight with the boys and they end up coming to me to try to knock sense into her. We've all had it.
When she was having a screaming fit at Jon the other night (it was amazing how calm Jon was through the whole thing!) ... she knows everything, rules don't pertain to her. I truly feel she'll have to hit ALL the bumps in the road that life will bring before she learns anything.
Sad but true.
Hope I make it through the next few days until Mike gets back here. Lord, give me strength.
-D "
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Katie is starting to learn some of the harsh realities of economics in the real world. With her job, she needed bank accounts. Yep, she already bounced some. First she ordered some CD's online (at Amazon) and had it come from her savings - the first mistake. Then she didn't have enough to cover it, so had to deal with the bank charges, and then the vendor charges as well. Of course she didn't have that kind of money - so now her allowance goes to me until it is taken care of. I said that I would help her this once, and have also started doing a check on her accounts to make sure she is actually writing EVERYTHING down in her register - or she earns a Cat 2.
It is very frustrating as a parent to watch your children insist on making the same stupid mistakes, and not listening when we tell them how to avoid them.
Some kids run up hundreds of dollars before their parents find out. Its good Katies parents are keeping tabs so she doesn’t get herself too far in debt.
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....the child's lack of bad behavior makes these parents decision all the more heinous
I can see why the posters here feel the way they do. Katie is innocent in all of this! Why didnt someone mention this earlier? These kids are just randomly plucked out of society and sent to programs for no reason. All these kids are victims of a cruel random occurance.
That’s right, like Jews during the holocaust, or blacks during America’s slave era, they are more of history’s innocent victims butchered and martyred in a cruel convergence of inadequate and abusive parents and an unresponsive and corrupt state.
During the Greco-Roman period, children could be sold into slavery if they displeased their father. We have not progressed as a species from that point.
Who, you are child murderer. Not so long from now I will see you and your ilk hanging from gallows.
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Katie is starting to learn some of the harsh realities of economics in the real world. With her job, she needed bank accounts. Yep, she already bounced some. First she ordered some CD's online (at Amazon) and had it come from her savings - the first mistake. Then she didn't have enough to cover it, so had to deal with the bank charges, and then the vendor charges as well. Of course she didn't have that kind of money - so now her allowance goes to me until it is taken care of. I said that I would help her this once, and have also started doing a check on her accounts to make sure she is actually writing EVERYTHING down in her register - or she earns a Cat 2.
It is very frustrating as a parent to watch your children insist on making the same stupid mistakes, and not listening when we tell them how to avoid them.
Some kids run up hundreds of dollars before their parents find out. Its good Katies parents are keeping tabs so she doesn’t get herself too far in debt.
Yep, great they found out she was overspending, less great they never found out (or cared) she was being tortured into insanity.
You have an interesting set of priorities, who.
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....the child's lack of bad behavior makes these parents decision all the more heinous
I can see why the posters here feel the way they do. Katie is innocent in all of this! Why didnt someone mention this earlier? These kids are just randomly plucked out of society and sent to programs for no reason. All these kids are victims of a cruel random occurance.
That’s right, like Jews during the holocaust, or blacks during America’s slave era, they are more of history’s innocent victims butchered and martyred in a cruel convergence of inadequate and abusive parents and an unresponsive and corrupt state.
During the Greco-Roman period, children could be sold into slavery if they displeased their father. We have not progressed as a species from that point.
Who, you are child murderer. Not so long from now I will see you and your ilk hanging from gallows.
lol, so now I murder people. Do I do this in my private Gulag LOL. I can see why you judge parents and programs (which you know nothing about) so harshly. They must murder people also, right? So the kids must be the innocent ones in all of this? They never do anything wrong. Society builds Gulags and then randomly take kids in to murder. No trial or anything? Life in the US is so harsh!!! Do you think if the kids try to lay low, maybe attend school once in awhile and obey a few of the house rules like their siblings they may be spared a death sentence?
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Yep, great they found out she was overspending, less great they never found out (or cared) she was being tortured into insanity.
You have an interesting set of priorities, who.
You forgot death,,, Katie is still alive, she hasnt died yet, so the program failed, right? She was never raped!! what the hell happened? These places are all alike, right... so where is the rape entry in the blog. Is it possible that kids get thru a program without being raped or dieing? Where are the torture entries and the desent into insanity.
Is it possible that Katie never was abused at all? My God what are these programs coming to? If they get any softer they will fail to be effective!!
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....the child's lack of bad behavior makes these parents decision all the more heinous
I can see why the posters here feel the way they do. Katie is innocent in all of this! Why didnt someone mention this earlier? These kids are just randomly plucked out of society and sent to programs for no reason. All these kids are victims of a cruel random occurance.
That’s right, like Jews during the holocaust, or blacks during America’s slave era, they are more of history’s innocent victims butchered and martyred in a cruel convergence of inadequate and abusive parents and an unresponsive and corrupt state.
During the Greco-Roman period, children could be sold into slavery if they displeased their father. We have not progressed as a species from that point.
Who, you are child murderer. Not so long from now I will see you and your ilk hanging from gallows.
lol, so now I murder people. Do I do this in my private Gulag LOL. I can see why you judge parents and programs (which you know nothing about) so harshly. They must murder people also, right? So the kids must be the innocent ones in all of this? They never do anything wrong. Society builds Gulags and then randomly take kids in to murder. No trial or anything? Life in the US is so harsh!!! Do you think if the kids try to lay low, maybe attend school once in awhile and obey a few of the house rules like their siblings they may be spared a death sentence?
Whats wrong with you? I don't think any of us are blind to the fact that teens are tough to deal with a when your growing up we all made lots of mistakes and bad decisions. But that even if they were making these decision that would NEVER constitute abuse. That seems to be your argument here, you have never out-rightly denied the evidence of abuse only said that these kids NEED the "treatment" at these facilities. Do you really think that "misbehaving" teens deserve to be abused? Why is punishment the only method to help a teen learn? I'm sorry but our position is that they DO NOT need it, and that the programs are doing a complete disservice for the kids and their clients (the parents). Just because we are against these programs doesn't mean that we think all teens are perfect little girls and boys, quite the contrary, I think that teens who are acting out and who might actually need help are those who are cheated the most by this opportunist scheme because even the program directors know they are NEVER going to find proper treatment in a program. So I'm just wondering why parents refuse to see that. I guess the only conclusion is that the parents are intended on punishing their children, making their lives miserable (in order to "teach them a lesson") and not really concerned about their happiness, education or getting any proper treatment.
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Honestly, it sounds like this kid is miserable.
She probably hates her family, they seem like the confrontational type and she seems to be the type to get flustered and act out. I don't doubt that she has some issues dealing with the tension in the home, but I think her parents (and their incredulous judgments of her) make it hard for her to ever move on. I can really understand that kind of dynamic in the home, I have seen it with one of the kids I worked with, it was like no matter what he was doing he was constantly being scolded, punished or reminded of his misbehavior's everyday. I eventually had to sit down with the mother and point out how she are really making a mountain out of a mole hill by nit picking at everything she didn't like about her son's behavior. It was turning him into a very frustrated and angry little kid, not to mention giving him mommy issues. At some point, all the punishment and scolding becomes more than parenting and kids start to think their parents hate them, and then they start to hate them back. I'm of the opinion that the teen years is when you have to let them make some mistakes and not rescue them from the real world consequences so that they can really LEARN. the world is a much bigger bitch than an evil step mother. If I were raising this child I would take her outbursts as a sign that she really needed some space, some room to grow and I would back off a bit and stop being so controlling and judgmental. But it really seems like this situation can just biol down to good ol personality clashes. I think its safe to say sometimes families just don't get along, especially when their are step parents/children and 3 years of pent up anger to deal with.
and OMFG 3 years!!! WTF? do you know if she graduated?
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....the child's lack of bad behavior makes these parents decision all the more heinous
I can see why the posters here feel the way they do. Katie is innocent in all of this! Why didnt someone mention this earlier? These kids are just randomly plucked out of society and sent to programs for no reason. All these kids are victims of a cruel random occurance.
That’s right, like Jews during the holocaust, or blacks during America’s slave era, they are more of history’s innocent victims butchered and martyred in a cruel convergence of inadequate and abusive parents and an unresponsive and corrupt state.
During the Greco-Roman period, children could be sold into slavery if they displeased their father. We have not progressed as a species from that point.
Who, you are child murderer. Not so long from now I will see you and your ilk hanging from gallows.
lol, so now I murder people. Do I do this in my private Gulag LOL. I can see why you judge parents and programs (which you know nothing about) so harshly. They must murder people also, right? So the kids must be the innocent ones in all of this? They never do anything wrong. Society builds Gulags and then randomly take kids in to murder. No trial or anything? Life in the US is so harsh!!! Do you think if the kids try to lay low, maybe attend school once in awhile and obey a few of the house rules like their siblings they may be spared a death sentence?
Whats wrong with you? I don't think any of us are blind to the fact that teens are tough to deal with a when your growing up we all made lots of mistakes and bad decisions. But that even if they were making these decision that would NEVER constitute abuse. That seems to be your argument here, you have never out-rightly denied the evidence of abuse only said that these kids NEED the "treatment" at these facilities. Do you really think that "misbehaving" teens deserve to be abused? Why is punishment the only method to help a teen learn? I'm sorry but our position is that they DO NOT need it, and that the programs are doing a complete disservice for the kids and their clients (the parents). Just because we are against these programs doesn't mean that we think all teens are perfect little girls and boys, quite the contrary, I think that teens who are acting out and who might actually need help are those who are cheated the most by this opportunist scheme because even the program directors know they are NEVER going to find proper treatment in a program. So I'm just wondering why parents refuse to see that. I guess the only conclusion is that the parents are intended on punishing their children, making their lives miserable (in order to "teach them a lesson") and not really concerned about their happiness, education or getting any proper treatment.
:tup: :tup: thank you!
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NO NEED to subpeona his ip
here's more info about this child abuser and torturer by proxy:
Michael C Carter
Age: 44
Gender: Male
Astrological Sign: Libra
Zodiac Year: Dragon
Industry: Technology
Occupation: Senior Java Developer
Location: Dayton : Ohio : United States
About Me
A father of 5, computer programmer, alpha geek.
You've got to make contact with the alien leader. How will you tell when the conversation is finished?
When the laser blasters stop smoking!!!
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Khttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09284283089081032577 (http://Khttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09284283089081032577)
can someone use the wayback machine to make sure the above is accurate?
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evil child abusing wife is name diane carter
here are their photos
http://www.fairtaxnation.com/friends/MichaelCCarter (http://www.fairtaxnation.com/friends/MichaelCCarter)
yea, people. contact these creeps. fill them in on reality.
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We just beat the deadline to get her into Tranquility Bay in Jamaica, as they are no longer going to make loans to schools outside the US. But on further research, I decided that I'm not ready to send her out of the country. That leaves Cross Creek that has therapy programs.
...
We contacted a transport company . During the day on Wednesday Katie wanted to go back to her old middle school to visit her teachers. She didn't know she was saying goodbye.
They were coming to get her tomorrow. So I asked her to go to bed at the same time as her brothers. She had a meltdown. One of her biggest. I ended up restraining her for well over an hour - it was only because of biology that she finally gave in - so that she could go to the bathroom - though the door must remain open with me outside of it. She then finally went to bed - I sat outside her door until she was asleep.
At about 10:00 we headed to bed with the alarm set for 2 am.
We finally talked to our family rep, she seems very nice. The plan is to talk to her every two weeks, alternating with Katie's therapist. Our regular calls then with the rep will be on Thursdays. She says to expect to get in a Parent Orientation Guide in the next few days, this will help explain a lot
The youngest boy moves into Katie's room (no reason for two boys to share a room with an empty bedroom next door
Very brief, but filled with a bunch of attempts to induce guilt. Lines like "I guess now you can have a happier time with your wife" - made me want to tear my heart out, and at the same time made me angry at the manipulation I felt behind it.
We continued with the parent orientation. Chapter 3's assignment was to sign and send off a commitment letter - stating that Katie was in the program until she graduated, period.
Chapter four was to log onto the bulletin board and make a post. I did that last week already, once I got access. The board is a little cliquish - there seem to be small groups that talk a lot, and it is hard to get in on those
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http://parents-of-a-troubled-teen.blogs ... results=34 (http://parents-of-a-troubled-teen.blogspot.com/search?updated-min=2005-01-01T00%3A00%3A00-05%3A00&updated-max=2006-01-01T00%3A00%3A00-05%3A00&max-results=34)
2005
Diane and I have also signed up for Discovery - this is the first of several seminars for parents, that means I have to sell my Trans-Siberian Orchestra tickets that I got for my birthday
Katie managed to screw up my birthday last year too. It may be childish, but I am feeling a bit resentful of her for it....
her letter are all in crayon. Must be because she is in staff buddy - the lowest level at the school where she has to be with a staff member at all times, but her letters are in crayon. I got one this weekend. She is already learning a lot of the program language - but she is obviously not following it, as she is still not out of her orange jumpsuit yet. ...
I have been a bit shocked at the amount of demerits that she is getting - 1400 in one week...
It is funny, she is complaining about all the drama in her group - yet she is the queen of drama....
I had tickets to go see TransSiberian Orchestra on Sunday, and it still bothers me that I can't go this year....
WOW!!!! again - WOW!!!! Well, we are Discovery graduates. I don't know fully how to describe this - it is simply amazing....
Well, a big disappointment. I talked to our family rep tonight for our bi-weekly call, and Katie "choose out" of her Orientation seminar this past weekend
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http://mcarter.parentshelpingteens.com/ (http://mcarter.parentshelpingteens.com/)
Help For Troubled Teens
Call Toll Free: 1-800-355-8336
Ask For Glenda
Referred By: Michael Carter
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http://parents-of-a-troubled-teen.blogs ... results=50 (http://parents-of-a-troubled-teen.blogspot.com/search?updated-min=2006-01-01T00%3A00%3A00-05%3A00&updated-max=2007-01-01T00%3A00%3A00-05%3A00&max-results=50)
Michael C Carter and diane carte, Moraine, Ohio, Dayton OHIO "I work at Reynolds and Reynolds where I've been (and continue to be) a computer programmer for 16 years. I am the treasurer and webmaster for the West Carrollton Band Boosters "
2006:
DEC
We talked with Katie, and her brothers had a chance to say hi as well. That was pretty much all that was in the call, just a chance for everyone to say Merry Christmas.
My frustration level is running high . I got a letter saying how she was going to work at being accountable, and 'honestly' answering some of my questions about what she wanted in her life, as well as another confession letter describing how she had gotten into some personal items of Diane's and mine.
DEC
"COME CLEAN IN ORANGE"
Katie is back in orange. She got a Cat 4, then several more, and did a "Come Clean", where she basically gets caught up on all the cats she should have written herself up on. So she still has some 85 tape credits yet to go since this weekend.
[can a WWASP survivor translate this cultic loaded language?]
DEC
katie's therapist is frustrated with her, and has given her an ultimatum - either she starts working the program or he is transferring her. This means that in two weeks (12/26) she has to have 60% support on her goals (meaning that she has to have 60% of the requirements met as judged by the other girls in the group) or she is going to be moved.
Her first response was to just move her now. For the fourteen months she has been there, she has yet to be accountable for anything. Whenever anyone calls her on anything, she wants to argue, rather than admitting it and being accountable for it.
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http://mcarter.parentshelpingteens.com/
Help For Troubled Teens
Call Toll Free: 1-800-355-8336
Ask For Glenda
Referred By: Michael Carter
Looks like they're playing the referral game too... sigh.. it's how Sue Scheff got into the business.
I wonder if they tell other parents how they get kickbacks for every kid they refer. It's illegal for a judge to do it, but parents? nobody bats an eye.
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http://mcarter.parentshelpingteens.com/
Help For Troubled Teens
Call Toll Free: 1-800-355-8336
Ask For Glenda
Referred By: Michael Carter
Looks like they're playing the referral game too... sigh.. it's how Sue Scheff got into the business.
I wonder if they tell other parents how they get kickbacks for every kid they refer. It's illegal for a judge to do it, but parents? nobody bats an eye.
Psy, why don't you leave some messages on their blog for them. I don't have all the right links...
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Psy, why don't you leave some messages on their blog for them. I don't have all the right links...
I might try a bit later.
Look. They're WWASP parents, which immediately says something (i.e. not exactly brightest bulbs in the pack... or just plum incredibly naive). Secondly, they're already spouting loaded seminar speak, meaning they've swallowed that human potential bullshit hook line and sinker. Thirdly, they're in the referral program, meaning chances are they're desperate and/or poor and/or greedy enough to participate in a kids for cash scheme...
In short; some parents are a lot easier to talk into taking their kids out than others. On a scale of one to ten... this would be an 8, with probably the most difficult hurdle in getting them to listen at all.
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Psy, why don't you leave some messages on their blog for them. I don't have all the right links...
I might try a bit later.
Look. They're WWASP parents, which immediately says something (i.e. not exactly brightest bulbs in the pack... or just plum incredibly naive). Secondly, they're already spouting loaded seminar speak, meaning they've swallowed that human potential bullshit hook line and sinker. Thirdly, they're in the referral program, meaning chances are they're desperate and/or poor and/or greedy enough to participate in a kids for cash scheme...
In short; some parents are a lot easier to talk into taking their kids out than others. On a scale of one to ten... this would be an 8, with probably the most difficult hurdle in getting them to listen at all.
I really must agree, as much as I feel I might be doing a good thing but reaching out to them I can really only sense it would be ill fated. They are just to far along the program bandwagon... their feet are probably glued, and their child is still the enemy in their eyes. I might have better luck if I could get a hold of Katie Carter. At least she would be able to tell us about what happened in the program, and after shes sorted some stuff out we could help with the confrontation.
but please help me clarify something did I seriously read that these parents are actually restraining this girl at home? because she "melts down"? I'm a bit confused to know if this was before or after the program and if that excerpt implies that they are sending her back to the program.
IMO The parents who decide to send their kids back are 100% entitled to the term "abusive parent". Not only do they see first hand that the "treatment" at the program is a sham and DID NOT help their daughter change, but they should know by now that their daughter was abused.... how could they not? with all her melt downs did she not tell them that she was abused.... or did they just chalk it up to her manipulating? Parents like this send their kids to the programs for one reason and one reason only.... they resent their teens and want them to suffer and be punished, but they dont want to have to deal with it anymore. ugh I'm seriously sick to my stomach. If this girl goes back, even for a year, that's her entire high school years spent in a program, she will have missed her entire adolescence! If shes not fucked in the head by now, than she most definitely will be once she hits 18 and her family abandons her like the program requires them to if she takes the exit plan. Can you believe that? A program that claims to "help" children, requiring that the families abuse, unnecessarily control and abandon their own children. The saddest thing is tho, that these parents are willing to do such a thing.
Honestly at this point I wouldn't mind emailing them if only to flood their inbox with flame.
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DEC
"COME CLEAN IN ORANGE"
Katie is back in orange. She got a Cat 4, then several more, and did a "Come Clean", where she basically gets caught up on all the cats she should have written herself up on. So she still has some 85 tape credits yet to go since this weekend.
Translation:
She must have broken a rule like... cussing or it could be a "self inflicted injury" (which could be popping a zit) and then when she got caught for this act they interrogated her (most likely 3 upperlevels and a staff member) and forced her to admit to things in the past she may or may not have done that could have resulted in consequences. (if we are going on the zit popping injury they probably forced her to admit that she pops her zits all the time, and also pulls her arm hairs out) I dunno that's really just a guess, but its very possible that it could be a super un-dramatic thing that has been deemed to fit into a cat 4 category. For all I know though, she could be trying to kill herself or run away but they are obviously making her admit she did many other things besides that. I do think however that if it was something as serious as that the parents would mention it as such instead of just calling whatever she may have done a cat 4, that's what makes me suspicious that it wasn't a big deal, but it was dramatized to them to make it seem like it was.
I knew a girl who got a cat 4 for telling her mom the truth about what happened in R&R (restriction room) and I have seen cat 4's given out for stealing extra food, writing phone numbers or lists of clothes (deemed to be runaway plans) I've also seen kids get cat 4's for "blatant rule violation" which could literally be anything.
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Psy, why don't you leave some messages on their blog for them. I don't have all the right links...
I might try a bit later.
Look. They're WWASP parents, which immediately says something (i.e. not exactly brightest bulbs in the pack... or just plum incredibly naive). Secondly, they're already spouting loaded seminar speak, meaning they've swallowed that human potential bullshit hook line and sinker. Thirdly, they're in the referral program, meaning chances are they're desperate and/or poor and/or greedy enough to participate in a kids for cash scheme...
In short; some parents are a lot easier to talk into taking their kids out than others. On a scale of one to ten... this would be an 8, with probably the most difficult hurdle in getting them to listen at all.
I really must agree, as much as I feel I might be doing a good thing but reaching out to them I can really only sense it would be ill fated. They are just to far along the program bandwagon... their feet are probably glued, and their child is still the enemy in their eyes. I might have better luck if I could get a hold of Katie Carter. At least she would be able to tell us about what happened in the program, and after shes sorted some stuff out we could help with the confrontation.
but please help me clarify something did I seriously read that these parents are actually restraining this girl at home? because she "melts down"? I'm a bit confused to know if this was before or after the program and if that excerpt implies that they are sending her back to the program.
IMO The parents who decide to send their kids back are 100% entitled to the term "abusive parent". Not only do they see first hand that the "treatment" at the program is a sham and DID NOT help their daughter change, but they should know by now that their daughter was abused.... how could they not? with all her melt downs did she not tell them that she was abused.... or did they just chalk it up to her manipulating? Parents like this send their kids to the programs for one reason and one reason only.... they resent their teens and want them to suffer and be punished, but they dont want to have to deal with it anymore. ugh I'm seriously sick to my stomach. If this girl goes back, even for a year, that's her entire high school years spent in a program, she will have missed her entire adolescence! If shes not fucked in the head by now, than she most definitely will be once she hits 18 and her family abandons her like the program requires them to if she takes the exit plan. Can you believe that? A program that claims to "help" children, requiring that the families abuse, unnecessarily control and abandon their own children. The saddest thing is tho, that these parents are willing to do such a thing.
Honestly at this point I wouldn't mind emailing them if only to flood their inbox with flame.
As I understand it, dad was restraining Katie the very night he sent her to wwasp because of a "meltdown."
"So I asked her to go to bed at the same time as her brothers. She had a meltdown. One of her biggest. I ended up restraining her for well over an hour - it was only because of biology that she finally gave in - so that she could go to the bathroom - though the door must remain open with me outside of it. "
Later that night she was at wwasp, cross creek.
It sounds like Kaite is back from wwasp after 3 years, is now an adult, and is about to get kicked out of the house. She has already missed her entire adolescance. 3 years.
Look , i am physically ill and kind of limited in what I can do...so great idea, please call Katie Carter at Micheal and Diane Carters'. Her number shouldnt be hard to track down? they are either in dayton or Moraine, Ohio.
She's out so soon.. maybe even soon enough to realistically press charges against the people who tortured her, cross creek. It will be great for her to learn there's a community of survivors who know that she has expereinced TORTURE, and understand her pain.
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Psy, why don't you leave some messages on their blog for them. I don't have all the right links...
I might try a bit later.
Look. They're WWASP parents, which immediately says something (i.e. not exactly brightest bulbs in the pack... or just plum incredibly naive). Secondly, they're already spouting loaded seminar speak, meaning they've swallowed that human potential bullshit hook line and sinker. Thirdly, they're in the referral program, meaning chances are they're desperate and/or poor and/or greedy enough to participate in a kids for cash scheme...
In short; some parents are a lot easier to talk into taking their kids out than others. On a scale of one to ten... this would be an 8, with probably the most difficult hurdle in getting them to listen at all.
Mom and dad seem to be a mixture of crazy, uncaring, abusive and not all that smart; Micheal's at least concerned about Katie, even if its in a warped way, Diane Carter is a rank, child abusing bitch who quite clearly simple wanted Katie to disappear.
I doubt Diane Carter will be receptive but Michael might be. He is not wealthy and the cost of the wwasp gulag per year was more than his income per year. The fact he's been ripped off by a pyramid scheme that's been classified as a cult, and uses cultic manipulations might rankle them. They both sound somewhat culticly enmeshed, though.They're seminar "keyholders"!!
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"http://parents-of-a-troubled-teen.blogspot.com/search?updated-min=2008-01-01T00%3A00%3A00-05%3A00&updated-max=2009-01-01T00%3A00%3A00-05%3A00&max-results=47
"Katie has lost 30 lbs, and it has been three years since she was home, so when we cleaned out her room we basically didn't keep ANY of her old clothes (or much of anything else))."
so sad
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http://parents-of-a-troubled-teen.blogs ... results=47 (http://parents-of-a-troubled-teen.blogspot.com/search?updated-min=2008-01-01T00%3A00%3A00-05%3A00&updated-max=2009-01-01T00%3A00%3A00-05%3A00&max-results=47)
I've been very frustrated lately. Katie is still not working like she should, and it has been 32 months as of today. She, of course, doesn't know that she only has three months left there before all our money is gone.
As per usual, kids need the program until their parents money runs out.
http://parents-of-a-troubled-teen.blogs ... results=47 (http://parents-of-a-troubled-teen.blogspot.com/search?updated-min=2008-01-01T00%3A00%3A00-05%3A00&updated-max=2009-01-01T00%3A00%3A00-05%3A00&max-results=47)
She has now decided that she wants to go into music in college, and go to Julliard. It is very hard to be supportive of unrealistic goals.
Yes, you shit, by locking your kid up in an institution devoted to torturing kids into insanity you have rendered her life goal unrealistic. If you hadn't financed her incarceration, thereby bankrupting yourself, she would have had an opportunity to develop her musical skills. Congrats on being an abusive parent!
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http://parents-of-a-troubled-teen.blogs ... results=47 (http://parents-of-a-troubled-teen.blogspot.com/search?updated-max=2008-01-04T08%3A50%3A00-05%3A00&max-results=47)
We managed to do just about everything on her list for her pass, including all the food all the girls wanted her to eat for them (with pictures for her to show them!). She said that all the girls were so excited to smell the chlorine in her hair when she went back on Saturday night after we had gone swimming!
Then it was over. All to quick, but a very good visit. We can actually see the beautiful young woman that would be welcome back in our home in the future.
I should stop posting but I cant stop reading and posting the disurbing sickness. Yeah, nice you sad, sick freaks for putting your daughter in an environment so deprived that the girls act like starved 3rd world villagers. They want Katie to take "pictures of food" for them and are excited to smell chlorine?
Oh yeah, their daughter isnt welcome in their home because she isn't good enough. Nice Micheal C Carter. Your sick wife
is katies step mom not her "blood daughter" as she explained it and obviously doesn't care about her? But you? What wrong with you?
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http://parents-of-a-troubled-teen.blogs ... results=47 (http://parents-of-a-troubled-teen.blogspot.com/search?updated-max=2008-01-04T08%3A50%3A00-05%3A00&max-results=47)
I am very frustrated . I don't know what to say to her to get katie to start working again. It's like she just gave up and is back at square 1. I don't how much my feelings would be different if she were "my blood child" and not just a step child. Maybe if I would have had more dealings with her from a much younger age things would have been different. I'm not saying I'm perfect, It's just that things would have been handled differently. But Mike has done a great job with what he was dealt.
A side of me wants to just yell at her and say "WAKE THE HELL UP! Do you realize how good you could have it by just stopping all this stupid shit you continue to do???? STOP playing victim, oh poor you, you've had it SO rough. If you think rules don't apply to you, just go and make your own way in the world since you know everything. You can't live here and disrupt our lives any more. As it is we will never be out of debt. The boys know how much has been wasted on you -- yes WASTED. And they are not happy about it. They don't understand why you continue to make the stupid decisions you do and not just cut the crap and come home."
I see the stress on Mike and the boys. The money that we will never have, the easy retirement we will never have. I want to cry knowing there is nothing we seem to do or say that is making a difference with her.
The Cross Creek school is SO good. They are also frustrated and have done so much to try to make this work. I feel sorry for them to have to deal with her day after day and not being able to make her see the light.
The letters we get just seem to be rambling. I think she is comfortable there and won't do anything until it is time for her to leave...when she turns 18. We don't think we'll be able to continue with student loans for that long, however. So what then? I truly don't want her back here disrupting our lives like she did. And I truly think that is what she will do. She has learned just enough to get her by, to manipulate those enough to get attention but in no way does she want to take responsibility.
I don't know how I can handle having her back home if she doesn't change her ways. And maybe I'm not giving her enough credit as Mike says, but my trust in her was trashed a long time ago and I know myself well enough that it takes a LONG time to build that back up , IF it ever happens. All I see is her manipulation and I'm not willing to play that game any longer.""
-Diane Carter, Dayton Ohio, obese, disgustingly ugly, torturer of her step daughter, katie, who has been involved in scamming other parents into sending their kids to the twisted cultic group, WWASP,that she paid to torture her throw-away kid.
PS Look how ugly she is: She is the morbidly obese one. And she and her useless husband get on Katie's back for being overweight!? Talk about the whale calling the minnow fat. ::unhappy:: ::unhappy::
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_qMLnxkBYkuo/S ... 0_3631.jpg (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_qMLnxkBYkuo/SKh9XqZqWnI/AAAAAAAAAAQ/LU4nx4jDers/S220-h/100_3631.jpg)
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Reading here it is easy to see that many of the people posting are very superficial and judge programs and parents on the color of their jump suits and parents weight conditions. You seem to miss the point. It doesn’t matter if the mother is overweight or underweight. Those issues may be getting addressed by a doctor but you need to keep in mind that the blog is focused on Katie so there would be no reason to discuss if the mother had a thyroid issue or not. The discussion is focused on how Katie is progressing thru Cross Creek. Like any other topic there will be discussion supporting both sides. Some feel for Katies position of being away from home and learning harsh lessons. Others will sympathize with the parents and how Katies decisions have hurt herself, parents and siblings, their path towards financial crisis. These are all real issues. The color of the clothing, paint on the walls or people physical characteristics should not play into this and detracts from what is going on.
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Diane and I were given a great gift in the adult seminars, graduating Discovery, Focus, and the Keys to Success to become Keyholders, though because the actual 'keys' are now given out only at PC IV we will never receive ours. Giving her brothers the opportunity to go to Discovery, and Focus for the younger ones (coming up next month at the Youth Leadership Camp they will be attending) will, I hope, help them as they get older.
btw, is "discovery" a wwasp lgat or aspen? I don’t know.
BTW yes Discovery is a WWASP LGAT seminar.
David Gilcrease, a former Lifespring facilitator and current Founder/CEO of Resource Realizations aka Premier Educational Systems, would be the source for the Discovery seminar. Whether he is the original source, I don't know.
Resource Realizations (http://http://www.resourcerealizations.com/) facilitates the parent seminars for WWASP, and Gilcrease himself used to be involved in some of the student seminars there as well. Do a search on this forum for Gilcrease Discovery, and you should come up with a number of posts.
Hyde School also has a seminar called Discovery Group, which they have been holding for about 40 years. Although they didn't used to call it Discovery Group back in my time, it is still the same seminar. It could be described as similar to, but not the same as, that put on by WWASP. For one thing, it's shorter, and it takes place every week. Plus, Joe Gauld dispensed with some of the props and some of the role-playing.
The version which takes place over Family Weekends and FLCs (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=27197) is different, however; that is a three-day affair with bells and whistles. And recently, Hyde has chosen to introduce the "Hyde-Hoffman Process (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=26801)." What form that will take is anybody's guess. The Hoffman Quadrinity Process is an LGAT with its roots in both Lifespring and est, along with some psycho-babble about reuniting with your inner child.
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Look. They're WWASP parents, which immediately says something (i.e. not exactly brightest bulbs in the pack... or just plum incredibly naive).
Hear this Miss Antsy Pam? This is what people really think about you.
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^^^ :guesswho:
LOLOLOL
Sidetracking, obfuscation, circular reasoning, attempts to pit survivors against one another, etc.
IGNORE him.
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Look. They're WWASP parents, which immediately says something (i.e. not exactly brightest bulbs in the pack... or just plum incredibly naive).
Hear this Miss Antsy Pam? This is what people really think about you.
If you asked her, I think you'd hear a similar opinion from her regarding parents who kept their kids in the program.
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DEC
"COME CLEAN IN ORANGE"
Katie is back in orange. She got a Cat 4, then several more, and did a "Come Clean", where she basically gets caught up on all the cats she should have written herself up on. So she still has some 85 tape credits yet to go since this weekend.
Translation:
She must have broken a rule like... cussing or it could be a "self inflicted injury" (which could be popping a zit) and then when she got caught for this act they interrogated her (most likely 3 upperlevels and a staff member) and forced her to admit to things in the past she may or may not have done that could have resulted in consequences. (if we are going on the zit popping injury they probably forced her to admit that she pops her zits all the time, and also pulls her arm hairs out) I dunno that's really just a guess, but its very possible that it could be a super un-dramatic thing that has been deemed to fit into a cat 4 category. For all I know though, she could be trying to kill herself or run away but they are obviously making her admit she did many other things besides that. I do think however that if it was something as serious as that the parents would mention it as such instead of just calling whatever she may have done a cat 4, that's what makes me suspicious that it wasn't a big deal, but it was dramatized to them to make it seem like it was.
I knew a girl who got a cat 4 for telling her mom the truth about what happened in R&R (restriction room) and I have seen cat 4's given out for stealing extra food, writing phone numbers or lists of clothes (deemed to be runaway plans) I've also seen kids get cat 4's for "blatant rule violation" which could literally be anything.
You cannot just have kids running around breaking all the rules no matter how silly of a rule they are. I remember not being able to chew gum in school or talk in the hallways, how silly is that? But them were the rules, if we broke them we paid the price. If they dont want you to write a "clothes list" then dont write one!! Its not the end of the world. Maybe she likes "Orange" who knows.
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Look. They're WWASP parents, which immediately says something (i.e. not exactly brightest bulbs in the pack... or just plum incredibly naive).
Hear this Miss Antsy Pam? This is what people really think about you.
If you asked her, I think you'd hear a similar opinion from her regarding parents who kept their kids in the program.
So if you keep your kid in a WWASP program for three months, that makes you different from the rest? What is the timeline a parent must cross to make them part of your WWASP parent generalization? 4 months? 12 months?
You had it right the first time. Any parent who even considers WWASP being a good idea for their kid, is not exactly the brightest bulb in the pack, and that is putting it very generously. A more accurate description might be selfish, stupid, abusive, self pitying, nincompoop of a parent with more money than sense.
My own personal timeline is 5 minutes. If you drop your kid off at a WWASP facility and can't figure out how horrible it is, then your description, and mine definitely apply. If you didn't drop your kid off, and utilized the services of paid kidnappers, well then you automatically lose the game of parenthood.
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We need to also remember that any kid who is dumb enough to push their parents to the point of spending the childs inheritance to send them away deserves what they get. We all know they had plenty of warning of what was coming down the tracks. Most these kids aren’t exactly future CEO material, but they should have been smart enough to avoid the placement.
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We need to also remember that any kid who is dumb enough to push their parents to the point of spending the childs inheritance to send them away deserves what they get. We all know they had plenty of warning of what was coming down the tracks. Most these kids aren’t exactly future CEO material, but they should have been smart enough to avoid the placement.
TheWho, you really need to get some new material. :beat:
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lol. Look how staff and program parents really think of the kids they are "helping"/"punishing": The kids are dumb
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lol. Look how staff and program parents really think of the kids they are "helping"/"punishing": The kids are dumb
TheWho, you went kind of overboard on the attempt to switch your grammar. A little more subtle next time, and people might bite. ^-^
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Look. They're WWASP parents, which immediately says something (i.e. not exactly brightest bulbs in the pack... or just plum incredibly naive).
Hear this Miss Antsy Pam? This is what people really think about you.
If you asked her, I think you'd hear a similar opinion from her regarding parents who kept their kids in the program.
psy, femanon, did you call these people yet? iTS IMPORTANT to get in touch with katie. she's been out only months and she can easily sue or press criminal charges at this point..if she's empowered. So get crackin, you!
not computer literate so dont know how to pull up immediate home addresses, but i assume you do. here's work phone:
http://www.bighillgmac.com/dcarter (http://www.bighillgmac.com/dcarter)
Diane Carter
Sales Associate
Your Friendly Neighborhood Agent
Office: 937-435-2267 ext. 134
Cell: (937) 307-5406
Fax: (937) 435-2790
Voice Mail: (937) 435-1177 x134
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lol. Look how staff and program parents really think of the kids they are "helping"/"punishing": The kids are dumb
Whats even funnier is that the kids are told the rules and the consequences yet they bitch when they are put into Orange jump suits... "Duh, why I am forced to wear this I wonder? This is abusive, I look terrible in orange! I only broke a few silly rules."
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DEC
"COME CLEAN IN ORANGE"
Katie is back in orange. She got a Cat 4, then several more, and did a "Come Clean", where she basically gets caught up on all the cats she should have written herself up on. So she still has some 85 tape credits yet to go since this weekend.
Translation:
She must have broken a rule like... cussing or it could be a "self inflicted injury" (which could be popping a zit) and then when she got caught for this act they interrogated her (most likely 3 upperlevels and a staff member) and forced her to admit to things in the past she may or may not have done that could have resulted in consequences. (if we are going on the zit popping injury they probably forced her to admit that she pops her zits all the time, and also pulls her arm hairs out) I dunno that's really just a guess, but its very possible that it could be a super un-dramatic thing that has been deemed to fit into a cat 4 category. For all I know though, she could be trying to kill herself or run away but they are obviously making her admit she did many other things besides that. I do think however that if it was something as serious as that the parents would mention it as such instead of just calling whatever she may have done a cat 4, that's what makes me suspicious that it wasn't a big deal, but it was dramatized to them to make it seem like it was.
I knew a girl who got a cat 4 for telling her mom the truth about what happened in R&R (restriction room) and I have seen cat 4's given out for stealing extra food, writing phone numbers or lists of clothes (deemed to be runaway plans) I've also seen kids get cat 4's for "blatant rule violation" which could literally be anything.
You cannot just have kids running around breaking all the rules no matter how silly of a rule they are. I remember not being able to chew gum in school or talk in the hallways, how silly is that? But them were the rules, if we broke them we paid the price. If they dont want you to write a "clothes list" then dont write one!! Its not the end of the world. Maybe she likes "Orange" who knows.
Maybe if the rules were clear, precise and specific that wouldn't happen. No one sat down with me and explained the thousands of "rules" that were enforced... you were expected to learn as you go by either watching people get those consequences or getting them yourself. But what I said was that MANY normal things can be CONSIDERED a rule violation or set into a violation category and what was the ever most frustrating is that the things "considered" as rules were really just normal human behavior, you weren't really doing anything wrong. For instance, self injury seems pretty straight forward right? wrong! you could get self injury for any number of things that were realistically not injuring yourself. and don't even get me started on blatant rule violation! I once got one for looking at my reflection in a puddle, where in the rule book did it ever say I was not allowed to look at a puddle? The real problem here is that generation after generation of upper levels have been making up their own rules, if not to save face with the other upperlevels than simply out of spite or sport. The rules in the hand book and the rules you were actually punished for were on two completely different levels. That's what was so frustrating about it all, it really seemed like they were just trigger happy to give out consequences and would take any minimal thing, and twist it around to be a rule violation. Because it was literally the job of the upper level to be "out to get you" this corruption only grew more pronounced until these demi rules became common assumption.
I'm not saying that kids should not follow rules, however I don't think that other kids should be enforcing those rules, it leaves lots of room for things to go wrong. Besides, their parents are not paying the other students to keep their kids in line, they are paying the program, meaning the program staff should keep that responsibility. But we all know this was just another ploy to save money on qualified staff and just force the kids to do it for free. :bs:
What a program parent doesn't care to understand is that there is SO MUCH under the surface that just cant be fathomed unless seen, and when the parents are in the habit of discrediting anything a child says, and what we say as well, its hard to ever communicate to them about the reality of the broken program system. Even if I did take the time to list off all the many many violations and abuses that still wouldn't even come close to covering the all these little things that added up to make our lives so miserable. It makes me sick how parents just assume that everything is peachy... in some ways I cant blame them because the program really does go above and beyond to entertain that illusion and maintain their loyalty, but you would think some of these warning signs would ring loud and clear. I guess its just difficult for parents to really connect the dots when what they really believe, and as our resident troll has just explained in his own words, their kids deserve to be abused.
::puke::
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Hi, Katie, if you manage not to commit suicide before you can google your way to this thread, realize the hilarious guy making asinine comments about how you "deserved" to be tortured, etc, is "thewho."
He's rumored to be Lon Woodbury of struggling teens,http://www.strugglingteens.com
a man who oversaw the sexual, physical and psychological torture of thousands at CEDU , before becoming an ed con devoted to "helping kids" find suitable "schools" alternatively a program parent from ASPEN an aspen gulag-cult whose spent about 6 years on this forum posting this very same gibberish, and mocking survivors of torment. In the following he makes fun of a victim of torture: a kid forced to eat "shit piss and cum" at a WWASP gulag.
viewtopic.php?p=255174#255174 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=255174#255174)
So, don't take it personally.
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Talk to me, I can help!
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Having Katie move out is the best idea her father had. When she tries to pull that crap on one of her room mates she wont get the soft shoulder she gets at home and her shit will end up out on the lawn. Sometimes this is the best and quickest ways to drive the lesson home, kids living with kids can be self adjusting sometimes. :rocker:
Katie: Keep your facebook updates going and dont let anyone like Thewho be a friend.
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The "rules" at wwasp are not like "rules" at a real school or hospital. They are the rules of a totalistic thought reform prison: designed to psychologically break a detainee, and be impossible to follow. No one should be faulted for supposedly not adhering to them
Detainees judged more “reformed” by the group and staff are forced to pass out a certain # of demerits a day, and the more demerits a detainee passes out the more "reformed" they appear. That increases (on the surface) their eligibility for liberation and elegibility for a higher comfort level. Therefore, by design, someone will always be receiving demerits, regardless of how closely they adhere to the “rules” simply because it behooves staff and detainees to punish.
The rules are also general enough so that anything a detainee does can be construed as rule breaking. Here is just a snippet of some rules for WWASP: Some are fairly straight forward like "blatant violation of meals" which basically means, I think, taking extra food when you are hungry, but some rules are "manipulation" and "rude act," which be any behavior an adolescent detainee or staff chooses to interpret as insincere or bad. So a detainee can say, "good morning" and that can be "manipulating" because supposedly you are flattering a fellow detainee for some gain, but if don't say good morning that could be a "rude act." Then, there is the sheer number of and impossible demands of the rules.
Anyone honestly feel they could or SHOULD follow these rules on this schedule of this WWASP totalist thought reform prison:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=255174#255174 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=255174#255174)
Demerits and Inappropriate Behavior outline
Category 1:
101 Rude Act
102 Rude Manners
103 Disrespect to Staff
104 Rude Comments
105 Destructive Peer Relations
106 Disrespect of Property
107 Inappropriate Comments
108 Unsatisfactory Effort
109 Unsatisfactory Attitude
110 Late
111 Unsatisfactory Inspection
112 Dress Code Violation
113 Manipulation
114 Horseplay
115 Dishonesty
116 Breaking Silence
Category 2:
201 Trend
202 Major Rude Act
203 Major Horseplay
204 Shutdown Violation
205 Violation of Visit
206 Insubordination
207 Major Mischief
208 Defacing (Restitution)
209 Out of Area
210 Blatant Rule Violation
211 Major Negative Attitude
212 Not Following Directions
213 Major Dishonesty
214 Minor Contraband
215 Breaking Silence
216 Blatant Violation of Meals
217 Note Passing
218 Gossiping
219 Unmarked Items
220 Borrowing and Lending
Category 3:
301 Group Removal
302 Refusal
303 Theft
304 Vandalism-Restitution
305 Cheating
306 Physical intimidation
307 Lying on Statement of Fact
308 Major Contraband
309 Breaking Confidentiality
Category 4:
401 Fighting
402 Tobacco
403 Disruptive Removal
404 Alcohol/Drugs
405 Serious Misconduct
406 Weapons
407 Run Away Plans
Category 5:
501 Run Away
502 Out of Control
503 Self Inflicted Injury
WORK
1. Refusal to work is regarded as misconduct.
2. All cadets’ will be assigned to work crews under the supervision of an instructor.
3. Work will consist of a variety of maintenance, custodial and construction assignments.
4. Workers will be provided with appropriate clothing and equipment.
5. Work will generally be scheduled Monday through Friday from 0800 hours until sunset.
6. Workers are strictly prohibited from unauthorized contacts with non-Camp personnel while outside the
fence. Violation will result in immediate disciplinary action.
7. Workers must remain at their assigned work site and under the supervision of staff.
Any unscheduled or unauthorized departure or absence from the work site or vehicle will be considered an
escape subject to criminal prosecution.
A. ESCAPE - A person commits an offense if he unlawfully removes himself from official
detention following temporary leave granted for a specific purpose or limited period, or leaves his
work site unauthorized.
B. Permitting or Facilitating Escape — Any person who knowingly causes or facilitates an
escape is committing an offense. If you aid another cadet in any way in an escape, you will be
charged with aiding an escape and conspiracy.
8. While working around the main complex, no cadet will leave the place of work without authorization
from the work or crew supervisor, nor without a pass properly signed indicating the destination and the
time the cadet left work.
9. Any items found on the roads or in the woods will be considered contraband and must be turned over to
the work crew supervisor in charge.
10. All work crew cadets’ are to follow the directions of the drill instructor or maintenance repairman.
11. Unless given special permission by the drill instructor or maintenance repairman, all workers will be
required to wear a shirt while working.
12. Each cadet working will carry his share of the job and cannot quit working until the job has been
completed and inspected, unless otherwise authorized.
13. Any cadet on a work crew may be required by the crew supervisor to do any job relating to the general
duties of the work crew.
14. Those cadets’ not assigned to a work crew will be expected to be ready at 0800 hours for any in-house
work.
15. While on a work crew, cadets’ must remain in sight of the work or crew supervisors at all times and
obey all orders.
WORKSITE RULES
1. Work in the area designated by the work supervisor.
2. Cadets’ will work in any work crew that they are assigned to work.
3. Each work site will have specific areas where crew workers will not be permitted.
4. Follow each order given. Your work performance is evaluated daily.
RULES AND REGULATIONS
Cadets will:
1. Say, Yes Or No Instructor.
2. Obey all orders given by all staff members.
3. Say 'Yes, sir" or "Yes, ma'am" to all adults.
4. Say "Sir/ma’am, by your leave, sir/ma' am" when passing a staff member from behind
5. Attend Physical Training.
6. Attend drill, work details or class as scheduled.
7. Clean and maintain their individual areas.
8. Report any injury of any type to a staff member.
9. Keep clothing neat and clean at all times.
10. Shower and take care of personal hygiene daily.
11. Wear covers properly when outside the barracks. No excuses will be heard.
Cadets will not:
1. Engage in horse playing.
2. Use profanity or make excessive noise.
3. Talk back or be disrespectful to any staff member.
4. Talk to any person not assigned to Eagle Merit Camp without permission.
5. Be on racks between 0600 and 2030.
6. Borrow, sell, buy or trade items or services.
7. Abuse or threaten anyone.
8. Be out of the rack between 2100 and 0600 without the permission of a staff member.
9. Enter any office or area without the permission of a staff member.
10. Wear some type of footgear inside the Dorm Area.
B. Etiquette of Cadets
The list below will outline the demeanor/manner by which a cadet will conduct himself while assigned to
the Camp.
1 Requesting permission to speak. When a cadet desires to speak to a staff member:
(a) He will be at the position of "attention",
(b) The cadet will recite the following: "Sir/Ma'am, cadet (last name) requests
permission to speak, sir/ma'am", which will be granted or denied. If granted,
(c) The cadet will and remain @ attention until the conversation has ended,
(d) Once the conversation has ended the cadet will then request permission to leave
Once permission is granted, he will take one step backward, do an "about face" and
go.
2. Staff initiated conversation. If a staff member initiates a conversation with the cadet the cadet will:
immediately go to "the position of attention" and follow (c) and (d) above.
3. Squad Bay Areas. No cadet is allowed in any Squad Bay other than his assigned Squad Bay. Talking
inside the barracks will be kept to a whisper. A cadet desiring to talk with another cadet not assigned to his
Squad Bay may go to the common area when free time is granted.
4. THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO TALKING ALLOWED IN THE HEAD/SHOWER ROOM.
5. The first cadet to see anyone that is not a cadet, will sound "attention on deck", then all cadets will
come to "attention" until the command "carry on" is given. A staff member or individual entering the dorm
for the first time will be given this respect. None of the above applies when taps has been sounded or a
class is being conducted.
6. All cadets will go to "zero" (no noise) when head calls are being conducted prior to taps. After head
calls, Cadets will place all personal items in their proper place, strip down to T-shirts and underwear, and
standby at "attention" for taps procedure.
7. After prayer, all cadets will face their bunks and a instructor will sound "prepare to mount." The cadets
will respond by saying "Sir, prepare to mount, aye aye sir", Then a instructor will sound "mount" at which
time the cadets will mount his rack." Once mounted, the cadets will assume the position of "attention" until
they have been given the command to "adjust" and go to sleep with no talking.
8. Cadets will not call another by any nickname. Only his last name preceded by the "cadet." All
Instructors will be addressed as Instructor. All other staff members will be addressed as Mr. or Ms. or
Officer.
9. All cadets must double time everywhere they go unless otherwise directed.
Schedule
Reality:
Prep
30 min. ready
Physical Training:
3 min push-ups
1 min rest
3 min sit-ups
1 min rest
3 min side straddle hop
1 min rest
3 min lunges
1 min rest
3 min push up (wide)
1 min rest
3 min sit-ups (crunch)
1 min rest
3 min grass drill
1 min rest
3 min flutter kick
1 min rest
3 min mule kicks
1 min rest
3 min push-ups
1 min rest
3 min sit-ups (oblique)
1 min rest
3 min side straddle hop
10 min rest
1.5 hour March (60 laps)
10 min stretch
Chow
Rest
Reality:
Chow
Clean up
30 min. rest
Reality:
Academic / Skill Building:
Skill building workbooks to
be turned in. School work
from home.
Dinner
Showers: Each cadet may
take a 2 min shower
Shutdown: all lights out all
quiet
6:00 Prep
6:10 Inspection
6:30 Physical Training
7:00 Physical Training
7:30 Marching / Cadence
8:00 Marching / Cadence
8:30 Marching / Cadence
9:00 Breakfast
9:30 Break
10:00 Physical Training
10:30 Physical Training
11:00 Marching / Cadence
11:30 Marching / Cadence
12:00 Marching / Cadence
12:30 Chow
1:00 Cleanup
1:30 Break
2:00 Physical Training
2:30 Physical Training
3:00 Marching / Cadence
3:30 Marching / Cadence
4:00 Marching / Cadence
4:30 Shower
5:00 Academics / Skill
5:30 Academics / Skill
6:00 Chow
6:30 Clean up
7:00 Academics / Skill
7:30 Academics / Skill
8:00 Academics / Skill
8:30 Academics / Skill
9:00 Prep
9:30 Shutdown
WORK
1. Refusal to work is regarded as misconduct.
2. All cadets’ will be assigned to work crews under the supervision of an instructor.
3. Work will consist of a variety of maintenance, custodial and construction assignments.
4. Workers will be provided with appropriate clothing and equipment.
5. Work will generally be scheduled Monday through Friday from 0800 hours until sunset.
6. Workers are strictly prohibited from unauthorized contacts with non-Camp personnel while outside the
fence. Violation will result in immediate disciplinary action.
7. Workers must remain at their assigned work site and under the supervision of staff.
Any unscheduled or unauthorized departure or absence from the work site or vehicle will be considered an
escape subject to criminal prosecution.
A. ESCAPE - A person commits an offense if he unlawfully removes himself from official
detention following temporary leave granted for a specific purpose or limited period, or leaves his
work site unauthorized.
B. Permitting or Facilitating Escape — Any person who knowingly causes or facilitates an
escape is committing an offense. If you aid another cadet in any way in an escape, you will be
charged with aiding an escape and conspiracy.
8. While working around the main complex, no cadet will leave the place of work without authorization
from the work or crew supervisor, nor without a pass properly signed indicating the destination and the
time the cadet left work.
9. Any items found on the roads or in the woods will be considered contraband and must be turned over to
the work crew supervisor in charge.
10. All work crew cadets’ are to follow the directions of the drill instructor or maintenance repairman.
11. Unless given special permission by the drill instructor or maintenance repairman, all workers will be
required to wear a shirt while working.
12. Each cadet working will carry his share of the job and cannot quit working until the job has been
completed and inspected, unless otherwise authorized.
13. Any cadet on a work crew may be required by the crew supervisor to do any job relating to the general
duties of the work crew.
14. Those cadets’ not assigned to a work crew will be expected to be ready at 0800 hours for any in-house
work.
15. While on a work crew, cadets’ must remain in sight of the work or crew supervisors at all times and
obey all orders.
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Having Katie move out is the best idea her father had. When she tries to pull that crap on one of her room mates she wont get the soft shoulder she gets at home and her shit will end up out on the lawn. Sometimes this is the best and quickest ways to drive the lesson home, kids living with kids can be self adjusting sometimes. :rocker:
Katie: Keep your facebook updates going and dont let anyone like Thewho be a friend.
^^ thwho. What is your point, who? Simply to confuse this poor girl in case she comes here into thinking that "the shit she is pulling" is wrong and she is bad, and that YOUR comments are coming from a survior? What a very sad, sad man you are.
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Having Katie move out is the best idea her father had. When she tries to pull that crap on one of her room mates she wont get the soft shoulder she gets at home and her shit will end up out on the lawn. Sometimes this is the best and quickest ways to drive the lesson home, kids living with kids can be self adjusting sometimes. :rocker:
Katie: Keep your facebook updates going and dont let anyone like Thewho be a friend.
^^ thwho. What is your point, who? Simply to confuse this poor girl in case she comes here into thinking that "the shit she is pulling" is wrong and she is bad, and that YOUR comments are coming from a survior? What a very sad, sad man you are.
Screw thewho, let me say something here:
What if Katies parents come on here and see all that has been written about them? They are the ones that took Katies abuse for all those years yet you tear them apart. Katie cost them a shit load of money that could have been used for better things or spent on the entire family. Why are you not showing the same sensitivity. They are victims in all of this. Katie came home and started up the same shit again
Katie reverts back to her old old self calling me that endearing name of "fucking bitch….. Christmas day was fine until around dinner when she reverted back to screaming about things and making everyone miserable. Even Scout has gone back to hiding again when she starts her fits.
[/i]
Why cant she just give it a rest? Didn’t she learn anything? She has to come home and abuse everyone in the house again, why pick on the younger kids?
I cant see how you can be so blinded as to take her side, haven’t you read the blog? Maybe just cherry picked the parts you wanted.
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Having Katie move out is the best idea her father had. When she tries to pull that crap on one of her room mates she wont get the soft shoulder she gets at home and her shit will end up out on the lawn. Sometimes this is the best and quickest ways to drive the lesson home, kids living with kids can be self adjusting sometimes. :rocker:
Screw thewho, let me say something here:
What if Katies parents come on here and see all that has been written about them? They are the ones that took Katies abuse for all those years yet you tear them apart. Katie cost them a shit load of money that could have been used for better things or spent on the entire family. Why are you not showing the same sensitivity. They are victims in all of this. Katie came home and started up the same shit again
Why cant she just give it a rest? Didn’t she learn anything? She has to come home and abuse everyone in the house again, why pick on the younger kids?
I cant see how you can be so blinded as to take her side, haven’t you read the blog? Maybe just cherry picked the parts you wanted.
^^^ the who. he thinks kids being forced to eat shit piss and cum is funny. He works for Aspen edcation or is Lou Woodbury and therefore profits from convincing people child torture and abuse is normal. Laugh Riot
viewtopic.php?p=255174#255174
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Having Katie move out is the best idea her father had. When she tries to pull that crap on one of her room mates she wont get the soft shoulder she gets at home and her shit will end up out on the lawn. Sometimes this is the best and quickest ways to drive the lesson home, kids living with kids can be self adjusting sometimes. :rocker:
Katie: Keep your facebook updates going and dont let anyone like Thewho be a friend.
^^ thwho. What is your point, who? Simply to confuse this poor girl in case she comes here into thinking that "the shit she is pulling" is wrong and she is bad, and that YOUR comments are coming from a survior? What a very sad, sad man you are.
Screw thewho, let me say something here:
What if Katies parents come on here and see all that has been written about them? They are the ones that took Katies abuse for all those years yet you tear them apart. Katie cost them a shit load of money that could have been used for better things or spent on the entire family. Why are you not showing the same sensitivity. They are victims in all of this. Katie came home and started up the same shit again
Katie reverts back to her old old self calling me that endearing name of "fucking bitch….. Christmas day was fine until around dinner when she reverted back to screaming about things and making everyone miserable. Even Scout has gone back to hiding again when she starts her fits.
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Why cant she just give it a rest? Didn’t she learn anything? She has to come home and abuse everyone in the house again, why pick on the younger kids?
I cant see how you can be so blinded as to take her side, haven’t you read the blog? Maybe just cherry picked the parts you wanted.
People wonder how parents can purge their life savings in order to abuse and imprison their own child.
Well, its comments like this in WWASP LGATs and WWASP "parent support groups" and from "family heads" and va. WWASP personnel.
These groups and personnel are culticly enmeshed with the David Gilcrease’s resource realization cult.
http://www.isaccorp.org/wwasps.asp (http://www.isaccorp.org/wwasps.asp)
http://www.rickross.com/reference/brain ... hing9.html (http://www.rickross.com/reference/brainwashing/brainwashing9.html)
http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?4,9299,51349,page=2 (http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?4,9299,51349,page=2)
http://pagesperso-orange.fr/eldon.braun/awareness/ (http://pagesperso-orange.fr/eldon.braun/awareness/)
http://www.insidersview.info/breakingthesecrecy.htm (http://www.insidersview.info/breakingthesecrecy.htm)
Constantly telling these parents they are "victims" of their children, in conjunction with those brain addling EST "seminars" convinces thems they are “abuse victims,” and their initial desire to "help" their kid is manipulated into "stopping their kid" from victimizing them. Subconsciously, the anger produced from viewing themselves as victims makes them want to hurt and punish their child= more money for David Gilcrease.
You, guest, view normal human behavior, behavior particularly "normal" for a victim of organized torture now dependant on the person who financed their torture--as more “abuse” for which the child should be reviled and punished.
Its quite a feat of cognitive dissonance; on one hand WWASPites believe their children are mentally ill, so therefore are not responsible for their actions, yet they also believe that their children are responsible for everything they do and everything done to them!
To culticly enmeshed WWASP parents, their children are bad, completely insane, yet somehow omnipotent creatures. Quite the feat, David Gilcrease. Youre quite the sucker, or con artiste, guest. Whats your connection to the gulags? Are you a wwasp parent, thewho?
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You will read that she reverts back. Meaning she was abusive towards her family prior to Cross Creek.
Katie reverts back to her old old self calling me that endearing name of "fucking bitch….. Christmas day was fine until around dinner when she reverted back to screaming about things and making everyone miserable. Even Scout has gone back to hiding again when she starts her fits.
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Having her live on her own should be a good next step. She will see how good she had it at home and how important and educatipon would be in earning a living and paying bills. Wearing the Orange jumpsuit will look pretty good compared with having to wear the McHat at work.
Time for some life lessons.
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Having Katie move out is the best idea her father had. When she tries to pull that crap on one of her room mates she wont get the soft shoulder she gets at home and her shit will end up out on the lawn. Sometimes this is the best and quickest ways to drive the lesson home, kids living with kids can be self adjusting sometimes. :rocker:
Katie: Keep your facebook updates going and dont let anyone like Thewho be a friend.
^^ thwho. What is your point, who? Simply to confuse this poor girl in case she comes here into thinking that "the shit she is pulling" is wrong and she is bad, and that YOUR comments are coming from a survior? What a very sad, sad man you are.
Screw thewho, let me say something here:
What if Katies parents come on here and see all that has been written about them?
.
That's the idea! What? You don't support “confrontation” for selfish behavior? Don’t you support us abducting and imprisoning Micheal, son of Carrol Joseph Carter, of Reynolds and Reynolds http://www.fairtaxnation.com/profile/MichaelCCarter (http://www.fairtaxnation.com/profile/MichaelCCarter) and Diane Carter, 48, http://www.bighillgmac.com/dcarter (http://www.bighillgmac.com/dcarter) surrounding them and “confronting” them on their abusiveness until they confess the truth and accept responsibility for it?
Don’t you support us confronting them until they not only admit how bad they are, but sincerely believe it?
That’s what you support doing to Katie:
http://parents-of-a-troubled-teen.blogs ... results=50 (http://parents-of-a-troubled-teen.blogspot.com/search?updated-min=2006-01-01T00%3A00%3A00-05%3A00&updated-max=2007-01-01T00%3A00%3A00-05%3A00&max-results=50)
For the fourteen months she has been there, she has yet to be accountable for anything. Whenever anyone calls her on anything, she wants to argue, rather than admitting it and being accountable for it.
Under torture and mind control manipulations how long, do you think, would it take us to make Katie’s parents not just confess that are child torturers, but actually believe it?
About a month, I say. But you’re the expert on brainwashing people through torture, so what’s your approximation?
Why won't you say what is your connection to these "schools" ? Why are you such a duplicitous scammer?
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A new option that some parents are now persuing is suing the child for the cost of the program as the parents approach retirement. If the parents can prove that the child did not apply themselves while they were attending (therfore purposefully wasting the money) the parents would be entitled to a settlement equal to their costs plus interest from the time of their initial investment. The parents would not be able to tap into the childs 401K account but their income could be garnished on a percentage basis which would allow them to recoup some of their loss.
The programs are required to maintain records on each child which can be accessed and used in court for this purpose also.
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A new option that some parents are now persuing is suing the child for the cost of the program as the parents approach retirement. If the parents can prove that the child did not apply themselves while they were attending (therfore purposefully wasting the money) the parents would be entitled to a settlement equal to their costs plus interest from the time of their initial investment. The parents would not be able to tap into the childs 401K account but their income could be garnished on a percentage basis which would allow them to recoup some of their loss.
The programs are required to maintain records on each child which can be accessed and used in court for this purpose also.
Here's a real lawsuit, Katie, against Cross Creek and all wwasp programs. They'd welcome you aboard
http://www.webwire.com/ViewPressRel.asp?aId=22096 (http://www.webwire.com/ViewPressRel.asp?aId=22096)
WWASPite guest, please supply a link to this "new option lawsuit" you describe. Ridiculous lies for the purposes of manipulating parents and young people come pretty easy for you, eh?
And since there has been some "debate" on whether its torturous to physically force a young woman to wear an "orange jumpsuit" that designates she is not allowed to go to the bathroom without another adolescent watching her, or allowed to talk to other young adults at her "level," or have a adolescent detainee guard her at all times, under the premise that she is "undeserving," "irresponsible" and "dangerous," please: call the doctor in heading your local psychiatric hospital and ask for his opinion on it. Or google pscychological torture and thought reform. This abuse falls in the torturous and oppressive spectrum. Educate yourselves. This is a simple fact.
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And since there has been some "debate" on whether its torturous to physically force a young woman to wear an "orange jumpsuit" that designates she is not allowed to go to the bathroom without another adolescent watching her, or allowed to talk to other young adults at her "level," or have a adolescent detainee guard her at all times, under the premise that she is "undeserving," "irresponsible" and "dangerous," please: call the doctor in heading your local psychiatric hospital and ask for his opinion on it. Or google pscychological torture and thought reform. This abuse falls in the torturous and oppressive spectrum. Educate yourselves. This is a simple fact.
Oh come on! Have the doctor add a foot note that states if the jumpsuit was changed to “light green” then the children would have no problems with wearing it since it represents “good luck” and “renewal”. This is a simple fact and the doctor should go along with it.
psychology mood colors (http://http://iit.bloomu.edu/vthc/Design/psychology.htm)
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Forced to eat their own vomit
• Kicked, beaten, thrown, and slammed to the ground
• Bound and tied by their hands/and or feet
• Chained and locked in dog cages
• Forced to stay in isolation for long periods of times
• Locked in small boxes or cages
• Locked in basements
• Forced to lie in or wear urine and feces as a method of punishment
• Forced to clean and scrub toilets and floors with their toothbrush and then use the toothbrush afterwards
• Forced to sleep on cold concrete floors, box springs, or plywood used as beds – some had no bed linens
• Forced to assume distorted and painful physical positions for long periods of time
I am sorry, but this is so hard to believe. You really want us to believe that this happens every day at cross creek and no one does anything to stop it? I have spoken to many people and everyone concurs that If this ever happened to me (them) it would become my passion to find this person that did this to me, capture him and take him to a remote spot where I would perform the same acts he did on me and then I would slit his throat and bury him in a shallow grave for the animals to find.
This would be simple. Take a few months off, find out where the person lives and follow them for a month to understand their routine and how long it would be for them to be missed. Then at the opportune time chloroform the bastard, tie his hands and feet and head out to the mountains with some camping gear and have a blast! Keep him in a dog cage (which are portable, folds up for about $110) Make this guy live on your urine and feces for a few days until he is so sick he starts losing his eyesight. Tell stories of your time in the program and tell him how it felt to have feces smeared on your face and people urinating in your hair and restrained in dog cages. When he starts to consistently gargle instead of breathing just slit his throat and leave him for the local wild life to spread his bones for miles.
But you see this never happens and out of the 10’s of thousands of kids that claim this has happened to I am sure there would be a few who would do this. I am not an aggressive person, but I would do this to even the scales if anyone ever did this to me. Think about it, if this really occurred there would be some pretty harsh backlash after these kids got out which leads me to believe they are mostly stories to get even with their program or asshole staff members.
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10/10 with extra credit.
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Forced to eat their own vomit
• Kicked, beaten, thrown, and slammed to the ground
• Bound and tied by their hands/and or feet
• Chained and locked in dog cages
• Forced to stay in isolation for long periods of times
• Locked in small boxes or cages
• Locked in basements
• Forced to lie in or wear urine and feces as a method of punishment
• Forced to clean and scrub toilets and floors with their toothbrush and then use the toothbrush afterwards
• Forced to sleep on cold concrete floors, box springs, or plywood used as beds – some had no bed linens
• Forced to assume distorted and painful physical positions for long periods of time
I am sorry, but this is so hard to believe.
Almost everything on that list, happened to me at High Impact.
I wrote about it in another thread, I insist that you read it before you go off calling us all liars.
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=25983&start=105#p324160 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=25983&start=105#p324160)
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It would become my passion to find this person that did this to me, capture him and take him to a remote spot where I would perform the same acts he did on me and then I would slit his throat and bury him in a shallow grave for the animals to find.
Honestly if that doesn't speak volumes about your mental state I don't know what else will.
You are seriously ill, you need help.
As much as I would be consumed with glee to hear that my abusers have come to justice, I would never be able to take that kind of justice in my own hands, I just could never be a torturer/ killer.
I would probably kick more than a few people in the face tho. Including you.
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They talk about how Katie can't handle money or her job, or making decisions in general.
People learn (or at least start to learn) about managing money/work during their teen years. But Katie didn't have any "teen years"-- she had Cross Creek instead.
People learn about making good decisions by trial and error, making various decisions, experiencing their results, and deciding what works best. But Katie didn't get to learn that-- she was at Cross Creek, where she didn't have the freedom to decide anything.
And these parents expect her to come out "fixed"? Dream on!
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It would become my passion to find this person that did this to me, capture him and take him to a remote spot where I would perform the same acts he did on me and then I would slit his throat and bury him in a shallow grave for the animals to find.
Honestly if that doesn't speak volumes about your mental state I don't know what else will.
You are seriously ill, you need help.
As much as I would be consumed with glee to hear that my abusers have come to justice, I would never be able to take that kind of justice in my own hands, I just could never be a torturer/ killer.
I would probably kick more than a few people in the face tho. Including you.
So from all these psychology courses you took, did they teach you that anyone who questions anothers actions or story is calling them a liar? The courses I took encouraged asking questions for clarification, questioning the validity of information is healthy and brings understanding to the person telling the story as well as those seeking more information. Your eagerness to jump to the defensive indicates that maybe the stories are not all they seem on the surface.
Unlike you, I wouldnt let a person like this continue to torture, urinate on, force feces down other childrens throats. I wouldnt be able to sleep at night. How can you knowing the persons name where they live etc. Something doesnt add up. Out of all the 10's of thousand of kids this is done to you would think one wouldnt be able to sleep nights and would feel for the other kids that are suffering today and put a stop to it.
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They talk about how Katie can't handle money or her job, or making decisions in general.
People learn (or at least start to learn) about managing money/work during their teen years. But Katie didn't have any "teen years"-- she had Cross Creek instead.
People learn about making good decisions by trial and error, making various decisions, experiencing their results, and deciding what works best. But Katie didn't get to learn that-- she was at Cross Creek, where she didn't have the freedom to decide anything.
And these parents expect her to come out "fixed"? Dream on!
Well said!
I dont understand why that doesnt register with these people, or why they are still loyal to a program that obviously didnt work... oh yea thats right because EVERYTHING is Katie's fault... ::)
Katie's father is the one who needs to start taking some accountability, realize what role he plays in all this and how its possible that 3 years in a lock down facility take a MASSIVE toll on your social skills. I remember how behind I was when I got back... I can only imagine that Katie's problems are worse. They get so freaked out when she starts screaming, crying and having a "melt down" but have they ever actually listened to what shes saying or cared to find out why she would be in such a state of distress and easily upset?... that to me sounds like there is a serious psychological problem that has not be addressed, and instead of helping her heal they are driving her to her breaking point. You seriously can't train a human, we are not dogs, especially since this girl is now almost an adult who's "life skills" process has been severely stunted.
Well my heart really goes out to this girl, I can only imagine how she feels right now, especially when shes about to be kicked out on her ass and doesn't have the slightest clue how to support herself.
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It would become my passion to find this person that did this to me, capture him and take him to a remote spot where I would perform the same acts he did on me and then I would slit his throat and bury him in a shallow grave for the animals to find.
Honestly if that doesn't speak volumes about your mental state I don't know what else will.
You are seriously ill, you need help.
As much as I would be consumed with glee to hear that my abusers have come to justice, I would never be able to take that kind of justice in my own hands, I just could never be a torturer/ killer.
I would probably kick more than a few people in the face tho. Including you.
So from all these psychology courses you took, did they teach you that anyone who questions anothers actions or story is calling them a liar? The courses I took encouraged asking questions for clarification, questioning the validity of information is healthy and brings understanding to the person telling the story as well as those seeking more information. Your eagerness to jump to the defensive indicates that maybe the stories are not all they seem on the surface.
Unlike you, I wouldn't let a person like this continue to torture, urinate on, force feces down other childrens throats. I wouldnt be able to sleep at night. How can you knowing the persons name where they live etc. Something doesnt add up. Out of all the 10's of thousand of kids this is done to you would think one wouldnt be able to sleep nights and would feel for the other kids that are suffering today and put a stop to it.
I'm sorry what thread were you reading?... he (or it seems you) didn't ask any questions, he simply said that he didn't believe it.
That's why I offered an explanation and clarification, as I have been down this path with other program supporters (more-so staff or ed cons) and often do they share the same rationalizations, yet rarely do they ever ask me about my personal experience, they usually judge me before they ever really know what I've been through. So whether he reads that or not, I still know why I'm fighting this uphill battle.
What I would like to know is why you, NeilW, have such an interest in our forum and what program you are affiliated with and why you think the kind of "treatment" in these programs is appropriate. Furthermore I would like to know if you have children, and if you have at any point placed them in a program. I know these questions have been asked before and you blatantly skirt them, and I assume cowardliness is just another perk of your refined personality but I think it would only be fair that you reveal your reasoning for being so cold toward us and the children we are advocating for.
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What I would like to know is why you, NeilW, have such an interest in our forum and what program you are affiliated with and why you think the kind of "treatment" in these programs is appropriate. Furthermore I would like to know if you have children, and if you have at any point placed them in a program. I know these questions have been asked before and you blatantly skirt them, and I assume cowardliness is just another perk of your refined personality but I think it would only be fair that you reveal your reasoning for being so cold toward us and the children we are advocating for.
I have several children and have had a child in a program. If I seem cold towards you it is because I have seen the bias of how parents are treated vs kids on this forum. I find it hard to believe that you say who you are. People that I have known who studied psychology don’t go around calling other people names. I also find it hard to believe that you know the names of people who force kids to eat feces and vomit and urinate on them. It seems that within the confines of this forum stories like this are accepted at face value. I am not calling anyone a liar, I am questioning the story. Maybe this happened once and you are using it as an example and trying to make the readers believe it happens to all the kids at cross creek and other programs. Either way something is not right.
Take this as an example: Lets say that I tell you that I have a neighbor up the street who grabs kids on the way to school and forces them to eat feces and vomit and then urinates on them , maybe an occasional rape here and there or maybe its a teacher. Then it becomes common knowledge in the neighbourhood that this is being done and no one does anything about. Then the kids start talking about it openly on forums. WOULD YOU BELIEVE MY STORY? Dont you think at some point someone would do something? Dont you think one of these kids when they reach 20 years old will make a midnight visit to this guys house? How would any of these thousands of kids sleep at night knowing this guy is abusing other young children? My opinion would be none of them could
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I have several children and have had a child in a program. If I seem cold towards you it is because I have seen the bias of how parents are treated vs kids on this forum. I find it hard to believe that you say who you are. People that I have known who studied psychology don’t go around calling other people names. I also find it hard to believe that you know the names of people who force kids to eat feces and vomit and urinate on them. It seems that within the confines of this forum stories like this are accepted at face value. I am not calling anyone a liar, I am questioning the story. Maybe this happened once and you are using it as an example and trying to make the readers believe it happens to all the kids at cross creek and other programs. Either way something is not right.
Take this as an example: Lets say that I tell you that I have a neighbor up the street who grabs kids on the way to school and forces them to eat feces and vomit and then urinates on them , maybe an occasional rape here and there or maybe its a teacher. Then it becomes common knowledge in the neighbourhood that this is being done and no one does anything about. Then the kids start talking about it openly on forums. WOULD YOU BELIEVE MY STORY? Dont you think at some point someone would do something? Dont you think one of these kids when they reach 20 years old will make a midnight visit to this guys house? How would any of these thousands of kids sleep at night knowing this guy is abusing other young children? My opinion would be none of them could
^^^TheWho^^^
Translation: Please talk to me Femanon, I am so desperate to talk to someone and the rest of fornits is wise to my games. :roflmao:
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It would become my passion to find this person that did this to me, capture him and take him to a remote spot where I would perform the same acts he did on me and then I would slit his throat and bury him in a shallow grave for the animals to find.
Honestly if that doesn't speak volumes about your mental state I don't know what else will.
I'd say this:
A new option that some parents are now persuing is suing the child for the cost of the program as the parents approach retirement. If the parents can prove that the child did not apply themselves while they were attending (therfore purposefully wasting the money) the parents would be entitled to a settlement equal to their costs plus interest from the time of their initial investment. The parents would not be able to tap into the childs 401K account but their income could be garnished on a percentage basis which would allow them to recoup some of their loss.
The programs are required to maintain records on each child which can be accessed and used in court for this purpose also.
NeilW is a pathological liar, among other things. lol.
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NeilW is a pathological liar, among other things. lol.
So calling people liars is acceptable here or does this not apply to survivors posts? I believe those we take at face value, no questions asked (as long as they are negative)
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They talk about how Katie can't handle money or her job, or making decisions in general.
People learn (or at least start to learn) about managing money/work during their teen years. But Katie didn't have any "teen years"-- she had Cross Creek instead.
People learn about making good decisions by trial and error, making various decisions, experiencing their results, and deciding what works best. But Katie didn't get to learn that-- she was at Cross Creek, where she didn't have the freedom to decide anything.
And these parents expect her to come out "fixed"? Dream on!
Not only that, but not being able to handle money doesn't make you some pathological reprobate as Michael C Carter and Diane Carter, of Ohio, imagine.
The U.S. is in recession because so many people: CEOs, traders, etc., over extended themselves. The U.S is near financial depression because of that. So is 3/4s of the nation insane reprobates or just teenage Katie?
Are Michael C Carter and Diane insane deviants because they financially over extended themselves for WWASP, despite there being NO clinical (or judicial) PROOF WWASP does anything but DESTROY people--putting aside the issue of torturing Kaite into deep mental disability--isn't that just plain BAD financial planning and shouldn't they therefore should be condemning themselves now? Especially considering that they chose it over comparatively no-cost dialectic family therapy (where the whole family is considered, not just a scapegoat), any form of out patient therapy, or just simple stuff like getting a kid involved in theatre and activities have been PROVED to actually help? Even if they can claim they were ignorant about the reality of WWASP shouldn’t they be lacerating themselves now for not doing basic research? Why just flog Katie for 1000$ or so dollars?
Those sort of irrational, scapegoating, unevenly applied contemptuous judgments are abusive thought processes.
I think the blog of Michael C Carter and Diane Carter, the shameful child abusers, should be screen saved and forwarded to relevant academics so abusive thought processes and care-givers can be better understood
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I think the blog of Michael C Carter and Diane Carter, the shameful child abusers, should be screen saved and forwarded to relevant academics so abusive thought processes and care-givers can be better understood
I agree THE BLOG has good insight into what the family goes thru when they have a child who is out of control and at risk.
Screen shot:
Katie reverts back to her old old self calling me that endearing name of "fucking bitch….. Christmas day was fine until around dinner when she reverted back to screaming about things and making everyone miserable. Even Scout has gone back to hiding again when she starts her fits.
[/i]
Here is a kid that thinks about no one except herself. She even abuses her younger siblings who have to live locked in their room while Katie is home. Why cant she step back and see the damage she is doing to herself and her family? Why doesnt she just consider moving out? She is old enough by now.
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I think the blog of Michael C Carter and Diane Carter, the shameful child abusers, should be screen saved and forwarded to relevant academics so abusive thought processes and care-givers can be better understood
I agree THE BLOG has good insight into what the family goes thru when they have a child who is out of control and at risk.
Screen shot:
Katie reverts back to her old old self calling me that endearing name of "fucking bitch….. Christmas day was fine until around dinner when she reverted back to screaming about things and making everyone miserable. Even Scout has gone back to hiding again when she starts her fits.
[/i]
Here is a kid that thinks about no one except herself. She even abuses her younger siblings who have to live locked in their room while Katie is home. Why cant she step back and see the damage she is doing to herself and her family? Why doesnt she just consider moving out? She is old enough by now.
LOL. Neil/who's a first-rate illustration of abusive thought-processes, also, not to mention pathological dishonesty and sociopathy.
Where’s that link about the "new legal option" for “parents” of suing kids who don’t “apply” themselves in “programs,” neil/who?
Neil illustrates a cult-co-opted brain: His innapropriate "parent victimizaed by evil child" outlook that his cult has inculcated in him, makes him understand a child calling the step-mom that "checked out of the relationship" and financed her torture for 3 YEARS a "fucking bitch" as abuse. But that's not how such a situation would be classified medically, or by sane people, who/neil
Neil also illustrates a cult-co-opted brain with his absurd contradictory beleifs: Katie is terribly mentally ill therefore not responsible for her actions, and yet not mentally ill, therefore completely responsible for her actions and therefore bad, "selfish." Black is white.
Mike, is this Neil character positively thewho?
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My link is just below the link that supports your allegations. Go check it out. Also if you read my post again you will see that Katie reverted back to her old ways. She was abusing her parents and siblings long before she went to Cross Creek, so she didnt get that attitude there. (WHOOPS, guess you skimmed over that part)
Another blog entry:
Well this past week was a bad one for Katie, she dropped back to level 1 again. A bit factor on this was cheating on an algebra test
Oh my! Must be the programs fault or maybe her parents fault. This could not possible be Katies fault. Maybe the color orange is attractive to her.
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What I would like to know is why you, NeilW, have such an interest in our forum and what program you are affiliated with and why you think the kind of "treatment" in these programs is appropriate. Furthermore I would like to know if you have children, and if you have at any point placed them in a program. I know these questions have been asked before and you blatantly skirt them, and I assume cowardliness is just another perk of your refined personality but I think it would only be fair that you reveal your reasoning for being so cold toward us and the children we are advocating for.
I have several children and have had a child in a program. If I seem cold towards you it is because I have seen the bias of how parents are treated vs kids on this forum. I find it hard to believe that you say who you are. People that I have known who studied psychology don’t go around calling other people names. I also find it hard to believe that you know the names of people who force kids to eat feces and vomit and urinate on them. It seems that within the confines of this forum stories like this are accepted at face value.
Those "stories" are from 1000s of survivors, have been submitted under penalty of perjury, during in the course of lawsuits,criminal investigations, congressional hearings. They have been presented to Feds and have put more than one WWASP manager in the clink and have closed down several WWASP torture chamers. (mostly overseas by countries not bought by David Gilcrease and his evil child murdering henchmen) Time to stop calling them stories, who.
FEMANON, contact Kaite, or her brothers. Do something helpful instead of wasting time with thewho, please, ::poke:: :soapbox:
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My link is just below the link that supports your allegations. Go check it out. Also if you read my post again you will see that Katie reverted back to her old ways. She was abusing her parents and siblings long before she went to Cross Creek, so she didnt get that attitude there. (WHOOPS, guess you skimmed over that part)
Another blog entry:
Well this past week was a bad one for Katie, she dropped back to level 1 again. A bit factor on this was cheating on an algebra test
Oh my! Must be the programs fault or maybe her parents fault. This could not possible be Katies fault. Maybe the color orange is attractive to her.
Oh my god! She cheated on an algebra test!! And after being tortured and brutalized and forced to torture others for 3 years? Not to mention denied an education? How is this girl not on death row? She is so BAD!!!! Go rape some sense into her, WHO. I'm sure you miss the halcyon days raping your daughter through ASPEN.
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LOL Forgot we dont have to raise the bar too high here. Cheating must be the norm and no big deal, sorry I pointed that out.
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So if cheating is deemed acceptable here then being told you have to study must be considered abusive. I am starting to catch on to the definitions here. I can see how badly you were abused studying in orange jumpsuits is very abusive!
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Cheating must be the norm and no big deal, sorry I pointed that out.
http://careertechtesting.blogspot.com/2 ... chool.html (http://careertechtesting.blogspot.com/2008/12/cheating-on-rise-among-high-school.html)
"64 Percent Admit to Cheating on Tests In High School this past year"
Your horror at katie's cheating and your conclusion Katie should be imprisoned without due process because of it, or get a “cat,” or perhaps thrown onto the street or is otherwise pathological are abusive thought processes and reactions:
viewing "normal" though non-ideal behavior as quixotically "bad" and responding to it with disproportionate aggression, and with a failure to understand it in its context: she has been denied any education and tortured into insanity. Grade level accomplishment and ideal behavior is unfair to expect, yet she faces shaming and torment should she fail her test.
You’re like Nixmary Brown’s dad. Nixmary Brown stole a yogurt. That behavior is "normal" though non-ideal. But, like you, her step-dad saw it as “bad,” unrealistically. Like you, he responded to it with disproportioned aggression: he beat Brown to death. Like you, he failed to understand it the action within the context of its environment: he was starving the child
With some exceptions, abusiveness is what makes a parent a "program parent" NOT a child's behavior.
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They did a room check, and she (Katie) had some things in her room she shouldn't have. I don't remember what it was, but something she shouldn't have.
On one hand these seem to be some pretty stupid and extreme rules. On the other though, that is exactly the point. Don't we all have to live with some stupid and arbitrary rules. And the main thing is to learn to follow rules, period. And be accountable for all your choices, including when you choose not to follow the rules.
She had so many write-ups that he couldn't go over them all. It sounded like she just went nuts - things like "Disrespecting peers - 70 times".
[/i]
Yikes!! Not really focused on the program is she. Must have been the programs fault or her parents, for sure.
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Like you, he responded to it with disproportioned aggression: he beat Brown to death. Like you, he failed to understand it the action within the context of its environment: he was starving the child
Love this logic. So this justifies cheating since this father over reacted then cheating seems pale compared to his actions. So you conclude cheating is okay, therefore Katie didn’t do anything that bad.lol
So again the evil program drove her to it and Katie is the victim, lovely. Do you think anyone was actually abused in a program, ever? Was it okay that Katie had to go back to Orange or was that abusive too and not Katies fault?
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Well, so far, Katie has managed to keep herself from moving forward in the program. There isnt anything that indicates Cross Creek has done anything wrong, Katie is pretty much making her own life miserable. If there is any abuse going on it is coming from Katie not the program. I am still reading the blog but Cross creek is really trying to help Katie but she isnt responding yet and doesnt feel she needs any help, although obviously her behavior says otherwise.
I will keep checking in with updates.
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http://www.heal-online.org/crosscreek.htm (http://www.heal-online.org/crosscreek.htm)
Kelly Adams
Houston, TX
kcadams1980@yahoo.com
What can possibly be said or written about an experience so damaging it irrevocably altered the course or my life ?It's not an easy task for me to tell a sensual, chronicled account of my 18 months of incarceration at Cross Creek Manor in Southern Utah. I use the word "incarceration," because that is what it was - package the process in whatever manipulations you wish, but the reality is that we were locked up. If you remember nothing else, remember this: The proprietors of WWASP and other similar Behavior Modification "Schools" are master manipulators.
I was woken up in the middle of the night by 3 strangers. I was told to get out of bed and get dressed. One stranger followed me to the bathroom and watched while I changed. I was extremely disoriented - I'm not sure I realized I was awake - so I didn't fight my "kidnappers." I was instructed to get into a strange car. I got in the car without "incident," and heard the doors lock me in. I began to get very scared and I started asking my kidnappers, where they were taking me. No one would tell me. I guess I was beginning to raise my voice (I was feeling a bit hysterical), and that's when I was informed without a shred of sympathy if I gave them "any trouble" I would be put in handcuffs or otherwise physically restrained.
they told me I was going to a nice school for girls like me. I believed that I was going to some type of 90-day rehab, I would go back home, and my parents would love me again.
When we pulled up to Cross creek manor, I didn't think it looked so bad My kidnappers escorted me through the doors where 100 or so pairs of eyes all staring at me greeted me as if I was some sort of carnival freak show. All the girls were gathered out in the central foyer area for the nightly "Manor meeting." I was wary of all those girls in sweat pants and slippers who looked like a bunch of robots. I was taken to a room with a couple of “high-phase” girls who did my “intake.” I pleaded and insisted I didn't belong there, and they just started laughing. One of the girls told me, patronizingly, "Yeah, none of us belong here either."
Shortly afterwards I was strip-searched and "nix-ed" (de-loused) by a very scary , very large woman - I was unbelievably mortified. The other girls petrified me - when they spoke, it sounded to me like someone was playing a tape recorder, and they had absolutely no sympathy for me.
My first day in "Group" with Ron (he was the director of Cross Creek at the time) he asked me why I was there. All the girls were sitting around in a circle staring at me like I was a murderer, so I said "because my parents sent me here," COMPLETELY without a hint of attitude (I wasn't yet accustomed to the program double-speak). This sent Ron into a tirade - he yelled that I was a drug addict and ruining my family's lives, etc., etc. After a lengthy barrage of aggressive, mean-spirited "feedback" from the other girls in the group, I sat down, shaken and unable to process what had jhappened.
After I had spent about two weeks in Orientation (OR) Group with Ron, I joined my "home" group with the intimidating therapist at the helm, Garth. Garth was a very large man, which he used to his advantage to create a aggressive and imposing persona. Even before Cross Creek, men easily intimidated me, but being under Garth's "tutelage" worsened my fears.
Here is where things began to get really messy. In my 18 months at Cross Creek, there were so many harmful and traumatizing incidences that occurred - it would be impossible for me to recount every one. With that in mind, I will try instead to paint a general picture that will illustrate the kind of experience that I had.
Unlike many of the girls at CCM, I was never "restrained," but I witnessed this incredibly disturbing spectacle too many times to count. I was too paralyzed with fear to ever consider doing anything that I thought might cause me to be "taken down" by staff. I remember watching girls being taken down that were simply arguing with a staff - not physically endangering themselves or others - and they would be dragged, literally, kicking and screaming downstairs and into ISO (the 12 ft., locked "isolation" rooms). I also remember seeing a girl sitting in ISO who had cut herself and smeared blood all over her face and arms.
There were other girls who I saw with broken noses and injured arms/shoulders that were put into makeshift "slings" that consisted only of an Ace bandage. I knew several girls who had sustained physical injuries as a result of being taken down - i.e., broken noses, dislocated shoulders, torn ligaments, etc.
There were plenty of girls who I saw sitting in ISO for days, weeks, and even months at a time.
From my first day at CCM, I was told (and screamed at) that I was a worthless person, a disappointment to my family, a hopeless drug addict, a bitch and slut, a waste of space, a horrible human being and whatever other disparaging remarks the staff and other girls could muster. When I first arrived at CCM, I wasn't addicted to drugs however, I, like many other girls, was coerced into proclaiming/believing that I was hopelessly addicted to drugs. It was made very obvious that if I did not affirm the program's assessment of me that I would never advance past level one, so I played along (at first), and eventually began to internalize and believe everything that they said.
The infamous T.A.S.K.S. seminars & group "processes" were especially hurtful. One of my "issues" that I had to deal with at Cross Creek was childhood sexual abuse at 11 years old, and.
During one of the Focus "processes," (which I have been sworn to secrecy never to tell about) I was physically held down by four other Cross Creek girls (high phase girls who were seminar staff) while a fifth girl screamed into my face that "HE'S ON TOP OF YOU AGAIN!!! AREN'T YOU GOING TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT?? ARE YOU JUST GOING TO LET HIM DO IT TO YOU AGAIN?? WHAT KIND OF SLUT ARE YOU??"
I was crying and screaming so hard that I could barely see - I kicked and thrashed as hard as I could, but the four other girls just kept pinning me down to the floor, and I was unable to get out from under them.
There was another "process" that Garth facilitated, during which we had to write our own tombstones (the idea was for us to experience that we had died due to our "behavior"). After we had all written them, Garth and a few high phase girls from our group went around the room and screamed into our faces anything hurtful that they could manage to make us feel like worthless and horrible human beings.
When it was my turn, Garth approached me calmly and told me, coldly & without emotion, that my grandfather (my mother's father, whom I loved very much) was dead. My grandfather had emphysema and was repeatedly in and out of the Emergency Room, so this was hardly a stretch. Garth and the other girls shouted inches away from my face that my grandfather died knowing that I was a worthless bitch, a drug addict, and that I had ruined my family. They told me that he died knowing what a horrible person I was. By this point I was sobbing uncontrollably and finding it difficult to remain standing, so one of the high phase girls was holding me up for the continued barrage of abuse. After they finished with me, Garth and the other girls moved on to their next victim - and the scene continued on, as it had with me.
The next day, Garth called me into his office and told me that he was "mistaken" about my grandfather, and that he hadn't really died. I sobbed from relief that he was still living. l do not believe that Garth made an innocent "mistake." he purposefully used my grandfather's illness to traumatize me during a process. it worked.
I was never one of the girls routinely taken down, but it still took me months to advance in the program. Let me explain - although the program cronies would say like to say otherwise, unless you cry in group and painting a very melodramatic picture of your "issues," you will not advance, and you will not go home (which is where we ALL wanted to be).
I had a hard time expressing emotion -especially when put on the spot in-group. Thus, my inability to "be real," (translation: cry) held me on the low levels for a good seven months.
As I stated earlier, I was always very bright. My intelligence, apparently, was something to be ashamed of. I was routinely punished and chastised in-group for being "better than," and being "in my head". I was specifically reprimanded in-group for using "big words". This was all brought on because I was trying to help some of the other girls with their schoolwork, which was, apparently, a bad thing. After being "confronted" about my "intelligence issue," (yes, they actually called it that) I remember trying to dumb myself down in order to not incur the group's criticism.
WWSP "school" system is, at best, laughable. I was a very good student. At Cross Creek (or "Browning Academy" as WWASP likes to refer to the fictional "school" associated with their programs), I was given a remedial level textbook for each respective class and instructed to complete the chapter exercises and a chapter test. This was the extent of our "education," and it was a mockery of my intellectual ability. I learned absolutely nothing my "senior year" in "high school"
Eventually, I advanced to level three. But let me first let you know that I wasn't allowed to speak to my parents on the phone until I had been there for four months, the first time I saw my parents was after seven months, and the first time I saw my two brothers was after nine or ten months.
I was not allowed to communicate with anyone from the outside world besides my parents - not friends, family or anyone besides my parents & brothers.
After I began to advance in the program, I became one of its most vocal supporters. I was notorious for giving "hardcore" feedback to new girls, and "not taking any crap," from anyone not subscribing to the program's mantras. I became a bloodthirsty Pitt Bull - anxiously awaiting the opportunity to tear another girl down, the way that I had been torn down before. I'm sure that I probably caused a lot of girl's pain, and this is something that I feel intensely remorseful for to this day.
After I had been at CCM for 10 months or so, I was on level five and able to take an off-grounds pass with my family. I missed my family so much by that point that I thought I might break in two. The pass really broke down a lot of the brainwashing, and I eventually reached a point where I felt I would literally go insane if I had to remain in the program.
Basically, I cracked - one night I spent three hours pacing around my room trying to figure out how I was possibly going to complete the program without losing my mind. by then, I was 18, and was able to walk out of the program if wanted to - however, my parents had made it clear that they would not let me come home if I left Cross Creek without completing the program.
My "exit plan" was pretty similar to other kids in WWASP programs - if I decided to leave after I turned 18, I would get $10 in my pocket and a bus ticket to Denver (not Houston, my native city), and my parents would not accept me back in their house.
So, back to that night when I lost it - I eventually decided, after a couple of hours of pacing, that I had to leave the program, despite the fact that I would probably be homeless.
I went to the head staff and told her I wanted to leave. She attempted to change my mind for an hour or so, but I wouldn't be swayed. Then my parents were called. We had a gut-wrenching phone conversation during which my mother said "goodbye" - at that moment she believed that she was talking to me for the last time. After my parents couldn't get me to change my mind, my 17 year-old brother, Cory, was put on the phone. I remember him sobbing and pleading with me not to leave the program, because he "didn't want me to die." I cried my eyes out during all of this, but still, my parents and I held firm. after a few hours of this, I spoke to my case manager, and she told me that I could still change my mind. I was petrified of being abandoned in a foreign city (not to mention the fact that I had no way of contacting any of my other family members, since it was forbidden to record any phone numbers), so I acquiesced, and remained at Cross Creek.
After this incident, I was ostracized and forced to "regain trust" from my group members.. If I had been under 18, I would have been dropped down to level one, but due to my age, I was allowed to remain on probationary status at level five. After a couple of weeks of groveling and enduring numerous group sessions during which I was the object of ridicule and criticism, I eventually convinced Garth and the rest of the high phase girls that I was "ready to work."
And so, I was cemented into the system -I was completely brainwashed into thinking the program had saved my life and that I would be dead if my parents had never sent me there (the same robotic mantra of all brainwashed WWASP kids). I became a cruel and ruthless high phase girl - like the ones who had hurt me when I was new at CCM, and I extolled the virtues of the program that had caused irrevocable damage to my soul.
The rest of my incarceration at Cross Creek was fairly smooth, and I graduated two months before my19th birthday. Afterwards, I returned to Houston to live with my parents for a couple of months before being accepted to the University of Texas - Arlington
I entered college a completely conflicted, damaged, neurotic, depressed and anxious person - with the next few years ahead of me to experience levels of depravity that I never came close to prior to my incarceration at CCM. I don't feel comfortable getting into all those details now, but suffice it to say, that the program DIDN'T work. To this day, my parents still do not believe me when I try to tell them about what went on at CCM. The fact that they take the program's side over mine - their own daughter - is something that I will probably feel and carry with me for the rest of my life.
Please Contact Kelly Adams for any questions for comments at the email above.
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Micheal Carter wrote a response to all the attention he's be getting:
I must say I am dissapointed only one person contacted him AND NO ONE tried to get in touch with Katie or her brothers (or am i wrong?). I don't understand why people will take the time to post on this thread, but not email Micheal or Diane or Katie.
http://parents-of-a-troubled-teen.blogspot.com/ (http://parents-of-a-troubled-teen.blogspot.com/)
Interesting to get some feedback NOW
Hmmmmm - life never ceases to amaze me.
I started this Blog over four years ago, to share what we were going through. For quite a while, I updated it regularly. Now that Katie is home and we are no longer in the program, I suddenly seem to be getting some feedback on it.
First, I apologize to the few people who have actually read this, that I am not updating it regularly any more. Situations and lives change, and our family is no longer in the same position that it was when I started this. I'd like make a committment to update this more, but in all honesty that isn't something I can do at this point in my life. I will not make an agreement that I cannot keep.
Marie - thanks for reading. I have really enjoyed sharing more with you, and hearing about how things are going with your family.
Tortured - please address any feedback to THIS blog, not my personal one. My personal one is my own thoughts / ideas / feelings unrelated to the program.
I'd like to point out that I am not on a campaign to recruit for nor to discredit the school that Katie attended, nor the affiliation to which it belonged. I have openly and honestly talked about our family here and what went on there.
I will state that my daughter was not tortured, nor abused in any way. I have been to the school, I have met the people who interacted with her every day. While it was no resort, they did nothing wrong in my opinion - and the opinions of others based on their experiences will not change that.
Our program journey is basically over. The destination we arrived at was not what I had hoped for, I will grant that. However I do not spend my time worrying about it after the fact.
I felt four plus years ago, and still feel now, that this was the best thing we could do for Katie. I don't feel that the results were what we wanted, but things could not continue in our home the way they had been going.
So yes, I have been through the program. I have seen the schools. I have seen some of the sites that are attacking them. I have read some of the books attacking the programs. I feel it is a shame that so many people attack these, while the quiet majority of those involved with them simply go on with their lives. There are so many power plays and political struggles that end up going on, and so many of them that, in the end, are backed purely by money, that it sometimes makes me sick. Are these programs for everyone - of course not. Do they help everyone - obviously not. Are some people against them - well of course.
The only question (rhetorical though it is) that I have for all the opponents to these schools is simply - what alternative do you propose? I simply see so many people that work so hard to tear down a given institution that is attempting to do some good, without offering anything better.
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This weeks update wasn't good news. Katie is still really struggling - she got over 800 demerits again last week.
But getting 3 Cat 3's in one day is ridiculous. (Out of area, major disrespect, and dropping the 'F' bomb).
Whoops, not Katies fault again! It must be the abusive program or her parents again. Must be her parents fault or younger brother who she will continue to abuse when she gets home. Poor Katie. I am sure as we allread thru this we can all see it was her parents all along that caused all of this. Katie should be preparing for Harvard about now but she was plucked from society and forced into Cross Creek for no reason.
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What I would like to know is why you, NeilW, have such an interest in our forum and what program you are affiliated with and why you think the kind of "treatment" in these programs is appropriate. Furthermore I would like to know if you have children, and if you have at any point placed them in a program. I know these questions have been asked before and you blatantly skirt them, and I assume cowardliness is just another perk of your refined personality but I think it would only be fair that you reveal your reasoning for being so cold toward us and the children we are advocating for.
I have several children and have had a child in a program. If I seem cold towards you it is because I have seen the bias of how parents are treated vs kids on this forum. I find it hard to believe that you say who you are. People that I have known who studied psychology don’t go around calling other people names. I also find it hard to believe that you know the names of people who force kids to eat feces and vomit and urinate on them. It seems that within the confines of this forum stories like this are accepted at face value.
Those "stories" are from 1000s of survivors, have been submitted under penalty of perjury, during in the course of lawsuits,criminal investigations, congressional hearings. They have been presented to Feds and have put more than one WWASP manager in the clink and have closed down several WWASP torture chamers. (mostly overseas by countries not bought by David Gilcrease and his evil child murdering henchmen) Time to stop calling them stories, who.
FEMANON, contact Kaite, or her brothers. Do something helpful instead of wasting time with thewho, please, ::poke:: :soapbox:
Already found her, contacted her and just waiting for a response. Katie's Myspace (http://http://www.myspace.com/403847648)
NeilW,
I actually think your questioning here is a valid one, because I can understand to outsiders it may be hard to distinguish that we all went to different programs and speak of different experiences in different settings. If you would have read the thread I provided for you it makes that clear. But this is my point, the program parents tend to generalize our arguments (as a whole) and assume that we are exaggerating, instead of ask us, (or even give a rats ass) about our personal experience. My personal experience was at both a main facility called Casa By The Sea and a "boot-camp" called High Impact. Some say High Impact could very well have been one of the worst programs in the history of the Troubled Teen Industry. Is there a BIG difference between the program I went to and Cross Creek? Yes, indeed there is. In fact because CBS miserably failed at giving me any education or any therapy, my case manager admitted that Cross Creek would have been better for me, unfortunately my mother didn't have that kind of money and by then, it was too late, I was already a shell of a human being. Lets also not forget that Cross Creek is WWASP's poster child program and is very much not relative to the other program's at least when it comes to physical abuse. However, I believe, from the survivors who I know who went to cross creek, the psychological abuse is far more prominent, and for some, that can do just as much psychological damage.
I'd like to address one thing, my personal opinions are not always sided with the majority of those of the other people on this forum. I try as often as I can to be diplomatic and represent my side of this issue with tact and respect, however sometimes, when dealing with program supporters, I just get angry. Think of it this way, it would be like if this were a forum where rape victims came to talk, and often men who had raped women before came to the site to argue with us about how we (or their victims) somehow deserved it. What comes to mind is "she was asking for it"... That is exactly how we feel when you people come here and call us liars, and say that we and the other teens who were abused in the programs deserved that kind of treatment. It really just boils my blood, because I know in my case, I was a victim of abuse (yes, I was one of those who they tried to force to eat vomit), and my mom was genuinely sucked into the cult that told her to keep me there despite evidence that the program was not for me. I speak out in order for that to not happen again. I think the only teenage kids who really need any kind of "help" are those who are either genuinely addicted to hard drugs or have serious mental problems, and in either case I would NEVER recommend a program. The programs are not designed to handle these cases anyway, in fact they are simply designed to keep normal adolescent behavior criminalized, (to make the parents feel "right" about their children being the enemy) but offer no real help at all. That is the reason that Katie came home with the same problems she had before (plus more) because the program doesn't really do what the marketing materials say they do. Their methods are flawed and for the fact that they have no medical or therapeutic basis in the first place should realistically be all the proof you parents need to see this is simply an elaborate con job! The children (in ALL WWASP programs) are all mistreated, subjected to countless human rights violations, psychological torment and in some cases physical torture. We stand up because on so many levels this is just wrong and every time we realize that there are still kids out there being abused, it pulls at our heart strings and we are compelled to continue doing what we can to bring about change in this industry. All we want is to protect the future generations from experiencing the abuse we suffered, and I just don't understand why you program supporters want to fight us on that, especially when we are fighting for the safety of YOUR children.
What if your kid came home right now and told you that a program staff physically tortured him and made him eat his own vomit. What would be your response to that? Would you assume he is lying? Or if you could confirm that it indeed happened would you rationalize that he had done something either before the program or while he was there that would have warranted that kind of abuse? Because that is exactly what you are saying to us.
Another thing, I do not know the names of the people who directly abused me, they are citizens of Mexico and I would have no way of tracking them down and confronting them, however if I could I would and I would do everything in my power to see that charges were pressed against them. I do however know the names of the people who contracted my abuse and I have been in a lawsuit against them for the last 3 years. Believe me, I am doing everything I can (within the law) to bring my abusers to justice. However I don't find it healthy to be focusing on revenge, instead I devote myself to this cause and do what I can to spread public awareness. This, ironically has been the best therapy I could have asked for and helped me put my life in perspective and plan for a future doing something that really matters. Some of you make the argument that there are no other alternative to these kinds of programs, well that is exactly what I hope to do with my life. After I have accumulated the appropriate amount of education and qualifications to be working with teens, and provided my financial situation improves, I plan to start community centers that offer all kinds of services for teens and struggling families. None of which would take the child out of the home, except for cases of detox or need of medical treatment.
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I certainly don't hate all parents, and I am not delusional about what a pain in the ass teenagers can be, but what you must understand is that people who, despite the information we are giving them decide to degrade us and support the abuse we are trying to fight, don't exactly earn any respect from us. I have always been in support of the two sides of the issue debating for the sake of understanding but in most cases, with the amount of brainwashing considered here its hard for us to talk ANY sense into these people, so we just assume they are abusive people if they so zealously support abuse in the programs. What I don't understand however, despite loyalty to the program, why parents aren't siding with us more often, for the simple fact that we are trying to use examples of past transgressions to keep these programs in line, and to protect the children. Why would a program parent EVER be threatened by that? Instead you would rather blind yourself to the truth of the past and the possibility abuse in the program now all because you don't want to be considered to be aligned with us?... What is wrong with establishing standards and rules that these programs HAVE to follow when treating your kid? Don't you WANT your child to be treated by professionals instead of the Mexicans, Jamaicans or hillbilly locals they pull off the street? Don't you want there to be restrictions on how and why they can physically subdue your child? Don't you think its a good idea that the education, medical and health standards of the U.S. are met? Don't you people want the safety and basic human rights of your children protected? furthermore, What is wrong with recommending the programs that refuse to follow these basic standards, to be shut down, and the staff who were abusive brought to justice? Forgive me for assuming that most program parents are abusive, I know that's a generalization but this issue is so important to me that I have dedicated my life and my dreams to it, and when people like you can't understand where we are coming from, its just easier to write you off then to care about what you think.
I'm sorry guys, I do enjoy feeding trolls sometimes.
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I certainly don't hate all parents, and I am not delusional about what a pain in the ass teenagers can be, but what you must understand is that people who, despite the information we are giving them decide to degrade us and support the abuse we are trying to fight, don't exactly earn any respect from us. I have always been in support of the two sides of the issue debating for the sake of understanding but in most cases, with the amount of brainwashing considered here its hard for us to talk ANY sense into these people, so we just assume they are abusive people if they so zealously support abuse in the programs. What I don't understand however, despite loyalty to the program, why parents aren't siding with us more often, for the simple fact that we are trying to use examples of past transgressions to keep these programs in line, and to protect the children. Why would a program parent EVER be threatened by that? Instead you would rather blind yourself to the truth of the past and the possibility abuse in the program now all because you don't want to be considered to be aligned with us?... What is wrong with establishing standards and rules that these programs HAVE to follow when treating your kid? Don't you WANT your child to be treated by professionals instead of the Mexicans, Jamaicans or hillbilly locals they pull off the street? Don't you want there to be restrictions on how and why they can physically subdue your child? Don't you think its a good idea that the education, medical and health standards of the U.S. are met? Don't you people want the safety and basic human rights of your children protected? furthermore, What is wrong with recommending the programs that refuse to follow these basic standards, to be shut down, and the staff who were abusive brought to justice? Forgive me for assuming that most program parents are abusive, I know that's a generalization but this issue is so important to me that I have dedicated my life and my dreams to it, and when people like you can't understand where we are coming from, its just easier to write you off then to care about what you think.
I'm sorry guys, I do enjoy feeding trolls sometimes.
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^^^^ Very clever, that...
;D
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look I get it, you all think that every pro program person that comes here to argue with us is TheWho, and while that very well might be the case this persons arguments are a good representation of the "program parents" argument in general, and I find it important to address that logic and explain my own.
There is a reason people just assume we are being asshole little teenagers here because sometimes you people act like it, giving short little "fuck you"'s instead of debating your position with diplomacy. So what if hes a troll, We have every right to state our position if we choose to. If we ignored every troll, or otherwise any one with a different opinion here at Fornits this forum would be pretty lame don't you think?...
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What I don't understand however, despite loyalty to the program, why parents aren't siding with us more often, for the simple fact that we are trying to use examples of past transgressions to keep these programs in line, and to protect the children. Why would a program parent EVER be threatened by that? Instead you would rather blind yourself to the truth of the past and the possibility abuse in the program now all because you don't want to be considered to be aligned with us?...
I think you may know the answer to this, femanon. Within my first 10 minutes on fornits I knew I was being conned. There is a deception within fornits that is felt almost immediately. Let me give you an example.
News item: “Child is raped by their teacher”. Now this is a headline. What typically follows is something like this:
A 14 year old male child came forward today in Oklahoma City to report that he had sex with his teacher at the middle school. The child was reportedly taken to the teachers home on occasion also. The teacher, Mrs Harriet Beecher, was placed on administrative leave until further notice.
On Fornits most posters try to spin it like this:
Dont send your kids to public school gulags because the teachers are raping “all” the kids, kidnapping them and raping them in remote locations.
If a reader asks which programs are affected the poster get the response “All the programs and staff do this”. It would be easy to say that “Tranquility Bay” had reported 2 rapes and has since closed but we never heard of one at Cross creek for example, but there is such a desperate effort to discredit “all” the programs that allegations are overstated to the point where they are no longer believable.
The new reader coming to fornits knows that 10,000 kids were not raped and forced to eat their feces in gulags. I mean come on, just by using the word Gulag adds a fairy tale feel to the whole story with an ogre in the basement waiting to rape the children. But the average fornits poster is so rapped up in their hatred of programs that they try to make others believe this and by doing so discredits themselves.
So now we need to ask ourselves: “If the poster is being dishonest about information regarding rapes in programs how do we know they are being honest in their personal accounts of what they experienced within the program?” Where does the deception end and the truth begin?
In my opinion fornits would be so much more effective if the posters were just honest right up front. Parents would probably stay long and research information they felt was credible.
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In my opinion fornits would be so much more effective if the posters were just honest right up front. Parents would probably stay long and research information they felt was credible.
Honestly that is simply your warped perception and no where even close to the truth. What you may not realize is that it is most of our positions that while the physical and sexual abuse are not common in every WWASP facility, the psychological abuse most definitely is. I would think you would be able to make that connection by now but apparently you haven't been here as long as everyone thinks you have. I know I am honest when I post, I do say that what happened to me does not happen in every program, but that doesn't discredit the fact that it did happen and the people responsible for this are running WWASP programs as we speak. Don't you realize that our actions to speak out may have had a hand in these programs starting to watch their P's and Q's? If your child wasn't tortured like I was don't you think you might owe us some gratitude for standing up to protect them?
No one has ever said that EVERYONE that goes to a program is raped HOWEVER we do stand by the FACT that every child that enters these facilities is incarcerated without due process or any significant admissions process and are subject to methods that can be psychologically damaging. How many times do we need to rephrase that we believe that psychological abuse is still abuse? We aren't exaggerating anything, you are mixing up your facts. The fact is that these programs are cutting corners that are causing these problems to exist and they NEED to fix them. Futhermore their system is based on a draconic, cruel and epically flawed system that never should have been forced upon children, regardless of their past transgressions. You never answered my question about why a program parent wouldn't be in support of us demanding change so that no child is ever abused again. Why is this a threat to you? Do you have some financial interest in WWASP schools? Will that be effected if our government forces them to stop cutting those money saving, child abusing corners? If not, then why all the hostility? Or is it that you truly believe in the "Tough Love" method. No matter how we go about feeding our experiences to the public what is really the bigger fish to fry here?... institutionalized child abuse, fraud and maltreatment or what you people perceive to be exaggeration and sympathy for those rotten little children of yours.
You can cut the bad analogies, seriously the point you made is completely irrelevant. However ironically, the same analogy can be turned around on you. Why is it that you people always assume that every program is good and choose to blindly deny our allegations. Shouldn't there be a middle ground? Just because we aren't here referring to programs like Sue Scheff doesn't mean we really think that every kid in the program is physically assaulted however we do know that it happens enough for us to need to step in and do something about it. I am not personally against ALL programs, however I am against all programs that rely on the "Tough Love" system because from what I experienced it is immoral, dangerous and entirely ineffective.
I can see you like to jump around a lot and skirt the subject at hand, I've heard that's your M.O. but seriously, next time try bringing a better argument to the table.
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What I don't understand however, despite loyalty to the program, why parents aren't siding with us more often, for the simple fact that we are trying to use examples of past transgressions to keep these programs in line, and to protect the children. Why would a program parent EVER be threatened by that? Instead you would rather blind yourself to the truth of the past and the possibility abuse in the program now all because you don't want to be considered to be aligned with us?...
I think you may know the answer to this, femanon. Within my first 10 minutes on fornits I knew I was being conned. There is a deception within fornits that is felt almost immediately. Let me give you an example.
News item: “Child is raped by their teacher”. Now this is a headline. What typically follows is something like this:
A 14 year old male child came forward today in Oklahoma City to report that he had sex with his teacher at the middle school. The child was reportedly taken to the teachers home on occasion also. The teacher, Mrs Harriet Beecher, was placed on administrative leave until further notice.
On Fornits most posters try to spin it like this:
Dont send your kids to public school gulags because the teachers are raping “all” the kids, kidnapping them and raping them in remote locations.
If a reader asks which programs are affected the poster get the response “All the programs and staff do this”. It would be easy to say that “Tranquility Bay” had reported 2 rapes and has since closed but we never heard of one at Cross creek for example, but there is such a desperate effort to discredit “all” the programs that allegations are overstated to the point where they are no longer believable.
The new reader coming to fornits knows that 10,000 kids were not raped and forced to eat their feces in gulags. I mean come on, just by using the word Gulag adds a fairy tale feel to the whole story with an ogre in the basement waiting to rape the children. But the average fornits poster is so rapped up in their hatred of programs that they try to make others believe this and by doing so discredits themselves.
So now we need to ask ourselves: “If the poster is being dishonest about information regarding rapes in programs how do we know they are being honest in their personal accounts of what they experienced within the program?” Where does the deception end and the truth begin?
In my opinion fornits would be so much more effective if the posters were just honest right up front. Parents would probably stay long and research information they felt was credible.
Clearly this is Cindy. Cindy why not offer specifics for once? Instead of using your vauge examples, post a specific instance of this occuring. It would do wonders for that credibility youre so obessed with.
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No one has ever said that EVERYONE that goes to a program is raped HOWEVER we do stand by the FACT that every child that enters these facilities is incarcerated without due process or any significant admissions process and are subject to methods that can be psychologically damaging.
What is it you refer to as "Due process"? There should be admissions screening and at least one independent person to sign off on the admission like the childs therapist or school counselor. This would be a great improvement. But the problem needs to be addressed whether he/she is incarcerated (as you put it) in the local public school, private school or a program.
You never answered my question about why a program parent wouldn't be in support of us demanding change so that no child is ever abused again. Why is this a threat to you?
I don’t see why any parent would not be in favour of improving the programs and making them more safe. I know I am.
Do you have some financial interest in WWASP schools?
no
Will that be effected if our government forces them to stop cutting those money saving, child abusing corners?
Not sure if regulation would be very effective at all. I don’t think it would hurt any.
If not, then why all the hostility?
I am not hostile. I may come across that way because many posters here seem to blame all the childs problems on the program and the parents and seem not to think the child needs to take any responsibility. You cant solve the problem unless you understand the cause or atleast be open minded enough to discuss it.
Or is it that you truly believe in the "Tough Love" method.
I believe in a structured environment for these kids.
No matter how we go about feeding our experiences to the public what is really the bigger fish to fry here?... institutionalized child abuse, fraud and maltreatment or what you people perceive to be exaggeration and sympathy for those rotten little children of yours.
All the above. We should fight against all of it.
You can cut the bad analogies, seriously the point you made is completely irrelevant.
I strongly disagree. It makes a valid point.
However ironically, the same analogy can be turned around on you. Why is it that you people always assume that every program is good and choose to blindly deny our allegations.
I haven’t read those post yet. I believe there are good and bad programs. We should identify the bad ones,expose them and force them to change or shut down.
Shouldn't there be a middle ground?
Actually, one of the problems is many posters will not attempt to discuss anything outside the extreme edges. Try to get a discussion on the good and bad programs. Try to get some of the regulars to rate programs from good to bad or bad to worse. No one here is willing to accept a discussion that involves the thought that there is a good program out there or that kids go thru programs and do extremely well.
Just because we aren't here referring to programs like Sue Scheff doesn't mean we really think that every kid in the program is physically assaulted however we do know that it happens enough for us to need to step in and do something about it. I am not personally against ALL programs, however I am against all programs that rely on the "Tough Love" system because from what I experienced it is immoral, dangerous and entirely ineffective.
At least you seem willing to be open to the fact that programs are helpful to kids.
I can see you like to jump around a lot and skirt the subject at hand, I've heard that's your M.O. but seriously, next time try bringing a better argument to the table.
Sorry, there was a lot that you said and I responded to what I felt passionate about. I believe my argument is valid. If you read around the different forums you will see that alot of the discussions are black and white and very little if any middle ground exists to support any level of debate. Ie, all programs are bad, if a parent says their child benefitted then the child must be brain washed. If a child is doing good after the program the child is doing it inspite of it, the program gets no credit. If any problems occurs after the program it is the progams fault. Poor parenting skills are the cause of the problem etc.
It is extremely rare for any one to ask another survivor “What were you thinking when you dropped out of school and sat around all day smoking weed, did you think your parents were just going to sit back and accept that?”, “Why didn’t you go to a votech school or attempt to get your GED, you were just asking to get sent away!!” Nope, never here that. Its always a the poor decision the parents made, the kids were perfect little angels and victims who did nothing wrong and had the unfortunate bad luck of having uncaring parents.
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In my opinion fornits would be so much more effective if the posters were just honest right up front. Parents would probably stay long and research information they felt was credible.
Honestly that is simply your warped perception and no where even close to the truth. What you may not realize is that it is most of our positions that while the physical and sexual abuse are not common in every WWASP facility, the psychological abuse most definitely is.
Physical and sexual abuse is the norm at wwasp. “Strip searches” and holding daily "underwear and bra checks" and other forms of forced public nudity, forcing adolescent captives to “observe” other adolescent captives go to the bathroom is sexual abuse. Holding a human being captive and coercing other detainees to follow them, and expecting them to “restrain” and beat them if they try to escape to obey some order, or alert professional staff who do the same, is assault and battery and physical abuse under a variety of statutes. Then there’s the physical abuse of slavery. From reading about WWASP it’s clear their modus operandi is intense psychological torture and “light” sexual and physical torture enforced with the threat of more intense psychological and sexual torture.
If these things were done to a human being i outside of a wwasp or gulag facility to a human being the aggressor would be facing serious criminal charges. Now that the Feds are finnally getting involved looks like WWASP and various gulags are finally being held accountable criminally.
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Sorry, there was a lot that you said and I responded to what I felt passionate about. I believe my argument is valid. If you read around the different forums you will see that alot of the discussions are black and white and very little if any middle ground exists to support any level of debate. Ie, all programs are bad, if a parent says their child benefitted then the child must be brain washed. If a child is doing good after the program the child is doing it inspite of it, the program gets no credit. If any problems occurs after the program it is the progams fault. Poor parenting skills are the cause of the problem etc. It is extremely rare for any one to ask another survivor “What were you thinking when you dropped out of school and sat around all day smoking weed, did you think your parents were just going to sit back and accept that?”, “Why didn’t you go to a votech school or attempt to get your GED, you were just asking to get sent away!!” Nope, never here that. Its always a the poor decision the parents made, the kids were perfect little angels and victims who did nothing wrong and had the unfortunate bad luck of having uncaring parents.
Honestly I think it comes down to more of a difference in personality then anything. For instance I think I would probably be a much different kind of parent than you are. You might be the kind to structure and control your teens, shelter them perhaps. I just wouldn't be so forceful. I believe in love, not tough love. Just the same, you rationalize sending away your kids because they misbehaved, screwed up even and I would never NEVER do that. I would struggle and go the farthest lengths to get my child through the teenage years no matter how hard it was because that is what being a parent is about. I don't believe there is ANYTHING a child could do that would justify sending them to a "tough love" program. Something that I think most parents don't understand is that punishment is supposed to be used in a way that helps teach kids about real life consequences, but most of you punish out of anger and spite and I just don't believe that banishment, torment and physical assault are effective life lessons. But call a spade a spade, you send your kid to a program as punishment not to "help". If a child genuinely does need help, there are already ways that they can find that help, rehab, mental hospitals, counseling and community centers to name a few. All of which follow state and federal guidelines and do not violate the basic human rights of the patient and none of which are willing to hold your child against their will unless they are court ordered. BTW "due process" means the process of the law, for instance a citizen (regardless of age) cannot be incarcerated without being arrested or court ordered, It is a constitutional right. I'm not surprised you aren't aware that minors have this right as well. They also have the right to seek legal counsel, to be allowed phone calls to family and access to child protective services, all of which are absolutely denied in the program.
The argument about the parents being uncaring comes from a point of view that we could NEVER rationalize sending our kids away, and you for reasons we deem to be sick and abusive, can. Your parenting skills would come to question in this instance because only someone who was not able, or not willing to "parent" their children through times of hardship would consider paying someone else to do it for them. I can understand that a parent in your position wouldn't be exactly receptive to our theories, but considering how you have been pointing the finger at your kids for so long maybe you should sit back and ask yourself what role your "parenting style" may have played in their rebellion. The fault isn't always one sided, actually it rarely is, but too often the parents are too prideful to admit their own faults, and it is the child who ends up suffering all the blame. We never said we, nor other teenagers were perfect, just that they don't deserve to shoulder the blame while their parents play a significant role in the tides turning the way they do.
When it comes to the success or failure of the child and whether that is to the credit or fault of the program... my theory is that it is neither. I think that the program simply throws a wrench in the teens maturation process. Most times the kids that went into the program the youngest and stayed the longest are usually the most immature prior to "getting out", Ive noticed that the program has been known to stunt the emotional growth of the teen, even into adulthood. Did we all learn things at the program?... sure. I think more things they didn't intend to teach, however if a teen decided to "change" in a program, that is simply of their own free will. Maybe being out of their normal environment gave them enough time to think about their lives, but the teachings of the program had nothing to do with how to go about manifesting that change out in the real world. There were so many things in the program that were simply a waste of our time and in all honesty that's exactly what it was in entirety... just wasting our adolescence so that by the time we got back a few years went by and we had become adults that you could kick out of your house as soon as we screwed up again. If you had lived through the program you would know what I mean. If kids came out of there changed (which rarely is that the case) than GREAT but ever think to give the kid credit for maturing a little bit? Just the same if the kid comes home and goes right back to the drugs and drinking and "old habits" that is still their choice and has nothing to do with the program. It could however be evidence that the program has no tangible effect on teens, besides a few months of social shell shock and gratitude to be home. See I don't put that double standard on this issue, I am of the opinion that regardless of if the teen succeeds or fails, the program still operated an ineffective system. The "fault" of the program is only dependent on how much psychological damage was caused, and often that doesn't even come to light until after YEARS of therapy. Going out and partying, that's just the natural process of the young human being and again, has nothing to do with the program besides just making up for lost time. But lets talk for a moment about your side of the fences argument on this one, usually if a kid succeeds after the program, then its said the the program somehow saved their life, and deserves the credit and when the kid goes back to drugs or commits suicide, all of a sudden the program takes no responsibility for the teens personal choices. Now wouldn't you assume it only fair, if they intend to take credit for the success of the teen, shouldn't they take fault for the failure?... and why do you expect anything different from us?? I tend to believe that the kids just pick up where they left off and even if they hadn't gone to the program they would still either mature on their own or screw themselves over and there's nothing anyone could do would stop that.
We all know that 'kids aren't perfect, just like all people aren't perfect but expecting them to be perfect is usually what gets you all into this mess in the first place. You can't seriously draw the line at the fact that your 15 year old smokes weed and skips school, that is honestly the most normal teenage behavior in the book. It's rebellious, dangerous and stupid and calls for some heavy parenting but NOT getting sent away. I'm of the opinion that if a parent feels that its an appropriate decision to send their kid away for minor infractions, their parenting (and logic) should be taken into question. Its just cruel. The programs are rough and its unfair to any kid to have to go through that, but especially when the crime doesn't fit the punishment.
case and point, Katie... check out that girls myspace, I would be surprised if that girl could do half the things most girls her age are capable of. So she gets into bad arguments with her parents, calls her step mom a bitch... don't you think its possible her step mom IS a bitch? Don't you think they hound her on every detail of her life and all the small little things she does wrong and never let her forget it... I bet they do. Otherwise, I doubt a sweet looking girl like that would ever feel so upset as to act out in that way. You talk a lot about the actions of Katie in CCM that, despite her words of sincerity her actions showed her true intentions. Now think about the words of the step mom, basically talking about how she hates Katie and ask yourself what actions this woman must be displaying to Katie to make her so upset... its a clear picture as to why this family had so many issues when Katie first came home, her parents were unwilling to forgive her for the past and treated her harshly, which created tension and then lead to blow outs. Teenagers are expected to be making mistakes, its called learning life lessons, but parents are expected to handle these situations with love, support and constructive consequences, not blame and certainly not abandonment at a program (and for 3 years? ugh!)
I'm tapped out, I hope that gives you a bit of "my side" of the argument.
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whooter must be whacking off to these replies :sue:
talk about a waste of time. but hey, its your time to waste. but its not the first time a survivor thought they could out argue thewho and learn the hard way its a complete and utter waste, ask robertbruce.
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oh, and if you are wondering the point of his troll, its pretty simple. he goes after the the survivor who say spent four years locked up. or maybe, say... went to the worst facility ever. then he tries to get survivor to admit not all programs are as bad as the horrible place they went. survivor reluctantly agrees, who declares victory on his personal war against "black and white" anti program on fornits. this is the same troll judgeroy used over on kev. "i know the place you went was bad, aw, poor you. but listen, the place i endorse is a spa resort compared to that place!" naive survivor: "right on, i wish my parent was as cool as you! I would of LOVED to be sent there instead. "
But what's the point of it? "who" knows what motivates someone who will mock sexual abuse victims.
my guess is he is looking for a surrogate daughter to forgive him for doing something he knows was wrong deep down. if someone was oblivious to the implications of their wrongheaded choice to use a program they wouldn't waste their time on fornits. there's some emotional wound driving thewho character that nobody has figured out yet.
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oh, and if you are wondering the point of his troll, its pretty simple. he goes after the the survivor who say spent four years locked up. or maybe, say... went to the worst facility ever. then he tries to get survivor to admit not all programs are as bad as the horrible place they went. survivor reluctantly agrees, who declares victory on his personal war against "black and white" anti program on fornits. this is the same troll judgeroy used over on kev. "i know the place you went was bad, aw, poor you. but listen, the place i endorse is a spa resort compared to that place!" naive survivor: "right on, i wish my parent was as cool as you! I would of LOVED to be sent there instead. "
But what's the point of it? "who" knows what motivates someone who will mock sexual abuse victims.
my guess is he is looking for a surrogate daughter to forgive him for doing something he knows was wrong deep down. if someone was oblivious to the implications of their wrongheaded choice to use a program they wouldn't waste their time on fornits. there's some emotional wound driving thewho character that nobody has figured out yet.
what a great and funny post, guest.
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Honestly I think it comes down to more of a difference in personality then anything. For instance I think I would probably be a much different kind of parent than you are. You might be the kind to structure and control your teens, shelter them perhaps. I just wouldn't be so forceful. I believe in love, not tough love.
Its hard to predict what type of parents we become. Some parents swear they will not spank their children yet after a long trial and error find it to be very effective and so they adopt this as a mild form of corporal punishment. We don’t believe in spanking but I can see that it is effective in some families. You will find that you will need to do a bit more than just love your children, but I am not one to lecture nor press my beliefs on others so I wont.
Just the same, you rationalize sending away your kids because they misbehaved, screwed up even and I would never NEVER do that. I would struggle and go the farthest lengths to get my child through the teenage years no matter how hard it was because that is what being a parent is about.
I have never rationalized getting help for any of my children. Every decision has been well thought out and most of our decisions we would do over again if we had the chance. Every parent does the best they can to get their child trough the teen years. Some need help via guidance counsellors, local services and in rare instances placement outside the home. The majority of the kids get through it just fine and I hope your family is just as fortunate.
I don't believe there is ANYTHING a child could do that would justify sending them to a "tough love" program. Something that I think most parents don't understand is that punishment is supposed to be used in a way that helps teach kids about real life consequences, but most of you punish out of anger and spite and I just don't believe that banishment, torment and physical assault are effective life lessons. But call a spade a spade, you send your kid to a program as punishment not to "help".
I have met many parents who had kids in programs and not one of them sent them away out of anger. All of them were seeking help for their child and family. Most parents don’t use physical assault or torment when parenting. I think this is a misconception here on fornits.
If a child genuinely does need help, there are already ways that they can find that help, rehab, mental hospitals, counseling and community centers to name a few. All of which follow state and federal guidelines and do not violate the basic human rights of the patient and none of which are willing to hold your child against their will unless they are court ordered. BTW "due process" means the process of the law, for instance a citizen (regardless of age) cannot be incarcerated without being arrested or court ordered, It is a constitutional right. I'm not surprised you aren't aware that minors have this right as well. They also have the right to seek legal counsel, to be allowed phone calls to family and access to child protective services, all of which are absolutely denied in the program.
My beleief is that all local options should be exhausted before a family should consider placement outside the home. If you have a link for this due process, I would be interested to see it. Does it cover kids who are forced to go to public schools or detention. I always thought the child was under the direct control of the parent until age 18 or 21. But I may be wrong.
The argument about the parents being uncaring comes from a point of view that we could NEVER rationalize sending our kids away, and you for reasons we deem to be sick and abusive, can. Your parenting skills would come to question in this instance because only someone who was not able, or not willing to "parent" their children through times of hardship would consider paying someone else to do it for them. I can understand that a parent in your position wouldn't be exactly receptive to our theories, but considering how you have been pointing the finger at your kids for so long maybe you should sit back and ask yourself what role your "parenting style" may have played in their rebellion. The fault isn't always one sided, actually it rarely is, but too often the parents are too prideful to admit their own faults, and it is the child who ends up suffering all the blame. We never said we, nor other teenagers were perfect, just that they don't deserve to shoulder the blame while their parents play a significant role in the tides turning the way they do.
I understand Rationalize to mean that you are trying to understand or make allowance for a bad decision that you had made and that you may now regret. There has not been any regret on my part although sometimes I rationalize having children in the first place lol. One part of the above I can agree with is that the fault isn’t all onesided and I would take it one step further and say it is a family issue not just the childs or parents. If you take your feelings about program parents as described above and flip it over you can easily see how parents who come to fornits view the kids as all druggies and losers. Because,like yourself, some people have a need to judge groups of people they don’t understand because it scares them or they don’t want to take the time to understand what makes them who they are.
When it comes to the success or failure of the child and whether that is to the credit or fault of the program... my theory is that it is neither. I think that the program simply throws a wrench in the teens maturation process. Most times the kids that went into the program the youngest and stayed the longest are usually the most immature prior to "getting out", Ive noticed that the program has been known to stunt the emotional growth of the teen, even into adulthood. Did we all learn things at the program?... sure. I think more things they didn't intend to teach, however if a teen decided to "change" in a program, that is simply of their own free will. Maybe being out of their normal environment gave them enough time to think about their lives, but the teachings of the program had nothing to do with how to go about manifesting that change out in the real world. There were so many things in the program that were simply a waste of our time and in all honesty that's exactly what it was in entirety... just wasting our adolescence so that by the time we got back a few years went by and we had become adults that you could kick out of your house as soon as we screwed up again. If you had lived through the program you would know what I mean. If kids came out of there changed (which rarely is that the case) than GREAT but ever think to give the kid credit for maturing a little bit? Just the same if the kid comes home and goes right back to the drugs and drinking and "old habits" that is still their choice and has nothing to do with the program. It could however be evidence that the program has no tangible effect on teens, besides a few months of social shell shock and gratitude to be home. See I don't put that double standard on this issue, I am of the opinion that regardless of if the teen succeeds or fails, the program still operated an ineffective system. The "fault" of the program is only dependent on how much psychological damage was caused, and often that doesn't even come to light until after YEARS of therapy. Going out and partying, that's just the natural process of the young human being and again, has nothing to do with the program besides just making up for lost time.
Actually my daughter came back and was mature ahead of her peers when she returned. The kids that she graduated with had experienced the same thing upon returning home.
But lets talk for a moment about your side of the fences argument on this one, usually if a kid succeeds after the program, then its said the the program somehow saved their life, and deserves the credit and when the kid goes back to drugs or commits suicide, all of a sudden the program takes no responsibility for the teens personal choices. Now wouldn't you assume it only fair, if they intend to take credit for the success of the teen, shouldn't they take fault for the failure?... and why do you expect anything different from us?? I tend to believe that the kids just pick up where they left off and even if they hadn't gone to the program they would still either mature on their own or screw themselves over and there's nothing anyone could do would stop that.
I believe theprogram can take credit for putting the child on the right path and that is it.
If the child gets out and gets straight “A”s I wouldn’t give the program credit for that. If the child drops out of school again I would say the program failed either. The child just needs to be placed back on track, the program cant make them smarter or less likely to commit suicide etc.
We all know that 'kids aren't perfect, just like all people aren't perfect but expecting them to be perfect is usually what gets you all into this mess in the first place. You can't seriously draw the line at the fact that your 15 year old smokes weed and skips school, that is honestly the most normal teenage behavior in the book. It's rebellious, dangerous and stupid and calls for some heavy parenting but NOT getting sent away. I'm of the opinion that if a parent feels that its an appropriate decision to send their kid away for minor infractions, their parenting (and logic) should be taken into question. Its just cruel. The programs are rough and its unfair to any kid to have to go through that, but especially when the crime doesn't fit the punishment.
I agree 100%. This is why I think prior to placing a child into a program there should be an independent person like a therapist, school counsellor that needs to sign off on it.
case and point, Katie... check out that girls myspace, I would be surprised if that girl could do half the things most girls her age are capable of. So she gets into bad arguments with her parents, calls her step mom a bitch... don't you think its possible her step mom IS a bitch? Don't you think they hound her on every detail of her life and all the small little things she does wrong and never let her forget it... I bet they do. Otherwise, I doubt a sweet looking girl like that would ever feel so upset as to act out in that way. You talk a lot about the actions of Katie in CCM that, despite her words of sincerity her actions showed her true intentions. Now think about the words of the step mom, basically talking about how she hates Katie and ask yourself what actions this woman must be displaying to Katie to make her so upset... its a clear picture as to why this family had so many issues when Katie first came home, her parents were unwilling to forgive her for the past and treated her harshly, which created tension and then lead to blow outs. Teenagers are expected to be making mistakes, its called learning life lessons, but parents are expected to handle these situations with love, support and constructive consequences, not blame and certainly not abandonment at a program (and for 3 years? ugh!)
I'm tapped out, I hope that gives you a bit of "my side" of the argument.
I think if Katie had just smoked a little weed and mellowed out around her parents the placement would never have occurred.
Femanon, I understand that you would never place your child into a program. You were abused by one so that is the last place you would send a kid. But you need to understand that parents have been parenting their children for many years and have exhausted all local options (in most cases) prior to considering placing a child outside the home. Outsourcing parenting is not the issue.. (this occurs with those who ship their kids to daycare center or hire nannies). Most kids are placed into programs at the very end of the parenting cycle. But seeking help and not ignoring warning signs or advice is responsible parenting.
I feel this is a novel so I will stop. Its been a good discussion so far.
Neil
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Look. They're WWASP parents, which immediately says something (i.e. not exactly brightest bulbs in the pack... or just plum incredibly naive).
Hear this Miss Antsy Pam? This is what people really think about you.
If you asked her, I think you'd hear a similar opinion from her regarding parents who kept their kids in the program.
You people can choose to believe whatever you want, but I am an ANTI-PROGRAM parent...for the record. I did not get involved with this cause for fun....I find what they do deplorable! I do not take what Psy said personally as I KNOW it was NOT directed at me.....blah blah...sticks & stones
READ my signature line on Antiwwasp BELOW if you want to know what I think or what I stand for:
Parents....read BETWEEN the lines of your child's letters, ask for inspection reports...DO NOT send your child out of the U.S. or to any Behavior Modification programs...behavior is only modified by TORTURE & ABUSE...you have been lied to!
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You people can choose to believe whatever you want, but I am an ANTI-PROGRAM parent...for the record. I did not get involved with this cause for fun....I find what they do deplorable! I do not take what Psy said personally as I KNOW it was NOT directed at me.....blah blah...sticks & stones
READ my signature line on Antiwwasp BELOW if you want to know what I think or what I stand for:
Parents....read BETWEEN the lines of your child's letters, ask for inspection reports...DO NOT send your child out of the U.S. or to any Behavior Modification programs...behavior is only modified by TORTURE & ABUSE...you have been lied to!
I am a program parent and a little more open minded than yourself and maybe because I am a little more knowledgable. I believe there are programs that are abusive and those that are helpful. I don’t judge people I don’t know, so I am sure you have your reasons to be anti-program miss pam. I don’t expect to change your opinions. My family has experienced great success and reading here I have seen that others have been less fortunate.
I do agree that parents should not send their children outside of the US. I have not seen any programs station there which I feel have a proven track record. Your post leads me to believe you are a little ignorant on the use of Behavior Modification. Adjusting a person behavior does not require abuse or torture, you have been mis informed. Behavior modification is achieved thru positive and negative reinforcement. If you ever had children a critical step in their development was when you potty trained your child (hopfully thru positive reinforcement). This is an example of behavior modification. I have noticed that many of the definitions of behavior mod, torture, abuse have been distorted by posters here so I can see why people here get this confused.
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BTW "due process" means the process of the law, for instance a citizen (regardless of age) cannot be incarcerated without being arrested or court ordered, It is a constitutional right. I'm not surprised you aren't aware that minors have this right as well. They also have the right to seek legal counsel, to be allowed phone calls to family and access to child protective services, all of which are absolutely denied in the program.
Unfortunately, this is NOT the case in the United States. Kids do NOT have the rights of due process; they are superceded by parental rights.
Moreover, even when the parents are vehemently AGAINST incarceration, kids can be locked up against their will if someone in a position of authority over them deems that their behavior, or even merely language, suggests a possibility of self-harm or potential harm to others.
Whether, in fact, such behavior or language actually really does present such a danger is up to the discretion (or mood) of said mandated reporter. I have known of kids as young as 7-8 locked up in psychiatric facilities simply because they happened to piss someone off in the school administration.
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whooter must be whacking off to these replies :sue:
talk about a waste of time. but hey, its your time to waste. but its not the first time a survivor thought they could out argue thewho and learn the hard way its a complete and utter waste, ask robertbruce.
Why the fuck do you care so much what other people do with their time?
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But what's the point of it? "who" knows what motivates someone who will mock sexual abuse victims.
my guess is he is looking for a surrogate daughter to forgive him for doing something he knows was wrong deep down. if someone was oblivious to the implications of their wrongheaded choice to use a program they wouldn't waste their time on fornits. there's some emotional wound driving thewho character that nobody has figured out yet.
Ding ding ding!!!! We have a winner. :trophy:
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I am a program parent and a little more open minded than yourself and maybe because I am a little more knowledgable. I believe there are programs that are abusive and those that are helpful. I don't judge people I don't know...
LOLs. Say it loud, say it proud, Hooter! :jerry:
...Your post leads me to believe you are a little ignorant on the use of Behavior Modification. Adjusting a person behavior does not require abuse or torture, you have been mis informed. Behavior modification is achieved thru positive and negative reinforcement. If you ever had children a critical step in their development was when you potty trained your child (hopfully thru positive reinforcement). This is an example of behavior modification. I have noticed that many of the definitions of behavior mod, torture, abuse have been distorted by posters here so I can see why people here get this confused.
<cough cough>
Most rational, intelligent people would never make the mistake of confusing psychologically abusive (and potentially fatal) practices of coercive thought reform with "potty training," but I guess ya can always try, eh?
10/10 for effort, Who; 1/10 for results achieved.
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You people can choose to believe whatever you want, but I am an ANTI-PROGRAM parent. For the record, I am against "forced treatment" I did not get involved with this cause for fun....I find what they do deplorable! I do not take what Psy said personally as I KNOW it was NOT directed at me.....blah blah...sticks & stones
READ my signature line on Antiwwasp BELOW if you want to know what I think or what I stand for:
Parents....read BETWEEN the lines of your child's letters, ask for inspection reports...DO NOT send your child out of the U.S. or to any Behavior Modification programs...behavior is only modified by TORTURE & ABUSE...you have been lied to!
I am a program parent and a little more open minded than yourself and maybe because I am a little more knowledgable. Oh really...then you should have been able to spellcheck the word "knowledgeable." LOL You may be more versed in "program lingo" if you went to and/or you completed the seminars. You are kidding RIGHT?? You could not see those for what they were? Tsk Tsk
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I believe there are programs that are abusive and those that are helpful. I don’t judge people I don’t know, Oh yes you DO - you "prejudged" ME pretty quickly so I am sure you have your reasons to be anti-program miss pam. Yes, I do have my reasons. After what WWASP did to my son in 60 days is MORE THAN UNCONSCIONABLE!
I don’t expect to change your opinions. You wont. My family has experienced great success and reading here I have seen that others have been less fortunate. I am very happy for you & your family....truly!
I do agree that parents should not send their children outside of the US. Now, we have 1 commonality as parents I have not seen any programs station there which I feel have a proven track record. Your post leads me to believe you are a little ignorant on the use of Behavior Modification. Again with the assumptions...how do you know that I am not a practicing psychologist?
Adjusting a person behavior does not require abuse or torture, you have been mis informed. Behavior modification is achieved thru positive and negative reinforcement. Those WWASPIES did a good job with YOU and I am sure they would be quiet pleased! If you ever had children a critical step in their development was when you potty trained your child (hopfully thru positive reinforcement). This is an example of behavior modification. Thank you for that little lesson :-) I have noticed that many of the definitions of behavior mod, torture, abuse have been distorted by posters Like YOU. here so I can see why people here get this confused.
What do you honestly expect to see on an Anti Program website???
You want to compare "potty training" to what is being done to these kids, you are living in Fantasyland? Get a grip already!
5 years later, I have living walking proof of what my son endured at CBS - he was only there 60 days and lost 25lbs because they were STARVING him!!! The main goal of these programs are about ONE thing and ONE thing only MONEY!!
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Oh really...then you should have been able to spellcheck the word "knowledgeable." LOL You may be more versed in "program lingo" if you went to and/or you completed the seminars. You are kidding RIGHT?? You could not see those for what they were? Tsk Tsk
Interesting that ewe base a persons knowledge on weather or knot they utilize or rely on spell Czech and then laugh at them. The seminar stuff I am not sure what you are talking about.
Yes, I do have my reasons. After what WWASP did to my son in 60 days is MORE THAN UNCONSCIONABLE!
Sorry to hear that. Miss pam
Again with the assumptions...how do you know that I am not a practicing psychologist?
How do you know I sent my kid to WWASP program?
Those WWASPIES did a good job with YOU and I am sure they would be quiet pleased!
Again, not sure what you mean.
What do you honestly expect to see on an Anti Program website???
I would expect to see a lot of anti-program people but I wouldn’t feel comfortable posting on one since I am not against all programs thats why I read and post here on fornits. I am sort of middle of the road. There is a lot of room for improvement for most programs and I feel there are others which should be just shut down.
You want to compare "potty training" to what is being dome to these kids, you are living in Fantasyland? Get a grip already!
Did you mean "...what is being done to these kids? The word "dome" doesnt get picked up on spell Czech, but I understood what you meant so I didnt need to stop and point it out to you just to embarrass you like you did to me, but just wanted to make a point.
We were talking about “Behavior Modification” if you recall (not specifically potty training). In order to transition a child out of diapers most kids need positive reinforcement which is classified as behavior modification. I understand that the kids in programs are potty trained, but they are subjected to behavior modification just the same. If you feel this is abusive then virtually every person has been abused and also has been the abuser. This is why it is important to get the definitions of terms like abuse and torture understood. Behavior modification covers behavior thoughout our whole life time. To answer your question above, this is what tipped me off that you were probably not a psychologist or in a related field.
I feel most of this mis communication between us is due to communication online. If this was face to face I don’t think we would have this disconnect of understanding plus there are no spelling issues.
5 years later, I have living walking proof of what my son endured at CBS - he was only there 60 days and lost 25lbs because they were STARVING him!!! The main goal of these programs are about ONE thing and ONE thing only MONEY!!
I am sorry to hear this. This is one reason it may be helpful to expose the abusive programs and let the better ones rise to the top instead of putting them all in one category. As far as the money goes we all know that we pay as we go, from the time we are born until we die. Nothing is for free and none of us work for free. My child is still doing fine (Thankfully and I do feel fortunate based on reading what programs or staff she might have ended up with)
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Most rational, intelligent people would never make the mistake of confusing psychologically abusive (and potentially fatal) practices of coercive thought reform with "potty training," but I guess ya can always try, eh?
Ursus, I never compared thought reform with potty training. Potty training doesn’t require re-education or brainwashing. Potty training is behavior modification. It is moving a child in a direction which is consistent with what is acceptable with society. It would probably be considered abusive if you did not potty train your child and send him/her to school in diapers.
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You people can choose to believe whatever you want, but I am an ANTI-PROGRAM parent. For the record, I am against "forced treatment" I did not get involved with this cause for fun....I find what they do deplorable! I do not take what Psy said personally as I KNOW it was NOT directed at me.....blah blah...sticks & stones
READ my signature line on Antiwwasp BELOW if you want to know what I think or what I stand for:
Parents....read BETWEEN the lines of your child's letters, ask for inspection reports...DO NOT send your child out of the U.S. or to any Behavior Modification programs...behavior is only modified by TORTURE & ABUSE...you have been lied to!
I am a program parent and a little more open minded than yourself and maybe because I am a little more knowledgable. Oh really...then you should have been able to spellcheck the word "knowledgeable." LOL You may be more versed in "program lingo" if you went to and/or you completed the seminars. You are kidding RIGHT?? You could not see those for what they were? Tsk Tsk
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I believe there are programs that are abusive and those that are helpful. I don’t judge people I don’t know, Oh yes you DO - you "prejudged" ME pretty quickly so I am sure you have your reasons to be anti-program miss pam. Yes, I do have my reasons. After what WWASP did to my son in 60 days is MORE THAN UNCONSCIONABLE!
I don’t expect to change your opinions. You wont. My family has experienced great success and reading here I have seen that others have been less fortunate. I am very happy for you & your family....truly!
I do agree that parents should not send their children outside of the US. Now, we have 1 commonality as parents I have not seen any programs station there which I feel have a proven track record. Your post leads me to believe you are a little ignorant on the use of Behavior Modification. Again with the assumptions...how do you know that I am not a practicing psychologist?
Adjusting a person behavior does not require abuse or torture, you have been mis informed. Behavior modification is achieved thru positive and negative reinforcement. Those WWASPIES did a good job with YOU and I am sure they would be quiet pleased! If you ever had children a critical step in their development was when you potty trained your child (hopfully thru positive reinforcement). This is an example of behavior modification. Thank you for that little lesson :-) I have noticed that many of the definitions of behavior mod, torture, abuse have been distorted by posters Like YOU. here so I can see why people here get this confused.
What do you honestly expect to see on an Anti Program website???
You want to compare "potty training" to what is being dome to these kids, you are living in Fantasyland? Get a grip already!
5 years later, I have living walking proof of what my son endured at CBS - he was only there 60 days and lost 25lbs because they were STARVING him!!! The main goal of these programs are about ONE thing and ONE thing only MONEY!!
Pam, this character is “thewho.”
He sees no difference between potty training a 1 year old and abducting, imprisoning, and torturing a 19 year old.
He does not think it is possible to imprison someone if they are under 21 and their parents’ give the OK for imprisonment .
He doesn't think its sexual abuse if three 20 year old detainees are forced to strip naked a 17 year old and forcibly bathe her because she refuses to engage in the hygiene-justified public nudity that is de rigueur at all ASPEN and WASP private prisons.
He doesn’t think human beings under the age of 21 have bodies that can be violated or minds or spirits that are owed protections under law
If a detainee is beaten or worked to death in these gulags it is always an unavoidable accident for which ASPEN and WASP officials are never responsible for.
Fantasy land? He’s direct from Kafka’s Nightmare.
There is no communicating with him. Don't bother trying. He’s not a “program parent” he’s something weirder, possibly Lon Woodbury, He's Synanon’s greatest believer, that’s for sure.
My feeling is his name and ip should be posted, tracked down, and studied by criminal psychologists. Pys, Antigen, is this guy thewho, for sure? What's his IP?
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Most rational, intelligent people would never make the mistake of confusing psychologically abusive (and potentially fatal) practices of coercive thought reform with "potty training," but I guess ya can always try, eh?
Ursus, I never compared thought reform with potty training. Potty training doesn’t require re-education or brainwashing. Potty training is behavior modification. It is moving a child in a direction which is consistent with what is acceptable with society. It would probably be considered abusive if you did not potty train your child and send him/her to school in diapers.
He wasn't referring to you, he was responding to another guest.
Lets think for a moment here, plain and simple NONE of you parents whether you are for or against programs (or decided to pick and choose) REALLY know what thought reform in a program really is, and what its really like to be subjected to it. You don't know that what they use as "positive and negative reinforcement" is NOTHING like anything a mother would do to a child, it is only something that can be executed with a susceptible test populous, in an environment where the subject has absolutely no choice to comply for fear of being tormented. I really don't think parents have the slightest clue, all they see is the outcome not the process, and had they seen that process they might be singing a different song. I don't say this out of spite, but only because there are SO MANY components within the system of a program (that I wouldn't even know how to explain to you) that were just wrong on so many different levels. To say that murderers and rapists in prisons have it better is an understatement! The programs are the only place on earth that people, let alone impressionable children are systematically abused like this. To rationalize that this is for any reason okay is really just beyond me!
To be honest I have more respect for parents who admit they don't know SHIT about what goes on in the program then those who have convinced themselves they are even capable of fathoming the truth. Pam may be a dime a dozen, and luckily for her son she was able to figure out the jist of the scam before he wasted the remainder of his adolescence but even she, wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a good program and a program that's successful at keep up appearances.
The absolute saddest thing is that hundreds of girls and boys go through these seminars and live at these facilities and are taught to accept that they deserve to be mistreated because they were "bad kids", and yes, even the most vanilla program works that way. Their self esteem is being toyed with and they aren't given a fair chance to make up their own minds about their lives and their future. After a child has broken down, and submitted to the will of a demi-society that claims authority over them, they learn to rationalize what is wrong and they lose the will to question the outside world, and the courage to stand up for whats right. Kids need to learn to make their own decisions and although that may not be perfect news to you parents who choose to maintain control over your children until they are 30, but that is the way they learn to function in the real world. Your kids aren't robots, they're people and they deserve to be able to live through their adolescence no matter how many mistakes they make. LIFE teaches teens to mature, and parents are supposed to "help" their kids, not overpriced private prisons.
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Most rational, intelligent people would never make the mistake of confusing psychologically abusive (and potentially fatal) practices of coercive thought reform with "potty training," but I guess ya can always try, eh?
Ursus, I never compared thought reform with potty training. Potty training doesn’t require re-education or brainwashing. Potty training is behavior modification. It is moving a child in a direction which is consistent with what is acceptable with society. It would probably be considered abusive if you did not potty train your child and send him/her to school in diapers.
He wasn't referring to you, he was responding to another guest.
Lets think for a moment here, plain and simple NONE of you parents whether you are for or against programs (or decided to pick and choose) REALLY know what thought reform really is, and what its really like to be subjected to it. You don't know that what they use as "positive and negative reinforcement" is NOTHING like anything a mother would do to a child, it is only something that can be executed with a susceptible test populous, in an environment where the subject has absolutely no choice to comply for fear of being tormented. I really don't think parents have the slightest clue, all they see is the outcome not the process, and had they seen that process they might be singing a different song. I don't say this out of spite, but only because there are SO MANY components within the system of a program (that I wouldn't even know how to explain to you) that were just wrong on so many different levels. To say that murderers and rapists in prisons have it better is an understatement! The programs are the only place on earth that people, let alone impressionable children are systematically abused like this. To rationalize that this is for any reason okay is really just beyond me!
To be honest I have more respect for parents who admit they don't know SHIT about what goes on in the program then those who have convinced themselves they are even capable of fathoming the truth. Pam may be a dime a dozen, and luckily for her son she was able to figure out the jist of the scam before he wasted the remainder of his adolescence but even she, wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a good program and a program that's successful at keep up appearances.
The absolute saddest thing is that hundreds of girls and boys go through these seminars and live at these facilities and are taught to accept that they deserve to be mistreated because they were "bad kids", and yes, even the most vanilla program works that way. Their self esteem is being toyed with and they aren't given a fair chance to make up their own minds about their lives and their future. After a child has broken down, and submitted to the will of a demi-society that claims authority over them, they learn to rationalize what is wrong and they lose the will to question the outside world, and the courage to stand up for whats right. Kids need to learn to make their own decisions and although that may not be perfect news to you parents who choose to maintain control over your children until they are 30, but that is the way they learn to function in the real world. Your kids aren't robots, they're people and they deserve to be able to live through their adolescence no matter how many mistakes they make. LIFE teaches teens to mature, and parents are supposed to "help" their kids, not overpriced private prisons.
:tup: :tup: :hug:
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The absolute saddest thing is that hundreds of girls and boys go through these seminars and live at these facilities and are taught to accept that they deserve to be mistreated because they were "bad kids", and yes, even the most vanilla program works that way. Their self esteem is being toyed with and they aren't given a fair chance to make up their own minds about their lives and their future. After a child has broken down, and submitted to the will of a demi-society that claims authority over them, they learn to rationalize what is wrong and they lose the will to question the outside world, and the courage to stand up for whats right. Kids need to learn to make their own decisions and although that may not be perfect news to you parents who choose to maintain control over your children until they are 30, but that is the way they learn to function in the real world. Your kids aren't robots, they're people and they deserve to be able to live through their adolescence no matter how many mistakes they make. LIFE teaches teens to mature, and parents are supposed to "help" their kids, not overpriced private prisons
I am truly sorry you got mis treated. But that doesn’t mean everyone gets mis treated. Thats where I think people get hung up here, if one kid stubs his toe then every one stubs their toe. But that isn’t the way it is in the real world. Some kids really do well and the programs straighten them out and they live happy and healthy lives. Your personal experiences don’t reflect the experiences of the majority..... Sometimes I feel like I am in water world trying to convince you that land exists. You have read so many negative stories and have painted the picture of program parents over and over in your minds that you cannot see anything but black and white.
Many of the program parents are not seeking control over their kids. They just want them to survive and make it thru their teen years. Kids in programs make up a very small percentage of kids in America. Look at all the kids that just do fine without programs, many of the kids in programs have siblings that are going thru adolescence just fine. If parents wanted just control they would send all their kids to programs,but they dont. Look at the evidence, the common denominator is the child who is at risk, not the parents. In some cases you are right the parents sent their kids away for the wrong reason, but this is rare.
If it helps you to feel better or strike back you can call them gulags and prisons, tell yourselves that the parents and staff are all evil and that behaviour mod equates to thought reform. But the evidence speaks for itself and the majority of the kids come through the programs just fine and do extremely well. I understand from the feedback here that these conversations can be frustrating and believe me it is just as frustrating for me to read everyones views which seem crazy to me at times. But remember it is healthy to stir the pot a little and introduce some fresh ideas and people who are willing to challenge the majority group think here.
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Without replies, the troll dies.
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Without replies, the troll dies.
Honestly I'm sick of hearing about "thewho" and trolls, so far this poster, regardless of who they are and whether we agree with them has manged to uphold a diplomatic debate which I can appreciate. If you dont like it, ignore the thread or our posts and simply inject your opinion on the subject at hand. Don't tell me not to post, or "waste my time" I am not trying to change this persons mind, I am simply trying to understand their point of view and hope that he can understand mine. This is an issue that should be addressed regardless of who is having the conversation.
The key issue is that program parents and program survivors are on 2 completely different pages, and they tend to rationalize and seem to blindly ignore the signs and we tend to project our experience on the majority of programs and program parents. Maybe there is a middle ground that can be found here... just maybe.
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Without replies, the troll dies.
Honestly I'm sick of hearing about "thewho" and trolls, so far this poster, regardless of who they are and whether we agree with them has manged to uphold a diplomatic debate which I can appreciate. If you dont like it, ignore the thread or our posts and simply inject your opinion on the subject at hand. Don't tell me not to post, or "waste my time" I am not trying to change this persons mind, I am simply trying to understand their point of view and hope that he can understand mine. This is an issue that should be addressed regardless of who is having the conversation.
The key issue is that program parents and program survivors are on 2 completely different pages, and they tend to rationalize and seem to blindly ignore the signs and we tend to project our experience on the majority of programs and program parents. Maybe there is a middle ground that can be found here... just maybe.
But this isn't the ‘are all programs bad’ thread. This was a thread about the abuse of Katie Carter by her program parents Diane and Michael, of Dayton Ohio.
Why not start a new thread to discuss "are all programs bad" and the "mentality of fornits"?
Neil/who isn't diplomatic, its a (youth torturing) troll because it doesn't start discussions, it manipulates and ends discussions that make it (monetarily?) uncomfortable. It used to do this on every single string on fornits for the specific purpose of destroying specific discovery and highlighting and conversations; it’s a red herring technique.
Why its precense is tolerated i do not know.
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You can't underestimate the number of survivors looking for a surrogate parent to talk to, even if it is TheWho.
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Without replies, the troll dies.
The key issue is that program parents and program survivors are on 2 completely different pages, and they tend to rationalize and seem to blindly ignore the signs and we tend to project our experience on the majority of programs and program parents. Maybe there is a middle ground that can be found here... just maybe.
Femanon, i appreciate what you are trying to do,but it has never admitted even a program, CEDU or Elan or WWASP systematically tortures its prisoners. Its not even trying to discuss or change minds, its aim is only to consuse threads and end conversations. Trust me, I thought it was a program parent at one point. Its not. You'll see....
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I am truly sorry you got mis treated. But that doesn’t mean everyone gets mis treated. Thats where I think people get hung up here, if one kid stubs his toe then every one stubs their toe. But that isn’t the way it is in the real world. Some kids really do well and the programs straighten them out and they live happy and healthy lives. Your personal experiences don’t reflect the experiences of the majority..... Sometimes I feel like I am in water world trying to convince you that land exists. You have read so many negative stories and have painted the picture of program parents over and over in your minds that you cannot see anything but black and white.
Sorry to burst your bubble but that's not a fresh idea here, that's just about the same excuse we hear from every program parent. Had you said: the school that your child went to was not centered on a tough love system and did not practice thought reform techniques then maybe I would be able to understand why you don't hold the same opinions as me, but too many times have I heard EXACTLY what you said from program parents that put their kids in the same exact facility as I was in. I will admit that I have not personally experienced every program out there, so I've left the possibility open that programs that are not built on the same or similar system as those we know to be abusive , MIGHT be helpful, but to this day I haven't been given the name of even ONE program by a program parent that I couldn't prove from multiple first hand witnesses that there are abusive.
It seems that you assume because your daughter wasn't physically assaulted and doesn't have the mind to tell you what the program did to her was wrong, means everything was okay. Meaning that the programs, despite avoiding any kind of state regulation were able to create a completely new system void of any and all human rights violations. I'm sorry but that's highly unlikely. I must maintain that this entire industry that was built on a broken system is still operating in the same way because if they weren't they would not be considered a Behavior Modification Program. But just to let you know, kids "change" after they get out of abusive programs too, the success of the child doesn't trump evidence of abuse. Success after the program only suggests that your kid was willing to grow out of that teenage stage, and most definitely would have done so even if you didn't spend her college fund on a private prison.
I don't think the issue is that we are being unrealistic, I think where we end up seeing things differently is where we stand on what methods you can accept as "treatment" and what we recognize as psychological torment and human rights violations. These things are very serious in the eyes of the law, yet parents feel are necessary in order to keep their child controlled and that is where we can't see eye to eye because we would never justify abuse and false imprisonment for the sake of parental control. The reason we feel so strongly about this is because we remember what it feels like, granted you don't because you weren't in a program but I'm sure you remember being a teenager so try to sympathize with their feelings instead of always placing the blame of their past to justify your actions. We aren't talking about whether your kids deserved it or even genuinely needed help, we fight because what they are doing to the kids in these programs is just wrong on both a legal and moral level. It's not treatment, I don't know when you people will understand that you can't justify getting you child "help" if you aren't sending them to treatment. I understand you don't think that ALL programs cross that line but I can verify that the majority of them do, whether you are able to recognize that or not.
Let me ask you... what program did your daughter go to and how long has she been out?
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I don't understand how a few people discussing a off topic can stop other people from posting about the topic at hand....
I'm still waiting to hear from Katie and when I do this is where I will post, I wouldn't be in the least bit dentured against posting or reading something of significance simply because a thread has graduated to a more general subject.
As much as I'd like to say that I'm doing this to change the minds of every program parent out there, that's not entirely true, the truth is, the debate gets me impassioned and that's when I write my best arguments. I do plan to create a site that is geared toward parents considering and or have kids in programs and it helps for me to become familiar with "their side of the story" so that I can develop my counter arguments. At some point, everything I have written in my 5 years of speaking out, will most likely make it into a book so I guess I consider this my research.
And I must also admit, maybe I am looking for a surrogate mother to reason with as well, because oddly enough, everything this "troll" has said to us is exactly what my mom has said to me, yet every time we really try talking about it we both get so mad and hang up on each other.
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Okay guys, this ones a doozie, just heard back from katie and apparently the problem is MUCH MUCH worse than we thought. She didnt know about the blog and she is VERY upset.
Please read what she messaged me:
"ok. my name is katie, and before this email i didnt ever read the blog. after reading the first page i am pissed off. i cannot believe that they woudl talk about me like that and thye still do. i am 18 years old goddamnit! i am an adult. there is truth in his statements but what about my ppoint of view? what is my side of the story? did anyne even my own parent even ask me waht i felt? my mother emotionally and psycologiczally abused me, my paren divorced, i felt left out when she left. growing older i dealt with it the only way i coul. i feel as if i am betrayed because there is nothing of my opinion. i have so many things that i can say. i did my best to not kill myslef, and even now i am cutting again and i am smoking cigqarettes... its called fucking life. i dont like me, i dont like anything abiout me and diane, god, she doesnt help at all. she cause as many problems as i do. just yesterday my borther had his girlfirend over (who is my friend as well) and she called me "the third wheel" WTF???? why in the hell does she have to go and do that? reading the blog it brought me to tears i wanted to get it deleted, becuause the whole fucking world can read about me and give my parent sympathy about such a horrible child they have. for my whole life there the thiought, why cant i be more like... diane said in her blog '"she's HIS" daughter. well guess what Bitch, you are my fucking stepmother!!! you are the only fucking mother i have ever really had and you choose to talk about me as if i am the most horrible person in the world. she married my dad yes, but that means that i am her fucking daughter too. she sees my brothers as her sons so why am i any different to her. her own life is her problem but treating me lke that has no place it in. i have never said any of this crap to anyone... reading what she wrote about ME... what the hell am i supposed to think. sorry for the ranting i got off topic but reading that blog hurt me, deeply.
cross creek did help me. i loved my therapists and my firneds, i was never abused but thinking about it almost none of the bullshit they taught us really effects me in the real world. i talk of victims and accountability and people look at me like i am insane. who gives a fuck. i am a human being and i make mistakes evryone does. does that mean i am a lesser human being? does that mean i am such a horrible person i dont deserve respect? sometimes i wonder if my parent sent me to utah to get me out of their hair or save my life. they were happier with me not in their family........... how would they feel if i was dead. i am sure diane would fucking celebrate and my dad, i dont know his reaction. there not a day that goes by i dont blame myself for our financial situation, and my older brother doesnt miss an opportunity to remind me that the money could ahve been better used on other things besides the fucked up daughter they have. you know what? i am sick of the bullshit. sometimes i wonder if people were meant to have children and when they do they ask, what am i going to do with that? i used to be a daddy's girl... now i am just a fucking screw up."
I'm honestly in shock right now. I will be writing her back right now. This really makes me upset.
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What's the deal with program parents and blogging about their kids online? The teens living at home should start a blog about their parents, and tell the world about all of their problems, struggles and secrets- and see how they like it.
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jjust checkin..she knew you would post her response? That might upset her, if not :soapbox: :rasta: :shamrock:
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jjust checkin..she knew you would post her response? That might upset her, if not :soapbox: :rasta: :shamrock:
yes I asked her.
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just sent her a letter to her too. She's seems like such a sweet person. I mean, she likes twilight and vampires..she seems like a totally "typical" young person. More typical than I ever was. But, god, I guess she..I don't know..didn't want to go to school..lock her up!!
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It could make at really good book with the blog and her comments mixed together.
FemanonFatal2.0:
You have contact to her. Write her about this idea. So far we only have Comeback as a statement of the parent-child relationship during and after a program.
It would be nice if the media had a more balanced view of this situation. If she wants a ghost writer to help her, we could help her but someone with a better english grammar should make the final touch.
I believe that writing her side of the story blog-entry, would provide her some healing therapy too.
She has apparently a lot of problems right now and I guess that some of the siblings are hostile because regardless of the father acknowledge it or not, the program took their money and only provided warehousing for her.
If she gets it published she would have a something to start her life on too. Suggest her that. It will be hard work for her because it will take her to her darkest corners and their abusive "therapy" has taken her someplace where none want to go.
But I believe based on our other caseworkers continued work with people who are doing the exact same with their experience in other programs that she would find it rewarding in the end.
She can contact me by mail: oscar<a>secretprisonsforteens.dk if she is interested.
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Sorry to burst your bubble but that's not a fresh idea here, that's just about the same excuse we hear from every program parent.
There was no excuse written that I saw. Just feed back and some thoughts.
I will admit that I have not personally experienced every program out there, so I've left the possibility open that programs that are not built on the same or similar system as those we know to be abusive , MIGHT be helpful, but to this day I haven't been given the name of even ONE program by a program parent that I couldn't prove from multiple first hand witnesses that there are abusive.
I believe you. If I was abused in a public school system by a gym teacher in the showers or elsewhere I would probably feel the same way you do about schools that have gym classes. If I set up a web site I could probably get a few kids from virtually every school to say they were abused in one way or another, forced to throw balls at each other in an attempt to humiliate each other. Force the kids to choose sides in basketball leaving the short kids left last to be chosen. What does this do for self esteem? Kids being taken off school grounds and raped by their teachers. Others detained against their will for hours after school for minor infractions being forced to write " I will not throw erasers at the teacher" 1,000 times like some chinese repetative tortured thought reform. Some schools force the kids to wear uniforms and turn a blind eye to hazing. I may try to get all the schools shut down and blindly say if you have a gym program, detain kids or force them to wear uniforms without due process then the school is abusive and solicit testimonials from each school and then post the most damaging ones to support my believes. Even though millions of kids go through the school systems each year all I need is one or two solicited negative posts to support my views.
It seems that you assume because your daughter wasn't physically assaulted and doesn't have the mind to tell you what the program did to her was wrong, means everything was okay.
I think we all have to assume this. If your child comes home from school each day and tells you she had a good day then you may be inclined to believe her.
Meaning that the programs, despite avoiding any kind of state regulation were able to create a completely new system void of any and all human rights violations. I'm sorry but that's highly unlikely. I must maintain that this entire industry that was built on a broken system is still operating in the same way because if they weren't they would not be considered a Behavior Modification Program. But just to let you know, kids "change" after they get out of abusive programs too, the success of the child doesn't trump evidence of abuse. Success after the program only suggests that your kid was willing to grow out of that teenage stage, and most definitely would have done so even if you didn't spend her college fund on a private prison.
I believe that kids will continue to grow whether they attended an abusive program or a non abusive one. The child that attended an abusive program would have a lot more baggage and problems to overcome than the child who did not and would probably struggle a bit longer after graduation to fit back into society.
Why do people here think that Bahavior Mod is such a bad thing? It is part of our every day life.
I don't think the issue is that we are being unrealistic, I think where we end up seeing things differently is where we stand on what methods you can accept as "treatment" and what we recognize as psychological torment and human rights violations. These things are very serious in the eyes of the law, yet parents feel are necessary in order to keep their child controlled and that is where we can't see eye to eye because we would never justify abuse and false imprisonment for the sake of parental control.
I think if you spoke to any parent or program parent they would not want their child imprisoned or abused and if they chose to do nothing at all many of the kids would end up abused by society and or imprisoned. How could a parent justify refusing help to their own child and then watching that child descend into a life style that will eventually consume them?
The reason we feel so strongly about this is because we remember what it feels like, granted you don't because you weren't in a program but I'm sure you remember being a teenager so try to sympathize with their feelings instead of always placing the blame of their past to justify your actions.
I don’t feel it is always the child’s fault. Many times the problem is a family issue. Most parents don’t look back and try to justify their actions. Do you think the kids look back and try to justify their actions that may have lead to being placed in a program? I would say some do and some don’t.
We aren't talking about whether your kids deserved it or even genuinely needed help, we fight because what they are doing to the kids in these programs is just wrong on both a legal and moral level. It's not treatment, I don't know when you people will understand that you can't justify getting you child "help" if you aren't sending them to treatment. I understand you don't think that ALL programs cross that line but I can verify that the majority of them do, whether you are able to recognize that or not.
Let me ask you... what program did your daughter go to and how long has she been out?
If I mentioned the name of the program the masses would descend down upon me with negative posts right down to the color of the socks they had to wear lol. This thread would be so heavily trolled that this discussion would no longer be possible.
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The more time TheWho wastes on fornits making absurd arguments, the less time that person has to affect people negatively in real life. So fornits really does the world a favor in this regard.
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ok people, i have read the things you have written. this is katie. i am an 18 year old who struggles alot. thinking about it i am in an undeniable way afraid to do things after the program. for the first few months i was afraid to even look at or talk with boys. At the "program" we were seperated and told that it was bad for us to interact. i am still afraid of many things, such as the fact that in july i turn 19 and i will have to get an aprtment. i am scared so much. sometimes i wonder if there is an actual place for me in the world. i have made mistakes. throughout the program i learned things, i saw things, and yes I was physically restrained. i still remeber the staff joking about the isolation room as "happy land". i was in that room 6 times. The first few months were very difficult and were hard on me. i still hold alot of guilt over my head becuase of "wasting my parents money". Not only do my parents feel as if it was a waste of time and money, but they feel as if it could be better spent on our family or my older's brothers/ stepsisters college.
Right now, seeing my own words on the blog scares me. What if my parent see them? will there be al hell to pay? I am not afraid of saying what i feel... but i am afraid of what Diane will do. (OH! I have not caled her a bitch or any rude names in months by the way, i am trying to stay out of the line of fire...) :heartbreak: In all honesty i do love her. She is the only mother i have ever known and, she has really taken a risk to be in my life. i have not been the best step daughter... but i do love her. Even now, when i tell her this she ignores me and it breaks my heart... For my daddy, he is the best dad anyone could ask for... he has fought for me all if my life... he saved me from my biological mother, but he has led me into the relationship with Diane.
I will be posting comments of my opinions and story daily starting with this. If you wish i will do an autobiography fro those of you who want to watch out for the warnign signs. But please know this: I love my family. Even though it hurts me to say this i feel as if things would be better for them if i were not around ( In which i am reminded of quite often) for those of you who want to comment feel free to do so, but know that i will not tollerate abuse of any kind. I want people to know my thoughts or feelings, so tomorrow our journey thorugh my life will begin.
Thanks for reading.Please any comments or questions email me @ Kazzie2008@hotmail.com
(dont take advantage of this though.) :waaaa:
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Hi Katie!
I am happy to see you here!
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Welcome, Katie!
But please know this: I love my family.
Although I am sure that there are some truly evil parents out there, I usually prefer to focus my ire on programs. It is, after all, they who take advantage of parents' perceived desperation (most of the time it isn't even half as bad as they think it is), and who milk it for all that it's worth for their own financial gain and self-rationalization.
Glad to have you on board!
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Hi Katie Thank you so much for coming to the forum, I know it can be a little bit intimidating but you are very brave, and hopefully will lead to some healing.
To everyone, Please be nice, I was a bit apprehensive about leading Katie to this forum because its not exactly a support group, and considering her situation support is really what she needs. I hope that we can all be respectful when commenting on this thread.
To Neil, reading your last post, I'm just about done responding to you because its obvious you just don't get it. Programs are NOTHING like public schools and if I was assaulted in a gym bathroom in a public school I certainly wouldn't condemn all public schools. It comes down to the simple fact that you dont know what its like to live in a program, to be dragged through that system, and since you have such a wall built up around your opinion of the particular school your daughter went to its impossible for me to explain that to you. I think the best thing you can do at this point is tell us what school your daughter went to and we can find out if that school runs an abusive program or not. If it does, it will prove my point that brainwashing works and your a sucker, If not, I will be happy to admit that I am wrong and not all schools that practice tough love are abusive. But until there is evidence on the table there isn't much sense in going in circles with this discussion.
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We aren't talking about whether your kids deserved it or even genuinely needed help, we fight because what they are doing to the kids in these programs is just wrong on both a legal and moral level. It's not treatment, I don't know when you people will understand that you can't justify getting you child "help" if you aren't sending them to treatment. I understand you don't think that ALL programs cross that line but I can verify that the majority of them do, whether you are able to recognize that or not.
Let me ask you... what program did your daughter go to and how long has she been out?
If I mentioned the name of the program the masses would descend down upon me with negative posts right down to the color of the socks they had to wear lol. This thread would be so heavily trolled that this discussion would no longer be possible.
If you want some background on the Neil/who, read this thread..it's only 235 pages long. neil/who claims to have had a daughter at Academy at Swift River and SUWS and have a "fiduciary" connection to ASPEN education, captivity centers which confirmatively execute systematic torture and thought reform upon their detainees.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=16007 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=16007)
Many brIefly make the mistake of thinking its a "program parent" and try to communicate with it, only to find it's something far stranger
I believe you. If I was abused in a public school system by a gym teacher in the showers or elsewhere I would probably feel the same way you do about schools that have gym classes.?
No one here, abused in public school or not, has stated public schools are gulags. I was assaulted by a taxi driver. I do not feel the taxi industry needs to be shut down. The absurd conclusions you accuse us of drawing are not drawn.
If we lived in Bizarro World, where “public schools” had "escorts" who physically dragged people, 7-21 to isolated compound, where the abducted would be physically prevented from escape by a variety of torturous methods , were all run by an incestuous group of people with cultic backgrounds who all had a history of torturing, and who had legal leeway to implement torture and sexual abuse, all while making fraudulant claims of providing medical "help," then we’d want Bizzaro World “Public Schools” ended.
In this world, the violations of human rights outlined above occur only in what are titled “programs,” which is why you do NOT see lawsuit after lawsuit, criminal charge after criminal charge, and book after book detailing organized torture against the owners of the “public schools industry” or public school survivor groups accusing public schools of being cultic associations of organized torture.
But, you know that. The End.
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The more time TheWho wastes on fornits making absurd arguments, the less time that person has to affect people negatively in real life. So fornits really does the world a favor in this regard.
very funny
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To Neil, reading your last post, I'm just about done responding to you because its obvious you just don't get it. Programs are NOTHING like public schools and if I was assaulted in a gym bathroom in a public school I certainly wouldn't condemn all public schools.
They are a great deal alike, they house teens and hire people to oversee them. If a child is abused it doesn’t matter if it is a church or a school, daycare or a program. They will have a hard time trusting the place again and the child would probably have to be home schooled or tutored. I expect you would never want to go to a program again and I don’t blame you.
It comes down to the simple fact that you dont know what its like to live in a program, to be dragged through that system, and since you have such a wall built up around your opinion of the particular school your daughter went to its impossible for me to explain that to you.
You may be right, I think we both may have built walls up around us. But, I see myself as open minded. I have seen the success of programs and have read here about the failures. I have not been personally damaged by the system so I have the unique ability to see both sides and feel I can weigh the pros and cons without bias.
I think the best thing you can do at this point is tell us what school your daughter went to and we can find out if that school runs an abusive program or not. If it does, it will prove my point that brainwashing works and your a sucker, If not, I will be happy to admit that I am wrong and not all schools that practice tough love are abusive. But until there is evidence on the table there isn't much sense in going in circles with this discussion.
I don’t treat this discussion as trying to prove that I am right and you are wrong. I have benefitted from our dialog. Long after we are both gone there will still be people who care enough for the kids in this world to create special schools targeted for special needs. Parents who step out of the cookie cutter one fits all public school system and dare get their child help outside the publicly funded system will be criticized like program parents are today. But I believe parents will always seek out the best for their children regardless of the criticism because family members stick together and help one another and make enormous sacrifices both monetarily and emotionally to ensure each other’s safety. What you don’t understand is that parents just don’t give up on their children. There is a special bond that develops and until you have children of your own you may not understand it.
Naming a school isn’t going to make you prove your point, femanon. Doesnt make a difference what school I named you could find a post which shows it to be abusive. The same with your local public school. You could find a kid who was abused and ridiculed during gym class who got pummelled during dodge ball or forced to write repetitive sentences in an attempt to force them to conform if that was your aim. I do admit I am a little stubborn in my thinking.
I do thank you for your candor, femanon it was refreshing and unique for here, and I like how you stood up for yourself. I have learned a little more about both of us during our back and forth. I think it is good to end here as I believe Katie could use your focus and some support right now.
Neil
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Hello.
As promised I am at the beginning of my journey with you. For starters I want to begin by saying I am apprehensive of what I will have to remember and think about. I need your support not only to keep me moving forward, but to help me see myself as a person whose story is worth being told.
I am not going to start at the very beginning of my life, but rather later on when my problems fist started. You see, I don’t remember much, due to mental blockage. My mind has blocked out all of the times I spent with my mother, and even now I shiver with fear thinking of how my life was when she was in my life. My parents began the divorce when I was seven years old. I was forced into therapy to evaluate if there would be any emotional scarring. I remember the woman. She was like the fist grade teacher you never forget, you know the one… she made you feel like you were the poster child for cuteness. She had me draw pictures for her, while she talked to me. One day, she asked me who I wanted to live with. As a seven year old what do you expect? I told her “My daddy, because mommy can take care of herself.”
My older brother and I went to live with my Dad. My younger brothers went with my mom to live in New Mexico. And that is the starting line in which we begin. For 4 years I blamed myself for the divorce thinking it was my fault for the family to be split up… if only I was a better child, if only if only, if only. My dad constantly told me that it wasn’t my fault and that canned line “We both love you, but we don’t love each other anymore”. If they both loved me so much, why did my mom leave me? After a few years of holiday visitations my father fought for us in court. He was given full custody of my brothers and I, and for a while we were together. We missed our mother terribly, but our dad made up for it. He gave us everything he could. He was the mother, the father… he was our best friend.
As people grow older they get lonely. My father met Diane on a chat room for people who want to fix their marriages. Soon after the divorce my dad began dating her. I remember Miss Diane. Sweet, kind, funny… then one summer we went to visit our mother in New Mexico. During that summer my Dad married Diane. (My brothers and I were not involved in the ceremony which is kind of messed up if you ask me) For that year things were not much different, Diane would visit from Minnesota for a week, every month or so, then we got a new house and she moved in.
The first year went smoothly enough. There were adjustments to be made, but when families combine that is expected. Diane even took me on a girl’s weekend to Chicago, and I had the greatest time. All the while the relationship between my mother and me was growing cryptic. She would tell me horrible things about my father, how he had an affair, how I wasn’t worth the trouble of raising… etc. I believed her, she was my mother after all. I began to resent Diane, to hold a grudges. I was 12 years old. I didn’t know any better. My mother would say one thing, my dad and Diane would say another. I was lost in a loop of truth and deceit.
My dad’s time was divided between his wife and his kids. Immediately, I noticed the change in things. She became strict and different as if she was a warden coming into a new prison to find all the convicts allowed to leaving the facility for months at a time. I began to wonder if the sweet kind and funny person was an act. But my dad was in love with her, so I decided to let him be happy. (In my 11 year old mind I thought I was obligated to this still thinking I caused the divorce.)
I began to rebel against her, thinking that I would lose my dad. We both treated each other poorly. Soon it was a war zone in our house. I began to rebel in different ways I made friends with a girl who introduced me into cigarettes alcohol and cutting. That’s when it all went wrong.
Well. I don’t want to tell it all in one night would I?? LOL Thank you for reading my own meandering experience. I will write more tomorrow. Again any questions or comments you know where to go.
Kazzie2008@hotmail.com
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Hello.
As promised I am at the beginning of my journey with you. For starters I want to begin by saying I am apprehensive of what I will have to remember and think about. I need your support not only to keep me moving forward, but to help me see myself as a person whose story is worth being told.
I am not going to start at the very beginning of my life, but rather later on when my problems fist started. You see, I don’t remember much, due to mental blockage. My mind has blocked out all of the times I spent with my mother, and even now I shiver with fear thinking of how my life was when she was in my life. My parents began the divorce when I was seven years old. I was forced into therapy to evaluate if there would be any emotional scarring. I remember the woman. She was like the fist grade teacher you never forget, you know the one… she made you feel like you were the poster child for cuteness. She had me draw pictures for her, while she talked to me. One day, she asked me who I wanted to live with. As a seven year old what do you expect? I told her “My daddy, because mommy can take care of herself.”
My older brother and I went to live with my Dad. My younger brothers went with my mom to live in New Mexico. And that is the starting line in which we begin. For 4 years I blamed myself for the divorce thinking it was my fault for the family to be split up… if only I was a better child, if only if only, if only. My dad constantly told me that it wasn’t my fault and that canned line “We both love you, but we don’t love each other anymore”. If they both loved me so much, why did my mom leave me? After a few years of holiday visitations my father fought for us in court. He was given full custody of my brothers and I, and for a while we were together. We missed our mother terribly, but our dad made up for it. He gave us everything he could. He was the mother, the father… he was our best friend.
As people grow older they get lonely. My father met Diane on a chat room for people who want to fix their marriages. Soon after the divorce my dad began dating her. I remember Miss Diane. Sweet, kind, funny… then one summer we went to visit our mother in New Mexico. During that summer my Dad married Diane. (My brothers and I were not involved in the ceremony which is kind of messed up if you ask me) For that year things were not much different, Diane would visit from Minnesota for a week, every month or so, then we got a new house and she moved in.
The first year went smoothly enough. There were adjustments to be made, but when families combine that is expected. Diane even took me on a girl’s weekend to Chicago, and I had the greatest time. All the while the relationship between my mother and me was growing cryptic. She would tell me horrible things about my father, how he had an affair, how I wasn’t worth the trouble of raising… etc. I believed her, she was my mother after all. I began to resent Diane, to hold a grudges. I was 12 years old. I didn’t know any better. My mother would say one thing, my dad and Diane would say another. I was lost in a loop of truth and deceit.
My dad’s time was divided between his wife and his kids. Immediately, I noticed the change in things. She became strict and different as if she was a warden coming into a new prison to find all the convicts allowed to leaving the facility for months at a time. I began to wonder if the sweet kind and funny person was an act. But my dad was in love with her, so I decided to let him be happy. (In my 11 year old mind I thought I was obligated to this still thinking I caused the divorce.)
I began to rebel against her, thinking that I would lose my dad. We both treated each other poorly. Soon it was a war zone in our house. I began to rebel in different ways I made friends with a girl who introduced me into cigarettes alcohol and cutting. That’s when it all went wrong.
Well. I don’t want to tell it all in one night would I?? LOL Thank you for reading my own meandering experience. I will write more tomorrow. Again any questions or comments you know where to go.
Kazzie2008@hotmail.com
katies thoughts
-
Katie, do you want to continue you blog of sorts in this thread or in the dedicated thread "Katie's Story"? its up to you. In fact if you want to keep the information on this page available to readers all we have to do is link the thread, so even if people stop posting on it it will still be accessible via the other thread.
For now Ill respond here, and copy it over if you decide to start this in the other thread.
Thank you for sharing that, and I want you to know that I can really relate. I had a super strict step mom as well who was deathly afraid I would turn out like her loser drug addict brother. I know you didn't mention too much about the tension in the home, but I remember it well and understand how hard on you that must have been.
I hope you know that your story most definitely is worth telling, and I know that its hard to go back and access all these buried feelings but I hope you know that you are not only helping yourself heal, but you could very well help others to do the same. I hope you know that you were not a bad kid, and you didn't deserve to get sent away. It seems like you struggle with depression and you shouldn't carry any blame for that, you were born with it. As sad as it is, some of us just get dealt a shittier hand then the rest of the players in this game, and all you can do is work with what you've got. Your parents had the responsibility to help you through the hard times and give you the love you needed to grow up feeling worthy. The fact that your step mom felt it appropriate to judge, chastise and punish you all the time for normal teenage behavior is clearly an issue of bad parenting skills, and considering she isn't your parent makes it that much more inappropriate. I read some of the things she said about you, she wasn't worried about you as much as she resented you and judged every little thing you did. Do you know how happy most parents would be if their kid was just smoking cigarettes as a teen? I can understand parental concern, but I don't think she handled it correctly and in my opinion made your depression (not to mention the family relationship) much worse with all the confrontation and blame games. Do you feel as if she may have turned your family against you?... because that's what it seems like to me, and I also think her mind games have effected your self esteem.
At some point I would recommend mentally separating your feelings from anything she ever said or did to you. I personally do this by reminding myself that the problems with my step mother stemed from her issues, not mine. Not that I didn't have any problems, but I believe those are better handled with someone who loves me unconditionally. Basically, if she doesn't truly want to help me or she tends to go crazy then my problems are none of her business. My relationship with my dad and step-mom now is fine, as rocky as it was when I was a teen we have put all that behind us because they choose not to get involved in my problems. That doesn't mean I lie to them or don't ask for help if I need it, it means they simply realize their days of being "the punisher" are over and I am the one who builds my own moral compass. Oddly enough, I think I have done a much better job then they ever could, maybe they realize that, and someday your parents will too.
-
Oh my god, these sick people do referrals...
http://mcarter.parentshelpingteens.com/ (http://mcarter.parentshelpingteens.com/)
-
Hi katie,
Welcome to fornits...glad Femanon was able to make contact with you! Glad to have you here!
:peace:
-
This is Michael C Carter. Diane found this (I had read some of fornits years ago, and decided that I wasn't truly interested in it and all the bashing and flaming going on. I've spent the last two hours reading this thread, wrote down some random thoughts:
Wow! I only got to page two of this, and I felt I had to respond a bit here.
First, there were NO jumpsuits. NONE. When they girls were in orange - it was an orange t-shirt.
Not a jumpsuit. Same slacks, shoes, etc - just an orange t-shirt. As opposed to yellow (which designated those who were at risk or
threatening to injure themselves (i.e. cutters), and another one that was for those who had planned or attempted to run away.
Nor do I believe anyone was forced into these - it was simply the clothes they had to wear. When you only uniform is a t-shirt -
you wear it.
------
Also, one thing about Cross Creek is it is a state licensed treatment facility - with several therapist on staff at all times.
Treatment facilities are much more regulated than the ordinary schools.
A lot of people have mentioned the lack of due process - this was not a prison. As a few have stated, I am responsible for my
children until they turn 18. It was my belief that she was on the verge of complete self destruction. If you had actually gone
and read the BLOG - which many of you admit that you have not, then you would know that we spent a year in therapy and with Katie
going to short term facilities three times before being sent to the program. It wasn't until she had been kicked out of school and
I was out of options that I found this.
-----
Ok - then we get to page what - 5? Talking about last year when Katie broke some minor rules and lied about them. People call me evil
because I express the fact that I was frustrated. It is sad that men in todays society are not permitted to express ANY emotions -
I'm evil because I'm frustrated that she is lying and breaking the rules again.
Look at it this way. If you constantly lied to your boss about doing your job at work, if you were writing a novel at work instead
of doing your job - what response would there be? If you were caught stealing supplies, or surfing porn at work. It is not uncommon
for people to be fired for not obeying the rules - regardless of what the rules are. Period. One thing that was attempted to be
taught was that actions have consequences. People make their own choices - and if you choose not to obey the rule then you will suffer the
consequences.
Unless of course you are rich or a powerful politician (hey, if I don't pay my taxes I'm going to jail, not becoming treasury secretary).
But the rest of us live in the real world.
-----------
I also find it very interesting to see people posting and responding anonymously - it is real easy to hide where no one can see
you. I'd like to challenge all of you to be as open with your identity as mine has become.
I'd like all of the people who feel the need to criticize me put up their name and links to their pictures as well. It is easy to
sit back behind your pc and call me evil - I'm out there and being honest - where are you?
-------------
People are upset that I put up a referral page. Sorry if you don't like it. But you will be ecstatic to know that only 4 people
ever asked for information on the site, and to this date we did not get one referral. Nor did insurance pay for this, or any
donations. I'll be paying off the loans for close to 30 years - and the monthly payment is more than my mortgage. In an attempt
to help my daughter. Did it work - only time will tell. But she didn't end up in the hospital for sniffing glue and lysol like her
best friend pre-program did (who I heard actually od'd a few years back), though they were doing it together.
---------------
After that, somebody mentions the melt-downs - when Katie's older brother and I had to hold her down. This was pre-program, and those
incidents led her to go to a local hospital program - which lasted a whole week. This was during the period she was threatening her
brothers and step-mother - swinging at Diane and stopping just short of hitting her. Verbally abusive to everyone in the family. Her
older brother would not have any friends over because of her - it was amazing to find that once she was not in the home that her three
brothers actually did have friends. Katie was not, and will not, rule my home. Period.
----------------
At the bottom of page 7 - personal attacks against Diane because of her weight. Just because I'm fat doesn't mean I can't tell that others
aren't fat as well. Guess what - I don't really want my daughter to be fat. I don't want her to be over 300 lbs. But she now is.
In the program she was actually slowly loosing weight - which all her doctors had said she needed to do. She exercised, if not every day
then nearly so. Now I'm lucky if she ever gets off the couch. I can't force her - she is 18 now and makes her own decisions. But it
doesn't mean I have to like them.
-------------------
Page 8. LEAVE MY FATHER OUT OF THIS. Period. Again, I challenge these people creating new accounts to come clean with their identies.
But leave those not involved out of this. I am completely responsible for all my own decisions - those good and bad. I decided to send
here there - I take full responsibility. Do you anonymous posters think it was right - no. Too bad. Take some responsibiliy yourself
and come clean with your own identity.
-------------------
Page 10. Comments about us not trying other alternatives. These are the other alternatives we tried for a year prior to the program? The
therapy for her and the whole family? Getting her involved. Oh, she loved that one. The worse she acted the more attention she got - so
that I had to practically neglect her three brothers because everything at the time had to revolve around her. As a parent I have all of
my children to consider, not just one of them. I would have loved to find something that worked that was cheaper and easier - but I failed
to find that. Of course I should have just come on this forum and have all of the anonymous posters parent her for me, because you have
all the answers. As I said before, I take full responsibility for my actions and my mistakes. I'm not perfect like all the people
posting on here - sorry for that.
--------------------
Page 11. I love how quoting statistics (and we all know that 78.239% of statistics are made up right on the spot :-) makes the behavior
correct. Just because you can quote that 78% of kids cheat on tests DOES NOT MAKE IT RIGHT!!! Some things in life are shades of grey, but
others are not. Cheating on a test is never correct, is never right. Period.
Bottom of the page - gee - some open and honest opinions - what a nice change.
---------------------
Page 12 - someone mentions due process and having somebody do screening - admitting. Lets see - Katie had already been admitted to short
term programs run by local Hospitals three times in the year prior - and only stopped those because the insurance ran out. She would have
stayed (voluntarily) in the last one quite a bit longer had the insurance not stopped covering it after a total of 30 days. Unfortunately
hospitals cost even more than the program.
----------------------
Page 13 - I had to laugh when another anonymous poster is asking for the IP and name of someone else. If you aren't willing to reveal
your identity, then don't ask anyone else to. Me - I believe I should have the name, city, phone number etc. of EVERYONE critical of me
on this forum - because you felt the need to post mine.
--------------------
Page 14 - Katie's letter. Let me say that as a parent I chose to create the blog to help others. It was my experiences. Katie wants
to be hurt by everything and everybody - and in truth the blog is about Me, not really about her. It is what I went through. I don't have
her side because I am not her! I only know my own experiences.
Oh, and I don't know if we will discuss it or not, but Katie is perfectly welcome to share her thoughts / feelings. I just hope that
she takes responsibility for her words, and begins to learn to take responsibility for her actions and her life.
---------------------
As I create this account, Katie sees it over my shoulder and gets upset. Reading what I'm doing over my shoulder it at the very minimum quite rude.
She is mad because I don't have her side of the story - I'll read the rest of her thread later.
I've created a new email for this that people can email if they like - I don't want my normal one flamed. You can email me at mcarter.fornits@gmail.com. However I WILL NOT RESPOND to anonymous emails - since people have decided to post my name, Diane's phone numbers and a whole lot more information, then if you expect me to respond then I will expect the same - a minimum of your full name and location. Nor will I respond to flames. I will entertain open and honest discussion. I am limiting it to that account - period. Anything sent to other accounts, or posted on my personal blog, will not be responded to.
I don't know how often I'll check here - depends on how much of a beating I feel like receiving in any given day.
Michael C Carter
Father
-
the "people" defending you is one person--thewho, who claims to have a "fiduciary" interest in ASPEN education, and likes to mock sexual abuse victims and tell them they are sick for lying about such stuff
http://fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=21670 (http://fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=21670)
You might want to consider what it says about your position to have that sort of person "defending" it. Being responsible for someone until they are 18 does not = owning them until they are 18. By paying to have Katie incarcerated for three years, you not only abandoned your responsibilities but became the rankest sort of child molester and torturer imaginable—the type that does it in conjunction with an organization because he’s not only evil but too fucking cold and self interested to interest himself in the dirty work.
-
This is Michael C Carter. Diane found this (I had read some of fornits years ago, and decided that I wasn't truly interested in it and all the bashing and flaming going on. I've spent the last two hours reading this thread, wrote down some random thoughts:
Wow! I only got to page two of this, and I felt I had to respond a bit here.
First, there were NO jumpsuits. NONE. When they girls were in orange - it was an orange t-shirt.
Not a jumpsuit. Same slacks, shoes, etc - just an orange t-shirt. As opposed to yellow (which designated those who were at risk or
threatening to injure themselves (i.e. cutters), and another one that was for those who had planned or attempted to run away.
Nor do I believe anyone was forced into these - it was simply the clothes they had to wear. When you only uniform is a t-shirt -
you wear it.
------
Also, one thing about Cross Creek is it is a state licensed treatment facility - with several therapist on staff at all times.
Treatment facilities are much more regulated than the ordinary schools.
A lot of people have mentioned the lack of due process - this was not a prison. As a few have stated, I am responsible for my
children until they turn 18. It was my belief that she was on the verge of complete self destruction. If you had actually gone
and read the BLOG - which many of you admit that you have not, then you would know that we spent a year in therapy and with Katie
going to short term facilities three times before being sent to the program. It wasn't until she had been kicked out of school and
I was out of options that I found this.
-----
Ok - then we get to page what - 5? Talking about last year when Katie broke some minor rules and lied about them. People call me evil
because I express the fact that I was frustrated. It is sad that men in todays society are not permitted to express ANY emotions -
I'm evil because I'm frustrated that she is lying and breaking the rules again.
Look at it this way. If you constantly lied to your boss about doing your job at work, if you were writing a novel at work instead
of doing your job - what response would there be? If you were caught stealing supplies, or surfing porn at work. It is not uncommon
for people to be fired for not obeying the rules - regardless of what the rules are. Period. One thing that was attempted to be
taught was that actions have consequences. People make their own choices - and if you choose not to obey the rule then you will suffer the
consequences.
Unless of course you are rich or a powerful politician (hey, if I don't pay my taxes I'm going to jail, not becoming treasury secretary).
But the rest of us live in the real world.
-----------
I also find it very interesting to see people posting and responding anonymously - it is real easy to hide where no one can see
you. I'd like to challenge all of you to be as open with your identity as mine has become.
I'd like all of the people who feel the need to criticize me put up their name and links to their pictures as well. It is easy to
sit back behind your pc and call me evil - I'm out there and being honest - where are you?
-------------
People are upset that I put up a referral page. Sorry if you don't like it. But you will be ecstatic to know that only 4 people
ever asked for information on the site, and to this date we did not get one referral. Nor did insurance pay for this, or any
donations. I'll be paying off the loans for close to 30 years - and the monthly payment is more than my mortgage. In an attempt
to help my daughter. Did it work - only time will tell. But she didn't end up in the hospital for sniffing glue and lysol like her
best friend pre-program did (who I heard actually od'd a few years back), though they were doing it together.
---------------
After that, somebody mentions the melt-downs - when Katie's older brother and I had to hold her down. This was pre-program, and those
incidents led her to go to a local hospital program - which lasted a whole week. This was during the period she was threatening her
brothers and step-mother - swinging at Diane and stopping just short of hitting her. Verbally abusive to everyone in the family. Her
older brother would not have any friends over because of her - it was amazing to find that once she was not in the home that her three
brothers actually did have friends. Katie was not, and will not, rule my home. Period.
----------------
At the bottom of page 7 - personal attacks against Diane because of her weight. Just because I'm fat doesn't mean I can't tell that others
aren't fat as well. Guess what - I don't really want my daughter to be fat. I don't want her to be over 300 lbs. But she now is.
In the program she was actually slowly loosing weight - which all her doctors had said she needed to do. She exercised, if not every day
then nearly so. Now I'm lucky if she ever gets off the couch. I can't force her - she is 18 now and makes her own decisions. But it
doesn't mean I have to like them.
-------------------
Page 8. LEAVE MY FATHER OUT OF THIS. Period. Again, I challenge these people creating new accounts to come clean with their identies.
But leave those not involved out of this. I am completely responsible for all my own decisions - those good and bad. I decided to send
here there - I take full responsibility. Do you anonymous posters think it was right - no. Too bad. Take some responsibiliy yourself
and come clean with your own identity.
-------------------
Page 10. Comments about us not trying other alternatives. These are the other alternatives we tried for a year prior to the program? The
therapy for her and the whole family? Getting her involved. Oh, she loved that one. The worse she acted the more attention she got - so
that I had to practically neglect her three brothers because everything at the time had to revolve around her. As a parent I have all of
my children to consider, not just one of them. I would have loved to find something that worked that was cheaper and easier - but I failed
to find that. Of course I should have just come on this forum and have all of the anonymous posters parent her for me, because you have
all the answers. As I said before, I take full responsibility for my actions and my mistakes. I'm not perfect like all the people
posting on here - sorry for that.
--------------------
Page 11. I love how quoting statistics (and we all know that 78.239% of statistics are made up right on the spot :-) makes the behavior
correct. Just because you can quote that 78% of kids cheat on tests DOES NOT MAKE IT RIGHT!!! Some things in life are shades of grey, but
others are not. Cheating on a test is never correct, is never right. Period.
Bottom of the page - gee - some open and honest opinions - what a nice change.
---------------------
Page 12 - someone mentions due process and having somebody do screening - admitting. Lets see - Katie had already been admitted to short
term programs run by local Hospitals three times in the year prior - and only stopped those because the insurance ran out. She would have
stayed (voluntarily) in the last one quite a bit longer had the insurance not stopped covering it after a total of 30 days. Unfortunately
hospitals cost even more than the program.
----------------------
Page 13 - I had to laugh when another anonymous poster is asking for the IP and name of someone else. If you aren't willing to reveal
your identity, then don't ask anyone else to. Me - I believe I should have the name, city, phone number etc. of EVERYONE critical of me
on this forum - because you felt the need to post mine.
--------------------
Page 14 - Katie's letter. Let me say that as a parent I chose to create the blog to help others. It was my experiences. Katie wants
to be hurt by everything and everybody - and in truth the blog is about Me, not really about her. It is what I went through. I don't have
her side because I am not her! I only know my own experiences.
Oh, and I don't know if we will discuss it or not, but Katie is perfectly welcome to share her thoughts / feelings. I just hope that
she takes responsibility for her words, and begins to learn to take responsibility for her actions and her life.
---------------------
As I create this account, Katie sees it over my shoulder and gets upset. Reading what I'm doing over my shoulder it at the very minimum quite rude.
She is mad because I don't have her side of the story - I'll read the rest of her thread later.
I've created a new email for this that people can email if they like - I don't want my normal one flamed. You can email me at mcarter.fornits@gmail.com. However I WILL NOT RESPOND to anonymous emails - since people have decided to post my name, Diane's phone numbers and a whole lot more information, then if you expect me to respond then I will expect the same - a minimum of your full name and location. Nor will I respond to flames. I will entertain open and honest discussion. I am limiting it to that account - period. Anything sent to other accounts, or posted on my personal blog, will not be responded to.
I don't know how often I'll check here - depends on how much of a beating I feel like receiving in any given day.
Michael C Carter
Father
quoted for the sad
-
Nicely said, welcome Michael. We hear many stories from the childs point of view. Its good to hear the parents view which is rare here. I hope you can stick around.
-
^^ the who
viewtopic.php?p=255174#255174 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=255174#255174)
He thinks young people getting tortured is funny.
-
Oh my god, these sick people do referrals...
http://mcarter.parentshelpingteens.com/ (http://mcarter.parentshelpingteens.com/)
For the record, their story on the referral page is essentially a distilled version of what is on Michael Carter's blog. From the link Yael provided:
The honeymoon was over. We had been married for almost a year, and the relationship between my new wife and my daughter was rapidly deteriorating. At first we didn't notice much - it was summer, and she was out with friends all the time. And some money seemed to be missing from my wife's purse. And my other three sons would also find money missing. Then just before school started we get the call.
She just needed a ride home. From the hospital. Because her best friend was there. They had been huffing lysol, and she passed out and wouldn't wake up. She did later that night and was released, but it was an immediate wake up call for us.
The first step was a local teen treatment facility. She was admitted, stayed there a week or so, then did the outpatient program for a couple of weeks, then was back at school. But it wasn't enough, and a few weeks later she was back, with a threatened suicide. This time they pushed her through a bit faster, as the insurance (limited to 30 days inpatient mental health coverage - LIFETIME) was running out. We finally got her into a regular psychiatrist after this. It was simply amazing how you can have a crisis, and not a single doctor has room for a new patient.
We tried several different tasks, but nothing helped. A third time she ended up in the hospital after taking extra doses of her medicine. More therapy, and more blowups. Finally the school called. She was spending so much time either in the nurses office or the counselors office, every day, that she was completely disruptive to the school. With three weeks to the end of the school year, we were told if she wouldn't stay in class she couldn't come back.
At wits end, her biological mother offered to try for the summer. At first it seemed to go well, but once school started it deteriorated at a metoric rate - until I get a call on Saturday that she is flying back on Sunday.
At wit's end, we found TeenHelp.us, and they guided our admission process to Cross Creek Manor for my daughter. They gave us a list of escort services and helped arrange for a student loan. During a time of crisis when we had no where else to turn, they helped out. My daughter was escorted to Cross Creek Manor on 9/23/05. I truly believe that had we not done this, then she would be on a rapid path to jail or death.[/list]
@Michael: I'm glad, for your sake, that you did not get any referrals out of that. In time, I hope you may see it that way too.
I strongly suspect that the vast majority of WWASP parents who make such sites are in your shoes, i.e., go through all of the trouble and self-exposure involved in making this kind of site, and then get virtually no mileage out of it.
Can you not see that this is just WWASP suckering you into providing advertising for them? It is only the rabid diehards and ideologues who market this crap aggressively who might make any money out of this, and since it isn't really money per se, but "tuition credit," all of it is really just for Cross Creek's benefit!
-
The worse she acted the more attention she got
So you consider her cutting her wrists "attention seeking" behavior? You think what she did was out of some selfish desire for attention? Pardon me French, but that's fucked up of you to think, much less say on a public forum. While some might take your words to heart as reflecting on your daughter, personally I think they say more about you.
Btw: name's Michael Crawford
..and just so you know, there is hardly any regulation at all over private programs for teens. You might want to read a book on this such as "Help at any cost" by Maia Szalavitz.
-
The worse she acted the more attention she got
So you consider her cutting her wrists "attention seeking" behavior?
Btw: name's Michael Crawford
..and just so you know, there is hardly any regulation at all over private programs for teens. You might want to read a book on this such as "Help at any cost" by Maia Szalavitz.
there is 0% regulation. 1,000s of wwasp survivors filed criminal chrages with no adequate response, then contacted re George Miller, who sent the A.G. a formal letter requesting investigation into WWASP. His answer? 'The govt can't investigate wwasp for the torture of minors because WWASP is a private company'
http://www.nospank.net/ashcroft.htm (http://www.nospank.net/ashcroft.htm)
-
The thought that either of you is a real person is so wholly sickening that I want to call epic megatroll on this entire thread. I can't, because this exceeds the epic megatroll levels of any of Muldoon's epic megatrolls. (if this IS you, Muldoon: KUDOS!! 13/10 LEGENDARY! A bit more and you will become a transcendent, deific troll to be worshipped by all lower trolls.)
Seriously, is this Idiocracy made flesh? Did both father and daughter crawl out of an abandoned Wal-Mart festering with garbage? Did you come swimming out of Rush Limbaugh's toilet like an fish that thought it evolved but didn't? All my beliefs about genetics have been vindicated in the worst way possible. Your troubles are self-parodying and self-inflicted, and the fact that you were stupid enough to post your real name is just icing on the cake.
I have a million "die painfully" variants, but none of them even begin to approach the sheer level of utmost contempt I have for you. I cannot even hold all of it to the forefront of my mind at any one time. Once I think I have finally experienced all of the pure, unmitigated disgust that reading your posts creates, I find more of it lurking behind, like an endless river of shit.
What the hell are you doing here, Michael? Did God transport what passes for your soul into that underequipped body purely for the fun of it? Did Hell fill up and they are now sending their spirits into this realm, to spawn more hell-things and (of course) torture them as is the norm in that infernal place?
If you were in the least human you would have... no. I'm not here to give basic humanity lessons to programmies (pigs, singing, etc).
Mr. Carter, kill yourself! .38 to the head, swan dive off a tall building, walk into lava, noose through a car window and a brick on the accelerator, something creative, whatever! Just.. leave! And take that desperate thing you've made of your daughter with you, or at the very least have the mercy to force her hysterectomy, because whatever mutations have happened to your DNA at some point in the past should not be passed on any further!
-
Most "programs" spoken of on fornits, because they claim to be "schools" or "emotional growth" get around requirements for licensing and regulation as treatment facilities...
PBS montana did a good documentary on this:
http://www.montanapbs.org/WhosWatchingTheKids/ (http://www.montanapbs.org/WhosWatchingTheKids/)
That one is about Spring Creek Lodge in Montana, another WWASP school, but the same applies in Utah, which has the worst reputation of any state in this area.
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M. Carter - you've taken a tiger by the tail and given it a yank. But thats good. It might go a long way to waking you up.
You made a terrible decision when you put your daughter in a WWASP program. I understand fully the kind of stress and frustration and fear that brought about this terrible decision; but it was a terrible decision none-the-less. Indeed, as our Bruin friend suggest, you should get down on your knees and thank God you aren't responsible for any referrals.
I too am a WWASP program parent. I know how it is done; how they worked on you; how the program set you up and realed you in; how they gained and kept control of your thinking and actions with regard to your daughter and the program. I have a reading list to suggest.
Help at Any Cost (how the troubled teen industry cons parents and hurts kids) by Maia Szalavitz
Cults in Our Midst, by Margret Singer
Both deal directly with WWASP and/or the LGAT WWASP forces upon the students and parents.
You may also want to look at a few other web sites.
http://www.turleylaw.com (http://www.turleylaw.com)
On the left hand sidebar you will see a link to recent filings. This will take you to a PDF copy of the case Turley has filed against WWASP and all related entities. Also on the left you will see the on-line form to fill out if your interested in having your case reviewed. This may by of special interest to Kattie.
http://www.isaccorp.org (http://www.isaccorp.org)
ISAC has a great deal of information on WWASP. http://www.isaccorp.org/wwasps.asp (http://www.isaccorp.org/wwasps.asp)
http://www.wwaspsinfo.net (http://www.wwaspsinfo.net)
A collection of newspaper articles about the wwasp programs.
http://www.tbfight.com (http://www.tbfight.com)
they have a collection of video clips you can access, as well as a lot of commentary.
http://www.paulareeves.com (http://www.paulareeves.com)
A repentant WWASP program parent's site.
http://www.nospank.net/boot.htm#n-i04 (http://www.nospank.net/boot.htm#n-i04)
Jordan Riak's site. This page has some info about Congressman Millers efforts to stop the abuse.
http://teenadvocatesusa.homestead.com/tribute1.html (http://teenadvocatesusa.homestead.com/tribute1.html)
A memorial list of kids that have died in programs.
http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/des ... t-pg.shtml (http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/desperate/site-desperate/day2/2front-pg.shtml)
A great seris of articles about the WWASP program. I hope it will open.
(If any of you cyber geeks know how to copy this site you should)
Thats enough to get you started.
If you want to "converse" with me After you have done the above reccomended research, feel free to contact me through this site.
Oh - let me second this: PBS montana did a good documentary on this:
http://www.montanapbs.org/WhosWatchingTheKids/ (http://www.montanapbs.org/WhosWatchingTheKids/)
You gotta watch this PBS documentary.
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I'd like to challenge all of you to be as open with your identity as mine has become.
I'd like all of the people who feel the need to criticize me put up their name and links to their pictures as well.
People who do their best to remain anonymous on the internet are prudent, and wise. People like you, who post their life stories and family information, full names, and pictures for the entire world to see, are naive.. at best.
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M. Carter - you've taken a tiger by the tail and given it a yank. But thats good. It might go a long way to waking you up.
You made a terrible decision when you put your daughter in a WWASP program. I understand fully the kind of stress and frustration and fear that brought about this terrible decision; but it was a terrible decision none-the-less. Indeed, as our Bruin friend suggest, you should get down on your knees and thank God you aren't responsible for any referrals.
I too am a WWASP program parent. I know how it is done; how they worked on you; how the program set you up and realed you in; how they gained and kept control of your thinking and actions with regard to your daughter and the program. I have a reading list to suggest.
Help at Any Cost (how the troubled teen industry cons parents and hurts kids) by Maia Szalavitz
Cults in Our Midst, by Margret Singer
Both deal directly with WWASP and/or the LGAT WWASP forces upon the students and parents.
You may also want to look at a few other web sites.
http://www.turleylaw.com (http://www.turleylaw.com)
On the left hand sidebar you will see a link to recent filings. This will take you to a PDF copy of the case Turley has filed against WWASP and all related entities. Also on the left you will see the on-line form to fill out if your interested in having your case reviewed. This may by of special interest to Kattie.
http://www.isaccorp.org (http://www.isaccorp.org)
ISAC has a great deal of information on WWASP. http://www.isaccorp.org/wwasps.asp (http://www.isaccorp.org/wwasps.asp)
http://www.wwaspsinfo.net (http://www.wwaspsinfo.net)
A collection of newspaper articles about the wwasp programs.
http://www.tbfight.com (http://www.tbfight.com)
they have a collection of video clips you can access, as well as a lot of commentary.
http://www.paulareeves.com (http://www.paulareeves.com)
A repentant WWASP program parent's site.
http://www.nospank.net/boot.htm#n-i04 (http://www.nospank.net/boot.htm#n-i04)
Jordan Riak's site. This page has some info about Congressman Millers efforts to stop the abuse.
http://teenadvocatesusa.homestead.com/tribute1.html (http://teenadvocatesusa.homestead.com/tribute1.html)
A memorial list of kids that have died in programs.
http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/des ... t-pg.shtml (http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/desperate/site-desperate/day2/2front-pg.shtml)
A great seris of articles about the WWASP program. I hope it will open.
(If any of you cyber geeks know how to copy this site you should)
Thats enough to get you started.
If you want to "converse" with me After you have done the above reccomended research, feel free to contact me through this site.
Oh - let me second this: PBS montana did a good documentary on this:
http://www.montanapbs.org/WhosWatchingTheKids/ (http://www.montanapbs.org/WhosWatchingTheKids/)
You gotta watch this PBS documentary.
thank you for this post, buzzkill.
katie, ignore any meaness you get hear on this thread..just inexcusable to have any of that aimed at you.
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Btw: name's Michael Crawford
..and just so you know, there is hardly any regulation at all over private programs for teens. You might want to read a book on this such as "Help at any cost" by Maia Szalavitz.
Thanks Michael. Yes, I've read the book. Not what I would call an open or balanced account of anything. In fact, I have yet to see
anyone write anything that tried to be balanced - they have all started with an agenda and tried to prove it. The most interesting
part of the book is that of the very few programs she talked about, Cross Creek came out basically without a problem. She didn't like
it, but couldn't condemn it (aside from the fact that they wouldn't meet with her).
Guest - I name you coward - and beyond that refuse to acknowledge anything you respond with (nor the insults you throw) until you come
forward, reveal yourself, and quit hiding behind the internet.
Buzzkill - oops, another anonymous name pushing a cause. Come forward if you truly want to be heard.
People saying that it is prudent to remain hidden on the internet - WHILE ATTACKING OTHERS - are cowards. Period.
If you choose to attack me - then reveal yourself, don't hide. In the US Courts - everyone has a right to confront their accuser. People
here are attacking me and hiding. No charges have been brought against me, nor will any be, because I have not broken any laws, and
while many people do not agree with the decisions I have made ( every person's right - but then these are anonymous beings out there, not
people - I acknowledge no rights to anyone without a name!) they are my decisions.
As I stated before, I doubt I'll check this very often - because it does not seem that many people here wish to actually discuss anything.
They instead want to make hidden attacks against me - and I refuse to give them that power.
So group up, welcome to the real world, and once you quit hiding behind your keyboard then we can talk like people.
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"You guys are all standing up there clean and dry! Come down here in the mud with me and say that!"
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA :twofinger: Yeaaaahhh.. I'm thinkin'... NO.
"with an agenda"
What, do they make you fuckgoblins in a mass production facility or something? Is there not one of you with a single original thought in your head? You sound exactly like.. well damn near every other programmie on Fornits.
Did you seriously think talking points were going to work here?!
"these are anonymous beings out there, not people"
...
......
BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA AHAHAHAHAHAHAH HAHAHAHAHA HAAAAAAAHAHAHAHA
IF YOU ONLY KNEW!!
You go and torture your daughter, continue to make a blog in which you gloat about how you treat her like shit, come onto FORNITS of all places and effectively BRAG about it, and then- AND THEN!- proceed to talk about anonymous beings? I don't think anyone here will actually grant your death wish physically, but I've never seen it expressed so cleanly. At least one other Anonymous has expressed an interest in ruining your fucking life and I don't think he/she/it is going to back down now. And you're cooperating! "HI EVERYBODY MY NAME IS MICHAEL CARTER AND I SENT MY DAUGHTER TO A WWASP SHITHOLE" and you expect respect for that?!
Oh.. oh man. You are one dumb, dumb son of a bitch.
Are you congenitally disabled from knowing the difference between love and hate, hope and fear, joy and rage? Is THAT what is wrong with you?
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The books available here are carefully screened. There are books available by Pulitzer prized authors who wrote on the subject. One in particular who spent 16 months inside a program following a group of kids through from beginning to end and gives the reader a candid look at the children’s daily lives. I can send you off some reading, although it is after the fact now so it may not be as interesting.
As far as the negative posts go. Like myself you are a program parent and will not be received here very well by some extreme posters. What I have become very good at is quickly screening post for content prior to reading them and ignoring the abusive posts. It allows me to cut thru the crap and focus on the valuable posts. Don’t let them get to you, Michael.
Your blog is very helpful to other parents who are struggling with similar family issues. Thank you for taking the time to posts as often as you did. I am sure you help others with it.
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Buzzkill - oops, another anonymous name pushing a cause. Come forward if you truly want to be heard.
I'm not exactly anonymous aroun' here, Mr Carter. Most in these parts know me well. Better than I like, in some cases.
As for you - I don't really care if you "hear" me or not. After all - Why should I waste a minute of my time on the likes of you? Your daughter is out now - and she has found the validation she so badly needs - she knows she is not alone in her perception of reality - she can now access a far greater understanding of what was done to her (and you, if she cares) as well as how to find healing. So, I've no need or interest in pounding my head against your brick wall.
That said, maybe some day a glimmer of truth will filter through your programming and you'll want to talk (or write) another program parent who understands what you've experienced. If so, I'll be available.
As for your critique of Help at Any Cost - you say it wasn't balanced? That is nothing more then the program crap and pablum they fed you. That is the line the trained you to take to keep you from thinking. Help at Any Cost deals with the realities found in these private, for profit, "teen help" programs. Maia Szalavitz has provided the well documented reality - not the whit-washed spewing of the brain washed Legions of Faithful - which you call "balance".
As for you taking comfort Cross Creek is somehow a cut above - you need to keep in mind CC is a WWASP program. A WWASP program is a WWASP program. They ALL follow the same Program. Cross Creek just charges more for the same worthless education, neglect, psychological and physical abuse.
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Buzzkill - oops, another anonymous name pushing a cause. Come forward if you truly want to be heard.
I'm not exactly anonymous aroun' here, Mr Carter. Most in these parts know me well. Better than I like, in some cases.
As for you - I don't really care if you "hear" me or not. After all - Why should I waste a minute of my time on the likes of you? Your daughter is out now - and she has found the validation she so badly needs - she knows she is not alone in her perception of reality - she can now access a far greater understanding of what was done to her (and you, if she cares) as well as how to find healing. So, I've no need or interest in pounding my head against your brick wall.
That said, maybe some day a glimmer of truth will filter through your programming and you'll want to talk (or write) another program parent who understands what you've experienced. If so, I'll be available.
As for your critique of Help at Any Cost - you say it wasn't balanced? That is nothing more then the program crap and pablum they fed you. That is the line the trained you to take to keep you from thinking. Help at Any Cost deals with the realities found in these private, for profit, "teen help" programs. Maia Szalavitz has provided the well documented reality - not the whit-washed spewing of the brain washed Legions of Faithful - which you call "balance".
As for you taking comfort Cross Creek is somehow a cut above - you need to keep in mind CC is a WWASP program. A WWASP program is a WWASP program. They ALL follow the same Program. Cross Creek just charges more for the same worthless education, neglect, psychological and physical abuse.
Buzzkill, have you lived what you spew here? Do you have, or have had a problem child? Walk a mile in Mr. Carters shoes for one day and you may change your tune.
Mr. Carter, you spoke of other children. How are they? Are they emotional vampires as well? Are they needy children that suck every ounce of energy from you also? Sorry, a friend of mine has a child that sounds a lot like your Katie. All she can do it hope and pray that the child makes it to adulthood and moves out. No amount of therapy, talking, crying, pleading, yelling does any good. She doesn't have the means to put her in a program, but I think if she did, she would.
My guess is your other children are well adjusted and doing fine in school and life. It seems almost every family has one problem child and there isn't anything that you can do. If they make it to adulthood, they become whiny needy adults that never have long lasting friendships because they just plain wear people out.
Good luck. She's 18, has she graduated high school? If she has what is she still doing there? Show her the door.
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Buzzkill - oops, another anonymous name pushing a cause. Come forward if you truly want to be heard.
LOL. You're talking to a genuine wwasp parent there. Pretty rude if you ask me considering how polite she was to you. Perhaps if you were less defensive and more polite (like your daughter) people wouldn't be attacking you so much. I find it amazing in contrast to how polite your daughter's response was to harsh treatment.
Listen... When you're attacked, you have two options:
1. escalate the conflict
or
2. diffuse the conflict
The result is 90% up to you. Your response here is almost as omnidirectionally venomous as many of the guests!
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It's funny how this clown of a parent is asking us to all post our names. I think I'll choose to remain anonymous for the time being. If this was my daughter I wouldn't let her play games with me. I'd show her who is in charge, the old fashion way. If you give kids an inch these days, they take a mile. Programs are okay for children who have mild to moderate issues, but severe emotional and behavior issues require severe intervention. Some people here say it's abusive, I think it's needed. I'm not going to outline what I did to my daughter exactly, but let's just say it turned her attitude around very quickly.
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It's funny how this clown of a parent is asking us to all post our names. I think I'll choose to remain anonymous for the time being. If this was my daughter I wouldn't let her play games with me. I'd show her who is in charge, the old fashion way. If you give kids an inch these days, they take a mile. Programs are okay for children who have mild to moderate issues, but severe emotional and behavior issues require severe intervention. Some people here say it's abusive, I think it's needed. I'm not going to outline what I did to my daughter exactly, but let's just say it turned her attitude around very quickly.
Seems my named got hijacked and running a havoc on me.
NeilW
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Micheal, why don't you contact the girl, below. She is a survivor of CC and uses her full name.
You can't discount this testimony of abuse..being that everything she accounts is confirmed by your experience of the program..
Like kelly, you weren't allowed to talk to Katie until Cross Creek deemed her "reformed" enough for that "privlege." Which was how many months, Micheal?
Like Kelly, Katie was not allowed to see anyone in her family for months until Cross Creek deemed her "reformed" enough for that "privelege."Which was how many months, Micheal? Like Kelly, Katie wasn't allowed to contact people on the outside world for as long as her stay at WWASP. So for three years Katie was denied any contact with the world at large...These violations are medically classified as psychological torture and abuse.
Also, realize that physically forcing a kid (and yes, physically forcing, how do you think they force them into those t-shirts if they refuse, Micheal? Well, the same way you forced Katie into the Cross Creek Torture Chamber)to wear ANY SORT OF CLOTHING that symbolozes their lesserness and designates that they are to by sexually, physically and psychologically abused because they deserve it is PSYCHOLOGICAL torture. Forcing "cutters or those in danger of hurting themselves to wear yellow t-shirts" is also psychological abuse.
If you don't beleive me, about the medical classifications of the Cross Creek violations you have admitted to, call the head of your local psychiatric hospital and see what she says when you describe the violations that you have described to us: the imprisonment, the disconnection from the outside world, the debasing outfits.
http://www.heal-online.org/crosscreek.htm (http://www.heal-online.org/crosscreek.htm)
Kelly Adams
Houston, TX
kcadams1980@yahoo.com
What can possibly be said or written about an experience so damaging it irrevocably altered the course or my life ?It's not an easy task for me to tell a sensual, chronicled account of my 18 months of incarceration at Cross Creek Manor in Southern Utah. I use the word "incarceration," because that is what it was - package the process in whatever manipulations you wish, but the reality is that we were locked up. If you remember nothing else, remember this: The proprietors of WWASP and other similar Behavior Modification "Schools" are master manipulators.
I was woken up in the middle of the night by 3 strangers. I was told to get out of bed and get dressed. One stranger followed me to the bathroom and watched while I changed. I was extremely disoriented - I'm not sure I realized I was awake - so I didn't fight my "kidnappers." I was instructed to get into a strange car. I got in the car without "incident," and heard the doors lock me in. I began to get very scared and I started asking my kidnappers, where they were taking me. No one would tell me. I guess I was beginning to raise my voice (I was feeling a bit hysterical), and that's when I was informed without a shred of sympathy if I gave them "any trouble" I would be put in handcuffs or otherwise physically restrained.
they told me I was going to a nice school for girls like me. I believed that I was going to some type of 90-day rehab, I would go back home, and my parents would love me again.
When we pulled up to Cross creek manor, I didn't think it looked so bad My kidnappers escorted me through the doors where 100 or so pairs of eyes all staring at me greeted me as if I was some sort of carnival freak show. All the girls were gathered out in the central foyer area for the nightly "Manor meeting." I was wary of all those girls in sweat pants and slippers who looked like a bunch of robots. I was taken to a room with a couple of “high-phase” girls who did my “intake.” I pleaded and insisted I didn't belong there, and they just started laughing. One of the girls told me, patronizingly, "Yeah, none of us belong here either."
Shortly afterwards I was strip-searched and "nix-ed" (de-loused) by a very scary , very large woman - I was unbelievably mortified. The other girls petrified me - when they spoke, it sounded to me like someone was playing a tape recorder, and they had absolutely no sympathy for me.
My first day in "Group" with Ron (he was the director of Cross Creek at the time) he asked me why I was there. All the girls were sitting around in a circle staring at me like I was a murderer, so I said "because my parents sent me here," COMPLETELY without a hint of attitude (I wasn't yet accustomed to the program double-speak). This sent Ron into a tirade - he yelled that I was a drug addict and ruining my family's lives, etc., etc. After a lengthy barrage of aggressive, mean-spirited "feedback" from the other girls in the group, I sat down, shaken and unable to process what had jhappened.
After I had spent about two weeks in Orientation (OR) Group with Ron, I joined my "home" group with the intimidating therapist at the helm, Garth. Garth was a very large man, which he used to his advantage to create a aggressive and imposing persona. Even before Cross Creek, men easily intimidated me, but being under Garth's "tutelage" worsened my fears.
Here is where things began to get really messy. In my 18 months at Cross Creek, there were so many harmful and traumatizing incidences that occurred - it would be impossible for me to recount every one. With that in mind, I will try instead to paint a general picture that will illustrate the kind of experience that I had.
Unlike many of the girls at CCM, I was never "restrained," but I witnessed this incredibly disturbing spectacle too many times to count. I was too paralyzed with fear to ever consider doing anything that I thought might cause me to be "taken down" by staff. I remember watching girls being taken down that were simply arguing with a staff - not physically endangering themselves or others - and they would be dragged, literally, kicking and screaming downstairs and into ISO (the 12 ft., locked "isolation" rooms). I also remember seeing a girl sitting in ISO who had cut herself and smeared blood all over her face and arms.
There were other girls who I saw with broken noses and injured arms/shoulders that were put into makeshift "slings" that consisted only of an Ace bandage. I knew several girls who had sustained physical injuries as a result of being taken down - i.e., broken noses, dislocated shoulders, torn ligaments, etc.
There were plenty of girls who I saw sitting in ISO for days, weeks, and even months at a time.
From my first day at CCM, I was told (and screamed at) that I was a worthless person, a disappointment to my family, a hopeless drug addict, a bitch and slut, a waste of space, a horrible human being and whatever other disparaging remarks the staff and other girls could muster. When I first arrived at CCM, I wasn't addicted to drugs however, I, like many other girls, was coerced into proclaiming/believing that I was hopelessly addicted to drugs. It was made very obvious that if I did not affirm the program's assessment of me that I would never advance past level one, so I played along (at first), and eventually began to internalize and believe everything that they said.
The infamous T.A.S.K.S. seminars & group "processes" were especially hurtful. One of my "issues" that I had to deal with at Cross Creek was childhood sexual abuse at 11 years old, and.
During one of the Focus "processes," (which I have been sworn to secrecy never to tell about) I was physically held down by four other Cross Creek girls (high phase girls who were seminar staff) while a fifth girl screamed into my face that "HE'S ON TOP OF YOU AGAIN!!! AREN'T YOU GOING TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT?? ARE YOU JUST GOING TO LET HIM DO IT TO YOU AGAIN?? WHAT KIND OF SLUT ARE YOU??"
I was crying and screaming so hard that I could barely see - I kicked and thrashed as hard as I could, but the four other girls just kept pinning me down to the floor, and I was unable to get out from under them.
There was another "process" that Garth facilitated, during which we had to write our own tombstones (the idea was for us to experience that we had died due to our "behavior"). After we had all written them, Garth and a few high phase girls from our group went around the room and screamed into our faces anything hurtful that they could manage to make us feel like worthless and horrible human beings.
When it was my turn, Garth approached me calmly and told me, coldly & without emotion, that my grandfather (my mother's father, whom I loved very much) was dead. My grandfather had emphysema and was repeatedly in and out of the Emergency Room, so this was hardly a stretch. Garth and the other girls shouted inches away from my face that my grandfather died knowing that I was a worthless bitch, a drug addict, and that I had ruined my family. They told me that he died knowing what a horrible person I was. By this point I was sobbing uncontrollably and finding it difficult to remain standing, so one of the high phase girls was holding me up for the continued barrage of abuse. After they finished with me, Garth and the other girls moved on to their next victim - and the scene continued on, as it had with me.
The next day, Garth called me into his office and told me that he was "mistaken" about my grandfather, and that he hadn't really died. I sobbed from relief that he was still living. l do not believe that Garth made an innocent "mistake." he purposefully used my grandfather's illness to traumatize me during a process. it worked.
I was never one of the girls routinely taken down, but it still took me months to advance in the program. Let me explain - although the program cronies would say like to say otherwise, unless you cry in group and painting a very melodramatic picture of your "issues," you will not advance, and you will not go home (which is where we ALL wanted to be).
I had a hard time expressing emotion -especially when put on the spot in-group. Thus, my inability to "be real," (translation: cry) held me on the low levels for a good seven months.
As I stated earlier, I was always very bright. My intelligence, apparently, was something to be ashamed of. I was routinely punished and chastised in-group for being "better than," and being "in my head". I was specifically reprimanded in-group for using "big words". This was all brought on because I was trying to help some of the other girls with their schoolwork, which was, apparently, a bad thing. After being "confronted" about my "intelligence issue," (yes, they actually called it that) I remember trying to dumb myself down in order to not incur the group's criticism.
WWSP "school" system is, at best, laughable. I was a very good student. At Cross Creek (or "Browning Academy" as WWASP likes to refer to the fictional "school" associated with their programs), I was given a remedial level textbook for each respective class and instructed to complete the chapter exercises and a chapter test. This was the extent of our "education," and it was a mockery of my intellectual ability. I learned absolutely nothing my "senior year" in "high school"
Eventually, I advanced to level three. But let me first let you know that I wasn't allowed to speak to my parents on the phone until I had been there for four months, the first time I saw my parents was after seven months, and the first time I saw my two brothers was after nine or ten months.
I was not allowed to communicate with anyone from the outside world besides my parents - not friends, family or anyone besides my parents & brothers.
After I began to advance in the program, I became one of its most vocal supporters. I was notorious for giving "hardcore" feedback to new girls, and "not taking any crap," from anyone not subscribing to the program's mantras. I became a bloodthirsty Pitt Bull - anxiously awaiting the opportunity to tear another girl down, the way that I had been torn down before. I'm sure that I probably caused a lot of girl's pain, and this is something that I feel intensely remorseful for to this day.
After I had been at CCM for 10 months or so, I was on level five and able to take an off-grounds pass with my family. I missed my family so much by that point that I thought I might break in two. The pass really broke down a lot of the brainwashing, and I eventually reached a point where I felt I would literally go insane if I had to remain in the program.
Basically, I cracked - one night I spent three hours pacing around my room trying to figure out how I was possibly going to complete the program without losing my mind. by then, I was 18, and was able to walk out of the program if wanted to - however, my parents had made it clear that they would not let me come home if I left Cross Creek without completing the program.
My "exit plan" was pretty similar to other kids in WWASP programs - if I decided to leave after I turned 18, I would get $10 in my pocket and a bus ticket to Denver (not Houston, my native city), and my parents would not accept me back in their house.
So, back to that night when I lost it - I eventually decided, after a couple of hours of pacing, that I had to leave the program, despite the fact that I would probably be homeless.
I went to the head staff and told her I wanted to leave. She attempted to change my mind for an hour or so, but I wouldn't be swayed. Then my parents were called. We had a gut-wrenching phone conversation during which my mother said "goodbye" - at that moment she believed that she was talking to me for the last time. After my parents couldn't get me to change my mind, my 17 year-old brother, Cory, was put on the phone. I remember him sobbing and pleading with me not to leave the program, because he "didn't want me to die." I cried my eyes out during all of this, but still, my parents and I held firm. after a few hours of this, I spoke to my case manager, and she told me that I could still change my mind. I was petrified of being abandoned in a foreign city (not to mention the fact that I had no way of contacting any of my other family members, since it was forbidden to record any phone numbers), so I acquiesced, and remained at Cross Creek.
After this incident, I was ostracized and forced to "regain trust" from my group members.. If I had been under 18, I would have been dropped down to level one, but due to my age, I was allowed to remain on probationary status at level five. After a couple of weeks of groveling and enduring numerous group sessions during which I was the object of ridicule and criticism, I eventually convinced Garth and the rest of the high phase girls that I was "ready to work."
And so, I was cemented into the system -I was completely brainwashed into thinking the program had saved my life and that I would be dead if my parents had never sent me there (the same robotic mantra of all brainwashed WWASP kids). I became a cruel and ruthless high phase girl - like the ones who had hurt me when I was new at CCM, and I extolled the virtues of the program that had caused irrevocable damage to my soul.
The rest of my incarceration at Cross Creek was fairly smooth, and I graduated two months before my19th birthday. Afterwards, I returned to Houston to live with my parents for a couple of months before being accepted to the University of Texas - Arlington
I entered college a completely conflicted, damaged, neurotic, depressed and anxious person - with the next few years ahead of me to experience levels of depravity that I never came close to prior to my incarceration at CCM. I don't feel comfortable getting into all those details now, but suffice it to say, that the program DIDN'T work. To this day, my parents still do not believe me when I try to tell them about what went on at CCM. The fact that they take the program's side over mine - their own daughter - is something that I will probably feel and carry with me for the rest of my life.
Please Contact Kelly Adams for any questions for comments at the email above.
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Look first we were told here that they were stripped and forced to wear orange jump suits. Then we find out you were lying. The facts came out and they wore different colored t-shirts. Now you are trying to make us believe that wearing t-shirts is abusive. Why not give it a rest and let Katie and her family tell their story. I am not buying your bull anymore, you are trying to find abuse where it doesnt exist. We had a poster here called CCMgirl98 or something and she didnt find cross creek abusive either.
Lets here what Katie has to say.
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Look first we were told here that they were stripped and forced to wear orange jump suits. Then we find out you were lying. The facts came out and they wore different colored t-shirts. Now you are trying to make us believe that wearing t-shirts is abusive. Why not give it a rest and let Katie and her family tell their story. I am not buying your bull anymore, you are trying to find abuse where it doesnt exist. We had a poster here called CCMgirl98 or something and she didnt find cross creek abusive either.
Lets here what Katie has to say.
Who, responding to you is akin to crawling in a sewer, and I shouldn’t need to spell this out, but in his blog, MC said Katie was forced to wear orange jumpsuits or "scrubs." He has since amended that to say that Cross Creek forced detainees to wear orange "t-shirts" if they are "bad"(essentially) and "yellow t shirts" if they are self injuring, which we have accepted.
Please, don't buy "my" "bull." Email the head of your local psychiatric hospital and ask her if they would classify physically forcing a patient in medical confinement to wear any sort of garb, including t-shirt, that publicly establishes to all the patients and staff that he is a "self injurer" or "bad" as psychological torture or abuse.
It quite extraordinary that you are trying to assert otherwise, but than as you mock survivors of sexual abuse and spend hours a day here to support ASPEN I should not be shocked
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Color coding for patient risk factors has been going on for years indicating dietary restrictions, fall risks, allergies, suicide risk, DNR etc.. Hospitals have been using color coding for years as visual communication tools. Medications are now being color coded also because of the successes being seen on the patient level.
What is wrong with you people? If a child took their own life everyone would be screaming “Why weren’t they regulated and forced to adopt the policies that hospitals use?” This isn’t abuse, people, it is responsible management of the youth they are in charge to protect. Why is everything twisted around to be abusive here? What’s the point? Is there such little evidence of abuse within these places that you have to start fabricating definitions?
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Color coding for patient risk factors has been going on for years indicating dietary restrictions, fall risks, allergies, suicide risk, DNR etc.. Hospitals have been using color coding for years as visual communication tools. Medications are now being color coded also because of the successes being seen on the patient level.
LOL
Are you implying hospitals force patients to wear colored scrubs establishing they are "self injuring" risks, or "bad"(undeserving of the right to urinate or bathe without being “watched” or speak to the outside world because they are too “manipulative”)?
You live in fantasy. And your ridiculous declarations won’t make them real.
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Btw: name's Michael Crawford
..and just so you know, there is hardly any regulation at all over private programs for teens. You might want to read a book on this such as "Help at any cost" by Maia Szalavitz.
Thanks Michael. Yes, I've read the book. Not what I would call an open or balanced account of anything. In fact, I have yet to see
anyone write anything that tried to be balanced - they have all started with an agenda and tried to prove it. The most interesting
part of the book is that of the very few programs she talked about, Cross Creek came out basically without a problem. She didn't like
it, but couldn't condemn it (aside from the fact that they wouldn't meet with her).
Guest - I name you coward - and beyond that refuse to acknowledge anything you respond with (nor the insults you throw) until you come
forward, reveal yourself, and quit hiding behind the internet.
Buzzkill - oops, another anonymous name pushing a cause. Come forward if you truly want to be heard.
People saying that it is prudent to remain hidden on the internet - WHILE ATTACKING OTHERS - are cowards. Period.
If you choose to attack me - then reveal yourself, don't hide. In the US Courts - everyone has a right to confront their accuser. People
here are attacking me and hiding. No charges have been brought against me, nor will any be, because I have not broken any laws, and
while many people do not agree with the decisions I have made ( every person's right - but then these are anonymous beings out there, not
people - I acknowledge no rights to anyone without a name!) they are my decisions.
As I stated before, I doubt I'll check this very often - because it does not seem that many people here wish to actually discuss anything.
They instead want to make hidden attacks against me - and I refuse to give them that power.
So group up, welcome to the real world, and once you quit hiding behind your keyboard then we can talk like people.
Regarding the anonymity thing for a second, although some of the bickering does come across as if it were Internet Tough Guy action, there is a real fear from survivors associated with revealing their identities that has nothing to do with cowardice. A lot of us, because of our experiences, are incredibly paranoid. When I first found these boards, I lurked for a long time and promised myself I would never post, then I finally started posting as a guest, but did not register. Why? I feared for the possibility, however remote, that there was a chance someone here might have known me back then, and might figure out who I was.
What your daughter is doing right now is remarkably brave. Especially since she came out of a program so recently.
As for now, I have no issue with people knowing who I am, or who I was then. The current picture in my avatar of the rather demented looking gent brandishing a bottle of manischevitz is indeed myself (happy passover, btw.) However, I do not post my name simply because prospective employers DO google names, and my laid-off animator self is currently looking for employment. Being sent to one of these places is a stigma. Period. I will never ever be proud of it.
However, if you would like to know more, I would be more than happy to discuss things with you via private message or email. I am not a WWASPS grad myself, but a CEDU one, (the grandaddy of them all) and my placement story is similar in some ways to your daughter's. (Living with father and stepmother before placement, and returned to living with them after... which was uncomfortable and tense, to say the least.)
While I understand survivors' anger towards other program parents, I do not share it. I think probably the strongest emotion I feel regarding that is frustration. For the most part, (there are exceptions) the parents are also victims, and their very real and very normal concern for their child has been taken advantage of by the industry. Whether you agree with this or not, at this point, is not something I wish to debate. Just know that I have read a good portion of your blog, (I started at the beginning) and I experience what I normally do when I read such accounts: sorrow. Not just for Katie, but for the family. It seems now that things are on the mend, which makes me happy. However, the pathos expressed in your blog is difficult to simply read with indifference. There has been much hurt, which has been only exacerbated by the program. I am sure that you can agree that when Katie returned home, things had gotten worse? I hope that you are able to see that this is not simply an issue of a defect in her character, and certainly more than what was done to her in the program. The family cohesion has been compromised, as was mine.
It's been 20 years for me, and I feel that my relationship with my own folks is relatively functional. However, it is most certainly different than it was prior, regardless of how much tension there was because of the fact that I was an unruly teen who was up to stuff that my parents didn't fully comprehend. There has been damage, especially between my father and myself. I'm sure I love him, but I am unable to connect with that. We won't talk for months and neither of us will think anything of it. Not because of any argument, but rather because we have nothing to say to each other. It's like dead air. This situation, while on the surface, is tolerable, simply because I am so used to it, bothers the hell out of me as well, because I feel nothing. We are strangers. Comparing that to the connection I had with him before, when I was given a choice with which parent to live with, I chose him, since I had wanted to be his kid again ever since the divorce and all we had was visitation.
Ironically enough, one of the pet issues while I attended CEDU was my relationship with my father. The amount of energy directed towards that was disproportionate to everything else, sans the gay issue. (homophobia in the 80s rivals present day, i assure you). I came to lionize him and think of him as my hero, (something initiated by the program and willingly embraced by my brainwashed self.) One would think that when I resurfaced into the real world, our connection would be even tighter.
It was the opposite. It had been completely severed. I daresay I hated him, and at the time, it never even occurred to me that the program might have been responsible. I continued to believe in CEDU and what it "taught" me for a good two to three years after getting out. One thing I did know, however, was that I could no longer stand being around him or my stepmother for very long before reacting violently (verbally) for even the slightest transgression of etiquette on his part. He can still really push those buttons and hit those nerves to this day, and although arguments such as that are rare, when they happen, and after I inevitably hang up on him, I always ask myself "Where on god's green earth did that come from? What the hell is wrong with me? Why do I still let him get to me that way?" He *does* say unreasonable things, mind you. The rare times that I have brought up how much it bothers me that our relationship is pretty much nonexistent, he tells me it is all my fault, and that if he is guilty of anything, it is being an enabler. (verbatim) Now, regardless of the relationship, the odds that any dysfunction is entirely, 100% the fault of only one of the parties is virtually nonexistent, because it is a relationship between more than one person, so to hear this, from a man who is a lawyer... well, it hurts.
I moved out of my father's house after my freshman year of college and found a sublet with a six dollar an hour job. Aside from a christmas break visit the following year, I have never gone back to visit either parent, even overnight. They travel to see me about once a year, which is nice, but I wouldn't want any more than that. I just only recently visited (for about twenty minutes) their new house in san antonio, and while it was beautiful and I still appreciate seeing them both, I couldn't wait to get the hell out of there. I felt like I was going to break out into hives.
The good news is, my relationship with my mother, and her side of the family, is much more solid.
I do hope you read this. Especially because I feel that dialogue with program parents is probably one of the most important things to me on this forum. (Although I have tangled in the past, and I still talk trash quite frequently on here, but about matters of much less importance, and always in jest, and rarely with parents, unless I am unaware that they are.) Regardless of whether we ever agree, I feel that the communication is important, because a lot of times you will hear things that you may need to hear regarding what kinds of things happen in these places. Things that you may never hear from Katie. (I refuse to talk to my parents about specifics regarding my experience at CEDU. It is too much.) In addition, hearing parent's accounts, such as your blog, is equally significant to me. (Although I do laugh at parent testimony that are on referral sites, because the context is extremely distasteful, as opposed to something such as your blog.)
I do want to say (and I mentioned it in Katie's blog, but you stated you were not going to return there) that if you *are* doing WWASPS referrals, I implore you with every fiber of my being to please please stop. That is blood money.
Anyway, if you want to get in touch with me, please feel free to PM me. I no longer have my email function, but I can give you my address via a PM.
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Color coding for patient risk factors has been going on for years indicating dietary restrictions, fall risks, allergies, suicide risk, DNR etc.. Hospitals have been using color coding for years as visual communication tools. Medications are now being color coded also because of the successes being seen on the patient level.
LOL
Are you implying hospitals force patients to wear colored scrubs establishing they are "self injuring" risks, or "bad"(undeserving of the right to urinate or bathe without being “watched” or speak to the outside world because they are too “manipulative”)?
You live in fantasy. And your ridiculous declarations won’t make them real.
Actually, I have to admit, Color coding is being used in most hospitals today. Hospic uses it to indicate DNR patients, local hospitals and psychiatric hospitals are starting to use it also. Cross creek may be ahead of the pack on this one. I wouldnt jump to calling it abusive.
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Color coding for patient risk factors has been going on for years indicating dietary restrictions, fall risks, allergies, suicide risk, DNR etc.. Hospitals have been using color coding for years as visual communication tools. Medications are now being color coded also because of the successes being seen on the patient level.
LOL
Are you implying hospitals force patients to wear colored scrubs establishing they are "self injuring" risks, or "bad"(undeserving of the right to urinate or bathe without being “watched” or speak to the outside world because they are too “manipulative”)?
You live in fantasy. And your ridiculous declarations won’t make them real.
Actually, I have to admit, Color coding is being used in most hospitals today. Hospic uses it to indicate DNR patients, local hospitals and psychiatric hospitals are starting to use it also. Cross creek may be ahead of the pack on this one. I wouldnt jump to calling it abusive.
This flight of the imagination is similar to your last one where you mentioned a fabulous "new lawsuit option" where parents can sue their kids for not "working their program" as "they approach retirement."
Where is the link confirming that new lawsuit option I asked you for?
Please provide me a link which establishes ANY hospital is color-coding people according to how crazy or bad they are, who.
We're waiting… And YOU may not call that psychological abuse but medically, that is how such violations are classified. And no legitimate medical instruction would participate in such an atrocity
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Those who post on this forum believe anything and everything is abusive. They even think being forced to do gym class in public school is abusive. I think it's time to bring back the paddle in public schools, because it's got totally out of control with kids manipulating their family and school officials. Parents today are too weak willed to properly deal with a troubled teen, and that is why they seek help. I tried everything with my daughter, even the paddle, and nothing worked. I had no choice but to seek outside help. Because of this, I am made out to be some sort of bad guy on this forum. If parents had the freedom to do what programs do to kids, we wouldn't need outside help. It's time to loosen government regulation and laws regarding what a family member can do to another, and then programs wouldn't be needed as much, at least by people like me.
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What does your daughter think about her experience in treatment and your parenting style, NeilW? And what does she think about your obsessive ranting on fornits? I'd be willing to bet that you don't even have a daughter, or any kids for that matter.
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Those who post on this forum believe anything and everything is abusive. They even think being forced to do gym class in public school is abusive. I think it's time to bring back the paddle in public schools, because it's got totally out of control with kids manipulating their family and school officials. Parents today are too weak willed to properly deal with a troubled teen, and that is why they seek help. I tried everything with my daughter, even the paddle, and nothing worked. I had no choice but to seek outside help. Because of this, I am made out to be some sort of bad guy on this forum. If parents had the freedom to do what programs do to kids, we wouldn't need outside help. It's time to loosen government regulation and laws regarding what a family member can do to another, and then programs wouldn't be needed as much, at least by people like me.
retarded troll is retarded
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Why is everything twisted around to be abusive here? What’s the point? Is there such little evidence of abuse within these places that you have to start fabricating definitions?
You've turned the problem on its head. What WWASP (and other abusive programs) do is take the tactics and methods and practices that are used by legitimate hospitals and care facilities in appropriate ways, that benefit the patients, and twist them into actions and methods that inflict humiliation and pain. The pain and humiliation is required to achieve the breakdown necessary to coercive persuasion. They use the fact professional and legitimate facilities sometimes use a color code and restraint and isolation as a shield which they can use to hide what they are actually doing.
For example: Restraint in a WWASP program is a very different thing from restraint in a legitimate care facility. When a parent hears restraint may be used, they think they know what that means. They have no idea that what WWASP means is the kid will be thrown to the floor with enough force to break teeth and jaws in some cases; they will have their joints ground into the surface of the floor - as well as their chin; they will have their joints twisted into extreme positions which will frequently cause dislocations. They will scream in pain and beg for this to stop while those "restraining" them laugh at them. No one pictures anything remotely like that when told by the WWASP sales staff or family rep that their child may be restrained. Nor can they imagine this will occur if the kid so much as looks out a window or is overheard saying they wish they could go home. You'd assume a kid would have to be dangerously out of control to be restrained. In a WWASP program this assumption is way wrong.
And when you hear Isolation, you think of a room where a patient is left to gain control of their overwrought emotions in a safe quite place. You imagine it might last an hour or two. WWASP uses a number of terms for their version of isolation - but what it is in a WWASP program is a place where the teen must maintain a stress position, and silence, for up to 12 hours a day; for days and weeks and even months at a time. They are fed very little; They are not allow rest room breaks and often are forced to urinate and even defecate on themselves; They are not allow to shift from their assigned positions. If they do they are restrained.
Peer review is another good example. Peer review is used by some legitimate group therapist and when used appropriately, with professional guidence, for positive reinforcement, or constructive criticism it can be helpful. But what WWASP does is turn the kids into vicious, verbal attack dogs who focus entirely upon the humiliation and degradation of whatever poor soul they are "reviewing". This erodes then destroys any tendency towards kindness or decency in the attack dogs and any joy and hope and confidence from the victim. It is terribly harmful for all concerned.
All of this is designed to create the fear and anxiety required to program the kid. That's why this kind of abuse is so systemic in these teen warehouse type facilities. They must inflict physical and mental abuse for the program to "work".
As for it "working" - It sometimes produces a kind of programmed stupor that can pass for improvement, but this seldom last. Most of the kids seem to come out and fall into behaviors far worse than what sent them there. They are not helped, and instead come out with their problems exasperated by Post Traumatic Stress. Its nothing less than tragic.
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What does your daughter think about her experience in treatment and your parenting style, NeilW? And what does she think about your obsessive ranting on fornits? I'd be willing to bet that you don't even have a daughter, or any kids for that matter.
That's not neil. Someone is spoofing him.
Time to get an account, neil! :seg:
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Good idea! It seems like some troll has nothing better to do than pretend to be me, I'm flattered to be so important!
I would suggest ignoring anybody else using my name that isn't signed in. The little rascals here want nothing more than to silence my point of view.
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I think it's time to bring back the paddle in public schools, because it's got totally out of control with kids manipulating their family and school officials.
Yeah... right?? Cause the 12-16 year olds hold all the power in our society. They've got decades of life experience and learning, earning power, moral authority and credibility that us old farts just haven't got. They can pressure us to do damned near anything without question or challenge. Many people even dismiss obvious abuse resulting in death as just an unfortunate accident blameable entirely on the adult for being non-compliant.....
Oh wait! Sorry, sorry, sorry, I forgot, it's the other way around. Whew! Slipped into another world there for a minute! You should have seen the sky, though! The color was just.... indescribable!
Seriously, not that kids should hold all the power in any society, but don't try and kid yourself that they do. They don't have the savvy, experience or social leverage to apply anywhere near the pressure that an offhand choice on the part of any of possibly hundreds of adults in their lives as we can to them. Laying the blame on the obviously less powerful party.... well that would be as cowardly as, say, to sin by silence when one should protest.
Peace
Honestly
Ginger McNulty
P.S.
I agree very strongly with TAC's sentiments above. I wish I could connect on any meaningful level with my mother or any but one of my 5 brothers and sisters. That one brother is the only one who might piss on me if I were on fire, but he'd probably piss on me anyway. He and I split the program without graduating, the eldest never went through but joined a rather militant Stepcraft coven later in life (to treat her two glasses of wine a night addiction.... or maybe just to get back in good standing with the rest of the family).
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Most hospitals in Wisconsin now have standardized color-coded alerts for patients.
Many hospitals use color-coded alerts as a way to quickly identify important information about a patient, including his identity, allergies, risk of falling, and do-not-resuscitate (DNR) orders.
Dana Richardson, with the Wisconsin Hospital Association, says the format varies, but the concept is the same.
http://http://209.85.173.132/search?q=cache:Dvt_eu6pEZUJ:www.wrn.com/gestalt/go.cfm%3Fobjectid%3DDA3A1F8B-5056-B82A-37CB12A212CB0A72+color+coding+patients&cd=15&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
Sick and injured children come in all sizes, challenging their caregivers to provide them with appropriate doses of medication and other necessary therapies. Harborview Medical Center is offering a conference next week on a system that allows paramedics, physicians and nurses to assess a child's size in time to prepare the treatments he or she will need.
http://http://uwnews.org/article.asp?articleID=10010
NOW SHOW US YOUR LINKS THAT PROVE COLOR CODING TO BE ABUSIVE. YOU ALREADY LIED TO US ABOUT THE KIDS HAVING TO STRIP NAKED AND PUT ON JUMPSUITS. LETS SEE IF YOU CAN REDEEM YOURSELF. JUST POST US ONE LINK.....
THOUGHT SO
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I don't think anyone can argue that in a hospital setting color coding is detrimental to the health of the patients. I sure as hell won't as I'm the guy who used a felt tip marker to draw a big circle on my knee that needed surgery and a big "X" with a "NO" under it for the knee that didn't need surgery. I'd damn well hope that hospitals pull their heads out of their asses and come up with some sort of visual id system for patients given the surgeries and medical treatments involved.
However, going to a hospital for routine or emergency medical care and dealing with licensed medical authorities is an entirely spectrum than a young man or woman in a program.
To compare the to is at best a fallacious argument as a program is not a hospital and a hospital is not a program. The best interests of the residents in a program are not actively served by stigmatizing a young man or woman by singling them out for special attention based upon an orange jumpsuit. Personally, as being one of the fellows who worked at a program here I'll say that the need for orange jumpsuits and other identifying marks are absurd. Literally you live and work in an atmosphere of paranoia in the first place. The chances of a kid doing anything secretly are minor at best given that he is surrounded by peers 24 hours a day and is under continuous staff supervision.
A hospital being so busy at it is with all sorts of things going on are wise to use a color coding system for meds. Seriously, I want the big green pills that make my hair fall out and my teeth turn purple to be well known.
I want the doctors to know that I'm there for yet another bout of whatever weird South East Asian veneral disease I picked up rather than a bladder to mouth transplant.
Damn I definitely want them to be able to figure out that I'm in for a minor toe surgery and not a leg amputation.
Considering all of these things make sense the arguments for color coding in a program make absolutely no sense. I can understand a common group color, but I can't understand a special color for high risk kids. This merely serves to aggravate whatever social discomfort they are already suffering and increase the humiliation factor.
Other than playing mafia wars on facebook I don't have much use for it other than chatting with friends and kids I worked with at Three Springs.
One of them recently told me that being on link (forced to hold the end of a garbage bag) was so humiliating that frequently it increased his thoughts of suicide rather than made his environment safer. Makes me regret ever putting anyone on link, but I hated link so much I rarely ever kept anyone on it as long as I was supposed to put them on it anyway. On occasion I was forced, forced I say, to put a kid on link with himself.
Take it as you will, but the argument here about jumpsuits and hospitals are a side show deserving of their own thread. I strongly suggest conducting the discussion on www.4chans.org (http://www.4chans.org) as well for sheer epic fail of attempting to blow smoke up our asses.
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What does your daughter think about her experience in treatment and your parenting style, NeilW? And what does she think about your obsessive ranting on fornits? I'd be willing to bet that you don't even have a daughter, or any kids for that matter.
That's not neil. Someone is spoofing him.
Time to get an account, neil! :seg:
Thanks, It seems someone has already grabbed my name. I am not sure what I said to upset that person. I guess it is pretty funny, but it does show why you need to register if you want to protect what you say. I will post as a guest for awhile until I can come up with a different name.
NeilW
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If you choose to attack me - then reveal yourself, don't hide. In the US Courts - everyone has a right to confront their accuser. People
here are attacking me and hiding. No charges have been brought against me, nor will any be, because I have not broken any laws, and
while many people do not agree with the decisions I have made ( every person's right - but then these are anonymous beings out there, not
people - I acknowledge no rights to anyone without a name!) they are my decisions.
Let me entertain this notion for a moment, lets say that charges were brought against you... Do you realize that it would be none of us that would do so, it would be your daughter who would have the case against you. I think you should rephrase your thinking on who is attacking who at this moment, we are simply advocating for her because she seems to blame herself for those mistakes you say you made because you didn't know how to be a good parent for her.
I have been reading your blog, or I was until I started talking to Katie, I reached out to her because what I heard of "your side of the story" made me sick to my stomach. I really have to ask you what kind of parent treats their daughter with such disdain, regardless of the mistakes she's made in the past she is still your daughter and is deserving of your love. Yes, Katie made some bad decisions, but constantly berating her about them and refusing to give her any respect really escalated her self esteem problems. Don't you realize that the cycle never ends if you keep blaming her and refuse make any changes. You and Dianne talk a lot about how Katie doesn't take any accountability, well what about you? Do you really think you hold no responsibility in how miserable Katie grew to be? Honestly, Dianne was not a good fit for your family, she is too harsh and hateful and that is not the kind of mother Katie needed. You know she really needed you after she lost her mother, and its not hard to realize that this all started when you chose your wife over your daughter. I know how Katie felt, I came from a household where my stepmother made my life miserable as well and I acted out too because as a child you don't have the proper tools to deal with those emotions. Its your parents who are supposed to teach kids how to deal with their but instead you chose to fuel the fire with more hate and anger. Do you know what would have made all the difference in Katie's teen years? If you and Dianne would have taken some parenting classes and learned how to work with a child with depression. She had, (and still has) special needs but you spent so much time judging and punishing her that you actually made her depression worse and that depression, her misery and loneliness is what caused her to cut herself act out and hang out with friends that had similar problems. Stop blaming your child and be a man, take some responsibility and try to show her the love and attention she has been crying out for, she needs it and she deserves it.
Another reason I have to bring your parenting (and logic) into question is because despite the fact that she has a serious and crippling depression, you sent her to a program. A program that promises to change you child for you so you don't have to deal with it anymore. It WAS incarceration, she was not allowed to leave or even speak to anyone outside the facility beside you for 3 years... thats what we call here on earth a private prison. The way the program operates, even in the seemingly "non-abusive" schools, is not conducive to treating mental disorders, that fact is even stated in their contracts. The "therapists" work for the program and follow an oppressive agenda that is not approved by any medical or psychological association. The staff is not qualified to be working with special needs kids, regardless of if some of them call themselves "therapists", If they are not following proper medical procedures then they obviously don't know what they are doing. The whole program is an improper procedure, They strip children of their basic human rights, they use physical (and violent) restraint and isolation quite often as a punishment for "not following rules" instead of in accordance with federal law. They verbally, mentally and emotionally abuse the students in order to create the "tough love" environment and they cut too many corners when it comes to your children's safety and well-being. I don't understand, regardless if you felt you had no other option, why this kind of program would have even been considered for a severely depressed little girl. My guess is that getting her out of your home was more important then actually helping Katie and that is why so many of us are upset with the way you justify your actions.
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Thanks, It seems someone has already grabbed my name. I am not sure what I said to upset that person. I guess it is pretty funny, but it does show why you need to register if you want to protect what you say. I will post as a guest for awhile until I can come up with a different name.
NeilW
You don't give up do you, troll!! Ha,Ha,Ha... I'm flattered that you want to be me, but give it a rest.
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Most hospitals in Wisconsin now have standardized color-coded alerts for patients.
Many hospitals use color-coded alerts as a way to quickly identify important information about a patient, including his identity, allergies, risk of falling, and do-not-resuscitate (DNR) orders.
Dana Richardson, with the Wisconsin Hospital Association, says the format varies, but the concept is the same.
http://http://209.85.173.132/search?q=cache:Dvt_eu6pEZUJ:www.wrn.com/gestalt/go.cfm%3Fobjectid%3DDA3A1F8B-5056-B82A-37CB12A212CB0A72+color+coding+patients&cd=15&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
Sick and injured children come in all sizes, challenging their caregivers to provide them with appropriate doses of medication and other necessary therapies. Harborview Medical Center is offering a conference next week on a system that allows paramedics, physicians and nurses to assess a child's size in time to prepare the treatments he or she will need.
http://http://uwnews.org/article.asp?articleID=10010
NOW SHOW US YOUR LINKS THAT PROVE COLOR CODING TO BE ABUSIVE. YOU ALREADY LIED TO US ABOUT THE KIDS HAVING TO STRIP NAKED AND PUT ON JUMPSUITS. LETS SEE IF YOU CAN REDEEM YOURSELF. JUST POST US ONE LINK.....
THOUGHT SO
lol, guest/who.
Did you actually READ any of those articles you provided?
They describe hospitals using wrist bracelots with colors denoting whether a patient has allergies, or wishes to be receussitated, etc.
Where are the links establishing hospitals force patients forms of identification that publicly establish them as a particular "level" of supposed psychiatric inadequacy or distubance;
where are the links confirming hospitals force patients to wear outfits which symbolize that they are “self injurers”(yellow, at Cross Creek) or “bad” ( “orange”)?
lol, guest/who.
Did you READ those articles you provided?
They describe hospitals using wrist bracelets to denote whether a patient has allergies, or wishes to be necessitated, etc.
Where are the links establishing hospitals force patients to wear forms of identification that publicly establish them as a particular "level" of supposed psychiatric inadequacy or disturbance?
Where are the links confirming hospitals force patients to wear outfits which symbolize that they are “self injurers”(yellow, at Cross Creek) or “bad” ( “orange”)?
I'm not even requesting links where hospitals force psychiatric patients to wear outfits that designate they are too bad or too crazy to be allowed contact with the outside world, or must expose their pubic area and breasts to staff or other patients at “higher” levels once a day, i.e. force patients to publicly establish through insignia that they are being sexually, physically, and psychologically tormented, yet another element of the torment.
Let’s start with the links where hospitals force patients to wear outfits designating they are bad, or not working the program or self injurers?
Please provide these links, guest/who.
Still waiting….
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Personally I think color coding is okay as long as it serves the purpose of keeping the child safe and not just to humiliate them. If a child is a flight risk, or can do harm to themselves then it would be acceptable so that staff can easily keep an eye on them. I would also say that it would be fine to have different colors for different phases of the program also. Color coding is used internationally as a visual communication tool.
If the kids are humiliated by it then it would be counter productive to any therapy they may be involved in.
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Last post was mine
NeilW
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here is some info on psychological torute through forced, symbolic attire. I'm not providing you with any material a half brained idiot is not aware of
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_punishment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_punishment)
Very common is the use of shame through private or, especially, public humiliation.
For example, publicly shaving a woman’s head may not only humiliate her in front of those who witness her shearing, it may also deprive her of her hair for as long as it takes to grow back, thus serving as a continual reminder of her punishment and her humiliation.
Another example of psychological humiliation would be forcing a child into an outfit that designates they are “bad.”
the outfit serves a continual reminder of her punishment and humiliation; it publicizes precisely what her punishment and humiliation entails: i.e. forced public nudity, unworthiness to speak, unworthiness to move freely; and it, in itself, is a continual humiliation and punishment.
It works on so many levels, you sociopath!
Kaite, SUE THEM INTO OBLIVION.
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Last post was mine
NeilW
my personal opinion may be that kids should be raped all day. My "opinion" and your "opinion" are irrelevent.
Medically, such violations are classified as abuse and have been proved to have devestating consequences for victims. Only doctors with legitimate modalities should be allowed to offer "treatment" for anyone, otherwise anyone's "opinion" can be translated into action, with bloody consequences.
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If you choose to attack me - then reveal yourself, don't hide. In the US Courts - everyone has a right to confront their accuser. People
here are attacking me and hiding. No charges have been brought against me, nor will any be, because I have not broken any laws, and
while many people do not agree with the decisions I have made ( every person's right - but then these are anonymous beings out there, not
people - I acknowledge no rights to anyone without a name!) they are my decisions.
Let me entertain this notion for a moment, lets say that charges were brought against you... Do you realize that it would be none of us that would do so, it would be your daughter who would have the case against you. I think you should rephrase your thinking on who is attacking who at this moment, we are simply advocating for her because she seems to blame herself for those mistakes you say you made because you didn't know how to be a good parent for her.
I have been reading your blog, or I was until I started talking to Katie, I reached out to her because what I heard of "your side of the story" made me sick to my stomach. I really have to ask you what kind of parent treats their daughter with such disdain, regardless of the mistakes she's made in the past she is still your daughter and is deserving of your love. Yes, Katie made some bad decisions, but constantly berating her about them and refusing to give her any respect really escalated her self esteem problems. Don't you realize that the cycle never ends if you keep blaming her and refuse make any changes. You and Dianne talk a lot about how Katie doesn't take any accountability, well what about you? Do you really think you hold no responsibility in how miserable Katie grew to be? Honestly, Dianne was not a good fit for your family, she is too harsh and hateful and that is not the kind of mother Katie needed. You know she really needed you after she lost her mother, and its not hard to realize that this all started when you chose your wife over your daughter. I know how Katie felt, I came from a household where my stepmother made my life miserable as well and I acted out too because as a child you don't have the proper tools to deal with those emotions. Its your parents who are supposed to teach kids how to deal with their but instead you chose to fuel the fire with more hate and anger. Do you know what would have made all the difference in Katie's teen years? If you and Dianne would have taken some parenting classes and learned how to work with a child with depression. She had, (and still has) special needs but you spent so much time judging and punishing her that you actually made her depression worse and that depression, her misery and loneliness is what caused her to cut herself act out and hang out with friends that had similar problems. Stop blaming your child and be a man, take some responsibility and try to show her the love and attention she has been crying out for, she needs it and she deserves it.
Another reason I have to bring your parenting (and logic) into question is because despite the fact that she has a serious and crippling depression, you sent her to a program. A program that promises to change you child for you so you don't have to deal with it anymore. It WAS incarceration, she was not allowed to leave or even speak to anyone outside the facility beside you for 3 years... thats what we call here on earth a private prison. The way the program operates, even in the seemingly "non-abusive" schools, is not conducive to treating mental disorders, that fact is even stated in their contracts. The "therapists" work for the program and follow an oppressive agenda that is not approved by any medical or psychological association. The staff is not qualified to be working with special needs kids, regardless of if some of them call themselves "therapists", If they are not following proper medical procedures then they obviously don't know what they are doing. The whole program is an improper procedure, They strip children of their basic human rights, they use physical (and violent) restraint and isolation quite often as a punishment for "not following rules" instead of in accordance with federal law. They verbally, mentally and emotionally abuse the students in order to create the "tough love" environment and they cut too many corners when it comes to your children's safety and well-being. I don't understand, regardless if you felt you had no other option, why this kind of program would have even been considered for a severely depressed little girl. My guess is that getting her out of your home was more important then actually helping Katie and that is why so many of us are upset with the way you justify your actions.
Thank you, femanon.
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So the evidence shows that as long as the color coding isnt put in place to humiliate the person then it is an acceptable identification tool.
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So the evidence shows that as long as the color coding isnt put in place to humiliate the person then it is an acceptable identification tool.
Depending what an outfit signifies, whether an outfit is forced onto someone, and what further humiliations and punishments the outfit designates you as a receiver of merits whether it qualifies as psychological torture/ abuse or not .
If the Nazis forced the yellow star insignia onto the Jews as a while CLAIMING they are doing so to protect them, would that act still be psychologically abusive?
Yes.
The end, who
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Thanks, It seems someone has already grabbed my name. I am not sure what I said to upset that person. I guess it is pretty funny, but it does show why you need to register if you want to protect what you say. I will post as a guest for awhile until I can come up with a different name.
NeilW
You don't give up do you, troll!! Ha,Ha,Ha... I'm flattered that you want to be me, but give it a rest.
look, its obvious your trolling, and we can tell when your trolling. stop making an idiot of yourself.
Here on forward any post by registered user NeilW should be ignored.
Real Neil, I suggest you make yourself a different name, register it and Im sure we will be able to recognize you simply by the manner of which you speak.
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Ok, sometimes I just can't resist.
One recent poster said no one could figure out why anyone would think the way a Program parent does. I could give some fairly well informed conjecture, but I won't. I'll just respond to this quote and leave it open to anyone's imagination, including my own, why the one idea seems to resonate with the other in my squirrelly little mind.
On one of the rare occasions in my adult life when I have conversed with my mother, she got annoyed with something I had said or done. She took on that familiar tone of a hen gearing up for a good rant and clucked out that rhetorical question that I had heard a hundred or more times before; "What's the matter with you?!" I quipped back "I dunno, Mom, poor potty training?" Never heard that particular one out of her again.
[edit... damn it! The quote got lost. It was just something about comparing bm to toilet training. sorry for the error]
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Personally I think color coding is okay as long as it serves the purpose of keeping the child safe and not just to humiliate them. If a child is a flight risk, or can do harm to themselves then it would be acceptable so that staff can easily keep an eye on them. I would also say that it would be fine to have different colors for different phases of the program also. Color coding is used internationally as a visual communication tool.
If the kids are humiliated by it then it would be counter productive to any therapy they may be involved in.
Staff can easily keep an eye on a kid without the color coding. If a group of kids is so large that they have to put a kid in an orange jumper you have not one problem but two.
1) They are humiliating the kid in the name of expediency.
2) The group is to damn large for the staffer to do his/her job of supervising the kids.
Though you keep glossing over the point that putting a kid in an orange jumper is detrimental to their mental health. How about you wear an Orange jumper to work next week and tell us how you felt about it?
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Personally I think color coding is okay as long as it serves the purpose of keeping the child safe and not just to humiliate them. If a child is a flight risk, or can do harm to themselves then it would be acceptable so that staff can easily keep an eye on them. I would also say that it would be fine to have different colors for different phases of the program also. Color coding is used internationally as a visual communication tool.
If the kids are humiliated by it then it would be counter productive to any therapy they may be involved in.
Staff can easily keep an eye on a kid without the color coding. If a group of kids is so large that they have to put a kid in an orange jumper you have not one problem but two.
1) They are humiliating the kid in the name of expediency.
2) The group is to damn large for the staffer to do his/her job of supervising the kids.
Though you keep glossing over the point that putting a kid in an orange jumper is detrimental to their mental health. How about you wear an Orange jumper to work next week and tell us how you felt about it?
Again, Mr. Che Gookin I need to disagree. The color coding is needed as a visual tool and not intended to humiliate. I believe someone said that “all” the kids are placed into orange when they first arrive. The bright orange may have been chosen so that if the child runs away they may be easly spotted or identified by local authorities.
If I was under someone elses care then I would have to go by their rules, but I am not I am an adult and can choose to wear what ever I chose just like yourself. I am sure a nurse can keep an eye on 10 patients without having the visual color code system, but it is put in place as another layer of precaution. If my hospital were to identify me with a purple wrist band to signify I was diabetic, I wouldn’t take it as they were trying to humiliate me in front of others who would be wearing yellow or brown for peanut allergy or DNR.
It seems you and others here are trying to twist and redefine specific elements of the program as being abusive, when it isn’t. It is intended to keep the children safe which is just the opposite.
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Oh please. These places are more than a little transparent about breaking kids down in order to "build them up". How, precisely, do you think the breaking down is done? Humiliation is a powerful tool, as is stripping a person of everything that they connect to as an individual in order to gradually strip them of individuality entirely. Is it possible the orange jumpsuits/tshirts/uniforms/whatever have multiple purposes?
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Oh please. These places are more than a little transparent about breaking kids down in order to "build them up". How, precisely, do you think the breaking down is done? Humiliation is a powerful tool, as is stripping a person of everything that they connect to as an individual in order to gradually strip them of individuality entirely. Is it possible the orange jumpsuits/tshirts/uniforms/whatever have multiple purposes?
I am sure there are dual purposes. The colors or suits that they have the flight risk kids and kids who break the rules wear are probably not the popular ones or as comfortable as an added incentive (or break them down as you put it) for the kids to follow the rules so they don’t have to wear them. But there seems to be such a big push to label this as a humiliation tool or as abuse. I just don’t see it. My thinking is alot of posters here believe this because they don’t know any better and this is the first time a lot of these kids have had to conform to strict rules.
If a salesman approached HR and said he was being humiliated and abused because he has been working for the company for 15 years and is still in a small cubicle while all the people he started with have corner and window offices, would he have a case to sue? Should the company give him a corner office to stop his peers from snickering every time they passed his small cubicle and end his humiliation? Why are all his co-workers being rewarded with larger offices and not him? He shows up everyday for work just like they do.
I really beleive the color of the t-shirts is a stretch for crying abuse.
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I really beleive the color of the t-shirts is a stretch for crying abuse.
Perhaps on it's own, but in context with everything else, it can paint a different picture. Just stick around and keep an open mind.
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Oh please. These places are more than a little transparent about breaking kids down in order to "build them up". How, precisely, do you think the breaking down is done? Humiliation is a powerful tool, as is stripping a person of everything that they connect to as an individual in order to gradually strip them of individuality entirely. Is it possible the orange jumpsuits/tshirts/uniforms/whatever have multiple purposes?
I am sure there are dual purposes. The colors or suits that they have the flight risk kids and kids who break the rules wear are probably not the popular ones or as comfortable as an added incentive (or break them down as you put it) for the kids to follow the rules so they don’t have to wear them. But there seems to be such a big push to label this as a humiliation tool or as abuse. I just don’t see it. My thinking is alot of posters here believe this because they don’t know any better and this is the first time a lot of these kids have had to conform to strict rules.
If a salesman approached HR and said he was being humiliated and abused because he has been working for the company for 15 years and is still in a small cubicle while all the people he started with have corner and window offices, would he have a case to sue? Should the company give him a corner office to stop his peers from snickering every time they passed his small cubicle and end his humiliation? Why are all his co-workers being rewarded with larger offices and not him? He shows up everyday for work just like they do.
I really beleive the color of the t-shirts is a stretch for crying abuse.
Must this be said a million times?
No one said the "color" or type of outfit itself was the problem--(unless it's mimicking a prisoner's uniform, or is too small, etc---i.e., debasing in itself.)
Like forcefully shaving a "criminal" woman's head,(" publicly shaving a woman’s head may not only humiliate her in front of those who witness her shearing, it may also deprive her of her hair for as long as it takes to grow back, thus serving as a continual reminder of her punishment and her humiliation") Cross Creek’s uses colors to denote a detainee’s badness, depravity, and like the “yellow star of Judea” it uses colored scrubs to create a caste system in which the precise humiliations and abuses the wearer has/will experience and deserves to experience are publicly displayed. The symbolism of the forcefully applied color and its “abuse level” designations is the psychological torture, not the color itself, as the symbolism of the forcefully shaved head is psychological abuse, not a shaved head itself.
As for forcing self injurers to wear “yellow,” why not make the girls who have been involved in incest wear "red" or a scarlet "A"? Making what is personal and painful into a public exhibit is yet another layer of deliberate psychological destruction: disintegration of emotional privacy, taking away the choice of whether to make something so personal into something public, turning something painful into something shameful, and turning a bad experience or symptom of pain into an identity
As for your not having a corner office being equivalent to kidnapping people and forcing them into outfits that designate their level of depravity and the level abuse they recieve, the reason you can't see the difference is the reason you are a child abuser. I actually think that you abuse your child (or other people's) to cathartically purge "normal" humiliations such as not having a large office. Your victims are you "poison bags." You channel the poison of your everyday life onto them.
By the way, your arguments are absurd and anyone with an education or a brain pays them no mind. I respond only because this subject is my emotional heart.
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I really beleive the color of the t-shirts is a stretch for crying abuse.
Perhaps on it's own, but in context with everything else, it can paint a different picture. Just stick around and keep an open mind.
Are you saying this guest is not the who?
Can you please answer that? I've asked you before. he sound a lot like him, but I dont want to keep assuming he is if he is not.
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I really beleive the color of the t-shirts is a stretch for crying abuse.
Perhaps on it's own, but in context with everything else, it can paint a different picture. Just stick around and keep an open mind.
Are you saying this guest is not the who?
Can you please answer that? I've asked you before. he sound a lot like him, but I dont want to keep assuming he is if he is not.
I couldn't tell you even if he was. You should know that. The only time I've outed Who is when he has given me permission. Identities of guests is private, and that applies to everybody here regardless of how myself, ginger, or anybody else might feel about them personally.
In this case, I didn't even check (i rarely if ever do). Frankly, I don't want to know. I do know that there are lots of parents like his persona (who he portrayed himself to be) out in the world, although I do believe Whooter is/was actually a hired gun... There is really no other explanation if you've followed him for long enough. He'll defend *any* program... even places like AARC. I'm not sure even the most staunch program parent would be as extreme if they were exposed to the same truth he has been.
Anyway... It really doesn't matter whether the person is whooter, a program parent, or a regular playing devil's advocate. It's a necessary function. Whooter was right about one thing: there must always be a counterbalance on this forum. Think long enough about it and maybe you'll agree. He asks us to question why program critics believe what they believe... and I think that's important. Blindly following any ideal is dangerous, regardless of what it is, and even if you're "right". It's mental sloth (http://http://www.quotesdaddy.com/quote/1289835/friedrich-nietzsche/out-of-passions-grow-opinions-mental-sloth-lets-these).
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What I would like to know is why you, NeilW, have such an interest in our forum and what program you are affiliated with and why you think the kind of "treatment" in these programs is appropriate. Furthermore I would like to know if you have children, and if you have at any point placed them in a program. I know these questions have been asked before and you blatantly skirt them, and I assume cowardliness is just another perk of your refined personality but I think it would only be fair that you reveal your reasoning for being so cold toward us and the children we are advocating for.
I have several children and have had a child in a program. If I seem cold towards you it is because I have seen the bias of how parents are treated vs kids on this forum. I find it hard to believe that you say who you are. People that I have known who studied psychology don’t go around calling other people names. I also find it hard to believe that you know the names of people who force kids to eat feces and vomit and urinate on them. It seems that within the confines of this forum stories like this are accepted at face value.
Those "stories" are from 1000s of survivors, have been submitted under penalty of perjury, during in the course of lawsuits,criminal investigations, congressional hearings. They have been presented to Feds and have put more than one WWASP manager in the clink and have closed down several WWASP torture chamers. (mostly overseas by countries not bought by David Gilcrease and his evil child murdering henchmen) Time to stop calling them stories, who.
FEMANON, contact Kaite, or her brothers. Do something helpful instead of wasting time with thewho, please, ::poke:: :soapbox:
Already found her, contacted her and just waiting for a response. Katie's Myspace (http://http://www.myspace.com/403847648)
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thank you for finding Katie! How did you manage it, if you don't mind saying?
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However I WILL NOT RESPOND to anonymous emails - since people have decided to post my name, Diane's phone numbers and a whole lot more information, then if you expect me to respond then I will expect the same - a minimum of your full name and location. Nor will I respond to flames.
Let's make this clear right from the gate. YOU posted that personal identifying information about yourself in your profile at Blogger.com. You can't legitimately complain about anybody but yourself making that public. I suppose that when you did that, you just presumed that the whole world would agree with you and maybe send you love letters or business connects or something. Now you're haring from people who have been the beneficiaries of the same sort of "help" you have inflicted on your daughter. Yeah, it cost you a lot. That 30 year mortgage is nothing compared to the costs you have begun to realize but have yet to properly attribute to the correct cause.
Quit picking on the kid and take some responsibility for your own actions, please.
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Taking responsibility for you actions?
Damn girl.. staff words!
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The most interesting
part of the book is that of the very few programs she talked about, Cross Creek came out basically without a problem. She didn't like
it, but couldn't condemn it (aside from the fact that they wouldn't meet with her).
I first met Maia when she attended the Drug Treatment Abuse conference in Bethesda, MD back in 2000. I wound up doing the website for the book. During that time, I asked her why she had chosen to publish such well known accounts instead of introducing any of the plethora of newer information that had come to light in the mean time. She told me that it was not her call but that of her editors and it was because of the cost of litigation. The stories she chose to outline were already proven, documented, sworn, unimpeachable. It costs a LOt--a lot of money, a lot or time, a lot of emotional energy--to bring a case to that point. Believe me, there's more out there. Lots more.
Now, as a man, will you assume everything's safe till some authority figure tells you otherwise or will you listen to your own blood? Simple choice. Not easy, by any stretch. But simple as Simon.
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Your blog is very helpful to other parents who are struggling with similar family issues. Thank you for taking the time to posts as often as you did. I am sure you help others with it.
Sure, as a cautionary tale about what NOT to do.
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However I WILL NOT RESPOND to anonymous emails - since people have decided to post my name, Diane's phone numbers and a whole lot more information, then if you expect me to respond then I will expect the same - a minimum of your full name and location. Nor will I respond to flames.
Let's make this clear right from the gate. YOU posted that personal identifying information about yourself in your profile at Blogger.com. You can't legitimately complain about anybody but yourself making that public. I suppose that when you did that, you just presumed that the whole world would agree with you and maybe send you love letters or business connects or something. Now you're haring from people who have been the beneficiaries of the same sort of "help" you have inflicted on your daughter. Yeah, it cost you a lot. That 30 year mortgage is nothing compared to the costs you have begun to realize but have yet to properly attribute to the correct cause.
Quit picking on the kid and take some responsibility for your own actions, please.
Excuse me - but my wife's work phone numbers ARE NOT posted on my profile, nor on hers. Nor is my father's name. Sure, if you dig and research enough you can probably find that and a lot more. For example, my wife's work phone numbers are associated with here job, period.
Now, you will be glad to know you have frightened her. I hope those threatening us are proud of themselves - like the anti-abortionists going around with fetus's in a jar - you want to protect only certain people and hurt anyone else. So rights only extend to those hiding behind the white sheets.
Nobody here has truly tried to discuss anything - but have loaded entry after entry with threats. Things like telling my daughter that she should slit my throat in my sleep. I guess things like that are good and proper, while doing the best I can to raise my children is wrong. If the people here spent half the energy helping people that they do tearing others down then the world would be a better place.
I have always taken responsibilities for myself and my family. Always. I don't get handouts, I work hard to provide for my family. I faced some very difficult choices, and some people who disagree with my choices do nothing but threaten me because of them.
I don't see anyone here looking for any kind of balance nor truth. It is all pushing their agenda. For most of you, it is that EVERY program is wrong and abusive and EVERY person there has been abused. There seem to be one or two others who go the other extreme. Honestly - I believe a lot of the program, especially those overseas, had a lot of issues, and abuse probably did occur there at times. But very little in the world is black and white. Not everyone who went to a program was abused. Anybody who believes in the extremes is deluding themselves, regardless of what the issues are.
Is the color of a t-shirt abusive - I don't think so. Nor more so than rank symbols in the military are - they indicate EARNED privileges and responsibility.
And since it is after midnight here - Happy Easter to everybody. I don't claim the label of being a 'Christian', though if any of the anonymous posters here do they should take a look at what this holiday is all about, and the man it celebrates. For the rest - I hope you at least have a pleasant spring day - and beware of bunnies bearing eggs!
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Ah yes, but in the military you join at Cross Creek Manor you are forced to go.
Likewise, there are numerous ways or denoting rank and privelage but in a program they generally all mean the same thing. The program has a poor staff to client ratio and depends upon the sheeple/upper stage kiss ups to do their supervision for you.
I don't completely agree with the idea that all color coding is immediately abusive. A common color for a group is one thing providing all of the kids wear the same color regardless of status.
Look dude.. I know you want to defend this program because it is easier than coming clean with the fact that you just squandered 3 years of the most precious time you'll ever have with your daughter. I can only hope you'll take the time to forgive yourself and seek her forgiveness later.
Basically, in before the storm because at some point your daughter's programming will wear off and she'll do one or two things:
A) Accept it all as a tragic error and let it go.
B) Do what I would do and rage.. hard.
But hey.. that is her choice as she is an adult and free to make those decisions. Certainly something a program never prepared her to do.
Least not in my experience in working at them for 4 years or so and in other child care capacities for longer.
Best of luck to you and hopefully the easter bunny shit in your mouth.
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minor note before i head to bed...
look, Mccarter,
To me, responsibility means for my own actions and that is it. To you, it seems to mean for anything that happens to you in your life (universal). It's a convenient philosophy for programs to teach to parents in their seminars because you're always "at cause"(alwys your fault). This means they can screw you all they want and no matter what, you'll blame yourself.
just food for thought.
Is it possible you made a mistake by putting your daugher in CCM? is it? Would you believe her or condemn her (accuse her of manipulation) if she ever told you about mistreatment while there? Why?
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Also, just FYI, this forum is unmoderated. Please don't blame *everybody* for the words of just one person. Contrary to what you might think, not everybody here thinks alike.
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Taking responsibility for you actions?
Damn girl.. staff words!
Ok, yeah, but I know the true meaning of those words. Just like I knew, instinctively, that they had misspelled the word "impotent" when they typed out the rules staring with the first one, "Honesty, the first and most important[sic] rule".
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However I WILL NOT RESPOND to anonymous emails - since people have decided to post my name, Diane's phone numbers and a whole lot more information, then if you expect me to respond then I will expect the same - a minimum of your full name and location. Nor will I respond to flames.
Let's make this clear right from the gate. YOU posted that personal identifying information about yourself in your profile at Blogger.com. You can't legitimately complain about anybody but yourself making that public. I suppose that when you did that, you just presumed that the whole world would agree with you and maybe send you love letters or business connects or something. Now you're haring from people who have been the beneficiaries of the same sort of "help" you have inflicted on your daughter. Yeah, it cost you a lot. That 30 year mortgage is nothing compared to the costs you have begun to realize but have yet to properly attribute to the correct cause.
Quit picking on the kid and take some responsibility for your own actions, please.
Excuse me - but my wife's work phone numbers ARE NOT posted on my profile, nor on hers. Nor is my father's name. Sure, if you dig and research enough you can probably find that and a lot more. For example, my wife's work phone numbers are associated with here job, period.
Oh, you assumed we're all druggie fuckups, incapable of doing simple quick research? Your bad. It's all out there and you published the initial information and impetus for people to hit Whitepages.com to gather the rest. Because you were guilty of the 7th Cardinal sin, you figured it was safe enough to do this. The real gut busting laughable irony here is that it really is that safe. So? You've had a bit of your dirty laundry tied to your identity. Can you even begin to imagine how your daughter must feel discovering the last 4 years of her private life published without her consent or even information ??? It's not as if any old prospective school, employer or significant other couldn't do the same light research in the same ten minutes it took the troll to do it.
Look, listen, I think you're a reasonable man who has been snookered in very like manner to the way my own very wise and heartfull father had been. Just tell the Program staffer in your head to sit down and shut the fuck up and take a look at what you have done, please. I'd rather never hear from you or Katie again in this public forum but know that you worked things out than to have more grotesque publicity for the cause. But if you refuse to address her respectfully as a fully qualified human being (who, btw, will be responsible for your care in your later life in much the same way you were for hers in her early life ... not to put too fine a point on it) then I predict, but do not wish, that this ugly family brawl will continue where you started it, in public.
Butch the fuck up, man! Quit layin' it on your young daughter and calling it heroism! Aw gawd! This is fucking Sickening!!! Stop please! Go pick on someone your own size!
Now, you will be glad to know you have frightened her.
Uh, do you think she and you have not frightened Katie ... repeatedly... protractedly? Butch the fuck up or cut your balls off and pickle them.
I hope those threatening us are proud of themselves - like the anti-abortionists going around with fetus's in a jar - you want to protect only certain people and hurt anyone else. So rights only extend to those hiding behind the white sheets.
Or those of legal age of majority? Hypocrite. Take what you dish out with a little courage and maybe, one day, your daughter will trust you again.
Nobody here has truly tried to discuss anything - but have loaded entry after entry with threats. Things like telling my daughter that she should slit my throat in my sleep. I guess things like that are good and proper, while doing the best I can to raise my children is wrong. If the people here spent half the energy helping people that they do tearing others down then the world would be a better place.
Well, one of the things a lot of us try to warn the program faithful about is that some people are so adversely effected by this mindfuck that they become irredeemably violent and sociopathic. You are one lucky son of a bitch in that your daughter, unlike some, is still trying to reach out to you with arms of love and words of understanding instead of a baseball bat like Timothy Nixon http://www.thestraights.com/pickets/warning_parents.htm (http://www.thestraights.com/pickets/warning_parents.htm) or a number of other kids who have turned their rage either on their parents in murder or on themselves in suicide.
Look, Mike. I meant what I said. I think you're sincere but misguided. You just don't know the real history of the cult to which you have given your allegiance. You should look into it some.
I don't see anyone here looking for any kind of balance nor truth. It is all pushing their agenda.
What, are you fucking kidding me? Take a minute or two and contemplate this question, please. Why in the world would so many people ranging from the unimpeachable professional success story all the way to the disenfranchised meth head or prolee continue to protest this one common element of our experience after all these decades if there were not something to it? Why would so many parents, like Buzzkill and others, join in their dissent?
Not saying you're a bad person or dumb or any such like. Smart people are easier to scam than dumb ones because of... well, that deadly sin... you know the one... Just saying please live up to your reputation and think instead of just scrambling to rearrange your prejudices or deck chairs or however you fancy to visualize it.
Sometimes an agenda has merit, other times it doesn't. You know that. You're a logical man. I'm disappointed that someone calling themselves a programmer would stoop to using that right honorable term in a pejorative manner a la program drone. WAKE THE FUCK UP! THIS IS THE ONLY DAUGHTER YOU WILL LIKELY EVER HAVE!
Is the color of a t-shirt abusive - I don't think so. Nor more so than rank symbols in the military are - they indicate EARNED privileges and responsibility.
No more than the shape of a dunce cap. It's the meaning in context that is demeaning. And, trust me as one who has been there, this is a very MINOR little red herring thrown by a troll. Much more harmful and obvious abuse is discussed in this thread. Ask yourself, please, why you would choose to grab for the low hanging fruit and seize on that particular argument instead of addressing any of the many more substantial topics raised in this and related threads.
Please as yourself. I don't care very much whether you answer me or not. But please, please ask yourself.
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Anyone wonder about the kind of stupid required to fork over one's life savings to a cult?
Beheld: Michael C. Carter, misbegotten son of Carrol Joseph Carter, and his wife, Diane Carter, of Dayton Ohio. His idiocy surpasses lesser idiots, on this day of our savior's resurrection, and forevermore.
Michael Carter, YOU posted your full name, you father’s full name, and your wife’s name & pictures on your blog along with you address. I think you even linked to your wife’s place of work, or mentioned she worked in real estate. I don’t remember. The only "research" that may have done to get her address was to Google her name (which you provided) and her location (which you provided) and, poof, top of the page, her work # appears.
Be thankful no emails were sent to ALL of your associates, work and otherwise, about what you did to your own daughter.
Because, while you choose WWASP-dream-cult-world over reality as witnessed in multiple lawsuits, sworn testimonies, news articles, books, clinical studies, deaths, criminal prosecutions, the well-known record of its founders, and your OWN eyes if you were capable of comprehending what you saw (Hint:not allowing a human being to call ANYONE until she "earns" that privilege is psychological torture, and illegal, even in prison) most people live in reality…And what do you think they’d think of YOU if they found out what YOU did?
(Outside of those who work for the teen torture industry, like Neil W, and mentally warped lappers of LGATs and EST, people don’t condone the torture of innocents.)
Also, what is the problem with posting your wife or father’s name and address.Please tell me what your objections are about that, exactly.
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Dayton Ohio
Go Triangles! woo hoo!
Say hi to the Deal sisters for me. (Four hours to daylight, four hours and then, pour water on me, till I live again.)
And yeah, I'm getting the feeling that Mr. Carter here has a problem with selective hearing, and is paying attention to only those who are being inflammatory. I know that myself, michael, fem and several others have been quite reasonable and thoughtful in our responses. I even took the time to post in his blog. Because the fact of the matter is, this IS sad, and a lot of us have been there.
However, at this juncture, I'm with Ginger on this. And as she stated...
Butch the fuck up. The butthurt act is getting tired. She's your daughter, not a trained seal. I've been diplomatic, as have several others, but it seems that at this point, you are more interested in how you yourself have been slighted or "done wrong".
I think there is another member of your family that can school you on what that really feels like.
So many parents say to those of us with no critters of our own: "You have no idea what its like to be a parent." True that. But some of us think about it, as I do, and I always try to have compassion when I can when it comes to families that are in trouble and to think about what it must be like on the other end of things. But other people seem to only be concerned about how they have been slighted, and do not offer others, (i.e. their children) that same courtesy. As Atticus said "Don't judge a man till you've walked a mile in his shoes."
Start walking, Mr. Carter.
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What the fuck? The dude spent how much money on his daughter's incarceration and torture and she isn't a trained seal?
she's not a trained seal! DEMAND A REFUND!!!!
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"Be thankful no emails were sent to ALL of your associates, work and otherwise, about what you did to your own daughter."
DO IT! What's stopping you? Last guy I pwned in this way is STILL reeling from it, and that was three years ago. You're the one with the exposure name- it's now up to you to go whole hog on his ass. Besides, isn't it unfair NOT for his co-workers to know they work with a man who sent his own daughter to a torture cult? It's sure as hell something I would want to know about the people I work with!
Psy, have you been smoking crack? This assclown won't take responsibility for anything! How could anything possibly be his fault? He has a wall of talking points and empty WWASPS rhetoric to hide behind!
Yes, that's it, that's all he has. A few days on Fornits has reduced what was left of his mind into an empty shell. I think the last few shreds of his soul have fled and we're talking to what is effectively a zombie.
All the various lurkers have gotten, horrified, to this point in the thread: TAKE HEED! SHOULD YOU ABANDON YOUR CHILDREN FOR A NEW SPOUSE (it wouldn't surprise me if he killed Katie's mother, actually), YOU VERY WELL MAY END UP LIKE THIS! Massive amounts of hatred directed your way, a daughter who is just beginning to learn that she doesn't have to live under your thumb after she's 18 and will probably start openly cursing your name fairly soon, and a 30-year mortgage.
By the way, about that mortgage? HAHAHAHAH, BITCH! I hope you lose your job and go into bankruptcy for it. Wouldn't THAT be fun to tell a judge about?
Yes, lurkers, YOU TOO can end up just like Michael Carter! Just sign on the dotted line and WWASPS will take care of everything. C'mon, what could possibly go wrong?
It's not so much karma as it is inevitability. It's rather like driving off a high cliff and then being surprised when you hit the bottom. "But... but I posted all the mandatory bullshit about 'my decision' and 'earned privileges'! Why am I still getting owned?"
The funniest part? He's literally not able to understand it. Concepts of morality beyond his basic wants elude him. "Responsibility", "choices", "truth"... these are all just words to him. "Abuse" is also a word he doesn't get, particularly in relation to children. It's like telling a medieval peasant how raping your wife isn't right. Power is the only morality he knows and he doesn't even understand that very well.
I know very well that this isn't going to stop the extended brain-mutilating trainwreck of this thread, but there's really not much point in talking to him any further. Expose him to everyone that knows him, get his daughter the fuck out of there if you really give a shit, but he's beyond anything resembling reason, humanity, or sense at this point. It's like trying to give a mummy CPR.
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What a fucking train wreck of a thread.
Good to see everyone's pulling punches as usual. Gotta sugar coat things for the "ME ME ME ME ME!" parent trying to get more attention about how hard it was to send money and his kid to strangers, right?
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Ya know, I had a very similar thought at the outset of catching up on these threads. This guy has been posting this sensitive private info for the past 4 years? And the lead role player, pr/an-tagonist just found out last week? Reminds me of my mom, with whom I've spoken maybe 20 minutes total in the last 20+ years. Took to it like a duck to water.
Mike, ...
nothing left to say.
Sorry
If I knew what to say to you I would have said it to my mother 20+ years ago. You're on your own.
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What a fucking train wreck of a thread.
Good to see everyone's pulling punches as usual. Gotta sugar coat things for the "ME ME ME ME ME!" parent trying to get more attention about how hard it was to send money and his kid to strangers, right?
This was me, FYI. Felt like finally logging in.
Hi, you don't know about me, but as soon as people start cluing you in you might shit your pants.
bloo bloo bloo you want to get more attention and narcissism out of this situation when you stumbled on people who buttered you up when you wanted an easy fix so your kid would behave with your new sex partner.
(http://http://geekadelphia.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/craigslist_alligator.jpg) MODS: Why don't images open up automatically? Argh.
Anyway, I've been busy the past 6 months busting ass and taking a crash course of a college, sorry I'm not up to par with the current board software or sugar-coating-techniques. On the other hand I DID stay at a holiday inn express last night. I graduate in may.. then its time to hit the road. Thanks for making the start of my itinerary so easy to plan out there Mike :twofinger:
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Excuse me - but my wife's work phone numbers ARE NOT posted on my profile, nor on hers. Nor is my father's name. Sure, if you dig and research enough you can probably find that and a lot more. For example, my wife's work phone numbers are associated with here job, period.
Now, you will be glad to know you have frightened her. I hope those threatening us are proud of themselves - like the anti-abortionists going around with fetus's in a jar - you want to protect only certain people and hurt anyone else. So rights only extend to those hiding behind the white sheets.
I haven't threatened anybody. Nor do I encourage anyone to do so. I also didn't look up your wife's phone numbers or any of the other things you're complaining about. These things are easily done. (check whitepages.com or google any individual's or organization's name and see what I mean)
The point is that you are the origin of the information which has enabled hostile people to locate this other information. That some people are angry, hurt and ill-mannered enough to react this way shouldn't surprise you much. Just don't make the intellectual mistake of blaming this site or anyone who uses it for publishing information which you yourself have published.
Also, since you didn't answer my message to you on your blog, I would like to clarify one thing. You refer to Fornits as "an extremely ati-program site". As the founder/administrator of this site, I haven't done anything to cause this site to be particularly anti-program. What I have done has been to invite anyone with any sort of interest in the troubled teen industry to speak freely without any censorship or moderation (though we do now also host a few moderated forums for specific purposes) If the general kant of opinion around here is against TC style treatment it's probably a fairly accurate reflection of the consensus among those of us with experience with it. In fact, as far as I can tell, the only way to bring about a pro-program social network is to vigilantly screen out any sort of dissent in much the same way as communications among program participants is so tightly controlled while in the Program.
Nobody here has truly tried to discuss anything - but have loaded entry after entry with threats.
Bullshit. Plain and simple. Many have given you good advice, like talk to your daughter directly, quit following Program advice, quit blaming her for everything, and for Christ's sake quit pretending that the kid ever had all the power in the relationship. This is a popular thread, Mike. Lots of different people reading and responding in various ways. If you choose to dismiss one person's thoughts because of another person's thoughts or deeds, well that's certainly your prerogative. But you know very well that it's a logical error.
On top of that, it's a little tempting, even for me, to rib you just a little simply because the things you're complaining about are NOthing compared to the kinds of emotional abuse your daughter is describing in her writing and which so many of us have endured. Despite myself, I do laugh just a little when the adults who actually have all the power in these situations cry like little girls over just a minuscule fraction of the kind of torment they have inflicted on their kids.
Things like telling my daughter that she should slit my throat in my sleep. I guess things like that are good and proper, while doing the best I can to raise my children is wrong.
While I strongly disagree with this sort of thinking and behavior, it is worth noting that a fairly significant number program vets/survivors do come out of it feeling just this way.
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Michael, you have to understand this is a highly biased web site. You will never see anyone asking a fellow survivor to take responsibility or accountability at all on this site or to validate their story. Many posters never finished the program they were in and have isolated themselves from their family and now continue to heap on hatred towards programs, parents and staff randomly without speaking a word about how they might have contributed to their own consequences in life.
Be it that you are a parent whose sole purpose was to find help for your daughter will not wipe away being a program parent. If they cannot find fault in their parents, program or staff then they must look inward for the cause and this will never happen so it must be the other three.
You will notice Katies thread will receive nothing but support and no one will question her behavior or life decisions which lead her to Cross Creek stay or any other treatment. There will be an attempt to isolate her from her family and try to slowly ease her into blaming her life on staff, parents and programs so she can spend her life filled with rage and hatred like they are instead of trying to make sense out of what happened to her and how she can turn it around and figure out what she wants and move forward in life. If people truly cared they may try to coach her more to resolve issues within herself and her family.
I wouldn’t worry about anyone coming to your residence because the police can trace the people down who post here via their IP if needed (like leaving your wallet at the scene of a robbery) and they all know that.
If someone threatened to trace down Katie and harass her I am sure many here would cry foul. Interesting how it works. You were open and honest and recorded your daily journal openly on the internet so no one can fault you for not doing the best you could or hiding like a coward like many here do when the criticize and then fail to discuss their argument or who they are and why they feel like they do.
Reading your blog there were not many options left for you after trying local services which turned out to be ineffective for Katie. Very few parents have had to face the parental challenges that you had to. So don’t let posters here succeed in making you feel you did the wrong thing. Whether it turned out good or not it in the end it was the right decision at the time.
Thank you for posting here. Hang in there.
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. Many posters never finished the program they were in and have isolated themselves from their family and now continue to heap on hatred towards programs, parents and staff randomly without speaking a word about how they might have contributed to their own consequences in life.
Oh, that's rich. Did you conduct a poll on this?
Because, of course, if you *finish* the program. That makes everything different, doesn't it? For instance, I did a full tour of duty, graduated and everything, and I can safely say that CEDU was a lovely place, full of rainbows, unicorns and ambrosia salad. I'm now an investment banker who, thanks to the hard work I did on myself at CEDU, avoided the economic cornholing that everyone else suffered in the fall. I also managed to save my family. We all live in boca raton, making a killing selling adirondack chairs to wealthy old folks who have no taste in lawn furniture.
This guy has been posting this sensitive private info for the past 4 years? And the lead role player, pr/an-tagonist just found out last week?
I'm a big, fat stupid-head, because it didn't even occur to me that this would be the case. Either that or I have alzheimers and forgot. My brain is riddled with holes.
I take back my previous posts.
Here's some unsolicited advice, Mike: take whatever money you have remaining (after having your wallet raped by wwasps) and get yourself some long term care insurance. I have a hunch you may need it when you're old.
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How can this site be biased when there's no censorship? Where does the bias come from?
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You will never see anyone asking a fellow survivor to take responsibility or accountability at all on this site or to validate their story. ...
You will notice Katies thread will receive nothing but support and no one will question her behavior or life decisions which lead her to Cross Creek stay or any other treatment. .
The “Life decisions that led her to Cross Creek”? The "life decisions" that she "needs to take responsibility for?
I thought people end up in Cross Creek because they are dreadfully mentally ill.
Oh right, that’s the cover you sickos use to hide the fact you imprison young people without due process up for being BAD.
Not because they are dreadfully mentally ill, but because they are BAD.BAD BAD.
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I thought people end up in Cross Creek because they are dreadfully mentally ill.
That isn’t accurate and if you are trying to be funny that isn’t very nice towards Katie. So far from reading her story I think it is fair to say she is not mentally ill. She seems to be a well adjusted young girl who is very good at articulating her feelings (at least on paper) since graduating from CCM. Prior to CCM she was having some serious difficulties with her family and suicide attempts but you cannot call this dreAdfully mental ill.
Take a look at their web site (http://http://www.crosscreekprogram.com/). It is for teens who are struggling at home and have had difficulty resolving their issues locally. Give the girl a break.
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You seriously believe that suicide attempts are disobedience and that you can discipline someone out of being suicidal?
Twisted!
People wind up incarcerated by the troubled parent industry for one reason and one reason only; because their parent or guardian or, in rare cases, juvenile courts have paid to have them incarcerated. Your belief that this form of 'treatment' is therapeutic does not make it so.
And no, I'm not about to blame a kid for decisions her parents made. That just wouldn't be logical.
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How can this site be biased when there's no censorship? Where does the bias come from?
If you choose a few threads a random you will see that the posters are biased towards being anti-program. If you polled on a normal day to determine how many are pro-program and how many are anti-program I think you would see a huge bias towards anti-program thinking. Probably as high as 99 to 1.
There is no relationship between bias and censorship. Fornits is well know for its (fairness to a fault) in allowing opinions of all kind to be tolerated to the point of near mutiny. No other web site can hold a candle to what has been accomplished here. I can name a few posters who could (and maybe should) have been easily silenced (or tossed out on their ass) resulting in making the majority of peoples lives much easier here and the site owner very popular by doing so. But the stubborn steadfast and sometimes nail biting decision to allow "all and any" opinions and filibusters to run unharnessed will be what proves fornits to be the "original" trail blazing true grass roots "open debate forum" for the discussion and exposure of the inner workings of the TTI. When abuse occurs within the industry it will be exposed and documented here first.
The bias come from the natural attraction towards discussion boards for those interested in the subject and getting their story heard and these are typically people who have been dealt a bad hand.
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You seriously believe that suicide attempts are disobedience and that you can discipline someone out of being suicidal?
Twisted!
People wind up incarcerated by the troubled parent industry for one reason and one reason only; because their parent or guardian or, in rare cases, juvenile courts have paid to have them incarcerated. Your belief that this form of 'treatment' is therapeutic does not make it so..
Antigen, as I take it, they aren't even PRETENDING WWASP provides "treatment."
That isn’t accurate and if you are trying to be funny that isn’t very nice towards Katie. So far from reading her story I think it is fair to say she is not mentally ill. She seems to be a well adjusted young girl who is very good at articulating her feelings (at least on paper) since graduating from CCM. Prior to CCM she was having some serious difficulties with her family and suicide attempts but you cannot call this dreAdfully mental ill.
Take a look at their web site. It is for teens who are struggling at home and have had difficulty resolving their issues locally. Give the girl a break."].
So, WWASP, appaerntly, does not treat mental illness. Glad,WHOever, you have dropped the pretense of advocating for a medicinal or therapeutic treatment facility.
Oddly, for an organization that does not supply treatment for mental illness, Cross Creek is registered as a lock down PSYCHIATRIC hospital.
http://74.125.93.104/search?q=cache:z44 ... clnk&gl=us (http://74.125.93.104/search?q=cache:z44pP9oD0UsJ:www.wwaspsinfo.net/crosscreek.html+%22cross+creek%22+psychiatric+hospital+utah+wwasp&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us)
A PSYCHIATRIC HOSPITAL that does NOT supply treatment for mental illness.
If they are not providing treatment for serious, life-threatening mental illness, under what possible justification do they hold people captive? I love how these people ADMIT these kids are NO different than kids not in lock-down These people are pure, unapologetic sociopaths.
Jesus. Just SUE THEIR ASS OFF, KATIE!!!! ::unhappy:: ::unhappy::
http://www.turleylaw.com (http://www.turleylaw.com)
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Great news, guest, thank you. You wouldn’t believe how many people on fornits believe that these programs are unaccredited and unlicensed. Not only are they licensed and accredited you have pointed out that Cross Creek has now expanded to offer hospital level services. A few years back they were licensed for residential treatment for kids 12 thru 17 with excellent potential but are headed for some serious problems. They provide a structured daily schedule, character building, educational seminars, health and physical fitness programs, emotional growth and personal development courses, recreation, individualized academic instruction, group, individual and family therapy. Also provided are many opportunities for community service and competitive sports.
They have their licenses posted on their web site, although they haven’t posted their expansion into a hospital level service yet.
Cross Creek (http://http://www.crosscreekprogram.com/ccc/private_school_information.asp)
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So the Utah rat pack is operating another "hospital"? (E-Gads!) You might want to do some digging into the history of Brightway if you want to know what kind of "hospital" WWASP operates.
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Great news, guest, thank you. You wouldn’t believe how many people on fornits believe that these programs are unaccredited and unlicensed. Not only are they licensed and accredited you have pointed out that Cross Creek has now expanded to offer hospital level services. A few years back they were licensed for residential treatment for kids 12 thru 17 with excellent potential but are headed for some serious problems. They provide a structured daily schedule, character building, educational seminars, health and physical fitness programs, emotional growth and personal development courses, recreation, individualized academic instruction, group, individual and family therapy. Also provided are many opportunities for community service and competitive sports.
They have their licenses posted on their web site, although they haven’t posted their expansion into a hospital level service yet.
Cross Creek (http://http://www.crosscreekprogram.com/ccc/private_school_information.asp)
The other guest was confused or not familiar with Cross Creek and the area. For anyone familiar with the area the closest lock down facility is in St. George, I believe. Does anyone else know of a facility which is closer to CCM?
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Great news, guest, thank you. You wouldn’t believe how many people on fornits believe that these programs are unaccredited and unlicensed. Not only are they licensed and accredited you have pointed out that Cross Creek has now expanded to offer hospital level services. A few years back they were licensed for residential treatment for kids 12 thru 17 with excellent potential but are headed for some serious problems. They provide a structured daily schedule, character building, educational seminars, health and physical fitness programs, emotional growth and personal development courses, recreation, individualized academic instruction, group, individual and family therapy. Also provided are many opportunities for community service and competitive sports.
They have their licenses posted on their web site, although they haven’t posted their expansion into a hospital level service yet.
Cross Creek (http://http://www.crosscreekprogram.com/ccc/private_school_information.asp)
Cross Creek is an organization that contractually insists it does not provide service for the mentally ill, but is licensed as psychiatric facility...while marketing itself as a school.... LOL. Yep, that's Great news!
Like I said, sue these people. They are sociopaths and psyschotic, completely
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Like I said, sue these people. They are sociopaths and psyschotic, completely
Yes, you are right, sue your family and the public school that bullied you TOO!! Maybe your brothers. Surround yourself with lawyers and people who don’t care about you, spend years being bitter and vengeful. Then when the money runs out and you have no skills or friends and family left you can seek state assistance and apply for a section 8 or have kids to increase your monthly payments. Its a wonderful life... but another option is to pursue a journalism career and focus on making yourself a happy life and surrounding yourself with people who care about you.
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Like I said, sue these people. They are sociopaths and psyschotic, completely
Yes, you are right, sue your family and the public school that bullied you TOO!! Maybe your brothers. Surround yourself with lawyers and people who don’t care about you, spend years being bitter and vengeful. Then when the money runs out and you have no skills or friends and family left you can seek state assistance and apply for a section 8 or have kids to increase your monthly payments. Its a wonderful life... but another option is to pursue a journalism career and focus on making yourself a happy life and surrounding yourself with people who care about you.
No, suing WWASP, the association that abducts, imrpisons,and torture swith methods near identical to the the thought reform prisons of Totalitarian China, societal-funationally and psychiatricly butchering its captives, is quite enough
http://www.turleylaw.com/ (http://www.turleylaw.com/)
Fill this out Katie. Its the first step towards justice. There is also a kid posting here who was imprisoned and tortured in 2008. You might even know him. He posts on antiwasp, and posts in the facility section. File criminal charges, also. Time is of the essence the faster you move, the greater the chance to put Robert Lichfield and Karr Farnsworth away for their crimes. Fill out an affadavid even if you are too beat to do anything more, right now
WWASPS Student – Information Sheet
""Please note: By you completing this information it does NOT constitute us accepting you as a client. You will not be represented by us unless and until you and the Turley Law Firm have both signed our contract of representation. We will contact you in the near future in the order that we have received your information.
Student's Full Name
Address
Apartment / Suite
City, State, Zip Code --Select-- Alabama Alaska Arizona Arkansas California Colorado Connecticut Delaware District Of Columbia Florida Georgia Hawaii Idaho Illinois Indiana Iowa Kansas Kentucky Louisiana Maine Maryland Massachusetts Michigan Minnesota Mississippi Missouri Montana Nebraska Nevada New Hampshire New Jersey New Mexico New York North Carolina North Dakota Ohio Oklahoma Oregon Pennsylvania Rhode Island South Carolina South Dakota Tennessee Texas Utah Vermont Virginia Washington West Virginia Wisconsin Wyoming
Phone
Email
Date of Birth
Current Age
Mother's Name
Father's Name
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
WWASPS Programs and Schools that you attended:
School Name
Approximate Beginning Date
Approximate Ending Date
Approximate Beginning Age
Approximate Ending Age
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
School Name
Approximate Beginning Date
Approximate Ending Date
Approximate Beginning Age
Approximate Ending Age
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
School Name
Approximate Beginning Date
Approximate Ending Date
Approximate Beginning Age
Approximate Ending Age
Add 2nd School or Program : Add 3rd School or Program
Do you have reason to believe you were abused in any way while at any WWASPS school and/or program?
Who signed the WWASPS contract on your behalf?
Who funded the WWASPS tuition and boarding fees paid on your behalf?
Did you receive a diploma or class credits from one of these schools?
What amount of money do you estimate that your parents paid for the WWASPS programs on your behalf?
$
If you have previously retained an attorney for any of your WWASPS related claims, please provide the attorney’s name and whether or not this attorney still represents you.""
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Katie, by all means consider contacting Turley about your case. But If you think you will want to pursue a case, you should probably stop blogging about it. I know this would be difficult with others bloging about you, but the lawyers like to do the talking for their clients - and they don't blog on forums. They say their piece in court. Court is actually much better, in many ways, but waiting for it takes patience.
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Just out of curiosity, how many of you actually read Mike & Diane Carter's blog from start to finish? I did and what I saw what a family in extreme dysfunction without a plan or direction. First let me say, I do not believe I have ever really seen a FUNCTIONAL family...lol! All families are fucked up in one way or another. As parents we take our baggage from our family of origin and then bring it into our NEW family...the trickle down effect.
What saddens me the most is that THIS FAMILY is being viciously attacked for their treatment of poor Katie. Poor Katie CREATED her own demise. What about the suffering of Katie's brothers? It would be one thing if Katie was an only child, but she is NOT! We can all look at this issue as one sided, but it is not. On one hand we have Katie - with her issues - on the other we have the rest of the family suffering the ill effects of an out of control child. Is this fair? Now there is a kid who deserves a BIG wake up call! It will take time and professional assistance to repair this family. Encouraging her to engage in a lawsuit - is this sound advice from someone who does not know you.
Once again, if you READ the WHOLE blog, you discovered this is a splintered family that is striving to keep their heads above water. I would be damned if I let my kid get away with her outbursts and "fits." When you are living in MY house you play by MY rules or find another place to live. No 18 year old kid is going run my house into disarray - NOT A CHANCE IN HELL! Not when their are other family members involved and living in the family home. I refuse to have my home turned into a place filled with bitterness, resentments, and out of control antics. If you can't behave at my dinner table, then you don't deserve to be there with the family. There is ONE TEAM in town and it is not theirs (Katie's). Play ball or go join another team.
I have also read all the Katie's story posts and feel quiet up to date on where we are now. Be careful when playing "doctor" giving advice unless you have a damn good plan to back it up AND you know the advice is medically sound and will be supported by an MD.
Really...after reading it all - both sides, my only conundrum is WHY they kept her at CCM so long without the proper progress (FTT = failure to thrive) and just kept pouring more money into something that WASN'T WORKING. If I had not seen progress in the first 3-6 months, my kid would have been transferred somewhere where they could help him. Which is what he and I did. We found a place of healing that helped our family through the re-integration phase - after he was released and came home. We have a very tight "aftercare plan" that he wrote and he works that plan and follows through on what he says he will do. We don't have WARS anymore and I pick my battles carefully. We also work closely with a "specialized" therapist that helps us over the road block and shows us the "detour" signs we can't see sometimes.
Me heart goes out to that whole family and the have been vilified enough. When do you start to encourage HEALING and building bridges and not walls?? You guys are firing Katie all up and that is only going to make a BAD situation worse. But nobody really cares if you are fanning the flames of a total breakdown of this family. Can't you see this? It is sick that people derive pleasure from watching other families implode.
Our children want our love, attention and approval...that is how they develop their own self-esteem
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Poor Katie CREATED her own demise.
Jesus christ, she ain't dead. The fact that you conflate death with the tough times she experienced as a teen speaks volumes.
And yes, I actually started at their blog from the beginning. One thing I do agree with you about is that the whole situation is indeed sad. Sad that the program insinuates itself into private family matters and rips it apart. Not sure how that is an improvement over what was going on prior, save to give the parents a mini-vacation from their kid who is having problems.
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I used the word "demise" as a noun and not a verb. Demise = end or failure of enterprise or institution. I think the term is appropriate in this instance. I equate her demise with the untreated depression. If they got decent help a little sooner and dealt with katie's difficulties when she was younger, she might not be in the f'd up place she is now - living in a home where she is not wanted. Nothing worse than a kid can feel - unwanted.
Really sucks!
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Not sure why you would think I meant demise as a verb, since it's the predicate of the sentence. But yes, it means death as a noun, too, just so you know.
If they got decent help a little sooner and dealt with katie's difficulties when she was younger, she might not be in the f'd up place she is now
That's weird. Didn't you just say before that:
Katie CREATED her own demise
...ok. So who is it then?
How about colonel mustard in the drawing room with a candlestick?
(It's always col. mustard. Dastardly fellow.)
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Wow, this thread is really driving the sick fucks out of the woodwork. (Or maybe the same one. Hard to tell on Fornits. Programmies are so similar in writing style that they'd instantly get nailed for proxy-samefagging on any of the chans.)
Your conflation of what YOU want and actual psychiatric disorders is amazing. To this assclown, "MY HOUSE MY RULES WAAAAAHHHH" (Seriously, how is this adult behavior?) and real mental problems are the same thing. There is a mental problem here, but it's not your kid's and never was.
And most of us have been strongly recommending that Katie GTFO that place at the earliest available opportunity. Family? I don't see a family here. I see a sick fuck, his trophy wife, three seldom-mentioned brothers who never stuck up for their sister apparently, and his badly abused daughter trying to make sense of any of it.
Katie: IT DOESN'T. THAT'S THE POINT. Get the HELL out of there, NOW, and go LIVE for a few years and you'll know what we mean! And find a fucking lawyer because WWASPS is apparently terrified of more people joining the suit and it looks like you're in a good position to help end their hellholes.
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Yes, "demise" used as a noun can ALSO mean death. I did not use it in THAT sense. Look, they already knew there were problems with Katie when she was younger and then the abandonment of her mother only made things worse. All I am saying is that a little "early intervention" might have averted this whole situation. Personally, I think all blended families need counseling - at least in the beginning. Once Katie got older and started acting out - this is where the intervention should have taken place. The past is but the past.
Did you happen to catch the insinuation that Katie likes to be the center of attention? Well, she certainly has a captive audience here on Fornits! Keep that attention coming...in truckloads. Mr. Carter and his family were played by WWASP just like most every other WWASP family. Surely she needs help to sort out all that has happened to her over the last 3 years and I hope her family can find a good therapist for her AND for the rest of the family.
Who's fault is it that Katie kept ending up back in Orange???? Her parents? Her brothers? No....KATIE!
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Who's fault is it that Katie kept ending up back in Orange???? Her parents? Her brothers? No....KATIE!
On what plane of existence is this anything but psychosis, and are the residents there immune to smallpox?
:clown:
It's pretty sad the good guy died at the end of Silence of the Lambs, huh? Whose fault was it that the woman stayed in the bottom of the well? The guy keeping her down there? No... HERSELF!
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I think the name of this thread should be changed to "thoughts of WWASPS staff"
btw... I'm posting this cause I want attention, which is sooo fucked up, because nobody else in the world would want something so essential.
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www.Fornits.com
Turning dysfunctional families into a spectator sport, since it started partying like it's 1999
Tired of sitting on the sidelines? Can't stop screaming at the T.V. during ABC's "The Supernanny?" We have got the forum for you. Get off the bench and join the game, and tell families how you think they should raise their kids. Better than Wife Swap because you have your say! You can interact directly with dysfunctional families and tell them whatever you'd like. Regret not getting your PhD in psychiatry or psychology? Now is your chance to live out your dream without one minute inside of school. You can even sign your name as a Doctor of Psychiatry, nobody will be the wiser! Come give it a shot at fornits.com, where everybody is an expert.
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Who's fault is it that Katie kept ending up back in Orange???? Her parents? Her brothers? No....KATIE!
On what plane of existence is this anything but psychosis, and are the residents there immune to smallpox?
:clown:
It's pretty sad the good guy died at the end of Silence of the Lambs, huh? Whose fault was it that the woman stayed in the bottom of the well? The guy keeping her down there? No... HERSELF!
Very poor analogy. Katie knew each time she broke the rules that she would have to go back to orange, so she had a choice.
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"Did you happen to catch the insinuation that Katie likes to be the center of attention"
Did you miss that part, that her father has been writting a public blog on her for three years?!?
So SHE likes to be a centre of attention...weird.
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It's pretty sad the good guy died at the end of Silence of the Lambs, huh?
That is rich! Typical survivor response. The poor guy at the end was the victim. The bad people were his parents. If they had funded his sex change operation he wouldn’t have to kill young girls to feed his sickness LOL. Thanks for that one guest, classic. If he had lived someone from here would be trying to get him to sue someone so he wouldn’t have to work again!!LOL.
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There was a time that if you spilled hot coffee in your lap you would say “Wow, that was clumsy of me”… now it is”That wasn’t my fault, I need to sue someone”. When I ever saw that person posting on fornits all ready equipped with lawyers names and phone numbers for kids to sue someone else for their own fuck-ups I almost died.
That my man is the true classic post!
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"Did you happen to catch the insinuation that Katie likes to be the center of attention"
Did you miss that part, that her father has been writting a public blog on her for three years?!?
So SHE likes to be a centre of attention...weird.
His blog was meant to be private...not out their for public consumption....ya'll knew that when you posted it! So he wasn't so careful in protecting his and Katie's privacy...or that of her family, but for God sakes, this guy was doing everything he could to make things "work" for his kid. There is no feeling more desperate than that of a parent watching their own child self destruct - sitting helplessly on the side lines. Would I have left my kid is a program where she failed to progress? No, but I am not HIM or THEM! None of us are, so who are we to judge? The man wrote from his heart. Of course he talks about finances - this was a HUGE expense for the family overhead every month. I sure would not piss away $4,400..5,400 per month..whatever the dude was paying if I did not see any results or things improving. We must all live & die by our own decisions - he is the one that has to look at himself in the mirror everyday and ask himself, "Have I done enough for her?"
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www.Fornits.com
Turning dysfunctional families into a spectator sport, since it started partying like it's 1999
Tired of sitting on the sidelines? Can't stop screaming at the T.V. during ABC's "The Supernanny?" We have got the forum for you. Get off the bench and join the game, and tell families how you think they should raise their kids. Better than Wife Swap because you have your say! You can interact directly with dysfunctional families and tell them whatever you'd like. Regret not getting your PhD in psychiatry or psychology? Now is your chance to live out your dream without one minute inside of school. You can even sign your name as a Doctor of Psychiatry, nobody will be the wiser! Come give it a shot at fornits.com, where everybody is an expert.
You win the prize!!! This is like watching some sappy soap opera. Don't you people have jobs or do you just spend the day on myspace/facebook? How you people can insinuate yourselves into this girl's family is scary. She didn't fair to well with the last people she trusted.
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Wow, this thread is really driving the sick fucks out of the woodwork. (Or maybe the same one. Hard to tell on Fornits. Programmies are so similar in writing style that they'd instantly get nailed for proxy-samefagging on any of the chans.)
Your conflation of what YOU want and actual psychiatric disorders is amazing. To this assclown, "MY HOUSE MY RULES WAAAAAHHHH" (Seriously, how is this adult behavior?) and real mental problems are the same thing. There is a mental problem here, but it's not your kid's and never was.
And most of us have been strongly recommending that Katie GTFO that place at the earliest available opportunity. Family? I don't see a family here. I see a sick fuck, his trophy wife, three seldom-mentioned brothers who never stuck up for their sister apparently, and his badly abused daughter trying to make sense of any of it.
Katie: IT DOESN'T. THAT'S THE POINT. Get the HELL out of there, NOW, and go LIVE for a few years and you'll know what we mean! And find a fucking lawyer because WWASPS is apparently terrified of more people joining the suit and it looks like you're in a good position to help end their hellholes.
I agree, Katie. katie, rto "leave them alone" and like sickos, wwasp holding you prisoner for 3 years without due process and the torture they plied you with there is a-ok. But juries see these things other ways .
Trust me, suing WWASP is the only way to get justice. The mental illness, the loss of 3 years of your life, the loss of all you could have accomplished, the difficulties you will have catching up and making up for lost time, the despair and pain, they have no remorse for.
Sue WWASP. Follow the links. Hook up with that recent grad in "facilities" and Anti-wasp. Money is all they want even if they have to wring it by twisting innocent bodies into nothing, take it from them. detroy them. GET JUSTICE
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What is this "due process" that the kids are being denied? Does anyone have a link to this and how this is being denied? Does this only apply to certain states? Fornits is the first place I have heard of this.
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www.Fornits.com
Turning dysfunctional families into a spectator sport, since it started partying like it's 1999
Get off the bench and join the game, and tell families how you think they should raise their kids. Better than Wife Swap because you have your say! You can interact directly with dysfunctional families and tell them whatever you'd like. Regret not getting your PhD in psychiatry or psychology? Now is your chance to live out your dream without one minute inside of school. You can even sign your name as a Doctor of Psychiatry, nobody will be the wiser!
You seem to think diagnosing and treating families without having medical credentials or following standard protocal is a bad thing? Yet you are OK with WWASP doing precisely that. Perhaps if we started abducted families to deliver our "treatment" and charging the state for that "service" you would be more supportive.
WWASPite, you will loose all your assets in the class action and never will a loss be more profitable for man kind
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Who's fault is it that Katie kept ending up back in Orange???? Her parents? Her brothers? No....KATIE!
On what plane of existence is this anything but psychosis, and are the residents there immune to smallpox?
:clown:
It's pretty sad the good guy died at the end of Silence of the Lambs, huh? Whose fault was it that the woman stayed in the bottom of the well? The guy keeping her down there? No... HERSELF!
Very poor analogy. Katie knew each time she broke the rules that she would have to go back to orange, so she had a choice.
IT DIDN'T PUT THE LOTION ON ITS SKIN
IT'S ITS FAULT IT GOT THE HOSE AGAIN
What is this "due process" that the kids are being denied? Does anyone have a link to this and how this is being denied? Does this only apply to certain states? Fornits is the first place I have heard of this.
:roflmao: :roflmao:
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whew! its been a crazy roller coaster trying to catch up with this thread and all I have to say is"
What? are you kidding me?... fuck this! awww shiiit. wait! I wanna get off!! shit shit shit AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH. well that was lame.
No but seriously, Mike don't you think your being a bit of a panzie? Dont flatter yourself, us crazies don't give two squirting shits about you and your cunt of a wife. We most definitely won't be coming after you with pickled babies... the only thing we keep in jars is our... "medication".
Furthermore, I think you seriously missed the point here, we aren't targeting you, we are exposing you for targeting your daughter. Just as much as you have the right to publicly defame your daughter, we have the right to publicly defame you. I know you may believe in this instance the eye for an eye philosophy is a bit inconvenient but all things considered you really should consider yourselves lucky that we are the ones bringing this up instead of Katie finding out down the road and having no one to "talk it out with" resorting to an extreme that you might find much much more inconvenient. As Ginger mentioned, some program survivors have resorted to much much worse.
I am not excusing any of the comments here that have crossed the boundaries of the original intentions of reaching out to Katie, in fact that's why I try to stay as civil as my self respect will allow, however I think you need to take a bit of "accountability" yourself and ask yourself how YOU created this disaster.
Ill give you some cliff notes.
You completely alienated your daughter in order to pursue a relationship with a woman who has been abusive toward your children.
You failed to properly identify her disorder, and refused to educate yourself how to accommodate her needs.
You assisted in the psychological torture of your child and when that didn't magically cure her, you opted to have her imprisoned under the assumption that WWASP would fix her and she would return an obedient, appreciative and non suicidal little girl.
Now you defend these actions by continuing to blame her, berate her and further alienate her from your family.[/list]
aaaaaaaaaand exactly how well is all this working out for you again? well I guess based on results you have exactly what you intend right?.... lolololol
well at least SOMEONE benefited from the 30 year mortgage your paying right now... yea that would be good ol Bob Litchfield. If I were you I would demand a fucking refund.
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What is this "due process" that the kids are being denied? Does anyone have a link to this and how this is being denied? Does this only apply to certain states? Fornits is the first place I have heard of this.
No one here understands what it means. But it sounds good to say it to each other. Gives us the feeling that we were denied something or were "entitled" to or something we didnt get and therefore validates our hatred towards our parents and siblings and programs.
Ya need fuel to keep this hatred going. We will take where ever we can get it even if we dont understand it.
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Clearly it is long past time to break out the Zyklon-B.
They won't get the benefit of a trial, or even charges against them. We'll simply round the programmies up and give them an extra-strength of German delousing agent. It's just a shame there's no gold in fillings anymore.
Silly programmies. They thought they were entitled to a lawyer, or rights, or even to live. Whoops!
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The Fifth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution reads:
“ No person shall be ... deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law .... ”
Due process is stated in the constitution maintaining that no American citizen shall be incarcerated without first having their day in court. In most cases these children were not even charged with crimes, so you should consider in the eyes of the law as well as our personal hindsight the punishment doesn't fit.
We may exert some entitlement in this area, but only because we were denied this right, among many many others in the program. Some also being the right to reach out to contact the authorities or child protective services when we were being abused. I was certainly not granted any of my constitutional rights as I was also held in Mexico (without proper documentation I might add) and was subjected to extreme amounts of torture simply because there was no authority over the program and they knew they could basically do anything they wanted to us because they already had our parents permission to abuse us.
Entitlement to life and freedom is what America is about, and just because your child isn't 18 yet doesn't mean he doesn't deserve the same constitutional and human rights as you. Parental rights don't over shadow the welfare of children and once the parent makes a choice that puts a child in danger, duress and violates a child's right to seek counsel and protection from authorities the only thing a child can do is cling to the law, and their inalienable rights to protect them.
Don't confuse entitlement to human rights with selfishness... they are two completely different things. I have been out of my mothers home since I was 17 years old and although my mother has assisted me in many ways since then, I have never once felt myself entitled to anything from her. I am however an advocate for human rights and the freedoms that America was built on. The fact that you confuse these two completely different subject matter only proves further the kind of thinking that drives parents to be abusive to their children. Your children are not your slaves, prisoners, or your enemy and the more you treat them as so the more you will create a war zone within your home. I'm honestly wondering if any of you have heard of parenting classes?... Or why you are so stubborn to refuse to be open to the fact that your parenting styles may not be conducive to a healthy household environment. Why is making changes for your child out of the question when you expect them to automatically change for you? Sounds like entitlement to me lol.
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For a long period of American history, slavery was legal.
People will eventually begin to realize parents paying for thugs to intimidate their kids should be illegal, and it will be made so.
Maybe some grad student in 2246 will be researching the 'history of parental financed incarceration based thought reform in the late 20th and early 21st centuries' , and come across fornits web forum on the wayback machine of the future.
im willing to bet they will be just as confuzzled by the likes of dianne carter and thewho as any sane person of today would be.
laws might change, but morality does not.
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For a long period of American history, slavery was legal.
People will eventually begin to realize parents paying for thugs to intimidate their kids should be illegal, and it will be made so.
Maybe some grad student in 2246 will be researching the 'history of parental financed incarceration based thought reform in the late 20th and early 21st centuries' , and come across fornits web forum on the wayback machine of the future.
im willing to bet they will be just as confuzzled by the likes of dianne carter and thewho as any sane person of today would be.
laws might change, but morality does not.
Since people are so confused about Due process here's a link
5http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4GGLL_enUS305US305&q=isac
And it does apply to people under 18, its just not enforced regularly. Every once in a while it is. For example, the officer who found out Pathway was holding humans against their will ordered them to release all who wanted to leave, and those who wanted to go, left.
The same thing happened in the raids on WWASP facilites overseas.
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So basically every child is incarcerated against their will. If a reporter walked up to a daycare center and asked a little boy if he would rather be here or home with his family and the child says "I want to be home with my mom and dad". Should they shut the place down and arrest everyone? Should the reporter open the gate and let the children run free?
At what ages should these children be allowed to decide for themselves that they dont need to be held behind a fenced in area with no privacy? age 6...9...10...14....18?
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So basically every child is incarcerated against their will. If a reporter walked up to a daycare center and asked a little boy if he would rather be here or home with his family and the child says "I want to be home with my mom and dad". Should they shut the place down and arrest everyone? Should the reporter open the gate and let the children run free?
At what ages should these children be allowed to decide for themselves that they dont need to be held behind a fenced in area with no privacy? age 6...9...10...14....18?
Fuck you.
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So basically every child is incarcerated against their will. If a reporter walked up to a daycare center and asked a little boy if he would rather be here or home with his family and the child says "I want to be home with my mom and dad". Should they shut the place down and arrest everyone? Should the reporter open the gate and let the children run free?
At what ages should these children be allowed to decide for themselves that they dont need to be held behind a fenced in area with no privacy? age 6...9...10...14....18?
Oh yea because the program and daycare are just SOOOO much alike...
lol. honestly give it up, I tend to think giving this troll title of the infamous wooter is a title he doesn't deserve. His analogies are getting more and more ridiculous, either the wooters going senile or this copycat has got a ways to go before he could ever fill the shoes of thewho. :twofinger:
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I tend to think giving this troll title of the infamous wooter is a title he doesn't deserve.
TheWho is not infamous, or clever, or to admired in any way. If you had been here while he trolled under "TheWho" name, you'd instantly realize it's the same person, and probably wouldn't waste your time.
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So basically every child is incarcerated against their will. If a reporter walked up to a daycare center and asked a little boy if he would rather be here or home with his family and the child says "I want to be home with my mom and dad". Should they shut the place down and arrest everyone? Should the reporter open the gate and let the children run free?
At what ages should these children be allowed to decide for themselves that they dont need to be held behind a fenced in area with no privacy? age 6...9...10...14....18?
Oh yea because the program and daycare are just SOOOO much alike...
lol. honestly give it up, I tend to think giving this troll title of the infamous wooter is a title he doesn't deserve. His analogies are getting more and more ridiculous, either the wooters going senile or this copycat has got a ways to go before he could ever fill the shoes of thewho. :twofinger:
See, tough question, so you must run away and call foul (it must be a trolltherefore I dont need to discuss the topic).
Thats okay, I made my point which is all I wanted to do. I didnt expect verbal agreement.
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femanon, before you waste any more time with whooter,
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=23881&p=293755&hilit=daycare#p293755 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=23881&p=293755&hilit=daycare#p293755)
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I have read thru as much as I could from where I left off. The issue of “due process of law” does not apply to these programs because they are not technically being committed (at least to the programs that I have checked into). I spoke to admissions at Cross Creek and they like to have a 72 hour evaluation done on the child before being admitted and they can provide places in the area where this can be done or you can choose your own. So at least for the state of Utah the kids can transition into a program after they have been evaluated and attain a signature from their legal guardian(s) to oversee their child. There may be places which are required to go thru a commitment process and get a court order from a judge, but I have not seen these yet. This is where the due process would come in that a few were asking about.
As far as posting private emails on the internet there is no law which covers this that I could find, but it is surely a breach of trust. As for the children in the program, what I found was as long as the letter was not sealed and addressed then the child or family cannot take any action against the school for disseminating the information or making it public. In a private setting, which does not have an inhouse post office, an envelope which has been sealed and addressed can take on a similar legal status as being posted, but this would take some argument and would depend on the contents of the letter.
So based on this finding Femanons exposure and the programs exposure are both on the same level of breach of trust.
I see Katie has come back to post more of her story. I was worried that maybe she got scared off.
NeilW
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You left off two posts ago, theWho.
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You left off two posts ago, theWho.
Who does drive the google rankings up though. :twofinger: :rofl: :rocker:
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So based on this finding Femanons exposure and the programs exposure are both on the same level of breach of trust.
NeilW
I fail to see what kind of trust I and this woman ever built or agreed on. She did not specifically ask me to keep this message private and the way she wrote it really had me convinced that she wrote it to Fornits, not just me. Furthermore the content of that letter did not imply she intended to build any trust and privacy between us, she only intended to insult Katie and fornits for supporting her in writing her story. If the content was not of an abusive nature and she asked me to respect her privacy I most definitely would not have posted it, however that was not the case.
In the program I DID address and seal my letters and they were still intercepted. In fact I got in trouble for it, and my case manager ordered us not to seal our letters after that. She also told me not to address my letters because my mom had moved and I was not allowed to have her new address. I did not want my letters to be read and I told my case manager that that is exactly why i sealed my letters, I was then given a cat 2 for insubordination and sent to detention. SO I really dont think these are even close to the same situation, or breach of trust. However I will say whether the program had any trust in us or not, it is still a US law that mail is not to be intercepted.
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So based on this finding Femanons exposure and the programs exposure are both on the same level of breach of trust.
NeilW
I fail to see what kind of trust I and this woman ever built or agreed on. She did not specifically ask me to keep this message private and the way she wrote it really had me convinced that she wrote it to Fornits, not just me. Furthermore the content of that letter did not imply she intended to build any trust and privacy between us, she only intended to insult Katie and fornits for supporting her in writing her story. If the content was not of an abusive nature and she asked me to respect her privacy I most definitely would not have posted it, however that was not the case.
In the program I DID address and seal my letters and they were still intercepted. In fact I got in trouble for it, and my case manager ordered us not to seal our letters after that. She also told me not to address my letters because my mom had moved and I was not allowed to have her new address. I did not want my letters to be read and I told my case manager that that is exactly why i sealed my letters, I was then given a cat 2 for insubordination and sent to detention. SO I really dont think these are even close to the same situation, or breach of trust. However I will say whether the program had any trust in us or not, it is still a US law that mail is not to be intercepted.
For the love of god, why are you letting thewhoASPEN troll manipulate the discussion? Ignore the transparent douche. :beat: :- :lala: :deal: & if you want to debate the ethicality of femanon publshing Diane Carter's hate speech about her poor step daughter start a new thread!! >:( :guesswho: ::poke:: ::deadhorse:: :jawdrop: :deal: :eek: :shamrock:
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::OMG:: ::puke::
Wow...that is really, really sad.
It has been a little less than four years since the troubles really began with Katie. Therapy, three inpatient trips to local hospital teen programs, the summer with her mother, and then moving her to the school. Ups and downs there, but most of it being her resistance to the program - she is nothing if not stubborn.
Diane and I were given a great gift in the adult seminars, graduating Discovery, Focus, and the Keys to Success to become Keyholders, though because the actual 'keys' are now given out only at PC IV we will never receive ours. Giving her brothers the opportunity to go to Discovery, and Focus for the younger ones (coming up next month at the Youth Leadership Camp they will be attending) will, I hope, help them as they get older. Ugh, I think I'm gonna be sick. They put the younger siblings through shit like Discovery? Assholes.
I do believe that Katie would have only have gotten in more trouble had we not sent her to the program. I do fear that she would have gotten pregnant, and probably gotten into drugs, as well as much more alcohol. And she could have ended up dead. Jeeez, this kid wasn't even doing drugs.
Have we stopped that? I dunno. Postponed it definitely. We have tried to give her tools to live her life, and she has fought us on that. She will not graduate the program, but that is her choice. She will have spent exactly 34 months there when I pick her up - not the longest stay by any means, but way past any 'average', if that existed.
I hope that someone has been able to benefit from my ramblings here. I have tried to be open and honest about what we are going through - just for other parents who might be going through the same thing. I plan to continue to update this, though I don't know the frequency (and eventually she will be on her own, one way or another, and there will be nothing left on my part but the worrying).
So thanks to anyone who has joined us for this journey, and it continues on.
Posted by puggimer at 10:04 AM 1 comments Links to this post
Wednesday, June 18, 2008
Firming up plans
I bought the airline tickets yesterday to go pick up Katie. While not the appropriate blog for it, I am amazed at how some airlines price things - wanting to charge more for a one-way ticket than for a roundtrip!
Anyway, I fly out on July 22nd and back with her on the 23rd. Our flight out of Las Vegas is at 3, and it is a two hour drive (plus time change in our favor), so we will have to be out of there no later than noon, preferably by 11:00 am. Since I get in early enough to actually get some sleep (I get into Vegas a little afte 2 on Tuesday, putting me in Utah easily by 6 (as opposed to getting in at 12:30 am as one flight had it - putting me in Utah just in time for dawn!)) then I can be at the school first thing - I'm not sure how long it will take. So the countdown begins. 15 days until she turns 18, 35 days until she is home.
One thing we have to do is get them an exit plan for when she turns 18 - if she decides to just up an leave. We don't want to tell her we are picking her up - but I really don't want to end up having to get last minute bus tickets a week before the flight, and waste the airline tickets.
We have to get her room ready - her older brother is in it for the summer, and we need to clean his stuff out and make room for her. He moves into an apartment in August, so will have about three weeks of bunking with his younger brother.
This is going to take some adjustment. She hasn't lived at home since she left in May of 2005 - she will have been gone (except for one week) for 38 months, 34 of them in the program). A cost of roughly $150K. And that doesn't include any of the travel or seminar costs for Diane and I. A big part of me wonders if it was worth it. Is worth it - I'll be paying on the student loans for the next 30 years - which is basically the rest of my life. But I guess the real question is what would have happened if we hadn't done this? Your daughter would have grown up, like most kids.
Posted by puggimer at 7:11 AM 0 comments Links to this post
Monday, June 02, 2008
Change in plans / expectations
After our call with 'S' last week, Diane and I have talked a bit. It really looks like that we won't be doing PC III in June, and I'm feeling now that even if she were to make level 4 I don't want her special case'd in. I think that she has gotten all she is going to get out of the school. One more month won't make any difference, except for costing us money we truly don't have.
So we are going to talk to 'B' on Thursday as normal, but our plans have changed. Katie turns 18 a month from tomorrow. We are paid up through July 22nd - but we are probably going to go get her the weekend before that. I just don't see where spending another 4200 bucks for another month will make any difference - and we can use that to instead actually play for the tickets out there to get her, as well as get her a new wardrobe (she has lost 30 lbs, and it has been three years since she was home, so when we cleaned out her room we basically didn't keep ANY of her old clothes (or much of anything else)).
I'm a bit bothered that Diane and I will never receive our Keys as Keyholders since they have now moved that to PC IV, but there is absolutely nothing I can do about that either.
We talked with one of our keys family members this weekend whose son graduated from another school, and that helped a bit as well. So it looks like probably 7 weeks to go. Of course that assumes she doesn't decide to walk out on her birthday, but I don't see that happening. If she does, it will be a bus ticket home for her, but otherwise pretty much the same plan.
We are going to work up a contract, and will make it clear that she can either follow our rules or live somewhere else. There will be some simple no-tolerance points (such as violence, cutting, etc), but it is the little ones that are more difficult that we need to work on the next few weeks.
Posted by puggimer at 7:21 AM 0 comments Links to this post
Friday, May 23, 2008
It doesn't seem to be getting any easier
I've been very frustrated lately. Katie is still not working like she should, and it has been 32 months as of today. She, of course, doesn't know that she only has three months left there before all our money is gone.
Right now it really looks like we will be going to PC III in June, though she won't have fully earned it. To fully earn it she has to be level 5 by next week, and she is still at 3. However when we talked with 'B' last night before she was on the call he said that it would probably be much better for us to do it in June instead of August, as if we did it in August then we would bring her home immediately afterward, which would not be good.
I haven't been writing much ( and haven't gotten many letters either), and again she called me on that. I'm bothered, both by the fact that I am not wanting to write much, and by the idea of her calling me on this, when she has been sitting there for so long.
At one point she asked about my expectations, and I said that I gave up any expectations long ago - letting this be her program. It came through that any expectations had been missed quite some time ago though. She is getting real concerned about turning 18, and asked what our plans were. In response I simply asked if I had every said anything to her other than that she has to graduate, and she said no.
I'm a bit concerned about her coming home, but it is still three months off, and I haven't really worked it up in my head yet. Her older brother moves into his first apartment the weekend before that.
To top things off, it appears that AirTran has stopped their non-stop flights between Dayton and Vegas - which is a real bummer, because that means the airline tickets we are going to need for that this summer may be twice as much as we were expecting - could be close to a thousand for a pair - OUCH!!!
Posted by puggimer at 2:14 PM 0 comments Links to this post
Thursday, May 08, 2008
Another heavy sigh
We had our call with Katie and B again tonight, and unfortunately it wasn't a good or happy one. She is once again not working, and once again falling into the same old patterns. It gets very frustrating dealing with the same thing over and over again.
The irony is that it isn't big things, but her responses to them. She now claims to be writing a novel - which is an excuse to not be working. She tried to manipulate several people today in order to check out a book from the library, after she had already gone for the day. Dumb, stupid little things. And then denying she did them.
*sigh*
Posted by puggimer at 7:28 PM 0 comments Links to this post
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This was another good thread.
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epic bump