Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Anonymous on August 08, 2003, 01:26:00 PM
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Can we stay on the topic that this forum is for? I know some can't, but I think we need to stay on track for the sake of the kids, not a crazy woman's vendetta.
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That statement sounds like another attempt by PURE to take the focus off of them. Good try, Sue/PURE
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Anon you wrote:
Can we stay on the topic that this forum is for? I know some can't, but I think we need to stay on track for the sake of the kids, not a crazy woman's vendetta.
I am just as concerned, no wait I am more concerned, about the kids than you seem to be. I do not want to see them being pulled from WWASP programs just to be sent to yet another unregulated and possibly abusive program at the hands of Sue and PURE, Inc.
Let me explain why this is an issue that falls under the "Teen Help" topic. PURE, Inc's president hosts a listserv of parents who are fighting to close WWASP schools. Sue uses these parents who are on her listserv to reach out to parents of kids in WWASP schools because she herself can not. (I am not sure if that is because of a judges orders or not.) However, I do know that she herself told me that and I have saved that email in which it she stated just that.
I feel for that reason, parents whose children are in WWASP programs need to be aware of that. If they decide to pull their children I want to be sure they do not fall prey to her and her associates. I do not want them being pulled from one abusive program only to be placed in another.
Parents need ALL of the facts. Then they will be able to make an informed decision as to what is in the best interest of their child.
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The previous post was mine.
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READ THE TERMS OF USE/DISCLAIMER ON THE PURE WEBSITE.
http://www.helpyourteens.com/terms_of_use.html (http://www.helpyourteens.com/terms_of_use.html)
:nworthy:
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I agree with everything you just said except being pulled from one abusive school to be admitted to another. Again, show me PROVEN cases of abuse at WWASPS, not just some whiny kid saying they were abused just to get their parents to bring them home. Newspaper articles are not proof, as we well know. And the posters on this board are not proof either.
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Well I define abuse obviously differently then you define abuse.
I think it is abusive to cut off communication with parent and child.
I think it is abusive to be forced into isolation and placed in positions of pain.
I think denying people of their feelings and their abiltiy to express their feelings abusive.
I think it is abusive to take away a persons right to privacy.
This is only a few of the things that occured at Dundee that I think were abusive. All of these things have been admitted to by childre who favor the program and children who oppose the program.
Like I have said in the past, my boys did not witness beatings. They did witness restraints and they themselves were put in isolation. One was put in isolation for trying to fix a window air conditioner. The other was put into isolaltion for wearing his shoes in the dorm. Neither one were a risk to themselves or to others. That is abuse!
[ This Message was edited by: Carey on 2003-08-08 11:43 ]
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Cut off communication between parent and child?? Letters/faxes are never cut off. Any parent can ask to speak to their child, but who would want to in the beginning? It's only a recommendation that the kids earn the "priviledge" of phone calls.
Denying expression of feelings, etc. Carey, where did this come from? These kids are encouraged to dig deep to uncover the feelings they are masking with their former drug/alcohol/high risk behaviors. They do this in group and in seminars and with their therapist. They lose points for bragging about their former behavior outside of these situations. I guess some would consider that abusive. I don't.
Take away the right to privacy? They were the ones that took that away from themselves by abusing it at home.
I have no experience of Dundee, but do of another WWASP school. So I can't speak about the OP and the set of rules they had. My experiences were that I didn't always agree with the rules, but I don't always agree with the rules in my place of employment either. Breaking the rules in either place, have consequences that we are aware of, no matter if we agree or not.
While I do agree that changes need to be made at Dundee, I would hate to see it turn into an unstructured, whatever the kids want, type of program. WWASPS schools are always open to change what isn't working to change behaviors... from personal experience.
It's been interesting to read that some think it changes personalities! It's about changing choices.
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Cut off communication between parent and child?? Letters/faxes are never cut off. Any parent can ask to speak to their child, but who would want to in the beginning? It's only a recommendation that the kids earn the "priviledge" of phone calls.
I am speaking from personal experince on this one. I WOULD WANT TO!!!! YOU MAY NOT WANT TO, BUT I DID AND I DO AND I ALWAYS WILL!!!!! I do not think that my children speaking to me is a privaledge. Now maybe my kids speaking to their friends could be counted as a privaledge, but its not a priveldege for my kids to speak to me. It is a GOD given right and no one should take that away.
My communication with my boys was cut off completely. As a matter of fact the judge who heard my case was really pissed at the boys father for that. The boys father may have chosen to not talk to his boys but I had not. I have always had JOINT custody with my ex of my kids. I never gave up my rights as a parent. I never would and I never will. He and Dundee both had no right to sever my communication in any way. They did. I have the email from Joe, telling me I was disrupting their progress and that I should not have communication with them. He also told me this several times over the phone. Keep in mind this is a 25 year old twirp I am talking about.
You know Mr. Kay always claims that those of us who oppose WWASP schools are trying to take away the rights of parents to choose what is in the best interest of their child. Well, I think Mr. Kay needs to be aware of the fact that schools within his association are taking away the rights of parents.
My experiences were that I didn't always agree with the rules, but I don't always agree with the rules in my place of employment either. Breaking the rules in either place, have consequences that we are aware of, no matter if we agree or not.
You can not compare you breaking the rules at work to teens breaking the rules in a "program." You can make the statement that there are consequences, sure. The BIG difference is that you, at your place of employment, are not being held captive in an environment that has stripped you of all of your God given rights.
[ This Message was edited by: Carey on 2003-08-08 13:20 ]
[ This Message was edited by: Carey on 2003-08-08 13:37 ]
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lest anyone assume that i endorse the mindless ad hominem attacks against Carey (or anyone else), I have to agree with her on this one.
Simply reading your WWASP parent manual: inmates are punished for communicating "negative information" EVEN IF TRUTHFUL. In order to advance through the levels, Inmates are rewarded with points for telling their parents "positive" stuff like how much progress they're making and how great they think the program is EVEN IF FALSE.
Yep WWASP policy of monitoring mail is abuse, and is certainly illegal in state run institutions.
Posit a question: If your child writes a letter telling you that he is not receiving the medication which had been prescribed by your family physician, and your WWASP family rep decides that's negative and manipulation and declines to send it, would you not agree that is a very concrete manifestation of censorship as physical abuse?
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Scott T - sounds like you're a PUREist. Go ahead and deny it, I won't believe you. I'd like to see what the Parent Manual REALLY says.
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Scott T - sounds like you're a PUREist. Go ahead and deny it, I won't believe you. I'd like to see what the Parent Manual REALLY says.
Anon, let me try to make you understand something based on my own personal experience.
The enrollment agreement between Dundee and my ex says, "If joint custody, both parents must sign." Now keep in mind that that is exactly what the Dundee Enrollment Agreement states. It is their rule...their words. It is in writing and is part of the court documents concerning the domicillary case between me and the boys father. The court has in its possession a copy of that agreement that was provided by the boys father. Well, my kids were admitted to Dundee without my signature on that document. How could that have happened if everything they say in their documents is followed as stated. Let me remind you, I have always had JOINT custody of my kids.
My point is, what they say in writing is not what they follow. They say what they want you to hear and they do what they want to do.
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Did this happen because your ex and the boys were living in another country and they were admitted to a program outside of the US? No, I'm not a lawyer, but was that a loophole since they weren't in the U.S.? Sounds like both your husband and Teen Help used that to get your boys admitted. There I go assuming. Doesn't make it right even if it could have been legal to do so.
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Anon wrote:
No, I'm not a lawyer, but was that a loophole since they weren't in the U.S.? Sounds like both your husband and Teen Help used that to get your boys admitted.
Anon,
What I learned from my experience is that your court ordered divorce decree supercedes any program's policies. That's important for parents in similar situations to know.
For instance, I could show up unannounced on any of my regularly scheduled weekends for my visitation and take my son without their permission. My ex placed our son 1,500 miles away because I had previously demonstrated, with our older son and the younger son's first placement, that indeed I would exercise my rights.
There is no rational explanation for what Carey's ex did. No legal loopholes. Like so many, I would imagine that they were hoping she would just go along, or not have the financial resource to accomplish what she in fact did. They rolled the dice...and lost.
As for the policies. My experience is with a non-WWASP facility in Ga. many, many times they violated their stated policies. On one ocassion when I challenged them and posted my compaint on a message board, they revised the policy and sent a copy to all parents. The "Parent Manual" was useless, and rarely reflected what was actually occuring.
For instance, there was NO mention of the "restriction diet", or that a teen could be on restriction for months on end for minor infractions.
I could cite other violations but won't. Suffice it to say, that what you are told is not necessarily the truth, and the parent manual is designed to impress parents.
Deborah
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Did this happen because your ex and the boys were living in another country and they were admitted to a program outside of the US? No, I'm not a lawyer, but was that a loophole since they weren't in the U.S.? Sounds like both your husband and Teen Help used that to get your boys admitted. There I go assuming. Doesn't make it right even if it could have been legal to do so.
It happened because Dundee did not care if they had my signature or not. Their only concern was that my ex was able to pay.
While the boys were still there and I was seeking to obtain as much information as possible about the place I had a friend email Dundee pretending that he had a child who he wanted to place there. He spoke with Joe. He asked Joe whether Dundee would be willing to take his child if he could not get his ex wife's signature. He told Joe that he did not think his wife would agree with the idea. You know what Joe said. He told him not to worry, they could make it real difficult for her. He told him that was one of the good things about where Dundee was located.
Joe was not real smart. I have a copy of that email too.
The boys have remained under the jurisdiction of the courts here where we live. That has never changed. So as far as him placing them in that "program" he had no problem.
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Carey - how did your husband hear about this program in the first place? It seems like many of these parents are referred by someone they know (e.g. Ryan F. whose parents were supposedly referred by someone from their church). Others appear to hear about these programs from the courts, parent support groups and program-referral-services like this one which is operated by a parent who once had a child in a WWASPS program.
Teen Help Southeast (Florida)
http://www.youthplacement.com (http://www.youthplacement.com)
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Anon,
You addressed the question to Carey, but I'll also share my situation.
The idea was suggested to my ex by the family therapist. He had made a bad choice for our older son 4 years prior, sending him to a marine military academy. Won't go into the details of that horrid experience, but our lawsuit is settling now.
Anyway, he wanted to make a "better" choice, and thought he was, because it was a "therapeutic" facility. He visited several websites and upon learning that he needed a referal from an Ed Con, the therapist gave him a name. He called the Ed Con on Friday, she recommended a facility. It was all done by phone. She never saw my son.
He and my son flew to Ga on Sat. My son was offically enrolled on Monday- when I received a call out of the blue, from a complete stranger telling me that my son would be spending the next 22 months at their facility. He then proceeded to layout the ground rules for communication, I would not be speaking to my son for the next 4-5 months. FYI, four to five months depending on how quickly their group formed- waiting for a minimum number of participants. I was livid. I could not believe what I was hearing. It was surreal.
He said something about my son being ODD. I asked if he had been evaluated prior to enrollment. No, they determined he was ODD based on his father's complaints. They weren't interested in my perspective, he was paying the bill. That was the beginning of a 20 month nightmare.
Another tidbit about the Ed Con. Mid way through my son's stay I discovered that the facility wasn't licensed, nor was their newly opened wilderness program (bootcamp). I called and confronted her. She hemmed and hawed through the taped conversation. No, she didn't know that neither facility was licensed. No, she didn't know about the restriction diet. No, she didn't know the mail was censored and phone calls monitored. No, she'd never met my son. No, she didn't know if he had been evaluated before placement. Near the end, in defense, with a line straight out of the Ed Con textbook, she said her goal was to make the best placement possible so the child could get back on track academically and get on with their life. She added that she "hoped it would be a good placement for my son".
Had she known anything at all about my son, she would've known that he was an A/B student, well liked by his peers and teachers. He had no academic problems.
Since that time, I have personally known two other teens who have been incarcerated. One did not come home. He died 13 months ago at a Utah wilderness program, Skyline Journey, due to gross negligence. That is and will always be my opinion.
A family therapist refered his mom. The other teen's parent was refered by a school counselor.
When parents are desperate to dump their child the information is not difficult to find.
Deborah
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Carey: It's horrible that all of the WWASPS schools are being targeted because of one idiot director that only cared about numbers. When I admitted my son to a WWASPS therapeutic school my ex was required to sign the papers, even though I had full custody. They wouldn't budge on the signature. You've been through a lot. I wish you the best.
Deborah: Yours is also a horror story. It sounds like they took control and took away your parental rights. It validates my feelings about educational consultants. I know they can't all be like that, but a good majority of them are. I experienced the same thing when I was begging for help. Our therapist recommended an ed.con. and even though my son had been experiencing difficulites for several years including uncontrollable anger and drug/alcohol use, she recommended a two week wilderness program. Yes, I was desperate, but KNEW this was not going to help. I asked if there was anything longer with therapy. You know what she said. Yes, but they are expensive and since you said you were a single parent, I didn't think you would be able to afford it. I was furious at myself for wasting my time with this person.
I was with you up until you said that parents desperate to DUMP their children can find what they're looking for. If you knew our life at that time, that was not my motivation. We both needed help and I take responsibility for not being the mother he needed. We got ourselves into dangerous territory, it was up to me to get us out. I myself was a troubled teen, having spent 6 months in a facility, which was not abusive, though I cried abuse enough to make my mom believe it so she pulled me out. For many years after that 16-26 my own life was out of control. Yes, I grew out of it, but at what cost? I won't go into those years, but I was not going to watch my son beat the same path.
I knew what was needed, but my home state only had state and insurance run places with time limits that offered little or nothing to help me and us as a family. It was clear none of these places was "family friendly."
This was all happening in early 1999. I didn't know programs like WWASP(S) existed. I was ice-skating with my younger son and because my older son refused to go, I was pretty down that day. I went to sit on a bench and couldn't stop the tears. There was a woman there who saw me, came over to me and held me. Complete stranger who had no clue why I was in breakdown. She asked if there was anything she could do, and with a bit of sarcasm I said not unless she could find help for my son and I. She shared her struggle with her son and told me about where he was. I listened to her. I had felt so alone until that day. I knew it wouldn't be easy for either one of us, but this felt "right." I talked with kids that had been there and was taken with their honesty and how they had changed their lives. These happy and "together" young people gave me hope.
Yes, this woman received a free months tuition for her own son, but I would have gladly paid her myself. Where was she when I wasted time and money with an educational consultant who had NO clue what we needed? She wasn't out looking for me, but I wish she had been. She didn't twist my arm or tell me what to do. She was there when I needed her.
My ex wasn't happy about feelng like he had failed his son, but agreed to the admission. We didn't fight about it or play one against the other in some power struggle. We healed a lot of the ugly parts of our past through the seminars and family therapy with our son.
I found this site, and it is so full of pain. I wish there was something I can do to help, really. People like Joe and Sue Scheff are here to teach us lessons about what we are willing to accept in our lives. You don't like WWASPS, and that's okay. Do what works for you. It's all a part of your own healing process.
I'm ready for all of you who think I'm part of some PR group or am getting paid for posting, but any former WWASPIE on this board knows that doesn't happen. This little "invasion" of mine is all brought to you free of charge. LOL!
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Thanks Deborah, for sharing your experience which certainly raises some legitimate questions about whether parents should feel confident placing their their trust (and their $$$$ )in the hands of someone who may or may not have their child's best interest at heart.
What do you recommend parents do to protect themselves and their child from the potential to fall victim to the same kind of exploitation?
Unfortunately, I think watch-dog organizations like ISAC are missing-the-boat on exposing the level of corruption among private entities and persons who specialize in private placements and collect hefty "finder's fees" paid by the programs themselves.
Perhaps you and Carey can join forces and come up with some ideas on how to prevent other parents and children from being "used and abused" like you were?
:smile:
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To The Anonymous WWASPS Parent:
Your sugar-coated story made me want to
::puke::
FYI:
Referring children into a treatment program for a "finder's fee" (free tuition) is unethical.
Second, not signing your name to your TESTIMONIAL is proof positive that you have neither the courage nor the integrity to stand up for your beliefs.
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P.S. to the anonymous WWASPS parent who wrote:
"I found this site, and it is so full of pain. I wish there was something I can do to help, really. People like Joe and Sue Scheff are here to teach us lessons about what we are willing to accept in our lives. You don't like WWASPS, and that's okay. Do what works for you. It's all a part of your own healing process."
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1. Exactly what lessons are "Joe and Sue Sheff"
teaching others about their lives?
2. The only pain I see is expressed anger and frustration from people who have a legitimate gripe. What are you NOT seeing?
3. Educational consultants typically get paid by the parent for "services rendered" --- not by the institution as compensation/reward for putting "heads in the beds". Do you get the message?
4. There is nothing funny about making jokes at the expense of other people's thoughts and feelings. Do you know the definition for the word H U M I L I A T I O N?
:smokin:
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What do you recommend parents do to protect themselves and their child from the potential to fall victim to the same kind of exploitation?
I think the legal term is "due diligence"Truth resides in every human heart, and one has to search for it there, and to be guided by truth as one sees it. But no one has a right to coerce others to act according to his own view of truth.
--Mohandas K. Gandhi
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"It's horrible that all these WWASP schools are being targeted because of one ex-director who was only concerned about numbers"?
To whom are you referring? Amberly Knight, whose letter to the Costa Rican authorities complained about ABUSE and complained that WWASP only wanted to make money?
What about the closures of five other facilities following similar abuse/fraud accounts?
What about the literally hundreds of accounts of abuse at WWASP schools posted on the net and in the media, all from different families?
Look at the accounts of the WWASP experience from kids who say it was wonderful: they aren't particularly different from those who say it's terrible, it's just that the promoters say that the abusive treatment was helpful!
If you think isolation, lying on the floor for weeks [admitted to be done at TB by Jay Kay], brutal, punitive use of restraints, not being allowed to look at members of the opposite sex, not being allowed to speak openly, food and sleep deprivation, constant daily verbal humiliation including calling girls sluts and boys faggots, complete lack of privacy and lack of access to communication with parents and medical care are "treatment" that makes kids better, just wait a few years....
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I'm confused, is this the same person (Lyn Pretzfeld) referred to in A PARENT'S TRUE STORY published on the Parents Universal Resource Experts (aka PURE) website:
Teen Help Southeast (Florida)
http://www.youthplacement.com (http://www.youthplacement.com)
PURE
http://www.helpyourteens.com (http://www.helpyourteens.com)
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The website doesn't say what programs they refer to, only that they refer to behavior modifications programs in the United States and abroad. My question is do parents pay a fee to this firm for their placement services or does the referring agent get paid a "finder's fee" from programs for referring clients to them? At the very least, it seems to me this information should be disclosed somewhere on these websites.
http://www.youthplacement.com/faq.htm#faq1 (http://www.youthplacement.com/faq.htm#faq1)
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What about the literally hundreds of accounts of abuse at WWASP schools posted on the net and in the media, all from different families?
Most of these "hundreds of accounts" were posted by PURE as shown in the WWASP v Pure Court documents. The others were in the press articles that are clearly biased and didn't tell the whole story of the sources they were reporting on.
Looks like ONE positive story on this forum can be ripped to shreads, but all the negatives are welcome with open arms and not challenged. Go figure.
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On 2003-08-09 02:58:00, Anonymous wrote:
"To The Anonymous WWASPS Parent:
Your sugar-coated story made me want to
::puke::
FYI:
Referring children into a treatment program for a "finder's fee" (free tuition) is unethical.
Second, not signing your name to your TESTIMONIAL is proof positive that you have neither the courage nor the integrity to stand up for your beliefs.
"
I did not find her story sugar-coated, nor that posting ANON somehow discredits her words. What about you - you also posted ANON, as I have. I guess if you discount every ANON posting here, there's not much left, is there?
I also don't see where helping with the high cost of tuition when they're helping other parents is unethical. What's unethical is paying educational consultants or being a victim of your insurance company on what treatment is allowed. But that's a whole 'nother thread.
Peace
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Not unethical, you say? Try telling that to AACAP (The American Academy of Children and Adolescent Psychiatry) who would surely disagree with you.
Second, your "once upon a time I was a desperate parent" story is nauseating and made me also want to ::bangin::
:grin:
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On 2003-08-09 11:35:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Not unethical, you say? Try telling that to AACAP (The American Academy of Children and Adolescent Psychiatry) who would surely disagree with you.
They are paid by insurance companies, right? Yes, I agree they would disagree. Takes their funding away - they are paid by head count and want to keep it in line with insurance guidelines whether or not it's in the best interests of the client. Most of the time it's NOT...duh!!
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This anonymous program parent is a first-class bozo.
:rofl:
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On 2003-08-09 01:37:00, Anonymous wrote:
"It's horrible that all of the WWASPS schools are being targeted because of one idiot director that only cared about numbers. "
Well actually, its not just about "one idiot director" Its about the president of the so-called non-profit org and the directors of each and every independent" school owned by the Atkins/Kay/Lichfield axis of evil.
After the scandal at Dundee, did they come out AGAINST "the one idiot's" abusive practices and massive violation of Costa Rican immigration laws?"
On the contrary, they fell all over themselves publicizing what a swell guy Narvin really is, how their programs (which of course follow the same model as Dundee) are just swell. and how the Costa Rican prosecutor was just looking for a payoff, and just because Dundee had 6 directors in 18 months really wasn't a sign of something rotten, everything was just fine until that New York Times reporter came along etc.etc. ad nauseum.
Want to see a sterling defense? Check out management's posts to the WWASP bulletin board from May 25 to June 10 or so (at least)
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Those hundreds of negative posts *were by no means* posted by PURE.
Just try calling the phone numbers or emailing the people and asking to talk: they'll reply.