Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: psy on February 15, 2009, 02:09:55 PM
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tPNgHrIkgo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tPNgHrIkgo)
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Thank you!
Its surprising to me how SO MANY people are so easily sucked into these fairytale cults. Religion, AA and Behavior Modification programs all prey on the weak and gullible and teach them to judge everyone else for not believing the same nonsense. When will the world wake up from the mass hypnosis that quacks who have long ago left this earth set us under.
The other day I visited my little sister who told me that she was afraid to go live with the devil... apparently my grandmother has been telling her about the bible, and she really thinks these stories are true, like Santa Claus! The problem is that these are the same stories that people have been convinceing their children of for years, and apparently people haven't learned to grow up and take a story on face value, as just a story. No, in fact instead they base their whole life and conviction upon the illusion that these fairytales are real and that everyone else should believe them as well. I never understood why people felt the need to impose their religion on other people, as though "non believers" are somehow lost or in need of saving... when in reality it could only be the opposite, because for anyone else who is willing to live in such self inflicted delusions its only common sense that these people could be considered sick, or crazy.
How is a religion any different than a cult? a widely accepted cult but a cult none the less. Especially when branches of said cults are created to "fix" people, like AA. AA carries all aspects of what could be considered a modern day religious crusade, where people are not only forced into the control of the religion (ie the court ordered AA meetings) but as well convinced that they are helpless without the help of their divine assistance. Religious crusades have been responsible for these mass conversions since the beginning of recorded history and considering the success of the past what makes you think anything would stop them now? Only difference is their tactics have changed with the times, and their beliefs are more widely accepted in the general public that not too many people feel the need to openly question it. Lets face it, stupid people have been breeding stupid people for so long we have evolved to exclude the will of questioning our society. Too many people are willing to go along with whatever they are told, and blindly believe in something their whole lives that it has become near impossible to wake anyone up out of their religious comas.
Despite the fact that Religion is single-handedly responsible for most of the world wars, including the one we are paying for as we speak we still can't bear to purge ourselves of the bed time stories that make us feel all warm and cozy inside. My question is, are we really all that weak? Do we as a society need to convince ourselves of such ridiculous ideals in order to live our lives in a moral manner? Is it really so wrong to just live your life on your own terms? I can't say I have so much faith in the dumb-masses but as individuals we should all be able to make up our own minds.
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Fem, you know, people often have to attend anger management class, or visit with a parole officer as a condition of release or remaining at large..Are parole and anger management classses "cults"?....Religions are not "cults" or vice versa based on how "accepted" they are. I wish people would stop throwing aroung that term...
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MO: money is responsible for most wars.
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Fem, you know, people often have to attend anger management class, or visit with a parole officer as a condition of release or remaining at large..Are parole and anger management classses "cults"?....Religions are not "cults" or vice versa based on how "accepted" they are. I wish people would stop throwing aroung that term...
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MO: money is responsible for most wars.
You're right. Religions are not cults but there can be religious cults. I'm not getting into that debate as it's already been done elsewhere. Is the term "cult" overused? Sometimes it is. The solution is education, not calling people names.
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In any case I deeply dislike labels such as “cult, “survivor,” “programmie” -- and for that matter, “fascist,” “communist,” etc. Quite apart from their anti-analytical, inflammatory purpose, such terms have lost most of their meaning through overuse. In my experience “X is a programmie!” really means, more often than not, something like “I disagree with Mr. X about Y.”
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In any case I deeply dislike labels such as “cult, “survivor,” “programmie” -- and for that matter, “fascist,” “communist,” etc. Quite apart from their anti-analytical, inflammatory purpose, such terms have lost most of their meaning through overuse. In my experience “X is a programmie!” really means, more often than not, something like “I disagree with Mr. X about Y.”
yes these terms have lost their meaning through misuse..particularly cult. i'd say people should educate themselves about cultic organizations, but I'd come off like such a condescending twit that I refrain. Not to mention a lot of people cannot be "educated."
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In any case I deeply dislike labels such as “cult, “survivor,” “programmie” -- and for that matter, “fascist,” “communist,” etc. Quite apart from their anti-analytical, inflammatory purpose, such terms have lost most of their meaning through overuse. In my experience “X is a programmie!” really means, more often than not, something like “I disagree with Mr. X about Y.”
yes these terms have lost their meaning through misuse..particularly cult. i'd say people should educate themselves about cultic organizations, but I'd come off like such a condescending twit that I refrain. Not to mention a lot of people cannot be "educated."
Personally, I prefer to describe what happened and let people come to their own conclusions, maybe using teh "cult" or "cult-like group" moniker later if it is appropriate. There is reason to avoid using the word, but unfortunately, sometimes it *is* appropriate. At the very least, "brainwashing" does need to be used. It's the only way to explain how kids come out of the most abusive programs mindlessly singing "the program saved my life from deadinsaneinjail".
Sometimes if you press the issue, you can demonstrate the supporters really *are* brainwashed. Sometimes, you don't need to. Such is the case with the second WISH-TV thread in which the fanatical supporters were clearly showing their true colors:
http://www.topix.net/forum/source/wish/ ... KPVEM8FPSR (http://www.topix.net/forum/source/wish/T3KPEP7KPVEM8FPSR)
I don't think anybody can read that thread and not have the word "brainwashed" pop into their heads. That is one of the best examples I've seen of program people at their craziest.
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In any case I deeply dislike labels such as “cult, “survivor,” “programmie” -- and for that matter, “fascist,” “communist,” etc. Quite apart from their anti-analytical, inflammatory purpose, such terms have lost most of their meaning through overuse. In my experience “X is a programmie!” really means, more often than not, something like “I disagree with Mr. X about Y.”
yes these terms have lost their meaning through misuse..particularly cult. i'd say people should educate themselves about cultic organizations, but I'd come off like such a condescending twit that I refrain. Not to mention a lot of people cannot be "educated."
:bs: :bs: :bs: :bs:
go on ... pick at semantics ... anything to avoid having to ...
face the TRUTH!!
:D
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Just because you went to rehab and AA unnecessarily doesn't make them evil. It just means you're stupid.
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Just because you went to rehab and AA unnecessarily doesn't make them evil. It just means you're stupid.
A legitimate rehab wouldn't take the kinds of kids you refer to. They don't need it, and it wouldn't be professionally responsible to put them through an unnecessary institutionalization.
The reason some kids end up at these duck farms who take anybody, on the other hand, has more to do with dysfunctional family dynamics than anything else. And it is a lot easier -- for all concerned -- to put the onus of cause onto the kid's shoulders, than it is to put it on the parents' shoulders.
After all, the parent is paying the bills, and "the customer is always right," eh?
The reason these kids end up being at the duck farm is not because they're "stupid," but because they're kids! They don't have a choice!
Your failure to recognize that makes you... uh, what?
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Not quite, little buddy!! I'm not talking about kids I"m talking about adults go to AA or sign themsleves into rehab. Rehabs know that people will not sign themselves in if they don't want treatment *because it's common sense*. I guess you are the type of person who thinks people should be able to sue McDonalds for making them fat. Ronald McDonald is a cult leader responsible for brainwashing children who grow up and die of heart disease! It's a McDonalds holocaust! ::)
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um...ok so when i got put in straight did i have a drug problem? Fuck yes.Did I need to be kicked around at that point ? Fuck no.Did straight give me any "tools" to deal with MY situation?no they gave me more reinforcement for the shitty way i already thought of myself.
at best they were seriously incompetent,at worst a very "CULT-LIKE" conspiricy of IDIOTS,most of whom would'nt know therapy if it bit them on the balls. :soapbox: dont get me fing started.
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Not quite, little buddy!! I'm not talking about kids I"m talking about adults go to AA or sign themsleves into rehab. Rehabs know that people will not sign themselves in if they don't want treatment *because it's common sense*. I guess you are the type of person who thinks people should be able to sue McDonalds for making them fat. Ronald McDonald is a cult leader responsible for brainwashing children who grow up and die of heart disease! It's a McDonalds holocaust! ::)
Well, I dunno about Ronald McDonald, but there was some clown by the name of Donald MacDonald who functioned as one of the U.S. Government-Straight, Inc. go-betweens back in the early days. I am sure that some might say your wild accusations could be quite literally applied to him. :D
Courtesy of Wes Fager's wisdom, color emphasis mine:
Straight, Inc., the United States government and medical experimentation. Straight, Inc. can not deny that it was involved in medical research. In 1982 Donald Ian Macdonald, MD was appointed Director of Medical Research for Straight-national, and in 1986 Richard H. Schwartz, MD was Director of Research for Straight-Springfield...
<snip snip> ...
Straight and the White House Drug Czars. Besides being director of NIDA Robert DuPont was also the second White House Drug Czar. Drug Czar Carlton Turner accompanied Nancy Reagan on her first visit to Straight and endorses the front page of Miller Newton's book Not My Kid with these words: "Not My Kid should be required reading for any parent concerned about their children's future." Turner spoke at a Straight fund raising dinner in May 1982. Donald Ian Macdonald, Straight's national medical research director, became another Reagan Drug Czar.
http://republicanpartyandcults.blogspot ... hould.html (http://republicanpartyandcults.blogspot.com/2005/12/why-united-states-government-should.html)
See also: http://thestraights.com/people/medical- ... ntment.gif (http://thestraights.com/people/medical-doctors/macdonald-appointment.gif)
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I remember his kid he fing flew thru his program,un-like the rest of us,I spilled more dope than that kid used,he was a preppy,prolly got caught by his mommy inthe bushes with a pbr,half a doob,and a larry flynt publication
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I thought all the kids in programs were innocent?
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In any case I deeply dislike labels such as “cult, “survivor,” “programmie” -- and for that matter, “fascist,” “communist,” etc. Quite apart from their anti-analytical, inflammatory purpose, such terms have lost most of their meaning through overuse. In my experience “X is a programmie!” really means, more often than not, something like “I disagree with Mr. X about Y.”
yes these terms have lost their meaning through misuse..particularly cult. i'd say people should educate themselves about cultic organizations, but I'd come off like such a condescending twit that I refrain. Not to mention a lot of people cannot be "educated."
:bs: :bs: :bs: :bs:
go on ... pick at semantics ... anything to avoid having to ...
face the TRUTH!!
:D
Semantics are important to a certain extent because language is the tool we use to convey ideas. These aren't schools that abduct kids, they are privately funded thought reform captivity centers and cult like. AA and fornits and less popular religions, without further demarcation, cannot be called cults or cult like. If you are going to say "aa" or unpopular religions or fornits is a cult, recognize that you are spreading misinformation and making it harder for cultic victims to receive recompense, in a small way.
Straight and the Synanon derivative thought reform prisons are certainly within the cultic spectrum. NO one would disagree with you on that who know what they're talking about. Ignore the trolls who suggest otherwise, or engage them if you like arguing, with the recognition you're dealing with a brainwashed lost soul, or worse.
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Well. Many programs have bona-fide charismatic leaders that the kids (and sometime parents) would do anything for (breaking the law, etc...) placing those programs firmly within the "cult" zone, and not just cult-like.
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Well. Many programs have bona-fide charismatic leaders that the kids (and sometime parents) would do anything for (breaking the law, etc...) placing those programs firmly within the "cult" zone, and not just cult-like.
One thing i am not sure about: Do the upper level warden/torturer KNOW what they are doing is evil? Do monsters like Micheal Desisto or Mel Wasserman (sp?)
THINK they are helping people? My feeling is that they know what they are doing to people, and simply dont care. But are staff like Steve Larid or Rudy Bentz who came on and then started their own torture centers brainwashed? Do they know real from unreal anymore?
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Well. Many programs have bona-fide charismatic leaders that the kids (and sometime parents) would do anything for (breaking the law, etc...) placing those programs firmly within the "cult" zone, and not just cult-like.
One thing i am not sure about: Do the upper level warden/torturer KNOW what they are doing is evil? Do monsters like Micheal Desisto or Mel Wasserman (sp?)
THINK they are helping people? My feeling is that they know what they are doing to people, and simply dont care. But are staff like Steve Larid or Rudy Bentz who came on and then started their own torture centers brainwashed? Do they know real from unreal anymore?
Those are good questions i'm not sure anybody can answer. I've thought about those questions a lot. Who knows.
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In any case I deeply dislike labels such as “cult, “survivor,” “programmie” -- and for that matter, “fascist,” “communist,” etc. Quite apart from their anti-analytical, inflammatory purpose, such terms have lost most of their meaning through overuse. In my experience “X is a programmie!” really means, more often than not, something like “I disagree with Mr. X about Y.”
yes these terms have lost their meaning through misuse..particularly cult. i'd say people should educate themselves about cultic organizations, but I'd come off like such a condescending twit that I refrain. Not to mention a lot of people cannot be "educated."
Funny, my post was not about cults... however is the language I used the only response you have to the question I posed? Ill pose said question again.
How is a religion any different than a cult? a widely accepted cult but a cult none the less. Especially when branches of said cults are created to "fix" people, like AA.
My post is about the fairytale stories that are told (especially in the bible) and why do adults choose to believe them, furthermore what does religion have to do with recovery from an addiction? Cult or not, AA's concepts are off the wall and this episode of Pen and Teller's "Bullshit" should have put that into perspective. For one the disease concept, which is completely void of having any scientific basis and then going as far as to say that the only cure to said disease is converting to the 12 step religion....? psssssht. As much as it isn't marketed as a religion, the fact that the main requirement is to accept a god and offer your life to them is a bit telling. Futhermore how counter-productive is it to admit you are helpless?... especially when managing an addiction requires willpower?... that just really makes no sense. Unless of course, the main intention of this tactic is to ensure dependence on the religion or said group.
Although I didn't get into that argument, as it has been covered here before, what I said was how is it possible that we as a society are so willing to openly accept these outlandish concepts. Those perpetrated by religions, and their separate sects and especially those who are intended to convert members of our society into a blind obedience. What for? I don't know, but what I do know is that any logical person who was not brought up around the same religious beliefs would find them absurd and I find it surprising that these ideals would be used as some form of treatment for people with addiction. Why are we as a society willing to so widely accept these concepts without questioning the legitimacy of their practices and why is it considered rebellious to be wary of what we are instructed to believe?
Having faith, and believing in a higher power are something completely different than perusing a religion. Religious sects have been corrupt since the dawn of their conception, but the question is what is really the purpose of creating a group of followers to any organization or belief system? To control the masses. and if the masses are controllable, they are usable and when a whole society can be used and abused what do you get?
well exactly what we've got.
lol.
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How is a religion any different than a cult? a widely accepted cult but a cult none the less.
A couple things
1. religions don't deceptively recruit. people know what they're getting into
2. religions don't have secret practices.
3. religions don't require you to give money, though many recieve donations, or even suggest it. The bible says 10% but nobody does that and nobody is enforcing it. Nobody knows what you put in the collections plate except yourself.
4. religions don't sue people or kill your pets if you piss them off.
5. religions don't practice thought reform (in the lifton sense). What they do on the continuum of influence and persuasion is called "indoctrination".
I could go on and on and on.
Yes there are religious cults, but there are all sorts of other cults as well. "Cult" means three things: origin of the group, structure of the group, and use of thought reform. This can apply to any type of organization. "god" can be substituted for any type of absolute truth/salvation supposedly only available through the group.
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MMmmm... I try to hold up my 'coercion ruler' and see where said organization lines up. It's not an exact science. And what something says it is...is not necessary what it actually is, in my book, at least.
SOME churches can be pretty damn coercive, if you ask me. E.g., Assemblies of God and their affiliates, Dominionist churches in general, a far share of the Pentacostals, even select branches of the Catholic Church fail my 'coercion ruler'.
The Boston Church of Christ (as opposed to other branches of CoC) was even investigated a number of years ago for "coercion." The Church brought in some Investigator from the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator (http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myers-Briggs_Type_Indicator) people to prove the naysayers and malcontents wrong. Well over a thousand people undertook self-assessments (there were quite a number of control groups included as well), and it was found that people definitely were pressured into and underwent personality changes (conclusion: coercion). Worst hit were those who were originally introverted by nature.
And hey, let's not forget what goes on in other parts of the world in the name of "saving the children" (by driving nails into their skulls to chase out witches), or a given culture's virtue (by extorting suicide bombers out of families that need to pay a price), not to mention the myriad other insults and assaults that are enacted in the name of "The Holy" too numerous and too depressing to go into here.
So...I am highly suspicious of many religions, even though "religion" per se does not necessarily spell out "cult" to me... yet. I am open to having my definition broadened.
::evil::
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It's not an exact science.
This is very true!
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select branches of the Catholic Church fail my 'coercion ruler'.
Regnum Christi / Legionnaires of Christ would be a good example in the Catholic Church. Rick Ross has them in his DB. The thing is with that story was that it was sort of like a "rogue" sect. The pope didn't know what was fully going on and when he found out, took steps to remove the leader (Marcel Marciel) from his post. Marcel had secret vows and all sorts of things (not to mention lots and lots of little boys). Since then, the sect is (supposedly) relatively benign (cut the head off...).
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Blah,Blah.Blah... nobody cares.
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select branches of the Catholic Church fail my 'coercion ruler'.
Regnum Christi / Legionnaires of Christ would be a good example in the Catholic Church. Rick Ross has them in his DB. The thing is with that story was that it was sort of like a "rogue" sect. The pope didn't know what was fully going on and when he found out, took steps to remove the leader (Marcel Marciel) from his post. Marcel had secret vows and all sorts of things (not to mention lots and lots of little boys). Since then, the sect is (supposedly) relatively benign (cut the head off...).
Ah, jeez... That friggin' debauched despot was definitely in the forefront of my mind when I wrote that. But know this: it took DECADES and at least two popes to get that reamer cordoned off to the sidelines; and even then, the Church never fully acknowledged or sanctioned him for his crimes. They knew -- but did not want to admit -- what was going on with him and his secret little society. By the end, it was "more than 20, but less than a hundred" who dared come forth and put their names on the list. Who knows how many many more could not bring themselves to take that step.
Way back, in the very beginning, Marcel Marciel was kicked out of two orders for reasons unknown. He was finally able to become a priest because his uncle ordained him. How many decades of other people's misery was he able to exact out of his position? Was it five? Or six? You know he used to have his boy toys buy opiates for him. He was a complete lush, through and through.
When his victims told him that they felt bad about the sexual aspect of his "mentorship" and that they wanted to confess to a priest, he would "hear" their confessions and grant them absolution. And then continue fucking them.
He had yet another double life: a mistress, with whom he allegedly fathered a child. The daughter is now supposedly in her early twenties.
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I have..... er... family.... that are members. intimately.
that's how I know bout em.
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How is a religion any different than a cult? a widely accepted cult but a cult none the less.
A couple things
1. religions don't deceptively recruit. people know what they're getting into
2. religions don't have secret practices.
3. religions don't require you to give money, though many recieve donations, or even suggest it. The bible says 10% but nobody does that and nobody is enforcing it. Nobody knows what you put in the collections plate except yourself.
4. religions don't sue people or kill your pets if you piss them off.
5. religions don't practice thought reform (in the lifton sense). What they do on the continuum of influence and persuasion is called "indoctrination".
I could go on and on and on.
Yes there are religious cults, but there are all sorts of other cults as well. "Cult" means three things: origin of the group, structure of the group, and use of thought reform. This can apply to any type of organization. "god" can be substituted for any type of absolute truth/salvation supposedly only available through the group.
Great answer!
However I have a broader opinion of what "thought reform" really is. I think that religions such as Mormonism, Catholicism, Islam and some extremist Christian sects do in fact use thought reform and tactics of social isolation including secret practices. In fact most of these things you listed above apply in most ways to any organization (except of course killing pets) that is intent on recruiting people into a radical belief system. Just as you have said recently, the mere fact that people go into the duck farm non believers and come out singing praises is evidence enough that there is some kind of brainwashing going on. The only reason you think that religions don't "deceptively recruit" is because to your knowledge they aren't pulling a marketing strategy like the BM programs do. But what you don't realize is that this "deceptive recruiting" isn't marketed to logical adults, the targeted audience is the children. They read the children these moralistic fairy tales and just like Santa Claus they believe its true and they grow up continuing to believe them. However, the silent thought reform is peer pressure, (the same tactics they utilized in the program) because these beliefs are so widely accepted these children grow to accept what they were told, and what is constantly re-enforced by their parents, in church, in the media and even by our pledge of allegiance, must be true. Also consider that most people are cast out of their peer group or even their families if they dare to question these beliefs. Looking at the big picture, and society as a whole you will notice that the thought reform has become a part of our culture.
Regardless, I don't think these things listed above are what really separate a religion from a cult... and I agree, the word's meaning must have been lost along the way. In my opinion a cult is neither evil nor divine, I think the mere fact that an organization that harbors a purpose to convert people (usually the lost and struggling) into an illogical belief system in order to create a separation between them and the rest of the world can constitute as a cult. I personally believe that all religions started out as small cults and as their crusades yielded more and more believers the less and less they needed to practice thought reform techniques. Instead that thought reform got watered down by the acceptance of a society until no longer does thought reform seem to be thought reform, and conversions become automatic, especially when growing up in a religious home.
Like I've said before, these are my personal beliefs. I guess I have always questioned authority, including the way that people think and how we came to create our society as it is today. But my original point remains. I find it ridiculous that people continue to take religion so seriously and accept outlandish beliefs so easily. Faith and religion are two different things... and I don't think religion has any place in substance abuse recovery.
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psy, bloody brilliant link! Thanks!
The whole idea of creating and using a state-sanctioned religious entity, which is held up to no regulation nor required to produce numbers or evidence of success, as a method for coercing willing or unwilling citizens to quit a habit that is an individual liberty, nobody's business to begin with, and as such, a private decision and process SHOULD one decide to quit...
...is as effective as trying to pound a flounder into a sheet of titanium with spaghetti.
BUT, if I were pressed to find a one-word term for 12 step, it would probably be cuntult. (cunty cult)
If you say it repeatedly it kind of sounds like some old, antiquated engine trying to turn itself over.
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How is a religion any different than a cult? a widely accepted cult but a cult none the less.
A couple things
1. religions don't deceptively recruit. people know what they're getting into
2. religions don't have secret practices.
3. religions don't require you to give money, though many recieve donations, or even suggest it. The bible says 10% but nobody does that and nobody is enforcing it. Nobody knows what you put in the collections plate except yourself.
4. religions don't sue people or kill your pets if you piss them off.
5. religions don't practice thought reform (in the lifton sense). What they do on the continuum of influence and persuasion is called "indoctrination".
I could go on and on and on.
Yes there are religious cults, but there are all sorts of other cults as well. "Cult" means three things: origin of the group, structure of the group, and use of thought reform. This can apply to any type of organization. "god" can be substituted for any type of absolute truth/salvation supposedly only available through the group.
I don't think thats quite right. If people want to understand cults they can read any of a dozen books on the subject the most famous being "cults in our midst" my margeret singer.
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How is a religion any different than a cult? a widely accepted cult but a cult none the less.
A couple things
1. religions don't deceptively recruit. people know what they're getting into
2. religions don't have secret practices.
3. religions don't require you to give money, though many recieve donations, or even suggest it. The bible says 10% but nobody does that and nobody is enforcing it. Nobody knows what you put in the collections plate except yourself.
4. religions don't sue people or kill your pets if you piss them off.
5. religions don't practice thought reform (in the lifton sense). What they do on the continuum of influence and persuasion is called "indoctrination".
I could go on and on and on.
Yes there are religious cults, but there are all sorts of other cults as well. "Cult" means three things: origin of the group, structure of the group, and use of thought reform. This can apply to any type of organization. "god" can be substituted for any type of absolute truth/salvation supposedly only available through the group.
I don't think thats quite right. If people want to understand cults they can read any of a dozen books on the subject the most famous being "cults in our midst" my margeret singer.
Actually, that's where I got that information (1994, first edition). Page 7 lists the three elements. Chapter 4, page 96 and on goes into differences between cults and religions and cult apologists. Page 13 lists how cults are not all religious.
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I think I should reinterate here, that my point was not the operations of a religion, it was of the idiotic concepts and idealogies of said religions.
For instance, Jesus, son of God, allowing himself to be murdered as a sacrafice for the basic nature of humans. Topped off by a rise from the dead and an empty promise that he will return. And only if you convince yourself of these stories you will be saved from the pending doom that is the end of the world.
Yea, I call bullshit on that one folks.
What I don't understand is why people are so afraid to question the authority of an old book written by ancient MEN, not by God. Here's my theory, either the bible is a work of complete fiction created by MEN to psychologically control the masses, or God is one sadistic son of a bitch and we are all doomed.
I think the bible is bullshit and it shouldn't be taken so seriously, but I don't think that makes me a non-believer or athesist. Personally, I believe what I feel in my heart to be true, not anything anyone told me to believe. I believe in a higher power (or God), and spirits (or angels) and the other side (or heaven) I also believe there are good and bad entities (angels/ demons) just as there are good and bad people. however I DO NOT believe that ANYONE is banished to hell for simply not believing in the ridiculous stories the bible perpertrates. I also don't think hell is some firey furnace of enternal torture, as much as that may satisfy the the corporate punishment types, I think that whole concept is so far from any honest possibility, its simply a scare tactic.
So getting back to the topic, I don't think that an organization that builds their practice on such nonsense should have any athority over someones recovery. and certianly should not require a convert to a powerless and victimy existance in order to do so. My point is the whole conept of AA and futhermore religion itself really doesnt make much sense to me, and I'm surprised how many people are so willing to get sucked into it. I'm not saying it doesn't have a positive effect on some people's lives, or at least keep them in line, I'm just not a fan of mind control being paraded as a public service.
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Nobody cares what any of you think. So why waste your time writing it out? :fuckoff:
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I think the bible is bullshit and it shouldn't be taken so seriously, but I don't think that makes me a non-believer or athesist. Personally, I believe what I feel in my heart to be true, not anything anyone told me to believe. I believe in a higher power (or God), and spirits (or angels) and the other side (or heaven) I also believe there are good and bad entities (angels/ demons) just as there are good and bad people.
Believing in an invisible superhero, angels, demons and fantastic ever-happy after-death-land is sane. UNLIKE believing in the bible. THAT’S crazy
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hee-haw! hee-haw!
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Nobody cares what any of you think. So why waste your time writing it out? :fuckoff:
Judging from the number of views and posts on this thread and the various other AA threads, I'd say more than a few care. You care enough to drop into most of them and tell us how boring or how stupid it is. All you have to do is ignore the threads that deal with the subject of AA. Why is this so difficult for you? Are you learning disabled or something? Should we be pitying you instead of pointing and laughing?
:boycott: :fuckoff: :twofinger: :fuckoff: :twofinger:
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Er, I’d say the trolls point was general mayhem not AA promotion? But persecution complexes are fun too, brave warrior.
Of COCK!!!!
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Er, I’d say the trolls point was general mayhem not AA promotion?
Er, I'd disagree.
OF PUSSY!!!!!!!!!!
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Er, I’d say the trolls point was general mayhem not AA promotion?
Er, I'd disagree.
OF PUSSY!!!!!!!!!!
I agree. There is a hidden, more profound philosophy in this troll's "shut up, you're a loser " message. After review, I have realized he is doing no less than making a case for attatchment parenting and the electric car.
BOOBIES
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Big Brother love AA doubleplusgood
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I think he's got some points on the program itself but he's wrong on the disease concept, this has been shown:
http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/news ... olism-gene (http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/news/20040526/researchers-identify-alcoholism-gene)
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I think he's got some points on the program itself but he's wrong on the disease concept, this has been shown:
http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/news ... olism-gene (http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/news/20040526/researchers-identify-alcoholism-gene)
You're not reading the source. You're not reading the researcher's data directly. You're reading a news report on researchers analysis of their own data.
And even if there *were* a propensity to a person drinking, that would *still* not absolve them of their actions. Propensity is not a guarantee of destiny. It would *still* not mean that all those people have a "disease". Picking up a drink is a behavior and a choice.
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Alcoholism is not a disease, for God's sake. If you stuck an alcoholic on an island without alcohol - surprise, surprise, he or she will improve. It's a cultural disease, if you like. Blame the West for embracing & celebrating the most destructive drug there is. And so there's no argument, alcohol IS a drug - depressant of the central nervous system. It's the only drug with potentially fatal withdrawal,too.
AA is hoo-hoo.
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Alcoholism is not a disease, for God's sake. If you stuck an alcoholic on an island without alcohol - surprise, surprise, he or she will improve. It's a cultural disease, if you like. Blame the West for embracing & celebrating the most destructive drug there is. And so there's no argument, alcohol IS a drug - depressant of the central nervous system. It's the only drug with potentially fatal withdrawal,too.
AA is hoo-hoo.
A "Disease's" presence isnt determined through whether or not it can improve or become asymptomatic, especially mental disease or disorder. Are any of you people posting here doctors, by any chance? I think there is some confusion about how the term disease can/should be used vis-a-vis mental illness
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Hi.
I currently do not have a disease, but I am interested in getting one.
It appears that becoming a lush would be the easiest way to do this. Am I correct? Although, according to 12 step, crossdressing and excessive online gaming also count.
If anyone has any suggestions or recommendations, I would be most appreciative.
Thank you.
A "Disease's" presence isnt determined through whether or not it can improve or become asymptomatic, especially mental disease or disorder. Are any of you people posting here doctors, by any chance? I think there is some confusion about how the term disease can/should be used vis-a-vis mental illness
Logic dictates that when someone confronts others about their lack of a medical degree, then that must mean that they themselves are doctors, because nobody could possibly be stupid enough to say something that blatantly hypocritical, and then immediately follow up by pimping their own insight without backing it up by demonstrating that they have the authority and credentials to state such a thing.
So... since you are obviously a doctor, and you know what a disease *really* is, do you have any recommendations on the best 12 step disease to have?
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A "Disease's" presence isnt determined through whether or not it can improve or become asymptomatic, especially mental disease or disorder. Are any of you people posting here doctors, by any chance? I think there is some confusion about how the term disease can/should be used vis-a-vis mental illness
Yes, there is. Please give us your definition of "disease".
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Hi.
I currently do not have a disease, but I am interested in getting one.
It appears that becoming a lush would be the easiest way to do this. Am I correct? Although, according to 12 step, crossdressing and excessive online gaming also count.
If anyone has any suggestions or recommendations, I would be most appreciative.
Thank you.
I'd suggest a good, old-fashioned opium habit, but I'm kind of a traditionalist that way. Maybe some kind of disease that involves drugs, lottery tickets, bestiality, and wearing the vestments of clergy members of the opposite sex. Maybe you should involve some weird fetishism for Victorian furniture, too.
A "Disease's" presence isnt determined through whether or not it can improve or become asymptomatic, especially mental disease or disorder. Are any of you people posting here doctors, by any chance? I think there is some confusion about how the term disease can/should be used vis-a-vis mental illness
Logic dictates that when someone confronts others about their lack of a medical degree, then that must mean that they themselves are doctors, because nobody could possibly be stupid enough to say something that blatantly hypocritical, and then immediately follow up by pimping their own insight without backing it up by demonstrating that they have the authority and credentials to state such a thing.
Yes, Castle, somebody could be that stupid. Every day I get calls from people at least as moronic as that.
So... since you are obviously a doctor, and you know what a disease *really* is, do you have any recommendations on the best 12 step disease to have?
Well, I'm not a licensed doctor, but I do have lots of experience with things that people have been known to attend 12 step groups for, so I'm gonna suggest compulsive lying. That way you'll fit in at any 12 step meeting group you choose to attend.
Best regards,
RTP2K3
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Yes, Castle, somebody could be that stupid. Every day I get calls from people at least as moronic as that.
I am suddenly curious as to what you do for a living.
tech support?
oh wait, sorry. That's all in India now.
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Hi.
I currently do not have a disease, but I am interested in getting one.
It appears that becoming a lush would be the easiest way to do this. Am I correct? Although, according to 12 step, crossdressing and excessive online gaming also count.
If anyone has any suggestions or recommendations, I would be most appreciative.
Thank you.
I'd suggest a good, old-fashioned opium habit, but I'm kind of a traditionalist that way. Maybe some kind of disease that involves drugs, lottery tickets, bestiality, and wearing the vestments of clergy members of the opposite sex. Maybe you should involve some weird fetishism for Victorian furniture, too.
A "Disease's" presence isnt determined through whether or not it can improve or become asymptomatic, especially mental disease or disorder. Are any of you people posting here doctors, by any chance? I think there is some confusion about how the term disease can/should be used vis-a-vis mental illness
Logic dictates that when someone confronts others about their lack of a medical degree, then that must mean that they themselves are doctors, because nobody could possibly be stupid enough to say something that blatantly hypocritical, and then immediately follow up by pimping their own insight without backing it up by demonstrating that they have the authority and credentials to state such a thing.
Yes, Castle, somebody could be that stupid. Every day I get calls from people at least as moronic as that.
So... since you are obviously a doctor, and you know what a disease *really* is, do you have any recommendations on the best 12 step disease to have?
Well, I'm not a licensed doctor, but I do have lots of experience with things that people have been known to attend 12 step groups for, so I'm gonna suggest compulsive lying. That way you'll fit in at any 12 step meeting group you choose to attend.
Best regards,
RTP2K3
:roflmao: :rocker:
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Yes, Castle, somebody could be that stupid. Every day I get calls from people at least as moronic as that.
I am suddenly curious as to what you do for a living.
tech support?
oh wait, sorry. That's all in India now.
:seg:
btw Castle.....love the Carol Burnett quote. Did you know she sent her kid off to a program? I was so disappointed to hear that. She's a part of some of my good childhood memories.
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Yes, Castle, somebody could be that stupid. Every day I get calls from people at least as moronic as that.
I am suddenly curious as to what you do for a living.
tech support?
oh wait, sorry. That's all in India now.
:seg:
btw Castle.....love the Carol Burnett quote. Did you know she sent her kid off to a program? I was so disappointed to hear that. She's a part of some of my good childhood memories.
LOL. You're shitting me. Which program? Do you know?
Yeah, I feel the same way about her. For some reason, I always associate her with visiting my grandmother, since most of my memories watching burnett were at my grandmother's house, eating buttered toast. Then I'd watch the price is right immediately afterwards.
Fuck I miss the 70s. That was a hell of a decade. (Although Im sure seedlings would disagree with me on that.)
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Yes, Castle, somebody could be that stupid. Every day I get calls from people at least as moronic as that.
I am suddenly curious as to what you do for a living.
tech support?
oh wait, sorry. That's all in India now.
:seg:
btw Castle.....love the Carol Burnett quote. Did you know she sent her kid off to a program? I was so disappointed to hear that. She's a part of some of my good childhood memories.[/quote]
Found this, but I'm not really sure...... http://www.people.com/people/archive/ar ... 40,00.html (http://www.people.com/people/archive/article/0,,20136340,00.html)
Another Heartbreak
By Jill Smolowe
Carol Burnett Mourns the Death from Cancer of Carrie Hamilton, 38, the Daughter Whose Teenage Drug Addiction Had Tested the Strength of a Mother's Love
....................................With the exception of Hamilton's tumultuous teen years, such closeness was the hallmark of their relationship. While growing up in Beverly Hills, Carrie and her sisters Erin, now 33, and Jody attended almost every dress rehearsal of the Emmy-winning Carol Burnett Show, which starred their mother, was produced by their father and ran for 11 years, until 1978. "We'd be out by 6 o'clock every day and by 10 p.m. on show day," says writer Kohan. "The show was structured in such a way that Carol could spend time with her family." Early on Burnett's fame had little impact on Hamilton: "I never connected who my mother was with who was onstage," she told the Denver Rocky Mountain News Haven't they done a series of articles on the TTI?? in 1995. "She was just a mom like everyone else."
Mom became the enemy in 1977. After discovering her 13-year-old daughter was sneaking cigarettes, Burnett began to eavesdrop on Hamilton's phone conversations. "I was mother tigress and not above snooping," she told PEOPLE in 1979. Soon cigarettes became pot and alcohol; uppers, downers, psychedelics, cocaine and mushrooms Even that sounds oh-so familiar followed. "I could think or talk of nothing else, and it was driving a wedge in [my] marriage," Burnett said. When therapy failed, Burnett and Hamilton tightened the parental noose, grounding Carrie and taking away her phone. "We didn't want her to hate us," said Burnett, "but she already did."
Burnett also said she felt "sorry and guilty—by then Carrie was a virtual prisoner in our house." But she remembered her own parents, who had died of alcoholism when she was in her 20s, and dug in even harder. She signed Hamilton up for a rehab program at the Houston headquarters of the Palmer Drug Abuse Program—then kept her distance. A month into the program, a newly sober Carrie asked to see her mother. [/color][/u]"The thing that stands out in my mind," says Frank Beard, a program counselor who served as Hamilton's surrogate parent during her year in the Houston program, "is how much she cherished her sobriety."
At 17, she briefly stumbled and took to life on the streets, supporting herself with odd jobs and small music gigs before checking back into rehab. This time around, she experienced what she described as an epiphany: "I knew I wanted to be a rock star, and I couldn't do that if I was dead." She stayed clean...................................................
LOL. You're shitting me. Which program? Do you know?
Yeah, I feel the same way about her. For some reason, I always associate her with visiting my grandmother, since most of my memories watching burnett were at my grandmother's house, eating buttered toast. Then I'd watch the price is right immediately afterwards.
Fuck I miss the 70s. That was a hell of a decade. (Although Im sure seedlings would disagree with me on that.)
Me too. TV from that era seems to be very important to me. My mom and I connected on some level with Burnett, Newhart, MASH etc. Good times. :D