Fornits
General Interest => Open Free for All => Topic started by: Anonymous on January 26, 2009, 12:26:40 AM
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If you went to a program by choice as an adult then you are not a program survivor. You are just an idiot who made a bad choice.
Psy needs to stop claiming he is the victim of an evil industry when he is only the victim of his own decision.
The difference between being in a program as an adult than being a child is like the difference between night and day.
As an adult you can walk out of a program at any time. You can just sign yourself out. You can not be forced into a program, you have to sign yourself in. But then you can walk out at any time. As an adult you can move away from your parents house, you don't have to listen to them. The experience of programs as an adult is totally different than being underage.
As a underage youth you have no choice in the matter of going. Your parents can have you taken even if you don't want to go. You do not sign yourself in. You can not leave when you want. You are imprisoned in every way imaginable.
Going to a program as an adult, and as a youth are two completely different experiences. Psy is not a program survivor, he is just some 18 year old too afraid to go out on his own, following his parents wishes even though he didn't have to. Now psy is a smart enough fella, he will come here and confuse the issue and say he was forced but that's not true. As an adult who signed himself in he could of left at any time, and always knew that there was an out. He was just too afraid to leave and go on his own, that's why he stayed.
I think the kids who go to programs as adults are idiots. They are scared, pathetic people desperate to please their parents, or too afraid to go do what they want instead of willingly becoming a program tool. I can understand the kids who sellout in the program who have no choice and cannot leave no matter what. But the ones who stayed willingly as adults, they were the worst example of self defeatism and chose to bend over and let the program fuck them even though they didn't have to. I have no respect for any one who willingly went to a program as an adult, and stayed even though they didn't have to. They are just like staff who stayed on at programs even after learning of how they really work. They are all just pathetic people too weak to do what's right.
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No, no, no. Psy suffered coercive persuasion thereby rendered helpless through induced mental illness. It’s not like he was addicted to drugs. People addicted to drugs need to accept personal responsibility for their actions. Psy’s choices will bw understood by through illness.
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Let's address a few misconceptions here:
1. I signed myself into a program. [false] An educational consultant told my parents that what I was going to was a boarding school. I signed myself into a boarding school. Ask me what was advertised and what was delivered. I wasn't the only one who felt the place was misrepresented in retrospect. My parents and I were not getting along at the time (various reason which have been elaborated before). I had no drug or alcohol problem and I wanted to go to a boarding school. I did not want to go to a program and would not have signed myself in to such a place had I made the decision with fully informed consent. I would never have consented to the mindfucking that went on there. Wouldn't the price have alarmed me? Well. We knew it was expensive at the time but didn't think much of it other than "if it's that expensive, it must be good". My dad's employer was paying so we didn't care much.
2. I could leave at any time. [false] My only form of identification was taken from me. I was not the only one that this was done to (as is evidenced by this video here (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=24219&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&hilit=ylf+benchmark&start=165#p303168)) If I was to leave the program would not allow me to take any of my property, clothing, food, etc. There was nowhere to go and no homeless shelters in the area. At the same time, they held the carrot on the stick of graduation and a high school diploma in front of me. We were bashed down in group daily, forced to confess to "issues" we didn't have until we believed it, etc... At the same time, they told us day after day that we could not make it without the program. (they were right, due to practical concerns, but this enforced dependency and brainwashing did nothing to help things). We were told that we had signed away our rights when we came to the program. I was no lawyer, nor was anybody else, and we had no way of verifying this true or false. Staff told us this was common practice at "treatment centers" (lol... but that's not what I signed up for).
I could go on and on, but if you weren't there, you are in no position to judge. They had every angle covered and the place was just not very nice at all. I know a guy who was in both PV and Benchmark and says that Benchmark was worse. Similarly, I know a girl who was in SRA, SUWS, and Benchmark. She says Benchmark was worse. I know a guy who was in SLS and Benchmark. He says Benchmark was worse. I know a girl who was in RMA and Benchmark. She says Benchmark was worse. Now all these are subjective experiences, but I can't recall speaking to a single person who went to Benchmark and another program who said the other program was worse. It just was not a nice place. If you want to read more about it, check out the site in my sig.
I might also note that WWASP has over 18 programs as well, which are probably no picnic either. What good are legal rights if the programs don't give a shit about any rights at all. There is a world of difference between theory and practice, law and enforcement in programs. The practice of over 18 programs is growing in popularity, apparently, as they're figuring out ways to make more money. Another over 18 program just got into trouble with the law too:
viewtopic.php?f=49&t=25961&p=317935#p317932 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=25961&p=317935#p317932)
They denied rights, etc... too.
And sure, maybe I didn't get the worst of things, but I saw others who got treated worse, and many of the kids had been in programs for almost their entire teen years. Got any compassion for them?
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No, no, no. Psy suffered coercive persuasion thereby rendered helpless through induced mental illness. It’s not like he was addicted to drugs. People addicted to drugs need to accept personal responsibility for their actions. Psy’s choices will bw understood by through illness.
Brainwashing (coercive persuasion) is not a mental illness. It's an induced psychological state. What you're attempting to argue is not a good defense for the disease concept. And no, Brainwashing does not absolve a person from personal responsibility for their actions (unless you want to excuse staff for everything they did... need I remind you how many programs recruit from within, or from other programs). It helps explain things, yes, but "it's not my fault, I was brainwashed" is not an excuse either. In Nazi Germany, many of the Nazis were more or less brainwashed from birth and raised in the Nazi Youth (http://http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=QyW-3YC2IVQ) (watch that video). Does that mean that the brainwashing excused them from their actions? No (though it helps explain them).
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No, no, no. Psy suffered coercive persuasion thereby rendered helpless through induced mental illness. It’s not like he was addicted to drugs. People addicted to drugs need to accept personal responsibility for their actions. Psy’s choices will bw understood by through illness.
Brainwashing (coercive persuasion) is not a mental illness. It's an induced psychological state. What you're attempting to argue is not a good defense for the disease concept. And no, Brainwashing does not absolve a person from personal responsibility for their actions (unless you want to excuse staff for everything they did... need I remind you how many programs recruit from within, or from other programs). It helps explain things, yes, but "it's not my fault, I was brainwashed" is not an excuse either. In Nazi Germany, many of the Nazis were more or less brainwashed from birth and raised in the Nazi Youth (http://http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=QyW-3YC2IVQ) (watch that video). Does that mean that the brainwashing excused them from their actions? No (though it helps explain them).
not getting involved in this "disease argment" (not sure what you guys are talking about) but Nazis weren't "brainwashed." Educate yourself on the difference between propaganda, indoctrination, and thought reform.
The state of being "brainwashed" is an experience of mental illness. It's an induced, negative "rewiring" of the brain. Long term follow-up of brainwashing victims in Canada found that they were permentanly "grossly disabled" and childlike. I'm not sure how you are differenciating between Mental illness and psychological state. It's lingering effects had an explicit catagory in the DSM and has a less explicit one now.
Staff aren't "brainwashed", unless they were kids who had been victimized themselves by a gulag at an earlier time. Your program may not have practised "brainwashing," so i can't say what your experience of the staff's guilt level would be.
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Let's address a few misconceptions here:
1. I signed myself into a program. [false] An educational consultant told my parents that what I was going to was a boarding school. I signed myself into a boarding school. Ask me what was advertised and what was delivered. I wasn't the only one who felt the place was misrepresented in retrospect. My parents and I were not getting along at the time (various reason which have been elaborated before). I had no drug or alcohol problem and I wanted to go to a boarding school. I did not want to go to a program and would not have signed myself in to such a place had I made the decision with fully informed consent. I would never have consented to the mindfucking that went on there. Wouldn't the price have alarmed me? Well. We knew it was expensive at the time but didn't think much of it other than "if it's that expensive, it must be good". My dad's employer was paying so we didn't care much.
2. I could leave at any time. [false] My only form of identification was taken from me. I was not the only one that this was done to (as is evidenced by this video here (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=24219&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&hilit=ylf+benchmark&start=165#p303168)) If I was to leave the program would not allow me to take any of my property, clothing, food, etc. There was nowhere to go and no homeless shelters in the area. At the same time, they held the carrot on the stick of graduation and a high school diploma in front of me. We were bashed down in group daily, forced to confess to "issues" we didn't have until we believed it, etc... At the same time, they told us day after day that we could not make it without the program. (they were right, due to practical concerns, but this enforced dependency and brainwashing did nothing to help things). We were told that we had signed away our rights when we came to the program. I was no lawyer, nor was anybody else, and we had no way of verifying this true or false. Staff told us this was common practice at "treatment centers" (lol... but that's not what I signed up for).
LOL.
You could have left without your I.D. People do loose their I.D., and manage to continue. You could have called left, called 911, and went from there.
Take responsibility and feel shame about your choices. You were an adult who stayed at a school and are now making excuses. That’s the problem I have with the “brainwashing model,” people blaming things on an altered psychological states or mental illness & loosing personal accountability.
there is no such thing as brainwashing, concurJeffrey Schaler and Dr. Thomas Szasz, two brilliant minds I know you find authoritative…
Dr. Thomas Szasz,clarified the myth of brainwashing in his article "Some Call It Brainwashing"
“Like many dramatic terms, "brainwashing" is a metaphor. A person can no more wash another's brain with coercion or conversation than he can make him bleed with a cutting remark…..we do not call all types of personal or psychological influences "brainwashing." We reserve this term for influences of which we disapprove”
And the formidable Shcaler,
Behavior is a choice Contrary to conventional wisdom regarding cults, people are not put under a spell or held in some kind of hypnotic trance, where they do things they ordinarily wouldn’t do, or act in ways they do not want to act.... On a psychological level, no one can make another person feel guilty or feel any particular way in order to do or not do something, independent of their choosing.
I could go on and on, but if you weren't there, you are in no position to judge.
We are educating you. We are qualified. Some of us run internet forums and have high school educations.
Hopefully you will accept responsibility for your past and embrace the healing shame you recomend for others with mental illnesses you personally haven't experienced. Be pretty hypocritical of you not to.
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Will you leave me alone about Schaler. You're bordering on obsessive with this. I do not agree with him on Brainwashing (I do, however, agree with him on addiction) nor do I agree with S A T A N. Why? Because I don't hold people responsible for things they do with good intentions. When a person is brainwashed, they often do things that otherwise would have been unconscionable with their prior ethics. When a person is brainwashed, they take on what Margaret Singer calls a "pseudopersonality" where their ethics and even identity is replaced with that of the group. Schaler thinks this can't happen. Then again, he's studied addiction and not cults. I cited him as a source on addiction not cults. The only people who might cite him as a source on cults would be the clams (and I have no love at all for them).
I didn't cite Szasz. Don't cite sources I didn't. That being said, every source I've cited you've attacked on a personal level, not bothering to actually address their arguments. Even a broken clock is right twice a day. The only real problem I have with the CCHR is that it's a clam front and they do things as part of a religious crusade, not for the right motives. Szasz, despite his flaws, believes in the legalization of all drugs and the abolition of all forced treatment. Were it not a clam front, I would consider being a member.
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OP
And the kids that turned 18 in program?
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And the kids admitted into benchmark while still 17 (check their enrollment contract. They do this.)?
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OP
And the kids that turned 18 in program?
If they were being abused, they would leave. If they choose to stay past the age of 18 the program is committing an illegal act, and they can call the police, or sue once they get out and charge the program with kidnapping. But I imagine you are talking about the kids who turn 18 in the program, and have the option of leaving or staying which usually involves some sort of blackmail in one form or another. Well if a kid is being abused, then no threat of withholding an ID or anything else would stop them from leaving. If the kid is being abused and they choose to stay, then they are a weak and self hating individual. You can't blame the program for that. Sure you can gripe that you would rather be in a program than be homeless, but the choice between being abused and walking free into the unknown is a very easy choice if you are actually being abused. Parents kick their adult children out of the house all the time, should we start referring to that situation as program abuse as well? I don't think so.
I would never have consented to the mindfucking that went on there.
Well once you figured it out, which should of been VERY quick if it's as bad as you say, why didn't you just leave? Would they tackle you to the ground for running and imprison you in a locked room so you couldn't leave? If you ran, would they of called the cops who would retrieve you and place you back in the program? That's what happens in a program when you try to leave. You were in an adult treatment facility which is different than a troubled teen program.
Wouldn't the price have alarmed me? Well. We knew it was expensive at the time but didn't think much of it other than "if it's that expensive, it must be good". My dad's employer was paying so we didn't care much.
Didn't you say your dad's employer was the govt. so the taxpayer payed for your treatment. No wonder your family didn't care about price.
I could leave at any time. [false] My only form of identification was taken from me. I was not the only one that this was done to (as is evidenced by this video here) If I was to leave the program would not allow me to take any of my property, clothing, food, etc. There was nowhere to go and no homeless shelters in the area.
You know that's not true. You could of signed yourself out. If you were being treated badly, you would of done so, ID or not. You make it seem like they were going to strip you down completely naked and shove you out into a crime riddled ghetto where nobody could ever survive on their own. That might be your perception of the situation, but it's not the reality.
At the same time, they held the carrot on the stick of graduation and a high school diploma in front of me.
If you were being abused or treated badly, a high school diploma would be irrelevant to your decision whether to stay or go. Human beings naturally flee situations that harm them continuously. The fact you could make a rational choice in this way to consider your educational future shows me it must of not been that bad.
We were bashed down in group daily, forced to confess to "issues" we didn't have until we believed it, etc... At the same time, they told us day after day that we could not make it without the program. (they were right, due to practical concerns, but this enforced dependency and brainwashing did nothing to help things). We were told that we had signed away our rights when we came to the program. I was no lawyer, nor was anybody else, and we had no way of verifying this true or false. Staff told us this was common practice at "treatment centers" (lol... but that's not what I signed up for).
How about trying to walk out the front door, and seeing what happened. You don't need to be a lawyer to understand a group of staffers physically barring you from walking out the door, if that was the case. It's hard to argue ignorance, when all you had to do was try, which you would of done had the situation been deserving.
You were over 18 and signed yourself into treatment. You could of left at any time. Nobody forced you to go or to stay. These are all facts. For someone to claim they were being abused in a situation they had every right to walk out of, is hard for me swallow.
To me it either means the person was not being abused as they claim, or that they are a weak and pathetic person who willingly takes abuse because they are too afraid to leave and go out on their own, or disappoint their family. Those who entered programs as 18 year old's have no right to compare their experience to that of underage youths forced to endure a situation completely out of their control in every way.
I don't see how an adult is going to stay in a situation where they are being abused if they are not physically forced to do so. If they do, then like I said they are pathetic and weak and deserve no respect and hardly have the right to call themselves a survivor. They are only a survivor of their own poor choices, fear and self doubt.
No wonder psy has such disdain for AA. To him an AA meeting is no different than a program. People willingly attend AA meetings on their own as adults. Psy willingly attended benchmark as an adult. You can walk out of an AA meeting if you don't like it. Psy could of walked out of benchmark if he didn't like it. If you go to AA and you are not an alcoholic, then complain about it, then you are an idiot. If you go to a drug rehab when you're not a drug addict, guess what... you're also an idiot.
And the kids admitted into benchmark while still 17 (check their enrollment contract. They do this.)?
If they were being abused I would expect them to walk out of the door on their 18th birthday. If they stay, then they can hardly claim they were being abused all that time then. If they do stay, and then later claim abuse, they are admitting they willingly let the program abuse them by choice. That's hard to believe, even for the most pathetic type of person that they would let themselves be abused and not walk out. If that's what really happened, then they have nobody to blame but themselves.
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I've explained all this before. Use the search feature. I can't be arsed to look the shit up right now. If you have the balls, you can call me on my phone and we can discuss this at length (+1802 332 6472). I don't have time to type out a lengthy point by point response right now (especially one that i've already done).
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I've explained all this before. Use the search feature. I can't be arsed to look the shit up right now. If you have the balls, you can call me on my phone and we can discuss this at length (+1802 332 6472). I don't have time to type out a lengthy point by point response right now (especially one that i've already done).
It's hard to argue against the truth. The facts remain, you signed yourself in as an adult. You could of signed yourself out at any time. If you had any balls, you would of walked out the minute you realized it wasn't a "boarding school".
Psy is not a troubled teen program survivor, just some adult who signed himself into unnecessary treatment. How utterly pathetic.
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I've explained all this before. Use the search feature. I can't be arsed to look the shit up right now. If you have the balls, you can call me on my phone and we can discuss this at length (+1802 332 6472). I don't have time to type out a lengthy point by point response right now (especially one that i've already done).
It's hard to argue against the truth. The facts remain, you signed yourself in as an adult. You could of signed yourself out at any time. If you had any balls, you would of walked out the minute you realized it wasn't a "boarding school".
Psy is not a troubled teen program survivor, just some adult who signed himself into unnecessary treatment. How utterly pathetic.
That's not true, but again, if you want to discuss this at length, go ahead and call me number. Block your number if you feel like it. I'll still answer. If you're really interested in finding out exactly how they kept us at Benchmark after the age of 18 (logistically and otherwise), call me. Otherwise, if you're not interested in an explanation and are merely trying to upset me, good luck. I've heard it all before.
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OP
I agree - all kids should have a set of 'battle tested' brass balls by the age of 12.
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That's not true, but again, if you want to discuss this at length, go ahead and call me number. Block your number if you feel like it. I'll still answer. If you're really interested in finding out exactly how they kept us at Benchmark after the age of 18 (logistically and otherwise), call me. Otherwise, if you're not interested in an explanation and are merely trying to upset me, good luck. I've heard it all before.
Of course it's true, these are simple facts. You signed yourself in as an adult. You could of left at any time, as an adult. Did they physically stop you from leaving? Did they put you in a locked room or handcuff you to a chair? If so, then why haven't you pressed charges for imprisonment and kidnapping?
A program offering you a relatively comfortable living situation if you conform to their standards, or nothing, is a situation that all adult teenagers must go through. Parents have rules in their homes and if the kids don't follow it, the parents can kick their kid out. You were not forced to attend a program. You were not forced to stay. You could of left at any time. These facts speak for themselves. Willingly signing yourself into a drug treatment as an adult, is completely different than being placed without choice and physically forced into a program as a underage youth with no choice in when it ends.
I know you want to believe otherwise. That's why I predicted you would come on this thread and attempt to argue against these truths. But you know what, it doesn't make any sense to me. If someone was being abused and had the choice to leave, they would do it. Even if it means not having an ID or money or anything.
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OP
I agree - all kids should have a set of 'battle tested' brass balls by the age of 12.
This thread is about 18 year olds in programs not 12 year olds. These are adults who sign themselves in and know that they can leave whenever they want. They have the rights that come with being an adult citizen in the US. 12 year olds do not have rights, and that's why signing yourself into a program when you are 18 is completely different than being placed in one when you are 12. At that age you have no choice in the matter of placement, no say in when you leave and no rights whatsoever. When you turn 18 it's a totally different deal. You can leave whenever you want. Yes programs can choose not to give you any money but if you are being abused that wouldn't matter.
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Unless you have been in a similar situation you cannot say how you would react. It comes down to two words "prove it". The cops would have to prove that the staff did commit illegal acts, in such case it would be one person's word against another, since other teenagers enrolled who have been treated in a similar fashion would face retaliation by staff as well. It's not a hard scenario to imagine, if you are truly convinced that what you are saying is true and you want to understand how and why he acted the way he did then call psy. Unless of course you just want to make a spectacle of yourself at the expense of another person.
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Unless you have been in a similar situation you cannot say how you would react. It comes down to two words "prove it". The cops would have to prove that the staff did commit illegal acts, in such case it would be one person's word against another, since other teenagers enrolled who have been treated in a similar fashion would face retaliation by staff as well. It's not a hard scenario to imagine, if you are truly convinced that what you are saying is true and you want to understand how and why he acted the way he did then call psy. Unless of course you just want to make a spectacle of yourself at the expense of another person.
Oh please, get over yourself. Your post doesn't even make sense. This is a forum to discuss topics related to the troubled teen industry. Given this topic is about the troubled adult industry I put it in the open free for all. Why the hell would I want to talk to any of you on the phone? :rofl: He can post here in the discussion forum if he has a response. If he doesn't have anything to say then he doesn't have to post. It's not that complicated, it's as if you don't understand the concept of a discussion forum.
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It's not a hard scenario to imagine, if you are truly convinced that what you are saying is true and you want to understand how and why he acted the way he did then call psy.
And that goes for anybody here who wants to hear my side of it. I just don't have time to write it out right now (I already have anyway, if you use the search) since i'm working on my portfolio.
See. Sculpting an alien:
http://3dbrush.kriska.hvosting.net/foru ... topic=2143 (http://3dbrush.kriska.hvosting.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=2143)
Fornits ain't the only forum i post on. I'm not gonna suspend my life at the whim of some ignorant/bitter asshole who wants a redundant response (information is already out there).
Right now i'm working on the hands but having a bit of an issue with retopology:
http://3dbrush.kriska.hvosting.net/foru ... topic=2144 (http://3dbrush.kriska.hvosting.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=2144)
Here's my most recent render (see attached):
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I just don't have time to write it out right now
You seem to have plenty of time to go on for pages with kathyS. Why not help everyone understand how it is an adult was forced into and to stay in a program, and yet you have not pressed charges against the program for false imprisonment? To me it doesn't make any sense how an adult signing into rehab is the same as a 12 year old placed without choice.
You can change the subject and offer for people to call you, which you know nobody will because they actually have better things to do than call up random weirdos from the internet. Why don't you want to talk about this subject? It's because there are facts that cannot be dismissed or ignored. As an adult you had a different experience than a underage youth in a program because you always knew if it got too bad you could just walk out. I want to know why someone who claims they were in abusive situation stayed there even though they had the choice to leave. Why would someone willingly let themselves get abused when they didn't have to? It doesn't make any sense. Unless the "abuse" was better than walking out onto the street, which suggests it wasn't really abuse.
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I turned 18 in a program like many of my peers.
Hell, some kids stayed after they were 18 and used the last few dollars of their family trust to pay for the final year knowing that when they graduated they wouldn't have a nickel to their name. I recall only a small handful of people leaving when they turned 18. I'm sure there are plenty of them that now regret leaving.
Looking back on it I wish I would have gotten the fuck out of there on day 1. It took me 15 years to fully realize this.
This is the entire point. You get sucked into the programs warped version of reality, believe it and live it.
You don't have first hand or related experience on the subject .
If you bothered to properly research the subject and develop a true understanding of the issue you wouldn't come across like a date rape advocate at a Klan rally.
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I turned 18 in a program like many of my peers.
Hell, some kids stayed after they were 18 and used the last few dollars of their family trust to pay for the final year knowing that when they graduated they wouldn't have a nickel to their name. I recall only a small handful of people leaving when they turned 18. I'm sure there are plenty of them that now regret leaving.
Looking back on it I wish I would have gotten the fuck out of their on day 1. It took me 15 years to fully realize this.
This is the entire point. You get sucked into the programs warped version of reality, believe it and live it.
You don't have first hand or related experience on the subject .
If you bothered to properly research the subject and develop a true understanding of the issue you wouldn't come across like a date rape advocate at a Klan rally.
So you claim you were brainwashed? To the point you couldn't recognize that you were being abused? I find that extremely hard to believe. If you were being abused then you wouldn't "believe it and live it", you would be desperately wanting to escape it.
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Welcome to Alice in Wonderalnd - down the rabbit hole you will go.
It's awfully anxiety provoking.
Perhaps you should just turn back now. You can't unsee the things you will see.
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Unless the "abuse" was better than walking out onto the street, which suggests it wasn't really abuse.
Again, walking out wasn't really an option and if what you're describing was accurate, I would say you would have a point. In any case, read the description in my signature of what Benchmark was like and come to your own conclusions of whether or not what some of the things they did were abusive. I never claimed Benchmark physically abused kids (apart from maybe the Benchmark "diet"). I was quite clear it was almost exclusively verbal and psychological, as was CEDU, it's progenitor. Synanon had a strict non-violence rule which CEDU inherited. That being said the verbal confrontation was harsh enough to convince people to confess and even believe in things they did not do and problems they objectively did not have. Clearly you do not understand how cults work. I'm sorry if you suffered abuse in a physically abusive program (I assume that's why you're so bitter), but to discount all other forms of abuse is a slap in the face to a good 70% of this forum's population. Consider yourself lucky that you didn't get convinced you had problems you didn't, and have to work that out later in life. Consider yourself lucky you weren't convinced by the program that you were a worthless less-than-human being who had no ability to live on his own. Consider yourself lucky you weren't beaten down that far, but don't dare judge if you were never there.
Again, if you want to know about the logistics of what went on, call me or use the search function. I've already explained it at least five times before (but I lost my bookmarks on my other machine).
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So you claim you were brainwashed? To the point you couldn't recognize that you were being abused? I find that extremely hard to believe. If you were being abused then you wouldn't "believe it and live it", you would be desperately wanting to escape it.
Abuse was reframed as "help" or "therapy". Since we had no pre-existing concept of what those things entailed, we assumed that's what they were. Everybody around us was saying "you're just like us and you don't even know it". "You are just in denial. I was like you once but I came to realize that I needed help and this program is saving my life". "You won't progress in this program until you admit your issue". And so on and so forth. Most kids who were there either because they thought it was a boarding school, or for reason such as ADHD or whatever _all_ ended up admitting to and a very large portion of them actually believing their trumped up confessions. If you think this is fiction, go read some Robert J Lifton.
http://www.rickross.com/reference/brain ... Confession (http://www.rickross.com/reference/brainwashing/brainwashing19.html#The%20Cult%20of%20Confession)
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Unless the "abuse" was better than walking out onto the street, which suggests it wasn't really abuse.
Again, walking out wasn't really an option and if what you're describing was accurate, I would say you would have a point. In any case, read the description in my signature of what Benchmark was like and come to your own conclusions of whether or not what some of the things they did were abusive. I never claimed Benchmark physically abused kids (apart from maybe the Benchmark "diet"). I was quite clear it was almost exclusively verbal and psychological, as was CEDU, it's progenitor. Synanon had a strict non-violence rule which CEDU inherited. That being said the verbal confrontation was harsh enough to convince people to confess and even believe in things they did not do and problems they objectively did not have. Clearly you do not understand how cults work. I'm sorry if you suffered abuse in a physically abusive program (I assume that's why you're so bitter), but to discount all other forms of abuse is a slap in the face to a good 70% of this forum's population. Consider yourself lucky that you didn't get convinced you had problems you didn't, and have to work that out later in life. Consider yourself lucky you weren't convinced by the program that you were a worthless less-than-human being who had no ability to live on his own. Consider yourself lucky you weren't beaten down that far, but don't dare judge if you were never there.
Again, if you want to know about the logistics of what went on, call me or use the search function. I've already explained it at least five times before (but I lost my bookmarks on my other machine).
I do consider myself lucky, I never had to go to a program. But if I signed myself in after I turned 18 and then I got abused I would of walked out, I know that much. I'll read your link and maybe that will answer my questions, because as I understand it now I don't think comparing the choice of going to a program as an adult is on par with being forced to stay as a underage youth. It doesn't make sense to me why anybody would willingly stay and get abused when they could leave on their own whenever they wanted.
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I do consider myself lucky, I never had to go to a program. But if I signed myself in after I turned 18 and then I got abused I would of walked out, I know that much.
Read up on Margaret Singer's "Not Me Myth".
http://www.ideajournal.com/articles.php?id=12 (http://www.ideajournal.com/articles.php?id=12)
More Is in her book, "Cults in our Midst".
If you were never there, you can't judge.
I'll read your link and maybe that will answer my questions, because as I understand it now I don't think comparing the choice of going to a program as an adult is on par with being forced to stay as a underage youth. It doesn't make sense to me why anybody would willingly stay and get abused when they could leave on their own whenever they wanted.
Then you have a lot to learn (though "willingly" is stretching it). Watch Over The GW, read up on the CEDU forum, ask questions. I'm sorry I don't have time to answer all of yours now. If I have time, maybe tomorrow i'll answer your questions on how, logistically, it was made difficult (nigh on impossible) to successfully emancipate without the program.
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Or sit back, relax and crack yourself open a tall glass of Liam...
Cedu Documentary Clip 4 - Raps
http://liamscheff.com/daily/2008/10/08/ ... ip-4-raps/ (http://liamscheff.com/daily/2008/10/08/cedu-documentary-clip-4-raps/)
the Cedu Documentary. Students experience their first “Raps,” Cedu’s three-times-weekly, four-hour “attack therapy,” and based on the Synanon “Game.”
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Once you are brainwashed, you really don't have choices. Have you heard of Elizebeth Smart of Patty Hearst? Less famous is the prison warden's wife who after being abducted by an escaping felon...continued to live with him for 11 years, working in a chicken slaughterhouse
this is the story of colleen stam. she was abducted became so brainwashed she held down a job but returned to her captor every night. in court, her captor's defense team challeneged the "brainwashing" defense, claiming she was there volentarily, but she was victorius.
"Legally" brainwashing exists. And psy was brainwashed.
http://www.runshaw.ac.uk/groups/16-18%2 ... mind-4.pdf (http://www.runshaw.ac.uk/groups/16-18%20Marketing/PDFs/Inmind-4.pdf)
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I've explained all this before. Use the search feature. I can't be arsed to look the shit up right now. If you have the balls, you can call me on my phone and we can discuss this at length (+1802 332 6472). I don't have time to type out a lengthy point by point response right now (especially one that i've already done).
It's hard to argue against the truth. The facts remain, you signed yourself in as an adult. You could of signed yourself out at any time. If you had any balls, you would of walked out the minute you realized it wasn't a "boarding school".
Psy is not a troubled teen program survivor, just some adult who signed himself into unnecessary treatment. How utterly pathetic.
That's not true, but again, if you want to discuss this at length, go ahead and call me number. Block your number if you feel like it. I'll still answer. If you're really interested in finding out exactly how they kept us at Benchmark after the age of 18 (logistically and otherwise), call me. Otherwise, if you're not interested in an explanation and are merely trying to upset me, good luck. I've heard it all before.
How do you block a #?
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Unless the "abuse" was better than walking out onto the street, which suggests it wasn't really abuse.
Again, walking out wasn't really an option and if what you're describing was accurate, I would say you would have a point. In any case, read the description in my signature of what Benchmark was like and come to your own conclusions of whether or not what some of the things they did were abusive. I never claimed Benchmark physically abused kids (apart from maybe the Benchmark "diet"). I was quite clear it was almost exclusively verbal and psychological, as was CEDU, it's progenitor. Synanon had a strict non-violence rule which CEDU inherited. That being said the verbal confrontation was harsh enough to convince people to confess and even believe in things they did not do and problems they objectively did not have. Clearly you do not understand how cults work. I'm sorry if you suffered abuse in a physically abusive program (I assume that's why you're so bitter), but to discount all other forms of abuse is a slap in the face to a good 70% of this forum's population. Consider yourself lucky that you didn't get convinced you had problems you didn't, and have to work that out later in life. Consider yourself lucky you weren't convinced by the program that you were a worthless less-than-human being who had no ability to live on his own. Consider yourself lucky you weren't beaten down that far, but don't dare judge if you were never there.
Again, if you want to know about the logistics of what went on, call me or use the search function. I've already explained it at least five times before (but I lost my bookmarks on my other machine).
I do consider myself lucky, I never had to go to a program. But if I signed myself in after I turned 18 and then I got abused I would of walked out, I know that much. I'll read your link and maybe that will answer my questions, because as I understand it now I don't think comparing the choice of going to a program as an adult is on par with being forced to stay as a underage youth. It doesn't make sense to me why anybody would willingly stay and get abused when they could leave on their own whenever they wanted.
o o c, why are you on this forum if you never went to a program? j.c.
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Unless the "abuse" was better than walking out onto the street, which suggests it wasn't really abuse.
Again, walking out wasn't really an option and if what you're describing was accurate, I would say you would have a point. In any case, read the description in my signature of what Benchmark was like and come to your own conclusions of whether or not what some of the things they did were abusive. I never claimed Benchmark physically abused kids (apart from maybe the Benchmark "diet"). I was quite clear it was almost exclusively verbal and psychological, as was CEDU, it's progenitor. Synanon had a strict non-violence rule which CEDU inherited. That being said the verbal confrontation was harsh enough to convince people to confess and even believe in things they did not do and problems they objectively did not have. Clearly you do not understand how cults work. I'm sorry if you suffered abuse in a physically abusive program (I assume that's why you're so bitter), but to discount all other forms of abuse is a slap in the face to a good 70% of this forum's population. Consider yourself lucky that you didn't get convinced you had problems you didn't, and have to work that out later in life. Consider yourself lucky you weren't convinced by the program that you were a worthless less-than-human being who had no ability to live on his own. Consider yourself lucky you weren't beaten down that far, but don't dare judge if you were never there.
Again, if you want to know about the logistics of what went on, call me or use the search function. I've already explained it at least five times before (but I lost my bookmarks on my other machine).
Synono violated its non-violence level, so did CEDU. incedentally
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Psy is okay for a white guy