Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Ursus on January 14, 2009, 02:20:27 PM
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Michael Joshua Reuben (http://http://www.legacy.com/bostonglobe/DeathNotices.asp?Page=Notice&PersonID=117741877)
REUBEN, Michael Joshua Age 22, of Sudbury, MA. Beloved son of John D. Reuben. Brother of Max H. Reuben. Musician, artist and sales executive. We will miss our child and the young man he became. Addiction was the illness that took him, but never the essence of who he was. Also survived by his loving grandmother, and numerous dear aunts, uncles, cousins and friends, including the Abreu and Reuben/Glanzman families of Somerville and the Frias family of Hudson. Donations may be made in his memory to: Saving Teens in Crisis Collaborative, a non-profit organization founded by John Reuben to assist troubled teens and their families struggling with substance abuse and other emotional issues.
www.savingteens.org (http://http://www.savingteens.org/)
P.O. Box 441363, West Somerville, MA 02144
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Dad helps others after son's struggle with addiction (http://http://www.metrowestdailynews.com/news/x72907923/Dad-helps-others-after-sons-struggle-with-addiction)
By Kathy Uek/Daily News staff
The MetroWest Daily News
Posted Sep 24, 2008 @ 01:13 AM
Last update Sep 24, 2008 @ 04:26 PM
SUDBURY —
Many people don't talk about the struggle over addiction.
Michael Reuben, 22, a successful sales professional, musician and artist, did. He also talked about his recovery and his day-to-day struggle to fight a drug relapse.
The Sudbury native died from a heroin overdose Sunday. After Reuben's death notice - which told of his addiction - was published, total strangers called to speak about the struggles of their addicted brothers, mothers, sons or themselves.
"I got so many e-mails telling me how courageous we are for even admitting this," said Reuben's father, John, of Sudbury.
People identified with Michael's life. "One man called to say, 'I've been sober for 45 years and I'm still struggling,"' said Michael's aunt Catherine Reuben.
"This isn't a kid who died in some shooting gallery surrounded by addicts," said his father. "That wasn't him. When people think of heroin addiction, they think of someone living this horrible dysfunctional life completely clouded by drugs. For most, like Michael, it's a battle against relapse. When Michael wasn't relapsing, he was living a normal life. He was a kid taking accountability for the disease, managing his life and supporting himself."
Reuben worked as a sales executive in Prescott, Ariz., for Lincoln-based Vendisys, a marketing firm his father owned. "He was one of our top performers dealing with high-level executives and working long hours. He had a lot going for him."
Michael was a good student, maintaining a 3.5 grade point average at Lincoln-Sudbury Regional High School until he got into drugs. Reuben's troubles with drugs began in the middle of his senior year with drinking, then marijuana and ultimately progressing to intravenous heroin, his father said. He left school before graduation and received his GED, said his father. His drug addiction progressed to intravenous heroin.
"In 2004, when I found out Michael had drug problems, I founded Saving Teens in Crisis Collaborative to help disadvantaged youths participate in programs too expensive for them.
"My son was in this situation and I knew I could only do so much," said John Reuben. "I used whatever resources and talents I have to help others."
Since losing his son, after the anger, anguish and remorse, John Reuben has poured himself into his nonprofit organization to provide resources to families, who fight a similar battle. He does it "to get something positive out of this tragedy and let people know this happens in fortunate and unfortunate families, in Malden, Somerville, Sudbury and Los Angeles," he said.
And he and his family remember the essence of Michael. "He had very good insight and a way of relating to people so they felt comfortable and could tell him anything," said John Reuben. "When Michael talked to you, he gave you his full attention and listened intently. I'm devastated he's gone. There's a hole in my heart that will never come close to being filled."
When his aunt Cathy thinks of Michael, she thinks of his dry wit and the fantastical places and creatures he painted.
Michael Joshua Reuben leaves his brother, Max, his grandmother and several aunts, uncles and cousins, including the Reuben/Glanzman families of Somerville and the Frias family of Hudson.
Memorial services are incomplete.
Memorial donations may be made to Save Teens in Crisis Collaboration, P.O. Box 441363, West Somerville, MA 02144.
Copyright © 2009 GateHouse Media, Inc.
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the Daily Courier
Obituary: Michael Joshua Reuben (http://http://www.dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=167&subsectionID=468&articleID=59197)
Monday, September 15, 2008
Michael Joshua Reuben, 22, of Prescott, Ariz., born Nov. 4, 1985, in Framingham, Mass., passed away Sept. 7, 2008, at his home in Prescott, Ariz.
A private cremation will take place at the Bradshaw Crematory in Prescott Valley, Ariz.
Arizona Ruffner Wakelin Funeral Home assisted the family with final arrangements.
Copyright 2009 Prescott Newspapers, Inc. The Daily Courier is the information source for Prescott area communities in Northern Arizona.
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Unfortunately, this is one of the reasons its so difficult to get rid of these places. Some people are clearly malignant narcissists, bent on guru status. Some are in it for the money. And then there's these people. They probably truly believe what they're saying. Their pain has caused them to seek out alternatives and accept things that they never would under normal circumstances. Someone said in another thread, "at least those parents did SOMEthing" rather than nothing. They feel helpless and are bound and determined to "save just one child". Then it's all worth it, right?
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Unfortunately, this is one of the reasons its so difficult to get rid of these places. Some people are clearly malignant narcissists, bent on guru status. Some are in it for the money. And then there's these people. They probably truly believe what they're saying. Their pain has caused them to seek out alternatives and accept things that they never would under normal circumstances. Someone said in another thread, "at least those parents did SOMEthing" rather than nothing. They feel helpless and are bound and determined to "save just one child". Then it's all worth it, right?
A parent like that will see his son in every other kid (as somebody who will DIE without treatment)... even the pot smokers, so sadly, yes. anything and everything is justified in that parent's mind. If you told that parent a lobotomy could save the kids, he'd jump on board 100%. They may have no sense of self or identity left, but at least they're "sober".
We've had heroin "addicts" on fornits who have quit that junk. Without a program and without AA too. Try convincing the father that the program attendance and powerlessness concept caused a 5 fold statistical increase in his binging. It's a fact the parent will never accept. No parent will face the truth if the truth means realizing that.
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Breaking News
Posted: Sep 13, 2008
Saving Teens In Crisis Collaborative
John Reuben Of Saving Teens Collaborative Remembers His Son (http://http://www.strugglingteens.com/artman/publish/SavingTeensCollaborativeBN_080913.shtml)
Contact:
John D. Reuben
Chairman & Founder
978-852-2144
http://www.savingteens.org (http://www.savingteens.org)
September 10, 2008
Many of you may have already heard about the passing of my son, Michael, this past weekend as the result of substance abuse related issues. As much as I have tried these many years, I could not help Mike escape the grip of his drugs of choice. And now I am faced with a void in my life that will be impossible to replace.
Substance abuse is a horrid disease, a plague on our society. In 2004 I realized that my son had this problem and looked for a constructive way to channel my energies from worrying about my son. I formed a non-profit called Saving Teens In Crisis Collaborative (STICC) to help disadvantaged families with their children. STICC provides long term, substantive care for the children and support for the rest of the family. To date we have helped several families, some of which you can read about on our website at http://www.savingteens.org (http://www.savingteens.org)
We are currently funding a family from Columbus, Ohio. His single Mom works three jobs and has watched her 14 year old son cycle into drug abuse and all that brings socially, academically, and legally. STICC will provide Billy with an environment where he can deal with his addiction, regain his academic initiative, and confront the emotional issues he has that in many cases can be the root of the problem. Afterwards we will provide the family transitional assistance to help Billy back into the mainstream and for the entire family to heal together.
I hope that you will think about my story, read about the families we have helped, and participate in this war on this disease, one kid at a time. Please do so by visiting our website at
https://app.etapestry.com/hosted/Saving ... ation.html (https://app.etapestry.com/hosted/SavingTeensinCrisisCollabo/OnlineDonation.html)
Let's not let this happen to one more parent than it needs to.
Copyright © 2009, Woodbury Reports, Inc.
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Michael was a good student, maintaining a 3.5 grade point average at Lincoln-Sudbury Regional High School until he got into drugs. Reuben's troubles with drugs began in the middle of his senior year with drinking, then marijuana and ultimately progressing to intravenous heroin, his father said. He left school before graduation and received his GED, said his father. His drug addiction progressed to intravenous heroin.
How many times are they going to repeat the phrase "progressed to intravenous heroin"? Bad writing, the editor should of caught that.
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Breaking News
Posted: Oct 6, 2008
Aspen Donates To Saving Teens Collaborative (http://http://www.strugglingteens.com/artman/publish/AspenBN_081006.shtml)
Contact:
Kristen Hayes
Communications Director
562-467-5531
http://www.aspeneducation.com (http://www.aspeneducation.com)
October 3, 2008
Aspen Education Group would like to thank the following programs for participating in the Fourth Annual Professional Development Workshop Sept. 24-25, 2008 gift basket give-away:
Academy at Swift River
Aspen Achievement Academy
Aspen Institute
Aspen Ranch
Bromley Brook School
Copper Canyon Academy
EXCEL Academy of Texas
Island View
Mount Bachelor Academy
New Leaf Academy -- Oregon
NorthStar Center
Outback Therapeutic Expeditions (2)
Passages to Recovery
SageWalk
SunHawk Academy (2)
SUWS Adolescent & Youth Programs
Talisman Programs
Youth Care
Fortunately, we received so many exceptionally creative baskets this year that we decided to use a few as silent auction items and raise money for Saving Teens in Crisis Collaboration. As you may know, last month John D. Reuben, Chairman and Founder of Saving Teens In Crisis Collaborative lost his son Michael Reuben to the disease of addiction.
Saving Teens In Crisis Collaborative (STICC) is a 501(c)(3) non-profit organization formed in April of 2004 to assist troubled teens and their families struggling with substance abuse and other emotional issues. STICC works with health organizations, educational consultants, wilderness programs, boarding schools, rehabilitation centers and educational lawyers to fund and support these families as they complete the comprehensive therapeutic programs that they desperately need, but did not know about and could not afford.
By leveraging the expertise and generosity of dedicated professionals, caring institutions, other charities, government institutions and altruistic individuals, STICC guides children and their families toward a brighter future.
Therefore, in the spirit of giving and in memory of Michael Reuben and appreciation for his father John's selfless work, we set up a silent auction using the gift baskets donated by:
Aspen Ranch
Copper Canyon Academy
Island View
Passages to Recovery
Aspen matched the winning amount resulting in a total donation of $2,350 to STICC in Michael's honor.
Thank you for your donation and for being a part of this worthy cause!
(http://http://www.strugglingteens.com/artman/uploads/ziongroup08web.jpg)
This photo was taken in Zion National park on the drive back to Deer Valley after touring Turn About Ranch. Leslie Goldberg, Tamara Ancona, Jim Roche, Paula Rudy were the Ed Consultants on this tour. Clinical Professionals included Carolyn Hall, Douglas Cohen, Kelley White, Dana Schmitt, and Darla Rockholz.
Copyright © 2009, Woodbury Reports, Inc.
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How many times are they going to repeat the phrase "progressed to intravenous heroin"? Bad writing, the editor should of caught that.
It's not a mistake. Think about it. It's what they believe. "progressive disease" and all that junk. It is supposed to scare the shit out of parents with pot smoking teens (or even suspected pot smoking teens) and convince them that the next thing they know their kid is gonna have a needle in their arm... then DEAD.
deadinsaneinjail!
:beat:
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Is this teens in crissis place suposed to be a gulag?
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How many times are they going to repeat the phrase "progressed to intravenous heroin"? Bad writing, the editor should of caught that.
It's not a mistake. Think about it. It's what they believe. "progressive disease" and all that junk. It is supposed to scare the shit out of parents with pot smoking teens (or even suspected pot smoking teens) and convince them that the next thing they know their kid is gonna have a needle in their arm... then DEAD.
deadinsaneinjail!
:beat:
the pot-heroin line is not signified by disease theory, that's just an urban myth as far as i understand it. Read the article about addiction posted in the news section. the disease theory is hypothesis describing that addiction is a mental illness caused by altered chemical pathways. The brain is basically a muscle and how you treat it largely determines how it works. It's moldability explains the effectiveness of thought reform, and why abused kids often end up in such bad shape as adults.
:-[ :cry: ;)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disease_model_of_addiction (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disease_model_of_addiction)
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Is this teens in crissis place suposed to be a gulag?
No, looks more like an Ed-Con with a "charity" twist. They also rake in Juvenile Justice funds, and get freebies from Aspen.
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(http://http://www.savingteens.org/images/MikeandJohn1.JPG)
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How many times are they going to repeat the phrase "progressed to intravenous heroin"? Bad writing, the editor should of caught that.
It's not a mistake. Think about it. It's what they believe. "progressive disease" and all that junk. It is supposed to scare the shit out of parents with pot smoking teens (or even suspected pot smoking teens) and convince them that the next thing they know their kid is gonna have a needle in their arm... then DEAD.
deadinsaneinjail!
:beat:
the pot-heroin line is not signified by disease theory, that's just an urban myth as far as i understand it. Read the article about addiction posted in the news section. the disease theory is hypothesis describing that addiction is a mental illness caused by altered chemical pathways. The brain is basically a muscle and how you treat it largely determines how it works. It's moldability explains the effectiveness of thought reform, and why abused kids often end up in such bad shape as adults.
:-[ :cry: ;)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disease_model_of_addiction (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disease_model_of_addiction)
Not to get into another debate about the disease model or AA, but as I discussed on another thread, the AA concept of disease is VERY different than a medical one. The "disease" concept, as practiced by 99.99% of programs, is the AA one, and not the medical one.
this is more in line with my view on things:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life-proce ... _addiction (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life-process_model_of_addiction)
I don't wish to derail the thread, though, so if you want to discuss this, I would be happy to in a thread such as this one (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=26453&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=15#p322085).
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How many times are they going to repeat the phrase "progressed to intravenous heroin"? Bad writing, the editor should of caught that.
It's not a mistake. Think about it. It's what they believe. "progressive disease" and all that junk. It is supposed to scare the shit out of parents with pot smoking teens (or even suspected pot smoking teens) and convince them that the next thing they know their kid is gonna have a needle in their arm... then DEAD.
deadinsaneinjail!
:beat:
the pot-heroin line is not signified by disease theory, that's just an urban myth as far as i understand it. Read the article about addiction posted in the news section. the disease theory is hypothesis describing that addiction is a mental illness caused by altered chemical pathways. The brain is basically a muscle and how you treat it largely determines how it works. It's moldability explains the effectiveness of thought reform, and why abused kids often end up in such bad shape as adults.
:-[ :cry: ;)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disease_model_of_addiction (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disease_model_of_addiction)
Not to get into another debate about the disease model or AA, but as I discussed on another thread, the AA concept of disease is VERY different than a medical one. The "disease" concept, as practiced by 99.99% of programs, is the AA one, and not the medical one.
this is more in line with my view on things:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life-proce ... _addiction (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life-process_model_of_addiction)
I don't wish to derail the thread, though, so if you want to discuss this, I would be happy to in a thread such as this one (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=26453&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=15#p322085).
It might not be all that inappropriate, given that Michael Reuben died of a heroin overdose, if I am not mistaken.
Since his father sent him to a treatment program/teen gulag (looks like an Aspen one, given the associations), it would appear that said treatment was not based on a medical model.
In this case, the outcome was tragic, and final.
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Saving Teens In Crisis Collaborative
Our People (http://http://www.savingteens.org/)
Our goal is to provide a total solution to troubled teens in crisis and their families, with a methodology that incorporates both financial and emotional support throughout an 18-24 month process of evaluation, intervention and education.
The professionals and parents who make up the Saving Teens In Crisis Collaborative Board of Directors and Advisory Board reflect the varied disciplines needed to facilitate our mission, and assist us in their specific areas of expertise.
Board of Directors:
John Reuben, Founder & President
- Parent of 2 troubled teens who have been in therapeutic programs
- Executive in Software Sales and Marketing for over 25 years, including the founding of a significant software enterprise
Alexander Steffan, JD, MBA; Secretary & Treasurer
- Vice President and Senior Counsel at Haemonetics
Marilyn Engelman, PhD
- Certified Educational Planner, Founder of Educational Directions
- Specializes in comprehensive educational assessments, college and secondary placement, and therapeutic placement
Corey Hicks, BA
- Chief Executive Officer of Longevity Music, LLC
- Pastor and Founder of Philips International Outreach
- Former addict and alcoholic who has been clean and sober for over 14 years
Theresa Wing Hines
- Parent of a troubled teen who is currently in a therapeutic program
- President and Owner of One Pearl (http://http://www.onepearl.com/?promocode=sticc), a jewelry and textile design and import company
Marie Sigman, MS
- Educational Psychologist specializing in advocacy for students with learning challenges and in transition management of young adults from high school, including college placement
- Guidance Counselor and Teacher in Sudbury Massachusetts School System for more than 30 years
Advisory Board:
Tamara A. Ancona, MA, LPC, Member IECA
- Specializes in educational options and therapeutic alternatives for struggling teens and young adults
- Founder of TAG, a Transition Aftercare Program which helps students returning from a treatment setting reintegrate with their families and communities
- Member of the American Counseling Association (ACA), Learning Disabilities Association of Georgia (LDAG) and the Licensed Professional Counselors Association - Georgia Chapter (LPCA)
Leslie S. Goldberg, MEd, CEP, Member IECA
- Founder and President of Leslie S. Goldberg & Associates, LLC – Educational Consultants
The Goldberg Center for Educational Planning - Provider of therapeutic and educational placement advice for over twenty years
- Certified Guidance Counselor; periodic expert witness
Adam R. Goldberg, MEd, Member IECA
- Chief Executive Officer of Leslie S. Goldberg & Associates, LLC – Educational Consultants
The Goldberg Center for Educational Planning - Specialist in intervention planning for teens at risk
- Board Member of Learning Disabilities Worldwide
Sharon Levy, MD, MPH
- Director of Pediatrics for the Adolescent Substance Abuse Program at Children's Hospital in Boston
- Associate Researcher, Center for Adolescent Substance Abuse Research
Grant Leibersberger, MEd, MBA
- Financial Advisor who specializes in helping families finance therapeutic schools and programs
- Former Clinician and Director of an Outdoor Behavioral Healthcare Program
Scott P. Sells, PhD
- Founder of the Savannah Family Institute (SFI) - http://www.difficult.net (http://www.difficult.net)
- Author of two books: Parenting Your Out-Of-Control Teenager and Treating The Tough Adolescent
Lon Woodbury, MA, CEP, Member IECA
- Publisher of the Parent Empowerment Handbook, The Woodbury Report, and http://www.strugglingteens.com (http://www.strugglingteens.com)
- Prior to becoming an educational consultant, taught in the public school system, and worked with the U.S. Senate and the Executive Office of the President on public policy
Administrative:
Patricia R. Abreu, Executive Director
Copyright © 2007 Saving Teens In Crisis Collaborative
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oohh:
Lon Woodbury, MA, CEP, Member IECA
- Publisher of the Parent Empowerment Handbook, The Woodbury Report, and http://www.strugglingteens.com (http://www.strugglingteens.com)
- Prior to becoming an educational consultant, taught in the public school system, and worked with the U.S. Senate and the Executive Office of the President on public policy
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Michael was a good student, maintaining a 3.5 grade point average at Lincoln-Sudbury Regional High School until he got into drugs. Reuben's troubles with drugs began in the middle of his senior year with drinking, then marijuana and ultimately progressing to intravenous heroin, his father said. He left school before graduation and received his GED, said his father. His drug addiction progressed to intravenous heroin.
How many times are they going to repeat the phrase "progressed to intravenous heroin"? Bad writing, the editor should of caught that.
What they are trying to say is the child was using maybe alcohol, pot….then “progressed” to more potent drugs. Children/ adults rarely start out shooting up heroin as their first substance. They usually build up to it over time moving up the chain from lesser potent substances. Addiction is a progressive disease.
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Michael was a good student, maintaining a 3.5 grade point average at Lincoln-Sudbury Regional High School until he got into drugs. Reuben's troubles with drugs began in the middle of his senior year with drinking, then marijuana and ultimately progressing to intravenous heroin, his father said. He left school before graduation and received his GED, said his father. His drug addiction progressed to intravenous heroin.
How many times are they going to repeat the phrase "progressed to intravenous heroin"? Bad writing, the editor should of caught that.
What they are trying to say is the child was using maybe alcohol, pot….then “progressed” to more potent drugs. Children/ adults rarely start out shooting up heroin as their first substance. They usually build up to it over time moving up the chain from lesser potent substances. Addiction is a progressive disease.
Stanton peele, Ph.D has something to say on that:
Alcoholic Progression — A Drinking Problem Can Only Get Worse
The nineteenth-century view of alcoholic progression — that occasional drinkers become regular drinkers become alcoholics — is alive and well in the modern alcoholism movement. Now the idea is that anyone who ever has any problems with their drinking must either seek treatment or progress to inevitable, life-threatening alcoholism. "The ultimate consequences for a drinking alcoholic," Dr. G. Douglas Talbott says, "are these three: he or she will end up in jail, in a hospital, or in a graveyard."34
Of course, when you talk to alcoholics, you discover that they were early problem drinkers before they progressed to alcoholism. But the fact is, the large majority of problem drinkers outgrow their drinking problems, according to the national surveys conducted by Don Cahalan and his associates. Men often go through problem drinking periods, depending on their stage in the life cycle and the people they associate with, only to emerge from these when their life circumstances change. Incidentally, the large majority of these untreated former problem drinkers do not choose to abstain but continue drinking while diminishing or eliminating their problems. The largest group of problem drinkers is young men, but young drinkers show the highest rate of natural remission as they age.35
Several surveys conducted by Kaye Fillmore, of the Institute for Health and Aging (University of California, San Francisco), indicate that drinking problems that appear in college and late adolescence — problems up to and including blackout — rarely persist through middle age.36 Exactly similar data pertain to youthful drug abuse, and all research shows the tendency to use, to use regularly, and to be addicted to drugs drops off after adolescence and early adulthood.37 Apparently, as people mature they find they can achieve more meaningful rewards than those offered by drugs and overdrinking. These rewards are generally the conventional ones of family life and accomplishment at work that dominate adult life for most people, even most of those who had a drinking or drug problem earlier on.
Nor are children of alcoholics destined to progress to alcoholism when they drink. A large, long-term study of Tecumseh, Michigan, residents conducted by epidemiologists at the University of Michigan found that children of heavy-drinking parents most frequently choose to drink moderately themselves. Although alcoholics have more alcoholic offspring than average, the researchers noted, "alcoholic parental drinking only weakly invites imitation."38 It seems that people are quite capable of learning from observing a parent's alcoholism to avoid such problems themselves. In doing so, the researchers found, children are helped when the heavy drinker is the parent of the opposite sex. In addition, there was less imitation in this study of a heavy-drinking parent when the children as adults recalled the parent as having drinking problems.39 Finally, several studies of children of alcoholics have shown that, even after they themselves develop a drinking problem, they do better in treatment aimed at moderating drinking rather than at abstinence than do other problem drinkers.40
Although by far the largest percentage of those who outgrow a drinking or drug problem without treatment are younger, natural recovery in alcoholism and addiction is not limited to the young or to those who fall short of developing severe alcoholism.41 Those who have progressed to definite alcohol dependence also regularly escape from alcoholism on their own; indeed, natural remission for alcoholics may be more typical than not. In the words of British physician Milton Gross, who has focused on the biological aspects of alcohol dependence:
The foundation is set for the progression of the alcohol dependence syndrome by virtue of its biologically intensifying itself. One would think that, once caught up in the process, the individual could not be extricated. However, and for reasons poorly understood, the reality is otherwise. Many, perhaps most, do free themselves.42
A number of studies have now documented that such self-cure among alcoholics is common. These untreated but recovered alcoholics constitute, according to researcher Barry Tuchfeld, a "silent majority."43 Based on his research in Australia, psychiatrist Les Drew has described alcoholism as a "self-limiting" disease, one that creates pressures for its own cure even in the absence of outside interventions."44 In the words of Harold Mulford, "Contrary to the traditional clinical view of the alcoholism disease process, progress in the alcoholic process is neither inevitable nor irreversible. Eventually, the balance of natural forces shifts to decelerate progress in the alcoholic process and to accelerate the rehabilitation process."45
Source: http://www.peele.net/lib/diseasing3.html (http://www.peele.net/lib/diseasing3.html)
Alcoholism is only a progressive disease in the religion of the 12 steppers.
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Not to get into another debate about the disease model or AA, but as I discussed on another thread, the AA concept of disease is VERY different than a medical one. The "disease" concept, as practiced by 99.99% of programs, is the AA one, and not the medical one.
this is more in line with my view on things:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life-proce ... _addiction (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life-process_model_of_addiction)
I don't wish to derail the thread, though, so if you want to discuss this, I would be happy to in a thread such as this one (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=26453&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=15#p322085).
It might not be all that inappropriate, given that Michael Reuben died of a heroin overdose, if I am not mistaken.
Since his father sent him to a treatment program/teen gulag (looks like an Aspen one, given the associations), it would appear that said treatment was not based on a medical model.
In this case, the outcome was tragic, and final.
Board of Directors:
John Reuben, Founder & President
* Parent of 2 troubled teens who have been in therapeutic programs
* Executive in Software Sales and Marketing for over 25 years, including the founding of a significant software enterprise
Does anyone know which TTI program this kid was enrolled in?
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Stanton peele, Ph.D has something to say on that:
People here refer to this guy like they are quoting scripture. Looks like even the Anti-AA people have a Guru.
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Stanton peele, Ph.D has something to say on that:
People here refer to this guy like they are quoting scripture. Looks like even the Anti-AA people have a Guru.
I can quote others if you'd like, such as Jeffery Schaler, Ph.d (http://http://www.schaler.net/addictionisachoice/index.html). From the back of his book "Addiction is a Choice":
From the book cover:
"Politicians and the media tell us that people who take
drugs, including alcohol or nicotine, cannot help
themselves. They are supposedly victims of the disease of
'addiction', and they need 'treatment'. The same goes for
sex addicts, shopping addicts, food addicts, gambling
addicts, or even addicts to abusive relationships.
This theory, which grew out of the Temperance movement
and was developed and disseminated by the religious cult
known as Alcoholics Anonymous, has not been confirmed by
any factual research. Numerous scientific studies show
that 'addicts' are in control of their behavior.
Contrary to the shrill, mindless propaganda of the
'war on drugs', very few of the people who use alcohol,
marijuana, heroin, or cocaine will ever become 'addicted',
and of those who do become heavy drug users, most will
mature out of it in time, without treatment. Research
indicates that 'treatment' is completely ineffective, an
absolute waste of time and money.
Instead of looking at drug addiction as a disease, Dr.
Schaler proposes that we view it as willful commitment or
dedication, akin to joining a religion or pursuing a
romantic involvement. While heavy consumption of drugs is
often foolish and self-destructive, it is a matter of
personal choice."
"Herein, Dr. Schaler drives a stake into the heart of the
'disease' concept of addictions. Millions of people have
stopped smoking, abusing mind-altering drugs, and drinking
addictively on their own, without the intervention of
counselors or doctors or programs. Dr. Schaler explains
persuasively why and how this happens, despite all the
genetic and hormonal predispositions."
--JOSEPH GERSTEIN, M.D., F.A.C.P., Harvard Medical School;
Past President of SMART Recovery
"This is indeed a rare book. Schaler has produced a
unique, masterly work which explains addiction from a
revelatory perspective. The reader can learn how the
controversial area of addiction can be looked at and
understood in a new light."
--MORRIS CHAFETZ, M.D., Founding Director,
National Institute of Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism;
President, Health Education Foundation, Wash., D.C.
"Dr. Schaler has a hard-hitting, no-nonsense style which
for me made Addiction Is a Choice a clear and fascinating
read. The wealth of information and fresh insights reflect
the writer's career as scholar-teacher-therapist, and
especially his many years of research and practical work in
the addiction field. The book dispels many myths about
addiction and should provide liberating insights to the
afflicted. It deserves to have a major impact on the way
we think and act in our dealings with addictions."
--HERBERT FINGARETTE, Ph.D., Professor Emeritus of
Philosophy, University of California, Santa Barbara;
Author of "Heavy Drinking: The Myth of Alcoholism as a
Disease."
"Addiction Is a Choice" is a powerful antidote against the
twin poisons of anti-drug propaganda and drug prohibition."
--THOMAS SZASZ, M.D., Professor of Psychiatry Emeritus,
State University of New York Health Science Center,
Syracuse; Author of "Ceremonial Chemistry" and
"Our Right to Drugs"
From the book jacket:
'Addiction' is a fine old English word meaning
commitment, dedication, devotion, inclination, bent, or
attachment.
"Particular addictions may be good or bad. Some folk
are addicted to music, others to books, others to walks in
the country. Some are addicted to a religious doctrine or
community, be it the Roman Catholic, the Mormon, or the Zen
Buddhist. Others are addicted to a political philosophy,
like liberalism, socialism, or anarchism, or to a 'cause',
like animal rights or free trade.
"Some people are addicted to another person: perhaps
their spouse, perhaps their latest flame. Others are
addicted to a habit, like getting up early every morning.
Michelangelo was addicted to painting and sculpting,
Einstein was addicted to physics, Proust was addicted to
writing, Gandhi was addicted to independence for India.
Many others, of course, have been equally addicted to these
pursuits, but have lacked exceptional talent.
"Sometimes addictions fade gradually. The ardent
lover becomes the jaded husband, or the heavy drinker of
alcohol gradually moderates. Other times, one addiction is
suddenly replaced by another: the ardent lover of x
becomes the ardent lover of y, or the heavy drinker becomes
instead a born-again Christian. Malcolm X relates how
converts to the Nation of Islam quickly abandoned any of
their former drug-taking habits.
"An addiction is not exactly the same as habit, though
one can be addicted to a habit. John Stuart Mill refers to
'A man who causes grief to his family by addiction to bad
habits.' Addiction is a fondness for, or orientation
toward, some thing or activity, because it has meaning,
because it is considered valuable or even sacred. In some
cases, people may be addicted to something because they
find it enjoyable, and this, of course, also reflects their
values: such a person believes that the right way to live
is to seek enjoyment.
"Human life is always involved with addictions, and
would be wretched and worthless, perhaps even impossible,
without addictions. Addico, ergo sum. Yet human life can
be devastated or horribly blighted by ill-chosen
addictions. A simple example would be that of an
adolescent drawn into an apparently warm and benevolent
religious group, which only gradually comes forth in its
true colors as a destructive cult of collective suicide.
Another example might be a young person in the 1930s,
becoming a Communist or a National Socialist.
"Addictions are indispensable. Addictions--and only
addictions--can open us up to all that makes life rich and
fulfilling. Yet addictions can also have appalling
consequences. The conclusion is clear: choose your
addictions very carefully! Nothing is more vital for a
young person than to select the right addictions.
Addictions we approve of are called 'virtues'. Addictions
we disapprove of are called 'vices'.
"In recent years, the word 'addiction' has come to be
used with quite a different meaning. It is now taken to
refer to any activity which individuals engage in,
deliberately and consciously, and are physically unable to
stop themselves pursuing. Thus (it is claimed) the heroin
addict cannot refrain from injecting himself with heroin,
the alcohol addict or 'alcoholic' cannot refrain from
swallowing alcoholic beverages, Bill Clinton cannot refrain
from having sexual relations with his subordinates, the
overspending housewife cannot refrain from buying
'unnecessary' things in stores, and the compulsive gambler
cannot stop gambling.
"In this newfangled sense of 'addiction', I maintain
that 'addiction' is a myth. I deny that there is any such
thing as 'addiction', in the sense of a deliberate and
conscious course of action which the person literally cannot
stop doing. According to my view of the world, the heroin
addict can stop injecting himself with heroin, the alcohol
addict can stop himself from swallowing whisky, and so
forth. People are responsible for their deliberate and
conscious behavior. . . .
Arnold S. Trebach and others have rave reviews for the book too:
". . . Jeff Schaler has managed in one short book . . . to piss off most of the addiction universe--and to turn on their head many of the most cherished concepts that addiction experts have believed and promulgated for eons. This is a remarkable accomplishment."
--Arnold S. Trebach, Ph.D., J.D., Professor Emeritus, Department of Justice, Law and Society, School of Public Affairs, American University; Founder of the Drug Policy Foundation
"I think he has set up a straw man. Addiction researchers and therapists do not use such absolute terms. . . . The issue is whether our behaviour is determined by our chemical memories and the stimuli we meet; whether the experience we have of making choices is an illusion. . . . He credits the 'disease concept' proponents with little intelligence! . . . As part of his attack on 'the sanctity of the Therapeutic State and the economic interests of the growing treatment industry', Dr Schaler exposes 'The Project MATCH cover-up' . . . I share Dr Schaler's concern that commercial clinics can abuse the disease concept, persuading employers or families to coerce the 'sick person' into treatment which she does not wish and perhaps do not even need. Like him, I shudder at the way 'denial' is used as a defining symptom of illness by some clinics. If I deny that I have diabetes, does that mean I am likely to have diabetes? . . . Dr Schaler is right to warn of the danger that people might use the disease concept to absolve themselves from responsibility. . . . We need to be reminded of harmful consequences of too ready use of the disease concept - and Dr Schaler's book helps to keep a balance."
--Jonathan Chick, M.D.
"I think he should listen closely when AA members tell him that 'people who don't know better will be led astray' by his ideas with catastrophic results. . . . I advise you to read this book."
--Jack R. Anderson, M.D.
That's another book I advise you as your dark lord (tm) to read.
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Well, I don't really care about the AA debate one way or the other. I think it's much to do about nothing, in other words. a waste of time. But, I have noticed this Peele name come up a lot on this forum, and I don't understand why people put so much faith in what one person has to say. Sometimes this forum turns into a battle of links, like if you find someone to back up your views it somehow proves you right.
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Nah, just making sure people have all the information. You don't normally here criticisms of AA. People just take it almost as tradition that its a good thing or "the way". They really haven't been exposed to anything else. I believe that all opinions have some use.
Peele has a great site that explains things in pretty simple terms, so he's referred to a lot when discussing this type of stuff. As are AO and More Revealed. They've done a good bit of research and its all well sourced. And it is pretty telling to have a good many of the AA defenders flat refuse to read anything critical of AA at all. Again, I just can't imagine going through life that way.
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Stanton peele, Ph.D has something to say on that:
People here refer to this guy like they are quoting scripture. Looks like even the Anti-AA people have a Guru.
Peele runs a very expensive residential program. His "tools" are copywrited, if he can get it into treatment hospitals he'll be a millionare many times over!Keep quoting him, people. Spread his doctrine and teach the people.
THE LIFE PROCESS PROGRAM ©!
http://www.stgregoryctr.com/ (http://www.stgregoryctr.com/)
"Residential care is an important part of recovery" Is "it right for you or your loved ones"?
Prepare to be indoctrinated that you have a "dependancy" and a "disregard for consequences" and that you are unable to "recognize negetive consequences." You will be taught "life skills" and "behavior modification"
Use Stanton's 7 tools.
Values
Motivation
Rewards
Resources
Support
Maturity
Cause, Drugies don't have values
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Source: http://www.peele.net/lib/diseasing3.html (http://www.peele.net/lib/diseasing3.html)
Alcoholism is only a progressive disease in the religion of the 12 steppers.
i honestly don't know where you people get your information from, (well, "orange")and why some of you seem to think all your problems can be blamed on a.a.
Here is what A.A. says bout alchoholism
"while there is no formal "A.A. definition" of alcholoism most of us agree that for us it could be described as a physcical obsession coupled with a mental obsession. We mean that we had a distinct physical desire to consume alchohol beyond our capacity to control it, and in defiance of all rules of common sense. We nnot only had an abnomral craving for alchohol, but we frequently yei;ed to it at the worst possible times."
Reading over A.A. literature, which strikes me as very reasonable and cautious, then reading over this forum, I see semantical haggling and one sided, out of context quotes with the intent of creating a boogie man. I suspect some vocal anti-A.A.ers have their own agendas, from making survivors look "dumb or "unreliable" to derailing threads, or are non-survivors who just people who don't like A.A. and like spreading the gospel, so to speak, or as they put it "educating people"...
Some people here think addicion is nothing but a choice.
A.A. and the AMA and, let's call it, "modern science" thinks addiction is an illness. It's psychological, yes, but also pysiological as in physical, like cancer. Modern science has found that, yes, as drug addicts use more and more drugs their addiction gets "worse." It "Progresses," so to speak.
viewtopic.php?f=49&t=7583 (http://fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=7583)
"We now know in great detail the brain mechanisms through which drugs acutely modify mood, memory, perception, and emotional states. Using drugs repeatedly over time changes brain structure and function in fundamental and long-lasting ways that can persist long after the individual stops using them. Addiction comes about through an array of neuro-adaptive changes and the lying down and strengthening of new memory connections in various circuits in the brain."
That doesn't mean its a progressive disease with the same metabolic processes as "cancer," or that if you have marajuana, you will "progress" to heroin, that's folk-lore thats grown around the science, but it is "progressive."
I hope we can stop the semi-"obsessive" AA focus some day. Its a red herring.
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Michael was a good student, maintaining a 3.5 grade point average at Lincoln-Sudbury Regional High School until he got into drugs. Reuben's troubles with drugs began in the middle of his senior year with drinking, then marijuana and ultimately progressing to intravenous heroin, his father said. He left school before graduation and received his GED, said his father. His drug addiction progressed to intravenous heroin.
How many times are they going to repeat the phrase "progressed to intravenous heroin"? Bad writing, the editor should of caught that.
What they are trying to say is the child was using maybe alcohol, pot….then “progressed” to more potent drugs. Children/ adults rarely start out shooting up heroin as their first substance. They usually build up to it over time moving up the chain from lesser potent substances. Addiction is a progressive disease.
YES, but you can't "progress" from alchohol to another drug. It doesn't make sense that one drug would create another craving for another with completley different chemical make-up, right? You also cannot be addicted, chemically, to pot.
There has been study after study on this.
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Source: http://www.peele.net/lib/diseasing3.html (http://www.peele.net/lib/diseasing3.html)
Alcoholism is only a progressive disease in the religion of the 12 steppers.
i honestly don't know where you people get your information from, (well, "orange")and why some of you seem to think all your problems can be blamed on a.a.
First of all. I don't have any sort of problem, though it's typical for a stepper to imply anybody criticizing their organization to have a "problem", be "in denial" or my personal favorite, a "dry drunk" (an oxymoron if I've ever heard one). I haven't had a drink since new years champagne with my parents. I could certainly drink if I wanted to. I just don't like it very much. Alcohol is quite available in this household and drinking is not frowned upon. I grew up in Europe where moderation is taught early and well. I don't smoke pot either (though I have in the past and certainly don't frown on the practice... i view it similarly to alcohol). Secondly, the source cited by that guest is Stanton Peele, not Agent Orange.
He writes in the above link about the misconception of progression:
Alcoholic Progression — A Drinking Problem Can Only Get Worse
The nineteenth-century view of alcoholic progression — that occasional drinkers become regular drinkers become alcoholics — is alive and well in the modern alcoholism movement. Now the idea is that anyone who ever has any problems with their drinking must either seek treatment or progress to inevitable, life-threatening alcoholism. "The ultimate consequences for a drinking alcoholic," Dr. G. Douglas Talbott says, "are these three: he or she will end up in jail, in a hospital, or in a graveyard."34
Note that that quote more or less sums up AA teaching. AA teaches:
We are convinced to a man that alcoholics of our type are in the grip of a progressive illness. Over any considerable period we get worse, never better.
The Big Book, William G. Wilson, Chapter 3, More About Alcoholism, page 30.
Once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic.
The Big Book, William G. Wilson, Chapter 3, More About Alcoholism, page 33.
Unless each A.A. member follows to the best of his ability our suggested Twelve Steps to recovery, he almost certainly signs his own death warrant.
Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, William G. Wilson, page 174.
It helped me a lot to become convinced that alcoholism was a disease, not a moral issue; that I had been drinking as a result of a compulsion, even though I had not been aware of the compulsion at the time; and that sobriety was not a matter of will power.
The Big Book, 3rd Edition, page 448.
And so on and so forth.
Peele continues:
Of course, when you talk to alcoholics, you discover that they were early problem drinkers before they progressed to alcoholism. But the fact is, the large majority of problem drinkers outgrow their drinking problems, according to the national surveys conducted by Don Cahalan and his associates. Men often go through problem drinking periods, depending on their stage in the life cycle and the people they associate with, only to emerge from these when their life circumstances change. Incidentally, the large majority of these untreated former problem drinkers do not choose to abstain but continue drinking while diminishing or eliminating their problems. The largest group of problem drinkers is young men, but young drinkers show the highest rate of natural remission as they age.35
Several surveys conducted by Kaye Fillmore, of the Institute for Health and Aging (University of California, San Francisco), indicate that drinking problems that appear in college and late adolescence — problems up to and including blackout — rarely persist through middle age.36 Exactly similar data pertain to youthful drug abuse, and all research shows the tendency to use, to use regularly, and to be addicted to drugs drops off after adolescence and early adulthood.37 Apparently, as people mature they find they can achieve more meaningful rewards than those offered by drugs and overdrinking. These rewards are generally the conventional ones of family life and accomplishment at work that dominate adult life for most people, even most of those who had a drinking or drug problem earlier on.
Nor are children of alcoholics destined to progress to alcoholism when they drink. A large, long-term study of Tecumseh, Michigan, residents conducted by epidemiologists at the University of Michigan found that children of heavy-drinking parents most frequently choose to drink moderately themselves. Although alcoholics have more alcoholic offspring than average, the researchers noted, "alcoholic parental drinking only weakly invites imitation."38 It seems that people are quite capable of learning from observing a parent's alcoholism to avoid such problems themselves. In doing so, the researchers found, children are helped when the heavy drinker is the parent of the opposite sex. In addition, there was less imitation in this study of a heavy-drinking parent when the children as adults recalled the parent as having drinking problems.39 Finally, several studies of children of alcoholics have shown that, even after they themselves develop a drinking problem, they do better in treatment aimed at moderating drinking rather than at abstinence than do other problem drinkers.40
Although by far the largest percentage of those who outgrow a drinking or drug problem without treatment are younger, natural recovery in alcoholism and addiction is not limited to the young or to those who fall short of developing severe alcoholism.41 Those who have progressed to definite alcohol dependence also regularly escape from alcoholism on their own; indeed, natural remission for alcoholics may be more typical than not. In the words of British physician Milton Gross, who has focused on the biological aspects of alcohol dependence:
The foundation is set for the progression of the alcohol dependence syndrome by virtue of its biologically intensifying itself. One would think that, once caught up in the process, the individual could not be extricated. However, and for reasons poorly understood, the reality is otherwise. Many, perhaps most, do free themselves.42
A number of studies have now documented that such self-cure among alcoholics is common. These untreated but recovered alcoholics constitute, according to researcher Barry Tuchfeld, a "silent majority."43 Based on his research in Australia, psychiatrist Les Drew has described alcoholism as a "self-limiting" disease, one that creates pressures for its own cure even in the absence of outside interventions."44 In the words of Harold Mulford, "Contrary to the traditional clinical view of the alcoholism disease process, progress in the alcoholic process is neither inevitable nor irreversible. Eventually, the balance of natural forces shifts to decelerate progress in the alcoholic process and to accelerate the rehabilitation process."45
Peele's sources are cited in the original linked above.
I hope we can stop the semi-"obsessive" AA focus some day. Its a red herring.
You have a certain point there. I don't think the debate should end, but I do think there is an appropriate place for it, this thread:
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=26586 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=26586)
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What program were you in, guest? I'm guessing it was a WWASP program that dind't emphaze stepper dogma like most programs out there (Straight based, CEDU based, etc...)
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Source: http://www.peele.net/lib/diseasing3.html (http://www.peele.net/lib/diseasing3.html)
Alcoholism is only a progressive disease in the religion of the 12 steppers.
i honestly don't know where you people get your information from, (well, "orange")and why some of you seem to think all your problems can be blamed on a.a.
First of all. I don't have any sort of problem. I haven't had a drink since new years champagne with my parents. I could certainly drink if I wanted to. I just don't like it very much. Alcohol is quite available in this household and drinking is not frowned upon. I grew up in Europe where moderation is taught early and well. I don't smoke pot either (though I have in the past and certainly don't frown on the practice... i view it similarly to alcohol). Secondly, the source cited by that guest is Stanton Peele, not Agent Orange.
I'm not saying "your problems" in that you have alcoholism. I am saying "your problems" are zero tolerance laws, the drug war, "sober house," , and the "progressive disease" issue, the last is an issue you will need to take up with medical science, not A.A.
He writes in the above link about the misconception of progression:
Alcoholic Progression — A Drinking Problem Can Only Get Worse
The nineteenth-century view of alcoholic progression — that occasional drinkers become regular drinkers become alcoholics — is alive and well in the modern alcoholism movement. Now the idea is that anyone who ever has any problems with their drinking must either seek treatment or progress to inevitable, life-threatening alcoholism. "The ultimate consequences for a drinking alcoholic," Dr. G. Douglas Talbott says, "are these three: he or she will end up in jail, in a hospital, or in a graveyard."34
Note that that quote more or less sums up AA teaching. AA teaches:
We are convinced to a man that alcoholics of our type are in the grip of a progressive illness. Over any considerable period we get worse, never better.
The Big Book, William G. Wilson, Chapter 3, More About Alcoholism, page 30.
I don't get the feeling that BW means that alcoholism get worse like cancer gets worse, I think he means that alcoholics who continue their pattern of alcoholic drinking will get worse.
I think that’s kinda on the money, and backed up by science..
Once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic.
Yes, but if you look at the article someone posted, that’s kinda true.
Brain structure changes with alcoholic levels of drinking, and it stays changed long after drinking. In a sense, someone who once has once been an alcoholic will always have certain tendencies brought on by habituation and physiology, and therefore always will "be an alcoholic." He is expressing a scientific truth in laymen’s language.
Those tendencies won't exist in perpetuity for 100% of all people, and certainly if you go 30 years post-alcohol leading a full, non alcohol dependant life they may not be an issue, and some people regenerate brain pathways faster than others, and certain people will be able to resist urges almost immediately after they stop being problem drinkers, but the truth ismost people will retain altered physical brain pathways, instincts, understanding and tendencies for most of their lives.
I don’t understand why this is hard for you to believe. The same thing happens to young adults raised in programs. For the most part they are altered, mentally, long after they leave programs.
It helped me a lot to become convinced that alcoholism was a disease, not a moral issue; that I had been drinking as a result of a compulsion, even though I had not been aware of the compulsion at the time; and that sobriety was not a matter of will power.
jesus This is BAD thing to you? You WANT alcoholism to be a "moral issue"? You want a 16th century understanding of alcoholism= it’s the person's fault, the person is a loser without will power.
Sorry, I think that’s a shitty goal…
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i was in a # of programs. The only program i really "care" about is CEDU because "it" (the staff and peer staff) murdered a little kid that i love. So i just get offended when it's equated with some touchy-feely group. I notice the similar terminology though "make ammends" "newcomer" so i understand instinctual disttaste for it..but when you've actually been there or research it..there is really NO comparison. I am also posting on this cause i have extra time again this week.
Happy MLK day!!!
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JSYK, Schafer also doesn’t believe thought reform or brainwashing exists, nor any mental illness.
He may have some connection to the scientologists
http://209.85.129.132/custom?q=cache:aZ ... =clnk&cd=1 (http://209.85.129.132/custom?q=cache:aZPr7AVlts4J:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Szasz+WIKI+Jeffrey+Schaler+scientologist&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1)
“Today, it is as fashionable to criticize Scientologists and Scientology as it was to criticize Jews and Judaism in 1930s and 1940s Germany. Scientology is recognized by our federal government as a religion and demands the same respect and tolerance we show any other religion. Instead of asking why Scientology endorses Thomas Szasz’s ideas, we should be asking why other religions do not.”
Shame and stigma shame is the way to stop symptoms of what is called mental illness and drug addictions, he says:
“Supporters of parity(forcing insurance to cover mental disability as well as physical_ celebrate the new law as signaling the end of "stigma," but they fail to consider that stigmatization is a marvelous negative reinforcer for undesired behavior, some of which is called "mental illness."
http://209.85.129.132/custom?q=cache:mS ... =clnk&cd=1 (http://209.85.129.132/custom?q=cache:mS7tTRTglHMJ:www.naturalism.org/Physicalism.htm+Jeffrey+Schaler%5B8%5D+argue+against+parity+for&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1)
Yay shame!
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JSYK, Schafer also doesn’t believe thought reform or brainwashing exists, nor any mental illness.
Yup. I know that (though that is an oversimplification of his views). But his area of expertise is addiction treatment, not cults or brainwashing. It's possible to be right on one thing and wrong on another at the same time. I am also not sure if your claim that he doesn't believe brainwashing / thought reform exists is accurate. I know his stance on mental illness, but I'd like to see some evidence for his stance on brainwashing.
He may have some connection to the scientologists
http://209.85.129.132/custom?q=cache:aZ ... =clnk&cd=1 (http://209.85.129.132/custom?q=cache:aZPr7AVlts4J:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Szasz+WIKI+Jeffrey+Schaler+scientologist&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1)
“Today, it is as fashionable to criticize Scientologists and Scientology as it was to criticize Jews and Judaism in 1930s and 1940s Germany. Scientology is recognized by our federal government as a religion and demands the same respect and tolerance we show any other religion. Instead of asking why Scientology endorses Thomas Szasz’s ideas, we should be asking why other religions do not.”
I know his stance on that, yes. But he's neither a scientologist or a member of CCHR (though he has recieved one of their awards). Techincally, a lot of his views and opinions are quite contrary to what Scientologists believe. Even if he was a scientologist, his views on addiction would still be valid if supported by science. What you're doing is ad hominem and guilt by association.
Shame and stigma shame is the way to stop symptoms of what is called mental illness and drug addictions, he says:
“Supporters of parity(forcing insurance to cover mental disability as well as physical_ celebrate the new law as signaling the end of "stigma," but they fail to consider that stigmatization is a marvelous negative reinforcer for undesired behavior, some of which is called "mental illness."
http://209.85.129.132/custom?q=cache:mS ... =clnk&cd=1 (http://209.85.129.132/custom?q=cache:mS7tTRTglHMJ:www.naturalism.org/Physicalism.htm+Jeffrey+Schaler%5B8%5D+argue+against+parity+for&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1)
Yay shame!
And to a certain extent he has a point. Take for instance, a drunk driver who kills somebody. Now more than ever people are likely to say "oh poor you.. you have a disease". And so the drunk driver, instead of learning that he murdered somebody, learns that it was just his disease (it's not my fault. The devil drink made me do it! I'm an alkie-holic, and that's a disease). My opinion is that if somebody, through reckess driving (what substance was in the system should matter) kills somebody, they should be throw in jail for life. Problem solved. I have absolutely zero compassion towards people who recklessly kill others and then blame it on some fictitious disease. It's a cop out.
While real diseases exist, Alcoholism ain't one
smoking is a behavior. Lung cancer is a disease
alcohol use is a behavior. cirrhosis of the liver is a disease.
heroin use is a behavior. aids is a disease.
eating is a behavior. clogged arteries is a disease.
etc. etc. etc.
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While real diseases exist, Alcoholism ain't one
smoking is a behavior. Lung cancer is a disease
alcohol use is a behavior. cirrhosis of the liver is a disease.
heroin use is a behavior. aids is a disease.
eating is a behavior. clogged arteries is a disease.
etc. etc. etc.
I can agree with this but I think that the truth lies somewhere in the middle of the issue of Behavior vs Disease.
I think we all have tendencies and personality flaws, and not everyone is so unique in these factors, so we tend to analyze the similarities and call them diseases or more so disorders. I personally agree that mental disorders exist and an addictive personality is very similar both in brain chemistry and behavioral tendencies. However the presence of a pre-existing chemical imbalance is usually the cause for a person to feel "addicted" to any particular substance and that is because they are self medicating. In these cases I think the "addiction" is simply a symptom of the real disorders they are struggling with and cannot and will not be cured or maintained by AA or any social, religious, or behavior modification program. The symptom itself is not a disorder and certainly not a disease, however considering the great deal of the population of addicts who are struggling with other different disorders it makes sense that they would assume they are all showing symptoms of the same disorder.
Then there is the issue of Cravings vs Willpower, this is often when people who are not struggling with pre-existing disorders can usually attain their lack of willpower to the "disease" of addiction. Usually this is when a habit is formed for a drug and its corresponding lifestyle and the subject has tried many drugs but found a preference for one that they use for any number of years and this creates a tolerance which leads them to abuse the drug. There are many drugs that are proven to cause a physical addiction, these are mostly those that cause enough problems in a persons life that they would feel the need (or be forced) to go to AA, these drugs also cause withdrawls and cravings after the drug has left their body and therefore it is easy for these people to subscribe to the "disease" of addiction. Even if addiction was an actual disorder why is it that addiction is the only one that you dont have to go to a doctor to be diagnosed? Instead you walk into a meeting of a bunch of uneducated ex-drug users and they are the ones who convince you that you have a disease. That doesnt really make sense to me. Furthermore why are there no legal drug treatments for addiction (as in the "disease" of addiction, not lets say the physical addiction to a specific drug) and why is personal therapy not usually the recommended treatment of addiction? Why is it only this very confrontational, war story sharing, guilt laden program the ONLY accepted solution for this so-called wide spread disease? and why is it that christian churches are usually the places these meetings are held?
I have to agree that convincing someone that they are powerless in a situation that ultimately requires a considerable amount of willpower to be quite a ridiculous concept. Futhermore, hiding under the pretense that not only do the drugs have the power and you must simply avoid them but also that you have to put every bit of hope into a "higher power" in order to do so really only reminds me of a technique that a cult would use to make sure the victim stayed dependent on them. I think that is exactly what sets these people up to fail, because as soon as they get busy and stop going to meetings its always in the back of their minds that they will fail, (ie: go back to the drugs) without the program. So they do, under the guise that they really cant help themselves. I think this whole system is far more psychologically detrimental than it is helpful in anyway, I think it has the same ability to brainwash its members as the program does, and thats why its no surprise that the program often uses the AA system as a base when creating the program. It works only to keep people off drugs while they are committed to isolating themselves and depending on the program to protect them from the outside world however its completely lacking in teaching its subjects how to really go about supporting their sobriety on their own, that they have the willpower to overcome addiction and that their life and family and success should be what keeps them from using again, not the program.
Ive gone on enough, just felt I might share my 2 cents.
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Ad hominem or not, this jeffrey person is a complete idiot. He doesn't even beleive that schizophrenia "exists," even in people who are clearly delusional. And he seems to be connected to Scientology is some really intense way.
"Why would you put somebody like him in the hands of psychiatry, that admits it doesn't know how to actually solve the problems, and the only solution is to drug the person?" asks Jan Eastgate, who investigates psychiatric abuse for the Church of Scientology and aligns herself with other critics of institutional psychiatry, like Professor Jeffrey Schaler of American University, who say schizophrenia shouldn’t even be called a disease.
“There is no disease that Jeremy had called schizophrenia. This is an attempt by psychiatrists and other mental health professionals to explain why he did what he did,” says Schaler."
Asked if he believes that drugs can treat mental illness, Schaler says, "Since there’s not such thing as mental illness, there’s no such thing as a medicine for mental illness. Now, can certain drugs change the way a person feels? Of course. But does that mean the person needed that drug?"
I'm gonna say, since Jeremy was expereincing hallucinations, then, yeah. He needed that drug.
http://www.rickross.com/reference/scien ... try27.html (http://www.rickross.com/reference/scientology/psychiatry/psychiatry27.html)
Also , he denigratingly accuses people of simply "appealing to authority." But guess what he considers "appealing to authority"? Answer: citing scientific research!
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Just because the Scientologists tend to like his view on that one issue doesn't mean Schaler is a Scientologist. Do I agree with Schaler that mental illness does not exist at all? Of course not. But I do agree with him that addiction is not a disease and there is a tendency of society to over-diagnose and over-label people as "mentally ill" that aren't in reality.
Ever read about the Rosenhan experiment?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosenhan_experiment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosenhan_experiment)
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ok. I know I sound like an aa booster, but don’t believe everything you hear on this website about them.
For one thing, A.A is NOT confrontational. Confrontation falls under the classification “crosstalk” which is banned by A.A.(as far as they can ban things)
Alcoholics Anonymous cross talk refers to a specific kind of behavior that is strongly discouraged among Alcoholics Anonymous. More precisely, "cross talk" during an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting usually means telling another member what to think or how to act, speaking directly to another person rather than to the group, questioning or interrupting the person who is currently sharing and speaking, or giving direct advice to others who have already shared.
Alcoholics Anonymous, Cross Talk, and Meetings
Avoidance of cross talk is considered a safety feature of the meetings. Unlike group therapy, Alcoholics Anonymous members share their own experience, strength, and hope with one another, rather than telling others what to do or what they should think.
In the Alcoholics Anonymous meetings, members refrain from cross talk. The idea is for members to speak only about their own feelings and experiences and accept without comment what others say because whatever they say is true for them.
Alcoholics Anonymous members work toward taking responsibility in their own lives, rather than giving advice to others.
The following represents examples of what Alcoholics Anonymous calls "cross talk":
• dominating
• Unsolicited feedback
• debating
• advice-giving
• criticizing
• "you" and "we" statements
• interrogating
• controlling
• self avoidance
• answering
• talking directly to others
Alcoholics Anonymous cross talk during AA meetings is frowned upon Alcoholics Anonymous for a reason: AA members believe that they should take responsibility for their own behaviors, beliefs, and actions instead of giving advice to others.
http://209.85.129.132/custom?q=cache:_H ... =clnk&cd=2 (http://209.85.129.132/custom?q=cache:_Hca44iDokAJ:www.all-about-alcoholism.com/Alcoholics_Anonymous_-_Cross_Talk.html+crosstalk+alcoholics+anonymous&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2)
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ok. I know I sound like an aa booster
Ya do. So you were in CEDU which was light on the AA dogma. Ok deal. I was in Benchmark which was CEDU/Synanon blended with AA blended with LGATs blended with something a bit worse than WWASP's exit plan. So yeah. You'd be right if you were to say that I have a personal resentment or knee-jerk reaction against anything AA, but I would like to think that i'd feel the same way if the particular shitpit I was in was a little less heavy on the stepper dogma.
That being said, i'd be willing to wager that your family members are steppers who have pressured you to attend meetings. You did and got sucked in... er... admitted your problem you didn't actually... er... took the first step. Amirite?
For one thing, A.A is NOT confrontational. Confrontation falls under the classification “crosstalk” which is banned by A.A.(as far as they can ban things)
And that's one of the most widely ignored (and selectively applied) rules in all of AA. Sure during meetings in most places that is respected, but not during all forms of meetings and certainly not while outside meetings. A sponsor is more than free to judge you for your actions, words, and even acquaintances ("that person/place/thing is bad for your sobriety", etc...). All "no cross talk" ensures is that the cross-talk will happen at some other point in time (after the meeting, etc)... that is considering your local chapter doesn't completely ignore the rule. There are other ways to confront than in a group setting. "quit your stinking thinking" and so on and so forth are common.
I would agree that there are some AA meetings that are far from cult-like, but the ones I've experienced... not so much. Your result may vary. Now let me quote from the holy website of Peele:
When an individual comes to AA, he/she knows some things are required for fundamental membership. Chief of these is to declare yourself an alcoholic. It may be friendly (although I have observed great hostility towards individuals who refused to declare themselves this way) but there is no backing out, and many people (especially the DWIs who quit as soon as they can) experience great anxiety around it. When people are compelled to take on a self-identification with which they disagree or about which they are unsure, when great group pressure is placed on this identification, what do you call it? Again, these tales are described in detail and at length in David Rudy's Becoming Alcoholic and Ken Ragge's More Revealed. (Room also recommended that I read Charles Bufe's book, Alcoholics Anonymous: Cult or Cure, which decided AA is not a cult. I replied: I know Bufe's book and I believe I am writing a preface to his new edition. Not being a cult -- for example not having a charismatic [living] leader or using physical coercion -- takes one out of one category, like Nazism, but leaves much room for mind control and psychological coercion.)
I can only marvel at the lack of psychological insight Robin's comments reveal -- that AA is not coercive because the rule is "no cross-talk."
One experience I have which may be unique for a "social-behaviorist" is the time I spent lecturing to AA grads going through counseling programs and attending conferences for counselors. (I did this at the UC Berkeley alcoholism counseling certificate granting program when Room was at Berkeley.) These experiences were surreal, particularly at a University, as people reviled me for even suggesting any alternative approaches to AA. Robin, you ought to try it some time. Moreover, did the regular Berkeley faculty have any obligation, do you think, to pay attention to official support UC gave to people emerging from programs like these endorsing know-nothingness?
In these programs, people showed what was either a totalitarian mind set/or a hyper psychological sensitivity to any challenge to their philosophy of sobriety for which the only previous equivalents in my experience occurred in clinical settings. At one "meeting," a woman asked me if she could could join my "group." Another walked out, saying she would have to kill me if she stayed.
Meanwhile, the horrible blood letting around controlled drinking, culminating in the Sobells' persecution, is a chapter yet to be fully plumbed in America. Of course, what is amazing vis-a-vis Room's Olympiad detachment is that Pendery et al. sharpened their teeth on the Alcohol Research Group and Cahalan and Room before turning to the Sobells.
I describe these experiences in: Denial - of Reality and of Freedom - in Addiction Research and Treatment
Of course, this has colossal policy implications, and is why American treatment remains stalled in AA and 12 steps. But it is also a commentary on the AA experience, the kind of thing for which the sociological study of brainwashing was my best academic preparation.
Kerry Heffner clarified his position:
Stanton: There may be less of a difference between us than it appears. I'm NOT suggesting that AA is this harmless little social organization where there is open expression and rational thinking -- I haven't come across one of those since the commune and--even there--there were strong pressures to conform. You characterize AA as "a mnd bending experience along the lines of a cult....with major group directed influences on changing the individual's mind set and self-conception."
As if it could be anything else! I'd argue that growing up (in a family, community, society, and culture) is an experience with major group-directed influences on changing individual mind sets and identities. I think there are much better--and more productive--criticisms of AA than that it is "cult-like." The cult argument serves to distance and pathologize and I think there are more useful conversations to be had about AA.
You are free to quote me on anything I say in public. My real concern is that the context of the argument doesn't get lost or distorted. I'd hate to be known in public as being 100%, gung-ho supportive of AA--I'm not. AA serves some useful functions for some people some of the time. For the majority of problem drinkers, it is inappropriate. And for a small minority it may be harmful. (I suppose this is where we'd disagree the most--on the harmfulness of the program.)
source: http://www.peele.net/debate/cultlite.html (http://www.peele.net/debate/cultlite.html)
The title of the article is "Alcoholics Anonymous: Cult Lite" .. heh ... heh... heheh...
Also of interest:
Denial — of Reality and of Freedom — in Addiction Research and Treatment:
http://www.peele.net/lib/denial.html (http://www.peele.net/lib/denial.html)
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He is listed on the victims page (http://http://wiki.fornits.com/index.php?title=Victims) as a survivor from Academy of Swift River (http://http://wiki.fornits.com/index.php?title=Academy_at_Swift_River).
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He is listed on the victims page (http://http://wiki.fornits.com/index.php?title=Victims) as a survivor from Academy of Swift River (http://http://wiki.fornits.com/index.php?title=Academy_at_Swift_River).
please get the kid from elan who was beaten to death during "teenagers coerced into or forced into beating other teenagers therapy" in 1994 or 5, mid 90s.
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Wow. This goes deep
I am also not sure if your claim that he doesn't believe brainwashing / thought reform exists is accurate.
Yes, Schaler claims brainwashing doesn’t exist. This is from a “scholarly article” he wrote, which is a long-winded defense of Scientology.
Behavior is a choice Contrary to conventional wisdom regarding cults, people are not put under a spell or held in some kind of hypnotic trance, where they do things they ordinarily wouldn’t do, or act in ways they do not want to act.... On a psychological level, no one can make another person feel guilty or feel any particular way in order to do or not do something, independent of their choosing.
i.e. Scientolgy doesn’t brainwash anyone
http://www.schaler.net/cults.pdf (http://www.schaler.net/cults.pdf)
But, he claims “cults” do exist. He, like Buffe and Peele, has a personal definition of cult. What qualifies as a cult? Answer: Psychiatry.
what do we know about the cult of psychiatry?
The cult of psychiatry isn’t about science or medicine it’s about power
Psychiatry is a cult – its members severely criticize and ostracize others in the “mental health profession” who say that mental illness is a myth.
http://video.aol.com/video-detail/jeffr ... 4157917779 (http://video.aol.com/video-detail/jeffrey-schaler/4157917779)
http://www.schaler.net/cults.pdf (http://www.schaler.net/cults.pdf)
He’s also clearly a Scientologist Puppet. He’s on the CCHR. He’s their spokesman.
“PROFESSOR JEFFREY SCHALER, PSYCHOLOGIST, CCHR SPOKESMAN: I`m honored to speak to you today at this inauguration of the Psychiatry and Industry of Death Museum.”
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/ ... bt.01.html (http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0512/20/sbt.01.html)
He claims mental illness can be physical illness, and vitamins and such will help it—in accordance with Scientology doctrine. He mixes valid ideas with points which manipulatively serve Scientology’s double agenda. According to him, psychiatric abuses shouldn’t be stopped, psychiatry should be stopped, which is why people should remain Scientologists.
Accepting his CCHR award:
Alone on a desert island you can develop cancer, but you can’t develop mental illness
(yes you can)
psychiatrists are the Inquisitors of today
My father escaped Nazi Germany. Dad, I asked, how did people let the nazi’s get away with it?” He answered, “Because we never took them seriously.” Well I’m telling you to take Psychiatrists seriously. We are building a resistance to the psychiatric Gestapo! That is why we are here tonight and that is why we will be together tomorrow! (paraphrased) (roaring applause from the Scientologists]
http://video.aol.com/video-detail/jeffr ... 4157917779 (http://video.aol.com/video-detail/jeffrey-schaler/4157917779)
He semi-literately wrote a long-winded defense of Scientology, that there’s no such thing as brainwashing, or “cults” (medical definition)
http://www.schaler.net/cults.pdf (http://www.schaler.net/cults.pdf)
Here are some of this thoughts on Scientology
No one is coerced into joining the Church of Scientology.
People claim they were pressured into staying in Scientology, bilked out of thousands of dollars if not life savings, threatened in all kinds of ways if they go against the group ideologies, are multitudinous. But evidence that the Church of Scientology committed crimes is sorely lacking.
A search on the Internet for opinions regarding the Church of Scientology brings thousands of hits. The vituperative attacks on Scientology, a group recognized as a religion by the Department of the Treasury, must be seen to be believed. People who claim [bad things] may bring civil litigation against the Church of Scientology. There may, of course, have been crimes that were committed, for which people were prosecuted; and crimes for which members of the Church of Scientology were not prosecuted, as is true with any religion or cult.
After years of fighting with the Department of the Treasury, the federal government recognized the Church of Scientology as a religion and granted it religious status. When such (attacks) are launched towards Jews we call it anti-Semitism. When criticism is leveled towards Scientology it is consideredgood and the right thing to do.
those critical of Scientology believe that people who choose to join the Church were coerced into doing so, as if they could exhibit involuntary behavior.The confusion regarding coercion in cults is undoubtedly because much of what people call coercion is in fact persuasion. No one is coerced into joiningthe Church of Scientology.
I didn’t expect this person to be a Scio Puppet..the levels of their con is remarkable .
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Yes, this should never be forgotten. Aspen killed this kid. And his dad was Aspen's accomplice.
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Yes, this should never be forgotten. Aspen killed this kid. And his dad was Aspen's accomplice.
Ha,Ha,Ha this is great. Now we have the Nazis and the church of scientology involved. This is going to be a huge case when it finally breaks...trial of the century!!!
so far:
The parents of this kid were "Nazi Scientologists Edcon Program Parents with a cult fetish"
Lets keep it going!!
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Personally, Who, I don't see what's funny about a dead kid. Laughing at this family's completely avoidable tragedy is disgusting.
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Personally, Who, I don't see what's funny about a dead kid. Laughing at this family's completely avoidable tragedy is disgusting.
Sadly, this is what many ASR parents do. They laugh at the deaths of other people's kids.
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Personally, Who, I don't see what's funny about a dead kid. Laughing at this family's completely avoidable tragedy is disgusting.
Sadly, this is what many ASR parents do. They laugh at the deaths of other people's kids.
I think it is more of a chuckle..... Ha,Ha,Ha is a belly laugh, He,he,he is a laugh and Hmmmm is an insubordinate chuckle.
Now back on topic:
So out of 1,000 or so at-risk kids which graduated from ASR only 3 have died?
Thats a 99.7 % success rate. Whoever mentioned high correletion was right. I never knew they were that good. I always believed they experienced a lttle better than average but that is really good.
Lets take a look at HLA's success rate. Anyone have a tally of kids who died post program?
Maybe we could rate schools on how successful they are via post graduates... ASR would be at or near the top...SUWS and HLA would be close also. My local highschool would be very low.. seems every month we hear about some teen dieing from an overdose or car crash DUI.
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Please start another thread that has something, anything to do with your topic. This thread is about a dead kid, not TheWho.
I will report this to the moderator for flooding if you insist on repetitive posts. If you start a thread for your purpose, that's fine, otherwise what you keep flooding here will have to be deleted and your effort will be even more wasted.
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I will report this to the moderator
:D :roflmao: :beat:
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He is listed on the victims page (http://http://wiki.fornits.com/index.php?title=Victims) as a survivor from Academy of Swift River (http://http://wiki.fornits.com/index.php?title=Academy_at_Swift_River).
Thank you....
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That brings the success rate from a 99.8% to 99.7 % success rate for ASR. Does fornits have a similar stat for HLA
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He is listed on the victims page (http://http://wiki.fornits.com/index.php?title=Victims) as a survivor from Academy of Swift River (http://http://wiki.fornits.com/index.php?title=Academy_at_Swift_River).
Thank you....
Seems like about 65% chance that you could survive the place and get to age 25. Lots of deaths of ASR kids lately. And that's just the ones who happen to post obits saying they were at ASR. Probably dozens more we're missing.
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Wait Peter, are you saying that ASR gauges their success on whether or not the kid gets out of their program alive? What kind of fucked up programs are you refering to?
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Robert Bruce,
You are on bans from speaking on this website. Go play with your "who."
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Ah who can forget bans.
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Ah who can forget bans.
Who can forget when you raped little boys who were on bans?
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I think you have me confused with another poster here who is a card carrying member of NAMBLA.
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Ah who can forget bans.
Who can forget when you raped little boys who were on bans?
Awww...Looks liek TheWho has finally caved in to his basest urges. Making light of rape is his favorite pastime.
This is also an indication that he's having a bit of a tantrum from being fully owned again by a program kid. :waaaa: :waaaa: :waaaa: "Link you posts, Robert! You rape kids, Robert!" STFU, Who, nobody wants to hear your crying. Over 16,000 posts of the same nonsense and you're still hammering at it. Don't you see why you have no friends, no kids and no life yet?
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Ah who can forget bans.
Who can forget when you raped little boys who were on bans?
Awww...Looks liek TheWho has finally caved in to his basest urges. Making light of rape is his favorite pastime.
This is also an indication that he's having a bit of a tantrum from being fully owned again by a program kid. :waaaa: :waaaa: :waaaa: "Link you posts, Robert! You rape kids, Robert!" STFU, Who, nobody wants to hear your crying. Over 16,000 posts of the same nonsense and you're still hammering at it. Don't you see why you have no friends, no kids and no life yet?
Good question, but I think you know the answer already...
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Ah who can forget bans.
Who can forget when you raped little boys who were on bans?
Awww...Looks liek TheWho has finally caved in to his basest urges. Making light of rape is his favorite pastime.
This is also an indication that he's having a bit of a tantrum from being fully owned again by a program kid. :waaaa: :waaaa: :waaaa: "Link you posts, Robert! You rape kids, Robert!" STFU, Who, nobody wants to hear your crying. Over 16,000 posts of the same nonsense and you're still hammering at it. Don't you see why you have no friends, no kids and no life yet?
Know what's wrong with fornits? It's not whooter. It's people like you, the losers who obsess over whooter... that is what has ruined fornits. What sane persons refers to themselves as a program kid anyways, you are probably 45 years old.
Don't you see why you have no friends, no kids and no life yet?
You must be projecting, becase if you have friends, kids or a life you would not give a crap about what whooter is posting on fornits. You know how you view whooter? That's how the rest of fornits sees you.
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^^Whooter^^ FYI
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^^Whooter^^ FYI