Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Anonymous on August 03, 2003, 01:52:00 PM
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Lichfield: Does he even have a high school diploma yet?
http://www.denver-rmn.com/desperate/sit ... rate.shtml (http://www.denver-rmn.com/desperate/site-desperate/mpg6-desperate.shtml)
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answer: looks like what he is. a digusting, fat, greedy pig.
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They all look very well fed. I must say that Robert is better looking than Narvin. Perhaps he is like Dorian Gray and has some portrait growing evil-looking in a locked closet. Even if he tithes 10% of his take from WWASP to the Morman Church, he must know he is evil.
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janet could you e-mail me private? not regarding this post, something else, MORSEGLASS@AOL.COM
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the FAT evil empire. they better eat now, not sure what the prison food will be like.
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is it true he doesnt have a high school diploma? he must have attended a wwasps accredited (or non) school.
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Browning as in Browning Academy. Makes you wonder doesnt it? Imagine owning a school and never really finsihed one. Or did he?
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a brother of a child molester (in jail)
a brother of a child abuser (in costa rico, awaiting trial)
the founder of an abusive organization
king kay's daddy
pepper spray jay's grand pa
need some help here folks; does anyone have the low down on when, why & where robert lichfield was denied privileges to visit his own school in provo?
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I heard he was not allowed at Cross Creek not Provo, for sexual misconduct back in the early '90's. I bet Huron will find out about it.
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so what if Lichfield and his friends are fat and ugly? They cannot help if they are disgusting. Its what is inside that counts and they are fat there too but they care. they really care because they say they care and it only costs about 30 k a year for lichfield to care.
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anon so right.......pocket book, pocket book, & more pocket book!!!
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I've heard that he looks like the late actor John Candy. The Times interviewed him and he refused to be photographed by them because he didn't want one of the crazy, drugged out kids that have been abused in one of his programs to hunt him down. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Being a street cop, witnessing the tragedy firsthand, I've become
convinced that drug prohibition -- not drugs themselves -- are driving the HIV epidemic and the systemic crime that has swamped our criminal justice systems.
--Vancouver Police Const. Gil Puder
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On 2004-05-22 14:50:00, cherish wisdom wrote:
"I've heard that he looks like the late actor John Candy. The Times interviewed him and he refused to be photographed by them because he didn't want one the crazy kids that have been abused in one of his programs to hunt him down. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Being a street cop, witnessing the tragedy firsthand, I've become
convinced that drug prohibition -- not drugs themselves -- are driving the HIV epidemic and the systemic crime that has swamped our criminal justice systems.
--Vancouver Police Const. Gil Puder
"
Well, at least he had some smarts, cause I would of hunted his ass odwn, that's for sure!
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Let's go huntin in St. George. :rofl: :rofl:
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Do you really realize how pathetic you are when you write this stuff about people you obviously don't even know or even have any accurate information that you respond to... I guess we all need something to give our lives meaning and those who spend allot of time here degrading the reputations of people they don't know or even what they look like must need something to feel the natural void of their lives.... Anyway here are the Facts.... nether Bob or his Brother Narvin are particularly good looking but are wonderful people and no they don't have a brother in Jail and none of their brothers has ever been convicted or tried of child abuse. No there is no case or even allegations of child abuse ever on Narvin in Costa Rica or anywhere else.... Feel free to call the fiscalia in Atenas Costa Rica if your confused on the facts on this.... no child at Dundee ever accused Narvin of anything and the investigation is on the accusations made by a non-custodial parent whose own natural child denied the parents allegation and refused to leave the Dundee program with her.... there is no case of child abuse in Costa Rica... just a year old inquiry about to be closed of spurious allegations made by spurious people like the ones who haunt these pages. Get a life and go join some club or something....
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Depends on how you define the term "abuse".
What you do speaks so loudly that I cannot hear what you say.
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
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LOL
Anyway here are the Facts.... nether Bob or his Brother Narvin are particularly good looking but are wonderful people and no they don't have a brother in Jail and none of their brothers has ever been convicted or tried of child abuse. No there is no case or even allegations of child abuse ever on Narvin in Costa Rica or anywhere else.
I found this funny...an endorsement for the Litchfileds yet it is made anonymously?
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When all you can push in support of your program is "testimonials"---which the old patent medicine rackets had reams of---and the protestation that -"Well, he's never been *convicted* of child abuse...and besides, those kids and their parents are all manipulative little liars!"-
Your offering is pretty damned weak.
These "programs" have been around since the 80's. If you don't have clinical studies with alternative treatment models and controls providing strong support that your system of treatment works better for similarly profiled kids---including *no* treatment but time----than other options------if you don't have hard clinical evidence that the "program" treatment protocol works after 20 plus frigging years then you aren't looking for it-----and the only reason not to be looking for it is because the people running the industry know damned well that hard research would *NOT* support the program treatment methods as safe and effective.
The programs promote themselves using the same old bag of tricks as the pre-FDA patent-medicines, medicine shows, and traveling snake-oil salesmen.
Unsurprisingly, the thing they're the absolute *best* at curing is an excess accumulation of cash in the bank accounts of the parents.
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Anon.
Yo definately dont have your facts straight. Dig deeper. The uglyness is available to be found.
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OK, So Narvin didn't personally knock a kid around. If he saw it happening; everyday; and allowed it to continue; What dose that say about him?
If he decided he couldn't afford city water and so cut it off and then made the 'students' drink contaminated well water; and then lied to them about the sever illness that resulted; What dose that say about him?
If his staff was instructed to withhold the letters and email home describing the resulting sever illness; what does that say about him?
If he knew his 'students' were being thrown to the ground or up against walls while their joints were twisted and pressured into the surface of the wall or ground; for the sole purpose of inflicting pain; for reasons such as smiling or speaking; and he allowed this to go on day after day after day; What does that say about him?
If he frequently herd his 'students' screaming out in pain; begging for help; and he did nothing; What does that say about the man?
If he knew the students diets were severally restricted and that as a result the young men generally lost weight and became sickly as a result; and he approved this; what does that say about him?
If he kept cramming kids in; and cramming kids in; until the overpopulation itself was guaranteed to cause illness and stress; Does that mean anything?
Never mind what the creep looks like!
What kind of men can they be, if this is how they operate their 'schools'?
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This is Narvin
*****OK, So Narvin didn't personally knock a kid around. If he saw it happening; everyday; and allowed it to continue; What dose that say about him?
I never personally observed any abusive action but I did hold numerous meetings with the Joe, Amberly, Conrad and bailey the staff who were in charge of making sure no abuse was ever present this is well documented in meeting notes... you have to understand I was there about 2 weeks out of every month and it was really Joe and Amberlys responsibility to make sure the integrity of the program was maintained and policy and procedure was followed. The Ironic thing is the very person (Amberly) who claimed abuse in writing then contradicts her self in other legal testimony will be the person or persons I go after civilly if it is ever found that abuse did exist...Your logic here isnt really sound here if I am a greedy pig and was making so much cash why would I risk it by Abusing the very students that was my source of income?...I hired them as directors to oversee the staff day to day and make sure the staff was trained and tested on what constituted abuse, every night to insure abuse wasn't present in any form...I also held full facility meetings with all students and staff and told the kids if a staff was ever abusive in any way to let the directors know and that staff if acting out of policy would be fired... this is all well documented in the employee files and nightly tests. Amberly and Vargas did the only abuse I know of personally at Dundee.
****If he decided he couldn't afford city water and so cut it off and then made the 'students' drink contaminated well water; and then lied to them about the sever illness that resulted; What dose that say about him?
I wasn't aware that it was disconnected until a month or so after the fact. It was done by Joe...But you need to understand the well water was tested and used by the hotel that proceeded Dundee for years and was a higher quality of water according to the test then the city water system that in Latin America can be problematic...
******If his staff was instructed to withhold the letters and email home describing the resulting sever illness; what does that say about him?
*****If he knew his 'students' were being thrown to the ground or up against walls while their joints were twisted and pressured into the surface of the wall or ground; for the sole purpose of inflicting pain; for reasons such as smiling or speaking; and he allowed this to go on day after day after day; What does that say about him?
*******If he frequently herd his 'students' screaming out in pain; begging for help; and he did nothing; What does that say about the man?
If he knew the students diets were severally restricted and that as a result the young men generally lost weight and became sickly as a result; and he approved this; what does that say about him?
*******If he kept cramming kids in; and cramming kids in; until the overpopulation itself was guaranteed to cause illness and stress; Does that mean anything?
If,if,if,if wishes were fishes we would have a big fry...If horse crap was biscuits we would eat till we die....Don't mean to be so trite but who writes this stuff? A warren report groupie on who shot JFK
Categorically
NO I was never on the grassy knoll in Dallas and I know of no conspiracy to hide the "illness" From parents or anyone else ..I do remember the doctor said that often the kids who got sick were the new kids and that was normal as their bodies had to adjust to the new environment.
No I never knew or heard kids "screaming" of kids being physically thrown around or whatever and if I did I would have stopped it personally immediately... I did observe staff having a student walk around the pool instead of sitting in OP but when asked the staff said the child choose to do that rather than sit doing nothing. I held a meeting immediately with Joe and Amberly and told them the staff were "doing their own thing and to fix it to conform with policy or get a new staff. It is note worthy that Chris Rhinners mom remarked to me that at home at Chris's school in Virginia fights were every day and he always felt threatened... they even had metal detectors and police on campus...Chris told her that he had never been so secure than when at Dundee. We never had one fight that is so common in public schools or such in two years, and the only abuse she knew about was when Vargas and Pani came in and destroyed the structure and then kids went crazy as they rioted.
No I never saw bad food or problems with the diet the food was prepared by the same chiefs that were employed by the previous hotel and the food was to the same standard and was great I ate it the whole times I was there and the water and never had any problem and compared to basic school lunches it was great....Allot of kids gained weight not lost it and I was concerned more about that but this is common for many kids after being on addictive substances and then entering the program to gain some weight and I wasn't aware of any kids who lost allot of weight unless they were overweight.
I don't want to be mean but both I and Amberly ate the same food as the students and nether of us look like we missed out on to many meals in our lives and you could describe us both as well fed....
Concerning the cramped space... I wasn't able to stay ahead of the growth and made some poor decisions on that issue but again remember it wasn't supposed to be club med and the conditions though later cramped as we grew so fast were far superior to the conditions and living quarters of the average Costa Rican ...as the cartoon in al dia showed the reporter and Pani asking the well fed and well dressed Dundee kid "how was the air conditioning at Dundee" as the kid sipped on a coconut drink, while a flea-bitten fly infested barefoot Costa Rican kid half the other kids size watched and remarked it was good that the government was so concerned about the "poor gringo kids" when he didn't hardly have clothes or food. It also illustrated the fact that Pani's own facilities are terrible and it was sort of hypocritical of them to act as they did but people act funny when they think they are going to be in the papers "saving kids".
***Never mind what the creep looks like!
What kind of men can they be, if this is how they operate their 'schools'?
I have no comment on some one who I've never met making all kinds of statements about someone or something that they have never experienced but responding here to hearsay from dubious sources...sincerely Narvin Lichfield
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Narvin, Your saying our kids ate the food listed on the meal menu?
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As for the Jamicans did Conrad amd Bailey go back to jamaica?
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Narvin, we have never met, but you had my son in your care for four months. In that four months he lost in excess of 20 pounds - and in his case, this was not weight he could afford to loose.
He, as well as other boys, tell me you barely fed them. The diet was severally restricted for the students on lower levels. I have come to believe this is intentional, to help facilitate the brain washing. Hunger increases stress which is an important component of brainwashing. And also, when food is given, it seems like a generous favor and helps create the bond between the captor and prisoner; or student and staff.
You can swear up and down that you ate the same food as the kids and I'll continue to think you a liar for saying so.
He also tells me you lived on the grounds and that there is no way you didn't know kids were being treated in a brutal and painful manor; that you did see and hear it and that you did nothing at all to stop it. Once looking in the OP room during a restraint and never saying a word about what was going on. He was quite angry with you for trying to claim you didn't know what was being done to the kids.
I have come to believe this too, is simply part of the method of creating the right kind of stress to facilitate the brain washing. The expectation of pain; the experience of seeing others being hurt and of being helpless to help them, is all well understood to break a person down for re-programming. In my opinion, this is why you have reports of the exact same kind of brutality coming out of all the wwasp programs.
He laughed out loud at your claim that the kids viewed you as some sort of lovable uncle.
No, that is not the impression the students have of Narvin. Greedy, conniving, uncaring, cold, callous, all being words more appropriate to how the students felt about you. Joe too, for that matter. Oh I suppose you had your favorites, who looked to you for favor, and so might say something nice; but I have yet to speak with anyone like that.
Amberly is different. You know why? She has apologized. She has come to understand what is going on, is in truth, abusive and she deeply regrets it.
In my opinion, you and Joe and Ken, all mislead her as to just what kind of program you were running. I feel she went into it thinking it was in fact everything you claim it is. Her crime the same as mine - believing you. Trusting you. After all, she Thought she knew you. She respected what she Thought you were doing. I feel when she began to learn just how corrupt the program is, she resigned. And don't try to tell me you fired her and all that crap. I was still around when all that went down and I know better.
In my opinion, Amberly is a real life hero. Her bravery and integrity and self sacrificing determination to correct a wrong, as far as she is able, make her so. Its no small thing to stand up against you and your money and your lawyers and say this is wrong.
I wish poor Joe had the same gumption. I do realize it would be much harder for Joe; as he has been raised in the program culture; but I wish he were a stronger, braver man.
The problem with your protest Narvin, is the undeniable fact you have plenty of motivation to lie and manipulate; and so your credibility is much in doubt. Your word is useless. It means nothing; because the motivation for what you say is so self serving; and also flies in the face of common sense and much testimony to the contrary.
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Narvin---I can understand why you would want the standard of comparison for food, water, wellness, etc., to be what the average Tico kid had to live with. That's not an appropriate standard *because* these kids came from the US, not a third world country, and they didn't have to be in that third world country in the first place---they were *sent*.
They didn't ask to be taken out of a first world country and plunked down in a third world one.
The appropriate standard of care is what's considered proper care for an American kid *in the US* and what's considered child neglect *in the US*.
If you can't care for kids in a third world country to the standards of basically not being neglectful *in the US*, then the solution is not to ship them to a third world country against their will in the first place.
My heart bleeds for poor old you that you couldn't care for these kids to first world basic standards of "not child neglect" in a third world country. Yeah, my heart bleeds for you. Not.
Your statement seems to me to amount to an admission of the truth of one of the criticisms that have been made against your facility and places like it for years: That you ship American kids out of the US to get them somewhere where legal standards are lower and you can do things to them that would be illegal in the US but that are either not illegal or are not enforced in a third world country.
If the water isn't clean enough in Costa Rica that the new kids can come in without getting sick then don't freakin' ship them to freakin' Costa Rica you sick little obscenity.
It's one thing to go to a third world country as a tourist, of your own free will, where you can choose what precautions you do or don't take against La Tourista. It's another thing entirely to be *shipped* there.
What you've admitted to is child neglect, and I don't doubt that you've "spun" what you've said to spin yourself into the very best possible light, given what is *provable* against you--the water and overcrowding issues.
If you can't care for children properly in third world countries, then don't ship them there and put them in that added danger in the first place.
You obviously don't think you're a monster, but you are one.
Timoclea
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narvin, where did you attend YOUR discovery class? and when?
just trying to prove you are who you think you are...or is this just another PR ploy?
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Oh, by the way, I don't believe half of what you say, you have zero credibility, but *for the sake of argument* I chose to take your statements at face value.
My point is that even if your own account was scrupulously true, which I *deeply* doubt, you're *still* a monster based just upon what you've admitted to.
Timoclea
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i do know when & where, because i was in your class?
so to say you have never met me is false...to say you didn't know me is false...we have spoken on numerous occasions.
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i have experienced it...it ain't heresay and i'm a credible source!
now what's YOUR excuse gonna be?
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On 2004-11-11 03:16:00, Narvin wrote:
people act funny when they think they are going to be in the papers "saving kids".
Narvin, thanks for dropping by. Is this a little self disclosure here?
How do you explain so many different people telling the same stories about your facilities and other WWASP facilities? They're all lying? Just making up identical bizarre stories, even though they've never met or spoken to each other?
One other question I'd like to ask you. This has been on my mind for a couple of years now and I hope you can clarify this for me.
What is "sweeping the sunshine"? The way I heard it, a group of girls at Dundee were standing out in the sun in straight lines. Each one was holding a broom, absently making sweeping motions with them in the dirt in front of them. None were talking or smiling, but each looking directly in front of them with no expression. When asked what they were doing by an adult who was present, one girl responded "we're sweeping the sunshine".
I also was told that you were present at that time. So can you please explain exactly what "sweeping the sunshine" is and what is it's purpose?
The social principles of Christianity preach cowardice, self-contempt, abasement, submission, humility, in a word all the qualities of the canaille.
--Karl Marx, German economist and political philosopher
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Narvin - are you loosing sleep over this? Looks like you were up at 3 am writing to defend yourself and your pathetic programs. Your youth programs should all be shut down because unconvential and unorthodox behavior modification is used in an often brutal manner. How can anyone justify keeping a youth "on their face" in solitary confinement for 18 months? This is beyond child abuse - it is torture - similar to that used on prisoners of war. If a parent did this to a child they would have to face a court of law. How can this be justified in the name of mental health treatment or even drug rehab?
It seems that you are in this for the money - and you have a lot of it don't you? Just because you pay your tithing doesn't mean you are honest in all your dealings. You are involved in human torture - worse - the torture of human children. You're programs have wasted the lives of many and many are still suffering as a result.
I wasn't aware that your programs even existed and I've been in the medical industry for most of my life. I didn't know until therapists convinced us to send our own daughter to residential treatment. Fortunately we rescued her in a month only to find her bruised and nervous. We still need to comfort her at night when she sobs at 1 am. I can't immagine how those who have been programed for a year or more are holding out.
You will have to give account of what you've done here on earth someday.... God is watching you Narvin.....Given the choice between dancing pigs and security, people will choose dancing pigs every time.
-- Ed Felton (quoted in www-security about Active-X)
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narvin's ass is gone...ran off with flo-jo and her "ho" self!
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That's what men suffering from mid-life psychosis do!
I do not believe in the divinity of Christ, and there are many other of the postulates of the orthodox creed to which I cannot subscribe.
--William Howard Taft, U.S. President
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I have told you all the facts as they exist and as they are and were and will always be... ginger
I know nothing or cant remember anything about the sunshine deal but I know the girls would help sweep the quad every morning as part of their choirs as you can imagine in Costa Rica the leaves from the trees cover everything constantly and it was swept clean every morning.... Consensus developed through prejudiced opinion rarely is evidence of truth. If so the world would actually be flat and the sun would be in orbit along with the rest of the universe around the earth...this was the truth until they saw the whole picture and then when reveled the truth was totally different then they originally believed....concerning the person who son makes claims I don?t recall his situation but the only kids who ate a different diet was the kids in op which was rare and usually short term... the level ones ate the same food as I did and yes I ate there every day. As for Amberly I will include the letter Joe and I wrote to the Pani in rebuttal to her fabrications and some other facts. I find her as a person whose story changes considering who she tells it to and find her disingenuous and extremely Machiavellian below is her own correspondence which illustrates this and also the Panni letter...
amberlyk
Hi everyone! Thanks for your questions and support of the program. Just to clarify on the rice and beans story, when the kids are in worksheets, they eat rice, beans, and fruit. We made this policy so that the kids would have more of an incentive to behave themselves and stay out of worksheets. We also approved it with our doctor before starting it to be sure that they would get all the nutrition they need. While they get bored with it if they are in worksheets for a while, they get plenty to eat and stay healthy. What I've seen with the letters to parents is that when they are manipulating you, they tell you something that has a little tiny truth in it, but twist it around to play with your emotions.
The following letter is our response to the Amberly Knight and Martha. Martin letters, please read all the following documentation. We also have lawsuits pending on these letters seeing they were written in violation of signed confidentiality Agreements that Dundee Ranch Academy had with both of these parties. (These Legal agreements do not cover any issues of Gross Neglect or Abuse, which we encourage in our policy and procedure manuals and all training to be reported by staff to appropriate entities immediately, if it ever occurs.)
We have recently reviewed a couple of critical letters regarding Dundee Ranch Academy from a former employee and parent, and would like to address the concerns that were brought up in those letters, to help put in perspective the issues at hand. The following are the THREE points that should be considered; (1) The letters contained falsehoods and many inaccuracies, (2) Her opinions do not accurately reflect those of the other employees, and (3) This is a good program for most kids, in spite Amberly?s opinions and our actual imperfections.
The letters contained many lies and reckless inaccuracies with slanderous accusations. She states that Joe Atkin left Dundee Ranch Academy because he was ?fed up with the chaos.? We feel this is largely unfair for her to speak in Joe?s behalf, especially considering that he is still working with the company and does not agree with her assessment.
These letters do not represent the opinions of the majority of us who worked at the Academy during that time. Of course, there are always differences between ownership and management, and we had our differences, but the ownership of the facility would not intentionally put the students at risk. Many of us that worked with this former employee have continued with the company and believe in what we are doing. All of us are a part of the organization because we enjoy seeing the change in these young people?s lives. The WWASP organization has been in business for many years and has thousands of supporters; it has a good track record. Is the program for every troubled teen? No, but it has obviously worked for many struggling young adults. Attached to this letter are the opinions of other employees and their feelings regarding the recent letters? In short, the critical letters are exaggerated and outdated.
Amberly represented that this program has profit margins of ?50-75%,? which shows her naivety and business inexperience. Besides the fact that she was not privy to our financial records, anyone who has run a business knows this is impossible. Furthermore, our goal has been to provide the same services that one would receive in the states at a lower tuition rate. Do we have cost controls? Yes. Her examples of the profit margins on our charges were grossly overstated, such as the mark-up in transportation and prescriptions. There are many operational costs involved in providing these services that were blatantly ignored.
Although exaggerated and in some cases slanderous, some situations had some small truth to them and have been addressed and solved by management. The former employee has not been on campus for over 7 months and is not aware of the changes that have occurred in that time. The overcrowding in the dorms was solved by providing the girls with a separate dorm building; thus, reducing the number of students in a room. Our water source is regularly checked and has been consistently found to be a better quality than the public water. The letters mentioned that students writing essays were not provided with proper back support; however, all students were and are provided with the standard chairs with back supports. It was said that the students are not well fed; yet the students are gaining the weight and muscle back that they had previously lost prior to arriving at the Academy. The students are healthy. The incident last year when toilet paper was not available on campus was the fault of our Management team, not the owners. It did not happen because of a lack of financial resources, but rather irresponsible purchasing coordination. It was said that students don?t have a chance to grieve; yet we have a Grievance Committee that meets twice a week to review the students? grievances. These grievances typically have to do with points, and we would take very seriously any grievance on abuse. Our policies dictate that if this were to happen we would do an investigation and report it to authorities as defined by legal council.
There was even a false accusation that a student actually died at some ?High Impact? program in Mexico. This is completely UNTRUE and unrelated to our Academy, since we have never been there or sent any of our students there. This was simply an attempt to build distrust and insecurity in our program. The Basic Training facility that we are building down here is not modeled after the ?High Impact? program, and its facilities are actually quite nice. Further more, this program is not even open.
Our program was established to help kids, not punish them. Our systems such as Observational Placement (not Observational Punishment) are designed for control, not punishment. Students are only required to be placed in there for one hour, if they remain in control of themselves. Restraints are used at times, but only by trained staff. Our program teaches the student that they are in control by making correct decisions. Their behaviors determine their rewards, and we reward them often. Like the students, our behavior determines our rewards and consequences. We take accountability in creating much of the confusion that is circulating because of these recent emails. Had our program run perfect, they would most likely not be circulating, but we have not had a perfect track record.
In regards to the graduate students that came here as ?interns,? here are the facts. The ownership had no knowledge that they were even hired, and they were actually hired by Amberly. Once they arrived, Joe told Amberly to remove the former students from the campus several days before the actual incident happened. Amberly insubordinately refused stating it was her right as "director" this discussion was not shared with the owner till after the incident and if he had known he would have fired Amberly right then; and this sad Incident would have never happened. A few days later, there was some kind of altercation that took place after hours in staff housing and one of them was hurt. As a company, we covered the financial burdens that were created, even though this was not our creation. (over $15,000 in medical expenses) The "interns" involved were both over 18 and were on their own time (Again, the ownership had no knowledge that these Interns existed, and he was in Texas on business when the events occurred. We have continued to support this former student and thank heavens she has recovered remarkably well. It was at this same time that Amberly ?resigned,? knowing that upon review of the situation her services would be terminated. Because of our separation, we feel that Amberly has started this controversy. If Amberly was so truly concerned about the quality of the program, why did she wait 7 months to send her ?letter?? The program teaches that living in Integrity is acting in the now, not 7 months later.
Some have speculated that the reason for staff turn over is low wages; however, this is not the case. We provide our staff members with rewarding wages as well as full health insurance. We have become one of the largest employers in the area and have provided significant economic impact to the surrounding areas. Our wages have been competitive enough to attract employees from San Jose as well. It is true we have had several Directors and Family Reps. leave Dundee. Most of these were Americans and came with a short-term commitment in mind. Many have continued to work with the WWASP organization. We are now recruiting more Costa Rican staff that will be with us for the long-term.
We want constructive feed back, and we encourage it, then and now. We are always trying to make the program more responsive to the needs of the students and the parents. We want to put these letters behind us and get on with the management and operation of the very finest school possible. We are working with the U.S. Consul General and Child Services of Costa Rica (PANI) in a mutual effort to insure the safety of our students, and to insure that parents are receiving the educational and residential benefits hoped for. If you have concerns regarding your child or the program, PLEASE CHECK INTO THEM!!! Please feel free to contact us directly at http://www.academydundee.org (http://www.academydundee.org) under student photos KRISTEN IS IN THE SECOND GROUP OF GIRLS TOP ROW IN THE MIDDLE.
SHE IS IN DIAMONDS.
James & Yvette
Daughter Kristen M. enrolled since December 13.
Posts: 21 | From: Harvey, Louisiana | IP: Logged |
sarahsmom
Member
Member # 1362
posted March 15, 2003 07:50 AM
Jim and Yvette,
As I said privately this is awesome and reassuring to get from Kristen. It is also enough to hopefully reassure you that "things" are okay at Dundee and the students are not "touched" by all the "crap" going on with the "Knight" and "Amberly" issues.
The "e-mail" that is out to people apparently started out as personal and somehow ended up in someone else?s hands. Where is the integrity and accountability of the person who underhandedly did this? People are still talking about the management rather than questioning the security and freedom to express on this board. The incidents involved also occurred months ago (like back in the summer of 2002). Why do people keep bringing up stuff that is old and water under the bridge?
As I said in other post, this is not the first of disgruntled incidents and probably not the last. The management has stood accountable to us that they are aware, working on the issues and are ready to move onto improvement to better the "complaints and allegations" put forth by the involved people and we, the parents.
You'll be going to Discovery very soon and will be able to converse with your daughter about the awesome adventure of Discovery (it is not everyone?s cup of tea, but if open minded, a sip of the tea and make a difference). Sign up for Focus (you'll have a chance there) and give it a try, it can't hurt.
You are still in the early stages and look at the progress she is making! I bet all of her e-mails have changed and she?s not blaming anymore, this is great.
Can't wait to meet and good luck in everything to BOTH of you. Keep me posted and let's plan for the next support meeting.
Awesome job, to your daughter, tell her hi from us.
Kudos,
Debby
Daughter Sarah D @ CSA since 6/01, Dundee Ranch 10/6/02-12/26/02 Level 5, PCII 12/02
I am an honest, worthy, powerful woman with a purpose to grow within myself and to show my self-confidence and excellence to others as well as be in service to others.
Discovery, Focus, Visions Grad, and Staffed Adult Focus & Discovery with the kids of CSA 2/27/03. Brother Charlie a Teen Discovery Grad!
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Posts: 790 | From: Hammond, Louisiana | IP: Logged |
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Narvin, you are a pathetic waste of space. Why do you feel compelled to address your detractors now, after all this time? Is it because the TRUTH is hunting you and your kind down??!! Of course your going to deny the allegations of abuse, the abuse is your bread and butter! So all of these hundreds of children are lying? Not you or the other corporate HOGS!!! What else could you possibly do and earn so much money? What is your educational background or work experience?
Come on Narvin tell the truth, it will set you FREE! Oh, I guess in your case it would put you behind BARS!
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Narvin is doing this because he is trying to reopen Dundee Academy!
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Anon,
If you dont believe the multiple stated allegations of abuse about Narvin and Dundee,try researching the DOS and CPS in South Carolina in regard to Narvin's Carolina Springs.
The facts are well documented. No excuse you can TRY and make will dispute those facts.
They were well exposed in Federal court this past Auguset. The jury thought so anyway..
In my experience the WWASP adminstrators and employees are all LIARS.
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Narvin is spewing his lies about Dundee because he is currently in the process of re-opening Dundee under the name Pillars of Hope, and if people will know the truth about what's going on in WWASP's concentration camps, Narvin won't be able to keep on making money on the backs of thousands of children.
I can't wait to see Narvin, his brother, and their WWASP accomplices in prison, where they belong.
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Ok, Narvin. That was rediculously and needlessly long. I won't delete it, but if you keep on doing that it's considered flooding. Makes it difficult for people w/ slow connections to read the forum. So please don't, ok?
On 2004-11-11 22:24:00, Anonymous wrote:
Consensus developed through prejudiced opinion rarely is evidence of truth. If so the world would actually be flat and the sun would be in orbit along with the rest of the universe around the earth...
This is ironic as hell! Narvin, it's the other way around! Only if you insulate yourself from broader opinion can you continue to believe that the methods employed by WWASP and other Synanon based programs are not abusive. Back in the days of Galaleo, the King and the Church did just what you do, Narvin; they punished and intimidated anyone who spoke the 'herasy' that the Earth is a globe which circles the Sun. And, like the faltering Church w/ it's endless crusades, you too will fail. The truth just has a way of leaking out, or seeping in, no matter how hard you try to compartmentalize.
Good luck to you, though. I mean that. I've recently had the opportunity to communicate w/ some of the hard core members of the specific treatment cult that first sabotaged my family. Their group recently fell apart and has left the long term members quite distressed and untethered. And I find that, now that they're no longer a threat, I have nothing but sympathy for them. Of course, they were never half--even one tenth--as brutal as you Mormon Gods are said to be. Your milage may vary.
People who are willing to give up freedom for the sake of short term security, deserve neither freedom nor security.
--Benjamin Franklin
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Narvin, you, yourself, used Dundee's presence in Costa Rica as an excuse for not providing the kids adequately clean water to keep the new ones from getting sick.
Anybody with even a rudimentary knowledge of public health knows that what causes "La Tourista" is fecal coliform bacteria (E. coli).
Normally, if people drink somewhat dirty water from where they live, they *may* avoid getting sick because they have a tolerance to their own local strains of E. coli.
*However*---if you go to a foreign country, you only get sick with "La Tourista" (aka "Montezuma's Revenge" aka "a stomach bug") if there is fecal coliform bacteria contaminating your food or water.
Clean food and water = no "La Tourista."
You used the poor water quality in Latin America and the quality of life of the average Tico as an excuse.
That dog won't hunt.
Those kids are only in a Latin American country in the first place because you people, in concert with complicit parents, are shipping them down there against their will.
Don't ship them to Costa Rica in the first place and they don't get La Tourista.
If you were only taking kids that *chose* to go there, it would be different--they'd have assumed the risk.
The difference between what you do and a voluntary vacation to Brazil or Mexico is the difference between a kid who breaks an arm because he falls down playing soccer versus a kid who breaks an arm because someone pushed him down a flight of stairs.
The soccer kid assumed the risk, from voluntarily choosing to play a very active sport.
The kid pushed down the stairs was *forced* into the risk. Maybe he'd break his arm falling down stairs. Maybe he'd fall right and only get a few bruises.
But pushing someone down the stairs is an inherently unsafe activity.
So is shipping kids to a third world country and giving them only contaminated water to drink.
Sure, the locals can drink the contaminated water and rarely get sick, unless cholera gets loose. The locals have developed immunity to the contaminated water.
That doesn't make it okay to ship foreign kids in and give them only contaminated water.
You *could* have built a small-scale water treatment system on site---all it would have taken was adding the correct amount of chlorine bleach to the water, then letting the water sit in a clean, protected vat for most of the chlorine to go ahead and evaporate out.
The illness would have been easily prevented. You just didn't give enough of a damn to care, because "it was mostly the new kids" getting sick---and you didn't think that was a problem.
If I was knowingly making *my* kid drink water contaminated with fecal coliform bacteria, and it made her sick, *I'd* have CPS down on my ass in a heartbeat.
So would any other US parents with the kid living at home.
And, obviously, your "Pillars of Hope" won't be any better, because you don't see contaminated water as a problem as long as the locals can drink it and as long is it's "mostly the new kids" getting sick.
And this is just what you've *admitted* to.
You rotten bastard.
Timoclea
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I just read Narvin's very long argument in favor of WWASP programs that according to Narvin help many troubled youth.
One thing Narvin needs to realize is that any parent can send their child to a WWASP program for almost any reason including attention deficite disorder.
Narvin indicated:
"We also have lawsuits pending on these letters seeing they were written in violation of signed confidentiality Agreements that Dundee Ranch Academy had with both of these parties."
Narvin - your agreement may be unconscionable and unenforceable - Particularly when there have been numerous reports of abuse and maltreatment from former clients. As you indicated the aggreement did not include reports of abuse.
I don't really know what you consider abuse. You see - as a licensed professional - I consider it appaling and abusive to keep children "on their face" in your version of OP placement for extended periods of time. A British reporter indicated that one girl had been "on her face" in observation for 18 MONTHS. 18 MONTHS OF HER LIFE WASTED lyiing on her abdomen on a concrete floor. This is horrendous abuse and it take place at most of you facilities. It is the equivalent of keeping child locked in a closet for 18 months. This would put the parent behind bars in all 50 States. But not you Narvin - because you have confidentiality agreements and for some deranged reason believe that keeping a child in solitary confinement - laying on their abdomen for 18 MONTHS is therapeutic. YOU ARE DERANGED IF YOU SUPPORT THIS - and you are obviously not a trained professional. Many children have complained of being slammed to the floor in human restraint. In fact - one indicated that you participated in this. I agree that it could be necessary at times - if someone is completely out of control. Human restraint is used for insubordination all to often in RTC's. It is lethal and many have died as a result. Why don't you train your staff to try therapeutic communication first -instead of body slamming.
The techniques used in your dens of horror are not approved of by the professional organizations. Does this concern you at all?
These children should not have their minds reprogramed. This is why your reprograming program takes so long. Most reputable drug-rehab programs take 1-3 months - not 1-3 years.....
[ This Message was edited by: cherish wisdom on 2004-11-12 09:09 ][ This Message was edited by: cherish wisdom on 2004-11-12 09:15 ]
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Oh, and bleach won't kill Giardia, iirc, so to *not* give the kids contaminated water, you'd need to be having it periodically tested, and if the local water has problems with Giardia, you'd need to treat for that, too.
And all you'd have had to do is send a staffer to training to learn how to do the tests and then add water purifiers to kill the Giardia *if* it showed up---and the staffer testing the post-treatment water regularly (including, duh, using multiple vats to evaporate off chlorine so you could periodically empty each vat and give it a thorough scrubbing) would have ensured that the kids were drinking and having their food washed and prepared with clean water.
Geez, how slack and incompetent and uncaring are you? All this information is readily available for hikers and after emergencies like hurricanes and such for what it takes to ensure drinking water is clean and your food is clean and uncontaminated.
You shouldn't be running any kind of facility where people live. Unless you're willing to do your homework to operate that facility in a way that is not a public health threat, get in a business that doesn't involve that responsibility.
You could retrain to be anything from a hairdresser to a construction worker to a lawyer to an accountant. Good grief, you could open a facility making widgets and run and manage it. You could hire on for someone else doing middle management.
But if you're not willing to worry about basic health standards like clean water and uncontaminated food, get out of any business involving residential care.
Want to help people? Go to work for Habitat for Humanity, or the Red Cross. Want to help kids? Go to work for "Big brothers and big sisters" or the Boy Scouts or anything that doesn't involve direct residential care. Want to help "troubled youth"? Open a vocational training center and help them train for jobs.
But if you can't be bothered about clean water, stay the hell out of residential care.
Timoclea
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And where is the integrity and accountability of the fellow parents on this board who copy and paste our conversations?
Indeed.
Narvin - there is much I'd like to respond to, but the one thing that strikes me the most about this latest entry of yours is the posting of the BBS posts!
Did you ask Deb or Don or Linda or any of them for their permission to do this?
I do a little doubt it.
And this is an outrageous thing for you to do. The BBS is supposed to be a safe and confidentional place for these people to express their concerns and thoughts etcetera - And here you have plastered them all over an open internet Forum - Filled with people who might think it amusing to harrass them a little - And for no good reason at all!
I know you Think these posts are proof of your position that your a good guy; and Amberly and company disgruntled manipulative liars - But don't you realize when you come here, you are no longer in the presence of the Programmed masses?!
These people Think for themselves and many know all to well how little "critical" thinking takes place among the Legions of Faithful!
Geez man - don't you think things threw at all?
On to other matters -
Yes, its true the girls gain weight. This does nothing to discount the weight the boys loose. I have wondered why it is the girls ALL report weight gain - sometimes a lot; and the boys ALL complain of weight loss - sometimes a lot. I have long been puzzled by this. Maybe you can explain it for me. Myself, I think it must have something to do with the program goal of destroying their concept of self; a way to facilitate the program goal of making them feel despondent and worthless in the early stages of the brain washing.
With the opposite sexes, you need to accomplish opposite goals with regard to weight. So you fatten the girls and thin the boys to accomplish the same emotional / psychological toll.
Or maybe, its just girls gain weight on beans and rice and boys loose on the same kind of diet.
What say you?
As for Amberly - everything I said before:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=20#67296 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=2634&forum=9&start=20#67296)
and this:
She stayed because she felt she could make things better. All these things she has spoken out about, are things she was hoping to rectify and make right. I don't think she understood, it was the way it was (and is) for a reason; that the abuse and neglect are systematic and for a purpose. I think she thought she could improve circumstances as Director, and have the kind of teen help program she thought she was hired into in the first place. As time passed, and you shot down all her efforts; telling her again and again to basically "stuff it" - if she didn't like how things were to leave - She left. And then began trying to get word out with regard to the realities of life at Dundee ranch; Despite you and your money and your lawyers and your threats.
As for sweeping sunshine, maybe this will refresh your memory:
10/20/02
By James Varney Latin America correspondent
. . .about 10 girls were pushing brooms in the hot sun.. .
Outside, the girls pushing the brooms asked repeatedly for water. "Si, un poco water," a counselor replied in an odd mix of Spanish and English, but no water was distributed. One of the sweepers crouched with a hacking cough, and another, her face and arms flushed, came unglued. Shaking and sobbing, she moved toward the shade.
Narvin, do you really expect people to believe this wasn't pure punishment?
As for the water; There is just no excuse for what you did; and its appalling for you to blame Joe for it. You mean to tell me Joe took it upon himself to cut off the city water and give the kids well water without your input? Com -on! Get real. He *might* have made the phone call to cut off the water - but if so, You told him to.
And I'd like to know why Daniel held my sons email, describing the resulting extreme illness (chills, fever, vomiting, diarreah & hives) until long after he was pulled and gone? I expect it was a mistake of some sort, I ever got it at all. And, I'd like to know what was in the shots you were giving my son as a result? Another student tells me it was morphine - that the nurses shot the kids up with morphine - and also morphine pills - the little white pills so often mentioned.
What about it dude?
Where you shooting my son up with morphine?
Where the needles sterile?
And why was I told, when I inquired about this illness, that it had been a mild allergic reaction to a tomato? Odd he's never had any other such reaction to tomatoes - and never mentioned tomatoes being on the menu at Dundee.
Why was he told he had the Costa Rican flu?
Why not just tell the truth? We poisoned the kids with contaminated well water b/c the 3 grand a month isn't enough to allow us to pay for city water? Now, whats wrong with the Truth? Huh Narvin? Why Lie?
::bandit::
[ This Message was edited by: BuzzKill on 2004-11-12 19:08 ]
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The papers my ex husband signed that placed my sons in Dundee Ranch stated that in joint custody situations both parents must agree to the placement and both parents must sign the documents. Why did you break your own rule?
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So many people here say things like burn in hell and call me names as if that gives validity to their argument or point. Then they also like to quote a newspaper story, which is usually inaccurate, biased and filled with spin to lend legitimacy to the salacious, and manipulative claims. No there is no evidence or even an allegation of Narvin Lichfield personally abusing anyone in anyway. In Costa Rica or anywhere else for that matter there isn?t because it never happened and therefore never existed. But that?s what courts are for to expose hearsay and glean out the precious truth? But there is quite allot of it (abuse) heaped upon him and others who dared to make a difference for young people, in places such as this but this goes to show the hypocrisy of this whole sistuation wherein things such as the truth are inopportune incontinences to be sacrificed on the altar of child advocacy.
?..It doesn?t matter what the facts are its your personal opinion that is the truth here?.this forum isn?t in anyway a search for truth but simply an exercise in bigotry, slander, and a feeble attempt of the biased minds seeking to maintain such prejudice regardless the facts. The paper said it so it must be true?.
Cary I wasn't aware of that situation ? I am sorry if someone in admissions didn?t get your support they should have and maybe we wouldn?t be talking about Dundee in the pass tense
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Carey,
In reply to this email I must say that you sound very defensive. I will answer your questions to the best of my ability without sounding neither defensive or judgmental. I am curious though...if you didn't know where your boys were how did you get access to the BBS? Not the general site but the BBS?
The schools have a school board, I agree. They are suppose to check everyone out but apparently some fall through the cracks; such as the coaches arrested for porno, the teachers accused of sexual relations with teens, and teachers and counselors who have drug or alcohol problems? You see no one is perfect- not you, me or our children or the people we entrust them to. Also, in case you haven't heard there has been problems getting certified teachers in our school systems.
As a parent I do not have a choice in who our schools hire, as in the hiring process. It is after the person has been exposed to our children that we may find out about their personality, work ethics etc.
My daughter entered the school because she was involved with internet chat rooms, lying about who she was etc. She was defiant, depressed related to her father's death, would not cooperate with counselors, hung with kids who drank and probably used drugs and she was in a private school! Before she got to the point that your children did (according to the news article) I did the best thing I could before I possibly would have found her dead. She is a temporary student at Dundee and has been in the program for 16 months. It is the best thing I could have done for our family.
I am sorry that you feel that you cannot see both sides of the program. No program is perfect. You apparently tried with your boys, "their mother, exasperated by their drinking and cavalier attitude toward curfews and other parental safeguards" sent them to their father and the behavior continued. This is in your news article also. It would seem that both of you made attempts to help them and someone entrusted the program based on their history. This was an attempt to help them become accountable for their actions. Drinking at age 15-16 is illegal, as well as being unhealthy and dangerous.
You have your right to an opinion just as I and many others. Your article came across as a tool to help you when you go to court or whatever. It was very negative and was not accurate. It appeared as if you were exposing your dirty laundry for all to see, was this fair to your boys? News sells for negative things and the article was very one sided....your view. Hopefully in the future another article will be written that will show a better happier side of not only the program but of local La. teens who have been through the program and survived the changes and live on in their integrity.
I am proud to be a "program parent" to be able to sleep at night to know where my children are, who they are with and that they can be accountable for their actions. They have direction in their lives as I do and together we are happier and are goal oriented. There are consequences for our actions and consistency, and I am happy that the system has worked for my family. There are no guarantees in life, as my ex-husband found out, death can get anyone and then there are only regrets.
I read your letter on the bbs. The one in reference to the news story about Dundee.
Well I ask, how can you have an opinion about boys that you don't know?
Have you done any research independent of the information provided to you by WWASP or Dundee? Have you asked any questions about the people who work at Dundee? Well I have. I asked both directors, Amberly and Joe, about the people who work there. I explained to them that I needed to feel comfortable with the people who would be working with my kids. After all, these are teens with problems. So I wanted to know how the employees were trained. I asked what kind of credentials the employees had. I asked for their first and last names so that I could do background checks on them. As a parent, should not I be allowed to have access to this information. I would think if everything were on the up and up, they would be more than willing to furnish that information to parents. But you know what Joe's response was? He said, I don't have time to provide me with that information.
Now as for Amberly, she did not provide me with the answers to my questions because she was fired. Do you know why she was fired? Well, she was fired because of an assault and rape that took place at Dundee in August. The US Embassy knows about the assault and rape. But I bet, Dundee has not informed parents about it, have they? No they haven't.
First, I am not writing to you to try and justify my actions. I am just trying to ask you to take a step back and look at the situation from your own persepective and not that of WWASP. You have a right to question me and you have a right to question WWASP. You have the ability to form your own opinion separate and apart from me or WWASP.
You cant' say the program has worked for your daughter, she is still there. It won't be until she comes home and once again has to make decisions for herself in which she will then be held accountable for. Right now decisions are being made for her. I see that the program is working for you because you aren't having to deal with her.
Your daughter suffers from depression. Did you not read the Enrollment Agreement? They state on page one that Dundee Ranch is not recommended for students who are depressed. Did you not read what you signed? The girl at Tranquility Bay that commited suicide was depressed. WWASP claims that she was depressed befor she got there. Is that not the same for your daughter. Your daughters father died and instead of seeking professional help you send her to Dundee? With no trained therapist how can the "program" at Dundee help her?
In this letter your daughter has behavior that needs to be modified. Make up your mind, does she or doesn't she? Do you know? Well, if you email WWASP they will tell you what she needs. Is that the way it should be?
Schools in the United States, good schools, will disclose to parents information concerning employees. If a teacher rapes a student they do not try to hide it. That is public information. That is the difference. But keep in mind the risk of good schools having incidents like that occur are less likely than WWASP schools because teachers are fingerprinted and a criminal check is done before they are hired. That greatly reduces the risk of a child being abused physically or mentally. I prefer that my children be protected to the fullest extent. Why risk a child to save a child?
I pray for you and your daughter. I think you are confused and truely think you are doing what is best for your child. I don't think you are deliberatley trying to hurt your child or that you want anyone else to hurt your child. I just think you see what they want you to see.
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Narvin - you really shouldn't try and respond before you've woken up - or while high - or whatever is wrong with you tonight.
Pull yourself together and com on back and answer the ligitimet questions asked of you.
And one more:
Are you trying to claim what was reported about the girls with the brooms never happened?
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I made my assessment as did other parents in this area (Southeast Louisiana) who have children in the program with similar problems. I have completed all of the seminars and am aware of the manipulation and ways that people can jump to conclusions before they have the facts.
From what I read in the article the information was not based on one specialty program but lumped all of them together. WWASP and the others philosophy are not the same. Other programs do not involve the parents, have you attended the seminars? I am not sure that you have or you would have considered the long term effect of what you did.
I am well aware of the problems that have occurred at several of the schools...are they perfect? no...do they claim to be perfect ? no. Are they discrete and attempt to handle the problems internally, without hundreds of parents putting in their two cents, I think so.
I was very angry with the newspaper article, then I read it again and realized it was self-serving. I have contacted the writer and we are communicating for a future article.
Let me ask you...do you do a complete background check on your sons school teachers? Their friends? or for that matter the people you work for? Most likely not...you go on the trust of others.
I am not trying to be confrontational or judgmental but very concerned about what will happen to your children coming back into the same situation and probably among the same friends??? You stated you couldn't control them and neither could their father. He tried to help them but that was interrupted. Is this a pattern for you?
I think I can understand why you were not given the credentials of the staff, could they risk you putting those employees names and backgrounds in the news and courts? There is a privacy act in the US and I bet some sort of one in Costa Rica.
My child has been in the WWASP system for 16 months. She WAS NOT into drugs, sex or juvenile delinquency yet....but was headed there. I allowed my child at age 13 to enter the program and I don't regret it one minute. I did my research, I visited prior to admission and I have a very good relationship with both schools. My daughter is at Dundee as part of the upper level Leadership program. This will allow her to transition into high school. It is a wonderful gift.
There are probably more success stories than there are poor disgruntled ones. The decision to help your child before their short lives could end is a gift that can live on forever.
I truly hope you have made the best decision for your children and that you and your ex-husband can work this out because your children are in need of both of you. You have many challenges ahead of you and I wish you well.
There are numerous families in Southeast Louisiana area who have /had children at the different schools including Dundee, TB and CASA (all out of the country). There are several families that belong to a support group that is available in this area. It is good to have the support group, BBS and FR to help us through this experience.
Good luck with your journey.
I read your letter on the bbs. The one in reference to the news story about Dundee.
Well I ask, how can you have an opinion about boys that you don't know?
Have you done any research independent of the information provided to you by WWASP or Dundee? Have you asked any questions about the people who work at Dundee? Well I have. I asked both directors, Amberly and Joe, about the people who work there. I explained to them that I needed to feel comfortable with the people who would be working with my kids. After all, these are teens with problems. So I wanted to know how the employees were trained. I asked what kind of credentials the employees had. I asked for their first and last names so that I could do background checks on them. As a parent, should not I be allowed to have access to this information. I would think if everything were on the up and up, they would be more than willing to furnish that information to parents. But you know what Joe's response was? He said, I don't have time to provide me with that information.
Now as for Amberly, she did not provide me with the answers to my questions because she was fired. Do you know why she was fired? Well, she was fired because of an assault and rape that took place at Dundee in August. The US Embassy knows about the assault and rape. But I bet, Dundee has not informed parents about it, have they? No they haven't.
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I don't drink at all - don't smoke or use any drugs. BUT AT 16 - I did all of those things and so did most of my friends and at least 40% of the other teens in the 1970's. The same is true today (if not worse) I straightend out after a year of this - ON MY OWN - without therapists, drugs, residential treatment.
At some point parents need to realize that alcohol is part of our culture - it's everywhere. If you drink it - your kids will probably try it too.
There is so much in the bible against which every insinct of my being rebels, so much so that I regret the necessity which has compelled me to read it through from beginning to end. I do not think that the knowledge I have gained of its history and sources compensates me for the unpleasant details it has forced upon my attention.
--Helen Keller, American lecturer
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First, the school that boys attend here in the states have a school board. These individuals are elected by the people. These school board memebers do criminal records checks, background checks, check the work history of the people who are hired and then they are hired if and only if they have the credentials necessary for teaching children. Second, the schools here hires counselors, who are trained with the proper credentials.
You don't thinks parents have a right to "put in there two cents" where their kids are concerned? Well I do!
I also want to questions the reason that you have sent your child to Dundee. You said she was doing fine. You stated , "She WAS NOT into drugs, sex or juvenile delinquency yet....but was headed there." Dundee is set up as a "behavior modification". So were you trying to modify behavior that she was not already displaying? That does not make any sense. You sent her for leadership?
My boys will be helped by true professionals. Dundee and/or WWASP have nothing to offer in regard to true professional, caring help. Dundee spends all their resources on convering things up.
Should you as a parent check out the employees at WWASP. Yes you should. You know why you should? Well, because they do not want to be accountable for their employees. They state that in their enrollment agreement. They teach accountability, so they say, but not by example. They even told you about that before you signed on the dotted line.
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I predict that the bitch who shipped her kid to Dundee because the kid logged into a couple of chat rooms, was grieving her dead father, was a normally grumpy teen, and had friends who were normal I-wanna-have-fun grumpy teens---I predict the bitch spends a very, very *lonely* old age where her daughter doesn't talk to her at all.
And she deserves to.
Timoclea
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Narvin - good to hear from you. As for all the hate coming from this board, it's to be expected. Only one or two had a child at Dundee and it wasn't about Dundee for one, but about a parent not telling the other about what he was dong. I'm not sure I wouldn't feel the same if my ex-husband secretly shipped my kids off somewhere without my knowledge. It's so easy to get caught up in the negative when there's fear involved. As for BuzzKill, Karen, she honestly believes what she says and what her son told her. Sad.
The others don't understand the full family involvement, the support groups, the seminars to help us find out what is truly important in our lives and live it, not just talk about it. And most important, how we rebuild our relationship with our child and ourself, one lesson and one day at a time.
I personally have no first hand knowledge of Dundee other than the kids that graduated from there, but I do know that parents and professionals are on campus every single day. They attend group, attend teen seminars next to their child, eat the same food and are welcome even without prior notice. Letters are not monitored (We wish they had been in the beginning!) It changed my life and the life of someone very special to me. He's been home for several years and my gratitude will always be with the staff who unselfishly gave so much to him. This young man is a hero for doing something so powerful that he never thought he could.
The only way to stop the need for schools like this is to address the underlying causes of the breakdown, in both the parents and the child, in other words, the whole family. WWASPS does this on a daily basis. Better watch out, you're doing such a great job, someday there won't be a need for "troubled teen" schools anymore! In the meantime, I'm grateful WWASPS schools are there. :wink:
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Program Parent,You said with you have no first hand knowledge of dundee, Then you said parents and professionals were on campus every day. Which is it? My daughter also talks of pills and shots given to her, I would also like to know what they were. Narvin, alot of the kids talk about a young boy age 13 screaming in O.P they said he screamed like a girl, You must remember the screaming, Boys and girls remember him.
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//As for BuzzKill, Karen, she honestly believes what she says and what her son told her. Sad. //
I do indeed believe my son. He isn't a liar with regard to things of this nature. He had no motivation to lie at all when he began telling me what was going on at Dundee. He had been out of the place for months when he started talking.
And, his testimony is supported by similar (even identical) accounts from many other boys; and not just from Dundee, but from all the wwasp programs.
I think the Quantity & Consistency of the accounts proves their credibility.
You, on the other hand - my program friend - You chose to think the kids are all liars; and the program owners and staff the truthful ones.
This, despite the fact They have a great deal of motivation to lie to you. This, despite the fact, you can never get a straight answer from them when asking direct questions; and the explanations they do give are so full of holes you could drive a mac truck threw them. This, despite the fact, they have admitted to press and in court to things anyone would define as abusive. I mean Anyone. Unless they are Programmed. You have been robbed of your ability to think for yourself. You think what your told to think by your program. Sad. Very sad indeed.
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Joe reportedly wrote:
"The Costa Rican people are actually renown for their caring nature, "
I can believe this. I do believe this. THIS is why I think Narvin imported the Jamaicans. I have heard that when the Costa Ricans were guarding OP, they would allow the kids to relax a little and talk quietly among themselves; And would warn them when a Jamaican or a Mormon was coming so they could reassume the position. I have often heard it was the Jamaicans the kids where afraid of. Funny Joe didn't mention any of this.
Also from Joe:
" If you have received some negative information about the Academy, or would simply like to talk about some concerns that you are having regarding your child"
*note: he went on to suggest a call or letter.
Odd. When I asked Joe about my concerns, he told me he would look into it and get back to me. Soon thereafter, he resigned. He Never did get back to me.Odd. Wonder why?
This just slays me - Ken Kay explains:
"By the way OP stands for "observation placement"......not punishment.
Sincerely,
Ken Kay
President "
OP may not "stand" for punishment - but hell's bells - what else can you call it? It is extremely punishing. It mirrors the treatment inflicted upon POWs and prisoners at Devils Island! The stress position that Must be maintained - or very painful restraint (torture) will result. The Silence that Must be maintained, or very painful restraint (torture) will result. The hunger. The lack of restroom breaks. The forced and extream exercise. But this is observation place - not punishment! And you poor program junkies suck it up. Sad. So very sad.
Heres why:
"You'll be going to Discovery very soon and will be able to converse with your daughter about the awesome adventure of Discovery (it is not everyone?s cup of tea, but if open minded, a sip of the tea and make a difference). Sign up for Focus (you'll have a chance there) and give it a try, it can't hurt"
Can't hurt?
Oh, but it can.[ This Message was edited by: BuzzKill on 2004-11-13 07:18 ]
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Narvin - good to hear from you. As for all the hate coming from this board, it's to be expected. Only one or two had a child at Dundee and it wasn't about Dundee for one, but about a parent not telling the other about what he was dong. I'm not sure I wouldn't feel the same if my ex-husband secretly shipped my kids off somewhere without my knowledge.
Anon, that is not entirely the case. Yes my ex was wrong for not including me on a decision that greatly impacted all of us in my family but Dundee did nothing to correct the situation. Instead they did everything they could to try and keep my kids in the program. You see I wrote and called and even took my case to court because my kids were placed there without my consent. Dundee and it's directors did everything they could to try and keep my kids there even after knowing about my objections.
If Dundee truely believed that the program is good for the whole family and that the program requires the involvement of the whole family in order for it to be successful then the whole family must be in on the decision of placement. Narvin no matter what the truth is in regard to the alligations made against you, you should have realized that in my families case it was not the right choice. Maybe I did not talk to you personally but it was your school and in my opinion you are responsible for your employees, Amberly and Joe. They both knew. I can't believe that you were not made aware of my situation.
FYI, they are doing very good. Both are working, both have taken their GED and both have learned to put thier experience in perspective.
I will say this, Dundee was not as bad as the nightmares that I had invisioned. But, I still would not have ever chosen a place like Dundee. I value communication and I found that Dundee worked too hard to control what I valued.
I don't hate you Narvin. I may have said so in the past when emotions were high, but not now. I just don't appreciate that while most program people promote "a parents right to choose what is in the best interest of their child" your school tried to take that right away from me.
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Might the CR employees be the ones Narvin referred to when he said this:
"I did observe staff having a student walk around the pool instead of sitting in OP but when asked the staff said the child choose to do that rather than sit doing nothing. I held a meeting immediately with Joe and Amberly and told them the staff were "doing their own thing and to fix it to conform with policy or get a new staff."
They weren't 'tough enough'? Walking around the pool might not have the same desired effect as kneeling/lying on concrete for days/weeks on end.
Or having ones arm twisting to the breaking point.
He assures no abuse is ocurring and states that he's there 2 weeks out of the month, yet didn't know about the water situation for a month. In his mind, he may not consider the methods abusive. But when asked direct questions about them he doesn't respond.
What a fine way to abdicate responsibility for the abuse- claim that you've never 'seen' any, and when there is an undeniable incident (injury that can't be hidden); claim it is the fault of the staff.... and will be fixed, or was fixed.
This circular argument never ends because when there is actually a person to confront they deny their methods, even ones they have previously admitted to publicly. Rather than respond to direct question, they punt, and start posting/ flooding the forum with letters from program parents.
I've been following this and I'd like to know why the parent was told her son had a reaction to a tomato, what meds the kids are being given without parental consent, and all the other direct questions that have been avoided.
Didn't I read that there is a surviellence camera in OP? Wouldn't you like to see past footage? Perhaps they should provide live coverage of OP at ther website so parents/public can tune in anytime 24/7 to see who is in OP and how long they stay and how they are treated while there.
Then they could brag to the world... Our program is successful and here's one way we do it. Real transparency.
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I'm really tired of these program people indicating that the kids are manipulating. If you want to really prove your case - install constant video survailance so you can prove to all of us that YOU ARE TELLING THE TRUTH. When dozens of former PATIENTS complain of the same maltreatment - it's hard to believe you over them. A picture speaks louder than words. Or, are you afraid of installing them. It could back up your claims and it could prevent child abuse and the he said she said problem where the HE is a staff member and the SHE is a "manipulative" student. Most pediatric units have installed them to protect both patient and staff. I suggest that you do the same. The California Youth Authority has them and we recently saw for ourselves staff beating and kicking juveniles in the head while another staff member tried to get them out of cameras way.
I also suggest that you allow the kids to have un-monitored communication with parents. I know for a fact that you send parents letters warning them from day one that their kids may LIE about the program. You essentially manipulate the parents from day one. They also become re-programed along with their children. I believe that human beings arrive on this Earth wanting to know absolutely everything, and the best thing we can do as parents is to get out of the way -- just be there to let them know what opportunities are there
-- Dorothy Werner, media liaison for the National Homeschool Association
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Anon,
You sound so foolish. Brainwashed almost.
Whole and healthy families is a crock of Program crap.How can you justify healthyand whole, with abusive sexual predators on staff? When Program administrators know of such behavior and CHOOSE to not address the concerns?
How does one explain the sick sick sick concept of the exit plan promoted by the program and other program parents at the support groups? Healthy? Abandonment is what I call it.
"Our kids will thank us some day." I dont think so. They will never forgive us for not believing when the letters home had family code words begging for help..May God forgive me for trusting the program and its lying staff.
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As for BuzzKill, Karen, she honestly believes what her son told her. Sad.
Programmed Parent, do you even realize how sick you sound?
Why should a parent believe a bunch of money-hungry, sadistic strangers over THEIR OWN CHILD???
This is so sick...
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Deb asks:
Didn't I read that there is a surviellence camera in OP?
I have heard this about Tranquility Bay - but none of the others.
Live feed to the net might help stop abuse. . . but as it is - with Jay and co being the only ones watching - I don't hold much confidence the camera is stopping anything. In fact, I fear it may be there for the entertainment of the audience.
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Buzzkill - don't you refer kids to a competing troubled teen help company?
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On 2004-11-13 11:00:00, Anonymous wrote:
" As for BuzzKill, Karen, she honestly believes what her son told her. Sad.
Programmed Parent, do you even realize how sick you sound?
Why should a parent believe a bunch of money-hungry, sadistic strangers over THEIR OWN CHILD???
This is so sick... "
Do most parents believe when their child telling them they are being abused or starved considering the reasons they are there in the first place? No. Most will have already talked with many of the former students that know that is the standard stuff in the letters when they first arrive. Did Buzzkill's kid lose weight because he refused to eat and then said he wasn't being fed? Smart kid! It worked.
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//Did Buzzkill's kid lose weight because he refused to eat and then said he wasn't being fed? Smart kid! It worked//
Idiot anon; my kid ate everything he could get his hands on; just like all the lower level kids.
I pulled him because you program clones gave me the creeps and I had come to realize he *might* be telling the truth about the diet and overcrowding and extremely poor educational experience. And he was. It was much later I learned about the abuse and gross neglect - and that is all true as well. Every kid I have spoken to has confirmed it - even the ones who think the program saved them.
Other idiot anon - No.
All you idiot anons - this aint about me.
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Why aren't the lower level kids in a wwasp program allowed to speak with one another? Why must they never have a Normal conversation?
Why aren't the parents told their kid will not be allowed to talk to anyone? Or to look around in a normal way? Or to pet the dog?
What up with that?
::bandit::
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Define a normal conversation. Talking to each other about how much they liked taking drugs, hating their parents or other stuff that would keep them stuck in their old choices is not a normal conversation. They can freely talk to upper levels cuz the upper levels won't listen to their poor me crap.
Where did you get this info? Kids can look around in a normal way, just not during class. Not looking at the opposite sex is to teach some self control, not that they get much of chance of that anyway since the boys are girls are not in the same dorms or have much interaction anyways.
Buzzkill - did you ever have your son medically checked for his weight loss? Why do the kids gain weight when they are eating three healthy meals a day and your son lost weight? Doesn't make sense unless his metabolism is out of the ordinary.
No I didn't have experience with Dundee, but another WWASPS school, so what I said pertains to them, however, all of the schools have parents on campus everyday. There are also professionals on campus everyday. Would they ALL risk losing their license to practice by not reporting abuse?
There were many parents on campus when DUndee was raided.
Narvin, please provide some links to the man who came in there and refused to let the staff intervene in the destruction of your property by the kids he told could do as they pleased.
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You don't know what your talking about. I know you think you do, but you don't.
WWASP students on the lower levels are not allowed to talk to anyone at all except in a very limited way for very limited reasons. May I sit; May I stand; That kind of thing. Nothing that resembles normal conversation on any subject at all. Its a fact. I am just asking Why.
When moving from one local to another, they are forbidden to look to the right, or left, or up at the sky. Its face forward and eyes on the ground at all times. This is well documented; often witnessed. Its a fact. I am just asking Why.
You need to ask yourself why is it you are so ignorant of these very basic program facts and tactics.
I will cut you some slack and assume you are not aware of the history of this thread or how common the weight loss is for the BOYs on lower levels. The *Boys* universally complain of weight loss. It was by no means just my son. The problem is, you see, this notion you have about 3 good meals a day is make believe. At least for the lower levels kids. And this is just with regard to the quantity of food. There are common descriptions of the quality of the food being very poor. Really, Very poor. Even so, the kids eat it. Right down to the last bite, because they are SO hungry.
The girls just as commonly complain of weight gain.
I have wondered why, but no explanation has been given.
You need to catch up with your reading before trying to comment again. Repetition becomes tiresome.
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girl from Cross Creek:
The staff was untrained and uneducated to work in that type of environment. I have found out that my old therapist molested a girl in my group shortly after I left. I remember he always blurred the lines of our relationship, but luckily he didn't cross those lines with me. Not to mention the diet, I gained 60lbs from the unhealthy food, and I should now I worked in the kitchen with Andy. Bless his heart he did the best he could with the budjet they gave him. Most of the staff had control issues and enjoyed torturing the kids.
Boy from Casa:
While makeing my bed I dropped something and someone picked it up for me, I replied "thank you" to him nothing more... first cat-3 of the day, I think to myself as im sitting in worksheet its okay no biggie just work off this time my 50 points for the week are gone but hey I can get them back right? Then while eating my daily breakfest of raisin bran with raisins hard as rocks someone offers me a napkin I shake my head nothanks, well the worksheet father saw me and added on another 15 points in worksheet for "non-verbal communication" so now im pretty mad so I just finish my breakfest and im standing in line well an upper level comes by thinking hes all big and bad and power happy decides to give me a cat-2 for not having my feet together... he told me I should be greatful I didnt get 2 cat-2's for looking out of line.
(It gets worse)
They then take me up to R&R aka intervention. they told me to sit in formation. which is with your nose about an inch from the wall your back completely straight and your arms behind your back. I refused to do this and asked if I could just simply sit and have some time to cool off. So they decide .. hrmm well hey if he wont sit in formation let pull his arm behind his back until his wrist touches the back of his head.. then he should ! so they sit there pulling my arm back until it feels like its just going to pop off when that didnt work they decide well on of us hold his arms behind his back while the other punches him in the stomach and chest area about 20 minutes of this and im still refuseing to sit so they decide to take my dried up cuts on my hand from punching the windows and they twist them and make them bigger opening them all up again.. well I guess I made them mad by getting blood all over them so they decide to just kick me while I lay there for a couple minutes then for the rest of the day I decided it best that I sit in formation. well I was in intervention for about 2 months where everyday all I would think about is all the ways I could kill myself.
(and)
I faked my way all the way to level 5. it was ridiculous. I was just saying everything they wanted to hear acting exactly how they wanted me to. at pc1 I was looking my parents in the face telling them "Im so so sorry ! I love you guys so much" while thinking in my head you fucking pricks I cant believe youd put me in this shithole and try to tell me its just as hard for you to send me here as it is for me to be here when you are the ones eating your nice warm meals at night sleeping in your warm beds having the privledge of flushing your toilet paper down the toilet after it wipes your ass. god I want to murder you both right here right now... I finally got pulled a few days after christmas because of how "good" I was doing in the program. The first thing I did after I got out was tried all the new drugs and drug combinations the other kids in there told me about robbed houses did basically whatever I felt like. Well now I am in college clean and sober have a nice job and apartment of my own and im doing real good and its NO THANKS TO CASA that place is terrible.
(also)
there was so many things that they could of done to make that facility a good place that would actually help teens but it would of costed them money and that place is just a BUSINESS its just another business trying to make a profit so everything they tell you is gonna sound good cause they are trying to make money. the fathers there are mexicans hired off the street with no experience with kids or psychology or anything just random people who apply. the school system is ridiculous I got so many credits there but didnt learn anything and had to take all those classes over again so I could actually learn whats going on. it pisses me off so bad when people say stuff like " Yes, if you were a pain maybe you were restrained, etc. But if you followed the rules all was well. Get used to rules!!! They're every where. But all this whining. Grow up!! " I mean honestly youve never been there you dont know what you are talking about. I told my parents the EXACT same thing your daughter told you, you know why ? Cause I didnt wanna get sent back. Once I was sent there it was like I had to hide all my feelings and thoughts cause I could be punished for them. I wouldnt dare tell my parents how I really felt about the place. What little relationship I had with my parents was completely destroyed when i was sent there and now they think we have this huge good trusting relationship ... but its all fake.. they dont have a clue whats going on in my head. Its turned me into some sort of freak.
Girl from Casa:
i was at casa by the sea for 3 months. it was the 3 worst months of my life, i would never recomend for anybody to go there. the websites they have for the school are totally bogus and dont represent the true school, and what its all about. i have been out for 4 and a half months and i still cry when thinking about it b/c it was such a shitty experience. the seminars involve brainwashing, they try to con your parents into getting you to stay longer so they can get more money out of them, *the food sucks and makes you gain massive weight, i gained 25-30 lbs in 3 months. * they phsyically, mentally, and sexually abuse the kids sent there. it is a horrible place.
Girl from Casa:
When I got to Casa they made me strip in front of them which is understandable seeing as how they don't want drugs in the facility, however it should have been in front of all females not 2 females and 2 males.
(and)
Every one has to have permission to talk, stand up, sit down, eat, and everything else.
(and)
We would have a total of 5 minutes to get our food and to sit down and eat it. *Half of the time the food had hair in it, or even a couple times I found bugs. The kitchen was extremely unsanitary and that was just from what I could see at the window.* Some of the guys would even masturbate into the coolaid (this coming from one of the guys that said he played a part in it). My parents didn't have a clue about what went on there because whenever I would write to them about it "misteriously" my mail didn't get sent.
(and)
Not only did my parents not receive my letters stating what went on in the "program" I got punished for manipulation. I was smacked several times, the "mamas" (female staff) would pull my hair and they would threaten us.
Boy from Casa:
I went to Casa by the Sea and was there for four months. It was shut down while I was there. You may think that we are all a bunch of angry kids, but really you don't know anything so it's pretty easy for you to say that. We all went though hell and back being there. I was beat by a group of straff members for clicking a pen.
*I was fed not even enough food to fill a 3 year old. I went to Casa weighing 240. I was a football player. I came out weighing 210 in just 4 months. *
When you use the bathroom you have to wipe and put the TP in a bucket next to the toilet, thats if you have TP. A good amount of the time you didn't. Most of the staff were gang members and abused drugs which they would some times try to trade to kids for watches that they stole.
I am now home and I looked at some of the letters my mom got from me and they had alot missing.
I was beat very badly on 3 different days. My jaw is now completely broken and I have to have it re-broken and fixed in surgery.
I went through HELL for 121 days more than you will go through in your life. So please don't call us angry kids. Thank you for listening.
boy from cross creek and others:
I was in four WWASP programs over three consecutive years. Brightway, Spring Creek Lodge, Paradise Cove, and Red Rock Academy. I went through some of the worst abuses ever, like being beaten, pepper sprayed, *starved*, hog tied and left in a wooden closet for two days.
I'll look around for some more later. I think it might be worthwhile to compile student statments according to subject. . .
[ This Message was edited by: BuzzKill on 2004-11-13 19:32 ]
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Buzz Kill - Four months makes you an expert? I agree you're an expert at finding trash on the internet and trying to brainwash others by posting hearsay. You and the whole lot that refer to other programs need to actually get out there and enjoy life. ::bump::
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How about scores of kids going for 20+ months (proven fact) on level two or lower? Is that your idea of a program that is working? I call that torture and bullshit that needs to stop. Anon, put the coolaid down, wake up and smell the coffee. :eek:
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Idiot anon rears its head again with:
Buzz Kill - Four months makes you an expert? I agree you're an expert at finding trash on the internet and trying to brainwash others by posting hearsay. You and the whole lot that refer to other programs need to actually get out there and enjoy life.
When did I claim to be an expert?
But I am aware.
How 'bout you?
That is not internet trash; and it rather steams me that you would dare call it trash; That is the testimony of wwasp students trying to get the truth out; trying to alleviate some of the pain; trying to do something to help stop the nightmare.
God bless them every one.
Brainwashing is an issue here. In my opinion, it is THE issue. However, what I'm doing is trying to help the victims realize they are in fact victims, so they can once again begin to think for themselves.
Use the common sense God gave you. Research mind control.
Think!
By the way - once again - I do not refer to other programs. Never have. This persistent lie is just your way of trying to dismiss my credibility by casting a slur upon my motives. :roll:
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I am a parent that had a child in the program and have talked personally with at least 50 "students" that were in a WWASPS facility. Many of them were graduates. I don't post much but this is a very important topic. Probably the most important one. People calling our children and other young adults liars!
For the parents (or WWASPS PR department)that are saying that the quotes that Buzz Kill has posted are grabbed from the internet, you are wrong. These are from sworn statements. There are many of these statements taken from former "students" that are out there for you to read. These young adults have nothing to gain by telling their story except to be heard and save others from going through what they went through. They are out of the hands of WWASPS and want all to hear what happened to them. Many don't speak until they are 18 and can't be thrown back to these facilities by their "kool-aid drinking" parents.
I think that a new thread should be started with only statements from former "students" and/or parents that have talked with them with direct quotes. Then all of you can read them and sit back in judgement. For those of you that don't want to hear the truth about what happened to them, all you can do is call them liars. You can't even comment on what they say. It was their experience and that is that. "My experience of this is...." Sound familiar from your seminars? Pretty sad.
If you really are a parent and not someone that is trying to defend people like Narvin, just sit back and listen. There are many of us out there that talk with these young adults about their experiences. They need to be heard. Many of them can't talk with their parents because they don't believe them or they are so guilty for sending them, that they can't admit it. We admitted we made a mistake putting our children in the hands of liars and we are working side by side with them to let them be heard.
My child and many others that were in the hands of Narvin have been directed to this thread. They read what he writes and because they are free now, would like to say...He is the liar!!
Many wrote sworn statments after Dundee closed and Narvin was arrested so that their story could be told to the authorities. Strange that the only ones that were heard after the closing were the ones that Narvin hand picked.( One of which, a graduate from Dundee, today is back on the streets selling drugs) Many students were willing to go back down to Costa Rica and tell their story. They are still waiting. Strange how things get shoved under the rug in countries like this. Now he is back, trying to clear the air so that he can reopen this facility.
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/These are from sworn statements. /
I don't want this misunderstood - there are Lots of sworn statements and I may (or others might) quote from them; But what I posted last night was not from the sworn statements. They are from general public posts on forums about the program.
This in no way detracts from their truth or their power.
There is a place and a time for everything. I don't happen to consider Fornits a place that requires sworn to testimony. A quick scan of the forums was enough to prove the point I was trying to make so thats all I did. I may do more later.
I do understand why you might think the quotes are from the sworn testimony as they are very much the same. Thats the point, really.
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Sworn statements are credible? What ever happened to that so-called (forever pending) lawsuit against WWASPS? What's it been, two years now? Sworn testimony means nothing without a jury to decide on fact or fiction.
Buzz Kill, are you really saying that you've never sung the praises of your program of choice? Lots of allegations against them.
Any teen in any Program that doesn't want to be there will say what they will to get back to their friends and former life. Do parents send their child to a program for good behavior and honesty?
I agree that all allegations need to be thoroughly checked out because shit happens.
The brainwashing is occurring by coercing, even graduates, into thinking that they've been abused, even when they didn't think so before.
I'm not defending Narvin. He doesn't need defending.
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I have not Referred to any program.
I have, when the subject came up, talked about the differences between the two programs I have had personal experience with.
This is not referring.
Referring implies monetary gain; which implies a tainted motive.
This does not apply to my situation or anything I have ever done.
The law suite has been in the process of negotiations. Its not something I or anyone can plaster on a public forum. I do believe it will be more public in the days ahead. We must wait and see.
Others cases have been filed and might be of interest as well, in the days ahead.
Testimony has been given in court and a jury did make a finding. It did not go well for your friends. I hope, in the days ahead, the transcripts will be posted and available for your review. I hope you will review them. Mean while, you might want to read my observation of the trial:
http://isaccorp.org/wwasps/kbobservations.pdf (http://isaccorp.org/wwasps/kbobservations.pdf)
I agree Narvin doesn't need defending. He needs convicting. And he's not alone. But of corse, until it happens, this is only my opinion.
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***Any teen in any Program that doesn't want to be there will say what they will to get back to their friends and former life. Do parents send their child to a program for good behavior and honesty?
While your kid might lie about smoking pot, it is doubtful that they would lie about abuse they are experiencing.
Programs do not model good behavior and honesty. They will say anything (lie) to keep a kid, and their parents money, coming in. When it comes to kids and abuse, best to err on the side of caution. Parents are told to disregard their kids complaints, phone calls and mail are monitored, kids are not allow access to a phone.... which leaves them extremely vulnerable to abuse.
***I agree that all allegations need to be thoroughly checked out because shit happens.
'Shit happens' too often in this industry. Too many deaths, injuries, mental raping, skewing of reality.
***The brainwashing is occurring by coercing, even graduates, into thinking that they've been abused, even when they didn't think so before.
I disagree. The biggest coercion in the idustry is that of the program conditioning a kid (and their parents) to believe that the program's austere, experimental, and/or abusive 'treatment' is normal and beneficial.
And until such time that the methods of any given program are brought into the light for public scrutiny, parents are well advised to steer clear. At a minimum- ask the hard questions, specific questions, and demand unmonitored contact with their child. If they don't, and collude with the program methods, they are equally guilty for the damages their child endures.
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Buzz you said:
"Referring implies monetary gain; which implies a tainted motive.
This does not apply to my situation or anything I have ever done."
Doesn't or hasn't your child worked for the "other" program.
And you said:
The law suite has been in the process of negotiations."
How do you advocate negotiating child abuse?
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Not that its any of your business . . .
My son helped out for a summer and enjoyed his time doing so. Other than my gratitude that he had a chance to take part in something worthwhile and enjoyable - it had nothing to do with me.
More to the point - it has nothing to do with this thread - in which Narvin has made an appearance and suggested he would answer questions. I notice he has disappeared tho. . .
Anyway, whatever I might have to say about the "other" program; it has nothing what-so-ever to do with The Program, and what I might have to say about IT.
As for the legal stuff; Surely you realize, who ever you are, that I have nothing to do with it. No input. My wishes and opinions mean nothing to the legal eagles. Nothing at all. I'm only explaining what little I can, about what little I know. Its not as if I have any say in it; so advocating isn't something I can do; one way or the other. My preference would be to get it filed and get it to the press and shout it from the roof tops - But they don't listen to me.
Can't imagine why. . .
Tell me anon, if you can, why is it when ever I ask a few hard questions; When ever I make a point that seems to hit home; You anons come out of the woodwork and try to make me the issue?
And Why do you think that because allegations are made against other programs; that the allegations against Yours don't matter?
Lots of dogs have fleas. Fleas are always bad; but lots of fleas are worse. Man oh Man - has your dog got fleas!
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I beleieve all of the testimonials from former WWASP students, because my own child told me of similar horrors. These programs attract pediophiles, sadists and other perverts because these children have no outlet to the world. Parents and others are gullible enough to believe that their complaints of abuse are nothing more than lies and manipulations. That's exactly what I was told when I faced a staff member and told him that my daughter had complained of horrendous abuse. He looked past me and into space and said,"she's lying, she's being manipulative." I knew then that this is what they all are programed to say.
Society in every state is a blessing, but Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
--Thomas Paine
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Boy from TB
I just found this sight and it flooded me with emotions and memories (not all bad). That's the problem...Both sides of this argument are pretty extreme...one side says it's all bad the other says it's all good... The fact is we, the "students", had to create some sort of enjoyment out of this horrible place and we did...I became very good friends with a lot of these guys and in that sense have some good memories... I also was very introspective during my time there, and that was positive...
What wasn't was the constant screaming, hitting, raw fish(it still had the freaking skin on parts of it) and the education.
I was 3 months away from completing High School when I was sent down there...3 years after I got out I finally ended up just getting my GED and have yet started college...I firmly believe I would be almost through college by now if it wasn't for that damn program. I don't exactly know how I was influenced by the program. Sometimes I think I'm tougher, sometimes I think I might be screwed up a bit...
It can be good to go to bed at night listening to one of your friends screaming as if he's dying on a fairly regular basis...It can't have helped me too much to have been placed in OP 3 times...It couldn't have been too healthy to not understand why I was somewhere I knew nothing about and not be able to ask anyone I knew about it...I don't know if any of you out there remember the Seminar in, I think June or July, of 1999 in which death metal was played and we all just started beating the crap out of each other for a good 15 minutes...that couldn't have been too good for us...
Boy from TB
TB, it was hell,. . .
i was restrained almost everyday while i was there, for dumb things like talking, swearing, refusing to do something, When we got restrained they would make us scream, twisting are arms behind are back until they touched are head, staff would take ur ankles, place them flat on the marble floor and just bounce on them, they would press your head in to the floor, it was usually 3 or more staff restraning one student . Most of time spent there i was in some small room with a bunch of other kids lying on my face on some dirty ass floor breathing in dirt. watching littl tumbleweeds of pubic hair from everybody just roll on floor. I had to sleep on a dirty used mattress in the narrow hallway, there were bugs everywhere it was gross. and the whole time u could hear other dudes just literally screaming for there mothers while being restrained.
*not enough food, we were so hungry we turned to eating bones, eating watermelon rinds and other fruit rinds, and i know i tried eating egg shells a couple of times, i lost weight there*
Boy from Dundee
I did 11 months at Dundee Ranach Academy in Costa Rica. Ive been restrained plenty of times and left with bruises. Malnutrition is a big thing there too. These programs are out for one thing and that's money. We've had everything from rapes to drug scandals between the staff and students.
Boy SCL
I personally spent over 22+ hours a day in OP or what Spring Creek Lodge (a WWASP promoted program) calls "Special Needs". I would get about 5-12 minutes to walk over to the facility next door and take a shower (if they wanted to allow me to shower that day) all while being watched by one or more staff. Its a pretty degrading experience to strip down naked and shower in front of grown men on a daily basis. I wasnt a criminal, just a teen!
Student SCL
The hobbit is what Spring Creek Lodge calls "observation" which is really a small walk in closet sized room. The rooms have urine stains all over the ground and smell like someone put rubbing alcohol under your nose when you first walk in. When I was at SCL kids would spend over one month straight in "observation" leaving only for bathroom breaks and a shower, and when you showered (if they let you that day) at least one or more staff would sit there and watch you. Bathroom breaks were sometimes used as a reward for good behavior and kids would have to wait long after the first urge "to go". When I was there the "observation" kids would use a portta potty that was never emptied in time so kids would have to squat over the seat. Spring Creek Lodge (WWASP) acts like "observation" is for suicidal, or out of control teens, thats not the case. Most of the staff at SCL didn't seem to have a whole lot of patients, so if a kid got annoying or the staff didn't feel like dealing with a student, that student would be sent to "observation" for days at a time. It might not sound so bad, but imagine being 14 or 15 and being placed in these observation rooms, this cannot be healthy for a teens emotional well being. Although this was over 3 years ago that I personally witnessed this, I still hear similar stories from students just leaving. And for an organization that treats students so inhumane, I could careless when it happened, because it happened.
Boy from TB
when i was there i was in need of serious medical attention but i was called a "faker", typical. and when it got to the point where i was violently ill (yah "fakers" really roll around on the ground moaning in violent pain defecating and regergatating on themselves, would one of you self help teen help jackasses hand me my grammy please?) but really all the staff that was on duty could do was laugh and point while i begged to be taken to the hospital. that is just one example of unneeded shit that wasnt on their ciriculum that happened to me, not to mention the everyday things that were part of the program that got to you, breaking you down spiritually, mentally, and emotionally. and what about the unsanitary conditions, the unnecessary use of restraining, the cruel and unusual discipline tactis(whos the sick fuck who thinks this stuff up??), the screams and yells heard through out the "compound" daily but you could never find out what they were because "students" werent aloud to communicate with each other ever(summer of 97' kids know what im talking about).
Boy from TB
There was no talking; we were not allowed to speak during the daily
schedule. We lined up in our units, and the guards began to count us. The
totals were shouted into the radios to the guard who was working sickbed,
and he tallied the count. The guard working with my unit motioned for us to
head to the shower area.
Breakfast was boiled cabbage and fish. The food itself didn't depress me any
longer. I was used to it. I just wished that there had been more. There was
never enough, and I was always hungry.
There would be a few moments, maybe a minute,
when we could have a hushed conversation of sentence fragments before the
case manager came into the room.
When the unit filled up the room, we all sat around against the walls. The
guard sat outside the door, writing up his shift change report. The young
man next to me asked, through motions and whispers, if I had heard
Litho being restrained last night.
I nodded to let him know that I had heard the restraint. Another guy joined
in the conversation of grunts and gestures saying that he had heard Litho's
nose had been broken, and he was taken to the doctor in Kingston this
morning. I hadn't heard that.
The conversation ended abruptly when the guard stood up to come into the
room. He wanted to know who was talking. We were silent, waiting for him to
leave. His eyes scanned the room, moving from face to face, searching for a
hint of guilt. All of us suddenly became very interested with things on the
floor, or the back of our hands - avoiding all eye contact.
If I was careful, I could sneak a chapter from The Grapes of Wrath, but if I
were caught I would be placed in Staff Watch and on my face for a few days.
Staff Watch was the disciplinary unit of the facility. The average stay was
about one or two weeks. Inmates in Staff Watch spent the day lying on their
faces, not allowed to move. If someone were to move repeatedly without
permission, even to look up, he would be restrained.
His arms would be twisted behind his back, and his ankles ground into the
linoleum floor. This was not a restraint by definition, but more of a
cowardly beating which left no marks or bruises.
It was lunchtime. We went to the cafeteria and grabbed our plates. The guard
put the lunch audiotape on, and we sat down to eat. Lunch was a bun and
cheese. We had some powdered milk as well. The bun and cheese was my
favorite meal. I slowly nibbled on my bun, savoring every last bit of
flavor.
The sewage pipe that ran out of the facility was broken, and sewage leaked
out of the pump and under the clothesline. If a strong wind came, my clothes
would fall into the sewage. It was a risky situation.
When we were finished with our laundry, we headed back up to the classroom
for another period of school. I was able to pull off a few more pages from
the Grapes of Wrath, but the guard was looking at me suspiciously, so I put
the novel away and stared at my algebra book.
Screams broke out from Staff Watch. Someone was being restrained. Other
than one of the new guys, none of us looked up from our book. This was a
normal thing.
I stared at the pages in my book and listened to the screams. He was begging
for them to stop. I could hear them laughing. I wanted to cry, but I knew
there would be trouble if I did. I reminded myself that I was a
machine and that I was not really there. I cleared my face of any
emotion and waited for dinner.
Dinner was pork and pork, was dangerous. The day after a pork meal always
left me feeling as if I had swallowed a cup full of nails and glass. There
was never any meat in the pork, only fat and bone, and I could see the hairs
on the hide sticking up.
I ate all of it, and if I could have had more, I would have. I didn't care
about tomorrow's pain; I was hungry now.
I listened to the dinner audiotape
- A Guide for Building Healthy Workplace Relationships - and memorized a few
key points for the quiz tonight. ?It is always fashionable to wear a smile
on one's face.? I could already feel the pork in my stomach begin to cause
problems.
The evening tape was always the longest and hardest to listen to. It went on
forever, pounding its lessons into my head. I was tired, and I just wanted
to go to sleep.
When the tape was through, we wrote what we learned from each tape and
turned the paper into the guard, who would give it to the case manager
tomorrow morning. She would review my (copy/paste) and mark down in her
book: "Student is making significant progress."
We lined up back in the courtyard for evening headcount. The guards counted
us and yelled the totals into the radio to the guard working sickbed. We
went back upstairs to our rooms and into our beds. Someone in Staff Watch
began to scream. I held back the tears and reminded myself that I had become
a machine and I was not really there.
I hated to go to sleep because I always woke up again in the
morning.
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The people who hear this simply refuse to accept it could be real.
Nevermind they all tell the same "lie", and thats the first indication its NOT one. Nevermind every program has the same kind of accuastions. Nevermind that its been unchanged for YEARS.
Nevermind the ones that have closed, nevermind the successful litigations, nevermind the september closings in mexico, nevermind the Czech and Costarican closings, nevermind compassion, nevermind finding out the truth, nevermind the truth at all.
They're following their happy little lie, leading them where they have no faults, can take no blame, and do no wrong. They're marching on the road to hell, led by this stupid Industry of frauds, scammers, sadists, and sexual predators, blinded by the "good intentions" that are just meaningless spins on abuse, and not looking back, or thinking twice.
I don't believe in Jesus.
--John Lennon, British songwriter and member of "The Beatles"
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Buzz and others... This is Narvin again,as I have read some of your posts,I don?t think you guys understand the issue with Amberly and Dundee and what happened with her getting fired...She had become a real problem employee long before the two-ex students were invited to the campus inappropriately...she had shown her whole direction was about control and power and that?s why I and others referred to her as machiavellian far from what you like to represent, she consistently was doing things out of order with none of these issues having to do with the kids or their welfare?. but more to do with her own needs for control... she went on a seminar on our expense and good will the cost was over $1500 in airfare and seminar cost and then she tried to turn in over $400 per night in lodging and food saying she was entitled seeing this was ?the national average for executive stays overnight on business? we of course informed her not in our business....she hired an assistant that was highly un-necessary without any permission or consent and as a result was told she could no longer be involved with hiring anyone in the future which she ignored with the ex-students who were involved sexually with each other before she "hired " them to come on our campus without permission or consent and in direct insubordination...The 2 young adults then had an altercation that ORJDA the Costa Rican FBI in their complete investigation said didn?t include any rape but simply consensual sex between adults (they where both over 18) then as there was a fight betwixt them over some other girl involved and they got into it physically and the girl hit her head on a piece of metal and caused her to be knocked out...then It was found she need to be hospitalized and I paid it on my own account to make sure she got the help she needed and paid over $15,000 for her care which I was told by Joe would paid back by the parents but I never have been in paid back any way...Again I point out this was all of Amberly knights creation and I as the owner knew nothing of it till after the girl was in the hospital and Amberly had then disappeared and I have personally never seen or spoke to her since....then Imagine the Insult to injury when Amberly 8 months later in her letter to Pani Insinuated I some how created a sistuation where a 18 year old girl was raped on my campus like I some how condoned any of it....This was all the more frustrating in that I knew nothing of it...Amberly is a Liar and has no integrity whats so ever and was so emotionally needy that we were just hoping she would leave after we found out she was building herself up in the eyes of some the scandalous parents at the expense of the program and she continues to do so now in the press and with people who want to be manipulated here. Amberly lies as Carey has pointed out and continues to do so but for some the truth just isn?t an issue when they believe the ends justify the means.
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Narvin,
I have told you what I think about Amberly. It remains unchanged. I feel confident it is you who be the liar. Frankly, I find it impossible to seriously consider anything you say. You are the owner of Dundee ranch. You ran the show and gave the orders. What happen there, happened at your direction.
Amberly has spoken with me on many an occasion now; explained all these issues of concern; apologized; and tried to right the wrongs. You, on the other hand, have never yet answered a direct question. Never yet done a thing to rectify the fraud perpetrated upon the parents or the abuse and neglect suffered by the kids.
And so, I cast my lot with Amberly.
As for the seminar trip - again dude - get real, will ya. Yes, I expect Amberly attended the damdable seminar at wwasp's expense. I do believe Joe did as well. One of the Costa Ricans complained to my son about the unfairness of it. He had to pay for his trip - but Joe's was paid for by you. He complained about the Mormon favoritism - the Mormons didn't have to pay to attend the seminars - but the Costa Rican staff did. He was pretty irritated about it, according to my son, who thought it amusing and told me all about it.
My boy is a skilled mimic and he did a really amusing depiction of your staff member in a state over the situation. You may one day see my son on the tonight show, doing comedy all about you. I hope so. What wonderful retribution that would be.
You sir, are so full of Bull, it is amusing.
Now, Quite harping on about Amberly and answer the questions.
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You expect your employees to spend $2000 to take a seminar that you require? No way would I shell out that much dough to take a seminar my boss wanted me to take. I'd consider it training and expect all my expenses to be paid. How is that 'controlling'? Was she told before being hired that she'd be responsible for taking and paying for the seminar, or was it sprung on her at a later date- like when parents are surprised when they haven't heard from their kid in 5 or 6 months?
Do you get a kick back from RR? Are ALL staff required to take, and pay for, seminars?
It appears that you weren't there often enough to know WHAT your managers/staff were doing. Do you even call in when you're away for weeks? Why didn't Joe report what Amberley was doing in your absence?
The city water was turned off for a month, and you didn't know? Amberley hired an assistance and two teens and you didn't know? Yet, you claim that no abuse occurs at the facility? How could you possibly be able to state that as fact? What I did notice, was you deny that you personally had abused any of the kids. "Where is the kid who is saying that I abused them. It (inanimate object?) doesn't exist." That's plausible, given your long absenses and lack of contact. But, I can't say as I've heard any allegations against you personally, but rather of your staff. As a program owner you are ultimately responsibility for your staff's actions and behavior.
Why 'hope she'd leave'? If she was that big a problem, why not fire her? What were you waiting for?
The Amberley issue is of litte consequence for many, just beating a dead horse. I'd be more interested if she was here to speak for herself. Many are more concerned with your lack of oversight and the austere and abusive methods employed at your program. Who created the methods? Do you really see no harm in keeping a kid flat on their face for days/weeks? Or restraint for punishment? Or twisting, grinding limbs?
I'm sure you're also aware that contact with one's parents is considered a right, not a privlege. How do you justify 'parent as a gift'?
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Narvin, I couldn't care less about Amberly and which of you is lying. For all I know, you could *both* lie like a pair of matched rugs.
*I* care that you *admit* that you don't think it's a problem that the new kids were getting sick from the contaminated water.
That's a major public health issue, and your indifference to it shows that you definitely shouldn't be trusted caring for anyone's children or running any kind of residential facility for *anyone*.
Given your cavalier, callous indifference about the water-borne illnesses the kids were suffering, I flat don't believe you about the nutritional and caloric adequacy of the food.
I don't know Amberly, I don't want to know Amberly, and I don't much care what she says. I don't want to know you, either.
What I *do* want is Reform, Oversight, Standards, Enforcement, and Sunshine. And one of the reforms I want is a federal law that establishes a public register of "problem" institutions and their major owners or operators, domestic or abroad, and makes it, with enabling state legislation, prima facie evidence of child neglect on the part of the parent to enroll their child in a "problem" institution or one run by habitual problem owners or operators---either in their own state, or sending the child out of state, or sending the child overseas. I want there to be a presumption under the law that it is in the child's best interests to be in the custody of *any* fit adult who has the standing to bring a custody case rather than in a listed "problem" institution.
The US and state governments may not be able to shut down your overseas institutions, but they sure as hell *can* make American parents lose custody for sending their kids there---and without having to prove in court over and over again what's already been proved, and regardless of how many times you change the name over the door, make minor cosmetic changes in the program, and re-open.
I've had experience getting legislation passed before on my other issues of concern, more than once, so I know firsthand that it's possible and how it works. Which is one reason I'm a lot more legislation-focused than Ginger is---I've pursued fixing problems through that avenue before and found that it worked.
We're going to get Reform, Oversight, Standards, Enforcement, and Sunshine.
So you can start caring about clean water and good nutrition and quality care and open communication between the residents and their families *now*---or you can get out of the business---or you can wait until the legislative hammer falls.
Because it's coming. And we *can* craft legislation that effectively enforces standards against your institutions outside the states if those institutions accept US citizen minors.
We can, and we will. The kind of grassroots groundswell that leads to solid legislation is building---I can feel it, because I've been part of it, successfully, multiple times, before on other issues.
Shape up, or get out of the business, because effective legislation, with enforcement, is coming. Not within the next few months, but it's coming.
And it won't matter how much money you and yours donate to various politicians' reelection campaigns--the legislative hammer's still going to fall, and you're not going to be able to dodge enforcement anymore.
Timoclea
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Narvin,
Why are you bringing up all these old issues? Trying to make yourself look good so that you can be associated with the new and improved Dundee, Pillars of Hope? What are your motives? Why are you focusing all of your blame on Amberly. What about your puppet, Joe Atkin? Or Kenneth Wilson?
You hired Amberly for her degree in education. You wanted her to get your academic program running and to get the ?school? accredited with her credentials. Funny how all the parents thought it was already accredited before they sent their children to Costa Rica. You then promoted her to director because according to Joe, ?it looked great for the parents?. She took this position because she was disturbed at the way the kids were being treated and wanted to make things better. Joe hated this move, and even said ?I should have had that position because I am a man. You (Amberly) can just get married. I am the one that needs a career.? One of her main duties was to keep a relationship with the parents and keep them controlled. She tried to change things (as a director you should have this authority), but as she continued her demands for the welfare of the children, Narvin and Joe saw her as the enemy and accused her of wanting power and control. She often worked late into the night and hired someone for communications and intakes. Joe had an assistant, probably because he needed one. He was very often off on vacation with Narvin.
Joe and Narvin had previously hired 2 graduates to work at Dundee. The other 2 graduates in question were recommended by both Ken Kay and the seminar facilitators. It is profitable to hire graduates from the program because they know how the program works (less training) and they are also willing to work for $300 to $500 a month. When the incident happened, Amberly was not on the facility grounds. Mr. Kenneth Wilson was in charge for the weekend. He went out drinking with these 18 year olds. They came back to Dundee drunk. After an altercation, the male staff member assaulted the female staff member. He fractured her skull. Amberly came back to the facility a few days later to find that this girl had not received any medical care. Mr. Wilson, afraid of getting in trouble for taking them out drinking, claimed that she had fallen and hit her head. She was taken in for emergency brain surgery and according to the doctors, within 30 minutes of losing her life. After she had recovered enough to be able to speak again, the truth came out and confessions were then heard from the staff and students involved. Mr. Kenneth Wilson was fired for his participation only to be rehired months later at Carolina Springs Academy (where he worked before Dundee), also owned by Narvin. Narvin promised to pay all her medical bills. She still has over $10,000 that he refuses to pay.
As for how Amberly left Dundee Academy, it was her decision. When she returned to find the events happening at the facility she already had her plane ticket and was waiting for Joe to get back from his vacation in the states to tell him that she was leaving. She stayed on a few more days to give support to the female graduate and her mother after she got out of surgery.
Narvin, funny how you never mention the name of Kenneth Wilson when you talk about this event. Probably because he is still a ?trusted? employee!
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I don?t know what part of the "company paid for Amberly seminar" that some of you didn?t understand...But it wasn?t required and we offered it out of goodwill to add to her training even though she could have attended it at the school with they be given to the kids every 6 weeks...But she then proceeded to take advantage and tried to spend an additional $400 per night on food and entertainment...Buzz I gave ya the facts but you are the one who wants to believe whatever fits your agenda of my son was a victim .... Amberly is what she is and your agenda doesn?t make her Joan of Arc no matter how you try and these things are soon going to be in court for the facts to be aired in the light of day...They will speak for themselves...also to the other Amberly apologist... Amberly brought the kids on the campus and was told to get them off immediately to which she refused insubordinately to Joe then left for a weekend of sightseeing with the 2 questionable students there alone.... if Amberly is the saint you like to try to make her why was she gone after bringing 2 students on in direct insubordination leaving them in such a sistuation?finally I never agreed to pay for the girls total care and for that matter I never agreed to pay for the $15,000 but I did so after the fact after Amberly ran away after creating the sistuation to try to help?But what part of ?I am not responsiable for the actions of Amberly as she was breaking company and direct administrative orders bringing these two young adults on my campus with out my knowledge and they were adults on their own time and why would I be responsiable for them don?t you understand?...they were there without my permission and consent or even knowledge and if the mother wants more money may I suggest she tries to get it from Amberly who created the sistuation then lied about it to the world... Amberly just creates sistuation s then takes no accountability because she has none of the integrity she likes to claim and the truth is not in her that?s why her story changes every time she tells it? so Good luck
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Narvin - you're talking to a wall- from what little I've read from Buzzkill, she looks for and thrives in the darkside of life. If anyone thinks outside her view, it's wrong and bad and abusive. She has no listening skills. She will argue because it gives her the attention she isn't getting anywhere else in her life. This board and others like it are her lifeline. In fact, from other posts, you're talking to people who aren't open to listening, only to attack and find fault.
Beyond this - Narvin, what do you have in place that will be different? Get beyond the stories of the past. Today is a new day with new choices to be made.
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It seems that you try to discredit everyone and anyone who discloses derogatory information regarding WWASP programs. You are trying to dicredit Amberly because she was AN ADMINISTRATOR and AN ADULT - a highly credible sourse unlike the children you always discredit. Sadly most authorities believe you - but not when it was AN ADMINISTRATOR. So, here you are doing damage control, trying to discredit this person who was instrumental in closing down Dundee Ranch..
You have said nothing about appropriateness of keeping a teenager "on their face" for 18 months. This is something Ken Kay bragged about to a British reporter - who was not impressed. This was highly abusive and I'd like to know how WWASP defends this untherapeutic and abusive treatment. Care to explain? I heard similar techniques are used at other WWASP facilities - including hog-tying.
There have been hundreds of reports of maltreatment - to discount all of them as "lies and manipulation" defies reason. Were the government to prescribe to us our medicine and diet, our bodies would be in such keeping as our souls are now. Thus in France the emetic was once forbidden as a medicine, and the potato as an article of food. Government is just as infallible,[sic] too, when it fixes systems in physics. Galileo was sent to the Inquisition for affirming that the earth was a sphere.... It is error alone which needs the support of government. Truth can stand by itself.
Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia
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Cherish Wisdom - What is your personal experience of the WWASPS schools?
Did you read somewhere that a kid was kept on their face for 18 months or that Ken Kay bragged about that?
Hey, why don't you throw in some more figments of your imagination and say the kid had to eat bugs off the floor, or that the kid only took showers every six months, or that the kid atrophied from lack of movement or died from rats eating him/her?
Are you a science fiction writer?
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A reporter (British) wrote that somewhere. And you believe it? Lovely. Got a link to the whole article so I can get my laughs before I go do bed?
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Oh, but of course any source is automatically false unless it agrees with you.
Until the government (or preferrably a lynch mob) goes in there to regulate and provide oversight of these for-profit places, all we have to go by is investigations and reporters.
Why not FIX THAT PROBLEM so we KNOW they're okay? The introduction of a Creator has done our independence no good.
--Gore Vidal, author
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On 2004-11-15 22:25:00, Anonymous wrote:
"A reporter (British) wrote that somewhere. And you believe it? Lovely. Got a link to the whole article so I can get my laughs before I go do bed? "
Here is the Tranquility Bay article, laugh away.
Most journalists record their interviews. British libel law is the toughest in the world. You just have to prove someone said something derogatory and the onus is on the the defendant to prove it is true. There is no First Amendment. No journalist would accuse someone of child abuse in a national publication unless they could back it up.
Of course Kay could sue. But then WWASP probably wont be making that mistake again in a hurry.
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...if Amberly is the saint you like to try to make her why was she gone after bringing 2 students on in direct insubordination leaving them in such a sistuation?finally I never agreed to pay for the girls total care and for that matter I never agreed to pay for the $15,000 but I did so after the fact after Amberly ran away after creating the sistuation to try to help?But what part of ?I am not responsiable for the actions of Amberly as she was breaking company and direct administrative orders bringing these two young adults on my campus with out my knowledge and they were adults on their own time and why would I be responsiable for them don?t you understand?...they were there without my permission and consent or even knowledge.
Like it or not, you are responsible for what happens at your facility. If someone trips and falls on my property, they can sue me for damages. It doesn't sound like Amberley was responsible for what happened to the girl. Did she take her out drinking? Did she bash her head? Sounds like the responsible party in that scenario is Kenneth.... and of course, the teens. What was Kenneth's 'consequence'? What was the young man's 'consequence'? And these were graduates of the program? Out drinking and getting into fights? Which program did they graduate? How did Amberley come to know these kids, in order that she might invite them there? Why didn't Joe alert you? If it was such a major act of insubordination, why didn't Joe send them away while she was gone, and deal with the possible wrath later?
Talk about passin the buck. So, the simple question, in case you missed it... is what was Kenneth's involvement, what was his consequence, and where is he now?
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This forum and the Salem witch hunt trials have very much in common...the truth is subjective to your views and the facts don?t matter...Just as the children claimed there was adults participating in witch-craft in Salem. The self-righteous writers here along with the press grab their pitchforks and fall in line with the ignorant acting out of hearsay from highly questionable sources who are typically highly motivated to manipulate the sistuation...Its like the sweeping sunshine story...I hadn?t read that till I read it here its by a guy who told me he knew Bruce Harris very well as a friend so obviously I am critical... What unbelievable manipulative crap and anyone that would give credence to such self serving prater and salacious writing by this member of the press are themselves deserving of the propaganda that is spewed here (the kids always had a bottle of water with there personal name on it, in their possession and they were to keep it with them always and even got consequences if they forgot it so to try to say we were condoning some girl not getting water is ludicrous)... again "I don?t have a life so I will save something...Kids according to this reporter are being abused so they must be and lets burn their houses and hang-um high from the nearest tree"...It doesn?t matter if there was actual abuse or not or if the truth is radically different then what is represented because, "the cause of saving abused kids is good" and I had it tough as a kid therefore it must be true so the ends must justify the means. It doesn?t matter that 95 good people lost their jobs and their reputations and lives defamed and slandered all over the world and 200 kids were robbed of a great experience that was changing their lives for the better...History is complete with situations such as this and in time the truth will show this to be the case that fruits are the only means that we can judge such situations long term...false allegations of people like Sue Flowers (Denied by her own daughter to the judge) was made trying to get rights she had legally lost in the U.S by manipulating illegally the porbesieto system of Costa Rica...that Bruce Harris was nothing about kids but everything about getting publicity for a cause that he claimed to espouse all the while participating in the very deeds he claimed to protect minors from (he has now been arrested for child prostitution with a boy in Honduras)
Mr. Vargas is no longer even a tempory fiscal and is an embarrassment and stands for everything bad in Latin American governmental abuse of power and will soon be facing such charges. Finally there is Amberly who changes her story as often as Imelda Marcos did shoes. Like those shoes her story is changed to match the outfit she wears.
The players will continue to be exposed as for what they are and did and I will continue to tell the truth to anyone who will listen...The facts about the truth here isn?t quite as salacious as the accusers version but that?s only because it doesn?t sell in the Media quite as well. Who wants to hear about a dispute with an emotionally unstable employee who was mistakenly given a high position that gave her some measure of credibility that she never deserved or earned by her own admission. When they can read or hear about the staff and "the evil owner" who sat up nights devising ways to supposedly abuse kids...Again the logic here is so flawed its almost laughable...if I was just this greedy guy "why would I abuse the very source of my income and create the demise of my own school and thus income I had worked so hard to create."
The facts are I never did and there is over 100 test per staff in each of the staffs personnel files that was mandated by myself in nightly training to insure the staff was treating the kids with respect and proper policy and procedure accepted and used in every state in the union in reference to the accepted guidelines of the care of Minors. The files are all there and are open for all to see. I will continue to say as I did almost 2 years ago the truth will slowly be reveled and the players will all be seen for who and what they are.
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Narvin,
Why won't you address the questionable acts of your employee, Kenneth Wilson? A man with alot of responsibility in your company. A man that works with teens yet takes them out drinking. A man who hid his wrongs about this situation and almost cost an 18 year old graduate of WWASPS her life. A man that lied about what happened to her so that he wouldn't get caught. A man that is now still working with teens and making them accountable for their actions.
An employer is responsible for all their employees. You hired them! Stand up and be accountable! You can't just make money in a business, you also have to take responsibility for their actions. Oh, forgot, all your corporations are Limited Liability Corps., no personal liability!
You drill into the kids heads that they are not victims. Practice what you preach and stop blaming others for your actions.
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Narvin,
You've still not answered a single question put to you.
Know matter how much to wish to, you can't lay the weight and blame for what wwasp is and does on Amberly's back.
I feel compelled to point out; once again, all points and questions have been ignored and you have attempted to make others the issue.
And by the by - I can vouch for the accuracy of the poster's account of the grad's assault/ rape and Amberly's resignation. I was still involved with Dundee and still on the BBS when all that was happening. I remember the mom's postings, and the replies.
I knew well before this event that Amberly was resigning. I and others were aware she stayed on past her expected final day, only to be of help and assistance. I am aware you "fired" her long after she had left your employment and was already working elsewhere. I recall the Mom's upset that her daughter had been denied medical care b/c of Kenny's actions. I recall it was Amberly, who upon her return from her week end off, and seeing the girl's condition, insisted she get to a hospital. I remember how it went down. I am not saying Amberly is Joan of Arch - but I do think she saved this girls life. And it is a very legitimate question to ask Where you and why didn't you do something?
The idiot anon who says I won't listen; and I can't be swayed is wrong. I am very able and willing to change my mind if I feel I have been mistaken. After all, I once believed and argued wwasp was a good program. I have since heard many arguments to the contrary; and I have found them credible; and I have changed my mind as a result.
I believe these kids. I find the persistence, consistency and quantity of the accounts of abuse and neglect very credible. I think anyone who can ignore this is lacking ability to think rationally and independently; or has a powerful monetary motive to look away.
Really Narvin, I'll listen, if you'll get real and honest and answer the questions asked of you.
But this Bitchen and Moanin and Whinen about how you've been wronged is just a waste of space.
:???: :???:
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You say that Amberly was not qualified for her position. Please let us know what Joe Atkin's resume reads that he was qualified to be in his position. He was not just the accountant, he was Director of this facility at times.
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You of all people should not try and discredit Bruce Harris. His credentials and what he has done for Latin America are amazing. He made a mistake, held himself accountable and took the consaquences for his actions.
You on the other hand, went to Costa Rica, had a prostitute named Flory, divorced your wife and kids in Utah, and married her!
Be careful of your glass house. Maybe you should just drop the stones that you are throwing!
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Narvin, you talk about water bottles. We carried water bottles with us most of the time at Dundee. They were discusting. We were in the jungle where bacteria grows quickly. We had the same water bottles for weeks. When a staff returned from outside of Dundee and happen to be carrying a water bottle we eyed it and wondered who would get it. When we went to well water, we would just fill these gross empty bottles with that water. They were never washed in boiling water. No wonder we all got sick. I know that you never carried the same water bottle for weeks.
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Its like the sweeping sunshine story...I hadn?t read that till I read it here its by a guy who told me he knew Bruce Harris very well as a friend so obviously I am critical... What unbelievable manipulative crap and anyone that would give credence to such self serving prater and salacious writing by this member of the press are themselves deserving of the propaganda that is spewed here (the kids always had a bottle of water with there personal name on it, in their possession and they were to keep it with them always and even got consequences if they forgot it so to try to say we were condoning some girl not getting water is ludicrous
What reporter are you talking about here in this quote? Also, I witnessed the girls standing in one spot amimlessly sweeping back and forth with their brooms. They were not cleaning the sidewalks. And, there was not one bottle of water anywhere in sight. And, a girl did ask for water and none was given.
Now if you are talking about some other reporter, other than Varney, and some other sweeping incident, then no response is necessary. But if you are talking about the incident I witnessed...then let me say, I was there Narvin, and you weren't.
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On 2004-11-15 22:13:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Cherish Wisdom - What is your personal experience of the WWASPS schools?
Did you read somewhere that a kid was kept on their face for 18 months or that Ken Kay bragged about that?
Hey, why don't you throw in some more figments of your imagination and say the kid had to eat bugs off the floor, or that the kid only took showers every six months, or that the kid atrophied from lack of movement or died from rats eating him/her?
Are you a science fiction writer? "
Nice jab. *I'm* a science fiction writer. It pays the bills. It gives people recreation for their money.
The jab can't distract from the *fact* that Narvin admitted that he did not take steps to ensure the water at Dundee was not contaminated with local fecal coliform bacteria, even though he knew third world countries have water quality problems and *chose* to locate in a third world country and have kids brought there against their will.
Narvin thought it was perfectly okay to admit to this and that it wasn't a problem because, "It was mostly just the new kids who got sick."
Even if you believe Narvin is an absolute paragon of truth, that's child neglect and he's condemned out of his own mouth.
Where there's child neglect he admits to, any reasonable person has to believe that there are probably things that he is "spinning" to sound better for him---that probably where his account differs just a big from the allegations, at least some of those allegations are true.
Particularly, he says he "ate the same food the kids ate"----well, there are questions of *how much* the kids on the various levels got, and what supplements or fresh stuff Narvin and other staff got that the kids didn't, and whether all these kids with vomiting and diarhea from the contaminated water (and food prepared with that water) were actually absorbing enough nutrition before they *lost* that food to not be malnourished.
Does *anyone* believe that there wasn't a lower level kid there who would *gladly* have traded his own plate of dinner for Narvin's? If you do, I can offer you a really great deal: there's this bridge, see, and....
But regardless of the food issue, the water issue is a slam dunk, and it's *very* telling that Narvin didn't and doesn't think sick kids is a problem.
It's horrible, it's callous, it's neglectful.
Would you trust this man to raise a puppy? I wouldn't.
Timoclea
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***The facts are I never did and there is over 100 test per staff in each of the staffs personnel files that was mandated by myself in nightly training to insure the staff was treating the kids with respect and proper policy and procedure accepted and used in every state in the union in reference to the accepted guidelines of the care of Minors.
Are people to assume that the 'success' of your program is incumbent of denying the following basic needs and rights- form St of Utah Core Rules- which are extremely lax to begin with.
If not, then how do you justify it?
2. A minimum of sixty square feet per consumer shall be provided in a multiple occupant bedroom. Storage space will not be counted.
7. Consumers shall be allowed to decorate and personalize bedrooms with respect for other residents and property.
3. Each bathroom shall be properly equipped with toilet paper, towels, soap, and other items required for personal hygiene.
5. Bathrooms shall meet a minimum ratio of one toilet, one lavatory, and one tub or shower for each six residents.
A. One staff shall be responsible for food service. If this person is not a professionally qualified dietitian, regularly scheduled consultation with a professionally qualified dietitian shall be obtained. Meals served shall be from dietitian approved menus.
5. to ensure that the program has adequate staffing as identified on the organizational chart,
6. to ensure that the program has general liability insurance, professional liability insurance as appropriate, vehicle insurance for transport of consumers, and fire insurance, and
C. No management person shall authorize or use, and no staff member shall use, any method designed to humiliate or frighten a consumer.
D. No management person shall authorize or use, and no staff member shall use nor permit the use of physical restraint with the exception of passive physical restraint. Passive physical restraint shall be used only as a temporary means of physical containment to protect the consumer, other persons, or property from harm. Passive physical restraint shall not be associated with punishment in any way.
a. Time-out or seclusion is only used when a child's behavior is disruptive to the child's ability to learn to participate appropriately, or to function appropriately with other children or the activity. It shall not be used for punishment or as a substitute for other developmentally appropriate positive methods of behavior management.
c. If a child is placed in time out or seclusion more than twice in any twenty-four hour period, a review is conducted by the clinical professional to determine the suitability of the child remaining in the program.
d. Any one time-out or seclusion shall not exceed 4 hours in duration.
8. the right to be treated with dignity,
9. the right to communicate by telephone or in writing with family, attorney, physician, clergyman, and counselor or case manager except when contraindicated by the licensed clinical professional,
13. statement of maximum sanctions and consequences, reviewed and approved by the Office of Licensing.
The program shall have policies and procedures designed to prevent or control infectious and communicable diseases in the facility in accordance with local, state and federal health standards.
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***The facts are I never did and there is over 100 test per staff in each of the staffs personnel files that was mandated by myself in nightly training to insure the staff was treating the kids with respect and proper policy and procedure accepted and used in every state in the union in reference to the accepted guidelines of the care of Minors.
Just because someone can answer the same multiple choice questions on rules in your handbook day after day does not mean that they are properly trained. The tests are a farce, and your employees know it. For example, Mr. Wilson could have written on a test that it was against the "rules" to hide kids in the woods in South Carolina when the state came to inspect claims of overcrowding, but he still followed orders to do it, and laughed about it later.
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On 2004-11-14 08:02:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I am a parent that had a child in the program and have talked personally with at least 50 "students" that were in a WWASPS facility. Many of them were graduates. I don't post much but this is a very important topic. Probably the most important one. People calling our children and other young adults liars!
For the parents (or WWASPS PR department)that are saying that the quotes that Buzz Kill has posted are grabbed from the internet, you are wrong. These are from sworn statements. There are many of these statements taken from former "students" that are out there for you to read. These young adults have nothing to gain by telling their story except to be heard and save others from going through what they went through. They are out of the hands of WWASPS and want all to hear what happened to them. Many don't speak until they are 18 and can't be thrown back to these facilities by their "kool-aid drinking" parents.
I think that a new thread should be started with only statements from former "students" and/or parents that have talked with them with direct quotes. Then all of you can read them and sit back in judgement. For those of you that don't want to hear the truth about what happened to them, all you can do is call them liars. You can't even comment on what they say. It was their experience and that is that. "My experience of this is...." Sound familiar from your seminars? Pretty sad.
If you really are a parent and not someone that is trying to defend people like Narvin, just sit back and listen. There are many of us out there that talk with these young adults about their experiences. They need to be heard. Many of them can't talk with their parents because they don't believe them or they are so guilty for sending them, that they can't admit it. We admitted we made a mistake putting our children in the hands of liars and we are working side by side with them to let them be heard.
My child and many others that were in the hands of Narvin have been directed to this thread. They read what he writes and because they are free now, would like to say...He is the liar!!
Many wrote sworn statments after Dundee closed and Narvin was arrested so that their story could be told to the authorities. Strange that the only ones that were heard after the closing were the ones that Narvin hand picked.( One of which, a graduate from Dundee, today is back on the streets selling drugs) Many students were willing to go back down to Costa Rica and tell their story. They are still waiting. Strange how things get shoved under the rug in countries like this. Now he is back, trying to clear the air so that he can reopen this facility. "
Only 50? And of those 50, how many of them admitted to destroying property while the staff had to watch? How many of the 50 were sent to Dundee for being honest? Go back down to Costa Rica to tell their story? You bet they will, they have to keep up the lie for mom and dad.
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Timoclea - Congrats on your book.
I may have missed it, but were you a teen in a program? Did you have a teen in a program? Do you have any real first hand experience with programs, including WWASPS?
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Again, you are saying that all of these teens are liars. Don't forget your glass house!
Narvin, please answer the questions that have been addressed to you in this thread. If you are willing to make statements and call others liars, at least answer questions directed to you.
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How many had to watch while the staff destroyed their peers?
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On 2004-11-16 21:05:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Timoclea - Congrats on your book.
I may have missed it, but were you a teen in a program? Did you have a teen in a program? Do you have any real first hand experience with programs, including WWASPS?
"
I have secondhand experience with the programs---I found out about them when a well-known female SF fan who had been going to cons for years and a *lot* of people, including a lot of adults, knew well got shipped off to ASR in MA for trivial reasons.
My concern is as someone with a major mental illness, with a lot of family with that or related illnesses, and someone familiar with the history of mental health care, that children with major mental illnesses are getting inappropriate, ineffective, and frequently harmful "care".
That's not just my personal assessment, that's the assessment of the National Institutes of Mental Health.
Because it *could* have happened to me, and could happen to any member of the next generation of my extended family, it behooves me to do something about cleaning up the problem now.
Also, it could happen to any of our teenage fen in the SFF fandom community----because SFF fen have a higher incidence of bipolar disorder and related illnesses. They're disproportionately smart and creative, so they have a disproportionate concentration of the associated problems.
The existence of this social problem---ineffective, inappropriate, frequently harmful "treatments"---potentially affects my entire family, and already has affected our community of friends.
I think it's fair to say that all this girl's friends in fandom are still hopping mad that something like this could happen in the United States. She's out now, and managed to avoid being turned into a brain-numbed zombie, but we're *still* mad as hell over it.
It's not just about her. We recognize that our budding writers and artists and fans are often "different" sorts of people, and that this could have happened to any of *us* as kids, and that our entire next generation of authors and artists and fans is vulnerable to terrible damage and loss of what should be some of the best years of their life to this phenomenon.
Parents used to be able to force "different" children to conform by forcing them into arranged marriages or confining them in convents or monasteries. It was a huge leap forward for individual rights when parents no longer had those options---the special and unique were able to grow up and blossom without being forcibly stifled.
This industry is a threat to that, and those of us familiar with history recognize just how much of a threat it is.
We're mad as hell, and we're not likely to "move on" and forget about this any time soon.
We want changes in the laws and enforcement so that what happened to our friend just can't happen anymore.
Timoclea
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What's ASR and SFF?
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To the annon who indicated they they did not believe that WWASP administrator Ken Kay bragged about keeping a child on their face for 18 months - here is the excerpt from the article by the British reporter who had been granted a rare interview and tour of Tranquility Bay in Jamaica.
When most children first arrive they find it difficult to believe that they have no alternative but to submit. In shock, frightened and angry, many simply refuse to obey. This is when they discover the alternative. Guards take them (if necessary by force) to a small bare room and make them (again by force if necessary) lie flat on their face, arms by their sides, on the tiled floor. Watched by a guard, they must remain lying face down, forbidden to speak or move a muscle except for 10 minutes every hour, when they may sit up and stretch before resuming the position. Modest meals are brought to them, and at night they sleep on the floor of the corridor outside under electric light and the gaze of a guard. At dawn they resume the position.
This is known officially as being 'in OP' - Observation Placement - and more casually as 'lying on your face'. Any level student can be sent to OP, and it automatically demotes them to level 1 and zero points. Every 24 hours, students in OP are reviewed by staff, and only sincere and unconditional contrition will earn their release. If they are unrepentant? 'Well, they get another 24 hours.'
One boy told me he'd spent six months in OP.
:exclaim: :exclaim: :exclaim:
'The purpose of observation,' Kay offers, 'is to give the kids a chance to think. Hopefully, it's giving the kids a chance to reflect on the choices they've made.' And indeed it is often in OP that a student decides to stop fighting. In this respect, OP works. In fact, the success rate of OP can be understood as a perfect distillation of Tranquility Bay's ideology. If your son is willfully disrespectful, the most loving gift a parent can give him is incarceration in an environment so intolerable that he will do anything to get out - where 'anything' means surrendering his mind to authority.
'I say to the parents,' says Kay, leaning back in his office seat. 'The bottom line is, what's the end result you want? Getting there may be ugly, but at least with us you're going to get there.'
Observer Magazine
Read the new Observer Magazine here
Observer Magazine highlights
These were direct quotes -
NARVIN - please explain why you feel this untherapeutic and abusive treatment is necessary? You still have not given us any type of explaination for this. Was this also done at DUNDEE - if so - it should never be re-opened....
All of these comforting and reasonable things were taught by the ministers in their pulpits -- by teachers in Sunday schools and by parents at home. The children were victims. They were assaulted in the cradle -- in their mother's arms. Then, the schoolmaster carried on the war against their natural sense, and all the books they read were filled with the same impossible truths. The poor children were helpless. The atmosphere they breathed was filled with lies -- lies that mingled with their blood.
--Robert G. Ingersoll, American politician and lecturer
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Narvin, why is everyone lying about WWASP programs? You claim that all of the former students are lying and manipulative. You claim that your former administrator was a lying and disgruntled. You claim that all reporters twist the truth. I just don't buy it. Reporters do not put quotation marks around statements for no reason. They also usually tape everything to safeguard against libel suits. I believe that Ken Kay did admit that a female child had been kept "on her face" in observation for 18 months. This was on tape.
I find this highly abusive. Would you like to lay on your face for 18 months. This was torture. It is against International law. All of your programs should be shut down if you and your WWASP friends are doing this to children. It is untherapeutic and highly abusive to take 18 months of any person's life, restrict their movement and isolate them from others. It is HORRIBLE abuse. I think you should all be thrown in JAIL..... I believe that all important matters have to be settled here, not in the clouds somewhere after we kick off.
--Billy Joel, American musician
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Why?
First, the kids will say anything they think will push their parents buttons to bring them back home to their friends and drugs and the control they held over their parents prior to going.
Second, WWASPS does not pay educational consultants for a referral to their schools. Out of curiosity I called two such educational consultants and asked about two of the WWASPS schools and was told they would never recommend them. Reasons given were abuse, acting like the allegations were true. I asked them if they were paid a fee by them if they were to recommended them, and they said no. I asked if they were paid by other programs and one refused to answer, the other said yes, when appropriate.
When you can provide info on abuse that was proven to be TRUE in a court of law and a settlement was paid, I'll listen.
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It has already been proven to be true in a court of law.
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***When you can provide info on abuse that was proven to be TRUE in a court of law and a settlement was paid, I'll listen.
Have you ever asked WWASP for copies of all lawsuits that were settled? You wouldn't listen, because you condone the methods. What normal intellegent people consider abuse, you consider 'therapy'. "Bring on the torture", Right?
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Abuse was proven? So who went to jail and/or who was found guilty?
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So what you are saying, is that unless a court of law says that these children are not lying, that they will not be believed? That they can not tell their experiences to anyone but a court?
I guess it should apply to you. Don't call them liars unless you can prove in a court of law that they are.
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" It has already been proven to be true in a court of law."
No, based on your statement "So what you are saying, is that unless a court of law says that these children are not lying, that they will not be believed? That they can not tell their experiences to anyone but a court?" You said "it" implying abuse, has already been proven to be true in a court of law. I say if it has been proven in a court of law then someone must have been convicted. I am asking who?
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Take those families to court - Bethel Boys Academy, on it's own, is doing this. It's about time WWASPS called these kids and families on their crap in a court of law. Out the 50 or so kids that say they were abused in some way, I'm sure there thousands of others that will gladly stand in line to testify how ludicrous this is.
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Stop calling my child and others liars. Many of these young adults have been out of the program for a while and have nothing to gain but to help those left behind.
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The percentages wouldn't matter. Indeed many more are capable of being conditioned to believe that austere and abusive treatment is 'normal' and somehow useful to them.
So, what's stopping W from taking action against the 'liars'?
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On 2004-11-17 13:37:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Stop calling my child and others liars. Many of these young adults have been out of the program for a while and have nothing to gain but to help those left behind."
I would believe your child and others when they are face to face with those that graduated from the group they were in. You know, the ones that sat side by side in school, worked together, played together, slept in the same dorm... Did you ever have the courage to contact them and ask them their opinions of your child's allegations?
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Did you ever have the courage to contact them and ask them their opinions of your child's allegations?
I have in fact done exactly that. It was all confirmed - and more besides.
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So now you believe....Many of the young adults that have come forward with their stories are graduates, and yes, they have sat side by side with those that didn't complete the program and shared the same experiences.
Just because a child was held in a facility until they graduated does not mean that they don't claim mistreatment. They were just not lucky enough to have their parents wake up and bring them home.
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Anon,
WWASP did take an accuser of abuse to a court of law.They lost this past August.A federal jury found the defendant to be telling the truth about the many alleged abuses of WWASP.
WWASP can bring it on.It will be their undoing.
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How about putting Narvin face to face with these students? I know many that would love to be able to look him in the face and tell him he is the one that is lying. Especially a certain boy that was in OP for months at a time. Narvin stated "Our systems such as Observational Placement (not Observational Punishment) are designed for control, not punishment. Students are only required to be placed in there for one hour, if they remain in control of themselves".
If you look at the big picture, who has more to gain from lying? The young adults that have no threat of going back to these facilities and are only trying to save others from their experiences, or the one that wants to reopen his school and make more money?
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NARVIN :wave: :wave: :wave:
Still no one has come forward with any type of rationale for keeping a young girl on her face for 18 months. How can anyone reasonably conclude that this is appropriate treatment for anyone let alone a child. What if this were done to an elderly person with Alzheimers or a mentally retarded person? Many of these children suffer from mental illness. It just sickens me to know that this is still going on somewhere. It is truly disturbing that WWASP programs continue to thrive. I've come to the conclusion that the parents must have some mental disorder to allow their child to be treated worse than animals. This can not be justified and is entirely counter to established mental health guidelines.
NARVIN - Please tell us Why children are kept in solitary confinement and on thier face for 18 months? How can this be justified to professionals? Do you have any data to support this treatment? I'd really like to know......Life is like a bird, at any given moment it is droping a load. It is only a matter of time before one eventually find you.
SysAdmin
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On 2004-11-17 18:32:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Anon,
WWASP did take an accuser of abuse to a court of law.They lost this past August.A federal jury found the defendant to be telling the truth about the many alleged abuses of WWASP.
WWASP can bring it on.It will be their undoing."
That's not the way it went - only PURE would distort the reasoning behind WWASPS losing a court case. If the jury truly found the abuse cases fact, did these families win some sort of compensation? The only thing it proved was that PURE could continue allegations without consequence. Again, please provide some sort of proof other than hearsay.
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The families were not looking for compensation. They were simply telling their story in a court of law and the jury believed them. Proof again that they had nothing to gain from lying and WWASPS has everythig to gain.
Amazing that there is someone (I hope not a parent with a child still in a facility) that is still saying that WWASPS has done no wrong. Speak with 100 kids that say they were mistreated and believe only 10% if you want. WASPS should still be held accountable for their actions.
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How can you say that WWASPS is so innocent? Have you seen the pictures of the children at High Impact? They were tied down in dog cages. Keep that image in your head as you are defending these people.
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Anon,
I was there in court in August.It is not hearsay.
Read the court documents if you to substantiate the facts.The incredulous of the jury wont be there or the tears of the boy who had been incarcerated in the Program for years.You wont see the smiling ,giggling faces of the plaintiff's attorneys or the administrators laughing faces.
The "end result" will speak for itself.
It's not about Pure it's about children having been tortured and abused. Its about Pure having been vindicated for telling the truth.
Pure should have been compensated for cost of defending themselves .The UTAH judge ruled otherwise.
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That's Utah for you - even the judges are corrupt when it comes to this teen industry. This was unfair. What's the link again?
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Why is Narvin being so quiet now. He won't answer questions that were posed to him.
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can Narvin come out and play?
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quick! someone think of program speak to draw him back!
He's in his head!!! he's avoiding!It may be that our role on this planet is not to worship God, but to create him.
--Arthur C. Clarke, author
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No offense but I responded to everything I could and have been really busy...but as far as the girl on her face in where ever.... I am not part of the great WWASP illuminati or some vast right-wing conspiracy or even El Ninio so I know nothing about that, other than it would seem to defy logic and reason and I would imagine then she would have some kind of proof like floor bed sores.. But my experience here is truth and reason and even logic are always suspect when people start such witch hunts then as in Salem then seek to prove their validity at the costs of other peoples reputations, Jobs and lives. Also I never condoned any unsanitary conditions at Dundee and simply stated that the new kids who got sick simply were biologically adjusting to new surroundings, which is common in international travel.... As far as another comment on court proved abuse this is the only thing concrete in dealing with such things as abusive treatment for every story has 2 sides and most sides are blind to the whole truth when kids have been vested in a system and society of victimization that takes any salacious allegation and parades it as truth. Who hasn?t been wronged or abused in some way so this really gets the culpable worked up. The problem is that many kids use these stories as leverage to manipulate and guilt trip their parents into not sending them somewhere else that would require accountability or to provide them benefits shamelessly not earned. The real problem is that most of the troubled kids making these allegations are vested in their interest to do so and so the only way to resolve it is to let it stand the tests of the law and if guilty let the law take its course... but if not then the kids and the bleeding hearts (many who frequent here) who have self anointed themselves as the savior of the abused should then be liable for the defamations and destruction their false testimony has created in the lives of the persons they have accused and then made to pay damages or serve the jail time they have sought another without knowing the truth and soon this Lunacy would cease.... but as long as theirs is a something for nothing... then this ethic of victimhood and this situation will continue to be propagated
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yeh, yeh, yeh, we all know montezuma's revenege is to be expected. What appears to be in question, if indeed the illness was caused by this and not bad food; is what was done for the kid. There are things one can take to prevent or lessen the symptoms. Are the new arrivals protected? Or is this their welcome initiation?
But then you wouldn't know, would you? You're not El Nino and certainly aren't there enough to qualify as a spokesperson for the facility.
That comment about 'floor bed sores'. What? Her allegations defy logic and reason? Whose? Why? Are you attempting to make a blanket statement implying that it is impossible for such a thing to happen? Not sure which girl you are speaking about. Was it the one who has endured 3 surgeries to fix her jaw injury? Or someone else?
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On 2005-01-05 01:21:00, Anonymous wrote:
"...it would seem to defy logic and reason ..."
Yep, that's WWASP for you. Actually, it was Jay Kay who told of the girl who was "on her face" for 18 months. Are you suggesting he is a liar, Narvin?
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Narvin,
Starting all over again! Letting time go by and not answering questions posed to you on this board, then repeating your statement that ALL the teens that attended your facilities are liars.
You repeat that they were in your facilities because they were liars to begin with. Not all of them were! Many that have spoken up about their experiences have been "grads". With your record and WWASP's please stop calling all these teens liars. You have not proven yourself trustworthy and just because you are an adult, you feel that we should believe you and your stories, not theirs.....
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Off topic, but it makes me giggle every time I see his name. Just saw "The Jerk" again the other night. Reminds me of that...Navin Johnson..."I was born a poor black child" :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Narvin,
you said:
...provide them benefits shamelessly not earned.
Would you please define these "Benifits"?
Do you mean the benifit of a pleasent conversation? Of being able to talk to anyone at all?
The benifit of something on your dinner plate besides a spoonful of beans and a spoonful of rice?
The benifit of privacy in the tolet? the shower?
The benifit of a good nights sleep?
The benifit of open unfettered communication with family?
All of these things are benificial. Do you feel all these things should be earned?
Because these are examples of things one must Earn at Dundee, or any wwasp program. And your attempts to distance yourself from wwasp are not going to wash. No way Josue'.
::bandit::
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Narvin,
The only persons who will be in Prison will be you and yours.It has already been proven in court. You and yours keep trying to reverse what has been found to be the truth. MONEY cannot buy truth.No matter how hard you all try.
Keep your eyes open to the TV the pictures will tell the story.
Your threats are not working anymore. You and yours have been exposed.
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narvin,
you have NOT answered all of our questions?
When & where did you attend YOUR discovery class with flowie?
Answer that question & then I'll know you are who you say you are...
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Guess he got busy again. Lets bounce this so he can find it when he finds the time. ::bandit::
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oh narvin? where o where has little narvin gone?
maybe back to dundee w/ floia? answer the damned question narvin, scared or what?
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My goodness are you all so persistant.
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Persistant????
Narvin makes statements about issues that many of us know are lies. The persistant ones you speak of are the ones that have personal experiences with this man and want him to come back with answers to our questions, not the sermons of lies that he is preaching.
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Perrigaud - if we werent persistant, who would be?
Someone has to stick up and say what must be said. Someone has to keep on the people who have things to hide. Someone has to make sure the truth gets out.
Someone has to stop the hurt and the corruption. The function of the press is very high. It is almost holy. It ought to
serve as a forum for the people, through which the people may know freely what is going on. To misstate or suppress the news is a breach of trust.
--Mr. Justice Brandeis
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On 2005-01-20 06:48:00, Perrigaud wrote:
"My goodness are you all so persistant."
Men seldom, or rather never for a length of time, and deliberately, rebel against anything that does not deserve rebelling against.
--Thomas CarlyleIt's our goddamn duty to get these people back on drugs so they can think for themselves again!!!
RTP2003
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Interesting. I never said it was a bad thing now did I? But I do admire all of your persistance. I too am learning a lot through that persistance. So by all means go right ahead.
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:wink:
WHEN SPIDERS UNITE, THEY CAN TIE DOWN A LION
-- Ethiopian Proverb
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Lets keep Narvin and his boy together.
::bandit::
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I know why he was not allowed there. I am the the woman who it happened to.
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Do tell.
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It's one of those things I am not proud of!
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I already wrote a big chunk of what happened to me under the topic What happened to Bob Lichfield? What happened to me was soooo long ago though.