Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Anonymous on July 31, 2003, 08:40:00 PM
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:grin:
Hi Everybody:
So great to have this board and the info on it! I?m an educational consultant and it REALLY helps to send parents that have been considering a WWASP school the links and thoughts you all share!
WWASP doesn't pay educational consultants a fee?so guess what?? I refer parents to OTHER programs that use the same WWASP model that DO pay me the fee. What I like about this site is you HATE the WWASP program and I have plenty of ?stuff? to send to the parents to steer them away. I do wrestle with myself on this because WWASP has the best outcome/success, and what I do goes totally against what I learned and know, but I make a living helping parents that were in the same place that I was. Before you get upset with me?I?m not the only one ? just about every other educational consultant and the schools themselves are doing the same thing. The schools are independent, so they aren?t ?under fire.? The schools I do refer to, though they use the same program model, don?t have the help parents need: support groups, seminars, aftercare or warranty, or even the high success rate?but, so what?? Their tuition is higher, so my fee is higher!! YIPPEE!! Parents happen upon this or struggling teens and get all the negative info they need! Yippee again!!
Get UPSET at me for referring parents to programs ? I don?t care - similar help is better than none. I'm honest enough to admit it!! What you guys are doing is great!!
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From what i know of most educational consultants, they charge BOTH the parents and get a fee from the school they refer to...in most cases. They tend to refer to the school that pays the highest fee, whether it's in the best interests of the student/family. When I was researching some options, PURE referred me to an expensive week long boot camp in Arizona - which was completely NOT what my child needed. I did much better on my own, thank you very much. But if you choose to scare parents off that you know would benefit much better by admitting to a wwasp program, shame on you.
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Uh, if you really think its great to refer parents to this bulletin board to to steer them away from WWASPs schools, won't they read your post here too?
Thank you for your post, Mr. Atkin, your new found candor is refreshing. We are all pleased that Fornits welcomes messages representing all viewpoints. (As you know, other bulletin boards
have authoritarian policies which forbid "disconfirming viewpoints" tsk, tsk)
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Obviously this is not an ed consultant, just a wwaspie with a little sarcasm.
Of course its certainly not a wwasp student, I believe sarcasm leads to the torture room for a few months, doesn't it?
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Can't tell if it's a wwasp person that wrote this, but I do know that ed consultants and even the schools are now capitalizing on the publicity and regularly send it out to parents that are looking at options. Some even put hard copies in their mail out packets, saying they offer better options, etc. What I learned is that they don't give parents better options, just more expensive ones. They also pose as upset parents or teens on web sites so it's hard for the parents to tell if they are who they say they are. They've planted the seed of doubt, and that's what's it's all about, whether true or not. Some regularly go on the struggling teens site and privately e-mail parents that are asking about options - steering them to their websites or phone numbers. There, they not only make themselves sound better than wwasp, but any program they are not referring to. :???:
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This is exactly how PURE, Inc. profits off of WWASP. She uses her friends and associates to bash WWASP and promote PURE, Inc. I am sure there are a lot of other consultants and programs profiting off of the bad publicity that WWASP is getting.
This is why endorsing any consultant or program is dangerous. All of these programs are unregulated and the childern who reside within them are at risk.
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Carey, you may have some personal gripes with some of the people around here, but I think when it comes to the programs and why none can be trusted, we are on the same page.
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Ineresting. This seems to be happening a lot, anon posters pretending to be former students, too.
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:flame: If anyone ever conciders sending there kids to the wwasp programs do yourself a huge favor and dont spend half the money on therapy.
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Troll.
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You know, Carey, you're not always my favorite person. You're a bit abrasive, and because I'm a bit abrasive myself, that flicks me on the raw.
But you're right on this one. All the programs are unregulated, and that very unregulated nature means that even a program that was good for Mary Sue's kid may have had a staff change and be abusive to your kid.
They're dangerous, full stop, and they need appropriate external regulation to shut bad residential treatment down and ensure the patients who actually need residential treatment get sound, quality care without the abuse.
If WWASPS really were the superior providers they claim to be, they'd *welcome* external regulation because it would weed out substandard competitors and guarantee both quality care and that patients whose problems are more suitable to outpatient treatment wouldn't be needlessly institutionalized.
That they appear to be fighting even the idea of regulation tooth and nail says everything about them that I need to know.
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I write about my own personal negative experience with WWASPS because *it is my own experience*. I can verify my opinions, both from my own dealings with the company and from the personal experiences of my kid. I, like Carey, think that sending a kid away and hiring others to fix the problem is an irreversible, alienating, demoralizing decision, ripe with abuse.
If this is the foremost "anti-behavior modification" site, then I think we all have done a pretty fine job in presenting an enormous variety of food-for-thought information. We give real-life experiences of WWASPS, military schools, Straight, CEDU, and all sorts of other smaller "schools". In fact, I've been impressed lately with the philosophical and researched opinions from folks who object to any sort of "lock the little darlings up until they 'get it'" attitude that is prevalent with the WWASPies who post here.
The sarcastic post from the "Ed Consultant" is so transparent that I immediately thought of those past posts, calling somebody "Stupid Head". Wow...second grade stuff. Of course you can't post something saying your client-parents are real dumb-shits for believing your more-expensive recommendations on the same board you profess to lead them to. Jeez... Sounds about the intellectual caliber of Ken Kay when he tells the media "they're all liars". Intellectual level equals your age, Mr. Kay?...like about 50 or so?
We are apparently making a difference somewhere folks, or WWASPS wouldn't feel the need to counter-attack. Keep up the good work!
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You know, Carey, you're not always my favorite person. You're a bit abrasive, and because I'm a bit abrasive myself, that flicks me on the raw.
But you're right on this one. All the programs are unregulated, and that very unregulated nature means that even a program that was good for Mary Sue's kid may have had a staff change and be abusive to your kid.
They're dangerous, full stop, and they need appropriate external regulation to shut bad residential treatment down and ensure the patients who actually need residential treatment get sound, quality care without the abuse.
If WWASPS really were the superior providers they claim to be, they'd *welcome* external regulation because it would weed out substandard competitors and guarantee both quality care and that patients whose problems are more suitable to outpatient treatment wouldn't be needlessly institutionalized.
That they appear to be fighting even the idea of regulation tooth and nail says everything about them that I need to know.
This is why endorsing any consultant or program is dangerous. All of these programs are unregulated and the childern who reside within them are at risk.
That is why if you are truely in it for the kids then you can not stand behind or beside those such as PURE who are in the business. The risk is inherent in all of these types of programs, even Sues.
What makes you think they, WWASP programs, are fighting the idea of regulation tooth and nail? Is there evidence of that. Are they actively lobbying legislators? All I see is them actively going after a competitor who is trying to profit off of their loss.
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That was me.
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Carey ,
I am sick and tired of you telling Fornits floks that Sue usesher associated and frinds to bash wwasp to promote PURE.That si such bullshit.
My son and family was mistreated and used by wwasp long before I ever hooked up with Pure website.
Because you have an issuse with Sue/Pure does not put us all in the same boat.
What have you done to enlighten the masses to help regulate these programs or deter parents from enrolling there kids?
Find a new song to sing or shut up.
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If you don't like it, don't read it.
Have we not been over this before. You can not control others. You can not control what I choose to say. If you do not want to hear what I have do say, then don't read it. That you can control.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Ain't Fornets great! We all have a voice and we all have the right to exercise that voice. We also all have eyes and we can all exercise those eyes....as we so choose to read.
The following is especially for you C.M.
This is why endorsing any consultant or program is dangerous. All of these programs are unregulated and the childern who reside within them are at risk.
That is why if you are truely in it for the kids then you can not stand behind or beside those such as PURE who are in the business. The risk is inherent in all of these types of programs, even Sues.
What makes you think they, WWASP programs, are fighting the idea of regulation tooth and nail? Is there evidence of that. Are they actively lobbying legislators? All I see is them actively going after a competitor who is trying to profit off of their loss.
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Carey - I could be way off base, but in reading many past posts here is what I see:
PURE used to refer parents to Fornits if they were considering WWASP schools. My opinion is this would scare the parents silly and wouldn't GO to WWASP after reading it but to "their" gentler and kinder programs :eek: It seems that many of the PURE camp had/is posting unsubstantiated abuse reports and attacking you (in a very ugly way) for spilling the beans on their agenda.
Now the tables have turned and PURE can no longer refer parents to this site, which was their meat and potatoes. You exposed those involved and now they are suing YOU. As an outsider looking in, I see you as credible in what you shared here.
The biggest image I have right now of PURE is that they really aren't in the business of helping families in a good way. Those parents seem to be used by PURE to gain momentum in defaming a program, and only one program, that refused to pay a fee for their referrals. That's what the first such court hearing was about 2 years ago about the postings on another forum. WWASP or not, I would take PURE to court from all that has been said from their supporters. Could that be their motivation for suing you?
Don't you wonder what these "parents" are really all about? It doesn't seem to be about love and healing, to me.
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On 2004-02-06 18:54:00, Carey wrote:
"If you don't like it, don't read it.
Have we not been over this before. You can not control others. You can not control what I choose to say. If you do not want to hear what I have do say, then don't read it. That you can control.
:wink: :lol:
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Must be coming from a perfectionist that feels the need to point out other people's mistakes instead of looking at what is driving their need to be perfect :rofl:
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"
On 2004-02-06 18:54:00, Carey wrote:
"If you don't like it, don't read it.
If you do not want to hear what I have do say, then don't read it. That you can control.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
I don't mind hearing what you say...I agree with you on many points.....I just think you come across as a bitch to anyone who doesn't happen to agree with EVERYTHING you say.....sounds like the same people you claim to despise so much. I can agree with you on quite a few topics, i.e. ISAC losing some credibility....but you also diminish yourself with how you say things to people in that snotty, sarcastic tone. It's like you're a little kid going "nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah" with your damn tongue sticking out. You most likely have some good resources and good information to share with people who are not aware of these places, but if you come across to them the way you come across here...BELIEVE ME.....you're doing more damage to yourself and this cause than you are good.
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On 2004-02-06 20:27:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Must be coming from a perfectionist that feels the need to point out other people's mistakes instead of looking at what is driving their need to be perfect :rofl: "
no, just decided to be childish and condescending, following the example Carey set.
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Funny thing about reading posts. You can look at the words and attach a "tone" and think that's how everyone is reading it. I read Carey's posts as information - no tone to it, just information.
I haven't read Carey using profanities or kindergarten "get backs". That is coming from those that are being exposed and they don't seem to like it very much
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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then you're not paying attention
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Funny thing about reading posts. You can look at the words and attach a "tone" and think that's how everyone is reading it. I read Carey's posts as information - no tone to it, just information.
D' Nile ain' jes a rivah in Eegypt...
[ This Message was edited by: Froderik13 on 2004-02-07 08:09 ]
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I miss Ginger who seemed to always have her finger on the pulse of what's b.s. and what isn't. Likewise Froderick, though when it comes to his opinion of Carey, I do think he has been unfair and at times, rather unkind. Much like the PURE folks who would have us all believe they are the truth-seekers and ISAC, who seems to have seriously lost their way and as such, compromised their integrity. Personally, I do not object to Carey's posts or their tone. From the git go she has been consistent in trying to get her message across to people who for the most part, are incapable of seeing the forest for the trees. It takes some work to wade through all the b.s. but it's worth the effort if one is sincerely interested in separating fact from fiction which can only be done by seeing both sides of the coin. That's what I think Carey's message is.
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Actually, I miss Ginger, too. I didn't always agree aith her, but at least she was real, and I know WHO SHE IS. As far as Carey, believe it or not, I don't think everything she says is a crock. But it is very frustrating to try to get her to be on the level about things sometimes.
I want to tell you - all of you anons on both sides must have some reason for posting here, unlike me. Actually I do/did have a reason. to shut you all up BY getting SOMEONE to come out and state the truth. Carey seemed like she was FOS. I went for it. It was like talking to the tar-baby, at least that was my experience. And her tone is almost abrassive as mine is at times, lol. Hence my increasingly obnoxious posts and threads that followed (2-3 months ago) So you anons must have a reason for posting here AND being anonymous. You all are with different organizations and you care what people think about what they read on this forum...why do you spend so much time debating all of this litigious stuff? Why can't there be a separate place where you all can dothis so that the rest of us don't have to see it? :???:
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Yeah, Ginger is definitly missed and it pisses me off that certain people had the audacity to ever say an unkind word about that lady because she is a bona-fide (for real) humanitarian, unlike these wanna-be puritarians and FOS program parents. Anyway, not to worry. The truth is marching on and Froderick, it's good you are onboard with keeping it real. Sooner or later, the house of cards is gonna fall because everybody in their own way has helped to chip away at the facade weakening the foundation, the very nuts and bolts of the TEEN HURT INDUSTRY. So carry on, anons and non-anons. We ain't outta the trenches yet!
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Oh, regarding the litigious issues. Personally, I agree with Froderick. It would be helpful to have a separate forum though I think the question was asked before and Ginger had expressed some doubt as to whether that was a viable suggestion. Since some people (myself included) have taken the time to study the legal issues at-hand and find them to be highly worthy of discussion and debate, perhaps Ginger will reconsider adding a forum, if nothing else, to keep these issues at the forefront instead of on the back burner. Frankly, there is good reason to pay attention to what is going on in the legal arena (but of course, the litigants know that, which is why they probably would object to a separate forum).
:smokin:
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Well, sorry you find it annoying. It's too bad there's nothing we can do to put a flag in the topic heading so those of you who don't want to read the legal threads can know which ones to avoid.
I'm not with any program. My motivation for being here is I knew someone who got shipped off for no good reason and was appalled to find out that it was legal. Then it turned out that we couldn't do anything to get her out and the only constructive thing we could do was to get involved and try to get some safeguards and oversight in place so it wouldn't happen to anyone else.
I'm on Fornits because it's the best site I've found on the net for breaking news on the industry.
I'm anon because my friend's family is rich and if a chance comes up to help her I don't want to risk not being able to because their lawyer manages to make hay out of something I said on the internet---paranoid, I guess, but *not* taking the risk is the only thing left I can do for her.
I don't know if it will help, but from now on if I'm talking about something legal, then either in the topic or subtopic I'll put (legal)---it should make it easier for those of you who want to skip over it.
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Good Idea, Anon. No harm in marking posts LEGAL if that's what the issues are about. I don't think Froderick cares if people are interested in the legal stuff, he probably just wishes they would carry on their discussions in a forum that is reserved for just that purpose. God knows we could all use a little direction (just kidding, I swear!!). Anyway, it's an idea. Personally, I think it would be helpful to have a clearinghouse of legal issues, past, current and future, that are related to the industry, at large. That way people doing research or just interested in following a case would know where to find the info. A separate forum would probably not be all that productive, due to concerns about privacy and pending motions, court rulings, etc.
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I know ed consultants, faculty, managers and boarding schools especially CEDU is failing. WWASP is a pathetic joke. And, I only know one Ed Consultant (a title that means nothing and is backed by nothing), who isn't just a dimwit former staff member with no education related to behavioral or special ed. Dont ask for her name -she works for a money grubbing idiot with a familiar web page - you. I intend to redouble my bad PR, just to let stupid assholes like you know that we all know you are impotent greedy sociopaths. FUCK YOU.
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On 2004-02-07 08:07:00, Froderik13 wrote:
"Actually, I miss Ginger, too. I didn't always agree aith her, but at least she was real, and I know WHO SHE IS. As far as Carey, believe it or not, I don't think everything she says is a crock. But it is very frustrating to try to get her to be on the level about things sometimes.
I want to tell you - all of you anons on both sides must have some reason for posting here, unlike me. Actually I do/did have a reason. to shut you all up BY getting SOMEONE to come out and state the truth. Carey seemed like she was FOS. I went for it. It was like talking to the tar-baby, at least that was my experience. And her tone is almost abrassive as mine is at times, lol. Hence my increasingly obnoxious posts and threads that followed (2-3 months ago) So you anons must have a reason for posting here AND being anonymous. You all are with different organizations and you care what people think about what they read on this forum...why do you spend so much time debating all of this litigious stuff? Why can't there be a separate place where you all can dothis so that the rest of us don't have to see it? :???: "
Oh Alex... To start off, stop confronting like you're still in the program! SHEESH! It's so annoying to hear a grown man do!
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Oh Alex... To start off, stop confronting like you're still in the program! SHEESH! It's so annoying to hear a grown man do!
You're referring to the phrase "FOS," no doubt, and yes, we know that was program-speak (full-of-shit)...I take it you were in straight or someplace yourself? But haven't you ever heard that phrase used outside of the program? I have. Plenty. You hear it all the time. So, I can't repeat any phrases if they were adopted by the program? I guess that would mean that I'm still brainwashed eh? Kinda asinine.. :flame:
Now that we got that out of the way, go on...you said, "to start off with" so go ahead and tell me the rest..if you want..
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Carey seemed like she was FOS. I went for it
Thinking about this statement, I see how you thought that. There it was, some fresh meat (Carey) and I dug in. But it really seemed to me that she was at fault...and I'm the type that can't fucking stand it when people beat around the bush. That ain't necessarily program, that's just me (I'm an Aries, if that means anything to you.)
Well, whatever. That post you responded to was five days old...my views are subject to change on a minute-to-minute basis, depending on facts/questions/other points of view presented to me..so, yeah, I see how that sounded kinda like someone still in a program..oh well..BFD.
I still wonder if she is FOS... :eek:
Why do you care so much how I sound? Did something that I said strike a nerve?
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/bump