Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Anonymous on October 04, 2008, 02:28:17 AM
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Why should programs take years when behavior can improve in a week.
Look at the MTV Exiled (http://http://www.mtv.com/ontv/dyn/exiled/series.jhtml).
You take some 18-20 year olds which their families have spoiled and promoted as spoiled in a previous serie and send them to some far out country living - good Lord no - like most of us when we are hiking in various countries.
So they break down and cry regardless of the fact that they dont even risk being abducted or killed like most of us if we visited the same countries because they have some 50-100 filmcrews and security living around the corner.
So ....
Why have programs at all?
Could parents not make arrangements with families living primitive in Norway, Sweden and Finland (They are regarded as safe counties) and ship their at-risk teen up there for a week among the reindeers instead of putting themselves into debt for decades?
(I was almost dying from laughter when one of the girls came back and showed her ability to make it on her self by making a burger on her own for the first time in her life; A job I could make my 9 year old daugther do with a better result).
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I think it's because programs aren't really designed to improve behavior. Well, they sort of are, and sort of aren't. From the perspective of a parent, this might be what they assume. After all, they are told some form of this variant to assuage their fears of the obvious intrusion into person hood they find themselves ready to engage in. To be honest though I have no idea what future program parents think, and I never will. Some say wait, when your kids are teenagers and become crack whores you will empathize with our decisions. The problem with that though is simple. I have already been through the wringer and my judgment is very much dependent upon my experience and memories. I just can't forget it at will, or even pretend to. I can theorize what a parent might think, a truly ignorant parent whose knowledge of programs is little more than a brochure and phone call. But I will never really know.
Back to behavior and whether or not it is improved. Some might tour a program, say a parent, and be amazed at how well behaved the kids are. From this outside perspective it might be surprising that a group of the roughest teenagers you could find, are so quiet and cordial. The problem with this assumption is two fold. First, the kids are not bad or as bad as most make them out to be. Second, the well behaved group of kids is trained in the art of emotional assassination and physical pain. They know not to speak out of turn for those simple yet effective reasons.
So it really depends and goes back to intent. We must question if the parents wish to have a well behaved, rather, quiet and obedient child, knowing full well of the means used to reach such a conclusion. One might assume that those receiving tours of programs who are amazed at the appearance of order might ask how it is done. You might also assume that the parents might ask this same question, and if we are lucky some sort of government official might become curious and ask this question. For it is in this question wherein lies the secrets.
How do you get a kid who smoked pot a couple times to admit freely and publicly to being a full-on drug addict for life?
How do you get a kid to admit their darkest deepest secrets in front of a large group of strangers, secrets they know full well will be used to hurt them, yet still reveal what most would take to the grave?
How do you change a rebellious free spirit into a sycophantic, fearful automaton in just a few months?
How exactly are these things accomplished, one might assume someone would ask.
The answers to these questions are complicated, brutal and ugly. Behavior modification is a codeword, euphemism for abuse, plain and simple. The idea so goes if you make a child so uncomfortable, as in pushing them to their human breaking point until you hear snap, they will be forced to reevaluate their life, and the decisions which led them to this reprogramming in the first place. The problem is the instant and most obvious, and usually correct answer is what led them to this place is their parents ignorant, mean-spirited, or generally stupid decision to send them. They might answer they would be in high school right now like a normal teen if not for their unnecessary and grossly overbearing parental intervention. They would probably be right. The programs feels otherwise.
Fast forward a few months and now ask that same kid why they are at the program. Nine times out of ten, the answer might surprise you. They will make no mention of their parents, or bad decisions. They have now learned to take "responsibility" and "accountability" for their actions in a way that would make any paying parent proud. The burden lifted and replaced, absolved, forgiven and forgotten. At this point the parents don't ask why or how, they are just happy with their adolescent 2.0, reprogrammed to be the stepford parents dream child.
The problem is there is a bug in the software. It only seems to work when installed on program hardware. You take the immense fear, intimidation, snitches, controlled environment, fence, censorship, abuse, emotional turmoil, sickness, terrible living conditions, relentless brainwashing sessions, blackmail familial love, etc, away - well then there is a problem. Suddenly the program software doesn't work so well. At this point you might assume the parents ask why that is. Were we conned, duped, bamboozled in an elaborate, expensive, diabolical hoax? Is that why the program limited and censored our contact and only sent us quarterly pictures, like a child held for ransom? Could what my child is telling me be true? Did I really spend all of that money to subsidize the systematic, long-term, unforgettable emotional and physical abuse of my very own child?
I assume people ask these questions. In that sense I think I might be wrong though. These are questions coming from an insider, courtesy of a front row seat to the all inclusive, parental endorsed horror show. So to me the questions are obvious. To them, well, I really don't know.
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Ah, my first "host family." Right cunts they were, the lot of them. My "oldcomer" was the gung-ho, 'in your face' type. In the midst of the emotional turmoil I faced during that first week at Straight, I sometimes wished I could get a hold of a knife or something to just get out of that fucking place somehow.... God how I hated them!
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Were we conned, duped, bamboozled in an elaborate, expensive, diabolical hoax?
Why yes, yes we were.
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How do you get a kid who smoked pot a couple times to admit freely and publicly to being a full-on drug addict for life?
How do you get a kid to admit their darkest deepest secrets in front of a large group of strangers, secrets they know full well will be used to hurt them, yet still reveal what most would take to the grave?
How do you change a rebellious free spirit into a sycophantic, fearful automaton in just a few months?
How exactly are these things accomplished, one might assume someone would ask.
You fill his head full of LIES, scare the shit out of him, threaten and humiliate him, make him believe he is insane and that "a power greater than himself can restore him to sanity," subject his hapless mind to GROUPTHINK, insist that he always PAY ATTENTION :wall:, reward him with "privileges" (for compliance to their bullshit, of course) that merely equate to basic human rights as an American citizen, constantly remind him of his need to "work on himself," fill him full of fear and loathing for all things "druggie" in their eyes, someone would answer.
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It would be nice to be able to effectively alter risky or self destructive behavior in shorter periods of time.
There was a guy in the 1970’s who tried to influence peoples perspective, self awareness and behavior in about 60 hours. He conducted it in two weekends of seminars (60 hours I believe) I had a friend who went thru it, the guys name was Erhard or Enhard. It is way before many people here I am sure and I think it faded in popularity in the early 1980’s. But I dont think it was very effective or long lasting and that is around the time when people discovered “time” was a major factor in lasting change or behavior modification.
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There was a guy in the 1970's who tried to influence peoples perspective, self awareness and behavior in about 60 hours. He conducted it in two weekends of seminars (60 hours I believe) I had a friend who went thru it, the guys name was Erhard or Enhard. It is way before many people here I am sure and I think it faded in popularity in the early 1980's.
Feigned ignorance? You know EXACTLY what his name is. Interesting that you (of all people) should intimate that Werner Erhard's est/The Forum/Landmark Education was a forerunner of programs. I wouldn't exactly regard that association as a good selling point, ha ha.
But I dont think it was very effective or long lasting and that is around the time when people discovered “time” was a major factor in lasting change or behavior modification.
Well, yeah...but if there is supposedly "lasting change or behavior modification" from spending time in program, how come none of us are significantly "changed," nor our behavior "modified?" The only thing that seems to LAST over the years is the trauma of having been put through all that!
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Feigned ignorance? You know EXACTLY what his name is. Interesting that you (of all people) should intimate that Werner Erhard's est/The Forum/Landmark Education was a forerunner of programs. I wouldn't exactly regard that association as a good selling point, ha ha.
Why are you so assuming? Why are you being a dick? I don’t see it as a direct connection at all. Those seminars ended in the 80’s. Dont be such a prick. I am sure there were people who influenced him also (good and bad) and continues back to the stone age. You could trace the best medical practices today back to barbaric bloodletting or the use of lobotomies etc. if you felt the need to discredit someone. You pick a small threaded connection to suit your purpose.
Well, yeah...but if there is supposedly "lasting change or behavior modification" from spending time in program, how come none of us are significantly "changed," nor our behavior "modified?" The only thing that seems to LAST over the years is the trauma of having been put through all that!
The friend that went thru it said it wasn’t bad at all and he felt really good afterwards (except not being allowed to use the bathroom) and that was after only 60 hours. As far as the programs today, I don’t think there is a question on whether or not they are effective. The change is lasting and the kids are moving on to better lives and getting back on track. I don’t think we can attribute this to einhard because the programs have evolved so much since then that there is little left of his influence. It seems the programs of the 70’s and 80’s were much harsher. If you look at the programs today you will see that they are less harsh and the child works for longer periods of time (1 year plus) so that the behavior modification has time to take hold. If you look at the ABA work that is being done on children with autism you will see what I mean about the time factor and criticality of addressing the issues as early in the persons life as possible, that is what made einhards 60 hour seminars short lived. The key to lasting change is time and slow change over a longer time frame and there were many people taking his seminars who were in their 20’s and 30’s which would reduce the overall effectiveness or success rate.
So I think if his seminars taught us anything it was the time factor and earlier intervention. This is why programs continue to grow and become more effective is because they are constantly adjusting and reacting to what works and what doesn’t. This is why it is so critical to continue to gain feedback on how the graduates are doing after they leave. The better programs get better by doing this. The ones that are ineffective and don’t give into change will wane and eventually tank on their own like any other business would which ignored their customers feedback.
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The programs look at their installed base (kids who have passed thru their program/system).. how many are out there?… how are they doing?..... how many did they help?.... How many didn’t they help?... were the changes they made to their program model effective or ineffective. This is the only way to stay competitive and to continue to increase the number of kids that are helped each year. There is no doubt in my mind that some kids are not helped by the programs they attend which is evident by those who come on here to fornits to tell their story.
The frustrating part is that fornits doesn’t have a sense to gauge or measure the feedback they are getting. The old arguments that todays programs are traced back to the harsh programs of the past doesnt really mean anything. Telling new readers the story of the 300 pound staff person who sat on a kid and killed him as a way to convince people that all staff people are evil is nuts or showing pictures of the “Hobbit” from the 1960’s doesn’t relate to what is going on today.
If fornits was trying to convince people that public schools were unsafe your methods would include telling stories of columbine massacre and the teachers who raped their students or gym teachers who forced kids to run until they died, pictures of the riots in the 1960’s due to busing etc…..but would this be a fair analysis of what our typical public school system is like? Of course not…should we be aware of these..yes. But they need to be placed in perspective is all I am trying to say.
Parents should be made aware of the risks involved in sending their children to a TBS but they should also be offered the advantages and successes at the same time. Fornits only offers a very heavily downside and not very representative view of what programs stand for and what they accomplish each year for many children. It would be nice to see fornits someday move off the fringe and more towards the center and start talking about the pros and cons of residential treatment and start helping some of these parents that pass thru here looking for information.
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It would also be nice for rape victims to take accountability for their actions.
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Feigned ignorance? You know EXACTLY what his name is. Interesting that you (of all people) should intimate that Werner Erhard's est/The Forum/Landmark Education was a forerunner of programs. I wouldn't exactly regard that association as a good selling point, ha ha.
Why are you so assuming? Why are you being a dick? I don’t see it as a direct connection at all. Those seminars ended in the 80’s. Dont be such a prick. I am sure there were people who influenced him also (good and bad) and continues back to the stone age. You could trace the best medical practices today back to barbaric bloodletting or the use of lobotomies etc. if you felt the need to discredit someone. You pick a small threaded connection to suit your purpose.
Well, yeah...but if there is supposedly "lasting change or behavior modification" from spending time in program, how come none of us are significantly "changed," nor our behavior "modified?" The only thing that seems to LAST over the years is the trauma of having been put through all that!
The friend that went thru it said it wasn’t bad at all and he felt really good afterwards (except not being allowed to use the bathroom) and that was after only 60 hours. As far as the programs today, I don’t think there is a question on whether or not they are effective. The change is lasting and the kids are moving on to better lives and getting back on track. I don’t think we can attribute this to einhard because the programs have evolved so much since then that there is little left of his influence. It seems the programs of the 70’s and 80’s were much harsher. If you look at the programs today you will see that they are less harsh and the child works for longer periods of time (1 year plus) so that the behavior modification has time to take hold. If you look at the ABA work that is being done on children with autism you will see what I mean about the time factor and criticality of addressing the issues as early in the persons life as possible, that is what made einhards 60 hour seminars short lived. The key to lasting change is time and slow change over a longer time frame and there were many people taking his seminars who were in their 20’s and 30’s which would reduce the overall effectiveness or success rate.
So I think if his seminars taught us anything it was the time factor and earlier intervention. This is why programs continue to grow and become more effective is because they are constantly adjusting and reacting to what works and what doesn’t. This is why it is so critical to continue to gain feedback on how the graduates are doing after they leave. The better programs get better by doing this. The ones that are ineffective and don’t give into change will wane and eventually tank on their own like any other business would which ignored their customers feedback.
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Geez Louise, Who, now you're calling me names!? Dick, prick...that's some pretty mean-spirited language there... I'll try to see a back-handed compliment in all that somehow.
:D
If you really want to be an effective program advocate, Who, I'd suggest doing a little more research before you fly off the handle like that. Even your friend and mentor Lon Woodbury cites the importance of the Human Potential movement in the 70s as being part and parcel of integral program "philosophy." In his essay "INNOVATION AND PREDICTABILITY" (http://http://www.strugglingteens.com/artman/publish/InnovationPredictabilityES_040831.shtml) (August 31, 2004), he even mentions Werner Erhard's est (colored emphasis mine):
...and by the 1970s parents of struggling teens needing residential placement had for the most part only clinical choices - hospitals or residential treatment centers to choose from.
However, the 1960s and 1970s saw a tremendous surge of innovative ideas and new approaches for these teens. Synanon, Daytop, Elan, DeSisto, EST, boy’s ranches, LifeSpring, the Dallas Salesmanship Club, wilderness adventure, back-to-nature communities and many other innovative approaches proliferated, challenging the system of predictability then in vogue. The founders of those facilities that were focused on struggling teens developed philosophies and approaches they thought would better meet these children’s needs because they felt the standard approach to helping teens who were making poor decisions did not help many of them...[/list]
He describes the evolution of CEDU, his old haunting ground:
...One of the most influential approaches to the network of emotional growth/therapeutic schools and programs was Mel Wasserman’s CEDU School, founded in 1967.
Wasserman concluded, like many other innovative founders of the time, that there was nothing available to adequately help teens with problems, so he went into the school business. Since the psychological research of that time focused on abnormal behaviors, Wasserman discarded the mainstream treatment practices as too limiting, and he adapted from many of the other alternative education currents of thought flourishing during the 1960s and 1970s, and from the self-improvement movement....[/list]
Lon rambles a bit, and the context may not be entirely clear from the snippets above, but the basic gist of this particular essay is that 1.) society, public schooling, and the psychiatric treatment of troubled teenage souls were -- at the time -- too predictable and limiting; 2.) innovations in approach brought about by the human potential movement (he cites Synanon, est, etc.) offered new possibilities; and 3.) "humanitarian" and innovative folk such as Wasserman saw the opportunity to make a difference and ran with it.
I may not agree with Lon's POV or conclusions in this essay, but that's not my point. My point is this: even Lon Woodbury, diametrically opposed to the mindset of many, if not most, of those who post on fornits, focuses on the human potential/self-improvement movement as being critical to the development of programs and sustenance of their "success."
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@ Ursus, Sorry I got overly emotional with my response. I was thinking of another post at the same time I was responding to yours so the energy flowed over into yours. I understand what you are saying.
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Dear Mr. Who
The interesting thing about this serie is that there is no therapy done in those programs by professionals.
The youth are sent out and meet someone of their own age and get inside knowledge about who life is for this foreign youth.
It is almost like wilderness therapy without the therapists.
But somehow the exiled youth change from inside. Can you explain the sudden drive those youth get from talking with youth from another culture?
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For those who aren't familiar with TheWho's troll tactics, this is when he asks himself questions and talks to himself. Pretty sad, huh?
Cue TheWho in 5..4..3..2....
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The interesting thing about this serie is that there is no therapy done in those programs by professionals.
You apparently have never attended or had someone you know attend a program. They have licensed professionals who conduct the therapy for those who require it. These therapists keep in constant contact with the childs therapist at home.
The youth are sent out and meet someone of their own age and get inside knowledge about who life is for this foreign youth.
?
It is almost like wilderness therapy without the therapists.
I guess some places can be this way, depends on what the child needs and the wishes of the parents and childs therapists. Each program is a little different.
But somehow the exiled youth change from inside. Can you explain the sudden drive those youth get from talking with youth from another culture?
The only natural way to change is from the inside. This is what makes the better programs so successful. Some children respond from interacting with successful peers, so this is also used.
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@ Ursus, Sorry I got overly emotional with my response. I was thinking of another post at the same time I was responding to yours so the energy flowed over into yours. I understand what you are saying.
No prob.
Although...and no offense intended by this, but...sometimes it really does seem as though more than one person may be posting as "TheWho."
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It would also be nice for rape victims to take accountability for their actions.
GOOD point!! All these programs preach that you're basically responsible for anything and everything that ever happens to you.
Now, where have I heard that before?
"Responsibility begins with the willingness to be
cause in the matter of one's life."
http://wernererhardandest.wordpress.com ... rd-on-est/ (http://wernererhardandest.wordpress.com/2008/04/20/werner-erhard-on-est/)[/list]
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This is not the TheWho sending TheWho questions.
The interesting thing about this serie is that there is no therapy done in those programs by professionals.
You apparently have never attended or had someone you know attend a program. They have licensed professionals who conduct the therapy for those who require it. These therapists keep in constant contact with the childs therapist at home.
I think that you are avoiding my question.
No, I have never attended a program but I have seen this show this thread is about. In the show you average but spoiled teenagers or young adults to foreign countries for a week. Countries most people would not visit due to the risk of being killed in a civil war or abducted but with some 100+ filmcrew and security it can be done.
When arrived the teenager is teamed up with a teen of their own gender and age. They experiense life as it is. Because we are talking Kenya, India and Peru there are no cellphones, no running water etc. One of the girls did even get sick due to the attitude, something that could have killed her.
The point is that the teenager return home somehow behavior modified AFTER A WEEK!
Can you explain that when we are talking no therapy?
The youth are sent out and meet someone of their own age and get inside knowledge about who life is for this foreign youth.
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Look at the videos.
It is almost like wilderness therapy without the therapists.
I guess some places can be this way, depends on what the child needs and the wishes of the parents and childs therapists. Each program is a little different.
Then if you have to decide what is the most important then what is it? The childs need or the wishes of the therapist and the parents of the child.
I know that there can be a potential conflict there. After all some are in it for the money.
But somehow the exiled youth change from inside. Can you explain the sudden drive those youth get from talking with youth from another culture?
The only natural way to change is from the inside. This is what makes the better programs so successful. Some children respond from interacting with successful peers, so this is also used.
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Then why is it not used in a greater scale?
Such a well-known place like ASR (http://http://wiki.fornits.com/index.php?title=Academy_at_Swift_River) has even stopped sending kids abroad. Why?
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It would also be nice for rape victims to take accountability for their actions.
Sorry Dish, I know where you are going with this and I just don’t buy into that whole argument and cant agree with you here on any level. I agree that some women dress far too provocatively for their own good and indulge in risky behavior but a person should never be responsible for the aggressions against them by another person. Society needs to draw the line and send a clear message to violators of rape and date rape. There should be mandatory prison time for everyone who crosses this line and an education plan put into place to insure that all levels of society as a whole understand these definitions.
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It would also be nice for rape victims to take accountability for their actions.
Sorry Dish, I know where you are going with this and I just don’t buy into that whole argument and cant agree with you here on any level. I agree that some women dress far too provocatively for their own good and indulge in risky behavior but a person should never be responsible for the aggressions against them by another person. Society needs to draw the line and send a clear message to violators of rape and date rape. There should be mandatory prison time for everyone who crosses this line and an education plan put into place to insure that all levels of society as a whole understand these definitions.
You are missing the point, Who. In program, kids are taught differently. They are taught that victims are responsible for everything that happens to them, including rape. This is especially true of kids who are raped in program.
Where's the "mandatory prison time" for THOSE perps? At worst, they go on to "counsel" elsewhere. Not enough duct tape for ya?
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You are missing the point, Who. In program, kids are taught differently. They are taught that victims are responsible for everything that happens to them, including rape. This is especially true of kids who are raped in program.
These are the types of programs we should be trying to get parents to avoid. If we can get parents to speak to other parents who had kids attend, speak to the admissions people and random kids on campus these types of place could be avoided.
Where's the "mandatory prison time" for THOSE perps? At worst, they go on to "counsel" elsewhere.
We are hoping that regulation and transparency will help to better solve this.
Not enough duct tape for ya?
Ha,Ha,Ha you have been here for awhile!! Remember that guy who claimed he was duct taped from head to toe and then carried down to the ocean during a monsoon and thrown in!!! Talk about trying to get attention. Looking back now I think if he toned his story down a little and told us he was forced to carry wood around or study for hours on end he would have got a few people to believe him. But I do think that is the overall classic fabricated story I have heard here.
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Geez Louise, Who, now you're calling me names!? Dick, prick...that's some pretty mean-spirited language there... I'll try to see a back-handed compliment in all that somehow.
:D
See? You always criticize the survivors for being "overly sensitive" and look at the example of "balanced" you present. Pathetic. Ursus could have called you a most pungent cunt and rightly so but he took the high road while you took the lowest of dirt trails.
Then there was the whining plea for pity:
@ Ursus, Sorry I got overly emotional with my response. I was thinking of another post at the same time I was responding to yours so the energy flowed over into yours. I understand what you are saying.
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No you don't. Lying slunk trader. If you did you would have stayed gone the first time you gave your worthless promise to f-f-f-fade away. As Ursus notes you are given to rapid mood shifts and violent outbursts that make you look like a schizo freak. At least Ursus is diplomatic and refrained from calling you an A1 nutboy who should never been allowed to exercise the "parental choice" that landed your kid in ASR. (If that isn't just another lie) You shouldn't be allowed to make decisions for yourself. Get treatment.
Although...and no offense intended by this, but...sometimes it really does seem as though more than one person may be posting as "TheWho."
I know a good boot camp for adults. We'll sign custody of you over to the program. They'll break you down, humiliate you, over medicate you. Some counselor without a GED will beat you shitless because you remind him of the assholes who caused him to drop out in ninth grade. Tough love is what you need Who. You want workin' on, boy.
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Although...and no offense intended by this, but...sometimes it really does seem as though more than one person may be posting as "TheWho."
THERE's a thought! Maybe TheWho is mostly one person, but wifey or assoc. fills in to repair blunders. Might explain that schizo freak behaviour.
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While my statement was intentionally loaded - the emphasis was on 'it would be nice' - and not on 'rape'.
I was responding to the notion that 'it would be nice' if Fornit's evolved into some edgy version of 'Struggling turds'.
On 2nd thought - I'm all for it. After we lobotomize Fornits we move on to the Olympics. Think of how nice it would be. During the opening ceremony it would be swell if every country played a slightly modified version of the Star Spangled Banner as they introduced their athletes. Yes, that would be very nice.
then I'll call Maynard from Tool and convince him to change his tune to something more amenable...perhaps Mariah Carey or Michael Bolton.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dr47O5OjC_A (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dr47O5OjC_A)
Speaking of duct tape, during a congressional hearing under oath, this person testifies that duct tape was regularly used to restrain students. This quote happens 2:20 into the video.
I can't even imagine what type of person trolls people telling their testimony of abuse, it's almost unimaginable to me that such a disturbed person would exist. Yet here one is, claiming to be a program parent. That would make sense, since I've seen program parents do abusive things, and pay to have abusive things done to their child.
This is good that TheWho is posting truthfully about how he finds abuse funny, as sad and disturbing as it may be, it's the only way to show how program parents really are. Sure, some might be ignorant. But most, like TheWho, are sociopathic sadists with the money to implement their demented fantasies.
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From the front page of cafety,
“My therapist stood behind me and whispered things about my rape, while playing the song I was raped to, for 4 consecutive groups sessions…”
Now I wonder how much her parents paid for that cutting-edge therapy... 4k a month? 5k? 6k?
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From the front page of cafety,
“My therapist stood behind me and whispered things about my rape, while playing the song I was raped to, for 4 consecutive groups sessions…”
Now I wonder how much her parents paid for that cutting-edge therapy... 4k a month? 5k? 6k?
An HLA staff mentioned recently here on fornits that about 50% of what kids say about their experience inside a program is "not true". I wonder which category this falls into.
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I wouldn't expect anything less of TheWho. Most program parents consider their child liars, and so naturally they believe all adolescents are habitual liars. They choose to believe what a program staff says over their family member. Again, TheWho proves himself as the typical program parent, ignorant of what really goes on in programs, believing whatever a program staff tells them.
The person who submitted their story, and from which this quote was taken, had been out of the program with no incentive to make such a story up. Yet the parental financiers of the experimental and abusive "therapy" jump through mental hoops of self delusion to maintain their self congratulatory ignorance. Sadly, this is all too common, so leaving home and never contacting the family again is a understandable reaction. After several years, or decades, a few of the more enlightened parents begin to realize their kid was not lying. I'm going to guess TheWho is not a part of that group. He's a lifer.
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From the front page of cafety,
“My therapist stood behind me and whispered things about my rape, while playing the song I was raped to, for 4 consecutive groups sessions…”
Now I wonder how much her parents paid for that cutting-edge therapy... 4k a month? 5k? 6k?
An HLA staff mentioned recently here on fornits that about 50% of what kids say about their experience inside a program is "not true". I wonder which category this falls into.
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Hmmm. Who is a more credible individual: Kat Whitehead or theWho? Yeah.
A survivor could post that 50% of what programs tell parents is lies to cover their asses from liability. You would challenge that statement and demand proof. Yet this staff makes an opinionated statement with nothing to back it and you use it to question a program survivor's credibility?
I'd like to mention that 99% of what theWho posts about programs is "not true". I know this. It is a fact. I wonder where the 1% of truth is.
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A survivor could post that 50% of what programs tell parents is lies to cover their asses from liability. You would challenge that statement and demand proof. Yet this staff makes an opinionated statement with nothing to back it and you use it to question a program survivor's credibility?
It is from a staff person who has left HLA and has moved on.
So, anyway, we have children who are being held accountable maybe for the first time in their lives. Forced to do chores, homework, clean up after themselves, eat healthy, take a shower, go to bed the same time every night. Do you think they will call home and tell their parents the school is abusive? People are not being fair? They don’t feed me? Of course.
So, If you have to choose which person is more apt in this situation to tell the truth would it be a staff person who works with these kids 40+ hours a week or a kid who is desperate to get the hell out of there?
The desperate kid or the program staff?
I don’t think this would make it too far down the debate path once we weigh credibility of statements.
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So, anyway, we have children who are being held accountable maybe for the first time in their lives. Forced to do chores, homework, clean up after themselves, eat healthy, take a shower, go to bed the same time every night. Do you think they will call home and tell their parents the school is abusive? People are not being fair? They don’t feed me? Of course.
This is bullshit. Who the hell would think to complain about THAT. That is normal life, life at any normal school.
NO.. people experience trauma when they have been subjected to their peers turning on them in a maggot-laying frenzy, or when they have been coerced to behave the same way towards others. Not to mention adults doing it too as a matter of course, adults suppsedly superior as far as life experience goes. Then there are the actual physical abuses that occur, when the adults or even kids get too carried away. THOSE are always swept under the rug and its business as usual. And then your told that everything that ever happened to you is a pack of lies. Or they change it, re-fabricate the whole event, LIE through their teeth to cover their sorry asses to protect their sleazy form of livlihood, and change the story to represent the kid as having instigated it all.
Seriously, what sane human being could ever trust the rest of the world again, let alone their parents who chose to believe the PR experts rather than their own flesh and blood.
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It is from a staff person who has left HLA and has moved on.
And.....? What's the point in relation to what she posted to you?
So, anyway, we have children who are being held accountable maybe for the first time in their lives. Forced to do chores, homework, clean up after themselves, eat healthy, take a shower, go to bed the same time every night. Do you think they will call home and tell their parents the school is abusive? People are not being fair? They don’t feed me? Of course.
So, If you have to choose which person is more apt in this situation to tell the truth would it be a staff person who works with these kids 40+ hours a week or a kid who is desperate to get the hell out of there?
The desperate kid or the program staff?
I don’t think this would make it too far down the debate path once we weigh credibility of statements.
Not surprising you would want it to be seen that way, however those of us who have been exposed to this type of "treatment" damn well KNOW it to be abusive and not the harmless 'tough love' that you're so desperately trying to make it out to be.
There's a reason for OUR desperation to get out of there. It's a goddamn abusive nightmare that we couldn't wake up from. Unqualified staff in charge of "treatment" of kids who no one really knows even NEED "treatment". Harass, berate and humiliate and punish them into 'accepting the help'. Mostly, it's uptight parents freaking out over behavioral problems or finding a joint in junior's room. Or the ivy league parents that can't stand to think about junior not becoming a lawyer or doctor. [GASP!!!!!!!!] ::OMG::
What you just said right up there ^^^^ (the lies) is exactly what sells parents on programs. You guys use whatever fear the parent naturally has and capitalize on it. Then you offer them this amazing solution to the spoiled little brats who just don't want to listen to their parents. It's very effective. Dangerous and ultimately extremely unfortunate for those kids who get trapped in there, but effective. Conformity for all, critical thinking for none. ::puke::
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So, If you have to choose which person is more apt in this situation to tell the truth would it be a staff person who works with these kids 40+ hours a week or a kid who is desperate to get the hell out of there?
The desperate kid or the program staff?
I don’t think this would make it too far down the debate path once we weigh credibility of statements.
More elitist crap. The haves vs. the have-nots (adult perspective). At what point do I achieve cred, Who? When I am 30? 40? 50? Cause I'm right up there, in case you wanna know.
I have a face for the world, a most respectable and responsible face. And it is a real face, it IS who I am......but I have these horrible memories buzzing around in my brain, from when I was in program, that make me doubt who I am, and whether I can even go on anymore. Seriously, every day I have a ritual, to "thank g-d or whoever for this wondrous day", cause if I dont, whats buzzing around up there might just get too believable for me and I have responsiblities that I cant afford to shirk. I cant imagine that any parent would knowingly want this for their kid.
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Duct Taped wrote:
I can't even imagine what type of person trolls people telling their testimony of abuse, it's almost unimaginable to me that such a disturbed person would exist. Yet here one is, claiming to be a program parent. That would make sense, since I've seen program parents do abusive things, and pay to have abusive things done to their child.
This is good that TheWho is posting truthfully about how he finds abuse funny, as sad and disturbing as it may be, it's the only way to show how program parents really are. Sure, some might be ignorant. But most, like TheWho, are sociopathic sadists with the money to implement their demented fantasies.
The sad truth to it all is that you have done it to yourselves. You try to have it both ways and it just kills everyones credibility here. You cant accept every story from a poster which shows programs in a negative light as gospel truth and then turn around and discredit and discard every pro-program event or story. Everyone is so desperate to get their version of the negative info out that they forget how foolish they look trying. If you were more confident in what you believe in you would accept and treat all information equally.
The humor, I find, isn’t in the details of every story but in the fact that you believe them all and disbelieve the kids who tell a whole different side. Ask someone who has never been on fornits before to give you feedback. After about the third or fourth page of reading you begin to realize all the information is filtered. Not every car is a lemon not every apple is bruised, we all instinctively know there is natural variation built into every single aspect of life without exception and if anyone tells you otherwise you know them to be a liar.
So I am not laughing at the kid who says he was wrapped in duct tape from head to toe and then thrown into the ocean during the height of a typhoon, I am laughing at you for believing it and taking it at face value and then rejecting the story of a child who comes here to tell everyone how the program they attended changed their life for the better. You are too involved in this to be able to step back and see it for yourself.
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Duct Taped wrote:I can't even imagine what type of person trolls people telling their testimony of abuse, it's almost unimaginable to me that such a disturbed person would exist. Yet here one is, claiming to be a program parent. That would make sense, since I've seen program parents do abusive things, and pay to have abusive things done to their child.
This is good that TheWho is posting truthfully about how he finds abuse funny, as sad and disturbing as it may be, it's the only way to show how program parents really are. Sure, some might be ignorant. But most, like TheWho, are sociopathic sadists with the money to implement their demented fantasies.
The sad truth to it all is that you have done it to yourselves. You try to have it both ways and it just kills everyones credibility here. You cant accept every story from a poster which shows programs in a negative light as gospel truth and then turn around and discredit and discard every pro-program event or story. Everyone is so desperate to get their version of the negative info out that they forget how foolish they look trying. If you were more confident in what you believe in you would accept and treat all information equally.
The humor, I find, isn’t in the details of every story but in the fact that you believe them all and disbelieve the kids who tell a whole different side. Ask someone who has never been on fornits before to give you feedback. After about the third or fourth page of reading you begin to realize all the information is filtered. Not every car is a lemon not every apple is bruised, we all instinctively know there is natural variation built into every single aspect of life without exception and if anyone tells you otherwise you know them to be a liar.
So I am not laughing at the kid who says he was wrapped in duct tape from head to toe and then thrown into the ocean during the height of a typhoon, I am laughing at you for believing it and taking it at face value and then rejecting the story of a child who comes here to tell everyone how the program they attended changed their life for the better. You are too involved in this to be able to step back and see it for yourself.
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This "who" is not the regular "who." This who’s writing style is different. I guess the who is lou woodbury, then man who tortured and murdered helpless young adults and cedu, and his wife. Thewho is definitely a group effort.
Why are we not allowed to post images and this filthy youth murderer allowed to post?
I thought he “sold” his login identity?
If you want to post his I.P. I will give you his name. Seriously. This absurdity has to stop
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Duct Taped wrote:I can't even imagine what type of person trolls people telling their testimony of abuse, it's almost unimaginable to me that such a disturbed person would exist. Yet here one is, claiming to be a program parent. That would make sense, since I've seen program parents do abusive things, and pay to have abusive things done to their child.
This is good that TheWho is posting truthfully about how he finds abuse funny, as sad and disturbing as it may be, it's the only way to show how program parents really are. Sure, some might be ignorant. But most, like TheWho, are sociopathic sadists with the money to implement their demented fantasies.
The sad truth to it all is that you have done it to yourselves. You try to have it both ways and it just kills everyones credibility here. You cant accept every story from a poster which shows programs in a negative light as gospel truth and then turn around and discredit and discard every pro-program event or story. Everyone is so desperate to get their version of the negative info out that they forget how foolish they look trying. If you were more confident in what you believe in you would accept and treat all information equally.
The humor, I find, isn’t in the details of every story but in the fact that you believe them all and disbelieve the kids who tell a whole different side. Ask someone who has never been on fornits before to give you feedback. After about the third or fourth page of reading you begin to realize all the information is filtered. Not every car is a lemon not every apple is bruised, we all instinctively know there is natural variation built into every single aspect of life without exception and if anyone tells you otherwise you know them to be a liar.
So I am not laughing at the kid who says he was wrapped in duct tape from head to toe and then thrown into the ocean during the height of a typhoon, I am laughing at you for believing it and taking it at face value and then rejecting the story of a child who comes here to tell everyone how the program they attended changed their life for the better. You are too involved in this to be able to step back and see it for yourself.
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Uhuh, but you freak, "programs" are a bit different than cars. They are supposedly medical treatments. No scientificly valid proof has EVER been provided that proves ANY program does anything but HURT its detainees. Because we are sepaking of MEDICAL TREATMENTS, not cars, minus proof of sucess we can assuredly say that NO porgram works. You can't say you've cured cancer without proof and you can't say you've treated mental illness without proof. Thus, no program works.
Further, because "programs" abduct and hold prisoner youth without due process, serving as rentable gulags, we can further say they are all bad, as they are all commit that crime, that traumatizing violation, that mentally degrading exploiation, prima facie. You murderer, you sleazy, freaky child killer.
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Okay, who gave DASD a tin foil hat?
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Further, because "programs" abduct and hold prisoner youth without due process, serving as rentable gulags, we can further say they are all bad, as they are all commit that crime, that traumatizing violation, that mentally degrading exploiation, prima facie.
Agreed.
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A survivor could post that 50% of what programs tell parents is lies to cover their asses from liability. You would challenge that statement and demand proof. Yet this staff makes an opinionated statement with nothing to back it and you use it to question a program survivor's credibility?
It is from a staff person who has left HLA and has moved on.
So, anyway, we have children who are being held accountable maybe for the first time in their lives. Forced to do chores, homework, clean up after themselves, eat healthy, take a shower, go to bed the same time every night. Do you think they will call home and tell their parents the school is abusive? People are not being fair? They don’t feed me? Of course.
So, If you have to choose which person is more apt in this situation to tell the truth would it be a staff person who works with these kids 40+ hours a week or a kid who is desperate to get the hell out of there?
The desperate kid or the program staff?
I don’t think this would make it too far down the debate path once we weigh credibility of statements.
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Sometimes the staff are the desperate ones facing criminal charges, but they're automatically believed? You're gullible and an easily led sheep. Your blanket defense that kids are lying and program staff are always trustworthy is more than naive, it's moronic and reckless.
Not all kids are sent to RTC's because they're fucking up. Anorexics, depressives, kids with ADHD and you're assuming they're all lazy punks who are going to claim they're being harmed to get out? Shit. Tell that to the dead kids who were never heard. Some kids actually participate in picking a program. You know that, don't you? So they start lying to "escape"? You really are obtuse.
And again: If the kid says they're being harmed, reporting the allegation is MANDATORY in all fifty states. It's mandatory for the parents to report it despite the programs dismissal of such claims as manipulation. There are too many dead kids. Why would any parent take your attitude that their kids are automatically lying? Not everyone is going to be a sheep like you and blindly follow what strangers in an RTC say over their children. That kind of blind faith is stupid, who, and by encouraging parents to disregard their child's reports of abuse you are encouraging them to break the law. If a kid reported being physically harmed in an RTC to his parents or staff and then died from abuse I would want the parents charged with negligent homicide, failure to report abuse allegations. I'd like to see staff who kill held accountable and sentenced accordingly for homicide. It didn't happen in Brendan Blum's case. The people who let Brendan lay there all night in agony before dying walked. The people who were paid to be responsible for him denied responsibility and no one answered for the negligence thal killed Brendan.
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Okay, who gave DASD a tin foil hat?
I hate the "tin foil hat" expression. Tell ya what, who not logged in. Since you spend so much time writing here, you nutty cult shill, learn a new cliche?
But which part of dasd's post do you think is crazy? The part about science demanding proof of effectiveness and safety before allowing a group to claim a ritual or pill is "treatment."
Be glad your ignorance is not shared by scientists, or you'd be drinking urine to treat your breast cancer, or "vapers" as we'd think of it.
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Not all kids are sent to RTC's because they're fucking up. Anorexics, depressives, kids with ADHD and you're assuming they're all lazy punks who are going to claim they're being harmed to get out? Shit. Tell that to the dead kids who were never heard. Some kids actually participate in picking a program. You know that, don't you? So they start lying to "escape"? You really are obtuse.
And again: If the kid says they're being harmed, reporting the allegation is MANDATORY in all fifty states. It's mandatory for the parents to report it despite the programs dismissal of such claims as manipulation. There are too many dead kids. Why would any parent take your attitude that their kids are automatically lying? Not everyone is going to be a sheep like you and blindly follow what strangers in an RTC say over their children. That kind of blind faith is stupid, who, and by encouraging parents to disregard their child's reports of abuse you are encouraging them to break the law. If a kid reported being physically harmed in an RTC to his parents or staff and then died from abuse I would want the parents charged with negligent homicide, failure to report abuse allegations. I'd like to see staff who kill held accountable and sentenced accordingly for homicide. It didn't happen in Brendan Blum's case. The people who let Brendan lay there all night in agony before dying walked. The people who were paid to be responsible for him denied responsibility and no one answered for the negligence thal killed Brendan.
It's good to hear this stated so plainly and succinctly; well said.
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Sometimes the staff are the desperate ones facing criminal charges, but they're automatically believed? You're gullible and an easily led sheep.
Yes, sometimes. There is natural variation in all situations. We see the crooked cop, judge, priest etc. Just because we tend to believe a police officer or students teacher doesn’t mean we are being mislead.
Your blanket defense that kids are lying and program staff are always trustworthy is more than naive, it's moronic and reckless.
Not saying all kids are lying. I am saying the kids are in a position where they feel uncomfortable and powerless compared to their previous lives. We all know what desparate people tend to do.
Not all kids are sent to RTC's because they're fucking up. Anorexics, depressives, kids with ADHD and you're assuming they're all lazy punks who are going to claim they're being harmed to get out? Shit. Tell that to the dead kids who were never heard. Some kids actually participate in picking a program. You know that, don't you? So they start lying to "escape"? You really are obtuse.
Every child is different and some do not belong in residential treatment. I believe it would help to have a third party sign off on all placements. This would help alleviate those kids being placed that should not be there.
And again: If the kid says they're being harmed, reporting the allegation is MANDATORY in all fifty states. It's mandatory for the parents to report it despite the programs dismissal of such claims as manipulation.
Exactly, if a child says they are being harmed then sure any parent would report it. I am talking about the kids who are not willing to work and may fabricate stories to try to get out.
There are too many dead kids.
1 child is too many in my opinion.
Why would any parent take your attitude that their kids are automatically lying? Not everyone is going to be a sheep like you and blindly follow what strangers in an RTC say over their children. That kind of blind faith is stupid, who, and by encouraging parents to disregard their child's reports of abuse you are encouraging them to break the law. If a kid reported being physically harmed in an RTC to his parents or staff and then died from abuse I would want the parents charged with negligent homicide, failure to report abuse allegations.
I believe any parent who feels their child is in danger would call the authorities, pull their child immediately. I know I would.
I'd like to see staff who kill held accountable and sentenced accordingly for homicide. It didn't happen in Brendan Blum's case. The people who let Brendan lay there all night in agony before dying walked. The people who were paid to be responsible for him denied responsibility and no one answered for the negligence thal killed Brendan.
That was tragic situation, indeed. But not all situations are the same, not every school is a columbine or every teacher a rapist. We cant just shut down the entire industry because of a few bad apples. We cant shut down the police force because of crooked cops or public schools because of abusive teachers. We need to keep working to make these places safe.
If you bought a bad bag of weed would you want to kill the dealer? Bomb Columbia? Wipe out every dealer on the planet? Maybe if a loved one died you would! And it would be a normal reaction. So I am able to see why people get this upset. But, unlike many here, I also see the benefit these schools and programs have provided to many kids and their families. These are the stories you do not read about here on fornits.
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Sometimes the staff are the desperate ones facing criminal charges, but they're automatically believed? You're gullible and an easily led sheep.
Yes, sometimes. There is natural variation in all situations. We see the crooked cop, judge, priest etc. Just because we tend to believe a police officer or students teacher doesn’t mean we are being mislead.
Your blanket defense that kids are lying and program staff are always trustworthy is more than naive, it's moronic and reckless.
Not saying all kids are lying. I am saying the kids are in a position where they feel uncomfortable and powerless compared to their previous lives. We all know what desparate people tend to do.
Not all kids are sent to RTC's because they're fucking up. Anorexics, depressives, kids with ADHD and you're assuming they're all lazy punks who are going to claim they're being harmed to get out? Shit. Tell that to the dead kids who were never heard. Some kids actually participate in picking a program. You know that, don't you? So they start lying to "escape"? You really are obtuse.
Every child is different and some do not belong in residential treatment. I believe it would help to have a third party sign off on all placements. This would help alleviate those kids being placed that should not be there.
And again: If the kid says they're being harmed, reporting the allegation is MANDATORY in all fifty states. It's mandatory for the parents to report it despite the programs dismissal of such claims as manipulation.
Exactly, if a child says they are being harmed then sure any parent would report it. I am talking about the kids who are not willing to work and may fabricate stories to try to get out.
There are too many dead kids.
1 child is too many in my opinion.
Why would any parent take your attitude that their kids are automatically lying? Not everyone is going to be a sheep like you and blindly follow what strangers in an RTC say over their children. That kind of blind faith is stupid, who, and by encouraging parents to disregard their child's reports of abuse you are encouraging them to break the law. If a kid reported being physically harmed in an RTC to his parents or staff and then died from abuse I would want the parents charged with negligent homicide, failure to report abuse allegations.
I believe any parent who feels their child is in danger would call the authorities, pull their child immediately. I know I would.
I'd like to see staff who kill held accountable and sentenced accordingly for homicide. It didn't happen in Brendan Blum's case. The people who let Brendan lay there all night in agony before dying walked. The people who were paid to be responsible for him denied responsibility and no one answered for the negligence thal killed Brendan.
That was tragic situation, indeed. But not all situations are the same, not every school is a columbine or every teacher a rapist. We cant just shut down the entire industry because of a few bad apples. We cant shut down the police force because of crooked cops or public schools because of abusive teachers. We need to keep working to make these places safe.
If you bought a bad bag of weed would you want to kill the dealer? Bomb Columbia? Wipe out every dealer on the planet? Maybe if a loved one died you would! And it would be a normal reaction. So I am able to see why people get this upset. But, unlike many here, I also see the benefit these schools and programs have provided to many kids and their families. These are the stories you do not read about here on fornits.
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Child murderer, please name one program that "works."
Please direct me to one medically sound, peer review study that has proved the effectiveness of any program. Please, please do that.
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I believe any parent who feels their child is in danger would call the authorities, pull their child immediately. I know I would.
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What????
So, If you have to choose which person is more apt in this situation to tell the truth would it be a staff person who works with these kids 40+ hours a week or a kid who is desperate to get the hell out of there?
The desperate kid or the program staff?
I don’t think this would make it too far down the debate path once we weigh credibility of statements.
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Huh. Sounds like you're very confused. How would you know your child is in danger if you use that logic to "weigh credibility of statements"? Parents aren't allowed to see their kids for a considerable length of time in some programs, they only have short phone calls. You say one thing to look like you give a shit and aren't a soulless bitch, but ^^^^^^^^see above. You're going to gamble with your kids well being and assume the actions of a line staff goon you've never seen are professional. Moron. Quit spouting your reckless shit, some parent as dumb as you might take your advice. Be accountable for your posts you most pungent cunt.
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Huh. Sounds like you're very confused. How would you know your child is in danger if you use that logic to "weigh credibility of statements"? Parents aren't allowed to see their kids for a considerable length of time in some programs, they only have short phone calls.
It only takes a few minutes to rape or kill a child. It could happen on a school bus, walking home. I think what a parent needs to do is visit the program campus, speak to other parents who had kids attend and then base their decision on some informed data.
You say one thing to look like you give a shit and aren't a soulless bitch, but ^^^^^^^^see above. You're going to gamble with your kids well being and assume the actions of a line staff goon you've never seen are professional. Moron. Quit spouting your reckless shit, some parent as dumb as you might take your advice. Be accountable for your posts you most pungent cunt.
I have been very consistent. You on the other hand don’t seem very professional or concerned with any of these kids welfare or you would be helping instead of blocking any kids from getting help.
@dfdf:
Please direct me to one medically sound, peer review study that has proved the effectiveness of any program. Please, please do that.
Why not try to provide evidence or a study the concludes attending a public school is a safer environment that a TBS. Try to convince a parent that their child will not be harmed on the bus or shot at school or bullied.
If you cant do that then provide me one public school in which a child was never abused.
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I believe any parent who feels their child is in danger would call the authorities, pull their child immediately. I know I would.
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What????
So, If you have to choose which person is more apt in this situation to tell the truth would it be a staff person who works with these kids 40+ hours a week or a kid who is desperate to get the hell out of there?
The desperate kid or the program staff?
I don’t think this would make it too far down the debate path once we weigh credibility of statements.
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Huh. Sounds like you're very confused. How would you know your child is in danger if you use that logic to "weigh credibility of statements"? Parents aren't allowed to see their kids for a considerable length of time in some programs, they only have short phone calls. You say one thing to look like you give a shit and aren't a soulless bitch, but ^^^^^^^^see above. You're going to gamble with your kids well being and assume the actions of a line staff goon you've never seen are professional. Moron. Quit spouting your reckless shit, some parent as dumb as you might take your advice. Be accountable for your posts you most pungent cunt.
That tells you all you need to know about the who's understanding of how captives in programs are treated. Note: therapy isn't something so "intolerably horrible" "actuating little or no hope" that you'd make a "final, ultimate, dangerous" attempt to escape it, but prison and torture is. Yes, I'd say "programs" (rentable gulags) make kids truly desperate and they'd do anything to escape it, even commit suicide like L.C., or J, from cedu, the torture cult that Lon Woodbury and Steve Laird oversaw
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Huh. Sounds like you're very confused. How would you know your child is in danger if you use that logic to "weigh credibility of statements"? Parents aren't allowed to see their kids for a considerable length of time in some programs, they only have short phone calls.
It only takes a few minutes to rape or kill a child. It could happen on a school bus, walking home. I think what a parent needs to do is visit the program campus, speak to other parents who had kids attend and then base their decision on some informed data.
You say one thing to look like you give a shit and aren't a soulless bitch, but ^^^^^^^^see above. You're going to gamble with your kids well being and assume the actions of a line staff goon you've never seen are professional. Moron. Quit spouting your reckless shit, some parent as dumb as you might take your advice. Be accountable for your posts you most pungent cunt.
I have been very consistent. You on the other hand don’t seem very professional or concerned with any of these kids welfare or you would be helping instead of blocking any kids from getting help.
@dfdf:
Please direct me to one medically sound, peer review study that has proved the effectiveness of any program. Please, please do that.
Why not try to provide evidence or a study the concludes attending a public school is a safer environment that a TBS. Try to convince a parent that their child will not be harmed on the bus or shot at school or bullied.
If you cant do that then provide me one public school in which a child was never abused.
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Who you were unwilling or unable to name one "program" that is helpful, and you were unable or unwilling to provide scientific proof that one program provides medically valid treatment.
thank you. you've resolved your "controversy" for us.
Just want to add, this isn't the same who that normally posts Lou Woodbury or whoever is who's regular mouthpeice. The prose style and approach is totally different
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Who you were unwilling or unable to name one "program" that is helpful, and you were unable or unwilling to provide scientific proof that one program provides medically valid treatment.
thank you. you've resolved your "controversy" for us.
Just want to add, this isn't the same who that normally posts Lou Woodbury or whoever is who's regular mouthpeice. The prose style and approach is totally different
Kind a thought you would back off once I asked you for evidence. Based on your logic every public school is a columbine waiting to happen. Would you want your kid verbally abused by a killer and then shot? Look at the body count? Try saying public school is safer than a TBS to those kids who died.
Sdgs,You are twisted and sick and must be an abuser yourself to think that way. How can you just put your kid on a bus and drive happily to work. They are unfit parents all of them, just shipping their kids off like that to potentially be raped by a teacher or killed by fellow students.
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Posted almost 7 hours ago, link here (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=25925&start=15#p316451):
Ha,Ha,Ha you have been here for awhile!! Remember that guy who claimed he was duct taped from head to toe and then carried down to the ocean during a monsoon and thrown in!!! Talk about trying to get attention. Looking back now I think if he toned his story down a little and told us he was forced to carry wood around or study for hours on end he would have got a few people to believe him. But I do think that is the overall classic fabricated story I have heard here.
Posted a little over 2 hours ago, link here (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=25925&start=30#p316476):
So I am not laughing at the kid who says he was wrapped in duct tape from head to toe and then thrown into the ocean during the height of a typhoon, I am laughing at you for believing it and taking it at face value and then rejecting the story of a child who comes here to tell everyone how the program they attended changed their life for the better. You are too involved in this to be able to step back and see it for yourself.
So.....WHICH is it, huh?
Posted about 15 minutes ago, see above:
I have been very consistent.
Yes. He/she laughs.
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It only takes a few minutes to rape or kill a child. It could happen on a school bus, walking home.
Well. You're paying the program to keep them safe, aren't you? You're saying the risk of a school bus ride or walking down a public street is the same as the risk in a program? How can you compare what is supposed to be a structured, secure environment with 24/7 oversight to the horrors of the bad old outside world? Man, I hope no guests read your imbecilic posts and leave before someone points out why you're a cretin.
You on the other hand don’t seem very professional
That's because I'm not a professional. Thanks for reminding me that you are.
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Who you were unwilling or unable to name one "program" that is helpful, and you were unable or unwilling to provide scientific proof that one program provides medically valid treatment.
thank you. you've resolved your "controversy" for us.
Just want to add, this isn't the same who that normally posts Lou Woodbury or whoever is who's regular mouthpeice. The prose style and approach is totally different
Kind a thought you would back off once I asked you for evidence. Based on your logic every public school is a columbine waiting to happen. Would you want your kid verbally abused by a killer and then shot? Look at the body count? Try saying public school is safer than a TBS to those kids who died.
Sdgs,You are twisted and sick and must be an abuser yourself to think that way. How can you just put your kid on a bus and drive happily to work. They are unfit parents all of them, just shipping their kids off like that to potentially be raped by a teacher or killed by fellow students.
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You're carrying on a "conversation" with a couple different people, torturer, murderer. I never said public school is safer than a TBS (they are, though, in the way public school is safer than Auschwitz or Abu Gharib)
I see you continue to evade naming even ONE program that's effective and non-abusive, i see you continue to be unable to produce ONE peer reviewed scientifically valid study proving and "program" is effective.
As one needs proof to assert a medical treatment as valid, we've settled that no "program" is therapeutic, or can be considered treatment.
Thanks, new who. You are less competent at spinning for the cult than the last who, youth murderer.
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Who you were unwilling or unable to name one "program" that is helpful, and you were unable or unwilling to provide scientific proof that one program provides medically valid treatment.
thank you. you've resolved your "controversy" for us.
Just want to add, this isn't the same who that normally posts Lou Woodbury or whoever is who's regular mouthpeice. The prose style and approach is totally different
Kind a thought you would back off once I asked you for evidence. Based on your logic every public school is a columbine waiting to happen. Would you want your kid verbally abused by a killer and then shot? Look at the body count? Try saying public school is safer than a TBS to those kids who died.
Sdgs,You are twisted and sick and must be an abuser yourself to think that way. How can you just put your kid on a bus and drive happily to work. They are unfit parents all of them, just shipping their kids off like that to potentially be raped by a teacher or killed by fellow students.
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You're carrying on a "conversation" with a couple different people, torturer, murderer. I never said public school is safer than a TBS (they are, though, in the way public school is safer than Auschwitz or Abu Gharib)
I see you continue to evade naming even ONE program that's effective and non-abusive, i see you continue to be unable to produce ONE peer reviewed scientifically valid study proving ONE "program" is effective.
As one needs proof to assert a medical treatment as valid, we've settled that no "program" is therapeutic, or can be considered treatment.
Thanks, new who. You are less competent at spinning for the cult than the last who, youth murderer.
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Discusted wrote:
Well. You're paying the program to keep them safe, aren't you?
Paying either way, public school isn’t free
You're saying the risk of a school bus ride or walking down a public street is the same as the risk in a program?
You need to weigh each risk. Many here on fornits believe TBS’s to be less safe than public school. I believe differently.
How can you compare what is supposed to be a structured, secure environment with 24/7 oversight to the horrors of the bad old outside world?
You just did. One is secure and the other is not. That has been my point all along and I have provided data , in the past, to support my position.
Man, I hope no guests read your imbecilic posts and leave before someone points out why you're a cretin.
well, that is thoughtful, I guess, but but unlike you I am more concerned with getting balanced information to parents.
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ghf Wrte:
You're carrying on a "conversation" with a couple different people, torturer, murderer. I never said public school is safer than a TBS (they are, though, in the way public school is safer than Auschwitz or Abu Gharib)
I am torturer the other guy is murderer, I believe. But it is good to see you have a sense of humor. You wouldn’t believe how many here have a stick up their ass half the time..... Abu Gharib LOL.
I see you continue to evade naming even ONE program that's effective and non-abusive, i see you continue to be unable to produce ONE peer reviewed scientifically valid study proving and "program" is effective.
Its impossible, all that needs to happen is some kid comes out and says they were yelled at and then that school/TBS/RTC will be branded abusive. You haven’t been around here too long. Stick around you will see what I mean. Name a public school that is not abusive!! Ha,Ha,Ha see what I mean? There are tens of thousands of them in the US and I am sure no one could name even one..
As one needs proof to assert a medical treatment as valid, we've settled that no "program" is therapeutic, or can be considered treatment.
Conclusions are great and I am happy for you. Although I have seen the bigger picture and the successes first hand, don’t need to see on the news.
Thanks, new who. You are less competent at spinning for the cult than the last who, youth murderer.
Thank you, thats all we need is more spinning here on fornits. Lets stick with the facts and get the families some balanced information for a change. I think we may be entering a new era.
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You missed one, reprobate:
You on the other hand don’t seem very professional
That's because I'm not a professional. Thanks for reminding me that you are.
Public schools v. RTC's. Both are paid for, yes. Public schools don't take 60-100K per annum tuition. RTC's are supposed to be safe alternatives to the dangers and temptations of public schools. That's how parents get talked into paying out the ass for programs. They want 24/7 watch.
Public schools: Everyone is aware of the risks. Unfortunately there aren't a lot of alternatives available to families without the resources to pay for boarding schools. Pull your head out of your smug ass and look around: RTC's are a place where affluent shithead parents can legally abandon their kids by signing custody over to a program to warehouse them until they hit the age of majority. Programs know that and a lot of the parents couldn't give a shit about what goes on in an RTC as long as the kid is GONE along with the stress of having to be a parent.
RTC's: America's nasty secret. One big difference between abuse in a public school and in a program is what happens to the offenders. Public teachers get fired and their licenses are yanked, their careers in education are over and jail is a strong possibility. Program staff get charges dismissed and go work at another program, no problem.
Hang it up Who. The economy is going to tank and you will have to find new work. Without disposable income parents won't be able to dispose of their kids so easily. Guess they'll have to buckle down and get involved with their kids problems. Sucks, huh?
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Public schools v. RTC's. Both are paid for, yes. Public schools don't take 60-100K per annum tuition. RTC's are supposed to be safe alternatives to the dangers and temptations of public schools. That's how parents get talked into paying out the ass for programs. They want 24/7 watch.
I believe that is what makes them safer, the 24/7 aspect.
Public schools: Everyone is aware of the risks. Unfortunately there aren't a lot of alternatives available to families without the resources to pay for boarding schools. Pull your head out of your smug ass and look around: RTC's are a place where affluent shithead parents can legally abandon their kids by signing custody over to a program to warehouse them until they hit the age of majority. Programs know that and a lot of the parents couldn't give a shit about what goes on in an RTC as long as the kid is GONE along with the stress of having to be a parent.
You have been grossly miss informed. The programs have a preset time line, the child is placed on course to graduate and they expect the parents to be involved (no dumping allowed). Pull a few programs at random and check their requirnments/ talk to admissions you will see what I mean. Some parents may just let their kids run down hill on the streets and hope they live thru it.
RTC's: America's nasty secret. One big difference between abuse in a public school and in a program is what happens to the offenders. Public teachers get fired and their licenses are yanked, their careers in education are over and jail is a strong possibility. Program staff get charges dismissed and go work at another program, no problem.
Again you seem to be miss informed. The staff are subjected to the laws of the state they are working in like everyone else. They are not insulated by tenure or teachers unions like the public school teachers are. You should read up on this it is an important issue.
Hang it up Who. The economy is going to tank and you will have to find new work.
I hear ya, much of my income is fairly insulated against the down turn although I think we will all feel the pinch at some point. Thanks for the concern though. How are you set up? okay?
Without disposable income parents won't be able to dispose of their kids so easily. Guess they'll have to buckle down and get involved with their kids problems. Sucks, huh?
Yup, It will be interesting to see if the crime rate and death rate of teens increases as enrolments in TBS’s drop off.
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You have been grossly miss informed.
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Again you seem to be miss informed.
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Dam(n) it. That's what I get for listening to Miss Information.
How much do you drink, if you don't mind my asking? Your ability to spell takes a noticeable downturn in the evenings. You also become a little goofy.
I'm not American. Your loss will probably be my gain thanks to your current President's idiocy.
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Your ability to spell takes a noticeable downturn in the evenings. You also become a little goofy.
prolly all depends on who is on shift. maybe the late night person who posts as the Who is not a very good speller.
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Discusted wrote:
Well. You're paying the program to keep them safe, aren't you?
Paying either way, public school isn’t free
You're saying the risk of a school bus ride or walking down a public street is the same as the risk in a program?
You need to weigh each risk. Many here on fornits believe TBS’s to be less safe than public school. I believe differently.
How can you compare what is supposed to be a structured, secure environment with 24/7 oversight to the horrors of the bad old outside world?
You just did. One is secure and the other is not. That has been my point all along and I have provided data , in the past, to support my position.
Man, I hope no guests read your imbecilic posts and leave before someone points out why you're a cretin.
well, that is thoughtful, I guess, but but unlike you I am more concerned with getting balanced information to parents.
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I just want to point out that this new "who" is obviously unaware of the very very long thread where "he/she" participated in an altercation in which it was proved that programs are more likely to murder a kid, than a kid is likely to die in a public school.
It had all the figures and statistics in it. I'm too lazy... anyone want to find and bump that thread? Pysborgue, please?
I won't point out the absurdity of the who's idea that people should be forced into rentable prisons in order to keep them safe from crime, either. If anyone wants to do that be my guest.
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Its impossible, all that needs to happen is some kid comes out and says they were yelled at and then that school/TBS/RTC will be branded abusive. You haven’t been around here too long. Stick around you will see what I mean. Name a public school that is not abusive!! Ha,Ha,Ha see what I mean? There are tens of thousands of them in the US and I am sure no one could name even one..
No, you incompetent wretch. Proof a “program” works is not affected by reports of abuse in that “program.” Scientific validity of a treatment is not dependant on its potential practitioners.
To illustrate: it has been proved chemotherapy works. People have been abused by chemo dispensers, but that doesn’t disprove chemo’s effectiveness.
On the other hand, not ONE, not even ONE program has EVER been documented by scientific methodology and proofs as doing ANYTHING but HARMING participants.
Why in 60 years has not ONE program ever been proved effective? Because the individuals that run these programs are disciples of the Synanon, Scientology, and EST cults and their mutated reincarnations, and they are quite aware that their rendition centers do nothing but hurt their victims, and so not only fail to provide proof of their scam’s effectiveness, but fail to even keep records of which helpless individuals they “treat.”
Youth disappear into these facilities, many never to return, like morning dew in the afternoon. Predators like Mel Sembler, Mel Wasserman, Steve Laird, Rudy Bentz, Jill Bentz, Guy Bonnano, Patrick Stambusky, Russ DeckerTim Brace Mike Desisto know that physically sexually, psychologically torturing young adults for years is not beneficial, and that leaving a trail that would lead investigators to mass graves would not assist their scam.
That’s why even YOU, their latest, least effective attempt to hide their crimes, cannot refer to even ONE program that has been scientifically proved to do anything but harm it’s participants.
Oh, every single school I ever went to never abused anyone. In programs it’s not the staff that abuses the kids, it’s the program itself. Programs are systems or torture and brainwashing like how Chinese Prisons “treating” practitioners of Fulan Gong are systems of torture and brainwashing. Torture does not stem from the individual staff, it is the “treatment” itself.
Here’s one of my schools :Kendall High. No one was ever abused by that school. Feel free to look it up and disprove me.
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No, you incompetent wretch.
Jane!! you ignorant slut!!
Proof a “program” works is not affected by reports of abuse in that “program.” Scientific validity of a treatment is not dependant on its potential practitioners.
To illustrate: it has been proved chemotherapy works. People have been abused by chemo dispensers, but that doesn’t disprove chemo’s effectiveness.
Thank you. You are the first person I have spoken to that can see the abuse comes from the individuals and is not a reflection of the industry as a whole. You would not believe how many people have trouble with this.
On the other hand, not ONE, not even ONE program has EVER been documented by scientific methodology and proofs as doing ANYTHING but HARMING participants.
There have been studies conducted in the past which have shown programs to be effective and not harmful to anyone.
Why in 60 years has not ONE program ever been proved effective?
Maybe because you get all your information from fornits. I agree that there have not been many studies that I have read. But there isn’t any evidence that these programs are ineffective or abusive either.
Because the individuals that run these programs are disciples of the Synanon, Scientology, and EST cults and their mutated reincarnations, and they are quite aware that their rendition centers do nothing but hurt their victims, and so not only fail to provide proof of their scam’s effectiveness, but fail to even keep records of which helpless individuals they “treat.”
Youth disappear into these facilities, many never to return, like morning dew in the afternoon. Predators like Mel Sembler, Mel Wasserman, Steve Laird, Rudy Bentz, Jill Bentz, Guy Bonnano, Patrick Stambusky, Russ DeckerTim Brace Mike Desisto know that physically sexually, psychologically torturing young adults for years is not beneficial, and that leaving a trail that would lead investigators to mass graves would not assist their scam.
Woah, scarry stuff.
That’s why even YOU, their latest, least effective attempt to hide their crimes, cannot refer to even ONE program that has been scientifically proved to do anything but harm it’s participants.
There was some research done awhile back by someone named Shapiro out of one of the ivy league schools who conducted a study of TBS and found it to be effective.. non abusive. It is a good read, I will try to find a link. There also was a Pulitzer prize winner who spent a year and a half inside a TBS and reported on the daily events and followed a peer group from beginning to end. He wrote a book on his experience. You wont read about it here on fornits because they don’t want you to know about this stuff. You will only have access to the negative information about programs here
Oh, every single school I ever went to never abused anyone. In programs it’s not the staff that abuses the kids, it’s the program itself. Programs are systems or torture and brainwashing like how Chinese Prisons “treating” practitioners of Fulan Gong are systems of torture and brainwashing. Torture does not stem from the individual staff, it is the “treatment” itself.
Sorry Cant agree there, I have been inside of programs, talked to people who went there, worked there, graduated from them, wrote books on them, conducted research etc. and no sign of any torture , brainwashing. (Well, maybe a little on the financial end of the business but it is undocumented)
Here’s one of my schools :Kendall High. No one was ever abused by that school. Feel free to look it up and disprove me.
So in the history of that school, not one student was ever hazed, ridiculed by a teacher or peer, forced to run laps by a gym teacher, embarrassed publically, humiliated, forced to go to group events. If you think that to be true you are easily fooled.
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Does anyone else question why theWho spends all of his days and nights posting on fornits? It seems very strange to me for a parent to spend so much time countering the testimony of and endless stream of abuse victims that come through fornits at any given time. When all his posts are deleted, I wonder if he will feel like he wasted his time? Or was pushing people's buttons for sociopathic fun all he ever wanted?
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Does anyone else question why theWho spends all of his days and nights posting on fornits?
Yes.
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Does anyone else question why theWho spends all of his days and nights posting on fornits? It seems very strange to me for a parent to spend so much time countering the testimony of and endless stream of abuse victims that come through fornits at any given time. When all his posts are deleted, I wonder if he will feel like he wasted his time? Or was pushing people's buttons for sociopathic fun all he ever wanted?
I think it is pretty safe to assume that the interest is primarily economic. Whether it is true or not that "he" is also a parent, is of but marginal importance.
Although I am sure "he" derives some sociopathological fun out of all this, were he a true sociopath, he would have "lost it" by now.
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There have been studies conducted in the past which have shown programs to be effective and not harmful to anyone.
[citation required]
But there isn’t any evidence that these programs are ineffective or abusive either.
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency ... 001518.htm (http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/001518.htm)
http://psychobulletin.blogspot.com/2008 ... ssion.html (http://psychobulletin.blogspot.com/2008/08/adolescent-depression.html)
THERAPY
Family therapy may be helpful if family conflict is contributing to the depression. Support from family or teachers to help with school problems may also be needed. Occasionally, hospitalization in a psychiatric unit may be required for individuals with severe depression, or if they are at risk of suicide.
Because of the behavior problems that often co-exist with adolescent depression, many parents are tempted to send their child to a "boot camp", "wilderness program", or "emotional growth school."
These programs often use non-medical staff, confrontational therapies, and harsh punishments. There is no scientific evidence to support such programs. In fact, there is a growing body of research which suggests that they can actually harm sensitive teens with depression.
Depressed teens who act out may also become involved with the criminal justice system. Parents are often advised not to intervene, but to "let them experience consequences."
Unfortunately, this can also harm teens through exposure to more deviant peers and reduction in educational opportunities. A better solution is to get the best possible legal advice and search for treatment on your own, which gives parents more control over techniques used and options.
Though a large percentage of teens in the criminal justice system have mental disorders like depression, few juvenile prisons, "boot camps" or other "alternative to prison" programs provide adequate treatment.
http://consensus.nih.gov/2004/2004Youth ... 23html.htm (http://consensus.nih.gov/2004/2004YouthViolencePreventionSOS023html.htm)
The evidence indicates that “scare tactics” don’t work and there is some evidence that they may make the problem worse rather than simply not working. One of the hazards of the juvenile court system is the impact of having a record on the child’s subsequent life course. Such evidence as there is indicates that group detention centers, boot camps, and other “get tough” programs can provide an opportunity for delinquent youth to amplify negative effects on each other. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has reviewed evidence that indicates that laws increasing the ease of transferring juveniles to the adult judicial system are counterproductive and lead to greater violence in the juveniles moving through the adult systems without deterring juveniles in the general population from violent crime.
In other fields, it has been shown that identifying children as being at risk has its own hazards. Labeling a child as deficient in some respect may lead to a self-fulfilling prophecy. Researchers must be certain that similar problems do not happen here.
Ineffective programs may not harm the participants directly (although some do) but they may have an important toxic effect nonetheless; namely the “opportunity cost” of funds misspent on an unsuitable program that might have been spent on an effective one.
There was some research done awhile back by someone named Shapiro out of one of the ivy league schools who conducted a study of TBS and found it to be effective.. non abusive.
You know damn well it was a grad student's paper.....not clinical research.
There also was a Pulitzer prize winner who spent a year and a half inside a TBS and reported on the daily events and followed a peer group from beginning to end. He wrote a book on his experience. You wont read about it here on fornits because they don’t want you to know about this stuff. You will only have access to the negative information about programs here
David Marcus' book is what you're referring to and you know damn well that he is a PAID CONSULTANT for the program he profiled.
Sorry Cant agree there, I have been inside of programs, talked to people who went there, worked there, graduated from them, wrote books on them, conducted research etc. and no sign of any torture , brainwashing.
Liar. You have NEVER been inside a program the way a kid has. You have NEVER experienced the quack "therapy" that is practiced inside them. You've been presented with plenty of evidence of torture. You just flat refuse to accept it.
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So it seems we go round and round!! We all know there has been research and books written that support the fact that programs are effective but the information is not accepted because it is not negative enough.
Dave Marcus was working for a newspaper and researched and wrote the book independently. The same with Shapiro. She researched a TBS and wrote a research paper on it and found the kids benefitted from their stay as did Marcus. If either one of these sources had turned out negative they would have made the book list or been sticked at the top.
We all know this.
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Liar. You have NEVER been inside a program the way a kid has. You have NEVER experienced the quack "therapy" that is practiced inside them. You've been presented with plenty of evidence of torture. You just flat refuse to accept it.
more bullshit
Ah, But kids haven’t seen the inside from my perspective either!! You are misinformed again. The therapist was independent of the program and was certified to practice and reports back to the child therapist at home to review progress. So again you know nothing about these places.
I have read about kids getting hurt and have told you about kids who have done extremely well. Why are not the success stories spoken about here? Something to hide?
Hmmmm.
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We all know there has been research and books written that support the fact that programs are effective but the information is not accepted because it is not negative enough.
No, "we" don't. You keep asserting that, but funny how you don't provide any citation for such absurdity.
Dave Marcus was working for a newspaper and researched and wrote the book independently.
Dave Marcus (why didn't you name him earlier, hmmmm?) is a paid shill for the program he profiled.
The same with Shapiro. She researched a TBS and wrote a research paper on it and found the kids benefitted from their stay
You cite that as clinical research, which it clearly is not.
If either one of these sources had turned out negative they would have made the book list or been sticked at the top.
We all know this.
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"We" know nothing of the kind. You assume as much.
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Ha,Ha,Ha, you all make the same argument. Wahhhh... I was abused. Wahhhh... my parents payed to have me abused. Just like my daughter, you are all a bunch of cry babies. You post studies and evidence and think people are dumb enough to read it, not all of us are elitists who read studies and books. If the program tells me something, that's good enough for me. I'm going to tell you what I told my daughter, go cry about it to someone who cares.
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Ha,Ha,Ha, you all make the same argument. Wahhhh... I was abused. Wahhhh... my parents payed to have me abused. Just like my daughter, you are all a bunch of cry babies. You post studies and evidence and think people are dumb enough to read it, not all of us are elitists who read studies and books. If the program tells me something, that's good enough for me. I'm going to tell you what I told my daughter, go cry about it to someone who cares.
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Oh lovely. The Who imposter is back.
The sad but telling thing is, it's getting hard to tell the real thing from the trolls. Same as with Tina Fey and Sarah Palin.
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Anyone who would make a sincere effort to pose as TheWho must be bored as fuck.
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So we have established a few things today:
1. TBS's are clearly safer than the public sector by orders of magnitude.
2. We have brought forth evidence that TBS's are non abusive in nature via a Pulitzer prized novelist who spent a year and a half inside a TBS writing about day to day issues (which, since no one can dispute the facts, many are trying to convince us he is on the take and writes for pay off money).
3. We have a research paper which was conducted independently by a graduate student working on her PhD. She found the TBS's to be non abusive and effective also.
These are just ones I randomly found. There are probably hundreds of more sources out there… but you wont find them on fornits I can assure you.
As far as evidence to support the theory that the industry is abusive we have come up empty so far, but we are still waiting I am sure some research will surface soon.
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So we have established a few things today:
1. TBS's are clearly safer than the public sector by orders of magnitude.
2. We have brought forth evidence that TBS's are non abusive in nature via a Pulitzer prized novelist who spent a year and a half inside a TBS writing about day to day issues (which, since no one can dispute the facts, many are trying to convince us he is on the take and writes for pay off money).
3. We have a research paper which was conducted independently by a graduate student working on her PhD. She found the TBS's to be non abusive and effective also.
These are just ones I randomly found. There are probably hundreds of more sources out there… but you wont find them on fornits I can assure you.
As far as evidence to support the theory that the industry is abusive we have come up empty so far, but we are still waiting I am sure some research will surface soon.
Admins- Do not argue with him, just click delete!
Trust me- if you do this, he'll eventually stop posting.
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1) The Who sites questionable studies in a lame attempt to back up his ASSertions.
2) The Who has no fucking idea what he is talking about----I mean, when did you last hear about some kids dying at a public school because their teacher kept them from getting medical attention, beat them to death, or deprived them of food or water while making them endure sub-zero temperatures without adequate clothing or shelter?
3) The Who is suffering from syphylitic lesions on his brain, making him susceptible to delusions.
4) The Who can type pretty fast, even while sucking Miller Newton's dick.
5) I am bored enough to respond to Who's bullshit.
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4) The Who can type pretty fast, even while sucking Miller Newton's dick.
:D :D
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1) The Who sites questionable studies in a lame attempt to back up his ASSertions.
The Who has no fucking idea what he is talking about----I mean, when did you last hear about some kids dying at a public school because their teacher kept them from getting medical attention, beat them to death, or deprived them of food or water while making them endure sub-zero temperatures without adequate clothing or shelter.
When was the last time a kid walked into a TBS and started shooting everyone like in columbine? TBS's dont drive kids to that level of hatred (like public schools do) they work with the kids, listen to them and provide a safe environment for them to grow, learn and to be themselves.
The numbers show us overwhelmingly that TBS's are safer, but we know this already.
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Who fucked his daughter? Well. He probably wanted to know if she was really as good as his friends were telling him. :sue:
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1) The Who sites questionable studies in a lame attempt to back up his ASSertions.
The Who has no fucking idea what he is talking about----I mean, when did you last hear about some kids dying at a public school because their teacher kept them from getting medical attention, beat them to death, or deprived them of food or water while making them endure sub-zero temperatures without adequate clothing or shelter.
When was the last time a kid walked into a TBS and started shooting everyone like in columbine? TBS's dont drive kids to that level of hatred (like public schools do) they work with the kids, listen to them and provide a safe environment for them to grow, learn and to be themselves.
The numbers show us overwhelmingly that TBS's are safer, but we know this already.
Admins -- DELETE DELETE DELETE.
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The numbers show us overwhelmingly that TBS's are safer, but we know this already.
I need to see the numbers and percentages.
What is the total number of kids enrolled in all public schools in America?
What is the total number of kids enrolled in TBS's?
Uh-huh. Let's look at your numbers. I think you'll see that given the relatively small population of kids in TBS's compared to the public school system the number of deaths due to negligence/restraint deaths and suicides is much HIGHER in programs.
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You can click on the program type to get more detail if needed.[/b]
__________________________________________________________________
July 1, 2000 thru June 2001 Children 8-18 years of age.
Public Sector: -------There were 1,466 Homicides and 1,493 suicides , 2,959 Total (NCES, CDC)
Therapeutic Industry:
TBS (http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=249136&sid=9b8eb4a290172f9cf58ad39d2a5aea7f#249129) ---------------------There were 0 Homicides, 1 suicides, ----- 1 Total
Wilderness (http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=249136&sid=9b8eb4a290172f9cf58ad39d2a5aea7f#249130) -----------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total Industry -------There were 0 Homicides , 1 suicides, ----- 1 Total
___________________________________________________________________________
July 1, 2001 thru June 2002 Children 8-18 years of age.
Public Sector: -------There were 1,468 Homicides and 1,400 suicides , 2,868 Total (NCES, CDC)
Therapeutic Industry:
TBS (http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=249136&sid=9b8eb4a290172f9cf58ad39d2a5aea7f#249129) ---------------------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
Wilderness (http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=249136&sid=9b8eb4a290172f9cf58ad39d2a5aea7f#249130) -----------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total Industry -------There were 0 Homicides , 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
___________________________________________________________________________
July 1, 2002 thru June 2003 Children 8-18 years of age.
Public Sector: -------There were 1,515 Homicides and 1,331 suicides , 2,846 Total (NCES, CDC)
Therapeutic Industry:
TBS (http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=249136&sid=9b8eb4a290172f9cf58ad39d2a5aea7f#249129) ---------------------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
Wilderness (http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=249136&sid=9b8eb4a290172f9cf58ad39d2a5aea7f#249130) -----------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total Industry -------There were 0 Homicides , 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
___________________________________________________________________________
July 1, 2003 thru June 2004 Children 8-18 years of age.
Public Sector: -------There were 1,437 Homicides and 1,285 suicides , 2,722 Total (NCES, CDC)
Therapeutic Industry:
TBS (http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=249136&sid=9b8eb4a290172f9cf58ad39d2a5aea7f#249129) ---------------------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
Wilderness (http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=249136&sid=9b8eb4a290172f9cf58ad39d2a5aea7f#249130) -----------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
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Total Industry -------There were 0 Homicides , 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
TBS - Therapeutic Boarding Schools
NCES National Center for Education Statistics
CDC -- Centers for Disease Control and Prevention
* - Data found here on fornits, internet news articles (caica.org, isaccorp.org), posts and PM?s.... All deaths are verified thru local news articles.
X -- Incomplete or unavailable
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Go get fucked in the face, fake who.
I asked for totals of the TTI and public school populations. Fuck this Froderik is right. Cut the who's little fuzzy nuts off and stop his spamming. Or track down who he is and see if this is really a commercial endeavor and respond appropriately.
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Go get fucked in the face, fake who.
I asked for totals of the TTI and public school populations. Fuck this Froderik is right. Cut the who's little fuzzy nuts off and stop his spamming. Or track down who he is and see if this is really a commercial endeavor and respond appropriately.
Never seen someone get so pissed over data before and Frod makes another friend to boot!!! Dam you Frod.
I can pull together the total number of kids in the public sector but there are no numbers available for the TBS/Wilderness that I have been able to locate. If you can gather these we can sharpen our pencils and look at the individual rates. This would be interesting to look at I believe.
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Go get fucked in the face, fake who.
I can pull together the total number of kids in the public sector but there are no numbers available for the TBS/Wilderness that I have been able to locate. If you can gather these we can sharpen our pencils and look at the individual rates. This would be interesting to look at I believe.
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There are no number? So why do you make statements like this?
The numbers show us overwhelmingly that TBS's are safer, but we know this already.
You have no numbers for TBS/wilderness populations to work with and you admit it. Don't make idiotic blanket statements with nothing to back you up cretin. Somebody might send their kid to a program based on your fraudulent statements. The kid could die and give you another opportunity to go 'ha, ha, ha'.
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You have no numbers for TBS/wilderness populations to work with and you admit it.
and it appears you don’t either. So we have to present what we have. If you cant contribute to the effort dont criticize others who do.
Don't make idiotic blanket statements with nothing to back you up cretin. Somebody might send their kid to a program based on your fraudulent statements. The kid could die and give you another opportunity to go 'ha, ha, ha'.
Geesh why so negative? Suppose the parent does nothing (because of lack of information) and the child dies? Or someone might get their child the help they need based on the available data.
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No, you incompetent wretch.
Jane!! you ignorant slut!!
Proof a “program” works is not affected by reports of abuse in that “program.” Scientific validity of a treatment is not dependant on its potential practitioners.
To illustrate: it has been proved chemotherapy works. People have been abused by chemo dispensers, but that doesn’t disprove chemo’s effectiveness.
Thank you. You are the first person I have spoken to that can see the abuse comes from the individuals and is not a reflection of the industry as a whole. You would not believe how many people have trouble with this.
On the other hand, not ONE, not even ONE program has EVER been documented by scientific methodology and proofs as doing ANYTHING but HARMING participants.
There have been studies conducted in the past which have shown programs to be effective and not harmful to anyone.
Why in 60 years has not ONE program ever been proved effective?
Maybe because you get all your information from fornits. I agree that there have not been many studies that I have read. But there isn’t any evidence that these programs are ineffective or abusive either.
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You disgusting child abuser, in the history of KENDELL school there was no policy of torture, NO ONE was abducted, no one was held prisoner, no one was forced (as in, being beaten, stripped nude, or surrounded by and verbally tormented by peers who were forced BY the “school” to do this lest they have it done to them) to do ANYTHING.
Teachers weren't instructed by Mel Wasserman, Mike Desisto, Steve Laird, Rudy Bentz, to abduct youth sit them in a circle and torment them in concert with other abducted youth until the targeted youth “broke,” only to do it again the next day, like at Cedu running Springs or Desisto.
Name a program, you evil nut, that this doesn’t happen in. NAME ONE STUDY THAT PROVES ANY PROGRAM IS EFFECTIVE.
One more time, for you, you evil shill. MEDICALLY speaking one must have proof that a ritual or medicine is effective and safe before it can be called a "treatment" or "therapy," or have any medical validity. Otherwise, I can claim that raping you cures cancer. In the same way that no one has proved that raping you cures cancer, no one has proved that any program is effective, therefore programs are defacto, prima ficie INEFFECTIVE QUACKERY. Scientifically speaking they are as valid as "treatment" as is rape for cancer.
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So we have established a few things today:
1. TBS's are clearly safer than the public sector by orders of magnitude.
Bullshit and repeating it over and over will not make it true.
2. We have brought forth evidence that TBS's are non abusive in nature via a Pulitzer prized novelist who spent a year and a half inside a TBS writing about day to day issues (which, since no one can dispute the facts, many are trying to convince us he is on the take and writes for pay off money).
No need to convince anyone of anything. David Marcus is a paid consultant for the program he reviewed.
3. We have a research paper which was conducted independently by a graduate student working on her PhD. She found the TBS's to be non abusive and effective also.
At least you finally admit that it's just a grad student's paper, which is a FAR cry from a clinical study taht would provide facts.
These are just ones I randomly found. There are probably hundreds of more sources out there… but you wont find them on fornits I can assure you.
Those are the ONLY two you have EVER come up with in all the years you've been here.
As far as evidence to support the theory that the industry is abusive we have come up empty so far, but we are still waiting I am sure some research will surface soon.
You've come up empty, but we've come to expect that from you. Proof has been provided and linked to, even within this very thread of ACTUAL CLINICAL STUDIES, one in particular by the NIH yet you REFUSE to even acknowledge it.
You're a complete tool and nothing but a shill for child abuse and mind control.
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You disgusting child abuser
Jane, you ignorant slut!!
, in the history of KENDELL school there was no policy of torture, NO ONE was abducted, no one was held prisoner, no one was forced (as in, being beaten, stripped nude, or surrounded by and verbally tormented by peers who were forced BY the “school” to do this lest they have it done to them) to do ANYTHING.
Teachers weren't instructed by Mel Wasserman, Mike Desisto, Steve Laird, Rudy Bentz, to abduct youth sit them in a circle and torment them in concert with other abducted youth until the targeted youth “broke,” only to do it again the next day, like at Cedu running Springs or Desisto.
Columbine highschool never encouraged their teachers to teach violence nor did they teach the use of deadly weapons.
Name a program, you evil nut, that this doesn’t happen in. NAME ONE STUDY THAT PROVES ANY PROGRAM IS EFFECTIVE.
Name one public school where a child wasnt abused. Name A study that says all programs are ineffective. Your turn, I have all ready provided a Pulitzer prized author and an independent study which proves programs to be effective.
You know the TBS environment is safer for at risk kids than on the street or even in a public school system.
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You disgusting child abuser
Jane, you ignorant slut!!
, in the history of KENDELL school there was no policy of torture, NO ONE was abducted, no one was held prisoner, no one was forced (as in, being beaten, stripped nude, or surrounded by and verbally tormented by peers who were forced BY the “school” to do this lest they have it done to them) to do ANYTHING.
Teachers weren't instructed by Mel Wasserman, Mike Desisto, Steve Laird, Rudy Bentz, to abduct youth sit them in a circle and torment them in concert with other abducted youth until the targeted youth “broke,” only to do it again the next day, like at Cedu running Springs or Desisto.
Columbine highschool never encouraged their teachers to teach violence nor did they teach the use of deadly weapons....
Exactly my point, idiot. SCHOOLS are not systematic torure centers. They don't force youth to torture and murder other youth--PROGRAMS do.
Name a program, you evil nut, that this doesn’t happen in. NAME ONE STUDY THAT PROVES ANY PROGRAM IS EFFECTIVE.
Name one public school where a child wasnt abused. Name A study that says all programs are ineffective. Your turn, I have all ready provided a Pulitzer prized author and an independent study which proves programs to be effective.
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No YOU HAVE NOT PROVIDED ONE STUDY THAT VERIFIES ANY PROGRAM TO BE EFFECTIVE. Where is it? A "pulitzer prized author" never said a program was effective, despite being an for Aspen, the company that paid him to write this book about their rendition center. He produced a book which documented Aspen's detainees post-program personal destrucion.
You know the TBS environment is safer for at risk kids than on the street or even in a public school system.
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[/quote]
WTF are you talking about?
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No studies proving any programs effectiveness, but plenty of studies showing programs' damage, to be sure.
Of course, no genuine studies could ever be conducted on any program, as medical ethics precludes abducting a human being (let alone a child) , imprisoning them, and torturing them, as goes on in a program.
However, there have been studies of as Lifespring, Werner Erhard’s EST, and most directly, from Charles E. Dederich’s “Synanon” cult, “church" as therapies for adults. ALL Studies have found these various treatments to be non-effective and damaging.
A federally contracted investigation found that the Seed was a highly sophisticated brainwashing, abusive system.
Why is this relevant? ALL the major "programs" CEDU, ASPEN, Wwasp, and Straight-Pathway Center Daytop village, not to mention Desisto and Provo Canyon all use a combination of "therapies" based in these cults, adapted, of course to be more brutal as their new targets, can't simply walk away and refuse to participate.
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Ken Kay, founder of WWASP
"I use a little bit of what Synanon [did], maybe Lifespring, Carnegie all of these and you kind of bring a little bit of everything together and then you adapt it"
Essentially, WWASP therapy, according to its founder, is a mix of various cults combined with what he, a high-school drop-out, deems effective.
Suprise, suprise, no valid medical studies in the 30 odd years wwasps has operated has validated his program as effective. Yet, because humans under 21 are not recognized as human in America, is allowed to force his "medical care" on them after abucting and imprisoning them.
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No studies proving any programs effectiveness, but plenty of studies showing programs' damage, to be sure.
So since you have not been able to provide recent studies to disprove the effectiveness of programs we will move forward with the studies we presently have which show them to be effective.
Of course, no genuine studies could ever be conducted on any program, as medical ethics precludes abducting a human being (let alone a child) , imprisoning them, and torturing them, as goes on in a program.
OOOH, Sounds like a good movie, don’t forget the underground torture chambers and the guys with bad teeth.
However, there have been studies of as Lifespring, Werner Erhard’s EST, and most directly, from Charles E. Dederich’s “Synanon” cult, “church" as therapies for adults. ALL Studies have found these various treatments to be non-effective and damaging.
Of course, History is interesting reading, but parents typically want to know what is the latest science. What is effective today.
A federally contracted investigation found that the Seed was a highly sophisticated brainwashing, abusive system.
Yes it did.
Why is this relevant? ALL the major "programs" CEDU, ASPEN, Wwasp, and Straight-Pathway Center Daytop village, not to mention Desisto and Provo Canyon all use a combination of "therapies" based in these cults, adapted, of course to be more brutal as their new targets, can't simply walk away and refuse to participate.
Did you realize that many our automobiles stem from the Model “T”? No seat belts or air bags back then. Henry Ford must have been an abusive bastard huh? Didn’t care about safety at all. Think of all the people that died because of that selfish bastard. Bet peoplel ike you were happy when he finally died.
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No YOU HAVE NOT PROVIDED ONE STUDY THAT VERIFIES ANY PROGRAM TO BE EFFECTIVE. Where is it? A "pulitzer prized author" never said a program was effective, despite being an for Aspen, the company that paid him to write this book about their rendition center. He produced a book which documented Aspen's detainees post-program personal destrucion.
Ha,Ha,Ha you just showed us all you never read the book. We all know the guys' story is legit. It is a stretch to try to make anyone who knows writers to believe a Pulitzer prized author is going to sell after making it big. It shows the desperation in your position. Itis easier to discard than discuss. This is too easy, you should get some sleep.
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No studies proving any programs effectiveness, but plenty of studies showing programs' damage, to be sure.
So since you have not been able to provide recent studies to disprove the effectiveness of programs we will move forward with the studies we presently have which show them to be effective....
Child murderer, there have been NO STUDIES PROVING ANY PROGRAMS EFFECTIVENESS, as you prove in your inability to provide them
Of course, no genuine studies could ever be conducted on any program, as medical ethics precludes abducting a human being (let alone a child) , imprisoning them, and torturing them, as goes on in a program.
OOOH, Sounds like a good movie, don’t forget the underground torture chambers and the guys with bad teeth..
So you're saying programs don't torture kids?
http://74.125.113.104/search?q=cache:Og ... cd=4&gl=us (http://74.125.113.104/search?q=cache:OgHAsvuPvYgJ:www.motherjones.com/news/update/2008/05/when-is-tough-love-torture.html+lulu+corter&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=us)
Cedu was shut down a few years ago for torturing its students, and the state was seeking to press charges..
However, there have been studies of as Lifespring, Werner Erhard’s EST, and most directly, from Charles E. Dederich’s “Synanon” cult, “church" as therapies for adults. ALL Studies have found these various treatments to be non-effective and damaging.
Of course, History is interesting reading, but parents typically want to know what is the latest science. What is effective today.
"History" is relevent for victims of your industry who were abducted by Synanon, it various clones, and Cedu in the 50s and victimized by a society that allows youth to be abducted, imprisoned and tortured by organizations that "claim" to treat "troubled teens" but provide no proof their group does anything but hurt their prisoners. It is relevent for the victims of your industry that continued to be abducted by Cedu, Desisto, Straight, Pathway, AARC, Elan on through the 2000s, into this very moment. "
"Parents" with functioning brain cells are quite interested that the methodolgies Aspen, WWASP, Elan, Carlbrook, boulder creek, desisto and CEDU (reopened) are using to "treat" their kids are cultic and have been proved to hurt victims. And of course, it's not about the "parents," its about the kids you abduct and torture and have to live with what you've done to them.
Nice to know you think of youth abducted, imprisoned, and tortured in the past as irrelevant examples of ancient history. In five years, of course, that means kids abducted, tortured, and murdered today will also be, according to you, irrelevant examples of ancient history. Your victims are real people who do not deserve to be exposed to torture you claim is therapy, but have NEVER proved it to be anything but torture, and your casual dismissal of their bodies is all too revealing.
A federally contracted investigation found that the Seed was a highly sophisticated brainwashing, abusive system.
Yes it did.
Why is this relevant? ALL the major "programs" CEDU, ASPEN, Wwasp, and Straight-Pathway Center Daytop village, not to mention Desisto and Provo Canyon all use a combination of "therapies" based in these cults, adapted, of course to be more brutal as their new targets, can't simply walk away and refuse to participate.
Did you realize that many our automobiles stem from the Model “T”? No seat belts or air bags back then. Henry Ford must have been an abusive bastard huh? Didn’t care about safety at all. Think of all the people that died because of that selfish bastard. Bet peoplel ike you were happy when he finally died.
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What are you talking about? You cretin, Henry Ford, didn't abduct, imprison and torure people while claiming to provide "treatment" that had no scientific validity whatsoever.
Yes, you freak, the man who abducted me, worked me from morning to night, punished me with public nudity, molested kids in his bed, subjected me to day in day out peer donouncement sessions, kept me in chains of flesh all day, is a "torturous bastard"
The man I refer to: Micheal Desisto. He provided "treatment" over the course of 40 years. He murdered 1000 kids, by my estimation. The torture i endured in the 00s was identical, or worse than the torture endured by seed victims 30 or so years ago. I endured the same methodologies originated in the same cults executed by the same people or their disiples, because of the same lack of human rights, the same ability of anyone to start a program for "troubled teens" and then do anything they want to a youth deemed troubled, including torture them.
Please prove me wrong. Name a helpful program. I know you can't.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIpIAX78gig (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIpIAX78gig)
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Child murderer,
Crack whore
there have been NO STUDIES PROVING ANY PROGRAMS EFFECTIVENESS, as you prove in your inability to provide them
I provided a study and an inside account of a program from an independent source. You have still come up empty and I am still waiting.
What are you talking about? You cretin, Henry Ford, didn't abduct, imprison and torure people while claiming to provide "treatment" that had no scientific validity whatsoever.
Its called an analogy. My point is if you manufactured a car like that today you would be put in jail and sued out of business. Things change over time.
Yes, you freak,
Germ, you ignorant slut!!
the man who abducted me, worked me from morning to night, punished me with public nudity, molested kids in his bed, subjected me to day in day out peer donouncement sessions, kept me in chains of flesh all day, is a "torturous bastard"
The man I refer to: Micheal Desisto. He provided "treatment" over the course of 40 years. He murdered 1000 kids, by my estimation. The torture i endured in the 00s was identical, or worse than the torture endured by seed victims 30 or so years ago. I endured the same methodologies originated in the same cults executed by the same people or their disiples, because of the same lack of human rights, the same ability of anyone to start a program for "troubled teens" and then do anything they want to a youth deemed troubled, including torture them.
Thats awlful!! Its a good thing they closed those places down. I am truly sorry you had to experience that in your life. I can understand why you feel the way you do towards these places.
Please prove me wrong. Name a helpful program. I know you can't.
There was a guy who spent a year and a half inside a TBS and wrote a book about his experience. There were no murders or kidnappings or torture during the time he spent there and have not been any that we know of. His name was Dave Marcus and you can read about it on this site http://www.davemarcus.com (http://www.davemarcus.com). There was another independent study done of this place, ASR, which showed no evidence of abuse, torture or murder. The finding were quite positive in both cases. These are only 2 examples. I am sure if you looked outside fornits you would find more. There are many good programs out there but not every program is good for every child. Parents need to do their homework, talk to the childs therapist,local services etc. prior to placement.
The majority of programs are extremely effective and non abusive.
Yes they are.
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Child murderer,
Crack whore
there have been NO STUDIES PROVING ANY PROGRAMS EFFECTIVENESS, as you prove in your inability to provide them
I provided a study and an inside account of a program from an independent source. You have still come up empty and I am still waiting.
My mind boggles at the insanity you are willing to publically engage in, child murderer. You have presented NO study, about ANY "program." That is verifiable by reading through this thread.
If you think that claiming the self-evidently non-existant to be real is an effective shilling technique, you've absorbed too much "learning" from Werner Erhard, that guy your "friend" "studied under" back in the 70s.
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Child murderer,
Crack whore
there have been NO STUDIES PROVING ANY PROGRAMS EFFECTIVENESS, as you prove in your inability to provide them
I provided a study and an inside account of a program from an independent source. You have still come up empty and I am still waiting.
My mind boggles at the insanity you are willing to publically engage in, child murderer. You have presented NO study, about ANY "program." That is verifiable by reading through this thread.
If you think that claiming the self-evidently non-existant to be real is an effective shilling technique, you've absorbed too much "learning" from Werner Erhard, that guy your "friend" "studied under" back in the 70s.
so, porn queen, I guess we can conclude that I can provide evidence of TBS's being effective. But you still continue to come up empty. I would be pissed too if I were you.
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the man who abducted me, worked me from morning to night, punished me with public nudity, molested kids in his bed, subjected me to day in day out peer donouncement sessions, kept me in chains of flesh all day, is a "torturous bastard"
The man I refer to: Micheal Desisto. He provided "treatment" over the course of 40 years. He murdered 1000 kids, by my estimation. The torture i endured in the 00s was identical, or worse than the torture endured by seed victims 30 or so years ago. I endured the same methodologies originated in the same cults executed by the same people or their disiples, because of the same lack of human rights, the same ability of anyone to start a program for "troubled teens" and then do anything they want to a youth deemed troubled, including torture them.
Thats awlful!! Its a good thing they closed those places down. I am truly sorry you had to experience that in your life. I can understand why you feel the way you do towards these places.
They never closed Desisto down. Desisto began abducting, imprisoning and torturing youth in the 70s, when all those "great human potential movement" (cults) you referred to emerged.
For the next 35 years, until a few back, Desisto and his disciples continued this evil. You or your friend Lon Woodbury promote Desisto and I believe it was a member of "natsap." It was also licensed. Lou Woodbury continues to honor Mike Desisto for his greatness as an educator. A psychiatrist referred my family to Desisto and sang its praises.
A girl swallowed a razor and instead of taking her to a hospital, Desisto management had her "confronted" for being so "untrustworthy" for hours. Her “treatment” became public.
Mass state had known of the systematic torture at Desisto for years, but had been unable to stop it. The revoked its license (still allowing it to operate unlicensed) but Desisto sued and got his license restored. After 35 years of kids being abducted, imprisoned, tortured and murdered, and now with this kid who swallowed a razor, and management publicly confirming they’d refused to bring her to a hospital, Mass insisted that there be slight changes in its operations (allow kids to use the phone without being “monitored,” for ex) or it would have its license revoked again. (Though it could continue to operate unlicensed)
Desisto did not want to make any changes. In response, Desisto split into at least 3 "new" schools. One opened in Florida, with a license. After opening, the Florida desisto, now with a new name, recommended a parent practice something they called "street therapy," a “therapy” Desisto had initiated in the 70s. Street therapy is not allowing a youth to return home after they escape the "school." While receiving "street therapy" a boy was raped and murdered. This was in 2005-6, roundabouts.
After that, the family of this "data point" sued the school. Were they successful? I don't know. But at this point, the Florida desistoites, supposedly liquidated the "school's" assets and extradited themselves from the situation as very wealthy people.
It is unknown how the other Desisto Schools under new names are progressing or if the Florida Desisto school managers have since started a new "school."
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So assuming what you say is true I would say there was a program which had a history of abusing kids. This is the type of information that needs to get out to parents.
Making statements like "All" programs are abusive just makes everyone look really dumb.
Even if the government funded an all out effort to make all programs abuse kids by pumping billions into the system with rewards for the most abusive program .... there would still be a few that would not want to abuse kids no matter how much they were paid. It would just be impossibe to make them all adhere and be the same.
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So assuming what you say is true I would say there was a program which had a history of abusing kids. This is the type of information that needs to get out to parents.
Making statements like "All" programs are abusive just makes everyone look really dumb.
Even if the government funded an all out effort to make all programs abuse kids by pumping billions into the system with rewards for the most abusive program .... there would still be a few that would not want to abuse kids no matter how much they were paid. It would just be impossibe to make them all adhere and be the same.
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Yeah, but all programs have a history like this. If you'd like to name one that doesn't be my guest....
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So assuming what you say is true I would say there was a program which had a history of abusing kids. This is the type of information that needs to get out to parents.
Making statements like "All" programs are abusive just makes everyone look really dumb.
Even if the government funded an all out effort to make all programs abuse kids by pumping billions into the system with rewards for the most abusive program .... there would still be a few that would not want to abuse kids no matter how much they were paid. It would just be impossibe to make them all adhere and be the same.
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Yeah, but all programs have a history like this. If you'd like to name one that doesn't be my guest....
It's just pretty mind boggling that that was allowed to go on for practically 40 years, well still is allowed to go on. Desisto was never closed, the torturers never punished. You still can abduct any person (under 21, sometimes) imprison them, and force upon them "treatment" that has no medical validity and is transparently torture.
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I provided a study and an inside account of a program from an independent source. You have still come up empty and I am still waiting.
A paper by a grad student and a book written by a paid consultant to programs do not clinical studies make.
There was a guy who spent a year and a half inside a TBS and wrote a book about his experience.
The paid consultant. Yes, he wrote a book. Independent? No.
There was another independent study done of this place, ASR, which showed no evidence of abuse, torture or murder.
And the name of the "independent" study? I'm sure it's a clinical, randomized study right?
The burden of proof is on those claiming to have a successful and effective program. This is pretty basic stuff. You should have been able to catch on to it by now.
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Who. I thought you accepted anecdotal data? That's what Fornits survivors provide. NOW you gotta problem when it goes AGAINST you? Oh, you feeble little wiener.
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=25572&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=15#p311508 (http://fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=25572&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=15#p311508)
Why all the negativity on Anecdotal data? I agree that there are better forms of data collection and presentation, but in the absence of long term controlled studies, anecdotal evidence is acceptable, revealing and educational.
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Child murderer,
Crack whore
there have been NO STUDIES PROVING ANY PROGRAMS EFFECTIVENESS, as you prove in your inability to provide them
I provided a study and an inside account of a program from an independent source. You have still come up empty and I am still waiting.
My mind boggles at the insanity you are willing to publically engage in, child murderer. You have presented NO study, about ANY "program." That is verifiable by reading through this thread.
If you think that claiming the self-evidently non-existant to be real is an effective shilling technique, you've absorbed too much "learning" from Werner Erhard, that guy your "friend" "studied under" back in the 70s
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I hope this is the first thread anyone uninitated in this industry comes accross. The Werner Erhard,Charles Dietrich cult disiple style insanity of a program shill, their the callous disregard for human life, it's all here
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A paper by a grad student and a book written by a paid consultant to programs do not clinical studies make.
[citation needed]
The paid consultant. Yes, he wrote a book. Independent? No.
[citation needed]
And the name of the "independent" study? I'm sure it's a clinical, randomized study right?
“A Treatment outcome study” (http://http://groups.colgate.edu/cjs/student_papers/2002/VShapiro.pdf)
The important thing is to get the information out to people good and bad. If people don’t agree with the study that is okay. Everyone will come away with something different.
The burden of proof is on those claiming to have a successful and effective program. This is pretty basic stuff. You should have been able to catch on to it by now.
Yes, we have, as you can see. You also need to remember that without a study to back you up you cant claim they are ineffective either. This is basic also, I think you would agree the logic would follow.
So where is your study that claims programs are ineffective? Still waiting.
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You also need to remember that without a study to back you up you cant claim they are ineffective either. This is basic also, I think you would agree the logic would follow.
Fuck you asshole. The studies saying they're ineffective have been posted IN THIS VERY THREAD. If you're too stupid to find it, I can't help that.
Again.......burden of proof falls upon those claiming success, especially when we're talking about things like medical treatment. Even though we've provided NIH studies AND MORE (which you conveniently ignore), all you can come up with are a paper written by a grad student (not a clinical study) and a book written by a guy who is PAID by the program he wrote about.
How sad for you.
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Fuck you asshole. The studies saying they're ineffective have been posted IN THIS VERY THREAD. If you're too stupid to find it, I can't help that.
I have been providing you studies and independent people who have written about programs. Its information, whether a student paper or Pulitzer prize author. Most of the information we hear here on fornits comes from people with less qualifications than that.
Again.......burden of proof falls upon those claiming success, especially when we're talking about things like medical treatment. Even though we've provided NIH studies AND MORE (which you conveniently ignore), all you can come up with are a paper written by a grad student (not a clinical study) and a book written by a guy who is PAID by the program he wrote about.
How sad for you.
Show us your proof that the person was paid to write the novel by the program. See, I know you are lying because I was there at the time and know the circumstances. You wonder why I don’t believe many of your stories is because I catch you lying about facts like these why would you all of a sudden start telling the truth when talking about your time in the program?
See what I mean? This is why I don’t believe many of you and are cautious about most of the stories you tell. I have good reason not to believe you.
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I looks like he has always been independent to me:
David L. Marcus has been a foreign correspondent and education reporter for U.S. News & World Report, the Boston Globe, Miami Herald, and Dallas Morning News, where he shared a Pulitzer Prize for a series of articles on violence against women around the world. Marcus also was a Nieman Fellow at Harvard. After a twenty-four year career in journalism, he spent a year as a high school teacher in western Massachusetts, where he lives.
He is now a contributing editor at US News and a visiting scholar at Ithaca College’s Park School of Communications.
"To find answers, Marcus gained unfettered access to students, staff, and parents at the Academy at Swift River in the hills of western Massachusetts."
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"To find answers, Marcus gained unfettered access to students, staff, and parents at the Academy at Swift River in the hills of western Massachusetts."
"Unfettered access", huh?
I'm sure none of the kids were too afraid to tell the truth about abuses 'cause consequences NEVER get handed out for speaking the truth about The Program, and I'm sure none of the staff lied 'cause they never had anything to hide.
And I am the King of Peru.
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Sorry, The truth can be harsh sometimes. Its funny to watch everyone scramble to discredit someone who says something positive about a program. Maybe you could repost it and change the wording (Deborah style) so it fits the postion here. That use to be one of my favorites to expose.
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"To find answers, Marcus gained unfettered access to students, staff, and parents at the Academy at Swift River in the hills of western Massachusetts."
"Unfettered access", huh?
I'm sure none of the kids were too afraid to tell the truth about abuses 'cause consequences NEVER get handed out for speaking the truth about The Program, and I'm sure none of the staff lied 'cause they never had anything to hide.
And I am the King of Peru.
Dave Marcus is an employee of Aspen Industries, and even if he weren't it has no baring on this conversation. A book about the greatness of Aspen (the book chronicles the kids' post program personal destruction, in actual fact) is not a "clinical study" any more than the psychology student's term paper. It has no more legitimacy than Leni" Riefenstahl's "the triumph of the will." (Both merely serve as semi-effective propaganda for murderous, totalistic organizations. Heil Ernhard)
The dude isn't going to acknowledge the difference between medical proof and a marketing exercise or book, or acknowledge that has any implications. He's a shill or a bona-fide Synanon/Ernhard moonie or combo of the two, so you can't expect anything other, darling. I think it's best to work on a who response thread, lock it and sticky it then continue this back and forth.
Rapunzel
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Dave Marcus is an employee of Aspen Industries
This is why no one believes your stories. Why dont you try proving this or giving a link to where you found this info.
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Dave Marcus is an employee of Aspen Industries
This is why no one believes your stories. Why dont you try proving this or giving a link to where you found this info.
He cant provide a link. There is no fact behind his claim. This is the fun part, to see what he does next.... some of them try to post a lot of unrelated articles to try to change the subject to cover up their lies. Most just go away for a few days hoping we forget about his attempt to decieve people.
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TheWho can't even impersonate guests without being obvious, it's just so sad knowing this might actually be somebody's parent.
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TheWho can't even impersonate guests without being obvious, it's just so sad knowing this might actually be somebody's parent.
I would like to see the link or proof, myself. I have read the Marcus website in the past and I am not a program supporter but I do not this guy was paid by the industry. Look at the work he has done for battered women and highschool kids.
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Hate to break it to you, but you ain't foolin' anyone.
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Hate to break it to you, but you ain't foolin' anyone.
I definitely agree with you on this one, it is a stretch to think anyone would believe a man who writes and supports battered women, supports local teens and has written many books, won the Pulitzer Prize is going to be on the take for one novel. It is a cheap smear campaign at best. But we will give the poster a chance to redeem himself or reveal his sources.
You have to admit, this is fun.
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Hate to break it to you, but you ain't foolin' anyone.
Here's an interesting post. Tells ya all about Academy at Swift River ya need to know (Werner Erhard/Charles Dietrich's zombie knows better to name an a specific helpful "program" when challenged, as that would mean the inevitable highlighting of the specific "program's policy of abduction, imprisonment, and torture, but he's such a nut he can't keep be consistant in meeting his objective)
Really, this guy is a commercial spammer who floods the forum and should be treated as such
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t= (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=) ... &start=300
Perhaps as a former student/client/survivor/inmate/whatever you want to call it, I can shed some light on the subject. I was in peer group 17, I was at ASR from October of 2000 to December of 2001. During my stay I was under the impression that the lifesteps were essentially unchanged from the start of the program up until then. I can't say anything about 2002 and onward. As was said before, they were about anger, insecurities, reconnecting with core self, (aka inner child) and forgiveness. They were held in the library in the academic building, and generally started around mid evening on a friday or saturday night, and lasted between 12 and 24 hours. Hard to tell exactly because they made a policy of taking our watches beforehand. All I know was that at the latest, we were asleep in our beds by the normal lights out the next night, except for the 4th lifestep, where we slept in tents overnight outside the library. That was about 36 hours altogether.
They definitely fed us, slightly less than usual, but more than adequate for a day's nutrition. As for sleep deprivation, we were up way past our bedtimes, which were tightly regulated, so any alterations to the routine were quite noticeable. While we were up late, full of anxiety and stress, we were subjected to a lot of yelling, a lot of exercises and workshops designed to illustrate how our behaviors were hurting us. There was a lot of crying, screaming, cursing, quiet time for writing, (read: kids can't talk, counselors walk around reading what's being written and pontificating about the topics being written about. My point is that it was very intense and quite overwhelming. I don't remember every single detail of the experiences, but I will try to include what I can.
The most memorable thing about the first lifestep was an exercise called dyads. This involved pairing up with a buddy and holding them while screaming at the top of our lungs all the things we hated our parents and ourselves for, for minutes at a time. I distinctly remember spitting up blood and being encouraged to continue screaming. There were also short group therapy sessions, there were exercises involving listing all the things our parents had ever done to hurt us, focusing on all the pain and suffering that we'd ever felt and how angry it made us. After all of us were exhausted we read letters our parents sent us about how much they loved us and why they chose to send us away. Needless to say there was a lot of crying.
The second lifestep had exercises where we had to sit in a circle, while one of us would walk around from person to person to hear whether that one or this one considered them a "giver" or a "taker". After we'd all judged each other we had to say to people why we felt this way about them. Some of this took the form of harsh criticism masked as praise. There were exercises involving how we judge ourselves and how we present ourselves to others. We had to wear cards around our necks that labeled us as one thing or another to supposedly demonstrate how restrictive the images we present to people can be. I remember carving images into cubes of sandstone to symbolize all the good qualities we had and who we really were. I also remember listening to Enya and other new age music, and doing a warped guided meditation which, rather than enhancing relaxation heightens emotions like guilt, sadness and fear. It was either in this lifestep or the third that we did an exercise involving manic, happy music, and all of us being instructed to smile until it started to hurt, and walk around laughing and smiling and looking at each other for about 5-10 minutes with the song on repeat. By the end many were crying, some were on the verge of hysteria.
The third lifestep was probably the most traumatic and damaging. It involved internalizing immense guilt. We had to write down anything and everything that we'd ever done to hurt ourselves, told how horrible it was, then forced to look at childhood pictures of ourselves that our parents had mailed to the school. Sitting there for what seemed like hours being yelled at because all the mistakes, impulses, and self destruction we'd gone through were "horrible things that we, as horrible people had done to the innocent children that we were" We were told to imagine all these wrongdoings being visited upon these children, as if we'd done them to some helpless little kid ourselves. Hurting yourself because you're horribly depressed is suddenly akin to torturing preschoolers. Talk about cognitive dissonance! We had to draw a symbolic portrait of ourselves involving all our interests, loves, etc., then tack the childhood picture to it. The other focus of this lifestep was the emotional manipulations or games that we use in an attempt to fill holes in our lives. We acted out all the games we each typically used, and had our peer group guess which one. Games such as playing the victim, using intimidation, attention games, the "everything is fine" game, etc.
The fourth lifestep involved a modified Native American sweat ritual. One of these took place before the first lifestep, almost a pre lifestep. This ritual was kind of like group therapy in a sauna, with some new age religious undertones. We were smudged with sage before entering the sweat lodge, there was a little discussion about purification. We talked about grudges we held, and how they weighed us down. To illustrate this concept physically, we took a long walk in the woods late at night, each of us carrying a rock about the size of a large melon and being lectured to about how we weigh ourselves down by not letting things go. We weren't allowed to put down the rocks, and the walk lasted somewhere between 1 and 2 hours. Being able to set down the rock was supposed to symbolize how good it feels to let go of anger and resentment. Perfect timing, the program's almost over, let's assuage some of the anger that comes from having a year of your life stolen.
All in all I would say that these lifesteps are a clear indication of the cult like way that the academy is run. In addition I would like to comment on the pervasive nature of the levels and punishment/reward system that was in effect. Profanity was punishable by doing pushups, we were continually encouraged to report each other for anything and everything, for our own good. Dish duty would be assigned for having a shirt untucked or for not cleaning the dorm before breakfast adequately. Being late to meetings or classes had similar consequences. Consequences, not punishments. There was no such thing as a punishment at ASR, just like there were no rules, only Agreements. Since you agreed to not do this or that, you had already accepted the consequence for breaking the agreement. I don't remember ever signing a contract, but then again, since as a minor you don't really have rights or the ability to sign contracts, none of that matters. The point is, it was a very effective technique for fostering obedience through guilt. You didn't just fuck up, you went back on your word and let down the school. The rule system was so pervasive it was difficult to make it through an entire day without breaking at least one. Privileges were removed at the drop of a hat. If you read too many books, you were avoiding people, and weren't allowed to read for pleasure. If you were rude or rowdy you might go on a restriction and lose the privilege of any and all recreational activity for between 1 and 4 weeks. Restrictions could involve being on "bans" with groups or individuals in the school, such as "bans with all lower school students", or all females, all males, etc. You couldn't talk to people you were on bans with or you faced serious consquences. This often caused difficulty in coordinating schoolwork with therapy. Restrictions ended when counselors felt you'd accepted whatever you'd done was horribly wrong and you felt horrible about it/learned something. Then you'd tell the whole school about it and apologize at the end of the day meeting.
Academics are another concern. The options for classes were limited, the teachers often weren't qualified. My chemistry teacher was an English major who was only a chapter ahead of the class each week. He was filling in until they found someone who knew chemistry. Most of the teachers, even those qualified to teach their subject, did not know how to deal with kids with learning disabilities, or kids who acted out constantly. This had a negative effect on the amount of actual teaching that got done. Student's writings, paintings, etc. were often censored for being to dark, too imagey, too negative, too sexual, etc. Reading material was restricted, the library was full of outdated books and random novels, all of it unorganized. On numerous occasions books I'd found in the library were confiscated, apparently even some of them weren't appropriate.
Inmates faced a barrage of emotional abuse from counselors and students alike. Students tried to curry favor by enforcing rules and ratting on others. Once an accusation of rulebreaking, innapropriate behavior, telling "warstories" i.e. talking less than disdainfully about anything ASR didn't like, such as drugs, sex, stunts we'd pulled that got us sent there. Challenging the rules for any reason was being manipulative, denying an accusation was being in denial. Getting upset at false accusations was an attempt to intimidate the accuser. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
At least a third of the inmates were on either wellbutrin or adderall. You got to see one of the 2 psychiatrists the school employed, no one from outside. You weren't allowed to refuse medication either.
Some of the other issues in the program were a lack of policies on various issues such as religions, sexual orientation, and a number of other things. For example, Rudy Bentz the headmaster would frequently speak of a higher power in thinly veiled judeo-christian propaganda terms, and there was a clear preference for mainstream religions. Shortly after 9-11 in a schoolwide discussion, he failed to reprimand or even comment on an inmate yelling in front of the school an insensitive comment about "fucking towelheads". Wiccan or Buddhist students were often slighted, or accused of using the religion as part of their image rather than professing a sincere belief. Big fucking christmas tree up in the common room, slight chanukah concession for the few jewish kids, nothing for anyone else.
On other occasions, I was told by certain counselors that I did not know what my sexual orientation was and I was going through a delusional phase where I mistakenly believed I was bisexual. Yet other counselors told me it was normal and natural and to trust myself. The lack of clear policies on these and other issues created untold confusion and despair.
All in all, I think the program has absolutely minimal potential to help anyone, and most of the help it offers comes solely from the extended period of time away from a harmful home environment, and the substantial reflection it necessitates. The entire premise revolves around group mentality, breaking down and moulding psyches, a complex reward and punishment system combined with censorship and constant, constant, constant reinforcement of obedience that comes from never knowing whether or not you're "in agreement" (currently not violating or witholding a confession about past violations of the rules), and always worrying about being punished.
Through the use of repetitive propaganda, peer pressure, and psycholinguistics, the process of conveniently rephrasing everything to give it a slant that is in line with the belief you're trying to force upon a captive population. Rules are agreements, punishments are consequences, shoveling snow for 6 hours is "getting back in agreement", expressing your feelings in an unapproved manner is either acting out or manipulative behavior.
The Academy at Swift River has done untold damage to hundreds of children whose only crime was being born to parents who held them to unreasonable standards, often abused them mentally, physically and sexually, often were alcoholics or drug addicts or suffered from mental disorders, and thought that money could fix their kid. There is a certain amount of accountability on the parents part, but it's pretty much lip service when you get right down to it. Kids are beaten, berated, treated as less than human, and shipped away to prison without a trial when they understandably start to act out in these circumstances. They go through a 14 month sentence of emotional torture under questionable auspices, subjected to the horrors I've described above. To claim that the parents who sent them there are being called to task because they have to go through a 3 hour group therapy session once every 3 months and hear about how they fucked up their kid doesn't even begin to address the issues at hand.
The whole thing is a twisted mixture of cult and psych ward, it should be burnt to the ground and its founders should be jailed.
http://www.culthelp.info/index.php?opti (http://www.culthelp.info/index.php?opti) ... &Itemid=12
DAY 1, Thursday evening. Agree or Else
The participants sign an agreement which includes non-disclosure of the processes used. It is my understanding that mental/therapeutic processess are not proprietary, and cannot be covered by patent, copyright or trade secret laws and thus violating nondisclosure cannot hold up in court. I will refrain from mentioning the name of the specific training I experienced and any process used in the training that cannot be documented elsewhere.
Dr. Margaret Singer writes about LGATs in her book, "Cults in Our Midst".
"The program trainers and leaders typically get agreement from participants that they will not tell anyone about the processes that occur. To do so "will spoil it for your friends, family, co-workers etc, when they take the course. Tell them what you got out of it trainers advise. This means be vague about the actual content and provide glowing endorsements telling others that the training turned your life around but do not tell them how emotional, dramatic, confrontational, and unnerving the sessions can be for some people. Because of this promise, consumers who buy and attend these seminars do so without information about how psychologically, socially, and sometimes physically stressing the event can be."
"Day one is usually devoted to demonstrating the leader's absolute authority. The leader, or trainer immediately takes control of the setting with a demeanor that suggests he is a powerful, in-charge person and no one is to challenge what he says. He remains totally in charge, acts knowledgeable, and is practiced in verbal skills so that he never loses an encounter. Anyone who challenges the trainer will be humiliated and verbally mashed."
The first day started Thursday evening around 7. After some introductory stuff welcoming people, etc. the trainer brings up *THE AGREEMENT*. The attitude and tone of voice of the trainer predictably becomes stern and unyielding in a way to purposely provoke a response from the attendees.
The first point brought up is about not revealing the processes or personal information that is shared. Since people will be sharing some very deep personal secrets then this is common sense but people do not know this in advance. The processes are not unique to the course and not proprietary but people do not know this.
The second point was about attending all the course including the followup session and also being on time. Several people objected to this stating they had other commitments family or otherwise. There were some people from out of town who could not make the next Tuesday evening followup.
Everyone of them was was met with unyielding harshness from the trainer. One of the arguments the trainer makes was if they would only "get it" they could make the space for the course in their schedule and "getting it" would also keep others from interrupting their attendance. "Getting it", of course means that we create our own reality or experience by our thinking and interpretation. However, this is not explained at this point and is designed only to provoke more responses from attendees. Several people storm out of the room. However there are ample staff people to handle those who leave. Outside, people are pressured by the staff to return to the course. Most end up coming back in the room while a few never return.
Other rules include not talking unless called upon, not sitting next to anyone you knew prior to the training, no eating, drinking, gum chewing, etc. Some people saw fit to argue with that. At this point the show begins to get quite boring as it had been over 3 hours that we were in the ballroom. At least we were allowed potty breaks as needed so I took one. When I got back the trainer was finishing up the agreements and we were asked to stand if we agreed. So we did. Then we were allowed a 20 minute break. We were reminded to be in our seats (precisely arranged and marked with tape on the floor) on time for the next part.
When we come back there is lecture which include some of the basic philosophy/pop psychology of LGATs. One can certainly read about the philosophy in John Hanley's book, Lifespring available from Lifespring (http://www.lifespringinc.com (http://www.lifespringinc.com))
Later we were asked to pair off into a diad (one on one exercises). What we did was an awareness exercise of staring into the other persons eyes in silence for several minutes. Then we were asked to introduce ourselves and have a conversation. At the end of the exercise we were guided to close our eyes and remind ourselves of how we behaved in the exercise, did we open up and share or did we talk superficially.
Then we did "The Trust Exercise". This consists of milling around the room, looking people in the eyes for a minute and stating one of only three things.
1) I trust you.
2) I don't trust you.
3) I don't know if I trust you.
This goes on for ten or fifteen minutes. At the end we were again instructed to close our eyes and review what we did from the vantage point of being above the crowd. Let me point out that there is a lot of closed eye guided exercises in these courses. By closing your eyes and going within one usually enters an alpha or hypnotic state and is much more suggestible then normal.
These courses also use popular music to set the mood. After the trust process we were instructed to sit on the floor and we listened to Jackson Browne's "The Pretender".
THE PRETENDER
I'm going to rent myself a house
In the shade of the freeway
I'm going to pack my lunch in the morning
And go to work each day
And when the evening rolls around
I'll go on home and lay my body down
And when the morning light comes streaming in
I'll get up and do it again
Amen
Say it again
Amen
I want to know what became of the changes
We waited for love to bring
Were they only the fitful dreams
Of some greater awakening
I've been aware of the time going by
They say in the end it's the wink of an eye
And when the morning light comes streaming in
You'll get up and do it again
Amen
Caught between the longing for love
And the struggle for the legal tender
Where the sirens sing and the church bells ring
And the junk man pounds his fender
Where the veterans dream of the fight
Fast asleep at the traffic light
And the children solemnly wait
For the ice cream vendor
Out into the cool of the evening
Strolls the Pretender
He knows that all his hopes and dreams
Begin and end there
Ah the laughter of the lovers
As they run through the night
Leaving nothing for the others
But to choose off and fight
And tear at the world with all their might
While the ships bearing their dreams
Sail out of sight
I'm going to find myself a girl
Who can show me what laughter means
And we'll fill in the missing colors
In each other's paint-by-number dreams
And then we'll put our dark glasses on
And we'll make love until our strength is gone
And when the morning light comes streaming in
We'll get up and do it again
Get it up again
I'm going to be a happy idiot
And struggle for the legal tender
Where the ads take aim and lay their claim
To the heart and the soul of the spender
And believe in whatever may lie In those things that money can buy
Thought true love could have been a contender
Are you there?
Say a prayer for the Pretender
Who started out so young and strong
Only to surrender
(c) 1976 SWALLOW TURN MUSIC
(You can get the lyrics to damn near anything off the web :-)
During the song the trainer periodically lowers the volume and instructs people to focus on their inauthentic, pretending behaviors. The tone of the trainer's voice is negative and rebuking like we are worthless pitiful pretending creatures. "Are you there? Or are you just pretending."
In my conscious mind I am somewhat amused by all of this. In my subconscious I can feel awareness of all my senses increasing. One cannot resist the psychological opening that occurs in these courses.
After the exercises the group has to rearrange the chairs to the tape on the floor. The group is timed and encouraged to beat the previous time. This is just another way to get the group to respond to the trainer on demand. By this point nobody resists the trainer.
After this it is 1 AM and time to go home being reminded to be there the next night at 7. If people go to work the next day which I did, it makes for a night of very little sleep.
Continuation here...
http://www.culthelp.info/index.php?opti (http://www.culthelp.info/index.php?opti) ... &Itemid=12
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interesting cafety thread
http://cafety.org/index.php?option=com_ ... 13&id=1275 (http://cafety.org/index.php?option=com_joomlaboard&Itemid=26&func=view&catid=13&id=1275)
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http://74.125.45.104/search?q=cache:Xau ... d=11&gl=us (http://74.125.45.104/search?q=cache:XaugvM9NPGMJ:fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php%3Ff%3D48%26t%3D15260%26start%3D0+%22dave+marcus%22+aspen&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=11&gl=us)
I said all along that Marcus was a program shill - and he is. Recent news states that Marcus is now an "Emotional Growth Seminar Facilitator" working with renowned child abuser Rudy Bentz. Keep in mind neither Marcus nor Bentz have any education whatsoever in the area of mental health treatment.
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http://74.125.45.104/search?q=cache:XaugvM9NPGMJ:fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php%3Ff%3D48%26t%3D15260%26start%3D0+%22dave+marcus%22+aspen&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=11&gl=us
I said all along that Marcus was a program shill - and he is. Recent news states that Marcus is now an "Emotional Growth Seminar Facilitator" working with renowned child abuser Rudy Bentz. Keep in mind neither Marcus nor Bentz have any education whatsoever in the area of mental health treatment.
Ha,Ha,Ha, You use a link within the forum? Ha,Ha,Ha That is truly a classic. I will book mark this post, thank you!! Try giving us something original or original source. Maybe news article, press release etc.
anyone can just write "All programs are effective" somewhere in the forum and then just link to it and say "See this is my proof" !! Ha,Ha,Ha
I think you are new here and I apologize for laughing, but many people use to do this all the time and thought they were fooling the readers.
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http://74.125.45.104/search?q=cache:XaugvM9NPGMJ:fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php%3Ff%3D48%26t%3D15260%26start%3D0+%22dave+marcus%22+aspen&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=11&gl=us
I said all along that Marcus was a program shill - and he is. Recent news states that Marcus is now an "Emotional Growth Seminar Facilitator" working with renowned child abuser Rudy Bentz. Keep in mind neither Marcus nor Bentz have any education whatsoever in the area of mental health treatment.
Ha,Ha,Ha, You use a link within the forum? Ha,Ha,Ha That is truly a classic. I will book mark this post, thank you!! Try giving us something original or original source. Maybe news article, press release etc.
anyone can just write "All programs are effective" somewhere in the forum and then just link to it and say "See this is my proof" !! Ha,Ha,Ha
I think you are new here and I apologize for laughing, but many people use to do this all the time and thought they were fooling the readers.
Hmm, you really have no idea how crazy you look..interesting.
At the bottem of the page you'll note a link to a page that has since been edited of the damning info. Memo: when dealing with the Synanon/Ernhard moonies it's imperative to screensave ANYTHING relavent as lacking any integrity they have no problem deleting it and denying it was ever there. The investigation to confirm Marcus's corruption now that the incriminating info has been deleted from the most obvious place is a bit beyond me now
Here's some more interesting info on Marcus and Rudy and Jill Bentz the founders/cultic therapy deliverers/murderers at the Academy At Swift River
What are teen “tough-love” and “behavior modification” programs like, from the inside?
http://liamscheff.com/daily/2008/05/02/ ... r-academy/ (http://liamscheff.com/daily/2008/05/02/rudy-bentz-and-the-swift-river-academy/)
"What are teen “tough-love” and “behavior modification” programs like, from the inside?
You can discover at least a little by reading “What it takes to Pull Me Through,”, by a writer named Dave Marcus.
Reading the book, I recognize all of the details - the forced labor, the bizarre, unregulated, unprofessional group ‘therapies’; the tactics of humiliation, isolation and coercion. I have to say, however, that while the author shows a good facility with chronology, he seems to have done little to no research on the effectiveness, ethical nature - or legality - of what he was witnessing.
He describes the program at the Academy at Swift River, and the ‘behavior modification techniques’ invented by the (now former) Swift River (and former Cedu) headmaster, Rudy Bentz, and his wife, Jill Shwaiko Bentz, who managed the lives of adolescents, with a brutal ’scared straight/tough love’ philosophy.
The Bentz’s, as well as other staff at the Cedu School, were also inappropriately physically close with students there; it was a Cedu philosophy to allow “smushing“, (or what sexually-active adults would call “cuddling”) between staff and students.
The book fails to offer any insight into the boundariless-ness of the Bentz’s philosophy-in-action, or a sense of ethics regarding the utility, helpfullness, effectiveness, discomfort and lack of compassion on view in the therapies. But it gets many of the details right.
Compare what you read Here, in a former students testimony, with what you find in the book.
The same philosophy is on view - essentially, “We won’t trust you, educate you, or give you individual counseling for your particular needs; instead, we’ll beat the bad out of you, shame it out of you, humiliate it out of you, bleed it, sweat it, yell, cry it, and scream it out of you.”
These programs still exist, and are truly abusive…and yet very poorly regulated, probably as a result of the blind spot through which we as a society choose to view their existence (or, more specifically, the blind spot put in place by the parents who send their children to them).
A little regulation is in order.
For more information, Please visit A-START, The Alliance for the Safe, Therapeutic and Appropriate use of Residential Treatment.
Read more on abusive/coercive therapeutic boarding schools at Fornits.com and ISAC
Mother Jones: The Cult That Spawned the Tough Love Industry
Posted in Surviving Cedu, The Popular Culture.
19 Responses to “Rudy Bentz and the Swift River Academy”
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http://74.125.45.104/search?q=cache:XaugvM9NPGMJ:fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php%3Ff%3D48%26t%3D15260%26start%3D0+%22dave+marcus%22+aspen&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=11&gl=us
I said all along that Marcus was a program shill - and he is. Recent news states that Marcus is now an "Emotional Growth Seminar Facilitator" working with renowned child abuser Rudy Bentz. Keep in mind neither Marcus nor Bentz have any education whatsoever in the area of mental health treatment.
Ha,Ha,Ha, You use a link within the forum? Ha,Ha,Ha That is truly a classic. I will book mark this post, thank you!! Try giving us something original or original source. Maybe news article, press release etc.
anyone can just write "All programs are effective" somewhere in the forum and then just link to it and say "See this is my proof" !! Ha,Ha,Ha
I think you are new here and I apologize for laughing, but many people use to do this all the time and thought they were fooling the readers.
If you checked both links, you would see that at that time in 2006, Dave Marcus was working as an "Emotional Growth Seminar Facilitator" alongside Rudy Bentz.
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The investigation to confirm Marcus's corruption now that the incriminating info has been deleted from the most obvious place is a bit beyond me now
Hmmmm. So still no proof? Thought so. Too bad.
So lets recap:
We have an independent study which says that TBS are effective and non abusive and we have a Pulitzer prized author who spent a year and a half inside a program and found it to be effective also.
Also no signs of Abuse were ever found in either case.
Now we are still waiting for your evidence that all programs are abusive. Maybe you can invent your own website and then link to that.. Oh wait!!!
Ha,Ha,Ha
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So it is official. The Who has gone from pathological to mentally retarted.
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TRANSFORM YOUR CHILD IN 1 DAY! Wtih THE TOTAL TRANSFORMATION!
A fine product! Bring the cult into your own home! Learn to...
http://www.thetotaltransformation.com/ (http://www.thetotaltransformation.com/)
1. Shame your children into submission!
2. Master attack therapy!
3. and motivate them through the use of fear tactics!
Is your child just a pain in the ass? Buy my product.
BUY!BUY!BUY!BUY!BUY!BUY!.....
....buy the way I'm being sarcastic.The new Who is so dumb he probably would've sided with me if I didn't say this.
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Have things got so bad that you have to invent your own source of information and facts? You created a web site that allows you to create information and then you can link to it and that site links back to fornits.
Wow, that is amazing. I never knew the pool of testimony and recent survivors with bad experiences has dried up that much. So this is further proof that the industry continues to improve and the ineffective programs are fading out. I think this is a good sign for all of us. I know you probably don’t see it that way now but there is a silver lining there for all of you. The industry is changing quicker than we all thought and fornits probably had a hand in all of this.
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Yes. He is that stupid. His condition has apparently gotten worse.
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http://www.rubinedu.com/team/bentz.html (http://www.rubinedu.com/team/bentz.html)
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Seriously people! Look at this shit! It's taken on a whole new form! Am I the only one who thinks this is scary?
http://www.thetotaltransformation.com/About.aspx (http://www.thetotaltransformation.com/About.aspx)
I've learned to be a better parent. , August 03, 2008
Review by : ImDrMom
As a medical doctor, I have learned how to diagnose and treat many ailments. But I was unable to cope with my teenage son's bad behaviors. His back-talking, smart mouth, his unwillingness to do his homework and general disobedience were causing me to scream all the time. Our interactions were poor. His guidance counselor, and our minister both talked with him to no avail. I was ready to send him off to a boot camp. Finally out of desperation I ordered the Total Transformation Program I had heard advertised on the radio. What a fanatastic program! I am a huge fan of the behavior modification approach that Mr. Lehman espouses. We have seen some major improvements already. I have recommended the program to others suffering with poorly behaving children and the pain it brings to the whole family. I highly endorse this plan and it is worth every penny!
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Yes. He is that stupid. His condition has apparently gotten worse.
It's not stupid it's a cult member or shill. What it, or its employers, don't recognize is that when it attempts to support its cult through insane non sequiturs and self-evidently untrue statements it reveals its master as the monster it is.
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Fuck you asshole. The studies saying they're ineffective have been posted IN THIS VERY THREAD. If you're too stupid to find it, I can't help that.
I have been providing you studies and independent people who have written about programs. Its information, whether a student paper or Pulitzer prize author. Most of the information we hear here on fornits comes from people with less qualifications than that.
Again.......burden of proof falls upon those claiming success, especially when we're talking about things like medical treatment. Even though we've provided NIH studies AND MORE (which you conveniently ignore), all you can come up with are a paper written by a grad student (not a clinical study) and a book written by a guy who is PAID by the program he wrote about.
How sad for you.
Show us your proof that the person was paid to write the novel by the program. See, I know you are lying because I was there at the time and know the circumstances.
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In what capacity were you at aspen education', bain capitol, and Rudy Bentz's of Cedu, the abduction and torture gulag, "Academy At Swift River" the year over which this book was written
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Seriously people! Look at this shit! It's taken on a whole new form! Am I the only one who thinks this is scary?
http://www.thetotaltransformation.com/About.aspx (http://www.thetotaltransformation.com/About.aspx)
Re. "The Program," it's probably not as bad as the website makes it seem. I clicked on one of the sample snippets, and it's pretty common sense stuff (note that these snippets aren't very long, so I didn't hear much). What is scary is all of the marketing hyperbole and hoopla.
On the plus side, you could probably pick it up on eBay for a fraction of the ~$350...<cough cough>...the website will charge you. More importantly, the kid stays home.
What I found MOST interesting about your link, however, was James Lehman's bio. I'd be willing to bet my best bear suit that that guy spent some serious time in one or more of the first therapeutic communities that sprung up in Brooklyn or the Bronx. Like Daytop or Phoenix House, etc. Perhaps even right around the time that Art Barker was getting his start in those parts... (but probably a wee bit later).
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Seriously people! Look at this shit! It's taken on a whole new form! Am I the only one who thinks this is scary?
http://www.thetotaltransformation.com/About.aspx (http://www.thetotaltransformation.com/About.aspx)
Re. "The Program," it's probably not as bad as the website makes it seem. I clicked on one of the sample snippets, and it's pretty common sense stuff (note that these snippets aren't very long, so I didn't hear much). What is scary is all of the marketing hyperbole and hoopla.
On the plus side, you could probably pick it up on eBay for a fraction of the ~$350...<cough cough>...the website will charge you. More importantly, the kid stays home.
What I found MOST interesting about your link, however, was James Lehman's bio. I'd be willing to bet my best bear suit that that guy spent some serious time in one or more of the first therapeutic communities that sprung up in Brooklyn or the Bronx. Like Daytop or Phoenix House, etc. Perhaps even right around the time that Art Barker was getting his start in those parts... (but probably a wee bit later).
I find thewho's sudden silence humorous. I can't help but feel it got a call from master Rudy Bentz to cool it, 'cause it's flashing heat on the Academy At Swift River/Cedu/Synanon-EST-Lifestrpping-Werner Ernhard criminal org. and he likes to keep it on the down low.
Man, imagine having abducted, imprisoned and tortured 1000s of kids, and being just a statute of limitations, just a corrupt or "hands-tied" bureaucracy's hair's breathe from going to the slammer. Wow.
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Man, imagine having abducted, imprisoned and tortured 1000s of kids, and being just a statute of limitations, just a corrupt or "hands-tied" bureaucracy's hair's breathe from going to the slammer. Wow.
The big difference is that he is happy and your not.
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Man, imagine having abducted, imprisoned and tortured 1000s of kids, and being just a statute of limitations, just a corrupt or "hands-tied" bureaucracy's hair's breathe from going to the slammer. Wow.
The big difference is that he is happy and your not.
Yes, That's the fantastic thing about being a sociopath. See, me? I'm haunted by memories of that child I watched him murder back at Cedu.
I think of this child everyday.
Then I dream of this child at night.
This innocent, blameless creature that he abducted, imprisoned, slaved, molested, psychologically tortured, physically asphyxiated into nothing.I can't get past it.
Him? He's a sociopath. I doubt he even remembers his name. Not even his name.
I have no doubt he's happy...but you know what? This isn't over. He should laugh while he can.
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Man, imagine having abducted, imprisoned and tortured 1000s of kids, and being just a statute of limitations, just a corrupt or "hands-tied" bureaucracy's hair's breathe from going to the slammer. Wow.
The big difference is that he is happy and your not.
Yes, That's the fantastic thing about being a sociopath. See, me? I'm haunted by memories of that child I watched him murder back at Cedu.
I think of this child everyday.
Then I dream of this child at night.
This innocent, blameless creature that he abducted, imprisoned, slaved, molested, psychologically tortured, physically asphyxiated into nothing.I can't get past it.
Him? He's a sociopath. I doubt he even remembers his name. Not even his name.
I have no doubt he's happy...but you know what? This isn't over. He should laugh while he can.
Its funny how everyone has a different perspective. I have seen way too many kids physically/mentally abused, molested and isolated in jail because they were allowed to continue down a destructive path without any healthy intervention. The parents probably ended up paying $100,000 in legal fees anyway but what they end up with is a hardened kid who can relate to jail birds better than their own family or peers who have been educated. I get much more satisfaction focusing on and remembering all the kids who worked hard and that have been put back on track thru many of these TBS’s then I do those who never applied themselves.
Try talking to other kids who have passed thru the industry and you will gain a broader perspective, I guarantee you. Then meet some of these kids who are just coming out of lock-up and compare them to kids who are emerging from a TBS. I think you will see why I sleep well at night.
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Its funny how everyone has a different perspective. I have seen way too many kids physically/mentally abused, molested and isolated in jail because they were allowed to continue down a destructive path without any healthy intervention. The parents probably ended up paying $100,000 in legal fees anyway but what they end up with is a hardened kid who can relate to jail birds better than their own family or peers who have been educated. I get much more satisfaction focusing on and remembering all the kids who worked hard and that have been put back on track thru many of these TBS’s then I do those who never applied themselves.
Try talking to other kids who have passed thru the industry and you will gain a broader perspective, I guarantee you. Then meet some of these kids who are just coming out of lock-up and compare them to kids who are emerging from a TBS. I think you will see why I sleep well at night.
:bs:
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Try talking to other kids who have passed thru the industry and you will gain a broader perspective, I guarantee you.
Why, pray tell, do I keep hearing about these kids with "positive" experiences, but have never seen or heard from one? Might you do all of negative ninnies here a favor and bring some here so that they might enlighten us with this new, wonderful, perspective on what most, even casual observers, would consider abuse.
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Its funny how everyone has a different perspective. I have seen way too many kids physically/mentally abused, molested and isolated in jail because they were allowed to continue down a destructive path without any healthy intervention. The parents probably ended up paying $100,000 in legal fees anyway but what they end up with is a hardened kid who can relate to jail birds better than their own family or peers who have been educated. I get much more satisfaction focusing on and remembering all the kids who worked hard and that have been put back on track thru many of these TBS’s then I do those who never applied themselves.
Try talking to other kids who have passed thru the industry and you will gain a broader perspective, I guarantee you. Then meet some of these kids who are just coming out of lock-up and compare them to kids who are emerging from a TBS. I think you will see why I sleep well at night.
Try talking to other kids who have passed thru the industry and you will gain a broader perspective, I guarantee you.
Why, pray tell, do I keep hearing about these kids with "positive" experiences, but have never seen or heard from one? Might you do all of negative ninnies here a favor and bring some here so that they might enlighten us with this new, wonderful, perspective on what most, even casual observers, would consider abuse.
No Psy, the kid who was molested by Rudy Bentz was not "MOLESTED." He recieved "THERAPY." He just didn't have the right "PERSPECTIVE" about it, or "apply it in a postive way"!
I prefer to think about the kids who "worked hard" and were "put back on track" by being molested by Rudy Bentz
Rapunzel
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Its funny how everyone has a different perspective. I have seen way too many kids physically/mentally abused, molested and isolated in jail because they were allowed to continue down a destructive path without any healthy intervention. The parents probably ended up paying $100,000 in legal fees anyway but what they end up with is a hardened kid who can relate to jail birds better than their own family or peers who have been educated. I get much more satisfaction focusing on and remembering all the kids who worked hard and that have been put back on track thru many of these TBS’s then I do those who never applied themselves.
Try talking to other kids who have passed thru the industry and you will gain a broader perspective, I guarantee you. Then meet some of these kids who are just coming out of lock-up and compare them to kids who are emerging from a TBS. I think you will see why I sleep well at night
I see what you're saying about jail time, but I can assure you, from personal experience, that it doesn't happen quite so dramatically in the real world. Courts are generally pretty sensitive about precisely that possible self-identification, especially when the kid comes from your tax bracket. Time spent in juvie is meant to be as much culture shock as it is meant punitively or as an intervention, and often works.
What you don't get in juvie, unless you're on one of those TC-inspired psycho wards, is a whole lot of mind-fuckery like you get in a TBS. Worse, if actual physical or sexual abuse or assault occurs in a TBS, it is always cloaked in ample Kool-Aid that indicates that this was done "in the spirit of helping the kid." If said transgression is too severe for that to be believable, facts are skewed or changed to indicate that it actually was the kid's fault.
Outside of the fact that this is clearly an immoral charlatan's way of making a living, it totally screws up the kid's self concept and self-identity afterwards. I would say, without some serious and humane intervention with a knowledgeable and independent therapist (almost impossible to find) to undo the damage done by the TBS, said kid could easily be viewed as a ticking time bomb for the next 5-6 years.
There are other, genuinely healthy interventions which do not involve mind-fuckery. The pool of possibilities is not limited to only jail or TBS. That is just what they were trying to sell you.
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I see what you're saying about jail time, but I can assure you, from personal experience, that it doesn't happen quite so dramatically in the real world. Courts are generally pretty sensitive about precisely that possible self-identification, especially when the kid comes from your tax bracket. Time spent in juvie is meant to be as much culture shock as it is meant punitively or as an intervention, and often works.
Yes, I do agree that kids just don’t jump right into jail time. Our local court system is actually really sensitive to not destroying the kids in their first or second offenses. But this only applies pretty much to the middle and lower classes. Kids from families in the upper middle to upper class never see juvie or even overnight in the can for a little punitive intervention because they don’t want their kids exposed to whomever could be in there with them and maybe get hurt. If local services do not work then non local is the next step.
What you don't get in juvie, unless you're on one of those TC-inspired psycho wards, is a whole lot of mind-fuckery like you get in a TBS. Worse, if actual physical or sexual abuse or assault occurs in a TBS, it is always cloaked in ample Kool-Aid that indicates that this was done "in the spirit of helping the kid." If said transgression is too severe for that to be believable, facts are skewed or changed to indicate that it actually was the kid's fault.
Outside of the fact that this is clearly an immoral charlatan's way of making a living, it totally screws up the kid's self concept and self-identity afterwards. I would say, without some serious and humane intervention with a knowledgeable and independent therapist (almost impossible to find) to undo the damage done by the TBS, said kid could easily be viewed as a ticking time bomb for the next 5-6 years.
There are other, genuinely healthy interventions which do not involve mind-fuckery. The pool of possibilities is not limited to only jail or TBS. That is just what they were trying to sell you.
Jail time isn’t the way to go for many people and believe me it is always an option if you have the right lawyer and parents would rather send their child go to a boarding type school for $7,000 a month in a heartbeat to get the help they need for their child then to have kid go to jail or have the neighbors read about their kids problems published in the news paper. Programs can be a very discreet option also which is a perk. I believe there are many healthier interventions for children. But sometimes they just don’t work and something else must be done. TBS are at the end of the rope.
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...or have the neighbors read about their kids problems published in the news paper. Programs can be a very discreet option also which is a perk.
And i'm sure that is a primary factor in many parent's decisions: their own vanity.
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...or have the neighbors read about their kids problems published in the news paper. Programs can be a very discreet option also which is a perk.
And i'm sure that is a primary factor in many parent's decisions: their own vanity.
No its not primary, but it is part of it.
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...or have the neighbors read about their kids problems published in the news paper. Programs can be a very discreet option also which is a perk.
And i'm sure that is a primary factor in many parent's decisions: their own vanity.
No its not primary, but it is part of it.
So you're admitting parents make a program decision partially of concern to their own reputation/egos, and not necessarily exclusively for the good of their child. What about the really vane parents, or those that are concerned with their child's religious or sexual preference (and those choices on their parent's social standing)? Tell me how many programs care as long as they're receiving cash? It's precisely for those reasons why due process is so important, and why treatment (forced change) should never be coerced. It turns people into machines. Trained child pets for the benefit of the parents.
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Recommended (re)reading:
The Emperor's New Clothes -- blueprint for how parents are "groomed"
Lord of The Flies -- a small glimpse of life in program[/list]
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So you're admitting parents make a program decision partially of concern to their own reputation/egos, and not necessarily exclusively for the good of their child.
Of course, everything is considered... cash available, liquidation of stock assets, interruption of vacation, flight schedules, school schedule. It cannot ever be 100% for the 1 child... maybe 99.999% but not all. There are other considerations... social standing is one. If your child were to run for president someday ASR would be better on his record then Juvie. Parents do alot to keep the record clean.
What about the really vane parents, or those that are concerned with their child's religious or sexual preference (and those choices on their parent's social standing)?
I am sure parents make mistakes that they regret and like the general population parents run the full gamut as far as how fit they are to make intelligent decisions.
Tell me how many programs care as long as they're receiving cash?
Not sure what you mean? Like does the car dealer really care if you pay him before you drive the car off? Will the local therapist work for free? Insurance typically allows 12 sessions so the average doctor will not see your kid more than once a month unless they can get increased coverage (if you are not working out of pocket)
It's precisely for those reasons why due process is so important, and why treatment (forced change) should never be coerced. It turns people into machines. Trained child pets for the benefit of the parents.
If you have read anything about me you would know I don’t believe treatment can be forced and still be effective. Do I think kids want to be there? No. Do kids want to be at school in general? No. But that is why the programs are so long. It takes time to gain the trust of a new therapist, or new people in general. The first few months my daughter had a hard time with her new therapist, but that occurs whether you are inside or out of a program. Over time she was able to connect and things worked for her.
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...or have the neighbors read about their kids problems published in the news paper. Programs can be a very discreet option also which is a perk.
And i'm sure that is a primary factor in many parent's decisions: their own vanity.
No its not primary, but it is part of it.
So you're admitting parents make a program decision partially of concern to their own reputation/egos, and not necessarily exclusively for the good of their child. What about the really vane parents, or those that are concerned with their child's religious or sexual preference (and those choices on their parent's social standing)? Tell me how many programs care as long as they're receiving cash? It's precisely for those reasons why due process is so important, and why treatment (forced change) should never be coerced. It turns people into machines. Trained child pets for the benefit of the parents.
Needless to say, these programs don't turn out pets; they turn out profoundly debilitated human beings, who are ripe for further exploitation by their narcissistic guardians.
It’s a sad reality which requires super-human resiliency and a lot of holy cow luck to escape
1984 is a better book for understanding the gulags: Cedu Running Springs,Cedu middle school, Cascade, Carlbrook, Academy at Swift River, Desisto formed by: Rudy Bentz, Jill Bentz, Steve Laird, Tim Brace, Mel Wasserman, Lou Woodbury, Mike Desisto, Charles Deidrich, Werner Erhard (thewho's owners).
We often wonder about thewho's identity. I think a good way would be to pool our info about all the staff and peer staff, until we've singled out the stupidest one to ever be indoctrinated. When we find this ultimate retard, we will have thewho.
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ASR would be better on his record then Juvie.
Juvenile records are sealed.
Tell me how many programs care as long as they're receiving cash?
Not sure what you mean?
What I mean is: will a program reject a kid, knowing he/she has no real issues, if the parents have money and are willing to pay anyway.
If you have read anything about me you would know I don’t believe treatment can be forced and still be effective.
Aha. So you're saying that kids should never be "escorted" to programs? Seems like a change of opinion to me.
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Needless to say, these programs don't turn out pets; they turn out profoundly debilitated human beings, who are ripe for further exploitation by their narcissistic guardians.
Ever seen the movie "Unleashed" with Jet Li? (Aka "Danny the Dog" by it's European title)
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0342258/ (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0342258/)
Pretty sure you'd like it.
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What I mean is: will a program reject a kid, knowing he/she has no real issues, if the parents have money and are willing to pay anyway
I am sure some would not. But I know that some will not take a child until they are examined and understand their issues. If parents want to send their child anyway iam sure they can find a place if they have the money.
Aha. So you're saying that kids should never be "escorted" to programs? Seems like a change of opinion to me.
I am not in favour of escorts, but I am sure they are needed. I don’t believe everything is black and white. Once a child is settled down, feels comfortable and safe they can begin to open up and work.
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"Comfortable" and "safe" are two words I would hardly use to describe program tactics. Usually programs strive to break kids down, which usually involves taking a kid "out of his comfort zone" and making him feel "vulnerable" and "powerless". What, you say? There is this magical program that doesn't do this? Pray tell what is it's name, and provide a survivor we all can ask about his experiences so we don't know you're just pulling shit out of your marketing cookbook.
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I am not in favour of escorts, but I am sure they are needed.
Needed?
But you just said "I don’t believe treatment can be forced and still be effective". Uneffective, harmful, treatment is "needed"?
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I am not in favour of escorts, but I am sure they are needed.
Needed?
But you just said "I don’t believe treatment can be forced and still be effective". Uneffective, harmful, treatment is "needed"?
An Escort is just transporting a person from one place to the next. If the child does not take to the therapy or make a connection with his/her therapist then the treatment would not be effective. It wont happen overnight either way. Escorts are difficult because I beleive the child needs to be at least bought into idea of attending the place initially.
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I am not in favour of escorts, but I am sure they are needed.
Needed?
But you just said "I don’t believe treatment can be forced and still be effective". Uneffective, harmful, treatment is "needed"?
Why r u continuing a convo withthis guy? The initial issue(s) have been resloved (no medical proof ever produced ANY program does anything but hurt captives)Rudy Bentz murdered a kid. You just continue on & on with this guy.....
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I am not in favour of escorts, but I am sure they are needed.
Needed?
But you just said "I don’t believe treatment can be forced and still be effective". Uneffective, harmful, treatment is "needed"?
An Escort is just transporting a person from one place to the next. If the child does not take to the therapy or make a connection with his/her therapist then the treatment would not be effective. It wont happen overnight either way. Escorts are difficult because I beleive the child needs to be at least bought into idea of attending the place initially.
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Don't you mean, "I beleive the child needs to be at least SOLD on the idea of attending the place initially."?? tsk tsk. Get your marketing spiel right. What would Lon think?
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Why r u continuing a convo withthis guy? The initial issue(s) have been resloved (no medical proof ever produced ANY program does anything but hurt captives)Rudy Bentz murdered a kid. You just continue on & on with this guy.....
Because we finished up with you. You have not been able to prove one statement you have made. You are a total mess and a waste of time, anyone can just spout off about who killed who and who was raped and who was abused. But at some point you need to come to the table and provide proof. That hasn’t happened yet. I have supported my positions with facts and links outside of fornits. So far you haven’t been able to do this. Most of us understand why, but we just can accept what you say until you can start supporting your statements.
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Don't you mean, "I beleive the child needs to be at least SOLD on the idea of attending the place initially."?? tsk tsk. Get your marketing spiel right. What would Lon think?
Ha,Ha,Ha Freudian slip?
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I am not in favour of escorts, but I am sure they are needed.
Needed?
But you just said "I don’t believe treatment can be forced and still be effective". Uneffective, harmful, treatment is "needed"?
An Escort is just transporting a person from one place to the next.
in hand-cuffs and restraints... Forcefully. And where are they going forcefully? To "treatment" which you admitted above was inherantly doomed to failure. You said "I don’t believe treatment can be forced and still be effective". One statement I whole-heartedely agree with.
Escorts are difficult because I beleive the child needs to be at least bought into idea of attending the place initially.
Yes, and hand-cuffs and goons with pepperspray are going to help him to "buy into the idea" of attending the place. Ah. I am beginnging to see what you qualify as persuasion. Seems fairly coercive to me, which is not to say decieving a kid into attending a program is any better, as it's not a decision made with full informed consent.
I'm glad you agree progarms don't work, though, as I've yet to see one that doesnt' force "treatment" on kids. And again, as I pointed out above "What, you say? There is this magical program that doesn't do this? Pray tell what is it's name, and provide a survivor we all can ask about his experiences so we don't know you're just pulling shit out of your marketing cookbook."
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Yes, and hand-cuffs and goons with pepperspray are going to help him to "buy into the idea" of attending the place. Ah. I am beginnging to see what you qualify as persuasion. Seems fairly coercive to me, which is not to say decieving a kid into attending a program is any better, as it's not a decision made with full informed consent.
No, the escort service is only there to function as transportation.... As I have said before I am not a big fan of escorts. They provide service from point A to point B. Their function is not therapy.
I'm glad you agree progarms don't work, though, as I've yet to see one that doesnt' force "treatment" on kids. And again, as I pointed out above "What, you say? There is this magical program that doesn't do this? Pray tell what is it's name, and provide a survivor we all can ask about his experiences so we don't know you're just pulling shit out of your marketing cookbook."
I don’t believe I ever stated that programs don’t work unless you are taking me out of context somewhere. I guess it depends on how you define forced treatment. If a parent says you have 2 choices.... go to therapy or quit the football team then the kid is being forced into therapy. Would this work? Maybe... it would get the kid in the door and maybe start talking... things may work out over time. So I don’t think a child who was escorted would be starting out willingly to open up. But with the right therapist, time and realization that there are not many other options then the child may take to it. The key is to provide the least restrictive environment possible. For some this is a local therapist for others it is a program.
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Fuck you asshole. The studies saying they're ineffective have been posted IN THIS VERY THREAD. If you're too stupid to find it, I can't help that.
I have been providing you studies and independent people who have written about programs. Its information, whether a student paper or Pulitzer prize author. Most of the information we hear here on fornits comes from people with less qualifications than that.
Again.......burden of proof falls upon those claiming success, especially when we're talking about things like medical treatment. Even though we've provided NIH studies AND MORE (which you conveniently ignore), all you can come up with are a paper written by a grad student (not a clinical study) and a book written by a guy who is PAID by the program he wrote about.
How sad for you.
Show us your proof that the person was paid to write the novel by the program. See, I know you are lying because I was there at the time and know the circumstances. You wonder why I don’t believe many of your stories is because I catch you lying about facts like these why would you all of a sudden start telling the truth when talking about your time in the program?
See what I mean? This is why I don’t believe many of you and are cautious about most of the stories you tell. I have good reason not to believe you.
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Fuck you asshole. The studies saying they're ineffective have been posted IN THIS VERY THREAD. If you're too stupid to find it, I can't help that.
I have been providing you studies and independent people who have written about programs. Its information, whether a student paper or Pulitzer prize author. Most of the information we hear here on fornits comes from people with less qualifications than that.
Again.......burden of proof falls upon those claiming success, especially when we're talking about things like medical treatment. Even though we've provided NIH studies AND MORE (which you conveniently ignore), all you can come up with are a paper written by a grad student (not a clinical study) and a book written by a guy who is PAID by the program he wrote about.
How sad for you.
Show us your proof that the person was paid to write the novel by the program. See, I know you are lying because I was there at the time and know the circumstances. You wonder why I don’t believe many of your stories is because I catch you lying about facts like these why would you all of a sudden start telling the truth when talking about your time in the program?
See what I mean? This is why I don’t believe many of you and are cautious about most of the stories you tell. I have good reason not to believe you.
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Take a look at Greg Kutz's testimony on your industry again, or is the GAO too biased for you? Effectiveness is a moot point when you're discussing the abusive and sometimes fatal practices of programs. I'll take the GAO's report over some grad student. I'm surprised you haven't trotted out Keith Russell's Wilderness study, but you probably know better.
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Hate to break it to you, but you ain't foolin' anyone.
Here's an interesting post. Tells ya all about Academy at Swift River ya need to know (Werner Erhard/Charles Dietrich's zombie knows better to name an a specific helpful "program" when challenged, as that would mean the inevitable highlighting of the specific "program's policy of abduction, imprisonment, and torture, but he's such a nut he can't keep be consistant in meeting his objective)
Really, this guy is a commercial spammer who floods the forum and should be treated as such
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t= (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=) ... &start=300
Perhaps as a former student/client/survivor/inmate/whatever you want to call it, I can shed some light on the subject. I was in peer group 17, I was at ASR from October of 2000 to December of 2001. During my stay I was under the impression that the lifesteps were essentially unchanged from the start of the program up until then. I can't say anything about 2002 and onward. As was said before, they were about anger, insecurities, reconnecting with core self, (aka inner child) and forgiveness. They were held in the library in the academic building, and generally started around mid evening on a friday or saturday night, and lasted between 12 and 24 hours. Hard to tell exactly because they made a policy of taking our watches beforehand. All I know was that at the latest, we were asleep in our beds by the normal lights out the next night, except for the 4th lifestep, where we slept in tents overnight outside the library. That was about 36 hours altogether.
They definitely fed us, slightly less than usual, but more than adequate for a day's nutrition. As for sleep deprivation, we were up way past our bedtimes, which were tightly regulated, so any alterations to the routine were quite noticeable. While we were up late, full of anxiety and stress, we were subjected to a lot of yelling, a lot of exercises and workshops designed to illustrate how our behaviors were hurting us. There was a lot of crying, screaming, cursing, quiet time for writing, (read: kids can't talk, counselors walk around reading what's being written and pontificating about the topics being written about. My point is that it was very intense and quite overwhelming. I don't remember every single detail of the experiences, but I will try to include what I can.
The most memorable thing about the first lifestep was an exercise called dyads. This involved pairing up with a buddy and holding them while screaming at the top of our lungs all the things we hated our parents and ourselves for, for minutes at a time. I distinctly remember spitting up blood and being encouraged to continue screaming. There were also short group therapy sessions, there were exercises involving listing all the things our parents had ever done to hurt us, focusing on all the pain and suffering that we'd ever felt and how angry it made us. After all of us were exhausted we read letters our parents sent us about how much they loved us and why they chose to send us away. Needless to say there was a lot of crying.
The second lifestep had exercises where we had to sit in a circle, while one of us would walk around from person to person to hear whether that one or this one considered them a "giver" or a "taker". After we'd all judged each other we had to say to people why we felt this way about them. Some of this took the form of harsh criticism masked as praise. There were exercises involving how we judge ourselves and how we present ourselves to others. We had to wear cards around our necks that labeled us as one thing or another to supposedly demonstrate how restrictive the images we present to people can be. I remember carving images into cubes of sandstone to symbolize all the good qualities we had and who we really were. I also remember listening to Enya and other new age music, and doing a warped guided meditation which, rather than enhancing relaxation heightens emotions like guilt, sadness and fear. It was either in this lifestep or the third that we did an exercise involving manic, happy music, and all of us being instructed to smile until it started to hurt, and walk around laughing and smiling and looking at each other for about 5-10 minutes with the song on repeat. By the end many were crying, some were on the verge of hysteria.
The third lifestep was probably the most traumatic and damaging. It involved internalizing immense guilt. We had to write down anything and everything that we'd ever done to hurt ourselves, told how horrible it was, then forced to look at childhood pictures of ourselves that our parents had mailed to the school. Sitting there for what seemed like hours being yelled at because all the mistakes, impulses, and self destruction we'd gone through were "horrible things that we, as horrible people had done to the innocent children that we were" We were told to imagine all these wrongdoings being visited upon these children, as if we'd done them to some helpless little kid ourselves. Hurting yourself because you're horribly depressed is suddenly akin to torturing preschoolers. Talk about cognitive dissonance! We had to draw a symbolic portrait of ourselves involving all our interests, loves, etc., then tack the childhood picture to it. The other focus of this lifestep was the emotional manipulations or games that we use in an attempt to fill holes in our lives. We acted out all the games we each typically used, and had our peer group guess which one. Games such as playing the victim, using intimidation, attention games, the "everything is fine" game, etc.
The fourth lifestep involved a modified Native American sweat ritual. One of these took place before the first lifestep, almost a pre lifestep. This ritual was kind of like group therapy in a sauna, with some new age religious undertones. We were smudged with sage before entering the sweat lodge, there was a little discussion about purification. We talked about grudges we held, and how they weighed us down. To illustrate this concept physically, we took a long walk in the woods late at night, each of us carrying a rock about the size of a large melon and being lectured to about how we weigh ourselves down by not letting things go. We weren't allowed to put down the rocks, and the walk lasted somewhere between 1 and 2 hours. Being able to set down the rock was supposed to symbolize how good it feels to let go of anger and resentment. Perfect timing, the program's almost over, let's assuage some of the anger that comes from having a year of your life stolen.
All in all I would say that these lifesteps are a clear indication of the cult like way that the academy is run. In addition I would like to comment on the pervasive nature of the levels and punishment/reward system that was in effect. Profanity was punishable by doing pushups, we were continually encouraged to report each other for anything and everything, for our own good. Dish duty would be assigned for having a shirt untucked or for not cleaning the dorm before breakfast adequately. Being late to meetings or classes had similar consequences. Consequences, not punishments. There was no such thing as a punishment at ASR, just like there were no rules, only Agreements. Since you agreed to not do this or that, you had already accepted the consequence for breaking the agreement. I don't remember ever signing a contract, but then again, since as a minor you don't really have rights or the ability to sign contracts, none of that matters. The point is, it was a very effective technique for fostering obedience through guilt. You didn't just fuck up, you went back on your word and let down the school. The rule system was so pervasive it was difficult to make it through an entire day without breaking at least one. Privileges were removed at the drop of a hat. If you read too many books, you were avoiding people, and weren't allowed to read for pleasure. If you were rude or rowdy you might go on a restriction and lose the privilege of any and all recreational activity for between 1 and 4 weeks. Restrictions could involve being on "bans" with groups or individuals in the school, such as "bans with all lower school students", or all females, all males, etc. You couldn't talk to people you were on bans with or you faced serious consquences. This often caused difficulty in coordinating schoolwork with therapy. Restrictions ended when counselors felt you'd accepted whatever you'd done was horribly wrong and you felt horrible about it/learned something. Then you'd tell the whole school about it and apologize at the end of the day meeting.
Academics are another concern. The options for classes were limited, the teachers often weren't qualified. My chemistry teacher was an English major who was only a chapter ahead of the class each week. He was filling in until they found someone who knew chemistry. Most of the teachers, even those qualified to teach their subject, did not know how to deal with kids with learning disabilities, or kids who acted out constantly. This had a negative effect on the amount of actual teaching that got done. Student's writings, paintings, etc. were often censored for being to dark, too imagey, too negative, too sexual, etc. Reading material was restricted, the library was full of outdated books and random novels, all of it unorganized. On numerous occasions books I'd found in the library were confiscated, apparently even some of them weren't appropriate.
Inmates faced a barrage of emotional abuse from counselors and students alike. Students tried to curry favor by enforcing rules and ratting on others. Once an accusation of rulebreaking, innapropriate behavior, telling "warstories" i.e. talking less than disdainfully about anything ASR didn't like, such as drugs, sex, stunts we'd pulled that got us sent there. Challenging the rules for any reason was being manipulative, denying an accusation was being in denial. Getting upset at false accusations was an attempt to intimidate the accuser. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
At least a third of the inmates were on either wellbutrin or adderall. You got to see one of the 2 psychiatrists the school employed, no one from outside. You weren't allowed to refuse medication either.
Some of the other issues in the program were a lack of policies on various issues such as religions, sexual orientation, and a number of other things. For example, Rudy Bentz the headmaster would frequently speak of a higher power in thinly veiled judeo-christian propaganda terms, and there was a clear preference for mainstream religions. Shortly after 9-11 in a schoolwide discussion, he failed to reprimand or even comment on an inmate yelling in front of the school an insensitive comment about "fucking towelheads". Wiccan or Buddhist students were often slighted, or accused of using the religion as part of their image rather than professing a sincere belief. Big fucking christmas tree up in the common room, slight chanukah concession for the few jewish kids, nothing for anyone else.
On other occasions, I was told by certain counselors that I did not know what my sexual orientation was and I was going through a delusional phase where I mistakenly believed I was bisexual. Yet other counselors told me it was normal and natural and to trust myself. The lack of clear policies on these and other issues created untold confusion and despair.
All in all, I think the program has absolutely minimal potential to help anyone, and most of the help it offers comes solely from the extended period of time away from a harmful home environment, and the substantial reflection it necessitates. The entire premise revolves around group mentality, breaking down and moulding psyches, a complex reward and punishment system combined with censorship and constant, constant, constant reinforcement of obedience that comes from never knowing whether or not you're "in agreement" (currently not violating or witholding a confession about past violations of the rules), and always worrying about being punished.
Through the use of repetitive propaganda, peer pressure, and psycholinguistics, the process of conveniently rephrasing everything to give it a slant that is in line with the belief you're trying to force upon a captive population. Rules are agreements, punishments are consequences, shoveling snow for 6 hours is "getting back in agreement", expressing your feelings in an unapproved manner is either acting out or manipulative behavior.
The Academy at Swift River has done untold damage to hundreds of children whose only crime was being born to parents who held them to unreasonable standards, often abused them mentally, physically and sexually, often were alcoholics or drug addicts or suffered from mental disorders, and thought that money could fix their kid. There is a certain amount of accountability on the parents part, but it's pretty much lip service when you get right down to it. Kids are beaten, berated, treated as less than human, and shipped away to prison without a trial when they understandably start to act out in these circumstances. They go through a 14 month sentence of emotional torture under questionable auspices, subjected to the horrors I've described above. To claim that the parents who sent them there are being called to task because they have to go through a 3 hour group therapy session once every 3 months and hear about how they fucked up their kid doesn't even begin to address the issues at hand.
The whole thing is a twisted mixture of cult and psych ward, it should be burnt to the ground and its founders should be jailed.
http://www.culthelp.info/index.php?opti (http://www.culthelp.info/index.php?opti) ... &Itemid=12
DAY 1, Thursday evening. Agree or Else
The participants sign an agreement which includes non-disclosure of the processes used. It is my understanding that mental/therapeutic processess are not proprietary, and cannot be covered by patent, copyright or trade secret laws and thus violating nondisclosure cannot hold up in court. I will refrain from mentioning the name of the specific training I experienced and any process used in the training that cannot be documented elsewhere.
Dr. Margaret Singer writes about LGATs in her book, "Cults in Our Midst".
"The program trainers and leaders typically get agreement from participants that they will not tell anyone about the processes that occur. To do so "will spoil it for your friends, family, co-workers etc, when they take the course. Tell them what you got out of it trainers advise. This means be vague about the actual content and provide glowing endorsements telling others that the training turned your life around but do not tell them how emotional, dramatic, confrontational, and unnerving the sessions can be for some people. Because of this promise, consumers who buy and attend these seminars do so without information about how psychologically, socially, and sometimes physically stressing the event can be."
"Day one is usually devoted to demonstrating the leader's absolute authority. The leader, or trainer immediately takes control of the setting with a demeanor that suggests he is a powerful, in-charge person and no one is to challenge what he says. He remains totally in charge, acts knowledgeable, and is practiced in verbal skills so that he never loses an encounter. Anyone who challenges the trainer will be humiliated and verbally mashed."
The first day started Thursday evening around 7. After some introductory stuff welcoming people, etc. the trainer brings up *THE AGREEMENT*. The attitude and tone of voice of the trainer predictably becomes stern and unyielding in a way to purposely provoke a response from the attendees.
The first point brought up is about not revealing the processes or personal information that is shared. Since people will be sharing some very deep personal secrets then this is common sense but people do not know this in advance. The processes are not unique to the course and not proprietary but people do not know this.
The second point was about attending all the course including the followup session and also being on time. Several people objected to this stating they had other commitments family or otherwise. There were some people from out of town who could not make the next Tuesday evening followup.
Everyone of them was was met with unyielding harshness from the trainer. One of the arguments the trainer makes was if they would only "get it" they could make the space for the course in their schedule and "getting it" would also keep others from interrupting their attendance. "Getting it", of course means that we create our own reality or experience by our thinking and interpretation. However, this is not explained at this point and is designed only to provoke more responses from attendees. Several people storm out of the room. However there are ample staff people to handle those who leave. Outside, people are pressured by the staff to return to the course. Most end up coming back in the room while a few never return.
Other rules include not talking unless called upon, not sitting next to anyone you knew prior to the training, no eating, drinking, gum chewing, etc. Some people saw fit to argue with that. At this point the show begins to get quite boring as it had been over 3 hours that we were in the ballroom. At least we were allowed potty breaks as needed so I took one. When I got back the trainer was finishing up the agreements and we were asked to stand if we agreed. So we did. Then we were allowed a 20 minute break. We were reminded to be in our seats (precisely arranged and marked with tape on the floor) on time for the next part.
When we come back there is lecture which include some of the basic philosophy/pop psychology of LGATs. One can certainly read about the philosophy in John Hanley's book, Lifespring available from Lifespring (http://www.lifespringinc.com (http://www.lifespringinc.com))
Later we were asked to pair off into a diad (one on one exercises). What we did was an awareness exercise of staring into the other persons eyes in silence for several minutes. Then we were asked to introduce ourselves and have a conversation. At the end of the exercise we were guided to close our eyes and remind ourselves of how we behaved in the exercise, did we open up and share or did we talk superficially.
Then we did "The Trust Exercise". This consists of milling around the room, looking people in the eyes for a minute and stating one of only three things.
1) I trust you.
2) I don't trust you.
3) I don't know if I trust you.
This goes on for ten or fifteen minutes. At the end we were again instructed to close our eyes and review what we did from the vantage point of being above the crowd. Let me point out that there is a lot of closed eye guided exercises in these courses. By closing your eyes and going within one usually enters an alpha or hypnotic state and is much more suggestible then normal.
These courses also use popular music to set the mood. After the trust process we were instructed to sit on the floor and we listened to Jackson Browne's "The Pretender".
THE PRETENDER
I'm going to rent myself a house
In the shade of the freeway
I'm going to pack my lunch in the morning
And go to work each day
And when the evening rolls around
I'll go on home and lay my body down
And when the morning light comes streaming in
I'll get up and do it again
Amen
Say it again
Amen
I want to know what became of the changes
We waited for love to bring
Were they only the fitful dreams
Of some greater awakening
I've been aware of the time going by
They say in the end it's the wink of an eye
And when the morning light comes streaming in
You'll get up and do it again
Amen
Caught between the longing for love
And the struggle for the legal tender
Where the sirens sing and the church bells ring
And the junk man pounds his fender
Where the veterans dream of the fight
Fast asleep at the traffic light
And the children solemnly wait
For the ice cream vendor
Out into the cool of the evening
Strolls the Pretender
He knows that all his hopes and dreams
Begin and end there
Ah the laughter of the lovers
As they run through the night
Leaving nothing for the others
But to choose off and fight
And tear at the world with all their might
While the ships bearing their dreams
Sail out of sight
I'm going to find myself a girl
Who can show me what laughter means
And we'll fill in the missing colors
In each other's paint-by-number dreams
And then we'll put our dark glasses on
And we'll make love until our strength is gone
And when the morning light comes streaming in
We'll get up and do it again
Get it up again
I'm going to be a happy idiot
And struggle for the legal tender
Where the ads take aim and lay their claim
To the heart and the soul of the spender
And believe in whatever may lie In those things that money can buy
Thought true love could have been a contender
Are you there?
Say a prayer for the Pretender
Who started out so young and strong
Only to surrender
(c) 1976 SWALLOW TURN MUSIC
(You can get the lyrics to damn near anything off the web :-)
During the song the trainer periodically lowers the volume and instructs people to focus on their inauthentic, pretending behaviors. The tone of the trainer's voice is negative and rebuking like we are worthless pitiful pretending creatures. "Are you there? Or are you just pretending."
In my conscious mind I am somewhat amused by all of this. In my subconscious I can feel awareness of all my senses increasing. One cannot resist the psychological opening that occurs in these courses.
After the exercises the group has to rearrange the chairs to the tape on the floor. The group is timed and encouraged to beat the previous time. This is just another way to get the group to respond to the trainer on demand. By this point nobody resists the trainer.
After this it is 1 AM and time to go home being reminded to be there the next night at 7. If people go to work the next day which I did, it makes for a night of very little sleep.
Continuation here...
http://www.culthelp.info/index.php?opti (http://www.culthelp.info/index.php?opti) ... &Itemid=12
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I wil pay someone to escort the who to a mental ward.
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I wil pay someone to escort the who to a mental ward.
Interesting how that works here. If we are talking about someone being escorted to a program it is referred to as Kidnapping. But when you are the one paying for the service you call it escorting........Same service company.... just a matter of perspective.
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I wil pay someone to escort the who to a mental ward.
Interesting how that works here. If we are talking about someone being escorted to a program it is referred to as Kidnapping. But when you are the one paying for the service you call it escorting........Same service company.... just a matter of perspective.
And your point?
You see, we at SIBS™ believe in what we're doing; we see entering the program as more of a privilege, not as a "kidnapping" as you so inelegantly put it... It's more like saving a LIFE!!!
Thank you, have a seat!
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I think it's because programs aren't really designed to improve behavior. Well, they sort of are, and sort of aren't. From the perspective of a parent, this might be what they assume. After all, they are told some form of this variant to assuage their fears of the obvious intrusion into person hood they find themselves ready to engage in. To be honest though I have no idea what future program parents think, and I never will. Some say wait, when your kids are teenagers and become crack whores you will empathize with our decisions. The problem with that though is simple. I have already been through the wringer and my judgment is very much dependent upon my experience and memories. I just can't forget it at will, or even pretend to. I can theorize what a parent might think, a truly ignorant parent whose knowledge of programs is little more than a brochure and phone call. But I will never really know.
Back to behavior and whether or not it is improved. Some might tour a program, say a parent, and be amazed at how well behaved the kids are. From this outside perspective it might be surprising that a group of the roughest teenagers you could find, are so quiet and cordial. The problem with this assumption is two fold. First, the kids are not bad or as bad as most make them out to be. Second, the well behaved group of kids is trained in the art of emotional assassination and physical pain. They know not to speak out of turn for those simple yet effective reasons.
So it really depends and goes back to intent. We must question if the parents wish to have a well behaved, rather, quiet and obedient child, knowing full well of the means used to reach such a conclusion. One might assume that those receiving tours of programs who are amazed at the appearance of order might ask how it is done. You might also assume that the parents might ask this same question, and if we are lucky some sort of government official might become curious and ask this question. For it is in this question wherein lies the secrets.
How do you get a kid who smoked pot a couple times to admit freely and publicly to being a full-on drug addict for life?
How do you get a kid to admit their darkest deepest secrets in front of a large group of strangers, secrets they know full well will be used to hurt them, yet still reveal what most would take to the grave?
How do you change a rebellious free spirit into a sycophantic, fearful automaton in just a few months?
How exactly are these things accomplished, one might assume someone would ask.
The answers to these questions are complicated, brutal and ugly. Behavior modification is a codeword, euphemism for abuse, plain and simple. The idea so goes if you make a child so uncomfortable, as in pushing them to their human breaking point until you hear snap, they will be forced to reevaluate their life, and the decisions which led them to this reprogramming in the first place. The problem is the instant and most obvious, and usually correct answer is what led them to this place is their parents ignorant, mean-spirited, or generally stupid decision to send them. They might answer they would be in high school right now like a normal teen if not for their unnecessary and grossly overbearing parental intervention. They would probably be right. The programs feels otherwise.
Fast forward a few months and now ask that same kid why they are at the program. Nine times out of ten, the answer might surprise you. They will make no mention of their parents, or bad decisions. They have now learned to take "responsibility" and "accountability" for their actions in a way that would make any paying parent proud. The burden lifted and replaced, absolved, forgiven and forgotten. At this point the parents don't ask why or how, they are just happy with their adolescent 2.0, reprogrammed to be the stepford parents dream child.
The problem is there is a bug in the software. It only seems to work when installed on program hardware. You take the immense fear, intimidation, snitches, controlled environment, fence, censorship, abuse, emotional turmoil, sickness, terrible living conditions, relentless brainwashing sessions, blackmail familial love, etc, away - well then there is a problem. Suddenly the program software doesn't work so well. At this point you might assume the parents ask why that is. Were we conned, duped, bamboozled in an elaborate, expensive, diabolical hoax? Is that why the program limited and censored our contact and only sent us quarterly pictures, like a child held for ransom? Could what my child is telling me be true? Did I really spend all of that money to subsidize the systematic, long-term, unforgettable emotional and physical abuse of my very own child?
I assume people ask these questions. In that sense I think I might be wrong though. These are questions coming from an insider, courtesy of a front row seat to the all inclusive, parental endorsed horror show. So to me the questions are obvious. To them, well, I really don't know.
:bump: up the thread.
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(A) the child into adolescence, is ready to portray themselves as an adult. Their thoughts and behavior, on the parents than the previous period even more difficult.
(B) parenting tips for young children
1. Parents can not force young children, adolescent children can not force parents; two sides can not force the other to do the other side do not want to do.
2. If the relationship between parent-child communication or poor, need to change the first parents; only when parents have a positive change, children will change.
(C) of the young parents to bring the biggest trouble is some of their bad behavior, the purpose of these actions can be summarized in six categories:
1. Attention:
Active - mischievous, playful, dressed bounds.
Negative - agreed not to do, ignore their fair share of the do.
2. The pursuit of power:
Active - resistance, disobedience, talk back, there is hostility.
Negative - stubborn resistance.
3. Retaliation:
Active - the parents intentionally do something sad, violent damage, rough.
Negative - something with the eyes of hatred treat people.
4. Consciously incompetent:
Active - do not keep regular, strong irritant to do something special, including the car, doing dangerous sports, drinking, drugs, sexual promiscuity.
Negative - give up easily, do not want to try, willing to backward, skip school or use other ways to escape, including drinking, taking drugs.
5. Performance superiority: the pursuit of the highest performance, highest honors; look down on parents and others; and others with a sense of superiority against.
6. Seek peer acceptance: spend a lot of time and effort to do all the things to strike a broad acceptance of their peers.