Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => Straight, Inc. and Derivatives => Topic started by: Woof-a-Doof on August 16, 2008, 05:51:55 PM
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Just now....the first 8 out of the first 9 posts are about AARC…I don’t have anything against AARC survivors. I don’t wish any heat with AARC survivors. I realize that the board is now titled “Straight Inc. and its Derivatives”. My question is; is there a board, other than yahoo, myspace… here on fornits that is totally devoted to Straight Inc Survivors?
To me, I understand the need to compare and discuss the various programs, their methodologies, their ideologies, the abuses, the time spent after the abuses…. But can’t Straight Inc. have it’s own board as we have had in the past that don’t involve CEDU, or AARC or another off shoot of Straight? It seemed to work before under the name, “Straight Survivors” (or something to that effect).
Perhaps I missed an announcement (I did check antigen’s Pssst it’s over here post…which was appreciated) Was there some reason why the Straight Inc. board was meshed with other organizations? Again, nothing against these good folk…and I don’t doubt a serious need for discourse about Straight Inc. and its derivatives. Does it have to consume digital real-estate once reserved for strictly (or seemingly so) Straight Survivors? Having mentioned real-estate….is it a financial issue that there can not be a board devoted to those of us that survived Straight Inc?
Again, I see the need for such comparisons between the two programs…and knowing the history of it all is in of itself notta bad thing. But is a dedicated space for Straight Inc Survivors to gather, really too much to ask?
I am grateful and oh so glad that this board has maintained thru its recent past…kudos to those that made it happen…I don’t wish to create heat or any negative kinda thing…Just a question, and (seemingly) small request.
Om Shanti
woof
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Just now....the first 8 out of the first 9 posts are about AARC…I don’t have anything against AARC survivors. I don’t wish any heat with AARC survivors. I realize that the board is now titled “Straight Inc. and its Derivatives”. My question is; is there a board, other than yahoo, myspace… here on fornits that is totally devoted to Straight Inc Survivors?
To me, I understand the need to compare and discuss the various programs, their methodologies, their ideologies, the abuses, the time spent after the abuses…. But can’t Straight Inc. have it’s own board as we have had in the past that don’t involve CEDU, or AARC or another off shoot of Straight? It seemed to work before under the name, “Straight Survivors” (or something to that effect).
Perhaps I missed an announcement (I did check antigen’s Pssst it’s over here post…which was appreciated) Was there some reason why the Straight Inc. board was meshed with other organizations? Again, nothing against these good folk…and I don’t doubt a serious need for discourse about Straight Inc. and its derivatives. Does it have to consume digital real-estate once reserved for strictly (or seemingly so) Straight Survivors? Having mentioned real-estate….is it a financial issue that there can not be a board devoted to those of us that survived Straight Inc?
Again, I see the need for such comparisons between the two programs…and knowing the history of it all is in of itself notta bad thing. But is a dedicated space for Straight Inc Survivors to gather, really too much to ask?
I am grateful and oh so glad that this board has maintained thru its recent past…kudos to those that made it happen…I don’t wish to create heat or any negative kinda thing…Just a question, and (seemingly) small request.
Om Shanti
woof
You can bump the threads back up that pertained to Straight. There was a guy on here ,Ajax13, who was starting a bunch of new threads in an attempt to bury some direct questions he didnt want to answer. so instead of answering them he would start a new thread in hopes the questions would go away. I think he has calmed down now, so the flooding may not be an issue anymore.
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Well Woof, all I can tell you now is to listen to Dylan's tune and ride out the approaching hurricane in stride. Stay dry as I leave you with the last verse, as I believe it sums up things pretty well:
"The line it is drawn
The curse it is cast
The slow one now
Will later be fast
As the present now
Will later be past
The order is
Rapidly fadin'.
And the first one now
Will later be last
For the times they are a-changin'.
Copyright ©1963; Bob Dylan
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You can bump the threads back up that pertained to Straight. There was a guy on here ,Ajax13, who was starting a bunch of new threads in an attempt to bury some direct questions he didnt want to answer. so instead of answering them he would start a new thread in hopes the questions would go away. I think he has calmed down now, so the flooding may not be an issue anymore.
LOL. You know you guys are getting worse than the scientologist OSA agents who stalk alt.religion.scientology. Good to see your cult is evolving.
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You can bump the threads back up that pertained to Straight. There was a guy on here ,Ajax13, who was starting a bunch of new threads in an attempt to bury some direct questions he didnt want to answer. so instead of answering them he would start a new thread in hopes the questions would go away. I think he has calmed down now, so the flooding may not be an issue anymore.
LOL. You know you guys are getting worse than the scientologist OSA agents who stalk alt.religion.scientology. Good to see your cult is evolving.
Hmmm...I don’t really know how to reply to that response "psy". And I see you are an "Administrator". Seeing your status, "Administrator" I was in hopes that you could more diretly answer my questions within this post. Rather, you make a snide remark about "scientologist OSA agents who stalk alt.religion.scientology". I sat quietly with a cuppa coffee and a cigar and thought about your response and what could have motivated you to reply in the manner inwhich you responded. I failed to understand your efforts, other than an opportunity to throw in a snide remark about our "cult evolving".
Is that to imply ever so delicately, non-the-less sarcastically.... that somehow a dedicated "Straight Inc." board is cult like, acting like a cult, or worse...is a cult? If it is true and that is the case, wouldn’t CEDU, AARC and Benchmark boards all be "cults". If is true (that our "cult is evolving") in our small microcosm then couldn’t the same thing be said about fornits as a whole, as a complete entity, that it also has many features, characteristics and mannerisms of a "cult"?
Perhaps I misread your post or misinterpreted your intentions (which I hope is the case) If that is the case, I am terribly sorry and I hope that you would elaborate further, with less sarcasm, so that I can fully understand your intent. You and I have had few direct interactions, so I am not sure how to take your reply. Because as I understand it now, we are being belittled because as teens we found ourselves in a "cult" environment...Now as fully grown adults, with thinking minds we are being further berated, because a suggestion was made and parallel was drawn to yet another "cult" we have found ourselves in...The mixed message, the seemingly passive/aggressive response you offered I took as offensive...which is odd to me, because of the little reading I have done of yours it is usually insightful, intelligent, fitting and appropriate. But I must admit, I am at a loss in interpreting this last reply of yours. So please elaborate further on how 'our cult is evolving' or explain to me if you responded to this post, late at night.... less aware of my own sincerity and perhaps prone to sarcasm.
As I had hoped to imply in at the start of this post, I wish no heat, no ill will, no disrespect. I certainly did not mean to insult anyone, nor did I plan on anyone else to be set up for insult. Just a simple inquiry as to the validity of having a dedicated space for Straight Survivors. As "Administrator" I guess I thought I could get a straightforward response from you, I was disappointed...but just to settle my own curiosity, please answer this...Were you incarcerated in Straight Inc.?
Sincerly, I wish much peace
woof
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That's not what psy meant at all; his post was in response to that other post.
I think this board is a case of something that was better off left alone; the merging of all the the different derivatives has watered it down to a drizzle of distasteful brown water, diluting the robust brew it once was....The Times They Are A-Changin', indeed....
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I think this board is a case of something that was better off left alone; the merging of all the the different derivatives has watered it down to a drizzle of distasteful brown water, diluting the robust brew it once was....
Now why can't I say something as simplistic as that, get my point across and be done with it. I admire those that can say so much with so few words...well done Froderick...BTW, have ya heard from RTP2003? He called from Jacksonville about week ten days ago and my fat fingers hit wrong key on the phone and deleted the message....I feel like sucha schmuck...If ya see/hear from him tell him I apoogize and would love to hear from him!!!!
Namaste
woof
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You can bump the threads back up that pertained to Straight. There was a guy on here ,Ajax13, who was starting a bunch of new threads in an attempt to bury some direct questions he didnt want to answer. so instead of answering them he would start a new thread in hopes the questions would go away. I think he has calmed down now, so the flooding may not be an issue anymore.
LOL. You know you guys are getting worse than the scientologist OSA agents who stalk alt.religion.scientology. Good to see your cult is evolving.
~snip misunderstanding~
I was responding to Ajax's stalker, not you . I was referring to AARC (Canadian Str8 clone) as a cult and the way they harass Ajax as similar behavior to the Scientologist OSA agents who stalk ex-scientologists and critics on alt.religion.scientology.
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~snip misunderstanding~
I was responding to Ajax's stalker, not you . I was referring to AARC (Canadian Str8 clone) as a cult and the way they harass Ajax as similar behavior to the Scientologist OSA agents who stalk ex-scientologists and critics on alt.religion.scientology.
Ahhhhh....I thought I had missed something. Thanks for the clarifacation :hug:
Namaste
woof
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I think this board is a case of something that was better off left alone; the merging of all the the different derivatives has watered it down to a drizzle of distasteful brown water, diluting the robust brew it once was....
Now why can't I say something as simplistic as that, get my point across and be done with it. I admire those that can say so much with so few words...well done Froderick...BTW, have ya heard from RTP2003? He called from Jacksonville about week ten days ago and my fat fingers hit wrong key on the phone and deleted the message....I feel like sucha schmuck...If ya see/hear from him tell him I apoogize and would love to hear from him!!!!
Namaste
woof
Thanks, I usually try to be succinct. RTP has been posting here, but the fact that you weren't aware of this perhaps illustrates what a damn hodge-podge this forum has become! :D
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Perhaps this senator had the right idea? Back in 1895? LOL...
A "HODGE-PODGE" COMPROMISE.; Resolution Introduced in the Senate by Mr. Manderson of Nebraska.
January 30, 1895, Wednesday
Page 2, 1401 words
Sorry folks, you'll have to archive the New York Times to get the article... I was just tryin to lighten the mood.
Gotta love this emoticon... eh frod? LOL... ::fullofshit::
RG
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I have no dog in this fight since I wasn't in either of these programs, but have been a long time admirer of the "I Just" thread. From this reader's perspective I think the forums should be separated as they were. The AARC forum has become a troll fest, burying all the straight topics...and that's just one reason.
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Sorry, but this thread is shit.
The reason the programs are put together in this way is so various sources of perversion can be combined and compared.
AARC is the Canadian Straight of RIGHT NOW, and "Doctor" Vause is the new Miller Newton.
And if it wasn't for the rampant trolling going on, where every other new thread is a baseless accusation against Ajax made by some dipshit cultist, you wouldn't give a shit.
You don't like it, get your asses up to Canuckistan and go picket.
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AARC is the Canadian Straight of RIGHT NOW, and "Doctor" Vause is the new Miller Newton.
Basically, this. Wasn't AARC once known as "KIDS of the Canadian West"?
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You are doing AARC a favor by integrating their message board because it makes them appear to be less of a worry than when they had an entire section dedicated to themselves. All programs are related to one another in some fashion, every single program on this forum is related some how.
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You are doing AARC a favor by integrating their message board because it makes them appear to be less of a worry than when they had an entire section dedicated to themselves.
Oh. I disagree. I think AARC isn't exactly fond of the new attention it's getting. It deserves it, though. Imagine what we could do in the states if Synanon never gained the influence it did in "treatment". Canada has that opportunity, right now. If AARC isn't stopped, it will breed, as has happened in the United States. Mark my words on that. AARC will start a sister program, and so on and so forth. Graduates will start their own clones, believing in their hearts that they have been given the one true gift of salvation from deadinsaneinjail. It's bad enough to have one country where things are widely acceptable such as incarceration without due process, forced cult derived "treatment" that really isnt, etc...
Anyway... It was Ginger's decision and there is really no way to switch it back at this point. I believe she asked around before she did it and the response was in support. Well. Forever hold your peace.
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You are doing AARC a favor by integrating their message board because it makes them appear to be less of a worry than when they had an entire section dedicated to themselves.
Oh. I disagree. I think AARC isn't exactly fond of the new attention it's getting. It deserves it, though. Imagine what we could do in the states if Synanon never gained the influence it did in "treatment". Canada has that opportunity, right now. If AARC isn't stopped, it will breed, as has happened in the United States. Mark my words on that. AARC will start a sister program, and so on and so forth. Graduates will start their own clones, believing in their hearts that they have been given the one true gift of salvation from deadinsaneinjail. It's bad enough to have one country where things are widely acceptable such as incarceration without due process, forced cult derived "treatment" that really isnt, etc...
http://fornits.com/SIBS (http://fornits.com/SIBS)
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I fail to see how they are doing AARC a favor by mixing it in with the threads regarding similar programs.
AARC threads are appropriately placed here being a supposed derivative of Straight etc. If they outnumber the Straight threads then the survivors should create more or post recent comments in existing Straight threads.
You can't blame the members and guests who post AARC related material in AARC related threads for burial of less active Straight threads.
I don't see how AARC could be more similiar to Straight, Kids, Pathways, etc., if it had be built from a patented "Straight -Do-It-Yourself-Rehab-Kit"
The fact that Ajax is directly mentioned as monopolizing the board and limiting access to Straight threads makes me somewhat suspicious myself considering the board actually mentions Straight. Those looking for Straight will find it.
I'm assuming other straight survivors would realize that straight related material could be accessed here. No? Those looking for AARC may not. If anything those seeking AARC info stand to LOSE by not seeing it directly in the title.
It is a possibility that whoever posted that would like to see the AARC threads less visible to the average viewer and possibly not linked to Straight & derivatives at all.
If the Straight survivor would like straight only threads here then he/she should create some or post in existing ones.
Post it - and they will read!
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The thing I think AARC fears is other straight survivors getting interested in AARC (as has happened with KHK/PFC). Wouldn't it be a tragedy if AARC suddenly started getting picketed. Straight is dead in name only. It's still very much alive and well operating under other names and ownership. Same shit, slightly different label. Well... Time to finish the job.
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The average distressed parent and the average corporate sponsor has zero knowledge of the controversy surrounding AARC and/or Kids, Straight, Seed, Synanon etc.
I'm sure the less publicity they receive the better..... Well for them.
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I ..........have been a long time admirer of the "I Just" thread.
You're welcome! The "I just" thread is more than a mere bulletin board where WEEDheads gather to boast about the consumption of drugs, it is a symbol of freedom and successful resistance to the brainwashing and DEADINSANEINJAIL dogma that was drilled into us by the cretinous criminals that operated Straight, Inc. The "I just" thread started as a mere troll, albeit a friendly one, and has evolved into a bit o' cyberia that serves as a beacon of hope, (as well as a bastion of defiance to program-types), inspiration, and freedom to all who participate, both directly by posting, and indirectly by reading, the celebration of the wisdom, liberty, and courage of those who defy the current powers that be that would intimidate and silence those of us who have befriended and benefitted from the beneficent WEED. Thank you for your continued support and appreciation of what is now a symbol of resistance to the evil, stupidity, and foolishness of the drug war and fucked-up brainwashing centers.
From this reader's perspective I think the forums should be separated as they were. The AARC forum has become a troll fest, burying all the straight topics...and that's just one reason.
I agree entirely. Give us back our goddamn Straight forum!
Again, this is not to dis those who were in a program other than Straight, hell, I understand and sympathize with those who have been affected by Straight spin-offs, but the merger of the fora has caused the dilution of all of them.....
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Well maybe each program or even each facility should have it's own sub-board under the general headline of Straight, Inc., and Derivatives.
Would it be difficult to implement?
I would actually love to see "AARC" on it's own as many people visiting here may not know to look under "Straight" for "AARC" or "CEDU" Or "insert youth facility here", but maybe a sub-boards is a good idea. They all really are the same. All it takes is one zealot running off and opening a new facility with the same shit, different name, and "slight modifications". Abuse is abuse, abuse in the name of treatment is still abuse.
*shrugs*
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I hate sub-boards. ::unhappy::
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Well maybe each program or even each facility should have it's own sub-board under the general headline of Straight, Inc., and Derivatives.
Would it be difficult to implement?
We had it that way but before, for various reasons that were debated (too spread out, confusing, not easily accessable, etc...), Ginger and I felt it was best to merge the subforums into the parent.. At this point, it's not really possible to undo it.
I would actually love to see "AARC" on it's own as many people visiting here may not know to look under "Straight" for "AARC" or "CEDU"
Well. Cedu isn't Straight derived so it doesn't belong here, but you're right about AARC. The forum description should probably be edited to include it.
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Benchmark is derived from CEDU, but it still has its own forum. Are all forums going to be combined like this from now on?
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Some programs are more closely related than others. I think of them as essentially a few branches of the same Synanon/LGAT family tree. Mel Wasserman's CEDU, Art Barker's Seed, Joe Ricci's Elan, David Wilkerson's Teen Challenge, Bill Meehan's Palmer Drug Rehabs and then there are the Rebecca/Roloff holy roller brands. When we pretend that they all have nothing to do with one another they have free reign to lobby and organize and it comes out looking something like this.
http://www.austinchronicle.com/gyrobase ... oid=627435 (http://www.austinchronicle.com/gyrobase/Issue/story?oid=627435)
And this
http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Story?id=2751785&page=1 (http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Story?id=2751785&page=1)
Your tax dollars at work, folks.
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Benchmark is derived from CEDU, but it still has its own forum.
Thanks for pointing that out. You're right. It should be merged.
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Want me to do this later tonight?
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That Florida boot camp death is dispicable.
Look at those guards. What wanna be - Navy Seal - inbred degenerates. Who signs up to be a teen prison guard?
And that fucking nurse with her hands on her hips. Big fat mouth breathing piece of crusty camel cornpie.
6 grown men to deal with a 14 year old?
- To protect and to serve?
- Hippocratic oath? My ass - nurse ratchet is more like it.
Guard: "We did not disregard the fact that he was in trouble as soon as it was recognized. We changed hats and went to a rescue mode,"
Rescue mode? Really? Clearly, you need to be rescued from yourself. Like every drone in your industry you bought the "tough love - boot camp" bullshit lock stock and barrel. Fuck, it probably gave you a big fat boner and a euphoric rush to be such a tough guy with a badge.
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Just now....the first 8 out of the first 9 posts are about AARC…I don’t have anything against AARC survivors. I don’t wish any heat with AARC survivors. I realize that the board is now titled “Straight Inc. and its Derivatives”. My question is; is there a board, other than yahoo, myspace… here on fornits that is totally devoted to Straight Inc Survivors?
To me, I understand the need to compare and discuss the various programs, their methodologies, their ideologies, the abuses, the time spent after the abuses…. But can’t Straight Inc. have it’s own board as we have had in the past that don’t involve CEDU, or AARC or another off shoot of Straight? It seemed to work before under the name, “Straight Survivors” (or something to that effect).
Perhaps I missed an announcement (I did check antigen’s Pssst it’s over here post…which was appreciated) Was there some reason why the Straight Inc. board was meshed with other organizations? Again, nothing against these good folk…and I don’t doubt a serious need for discourse about Straight Inc. and its derivatives. Does it have to consume digital real-estate once reserved for strictly (or seemingly so) Straight Survivors? Having mentioned real-estate….is it a financial issue that there can not be a board devoted to those of us that survived Straight Inc?
Again, I see the need for such comparisons between the two programs…and knowing the history of it all is in of itself notta bad thing. But is a dedicated space for Straight Inc Survivors to gather, really too much to ask?
I am grateful and oh so glad that this board has maintained thru its recent past…kudos to those that made it happen…I don’t wish to create heat or any negative kinda thing…Just a question, and (seemingly) small request.
Om Shanti
woof
Thank-you Woof, for expressing my very thoughts on this subject. $tr8t survivors should have their own forum.
I agree with Frod too when he says that the conversation was much richer(as pertains to $tr8 survivors) when it was simply a $tr8 forum.
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“You can't blame the members and guests who post AARC related material in AARC related threads for burial of less active Straight threads”
My wish is not to place blame any on anyone.
Regarding “less active” Straight threads. We all don’t have the pleasure to have immediate access to a computer. I run a business, 12+ hours a day, logistically and financially I haven’t the luxury to devote the time or thought required to compose as I once enjoyed. Posts that have depth and weight require time for thought, words chosen to convey a concept or a point that would understood by all who read it, take time and effort.
Some can plop a few words out on a keyboard, click post and be done with it. I am not one of those people. I do make an effort to use as few words as possible and the ones I write to have a much impact as possible.
I am similar in my lack of patience when I open a post, that doesn’t indicate in any way it is a “derivative” and has nothing to do with Straight Inc. at all. Again I have nothing against a “derivative”, no heat, no ill will, no worries. Just that it sucks wanting to go to a board for “Straight Inc.” and then hunt for threads because of “derivative” barrage of posts once I got to the site I still have listed as “Straight Survivors” as a favorite.
It is similar to finally being diagnosed with ADD…Another label, but at last it had a name and could be addressed. I was a member of the Straight Survivors board…silly as it sounds…I felt as if I belonged, I was something…a “survivor”… Now? Eh, yeah, went thru Straight Inc…oh by the way, here are the derivatives…it means less and less to me.
I don’t pretend to understand the complexities of the “behind the scenes” here at fornits, nor do I wish to know. Yet I find it odd that something like what is being discussed here is “not really possible to undo” and but later I read Benchmark and CEDU Boards can be merged. In fact “It should be merged” and apparently can be done rather quickly, presumably… easily.
Well, ‘powers that be’, will do what they will do, following the logic they follow. I guess I gotta remember it’s their sandbox and if I wanna play… gotta play by their rules.
Namaste
woof
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In fact “It should be merged” and apparently can be done rather quickly, presumably… easily.
Yes, but the un-merging is what is impossible.
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Well, I've found that by using enough duct tape and a sledgehammer, NOTHING is impossible!
HAHAHA :moon: damn, these emoticons are really funny sometimes :smashcomp:
FD
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Well, I've found that by using enough duct tape and a sledgehammer, NOTHING is impossible!
:D
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http://fornits.com/SIBS (http://fornits.com/SIBS)
:D :D :D
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“A Mom” said
“I’m assuming other straight survivors would realize that straight related material could be accessed here. No? Those looking for AARC may not. If anything those seeking AARC info stand to LOSE by not seeing it directly in the title.
It is a possibility that whoever posted that would like to see the AARC threads less visible to the average viewer and possibly not linked to Straight & derivatives at all.
If the Straight survivor would like straight only threads here then he/she should create some or post in existing ones.
Post it - and they will read!”
Interesting… Straight Inc. survivors will know to find Straight Inc related material here; after all it is in the title of the message board. It is also true that those looking for AARC may not. It is also true that other seeking AARC info stand to loose by not seeing it directly in the title.
Although the words are not the same, it would appear to me that “A Mom” and myself are in an agreement. AARC and Straight Inc. survivors both loose because of the hodgepodge we now find ourselves in with the blending of “Straight Inc and its Derivatives”.
“A Mom” said:
“If the Straight Inc. survivors would like only Straight threads here, then he/she should create some or post in existing ones”
Well, aside from the defiant tone, as I perceived the words. It does sound like a memo from the Dept. of the Obvious.
Perhaps it would serve us well to add a prefix to the title of a post: (Authored buy a Straight Inc. Survivor) or (Authored buy a AARC Survivor) or (Authored by a CEDU Survivor). It seems cumbersome for the author of a post…but is it any more of a pain in the ass to wait for a page to load, read half thru the post to find that it has nothing to do with Straight Inc. and involves no one a Straight Inc. Survivor is familiar with? Perhaps a small cutesy icon could be made to indicate where an author hails from. Just some way to indicate the mind set the author is coming from…a Straight Inc. perspective, a CEDU perspective or an AARC perspective.
It has been said in this thread…a discussion was brought up…a vote was held and changes were made. And that Un-doing changes was “not really possible”. Which I don’t doubt would be difficult and time consuming to do…”but not really possible”? The folks behind the scenes are no undoubtedly talented, dedicated and are passionate about this site, and I could not imagine a week goes by that they are feeling overwhelmed with one issue or another. I congratulate their efforts! They provide for all of us a tremendous service and I deeply appreciate all their efforts and the space they provide for us!
I just want a home on-line where I can be with folks that directly experienced what I went thru as a child. I am not discounting or trivializing any others experience. I am not denying the incarceration, coercion, abuse, and neglect that took place in other warehouses (under different names) and the horror endured by so many. A tremendous injustice devastated countless lives under the guise of “treatment”/”therapy” and my ultimate favorite…”out of love”
I am not an activist per se…I have attended protests. I have carried signs at protests, (still have one in the trunk of the car), I have handed out literature and I have told my experience to many people at tributes to Mel Sembler (held annually…really, how self centered does a guy got to be…. or is it to fund his wife’s pet project…the holocaust museum…the irony kills me)
Point being: Straight Inc. is my focus…gawd, it’s my experience, my history and much to my chagrin the epicenter of many of my own personal issues I employ to this date. I don’t write often, nor do I write without reason. I add my two cents when moved to do so. Same goes for posting a new thread, when compelled to do so I will set aside the time, gather my thoughts for a period of time…. an hour, a week, how ever long it takes to find the words to articulate or to convey an insight or to ask a question…. which is a bitch to ask when ya haven’t the words that really wraps around my questions.
I digress…
I consider this a moot thread. My mom used to say, “Ya can’t fight city hall”. I walk away from this thread not angry or with any animosity. I appreciate and respect all who responded and even more to those who read silently. I asked many questions and clearly got an answer. My one shock is the number of votes in the poll. The devil really is in the details!
In Peace
woof