Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Carey on July 22, 2003, 03:01:00 PM
-
The following statement can be found on the Coldwater movie website.
", the Fraidenburgh's decided to send Ryan to a "behavior modification" boarding school in Ensenada, Mexico. They had no clue of the impending hell that their 14-year-old son was about to endure.
Dragged from his bed early one morning, Ryan was handcuffed, put into leg irons, and tossed into an SUV bound for the California-Mexico border."
"The impending hell" started at home. Sounds to me like his parents put him through the hell themselves. They sent him in handcuffs and leg irons. How could they have no clue of what it would be like? They themselves paid to ship him off the way they did. Why did they think it would be any different when he got there.
[ This Message was edited by: Carey on 2003-07-22 12:14 ]
-
Something smells fishy here. Is this kid and his parents involved in any way in the making of this movie?
-
Sure they are - fiction based on a victim son's allegation. Maybe they would have been better off waiting until he reached 18 and could experience prison. ::puke::
-
Yes they are involved in the making of the movie. It says that he is a consultant on the film.
Listen to this:
"When Ryan's father was contacted by former "students," informing him of the conditions and treatment that existed in Ryan's so-called school, he was on the next plane to San Diego, then drove to Ensenada to get Ryan released. After a heated "negotiation" with school authorities and a $60,000 bribe, Ryan was allowed to leave with his father -- seeing the ocean for the first time since his arrival."
What is up with the $60,000.00 bribe? Who paid who? Did his dad have to bribe the school before they would release his son to him? I would not think so, unless they had sold him to the school in the first place, which is very unlikely.
Wasn't Ryan the boy who was in the NY Times article a couple of months ago? I even saw his post on the PURE, Inc. website for a while, however, it has now been removed. Doesn't it make you wonder? It does me.
The timing of all of this would have to make one wonder.
-
The previous post was mine. I do not know how it came to say anon. Anon must have been posting at the same time as me allowing both to post under the anon name.
I don't want anyone to think I am trying to hide behind an anonyomous post.
[ This Message was edited by: Carey on 2003-07-22 14:36 ]
-
[ This Message was edited by: Anon on 2003-11-16 09:08 ]
-
You know Karen, I feel for all of the kids who have been hurt by these programs. But this is a joke. All Ryan is doing is validating the beliefs of alot of people who think this is fiction. This movie is FICTION! It should not be portrayed that way.
Nothing about it makes sense. All it does is make one question the truth.
-
Coldwater is based on realistic events, and RYAN has gone through way to much for you to dis-credit that.
HE is the voice of so many kids that are locked up and being abused. Ryan is OUR LEADER and he has saved many many kids.
COLDWATER is exactly what this world needed.
Ryan is about getting the truth out to save kids, carey seems to be somewhat jelous of the attention.
-
carey last week you ranted & raved about removing ryan's post from pure's sight.
now you want to discredit him and his parents for what wwasps did to them? how do you know his story is not creditable? your story has already been told and heard as reported by your local newspaper and other articles. what's your point? everyone else should be able to claim their fame as well.
make up your mind. you are similar to a fish once it is caught, flip flopping around out of the water on the deck.
you are not the only person who has been defrauded by wwasps. best i can say is get in line with the rest of us.
you are making a fool of yourself and discrediting everyone else out on these forums.
wwasps will be the only benefator if you continue destroying all of the good that has been accomplished to this point.
back the hell off for a while. you need a break
-
Exactly how long was Ryan at Casa by the Sea? You know that in those early days everything seems like abuse, but it's really not. They just got their wings clipped and say anything to fly the coop. If you read stories from those that went the distance and graduated, actually graduated from what I read, they felt the same way in the beginning, but realized they are the ones that created their "hell." As for the restraints, it doesn't say if he was fighting or wanting to hurt somebody when the parents had him transported. Do most kids go willingly? It seems he was lucky not to be handcuffed, restrained and taken to a juvenile prison where anything can happen - mostly not good. From what I've seen Casa by the Sea charges about 2100.00 per month - so that doesn't add up to 60,000. Bribe? Yeh, right. If parents had custody, there was absolutley nothing stopping them from going and signing him out. Maybe the staff saw Ryan wasn't ready to come home and because they cared, tried to make them understand what Ryan was pulling. I've read enough articles, both pro and con to see the pattern of kids in the early stages saying what they know will get them taken home. I do hope he's learned his lessons and is successful now without having gone the distance.
-
Don't you wish I'd back off. No way! I did not back off on Dundee and I am not going to back off on this either. I think it stinks to high heaven. This is and was a set up and it is so very obvious. You people, the ones hiding behind the Anon, are destroying the work that has been done. You are promoting a FICTION movie. Maybe that is all it is to you. But its not to me.
-
Sorry about the ANON postings - isn't that what this forum promotes - anonymous postings? You did what you felt you needed to do to rescue your children, but why do feel you need to "save" kids in the other schools? What I see is there's kids being hurt by their parents not seeking help. When it's beyond the parents control, and believe me, it happens, then getting help is urgent. That PURE sight is scarey, not because of the WWASP stuff, but because they seem to be trying to get business by attacking them. What's that old saying..something like when you're at the top someone always wants to shoot you down. I just pray anotehr child doesn't die or runaway without drawing their own conclusions about what's real and what's fiction.
What's this stuff about attacking the Dundee's directors wife. If she had been a prostitute, then who better to support those girls that had sexual issues when they were admitted? She's been there (?) and made it out. So what if she has a huge diamond ring? I know plenty of wives with big diamonds and they are not bad people - No, I don't wear one! But it doesn't make me a good person because I don't. Look within y'all, I am.
-
[ This Message was edited by: Anon on 2003-11-16 09:09 ]
-
"You did what you felt you needed to do to rescue your children, but why do feel you need to "save" kids in the other schools?"
First of all, I don't feel the need to save kids in other schools. I feel the need to let other parents know that these places not "schools." These places are psych wards that allow uneducated and untrained people to play doctor on the minds of children.
-
Once again, the previous post is mine. It posted with the anon post again.
-
[ This Message was edited by: Anon on 2003-11-16 09:10 ]
-
Anon I wanted to address this:
"What's this stuff about attacking the Dundee's directors wife. If she had been a prostitute, then who better to support those girls that had sexual issues when they were admitted?"
When I first started trying to get information from Dundee I wanted information about the people who worked with my kids. Dundee would not furnish me with that information. Why? I beleive it was because of the kinds of people they employed. People just like Flori. People with shady a past. You may think she is ok. You may not mind her having "total" influence and control over your child but when it comes to my child, I do mind. The setting of Dundee and the characters who were in control were way to scary for me. So I guess my attacking her as you see it, is my way of telling others these are the kind of people who are responsible for your children.
-
This may address why the movie is classified Fiction. It appears the movie was in progress when Ryan became involved. It's not and never was intended to be specifically about "Ryan" and his experiences. He is a consultant.
I wish it were a documentary, but hey, its better than a sharp stick in the eye. A picture is worth a THOUSAND words. People are surprised and shocked when they learn what's happening in the industry. "Seeing" what happens has a much stronger impact.
Many true stories are classified fiction. Very frustrating but I think this has to do partly with legal considerations.
Deborah
http://www.coldwaterthemovie.com/ryan/index.html (http://www.coldwaterthemovie.com/ryan/index.html)
When Ryan discovered that a feature film was in development which dealt with the very subject matter that he had lived first hand, he was determined to become involved and help reveal the story of what really goes on behind the barbed wire. The producers of the fictional drama COLDWATER were thrilled to meet with Ryan, have been touched by his story and look forward to his involvement with the film, both behind-the-scenes as a consultant and have offered him a cameo role in the film itself. A documentary telling Ryan's story and that of other victims has already begun production and will be released as a special feature supplement on the COLDWATER Home Video / DVD release.
A message from the Filmaker at NoSpank
http://www.nospank.net/coldwtr.htm (http://www.nospank.net/coldwtr.htm)
COLDWATER: "Sometimes the Punishment Doesn't Fit the Crime."
Seventeen-year-old BRAD LUNDERS is sentenced to the remote juvenile detention camp COLDWATER RANCH where REHABILITATION consists of PHYSICAL and MENTAL torture.
Greetings,
My name is Sean Michael Beyer and I am filmmaker living in Los Angeles. I want to tell you about my next film which is set at a juvenile detention ranch. The film is titled COLDWATER and tells the harrowing story of a troubled teenage boy that is sent away to a "juvie" ranch for rehabilitation, only to experience first hand the torturous treatment and horrible conditions that exist in many of these facilities.
While our story is fictional, it is based on real events. Our aim is to reveal the truth about these awful camps and to create a film that will also be a memorial to the many kids that have needlessly died in them. We want our movie to be both compelling and authentic. And, as Steven Spielberg did with SCHINDLER'S LIST and SAVING PRIVATE RYAN, we will do our utmost to honor the dignity of the lost children and the pain of those who love and miss them.
COLDWATER will not be some watered-down "Hollywood" treatment. What unfolds is very realistic and, hopefully, somewhat disturbing. Yes, the movie is entertainment as are all dramas, but revealing the truth is clearly on our mind. Personally, I hope it will show parents and local governments what really goes on in some of these places.
We are producing this movie with a very modest budget and are very close to having the funds needed for production. Happily, those that have expressed interest truly appreciate a compelling story and agree that the tragic subject matter needs to be exposed. I am very excited by the overwhelmingly positive responses we are receiving. Several name actors have expressed interest. The momentum is building.
We would like to reach out to parents and family members of the children who have died in the name of "rehabilitation" and ask permission to list their loved-one's name and age. This brief dedication would appear at the end of the film just before cast and crew credits scroll. Be assured, we will absolutely honor the confidentiality of any and all respondents.
To learn a little more about COLDWATER, please visit our website http://www.coldwaterthemovie.com (http://www.coldwaterthemovie.com). Also, feel free to contact us with any questions you might have. Email us at http://www.coldwaterthemovie.com (http://www.coldwaterthemovie.com)
http://www.eyescreamfilms.com (http://www.eyescreamfilms.com)
******************************
And,
Loosely based on real-life events, COLDWATER takes you on a journey of emotions that will make you laugh, make you cry... And sure as hell make you think.
TOUGH LOVE? The Tragic Inspiration for Coldwater.
What REALLY goes on behind the barbed wire.
Real life juvenile detention center surviror, 16-year-old Ryan Fraidenburg will act as a consultant to the production.
The Boot Camp Boondoggle:
Torturing teenagers for fun and profit
This website is dedicated to documenting the horrific treatment of juveniles, a memoriam to those that have died, and the actions being taken to bring a stop to these places.
-
According to this information, Ryan is the lead plaintiff in a class-action lawsuit. A lawsuit that as it turns out, has yet to be filed in spite of all the promotional hype. Sure makes one wonder what's really going on behind the scenes and who the key players are in this fiasco.
Movie Synopis:
Now, 16, Ryan lives with his mother in Sacramento, California, works part-time as a mobile disc jockey, and is doing well in school. More importantly, Ryan has become an advocate for teens who have been subjected to the same horrific treatment he experienced -- informing parents of the conditions in these camps and schools. He is the lead plaintiff in a class-action lawsuit against the Utah-based organization that runs the school he attended and many others across the United States and internationally.
-
I believe the press was brought in to help to sell this movie.
First they decided to make a movie.
Then they picked the characters and the location.
Then they bring as much attention to the players and to the topic as they can.
I do not believe for one minute that everything happened just as they would like for everyone to believe it happened. There is way more to this story than mere coincedence. Why do you think that there are anon's out there who are so angry with me for bringing this thought out in the open. I have even been threatened by some who I beleive are involved.
You talk about sensationlism, this is it! Is it about facts or is it about fiction? What, if you can't make a case with facts then you make it with fiction? No wonder it is so hard to get others to believe.
[ This Message was edited by: Carey on 2003-07-22 19:38 ]
-
Carey, I would like to state my opinion about this fiction/real life thing. In order to have a movie that is not fiction, I believe ALL footage would have to take place inside one or more of these programs or camps. I think that any other form of filming would be considered fiction legally speaking. This film is based on a true story and actual events. I doubt if most people are too worried about fiction/non-fiction. When they hear about the movie, they will be interested in watching it. They will also be in shock when they leave the theater.
MG8 :smokin:
-
I, in some ways understand what you are trying to say and I respect your opinion. But so you will know, it is more than just the fact that the story is being told as though it were fiction. It is much, much more than that.
Don't you wonder how the press was turned on to this topic. Mere coincidence. I don't think so. I think that this movie was already in the works and the media was used to help to sell it.
These are my thoughts and opinions and I have reasons for believing this is what happened. Could I be wrong, maybe, but I don't think I am.
-
I have had limited contact with Ryan, thanking him for appearing in the NYTimes article. His personal response to me was surprisingly kind, adult, and grateful for my thanks. His spelling was atrocious, but, whatever. He is also quite religious...obviously comes from a religious family, which may have contributed to their exasperation with his "16-year-old-ism" (just a guess). If his personal experience can enhance a movie made for entertainment, I feel it cannot hurt the cause. To so many people who inquire about my grandaughter at Casa by the Sea, I usually say, "You know, the one in People magazine", since that is more effective to the majority of folks than "You know, the one on the front page of the New York Times". The Times and other intellectual avenues have their powerful place; the mass media such as People and a movie can also enlighten.
If it is fiction, so what? In this case, the truth is so much stranger than fiction that I find it hard to convince people of what I know is really happening. "Nahhh...that can't be". But see it as a movie, and lots of "less-intense" folks will remember and bad-mouth the situation. Can that be bad?
As for the class-action law suit, I don't believe Ryan is the principal (I know several others who are). The delay has been navigating the Mafia-like webs of ownership and responsibility of WWASP. The suit will file...trust me.
As for supporting WWASP and Flori Alvarado, this is such a stupid line of reasoning from our local WWASP pundit that I don't bother responding. Flori is evil, diamond ring or not. Why bother defending a minor player who is currently indictable in the country of her origin for cruelty, abuse, and torture? What does this supporter have to gain?
-
On 2003-07-22 20:08:00, Carey wrote:
"
Don't you wonder how the press was turned on to this topic. Mere coincidence. I don't think so. I think that this movie was already in the works and the media was used to help to sell it."
Carey, it's my understanding that this is a teeny, tiny, independent filmmaker. I don't know that they have the kind of sway you're talking about here.
The media have been sniffing around the edges on this for a very long time. Rocky Mountain News has been on it for ages. Every year for the past 30 or so, these places crank out a few thousand more people who get it. Every year, there are more stories here and there. This went stellar, I think, because the NYT covered it prominently. If the movie producers were able to pique the interest of the NYT editors or just one journalist, I don't see a problem with that.
When an innocent Californian millionaire gets killed by a drug squad
trying to seize his house with a bogus search warrant, people better ask themselves if they really want to turn their cops into money-makers.
--Vancouver Police Const. Gil Puder
-
Spots - I'm not defending anyone, just looking at what's here and in the newspaper,etc. and stating my view. I am an optimist, so that's where I come from. I cannot overlook the fact that there are thousands of families that have been helped by what WWASP offers. The few that haven't been helped also have my attention. I see allegations of abuse, however, it comes from ex-students who didn't graduate. I never hear these stories from graduates. That means a lot to me personally. Your grandaughter's parents are not concerned and unless you raised an idiot, they have her best interests at heart. No child ever died in one of their schools from abuse, that also means a lot to me.
Carey - everyone has a different view on who they are entrusting their kids to. My personal view is that someone who has made poor life choices and then changes has a lot to offer. I know many former drug addicts (if that's the correct term) who are now helping kids in my community. I know that's a good thing. If you are truly wanting to help from your own inside experience, great. If it's heresay from your kids, I'm withholding my judgment as I don't know them.
I've read the stories in the NY Times, People and other articles and would like to hear more from those that were helped - which is the majority of families.
I see all the views on the subject of boarding schools, not just WWASP, but they are the most visible and the most successful, so they are the easiest target.
I acknowledge all the views here. Everyone is entitled to make a movie - and I do agree with Carey about the intentions.
As for Dundee Ranch. The jury is still out and I'm not a judge.
-
Seems to me carey has a little to much time on her hands and is the only one posting comments that dont make sense. Ryan is doing good and us victims support him 100%. Ryan is a strong kid and his story is very creditable. Ryan is making a huge difference and the movie coldwater is something we have all been waiting for. Carey so what if he gets the spotlight, hes who deserves it and hes the one making the differnece!
Knowbody cares that your jelous and you realy are making a fool out of yourself by not supporting him and the rest of the victims.
Carey, you have made close to 100 posts now, get a life.
Your making a clown out of yourself on your own message board, know wondor Ryan is the leader and someone obvious is the follower.
Think about it, your negative comments arent helping save teens. The victims are exposing the truth while knowbody understands you.
Look at how much Ryan has done and look at what you have done, get real with yourself and realize Coldwater is a movie these teens need.
Theres thousands of victims out there, and your not even one of them. You have never experienced what these teens have and yet you dis-credit them?
As if its the kids fault he was abused?
You would have to support abuse if you didn't support Coldwater....
-
Seems to me carey has a little to much time on her hands and is the only one posting comments that dont make sense. Ryan is doing good and us victims support him 100%. Ryan is a strong kid and his story is very creditable. Ryan is making a huge difference and the movie coldwater is something we have all been waiting for. Carey so what if he gets the spotlight, hes who deserves it and hes the one making the differnece!
Knowbody cares that your jelous and you realy are making a fool out of yourself by not supporting him and the rest of the victims.
Carey, you have made close to 100 posts now, get a life.
Your making a clown out of yourself on your own message board, know wondor Ryan is the leader and someone obvious is the follower.
Think about it, your negative comments arent helping save teens. The victims are exposing the truth while knowbody understands you.
Look at how much Ryan has done and look at what you have done, get real with yourself and realize Coldwater is a movie these teens need.
Theres thousands of victims out there, and your not even one of them. You have never experienced what these teens have and yet you dis-credit them?
As if its the kids fault he was abused?
You would have to support abuse if you didn't support Coldwater
-
To the WWASP person who wonders why no graduates ever think was is abusive:
1) Some do. Look at the testimony in the Gini Farmer case. At least one of the kids was a graduate. There are also posts on this board which are negative from graduates.
2) You *cannot* graduate until you say WWASP was good for you and you deserved it. Kids aren't stupid-- they want to get out and will do what they have to do to get out. Once they get out, they want to stay out. So, why would it be surprising that they say what they are supposed to say if they have been terrorized and fear going back?
-
Wow, seems I have touched a nerve with Anon. He/she is attacking me personally. Why? Because I have expressed a genuine concern about a FICTIONAL move and how it will be percieved.
I have never attacked Ryan personally. I have only brought to the attention of others how I see that he, the movie and the media have come together at the time that they did. Personnally , I have lost faith in Ryan...but then I saw who he had been associated with in the past.
All I have done is to express my opinion.
Hey, my life is writing, your's anon must be reading. I guess I am someone who takes action while you are someone who sits on the wayside and merely complains about the actions that others take.
-
Yeeesh! Find a new hot topic already. This fight is war. Like any other war, you should all be guided by the maxim : "My enemy's enemy is my friend" So lets recognize that by rights, we are all friends.
Of course no one can make a "fact" based movie without an infinite amount legal releases and waivers allowing rights to use names, likenesses, accounts and depictions, etc. If someone is going to look bad -- factual though it may be-- you won't get a signed release, period. Without the legal releases, you can't marshall the capital to get the picture made; and if it is made, you can't get the distributors and operators to actually promote it and show it, for risk of litigation.
If a tree falls in the forest and no person is there to hear it, then the only remaining avenue to publicize the cause will be postings (like this one) on obscure internet bulletin boards. (Lets face it, reading about "trees falling in the forest" doesn't carry a fraction of the emotional impact of actually seeing, hearing and experiencing it)
Obviously, even a "fictionalized" account THAT ACTUALLY GETS SEEN will do more to raise mass consciousness of this issue than working in the background. The key to shutting down the behavior mod schools is to increase the level of public approbation -- if sending one's kid to such a place becomes seen as "child abuse by proxy" perhaps the supply of gullible parents will be curtailed. Choke off the supply of inmates and you choke off the supply of cash.
-
This sounds like the words of an attorney to me.
I believe right is right and wrong is wrong!
I believe fact is fact and fiction is fiction!
I do not believe that the end justifies the means!
The way this movie has come about, is wrong!!!
The movie was planned before the story on Ryan and Casa by the Sea broke!
-
On 2003-07-22 23:17:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I cannot overlook the fact that there are thousands of families that have been helped by what WWASP offers.
...
I never hear these stories from graduates. That means a lot to me personally. "
What do you hear from graduates? I've been hosting and posting to forums on abusive treatment for years now. In my experience, there's usually one or two graduates out of a few hundred who hang onto their cult status long after they've gotten over the threat of being sent back. For the most part, people who stay involved with these forums on some level for any amount of time are graduates. People who get out after a short time sometimes stop in, say hi, look for old friends, maybe tell their escape story then we don't hear from them again.
Where are all these successful graduates, anon????Do you have any basis for believing they exist, aside from Ken Kay's assurances that they do?
Antigen
-
[ This Message was edited by: KarenZ on 2003-10-17 09:18 ]
-
Carey, I don't understand exactly what you're upset about. Is it that someone might make money on the movie? (or might not, it's a very speculative business)
Is it that you only want media coverage if it's driven purely by altruism? I don't think it exists. Are you afraid it'll turn out to be a soft ball, fluff piece? Well, it might. We never know till we actually see it. But, based on the material I've seen so far, I just don't think that's the direction this project is taking.
And, FWIW, I hope they don't water down the cussing, the blood, the psychotic breaks or the jock itch. I hope they do an unflinching, no holds barred expose. I hope half the people walk out of the theatre shaking their heads saying "Man, what a load of crap! That can't happen." because I know there are some hundreds of thousands of us scattered around the country who can confirm from first-hand experience that it can and does happen every day.
Moreover, I hope they release it with a disclaimer like "Warning, this film may be triggering to certain individuals who have experienced large group behavior modification."
The internet interprets censorship as damage and routes around it.
--John Gilmour
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
American P.O.W. 10/80 - 10/82
Straight South (Sarasota, FL)
Anonymity Anonymous
-
"All I can think to say is, So What?!! What, about any of this, assuming its so, is wrong? You really are not making much sense with your arguments."
Karen you ask what is wrong with this. I am not surprised that this does not make any sense to you. The problem with this is that the pretense can be seen by outsiders as though everything happened in the way that it did in order to sell a movie. In a court of law it will lessen the creditiabilty of those invovled. I don't see how anyone invovled in this project will be able to tell his or her story in a court of law and be deemed creditable. Plus, I thinks it will hurt the creditabilty of those who are not invovled too.
[ This Message was edited by: Carey on 2003-07-23 08:54 ]
-
Your only giving them the attention, and thats the right thing to do because all the victims have good intensions.
Obviously you havent made much of a differnece even with the 104 posts you have made, and yet still your the only posting on your hehalf.
We are all very anxious to watch Coldwater, but your gonna have to wait just like all of us.
It's a good thing that they have a real-life surivor because that shows alot.
You say your a writer? Never would have guessed that, your 104 posts of writing makes you look like a fool.
Theres to many victims out there and your not one of them. Dont tell us statements if you havent been there.
We can all see its you who made the message board, get the kid a fan club if you wanna talk about him so much.
Of course you havent made a difference, because were the ones saving and your the one complaining.
-
"What do you hear from graduates? I've been hosting and posting to forums on abusive treatment for years now. In my experience, there's usually one or two graduates out of a few hundred who hang onto their cult status long after they've gotten over the threat of being sent back. For the most part, people who stay involved with these forums on some level for any amount of time are graduates. People who get out after a short time sometimes stop in, say hi, look for old friends, maybe tell their escape story then we don't hear from them again.
Where are all these successful graduates, anon????Do you have any basis for believing they exist, aside from Ken Kay's assurances that they do?
Antigen
"
Hi Antigen:
I'm not talking about graduates who hang on to being in a WWASP program. Most have moved beyond being involved in the program or support groups and don't talk about the past. It's who they are now and what they are doing with their lives. Ken Kay has no place in my observations, it's the grads and their families that have shown me the results. WWASP is not Straight or CEDU or Brown school, etc. The more I learn about the WWASP program through those that have been there, the more I agree with what they do. I don't have a kid in the program. I have been researching for my thesis...both sides. I have also registered for the Discovery seminar as non program people are welcome to attend and it seems very similar to another personal growth seminar I'm familiar with. Hopefully this movie will address the seminars.
-
I have been trying to talk to Tim with the NY TIMES. I am trying to find out how it was exactly that he decided to do a story on Casa By the Sea. He won't respond. Why? I don't know. When people are not willing to answer simple questions I begin to wonder, why?
-
I for one, find it hard to respect the opinion of Karen Z. who according to her website, is a self-proclaimed "professional parent". What kind of nonsense is this? Shame on Karen and her group of narrow-minded minions for using this forum to promote their own self-serving agenda and in the process, cast suspicion upon others whose opinion they do not like b/c it does not mirror their own
twisted version of the truth. God help us all to keep our moral compasses straight for the sake of the children and families caught in this web of deception.
http://www.strugglingteenhelp.com (http://www.strugglingteenhelp.com)
http://www.helpyourteens.com (http://www.helpyourteens.com)
http://www.parentdirector.com (http://www.parentdirector.com)
-
-
Carey, Your wrong. Realy though you are!
You have no idea of how much good Ryan has brought.
All of us victims already know he is the lead plaintiff in a class action law suit, his articles have gotton people out of these places.
Go ahead and make a clown out of yourself, people will be crying joy when they see Coldwater.
You dont have to put people down in order to feel good about yourself, Coldwater is going to save alot more kids then your hilarious comments.
Of course knowone is going to support you if you think you can justify or warrant abuse.
For all we know, your another one of wwwasps.
Its not okay to abuse kids carey, and come to think about it, if you realy didnt support Coldwater then you would be supporting abuse.
-
Hey Anon, calling someone a child abuser because they are not 100% convinced about the credibility of the people involved in making this movie is beyond stupid. Far better to maintain a "let's wait and see" mentality before jumping to any conclusions that may prove embarassingly wrong.
:rofl:
-
On 2003-07-23 11:34:00, Anonymous wrote:
" Antigen wrote:
Where are all these successful graduates, anon????Do you have any basis for believing they exist, aside from Ken Kay's assurances that they do?
Antigen
"
Hi Antigen:
I'm not talking about graduates who hang on to being in a WWASP program. Most have moved beyond being involved in the program or support groups and don't talk about the past. It's who they are now and what they are doing with their lives.
Ok, so who the hell are they and what are they doing with their lives? Simple question. You've as much as stated that you're willing to risk harm being done to your own child at your request and in exchange for your money because you're so certain that there are a significant number of WWASP graduates who are doing so well. So, where the hell are they? Who are they? How do you know they exist?
Ken Kay has no place in my observations, it's the grads and their families that have shown me the results. WWASP is not Straight or CEDU or Brown school, etc. The more I learn about the WWASP program through those that have been there, the more I agree with what they do.
Wait a second, I'm confused. Just a paragraph ago, you said that all these proud, successful WWASP graduates just had gone on with their lives and have betther things to do than to hang around WWASP. Now you're hobknobbing with them at your weekly TOUGHLOVE hategroup rallies? Which is it?
WWASP is so remarkably like Straight, CEDU, Synanon, The Seed, Elan, SAFE, Pathways, Kids, KHK is tends to blow people away when they find out this shit is still going on.
But don't take my word for it, here it is straight from a fairly prominent horses ass.
Letter from Wm. Cavey
The following is a letter that we recently received from a "Proud Parent of a Straight Graduate".
http://trebach.org/letters/cavey/ (http://trebach.org/letters/cavey/)
I have it on fairly good authority that, when he wrote this letter, he hadn't had significant contact with the Straight graduate of whom he's so proud or with his grandkids, for a number of years. That's extremely common in Program families; most especially when the parents remain actively involved in the Program long after the kid has either gone into hiding or grown up and excised their whack job parents from their lives.
I don't have a kid in the program. I have been researching for my thesis...both sides. I have also registered for the Discovery seminar as non program people are welcome to attend and it seems very similar to another personal growth seminar I'm familiar with.
Which one, Resource Realizations? Purification Run Down?
Hopefully this movie will address the seminars."
So then, you're of the opinion that Coldwater is going to be pro-program? Well, if you can get yourself to believe that no kid has ever died in a WWASP program and the world is peopled with grateful, successful graduates, then I suppose you can make yourself believe anything. We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately.
-- Ben Franklin At the signing of the Declaration of Independence, July 4, 1776.
-
"Of course knowone is going to support you if you think you can justify or warrant abuse.
For all we know, your another one of wwwasps.
Its not okay to abuse kids carey, and come to think about it, if you realy didnt support Coldwater then you would be supporting "
How has anything I have said imply that I condone abuse. Do you think that just because I do not agree with you and others that it means that I condone abuse. How STUPID can you be? My God, you are no different then they are with your "its my way or the highway" mentality. Ryan has the right to do what ever he wants the way he wants...but I don't have to agree with it. And just because I don't agree with it does not mean that I condone abuse.
I am not programed by you or WWASP. I will think independently whether you like it or not.
Quit feeling so threatned by my opinions. I am not asking you to take them as your own.
Grow up!
-
The previous post was mine.
-
Karen Z - OMG!! Are you another Sue Scheff?? She was on struggling teens and pretended to be several different people and was slamming WWASP programs!! All to make it look like she was "the good guy" and recommended only "safe" schools to parents of troubled teens. I found that SICK and TWISTED and now it looks like you are doing the same thing! OMG!!! :???:
-
Your only giving them the attention, and thats the right thing to do because all the victims have good intensions.
Obviously you havent made much of a differnece even with the 104 posts you have made, and yet still your the only posting on your hehalf.
We are all very anxious to watch Coldwater, but your gonna have to wait just like all of us.
It's a good thing that they have a real-life surivor because that shows alot.
You say your a writer? Never would have guessed that, your 107 posts of writing makes you look like a fool.
Theres to many victims out there and your not one of them. Dont tell us statements if you havent been there.
We can all see its you who made the message board, get the kid a fan club if you wanna talk about him so much.
Of course you havent made a difference, because were the ones saving and your the one complaining.
-
"Of course you havent made a difference, because were the ones saving and your the one complaining."
Let me ask you, who have you saved?
Dundee is closed which I am proud to say I had a part in. And you know what, I am not sure it would have had I not done what I did. I believe there were about 200 children there. Once again, who have you saved?
-
Hey, this forum is unmoderated, but is there any way we can divert this college-age, non-WWASP, thesis-writing, double-talking, friend-of-1000's of graduates, person off into a closet somewhere? She is bitchy enough to call lots of folks here stupid, abusers, blah-blah-blah, and yet cannot come up with anything more concrete for "her side" than the 1000's of satisfied WWASP graduates she is sure exists (or that she personally knows, or something), and the incredible success they have achieved that makes all the shit the others experienced worth it.
We were talking about a movie, for Christ sake. It may or may not harm the cause...we don't know...but each of us has valid reasons to worry about its impact. If it is a teeny little independent film (whose web site says they have major stars interested!), I'd be amazed if it even materializes. If you worry about this movie and believe it is the Axis of Evil...well, I have some waterfront property in Arizona for sale, or I have a unique educational opportunity to change and enhance your balky child's relationship with you for only $30K or $40K a year. Trust me.
Let's move on.
-
Isn't a thesis supposed to start out with an idea already in place and the thesis evolves in order to prove that theory? Exactly what are you starting with, and how hard are you looking to prove it?
Oh, BTW, be sure and use a computer with spell-check, dearie. You definitely need it (and I thought WWASP graduates were ill-educated).
-
Spots - Maybe I'm missing something here,but didn't think I was calling anyone stupid or an abuser. Objectivity, reading all sides is my purpose. Because I'm not in agreement with the abuse factor must mean I'm not real?? Maybe this isn't the thread to discuss this - it is about a movie.
Actually, so far the only person on this thread who seems to have inside hands on experience of any program (Straight) is Antigen. The rest are parents or relatives speaking for their kid in or out of a program. There may be former students here, so I apologize for not seeing you. I also know that adults pose as teens just to make it look credible.
I don't think this Teen Help Industry forum is as proactive as most of you would like it to be - too much judgment and attacking for those that don't share you're point of view -
Maybe I'll start a new thread to keep this out of the movie thread -
-
[ This Message was edited by: KarenZ on 2003-10-17 09:27 ]
-
>>I don't think this Teen Help Industry forum is as proactive as most of you would like it to be - too much judgment and attacking for those that don't share you're point of view -
Honey,
Keep researching your thesis.
Someday when you have a child or grandchild who is ripped from your life without notice or discussion, and you don't see or talk to them for a couple of years, and the few moments you do have are spent with them recanting the mind *ucking insanity they live day-to-day which you can do nothing about, THEN you might have a clue as to why some of us are judmental about the industry.
"Judgment" has gotten a bad rap. It's actually a good thing... the ability to discern right and wrong. By the way, many ex spouses incarcerate their child as revenge on the other parent. Lots of us were/are in that situation. You can't fathom what some of us have been through. Lively passionate debate and honesty (speaking YOUR truth) are good, even if tempers flare. ::bigmouth:: and somehow we'd hear it differently? Perhaps because you are "writing a thesis" your "credibility" might convince the lot of us to suddenly see the whole industry through different eyes? Or because you "say" you know graduates? And, we're still waiting for you to answer the questions posed to you... or DID you just drop in to plug WWASP and "judge" those of us who have a different opinion?
This board will be what it will be. If it served no other purpose than to provide a space for people to share their heart felt pain, their rage and anger, it will have been an invaluable service.
Deborah
-
Karen Z.
The strugglingteenhelp.com website is registered to Craig Rogers, owner/director of Abundant Life Academy, one of the programs recommended by the website you claim to be the "volunteer" director of. http://www.abundantlifeacademy.com (http://www.abundantlifeacademy.com)
Looking at the ALA website, under the links section, is a link to strugglingteenhelp.com.
Care to explain what's really going on here?
:flame:
-
I guess the only question here is who copied who or is this just a coincidence?
http://www.armsofassurance.com/new.php? ... 0Resources (http://www.armsofassurance.com/new.php?title=Parent%20Resources)
http://www.strugglingteenhelp.com (http://www.strugglingteenhelp.com)
click on school options
** Arms of Assurance is an educational consulting firm linked to the mytroubledteen.com website.
::bigmouth::
-
This is the page that I found most interesting.
http://www.strugglingteenhelp.com/index ... %20Schools (http://www.strugglingteenhelp.com/index2.php?title=Approved%20Schools)
List of Approved Schools
The following organizations represent our list of ?approved? schools that we have determined to be above reproach in regard to marketing and advertising practices. We use specific criteria to determine how a school or program can earn our ?approved? status. Below you will find the basic tenants of our approval process. Please note: The status of ?approved? schools is based on the integrity of their marketing practices. This list DOES NOT represent the quality of care, educational curriculum, or therapeutic services. We highly suggest that all parents searching for a school or program hire a professional educational consultant to assist in the research and admissions:
Integrity in Marketing & Advertising:
Does the school use referral agencies to attract and recruit new students?
Does the school accept student referrals from referral agencies who expect payment for the referral?
Does the school pay a commission or finder?s fee to referral agencies for student referrals?
Does the school pay former or current parents a finder?s fee for referring new students?
Does the school offer free tuition to parents who refer new students to the school or program?
Has the school created referral web sites to attract and gather student referrals? If so, does the website claim to be an independent referral service, or does it disclose the fact that the website is actually a lead generator for the specific school or group of schools (in other words, is the lead generating web site used to dupe or trick unsuspecting parents into believing that the referral agency?s web site is independent, representing only the best interest of the family when in fact, they only represent a certain school or program, getting paid for every family that enrolls their child).
Please note: It is of our opinion that any school that pays a referral source for a student referral is not practicing integrity unless they openly disclose this practice upfront. This practice not only lacks integrity, but it also dangerous and reckless. Additionally, any school or program that pays parents to recruit new students is not operating in acceptable levels of integrity, and is putting the referring parents into serious jeopardy; possibly opening them up to law suits and criminal prosecution. It is strongly suggested that parents searching the Internet for schools as the above questions to any referral source or school.
Approved List of Schools & Referral
The following schools have met the above described criteria. Please understand that this list is not complete. We intend to add schools continuously as our search for schools of integrity continues:
Abundant Life Academy
Carlbrook School
Positive Impact of Bahia de Kino
Academy at Swift River
***********************************************
Integrity in marketing is important... but for me personally, I'd rather see a list of programs that had passed the test for safety. Are there any other programs or assoc that have marketing practices similar to WWASP? Marketing is actually the least of my concerns. If there were such a place that genuinely treated teens with respect and provided them a truly safe place to reevaluate their situation, I wouldn't care if it were plastered all over the web, or paid for referrals.
There are LOTS of programs that may have "intergrity in marketing" but fly under the radar, avoid regs (for what that's worth), and have had allegations of abuse. Academy at Swift River being one.
This seems to imply that if a program has acceptable marketing practices, they can be trusted with your child. My experience with such a "respected" programs proves that to be Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.
Deborah
-
Karen,
I am only a nuisance to those with whom I disagree.
Oh, and by the way, Tim did respond.
Carey
-
[ This Message was edited by: KarenZ on 2003-10-17 09:32 ]
-
Karen you are so full of sh___!
I have talked to alot of people who run these programs. I don't trust any of them. Including Craig. They are all to eager to take on other peoples problems for a mighty high price. They are not doing it because they care...they are doing it for money. UNREGULATED!!!!!!
You talk about a fish flopping around, you go from claiming to know nothing about the programs,
"One of the reasons (the reason) I wouldn't want the job of an ed consultant, is how impossible it can be to have real knowledge of what goes on. I'm too afraid of the industry and how difficult it is to know whats going on from the outside. "
to offering advice on them,
"There are not many programs listed on the site, because I've stayed so busy with stuff like this, that I haven't called any of the thousands of programs asking about their referral policies - which I am supposed to do, and suggest adding them if they qualify according to the referral policies. Craig is the hub all the spokes connect to - but this is not a bad thing."
Oh, sounds like this is really a site that people should turn to, NOT!!!!!
You say it yourself, you are promoting something you know nothing about!
You are a part of the problem...not part of the solution!
The movie Coldwater is FICTION! If we need fiction to tell what is happening, it will shed doubt on the side of truth. It WILL hurt the court case. If you don't beleive me ask the attorney's invovled.
[ This Message was edited by: Carey on 2003-07-24 08:13 ]
[ This Message was edited by: Carey on 2003-07-24 08:15 ]
-
:eek: :eek: :eek: Abundant Life Academy--Phase 1 in Mexico? Now KarenZ, how could you promote that? Unbelievable.
-
Carey, why don't YOU ask the attorneys. I've met with them in person, so until you get the facts, YOU need to shut up. They are very much behind the attention it will give to the case.
You also keep omitting the fact that the producers of the "fictional" Coldwater, are ALSO producing a REAL LIFE documentary, telling not only Ryan's story but many many others. Totally NON-fiction, that will be included with the film's DVD release. Plus, the fact that the film, et al is being dedicated to all of the kids that have died, with a portion of profits going to legitimate charities, helping children and NOT putting them in camps.
I guess you just didn't want to mention that, so as to make your case against a fictional film seem more believable. Could it be you're upset cuz your boys aren't getting the spotlight anymore? Maybe if you'd played nice, they might've been a part of it too. (although I doubt you'd ever admit to that) It's okay, I know you'll be buying a ticket to the film when it's released, cuz the curiosity will be driving you crazy! (again, something you'll never admit to, but I'd love to see you incognito going to a screening!)
I may be "anonymous," but you know who this is. I just couldn't sit here any longer and let you spout off about things you know nothing about, and cleverly omit things that are relevant.
And I will close with this - Carey, lighten up! Enough kids have suffered and the marjority of us here are trying to do something good - stop spewing such negativity, you're really starting to sound pathetic.
-
Carey,
I have been reading your posts over the last few days with growing amazement. I have seen you attack, and viciously I might add, not only anyone with an opinion that differs from you-- but seemingly anyone who attempts to express ANY opinion at all.
You write off a careful, well-reasoned, thoughtful observation by saying the writer sounds "like a lawyer". This is not a bad thing when the subject under discussion is a legal issue. And the justification for your venom directed at those who are open enough to hope for a net gain in the crusade against BM facilities as a result of a "fictional" movie dealing with the subject? It would hurt courtroom credibility!!? Sorry, but you can't have it both ways. (Actually, I don't think you have made a case for it EITHER way...)
I feel sorry for you Carey. Everything must be either black or white-nothing in between- in that tight little insulated world in which you live.
But it offends me when you attack people such as Karen and others. It seems to me that she has made heroic effort to remove self-interest from her anti-WWASP efforts.
Lighten up with the "Ohmigod!!".
And by the way, what DID Tim Weiner have to say? My guess is you didn't reveal that because it didn't feed into your paranoid little fantasy.
-
Carey, how is it okay to beat kids? It's not okay! As a loving parent and mother of 2, I find it sick with what you have to say. Go express your support of abuse somewhere else.
Not even your own message board likes you, doesnt that tell you something...
It would make one wondor if you didn't support Coldwater, there bringing the subject out and look at what your doing.
Maybe you should think about a different career, because your writing isnt getting you anywhere and your only perfection is supporting abuse.
As if you realy make any sense?
Your not even able to live up to yout lies, you never answer the questions because you have none.
You sound like your maybe 9 years old, we all can see how many posts you have made, and we can also see its you who should join the circus.
Get a life clown
-
As evident by her own admission, Karen Z has a serious credibility problem. She also appears to be indifferent to the consequences of promoting a false sense of security about the safety and efficacy of the programs and schools listed on her website.
Second, there is a big difference between an explanation and an excuse. So far, Karen Z. has not come to the table with anything but one lame excuse after another.
::puke::
-
WOW, all of Sue's puppets are out in full force.
You guys, I am sorry that I am upsetting you so very much. I know why. Because you know that a FICTIONAL movie is just that, fiction. And yes, the producers can gather a lot of people together and have them make statements, which will help him to sell his movie, but then these people will be endorcing the fiction he has created. Oh well, another person, just like Sue, who will profit off of the pain of others.
Yes Sue, I know that was from you. I know because you are the one who has talked to the attorneys. I also know that you have upset them. I have a copy of the letter that went out.
I don't need others, especially those associated with Sue Scheff, to take on my views and opinions to make me feel they are justified and/or right. I know they are right, just like I knew Dundee was wrong.
Oh by the way, Anon said "Carey, how is it okay to beat kids? It's not okay! As a loving parent and mother of 2, I find it sick with what you have to say. Go express your support of abuse somewhere else. "
Can you show me where I said it was ok to beat kids? I see why you believe in FICTION you create it, make it up, then you believe it.
Show me where in one post I have condoned abuse. You think because I don't support your beleif in a fictional film...it means I support abuse? Come on, get a grip.
No wonder you believe and buy into this FICTIONAL film, you are making things up yourself.
Not believing in the film to you Anon, means I believe in abuse according to your statement. How ignorant can you be?
[ This Message was edited by: Carey on 2003-07-24 11:39 ]
[ This Message was edited by: Carey on 2003-07-24 11:47 ]
[ This Message was edited by: Carey on 2003-07-24 11:49 ]
[ This Message was edited by: Carey on 2003-07-24 11:57 ]
-
If you want any of us to take you seriously, learn to spell. Proper grammar might help too. (pupits, is spelled "puppets" - that's a freebe on me!) And you say you're a writer, HA!? At least you're not a school teacher.
And NO Carey, that wasn't Sue!
By the WAY, a documentary is a separate production all together. Which means, Coldwater will be a "movie" and the "documentary" will be something else. Not shown with the movie. It'll have testimony from those involved in the subject matter. It is non-fiction and will be produced with the utmost of integrity. HOW MANY TIMES MUST YOU BE TOLD THIS?
I just truly wonder why you think a fictional film is such a bad thing? The filmmakers are certainly not in support of the camps, they are against them and hope that after the film's release these camps will be closed. WHY CAN'T YOU GET THAT THROUGH YOUR THICK SKULL?
If after Coldwater's release, many camps were closed because of the added media attention, would you still say it's a bad thing? Answer that for me, will you?
On 2003-07-24 11:38:00, Carey wrote:
"WOW, all of Sue's pupits are out in full force.
You guys, I am sorry that I am upsetting you so very much. I know why. Because you know that a FICTIONAL movie is just that, fiction. And yes, the producers can gather a lot of people together and have them make statements, which will help him to sell his movie, but then these people will be endorcing the fiction he has created. Then the movie could be based on facts not fiction. Oh well, another person, just like Sue, who will profit off of the pain of others.
Yes Sue, I know that was from you. I know because you are the one who has talked to the attorneys. I also know that you have upset them. I have a copy of the letter that went out.
I don't need others, especially those associated with Sue Scheff, to take on my views and opinions to make me feel they are justified and/or right. I know they are right, just like I knew Dundee was wrong.
[ This Message was edited by: Carey on 2003-07-24 11:39 ]"
-
"Hey, my life is writing, your's anon must be reading. I guess I am someone who takes action while you are someone who sits on the wayside and merely complains about the actions that others take."
This was my quote on writing. I did not say I was a writer. It was in response to anon who made a comment about me "getting a life " and my "104 posts" on this site. Me the writer / Anon the reader. Do you get it now? I guess this person, Anaon, was feeling threatened by my opinion.
"If after Coldwater's release, many camps were closed because of the added media attention, would you still say it's a bad thing? Answer that for me, will you?
So you are saying you would give Coldwater the credit for the shutting down of these programs? I wouldn't. They are taking a ride on the same money train as Sue, Dundee and all others who are associated with this industy have. If programs get shut down it will be due to legal proceedings, not a fictional movie. All the movie will due is make it harder for those making the decision to determine fact from fiction. Those in the judicial system will be a little more weary about what they are being told in court by those who endorse this piece of fiction.
-
My anon 'friends'
I don't understand how you can say I have a credibility problem, when I am telling the truth.
Do you know what credibility means?
Someone had a question about the Mexican house ALA operates. I can promote it because I personally know the people involved, and how they came to open the house in Mexico.
Its a beautiful place, in a quite resort town on a huge and beautiful lake.
The kids actually do get to go out and socialize in the town. They actually do get to ride horses, and visit the beaches and go to movies. They actually do take part in public service work. Lately, its been planting trees.
ALA is not your typical program. Its operated family style - no restriction on phone use, or packages and letters. Family is welcome at any time - and I do mean welcome.
That is how/why I can gladly 'promote' them.
Carey, you write:
//Oh, sounds like this is really a site that people should turn to, NOT!!!!!//
Then by all means stay away from it. Quite logging onto the forum, and posting to this one and that one - Do you know Karen is doing this, or has posted that. . . If you don?t approve - stay away.
//You talk about a fish flopping around, you go from claiming to know nothing about the programs,//
That wasn?t me made the fish comment.
//You say it yourself, you are promoting something you know nothing about!//
I don?t promote what I don?t know about. I think I was clear on this point. I am very upfront with people about the dangers and that they need to use great caution. I'm very clear I can't personally speak about any program, other than WWASP, and ALA.
To all:
The STH site is not Mine. I don?t pay for it, or make money working with it. I don?t decide what is on the site, except for what I post on the Forum. I am pleased to be part of it - as I know the people involved, and I respect and trust them. Nothing I say on Fornits or elsewhere is in any way effected by the fact I watch over the STH forum. So, I don?t see how it effects the credibility of my statements.
I enjoy talking with people, I am a good listener, I do have quit a lot of personal experience getting help for troubled kids (far more that you would imagine) and I can often give some pretty sound advice as a result. Most of my experience has to do with families getting the services they need from hospitals, insurance companies, schools and states. This is often very helpful to parents who can?t even consider the kind of private paid programs we talk about here. With most of the people I spend time with, there is no money to be made for anybody. The programs I most often recommend? YMCA camps, and Outward bound.
I expect with the passing of time, the site will grow, and be more informative and list more options, and some will like it, and some won?t.
I am interested in input. I can make suggestions.
Once again, I ask folks to remember - I didn?t bring this up - and so please don?t try to accuse me of promoting ?my? web site.
Back to Cary for a moment:
You seem to think Craig a pirate for charging tuition. Its how he makes his living Carey. He dose this at great personal sacrifice, even if ALA does have tuition. He drives those boys all over the country - no exaggeration - to attend teen conferences and events - at no additional charge. Its just part of the program. He takes the kids snow boarding, skate boarding, camping, hiking threw some of the most beautiful places in the world - all at no additional cost. So please don?t be harping at me about how hes all about money. I happen to be someone who knows better. Furthermore, he is good at what he dose. He has a gift for working with teenage boys with addiction problems.
Carey - why are you so suspicious and paranoid of everybody?s motives? As a general rule, what one accuses others of, is what they themselves are guilty of. When you spend all this time and energy trying to point out all the flaws and inadequacies of others - the plots and schemes you believe them all planning - it makes me wonder whats in your own heart.
-
"Oh, sounds like this is really a site that people should turn to, NOT!!!"
Karen, I was refering to your site, not the Fornets site. :wstupid:
"Carey - why are you so suspicious and paranoid of everybody?s motives? As a general rule, what one accuses others of, is what they themselves are guilty of. When you spend all this time and energy trying to point out all the flaws and inadequacies of others - the plots and schemes you believe them all planning - it makes me wonder whats in your own heart."
I don't want you to have to wonder, Karen. I will tell you what is in my heart. THE TRUTH. Those of us who are fighting this fight for the children from truely a "pure" perspective will come out alright. Those of us who have not, will only have themselves to blame.
-
To Karen Z:
At the very least, don't you think you should disclose on the website you "manage" that the website is registered to the same person who owns Abundant Life Academy, one of the 4 programs recommended on this website?
As for whether you are paid or not paid for your services, it's clear you are in the business of referring prospective clients to someone who stands to profit from your recommendations.
:smokin:
-
I don't see what the BIG DEAL is in someone getting paid for doing what they love. Karen Z feels strongly about her involvement in this - give her a break! Carey feels strongly about wanting to shut down WWASP programs. Spots, even with her holier than thou persona, is dong what she thinks is right. If it is coming from a passion, let it go. In their view, they are doing what they feel is right for themselves.
If this forum was all about agreeing with each other, how boring it would be. Some people jump on the negative press bandwagon and say "hey look, "I'm right." Other's, like me, keep an open mind and go with what feels right.
No program is 100% perfect. No person is 100% perfect - I know I'm not and like someone said, if you find those negatives, then it is something within yourself that you need to take a look at. No one is wrong here. No one is right either. These are opinions expressed. PERIOD.
-
What can you say about someone who thinks of themselves as a professional parent? Not much -- which is why perhaps Karen Z. might want to think about posting on her own discussion board for a change.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
-
Anon wrote:
I don't see what the BIG DEAL is in someone getting paid for doing what they love. Karen Z feels strongly about her involvement in this - give her a break!
The point the other Anon was making is that it is widely held among opponents of the Industry that one who refers to programs should act independently. Meaning they aren't paid by the program or in this case, their website is not paid for by a program. I don't know how much this "really" matters in the end, OR how realistic it is to think that there is such a thing as an unbiased referral. But oh well, it's considered unethical.
I didn't check the validity of this but if it's accurate, I would have to agree that some disclaimer would be appropriate. If Karen is independent, wouldn't it make sense that the site would be registered to her, or rather the folks she works for?
It's one thing to share your experience with other parents, it's another to imply you make independent referals to better programs (those with better "marketing" schemes). Why doesn't ALA do it's own advertising? Why do they need Karen (or the others involved with the site)? Wouldn't it be enough for ALA to provide her testimonial at their site, rather than register (pay for?) a site where she/they claim to provide independent referals? And why would ALA pay for a site where other programs are listed? Do these programs have anything in common, other than the obvious of course? Many questions :???:
I'm sure there will be some logical explanation, we'll have to see how Karen weighs in on this and how the situation is handled.
Deborah
[ This Message was edited by: Deborah on 2003-07-26 16:59 ]
-
Deborah - you wrote: "But oh well, it's considered unethical." Maybe, maybe not. Depends on who's reading it.
What I consider unethical is claiming one program is safer or better than another. That is biased. Sue Scheff is completely in this category - unethical and biased. She too is a professional mom, no credentials other than her own experience, which is based on being told she could no longer refer parents to WWASP programs, so she is now a dirt digger to make herself look credible by referring parents to programs that will pay her a fee.
All provide a necessary service to parents, hopefully not to confuse them any further, but to provide options based on what they need. I don't even think educational consultants fit what parents need, especially the amount they charge the parents. I would much prefer to speak to a parent, teen, family, that has been where I am and to share their story. I, as an intelligent person, can make a decision based on if it feels right for my family.
I get that it's a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario.
Lighten up! Help is what's needed, not a bunch of character attacks - does nothing for me but make me feel "icky."
-
Damned if you do, damned if you don't?
If someone in the business of refering criticizes another for unethical marketing practices, shouldn't they hold themselves to a higher standard than the one they criticize? Given the discussion, there is some question re: ALA and Karen's integrity and the nature of their relationship. Personally, I'm waiting to hear Karen's response. Everyone does what they do because in their heart of hearts (in some cases, their twisted minds) they think it's right... even Hitler.
>>Lighten up! Help is what's needed, not a bunch of character attacks - does nothing for me but make me feel "icky."
Help is what's needed?
Character attacks?
Well pardon me, but your "icky" feelings are for you to deal with.... it's not my responsibility to cater to your distresses and misinterpretations. No one on this board is responsible for censoring themselves so you don't feel icky. I know it may be hard for you to discern this, but there is a difference between attacking one's character and questioning it. And ocassionally, an "attack" of one's character can be necessary and useful.
My persepective of course,
Deborah
-
I didn't intend to say anymore about this. I don't know what more I can say - But since Deborah is wanting to hear, I'll try and oblige.
Please understand - as far as the STH site is concerned - *I* do not make referrals. Ever.
*I* do not make referrals in the traditional sense of the word at all.
There are occasions, few and far between, when a parent calls me or writes as a result of something they've seen on the web that I wrote. Usually, but not always, as a result of the editorial I have up on Lon's site:
http://strugglingteens.com/news/lettert ... karen.html (http://strugglingteens.com/news/lettertoeditor/bennettkaren.html)
Usually, this gives me the chance to explain in some detail how evil I view 'the big one' to be, and why.
If they have a child in the program, and are considering a pull - I always stop there. All I say is that there are many other programs - and some of them very good, and others just as bad.
They at least know better now what to look out for.
Often times - the kid in question never needed anything remotely like what 'the program' is. In some cases, the parents actually thought it was a high class private boarding school - the kid was actually sent for a better education!
If they have not yet placed the kid, and are asking me for suggestions - I have suggested web sites belonging to ed consultants; *one* of which is STH. I do explain I moderate the forum (and point out it could be a handy place to go for certain kinds of additional info) but that the help request info page goes to a group of ed consultants, not me.
If they have a son, who will willingly attend, and they are a Christian family, I do tell them they might want to call ALA. I explain this is the only program other than WWASP I have any actual knowledge of, and if they ask questions that I can answer, I do.
I as of yet, have never gotten a call as a result of STH, nor even an email.
If I did, how would you all suggest I go about being fair and ethical? I'm willing to hear you out.
You all seem to think there needs to be a disclosure on the home page explaining the connection to ALA - Am I understanding this correctly? How would you word it - what do you think it needs to say, exactly?
As I have explained - I am not the one who decides what the site says (except for the forum) but I can make suggestions.
I would also suggest, if you can be respectful about it, you could make the suggestion yourself.
I also ask you to keep in mind, the site was/is built by a kid. I think he did a great job - but theres no getting around he is in a learning process. I would hope no one would want to discourage him.
From my perspective, this subject was brought up by someone in an attempt to discredit me before those with whom I wish to work toward the same general goal; And I think this was done, for the sole purpose of distracting folks from their own failing arguments in the subject of this link.
I perceive this as a desperate stab in the back by someone who was falling flat on their face in the mud; and I also feel this person knows full well the slur slung at me is undeserved.
I don't want to keep on and on about this, or anything related to it, on this forum, or any other. I am available for private conversation. Anyone who really wants to talk about any of this, give me a call, or write me.
-
Karen you made the following statement:
"From my perspective, this subject was brought up by someone in an attempt to discredit me before those with whom I wish to work toward the same general goal; And I think this was done, for the sole purpose of distracting folks from their own failing arguments in the subject of this link.
I perceive this as a desperate stab in the back by someone who was falling flat on their face in the mud; and I also feel this person knows full well the slur slung at me is undeserved"
My argument has not failed. I am not trying to convince you and your "buddies" I am seeking to reach those who still have open minds of thier own.
And by the way, if you go back and read on all of the topics,including this one, the mud slinging at you, has not been from me. But I will say this, quit recommending and being a part of something you yourself say you know nothing about. Why give your name for others to use when you yourself admit "I know nothing." (Your website that is...just want to be clear on that.)
-
Anonymous Says:
"No one is wrong here. No one is right either."
Hmmm, this sounds a lot like that tired old mantra "there is no right or wrong, just your experience".
Poppycock!
This is a discussion about REAL issues and LEGITMATE concerns.
If you can't see that, then there is definitly something WRONG with your values and beliefs.
::bwahaha2::
-
There IS right and wrong - My statement means that each person has their own view of what is right and what is wrong - to themselves. It doesn't mean it's right or wrong for me or anyone else reading it. I think dishonesty is wrong, however, there are others that don't think it is. I think that loving someone unconditionally is right, however, there are other's that don't - that's what's so great about being HUMAN - one's view is not another's.
If I say the color RED - I see a shade of red, you may see a different shade of red - get it???