Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Anonymous on February 24, 2008, 07:43:41 AM
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A week ago I posted a list of whatever I thought represented minimum standards for any facility that wanted to treat adolescents away from their homes for the variety of "conditions" that the tough love industry purportsto treat.
My post was as follows:
The difficulty with the who's generalities about the industry is that it ignores the awful pain and suffereng experienced by all of the adolescents that were horribly harmed over the years as the industry became more sophisticated and the families that were promised they would be helped and were actually ripped asunder by an industry that said it was about kids and families but was actually about money and junk science using kids as guinea pigs and the kids and families being hurt today in theindustry's most recent incarnation. If you and your industry are serious about doing what is right let's talk about some general rules based on the law and what we know and you seem to acknowledge about adolescent development and the lack of support for facilities that abuse kids and call the abuse- therapy.
Can we agree on these fundamental principles.
1) All facilities, however they describe themselves, will provide the minimum education required in the state in which each adolescent resided before arriving at the facility. The right and obligation of adolescents to an education will be acknowledged and not treated as a privilege which must be earned.
2) Facilities, whatever they call themselves, will not seek to have health insurance pay any portions of tuition in the absence of a report for a psychiatrist who is unaffiliated with the facility, that the child has an illness that is recognized in the DSM 4 and that the facility treats in a manner consistent with the standard of care for that illness.
3) efore using the word therapy to describe any of what they do the child who is to receive the therapy will be diagnosed with a condition or an illness and the facility will represent that the therapy is appropriate for the condition or illness.
4) No facility, however they describe themselves, will accept adolescents who are picked up by transport services in the middle of the night recognizing that the use of such services is destructive to the relationship between children and their parents and is an act of cowardice and immaturity on the part of the parents.
5) Recognizing that the relationship of children with their parents is important, no facility will accept a child whose parents are divorced where the placement will impact on the non custodial parents visitation rights without first being provided with a court order permitting the placement.
6) All facilities will include in their promotional material specific details on the educational levels and certifications of all employees providing professional services. The distinction between services being provided by licensed professional and services being provided by others will be made clear.
7) All facilities will make available information about the number of adolescents admitted to the program in the past five years and the number that successfully “graduated” from the program..
All facilities will make it clear that it does not approve or tolerate physical abuse of adolescents, the use of exercise as punishment, the withholding of food or sleep as therapy or punishment, and the humiliation of adolescents as therapy.
9) All facilities will permit adolescents regular and unmonitored contact with their parents after an initial blackout period not to exceed two weeks.
10) No adolescent will be admitted to a facility based on a diagnosis contained within the DSM 4 unless they have first been treated for the condition that the facility diagnosed on an out patient basis in the community in which they live and if the diagnosis includes a disorder premised on an inability to get along with their parents the family has had a course of family therapy with a licensed therapist.
I suspect this would not work for the industry because if they followed them an industry, based on junk science, would seek to exist. [/b] The post and what follows appears on page 2 of a topic called "struggling teens changes their tune"
The poster who calls himself who but appears to be a tout for the industry engaged me. He called most of the points "reasonable but when I asked which facilities followed them he refused to respond. Instead he manipulated and steered the conversation in a remarkably condescending way and then started a new thread here he could get a list that was more general on the board. So I asked him to describe the facilities that met his new list he still would not respond. Similarly he declined to provide any information that wilderness programs help with any illness in the dsm. I ended the conversation when who refused to play fair but said I would come back today of he was ready to engage in a serious way. Are you who or do you still want to quit?
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Nice points, but given the fact that a prison is a prison no matter how well intentioned I'd like to see something about due process and the right to appeal on this list.
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I totally agree, the right to due process(hmmm,theres some shaky ground) is not even recognised,so most programs engage in at best unlawful detention,or false arrest,I fail to believe that a "treatment agreement" is in any way binding,nor does it entitle a program,or facility to deprive a person of their liberty.
I dont understand either why a private entity,like an employer, can make drug testing mandatory. In my mind,that constitutes an illegal search, your person is being searched,no probable cause,no warrant,no due process.What legal genius thought this insult to civil liberty is a good idea?
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I dont understand either why a private entity,like an employer, can make drug testing mandatory. In my mind,that constitutes an illegal search, your person is being searched,no probable cause,no warrant,no due process.What legal genius thought this insult to civil liberty is a good idea?
When I've brought this up, I got the explanation that lawsuits were won against companies who had hired employees that fucked up on the job in a bad way and then tested positive for pot or whatever. So, thus started the trend: companies started deciding to shell out for drug tests to avoid these potential lawsuits. Of course, these drug testing companies must have had their sales pitches to scare companies into buying 'protection' against these types of lawsuits. (I'll bet some of these would make for some entertaining reading.) I don't like it any more than you do, believe me. This is just an attempt to answer your question....
Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual.
Experience hath shown, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny.
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Yup, that’s the trend… Lawyers and insurance companies are forcing this upon us. Some guy will come in stoned or drunk and screw up, loose an arm or put downers in the uppers bottle. Then proceed to blame the company for not making the work place safe enough, OSHA gets involved (as they should). So now everyone starts suing and the insurance companies have to start paying off. So they raise their premiums or force the companies to start drug testing the employees.
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The poster who calls himself who but appears to be a tout for the industry engaged me. He called most of the points "reasonable but when I asked which facilities followed them he refused to respond. Instead he manipulated and steered the conversation in a remarkably condescending way and then started a new thread here he could get a list that was more general on the board. So I asked him to describe the facilities that met his new list he still would not respond. Similarly he declined to provide any information that wilderness programs help with any illness in the dsm. I ended the conversation when who refused to play fair but said I would come back today of he was ready to engage in a serious way. Are you who or do you still want to quit?
I think you need to read further thru the thread where we agreed on some changes to the 10 points. It has been a week so you probably forgot on the reword, I moved the thread because I felt the conversation warranted a separate thread and your list was off topic there. For one person to make a list and expect the industry to meet them without review does not make any sense. First of all we need to separate out wilderness and TBS because they would have different requirements based on the differences in structure and define a list for each. Secondly, when we are done defining and agreeing on a list, how do you propose determining which schools or wilderness programs meet the list? We would need to attain a copy of each schools working procedures. This would be difficult to get.
To me the value of the list would be for prospective parents who could review it and then have that list of questions in hand when they speak to the school.
Lets review the list again in context of TBS’s first and reconsider the changes that I proposed last time and try to integrate them. I received some emails form parents who suggested some changes also.
I am happy to see you came back.... many were afraid you ran away for good.
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Dear Tout
I know what was in the thread. The key was your agreeing that my list was reasonable and then refusing to name schools that followed even a few of what was on the list. . If you want to make a list you can but if you want me to be part of it you have to act reasonably. Npw lets come back to where we left off. You know a lot about these facilities. You couldcome on this board and say there are good places for troubled adolescents. Here is what they are. Here is how they work. Here are their names. You have chosen not to do that. Instead you embrace the "industry." That includes the best and the worst.
So I ask you again. What is the basis for saying that wilderness is helpful for any diagnisis in the dsm? Simple question. HOw about a simple answer. Make it simple.
What facilties- just a few- how about one comply with the listthat you agreed to.
And while you are at it since I know that lanuage matters to you please explain why what you wrote as unmonitored phone calls initially you changed a few posts later to periodic "unmonitored" phone calls.
And when did it become a wish list. My list were minimum requirements- not a wish list at all.
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Why be rude? Why not Dear TheWho? Why do you set the tone of confrontation and then ask people to be reasonable and expect them to work with you? It shows your inexperience and immaturity with regard to discussions, but lets continue.
What is the basis for saying that wilderness is helpful for any diagnisis in the dsm?
I don’t recall saying that, MIS. I am not a professional in the field and would refer this to as therapist to answer.
What facilties- just a few- how about one comply with the listthat you agreed to.
I said your list was reasonable, but, needed honing, which we started until you had to go… here is a reminder:
“allright who. We really are moving along. I appreciate it.
We have two principles we can agree on
#1- there should be unaffiliated therapists providing therapy. The family should be involved in the therapy and the facility should be as close to the family's home as is reasonably possible.
#2 Unmonitored phone calls should be available to the adolescents…..”
http://fornits.com/smf/index.php?PHPSES ... #msg308733 (http://fornits.com/smf/index.php?PHPSESSID=k5ouptvs87aml0jr26tit2psc7&topic=25306.msg308733#msg308733)
And while you are at it since I know that lanuage matters to you please explain why what you wrote as unmonitored phone calls initially you changed a few posts later to periodic "unmonitored" phone calls.
Hmmm. I don’t recall my thinking there…. It seems I didn’t want to make the impression that kids could just call when ever they wanted or have access to the phone 24/7. So I feel the calls should be scheduled each week.
And when did it become a wish list. My list were minimum requirements- not a wish list at all.
Because requirements, to me, indicates that all parties have agreed to it or that they are defined by the state or local authorities. If I were to make a list of requirements I wouldn’t expect the schools to be on the same page as me, how could they? But from a parent/customer perspective we could create a list which would represent our “wishes”….. “Wish List”.
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Dear tout aka the who
My tone has not changed. I never believed we were working together towards anything. I believe your role here is dishonest because you are a tout here doing a job. I believed I would be able to demonstrate that and I have.
So here are my questions. They are fair and arise naturally from our back and forth.
What is the basis for saying that wilderness is helpful for any diagnosis in the dsm? Simple question. HOw about a simple answer? Make it simple.
What facilties- just a few- how about one- that complies with the list that you agreed to.
And while you are at it since I know that lanuage matters to you please explain why what you wrote as unmonitored phone calls initially you changed a few posts later to periodic "unmonitored" phone calls.?
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Dear tout aka the who
My tone has not changed. I never believed we were working together towards anything. I believe your role here is dishonest because you are a tout here doing a job. I believed I would be able to demonstrate that and I have.
So here are my questions. They are fair and arise naturally from our back and forth.
What is the basis for saying that wilderness is helpful for any diagnosis in the dsm? Simple question. HOw about a simple answer? Make it simple.
What facilties- just a few- how about one- that complies with the list that you agreed to.
And while you are at it since I know that lanuage matters to you please explain why what you wrote as unmonitored phone calls initially you changed a few posts later to periodic "unmonitored" phone calls.?
Read my last post
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I did and if you are referring to me to your explanation about the phone calls does that mean once a week? Why? How about calls to aunts, uncles, grand parents, favorite teachers And why did you put unmonitored in parentheses? Are you taking off the parentheses now?
And how about the other two questions that you refused to answer last week? You've had a week to come up with an answer-or two. It should not be hard at all.
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I did and if you are referring to me to your explanation about the phone calls does that mean once a week? Why? How about calls to aunts, uncles, grand parents, favorite teachers And why did you put unmonitored in parentheses? Are you taking off the parentheses now?
I think once a week is reasonable. If the child had a special Aunt or Uncle in their life then yes that should be considered too. But it should not be open ended. Sometimes the child’s problem could stem from a relative and they may need to be isolated from them.
I don’t see any significance in the parenthesis. If you feel better having them off then that is fine with me, either way.
And how about the other two questions that you refused to answer last week? You've had a week to come up with an answer-or two. It should not be hard at all.
I don’t recall saying I refused to answer any question. Seems your credibility is slipping quickly. You make accusations and then don’t back it up. Why don’t you find the post where I stated that I refused to answer your question and then we will continue. It won’t hurt you to do a little work yourself… just provide the link and we will take a look together.
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you are joking right?
I asked several questions last week and again this time.
They are straightforward
names of facilities that meet the items on your list?
efficacy of wilderness for dsm conditions?
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who, shut your trap... just shut your bloody trap.
the only reason treatment centers do not allow kids to call anyone other then their parents is so the child does not reveal the hell that truly is where they are being kept captive. The parents can be lied to and worked with seeing how most of the time it's the parents that do the sending. Once you add another person to the party it screws up the formula and thats what ruins the business. They then pass this practice off as "therapeutic" because of the slight possibility that some of the child's past acquaintances are negative influences but then they milk that and use it to bar out teachers, school counselors, grandparents, and anyone that would look outside the box and see that it was all a bunch of shit. I know this to be true because my Aunts were told I was at a boarding school by my mother who was told to tell them that by P.V .staff. The rules placed on kids are just a clever form of censoring what is going on. Notice why the only kids that can call by themselves are upper levels... those that have bought in to the program and will say what is on the script.
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you are joking right?
I asked several questions last week and again this time.
They are straightforward
names of facilities that meet the items on your list?
efficacy of wilderness for dsm conditions?
I addressed both of those questions, but you never responded. MIS, you need to read my posts if we are to have a conversation. You seem to be missing most of what I say. I have repeated my answers to you.... here one more time..... and also where is that post which states I refused to answer you? Have you found it yet?
What is the basis for saying that wilderness is helpful for any diagnisis in the dsm?
I don’t recall saying that, MIS. I am not a professional in the field and would refer this to as therapist to answer.
What facilties- just a few- how about one comply with the listthat you agreed to.
I said your list was reasonable, but, needed honing, which we started until you had to go… here is a reminder:
“allright who. We really are moving along. I appreciate it.
We have two principles we can agree on
#1- there should be unaffiliated therapists providing therapy. The family should be involved in the therapy and the facility should be as close to the family's home as is reasonably possible.
#2 Unmonitored phone calls should be available to the adolescents…..”
http://fornits.com/smf/index.php?PHPSES ... #msg308733 (http://fornits.com/smf/index.php?PHPSESSID=k5ouptvs87aml0jr26tit2psc7&topic=25306.msg308733#msg308733)
And while you are at it since I know that lanuage matters to you please explain why what you wrote as unmonitored phone calls initially you changed a few posts later to periodic "unmonitored" phone calls.
Hmmm. I don’t recall my thinking there…. It seems I didn’t want to make the impression that kids could just call when ever they wanted or have access to the phone 24/7. So I feel the calls should be scheduled each week.
And when did it become a wish list. My list were minimum requirements- not a wish list at all.
Because requirements, to me, indicates that all parties have agreed to it or that they are defined by the state or local authorities. If I were to make a list of requirements I wouldn’t expect the schools to be on the same page as me, how could they? But from a parent/customer perspective we could create a list which would represent our “wishes”….. “Wish List”.
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it's like piss in the wind with you
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.....and also, MIS, where is that post which states I refused to answer you? Have you found it yet?
Your credibility has faded quickly. I would like to get this list (of 10 items) nailed down ASAP. Dont quit on me!!
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I don't know about any posts where he accused you of stating to refuse to answer his question... but I do recall posts where you simply DON'T answer his questions, and thats something you have been doing for a while. Quit playing this game who it's getting really fucking old. You split hairs and I am beginning to feel my brain melting out the side of my head due to your stupid fucking games.
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I don't know about any posts where he accused you of stating to refuse to answer his question... but I do recall posts where you simply DON'T answer his questions, and thats something you have been doing for a while.
Here it is:
"And how about the other two questions that you refused to answer last week? You've had a week to come up with an answer-or two. It should not be hard at all."
http://fornits.com/smf/index.php?PHPSES ... #msg309384 (http://fornits.com/smf/index.php?PHPSESSID=3u9d2cfdh168l9llh5ke5omsr3&topic=25357.msg309384#msg309384)
Quit playing this game who it's getting really fucking old. You split hairs and I am beginning to feel my brain melting out the side of my head due to your stupid fucking games.
Look DYS, dont try to derail the thread again, it is MIS who is not following the discussion. I have addressed every issue. If you have been following along you know this already.
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“A Tout is”: a person who frequents heavily touristed areas and presents himself as a tour guide.
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who
against my better judgment I will do this with you one more time. After you put a few things on the list I thought it was time to test your sincerity so I asked you the following:
So here's my question who
Where are the studies, statistics, etc that support the notion that what you call wildeness therapy cures any dsm illness
What are the facilities that follow the list we made so far?.
I asked you those questions last week at the beginning of the "ideal tbs thread" after you switched from the "struggling teens has changed thread" because you did not like how it was going there. You refused to answer so I said I was done and said I would come back in a week and see if a week off would cause you to modify your behavior. It looks like it hasn't.
I am now giving you another chance to answer and you are playing games. That is ok. As I said at the beginning I do not get frustrated with you. I appreaciate who you are and that you have a job to do but if you will not play fair please stop wasting my time and yours.
And please don't think that questioning my credibility or what others say about me bothers me. As I told you last week I am not worried about any of that stuff. I don't care whether anyone on this site likes me. I am not looking for friends.
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Where are the studies, statistics, etc that support the notion that what you call wildeness therapy cures any dsm illness
I answered this question many times and I was clear. I am not a therapist nor a professional in the field and cannot provide you information on this. This is no game.
What are the facilities that follow the list we made so far?.
How could anyone answer this question without access to each schools procedures? I have asked you this before. Why would you think I would have this information? You are asking how each school files insurance claims, how long it takes for each child to call home for the first time. What system they use to accept children… there isn’t any one person who has all this information. I don’t have the procedure on even one school or wilderness.
Why is it that you think I have all this information?
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I am confused who. One of the items on the list is as follows: -"Unless the treatment is specifically approved by an outside therapist it must be evidence based and consistent with any applicable standard of care."
If you have no information that supports wilderness as a treatment then itis fair to assume that it is not evidence based or consistent with the stanbdard of care for anything and I must I assume you agree that no child should be sent to wilderness in the absence of a prescription from a licensed therapist in the place where the child originated. Am I right? Simple question! Can we get a simple answer.
In regard to the facilities that follow the points you have listed I simply do not believe you do not know enough. Your answer is simply preposterous. You obviously know a lot about a variety of places. If you could not answer this you would have no reason to be on this board. You do not have to provide them all- two or three will do!
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I am confused who. One of the items on the list is as follows: -"Unless the treatment is specifically approved by an outside therapist it must be evidence based and consistent with any applicable standard of care."
If you have no information that supports wilderness as a treatment then itis fair to assume that it is not evidence based or consistent with the stanbdard of care for anything and I must I assume you agree that no child should be sent to wilderness in the absence of a prescription from a licensed therapist in the place where the child originated. Am I right? Simple question! Can we get a simple answer.
No, I don’t agree at all. I don’t believe there needs to be a prescription written to send a child to Wilderness Camp. A medical release from the child’s pediatrician would offset any problems from a medical standpoint
In regard to the facilities that follow the points you have listed I simply do not believe you do not know enough. Your answer is simply preposterous. You obviously know a lot about a variety of places. If you could not answer this you would have no reason to be on this board. You do not have to provide them all- two or three will do!
Sorry, I don’t have access to any schools procedures. I think the best we can do is come up with a great list for parents to have (in hand) when they visit the schools. This would help them weed out the less desirable places.
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1) All facilities, however they describe themselves, will provide the minimum education required in the state in which each adolescent resided before arriving at the facility. The right and obligation of adolescents to an education will be acknowledged and not treated as a privilege which must be earned.
I believe, by law, the school needs to provide an education as dictated by the laws within the state the school exists.
2) Facilities, whatever they call themselves, will not seek to have health insurance pay any portions of tuition in the absence of a report for a psychiatrist who is unaffiliated with the facility, that the child has an illness that is recognized in the DSM 4 and that the facility treats in a manner consistent with the standard of care for that illness.
I think the health insurance companies have this covered, anyway.
3) efore using the word therapy to describe any of what they do the child who is to receive the therapy will be diagnosed with a condition or an illness and the facility will represent that the therapy is appropriate for the condition or illness.
Some children are not diagnosed with a condition. I believe we could reword this to include allowing the child to attend the school under the advisement of the child therapist.
4) No facility, however they describe themselves, will accept adolescents who are picked up by transport services in the middle of the night recognizing that the use of such services is destructive to the relationship between children and their parents and is an act of cowardice and immaturity on the part of the parents.
I believe we covered this and decided to scratch it.
5) Recognizing that the relationship of children with their parents is important, no facility will accept a child whose parents are divorced where the placement will impact on the non custodial parents visitation rights without first being provided with a court order permitting the placement.
If the parent has full custody then they should be allowed to place the child themselves, the court specifies this.
6) All facilities will include in their promotional material specific details on the educational levels and certifications of all employees providing professional services. The distinction between services being provided by licensed professional and services being provided by others will be made clear.
Sounds reasonable
7) All facilities will make available information about the number of adolescents admitted to the program in the past five years and the number that successfully “graduated” from the program..
I agree with this.
8) All facilities will make it clear that it does not approve or tolerate physical abuse of adolescents, the use of exercise as punishment, the withholding of food or sleep as therapy or punishment, and the humiliation of adolescents as therapy.
Absolutely agree
9) All facilities will permit adolescents regular and unmonitored contact with their parents after an initial blackout period not to exceed two weeks.
I agree with the exception that the initial block out period could account for enough time for the child to complete a wilderness program.
10) No adolescent will be admitted to a facility based on a diagnosis contained within the DSM 4 unless they have first been treated for the condition that the facility diagnosed on an out patient basis in the community in which they live and if the diagnosis includes a disorder premised on an inability to get along with their parents the family has had a course of family therapy with a licensed therapist.
Great idea, I will buy into this.
A couple areas which we need to cover are:
Some parents would like to see TBS’s without fences.
Some other parents mentioned that they would like to see evidence of background checks done on the employees. Not sure how this could be insured, but it is a good question and deserves consideration to be added to the list.
I would like to keep the list to 10 items so maybe we can combine some of the previous ones.
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who
now you are going back to my earlier list and providing different responses. Your new responses are completely inconsistent with what you said earlier- particularly your now claimning that kidsa are admitted without being diagnosed with dsm conditions. Then why are they there? And no I never would agree to sanction a facility that has kids brought by armed guards. There is no condition I know of for which the use of escorts as they exist and are marketed would not be contraindicated and no practice more likely to insure that the family will not reconcile.
Regarding wilderness- you are not that naive. Wilderness is marketed to frightened parents for a variety of dsm conditions? Aren't kids picked up by escort services and brought to wilderness who have been diagnosed with dsm conditions. Doesn't your industry claim to treat those conditions with wilderness? You can't reconcile that with the item on the list.
Regarding the identification of facilities your answer continues to be preposterous. BUt if you insist I suggest that you do some research and if you can't find facilities that observe them you spend your time on the industry board's trying to convince them that the standrads are good ones before you add to the list of requirements. HOw can you defend an industry without being able to identify the practices at any of them?
Your refusal to name the better facilities makes you a defender of the industry- an unregulated industry with no standards - and hence a tout for wwasp, sue scheff, the straight progeny and the Bundy's. That is why what you do here is so invidious.
Good night - who!
I have to go now. Let me know when - to use the vernacular- known to the straight victims--you are ready to get honest. Until then you will remain in the first phase
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now you are going back to my earlier list and providing different responses. Your new responses are completely inconsistent with what you said earlier- particularly your now claimning that kidsa are admitted without being diagnosed with dsm conditions.
Without going back to look at my previous responses, I believe I stated that as long as a therapist recommended the stay then it would be acceptable (TBS)
Then why are they there? And no I never would agree to sanction a facility that has kids brought by armed guards. There is no condition I know of for which the use of escorts as they exist and are marketed would not be contraindicated and no practice more likely to insure that the family will not reconcile.
I agree, if they are carrying weapons I wouldn’t want kids transported that way. Maybe we could rewrite the language.
Regarding wilderness- you are not that naive. Wilderness is marketed to frightened parents for a variety of dsm conditions? Aren't kids picked up by escort services and brought to wilderness who have been diagnosed with dsm conditions. Doesn't your industry claim to treat those conditions with wilderness? You can't reconcile that with the item on the list.
Good question, I am not sure of the diagnoses of kids in wilderness. I do know that many are under the care of a therapist.
Regarding the identification of facilities your answer continues to be preposterous. BUt if you insist I suggest that you do some research and if you can't find facilities that observe them you spend your time on the industry board's trying to convince them that the standrads are good ones before you add to the list of requirements. HOw can you defend an industry without being able to identify the practices at any of them?
How can you be against the entire industry without knowing the details of every program? I think our answers are the same, we look at the results of what the industry has produced. If I based my opinion on the what is written here on fornits I would probably agree with your assumptions. But I have seen the many kids who have benefited from TBS and wilderness so my conclusions are different than yours.
Your refusal to name the better facilities makes you a defender of the industry- an unregulated industry with no standards - and hence a tout for wwasp, sue scheff, the straight progeny and the Bundy's. That is why what you do here is so invidious.
Ha,Ha,Ha, you really like to heap it on.. you still have not been listening. I don’t possess the list that you want. As you gain more knowledge in the area of TBS and wilderness (and life in general) you will see that they all don’t fit a list of 10 items written by a random individual (no industry does). There are millions of people in the world and if every company tried to meet the needs of everyone they would all fail. No one has the magic answers that you want but it is good that you keep asking them, there is nothing wrong with that MIS.
Some schools may feel 1 week is long enough before a child calls home, others may feel 2,3,4 weeks is acceptable. You happen to have the opinion that 2 weeks is the limit and that is okay, but not everyone is going to agree with you and it doesn’t make them evil because they don’t and we cant expect them to change because you say so….. do you see what I am getting at? You don’t seem like a bad person but just a little naive on how businesses function. If you thought cars should have 10 airbags in them and they presently have 7 then it doesn’t make the whole industry evil. They based their decision on other factors, that’s all, you shouldn’t take it personally.
Good night - who!
I have to go now. Let me know when - to use the vernacular- known to the straight victims--you are ready to get honest. Until then you will remain in the first phase
I have been honest from the beginning, but I know that is hard for you to believe.
Have a good night, MIS
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sorry, had to head out to long beach to run an errand.
I am SOOO fucking sorry who that I lack the desire to sift through your bullshit due to the fact there is so much of it. See, the fact is it's gotten to the point where I don't have the need anymore to read anything you say because I know your going to talk out of your ass... I just see the name "Who" and I know it's cram filled with self righteousness and bullshit and made up realities you tell yourself to convince yourself you have a daughter.
"I have been honest from the beginning, but I know that is hard for you to believe.
Have a good night, MIS"
You... honest?
I'd trust a meth fiend with a brand new bicycle before I trusted you with ANYTHING revolving around honesty.
"your credibility has faded quickly"
Thats rich coming from somebody who lies about having a daughter mixed with the fact that NO ONE HERE LIKES NOR BELIEVES YOU
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sorry, had to head out to long beach to run an errand.
I am SOOO fucking sorry who that I lack the desire to sift through your bullshit due to the fact there is so much of it. See, the fact is it's gotten to the point where I don't have the need anymore to read anything you say because I know your going to talk out of your ass... I just see the name "Who" and I know it's cram filled with self righteousness and bullshit and made up realities you tell yourself to convince yourself you have a daughter.
"I have been honest from the beginning, but I know that is hard for you to believe.
Have a good night, MIS"
You... honest?
I'd trust a meth fiend with a brand new bicycle before I trusted you with ANYTHING revolving around honesty.
See that is the difference between you and me. You are apparently still young and focus on the small picture and everything revolves around yourself. But as you get older you start to see that what you do effects other people. Lending a person who is hooked on meth your brand new bike doesnt make you a good guy... if you were a decent person you would try to get the meth person some help.
You are probably a good person DYS, but you lack credibility in that you try to hard to discredit people because you disagree with them which forces yourself to be dishonest in so many areas. This is why I am a little wary about your stories of being in a program. Dont take it personally but I just dont believe anything you say.
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"Lending a person who is hooked on meth your brand new bike doesnt make you a good guy... if you were a decent person you would try to get the meth person some help."
Wow, you have PROVEN my point of your arrogance and stupidity. I was not making that reference in terms of "helping him"
I was making it because tweakers are the biggest thieves and liars on the planet... they will steal from you and help you look for what they stole and one of thoes items meth heads love are bikes... I myself as a former tweaker use to carry around bolt cutters and steal bikes all the damn time. I was using it as an ANALOGY to explain how little I trusted you And you (as usual) went and tried to turn it in to a fucking do gooder contest.
Dude, that last bit you wrote.... WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?
Is everything that comes from you just an attack on someone pointing out what YOU yourself do?
Do you have some rare disease where every problem in your life you pretend someone who hates your guts has instead? Really I want to know. Maybe we can get you some medication for that.... Maybe a treatment center could help too.. I say at least 2 years would do you some good.
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I just see the name "Who" and I know it's cram filled with self righteousness and bullshit and made up realities you tell yourself to convince yourself you have a daughter
:o :o :o :o
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A week ago I posted a list of whatever I thought represented minimum standards for any facility that wanted to treat adolescents away from their homes for the variety of "conditions" that the tough love industry purportsto treat.
My post was as follows:
The difficulty with the who's generalities about the industry is that it ignores the awful pain and suffereng experienced by all of the adolescents that were horribly harmed over the years as the industry became more sophisticated and the families that were promised they would be helped and were actually ripped asunder by an industry that said it was about kids and families but was actually about money and junk science using kids as guinea pigs and the kids and families being hurt today in theindustry's most recent incarnation. If you and your industry are serious about doing what is right let's talk about some general rules based on the law and what we know and you seem to acknowledge about adolescent development and the lack of support for facilities that abuse kids and call the abuse- therapy.
Can we agree on these fundamental principles.
1) All facilities, however they describe themselves, will provide the minimum education required in the state in which each adolescent resided before arriving at the facility. The right and obligation of adolescents to an education will be acknowledged and not treated as a privilege which must be earned.
2) Facilities, whatever they call themselves, will not seek to have health insurance pay any portions of tuition in the absence of a report for a psychiatrist who is unaffiliated with the facility, that the child has an illness that is recognized in the DSM 4 and that the facility treats in a manner consistent with the standard of care for that illness.
3) efore using the word therapy to describe any of what they do the child who is to receive the therapy will be diagnosed with a condition or an illness and the facility will represent that the therapy is appropriate for the condition or illness.
4) No facility, however they describe themselves, will accept adolescents who are picked up by transport services in the middle of the night recognizing that the use of such services is destructive to the relationship between children and their parents and is an act of cowardice and immaturity on the part of the parents.
5) Recognizing that the relationship of children with their parents is important, no facility will accept a child whose parents are divorced where the placement will impact on the non custodial parents visitation rights without first being provided with a court order permitting the placement.
6) All facilities will include in their promotional material specific details on the educational levels and certifications of all employees providing professional services. The distinction between services being provided by licensed professional and services being provided by others will be made clear.
7) All facilities will make available information about the number of adolescents admitted to the program in the past five years and the number that successfully “graduated” from the program..
All facilities will make it clear that it does not approve or tolerate physical abuse of adolescents, the use of exercise as punishment, the withholding of food or sleep as therapy or punishment, and the humiliation of adolescents as therapy.
9) All facilities will permit adolescents regular and unmonitored contact with their parents after an initial blackout period not to exceed two weeks.
10) No adolescent will be admitted to a facility based on a diagnosis contained within the DSM 4 unless they have first been treated for the condition that the facility diagnosed on an out patient basis in the community in which they live and if the diagnosis includes a disorder premised on an inability to get along with their parents the family has had a course of family therapy with a licensed therapist.
I suspect this would not work for the industry because if they followed them an industry, based on junk science, would seek to exist. [/b] The post and what follows appears on page 2 of a topic called "struggling teens changes their tune"
The poster who calls himself who but appears to be a tout for the industry engaged me. He called most of the points "reasonable but when I asked which facilities followed them he refused to respond. Instead he manipulated and steered the conversation in a remarkably condescending way and then started a new thread here he could get a list that was more general on the board. So I asked him to describe the facilities that met his new list he still would not respond. Similarly he declined to provide any information that wilderness programs help with any illness in the dsm. I ended the conversation when who refused to play fair but said I would come back today of he was ready to engage in a serious way. Are you who or do you still want to quit?
I haven't read this yet, but thought I'd bump it to keep the thread going..
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I just see the name "Who" and I know it's cram filled with self righteousness and bullshit and made up realities you tell yourself to convince yourself you have a daughter
:o :o :o :o
ok... and? You DON'T have a daughter... and if you do have one then bring her in her and let her parade around these treatment centers for herself.
See you don't get it. No one wants to hear how YOU think it helped your kid... It only matters if SHE thinks it helped... which means she either does not exist at all or she hates you for sending her and the program tore you two apart... Go ahead and pick one because either way it defeats your cause and either way proves you are a fucking liar.
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Quote from: TheWho?(http://http://www.my-rummy.com/images/flashingarrowright.gif)
:o :o :o :o
ok... and? You DON'T have a daughter... and if you do have one then bring her in her and let her parade around these treatment centers for herself.
See you don't get it. No one wants to hear how YOU think it helped your kid... It only matters if SHE thinks it helped... which means she either does not exist at all or she hates you for sending her and the program tore you two apart... Go ahead and pick one because either way it defeats your cause and either way proves you are a fucking liar.
Who me?
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sorry.. in a fit of typing rage I completely missed the question mark.
My statement however STILL applies to the real who.
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The Who got PWNED again. Even harder this time. Nice work MIS!!!!!
The whole point that this makes is that none of these places would exist if they had to follow this cursory list of what amounts to basic human rights. That's why no one can name a 'safe' or 'effective' facility. They know the second they do, we'd be able to debunk it by comparing it to this list.
A week ago I posted a list of whatever I thought represented minimum standards for any facility that wanted to treat adolescents away from their homes for the variety of "conditions" that the tough love industry purportsto treat.
My post was as follows:
The difficulty with the who's generalities about the industry is that it ignores the awful pain and suffereng experienced by all of the adolescents that were horribly harmed over the years as the industry became more sophisticated and the families that were promised they would be helped and were actually ripped asunder by an industry that said it was about kids and families but was actually about money and junk science using kids as guinea pigs and the kids and families being hurt today in theindustry's most recent incarnation. If you and your industry are serious about doing what is right let's talk about some general rules based on the law and what we know and you seem to acknowledge about adolescent development and the lack of support for facilities that abuse kids and call the abuse- therapy.
Can we agree on these fundamental principles.
1) All facilities, however they describe themselves, will provide the minimum education required in the state in which each adolescent resided before arriving at the facility. The right and obligation of adolescents to an education will be acknowledged and not treated as a privilege which must be earned.
2) Facilities, whatever they call themselves, will not seek to have health insurance pay any portions of tuition in the absence of a report for a psychiatrist who is unaffiliated with the facility, that the child has an illness that is recognized in the DSM 4 and that the facility treats in a manner consistent with the standard of care for that illness.
3) efore using the word therapy to describe any of what they do the child who is to receive the therapy will be diagnosed with a condition or an illness and the facility will represent that the therapy is appropriate for the condition or illness.
4) No facility, however they describe themselves, will accept adolescents who are picked up by transport services in the middle of the night recognizing that the use of such services is destructive to the relationship between children and their parents and is an act of cowardice and immaturity on the part of the parents.
5) Recognizing that the relationship of children with their parents is important, no facility will accept a child whose parents are divorced where the placement will impact on the non custodial parents visitation rights without first being provided with a court order permitting the placement.
6) All facilities will include in their promotional material specific details on the educational levels and certifications of all employees providing professional services. The distinction between services being provided by licensed professional and services being provided by others will be made clear.
7) All facilities will make available information about the number of adolescents admitted to the program in the past five years and the number that successfully “graduated” from the program..
All facilities will make it clear that it does not approve or tolerate physical abuse of adolescents, the use of exercise as punishment, the withholding of food or sleep as therapy or punishment, and the humiliation of adolescents as therapy.
9) All facilities will permit adolescents regular and unmonitored contact with their parents after an initial blackout period not to exceed two weeks.
10) No adolescent will be admitted to a facility based on a diagnosis contained within the DSM 4 unless they have first been treated for the condition that the facility diagnosed on an out patient basis in the community in which they live and if the diagnosis includes a disorder premised on an inability to get along with their parents the family has had a course of family therapy with a licensed therapist.
I suspect this would not work for the industry because if they followed them an industry, based on junk science, would seek to exist. [/b] The post and what follows appears on page 2 of a topic called "struggling teens changes their tune"
The poster who calls himself who but appears to be a tout for the industry engaged me. He called most of the points "reasonable but when I asked which facilities followed them he refused to respond. Instead he manipulated and steered the conversation in a remarkably condescending way and then started a new thread here he could get a list that was more general on the board. So I asked him to describe the facilities that met his new list he still would not respond. Similarly he declined to provide any information that wilderness programs help with any illness in the dsm. I ended the conversation when who refused to play fair but said I would come back today of he was ready to engage in a serious way. Are you who or do you still want to quit?
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You make this getting "pawned" thing sound so negative. MIS's list was well intended. I think in all fairness to her we should give her credit for coming up with the first draft and a foundation for all of us to work from.
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What color is the sky in your world? Is it pretty?
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:D pretty vacant ;D
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Nice and sunny, we had a snowy weekend so its nice to see the sun. Ski country made out fairly well also. I had this heated driveway installed. I expected it to melt and then run down to the lowest level and puddle up but it seems to just evaporate upon impact. I think they call that sublimation. I imagine if it snows hard enough it would puddle up.
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You make this getting "pawned" thing sound so negative. MIS's list was well intended. I think in all fairness to her we should give her credit for coming up with the first draft and a foundation for all of us to work from.
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Nevermind, ignore what i just said!
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WHAT HAVE YOU DONE TODAY TO HELP A PROGRAM KID?
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I woke up and puked in the toilet from a hard night of debauchery in Macau. God damn.. I love dancing girls... and casinos.. and dancing girls.. and casinos.. and dancing girls...