Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: psy on December 12, 2007, 08:36:36 PM
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: psy on December 12, 2007, 08:36:36 PM
What I'm reading (http://http://www.google.com/search?as_q=willful+suspension+of+disbelief+-Modest-Mouse)
Ginger mentioned this to me when we were talking.
Quote
Maintaining a believing attitude is a very human thing to do, especially when the alternative requires giving up something even more important to an individual than rationality. A believing attitude basically requires cultivating what is known as the "willful suspension of disbelief". This means that people will see what they want to see, and will ignore or minimize those facts that would lead to an opposite conclusion.
I don’t want to imply that this sort of behavior applies only to Christians, or even only to religious people. I think that many a scientist, while trying to sustain a pet theory, has applied the willful suspension of disbelief and ignored uncomfortable facts that might point to a differing conclusion. It is human to do this.
Nevertheless, ignoring the plain facts is stupid, IMO. Pride should not get in the way of the truth. This could be true of TheWho or it could be true of me as he would surely accuse me, however, anybody who has been in one of these little cults knows full well that the damage done by these places does not lie in bullshit numbers, but in very real long term damage caused by the types of thought reform used. He's pushing an irrelevant point. How many suicides aren't reported. I got more than one on my video tape and evidence of a bunch more... How does six months on average sound with a population of about 20 sound?
discuss
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: Nihilanthic on December 12, 2007, 11:08:37 PM
I think that video would shut him and a lot of other apologetic people with their pockets rather full of the hands of certain programmies up for good.
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: Che Gookin on December 13, 2007, 12:34:45 AM
They were all 'brainwashed' by their 2 parent seminars and a handful of phonecalls.
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: Anonymous on December 13, 2007, 04:58:29 AM
Quote
How does six months on average sound with a population of about 20 sound?
What do you mean Psy?
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: Ursus on December 13, 2007, 05:48:41 AM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote
How does six months on average sound with a population of about 20 sound?
What do you mean Psy?
I also don't understand what you mean by this... perhaps I am missing something?
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: Ursus on December 13, 2007, 06:00:23 AM
Quote from: ""psy""
...however, anybody who has been in one of these little cults knows full well that the damage done by these places does not lie in bullshit numbers, but in very real long term damage caused by the types of thought reform used.
I've said it before: I don't think you can quantify or even approximate the damage done by these places by any means practiced at the moment. No one bothers to do any long-term studies, but long-term studies are precisely what are needed given the kind of damage that takes place.
Do you really think industry insiders and apologists are going to do these kinds of studies? It is not in their financial best interests to touch this with a ten-foot pole. They might do an assessment whilst the kid is in program and maybe 1 year out. No further removed from exposure than that.
But much of the damage does not begin to percolate to the surface and become overtly evident 'till much later. It's like psychological asbestos. It takes time for some of the effects from exposure to show up, and by the time they do, you're pretty much fucked.
Title: Corn Pone `Pinions and the consensus trance
Post by: Antigen on December 13, 2007, 07:07:22 AM
Quote from: ""Mark Twain in Corn-pone Opinions""
FIFTY YEARS AGO, when I was a boy of fifteen and helping to inhabit a Missourian village on the banks of the Mississippi, I had a friend whose society was very dear to me because I was forbidden by my mother to partake of it. He was a gay and impudent and satirical and delightful young black man -a slave -who daily preached sermons from the top of his master's woodpile, with me for sole audience. He imitated the pulpit style of the several clergymen of the village, and did it well, and with fine passion and energy. To me he was a wonder. I believed he was the greatest orator in the United States and would some day be heard from. But it did not happen; in the distribution of rewards he was overlooked. It is the way, in this world.
He interrupted his preaching, now and then, to saw a stick of wood; but the sawing was a pretense -he did it with his mouth; exactly imitating the sound the bucksaw makes in shrieking its way through the wood. But it served its purpose; it kept his master from coming out to see how the work was getting along. I listened to the sermons from the open window of a lumber room at the back of the house. One of his texts was this:
"You tell me whar a man gits his corn pone, en I'll tell you what his 'pinions is."
I can never forget it. It was deeply impressed upon me. By my mother. Not upon my memory, but elsewhere. She had slipped in upon me while I was absorbed and not watching. The black philosopher's idea was that a man is not independent, and cannot afford views which might interfere with his bread and butter. If he would prosper, he must train with the majority; in matters of large moment, like politics and religion, he must think and feel with the bulk of his neighbors, or suffer damage in his social standing and in his business prosperities. He must restrict himself to corn-pone opinions -- at least on the surface. He must get his opinions from other people; he must reason out none for himself; he must have no first-hand views.
I think Jerry was right, in the main, but I think he did not go far enough.
1. It was his idea that a man conforms to the majority view of his locality by calculation and intention. This happens, but I think it is not the rule.
2. It was his idea that there is such a thing as a first-hand opinion; an original opinion; an opinion which is coldly reasoned out in a man's head, by a searching analysis of the facts involved, with the heart unconsulted, and the jury room closed against outside influences. It may be that such an opinion has been born somewhere, at some time or other, but I suppose it got away before they could catch it and stuff it and put it in the museum.
I am persuaded that a coldly-thought-out and independent verdict upon a fashion in clothes, or manners, or literature, or politics, or religion, or any other matter that is projected into the field of our notice and interest, is a most rare thing -- if it has indeed ever existed.
A new thing in costume appears -- the flaring hoopskirt, for example -- and the passers-by are shocked, and the irreverent laugh. Six months later everybody is reconciled; the fashion has established itself; it is admired, now, and no one laughs. Public opinion resented it before, public opinion accepts it now, and is happy in it. Why? Was the resentment reasoned out? Was the acceptance reasoned out? No. The instinct that moves to conformity did the work. It is our nature to conform; it is a force which not many can successfully resist. What is its seat? The inborn requirement of self-approval. We all have to bow to that; there are no exceptions. Even the woman who refuses from first to last to wear the hoop skirt comes under that law and is its slave; she could not wear the skirt and have her own approval; and that she must have, she cannot help herself. But as a rule our self-approval has its source in but one place and not elsewhere -- the approval of other people. A person of vast consequences can introduce any kind of novelty in dress and the general world will presently adopt it -- moved to do it, in the first place, by the natural instinct to passively yield to that vague something recognized as authority, and in the second place by the human instinct to train with the multitude and have its approval. An empress introduced the hoopskirt, and we know the result. A nobody introduced the bloomer, and we know the result. If Eve should come again, in her ripe renown, and reintroduce her quaint styles -- well, we know what would happen. And we should be cruelly embarrassed, along at first.
The hoopskirt runs its course and disappears. Nobody reasons about it. One woman abandons the fashion; her neighbor notices this and follows her lead; this influences the next woman; and so on and so on, and presently the skirt has vanished out of the world, no one knows how nor why, nor cares, for that matter. It will come again, by and by and in due course will go again.
Twenty-five years ago, in England, six or eight wine glasses stood grouped by each person's plate at a dinner party, and they were used, not left idle and empty; to-day there are but three or four in the group, and the average guest sparingly uses about two of them. We have not adopted this new fashion yet, but we shall do it presently. We shall not think it out; we shall merely conform, and let it go at that. We get our notions and habits and opinions from outside influences; we do not have to study them out.
Our table manners, and company manners, and street manners change from time to time, but the changes are not reasoned out; we merely notice and conform. We are creatures of outside influences; as a rule we do not think, we only imitate. We cannot invent standards that will stick; what we mistake for standards are only fashions, and perishable. We may continue to admire them, but we drop the use of them. We notice this in literature. Shakespeare is a standard, and fifty years ago we used to write tragedies which we couldn't tell from -- from somebody else's; but we don't do it any more, now. Our prose standard, three quarters of a century ago, was ornate and diffuse; some authority or other changed it in the direction of compactness and simplicity, and conformity followed, without argument. The historical novel starts up suddenly, and sweeps the land. Everybody writes one, and the nation is glad. We had historical novels before; but nobody read them, and the rest of us conformed -- without reasoning it out. We are conforming in the other way, now, because it is another case of everybody.
The outside influences are always pouring in upon us, and we are always obeying their orders and accepting their verdicts. The Smiths like the new play; the Joneses go to see it, and they copy the Smith verdict. Morals, religions, politics, get their following from surrounding influences and atmospheres, almost entirely; not from study, not from thinking. A man must and will have his own approval first of all, in each and every moment and circumstance of his life -- even if he must repent of a self-approved act the moment after its commission, in order to get his self-approval again: but, speaking in general terms, a man's self-approval in the large concerns of life has its source in the approval of the peoples about him, and not in a searching personal examination of the matter. Mohammedans are Mohammedans because they are born and reared among that sect, not because they have thought it out and can furnish sound reasons for being Mohammedans; we know why Catholics are Catholics; why Presbyterians are Presbyterians; why Baptists are Baptists; why Mormons are Mormons; why thieves are thieves; why monarchists are monarchists; why Republicans are Republicans and Democrats, Democrats. We know it is a matter of association and sympathy, not reasoning and examination; that hardly a man in the world has an opinion upon morals, politics, or religion which he got otherwise than through his associations and sympathies. Broadly speaking, there are none but corn-pone opinions. And broadly speaking, corn-pone stands for self-approval. Self-approval is acquired mainly from the approval of other people. The result is conformity. Sometimes conformity has a sordid business interest -- the bread-and-butter interest -- but not in most cases, I think. I think that in the majority of cases it is unconscious and not calculated; that it is born of the human being's natural yearning to stand well with his fellows and have their inspiring approval and praise -- a yearning which is commonly so strong and so insistent that it cannot be effectually resisted, and must have its way. A political emergency brings out the corn-pone opinion in fine force in its two chief varieties -- the pocketbook variety, which has its origin in self-interest, and the bigger variety, the sentimental variety -- the one which can't bear to be outside the pale; can't bear to be in disfavor; can't endure the averted face and the cold shoulder; wants to stand well with his friends, wants to be smiled upon, wants to be welcome, wants to hear the precious words, "He's on the right track!" Uttered, perhaps by an ass, but still an ass of high degree, an ass whose approval is gold and diamonds to a smaller ass, and confers glory and honor and happiness, and membership in the herd. For these gauds many a man will dump his life-long principles into the street, and his conscience along with them. We have seen it happen. In some millions of instances.
Men think they think upon great political questions, and they do; but they think with their party, not independently; they read its literature, but not that of the other side; they arrive at convictions, but they are drawn from a partial view of the matter in hand and are of no particular value. They swarm with their party, they feel with their party, they are happy in their party's approval; and where the party leads they will follow, whether for right and honor, or through blood and dirt and a mush of mutilated morals.
In our late canvass half of the nation passionately believed that in silver lay salvation, the other half as passionately believed that that way lay destruction. Do you believe that a tenth part of the people, on either side, had any rational excuse for having an opinion about the matter at all? I studied that mighty question to the bottom -- came out empty. Half of our people passionately believe in high tariff, the other half believe otherwise. Does this mean study and examination, or only feeling? The latter, I think. I have deeply studied that question, too -- and didn't arrive. We all do no end of feeling, and we mistake it for thinking. And out of it we get an aggregation which we consider a boon. Its name is Public Opinion. It is held in reverence. It settles everything. Some think it the Voice of God. http://www.paulgraham.com/cornpone.html (http://www.paulgraham.com/cornpone.html)
Quote from: ""Charley Tart on Consensus Trance""
Wake up!
By Howard Rheingold
The relationship between the use of language and the induction of trance states might be one of the keys to understanding life in the last years of the technology millenium. What if we're all in a trance, and have been given hypnotic suggestions to ignore the evidence that we are in a trance? As we stumble around, bedazzled, enormous machines eat the earth. How would we treat people who try to tell us that we need to wake up? Ask Charley Tart, Ph.D. As Professor of Psychology at the University of California, Davis, where he has taught, conducted research, and written books for the past 26 years, Charles Tart, Ph.D., qualifies as a tweedcoat and even a whitecoat. He is a member in good standing of the science cult, and his down to earth, low-key presentation lends an unexpected insider punch to his statements about the science cult's blind spots -- and every human's blind spots. He thinks of himself as a scientist, not a guru, working in a field that is underpopulated despite it's importance. It is underpopulated because research into consciousness is dangerous to an experimental psychologist's career, and because it isn't easy to do the kind of research that can get the attention of the orthodoxy. Tart's most recent book is Waking Up: Overcoming the Obstacles to Human Potential. [...] You can contact Dr. Tart via email: http://riceinfo.rice.edu/projects/RDA/V ... old/texts/ (http://riceinfo.rice.edu/projects/RDA/VirtualCity/Rheingold/texts/).
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: Anonymous on December 13, 2007, 07:59:01 AM
Quote from: ""Ursus""
Quote from: ""psy""
...however, anybody who has been in one of these little cults knows full well that the damage done by these places does not lie in bullshit numbers, but in very real long term damage caused by the types of thought reform used.
I've said it before: I don't think you can quantify or even approximate the damage done by these places by any means practiced at the moment. No one bothers to do any long-term studies, but long-term studies are precisely what are needed given the kind of damage that takes place.
Do you really think industry insiders and apologists are going to do these kinds of studies? It is not in their financial best interests to touch this with a ten-foot pole. They might do an assessment whilst the kid is in program and maybe 1 year out. No further removed from exposure than that.
But much of the damage does not begin to percolate to the surface and become overtly evident 'till much later. It's like psychological asbestos. It takes time for some of the effects from exposure to show up, and by the time they do, you're pretty much fucked.
You're absolutely right about this, it took 20 years for me to give it more than a second thought...
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: Antigen on December 13, 2007, 08:36:01 AM
I don't think anything will shut most of them up. But just having the discussion will draw them in. It's practically irresistible. Some will dig in,like most of my family has for the past generation and a half or so. Others will take good council from Cassious Clay, who said "The man who views the world at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.", wake the fuck up and practice their 2nd step for real. My dad did that for me only one time verbally then consistently with his feet for the rest of his life and that has saved me more than almost anything.
At any rate, this promises to continue to be a vibrant, animated and vitally important discussion. I'm about to start working on the Fornits' letter to Santa. Right now, more than anything, more than a pony, more than a million dollars, the Fornits want everybody to absorb, swap and discuss reading, viewing, and other artistic, jourlalistic, litigious and legislative; to better educate ourselves and enliven the debate. The commissions don't hurt things a bit, either, when you purchase your stuff through my amazon links. Or put something clever and poignant on a mug or tshirt at zazzle.com and use fornits as a tag. This should go without saying but, given the underlying bias and acculturation of the audience, I'll say it. This would include stuff with which you know already that the fornits and all their interesting friends and fans would certainly disagree. Bring it! Send us all copies of your favourite material or post straight amazon links if you can stand the thought of a little chump change going to the Care & Feeding of Fornits.
As always, all comers are welcome whether you agree or disagree with the majority of the room.
Rampant talking out in group!
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: Anonymous on December 13, 2007, 09:38:10 AM
There is no group. There's not even amity.
What Psy meant is that on average, 1 out of 20 program kids will kill themselves every six months. This seems excessive on the surface but is believable after some thought.
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: Anonymous on December 13, 2007, 09:45:47 AM
Quote from: ""Guest""
There's not even amity.
Hmm.. what about amityville?
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: TheWho on December 13, 2007, 10:06:01 AM
Quote from: ""Nihilanthic""
I think that video would shut him and a lot of other apologetic people with their pockets rather full of the hands of certain programmies up for good.
Well it depends.. if psy had full control over the interviews and chose which questions to ask and also had full control over editing the film then no I don’t think it will surprise anyone. We all are aware of psy’s position on Benchmark so the outcome of the film will not be an eye opener. If independent people were involved and Benchmark was included in choosing the questions and editing the film then I would be on the edge of my seat and request the first copy. But I suspect the film will have as heavy a bias as possible against Benchmark.
...
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: TheWho on December 13, 2007, 10:28:52 AM
Quote from: ""Guest""
There is no group. There's not even amity.
What Psy meant is that on average, 1 out of 20 program kids will kill themselves every six months. This seems excessive on the surface but is believable after some thought.
If this is in fact true.... what is it telling us? If these same group of kids never attended a program would the death rate increase to 1 out of 5? How do we know? If I told you another fact that 51% of people who undergo chemo therapy die within 5 years. How do we react to this? Should we ban people from having chemo therapy or is there some information missing? Is chemo causing their deaths?
...
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: Anne Bonney on December 13, 2007, 10:32:57 AM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Quote from: ""Nihilanthic""
I think that video would shut him and a lot of other apologetic people with their pockets rather full of the hands of certain programmies up for good.
Well it depends.. if psy had full control over the interviews and chose which questions to ask and also had full control over editing the film then no I don’t think it will surprise anyone. We all are aware of psy’s position on Benchmark so the outcome of the film will not be an eye opener. If independent people were involved and Benchmark was included in choosing the questions and editing the film then I would be on the edge of my seat and request the first copy. But I suspect the film will have as heavy a bias as possible against Benchmark.
...
I would have no problem with independent people doing a documentary on it. I would have no problem with Benchmark being able to have their say.....as long as Psy or others representing our POV were able to contribute equally....but that will never happen. Places like Benchmark can't stand up to the scrutiny of actual open debate. That's why isolation and secrecy is so important. That's why communication with family and anything to do with the outside world is either halted altogether or severely restricted, monitored and otherwise censored. That's why they shy away from studies and long term research (as Who is so often fond of asking..."why would they want to do that??". He says the same thing about regulation). They know they wouldn't stand a chance. Can you imagine if one of them really decided to do a point-by-point debate with one of us??? Holy shit!!!
Flip on the light and watch the cockroaches scatter.
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: Anne Bonney on December 13, 2007, 10:38:24 AM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
If this is in fact true.... what is it telling us? If these same group of kids never attended a program would the death rate increase to 1 out of 5? How do we know? If I told you another fact that 51% of people who undergo chemo therapy die within 5 years. How do we react to this? Should we ban people from having chemo therapy or is there some information missing? Is chemo causing their deaths?
Its not too much of a stretch to figure out if you have a 'troubled kid' (although most really aren't...its just helicopter parenting) and ship him off to a bunch of pseudo-therapeutic center with un or underqualified staff who use the "positive peer culture" or "therapeutic community" approach of humiliation, forced confessions and thought reform, mucking around in a developing psyche.....you're gonna have problems.
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: TheWho on December 13, 2007, 10:51:59 AM
Quote from: ""Anne Bonney""
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Quote from: ""Nihilanthic""
I think that video would shut him and a lot of other apologetic people with their pockets rather full of the hands of certain programmies up for good.
Well it depends.. if psy had full control over the interviews and chose which questions to ask and also had full control over editing the film then no I don’t think it will surprise anyone. We all are aware of psy’s position on Benchmark so the outcome of the film will not be an eye opener. If independent people were involved and Benchmark was included in choosing the questions and editing the film then I would be on the edge of my seat and request the first copy. But I suspect the film will have as heavy a bias as possible against Benchmark.
...
I would have no problem with independent people doing a documentary on it. I would have no problem with Benchmark being able to have their say.....as long as Psy or others representing our POV were able to contribute equally....but that will never happen. Places like Benchmark can't stand up to the scrutiny of actual open debate. That's why isolation and secrecy is so important. That's why communication with family and anything to do with the outside world is either halted altogether or severely restricted, monitored and otherwise censored. That's why they shy away from studies and long term research (as Who is so often fond of asking..."why would they want to do that??". He says the same thing about regulation). They know they wouldn't stand a chance. Can you imagine if one of them really decided to do a point-by-point debate with one of us??? Holy shit!!!
Flip on the light and watch the cockroaches scatter.
This makes my point. If you, Anne, had full control over the questions and edit control the film would have the same spin. You have a negative view of the place based on what you have heard here on fornits... Do you have first hand knowledge that they have turned down long term studies being conducted? Have they turned down any organizations willing to debate them? Can you be specific?
You are about as closed minded as they come so I expect it... I admit I dont know much about BenchMark, but all I am saying is I think we can all agree the film will not be a balanced view point.
...
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: Anne Bonney on December 13, 2007, 10:58:03 AM
Have you not had your coffee yet or do you usually have this much trouble with reading comprehension??
I said I would have no problem with an independent entity doing a documentary on Benchmark or any of the other programs. I said I would have no problem with the programs having a say in it as long as someone representing our POV had equal time. G'head. Ask Benchmark or any of the others if they would ever agree to this. Let me know how you make out.
:roll:
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: TheWho on December 13, 2007, 11:00:25 AM
Quote from: ""Anne Bonney""
Quote from: ""TheWho""
If this is in fact true.... what is it telling us? If these same group of kids never attended a program would the death rate increase to 1 out of 5? How do we know? If I told you another fact that 51% of people who undergo chemo therapy die within 5 years. How do we react to this? Should we ban people from having chemo therapy or is there some information missing? Is chemo causing their deaths?
Its not too much of a stretch to figure out if you have a 'troubled kid' (although most really aren't...its just helicopter parenting) and ship him off to a bunch of pseudo-therapeutic center with un or underqualified staff who use the "positive peer culture" or "therapeutic community" approach of humiliation, forced confessions and thought reform, mucking around in a developing psyche.....you're gonna have problems.
You are spewing anger, Anne, and once again you have nothing to back your statements up. You heckle programs for not doing studies to back up their claims and you turn around and do the same thing. How about If I did the same thing and said: Its not a stretch to see that if you place a child in a nurturing environment, remove the child’s negative influences and build up their self esteem they are going to do great in life and suicide rates will drop off dramatically. This actually makes more sense and is more believable because I don’t have an agenda; I am open minded and am not angry at everyone who disagrees with me.
...
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: Anne Bonney on December 13, 2007, 11:01:03 AM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
but all I am saying is I think we can all agree the film will not be a balanced view point.
And at least quit saying that. I'm hard pressed to recall any occasion that we all agreed with anything, let alone a point you made.
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: psy on December 13, 2007, 11:13:17 AM
Quote from: ""Guest""
There is no group. There's not even amity.
What Psy meant is that on average, 1 out of 20 program kids will kill themselves every six months.
No. I meant that there is an attempt every six months (though at least one success inside program that I know of) (there are a bunch more successes outside)
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: Anne Bonney on December 13, 2007, 11:28:35 AM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
You are spewing anger, Anne, and once again you have nothing to back your statements up. You heckle programs for not doing studies to back up their claims and you turn around and do the same thing.
Yes, I'm angry that these places continue to abuse kids. I'm angry that kids are continuing to die from restraints, excessive exercise, suicide etc. I'm angry that people haven't listened or learned from the past 40 odd years. Yep, you betcha.
On backing things up........listen carefully as this has been repeated to you numerous times........ It is the responsibility of the person making the claim of success to provide proof of such claims. These places have been touting bogus success rates for years without anyone calling them on it. I'm calling them out. Back up your claims for success.
Programs are offering therapeutic services with no evidence of efficacy or safety for that matter. That, IMO, is borderline criminal.
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: TheWho on December 13, 2007, 11:35:58 AM
Quote from: ""Anne Bonney""
Quote from: ""TheWho""
You are spewing anger, Anne, and once again you have nothing to back your statements up. You heckle programs for not doing studies to back up their claims and you turn around and do the same thing.
Yes, I'm angry that these places continue to abuse kids. I'm angry that kids are continuing to die from restraints, excessive exercise, suicide etc. I'm angry that people haven't listened or learned from the past 40 odd years. Yep, you betcha.
On backing things up........listen carefully as this has been repeated to you numerous times........ It is the responsibility of the person making the claim of success to provide proof of such claims. These places have been touting bogus success rates for years without anyone calling them on it. I'm calling them out. Back up your claims for success.
Programs are offering therapeutic services with no evidence of efficacy or safety for that matter. That, IMO, is borderline criminal.
So since there have been little or no studies it doesn’t mean the schools are not effective and your anger may be misdirected. You are making assumptions when you claim the programs are not helping kids. How do you know that the schools have not listened or learned over the past 40 years?
Until such time as studies are done we need to rely on the information at hand which are schools feedback, parents and kids feedback.
...
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: Anne Bonney on December 13, 2007, 11:46:04 AM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
How do you know that the schools have not listened or learned over the past 40 years?
Because they still use the same tactics that Straight used on me. When I read of the LGATs and seminars it makes me weep. Seriously. Makes me cry every time because I know how it feels to be trapped in that mess.
Quote
Until such time as studies are done we need to rely on the information at hand which are schools feedback, parents and kids feedback.
We need to force the issue of research. Programs don't want light shown on them. Again, that's why the need for the extreme isolation and separation from society. That's why everything is censored and restricted. That's why parents are told, before they even speak to their kid, to be on the lookout for manipulations such as claims of abuse. They set the parent up to not believe anything negative about the program the kids say. They won't allow un-announced visits. They won't allow outsiders to observe. They need the secrecy to continue to function. My goal is to expose that insular little world that allows them to foist unproven mind and thought control techniques on developing psyches.
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: Anonymous on December 13, 2007, 12:12:43 PM
ok, hey who: An independently funded and limited research project was formally completed last year... you ought to know that in khk, a program that proclaims to save kids from the "scourge" of drugs, gayness, and overall family dysfunction, there was an average of 1.5 reported suicide attempts INSIDE that outpatient facility from 1998 until 2005. Now, based on speculation, it could be reasonable to suspect that given the ACTUAL treatment environment there which would best be described as 'inpatient residential' that another program doing similar treatment would have similar results. Also, this figure was based on the reported attempts. Not the unreported ones that may have happened. It also does not include the attempts ending in death.
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: Anonymous on December 13, 2007, 12:14:53 PM
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: TheWho on December 13, 2007, 12:50:37 PM
Quote from: ""Anne Bonney""
Because they still use the same tactics that Straight used on me. When I read of the LGATs and seminars it makes me weep. Seriously. Makes me cry every time because I know how it feels to be trapped in that mess.
So you are saying that there is no difference from straight in the 1970 to the programs like , say, ASR of Today? I think you are trapped in the past. You would be hard pressed to find many professionals to agree with you.
Quote
We need to force the issue of research. Programs don't want light shown on them. Again, that's why the need for the extreme isolation and separation from society. That's why everything is censored and restricted. That's why parents are told, before they even speak to their kid, to be on the lookout for manipulations such as claims of abuse. They set the parent up to not believe anything negative about the program the kids say. They won't allow un-announced visits. They won't allow outsiders to observe. They need the secrecy to continue to function. My goal is to expose that insular little world that allows them to foist unproven mind and thought control techniques on developing psyches.
Anne, you are so paranoid. There is no shroud of isolation or secrecy. Many of these places have no fences, if the child doesnt like it they can just walk away or get kicked out. Parents can visit the campus and speak with kids at random or have lunch with all of them. The kids can see therapists who are independent from the school and the therapists can speak with the Childs counselors at home. This talk of mind control is a little weird, to say the least.
...
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: TheWho on December 13, 2007, 01:02:26 PM
Quote from: ""who knows?""
ok, hey who: An independently funded and limited research project was formally completed last year... you ought to know that in khk, a program that proclaims to save kids from the "scourge" of drugs, gayness, and overall family dysfunction, there was an average of 1.5 reported suicide attempts INSIDE that outpatient facility from 1998 until 2005. Now, based on speculation, it could be reasonable to suspect that given the ACTUAL treatment environment there which would best be described as 'inpatient residential' that another program doing similar treatment would have similar results. Also, this figure was based on the reported attempts. Not the unreported ones that may have happened. It also does not include the attempts ending in death.
How can you keep a straight face and say that based on speculation? You are widely assuming a lot..unreporting, underreporting…did the study mention this?
I read it as no suicides occurred during 1998 and 2005. I think it would be reasonable to speculate that if the kids were not under the protection of the program the suicide attempts would not only be increased but many more would have been successful, thereby underscoring the success of the programs.
...
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: Antigen on December 13, 2007, 01:02:35 PM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
If [5% suicide attempt] is in fact true.... what is it telling us? If these same group of kids never attended a program would the death rate increase to 1 out of 5? How do we know?
Yes, it's pretty close to true based on the best available calculation of the number of kids in Synanon/Stepcraft/LGAT type placements hashed against the number of reported suicide attempts/completions. No the rate would not go up w/o the program. This becomes obvious to anyone w/ an attention span longer than that of a cocker spaniel puppy once we factor in that there is no significant difference in terms of actual dysfunction between the unfortunate souls who receive 'help' from your coven and those who, blessedly, escape your benevolence.
Quote
If I told you another fact that 51% of people who undergo chemo therapy die within 5 years. How do we react to this? Should we ban people from having chemo therapy or is there some information missing? Is chemo causing their deaths? ...
Yes. According to a growing number of medical professionals, chemo and other heroic medical procedures are shamefully over-prescribed. While that particular practice should not be banned because, in some cases and based on hard scientific data, it passes the risk/benefit test, it certainly should not be used so often as it is.
This is not the case with your brand of snake oil. Scientists do not hold hands at the end of a seminar and say "I de believe in science! I do! I do!" They may be somewhat biased and all too often let that get the best of them. But, at the end of the day, they publish their data, their methods, their conclusions and their case studies for review by the public and their peers and then they direct themselves accordingly.
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: Anne Bonney on December 13, 2007, 01:03:38 PM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Anne, you are so paranoid. There is no shroud of isolation or secrecy. Many of these places have no fences, if the child doesnt like it they can just walk away or get kicked out. Parents can visit the campus and speak with kids at random or have lunch with all of them. The kids can see therapists who are independent from the school and the therapists can speak with the Childs counselors at home. This talk of mind control is a little weird, to say the least.
...
Exit Plans keep kids in there. Programs are the master manipulators. They manipulate the parents into believing that the kids will DIE if they leave. They manipulate the kids into accepting their fate by convincing the parents to turn the kid out if he leaves the program or does something to be kicked out. When a kid is forced with a decision between losing his home and family and submitting to the thought reform being presented to them, its not difficult to see why they really have no choice.
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: Antigen on December 13, 2007, 01:35:22 PM
Up till now, the toughlove hate group has been monopolized the soap box, using our own college funds and inheritances along with massive amounts of 'volunteer' man hours and other resources to produce their sustained propaganda campaign. Psy's a pretty talented, competent kid with an admirable work ethic and some nifty toys. But there's only so much an editor can do to slant live footage complete w/ body language and all the other social cues lost on text communication. If you actually listen to the way these boys conduct themselves w/ leo and with the program participants you'll find they carry themselves with admirable constraint and, for lack of a better word, elan. But even if they were expansive, delusional and hysterical instead of letting the cult members dance that dance, they couldn't possibly offset the 30 year concerted, well funded and carefully camoflaged propaganda campaign described above.
The beautiful part is that, on our side, we don't have to spend much or resort to force or fraud to get `er done because people want to get the word out for their own reasons. All we need is rampant talking out in group.
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: TheWho on December 13, 2007, 01:38:03 PM
Quote
Yes. According to a growing number of medical professionals, chemo and other heroic medical procedures are shamefully over-prescribed. While that particular practice should not be banned because, in some cases and based on hard scientific data, it passes the risk/benefit test, it certainly should not be used so often as it is.
A growing number of medical professionals (there was 1 last year in Jamaica and another one was added this year from Scotland) believe chemo is over prescribed. Maybe it shouldn’t be used as often as it is, This still doesn’t demonstrate that chemo is causing 51% of the patients who undergo it to die within 5 years.
Quote
This is not the case with your brand of snake oil. Scientists do not hold hands at the end of a seminar and say "I de believe in science! I do! I do!" They may be somewhat biased and all too often let that get the best of them. But, at the end of the day, they publish their data, their methods, their conclusions and their case studies for review by the public and their peers and then they direct themselves accordingly.
The majority of doctors don’t publish crap.. they pick up their checks at the end of the week and go home like the rest of us. There are people who dedicate themselves and careers to research and they submit and publish their findings.
...
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: Anonymous on December 13, 2007, 01:44:47 PM
Wow. What a way to completely miss the point of her post.
:rofl:
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: TheWho on December 13, 2007, 01:47:29 PM
Quote from: ""Anne Bonney""
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Anne, you are so paranoid. There is no shroud of isolation or secrecy. Many of these places have no fences, if the child doesnt like it they can just walk away or get kicked out. Parents can visit the campus and speak with kids at random or have lunch with all of them. The kids can see therapists who are independent from the school and the therapists can speak with the Childs counselors at home. This talk of mind control is a little weird, to say the least.
...
Exit Plans keep kids in there. Programs are the master manipulators. They manipulate the parents into believing that the kids will DIE if they leave. They manipulate the kids into accepting their fate by convincing the parents to turn the kid out if he leaves the program or does something to be kicked out. When a kid is forced with a decision between losing his home and family and submitting to the thought reform being presented to them, its not difficult to see why they really have no choice.
Anne, this says a lot about why you are the way you are. You really bought into all this thinking? Hook, line and sinker it appears. You shouldnt base yur view of these places solely on what you read here, much of it is crap and embelished at best.
We are talking about kids who are at risk and need a little structure, education, safety and time to get back on track. Others need the help of a therapist. I dont know what you have been reading but you have a messed up view of therapy.
...
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: Anne Bonney on December 13, 2007, 01:56:47 PM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Anne, this says a lot about why you are the way you are. You really bought into all this thinking? Hook, line and sinker it appears.
I had no choice. If I wanted to remain in any contact at all with my family I was required to buy into the bullshit. Just the same way kids today are being forced to buy into the thought reform and mindrape.
Quote
You shouldnt base yur view of these places solely on what you read here, much of it is crap and embelished at best.
You should quit telling me what I should or shouldn't do. You suck at it. Its wrong and impolite and does nothing to further the discussion.
I've visited countless programs and haven't found one yet to be significantly different from what Straight/Synanon/Seed/CEDU/WWASPS are pushing. They all say they've got "the answer" for these damn druggie kids. Or anorexic kids. Or overeaters. Or sex addicts. Or homosexuals.
Quote
We are talking about kids who are at risk and need a little structure, education, safety and time to get back on track.
Ah, yet most of the kids placed are done so without benefit of an actual MEDICAL DIAGNOSIS. They are placed with under or completely UNqualified staff using questionable, at best, methods that began with Synanon/Seed/Straight/CEDU/WWASPS. If all they need is a little stucture and time, have the parents take them on a fucking road trip. Or camping for a few months. Or send them to Europe for a summer. Have them work with Habitat for Humanity. ANYTHING but this goddamn thought reform/behavior modification bullshit.
Any time you fuck around with a developing psyche using untested, unproven and highly questionable methods...you're playing with fire.
Quote
Others need the help of a therapist.
They ain't gonna get that at programs now are they?
Quote
I dont know what you have been reading but you have a messed up view of therapy.
Even you can't be THIS stupid.
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: Ursus on December 13, 2007, 01:59:12 PM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Quote from: ""who knows?""
ok, hey who: An independently funded and limited research project was formally completed last year... you ought to know that in khk, a program that proclaims to save kids from the "scourge" of drugs, gayness, and overall family dysfunction, there was an average of 1.5 reported suicide attempts INSIDE that outpatient facility from 1998 until 2005. Now, based on speculation, it could be reasonable to suspect that given the ACTUAL treatment environment there which would best be described as 'inpatient residential' that another program doing similar treatment would have similar results. Also, this figure was based on the reported attempts. Not the unreported ones that may have happened. It also does not include the attempts ending in death.
How can you keep a straight face and say that based on speculation? You are widely assuming a lot..unreporting, underreporting…did the study mention this?
I read it as no suicides occurred during 1998 and 2005. I think it would be reasonable to speculate that if the kids were not under the protection of the program the suicide attempts would not only be increased but many more would have been successful, thereby underscoring the success of the programs.
Are you saying that suicide attempts are not worthy of any kind of consideration or monitoring? Seems to me they are certainly some kind of barometer on the deal that goes down there.
And I'd also like to hear just what your take is on "progress" down the road, so to speak. Given that most of these places claim to make a positive difference in your LIFE, isn't it a bit odd that once the gravy train is no longer functioning at peak capacity, gone also is the CONCERN.
Guess what? When kids try to function in the "real" world post-program, that's when a lot of the problems and coping deficiencies -- in many cases, brought on by the program in question -- begin to really show up. Is anybody bothering with monitoring this demographic? What about suicides and suicide attempt post-program, because of program?
Hyde School does zero "follow-up" beyond the incessant fund-raising spam that follows you from address to address. In fact, the spam never stops. Even in cases where Hyde faculty have assaulted and/or raped the kids in question, and the kids have left under the most acrimonious circumstances, the parents never stop receiving the infernal requests for monies. In one case I know of, even after the kid tried killing themselves post-program. Because of what happened to them in program. Hyde's response, concern? More fund-raising attempts.
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: TheWho on December 13, 2007, 02:07:34 PM
Quote from: ""Antigen""
Up till now, the toughlove hate group has been monopolized the soap box, using our own college funds and inheritances along with massive amounts of 'volunteer' man hours and other resources to produce their sustained propaganda campaign. Psy's a pretty talented, competent kid with an admirable work ethic and some nifty toys. But there's only so much an editor can do to slant live footage complete w/ body language and all the other social cues lost on text communication. If you actually listen to the way these boys conduct themselves w/ leo and with the program participants you'll find they carry themselves with admirable constraint and, for lack of a better word, elan. But even if they were expansive, delusional and hysterical instead of letting the cult members dance that dance, they couldn't possibly offset the 30 year concerted, well funded and carefully camoflaged propaganda campaign described above.
The beautiful part is that, on our side, we don't have to spend much or resort to force or fraud to get `er done because people want to get the word out for their own reasons. All we need is rampant talking out in group.
I am not trying to take anything away from the work done. But the fact remains that it is designed and run by one person and their opinion and what lies on the editing room floor is up to him (no one else). This needs to be taken into consideration when viewing the film, especially if the film is spun to be all negative towards BenchMark.
No different than if someone who was heavily financial vested in the success of the program were to film a documentary, they would cut out most of the negative comments in an attempt to make the school look as good as possible.
...
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: TheWho on December 13, 2007, 02:15:57 PM
Quote from: ""Anne Bonney""
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Anne, this says a lot about why you are the way you are. You really bought into all this thinking? Hook, line and sinker it appears.
I had no choice. If I wanted to remain in any contact at all with my family I was required to buy into the bullshit. Just the same way kids today are being forced to buy into the thought reform and mindrape.
Quote
You shouldnt base yur view of these places solely on what you read here, much of it is crap and embelished at best.
You should quit telling me what I should or shouldn't do. You suck at it. Its wrong and impolite and does nothing to further the discussion.
I've visited countless programs and haven't found one yet to be significantly different from what Straight/Synanon/Seed/CEDU/WWASPS are pushing. They all say they've got "the answer" for these damn druggie kids. Or anorexic kids. Or overeaters. Or sex addicts. Or homosexuals.
Quote
We are talking about kids who are at risk and need a little structure, education, safety and time to get back on track.
Ah, yet most of the kids placed are done so without benefit of an actual MEDICAL DIAGNOSIS. They are placed with under or completely UNqualified staff using questionable, at best, methods that began with Synanon/Seed/Straight/CEDU/WWASPS. If all they need is a little stucture and time, have the parents take them on a fucking road trip. Or camping for a few months. Or send them to Europe for a summer. Have them work with Habitat for Humanity. ANYTHING but this goddamn thought reform/behavior modification bullshit.
Any time you fuck around with a developing psyche using untested, unproven and highly questionable methods...you're playing with fire.
Quote
Others need the help of a therapist.
They ain't gonna get that at programs now are they?
Quote
I dont know what you have been reading but you have a messed up view of therapy.
Even you can't be THIS stupid.
you are way off the mark. I find it hard to believe you visited any programs, Anne, it just isnt that way anymore. I have been reading the posts here myself and yes some are more hash then others but they are not like the straight of the 1970's. You are stuck in the past and that is all you can see. Wake up... kids need help..yes they are at risk whether you want to believe it or not. If you really want to help any of these kids try to get an up to date view of the industry and roll up your sleeves, broadcasting this ancient mind control crap is embarrassing at best and lacks credibility.
...
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: Anne Bonney on December 13, 2007, 02:25:51 PM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
you are way off the mark.
Nope, I'm really not.
Quote
I find it hard to believe you visited any programs, Anne, it just isnt that way anymore.
I don't give a shit what you believe about me and yes, it IS that way still. Very much so.
Quote
I have been reading the posts here myself and yes some are more hash then others but they are not like the straight of the 1970's. You are stuck in the past and that is all you can see.
Most of them are. Certainly the ones that follow the therapeutic community/positive peer culture style approach. They're almost identical in their theories about how to deal with those damn delinquents.
Quote
Wake up... kids need help..yes they are at risk whether you want to believe it or not.
A small few are and they need actual medical help....not untested, unproven quackery that was derived from a known cult (Synanon).
Don't forget, I've raised two kids successfully. I've been through the sleepless nights, the dreading of the phone ringing, the fights and arguments, the white knuckle fear that comes with parenting. I've been through the drug scene with one of my daughters and I've posted before that had her grandparents had their way, she would have been shipped off just like her father and i were. Thankfully, we knew better and I literally told them it would be over my dead damn body that they'd send either of them anywhere. Somehow she (and I) made it through their adolescence without benefit of a program.
Quote
If you really want to help any of these kids try to get an up to date view of the industry and roll up your sleeves, broadcasting this ancient mind control crap is embarrassing at best and lacks credibility.
In your eyes, but I could really give a shit what you think. It most certainly IS mind control/thought reform/behavior modification. Nuthin but.
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: Botched Programming on December 13, 2007, 02:31:48 PM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
broadcasting this ancient mind control crap is embarrassing at best and lacks credibility.[/color][/b]
...
I personally feel that if people like Anne, myself, and many others do not broadcast this mind control crap as you so put it, (If in fact the industry has changed based on your opinion) it helps prevent history from repeating itself.
Though out history we have learned that if we do not keep the past in focus, we are doomed to repeat our past mistakes.
Also if in fact the industry has changed they should have no fear of people like us telling what thought reform and behavioral modification was like in the past, as long as they are not continuing the same methods today.
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: Anne Bonney on December 13, 2007, 02:35:20 PM
Botched, you should know better by now than to try and introduce logic into a conversation with him. You'll only confuse the poor creature.
:wink: :rofl:
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: TheWho on December 13, 2007, 02:47:50 PM
Quote from: ""Botched Programming""
Quote from: ""TheWho""
broadcasting this ancient mind control crap is embarrassing at best and lacks credibility.[/color][/b]
...
I personally feel that if people like Anne, myself, and many others do not broadcast this mind control crap as you so put it, (If in fact the industry has changed based on your opinion) it helps prevent history from repeating itself.
Though out history we have learned that if we do not keep the past in focus, we are doomed to repeat our past mistakes.
I think it is important to remind people of our mistakes of the past so that we do not repeat them., so long as we dont try to convince people we are still living in the past.
Quote
Also if in fact the industry has changed they should have no fear of people like us telling what thought reform and behavioral modification was like in the past, as long as they are not continuing the same methods today.
Agreed. I dont think the programs have a problem with everyone talking about mind control and lobotomies etc because it doesnt effect them.... but this information makes fornits look very foolish to parents reading here. Most are new to the industry but most know enough to not buy into this type of hype and it only serves to hurt fornits in the long run. Current information is what is needed.
...
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: Anne Bonney on December 13, 2007, 02:54:36 PM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
I think it is important to remind people of our mistakes of the past so that we do not repeat them., so long as we dont try to convince people we are still living in the past.
The programs are so we're here to make everyone aware of where they got the basic, fundamental techniques.
Quote
Agreed. I dont think the programs have a problem with everyone talking about mind control and lobotomies etc because it doesnt effect them....
There you go again putting words in my mouth. When did I ever say anything about lobotomies??? Other than maybe suggesting you've been a recipient of one.
Quote
but this information makes fornits look very foolish to parents reading here. Most are new to the industry but they know enough to not buy into this type of hype and it only serves to hurt fornits in the long run. Current information is what is needed.
Awww how sweet. Don't you worry your pretty little head about what parents think of "us".
Being a product of a hellish 1 year stint in a rehab as a teenager, I am on the lookout for "programs" that say they want to help with "troubled teens". I haven' t posted in this forum for a long time, but thought that I would tell you that the other day I was in Dahlonega with a friend of mine doing some shopping and I said, "lets go for a little ride in the woods". lol We drove to HLA and I drove right into the place. I didn't realize how far back it is in the woods (never saw this lake) and how close it is to a military training base. Anywho, drove right into the grounds like I owned the place, didn't see a soul around. Took a right turn next to what looked like the admissions building and drove along what looked like the dorms (they all looked like they weren't being used). Got to the end of the road and had to make a u-turn (not what I wanted to have to do) and head back toward the admissions building where I saw about 15 people standing in the road looking at us. Ok, shit time! LOL I concocted this story (so that I wouldn't be charged with tresspassing) about how my 15 year old son is really needing some kind of help because he is always in trouble. And that I had heard about this place and thought that I would take a look at it and see what it looked like (innocent enough right?). I'll be damned, after about 30 minutes of listening to their BS about how great this place was and them trying everything that they could think of to get me to go into the admissions office, I bolted out of there.
WOW I can't tell you the feelings that came over me as I was sitting there listening to them. I felt like I was 15 again and back in the program. That just shows you, they still use alot of the same tactics that they were using back then.
Well, that was a little long, sorry. But I thought that I would share that.
Nicole
Same shit, different wrapper.
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: TheWho on December 13, 2007, 03:21:16 PM
Quote from: ""Anne Bonney""
Quote from: ""TheWho""
I think it is important to remind people of our mistakes of the past so that we do not repeat them., so long as we dont try to convince people we are still living in the past.
The programs are so we're here to make everyone aware of where they got the basic, fundamental techniques.
Quote
Agreed. I dont think the programs have a problem with everyone talking about mind control and lobotomies etc because it doesnt effect them....
There you go again putting words in my mouth. When did I ever say anything about lobotomies??? Other than maybe suggesting you've been a recipient of one.
Quote
but this information makes fornits look very foolish to parents reading here. Most are new to the industry but they know enough to not buy into this type of hype and it only serves to hurt fornits in the long run. Current information is what is needed.
Awww how sweet. Don't you worry your pretty little head about what parents think of "us".
Being a product of a hellish 1 year stint in a rehab as a teenager, I am on the lookout for "programs" that say they want to help with "troubled teens". I haven' t posted in this forum for a long time, but thought that I would tell you that the other day I was in Dahlonega with a friend of mine doing some shopping and I said, "lets go for a little ride in the woods". lol We drove to HLA and I drove right into the place. I didn't realize how far back it is in the woods (never saw this lake) and how close it is to a military training base. Anywho, drove right into the grounds like I owned the place, didn't see a soul around. Took a right turn next to what looked like the admissions building and drove along what looked like the dorms (they all looked like they weren't being used). Got to the end of the road and had to make a u-turn (not what I wanted to have to do) and head back toward the admissions building where I saw about 15 people standing in the road looking at us. Ok, shit time! LOL I concocted this story (so that I wouldn't be charged with tresspassing) about how my 15 year old son is really needing some kind of help because he is always in trouble. And that I had heard about this place and thought that I would take a look at it and see what it looked like (innocent enough right?). I'll be damned, after about 30 minutes of listening to their BS about how great this place was and them trying everything that they could think of to get me to go into the admissions office, I bolted out of there.
WOW I can't tell you the feelings that came over me as I was sitting there listening to them. I felt like I was 15 again and back in the program. That just shows you, they still use alot of the same tactics that they were using back then.
Well, that was a little long, sorry. But I thought that I would share that.
Nicole
Same shit, different wrapper.
Dont be so paranoid, Anne, no one was putting words in your mouth, That post was directed to "Botched". I think it is important how parents view fornits if they are some of the people we are trying to reach and I think they are. If your only intention is to use fornits as a dumping ground for your anger and hatred then shame on you... many of us here are trying to make things better for the kids, you had your chance to straighten out and you blew it, lets try to help some other people out for a change.
...
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: Anonymous on December 13, 2007, 03:31:11 PM
Trying to "help the kids," Who? Please, you fucking jackass. You are here for the sole purpose of propmoting programs, no matter how abusive they are, and to bash survivors of program abuse.
Who are you to say Anne or anybody else "blew it"? YOU blew it. YOU failed in raising your child, not Anne. Every time you point the finger you only indict yourself.
You were a rich kid, given everything you ever had, given a trust fund, handed a job. What the fuck do you know about ordinary people? Even after being spoon fed life in it's most easily digestible form you SCREWED UP YOUR KID THEN SENT HER AWAY TO AN ABUSIVE SHIT PIT to be dealt with at the hands of a career child abuser, Rudy Bentz.
YOU blew it, Who. YOU'RE the loser around here, not Anne.
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: Anne Bonney on December 13, 2007, 03:34:24 PM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Dont be so paranoid, Anne, no one was putting words in your mouth, That post was directed to "Botched". I think it is important how parents view fornits if they are some of the people we are trying to reach and I think they are. If your only intention is to use fornits as a dumping ground for your anger and hatred then shame on you... many of us here are trying to make things better for the kids, you had your chance to straighten out and you blew it, lets try to help some other people out for a change.
...
Oh bite me you pathetic simp. You are not part of this "us" you keep referring to. I've been here for a helluva lot longer than you. I've got a boatload more experience (direct, which you have NONE of and indirect) with this shit than you and I was around for damn near the inception of Fornits. You have no idea what I have or have not done, save for what I've let you know. You're just along for the ride.
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: Anne Bonney on December 13, 2007, 03:41:41 PM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
you had your chance to straighten out and you blew it, l
Whoa!! I missed that part. What, pray tell, did I blow?
This should be good.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: TheWho on December 13, 2007, 03:41:53 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Trying to "help the kids," Who? Please, you fucking jackass. You are here for the sole purpose of propmoting programs, no matter how abusive they are, and to bash survivors of program abuse.
Who are you to say Anne or anybody else "blew it"? YOU blew it. YOU failed in raising your child, not Anne. Every time you point the finger you only indict yourself.
You were a rich kid, given everything you ever had, given a trust fund, handed a job. What the fuck do you know about ordinary people? Even after being spoon fed life in it's most easily digestible form you SCREWED UP YOUR KID THEN SENT HER AWAY TO AN ABUSIVE SHIT PIT to be dealt with at the hands of a career child abuser, Rudy Bentz.
YOU blew it, Who. YOU'RE the loser around here, not Anne.
Sorry, you seem really pissed off, but I disagree with you. If everyone can bash parents/programmies, why can’t parents/programmies bash anti-program people? Why the double standard? I wasn’t any more hash with her as she was with me. I think it is a crime to spread misinformation and to misdirect parents because of some personal views or hang-ups. I think it is important to remember that there are kids who need help and there are places to help them (some good and some bad) to paint them all one color and misinform these parents is doing a disservice to the kids and probably results in more harm than good.
...
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: Anonymous on December 13, 2007, 03:48:57 PM
TheWhore wrote:
Quote
I think it is a crime to spread misinformation and to misdirect parents because of some personal views...
This guy scores ground-zero hits on himself with astonishing regularity.
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: TheWho on December 13, 2007, 03:49:39 PM
Quote from: ""Anne Bonney""
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Dont be so paranoid, Anne, no one was putting words in your mouth, That post was directed to "Botched". I think it is important how parents view fornits if they are some of the people we are trying to reach and I think they are. If your only intention is to use fornits as a dumping ground for your anger and hatred then shame on you... many of us here are trying to make things better for the kids, you had your chance to straighten out and you blew it, lets try to help some other people out for a change.
...
Oh bite me you pathetic simp. You are not part of this "us" you keep referring to. I've been here for a helluva lot longer than you. I've got a boatload more experience (direct, which you have NONE of and indirect) with this shit than you and I was around for damn near the inception of Fornits. You have no idea what I have or have not done, save for what I've let you know. You're just along for the ride.
Its not how long you have been on fornits, Anne, but what you know and how you use your knowledge to help others, both of which you are short on. You only know what I have told you about me and have no idea how much I help others. You are allowed to post here for the same reason I am, there is no level system that I am aware of.
...
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: Anne Bonney on December 13, 2007, 03:58:08 PM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Sorry, you seem really pissed off, but I disagree with you. If everyone can bash parents/programmies, why can’t parents/programmies bash anti-program people? Why the double standard? I wasn’t any more hash with her as she was with me. I think it is a crime to spread misinformation and to misdirect parents because of some personal views or hang-ups. I think it is important to remember that there are kids who need help and there are places to help them (some good and some bad) to paint them all one color and misinform these parents is doing a disservice to the kids and probably results in more harm than good.
Listen, this is a survivors forum first and foremost as has been explained to you god knows how many times. The fact that you're a program shill and still tolerated here doesn't mean you're not gonna get a ration of shit when you post bullshit information, twist what people say, twist and distort stats and facts and in general spread disinformation.
You try and lump yourself in with "us" as if "we" are working towards some common goal. Trust me, we're not. Your goal is to keep programs alive and kicking, ours is to expose them for what they are (thought reform camps, behavior modification centers, mindrape mills) and shut them down.
If you have a kid that is so out of control that they need to be removed from the home (with proper diagnosis from qualified medical personnel) then it should be done in a medical facility under the direct supervision of a medical professional using proven methods and the patient needs to have access to due process throughout the entire course of treatment.
If you have a kid who you're worried about because of drugs, friends, changes in attitudes or any of hte other bullshit criteria used on those stupid program websites then get fucking creative!!! BE a goddamn parent and figure out what is going on with your kid and help them fix it. Quit your fucking job and take a trip while homeschooling them. Expose them to a different culture. Send them to live with a trusted aunt and uncle. Take a barefoot cruise around the Caribbean for a few weeks. Most of these places cost thousands of dollars so there's no reason in hell why something couldn't be done other than shipping them off to quack strangers who use methods derived from a known abusive cult.
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: Anne Bonney on December 13, 2007, 04:03:32 PM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Its not how long you have been on fornits, Anne, but what you know and how you use your knowledge to help others, both of which you are short on.
You have no idea how little you know.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Quote
You only know what I have told you about me and have no idea how much I help others. You are allowed to post here for the same reason I am, there is no level system that I am aware of.
No, that was more in response to your arrogance and insistence on using the word "we" to include yourself with anything that "we" actually do. See below.
Quote
If your only intention is to use fornits as a dumping ground for your anger and hatred then shame on you... many of us here are trying to make things better for the kids, you had your chance to straighten out and you blew it, lets try to help some other people out for a change.
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: TheWho on December 13, 2007, 04:08:49 PM
Quote
Listen, this is a survivors forum first and foremost as has been explained to you god knows how many times. The fact that you're a program shill and still tolerated here doesn't mean you're not gonna get a ration of shit when you post bullshit information, twist what people say, twist and distort stats and facts and in general spread disinformation.
You are wrong as usual, you just think you are more important than you really are. If it was just a survivors forum then it would be made clear to the rest of us who enter. You come on here and try to sell parents a rash of crap that isn’t true.. it is crap that is 30 years old, you and I both know that. You wouldn’t recognize an improvement if it benefitted your own family.
Quote
You try and lump yourself in with "us" as if "we" are working towards some common goal. Trust me, we're not. Your goal is to keep programs alive and kicking, ours is to expose them for what they are (thought reform camps, behavior modification centers, mindrape mills) and shut them down.
When I say “usâ€
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: Anonymous on December 13, 2007, 04:17:38 PM
Here's my straight face for ya :roll: considering NO information is allowed outside the walls of the building, host home cars or host homes, not all suicide attempts would be 'reported'. You would have to understand how the straight inc treatment model works first, then you would see more clearly. As the statement mentioned early on, it was an independently funded and limited research project, primarily focused on the actual police reports that mentioned suicide attempts at the building. However, one were filed by host parents traveling either to and from the building or inside their host homes. I find it very unbelievable that there were none in those venues, hence the disclaimer of being a limited research project. On a heavier note: There was however, a kid who killed himself in 2005 less than a year after graduating from that hellhole. :cry: :flame:
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: Anonymous on December 13, 2007, 04:21:13 PM
That should read; "none were filed", not one. Jeez. more :roll: :roll: sorry
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: Ursus on December 13, 2007, 04:24:24 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Here's my straight face for ya :roll: considering NO information is allowed outside the walls of the building, host home cars or host homes, not all suicide attempts would be 'reported'. You would have to understand how the straight inc treatment model works first, then you would see more clearly. As the statement mentioned early on, it was an independently funded and limited research project, primarily focused on the actual police reports that mentioned suicide attempts at the building. However, one were filed by host parents traveling either to and from the building or inside their host homes. I find it very unbelievable that there were none in those venues, hence the disclaimer of being a limited research project. On a heavier note: There was however, a kid who killed himself in 2005 less than a year after graduating from that hellhole. :cry: :flame:
Okay, third attempt to underscore that point -- repercussions post-program. Who, you keep ignoring this... And no, it is not despite the program, but because of the program.
Tell me, what LGAT did you participate in?
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: Anne Bonney on December 13, 2007, 04:59:41 PM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
You are wrong as usual, you just think you are more important than you really are.
Naw, I'm well aware of how insignificant I am and what I went through was to people like you, believe me.
Quote
If it was just a survivors forum then it would be made clear to the rest of us who enter.
I didn't say it was solely a survivors forum, but it absolutely is first and foremost. That's not ALL it is, but facts are...that's how it began, that's what its mainly populated by still. The fact that we tolerate you doesn't diminish that fact.
Quote
You come on here and try to sell parents a rash of crap that isn’t true.. it is crap that is 30 years old, you and I both know that.
AGAIN you put words in my mouth. I know no such thing. YOU think that.
Quote
You wouldn’t recognize an improvement if it benefitted your own family.
And you know this because..........?
Quote
When I say “usâ€
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: Anne Bonney on December 13, 2007, 05:07:21 PM
Quote from: ""Ursus""
Are you saying that suicide attempts are not worthy of any kind of consideration or monitoring? Seems to me they are certainly some kind of barometer on the deal that goes down there.
And I'd also like to hear just what your take is on "progress" down the road, so to speak. Given that most of these places claim to make a positive difference in your LIFE, isn't it a bit odd that once the gravy train is no longer functioning at peak capacity, gone also is the CONCERN.
Guess what? When kids try to function in the "real" world post-program, that's when a lot of the problems and coping deficiencies -- in many cases, brought on by the program in question -- begin to really show up. Is anybody bothering with monitoring this demographic? What about suicides and suicide attempt post-program, because of program?
Hyde School does zero "follow-up" beyond the incessant fund-raising spam that follows you from address to address. In fact, the spam never stops. Even in cases where Hyde faculty have assaulted and/or raped the kids in question, and the kids have left under the most acrimonious circumstances, the parents never stop receiving the infernal requests for monies. In one case I know of, even after the kid tried killing themselves post-program. Because of what happened to them in program. Hyde's response, concern? More fund-raising attempts.
Yes, Ursus......absolutely yes! That's one of the more insidious aspects of the places. Hell, I was in one of the more notorious hellholes...one that damn near everyone can agree was abusive, even IdiotBoy ...but....I would have sworn it saved my life for a while after getting out. My father sung STraight's praises for years and years after all the shit came out in the papers and even after Newton was run out of town on a rail. People just cannot fathom what fucking around with someone's psyche while its still developing does to a person. PTSD...shit, that sometimes takes years to manifest. I had no idea how badly I was damaged until I started questioning what happened and even then it wasn't until years after that that I was capable of understanding the depth and depravity of what they did and the sheer joy with which they did it....allthewhile patting themselves on the back for what a wonderful job they were doing in saving our youth.
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: Anne Bonney on December 13, 2007, 05:31:36 PM
Quote from: ""Ursus""
Quote from: ""psy""
...however, anybody who has been in one of these little cults knows full well that the damage done by these places does not lie in bullshit numbers, but in very real long term damage caused by the types of thought reform used.
I've said it before: I don't think you can quantify or even approximate the damage done by these places by any means practiced at the moment. No one bothers to do any long-term studies, but long-term studies are precisely what are needed given the kind of damage that takes place.
Do you really think industry insiders and apologists are going to do these kinds of studies? It is not in their financial best interests to touch this with a ten-foot pole. They might do an assessment whilst the kid is in program and maybe 1 year out. No further removed from exposure than that.
But much of the damage does not begin to percolate to the surface and become overtly evident 'till much later. It's like psychological asbestos. It takes time for some of the effects from exposure to show up, and by the time they do, you're pretty much fucked.
'Nother good'un.
:D
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: Anonymous on December 13, 2007, 05:59:39 PM
Mr. Who, why do you insist on personally attacking Anne Bonney and attributes as a mother? You accept the misdeeds of Psy and TSW; even offering up excuses for their behaviors when you have been reportedly wrongfully outed and when your private Fornits account has been manipulated by these guys. Do you simply have a problem with women? It seems you only personally attack women; like Anne and Deborah. It does wear a bit thin and is highly annoying.
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: Che Gookin on December 13, 2007, 06:28:20 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Mr. Who, why do you insist on personally attacking Anne Bonney and attributes as a mother? You accept the misdeeds of Psy and TSW; even offering up excuses for their behaviors when you have been reportedly wrongfully outed and when your private Fornits account has been manipulated by these guys. Do you simply have a problem with women? It seems you only personally attack women; like Anne and Deborah. It does wear a bit thin and is highly annoying.
That NAMBLA user title was most excellent.
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: Anonymous on December 13, 2007, 07:15:07 PM
This thread is three tons of ball stomp in a five-pound bag.
No new-to-this parent in the world can possibly read the last six pages and send their kids. Not one.
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: TheWho on December 13, 2007, 07:24:46 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Mr. Who, why do you insist on personally attacking Anne Bonney and attributes as a mother? You accept the misdeeds of Psy and TSW; even offering up excuses for their behaviors when you have been reportedly wrongfully outed and when your private Fornits account has been manipulated by these guys. Do you simply have a problem with women? It seems you only personally attack women; like Anne and Deborah. It does wear a bit thin and is highly annoying.
Very simple reason. I can have a discussion and a knock down drag out fight with psy and TSW without them getting bent out of shape and start name calling. Everytime Anne gets proven wrong or I piss her off she resorts to name calling. So I respond with the same sometimes.
...
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: Anne Bonney on December 13, 2007, 07:39:15 PM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Quote from: ""Guest""
Mr. Who, why do you insist on personally attacking Anne Bonney and attributes as a mother? You accept the misdeeds of Psy and TSW; even offering up excuses for their behaviors when you have been reportedly wrongfully outed and when your private Fornits account has been manipulated by these guys. Do you simply have a problem with women? It seems you only personally attack women; like Anne and Deborah. It does wear a bit thin and is highly annoying.
Very simple reason. I can have a discussion and a knock down drag out fight with psy and TSW without them getting bent out of shape and start name calling. Everytime Anne gets proven wrong or I piss her off she resorts to name calling. So I respond with the same sometimes.
...
First, where have you proven me wrong?
Second, I'm still waiting for the answer as to what I blew.
Third, I call you names whether I'm right OR wrong.
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: TheWho on December 13, 2007, 07:52:40 PM
Quote from: ""Ursus""
Quote from: ""Guest""
Here's my straight face for ya :roll: considering NO information is allowed outside the walls of the building, host home cars or host homes, not all suicide attempts would be 'reported'. You would have to understand how the straight inc treatment model works first, then you would see more clearly. As the statement mentioned early on, it was an independently funded and limited research project, primarily focused on the actual police reports that mentioned suicide attempts at the building. However, one were filed by host parents traveling either to and from the building or inside their host homes. I find it very unbelievable that there were none in those venues, hence the disclaimer of being a limited research project. On a heavier note: There was however, a kid who killed himself in 2005 less than a year after graduating from that hellhole. :cry: :flame:
Okay, third attempt to underscore that point -- repercussions post-program. Who, you keep ignoring this... And no, it is not despite the program, but because of the program.
Tell me, what LGAT did you participate in?
I am not ignoring it, I am not sure what you want me to say. Unless he/she left a note we could never trace the cause back to a specific event..problem with a girlfriend, boyfriend..problem at school, medication.. etc.
LGAT? Hmmm... I worked for a company who had the entire sales force flown in from around the world to attend a sales training meeting. The CEO had all the people wear fatigues and march to the conference center every morning before they could eat. Then there was a motivational speaker who would talk to them... this went on for 3 days. I was in training for taking over an engineering project at the time and sat in because I was curious. They were definitely motivated to sell after that day, I do remember. I dont recall any of them killing themselves afterwards if that is what you are getting at.
...
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: Che Gookin on December 13, 2007, 08:03:01 PM
Hard to believe they consider such training useful anymore. Whatever happened to rounding up all the boys and carting them off to a weekend of booze, strippers, and maybe even golf in Vegas?
Now that is some bonding and training.. All this wanker LGAT crap is pointless.
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: Anne Bonney on December 13, 2007, 08:05:49 PM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
LGAT? Hmmm... I worked for a company who had the entire sales force flown in from around the world to attend a sales training meeting. The CEO had all the people wear fatigues and march to the conference center every morning before they could eat. Then there was a motivational speaker who would talk to them... this went on for 3 days. I was in training for taking over an engineering project at the time and sat in because I was curious. They were definitely motivated to sell after that day, I do remember. I dont recall any of them killing themselves afterwards if that is what you are getting at.
Nope, we're talking about the one's associated with programs. Like this one...
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: Ursus on December 13, 2007, 08:21:19 PM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Quote from: ""Ursus""
Tell me, what LGAT did you participate in?
LGAT? Hmmm... I worked for a company who had the entire sales force flown in from around the world to attend a sales training meeting. The CEO had all the people wear fatigues and march to the conference center every morning before they could eat. Then there was a motivational speaker who would talk to them... this went on for 3 days. I was in training for taking over an engineering project at the time and sat in because I was curious. They were definitely motivated to sell after that day, I do remember. I dont recall any of them killing themselves afterwards if that is what you are getting at.
There were a number of companies that did use LGAT motivational training to get everyone in a more productive and useful state of mind (to the company, that is). I'm not sure how much it is still done these days, due to some of the excesses that occurred, not to mention the aftermath of lawsuits from people being forced to participate. Generally, the lower echelons -- especially sales force personnel -- were most affected.
So... which LGAT was it? Who were the "trainers?"
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: TheWho on December 13, 2007, 08:29:26 PM
Quote from: ""Che Gookin""
Hard to believe they consider such training useful anymore. Whatever happened to rounding up all the boys and carting them off to a weekend of booze, strippers, and maybe even golf in Vegas?
Now that is some bonding and training.. All this wanker LGAT crap is pointless.
Yeah, I remember that everyone was too wiped from the LGAT to go out afterwards like they usually did when they visited the states.. the sales never really increased, as I remember. At least when they held the blow outs in places like Vegas the sales force was motivated to sell and meet their quota so they could keep their jobs and be invited back next year!! The stories that would come out of those meetings became legends until next year.
...
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: TheWho on December 13, 2007, 08:32:13 PM
Quote from: ""Nihilanthic""
If I ever have to do LGAT shit for work Im going to beat the crap out of the facilitator after I ruin and shit on his little LGAT the entire time.
:D
I would wait until after your paycheck clears for that week.
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: Anonymous on December 13, 2007, 08:34:02 PM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Quote from: ""Ursus""
Quote from: ""Guest""
Here's my straight face for ya :roll: considering NO information is allowed outside the walls of the building, host home cars or host homes, not all suicide attempts would be 'reported'. You would have to understand how the straight inc treatment model works first, then you would see more clearly. As the statement mentioned early on, it was an independently funded and limited research project, primarily focused on the actual police reports that mentioned suicide attempts at the building. However, one were filed by host parents traveling either to and from the building or inside their host homes. I find it very unbelievable that there were none in those venues, hence the disclaimer of being a limited research project. On a heavier note: There was however, a kid who killed himself in 2005 less than a year after graduating from that hellhole. :cry: :flame:
Okay, third attempt to underscore that point -- repercussions post-program. Who, you keep ignoring this... And no, it is not despite the program, but because of the program.
Tell me, what LGAT did you participate in?
I am not ignoring it, I am not sure what you want me to say. Unless he/she left a note we could never trace the cause back to a specific event..problem with a girlfriend, boyfriend..problem at school, medication.. etc.
LGAT? Hmmm... I worked for a company who had the entire sales force flown in from around the world to attend a sales training meeting. The CEO had all the people wear fatigues and march to the conference center every morning before they could eat. Then there was a motivational speaker who would talk to them... this went on for 3 days. I was in training for taking over an engineering project at the time and sat in because I was curious. They were definitely motivated to sell after that day, I do remember. I dont recall any of them killing themselves afterwards if that is what you are getting at.
...
×
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: TheWho on December 13, 2007, 08:40:59 PM
Quote from: ""Anne Bonney""
Quote from: ""TheWho""
LGAT? Hmmm... I worked for a company who had the entire sales force flown in from around the world to attend a sales training meeting. The CEO had all the people wear fatigues and march to the conference center every morning before they could eat. Then there was a motivational speaker who would talk to them... this went on for 3 days. I was in training for taking over an engineering project at the time and sat in because I was curious. They were definitely motivated to sell after that day, I do remember. I dont recall any of them killing themselves afterwards if that is what you are getting at.
Nope, we're talking about the one's associated with programs. Like this one...
Sorry, I see the link is nospank…..I wouldn’t take what nospank has to say. They are definitely a cult like fringe group... if they are performing LGAT's to get people to stop spanking their kids good luck to them. We never spanked our children but I don’t believe in these cults thinking they can reach into people’s homes and tell them how to raise their children. Who do they think they are the government?
...
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: TheWho on December 13, 2007, 08:43:27 PM
Quote from: ""moshe""
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Quote from: ""Ursus""
Quote from: ""Guest""
Here's my straight face for ya :roll: considering NO information is allowed outside the walls of the building, host home cars or host homes, not all suicide attempts would be 'reported'. You would have to understand how the straight inc treatment model works first, then you would see more clearly. As the statement mentioned early on, it was an independently funded and limited research project, primarily focused on the actual police reports that mentioned suicide attempts at the building. However, one were filed by host parents traveling either to and from the building or inside their host homes. I find it very unbelievable that there were none in those venues, hence the disclaimer of being a limited research project. On a heavier note: There was however, a kid who killed himself in 2005 less than a year after graduating from that hellhole. :cry: :flame:
Okay, third attempt to underscore that point -- repercussions post-program. Who, you keep ignoring this... And no, it is not despite the program, but because of the program.
Tell me, what LGAT did you participate in?
I am not ignoring it, I am not sure what you want me to say. Unless he/she left a note we could never trace the cause back to a specific event..problem with a girlfriend, boyfriend..problem at school, medication.. etc.
LGAT? Hmmm... I worked for a company who had the entire sales force flown in from around the world to attend a sales training meeting. The CEO had all the people wear fatigues and march to the conference center every morning before they could eat. Then there was a motivational speaker who would talk to them... this went on for 3 days. I was in training for taking over an engineering project at the time and sat in because I was curious. They were definitely motivated to sell after that day, I do remember. I dont recall any of them killing themselves afterwards if that is what you are getting at.
...
×
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: psy on December 13, 2007, 09:12:26 PM
Quote from: ""Nihilanthic""
If I ever have to do LGAT shit for work Im going to beat the crap out of the facilitator after I ruin and shit on his little LGAT the entire time.
:D
OH.. bring copies of Margaret Singer's "Cults in Our Midst" to the seminar. That'll drive em batty. I promise you you won't have to do the seminar. ::roflmao:: ::roflmao:: ::roflmao::
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: Che Gookin on December 13, 2007, 09:27:26 PM
Bring a MAD magazine to an LGAT.. That will cause the inside of their little programmie brains to collapse.
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: Anonymous on December 13, 2007, 09:33:38 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
No new-to-this parent in the world can possibly read the last six pages and send their kids. Not one.
Indeed. Spammy bullshit and made-up stories after you got your ass kicked seriously won't help, Who.
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: TheWho on December 13, 2007, 09:45:59 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote from: ""Guest""
No new-to-this parent in the world can possibly read the last six pages and send their kids. Not one.
Indeed. Spammy bullshit and made-up stories after you got your ass kicked seriously won't help, Who.
Must be a fornits thing.
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: Anonymous on December 14, 2007, 01:12:08 AM
Quote from: ""moshe""
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Quote from: ""Ursus""
Quote from: ""Guest""
Here's my straight face for ya :roll: considering NO information is allowed outside the walls of the building, host home cars or host homes, not all suicide attempts would be 'reported'. You would have to understand how the straight inc treatment model works first, then you would see more clearly. As the statement mentioned early on, it was an independently funded and limited research project, primarily focused on the actual police reports that mentioned suicide attempts at the building. However, one were filed by host parents traveling either to and from the building or inside their host homes. I find it very unbelievable that there were none in those venues, hence the disclaimer of being a limited research project. On a heavier note: There was however, a kid who killed himself in 2005 less than a year after graduating from that hellhole. :cry: :flame:
Okay, third attempt to underscore that point -- repercussions post-program. Who, you keep ignoring this... And no, it is not despite the program, but because of the program.
Tell me, what LGAT did you participate in?
I am not ignoring it, I am not sure what you want me to say. Unless he/she left a note we could never trace the cause back to a specific event..problem with a girlfriend, boyfriend..problem at school, medication.. etc.
LGAT? Hmmm... I worked for a company who had the entire sales force flown in from around the world to attend a sales training meeting. The CEO had all the people wear fatigues and march to the conference center every morning before they could eat. Then there was a motivational speaker who would talk to them... this went on for 3 days. I was in training for taking over an engineering project at the time and sat in because I was curious. They were definitely motivated to sell after that day, I do remember. I dont recall any of them killing themselves afterwards if that is what you are getting at.
...
×
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: Anonymous on December 14, 2007, 03:40:32 AM
Quote from: ""Anne Bonney""
You have no idea how little you know.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Anne,
As flies to wanton boys are you to the trolls; they mock you for their sport. TSW is TheWho. Do you think an employed person has so much time on his hands? To be frank, these altercations with TheWho are tedious and unproductive. But take it from the horse's own mouth:
Quote from: ""Guest""
Mr. Who, why do you insist on personally attacking Anne Bonney and attributes as a mother? You accept the misdeeds of Psy and TSW; even offering up excuses for their behaviors when you have been reportedly wrongfully outed and when your private Fornits account has been manipulated by these guys. Do you simply have a problem with women? It seems you only personally attack women; like Anne and Deborah. It does wear a bit thin and is highly annoying.
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: Che Gookin on December 14, 2007, 04:05:59 AM
I'm employed therefore not TheWho.
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: Anonymous on December 14, 2007, 04:12:59 AM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Anne,
As flies to wanton boys are you to the trolls; they mock you for their sport. TSW is TheWho. Do you think an employed person has so much time on his hands? To be frank, these altercations with TheWho are tedious and unproductive. But take it from the horse's own mouth:
Quote from: ""Guest""
Mr. Who, why do you insist on personally attacking Anne Bonney and attributes as a mother? You accept the misdeeds of Psy and TSW; even offering up excuses for their behaviors when you have been reportedly wrongfully outed and when your private Fornits account has been manipulated by these guys. Do you simply have a problem with women? It seems you only personally attack women; like Anne and Deborah. It does wear a bit thin and is highly annoying.
Patronizing Anne like that is also tedious and unproductive. Only an inexperienced troll would confuse TSW with TheWho.
Take your flies and study harder at Hebrew school, wanton boy.
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: Anonymous on December 14, 2007, 04:34:52 AM
Anne,
Don't take my patronizing word for it, and don't take Fornits' either. Conduct your own investigations. You can start by asking yourself who submitted the final Who post below.
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Quote from: ""moshe""
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Quote from: ""Ursus""
Quote from: ""Guest""
Here's my straight face for ya :roll: considering NO information is allowed outside the walls of the building, host home cars or host homes, not all suicide attempts would be 'reported'. You would have to understand how the straight inc treatment model works first, then you would see more clearly. As the statement mentioned early on, it was an independently funded and limited research project, primarily focused on the actual police reports that mentioned suicide attempts at the building. However, one were filed by host parents traveling either to and from the building or inside their host homes. I find it very unbelievable that there were none in those venues, hence the disclaimer of being a limited research project. On a heavier note: There was however, a kid who killed himself in 2005 less than a year after graduating from that hellhole. :cry: :flame:
Okay, third attempt to underscore that point -- repercussions post-program. Who, you keep ignoring this... And no, it is not despite the program, but because of the program.
Tell me, what LGAT did you participate in?
I am not ignoring it, I am not sure what you want me to say. Unless he/she left a note we could never trace the cause back to a specific event..problem with a girlfriend, boyfriend..problem at school, medication.. etc.
LGAT? Hmmm... I worked for a company who had the entire sales force flown in from around the world to attend a sales training meeting. The CEO had all the people wear fatigues and march to the conference center every morning before they could eat. Then there was a motivational speaker who would talk to them... this went on for 3 days. I was in training for taking over an engineering project at the time and sat in because I was curious. They were definitely motivated to sell after that day, I do remember. I dont recall any of them killing themselves afterwards if that is what you are getting at.
...
×
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: Anonymous on December 14, 2007, 05:18:45 AM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Anne,
Don't take my patronizing word for it, and don't take Fornits' either. Conduct your own investigations. You can start by asking yourself who submitted the final Who post below.
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Quote from: ""moshe""
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Quote from: ""Ursus""
Quote from: ""Guest""
Here's my straight face for ya :roll: considering NO information is allowed outside the walls of the building, host home cars or host homes, not all suicide attempts would be 'reported'. You would have to understand how the straight inc treatment model works first, then you would see more clearly. As the statement mentioned early on, it was an independently funded and limited research project, primarily focused on the actual police reports that mentioned suicide attempts at the building. However, one were filed by host parents traveling either to and from the building or inside their host homes. I find it very unbelievable that there were none in those venues, hence the disclaimer of being a limited research project. On a heavier note: There was however, a kid who killed himself in 2005 less than a year after graduating from that hellhole. :cry: :flame:
Okay, third attempt to underscore that point -- repercussions post-program. Who, you keep ignoring this... And no, it is not despite the program, but because of the program.
Tell me, what LGAT did you participate in?
I am not ignoring it, I am not sure what you want me to say. Unless he/she left a note we could never trace the cause back to a specific event..problem with a girlfriend, boyfriend..problem at school, medication.. etc.
LGAT? Hmmm... I worked for a company who had the entire sales force flown in from around the world to attend a sales training meeting. The CEO had all the people wear fatigues and march to the conference center every morning before they could eat. Then there was a motivational speaker who would talk to them... this went on for 3 days. I was in training for taking over an engineering project at the time and sat in because I was curious. They were definitely motivated to sell after that day, I do remember. I dont recall any of them killing themselves afterwards if that is what you are getting at.
...
×
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: Anonymous on December 14, 2007, 05:21:10 AM
except for what Ursus wrote.
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: Che Gookin on December 14, 2007, 05:38:07 AM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote from: ""Guest""
Anne,
Don't take my patronizing word for it, and don't take Fornits' either. Conduct your own investigations. You can start by asking yourself who submitted the final Who post below.
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Quote from: ""moshe""
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Quote from: ""Ursus""
Quote from: ""Guest""
Here's my straight face for ya :roll: considering NO information is allowed outside the walls of the building, host home cars or host homes, not all suicide attempts would be 'reported'. You would have to understand how the straight inc treatment model works first, then you would see more clearly. As the statement mentioned early on, it was an independently funded and limited research project, primarily focused on the actual police reports that mentioned suicide attempts at the building. However, one were filed by host parents traveling either to and from the building or inside their host homes. I find it very unbelievable that there were none in those venues, hence the disclaimer of being a limited research project. On a heavier note: There was however, a kid who killed himself in 2005 less than a year after graduating from that hellhole. :cry: :flame:
Okay, third attempt to underscore that point -- repercussions post-program. Who, you keep ignoring this... And no, it is not despite the program, but because of the program.
Tell me, what LGAT did you participate in?
I am not ignoring it, I am not sure what you want me to say. Unless he/she left a note we could never trace the cause back to a specific event..problem with a girlfriend, boyfriend..problem at school, medication.. etc.
LGAT? Hmmm... I worked for a company who had the entire sales force flown in from around the world to attend a sales training meeting. The CEO had all the people wear fatigues and march to the conference center every morning before they could eat. Then there was a motivational speaker who would talk to them... this went on for 3 days. I was in training for taking over an engineering project at the time and sat in because I was curious. They were definitely motivated to sell after that day, I do remember. I dont recall any of them killing themselves afterwards if that is what you are getting at.
...
×
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: Anonymous on December 14, 2007, 06:21:16 AM
What your writing style lacks in quality is made up for in quantity.
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: Che Gookin on December 14, 2007, 06:24:47 AM
I thought the Hebrew added a nice touch.
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: Anonymous on December 14, 2007, 06:40:53 AM
mike was here
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: Oz girl on December 14, 2007, 06:59:46 AM
getting back to the idea of independence in producing any kind of literature/ art on this. i initially thought I could take a neutral view but the more i read and the more people I spoke to i realised this is nearly impossible. To me this is because incarceration without proper legal trial or representation is morally wrong and should have no place within western democracy. No one in favour of programs has been able to justify this except to say it was a way of preventing their child from getting into more trouble. The reasons why people send their kids to programs sometimes make sense so it seems a little simplistic to say it is only an option bad parents use. But no program seems to ever turn kids away for any reason. So few ask parents to keep their kid at home and ride it out. And no program it seems can justify why this is so. I Have also come across few if any programs which deal with a single specific issue. How can one place with one method deal with everything from learning disorders to anorexia? In the event that some kids are "saved" i just can not see how this can outweigh the extremely cavalier attitude that is taken to a kids mental and physical health by the industry as a whole. This coupled wit the fact that even the "good guys" like industry stamp of approval NATSAP have chequred pasts and members with death counts makes it impossible to objectively argue for any benefits.
Just my 2 cents
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: TheWho on December 14, 2007, 11:44:17 AM
Quote
getting back to the idea of independence in producing any kind of literature/ art on this. i initially thought I could take a neutral view but the more i read and the more people I spoke to i realised this is nearly impossible. To me this is because incarceration without proper legal trial or representation is morally wrong and should have no place within western democracy. No one in favour of programs has been able to justify this except to say it was a way of preventing their child from getting into more trouble. The reasons why people send their kids to programs sometimes make sense so it seems a little simplistic to say it is only an option bad parents use.
We need to define incarceration. Children are grounded and forced to stay within the confines of their house for weeks sometimes without legal representation. Some of the boot camps are lock down facilities where TBS’s can provide plenty of freedom so there is a wide range to define.
Quote
But no program seems to ever turn kids away for any reason. So few ask parents to keep their kid at home and ride it out. And no program it seems can justify why this is so.
There are programs which have very strict admission requirements. Within the group at SUWS there were 5 kids that applied to ASR and only 2 got in. One went to another school and the 2 others ended up going home.
Quote
I Have also come across few if any programs which deal with a single specific issue. How can one place with one method deal with everything from learning disorders to anorexia? In the event that some kids are "saved" i just can not see how this can outweigh the extremely cavalier attitude that is taken to a kids mental and physical health by the industry as a whole. This coupled wit the fact that even the "good guys" like industry stamp of approval NATSAP have chequred pasts and members with death counts makes it impossible to objectively argue for any benefits.
Good point, This is a big issue for me also. The schools should do a better job screening the kids for acceptance. I think as time goes on we will see more specialty schools where each one would specialize in very specific areas and have models dedicated to working those issues.
...
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: Botched Programming on December 14, 2007, 11:58:36 AM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
There are programs which have very strict admission requirements. Within the group at SUWS there were 5 kids that applied to ASR and only 2 got in. One went to another school and the 2 others ended up going home.
...
Strict requirements. (How big is your bank account)
Is it just possible that the reason the kids were turned away is because the parents financial status?
You know programs have big hands that go deep in the parents pockets.
It's just like TV evangelist asking people how much they love the lord, then passing the plate and telling them to give until it hurts.
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: Anne Bonney on December 14, 2007, 12:07:18 PM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
We need to define incarceration. Children are grounded and forced to stay within the confines of their house for weeks sometimes without legal representation. Some of the boot camps are lock down facilities where TBS’s can provide plenty of freedom so there is a wide range to define.
Being grounded is not the same thing as being in a program. You have communication with your family at least. Being grounded is also not the same thing as being in jail, but in jail there is due process. If a child is removed from the home to enter a TBS why should it be any different?
The TBSs that aren't 'lock down' aren't really any less restrictive. Exit Plans are excellent for keeping kids there 'willingly'. Their choice is to either stay with the program or be out on the streets alone. Nice.
Quote
There are programs which have very strict admission requirements. Within the group at SUWS there were 5 kids that applied to ASR and only 2 got in. One went to another school and the 2 others ended up going home.
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Quote
Good point, This is a big issue for me also. The schools should do a better job screening the kids for acceptance. I think as time goes on we will see more specialty schools where each one would specialize in very specific areas and have models dedicated to working those issues.
Yep, the therapeutic community/positive peer pressure model. Same one used at Synanon. Same one used at the Seed. Same one used at Straight. Same one used at WWASPS. Same on used at Aspen Ed programs.
Same shit, slightly different wrapper.
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: TheWho on December 14, 2007, 12:08:55 PM
Quote from: ""Botched Programming""
Quote from: ""TheWho""
There are programs which have very strict admission requirements. Within the group at SUWS there were 5 kids that applied to ASR and only 2 got in. One went to another school and the 2 others ended up going home.
...
Strict requirements. (How big is your bank account)
Is it just possible that the reason the kids were turned away is because the parents financial status?
You know programs have big hands that go deep in the parents pockets.
It's just like TV evangelist asking people how much they love the lord, then passing the plate and telling them to give until it hurts.
With one of the kids it might had been the reason. I dont think the family was very well off and would have had to finance most if not all of it. The others were definitely turned down for other reasons..... I believe one was a flight risk and ended up going to a place in Maine.
...
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: Anne Bonney on December 14, 2007, 12:09:00 PM
Quote from: ""Botched Programming""
Quote from: ""TheWho""
There are programs which have very strict admission requirements. Within the group at SUWS there were 5 kids that applied to ASR and only 2 got in. One went to another school and the 2 others ended up going home.
...
Strict requirements. (How big is your bank account)
Is it just possible that the reason the kids were turned away is because the parents financial status?
You know programs have big hands that go deep in the parents pockets.
It's just like TV evangelist asking people how much they love the lord, then passing the plate and telling them to give until it hurts.
:tup: :tup:
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: Botched Programming on December 14, 2007, 12:21:24 PM
Just a couple interesting points:
(1) The average cost of tuition is in the ball park of 50K a year. (2) The average blue collar worker if lucky may make 50k a year. (3) Programs do not have a "Money Back Guarantee" (4) Licensed professionals such as therapist can be sued for malpractice. (5) You can not sue a program for malpractice when they screw up a kids mind.
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: TheWho on December 14, 2007, 12:24:06 PM
Quote
Yep, the therapeutic community/positive peer pressure model. Same one used at Synanon. Same one used at the Seed. Same one used at Straight. Same one used at WWASPS. Same on used at Aspen Ed programs.
Same shit, slightly different wrapper.
What OzGirl was talking about was a different school for kids with different issues. Schools now have children with anorexia in with kids who are cutters or having learning issues. The question was does the school effectively treat both problems.
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: Anne Bonney on December 14, 2007, 12:28:07 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
What OzGirl was talking about was a different school for kids with different issues. Schools now have children with anorexia in with kids who are cutters or having learning issues.
Yeah, I got that. It was the same way 20 years ago. There were supposed "overeaters", "bulimics" and "anorexics" mixed in with all of us "addicts" in Straight. None of this is really new. At all.
Quote
The question was does the school effectively treat both problems.
They don't effectively "treat" anything.
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: TheWho on December 14, 2007, 01:07:53 PM
Quote from: ""Anne Bonney""
Quote from: ""Guest""
What OzGirl was talking about was a different school for kids with different issues. Schools now have children with anorexia in with kids who are cutters or having learning issues.
Yeah, I got that. It was the same way 20 years ago. There were supposed "overeaters", "bulimics" and "anorexics" mixed in with all of us "addicts" in Straight. None of this is really new. At all.
So it seems as far as lumping many kids with different problems together, we agree this is probably least desirable. It would be more effective and better for the kids if they had a model dedicated to each problem.
Quote
The question was does the school effectively treat both problems.
They don't effectively "treat" anything.
How do you know this? What do you base this conclusion on?
...
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: Anonymous on December 14, 2007, 01:12:12 PM
Round and round we go..
:roll: :roll: ::blah::
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: psy on December 15, 2007, 11:13:33 AM
double
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: psy on December 15, 2007, 11:13:56 AM
Quote from: ""Eliscu2""
Quote from: ""Che Gookin""
I thought the Hebrew added a nice touch.
Quote
×
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: Anonymous on December 15, 2007, 11:49:25 AM
Quote
×
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: Anonymous on December 15, 2007, 11:55:42 AM
It's the fucking Tower of Babble. :rofl:
Title: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: psy on December 15, 2007, 01:45:37 PM
Quote from: ""Eliscu2""
Quote from: ""Che Gookin""
I thought the Hebrew added a nice touch.
Quote
×
Title: Re: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: The Fornits on January 19, 2008, 08:43:44 AM
bump
Title: Re: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: Froderik on January 19, 2008, 10:43:36 AM
I'm in disbelief that someone bumped this thread.
Title: Re: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: Anonymous on January 20, 2008, 10:55:04 AM
the first 2 pages of this thread are very good
Title: Re: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: psy on January 20, 2008, 11:08:10 AM
Quote from: "dori"
the first 2 pages of this thread are very good
Yup. Sometimes threads get derailed, then somebody puts it back on topic. It tends to happen an unmoderated forum. It's left to the users to sort the wheat from the chaff.
Title: Re: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: Anonymous on January 20, 2008, 08:31:17 PM
Psy, remember the conversation we had on YIM about how much money you were raking in off the free ads you got to place? From all the "suckers" who thought you were going to spend that money on doing something good? If you don't let it rest, I will post that conversation. The next move is up to you Psy.
Title: Re: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: Froderik on January 20, 2008, 09:19:42 PM
Quote from: "dori"
the first 2 pages of this thread are very good
Well then the person who bumped it shoulda quoted something from those pages or something, y'know?
Title: Re: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: psy on January 20, 2008, 09:27:27 PM
Quote from: "Guest"
Psy, remember the conversation we had on YIM about how much money you were raking in off the free ads you got to place? From all the "suckers" who thought you were going to spend that money on doing something good? If you don't let it rest, I will post that conversation. The next move is up to you Psy.
Right.. okey dokey. You post whatever you got, then i'll post a bank statement as well as scanned reciepts. I'll also consider suing you for defamation since my full name is known to everybody here. Che can also attest to the amount of money I spent. Give you a clue: it was way more than what I got in donations.
Also, consider that no money on this site goes to me at all. Ginger gets anything off the ads here. Go away and stop bothering me....
Title: Re: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: Anonymous on January 20, 2008, 09:39:29 PM
Quote from: "psy"
Quote from: "Guest"
Psy, remember the conversation we had on YIM about how much money you were raking in off the free ads you got to place? From all the "suckers" who thought you were going to spend that money on doing something good? If you don't let it rest, I will post that conversation. The next move is up to you Psy.
Right.. okey dokey. You post whatever you got, then i'll post a bank statement as well as scanned reciepts. I'll also consider suing you for defamation since my full name is known to everybody here. Che can also attest to the amount of money I spent. Give you a clue: it was way more than what I got in donations.
Also, consider that no money on this site goes to me at all. Ginger gets anything off the ads here. Go away and stop bothering me....
Look. We both know what you say behind the scenes. The part about suing me is a good touch. It makes you appear outraged and more believable. I am sure your fans and those you have scammed believe you, but we both know better, don't we? I know how much money you raised, and how much you spent. I am probably not as good as you at fabricating fake bank statements, though. That's what you told me you could do if I ever said anything, so why am I not surprised to see that? You are too predictable Psy, time to get a new act.
Title: Re: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: Anonymous on January 20, 2008, 09:57:36 PM
^^^^ TheWho. Comma placement says it all.
Title: Re: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: psy on January 20, 2008, 10:02:24 PM
Quote from: "A Voice from Nowhere"
Quote from: "psy"
Quote from: "Guest"
Psy, remember the conversation we had on YIM about how much money you were raking in off the free ads you got to place? From all the "suckers" who thought you were going to spend that money on doing something good? If you don't let it rest, I will post that conversation. The next move is up to you Psy.
Right.. okey dokey. You post whatever you got, then i'll post a bank statement as well as scanned reciepts. I'll also consider suing you for defamation since my full name is known to everybody here. Che can also attest to the amount of money I spent. Give you a clue: it was way more than what I got in donations.
Also, consider that no money on this site goes to me at all. Ginger gets anything off the ads here. Go away and stop bothering me....
Look. We both know what you say behind the scenes. The part about suing me is a good touch. It makes you appear outraged and more believable. I am sure your fans and those you have scammed believe you, but we both know better, don't we? I know how much money you raised, and how much you spent. I am probably not as good as you at fabricating fake bank statements, though. That's what you told me you could do if I ever said anything, so why am I not surprised to see that? You are too predictable Psy, time to get a new act.
Post the "chats" please or quit ranting...
Title: Re: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: Froderik on January 20, 2008, 10:47:25 PM
Why even give this fucking tool the satisfaction, psy?
Title: Re: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: Anonymous on January 20, 2008, 11:08:39 PM
Because he has nothing better to do. Fornits is his life, how pathetic is that?
Title: Re: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: Anne Bonney on March 06, 2008, 02:37:02 PM
Quote from: "Guest"
Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "psy"
...however, anybody who has been in one of these little cults knows full well that the damage done by these places does not lie in bullshit numbers, but in very real long term damage caused by the types of thought reform used.
I've said it before: I don't think you can quantify or even approximate the damage done by these places by any means practiced at the moment. No one bothers to do any long-term studies, but long-term studies are precisely what are needed given the kind of damage that takes place.
Do you really think industry insiders and apologists are going to do these kinds of studies? It is not in their financial best interests to touch this with a ten-foot pole. They might do an assessment whilst the kid is in program and maybe 1 year out. No further removed from exposure than that.
But much of the damage does not begin to percolate to the surface and become overtly evident 'till much later. It's like psychological asbestos. It takes time for some of the effects from exposure to show up, and by the time they do, you're pretty much fucked.
You're absolutely right about this, it took 20 years for me to give it more than a second thought...
Title: Re: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: psy on September 16, 2008, 03:56:32 PM
bump
Title: Re: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: Anonymous on September 16, 2008, 07:25:16 PM
Quote from: "Antigen"
Quote from: ""TheWho""
If [5% suicide attempt] is in fact true.... what is it telling us? If these same group of kids never attended a program would the death rate increase to 1 out of 5? How do we know?
Yes, it's pretty close to true based on the best available calculation of the number of kids in Synanon/Stepcraft/LGAT type placements hashed against the number of reported suicide attempts/completions. No the rate would not go up w/o the program. This becomes obvious to anyone w/ an attention span longer than that of a cocker spaniel puppy once we factor in that there is no significant difference in terms of actual dysfunction between the unfortunate souls who receive 'help' from your coven and those who, blessedly, escape your benevolence.
Quote
If I told you another fact that 51% of people who undergo chemo therapy die within 5 years. How do we react to this? Should we ban people from having chemo therapy or is there some information missing? Is chemo causing their deaths? ...
Yes. According to a growing number of medical professionals, chemo and other heroic medical procedures are shamefully over-prescribed. While that particular practice should not be banned because, in some cases and based on hard scientific data, it passes the risk/benefit test, it certainly should not be used so often as it is.
This is not the case with your brand of snake oil. Scientists do not hold hands at the end of a seminar and say "I de believe in science! I do! I do!" They may be somewhat biased and all too often let that get the best of them. But, at the end of the day, they publish their data, their methods, their conclusions and their case studies for review by the public and their peers and then they direct themselves accordingly.
:jerry:
Bump
Title: Re: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: psy on March 24, 2010, 10:20:07 PM
one of my fave topics ... bump
Title: Re: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: Anne Bonney on March 25, 2010, 11:11:34 AM
Quote from: "psy"
What I'm reading (http://http://www.google.com/search?as_q=willful+suspension+of+disbelief+-Modest-Mouse)
Ginger mentioned this to me when we were talking.
Quote
Maintaining a believing attitude is a very human thing to do, especially when the alternative requires giving up something even more important to an individual than rationality. A believing attitude basically requires cultivating what is known as the "willful suspension of disbelief". This means that people will see what they want to see, and will ignore or minimize those facts that would lead to an opposite conclusion.
I don’t want to imply that this sort of behavior applies only to Christians, or even only to religious people. I think that many a scientist, while trying to sustain a pet theory, has applied the willful suspension of disbelief and ignored uncomfortable facts that might point to a differing conclusion. It is human to do this.
Nevertheless, ignoring the plain facts is stupid, IMO. Pride should not get in the way of the truth. This could be true of TheWho or it could be true of me as he would surely accuse me, however, anybody who has been in one of these little cults knows full well that the damage done by these places does not lie in bullshit numbers, but in very real long term damage caused by the types of thought reform used. He's pushing an irrelevant point. How many suicides aren't reported. I got more than one on my video tape and evidence of a bunch more... How does six months on average sound with a population of about 20 sound?
discuss
This was a really good one.
Title: Re: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: Anne Bonney on March 25, 2010, 02:46:16 PM
Quote from: "Oz girl"
getting back to the idea of independence in producing any kind of literature/ art on this. i initially thought I could take a neutral view but the more i read and the more people I spoke to i realised this is nearly impossible. To me this is because incarceration without proper legal trial or representation is morally wrong and should have no place within western democracy. No one in favour of programs has been able to justify this except to say it was a way of preventing their child from getting into more trouble. The reasons why people send their kids to programs sometimes make sense so it seems a little simplistic to say it is only an option bad parents use. But no program seems to ever turn kids away for any reason. So few ask parents to keep their kid at home and ride it out. And no program it seems can justify why this is so. I Have also come across few if any programs which deal with a single specific issue. How can one place with one method deal with everything from learning disorders to anorexia? In the event that some kids are "saved" i just can not see how this can outweigh the extremely cavalier attitude that is taken to a kids mental and physical health by the industry as a whole. This coupled wit the fact that even the "good guys" like industry stamp of approval NATSAP have chequred pasts and members with death counts makes it impossible to objectively argue for any benefits.
Just my 2 cents
:bump:
Title: Re: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: DannyB II on March 25, 2010, 10:18:40 PM
I was reading this thread a rather interesting one at that and one thing keeps jumping out at me. What if????? What if all the programs, schools, centers..ect... were all shut down today, banished for life. There will be no more modalities of the kind we have seen, everything will be wiped clean, were starting over. You have one year to come up with your thought and action.
There are 3 things that are existing you must cover in your idea.
1. The children that have been released due to the programs being closed need to be indoctrinated back into society. 2.Parents/Guardians have to be managed accordingly due to their child coming back, some did not want the responsibility to begin with others were intimidated by their child while others were hoodwinked by recruiters/programs. Then some just bought the whole package. 3. Developing a strategy for dealing with this still possibly troubled child along with parents.
I am not assuming their is anything to be done in any of these 3 situations, I just felt it made sense their would be some work. I'm almost of the opinion this whole ball of muck was made up in some quackhouse to make money, (I mean from the beginning with no thought of empathy towards helping anyone just pure capitalism) yeah some guy was sitting around going hmmmm....got all these junkies over here and if I can find a place to house them for $15,000.00 a year, well I can make some money. Off and running they were, all the way in 45 yrs to these grandiose names like such n such Academy that have these new fangle ideas of running around outside in your britches chasing snakes, this will definitely fix your son. I thought this would generate more conversation and you would be helping me out with this nagging thought of well "What Then". There are literally what half to a million kids in treatment through out the United States, what would happen to them. Danny P.S. These was a test-tube to generate more ideas for this basic lab test. :shamrock:
Title: Re: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: Oz girl on March 26, 2010, 12:19:01 AM
I can answer this danny. The US would have to deal with delinquent/drug taking/rabble rousing/mentally ill/insert random ailment here kids in the same way that Britain, most of europe, Australia and New Zealand and any latin american country does. All of these countries have kids and families struggling through adolescence and mostly coming out the other end OK. When you also consider that the sheer cost of even a bargain basement program like WWASP means that the kids are by default mostly middle class it further weakens the pro program argument as adolescent middle class "rebels" from most parts of the world are statistically the ones least likely to fall through the cracks. It just sometimes means natural consequences are a little more real. IE if you get expellled from your posh private school and your parents cant get you in anywwhere else, you go to a public one. If you dick around taking drugs when you should be studying and get really shit grades you either have to repeat year 12 or you dont get into university right from school. So you either work for a couple of years and apply after 21 or you decide higher education is not for you. Either way our life is not eternally ruined.
Granted there are some things that make it harder for American families, like zero tolerance policing and in some states hysterical sex laws that put kids on sex registers for pretty benign behaviors, but these did not always exist and can be changed if enough people do something.
To people who say a program was the only choice I liken programs to mobile or smart phones. It genuinely feels to me like I cant live without my smartphone. But for the first 20 or so years of my life i did great without it. If it were taken away I can still be reached by skype, im and at 3 email addresses. So while it feels to me like I cant in actual fact I can and there are people and places in the world where the thing is completely unnecessary.
Title: Re: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: Oz girl on March 26, 2010, 03:49:38 AM
Sorry to post twice, Danny mentioned something about therapy optiond for kids coming out of programs. This is imagine is quite a conundrum. GIven that some kids in programs are there due to genuine existing problems and then some others develop issues because of the trauma they suffered, id guess many do need some form of proper effective treatment. But many have spoken of being put off by the very idea of therapy because of their horrible experiences.
Those who read Julia scheeres Jesus Camp may be familiar with this. The Brother David became depressed and was self harming(probably because his asshole dad would regularly beat the crap out of him) His parents were more interested in getting rid of "the problem" than helping their son and sent him to be punished at escuele caribe & his sister only began to become rebellious when her only household ally was banished so she was sent there as well. She does not say whetner he got help for his initial symptoms when he left and he died in a car accident at 20 so nobody can ask, but she mentioned feelings consistent with pTSD after escuele caribe. S
Title: Re: willful suspension of disbelief
Post by: DannyB II on March 27, 2010, 02:10:03 PM
RE: willful suspension of disbelief
New postby Oz girl » Yesterday, 00:19 I can answer this danny. The US would have to deal with delinquent/drug taking/rabble rousing/mentally ill/insert random ailment here kids in the same way that Britain, most of europe, Australia and New Zealand and any latin american country does. All of these countries have kids and families struggling through adolescence and mostly coming out the other end OK. When you also consider that the sheer cost of even a bargain basement program like WWASP means that the kids are by default mostly middle class it further weakens the pro program argument as adolescent middle class "rebels" from most parts of the world are statistically the ones least likely to fall through the cracks. It just sometimes means natural consequences are a little more real. IE if you get expellled from your posh private school and your parents cant get you in anywwhere else, you go to a public one. If you dick around taking drugs when you should be studying and get really shit grades you either have to repeat year 12 or you dont get into university right from school. So you either work for a couple of years and apply after 21 or you decide higher education is not for you. Either way our life is not eternally ruined.
Granted there are some things that make it harder for American families, like zero tolerance policing and in some states hysterical sex laws that put kids on sex registers for pretty benign behaviors, but these did not always exist and can be changed if enough people do something.
To people who say a program was the only choice I liken programs to mobile or smart phones. It genuinely feels to me like I cant live without my smartphone. But for the first 20 or so years of my life i did great without it. If it were taken away I can still be reached by skype, im and at 3 email addresses. So while it feels to me like I cant in actual fact I can and there are people and places in the world where the thing is completely unnecessary.
User avatar Oz girl
Re: willful suspension of disbelief
New postby Oz girl » Yesterday, 03:49 Sorry to post twice, Danny mentioned something about therapy optiond for kids coming out of programs. This is imagine is quite a conundrum. GIven that some kids in programs are there due to genuine existing problems and then some others develop issues because of the trauma they suffered, id guess many do need some form of proper effective treatment. But many have spoken of being put off by the very idea of therapy because of their horrible experiences.
Those who read Julia scheeres Jesus Camp may be familiar with this. The Brother David became depressed and was self harming(probably because his asshole dad would regularly beat the crap out of him) His parents were more interested in getting rid of "the problem" than helping their son and sent him to be punished at escuele caribe & his sister only began to become rebellious when her only household ally was banished so she was sent there as well. She does not say whetner he got help for his initial symptoms when he left and he died in a car accident at 20 so nobody can ask, but she mentioned feelings consistent with pTSD after escuele caribe. S
:shamrock: :shamrock:
Man thanks a lot for the info OZ, Was kinda hoping for more feed back but, 1.) I'm not very liked right now. 2.) Really not very liked right now or ever. 3.) I guess it is to much to consider since it is idealistic. Well folks I still think this could have been a good conversation, Yeahhhhh maybe another time....lol.
Oz, Yes America is a much different animal when considering helping their children. I believe the intent is sincere but then the Insurance industries get involved, then big Pharma, Corporations start poking around for financial advantages and before ya know it, capitalism is rocking and who gives a crap about the kids anymore, there just a means to justify a end. I was just saying if all this came to a end today, what happens with the kids/parents/so forth and how do we deal with the void. There will be a void, a open wound how do we treat it, "Wilfull suspension of Disbelief". Danny