Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Anonymous on December 12, 2007, 10:48:38 AM
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My question is to program parents (including program parents who are now against their program, and who had their offspring institutionalized without their go ahead)
What level of education have you attained?
What was your major?
What do you do for a living?
I am curious if there is any commonality.
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from what i saw at HLA, most parents were liberal arts college grads, suburban middle-class, many with their own small bussinesses. There were also quite a few upper-class families, i wont mention specifics, but many parents were c.e.o's or were on the boards of big hotel chains, food companies, designer labels, banks, international shipping and real estate companies.
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I am curious if there is any commonality.
Yes, they all hate their kids sufficiently to give up completely and throw them to wolves at places like HLA. That's the common denominator.
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from what i saw at HLA, most parents were liberal arts college grads, suburban middle-class, many with their own small bussinesses. There were also quite a few upper-class families, i wont mention specifics, but many parents were c.e.o's or were on the boards of big hotel chains, food companies, designer labels, banks, international shipping and real estate companies.
Now that you picked up on this, it will not amaze you that these are the parents that the program's salesmen target. This way they can use the line...."What kind of price tag can you put on your child's life."[/color]
This just goes to show that it's not about helping the kids, it's about the programs getting their money grubbing hands as deep in the parents pockets as they can.
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from what i saw at HLA, most parents were liberal arts college grads, suburban middle-class, many with their own small bussinesses. There were also quite a few upper-class families, i wont mention specifics, but many parents were c.e.o's or were on the boards of big hotel chains, food companies, designer labels, banks, international shipping and real estate companies.
Now that you picked up on this, it will not amaze you that these are the parents that the program's salesmen target. This way they can use the line...."What kind of price tag can you put on your child's life."[/color]
I've always thought that the high price tags of program are a "guilt" self-punishing mechanism for the parents. They feel "guilty" that they are abandoning and destroying their kids (they're aware of this at a certain level) so they use the high money expenditure to punish themselves for their transgression, thusly absolving themselves of the guilt.
Also, if they are spending a great deal of money on a program they can tell themselves they are sacrificing for their kids. This helps them hide the reality of their abuse from themselves
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Any of you parents artists, or blue collar workers? Own a bar or anything?
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I've always thought that the high price tags of program are a "guilt" self-punishing mechanism for the parents. They feel "guilty" that they are abandoning and destroying their kids (they're aware of this at a certain level) so they use the high money expenditure to punish themselves for their transgression, thusly absolving themselves of the guilt.
Also, if they are spending a great deal of money on a program they can tell themselves they are sacrificing for their kids. This helps them hide the reality of their abuse from themselves
+666 insightful. This explains quite a bit of it.
Combine the above with "It's expensive, so it must be good", "your kid will DIE if he doesn't get HELP NOW, so you have to PAY OR ELSE", and the "Oh, we sent him to a posh school for kids like him, very expensive" factors, and you get a pretty cohesive picture.
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from what i saw at HLA, most parents were liberal arts college grads, suburban middle-class, many with their own small bussinesses. There were also quite a few upper-class families, i wont mention specifics, but many parents were c.e.o's or were on the boards of big hotel chains, food companies, designer labels, banks, international shipping and real estate companies.
Now that you picked up on this, it will not amaze you that these are the parents that the program's salesmen target. This way they can use the line...."What kind of price tag can you put on your child's life."[/color]
I've always thought that the high price tags of program are a "guilt" self-punishing mechanism for the parents. They feel "guilty" that they are abandoning and destroying their kids (they're aware of this at a certain level) so they use the high money expenditure to punish themselves for their transgression, thusly absolving themselves of the guilt.
Also, if they are spending a great deal of money on a program they can tell themselves they are sacrificing for their kids. This helps them hide the reality of their abuse from themselves
Nah, I can tell you from experience that the high price tag just comes with the territory. Most parents don’t harbor any excessive guilt for their child entering a program, no more than say if their child were having kidney problems and knowing it was inherited from them. Most of the parents have other children who are doing well so the cause isn’t necessarily something they did or the way the child was raised.
Parents don’t get a great sense of relief when they spend all that money for college either, many times it is a great sacrifice. There wouldn’t be any guilt of transgressions because the better the child does academically the more expensive the school typically is that he gets accepted to. So it seems to work against the original logic.
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Which pulse do you have your finger on? The parents posting at ST range from sadists who get off on their kids getting "hwat they deserve" to extreme guilt and remorse. Some to the point of taking medication to deal with the extreme anxiety they experience due to internal conficit caused by acting against everything they know and feel is right.
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My question is to program parents (including program parents who are now against their program, and who had their offspring institutionalized without their go ahead)
What level of education have you attained?
What was your major?
What do you do for a living?
I am curious if there is any commonality.
Dad-Dentist (doesn't every dental office subscribe to Sunset Magazine)
Step-Mom-Elementary School Principal (Probably knew an Ed Con)
Mother-Bar Owner (selfish, didn't care where I ended up)
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Which pulse do you have your finger on? The parents posting at ST range from sadists who get off on their kids getting "hwat they deserve" to extreme guilt and remorse. Some to the point of taking medication to deal with the extreme anxiety they experience due to internal conficit caused by acting against everything they know and feel is right.
Yeah, it is very difficult when your child goes away for the first time or for an extended period of time, but after the parents start seeing the results (after the first visit or two), most of these initial emotions go away.
The worry and guilt just go hand in hand with parenting. Mothers worry when their child goes away on their first ski trip or if you remember or partook in your junior or senior year study overseas exchange program, your parents worried a lot then too.
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Any of you parents artists, or blue collar workers? Own a bar or anything?
Yes,why?
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Any of you parents artists, or blue collar workers? Own a bar or anything?
Yes,why?
Are you describing yourself? Are you an artist?
I am curious about the sort of lifestyle and environment program parents habituate. I wonder if there is a continuity of profession an what implications that has on the program parents psychological make-up.
I'm not explaining this well cause i was up all night. But that's basically it
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It's easier to say who won't.
I always thought that anyone involved in education would be right out for obvious reasons, but apparently there are teachers dumb and sadistic enough.
I imagine that people entrenched in bureaucracy are unlikely to send their kids because they know its limitations; any organization able to dodge regulations is instantly suspect. This includes pretty much everyone in federal law enforcement (although local smacktard yokels are more likely to do it). Of course anyone in government these days has at least heard of the GAO chainraping going on.
Anyone with any experience dealing with cults will just LOL.
Anyone whose job it is to separate wheat from chaff in, say, purchasing or contracts (and who's competent), will instantly see everything wrong with the program's contracts and laugh in incredulity.
Basically, anyone whose position necessitates the ability to see through bullshit- this does not include most CEOs- will take one look at this shit and smack themselves for almost doing something incredibly stupid.
Similarly, anyone with truly complex jobs- advanced scientists, computer programmers, mechanical engineers- will (hopefully) work over the place logically and come to inevitable, horrifying conclusions, unless they've been dipped in hard-authoritarian bullshit from an early age.
As for who will...
Paradoxically, people whose job it is to conflate truth and fiction- used car salesmen, etc- will be more likely to buy into it, unless they are keen enough not to believe their own crap.
Celebrities are highly likely to send their kids just to keep them out of the public eye; since this condition also causes emotional problems in themselves and their kids, they are prime bait for hucksters purporting a cure.
Extremely religious types are likely to get involved. This is where shitholes like Love in Action make their money.
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I am curious if there is any commonality.
Yes, they all hate their kids sufficiently to give up completely and throw them to wolves at places like HLA. That's the common denominator.
Thank you, good answer! :evil:
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Any of you parents artists, or blue collar workers? Own a bar or anything?
Yes,why?
Are you describing yourself? Are you an artist?
I am curious about the sort of lifestyle and environment program parents habituate. I wonder if there is a continuity of profession an what implications that has on the program parents psychological make-up.
I'm not explaining this well cause i was up all night. But that's basically it
I fucking HATE people who stay up all night only to attempt to conduct some STUPID survey about program parents. You should kill yourself.
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Any of you parents artists, or blue collar workers? Own a bar or anything?
Yes,why?
Are you describing yourself? Are you an artist?
I am curious about the sort of lifestyle and environment program parents habituate. I wonder if there is a continuity of profession an what implications that has on the program parents psychological make-up.
I'm not explaining this well cause i was up all night. But that's basically it
I was talking about my parents. I am from a blue collar family. My mom is assistant manager at a national restaurant chain and my dad is a truck driver.
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I forgot to mention that in about a quarter of the cases at hidden lake, the parents were divorced, and one of the parents had serious drug or alchohol issues and/or had a debilitating disease and/or was just selfish and manipulative, wishing to get the kid out of the house only to see them pop up again for a short while as a good kid, then go off to college.
there were also a few cases where one of the biological parents were one of the parents died as a result of drug abuse, crack and alchohol are common culprits; while the other parent remained straight and affluent.
although the suburban middle class and upper class make up a large part of hidden lake's clientele, there are other sectors of society present. I knew a girl who's father was a well-known but not famous music producer. there was another girl who's dad operated grow houses, and her divorced mother sent her away against his will. there were doctors, teachers, and lawyers among parents too. one kid's mother was a wiccan priestess. i knew another who's dad owned a small tobacco farm and processing plant.
there is alot of variety in parents in regards to education, occupation and lifestyle. the only common factors (to me at least) seem to be some form of family history of either abuse, death, disease, or serious drug abuse, along with parents who would rather spend more time at work and going out than with their kids.
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Single parent, handicapped sibling, small business owner (other parent killed in a car accident) kid with serious criminal charges, program offered mental health treatment and family counselling.
Parent no longer in program, kid still in program (court ordered)
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from what I saw, parents were shellshocked but caring. (go ahead and fire away)...
There were doctors, wealthy stock brokers, a Mormon, a high tech accountant, some single parents who had lost their spouses to cancer. A lot of older parents (we were the youngest) who adopted kids later and a handful of entertainer's kids who I won't name to respect their kids' privacy. The common denominator seemed to be wealth and being able to afford the cost of this industry. I did talk to most and like us, the sheer fear was palpable. I do believe (and again, fire away) those parents in that TBS loved their kids and were desperate in trying to help them. I am not bitter at those parents there as much as I am towards the ed cons and this whole shyster industry.
from a parent of daughter who ran from program after four months and I STRONGLY support her decision.
Thank you for all of your insight b/c without it, Not sure what would of happened when she ran.
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After now having spoken to many kids and parents, I am actually surprised at the diversity. While more have been financially comfortable than not there have been plenty who are not especially well off. This indicates to me that obviously while there are many kids who do go due to uncaring or even abusive homes there are also many whose families are willing to sacrifice a lot. I can only assume this means they really do see it as putting the kid first.
I have also been surprised at the amount of kids who have said their parents have been academics of some kind. One thing this industry has opened my eyes to is my own snobbery. I had previously imagined academics or more educated non "nuovo riche" types would be too concerned with the lack of quality education in this system to send their kids.
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While most of the families are fairly affluent, this type of expense is seldom considered small. Also, I was more concerned about the level of academics than most parents, but since my son was blowing off his academics at home, what difference did it make? He had been kicked out of a top school for behavior and was not attending much school at the time he went to program.
I saw a number of divorced parents and a huge number of adopted kids. Affluence level of the parents ranged from owner of a professional sports team (one of wealthiest people in country) to people who sold or mortgaged homes to be able to afford the program.
I did not see one family that I would consider uncaring or who just wanted to "warehouse" their kid. Whether or not the choice of program might have been wrong, ALL of these families cared deeply.
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I did not see one family that I would consider uncaring or who just wanted to "warehouse" their kid. Whether or not the choice of program might have been wrong, ALL of these families cared deeply.
I am sure you didn't. However it stands to reason that those parents who were either a little on the lazy or hysterical side or giving into the demands of a stepparent who never signed on for an obnoxious kid are not likely to admit it to a room full of other parents. If brat camp and books like What it takes to pull me through are any kind of case study there is some evidence that some kids are being sent for being a bit of a handful but not for exhibiting any truly life threatening problems. Many kids also claim that they were offensive to their families sensibilities but not addicted to anything or a danger to others or themselves. This indicates to me that there are 2 sides to every story but that no program will listen to the kid's side fully because it would then be out of business.
It also does not help that programs are a logical extension of
western consumer culture. In a world where kids and adults alike are as a matter of course used to being able to throw money at a problem to make it go away it is in some ways unsurprising that somebody came upon this idea. It stands to reason that if the natural way of coping with things is to buy a fix and it feels like you cant "fix" your kid you can call someone who will. Randal Hinton's Pizza delivery analogy was alarmingly apt
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Oz girl wrote:
This indicates to me that there are 2 sides to every story but that no program will listen to the kid's side fully because it would then be out of business.
As soon as the label "troubled teen" is slapped on a child, the child's credibility is diminished or wiped out, and the parents' credibility is increased. I was astonished to see how quickly and effectively this worked in my own family. A normal teenager with good reason to be angry with her father and the world (my niece) got labeled as being "not normal" and now some in the family talk about how she was always an emotionally unbalanced child, though they can never cite any examples for me of abnormal behavior they themselves witnessed. They repeat the story told by her parents about times when she raged at them, or embarassed them in public (gawdfabid!).
This credibility gap would perhaps be less of a problem if we had a system in which the child had a process for legal appeal. For example, if you file to have someone declared mentally disabled and therefore unfit to make decision for themselves, the court is required to appoint legal counsel to represent the person, and an independent representative of the court (like a nurse or social worker) is required to meet with the person and make an independent determination/report for the court as to his or her mental capacity. The burden of proof is high. If that type of process were required for programs, I believe far more children would escape being sent to programs.
Auntie Em
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Oz girl wrote:
This indicates to me that there are 2 sides to every story but that no program will listen to the kid's side fully because it would then be out of business.
As soon as the label "troubled teen" is slapped on a child, the child's credibility is diminished or wiped out, and the parents' credibility is increased. I was astonished to see how quickly and effectively this worked in my own family. A normal teenager with good reason to be angry with her father and the world (my niece) got labeled as being "not normal" and now some in the family talk about how she was always an emotionally unbalanced child, though they can never cite any examples for me of abnormal behavior they themselves witnessed. They repeat the story told by her parents about times when she raged at them, or embarassed them in public (gawdfabid!).
This credibility gap would perhaps be less of a problem if we had a system in which the child had a process for legal appeal. For example, if you file to have someone declared mentally disabled and therefore unfit to make decision for themselves, the court is required to appoint legal counsel to represent the person, and an independent representative of the court (like a nurse or social worker) is required to meet with the person and make an independent determination/report for the court as to his or her mental capacity. The burden of proof is high. If that type of process were required for programs, I believe far more children would escape being sent to programs.
Auntie Em
That’s a good suggestion. My daughters' TBS required testing to be done by an independent psychologist prior to her being accepted. She was also tested while she attended SUWS but I don’t remember the name of the test. I have a family member who is a child psychologist and he handled the communication with the test results from SUWS and Mcleans where she was evaluated prior to acceptance.
I think if there was a standard evaluation form, which had the approval of the courts or child advocacy programs, which was mandatory prior to attending a TBS this would help prevent kids who didn’t need to go from going. Maybe as a minimum the children needs to be seen by a therapist who is trained in this area and the therapist makes the recommendation.
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Really. ASR did not do that with any of the kids in What it takes to pull me through (the book you recommended as a positive example of TBS) One of the kids they took was according to the author dangerously underweight and drug addicted but they sent her on a wilderness course which marcus described as limiting food intake and involving strenuous exercise. I wonder what kind of doctor or mental health professional would advise such a program was the right thing for that kid?
Alot of other kids that have posted here have also reflected that no independent evaluation was done and that an ed con recommended ASR. While you have said that many of these kids are just bitter you also sung the praises of Dave marcus
Oz girl
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I have a family member who is a child psychologist and he handled the communication with the test results from SUWS and Mcleans where she was evaluated prior to acceptance.
Sounds kinda like the whole family facilitated her being shipped off..
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The whole family with the exception of the daughter I'm sure.
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Where is this kids MOM? TheWHO never mentions her. Or is TheWHO actually her MOM?
::seg::
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Really. ASR did not do that with any of the kids in What it takes to pull me through (the book you recommended as a positive example of TBS) One of the kids they took was according to the author dangerously underweight and drug addicted but they sent her on a wilderness course which marcus described as limiting food intake and involving strenuous exercise. I wonder what kind of doctor or mental health professional would advise such a program was the right thing for that kid?
Alot of other kids that have posted here have also reflected that no independent evaluation was done and that an ed con recommended ASR. While you have said that many of these kids are just bitter you also sung the praises of Dave marcus
Oz girl
I don’t believe I said the book was all positive. It was an honest independent account of what goes on inside a program. Dave Marcus is a Pulitzer prize winning author who spent a year and a half inside a program and wrote a book about what he saw. There was also a study done at ASR by a university student going working towards her doctorate. She presented her results in a paper.
This shows that these programs are not shrouded in secrecy and their methods and doors are open to whoever is interested. There are many people who post here on fornits who ask for this transparency yet when it is provided no one references it… I haven’t seen the book show up as one of the list of books for recommended reading by fornits. You would think it would be one of the top books since it deals specifically with the goings on inside a program….. since the book was written the school continues to evolve and has softened some of its harder edges mostly due to feedback from parents…ASR has since moved towards a more clinical approach in its methods……
Each year that passes the schools improve, evolve and move forward but fornits seems to still rely on stories from 30 years ago to describe the workings of programs.
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"What it takes to pull me through" is a hopelessly sanitized puff piece.
The only place that anyone, ever, talks about what really goes on are sites like Anti-WWASP, ISAC, The .info Network (http://http://www.aspeneducation.info), and Fornits.
Look at how pathetic this guy is. Just LOOK at it. He's talking to people who have actually been there and keeps going "No, no, no, here's what you're supposed to believe!" anyway.
It's like he thinks he can outweigh all of Fornits if he keeps spouting enough bullshit.
Uh, no. The only people interested in revealing the truth are Fornits members and their kin, the only reason the programs aren't shrouded in secrecy are because of sites like this one, and despite how much time you put into it, no one will go back to believing bullshit after having seen reality. You lose; get the fuck out.
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"What it Takes to Pull me Through" is a true account of what goes on inside a program. I think the reason it is not discussed here is because it shows that programs can work and the programs of today are not like they were 30 years ago.
Once fornits starts talking in the present tense, I think we can quickly start making a difference, start identifying the strengths and weaknesses of various programs and help steer some of these kids away from the less effective ones.
Link: http://http://www.davemarcus.com
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Didn't Marcus end up with a sweet *consulting* job with Aspen Ed after he wrote the book?
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Yes, he did.
Plus, if you read the book, you'll see that a very significant percentage of its subjects are dead, addicted or in jail following their Aspen experience.
Sure sounds like "success" to me! :roll:
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I have to second the comment made earlier about the other parents I met at the program. None of them were interested in just "warehousing" their kids or trying to punish them. These parents all showed a lot of love and concern for their child and made huge financial sacrifices to try to help them. Most were upper middle class, well educated, but not wealthy by any stretch. The high cost of the program was clearly a significant financial event in their lives.
The fact that they were conned by the program and sold a bunch of quackery is another issue. That makes them gullible or desperate, not necessarily stupid and certainly not evil or uncaring. If the anti-program forces of Fornits and other groups are going to win this battle and shut down these abusive shysters, they will do much better if they enlist the support of ex-program parents who finally saw the light, rather than branding them all as the enemy.
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I know Marcus both personally and proffesionally, for quite a long time. He's one of the least trustworthy individuals i have ever had the displeasure of meeting. we have very simmilar carreers. i wouldnt trust the guy with 5$. he'd go out and buy a big mac, then spend a year trying to bribe scientists with the remaining $2 to prove it's good for you.
he's the kinda guy who if given the choice of all his loved ones dying in return for a million dollars, vs. living his life as is, he'd take the million dollars without flinching.
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I know Marcus both personally and proffesionally, for quite a long time. He's one of the least trustworthy individuals i have ever had the displeasure of meeting. we have very simmilar carreers. i wouldnt trust the guy with 5$. he'd go out and buy a big mac, then spend a year trying to bribe scientists with the remaining $2 to prove it's good for you.
he's the kinda guy who if given the choice of all his loved ones dying in return for a million dollars, vs. living his life as is, he'd take the million dollars without flinching.
It is spelled "Professionally". You obviously do not know him on this level. He is a writer.
I think fornits just hit a new low.
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I know Marcus both personally and proffesionally, for quite a long time. He's one of the least trustworthy individuals i have ever had the displeasure of meeting. we have very simmilar carreers. i wouldnt trust the guy with 5$. he'd go out and buy a big mac, then spend a year trying to bribe scientists with the remaining $2 to prove it's good for you.
he's the kinda guy who if given the choice of all his loved ones dying in return for a million dollars, vs. living his life as is, he'd take the million dollars without flinching.
It is spelled "Professionally". You obviously do not know him on this level. He is a writer.
I think fornits just hit a new low.
Typo.
:roll:
Asshole.
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This thread sux..fuck you bozos, I'd rather shoot junk than read this shit.
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This thread sux..fuck you bozos, I'd rather shoot junk than read this shit.
Ah hell..... Fuck You very much. If I were you I would take that junk and fire it straight up your asshole.
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This thread sux..fuck you bozos, I'd rather shoot junk than read this shit.
87% of people who shoot junk dont read on a daily basis or engage in social/family events outside their immediate friends.
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This thread sux..fuck you bozos, I'd rather shoot junk than read this shit.
Ah hell..... Fuck You very much. If I were you I would take that junk and fire it straight up your asshole.
:roll: You sound like one sadistic fucker, ya bastard ya!
Can't a guy shoot up in peace anymore?
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I have to second the comment made earlier about the other parents I met at the program. None of them were interested in just "warehousing" their kids or trying to punish them. These parents all showed a lot of love and concern for their child and made huge financial sacrifices to try to help them. Most were upper middle class, well educated, but not wealthy by any stretch. The high cost of the program was clearly a significant financial event in their lives.
From my reading here on fornits I have found the use of the terms “warehousingâ€
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From my reading here on fornits I have found the use of the terms “warehousingâ€
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From my reading here on fornits I have found the use of the terms “warehousingâ€
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programs in general were worse back then
They continue to improve is many peoples point. So we shouldn’t be using examples from 10 to 30 years ago to define todays schools.
2 : to subject to confinement
I agree with this. This could also mean confined to ones bedroom for a week or being grounded. But people typically don’t call it incarcerated. I think the terminology is a little off.
of course in most "traditional" boarding schools a majority of students are "warehoused"
So warehoused means having a bunch of kids together in one place. They could be warehoused at school or at summer camp, or warehoused in a wilderness program or church group, warehoused at a local high school for the day.
So warehousing doesn’t seem to be an issue but the length of time does.
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:roll:
WE NEED TO COMPARE MONTHS OF TORTURE TO ORDINARY CHILDHOOD EXPERIENCES AGAIN
PEOPLE AREN'T LISTENING TO THEWHO ANYMORE
OK LETS DO IT ANONYMOUSLY
And what the hell do you mean that they were worse in the '50s? There were no fucking programs in the '50s! There were abusive reform schools and orphanages, to be sure, but the advent of using pseudo-psychological cult techniques on children didn't happen until Synanon.
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but the advent of using pseudo-psychological cult techniques on children didn't happen until Synanon.
Self-correction: I meant in the secular sense. Religious groups have been doing this since at least a few hundred years after Christ.
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:roll:
WE NEED TO COMPARE MONTHS OF TORTURE TO ORDINARY CHILDHOOD EXPERIENCES AGAIN
PEOPLE AREN'T LISTENING TO THEWHO ANYMORE
OK LETS DO IT ANONYMOUSLY
And what the hell do you mean that they were worse in the '50s? There were no fucking programs in the '50s! There were abusive reform schools and orphanages, to be sure, but the advent of using pseudo-psychological cult techniques on children didn't happen until Synanon.
Dont be so harsh on the guy. I believe what the poster was trying to say was that it was alot worse back then. You cant compare abusive reform schools to the TBS of today.
As far as torture goes, I think most people would require a little bit of proof before they would believe that one.
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Funny. TheWho writes the post anonymously and then says "Take it easy on the guy..." At least four posts of the last ten are TheWho posting anonymously. Sheesh.
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To return to the original topic:
The amount of education received by program parents has only one value:
NOT ENOUGH.
Otherwise they wouldn't be program parents.
QED!
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Dont be so harsh on the guy. I believe what the poster was trying to say was that it was alot worse back then. You cant compare abusive reform schools to the TBS of today.
As far as torture goes, I think most people would require a little bit of proof before they would believe that one.
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Hold on a minute....[/color]
Who, the way you are trying to present this is like it happened centuries ago. Fact being Straight Inc did not shut down until the late 80's and there have been many copy cat programs that used the same model and methods that Synanon, Straight, Seed, Kids Helping Kids, Growing Together (Which this one just recently has closed or so they say within the last 2 years). So it is not even like it has been decades ago.
The fact remains that there are programs out there that operate using the same abusive "Behavorial Modification" techniques as the forementioned programs.
And the fact remains that they still use manipulation tactics on the parents as well as the kids.
So please advise parents of the truth.....
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Dont be so harsh on the guy. I believe what the poster was trying to say was that it was alot worse back then. You cant compare abusive reform schools to the TBS of today.
As far as torture goes, I think most people would require a little bit of proof before they would believe that one.
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Hold on a minute....[/color]
Who, the way you are trying to present this is like it happened centuries ago. Fact being Straight Inc did not shut down until the late 80's and there have been many copy cat programs that used the same model and methods that Synanon, Straight, Seed, Kids Helping Kids, Growing Together (Which this one just recently has closed or so they say within the last 2 years). So it is not even like it has been decades ago.
The fact remains that there are programs out there that operate using the same abusive "Behavorial Modification" techniques as the forementioned programs.
And the fact remains that they still use manipulation tactics on the parents as well as the kids.
So please advise parents of the truth.....
All programs use "Behavior Modification". Every school in America, every sports team use it. What we are trying to separate out is the abusive programs of the past.
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All programs use "Behavior Modification". Every school in America, every sports team use it. What we are trying to separate out is the abusive programs of the past.
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How far back are you considering the past to be?????
Take a minute to read this article and see what the date is on this. After this happened it still took a while for them to close or relocate under a different name.
So here is a little proof that abuse is not acient history.
http://www.browardpalmbeach.com/2004-12 ... -together/ (http://www.browardpalmbeach.com/2004-12-09/news/suffering-together/)
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All programs use "Behavior Modification". Every school in America, every sports team use it. What we are trying to separate out is the abusive programs of the past.
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How far back are you considering the past to be?????
Take a minute to read this article and see what the date is on this. After this happened it still took a while for them to close or relocate under a different name.
So here is a little proof that abuse is not acient history.
http://www.browardpalmbeach.com/2004-12 ... -together/ (http://www.browardpalmbeach.com/2004-12-09/news/suffering-together/)
Thats the kind of stuff I am talking about. We need to shut those places down and put them out of business. Many here at fornits spend their time moaning about programs not allowing kids to have a cell phone or being forced to clean the hallway or own rooms and calling this abusive.
I dont know why people dont put their effort towards the programs which are abusing kids.
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So you do admit that abuse still happens in todays time in programs then????
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"What it takes to pull me through" is a hopelessly sanitized puff piece.
The only place that anyone, ever, talks about what really goes on are sites like Anti-WWASP, ISAC, The .info Network (http://http://www.aspeneducation.info), and Fornits.
Look at how pathetic this guy is. Just LOOK at it. He's talking to people who have actually been there and keeps going "No, no, no, here's what you're supposed to believe!" anyway.
It's like he thinks he can outweigh all of Fornits if he keeps spouting enough bullshit.
Uh, no. The only people interested in revealing the truth are Fornits members and their kin, the only reason the programs aren't shrouded in secrecy are because of sites like this one, and despite how much time you put into it, no one will go back to believing bullshit after having seen reality. You lose; get the fuck out.
I would agree that it was vehemently pro program in that he sure brought the tough love philosophy but it was also illuminating if you looked at it with any clarity. I do not know if the who actually read it before he recommended it. The fact that he was supposed to be following a group of the schools best and brightest, its rehab superstars says it all as from this "successful" group
-A girl whos dad sent her to prevent teen pregnancy got pregnant in her first yr of university
-A girl whos suicidal tendencies were ignored in favour of a disturbing public humiliation threw herself in front of a bus and ended up in a mental hospital
-A boy who was sent for drug rehab overdosed and nearly died
-Another boy did die of alcohol poisoning in his first yr of university
Of these kids who were apparently so succesful they were tagged the guru group there was a 30% failure rate immediately after the kids left school. The idealistic young teacher who left after a single yr said the only thing she loved about ASR was the kids. I wonder how bad it was for the rest of the school.
Getting back to the topic of parents, I wonder if it really matters what level of education there is. Perhaps the question is what they thought they would get out of it or what they were sold? Peace? a break from a kid they are struggling to cope with? help for their kid?vengeance? It could be any number of things.
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One last thing before I log off........
Why are these programs not listed in the wonderful matrix with the stats??????
This article talked of abuse, attempted suicides, etc. the same info you post.
http://www.browardpalmbeach.com/2004-12 ... -together/ (http://www.browardpalmbeach.com/2004-12-09/news/suffering-together/)
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One last thing before I log off........
Why are these programs not listed in the wonderful matrix with the stats??????
This article talked of abuse, attempted suicides, etc. the same info you post.
http://www.browardpalmbeach.com/2004-12 ... -together/ (http://www.browardpalmbeach.com/2004-12-09/news/suffering-together/)
No the matrix covers the same information the NCES collects...suicides and Homicides
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programs in general were worse back then
They continue to improve is many peoples point. So we shouldn’t be using examples from 10 to 30 years ago to define todays schools.
there are schools which are worse now....like TB or casa by the sea, or the numerous "boot camps" just across the border in mexico.
2 : to subject to confinement
I agree with this. This could also mean confined to ones bedroom for a week or being grounded. But people typically don’t call it incarcerated. I think the terminology is a little off.
There is a differenece between grounding and being shipped off to a faraway place that you physically cannot leave. When one is grounded, they may still leave the house, and although the consequences may be severe from your parents, they will not involve the millitary hellicopters, search dogs, the risk of death due to exposure, or arrest due to not having an ID or running away. Also, you are forgetting how many kids are COURT ORDERED to programs. yes, they use helicopters. At HLA, they used their connections and proximity to the ranger base for help with finding runaways. and if the cops saw you, they arrested you and took you back, regardless of how legal it is to do so.
of course in most "traditional" boarding schools a majority of students are "warehoused"
So warehoused means having a bunch of kids together in one place. They could be warehoused at school or at summer camp, or warehoused in a wilderness program or church group, warehoused at a local high school for the day.
So warehousing doesn’t seem to be an issue but the length of time does.
The parents intentions, distance from home, freedom within the warehouse, the child's willingness to go, ability to leave, along with the length of time are all factors which determine warehousing and the degree of incarceration.
It's possible to have kids which are technically "warehoused" in the same institution with kids who are there for other reasons.
one must go to school. there is no way around it, and choosing not to home school a child is even preferable. sending a child away becouse you dont want to deal with them, and want to be able to spend more time bangin your new husband/wife, or if you are simply unable to get control over your kids, are all intentions which seperate a kid going to a boarding school or summer camp, or tbs, (under which they fall into the "warehoused" category), from the kids that go to boarding school for the education and kids that enjoy summer camp.
stress positions are considered a form of torture. anyone going to deny the use of stress positions in tbs's?
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programs in general were worse back then
They continue to improve is many peoples point. So we shouldn’t be using examples from 10 to 30 years ago to define todays schools.
there are schools which are worse now....like TB or casa by the sea, or the numerous "boot camps" just across the border in mexico.
2 : to subject to confinement
I agree with this. This could also mean confined to ones bedroom for a week or being grounded. But people typically don’t call it incarcerated. I think the terminology is a little off.
There is a differenece between grounding and being shipped off to a faraway place that you physically cannot leave. When one is grounded, they may still leave the house, and although the consequences may be severe from your parents, they will not involve the millitary hellicopters, search dogs, the risk of death due to exposure, or arrest due to not having an ID or running away. Also, you are forgetting how many kids are COURT ORDERED to programs. yes, they use helicopters. At HLA, they used their connections and proximity to the ranger base for help with finding runaways. and if the cops saw you, they arrested you and took you back, regardless of how legal it is to do so.
of course in most "traditional" boarding schools a majority of students are "warehoused"
So warehoused means having a bunch of kids together in one place. They could be warehoused at school or at summer camp, or warehoused in a wilderness program or church group, warehoused at a local high school for the day.
So warehousing doesn’t seem to be an issue but the length of time does.
The parents intentions, distance from home, freedom within the warehouse, the child's willingness to go, ability to leave, along with the length of time are all factors which determine warehousing and the degree of incarceration.
It's possible to have kids which are technically "warehoused" in the same institution with kids who are there for other reasons.
one must go to school. there is no way around it, and choosing not to home school a child is even preferable. sending a child away becouse you dont want to deal with them, and want to be able to spend more time bangin your new husband/wife, or if you are simply unable to get control over your kids, are all intentions which seperate a kid going to a boarding school or summer camp, or tbs, (under which they fall into the "warehoused" category), from the kids that go to boarding school for the education and kids that enjoy summer camp.
stress positions are considered a form of torture. anyone going to deny the use of stress positions in tbs's?
I was tortured recently at a place that had been open for 30 years, and was shut down not long after I left. The place practiced systematic torture of the sort the communist thought reform prisons practiced.
Of course this isn't the topic.
Every topic is hijacked by the child torturer and turned into a question of "does abuse happen" "can you really call that abuse"
Doesn’t this qualify as spamming? Can't the child torturer be banned?
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programs in general were worse back then
They continue to improve is many peoples point. So we shouldn’t be using examples from 10 to 30 years ago to define todays schools.
there are schools which are worse now....like TB or casa by the sea, or the numerous "boot camps" just across the border in mexico.
2 : to subject to confinement
I agree with this. This could also mean confined to ones bedroom for a week or being grounded. But people typically don’t call it incarcerated. I think the terminology is a little off.
There is a differenece between grounding and being shipped off to a faraway place that you physically cannot leave. When one is grounded, they may still leave the house, and although the consequences may be severe from your parents, they will not involve the millitary hellicopters, search dogs, the risk of death due to exposure, or arrest due to not having an ID or running away. Also, you are forgetting how many kids are COURT ORDERED to programs. yes, they use helicopters. At HLA, they used their connections and proximity to the ranger base for help with finding runaways. and if the cops saw you, they arrested you and took you back, regardless of how legal it is to do so.
of course in most "traditional" boarding schools a majority of students are "warehoused"
So warehoused means having a bunch of kids together in one place. They could be warehoused at school or at summer camp, or warehoused in a wilderness program or church group, warehoused at a local high school for the day.
So warehousing doesn’t seem to be an issue but the length of time does.
The parents intentions, distance from home, freedom within the warehouse, the child's willingness to go, ability to leave, along with the length of time are all factors which determine warehousing and the degree of incarceration.
It's possible to have kids which are technically "warehoused" in the same institution with kids who are there for other reasons.
one must go to school. there is no way around it, and choosing not to home school a child is even preferable. sending a child away becouse you dont want to deal with them, and want to be able to spend more time bangin your new husband/wife, or if you are simply unable to get control over your kids, are all intentions which seperate a kid going to a boarding school or summer camp, or tbs, (under which they fall into the "warehoused" category), from the kids that go to boarding school for the education and kids that enjoy summer camp.
stress positions are considered a form of torture. anyone going to deny the use of stress positions in tbs's?
I was tortured recently at a place that had been open for 30 years, and was shut down not long after I left. The place practiced systematic torture of the sort the communist thought reform prisons practiced.
Of course this isn't the topic.
Every topic is hijacked by the child torturer and turned into a question of "does abuse happen" "can you really call that abuse"
Doesn’t this qualify as spamming? Can't the child torturer be banned?
What is the name of the place you went to?
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It was called Straight Inc. by The Sea:
http://fornits.com/SIBS (http://fornits.com/SIBS)
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so, what's your point?
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so, what's your point?
The one at the end of my longsword.
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programs in general were worse back then
They continue to improve is many peoples point. So we shouldn’t be using examples from 10 to 30 years ago to define todays schools.
there are schools which are worse now....like TB or casa by the sea, or the numerous "boot camps" just across the border in mexico.
2 : to subject to confinement
I agree with this. This could also mean confined to ones bedroom for a week or being grounded. But people typically don’t call it incarcerated. I think the terminology is a little off.
There is a differenece between grounding and being shipped off to a faraway place that you physically cannot leave. When one is grounded, they may still leave the house, and although the consequences may be severe from your parents, they will not involve the millitary hellicopters, search dogs, the risk of death due to exposure, or arrest due to not having an ID or running away. Also, you are forgetting how many kids are COURT ORDERED to programs. yes, they use helicopters. At HLA, they used their connections and proximity to the ranger base for help with finding runaways. and if the cops saw you, they arrested you and took you back, regardless of how legal it is to do so.
of course in most "traditional" boarding schools a majority of students are "warehoused"
So warehoused means having a bunch of kids together in one place. They could be warehoused at school or at summer camp, or warehoused in a wilderness program or church group, warehoused at a local high school for the day.
So warehousing doesn’t seem to be an issue but the length of time does.
The parents intentions, distance from home, freedom within the warehouse, the child's willingness to go, ability to leave, along with the length of time are all factors which determine warehousing and the degree of incarceration.
It's possible to have kids which are technically "warehoused" in the same institution with kids who are there for other reasons.
one must go to school. there is no way around it, and choosing not to home school a child is even preferable. sending a child away becouse you dont want to deal with them, and want to be able to spend more time bangin your new husband/wife, or if you are simply unable to get control over your kids, are all intentions which seperate a kid going to a boarding school or summer camp, or tbs, (under which they fall into the "warehoused" category), from the kids that go to boarding school for the education and kids that enjoy summer camp.
stress positions are considered a form of torture. anyone going to deny the use of stress positions in tbs's?
I was tortured recently at a place that had been open for 30 years, and was shut down not long after I left. The place practiced systematic torture of the sort the communist thought reform prisons practiced.
Of course this isn't the topic.
Every topic is hijacked by the child torturer and turned into a question of "does abuse happen" "can you really call that abuse"
Doesn’t this qualify as spamming? Can't the child torturer be banned?
What is the name of the place you went to?
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so, what's your point?
The one at the end of my longsword.
Arrr.. where be me cutlass?
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So you do admit that abuse still happens in todays time in programs then????
Hey Who...... I did not see a response to this question. You replied on all my other post.
Are you scared to answer this question????
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So you do admit that abuse still happens in todays time in programs then????
Hey Who...... I did not see a response to this question. You replied on all my other post.
Are you scared to answer this question????
Who.....We are still awaiting your reply!!!!!![/color]
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So you do admit that abuse still happens in todays time in programs then????
Hey Who...... I did not see a response to this question. You replied on all my other post.
Are you scared to answer this question????
Who.....We are still awaiting your reply!!!!!![/color]
I believe abuse happens everywhere kids are likely to go. This includes our school systems, summer camp, church, home environment and programs. I think what we need to look at is where the abuse occurs and decide if it is systemic or not. Any institution is going to hire the wrong person eventually and that person will do harm.
One of the keys is to look at the schools hiring practices and the pool of people they hire from and bounce this off of any screening process that they have documented which could weed out any potential abusive employees.
...
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the who, your failure to think of, mention, or take intrest in the following point indicates your participation in the industry.
the point..
what needs to be looked at is what kind of environment, conditions, rules, and other factors are more likely to generate staff-student abuse/sadism/powertripping and ALSO student-student abuse.
true, certain people are more likely to abuse kids than others. unfortunately, it's pretty hard to screen out who will participate in a abuse in any given situation. please refer to the stanford prison experiment (for the xthousanth time). No you cant use your data for this, because if the programs were surveyed, the data would be biased, and experiments would involve too many resources, and would never get funding. It must be done by a panel of knoweldgeable psychiatrists, psychologists, historians and philosophers. Most people have the common sense to know that for example, "disclosure therapy", is more damaging than helpfull. you just dont have the moral fibre to understand that prolonged emotional abuse is equal or paramount to actual physical abuse. your statistics dont mean shit when it comes down to emotional abuse.
eliminating child abuse, as with anything, is impossible. what is possible is decreasing the probability of such an occurence. programs have a very very high probability of abuse. there are no official, acurate stats on what kind of and how much abuse happens in, say, prison. but everyone knows that if you go to prison, you risk getting raped, beaten, killed, joining a gang for life, etc. everyone knows it's the prison environment - not all that different from a program environment. likewise, everyone knows that programs are abusive, just not on the same level. it's common sense that you are more likely to emotionally or physically abused in a program than in summer camp, because the environment, rules, ideology, kids, and activities generate a lesser probability of abuse happening.
if you take a deep look into this, and dig deep into your heart for that one little grain of compassion you may have buried in there.....you'll realize that nearly all of these programs perpetuate abuse on every level. screening out people with records and drug testing aint gonna do jack shit.
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the who, your failure to think of, mention, or take intrest in the following point indicates your participation in the industry.
the point..
what needs to be looked at is what kind of environment, conditions, rules, and other factors are more likely to generate staff-student abuse/sadism/powertripping and ALSO student-student abuse.
true, certain people are more likely to abuse kids than others. unfortunately, it's pretty hard to screen out who will participate in a abuse in any given situation. please refer to the stanford prison experiment (for the xthousanth time).
Look I have responded to this many times. Even the people running the experiment admitted it was flawed because the guards felt like they needed to play a part or act like guards did in the movies. They carried sticks and put on mirrored glasses. The in mates felt they should organize or strike, which they did, because they felt this would be what would be expected…etc. it wasn’t conclusive.
No you cant use your data for this, because if the programs were surveyed, the data would be biased, and experiments would involve too many resources, and would never get funding. It must be done by a panel of knoweldgeable psychiatrists, psychologists, historians and philosophers. Most people have the common sense to know that for example, "disclosure therapy", is more damaging than helpfull. you just dont have the moral fibre to understand that prolonged emotional abuse is equal or paramount to actual physical abuse. your statistics dont mean shit when it comes down to emotional abuse.
I agree, you get no argument from me, but I am not tracking emotional abuse. There is no data available and even if there was it isn’t tracked in the public sector so there would be nothing to compare it to.
eliminating child abuse, as with anything, is impossible. what is possible is decreasing the probability of such an occurence. programs have a very very high probability of abuse. there are no official, acurate stats on what kind of and how much abuse happens in, say, prison. but everyone knows that if you go to prison, you risk getting raped, beaten, killed, joining a gang for life, etc. everyone knows it's the prison environment - not all that different from a program environment. likewise, everyone knows that programs are abusive, just not on the same level. it's common sense that you are more likely to emotionally or physically abused in a program than in summer camp, because the environment, rules, ideology, kids, and activities generate a lesser probability of abuse happening. if you take a deep look into this, and dig deep into your heart for that one little grain of compassion you may have buried in there.....you'll realize that nearly all of these programs perpetuate abuse on every level. screening out people with records and drug testing aint gonna do jack shit.
Your thinking is flawed, because in a prison environment the guards (for the most part) are not pursuing a career in helping kids or careers in mental health (and for the reasons I stated above). Almost all the staff who left the program (where my daughter attended) were going back to school to further their education (masters) in the mental health field. The people in the mental health field are not very likely to abuse kids. So this environment would be safer than any public school setting.
Prisons are designed to keep bad people from getting back into society. TBS’s are designed to get kids back on track, keep them safe…etc. There is a huge difference.
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The people in the mental health field are not very likely to abuse kids. So this environment would be safer than any public school setting.
Where did you get this disinformation from? Child abuse cross-cuts every segment of society, from teachers to cops to mental health professionals to professional athletes.
One thing you neglected to mention is that child abusers very often seek out positions where they can control and abuse their victims. To a child abuser, there is NO BETTER PLACE than a "TBS" to find plentiful victims who can't report the abuse or won't be believed.[/u]
What you're saying above is like saying "Church is safe because priests wouldn't harm children." We all know THAT's a crock of shit, just like your mangled inductive reasoning.
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Child abuse cross-cuts every segment of society, from teachers to cops to mental health professionals to professional athletes.
I already stated that.. here:
I believe abuse happens everywhere kids are likely to go. This includes our school systems, summer camp, church, home environment and programs. I think what we need to look at is where the abuse occurs and decide if it is systemic or not. Any institution is going to hire the wrong person eventually and that person will do harm.
One of the keys is to look at the schools hiring practices and the pool of people they hire from and bounce this off of any screening process that they have documented which could weed out any potential abusive employees.
http://http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=301246#301246
One thing you neglected to mention is that child abusers very often seek out positions where they can control and abuse their victims. To a child abuser, there is NO BETTER PLACE than a "TBS" to find plentiful victims who can't report the abuse or won't be believed.
Day care settings, church youth groups, schools, boarding schools, mental health facilities..... Child abusers will go where the kids are and TBS’s are no different. But TBS’s,I believe, they are safer because of the employees that they attract.
What you're saying above is like saying "Church is safe because priests wouldn't harm children." We all know THAT's a crock of shit, just like your mangled inductive reasoning.
No, I am not, I am saying TBS’s are safer than Prison and the public sector school systems.
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Based on what? And you still fail to see the point. Child abusers will be MORE HIGHLY CONCENTRATED in TBS's because they can ply their trade and get away with it. It's simple. There's just no way for victims to respond to the abuse. You think CM's don't KNOW this? If so, you're dumber than I originally thought.
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Based on what? And you still fail to see the point. Child abusers will be MORE HIGHLY CONCENTRATED in TBS's because they can ply their trade and get away with it. It's simple. There's just no way for victims to respond to the abuse. You think CM's don't KNOW this? If so, you're dumber than I originally thought.
You can believe what you want. I have seen the types of people that TBS's attract for employment, the total opposite of prison systems. If you would rather be in prison or send you kid there that is your choice. I just know differently.
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I was abducted from my home, systematically sexually abused, worked as a slave, subjected to 6 hour a day peer denouncement sessions-public degradation-the sort practiced by the Chinese in thought reform prisons, not allowed to move unless another child gave me permission and then only with another 2 children holding me. These adolescents also had the authority to beat me whenever they felt i broke a rule, and they beat other children within inches of their lives. Other times you could be put in isolation, which had no time limit and went on as far as i know up to 6 months. You could also have your right to speak removed, which also had no time limit. Public forced nudity was another punishment. Adolescents forcibly bathed other adolescents. Kids became sick and weren’t allowed medical treatment. If you wanted not to be tortured, you had to torture other kids. Adolescents decided if you were “saneâ€
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The staffs' "abusiveness"at a program is irrelevent, in the same way the concentration camp staff "abusiveness" is irrelevent. Like concentration camps, the majority of these programs, asr, cedu, desisto, etc. practise systematic torture.
The torture will be dealt out by detainees in order to be allowed to leave, and in an attempt to avoid being tortuered themselves. The staff will over see the torture as concetration camp gurads oversaw torture. They think of it as their job, tough, but necessary, cruel, but for the greater good.
In my experience, not all the staff was "sadistic", rather, they were vulnerable people (former drug addicts and prostitues or abducted teens, who were so traumatized, they continued to stay in the hell into which they were tossed, as a way of revictimizing themselves, and others) who were used by the program leaders as cogs in an abuse machine, and didn't really understand what they were doing. So, this issue is largely moot
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The staffs' "abusiveness"at a program is irrelevent, in the same way the concentration camp staff "abusiveness" is irrelevent. Like concentration camps, the majority of these programs, asr, cedu, desisto, etc. practise systematic torture.
The torture will be dealt out by detainees in order to be allowed to leave, and in an attempt to avoid being tortuered themselves. The staff will over see the torture as concetration camp gurads oversaw torture. They think of it as their job, tough, but necessary, cruel, but for the greater good.
In my experience, not all the staff was "sadistic", rather, they were vulnerable people (former drug addicts and prostitues or abducted teens, who were so traumatized, they continued to stay in the hell into which they were tossed, as a way of revictimizing themselves, and others) who were used by the program leaders as cogs in an abuse machine, and didn't really understand what they were doing. So, this issue is largely moot
Ha,Ha,Ha, Fornits brings out the best in people, thats for sure. You gotta love this place. great post. You must be the same guy who posted above and who posted the typhoon/Duct tape post.
Good job, you are too funny!!
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The staffs' "abusiveness"at a program is irrelevent, in the same way the concentration camp staff "abusiveness" is irrelevent. Like concentration camps, the majority of these programs, asr, cedu, desisto, etc. practise systematic torture.
The torture will be dealt out by detainees in order to be allowed to leave, and in an attempt to avoid being tortuered themselves. The staff will over see the torture as concetration camp gurads oversaw torture. They think of it as their job, tough, but necessary, cruel, but for the greater good.
In my experience, not all the staff was "sadistic", rather, they were vulnerable people (former drug addicts and prostitues or abducted teens, who were so traumatized, they continued to stay in the hell into which they were tossed, as a way of revictimizing themselves, and others) who were used by the program leaders as cogs in an abuse machine, and didn't really understand what they were doing. So, this issue is largely moot
Ha,Ha,Ha, Fornits brings out the best in people, thats for sure. You gotta love this place. great post. You must be the same guy who posted above and who posted the typhoon/Duct tape post.
Good job, you are too funny!!
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TheWho thinks child abuse is just the funniest thing going.
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from what i saw at HLA, most parents were liberal arts college grads, suburban middle-class, many with their own small bussinesses. There were also quite a few upper-class families, i wont mention specifics, but many parents were c.e.o's or were on the boards of big hotel chains, food companies, designer labels, banks, international shipping and real estate companies.
Now that you picked up on this, it will not amaze you that these are the parents that the program's salesmen target. This way they can use the line...."What kind of price tag can you put on your child's life."[/color]
Mom and dad both postal workers. Dad had driven trucks and done AC and refrigeration repair while Mom stayed home with her soaps. We were not affluent but grandma and grandpa were. They were also in tight with the Shriners, AA and certain political/business figures allegedly affiliated with the Mad Monk. Jack Slesinger lived upstairs from grandpa and grandma. There was a picture of me at about age 4 or 5 at the helm of his yacht all dressed up in sailor garb. I wonder if my mom threw it out along with all of the other 'clutter' her 'therapist' told her was holding her back.
I've always thought that the high price tags of program are a "guilt" self-punishing mechanism for the parents. They feel "guilty" that they are abandoning and destroying their kids (they're aware of this at a certain level) so they use the high money expenditure to punish themselves for their transgression, thusly absolving themselves of the guilt.
Mom tried this on me once. I told her if she had only asked me I could have saved her lots of money, time and trouble.
Also, if they are spending a great deal of money on a program they can tell themselves they are sacrificing for their kids. This helps them hide the reality of their abuse from themselves
+666 insightful. This explains quite a bit of it.
Combine the above with "It's expensive, so it must be good", "your kid will DIE if he doesn't get HELP NOW, so you have to PAY OR ELSE", and the "Oh, we sent him to a posh school for kids like him, very expensive" factors, and you get a pretty cohesive picture.
[/quote]
I've kept pretty quiet about this till now, hoping I'd be able to have some contact w/ my niece through the family while she runs the gauntlet. I just spoke w/ my sister in law the other day. and remembered what a foolish idea that really is when she started telling me that my niece is a whole lot better, but not quite ready yet after 18 months. Then she said that she'd just go right back to what she was doing if she pulled her out too soon--"Your kid will DIE...". I told her that would only be true if she and the program pounded it into the kid's head so she believed it and that I'd heard the same rap from hundreds of parents, including my own, over the last 30 years or so. My niece was supposed to have her second two week home visit since she'd been there.
Everything was still cool enough till she started talking about how my brother had abandoned the kid. Now that pissed me off! My brother may be a phenomenal fuckup in many ways, but to say that he wilfully abandoned his daughter when, in reality, it took the bitch 3 separate legal actions to sever contact was just beyond the pale! After I opened my mouth, it finally dawned on me that, to a large degree, her induction into the program has more to do with a dirty and protracted divorce than anything at all to do with her daughter.
I wonder how many program parents are divorced? I remember being piqued by how many adopted kids there were and how many with scoliosis. I think those are common threads more than money. Lest we forget, there's a booming public sector market that doesn't require the parents to pay a dime. Martin Lee Anderson died on his first day of "therapy" in one of those. His family were not game for it, but my understanding is that other state funded programs like Eckerd Youth Alternative and the STAR Academies operate on basically the same parent group structure as the Seed and Straight, Inc. No big surprise there, since Florida Department of Law Enforcement and Drug Free America Foundation have always been in tight w/ the 'colorful' characters on Florida's political stage.
I think money is part of it, guilt is part of it, I've met some of the most sadistic, dark, insidious mindfucker parents imaginable. That's probably a lot of it too. But there's a simpler, more practical explanation that covers most of it all by itself. Stepcraft and the rest of the ToughLove hate group is a cult. It started out that way in the daze of Bill Wilson and has remained so through the daze of Nancy Reagan, Dr. Phool and some thousands of little tin god types on the level of the Who, Lon Woodbury and how many others.
When I explained my weird history to a good friend from Haiti, she listened patiently till I was done and I asked her what she though. "Yeah, zombie", she said. Then she explained how certain unscrupulous shamen would make slaves of people in a desperate state for various reasons--young orphans, terminally ill or just shell shocked from life in the wild parts near the Dominican border. They did this by convincing the mark that they had magic to save them from whatever trouble.
It's an old scam, old as the hills. But people continue to fall for it if they are desperate and haven't had sufficient experience with real community.
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These are my answers for my parents at the time that they put me away.
What level of education have you attained? What was your major?
What do you do for a living?
Father=business major (V.P. Sun Trust Bank SW Fl.) Mother=Teacher with a doctorate
Thought that I would add my $.02 in this post.
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Antigen wrote:
I've kept pretty quiet about this till now, hoping I'd be able to have some contact w/ my niece through the family while she runs the gauntlet. I just spoke w/ my sister in law the other day. and remembered what a foolish idea that really is when she started telling me that my niece is a whole lot better, but not quite ready yet after 18 months. Then she said that she'd just go right back to what she was doing if she pulled her out too soon--"Your kid will DIE...".
Really sorry to hear this. It must break your heart.
Yes, I think any kind of family trauma or conflict can be a catalyst to a parent's decision to send his or her child to a program. Look at the self-assessment forms they use! This one from Aspen Achievement Academy:
http://www.parentcheckin.com/assessment/assessment.asp?progid={3A6498E6-146C-4D7A-BF60-4B036B164C9F}
(Sorry, don't know why the URL function is not working for me just now.)
If you browse the AAA site, no matter what problem you say your child has, it points you to the same assessment form. And, oh Lucky Winner, what might our very first question be?
Has your child had recurring problems due to...Any traumatic events or changes in his /her life? (i.e. abuse, divorce, death,etc.)
So I think you are right on the money when you point to divorce, and I would suggest any trauma or conflict may be viewed by the programs as a sales opportunity.
Very next question? Has your child had recurring problems due to...Inability to manage anger?
How can a kid win? I mean really, how? Get abused, have your parents divorce, have one of your parents die, but don't get angry?
It's healthy and normal for a child to be angry about traumas and conflicts like that. Adults certainly show extreme emotions under those circumstances.
Auntie Em
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I dont know if this is a question for another forum but I am interested in what makes some parents run for the hills and others stay with it for years and sometimes multiple programs even when there is no evidence of it working.
I would imagine that if you were not well off and you committed a large sum of money to a program you would be reluctant to not at least give it an honest go for a few months. But to keep your kid in for more than a year when they are getting dropped down some levels I find more hard to fathom. So I can strongly see the cult argument
Ginger I recall you once saying your dad eventually came to see Straight and the seed differently to your mum. What do you think turned him around? afterall you were not the only kid in your family to go through this.
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I killed both of my parents before going into the program...
Just kidding...
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I killed both of my parents before going into the program...
Just kidding...
I killed both of my parents after going into the program, and I still get the giggle fits thinking about it.
No, seriously. Giggle fits. My friends are like "Dude, you're fucking giggling", and I'm all like "What, no I'm not", and they go "You're thinking about when you killed your parents, aren't you?" and I go "yeah" and then they say it's giggle fits.
Oh well, I don't want a cure.
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You should help others deal with their issues... :wink:
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I killed both of my parents after going into the program, and I still get the giggle fits thinking about it.
No, we're still here.
and everyday is living hell. just finish us off, quickly. the guilt will otherwise.
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I dont know if this is a question for another forum but I am interested in what makes some parents run for the hills and others stay with it for years and sometimes multiple programs even when there is no evidence of it working.
I would imagine that if you were not well off and you committed a large sum of money to a program you would be reluctant to not at least give it an honest go for a few months. But to keep your kid in for more than a year when they are getting dropped down some levels I find more hard to fathom. So I can strongly see the cult argument
Ginger I recall you once saying your dad eventually came to see Straight and the seed differently to your mum. What do you think turned him around? afterall you were not the only kid in your family to go through this.
From what i've read (not that I'm an expert on your life ginger- me stranger) Ginger's parents are far out on the spectrum of "cult" involved parents.
The parents who leave their kids there a LONG time do so because they don't want anything to do with their kids, Putting your kid is a socially acceptable was of abandoning your children.
Other parents, straight out, want to PUNISH their kids, and keep them their for that reason. There is a spectrum of "evil" to program parents. They range from "decent parents" whose kids go voluntarily- the whole family is duped, (They sound great when they describe themselves) all the way to parents of adopted/ inherited (divorce) kids they couldn't care less about, or are actively interested in destroying
Remember, parents who are involved with these places, aren;t mentally fit
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do you think if parents are in the "arts" they are less likely to put their kids away?
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So I can strongly see the cult argument
Ginger I recall you once saying your dad eventually came to see Straight and the seed differently to your mum. What do you think turned him around? afterall you were not the only kid in your family to go through this.
Well, my dad was not so fully bought in as my mom was. And that's what makes me think of the ammunition for divorce angle. My conversation with my sil reminded me of that. The program stoked and stroked my mom's martyrdom wrt my dad. This was clear to me about the whole thing, even as a little kid. For a long time, he was banned from the house whenever my older brothers were home. He always had been ambivalent. He was scared shitless that pot smoking would lead to a whole generation of Manson family murders and such. But he also was skeptical of Art Barker, to whom he referred quite correctly as a "professional alcoholic" just like grandpa--his father in law. But then he also went so far as to take time out of his protest walk from Florida to DC to try and have me falsely arrested to 'save my life'.
I think distance had a lot to do with his coming around. My mom had actually talked him into remarrying her on the pretense that the divorce (which happened when I had been no older than 5 or 6) was the reason for my misbehavior. That lasted almost a month after I was out of the house. Without me to pick on she set right to work getting him a little more straight. That ended with a coffee cup lodged in the drywall of the kitchen and him speeding across state back to Pompano with a light bag and full head of steam. LOL I think she kept it there for a couple of months just to illustrate her suffering.
I beat him to Pompano and to our old family friend, who was his lover for the last 20 years or so of his life, by a couple of weeks. I think he just couldn't make the Program doom-saying jive with what he was seeing. I had my problems, no doubt. I was probably as tweaky and strange as any other recent program vet. But I worked, paid my bills, never had any serious legal trouble or in any way acted like the fictional latent junkie he had been promised I would be if I ever left the program.
My mother, on the other hand, had taken to it like a fish to water. She kept her house open as a program "foster home" (later to be called host homes due to the existance of a legal term of art to go with the term "foster home") and kept turning up at open meetings even after they quit sending her kids. I heard years later from a friend who had been on staff at the time that they actually had a staff meeting and delegated some poor shmoe to take her aside and tell her to just go away cause it was too weird how she kept hanging around.
After that, she took to supporting some charity to help pregnant teenagers. I thought that was a pretty good thing at the time, but I hadn't heard of the Bethel type teen 'maternity homes'. I don't know what happened to all that, but in later years she gave over the last of her cash (us kids' inheritence, in other words) to the Billy Graham Crusade. I think she was just beggin' ta crawl, as they say. She loved it.
I think that well explains characters like the Who. Sure, he's making money. But I bet he fully believes that he's investing himself body mind and soul in the most wholesome, good and worthwhile endevour ever imagined. Cults are like that.
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Wow. Something about the image of your mum hanging around at a rehab meeting when none of her loved ones are actually being "treated" anymore makes me feel a little sad. It is like she wanted an addiction all of her own. This mentality reminds me of that mental illness where people make their kids ill just to take care of them Meunchhousens or something.
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Guest wrote:
do you think if parents are in the "arts" they are less likely to put their kids away?
Not sure where these questions are coming from. People here have described all sorts of professions, ages, religions, and family circumstances. I gather that program parents represent a cross-section of society. But perhaps you are trying to ask what do they have in common? What is the difference between the parents who do send their "troubled teen" (god, I hate that term) to a program, and those who do not? Is that what you are trying to learn?
Auntie Em
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Guest wrote:
do you think if parents are in the "arts" they are less likely to put their kids away?
Not sure where these questions are coming from. People here have described all sorts of professions, ages, religions, and family circumstances. I gather that program parents represent a cross-section of society. But perhaps you are trying to ask what do they have in common? What is the difference between the parents who do send their "troubled teen" (god, I hate that term) to a program, and those who do not? Is that what you are trying to learn?
Auntie Em
I think that is where we see the whole cult aspect of some of these places... wanting to be part of a group maybe.
Places like straight are definitely different than than many of the other schools/TBS's. After reading through this thread I have to wonder if we broke the question down into another sub-set and looked at what the parents have in common that send their children to cult-like places (straight) and those that send their children away to Therapeutic Boarding Schools. Would we see a common link or trait in economic standing, education, releigion etc. within these groupings? Interesting thought.
...
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all programs are cult-like!
not just straight!
thats because ALL programs are BASED on straight in some way or another. Thewho, if you want people to belive you, define cult. then bring me a program that does not fit any of the definitions. you will be shit out of luck.
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do you think if parents are in the "arts" they are less likely to put their kids away?
No, as some programs pander more toward them...
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http://www.rickross.com/faq.html[/url]
http://www.ex-cult.org/General/lifton-criteria (http://www.ex-cult.org/General/lifton-criteria)
http://www.ex-cult.org/General/singer-conditions (http://www.ex-cult.org/General/singer-conditions)
http://www.ex-cult.org/bite.html (http://www.ex-cult.org/bite.html)
http://www.ex-cult.org/General/totalism-group-dynamics (http://www.ex-cult.org/General/totalism-group-dynamics)
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What I was trying to point out or suggest is we could look at the differences between a straight like programs, Seed, CEDU and the traditional programs of today (TBS)…. (some are more cult like than others) and take a look at the parents that send their kids to Straight, seed, CEDU vs the parents that send their kids to TBS of today and see if there are any differences.
If you see them all as a cult, then that is okay, but maybe there are differences (distinct subsets) within this set.
...
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What I was trying to point out or suggest is we could look at the differences between a straight like programs, Seed, CEDU and the traditional programs of today (TBS)…. (some are more cult like than others) and take a look at the parents that send their kids to Straight, seed, CEDU vs the parents that send their kids to TBS of today and see if there are any differences.
If you see them all as a cult, then that is okay, but maybe there are differences (distinct subsets) within this set.
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Look no further than the mirror, jackass. ASR is a CEDU spinoff. Geez.
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What I was trying to point out or suggest is we could look at the differences between a straight like programs, Seed, CEDU and the traditional programs of today (TBS)…. (some are more cult like than others) and take a look at the parents that send their kids to Straight, seed, CEDU vs the parents that send their kids to TBS of today and see if there are any differences.
If you see them all as a cult, then that is okay, but maybe there are differences (distinct subsets) within this set.
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Look no further than the mirror, jackass. ASR is a CEDU spinoff. Geez.
Wow, and some people complain if I disrespect survivor, go figure.
Let me try to break it down for you then. There is an industry called the transportation industry and they all transport people and things i.e. cars, trains, boats, planes etc. a subset of the transportation industry is the Automotive industry. Within this industry there are minivans, pickup trucks, sedans, sports cars etc…. each one of these is designed to attract a different type of person. For example a mini van may attract more people with kids where as a sports car would attract a single person.
The original post was asking program parents questions like what they did for a living etc. and we saw that they pretty much ran the full spectrum and had very little in common with the exception of having a child getting help outside the home .
If we took the same questions and asked what type of program they went to we may start seeing dispersity or something in common with the parents within subsets.
Seed, CEDU, Straight
Boot camp
Juvenile detention center
Wilderness
Therapeutic Boarding schools
And maybe there are distinctions even within those categories. I am not arguing the whole cult thing.. I had a friend growing up who could convince you almost every group was a cult…if a family had more than 1 reunion a year he would consider it a cult!!!
...
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Good God Who ......... Why are you trying to compare the "Transportation Industry" to the "Troubled Teen Industry"
That's comparing apples to oranges..... It's not the same thing.
There is no amount of your justification on your part will ever change the fact that all "Programs" are screwed up.
You have not got to see the later in life side effects on even your own daughter of being tucked away for storage in one of these shit pits. Sometimes the brainwashing don't come to light until years down the road, however on fact remains true amongst all survivors .... It does happen and when it does it comes out ugly and sideways. Then you have to actually deal with it the rest of your life.
Even God don't give penance or forgiveness for that sin.
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I wonder if this back-and-forth with TheWho will ever end.
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Good God Who ......... Why are you trying to compare the "Transportation Industry" to the "Troubled Teen Industry"
That's comparing apples to oranges..... It's not the same thing.
There is no amount of your justification on your part will ever change the fact that all "Programs" are screwed up.
You have not got to see the later in life side effects on even your own daughter of being tucked away for storage in one of these shit pits. Sometimes the brainwashing don't come to light until years down the road, however on fact remains true amongst all survivors .... It does happen and when it does it comes out ugly and sideways. Then you have to actually deal with it the rest of your life.
Even God don't give penance or forgiveness for that sin.
Ha,Ha,Ha, It becomes very clear why nothing is organized here. You missed the entire point, Botched (or you were thinking of a different thread, I have done that dont feel bad). Read the original post and then read my last post. We are not talking about brainwashing, shortterm, longterm effects. We were taking a look at the program parents and what they had in common (if anything). The car analogy is intended as an example of how an industry can be categorized to better view the industry as a whole, we are not trying to compare the kids to cars, but trying to apply a categorization to the Troubled teen industry which may help break down some common traits among program parents. This may give us better insight as to what types of parents send their kids to the various programs.
...
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I wonder if this back-and-forth with TheWho will ever end.
I am really beginning to doubt it. :roll:
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No.... You just want to side track everyone and try to push your own beliefs on people, and or sway a parents decision so it will put another dollar in your pocket.
The only thing that most of the parents have in common is having the financial ability to pay the tuition and/or because the salesmans song and dance he puts on for the parents.
Hell program salesmen are worse than a used car salesman that sells you a car knowing that your are getting a lemon.
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I am really beginning to doubt it.
Beginning to? You must be new here...lol.
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I am really beginning to doubt it.
Beginning to? You must be new here...lol.
nope, just being sarcastic. 8-)
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No.... You just want to side track everyone and try to push your own beliefs on people, and or sway a parents decision so it will put another dollar in your pocket.
The only thing that most of the parents have in common is having the financial ability to pay the tuition and/or because the salesmans song and dance he puts on for the parents.
Hell program salesmen are worse than a used car salesman that sells you a car knowing that your are getting a lemon.
If you read through the posts you will see that economic position was not one of the things the parents had in common. Their ability to pay ranged from virtually nil to extremely wealthy. I think what the op was searching for was a commonality of some type like religious/ non religious...economic position.. large/small families etc. and nothing surfaced on the first pass thru... I was proposing to change the criteria a little to take a second look, that’s all.
...
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I am really beginning to doubt it.
Beginning to? You must be new here...lol.
nope, just being sarcastic. 8-)
Right... yes, when pigs fly..
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Damn those flying pigs...(http://http://www.jeboavatars.com//images/avatars/4160793064pigh%205.jpg)
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No.... You just want to side track everyone and try to push your own beliefs on people, and or sway a parents decision so it will put another dollar in your pocket.
"the salesmans song and dance he puts on for the parents"[/color]
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No.... You just want to side track everyone and try to push your own beliefs on people, and or sway a parents decision so it will put another dollar in your pocket.
"the salesmans song and dance he puts on for the parents"[/color]
I would have left that in, but it wasnt clear looking at all the posts what percentage went thru an EDCon. It is hard to say who got the song and dance and who didnt so we cant be sure they had this in common. If we did a second pass we could try to capture this information.
...
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All programs salesmen put on the Song and Dance.
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All programs salesmen put on the Song and Dance.
If you are talking about EdCons then we dont know what percentage of the parents utilized them and therefore there is no way of telling if they all had this in common.
If you mean the schools themselves then this could be true or not. Although all schools have a song and dance and occasionally put on a dog and pony show for a group of parents (like any other school). One of the questions we could ask is if the school effected their choice by the tour or sales pitch done by a schools agent. In some cases parents all ready have their minds made up before talking to a specific school by talking to local therapists or familys they had met.
I think it would be important to differentiate between the three.....(sales pitch by EdCon, by school or made up mind on their own)
I believe we would find that the majority of parents who placed their child in a TBS utilized an EdCon.
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Ha,Ha,Ha, It becomes very clear why nothing is organized here.
First, when you see him post the "ha, ha, ha"s, you know you're getting to him.
Second, Who.....there IS no organization here. There never was intended to be any. This is a place where people hang out and talk. It began as a place for survivors to hang out and talk, but all POV are allowed. Since it IS first and foremost a survivors forum pro-program people will get a fair ration of shit for pushing their particularly slick propaganda here, but at least you can still post. Try that in any forum run by program people. Dissent is NOT tolerated.....AT ALL.
Quit trying to turn this into something that it isn't and was never intended to be. It is what it is.
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First, when you see him post the "ha, ha, ha"s, you know you're getting to him.
Oh, no, I cant laugh anymore without people thinking I am really upset. This is upsetting
Second, Who.....there IS no organization here. There never was intended to be any.
That was what I was pointing out. That’s why organized data is so hard for most people here to swallow. It would be nice to change this. Maybe show people the power of statistics and organized facts.
This is a place where people hang out and talk. It began as a place for survivors to hang out and talk, but all POV are allowed. Since it IS first and foremost a survivors forum pro-program people will get a fair ration of shit for pushing their particularly slick propaganda here, but at least you can still post. Try that in any forum run by program people. Dissent is NOT tolerated.....AT ALL.
Quit trying to turn this into something that it isn't and was never intended to be. It is what it is.
Yes, we know, Anne, and Blacks use to have to sit at the back of the bus, “we were hear first so the rest of you have to respect usâ€
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:roll:
Bite my ass you pompous piece of shit. I EARNED my right to be here.
::both:: ::fuckoff:: ::both:: ::fuckoff::
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:roll:
Bite my ass you pompous piece of shit. I EARNED my right to be here.
::both:: ::fuckoff:: ::both:: ::fuckoff::
We all did Anne, that is my point. Each of us come here from different schools, different points of view, some pro program some anti program, some kids some adults... everyone is welcome, we have all been touched by the struggling teen industry.
...
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We all did Anne, that is my point. Each of us come here from different schools, different points of view, some pro program some anti program, some kids some adults... everyone is welcome, we have all been touched by the struggling teen industry.
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Wrong. You have zero personal experience.
:roll:
Bite my ass you pompous piece of shit. I EARNED my right to be here.
::both:: ::fuckoff:: ::both:: ::fuckoff::
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We all did Anne, that is my point. Each of us come here from different schools, different points of view, some pro program some anti program, some kids some adults... everyone is welcome, we have all been touched by the struggling teen industry.
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Wrong. You have zero personal experience.
:roll:
Bite my ass you pompous piece of shit. I EARNED my right to be here.
::both:: ::fuckoff:: ::both:: ::fuckoff::
You have zero experience with Therapeutic Boarding schools, but we still allow you to post about them.
...
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You have zero experience with Therapeutic Boarding schools, but we still allow you to post about them.
Wrong.
And there you go with that "we" again. "You" don't allow dick.
:roll:
Bite my ass you pompous piece of shit. I EARNED my right to be here.
::both:: ::fuckoff:: ::both:: ::fuckoff::
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That was what I was pointing out. That’s why organized data is so hard for most people here to swallow. It would be nice to change this.[/color] Maybe show people the power of statistics and organized facts.
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So your'e trying to change the world.......... "World Domination"
Hitler once tried to change the world as well.
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Anne, why cant you just get along with others? We tolerate your crap and you can post all the profanity you choose.. be happy!!
...
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:roll:
Bite my ass you pompous piece of shit.
::both:: ::fuckoff:: ::both:: ::fuckoff::
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Now, now... can't we all just get along? ::bwahaha::
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Anne, why cant you just get along with others? We [/color]tolerate your crap and you can post all the profanity you choose.. be happy!!
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Who is this "We"[/color] that you keep referring to????? Some of the other industry shills that you represent or the mouse in your pocket because "You are definitely not one of us."[/color] We are program survivors, you are an industry shill only here to do damage control for your beloved industry.
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Now, now... can't we all just get along? :lol:
:roll:
Bite my ass you pompous ....
Oh. Wait.
:wink: ::seg::
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Bad Brains Hired Gun fucking rocks - listen to it. It's the last 3 minutes of the 9 minute video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGBCjLqk6Cw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGBCjLqk6Cw)
Hired gun
Hired gun for sale
Hired gun, on the run
He won't fail
Requesting quick, they asked the people
Where's the hired gunman's trail?
He turned into a dark, cold corner
His is the face that is so pale
Hired gun
He's on the run
He has no fun, no
Please sit down, services rendered
Now we must decide the pay
Bargains to bribes, broken agreement
So much more had but to pray
Next a scam to execute, but a bit too cute
So if you're looking for adventure
Go check the hired gun for sale
Hired gun
He's on the run
Better watch out, boy
'cause he don't know fun
Hired gun for sale
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Who works for bain capital.
Bain capital owns crc health, which owns Aspen Education.
http://www.smartbrief.com/news/sifma/in ... 462122323D (http://www.smartbrief.com/news/sifma/industryBW-detail.jsp?id=D32449B9-FF86-446E-96DF-88462122323D)
Guess who built bain from the ground up?
Mitt Romney
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/04/us/po ... 4bain.html (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/04/us/politics/04bain.html)
Guess who's on the board of directors, currently?
Rick Sanitorum. Also, Bain donates huge amounts of money to just about every repub official there is, including GW. These connections, and ones like it are the reasons that programs continue to abduct and torture humans
Guess, where bain capital is located?
Bain Capital LLC/Private Equity Inv 5,000 11/14/2006 Newton MA
http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:0ag ... cd=4&gl=us (http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:0agGnQIXITAJ:www.campaignmoney.com/political/committees/commonwealth_pac_the.asp%3Fcycle%3D06+%22bain+capital%22+santorum&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=us)
Mass, i know, is where thewho posts from, for a long time, at least. From Newton, even, i beleive. Didn't he hint as much?
Banning is good, but there are better, more productive ways to approach him
If you want to stop the who, hurting people, and better yet, his bosses mention bain capital every time you see him.
If you want to really go big foward the info about bain capital and romney to his political opponents!!!!!
just post this every time the who shows, then ignore him. This way you bring attention to his bosses, the evil child torturers BAIN CAPITAL
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Anne, why cant you just get along with others? We [/color]tolerate your crap and you can post all the profanity you choose.. be happy!!
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Who is this "We"[/color] that you keep referring to????? Some of the other industry shills that you represent or the mouse in your pocket because "You are definitely not one of us."[/color] We are program survivors, you are an industry shill only here to do damage control for your beloved industry.
Actually when I refer to we I mean the people who are interested in helping the kids. I am not here for myself moaning and groaning like you are. I am here to sort out where the problem areas are and to steer parents away from them. You would be amazed at the difference that I have made utilizing the information I have gotten from fornits.
Most of you could care less whether the kids land in a crappy school or a good one... you are only focused on yourself getting revenge against your parents or the school you attended…. You should suck it up and leave it in the past and maybe do something good for the next round of kids passing thru.
So until such time as you can demonstrate that you are doing something positive to help others “You will not be one of usâ€
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Who works for bain capital.
Bain capital owns crc health, which owns Aspen Education.
http://www.smartbrief.com/news/sifma/in ... 462122323D (http://www.smartbrief.com/news/sifma/industryBW-detail.jsp?id=D32449B9-FF86-446E-96DF-88462122323D)
Guess who built bain from the ground up?
Mitt Romney
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/04/us/po ... 4bain.html (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/04/us/politics/04bain.html)
Guess who's on the board of directors, currently?
Rick Sanitorum. Also, Bain donates huge amounts of money to just about every repub official there is, including GW. These connections, and ones like it are the reasons that programs continue to abduct and torture humans
Guess, where bain capital is located?
Bain Capital LLC/Private Equity Inv 5,000 11/14/2006 Newton MA
http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:0ag ... cd=4&gl=us (http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:0agGnQIXITAJ:www.campaignmoney.com/political/committees/commonwealth_pac_the.asp%3Fcycle%3D06+%22bain+capital%22+santorum&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=us)
Mass, i know, is where thewho posts from, for a long time, at least. From Newton, even, i beleive. Didn't he hint as much?
Banning is good, but there are better, more productive ways to approach him
If you want to stop the who, hurting people, and better yet, his bosses mention bain capital every time you see him.
If you want to really go big foward the info about bain capital and romney to his political opponents!!!!
just post this every time the who shows, then ignore him. This way you bring attention to his bosses, the evil child torturers BAIN CAPITAL[/b
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viewtopic.php?f=9&t=24420&p=301295 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=24420&p=301295)
Ha,Ha,Ha, Fornits brings out the best in people, thats for sure. You gotta love this place. great post. You must be the same guy who posted above and who posted the typhoon/Duct tape post.
Good job, you are too funny!!
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This is the video on the front page of cafety,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dr47O5OjC_A (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dr47O5OjC_A)
"Typical restraint procedures were wrapping kids up in duct tape and blankets"
-2:20-2:23 in the video timeline
This is the sort of thing TheWho finds 'too funny'. Sickening.